Episode 422 - Nic McKinley - From the CIA to Hunting Human Traffickers

Summary

Cleared Hot Podcast – Episode 422: Nic McKinley – From the CIA to Hunting Human Traffickers

Date: December 29, 2025
Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: Nic McKinley (Founder, DeliverFund; former CIA & USAF PJ)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Andy Stumpf sits down with Nic McKinley to discuss the rapidly worsening landscape of human trafficking, especially concerning child exploitation in America. The conversation ranges from Nic’s intelligence and special operations background to the emergence of sophisticated digital threats to children, failures of government and law enforcement, predator-rich online platforms like Roblox, solutions DeliverFund is pioneering, and what parents and society can do to fight back. The tone is direct, occasionally darkly humorous, unflinchingly critical of institutions, and deeply urgent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of Child Trafficking: Worsening at Scale

[00:23]–[01:14]

• Andy opens by asking if things have gotten better or worse since their last discussion.
• Nic unequivocally says it’s “significantly worse” on the child exploitation front.
• The conversation quickly veers into both their backgrounds with government agencies, touching on bureaucratic absurdities and the frustrations of working with institutional incompetence.

“The child exploitation side of things? Significantly worse.” — Nic [00:36]

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2. Government, Institutional Trust, and Cultural Decay

[05:14]–[17:25]

• The Epstein case is discussed as emblematic of systemic failures, coverups, and the erosion of public trust in government.
• Nic surmises that Epstein was "95% probability... an intelligence asset" [09:18], but points out that even transparency was weaponized for political gain with highly redacted, insubstantial releases.

"I honestly believe that the American populace... would be even more proud if they understood the circumstances under which [the intelligence community] got [things] done." — Nic [04:49]

• There is reflection on destructive political tribalism, cognitive dissonance, and politicians self-preserving instead of serving—paralleling how systems evade responsibility in human trafficking cases.

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3. Societal Weakness & Accountability—Broken Windows, Parenting, and Victimhood

[26:08]–[36:01]

• The “broken windows theory” is related to both policing and parenting: enforce the small things early so bigger issues don’t arise.
• The hosts share personal parenting struggles as analogies for discipline, consequence, and societal accountability.

“It's the broken windows theory just applied to parenting. You start at the smallest possible issue and you build on top of that.” — Andy [27:27]

• Nic insists that society's refusal to enforce consequences has enabled the growth in crime: “We don’t have consequences in society that, that cause focus.” [36:01]

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4. How Trafficking Has Evolved: A Game of Scale, Tech, and Anonymity

[50:57]–[61:59]

• DeliverFund’s transition from tactical focus to intelligence-driven operations:
  • Embedded analysts and massive, AI-driven data sharing with 1200+ law enforcement agencies.
  • Key stats from the past five years: 3,751 intelligence reports; 314 traffickers arrested; 821 adult victims and 435 minors freed, with large underreporting due to law enforcement communication gaps.
  • “We’re the nerds now,” Nic jokes, underscoring the shift from direct action to data.

“It is disrespectful for former SOF and intelligence personnel to go to law enforcement and say, ‘Alright, cops, let us show you how to do this job.’” — Nic [52:44]

• Emphasis that anonymity on the Internet (not privacy) is the chief enabler of modern trafficking: “Anonymity on the Internet has made it so that a 40 year old man can pretend to be a 16 year old boy and start contacting a 14 year old girl...” [59:54]

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5. Failings of Law, Prosecution, and Power

[67:48]–[70:35]

• Only ~10% of viable trafficker identifications result in arrest; most DA’s don't understand trafficking cases.
• Law is too complex for most local prosecutors to navigate, making rural America especially vulnerable.
• Nic calls for AI-driven “AI prosecutors” as guidance for these legal bottlenecks, and rails against legal complexity as job security for lawyers.

“Why are laws so complicated that a prosecutor has to be a specialist in a certain type of prosecution?” — Nic [69:17]

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6. The 10 Hurdles of Illicit Trafficking: Economic Disruption is Key

[74:13]–[78:28]; [158:12]–[158:32]

• Nic explains that the trafficking trade, like any illicit commodity market, depends on clearing sequential “hurdles” (communication, transport, payment, etc.).
  • Law enforcement at the end alone stops just ~5% at best!
  • If even one in five hurdles becomes a 20% effective barrier, the chance of trafficker success mathematically flips from 95% to just 3.7%.

“If you just make it 20% effective, cumulative mathematics works that in. That trafficker ends up with a 96.3% chance of getting caught.” — Nic [77:19]

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7. Predator Platforms: Roblox, Discord, Minecraft & the 764 Cult

Roblox: “Irrecoverable” Platform

[79:02]–[147:07]

• The 764 Group: A “satanic cult group” weaponizing Roblox, Minecraft, and Discord to recruit and groom children for extreme acts—including self-harm, animal harm, and even homicide—eventually selling victims to other predators. [84:50–95:30].
• Nic singles out Roblox as “irrecoverable” for child safety:
  • Unmoderated game publishing, no meaningful safeguards for users, and CEO David Baszucki's wild statements about “predators as an opportunity” and not ruling out nudity in the future.
  • Multiple state attorneys general have filed civil and potential criminal cases against Roblox.
  • Internal financial and incentive structures prevent meaningful change: “Their business model [relies on not] allowing moderation of the games before they get published. That would create this huge backlog... cut into their profits.” [126:18]

“If you hold [Roblox] stock and you don't get rid of this stock after hearing this, you are part of the problem.” — Nic [108:05]

• The “condo games” & simulated school shootings, strip shows, and more disturbing content—published by anyone, visible to kids, fueling an unprecedented child predator ecosystem.

Minecraft & Discord

• Similar risks, but Minecraft is "trying" and possibly recoverable. Discord is deeply problematic as the comms layer connecting predators/kids.

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8. Brand Army: "OnlyFans for Young Teens"

[138:15]–[140:09]

• “Brand Army is an OnlyFans for young teens. Now they don't allow pornography... but they do allow bikini shots of 12 year olds and parents are signing their kids up.” — Nic [139:33]
• A stark warning about parental complicity and the normalization of sexualizing children for profit.

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9. Hope: Technology as Both Cause and Cure

[154:51]–[169:25]

• Despite the bleakness, Nic is hopeful: AI and aggregated, machine-speed intelligence is closing the gap, making trafficking less profitable and riskier every day in counties where sustained efforts happen.
• “Where we get more and more of this intelligence integrated... as companies and law enforcement actually use the data... we're going to start to see a real disruption.”

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10. What Can You Do? Action Steps for Parents, Citizens, and Investors

Practical, Immediately Actionable:

• Get your kids off Roblox (and Discord); spread the word to other parents [148:54]
• Realize your economic participation feeds the problem (in-game purchases, stock holdings).
• Where possible, boycott platforms until they’re forced to change.
  • “Tell all your friends. Deleting Roblox off your phone should be the new virtue signal.” — Nic [168:00]

Support DeliverFund

• 100% donor-funded, rapid scaling, embraces AI/tech, employs ex-intel/LEO.
• “Don't underestimate $50/month going to DeliverFund in what we do because that's literally what keeps the servers running.” — Nic [170:14]
• [deliverfund.org → Donate button]
• Social: @deliverfund, @the.nick.mckinley

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Internet Anonymity:

  “Anonymity on the Internet is the biggest problem, not privacy... If the price of you being anonymous is that children are being raped, being exploited—sorry, that's a price I'm not willing to pay.” — Nic [72:00, 103:13]

• On Roblox's Leadership:

  “We think of [the] predator problem, not necessarily just as a problem, but as an opportunity as well.” — David Baszucki, quoted by Nic [116:01]
  “If you hold this stock and you don't get rid of this stock after hearing this, you are part of the problem.” — Nic [108:05]

• On Agency:

  “Don't wait for somebody else to do something about something that you now know about.” — Andy [168:00]

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Timestamps for Core Segments

• State of Child Trafficking Today: [00:23]–[01:14], [50:53]–[61:59]
• Institutional Trust, Government, and Law: [05:14]–[17:25], [67:48]–[70:35]
• Societal/Parent Responsibility & Accountability: [26:08]–[36:01], [154:12]–[155:58]
• Internet, Tech, and Anonymity: [41:03], [72:00], [103:13]
• DeliverFund Impact & Methods: [48:49]–[61:59], [169:25]–[170:21]
• Platforms as Predator Havens (Roblox focus): [79:02]–[147:07]
• Action Steps and Hope: [167:45]–[172:00]

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a clarion call for vigilance and collective action. Nic McKinley’s expertise and urgency, coupled with Andy’s candor and parental perspective, offer both sobering insight and an actionable path. Technology has enabled unprecedented predation on children, but, as Nic emphasizes, it can also—and must—be harnessed to defeat it, provided individuals and institutions have the courage to act.

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For more info or to support anti-trafficking efforts:

• DeliverFund.org
• Follow: @deliverfund | @the.nick.mckinley

"Deleting Roblox off your phone should be the new virtue signal." — Nic McKinley [168:00]

Transcript

[A]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north to south. West of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. Give it to me. I mean it. Let me ask you this though. Is it getting better or worse in the three years that we've known each other?

[B]

When you say it's, what do you mean? So the trafficking situation that I originally set out to fight.

[A]

Yeah, okay. Like all aspects of it, are you guys not okay.

[B]

The child exploitation side of things? Significantly worse.

[A]

Why.

[B]

We'Re going to get into that.

[A]

Before we do, I find it fascinating that somebody who worked for the Central Intelligence Agency can't remember where the podcast studio is. Can you explain that?

[B]

Well, you told me to meet you at the coffee shop.

[A]

Yeah, but then you asked me, where's the studio?

[B]

Well, you said me to the coffee shop.

[A]

So then why'd you ask where the studio?

[B]

Because I figured you were smart enough to build a, you know, a studio at your coffee shop.

[A]

No, it wouldn't be multiple locations. Think about the non smart level of that. I would never escape. Plus, we've met many times in this building. Yes, it's a different room, but.

[B]

Yeah, I just figured you had a new studio.

[A]

Well, well, technically, sounds. Same building. Same building. I'm just saying, when I have worries about the CIA.

[B]

Oh, dude, you said lots of worries about. All right, so first of all, you.

[A]

Yeah, we got shit to talk about.

[B]

You did a decent amount of work with the CIA. So like, you know, allegedly. Allegedly. So you know better than to be worried. Like, you. You have reasons to be worried.

[A]

I had. You know what, though? It's. It's with every agency Alphabet soup and not. I had great experiences and I had ones where I was wondering how people got their job in the first place. But holistic competence depends on, I mean, the. Shall we say, targeting. Human singing. Very nice. But that's.

[B]

That's the only parts that you saw.

[A]

College graduates who were giving me tactical advice because of their bachelor's degree.

[B]

Hey, they went through the foreign man.

[A]

Not as awesome. Recommending that we seize the low ground and fight up. I'm like, whoa, really? Yes.

[B]

Okay, that's that.

[A]

Actually, I will not put too many details in other than to say it was brought up in a meeting. It wasn't a briefing yet. A meeting I think you guys should look at going in right there. And you're familiar with the topography of Afghanistan? Yeah, it was one of the lowest spots and we'll call it 15 grid squares and.

[B]

Well, maybe they Just thought that, you know, hey, if you, if you do something that stupid, people are going to think that you surely are.

[A]

If you go so far out of the box that no reasonable person who has any understanding of tactics would think that you would do that. Perhaps.

[B]

I don't, I don't think the public understands the level of micromanagement that happens. I, I routinely use this example of, I was on a VTC briefing and operation in a North African country where there was a very big problem that happened. Right. And there may or may not have been a book in a movie written about that stuff that happened in that North African country. So, and briefing an extremely important person on the other side of this vtc. And one of the National Security Council people pipes in and says and wants to know why I've got a sniper positioned here and not here. I'm like, well, it's because there's this massive tree right there, and so the sniper would be able to see nothing but leaves. Oh, okay.

[A]

Movie where you can curve the bullet. You got to whip.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Wanted.

[B]

And then they, then they asked, well, what kind of footwear are people on your team wearing? And I thought it was like, a humorous recovery from the really stupid question that they asked previous about the sniper placement. No, they were serious. And I was like, well, I mean, depends on who you're talking about. Like, the snipers tend to kind of wear, like, climbing approach shoes. The QRF dudes, I promise, are all in boots. The assault team is probably wearing, like, Vans skate shoes or something like that. And, well, are you sure that's the, that's the proper footwear for the, you know, for the environment? And I was like, ma', am, why would they, they like to wear those? Because they don't pick up rocks, so they don't make noise when they transition to a hard, to a hard floor. And, and she's like, oh, okay, well, I, I, I guess that makes sense.

[A]

Why does she care? Is the biggest.

[B]

Because you have so many people who are just trying to figure out questions to ask so they can look smart.

[A]

Oh, they want their, they need a little bit of FaceTime on the VTC so they can, people can see they have their input.

[B]

Exactly. And, and I use, I use that example all the time with civilians. Like, you have no idea. I honestly believe that the American populace would be extremely proud if they knew the things that their special operations and intelligence community had, had, had done. I think they would be even more proud if they understood the circumstances with, under which they got them done.

[A]

Indeed.

[B]

I mean, we were successful in spite of our. Our superiors and our higher ups. Right.

[A]

Nonlinear problem solving.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Speaking of the government, did you flip through the Epstein release documents of which you could read maybe a sentence per page? You want to talk about people losing faith in the government, and I. I can't point to a single reason as to why maybe they would be losing faith. What are your thoughts, sir? You work in this? Well, I guess. Well, hold on. Was. Was Epstein. Because you obviously work in the trafficking world. He was. What was he convicted of?

[B]

So he was. He was.

[A]

Well, because I want to make sure I use the correct terms. He was convicted.

[B]

He was convicted of a number of crimes. Most of them were around the exploitation of people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I forget the actual legal.

[A]

Michael, you look it up.

[B]

Legal terms.

[A]

Because I really want to say he was human trafficker, but I don't want to be wrong. How dope was his prison sentence, though, where he would go to jail or he would leave jail? Oh, yeah, you're talking about that time in Florida. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So, no, I believe that was.

[A]

We didn't make it to trial the second.

[B]

No, that was. Was that.

[A]

What's up, everybody? You might ask yourself. Interesting green screen behind me. Well, it's not a green screen. I'm not in the studio because I did ad reads out of order. And I realized that today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company, not the other brand that I did the ad for. And I've already left the studio for the holidays. But that's okay. I don't need to be in the studio to do this one because you guys know what Montana Knife Company is about. Their knives made here in Montana, French Town, which I'm much closer to right now, but Josh doesn't know where I am. This is like a undisclosed location. That's Javelin. He's barking at things because he's a total dick. Anyway, leading up to the holidays, I was telling you to think ahead. Get the drops, which come on Thursdays and Saturdays. You can sign up for the text or the email. They drop them both ways. Sometimes they have stuff in stock, sometimes they don't. Gift cards are also great if you have a last minute gift that you need to get somebody. Bottom line is this. Go to montanaknifecompany.com and see what they have to offer. Join the mailing list. You're going to be kept up to date about what they have going on. They're getting ready to move into their new facility just outside of Missoula. Where you're going to be able to see how they make the knives. They're going to have a black rifle, coffee out front. It's going to be an amazing experience. Lee and I will be there for the grand opening. But it's just an awesome brand founded by Josh, who's a good friend of mine. The youngest master bladesmith ever. Bringing jobs back to Montana. Working on increasing manufacturing capacity in Montana and in the United States. Vertically integrating. It's fantastic. Montanaknifecompany.com Go check them out. Grab something for yourself. You've been shopping for other people. Now it's time to get yourself. I would recommend a steak knife set. Back to the show.

[B]

It involved minors. I want to say it was like commercial exploitation of minors.

[A]

Sex trafficking of minors. Yeah. Okay. But he didn't make it to this.

[B]

What was the, what was the actual charge that they used? A lot of times sex trafficking gets thrown around.

[A]

Commit sex trafficking of minors. Charged with conspiracy.

[B]

So. So it was a conspiracy.

[A]

0205 I've seen sexually played, abused dozens of underage girls by enticing them engage in sex acts with him in exchange for money. Yeah.

[B]

Cuz there's a, there's a difference between sex trafficking. 8. What is it? 1859. I can't remember that off the top of my head. The US code. But then there's. There's the conspiracy to commit, which is essentially that, that, that is, that's like pimping is a, is a good way to think about it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which means that. So if it's conspiracy to commit, that means that he most, they most likely were saying, okay, well we, we think that you were doing this not just for your own pleasure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You were doing this specifically to make money.

[A]

All I know is when he was in jail in Florida, he left during the day and he would come to his sleep.

[B]

Left during the day to go to work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Come back and do a sleepover.

[B]

Yeah. And how many of those did he actually do?

[A]

How many of those would you and I be allowed to do if the roles were reversed and it was just Nick and we would.

[B]

Yeah. Never, never be allowed to leave in the first place.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

So I mean, I think everybody understands at this point, Epstein. And I mean, I'll say this relatively definitively, Epstein. 95% probability was an intelligence asset.

[A]

You're saying that because you are a representative of the CIA. Correct.

[B]

Not anymore. That's why I can say it.

[A]

Come out on record. Let's. Whether you can or can't. Let's Speak for the agency. You, of course, because I had no direct ties.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. None. None whatsoever. So I think, obviously.

[A]

What do you think of the release of this? You know, one of the. When I hear people talk about losing faith in our government and our institutions, there's so many examples that you can point at. Sure. It's almost at the point as if they are trying to do things to make people lose faith in it. One of the things that Trump ran on was transparency and releasing this list. And then to go afterwards. Are you guys still talking about Epstein this. And again, this is another thing I don't understand. I don't understand why people can't be critical of not only another human being, but a party and still support other aspects of what they have going on.

[B]

I feel like we just lost all critical thinking because now, like, we're no longer, like. Personally, my politics obviously tend to be relatively conservative. Right. I mean, as a. As a Christian, somebody who thinks that, you know, government isn't. Isn't necessarily a good thing, it's pretty easy to. To see what. What camp I fall on. But my politics are policy by policy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's great things that the blue side does. There's great things that the red side does. It just tends to be that I happen to agree with more than happens on the red side.

[A]

But we're not in that world anymore, man.

[B]

No, like, at this point, we're taking super bowl teams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. I mean, it's just like, well, what team are you picking? And I'm picking this one. And. And it. It's this. It's tribalism is what has happened. And so I think that the reason why you've got people who are so upset if you call out, you know, essentially, you know, their God is because. How do I say this? It's because their personal identity is now wrapped up in being a member of that tribe. It's no longer about the red, white and blue. It's no longer about the Constitution of the United States. It's no longer about these. These core fundamental issues that make America what it is. It's about, well, you know, this. This is my guy. And if you say anything bad about my guy, then you're saying something bad about me. And so it's linearly predictable that that's where they're going to go, is they're going to get upset.

[A]

I don't understand the word cognitive dissonance that much, but I feel like what you're talking about falls.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It will ultimately It's. It's. It's a whole lot of. Of, I believe, just intellectual dishonesty.

[A]

I was gonna say laziness. I was actually gonna say intellectual laziness.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because it saves you time, I guess, when you view it like you're talking about super bowl teams. Yeah, it should be red, white, and blue, but it's just red or blue. Using the, you know, the political spectrum. But I'm sitting here watching a guy campaign on this, which I'm all about, by the way. I. You will not find somebody who is more pro. Protect the victims. Like, of course.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Protect the victims.

[B]

Protect.

[A]

But how about we pull the abusers out into the public square and shame them? Mock them.

[B]

Potato peeler.

[A]

Well, I was gonna say light them on fire, but the potato peeler could be involved in there somewhere. I'm totally open for that. And honestly, I've had to give up the potato peeler idea because nobody's gonna let me do it anyway, because then I'd end up in jail, and I'm not gonna get to leave Monday through Friday and come back and spend nights.

[B]

Oh, that's not true, man. Just a shape charge placed in the proper location, and we can create an asset.

[A]

This isn't Iron man, all right? Where was the fake potat. They switched out a guy in the cell. I can't. I can't believe that people are tolerating what to me looks like nonsense. He went from running on it to are you guys still talking about this? To fine and just completely, like 100 page documents redacted where there's a few sentences. Yeah, there's.

[B]

There's not. There's nothing of substance. And I think I. But.

[A]

Well, I think there is plenty of substance. It's just underneath those black lines, but.

[B]

That'S predictable that it happened.

[A]

So what's under those black lines?

[B]

I think what's under those black lines.

[A]

Is.

[B]

Information that is so damning that, though. Well, I. I think the information is so damning it would destroy our economy, because I think you're talking about our country, the titans of industry. Well, this is really. So this is where I think things get extremely complicated. Right? So as an example, we are the largest and best. Right? And I like to say all the time, it's not that we're that good. It's that everybody else is, like, really that bad.

[A]

One of my favorite things.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's. It's. It's just true. So if you have the largest military might the world has ever seen, best Intelligence might the world has ever seen. Largely the best educational system. I mean, in America, we have the best of everything that is largely due to our, our economic might, Right? Yes. The foundation of that was our freedoms and all of that. But when you look at keeping people in line, that as long as they can go do the things that they want to do, they, they. Even if they're living paycheck to paycheck, they're still living paycheck to paycheck. Right. People become extremely comfortable, uncomfortable. People are very lazy. They're not driven, they're not hungry. Yeah, you make people driven, you make them hungry. And then what happens? All of a sudden they start looking around and they start looking for opportunities for change. And so every, you know, essentially government, every populous revolution that we've had, from my historical reading, and again, like, I'm, you know, not exactly the most educated guy, has all come from some type of economic displacement. And so if you have a mass scale and a economic displacement in a country the size of America, right. I mean, imagine if we had 30% unemployment or imagine if all of a sudden we had these massive, massive problems in the stock market that weren't necessarily tied to like an AI bubble or, you know, housing bubble or something systemic. Right. Then what ends up happening?

[A]

Well, what ends up happening if we don't do anything? I feel like both. I mean, so again, I know I realize the world isn't binary, but we're kind of looking at two extreme examples. I think you laid out a pretty good one of what if, what if it topples because people are looking for change, but what does it look like if we do nothing?

[B]

So I'm not a fun person to talk to on this because I actually don't think it's recoverable. There's a lot of things that I look at and I just think mathematically edging towards that.

[A]

Not in the term that Michael uses edging for, but I actually, just recently, I'm upset still to this day. I thought edge lording meant that you were the lord of edging, but it's a shit talker on the Internet, so don't use those terms.

[B]

It's not what you think.

[A]

I'm bummed. Yeah. But I just use the word.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Yeah. In an economic talk. So you're. There you go. I don't know if it's recoverable either.

[B]

We are a late stage republic and we are going down the road of every single late stage republic. And I think on where we're on one side of A lake. And we can go to the left, which is a very rapid deceleration and path to destruction, or we can go to the right, which is a longer, softer landing. Right. And at the end of the day, what do we become when we hit the other side of the lake? England.

[A]

What would you put a timeline on either of those options?

[B]

Oh, man, I have no idea. If I could. If I could.

[A]

If I don't throw that out there. If I could ask you something to look forward to.

[B]

If. If we go. If we go to the left of. Like, you look at what's happening in New York, like, we're about to run one hell of a. An experiment, a political experiment in this.

[A]

I think it's already been run. You can look up at other countries that have gone down socialism, light. And you can look at quality of living. You can look at tax. You could look at quality of health care, pollution, housing costs. Like, the answers to these tests are already kind of out there.

[B]

But they. But they did it as a country. So we.

[A]

New York's kind of a country.

[B]

One of the. Yeah. We have countries within countries. Right. I mean, we're. We. We could. Our country's already starting to Balkanize me. Look at the number of people who move here to Montana from, say, California.

[A]

They're moving back, though. Have you seen the stats?

[B]

A lot. A lot of them are moving back, but some of them are moving back.

[A]

I wouldn't say a lot. Growth has slowed.

[B]

Yeah. But a lot of them are. Are staying here. And when you talk to them, why are they here? They're political refugees.

[A]

Yes. That's why I felt that that's a.

[B]

Large part of why they moved here. That's a large part of why they're moving to Florida. Right. And. And so we had.

[A]

Just. Because we were still actively training Jiu Jitsu. Oh, well, let me say this. That was tangential to why they came up. They. They. A lot of them. Not a lot. I'm not gonna use the term a lot. Quite a few people I know left California. They also participated in Jiu jitsu. And as soon as, like, they would come up to visit to check it out, and as soon as they would come in for the, you know, to roll or train, and the next thing you know, they're like, oh, yeah, we put a deposit down on the house. It just kind of aligned with there. They wanted to make their own choices for themselves, which I am very pro. People doing.

[B]

Absolutely. And people should be able to incur the consequences.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of their choices. And I think A large part of what's going to happen in New York is you have people who are incurring the consequences of their choices. And so the government is coming in to try to alleviate the consequences of those choices, which are going to make the consequences worse and on and on. I mean, when I go to New York, which is usually only about once a year now, I probably used to go four or five times a year. Now I'm in West Palm because everybody I knew who used to live in.

[A]

New York, yeah, they moved.

[B]

For the most part, they all live in, in West Palm. And it's just other clients that I have in New York who are part of like a large hedge fund or something. And it would be extremely difficult for them to move right and up, like uproot the entire investment company. But, but a lot of them, they make sure that they spend very, very minimal time for tax reasons in New York. So I think, I actually think we have a proxy for this which is New Mexico. So New Mexico, unless you're talking about.

[A]

Registering vehicles, then in that case, Montana is the proxy for this.

[B]

I think, I think the, the New Mexico has, I want to say it's more PhDs per capita than any place.

[A]

In the world, dear Michael.

[B]

Yeah, because of the, the national labs that are there.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

The national labs, you know, the infrastructure that goes around the national labs. I mean, you've seen this stuff. I mean, it's, it's, it's massive. And it's not just the national lab itself that's such these massive complexes. It's all of the contractors and all the different people that, that make, that make those systems run. And those are important. We need them.

[A]

Is it doing that grab to the left again, Michael?

[B]

Yeah, a little bit, but it's pretty easy to fix. Massachusetts, Maryland, Connecticut, and states with major research labs like New Mexico. So what's really interesting, often lead in the highest percentage of density of PhD holders per capita.

[A]

Maryland. I wonder why it's so proxim to somewhere else.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Connecticut.

[B]

What else is in Maryland? What else is in Connecticut? So when you look at areas that have extremely high densities of government spending because like what, what is making those national labs run and what, what is.

[A]

Leading to this Director Indent funding. Exactly.

[B]

It's all p. It's all government funding eventually, right? It's all tax dollars, population size and university presence alongside areas near D.C. like Virginia. So Maryland, specifically northern Massachusetts. So Massachusetts, obviously you've got, you know, you've got Harvard, mit, all that. But look at the amount of government funding that goes into those. So if you can trace government funding to an area and you end up with these. These high concentrations of government funding, what happens to the rest of the area? Well, I think you. You can look this up, but isn't New Mexico like, number one for poverty in the country? Or it's like number one or number two? So you've got, you know, extremely high density of PhD holders per capita, yet I believe New Mexico also has, it's either, you know, 49th or 50th worst education system.

[A]

So Mississippi is currently ranked as the state with the highest poverty rate in the U.S. new Mexico. But let's be honest, no disrespect to anybody from Mississippi. Does that surprise you?

[B]

No, not at all. Not at all. But 18, 19.

[A]

Yeah. New Mexico. Okay. I mean, you're right behind.

[B]

So. So what's really interesting is the state of New Mexico is an extremely interesting case study, because if you. I mean, New Mexico used to be a red state. I mean, it. New Mexico is a bunch of ranchers and oil guys.

[A]

If you had just asked me to guess, I would have said it was still a red state.

[B]

Oh, God, no, I.

[A]

It's you.

[B]

Oh, no, they're governor.

[A]

I've been to New Mexico, but I haven't spent a lot of time there. There are places there that are shockingly beautiful.

[B]

Oh, incredible. New Mexico probably has some of the best outdoor recreation in the country because, I mean, when I lived in New Mexico when I was a PJ instructor, because it's where the Parasy school is, I lived at 6, 000ft. I could hike out my back door for an hour and go ice climbing in the winter.

[A]

Oh, God, that's awesome.

[B]

I could go skiing in the summer. I had amazing mountain biking, rock climbing. I mean, full four seasons. Yeah. In 300 days a year of sunshine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, Taos was a few hours away. Ski Santa Fe was about an hour and a half away. I mean, it's just incredible.

[A]

It's like postcard beauty. And. And it's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I need to actually spend more time there.

[B]

I wouldn't recommend it.

[A]

No.

[B]

Unless you want to, like, visit.

[A]

I mean, look at this stuff.

[B]

But. But even. Even to visit. So one of the reasons why I ended up leaving New Mexico is. Is my wife and I lived in a nice gated community inside the, like.

[A]

Are you saying you're one of the.

[B]

Six months that we lived there, you're.

[A]

One of the elites?

[B]

Am I elite in New Mexico is looking at.

[A]

The problem is A low bar now.

[B]

A low bar, yeah. There was a drive by shooting across the street. There was multiple SWAT call outs in this like, very nice neighborhood on a golf course. And so the, the culture of crime that came from, you know, massive amounts of government spending, which meant that in order to support the labs, you've got to have a high level of education. So all of that is coming into the state. It's not being, it's not being bred in the state. And I, it's linearly predictable the direction it went to the point that I believe it was, I think it was this year the governor actually declared a state of emergency in and sent the national. Or the. Yeah, the national. Yeah, National Guard from New Mexico into Albuquerque because the crime was so bad to deal with crime. But, but, but here's what she did. So you're thinking the way Trump sent him into D.C. oh, no, you know what I'm thinking? She put him, I was just thinking.

[A]

About what you said.

[B]

She put him in khakis and polo shirts. Unarmed.

[A]

What was their roles and responsibilities? That's a great question because, I mean.

[B]

Again, unarmed security isn't.

[A]

Well, even the, so the National Guard that was sent to la, they were, they were standing outside of federal buildings. They weren't even working hand in hand with law enforcement because they can't because of passing comitatus. Right. So it's a weird move. I guess it's an optic that's just, again, you want to talk about everything through the red or blue lens, it's going to completely be weaponized. You're going to get a different story. You know, National Guard are out there arresting people. And I heard from people in federal buildings that were like, yeah, they're just standing out in front of our building and that's literally all they're allowed to do. How that impacts crime, I'm not necessarily sure. Maybe it would deter it at a federal building.

[B]

Maybe, maybe. But you. So the governor in New Mexico is, let's just say she's a little extreme in her viewpoints. And even she had to acquiesce to say, okay, I got to do something because crime is so out of control.

[A]

But is that the something? I mean, can we not figure out a better solution?

[B]

How about just enforcing the laws we have and holding people accountable for the decisions they make? I mean, that. It seems pretty simple to me. It tends to work in most households across the country.

[A]

What's the argument against that?

[B]

I don't know, man. I don't know. I, I think this, I have A I have a right to be a victim type mentality. Right.

[A]

We all have that right. You don't necessarily have to express it.

[B]

But I think that people think that, that, you know, by the way, that's not a, you had it better than others, or I had it better than others, or, you know, Michael had it better than others. And so you, by having it better where the reason that I had it bad is because you had it better. Right. It's a, it's a zero sum mentality.

[A]

Such a myopic way to look at life.

[B]

Yeah. Because that's just not the way that that life, that life works.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so.

[A]

And where do you end that? Because regardless of where you're at, let's say. And I am in no way trying to demean anybody's position in life. But there is also a reason why refugees are. Will do everything they can up to including risking their life to come here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So people in the United States are the lower rung of the economic ladder who can look all the way up and say that there are people underneath them who are doing the same thing to them. So where does that go and how does that help? Like, life, Life isn't fair. I totally understand that. And I don't think that we should pray upon the vulnerable or the weak. But I also don't think you should have a revolving door policy when it comes to law enforcement. Because you want to talk about tests where the, you know, the scorecards on the classroom wall, I think we got the back on that one. Like, what are we doing here?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So the law enforcement has this, this theory of law enforcement called broken windows theory, which is basically where you enforce the law on the little things. You know, kids breaking windows, graffiti, things like that. They don't eventually become drug dealers and murderers. And there's some. Within some academic circles, it's controversial. That is not controversial within professional law enforcement circles. Every law enforcement officer worth their assault, it's like, yeah, that's exactly the way that happens.

[A]

Look at parenting. You can't just address the major issues. If you wait to say something to one of your kids until they are rolling with the bad crowd, have already come home either in the front or the back of a cop car or you're getting a call. If you wait until that point, I mean, it's possible you could do a 180, but a lot of it's gonna have to do with that individual. But, but yeah, starting off from when your kids understand communication about how to be polite and kind, please thank you. How you talk, how you listen, how you behave, it's the same. It's the broken windows theory just applied to parenting. You start at the smallest possible issue and you build on top of that.

[B]

Yeah. This morning my daughter comes out of her room at 6:26. She knows that other than to go to the bathroom if she wakes up early, she's supposed to be reading, drawing, you know, doing something. But she's not to come out of a room until 6:30. So she comes out this morning at 6:26. And my wife, of course, sends her back to her room and says it's not about the four minutes, it's about following the rule. And. And we just. We don't do that across society.

[A]

How old is she?

[B]

She's eight.

[A]

Give it time.

[B]

Oh, I know.

[A]

I got my daughter vaping the other day.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How'd that go for her?

[A]

It's tough. Well, how old is she? Seventeen.

[B]

Okay. Okay, okay.

[A]

Finished high school early. She's in a vocational program for welding.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Is eight your oldest?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I know.

[A]

I cannot.

[B]

The future for me is how many kids. She's way smarter than me.

[A]

Yeah, that's two.

[B]

But she's way smarter than me. She's.

[A]

Let me just.

[B]

She already manipulates me. My wife just laughs because I don't even see it coming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my wife will just be like, oh, she just. She just totally had you. I'm like, what? She just wanted this.

[A]

The amount of pain and suffering you have ahead of you, it warms my heart.

[B]

Good.

[A]

I look forward to that. So I catch her.

[B]

It's going to be awesome.

[A]

We were getting ready to go to Costa Rica and I walk into room and she slides something under the pillow in her bed. I was like, hey, what's that? Nothing. Like, there's nothing under your pillow? Nope. Lift your pillow up then. No, I don't want to. And I just looked him like, is that your vape? Because that's what.

[B]

Right.

[A]

These knuckleheads are doing. And then they will try to. Well, it's not as bad as smoking. Like. Oh, yeah, I'm sure that's natural blueberry frost flavor.

[B]

Like, really? Let's look at the data on it. Yeah.

[A]

I'm sure it's farm to table blueberries.

[B]

That Two Bear Farms was growing.

[A]

Blueberries with an eyedropper is just putting into that. And you know, there's a couple ways you can go with it. One, did I know that she was vaping? Vaping before that? Yeah. I know that all three of My kids had played around with that because I understand the influence of social circle over parenting.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And so instead of. I'm like, I don't get pissed. I've never yelled. I just. We sit and we talk, and I sat down, I talked to her. I was like, listen, I could take this from you, but I know that's not going to stop you from doing this, because I realize that you need one person in your social circle that's over 18 or 21, and you can. And this is a revolving door of getting as many of these as you want to. If the stores even id, which most of them actually don't. These kids know the gas stations to go to who? The attendant.

[B]

I did when I was that age.

[A]

And this is the optic that I look back on. So I'm like, listen, I could take this from you, but I know that you'll get another one. And the reality is, I want you to make the decision for yourself that this doesn't serve you nice. You know, you tell me sometimes that you're struggling with, you know, you don't feel hungry in the morning. Like, let's talk about the effects of nicotine. And, oh, by the way, what chemicals do you actually think are in this thing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I did say. I'm like. I told her. I'm like, it's not farm to table. You know, we had that conversation. So. And then when we went to Costa Rica, every adult that we encountered, I was like, oh, I just caught my daughter vaping, too. I told the TSA agents when we were going through security. I'm like, can you give her extra screening? She's up there doing the. I'm like, make sure she doesn't have every. And she was so mortified by the end of the trip. And so my middle son, who is 20, is back from MSU. He just walks into her room last night, goes into her door, grabs it, walks outside and throws it.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

They get into this argument with. My wife is listening to this. She was just like, I've never heard or seen anything like this. And so they're just going at it back and forth. And my daughter Julie's like, dad didn't take it away from me. Why would you. And he's like, because this is. It's stupid. And I don't want my sister to be stupid. So they just. I'm. And I just sit. I was just. Let.

[B]

Let it. Let it play out.

[A]

Let it happen, because I took my approach. But at the same time, I also appreciate Tyler's approach. Too.

[B]

Yeah. Which may or may have not have gotten from you.

[A]

There's right or wrong answers. Parenting is a weird one when it comes to that. Like, right or wrong. And I think there's effective. More effective and less effective.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And I.

[B]

And it's per child.

[A]

It is.

[B]

If I tell my daughter what the rules are, she's like, okay, yeah. Now my son is proof that karma is real. Yeah. Because he's like, show me where it says I can't. Well, you know where he learned that.

[A]

Yeah. Well, wait till the social circle, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where they were. Not all families are the same, and families have different rules, and then people develop different thoughts about the rules, whether they're malleable, whether a rule is this rigid or is this, like an undercooked spaghetti noodle where I can push it over here just a little bit. That has influence, man.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

And your kids are all going to have to make mistakes along the way.

[B]

And. And I try to help my wife understand that. It's like, look, she'll always be like, you know, telling my son, you know, be careful. Be careful because he's, you know, climbing on the roof of the house or.

[A]

Whatever, because that's what he's supposed to do.

[B]

And, like, stop telling him to be careful. Like, you don't want a. A boy being careful. Like, tell him to be wise, because there's a difference between getting hurt and getting injured.

[A]

Yeah, but you can't be wise with. When your age is single digits.

[B]

But. But you. You kind of can. Like, hey, maybe I shouldn't climb on the roof of the house. I'll climb on the top of the fence.

[A]

No, that's not a word. Tyler. Have you ever heard somebody say. Or Tyler. Michael. Tyler's my middle son. He knows. Michael knows him. Though a lot of people said Tyler's, you know, wise for his age. And I hear that.

[B]

Yeah, I could see it.

[A]

Well, here's the thing. He's going to engineering school.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

He is crushing it. He's got a job at a quantum computing lab in Bozeman.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Which he'll probably hook up and play Xbox with to the.

[B]

I mean, hey.

[A]

And so he's crushing it in so many aspects. And he'll have conversations with you about economics and stoicism and philosophy. And he was trying to tell me about this space time. Continue. I'm like, shut up. I don't even. Three roundabouts ago, I was off this car. And then he can't get up on time. You know what I mean? He'll wash Chapstick, like three chapsticks in his pair of pants. Or he'll. He let his car battery die at his apartment complex in Bozeman for a week. So he would call an Uber, have them show up, jump the car, and then cancel the ride. But he got to know the people, so they didn't charge him.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

So he's wise in many ways, but he's also 20, so he's an idiot. So you can't really be wise until you have some wisdom and experience to go around with.

[B]

I think for me, what I mean by being wise is he's gotten hurt plenty of times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, he's probably been hurt three times today.

[A]

That's how we learn.

[B]

And I turned the third stall of my garage into a ninja gym. And so he. I put mats on the floor, but still. And you're. I mean, when he started probably climbing around on that thing when he was three years old. And when you're three years old and you're, you know, a foot and a half and you fall from the ceiling onto those mats, like. Yeah.

[A]

Like, they're not as cushy.

[B]

It'll get your attention. You're not. You're not injured, but you're definitely hurt. And. And so think. Just trying to help him think through, like, okay, hey, remember when you did that? Remember how bad that hurt?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you think's going to happen here? And you're over grass or you're over concrete or you're over gravel. And. And because he just likes to climb stuff, so. And I. We actually switched him. He was in Jiu jitsu at a. At a different place that shall not be named here locally. And we actually put him in. In sbg because they're. I mean, it. It's three times as expensive, which I really didn't want to pay, but at the end of the day, you get what you pay for.

[A]

Cost and value are very different things.

[B]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Because the. The program and the way that they. I mean, it's almost like Boy Scouts in the way that they run it, and it's awesome. What's really cool is now I have something because he loves it so much, I have something that I can hold over his head. Right.

[A]

Which is an interesting parental approach as well, that I deeply support and have used many times.

[B]

Yeah. It's. It's like. Oh. Because at the end of the day, if you take something from your child or you threaten to take something from your child or whatever that they don't care about, like, that's not a consequence. But if suddenly it's like, hey, you're not going to get that next stripe on your belt if I don't make this little X right here, and if your teacher doesn't make this little X right here, then suddenly, I mean, that has a way of, of, of causing focus. And I think kind of back to what we were talking about, we don't have consequences in society that, that caused focus. I mean, you look at all those murders that were happening.

[A]

When did that start though? Because I don't feel like that's always been the case.

[B]

I don't mean to sound conspiracy theorist, but I think it started in the 50s with the, the ties between the ACLU and the, the KGB are well documented. And so if you look at what was happening in the 50s.

[A]

Michael, do you have our tinfoil hat? So I think it's. Yeah, it's, it might be time.

[B]

My fingers are about to be on fire. Yeah. If, if you look at, at also the way that the KGB said, hey, like we can't beat America, like they know, like the Russians knew they could not beat us, that we would just, if we went to war with them, to include.

[A]

Currently.

[B]

Yeah, if we go to war with them in an actual hot war, either a limited conflict or a full scale conflict, like we're gonna crush them. It's not even, it's not even going to be the same, the same game. And they're fully aware of that, that. And so they have been, they've been trying to destroy us from the inside from the beginning. And, and they, if you go back to unclassified documents or documents that have been been unclassified, it's, it's always been Russia. I mean, they very specifically went after our academic institutions and then they went after, you know, certain, certain entities within the legal system because they knew if they could, if they can control three things, media, the academic institutions, and they could control the, the legal system, then they could control the entire country, which is actually pretty smart. And one of the things that we forget is who are the best chess players in the world?

[A]

Computers.

[B]

They're almost always Russians. I mean, who, who, who, who are we like, very excited when a computer beats, you know, a, a human chess master. Yeah, it's, it's always a Russian that they're being, or it used to be anyway.

[A]

So how much of that do you think the US is doing towards them? Or has that not just been our brand of tea when it comes to intelligence and you know, long term espionage.

[B]

Like that I think we think we win wars. Like we, we confuse a pause or a transition and conflict with a win. Right. I think that's, that's the problem. And we are, as a country, we are incredibly good at winning battles. Best in the world at winning battles. We're the worst at winning wars or.

[A]

Putting things back together.

[B]

Yeah. Or, or, you know, coming up with some like. Like we're gonna freaking change Afghanistan into a frigging democracy after 2000 years. Like maybe not.

[A]

So there is 12 months would have been about a good time for us to stay there and get out of there.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Looking back now, I agree tactically it's almost like we did everything in 90, but we could have stayed for like, like another nine months, you know, just to make sure.

[B]

And, and at a, at a soft base there with a lot of air power and some shooters.

[A]

Yeah. Bogum for sure.

[B]

And keep what, 2,500 people there? 3,000 people. And you know, kind of like we did in, in Korea. Right. Probably maintain some type of limited persistent presence to be able to. Anytime something is rising up against America or against the regime that we want to see in place, we smack it down. But thinking that we were going to change this entire population was just foolish. There's no other word for it.

[A]

What do you think the world would look like? I mean, our ability to find, fix and finish those type of people when they got together to plan, coordinate, whatever it is, I mean, they learned as well. So they became very disaggregate. And I think there was 60 plus countries that have some level of ISIS, ISIL, whatever you want to what? Radical Islam, which wasn't the case before that. I wonder what that would have done to those tentacles spreading out into the world. I wonder if it would have contained it more.

[B]

That's a good question. I don't know. We know that the bad guys who lived through the GY were the smarter of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think we probably just would have ended up in the same place. It just would have been a matter of time. Like how would it have happened? Faster or slower. But one of our biggest problems and, and there's a lot of people who are going to really get pissed at me for saying this, but one of our biggest problems is anonymity on the Internet. And there is a big difference between anonymity and privacy. And people confuse those two. Your license plate on your car provides privacy. It does not provide anonymity.

[A]

Yeah, because the law enforcement.

[B]

Yeah. The right people can look it up.

[A]

And they have like lprs license plate readers, they have the ability to sniff that stuff.

[B]

Not in Montana.

[A]

Well, I mean there are states other than Montana and most high net worth vehicles are registered in Montana.

[B]

That's. This is true.

[A]

This is true.

[B]

So you know, as are, as are a lot of airplanes.

[A]

And I mean, listen, I didn't write the tax rules nor did I know that before I moved here to Montana. But I'm not going to talk about them.

[B]

No. And so it's. If you look at, if you look at the, the Internet writ large, I mean the, the ability for bad actors to recruit people is on a scale we've never seen before. And it's impossible for any government. For all the governments combined working together, which obviously would never happen. It's in like it, it literally violates the laws of physics. There's just too much scale.

[A]

Is it impossible or require things that people would not tolerate? We're talking like drastic throttling filters through government.

[B]

No, I don't, I don't think, I.

[A]

Don'T even think that'd be, I don't.

[B]

Think any of that is, any of that is even needed. So you can't open an anonymous bank account today.

[A]

Okay. I mean I've never tried, so I don't know.

[B]

But you can't. Right? The banking, the there, there's all types of banking regulations that were passed in order to get organized crime under, under control.

[A]

Can't you like pay a dude in cash to go to Switzerland or something? Because I have seen that.

[B]

A movie. Yeah. No, I don't know if you, if you, it doesn't matter if you're a billionaire. If you walk into a Swiss bank with a blue passport, they will, they will escort you out the front door.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Because America leveraged its might and said, hey, we know that a lot of our citizens are avoiding taxes by putting things over there. Same thing with the Caymans. That's why a lot. That's why this whole golden passport thing is such a big deal. So you can get a Portuguese golden passport, which then gets you a Portuguese passport and then you can use that passport to go to Switzerland and open your bank.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But nobody or the Kingdom of London.

[A]

Nobody would ever think one of those.

[B]

Oh yeah, nobody does that.

[A]

That. Yeah.

[B]

So the, the way that that system, they got that system under control was by saying, all right, all of these countries, if you want foreign aid, if you want our defense, you want all that, you now have to report every single American who has an account in your bank. So all the banks were like, cool we're just not going to allow Americans to have accounts in our banks anymore.

[A]

What about digital currency?

[B]

Well, digital currency, I mean, I can't buy. At your coffee shop. I can't buy a cup of coffee with digital currency.

[A]

So the problem just in Costa Rica, where you can.

[B]

Oh, that's cool. But when are we going to allow that in America?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

A bigger question is, is the banking system going to allow us to have that or are they going to make sure that the politicians keep that from happening?

[A]

Is it the banking system's choice? What if people just hop from the traditional banking system in volume over to a digital currency and the banks lose their power?

[B]

It is their choice. Because I used to, like, I used to trade a lot of crypto.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you didn't have to pay taxes on what you made because it was not considered real money. It wasn't considered worth anything. Right. And then think of what it was at three or four years ago. I stopped trading and I just started holding because now you actually have to report your crypto transactions on your taxes.

[A]

Did you buy any of those? What were they called, like, pictures of things.

[B]

Oh, the.

[A]

No, I still don't understand what that was. NFTs. That's what.

[B]

NFTs. Yeah. So it's kind of like, like art. So extremely wealthy people buy you. Like, you ever wonder why these, like, dumb paintings go for so much money? Nope.

[A]

And then second in my life do I wonder why paintings cost what they cost.

[B]

Well, this is how it works, right? So, congratulations, you're a billionaire. I'm a billionaire Mona Lisa. Yeah. Now I want to buy a jet from you. Or, or you want to buy the jet from me. Yeah, of course.

[A]

I can't travel a commercial. Yeah.

[B]

With. With the plebs. So what you do is you have the, the Mona Lisa painting. Obviously you don't own the Mona Lisa, but you have this extremely expensive painting transferred to me and I transfer the jet to you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. And that's so. So those paintings and things are currencies.

[A]

Did they crash in volume, though? Like, I feel like actual paintings have a more stable value than they do the NFTs.

[B]

It, it was supposed to be kind of the digital equivalent and it crashed. Now it'll come back, but it'll probably be tied to real paintings. So at the end of the day, anything is like a dollar is only worth a dollar because you agree that it's worth a dollar. That's it. Right. It's a mutual agreement. So the whole digital currency space is still the Wild west, but it's still. It's starting to become very real.

[A]

And you have to report even unrealized gains.

[B]

No, you don't have to report unrealized gains, but you do have to report your trades. You have to report your trades, and they are taxed with capital gains, just like if you were doing stocks or gold or anything else. And so the bank. That didn't used to be the case. And then as soon as the government realized the total volume that was happening, they were like, oh, crap, we're leaving a lot of money on the table. Okay, Pass regulation. And the banks got pissed and they said, well, because we're, We're. We're now not trading through Morgan Stanley or trading through a hedge fund or whatever. Right now, Nick McKinley, nobody in Montana is trading at levels where I would normally have to go through a brokerage. And you don't need a license to do that.

[A]

That.

[B]

Well, the brokerages, I mean, you think JP Morgan has a say in what happens in our government? So they didn't like that. So between the banks and the insurance companies, now you don't need to have any insurance on any of that stuff. And then the, the traders who. They have their licenses that you, you know, that's how they're making their money. And so this whole system of trading happened that cut out the entire traditional system. And the traditional system had an immune response to that. So then they went to Congress and said, hey, this can't be. You gotta get this under control. And our senators and congressmen do exactly what they've always done since probably the 40s, maybe the 30s, when private industry came to them with a problem. They said, roger that, and went ahead and changed the laws.

[A]

I'm not gonna say J.P. morgan has any influence. I'm not gonna say that they don't, because I'm pretty sure they're a donor. On the ballroom at the White House, which people are losing their mind over that way. The White House actually does need a ballroom. I'm not an architect. I'm not here. Like, the visual thing is not my deal. But like, also, the White House does need a ballroom. Do we really? I. That's what I kind of land on, too. The White House has been remodeled so many different times. It goes right back to the tribalism.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Blue or red.

[B]

Yeah. If. If Obama would have made a ballroom, the, you know, the right side would have freaked out. Well, Trump is making a ballroom, so the left side is freaking out. Like, it's predictable. And what's so funny is people don't understand like how foolish all of that is. Right. So, like, you know, some of the stuff that we'll talk about is we have. So we have some major, major problems in this country. I mean, children dying at scale. And we're, we're talking about a ballroom. We're talking about what.

[A]

I think that might be intentional.

[B]

I. I think it is. I absolutely think it is.

[A]

It's tough to.

[B]

I'm about to find out really. Next year we'll have a. We'll probably be sitting here having a very different conversation.

[A]

Well, this, this episode should be titled Andy and Nick Scared the Crap out of parents 2025 because we do it every year. So you're the one with the iPad. I mean, where do you even want to begin? You probably should explain just to make it standalone.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[A]

Deliver Phone and Deliver Phone, Deliver Fund and what you guys do.

[B]

So the folks who haven't heard us before, I founded an organization called Deliver Fund where the. The largest provider of data and intelligence in. On human trafficking cases across America. And so if you have a, if you see in the news somebody arrested for human trafficking, there's arguably an 85 plus percent chance that they're using our data. We also provide operational support to law enforcement. So that's where we have former child crimes detectives, CIA analysts, NSA analysts who we recruit out of the government. We give them a salary and benefits and then they go embed in law enforcement task forces and catch bad guys. And we actually just put together some metrics for, for the last five years because I was, I try to do this every five years because what gets measured gets improved. Right. And the numbers actually were staggering. It was better than I had imagined. And I really have no credit for that. Like, I started Deliver Fund. Sure. Really easy to come up with a good idea, right? Yeah, Very hard to execute. And I've had amazing team members and not so amazing team members of. I've learned some serious lessons, but I've had some amazing team members and currently have some amazing team members that are making this happen. So just in the last five years, we've delivered three 751 intelligence reports to law enforcement.

[A]

Is that on a victim or an abuser?

[B]

That is on a trafficker? If we are doing so, we are a trafficker centric organization. So if we are delivering an intelligence report, it is tied to a very specific human trafficker.

[A]

Can we put all their names and faces on the Internet?

[B]

Man, that would be amazing if we could.

[A]

I mean, if you were to Airdrop Michael something. He.

[B]

I don't know. But as soon as that happens, yeah, all the cases get messed up. And so we, and that's something I think it's important for people to understand. We're not freaking door kickers anymore. We don't do that. Not because obviously we couldn't. We do that because those are called committing felonies. And in the few cases where you can do that in conjunction with law enforcement, it's not scalable. It's like, okay, so, so you got one big freaking deal. What about the thousands more that are out there? So it's, it's an intelligence game. Unless. Unless you're going to have a badge and a gun. It's an intelligence game.

[A]

And so it is one thing you've. And I want to make sure that people listening this from our old career because oftentimes the potato peeler is tongue in cheek. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would absolutely love to have a pocket with that and be. I, I don't know if anything would bring me more joy if my full time job was to just swing by your office in the morning, pick up a target package and here you go every day.

[B]

Just go execute all day, every day.

[A]

But if you're looking at this type of world because people with our background will be very interested because they think that's what it is, they have to realize that's not what you're getting into. It's the intelligence side of the house. You're. You're now enabling. You're the by with and through, buddy.

[B]

We're the nerds. We're the nerds. Now that's enough.

[A]

That's a tough great for people, especially if they think they're getting. They're just going to be picking up the tip and yeah, off they go.

[B]

Great example is there's a guy, phenomenal human. I'm not gonna say his name, but he's a hacker and he was going after pedophile websites and he was dumping. He was hacking into the site.

[A]

I gotta hear talking.

[B]

Dumping hole sites and then handing them over to the bureau. And the bureau's like, man, we can't do anything with this because like this is all like, like you committed a crime.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In order to get this. Which means that all of this evidence, 100% of it cannot be used in court.

[A]

A JV lawyer would get that stuff thrown out.

[B]

Yeah. What are we supposed to do with this? Nothing. And so the, the, you know, doing things the hard way is usually also the right way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But at the end of the day. And I'll. Again, I'm just. I'm just gonna get your comments lit up with all the controversial things. I'm gonna say it is disrespectful for former SOF and intelligence personnel to go to law enforcement and say, all right, cops, let us show you how to do this job. Because every time they put their hands on somebody, they're potentially facing assault charges. Every time they shoot somebody, they're potentially facing murder charges. I mean, I remember, right. Agency and military days. I mean, especially towards the end of the war, if someone got shot, normally weren't even talking about it unless, like, something funny happened or somebody, like, really screwed something up and got lucky and it was like, hey, we need to. We need to debrief this. But otherwise, you were never on murder charges for the most part. Right.

[A]

Or even shooter statements. I mean, towards the tail. And then you're going back to 6, 7 page. What led up to it? You know, the whole. Yeah, how what? You know, five dubs. All that stuff explaining your actions and. Not that you didn't. I mean, you should have always had those justifications when you took those actions. But earlier on, it was less paid attention to, I guess.

[B]

But that was only on. On, like, planned direct action stuff. What about when you were just in a tick? That was an ambush. Yeah. And people are just, you know, getting put down on a hillside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one's freaking counting anything. No one's, like, getting. Asking for debriefs when you got back was like, okay, everybody lived or. Oh, man. So in the roll three or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. If towards the tail end, if you call the tick, which for people listening stands for troops in contact, it's a call you make over the radio. It's actually really wild to see if you're in a talk a tactical operations center, that radio, because they're listening to a variety of nets right there. It's like some of the bigger ones.

[B]

Depends on where you are too. Yeah.

[A]

Like down in Kandahar, though, I mean, my God, they were listening to so much stuff. But somebody says of the radio, troops in contact, it's everything else kind of gets dropped. Assets get sent over there, and that's the importance of making that call. But then behind that, towards the tail end, there was a lot more. They were asking for those things. And, you know, maybe rightfully so, maybe they should have.

[B]

The night I left, let me see, when was the last time I was in Afghanistan? Was like 2012, beginning of 2013. So the rest of the time I was all in the like. Well, I can't, I can't say. But you know, North Africa, places north of India, I mean that's kind of same places like that. That's kind of. North Africa is a big place. There's a lot of places north of India anyway. That's true. But, but there, you know, we, I mean you don't have assets that are on a, you know, on a five minute standby getting ready to launch. I mean you don't have any of that stuff, but you're on your own. And even then it was just like, like we had guys who as an example, they in, in a place somewhere on earth, they end up getting into an ambush that an asset set up. And the freaking lawyers, because it's always the lawyers, the government lawyers. So the government lawyers at, at an organization decided that we couldn't carry frag grenades because those were offensive weapons. Like that's really interesting. But we could carry flashbangs because those were defensive weapons.

[A]

That's really a pistol or rifle.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, but they also said that we could carry 40 millimeter grenade launchers because those were being used defensively. Don't. I don't even try to figure out what they were thinking.

[A]

Well, how did they justify your pistol and rifle? Well, of course.

[B]

What did we do? We've got frags on us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So guys ended up, ended up using a frag to. There's huge crowds around the car. It was, it was a very actually well planned ambush. Dudes dumping an AK into the window. Which luckily was level seven. Right.

[A]

Still quite emotional.

[B]

Yeah. And so they, they, the car was disabled. They had to get out of there. And they couldn't get out on the non contact side because of the amount of, amount of people there.

[A]

Oh boy.

[B]

And so they managed to like between two of them get the door open enough to drop a frag. Close the door. It's level seven. Right. So smart move.

[A]

Level seven for people listening is an armor rating.

[B]

Yeah, it's a, it's a very high level of armor rating reading. Most of your like cash trucks and things I think are like level three or level four. Right. So they, they, they drop a frag tends to clear some people out and they get the door open. Well, they're giving their debrief and of course no one ever asked a question. Everybody came back alive. That's, that's really all that mattered. And so it was just a completely different environment than law enforcement. So I used to do a lot of training for law enforcement for Greg Jackson and I stopped doing it because I'd be training a law enforcement officer and they'd be like, oh, yeah, it's against policy. We can't do that. Oh, we can't do that. Oh, we can't do that. And I was just like, man, I'm just gonna get these guys in trouble. And so what does law enforcement need help doing? Well, they can't go do surveillance or go kick in a door, rescue a victim and do intelligence work simultaneously. So we do the intelligence work and then they do, you know, they do the action guy stuff. But more importantly, through some recent technical partnerships, we're now distributing data to, let me see, to over 1200 law enforcement agencies. That's over 8, 000 law, like individual law enforcement officers for free thanks to the, the donations, you know, thanks to our donors. So we're just, we're distributing it. So we've had, just in the last six months, we've had almost a million searches of our data through law enforcement. Right. So over 980,000 of those. But not every time are you going to get a hit.

[A]

I know, but what I mean is it's disturbing because your data is pretty specific.

[B]

It's very specific genre. But what's important about that is these aren't manual searches. So if you have, we're actually integrating our data into law enforcement platforms. So if you have a narcotics detective who's doing a case and he say, inputs a phone number to see who.

[A]

It attributes back to, little Venn diagram overlap.

[B]

It automatically checks hours. And to see like, oh, is there trafficking potentially related in this? So what we've done is we've taken away the law enforcement officer's ability to have to remember to go check this database and check this database. And I'm going to check this database in case there might be traffic trafficking. We've automated that whole thing. So out of the980,000 plus individual phone numbers that have been searched over the last six months, we have had 2,726 cases, human trafficking cases that were created that had nothing to do with us. Our analysts weren't involved. So that's fighting trafficking at scale. So, but think about this. This is why this is really important. Over the last five years, 3,751 intelligence reports to law enforcement, that is our analysts involved, just in the last six months, 2,726.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Right. So now we're talking about actually getting to this, getting to the bottom of this problem at scale. And that's, I think, the thing that everybody has to realize is this is a scale issue. Anonymity on the Internet has made it so that a 40 year old man can pretend to be a 16 year old boy and start contacting a 14 year old girl and sex store her or, or you know, get, somehow get control of her and then start trafficking her. And they can do that. Extremely low barrier to entry. Right. It costs almost no money for them to do that. And so it's, it's essentially pure profit for them once they get the girl out under control. Other than what it takes to keep a human alive, which they barely do. So when you look at the scale problem, you know, human beings involved in this, I mean if Deliver Fund had to be involved in every single case, will take us another five years to probably get another 4,000 intelligence reports out to law enforcement now. Next year we'll probably have five to 8,000 intelligence reports that are generated through our data and intelligence systems which are all, all a bunch of AI and machine learning and biometrics and, and all in house built.

[A]

Creeping up on 10 to 15 a day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah. Well this, this will really blow your skirt up. So over the last five years we've been personally like as a Deliver Fund analyst have been embedded in 164 human trafficking task force operations. That's a lot. And, and some of Those operations last three days and some of them last 10 days. Right. Known human traffickers arrested. 314. That's almost one a week.

[A]

Do you think that's substantial or a drop in the bucket?

[B]

I don't think it matters.

[A]

I'm just curious about how big you think this issue is.

[B]

Well, we'll get into that because it's evolving and it's changing and that's, that's kind of part of, part of our strategy is the way that we were fighting trafficking three, four, five years ago. It's not the same way we do.

[A]

It today because they're learning and evolving. Yeah, shocker.

[B]

Where have we seen that before? If you, if you know whatever you're doing to, to fight trafficking, if it doesn't evolve and have the ability to evolve in near real time with the way that the bad guys change their ttps, then you're ultimately going to fail.

[A]

That's not true, Nick. We should always do hostage rescue.

[B]

That should be our primary focus is.

[A]

What do we do if there is a hostage or not?

[B]

Not.

[A]

You go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you know how slow we were to adapt to that one.

[B]

Yeah. So 314 traffickers arrested. That's essentially one a week, every week for the last five years. Known.

[A]

That's way more than one a week because there's only 52 weeks per year. That'd be six per week.

[B]

I'd be. Oh, yeah, that's right. Thank you.

[A]

It's almost one a day.

[B]

Almost one a day.

[A]

Yeah. But you chose to take it into weeks. Please don't make me do math again.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I'm not good at it.

[B]

That, that was your one time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're done. Known human trafficking, adult victims. So adults that were freed from our operations. 821 over the last five years. That's just the known ones. So oftentimes, and this is kind of part of the whole strategy, why we're so trafficker centric, is we want that detective to get access to that trafficker's electronic devices and then we want them to rip those devices and find out how many other victims are there.

[A]

Are they. Are you finding anybody that is trying to combat the electronic iconic nature of this by going old school? No, I was going to say at this point. Right. They're beholden to these devices which can give. Like you said, you do these. The rip and there's a, you know, there's a variety of different levels you can pull and you guys have some tools that.

[B]

Yeah, so we don't.

[A]

The brass tax of what's going on. Yeah.

[B]

We don't ever. Once, once the trafficker is identified, we're out. Now we might, we might continue to help provide intelligence. Yeah. But. But we don't do anything else because it's important that a law enforcement officer rips that phone or, or their crime analyst does.

[A]

So that treasure trove of information. Yeah, that's why I asked if anybody was going old school. Because that's the only way you're going to beat that.

[B]

It's the only way you're going to beat it. And if they do that, they won't make any money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we win.

[A]

Win, win.

[B]

Yeah. So. So it's a Hobson's choice. Doesn't matter if they go left or right, we win.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that, that's the way the whole system is set up. Known juvenile victims, 435 over the last five years. Right. So that's. That's over 12, 50 human trafficking victims that have been freed over the last five years. Just the known ones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And active law enforcement investigations. We're not law enforcement, so sometimes we have detectives that we have great relationships with or prosecutors. And they'll say, hey, just want to let you know, can't get too into the details, but here was the outcome of that rip. But 98% of the time they don't communicate back to us. One, they have no incentive to do that, and two, they're putting the whole case at risk if they do.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

So. So we think they're actually significantly more juvenile victims. That number is probably 3 or 4x, maybe 5x. It's just that law enforcement legally cannot communicate with us about a, about a juvenile. Right. Known human trafficking customers arrested. Right. So these are the customers. We don't focus on customers, but they, but every time we have an opportunity to go after them, obviously we do.

[A]

I mean, it's part of the equation.

[B]

Yeah. 11, 1132. So pretty, pretty crazy. And then law enforcement officers and prosecutors, we've trained 1590 to, to. So we're talking about serious scale that we've been doing over the last five years. And now that's getting ready to go to a whole new level. So that's kind of the good news.

[A]

Before you get into the bad news. What's it look like when a customer. Are we talking about charges? Are we talking about just getting exposed to where they live? Both of those things. What's.

[B]

Depends on where it's at.

[A]

What's the average impact, you think, in one of their life?

[B]

It depends on where it's at. You can't really average it out because in California, they're like, like slap on the wrist. They let them go. In Florida, you're potentially looking at a life sentence. Like, it's, it's okay.

[A]

Those are very different options.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's that big. If it is a federal human trafficking case that they can tie into a customer, it probably is a juvenile victim. And so there is child sexual abuse material, which is not really an economic incentive. It's more of a, you know, sick pleasure incentive for that customer. I don't agree with this, but they'll hit them with human trafficking charges because the human trafficking law actually says that if the victim is a minor, it's automatic. It can automatically be a human trafficking charge. But human trafficking in itself, academically, is when one person is, is really getting the economic benefit of the labor of another person. Right. So slavery. Yeah, that labor tends to be commercial sex in nature. Primarily in America. There's a, this growing narrative on the Internet that, well, the labor trafficking is, is a higher percentage of human trafficking than commercial sex activity. That's just not true. And that's, that is a narrative that's Being paid for and driven by the pornography industry. Because the pornhubs of the world don't want you to know how much of their pornography is actually human trafficking victims being exploited against their will. The, the pornography industry writ large doesn't want you to know that, and they don't obviously want to pay attention to that. So they spend their considerable resources trying to, trying to change the public narrative to say, oh, no, most human trafficking is, you know, people being forced to pick potatoes in Idaho against their will. Which there is a part of that, but it's, it's. I mean, really, we're talking apples and oranges now. Those people, especially if they're women, do tend to be sexually exploited as well. So the, the predominant form of human trafficking in America is, is commercial sex trafficking. So. So when you look at.

[A]

So we're done with the good.

[B]

Yeah. So when you look at the way that that all comes together, it's like. All right, so if, if. But think about it. If we did 3751 intelligence reports, right. So those are identified human traffickers, but there was 314 arrests. So let's just make the math easy. Call it 10%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why? Well, there's a couple of reasons for it. One is a lot of prosecutors don't know how to do trafficking cases. I mean, you look at. Yes. In New York, Chicago, Louisiana. Big law enforcement agencies, dedicated prosecutors. What about Flathead County, Montana?

[A]

Couldn't tell you. I would assume not as well.

[B]

So you know a little bit about a trafficking case that was happening here. What? The locals.

[A]

I've chatted with you about it.

[B]

What'd the local prosecutor do about it?

[A]

I'm not aware of anything being done at all.

[B]

Nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So if the Fed does. If the feds don't adopt the case, nothing. Nothing happens.

[A]

So what does that mean? They just continue to operate in literally plain sight? If you know what you're looking for.

[B]

Yep, that's exactly what that means. So part one of the tools that we're building is an AI tool that we call the AI prosecutor that actually helps a rural prosecutor be able to load their case data and see what their prosecutorial options are and be able to actually successfully prosecute that case. Because a lot of prosecutors don't want to win or don't want to lose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On their record. Because they've got ambitions, you know, political ambitions or whatever.

[A]

It's literally a lack of understanding of what to do. I mean, isn't that part of their job?

[B]

Well, so. So yes, I think Theoretically, you're. You're right, but let's also give them a little bit of grace here. That's like saying that a doctor who is a. A neurosurgeon also needs to be able.

[A]

To do foot surgery or take out kidneys. No, I get it. I get. Just sucks, especially when, I mean, obviously we're talking around something, but. Yeah, it's. It's consumer facing, plain as day where we live.

[B]

Yeah. And so when you have a. A. But I would actually put that back on in this case, the Montana state legislature or. Or the federal legislature. Why are laws so complicated that a prosecutor has to be a specialist in a certain type Of. Of prosecution?

[A]

Yeah. Minor in Greek.

[B]

Why? Yeah, why? Why did you know? Why. Why has our. Our senators and congressmen set the system up to be that complicated?

[A]

That.

[B]

That's a whole other conversation.

[A]

Do we need to get our tinfoil hats out again?

[B]

No. I don't know why. I don't know why. But it. It, like, it's. It's one of the biggest problems we have is our. Our. Our system is legally so complicated.

[A]

Well, I don't think legal language has ever been super complicated. Clear.

[B]

And job security for lawyers.

[A]

I mean, if you think. I mean, back in the days, right. When they're writing the. Look at the language in the Constitution. Right. It was more colorful, it was more verbose. It was definitely a richer language. Legal language has always been, to me, dense. Not in a bad way, but sometimes hard to understand.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I just don't think that's changed. I don't think it's changed, but I also think it's. It's by design because, I mean, lawyers kind of run our country.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They really do. And especially trial lawyers associations and things like that. So, I mean, are you gonna. Are you gonna put the rules in your favor and your friend's favor? Are you gonna. Are you gonna take them out of your favor? And if it was so easy that everybody could understand it and everybody could do it, well, then why would you need a lawyer? Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, so.

[A]

It does, unfortunately.

[B]

So I think that's. That's a lot of. A lot of the problem here. And so ultimately, it's why I'll. I'll kind of go back to what I originally said. Anonymity on the Internet is the biggest problem, not privacy. I mean, I will find a bigger privacy person than me, but I don't think people should be allowed to open anonymous bank accounts, because that's a really good way to launder money. There are, there. Would there be benefits to anonymous bank accounts? Sure, absolutely. There could be. But do the cons outweigh the pros?

[A]

Not in my opinion.

[B]

Oh yeah. So I mean if you, if you think about bank accounts are a great example. Right. How about, how about anonymity? You know, with vehicle registrations? I mean license plates ultimately are probably a good thing. And they, we, we get a lot of crime solved because they got the license plate number.

[A]

Oh for sure, right.

[B]

A lot of it, it. Well, if we took, if we did away with that and now everybody's just anonymous. People, people are going to act the way they do on the Internet. They're just going to act in that way publicly. So what the problem we have on the Internet is that you and I, we, Michael could go start five Facebook accounts right now without going on VPNs. None of that. Right. He could use, he could use burner numbers that come from and, and the, the, the burner number phone companies. They're the, they're the worst offenders of all worst offenders. And I'm not going to say their name publicly just because I don't want to. I just don't want to deal with.

[A]

Another lawsuit or driving business.

[B]

Yeah. Or yeah, that's a good point. But there's a company that we figured out where they, their company is.51 of the phone numbers that are tied to commercial sex advertisements is being hosted by one company. One. So if they're 51 of the phone numbers on commercial sex advertisements, what are the chances that they're Also, let's call it 50ish percent of the burner phone numbers that are leading to fentanyl deaths or that are leading to illegal gun sales or any other illicit commodity that we're dealing with. So when we look at, when we look at what we've been doing for the last 10 years, 11 years now coming up on 12, I look at the entire market and we've been working down here. So think about it this way. All and we learned this in the war on terror. Right. So this will make a lot of sense to you. So all of this at commodity markets are linear, right? You can't, it's not a cycle. You can't enter a market anywhere. Right. I can't buy a cup of coffee and then discover the coffee shop.

[A]

Shop, correct.

[B]

I've got to discover the coffee shop. I've got to figure out a way to get in there. I've got to have a method of payment already pre established. Right. That could just be cash you know, your cryptocurrencies, whatever. I've gotta, I've gotta actually get inside. I've got to order the cup of coffee, I've got to make payment. Ultimately that business is going to have to file taxes as their regulatory duty. Right. That whole thing. So the war, we learned in the war on terror that it was the same way. Right. Originally we were just trying to kill bad guys. They're like, well, wait a minute, who's making the bomb? Who's sewing the vest? Who's doing that? And then we started going upstream, we started killing those guys. And then all the, all the cyber dudes started doing all their disruption stuff. Right. On the recruiting side. So there's 10 points of disruption on a, in any illicit commodity market. And anybody who's an, an, an economic nerd and wants to look at like Markov chain models and things literally just go to my website, which is nickmckinlay.com and I want to say it's forward/10 points and put in your email at the bottom and you can download a 23 page graduate paper that I wrote on this, full referenced. Nobody's ever said my math is wrong. If you find my math is wrong, please let me know privately. Anyway, so imagine a human trafficker. What they do is they've got to recognize a, a market opportunity. So they go, oh, that human traffic is making a lot of money. Seems pretty easy. I'm going to do the same thing. And oftentimes they'll actually collaborate and they'll go, they'll do a business deal with it. The young trafficker will do a business deal with the old trafficker and say, I'll give you 20% of everything I make if you teach me what they call the game. So they recognize the market opportunity. Now they have have to get access to communications, they have to find customers, they have to communicate with, with those customers. They also have to communicate with the product, they have to transport the product, they have to get, you know, they have to perform the service. So that's really hotels and motels for the most part. Airbnbs, verbos those, you know, temporary lodging facilities. Then they have to receive payment, put the payment in the bank. Ultimately they're not filing taxes, but there's some type of regulatory authority there. Well, imagine that is a hundred meter sprint. The trafficker is trying to sprint 100 meters. We have this little hurdle at the end that we call law enforcement and regulatory authorities. What we just showed you, it's about 5ish percent effective. We don't actually think it's quite 5%. It's probably more like 2 to 3%. If we maximize that and we just said, okay, we're going to get it to 5%. Well, that means the trafficker has a 95 chance of success. Pretty good odds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you add a hurdle at every single point of transaction. If you just make it 20 effective, which is failure. I mean, you think about it, something's only 20 effective. That's failure. Make it 20 effective. Cumulative mathematics works that in. That trafficker ends up with a 96.3% chance of getting caught just by in.

[A]

The system titrating out those hurdles.

[B]

Right, Right. So now if they, if they manage to get the fake book account, right. The, the, the, the fake social media account, well, they're probably going to get caught in their communications. And if they manage to get through the communications, they're going to get caught in the transport. If they manage to get caught on the transport, they're, they're going to, you know, their, their Verbo or Airbnb or Marriott reservation is going to get denied. Right. And so and on and on and on. I mean, we've. We had a trafficker in California who showed up in a turf Turo. Right. I lease turos when I travel for business because it's awesome.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's way better than the rental car service. And so. Well, the trafficker was doing exactly the same thing.

[A]

Isn't that just somebody's personal car that they. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Yeah. So somebody's personal car that they rented out was used in a human trafficking operation.

[A]

I mean, any transportation is like anybody else, they're going to take the lowest degree of pushback.

[B]

And so what, what happened to that? But also what happened to that individual's Turo? It was a BMW. It's sitting in an impound lot because it's part of a case. So now they're not. And if they've got debt on it now, they're still making payments. So you can see how like, this actually affects everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we can literally flip the odds by starting to work more and more with industry, which we are starting to go after the companies that are facilitating this, but also pointing out to people like, where, where are the, like, like, where's the, the go no go points? Right. There are things that you can do on, say, Instagram. I don't think your kids should be on Instagram, but eventually they're going to become teenagers and so they're going to get their Instagram whether they leave the house and do it or they do it still under your roof. So you've got to teach them. But there are things like we'll get into. Roblox is a great example.

[A]

Dude, I've read a lot of articles about this where it is.

[B]

Yeah, it is just a full. Like there is no go beyond this point. If you allow your children, especially after listening the stuff that we're going to talk about, you allow your children to play Roblox and they end up being one of these victims. That's on you. That is it. You made a conscious choice to allow your child to become a victim of a predator. And, and it's a tough statement. It's. It's a true statement. Yeah, it is a true statement because there. I've changed my mind on some, some things over the last couple of years based on one, research that I'm doing for some of my other businesses. But then two, based on what we're seeing in the data at Deliver Fund. And I used to think that pretty much any system was recoverable in that if you just do these things, 99% chance your kid is going to be safe. I've changed my mind on that after.

[A]

Learning good academic principles. So it's a good academic principle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The real world likes to give the old gah to the academic principles.

[B]

Yeah. But it's true. I just have learned the technical background on what's happening behind some of these platforms. And there are some. Instagram is a great example that I think can be recovered. Roblox is irrecoverable. The only way to protect kids is to boycott Roblox. And yes, I just said that publicly. Boycott Roblox.

[A]

Get into it. What are you seeing on that? Since we're on that topic. Yeah.

[B]

All right, so we'll, we'll jump right into it. All right. So first and foremost, people need to understand they are coming for your kids like they are. That is not a conspiracy theory. You can leave the tinfoil.

[A]

Well, that would make sense because predators go to the environment where the kids are where the prey.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whether this is in the wild kingdom or human beings who are broken and are looking to victimize kids, that shouldn't shock anybody.

[B]

And they're going to go to the ones that, that have the lowest risk.

[A]

Yeah. And if you don't want to get bitten by a shark, even though your odds are very low, you can swim in Flathead Lake, not the ocean, Right?

[B]

Yeah. And if you're going to swim in the ocean. Yeah. Maybe not off the coast of Australia.

[A]

Yeah. Or the golden triangle or red triangle in Santa Cruz.

[B]

Yeah, that's it.

[A]

So if you don't go in the ocean, your odds of encountering a shark are really, really low. You'd have to have a horrendous, horrendous accident at an aquarium of some kind. That would definitely.

[B]

You're going to be in a museum. Yeah, yeah, for sure. People will tell stories about you 100%. So, so the first thing I want to get into as an example, have you heard of this group 764?

[A]

No.

[B]

All right, so 764. What is it? A satanic cult group where the currency of the group is extreme violence. Okay, so think about that. Like everybody just take a minute to digest that because those are, those are words we rarely use all in the same sentence combined. Yeah, So I just said that they are coming for your kids. And there is a group that is a satanic cult group that's focused on extreme violence. Who are they focused on extreme violence against your kids. Right. So I had to write a lot of this down because this is, this was. The things that I've learned over the last few months enraged me. And it's very difficult for my thinking brain to work properly and remember things properly when I get this worked up. So what they do is they very.

[A]

This is on Roblox.

[B]

So this is on Roblox. Minecraft and Discord are your three, are your three biggest offenders.

[A]

Now Discord kind of connects both Minecraft and Roblox because it's how they communicate.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot of the communications, the other ones. Yeah. So the way, the way this, this tends to typically work is they're on a game. Your child is on a game like Roblox and then they meet somebody on the game and in order to get around filters and things like that, they go over to Discord.

[A]

And this isn't, this is like Battlefield and all the first person shooters. Like I commonly hear people talking about Discord and video games.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So this is super.

[B]

The first person shooter games aren't really the target rich environment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the, the first person shooter games, there's a lot of adults on there.

[A]

No, no, I mean it's just, it's super common to hear these.

[B]

Oh, to hear them together. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now Discord, I mean, why they, why they don't just go to WhatsApp or Signal or something like that? Like there's Discord with these secure servers, tons of, of child sexual abuse material that gets passed there, lots of extremism that Gets passed there. And so the, the 764 group, they. They have a lot of intersection between like Neo Nazism and then what's, what's. What's called Order of Nine which is like a Satanic church. Yeah. So this is, this is this like singularity of like all the bad things kind of, kind of coming together. What's really sick is it was started by a 15 year old kid in Texas. So this, this isn't. Yeah, this isn't coming from Russia. This is coming from the United States of America. Now a lot of it has, has permeated overseas. The FBI is telling you that there's roughly 3,000ish members.

[A]

Start that. Why would it fit?

[B]

How. What incred incredibly obviously Machiavellian mindset.

[A]

Some people just very evil box broken man.

[B]

Yeah, just incredibly evil.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

If you were anti death penalty, you may not be after. After this conversation. So what do they do? They, they find kids primarily on Roblox, Minecraft and Discord. Like and there's a very specific reason they do that because if I ask you, you know, Michael, what is, what is Roblox? Do you have any idea? Yeah, it's like a video game. For who? Well, kids primarily. There you go. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's a building game, right? Same kind of.

[B]

Yeah. So it's, it's not, it's not a, it's not a game. It's an infrastructure that other people can build games inside of.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Now I, I've got apps that my companies have deployed on the App Store. I'll tell you, it is a pain to get an app on the App Store.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean they review your code and Apple will just tell you Google is actually even, even harder for some apps. They'll just tell you, oh no, we don't, we don't like that. You can't have that feature if you want to be on the App Store. Yeah, you gotta remove the teacher kingdom. Yeah. Like you have, you have zero leverage in this, in this situation.

[A]

And then they really don't care if your app's on the App Store.

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then they're like, yeah, we're taking 30 cents on every dollar for the first year.

[A]

You're welcome.

[B]

Yeah, you're welcome. With we're allowing you to be on our platform, we might up that. We might not plan accordingly. We'll let you know. Yeah. So. So Roblox is, is kind of the same way. Right. It's. It's like the App App Store and then people can build Individual apps. Now the way that it works is that if you're, if you're a developer, which is not hard to, to learn to develop things on Roblox, you don't need to be a computer engineer for this. I mean, kids are doing it. And so if you, if you develop a game, you publish the game. There's no review.

[A]

You're publishing it inside of, inside of Roblox. Okay, so you're a layer deep into the onion.

[B]

Yeah. So Roblox just lets the game get published. So like as an example, when Charlie Kirk was, was assassinated, within days, there were first person shooter games in Roblox where you could reenact Charlie Kirk assassination.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Now there are, how is this pitched.

[A]

As a kids game, not the Charlie Kirk one aside.

[B]

But that's a great question. That is a great question. We'll get into that.

[A]

Because I thought until you said it was an environment to make things. I honestly, well, I, I, in my head I went to Minecraft, which is a world where you have blocks or whatever, and you, I mean, I know that's my own, I've never played it, but I've watched my kids play it. When they did, they're no longer interested.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I thought Roblox was a complete game in and of itself.

[B]

That's what I thought too. And I only started looking into this because we started to see specific mentions of Roblox within human trafficking advertisements. And I was like, that's weird. Why is this happening? Right? And, and so you had these human trafficking advertisements where you had traffickers posing as like prostitutes or something like that, saying, hey, hit me up on Roblox or Minecraft or whatever at these, at these gamer tags.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Well, that's really interesting. So, so like all the people who are like, oh, human trafficking is just prostitution and Nick is just this right wing Christian who's trying to keep us from having our fun. No, Will, we know from the Data that roughly 80% of what people think is, is prostitution is actually human trafficking. Like we, we know that definitively. So, you know, I, I actually saw Rogan was saying that he thinks prostitution should be legalized. That makes a lot of sense. And I actually used to think the same thing. I mean, doesn't it make sense to be like, oh, let's just legalize prostitution, we'll tax it, we'll, we'll regulate it and that'll do away with human trafficking? I mean, I used to think the same thing.

[A]

I understand the motivation behind it. Because you think it would remove the people Of Syria. Yeah.

[B]

Just bring it out in the open.

[A]

Yeah. Instead of being in the shadows if you want to do that. It's the same thing as, you know, drugs. Let's legalize all drugs. There'll be less crime to fight. People can live their life in a laissez faire fashion. I understand the, it's an altruistic motivation behind it I think. And, but again that's an academic principle that I'm not sure the real world fleshes out for.

[B]

No. So I started looking in the, looking into the data on the prostitution issue like it's not even up for debate. Every single country and even small area like Rhode island that had legalized prostitution ends up with an increase in human trafficking. It is linearly predictable. It happens every single time. And, and we're not talking like Liberty University did the study. I mean these are Harvard studies. These are, these are you know, very, very well established, even liberal academic institutions that are saying hey this, this is actually a really bad idea. You know the solution is something called decriminalization. But that's not, that's not what doing we're are. We're here to talk about. So, so this group 764, what they do is they, they target children that, that's their goal and they're very specifically trying to charge target somewhere between 12 and 14 years old. How do we know this? Because they have manuals that they've created where they're distributing their best practices for grooming children to get them under control through Roblox, through, through Roblox, Minecraft, Discord, other games as well. In fact they actually were putting out advert for specifically directed at kids who needed mental health counseling. Kid would click the link, they would start mental health counseling them and eventually then manipulate them and get them to do things that, that they would. Well we'll get into what they do and just a disclaimer. Parents, if your kids are listening.

[A]

Yeah. If you're dropping your kids off at school, maybe put it on pause.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pick it back up when they're, when you're by yourself.

[B]

Yeah. But also things are going to get gross. Gross. And I also, I'm torn on this because we need to have age appropriate conversations with our kids on one hand but also we need to help them understand that like these are some very real life altering things that are happening. And even if like my, my kid, we're a screen free house. My family, we, we send our kids to a, a screen free school. In fact my kids school. Remember the old projectors with the vis a vis markers. Oh, yeah, yeah. They still use those. Love it. There's not. There's not. There's not even a TV on the wall in their classrooms.

[A]

Nerd alert.

[B]

Yeah. Which is awesome.

[A]

Do you make your kids sew their own clothing?

[B]

No, not yet.

[A]

They churn their own butter. Do you have a cow that they will.

[B]

No, they milk. My wife really wants one.

[A]

You can milk anything with nipples, Greg. I have nipples. Can you milk me?

[B]

Anyway, so. So 764, they have this playbook that they use. And first is they. They specifically primarily target girls, but increasingly boys. And you remember our conversation last year? We're seeing an increase in sextortion of boys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That increase in sextortion of boys is still continuing. It's just that for a lot of the boys, it's going after kids that are like, don't have any friends, they don't have any community. They. They're very purposely trying to find the kid who's already isolated. Just like what happens with the gazelles and the lions in the wild. Right. So they're trying to find the kids who are isolated. They manipulate them and then eventually the very first thing that they're looking for is they want to get a nude from the child. Once they get the nude from the child, leverage, they. They start to sextort them. But what, what's primarily happening with. Happening with this extortion over the last year has been money related. Right. It's. It's a scammer. In Nigeria, they were. They're trying to get 100 bucks, 500 bucks, whatever the case is. What's really scary about these guys is that they are doing this for notoriety. So, and, and so like, if you were to pay them or, or the, the scammers in Nigeria is for the most part, they're probably not going to actually do the thing that they say they're going to do, which is, you know, we're going to distribute these nudes to your school Facebook and stuff like that. Right, right. These guys are. They absolutely will do that. And we've seen a number of kids committing suicide because of that. So they get the nudes and then they don't try to get money from them. They try to get them to do things. It starts with hurting themselves or cutting themselves. And when I say cutting, I'm not talking about like, you know, scratching into their arm with a staple, where I'm talking like with knives. Cutting like 764 deeply into their bodies or somebody's handle or name into Their bodies. They'll try to get the young girls to do it like into their breasts, arms, things like that. So they try to get them to do that. Then they, once, once they get them to do that, they escalate it to usually hurting or killing an ant animal. So they'll, they'll, the whole time during the grooming process as they're developing this relationship and they're patient, they are patient. They will take months, they'll take a year to do this. What they'll do is they'll get all this information. Do you have pets? You know, all of those things. And then they'll try to get them to hurt or kill a pet or, or an, a neighbor's pet. Right? They'll try to get them to do something to an animal. Animal. And once they get them to do something to an animal, then their ultimate goal is to try to get them to kill one of their family members or somebody else.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They're ultimately trying to get these children to commit murder. Now that's hard. Now it does happen.

[A]

I would hope so.

[B]

It does happen. But usually what they, what they take is kind of the consolation prize is get the child to kill themselves, which is usually the direction that this goes. So, and during, during that period of time, once. Now if they can get a kid who will do all of these things, but they won't kill themselves or, or hurt anybody else and they've kind of like got them to that level, but they, they can control them, get them to do whatever they want, then they'll sell them to each other. So say, hey, 1200 bucks, I have an 11 year old girl who you know, will cut herself on demand and will do, and will commit sexual acts on video. And then they'll, they'll sell that to another member and then they'll go trying to recruit another one or they'll go set it, sell them to pedophiles or things like that. And so literally as I understand it, it is, you know, the, the pedophile buys the, the child and then the 764 member says hey, you now work for him. And now the, the child will do whatever the pedophile wants him to do.

[A]

Is there any examples of where this is, there's real world crossover and these two people meet.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. And so oftentimes what will happen is just like we see in human trafficking now that whole selling of that, that is human trafficking. Like that is like now you have somebody with a economic incentive. And to me, me, I think one of the biggest when, when people are trying to figure out like what is human trafficking and what is just sick pedophile behavior. Even though under the law they can be combined for academic purposes, that's not real helpful. So to me it's when there's an economic incentive. So when it, when it, it goes from child exploitation to human trafficking to child trafficking is when that economic incentive comes along. But before that there was no economic incentive. Yeah, there's plenty of, of cases where 764 members have then met up with other members and now they kind of recruit them into the 764 organization. And as they do that, they actually have these basically counterintelligence methods is what they are to try to keep the cops out. Where you have to, you have to commit a crime in order to get into these forums. And we've seen that over, over history in the pedophile forums where you have to bring in, you know, child sexual abuse material in order to have your bona fetus. Yeah. In order to get, in order to get let in to the, to the servers.

[A]

So how big would you estimate the 764 group is?

[B]

The Bureau says they're about 3 to 4,000 people. Hackers I know say they're somewhere between 20 and 30,000.

[A]

That's a lot of really twisted people.

[B]

A lot of really twisted people. Hence the reason. Now keep in mind this entire thing is driven by anonymity on the Internet. You make anonymity on the Internet goes away. Go away. Not privacy, anonymity where you say have to show an ID in order to get your account. This whole thing goes away.

[A]

You know, it's that easy way around it.

[B]

You're always going to have people who find a way around things. Yeah but, but you're going to diminish.

[A]

Would be a hurdle that looks like a net and you would just be stacking people up inside of that net.

[B]

Yep. Okay. You would this goes away significantly. Right. So all right, where were you? So they, they, they create these things called lure books which is all of these different. Michael, your sign went off.

[A]

Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify. Do you have an idea, have you had an idea that has been nagging at you? A business idea and you want to jump in and take an idea from inception to execution and you want to play in the digital ecosystem and see if your idea holds water. Your business, your idea, both of those things. Or an in person perhaps as well too. If that's you 2026, don't wait any longer. Because 2027 is going to be around the corner in 28 and then you're going to look back with regret. Let's do this. Let's go. Pedal to the floor. 2026. Using Shopify to create your business for the world to see and find. This is such an easy ad read for me because I have gone through this process in Journey and I am not a tech guy. I understand how to turn on a laptop. I am limited, very much so, by the things that I see. I don't understand AI, I don't understand coding, I don't understand graphics and imagery and all of those things. And that's okay because I was able to make my own business website years ago using Shopify. I'm still hosted with them today. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person. Millions of entrepreneurs have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners that are just getting started. Shopify is going to give you all the tools to easily build your dream store. You can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize to match your brand. And that is exactly what I did. They have free templates and premium templates. I purchased a premium template and thankfully this couldn't be easier. What do you want it to look like? Where would you like some imagery? Where would you like the text? And of course you can modify all of these things. Multiple pages, hyperlinks and I'm talking about this stuff like I. I know what it is. No, I used this tool to create the website that I have now. Setup is easy and fast with Shopify's built in AI tools that write product descriptions and headlines and help you edit product photos. Marketing is built in as well. You can create email and social campaigns that reach customers wherever they scroll. And as you grow, Shopify can grow with you. You can handle more orders, expand to new markets and do it all from the same dashboard. I have experience with all of this. I cannot recommend it enough. It's about to be 2026. Stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com that is shopify.com ClearedHot one more time. Shopify.com ClearedHot Hear your first Cha Ching Shopify sales sound this new year. With Shopify by your side. Back to the show. Maybe it's broken. It might be.

[B]

I think it is.

[A]

Okay, carry on. Well, you're in the camera frame so we can't. That's okay. That song is getting ready to be Retired in about two weeks anyway.

[B]

Perfect. All right, well, there you go.

[A]

I don't know what you did, but we'll call it your fault somehow that that happened.

[B]

Came here.

[A]

Sorry, people, I don't have a glowing studio.

[B]

Broke your sign. Wait till you see what I do next.

[A]

Well, you didn't break the sign. Your information did. Because it's so ridiculously disgusting that the sign was like, I don't want to hear anymore of this.

[B]

I'm out. Yeah, so they create these things called lure books. These 764 members do. And what it is, is it's, it's trying to. All this stuff that we talked about, it's. They're, they're just getting more and more dirt on the individual, which leads to. Right. I mean, we're talking young kids here. So it leads to more and more control of that individual leverage. Right? So they think that, okay, if I kill my cat, these guys are going to leave me alone down. And, and the. What's crazy about this whole notoriety thing, right? It's, it's that they want to, like, they want them to kill the cat on camera and hold up like a sign with somebody's like, username or a764 or one of the like on any of the splinter groups that come out of those things. And so, like that. That's ultimately what they're, what they're looking for, for. And how do you fight that? You can't fight it really economically. You. So your, your options are pretty limited.

[A]

Yeah, that's all about control.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so anyway, we talked about them selling these kids virtually. So, so that, that's, that's kind of what's happening with this group. But what I think it's really important and the reason I started with that is that group is a symptom of what we're about to talk about, which is, is Roblox, Minecraft, Discord, Internet anonymity, like that. That's the symptom. And for all you privacy Nazis out there are like, well, that's just the price of, of having privacy. Like, shame on you. Like, you're bad people. If, if the price of you thinking that Big Brother is listening to your phone calls or, or staying, you know, completely anonymous on the Internet is that, you know, children are, you know, committing suicide, being raped, being exploited. Like, sorry, that's a price I'm not willing to pay. And I, I really question the morals and ethics of anybody who is willing to, to pay that price. Right. Is willing to accept that price so when.

[A]

Well, they're willing to accept that price unless you were to confront them with it was one of their kids or family members.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was being victimized or that would lose their life because of that.

[B]

Yeah. And, and I think that we will see. Unfortunately, this is eventually going to happen to the wrong person's kid and they're going to have nothing left and it's going to be someone like us and it's going to make man on Fire look like a follow documentary. Like that's going to happen.

[A]

I'm considering writing that fiction book, by the way. Jack Carr is a little bit ahead of me, but I've been seriously considering the idea of writing a book about somebody who the government has poured millions of dollars into and they finally just, just snap.

[B]

So Tyler Maine, you know who that is? No. Michael Myers.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So Tyler's kind of become a friend over the years. He just released a graphic novel series called Red Tape. By the way, if you buy his book, a portion of that proceeds comes to deliver.

[A]

Oh hell yeah.

[B]

And so Red Tape is all about how some guy who the government poured millions of dollars into training and has really nothing else to live for. And a law enforcement officer who's really tired of all the red tape of going after bad guys and they go after him Punisher, Punisher style.

[A]

So it is a movie plot that would sell in a book that would sell. But I also think that it is possible that it actually does happen too.

[B]

There, there are rumors of cases, obviously I don't, I don't have any first hand knowledge of anything, but there's, there's definitely rumors of those cases.

[A]

The wrong person will snap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By the wrong person, I mean the right person.

[B]

Yeah, It's a symptom. And so like the, The FBI declared 764 as a, as a domestic terror organization, as they always do. They did it too late, but they did it. Okay, great. Well, you know as well as anybody, once you add the words terror or terrorism to something, a whole new checkbook opens up and a whole new set of authorities opens up. So they'll get to the bottom of this cell 7, 6, 4 thing like that that is going to happen. It's not going to be drone strikes, unfortunately, because a lot of the, a lot of the, the people involved are minors, 17 year olds, 16 year olds, 15 year olds. I'm not saying there aren't adults obviously with that many people. There's a number of adults, but there's a lot of minors as well. Just very sick, twisted I like to use the word demonic because I cannot think of a better word board. And so when we talk about Roblox specifically, like, why am I so honed in on Roblox? It's because I believe it is a platform that can't be recovered. The liability that is. That is over that platform is virtually incalculable. Because if. If I can just go create a game and deploy that game on Roblox with zero oversight. Well, there are these things in Roblox called condo games where they have. Have basically pedophiles that are doing underage strip shows within the game. We talked about the, you know, Charlie Kirk assassination and stuff. There are school shooting reenactments. Like you can go to somebody's game and reenact Columbine. I mean, really sick stuff. Lots of neo Nazism extremism on every side over every issue. And so what you're. What you're seeing with this. I don't remember who said it. It wasn't me. But what we're seeing in society right now is what somebody that I read somewhere called it salad bar extremism. Where, I mean, you think about it, you have like, gays for Palestine. It's like, go to Palestine as a gay person. See how that works out for you.

[A]

Like, not.

[B]

Well, yeah, like, you. You will see whether or not you can fly as they throw you off a building. Building, or light you on fire or God knows what they're, you know, horrific things are going to do to you. And so. But, like, that's a great example of this, like, salad bar extremism. Like, anybody who understands either side of that, it just does not make sense.

[A]

So this is. So what? Michael just pulled up. What is this? Just. What, blood?

[B]

I just went to Roblox and typed in Columbine.

[A]

Did you just log in under my name?

[B]

No, this isn't even logged in. This is just the home page.

[A]

Okay. How much of this issue do you think that Roblox is aware of?

[B]

All of it. And let's get into that.

[A]

Where are they based?

[B]

You know, I don't know where their headquarters is. They're. They were a Canadian company, but they are publicly traded. They're on the New York Stock Exchange.

[A]

Yeah, Michael's about to find out where they're based.

[B]

Yeah, I hear. So if you. If you hold this stock, get rid of this stock. If you hold this stock and you don't get rid of this stock after hearing this, you are part of the problem.

[A]

Headquarters are in San Mateo, California.

[B]

But isn't the isn't the CEO. And that might either was Canadian or he possibly.

[A]

And that might just be a building where they get right now anyway.

[B]

And that's. And that's largely because they. Yep, that's him.

[A]

How do you say that?

[B]

Bass, Zucky, Bazooki.

[A]

Bazooki.

[B]

Yeah. So let's get into David. So you just asked like why, why.

[A]

How much are they aware.

[B]

Why am I saying how much they are aware of? Okay, so let's get into that.

[A]

Canadian born American entrepreneur.

[B]

Okay. Oh, so what, what is. So for anybody who wants to know what Roblox is, if you could go back to Roblox. So Roblox is a game that is marketed to children primarily, even though they're trying to grow their. They're trying to grow their, their adult audience. Okay, right. They're adult users. You know, lots of like solid operators who like to play video games. 100 right.

[A]

Happens all the time.

[B]

It was, it was never my thing. Yeah, right. But, but like a lot of dudes, that, that was what they did.

[A]

Yeah. They hook up the computers, especially when you got a bunch of downtime. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They're just like playing Call of Duty in the team room or whatever. Right. Does that look like a game that any of those dudes would want to play?

[A]

Play?

[B]

No, no, this is a kids game. So as much as old David wants to say that, oh, we're growing our adults and all that, like, no, this is a kids game. And he, he says you can tell.

[A]

By the way that what we're looking at the. What's attractive about. And I obviously I'm speaking for myself and I'm not a huge video game player either. I've had phases in my life. But the Battlefield series, using it as an example, what people like about it is it goes through, through history in genres and time in specific theaters.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It trends towards hyper realism, which is I think what adults are generally looking for. This is the opposite. This is the cubed, the color, the cartoonish that kids are looking for.

[B]

What do they call it? Anime. Yeah, I think.

[A]

What did you just find?

[B]

So, yeah, so like an example of this is what. This is what the games look like. And again, the reason why I said.

[A]

Earlier, like people built these.

[B]

Yeah. That you don't need to be a, a computer engineer is because look at the graphics. Look at this. I mean this is not hardcore computer engineering like you would see on like Electronic Arts. It is to me or something like that. If you decided to put your mind to it, you could learn how to build these inside of a day.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. It's just not that hard. And most people tell you like anybody who can program in Unity could figure this thing out inside of a natural hour.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean it's just, it's just not that difficult. And that's, that's part of their business model. Like they can't have it. So that it's extremely difficult to deploy a game and to build a game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That would drive you. Can you check? I want to say there's over 10,000 games. It might actually be a lot higher than that. Maybe it's just 10,000 games in America. But you can see like this kind of stuff is being marketed to, you know, five and six year olds. Seven. Wow. Some estimates pointing to around 40 million experiences available.

[A]

40 million what?

[B]

Experiences as an experience in a game. The same.

[A]

That's. Either way, that's a big number. It's big. That's a large number.

[B]

So. So it's a kid's game.

[A]

Says the CEO.

[B]

Says the CEO as much. So if you're the CEO and all this information is coming out. Oh, and by the way, these Roblox is now under either a criminal or civil suit from a number of attorneys generals across the United States. I think South Carolina just got involved. Taxes, lawsuits. Yeah. Texas, Florida. I think Kentucky got involved. Louisiana. The Louisiana Attorney general. I think his filing was a criminal subpoena. So like this is not just Nick saying this. Like this is, this is getting this.

[A]

Kind of dozens of lawsuits primarily from families and several U.S. state attorneys to general. Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Plat over allegation. This platform facilitates child sexual exploitation, grooming and addiction.

[B]

Yeah. Texas, Louisiana, Kentucky, Iowa, Tennessee, Florida. And there's a couple more that they're missing here that are, that are brand new. So. So this like the CEO is very aware this is happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So I want to.

[A]

Well, this is interesting. Some of the things that it's under the child sexual exploitation specifically it mentions inadequate safety measures, facilitating off platform harm, misrepresentation and it's being taken at a state level action. So yeah, those all cascade into one another.

[B]

So you would look at this and be like, oh, this is probably a new game where things got out of control. They've been around since 2005. Been around for 20 years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So not a new game where things got out of control. Now the CEO says, well, you don't understand the scale of the problem that we have here. Like that's some kind of excuse. I mean what I learned from leadership is that you can Delegate authority, but never responsibility. And so their, their excuse is, well, we just have this huge scale problem and look at all these kids that are having a great time and they're learning stem as they like to say.

[A]

Yeah, but until you can control the size of the shadow, those kids might need to go to traditional learning mediums to get that knowledge. Until you can protect them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like at what cost is what it comes back to.

[B]

It's the same thing with that. So the, the company that I talked about who had was the. The tent pole that's holding up the commercial sex trafficking industry.

[A]

The burner from one.

[B]

Yeah. The company is providing the burner phones. They're publicly traded company as well, by the way. That means they're on notice because there's. There's some recourse there. Yeah. That you can do to. To get their attention. So that company, I contacted one of the founders, he got upset with me and I, I contacted him with definitive proof that this was happening. And he told me what one. If you can't attack the message, what do you do?

[A]

You attack the messenger.

[B]

Messenger. So he starts attacking me. I'm a pretty easy person to Google and I'm not the most credible person but like when it comes to this issue, I'm pretty credible. And so he attacks me. He gets upset with me for sending him this information. Now if I had started a company and I thought that even one child was being exploited on the backbone of my technology, I'm shutting the whole company down until we get that person problem fixed. The whole thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you're not willing to do that, then you are praying to the God of money over the protection of children.

[A]

That is a SKUs that away in a variety of different.

[B]

Oh, they always do.

[A]

But it doesn't mean it's not shareholder.

[B]

Doesn't mean it's not true.

[A]

Well, you notice I open with they will excuse that away.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

There's a variety of way. You know, it's a scale issue. We don't know how to wrap our arms around it. Look at the good.

[B]

Yeah. It's not happening at the level you think. Right. Right. So. So this is why I say Roblox is irrecoverable. Because the CEO is fully aware of all of this right now. If you're the CEO, even if. Let's just say you're in on it, you're gonna, you're gonna say the smart things. Right. So November of this year, the CEO.

[A]

Did a like last month.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So the, the very recent he did a interview with what's called the Hard Fork Podcast, which is a New York Times podcast. Right. And they asked him about Roblox's predator problem. And I wrote this down. So this is a direct quote, so he can't sue me for saying a direct quote. What Bouzouki said was, quote, we think of it being the predator problem, not necessarily just as a problem, but an opportunity as well.

[A]

An opportunity to do what? The only answer that better be solve it.

[B]

How do we allow young people to build, communicate, and hang out together? That is the full response.

[A]

That's a really weird combination of words, isn't it though? Yeah.

[B]

So let's see why he maybe would think that in the same interview, they said, hey, as a joke. And I went, I went and watched this interview because it's like, there's clearly, there's some context that's being missed here.

[A]

Yeah, written word can be, you know, what tone do we get? Is there sarcasm? I can't pick up.

[B]

So the podcast interview hosts were. You could tell they were kind of just trying to throw him a softball. And they said they asked him about gambling in Roblox. Right. And he said, quote, it sounds very fun and obvious. I love that. So then the podcast host goes back and it's like, no, no, like, I'm joking. It's a. It's a. It's a horrible idea. And Bouzouki just doubled down on it and he said, quote, it's a brilliant idea if it can be done in an educational way. That's legal.

[A]

He sold that straight face. Like he.

[B]

Straight faced. Okay, straight faced. So he believes that Predators is the.

[A]

Face of the company that said that publicly?

[B]

Yes, that's on camera.

[A]

That's a bold move.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm like, man, if I was their legal counsel, I'd be like, put that guy in glass and don't let him talk to anybody ever.

[A]

And maybe don't air that episode. If you could get them to shut that down, you probably should.

[B]

It's out there so you can pull it up. It's Hard Fork Podcast. David Bouzucki.

[A]

Yeah, I've got it.

[B]

I'm just trying to find the exact. So then, so now he said that predators are an opportunity without qualifying that statement. The qualification for the statement was, how do we allow young people to build, communicate, and hang out together? Which what you'll find in all of this is that he fundamentally believes that it is okay for strange adults to be talking to children they don't know. And how do we know that? So child gam. Childhood gambling. Totally fine. So then, well, how long has he been saying this kind of stuff? Well, at the Roblox developers conference in 2023, he made 10 predictions, you know, for the next five years, right until 2028. And his eighth prediction stated, Thousands of 17+ users will meet for the first time in Roblox dating experiences and subsequently form real life relationships. So here's a guy who repeatedly, time and time and time again admits that Roblox is a game for children, who just said that he wants Roblox to become a dating experience in 2023. For, for people who are 17. Last I checked, 17 is a minor.

[A]

So this is the gambling. Probably got to do the volume on the tv.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If it can be done in an educational way, I actually think it's a brilliant idea.

[B]

Idea.

[A]

If it can be done in an educational way, that's legal. And so imagine a no, no free Robux, no free prizes, just a game called the Dress to Impress Predictor where it's not like trying to get kids money or anything like that. I would be a big fan of it. Interesting. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, it gets worse. It gets worse. So, so let's go back even Farther. July of 2023, GameDaily Biz was doing an interview with him and they asked if Roblox would ever allow nudity on its platform. And what's so funny is these are, these are like soft interviews very clearly put together by PR teams and they're supposed to be very friendly interviews and things like that. Like Bouzouki's not going on freaking Rogan or the Sean Ryan podcast or sitting here or somewhere where somebody might ask him some hard questions. Right. I mean these, these are, these are layups.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the guy can't even, can't even like, I mean he, he just says what's on his mind.

[A]

Very clear. I was going to say he might not even be trying to pitch a message. He might just be answering honestly.

[B]

He is answer answering honestly. Yeah, that's my whole point. So in Jan. In in game, in the game. Daily interview of July of 2023, he was asked if Roblox would ever allow nudity on its platform. And it's very clear they were asking that as like, like you'd never allow nudity. Right. What it, what was his direct quote? I would never rule it out. Like you just can't make this stuff up. So he says, I would never rule it out quote based on the company's long term view of Mirroring real life activities and enthusiasms. What does that mean? While also maintaining safe boundaries, adding. And then he added, he said getting to that kind of stuff probably isn't in the short term future for us. So you want to mirror real life activities and enthusiasms with the game that we saw that looks like a five year old developed it.

[A]

Why would any parent let their kid on the site?

[B]

Isn't that the question? And, and there are some parents right now who are allowing their kids to play Roblox who didn't know. And that's not your fault.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now you do know. If you continue to allow your child to play the game, you are one, exposing your child to untold amount of danger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Two, you are financially supporting a platform that allows this to happen. And, and, and has this built in. So, so what Roblox says is that they're going to, you know, they've got some age verification software, facial recognition software that they're rolling out in 2025 that requires. And like I'm very familiar with how that technology works. I mean at Deliver Fund we actually built a biometric system that does this kind of thing on, on the human trafficking fight. So very familiar with. Requires you to take a photo. Essentially it's not really a photo, but measurements which is basically a photo of an individual's face. Are you letting this guy take a photo of your child's face?

[A]

Lead first and foremost with safety and civility and then second with mirroring what happens in the physical world. Hit pause. Michael, what is the word civility doing in that sense? Sentence.

[B]

Right. So safety and civility is always the thing he leans back on. He's like, oh, you know, we really just want to have a lot of safety and civility.

[A]

What? What?

[B]

I don't know if he's talking about.

[A]

Like things like nudity will ever be allowed on roblox. What I would say is we would lead first and foremost with safety and civility and then second with mirroring what happens in the physical world. And so I would never. There's a lot of really terrible things that happen in the physical world. What I don't understand, it seems like.

[B]

But they're hearing that the Charlie Kirk shooter, the school shootings. Right.

[A]

I don't understand. It seems like the platform is trying to become everything educational. Gambling, a place for people to learn. Stem, young people can meet up. Dating, maybe new. What's going on? Is this a gaming platform for kids or is this supposed to be the end all. Be all of the Internet?

[B]

So it's very Clear. Obviously haven't talked to old David. I'd love to sit down and have a chat.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know if he would do that.

[B]

My guess is if he showed up to have a conversation with us, he would bring a lot of security with him.

[A]

It doesn't help when it comes to answering questions.

[B]

Nope. But I think that he is really trying to position Roblox as the next meta.

[A]

Yeah, that would make more sense given what it is he's, you know, he's leaving the door or window, whatever metaphor you want open to everything.

[B]

But think about how terrifying that is when it comes to the safety of children. Yeah, I mean it's, it, it's programatized exploitation of children at scale. And that's, I mean that, that's sad. So like they've been around for 20 years and so there are things that, I mean you look at 7, 6, 4 group, they very specifically are trying not to get caught. They're trying to see, you know, they're, they're trying to exploit children. They're, they're, I mean you could find them on the Internet. Don't go look for them just because at that point you're just kind of.

[A]

Dragging to your own Google before you do that. Michael.

[B]

But you can, you can find their grooming manuals and things in different hacker forums and whatnot. Like it's all public domain, it's all there. It's, it's kind of hard to find, but you can find it. And those guys are very specifically saying Roblox is the place, you know, one of the, the best places to go find, to go find miners.

[A]

And there's a reason why they're saying that.

[B]

Yeah, there is. And so they have. And so do we honestly believe that if they've been around for 20 years and they've, and, and this pedophile problem, which 764 just takes to a whole new level. They've known about for, you know, half a decade, a decade, and they haven't done anything meaningful about it. Are we honestly to believe that they're going to do anything meaningful about it in the future? And that what's really interesting is when you look at their business model you can start to understand why they would never allow moderation of the games before they got published. Because that would, that would create this huge backlog of games. They would have to hire all kinds of people. That's going to cut into their profit margins.

[A]

They'd also have to rubber stamp it.

[B]

Yeah. And so they're, and they're I want to say their price to earnings ratio is like 13. Can you check that? So like Electronic Arts as an example. I mean, that's publicly traded. Pretty well established gaming company, I would say. I mean, I remember ea, the Madden franchise. Yeah. Back in the day when I was a kid. They've got a price to earnings ratio of like five. And I want to say Roblox was like 13 or somewhere around there says.

[A]

Oh, currently has a negative price to earnings ratio. They've been posting losses rather than earnings or rather than profits.

[B]

This may be just because of the recent. Yeah, that might just be because of the recent stuff.

[A]

Stuff. I'd be very pleased to hear that.

[B]

That'd be amazing. Let's go pre. If, if you, if you pull up, if you pull up there. Actually, I made, Let me see if I can find it.

[A]

Those are all negative.

[B]

No, no, I'm sorry. Not, not PE ratio. I must be thinking of their, their price to sales ratio. They're, they're, they're, they're, they're stock sales.

[A]

Y ratio.

[B]

Ratio. Yeah. So at one point it was 40.

[A]

Okay, now we're back in the money.

[B]

Yeah. What, what? 2024 topped out at 10.4, 10.8, 10.2. Like, like 12.5.

[A]

Huge.31 in 2021.

[B]

Which, which means that Wall street is basically just saying that, oh, this is just a growth story. Like, this is just a growth story. They're just like, they're just gonna keep skyrocketing and parents who are allowing their children to play this game. Right. And, and there's a, there's a. I mean there's, there's. Roblox obviously makes a lot of money off of this. Yeah, the, the way that they're allowing.

[A]

Their hit five year on that, Michael. Yeah.

[B]

The way that they're allowing the children to play the game. They're incentivizing this behavior. So you can see even in 2025, even with all the bad news, and.

[A]

I spike towards the tail end of 2025.

[B]

Yeah. I made a graph that I can't, I can't find where I actually overlaid all the events. Yeah. And it just continued to grow. And actually part of that I put on Wall Street. Street. Right. So Wall street investors and I, I gotta imagine with your following, there's at least a few that are listening here. Like if you, if you're looking at the decrease in Starbucks or in. Sorry. In Roblox.

[A]

Freudian slip. Do you need another coffee?

[B]

Well, now you can, you can tell, you can Tell some of the trade, some of the trading I might have been doing recently. But if you're, if you're looking at the, the drop in Roblox stock price as a buying opportunity, shame on, on you. Absolute shame on you.

[A]

You should just be. If you know.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

[A]

If you're listening to this, I'll give you a little bit of grace.

[B]

Yeah. For sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I used to be invested in a, in a venture fund that held Roblox. I, I, I exited. The venture fund is one of the earliest, earliest investors in Roblox. I didn't know. Right. And then once I started finding all this out, I went through every single fund I'm part of of looked at their portfolio and I found that this, this one venture fund was, it's an aggregate venture fund.

[A]

Yeah. But still peripherally involved.

[B]

Yeah. And it, it was, it was. They were one of the early investors in Roblox and I dumped the entire fund.

[A]

The more you know, the more you can do. And again I don't blame, I get it.

[B]

We, if you don't know, you don't know.

[A]

You all see parents out there with the phone and the iPad is the ticket. And maybe I would have gone down that path if my kids were younger. At the age that they are now. Like I get get it. But that doesn't excuse you from burying your head in the sand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you know better, you can do better. And I'll give you a bunch of grace up until the point where you know better. You know, the judgment, internal and external starts once you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because then you don't get to bury your head in the sand anymore.

[B]

And God forbid a parent knows and they just don't want, they just don't want to fight with their child over taking away Roblox and then something happens to their child. Could you imagine living with that?

[A]

That?

[B]

No, like I, I couldn't. Like I have no idea how I would take my next breath.

[A]

So how does this tie into things like Minecraft? Does Minecraft have an economy like this as well? Because I've heard stories of Minecraft worlds are being built inside of that where, which are experiential where things like this can live inside of the platform.

[B]

So. Yes. But the reason I don't go after Minecraft is hard is because it appears that they're actually trying. And Minecraft is not something where I don't believe the, the tech, the technology can probably be recovered if the company does the right things. Right. Roblox cannot be recovered.

[A]

You should get past that tipping point, I believe.

[B]

I just think that fundamentally the way their technology works, they just need to be burned to the ground. It's, it's really that simple people. And so when you look at everybody who, who like you know, the 764 is convincing kids who are lonely with probably some underlying mental illness issues to light themselves on fire to commit suicide on, on camera. Right. So if you are paying into Roblox, if you're an investor in Roblox like that and, and you know this stuff now that blood is on your hands. I mean there, there is just, there is just no other, no other way around it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you know, meta with a lot of the stuff that is going on with meta, obviously they have a massive scale issue but their underlying technology probably allows them to get this, this situation under control. And this is actually where, you know, I, I get really torn because I'm a pretty anti government regulation guy because I think when the government gets involved it usually just tends to make things worse. But there are times and places where we need that the anti money laundering laws we have. Right. Keeps a lot of crime at bay. We do need some regulation around the Internet Communications decency Act. Rule 230 does need to be revised for the modern era.

[A]

That's the one that provides protection for the hosting platform, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So somebody says something bad about me in a comment on YouTube, I can't sue YouTube for their comment. I can see that individual responsible for.

[A]

What would you change it to? What changes would you make?

[B]

That's probably a better question for people a lot smarter than me. I can say generally the direction I would like to see it is where if you have the identity of the individual who's under that account. Right. So account, I don't know, lifted Cummins 1983. Right. Says something bad about me and I say, okay, I want to sue that person. YouTube can tell me who that person is or tell my lawyer or a judge sends a subpoena or whatever and the legal system can find out who that person is. Right now they're like, we have no idea. They were on a VPN that was running them through Egypt. And yeah, we got, we got no idea. So that I think is. And that's not just going to solve this problem. That's going to solve all kinds of problems. Right. The other day, a great example, I'm standing in the ski lift line with.

[A]

My kids and I got snow up there.

[B]

What snow? Yeah, we had a flood you mean the Class 3 rapids that were coming down through the so strong.

[A]

Before we went to Costa Rica, it was nuking. We're gonna come back to feet of fresh powder. Flood warning.

[B]

Yeah. You have feet of slop. Yeah, it's at the, the top of the ant hill. As, as you come off of chair one, it's like my, I, I look down and you know, because my, my daughter just got brand new skis and so I'm working her through it and, and it's, it's, it's not like icy, it's ice. And that it is blue, like blue ice. And she's asking me how to get over this thing. And I was like, sweetie, you just got to point them down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And as soon as it turns white, go ahead and dig those edges in. Yeah.

[A]

And just fall over if you need to as well. Yeah.

[B]

So anyway, we're standing in line and a couple of teenagers being complete jerks. And I had to think twice because I have my ski pass on the side of my helmet. It says Nick McKinley, 47 years old with my picture. Yep. And so I was like, like just gonna go ahead and swallow this. Try to be a good example for my kids and not say what I want to say. Because it's real easy for everybody around here to see exactly who I am. I'm not anonymous, you know, with my, my helmet and goggles.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think where we need to trend towards with CDA230 is that that platforms can continue to operate the way that they, they currently operate. We obviously need to put some child protection regulations and things like that in place to keep these things from happening. But generally the platform needs to know who is on their platform.

[A]

Yeah. It can't be a one way mirror.

[B]

That, that also, that also, that, that also solves your bot, bot traffic problem. It solves a lot of your like, you know, overseas dude, even on X.

[A]

When he fired up that you can see where the account is based, it changed discourse.

[B]

People im, they're like, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[A]

Piss off, dude. I'm not even going to engage with this person anymore. Because you can tell they're an antagonist from somewhere else.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Trying to present themselves as an expert locally. It's like, piss off.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And so, so like that, that was, that's a great example of what we.

[A]

Can do is they started going a layer deeper and taking a look at it. And then all of a sudden the white noise kind of dials itself down a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. Because you Know when. When you don't have anonymity, people. And when you don't have anonymity, then that means people have consequences for their actions. And if you. If people have potential consequences for their actions, they just are going to act in a more. In a more civil way or they're going to tend to do less crime things. The only people other than you got the, like, super privacy weirdos. Those. You know, the people who I actually were used to, believe it or not, I used to work with some of them at the CIA. I was like, bro, you have a security clearance from the CIA and you think you're off the grid, but they'll.

[A]

Never be off the grid for the rest of your life.

[B]

Yeah, they wouldn't. They wouldn't fly to a training location. They would drive because they. They didn't want to. Actually, this guy was a seal. You probably know who I'm talking about. Lives in Maine. Okay. He was a damn neck guy from the, like, early 2000s, I think is when he. When he got out.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But he. He said he didn't want to subject himself to the tyranny of tsa. I was like, dude, you subjected yourself to the tyranny of a security clearance. Like, that wasn't awesome.

[A]

So TSA checks your bag. They even let you keep your shoes on. Now, I think tyranny needs to mean something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if we use that word, and.

[B]

That'S not what it means.

[A]

It means sometimes you take your laptop and of your backpack, which, I mean, a lot of the stuff they do is ridiculous, but maybe let's choose that.

[B]

We know it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So anyway, the point is, like, you have the people like that who are this like, hyper privacy awareness stuff. And you know what? I'm willing to sacrifice you as collateral damage to solve this problem.

[A]

What else are you seeing? What else you got on that iPad?

[B]

Oh, man, I. I could go. I mean, we could go on for days. You hear about Brand Army?

[A]

Never heard of it.

[B]

Oh, yeah, of course, you wouldn't have. So Brand Army. Is you familiar with what only fans is? It's like, okay, only fans for anybody who's not aware of it is like amateur pornography for adults.

[A]

The democratization of adult content is how people describe it.

[B]

Okay, yeah, that's actually a great way to.

[A]

Anybody can be a content creator if they so choose direct to consumer dtc.

[B]

If you will, to include traffickers. So there are no. We know for sure there are traffickers who figured out, wait a minute. I can take my girls. I can. I can make them do porn on only fans and I get to keep the money.

[A]

And do they allow like full porn on only fans?

[B]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I can keep the money and then I file taxes and I have a legitimate source of income. And so the trafficking community has gotten that figured out. Brand army is an only fans for young teens.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Now they don't allow pornography and they don't allow full nudity. And they have these like weird ratios of like, for every bikini shot of like a 12 year old, you have to post like five normal photos.

[A]

Who's looking for a bikini shot of a 12 year old?

[B]

Isn't that a, like, why can this thing even exist as a business?

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And there are, there are parents who are putting their children on this platform and making money from it.

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

Nope, it's a, that, that's a very real thing. And these, a lot of these children, especially the younger girls, are being groomed by using Brand army so that the transition to only fans when they turn 18 is pretty linear here.

[A]

Who are these parents?

[B]

And that, and that's, that's just, that's just kind of a general. I understand pornography is something that people struggle with. I understand that pornography is a tech, is protected by the First Amendment. Like I get all that. And it's still true that if you engage in the pornography industry, you are feeding money into essentially the glacier that becomes the stream of child trafficking. Like that. That's just a true statement. And I know that makes, especially given that this is probably a lot of soft bros and stuff that are listening to this. And you know, people like that, we all know their penchant for some kind of weird stuff on the pornography side.

[A]

Some of them.

[B]

Some of them, yeah. But, but that statement probably made some people feel pretty uncomfortable. But it doesn't change the fact that, that it's a true statement. It's just like everything we talked about with Roblox. There's a lot of parents who are going to be listening to this and they're going to, in the back of their mind, their child is in the back of their car on a road trip for Christmas playing Roblox.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're gonna, and they're sitting there thinking about like, do I take it? Do I not take it? Is Nick overblowing this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and I'll tell everybody, like, I just wanted to put the information out there. Go do your own research. I mean we, we could have of, we could have a year's worth of podcasts for multiple hours. Each one Just talking about the issues that we, that we glanced over. I mean, it's the tip of the proverbial iceberg. And so people need to understand that if you're participating in these industries, you're participating in the very platforms and the very reasons why these children are being exploited. Right. Why is there even a market for this brand army thing? Like, like, why can that even exist as a business? What does that say about us as a society? That it can, it can be a viable business?

[A]

And what are these parents telling themselves in the mirror that getting to a place where and again live their life however you want to make the choices you want to, there's consequences to good and bad. But I mean, I think about my own kids. I only have one daughter. Like, there's no world where I would think that that would lead to something that would be enriching or.

[B]

Yeah. Healthier, beneficial. Yeah.

[A]

I, I actually think it's a really good thing when people are confronted with uncomfortable concepts or ideas. Sit with that for a bit and ask yourself what makes you uncomfortable about it? Is it because you have, is it, does it strike a nerve with you or you just like child pornography? That should make everyone uncomfortable. I think now, if you're not participating and not involved in that ecosystem. Yeah, good. Feel uncomfortable with that and spread that level of uncomfort anywhere else. Something like this, or you hear that you may be in a way like third party or not even intentionally helping support this. Sit with that level of uncomfortableness and then do something about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the more you know, the better you can do.

[B]

So let me give you a good example. Cathie woods owns over 5% of Roblox.

[A]

Who's Kathy Woods?

[B]

Cathie woods is a, shall we call it, dynamic personality of an investor. She's, you know, hit some balls and hit some strikes and me too, and, and so. But she owns over 5% of Roblox. She has not said a word publicly about this. Not a single word.

[A]

Has she been confronted publicly about it?

[B]

Not that I know of. Now I'd like to extend her some grace and say, okay, Kathy, maybe you're using your power and your, your position in the company to affect change behind the curtains quietly because you feel like that's the best way to get things done.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like I, I'll believe that. Every person that I know who knows Kathy says that probably is not the case. And so I think too many people think that, well, this is just an overblown issue or it's such, it's such a Small percentage. One we're seeing that it's not a small percentage that is increasingly coming out. I mean, why is it that you have, you know, the, the Attorney General of Louisiana launching a criminal case against Roblox, but they're not launching a criminal case against Google?

[A]

So I would imagine because they had a cacophony, a growing swell of people where it became unavoidable to that person.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

At a threat to their job.

[B]

Exactly. So that's why. Because they're elected politicians. So why are they willing to go pick that fight? Well, the only reason they're willing to go pick that fight is because they're incentivized to do so. Because it's actually that big of a problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So okay, why hasn't Kathy just come out and said, I don't care if it's at a loss. It's obviously not a loss since they went public in, what was it, 20, 21. I mean, you can see the graph. It's not going to be a loss. But why, why has she not dumped it? BlackRock, I think, I think, is it BlackRock, who's a pretty major shareholder of Roblox. Like, why have they not dumped the stock? Why have they not.

[A]

Well, at this point, I believe they own everything.

[B]

Yeah, that's probably.

[A]

You hear their name associated with real estate. Vrbo. I mean, you name it. If there's an investment opportunity, BlackRock, seems.

[B]

They'Re in it, they're at it.

[A]

But I mean, also, that's what they do.

[B]

That's what they do.

[A]

And that doesn't mean you have to partake, participate again. Once you know better, you can do better.

[B]

And this would be a rounding error for them if they were right. So if you look at like, who.

[A]

Who are they own 39.38 million to 39.4 shares of Roblox.

[B]

Yeah. So 5% of the company more than her. Yeah, Well, I don't, I don't know if it's quite more than her. I thought Kathy owned 5.63%.

[A]

Recent filings showing a 14% percent increase in their stake. So they are buying more.

[B]

Like, if you're the, if you're the CEO of Roblox or of BlackRock, like, shame on you, man. Like, children are dying at the money that you invest. Like, at what point are we as a society gonna say, you know what? Enough is enough, and it is no, like, we are not going to make money on the backbone of companies that are hurting children. We're not going to invest in CE CEOs who say that they wouldn't rule out having nudity on a child's game. We're not going to invest in CEOs who say that they want to see their child's. The, The. The game that they made for children turn into a dating platform for minors. Right. 17 years old is what Bouzouki said.

[A]

That is a minor term for minor should be high school.

[B]

It. There shouldn't be a. Yeah, there shouldn't be a electronic.

[A]

Yeah, go live your life. There's your dating platform.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's, you know, I don't know, stands at the football game or, or whatever. It's. It's not. It's not. It's not a child's game.

[A]

And so do you ever. When you get real. Not that I'm an optimist or a pessimist. I've been described as both. Glass half full, glass half empty. I believe the glass is refillable, so it doesn't really matter where you're starting from. But sometimes when I'm being pessimistic, I wonder if there even is a line where people would say, that's too much. Or are we, by design, so bombarded just to keep your head down, to survive so that we never get the chance to collectively look up and take a stand against stuff like that.

[B]

I think that the way that we distribute information in the modern era is too controlled. And so, so if. If Kathy wants to make this episode of this podcast go nowhere, she can send a couple of text messages and pay a couple million bucks and probably make that happen.

[A]

I believe that's possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I certainly think that.

[B]

That there are. She's. The reality is, is we're not going to create enough of. Enough of an uproar to get her to pay attention. Attention.

[A]

I don't think any one person can. It's the. It's the boulder rolling down. Or a snowball would be a better example. It is growing as it rolls downhill.

[B]

So. But the thing I like, an avalanche is a better analogy.

[A]

And the reason why I can start an avalanche. Don't steal my.

[B]

The reason why is because you can dodge a snowball. But if the whole mountain is avalanching down, which is why every single parent who's listening to this one, get your kids off Roblox. Stop. Stop feeding that monster. And then go tell all of your friends. I mean, what I would ultimately subscription model per month.

[A]

Like, what would be the best way to.

[B]

They make money off of what's called Robux, which is where you have to pay somebody who developed a game.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You have to pay them to play their game in a currency called Robux.

[A]

So like in app commerce.

[B]

Yeah, in app Commerce, Roblox gets 30% of that transaction. So they make 30 cents on every dollar that's spent inside the platform.

[A]

So again, a roundabout way that would impact everybody involved would be just the participation in general. Don't part.

[B]

Yeah, just don't participate.

[A]

Yeah. Don't jump in the pool and you won't get wet.

[B]

Yeah, just, just get out. And so if, if, if you listen to this and it made you angry, we're not done.

[A]

What else do you have on that?

[B]

That, that, that means. That means nothing thing.

[A]

Don't steal anger and hatred from me to participate. Of course.

[B]

Right, so, so, you know, like, what can parents do? One, get their kids off roadblocks. Two, tell other parents to get their kids off roadblocks. And ultimately what's going to solve this problem is a boycott of Roblox. And then Roblox is going to crash. Some PE company is gonna, gonna swoop in, buy them for parts. And then, you know, hopefully we'll have, we'll have, have, you know, better games down the road. Hopefully next year we'll have some that, that we can talk about, but we'll have better games for kids down the road that were built with all the safety features from the beginning. As in the safety features were architected.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the game was built on top of the foundation of the safety features. Not, not the, like this, this is a, this is something we're going to finally get to when, when people start forcing our hand.

[A]

I was thinking about that when you were saying the CEO was talking about. It's a scaling issue, which I don't discount that their ability to control the scale is probably impossible at this point. But then I would think if I try to put myself in those shoes, I'm not the CEO of a publicly traded company, but I'm just looking at this from a moral perspective. And again, you're educated about this. I would put the odds at slightly over zero percent that he doesn't know that this exists.

[B]

No, he does. He's. He is. He's commented as much.

[A]

So what I'm saying is if you're in that spot, okay, we can't scale it then. Dude, stop the growth until you can. Yes. Yeah, like put the brakes on until you can.

[B]

We're shutting down the company for two weeks. Sorry for the disruption.

[A]

You guys are all these things. You guys were waiting for approval on or ability to do this, we're putting it on hold. And this is the reason why. And put the safety mechanism in place.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And then re release it. And if you can't, well, you're the one looking in the mirror on that moral conundrum on the way that you want to, you know, steer the ship of Roblox.

[B]

But you saw what David said. Like he's not giving talking points with a straight face. He's giving his honest assessment. His honest, like I, like this man genuinely believes these things.

[A]

The beauty of the information we do have or things like that. And people will ask me if I ever sat down across from somebody that I thought was lying to me or lying about something. And the answer is of course yes. And they say, well, what do you do? Do you call them on it? Like. No, I let them talk more. Because most of the time all you need to do is just let people talk. They'll show you who they are. And if that person, if he's answering those questions in that way, and that is what he believes for all the parents out there. Because guess what? It's probably not your kid's credit card or debit card that's paying for the Roblox or whatever, the monthly subscription. Now you have from the horse's mouth what that person stands for. The culture and foundation of that organization.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you gonna do?

[B]

So people will be like, talk. Yeah. The, the FBI will get to the bottom of the 764 problem. And I think they probably will. I think they probably will.

[A]

What are you gonna do in the interim?

[B]

But then there's going to be another one and there's gonna be another one and there's gonna be another one.

[A]

I have heard is 6, 7. Have you heard of that one?

[B]

Yes, but what the heck does it mean?

[A]

Yes, Michael, I don't actually know. It means everything from F. It's like huya and buds.

[B]

Okay, yes.

[A]

No, fu.

[B]

It's the, it's the Universal Something that.

[A]

10 year olds, they just like. Six, seven. Michael, what does it mean to you as a 23 year old?

[B]

Even I am too old for six.

[A]

Seven.

[B]

Yeah, I don't really get it. I don't think it really means anything in particular.

[A]

No, but it means everything because I was with my nephew who's 8. We were at a wedding.

[B]

What's, what's perplexity?

[A]

Say that.

[B]

Yeah, actually, that.

[A]

Google that sucker. We're not Rogan here. We don't use perplexity.

[B]

How about Gemini?

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Oh man. It's Google's version of. It's their AI.

[A]

Whatever, dude. If I accidentally clicked on it, it's.

[B]

The reason open AI will end up going out of business.

[A]

A vague popular slang term. Oh my God. It's Dictionary.com's 2025 Word of the year, signifying something nonsensical or just being online as 6, 7 prefix to dial a number. Oh, that's where it comes from. The star six seven. Okay, okay, okay. Vague slang. Yeah. Okay. So it means absolutely everything. Nothing. Which is what the kids in the back, the cars, I was driving them around, they'd be like, oh, chick fil a six seven.

[B]

But I think, I think a lot of. A lot of, you know, kids probably don't even know. They just pick it up because someone else says. Because someone else says. Because someone else says 100.

[A]

That's how things.

[B]

They just learn how to use it in context.

[A]

Yeah, that's how things catch fire.

[B]

My. My son knows a few words that he probably shouldn't. He doesn't know what they mean, but boy does he know how to use them in context.

[A]

I cared less if about the words that they used for my kids when it came to. We'll call them adult words. Yeah, it was. Was it in a complete sentence and used proper.

[B]

Oh yes. Because like nailed it. I'm like, wow, that's kind of what's important. Where'd you learn that?

[A]

You. Yeah, here's the thing. They're gonna learn them all at some point anyway.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Work on combos.

[B]

You know, like sharpen the blade.

[A]

So like don't use these as a measure of last resort, but when it's time to go, this is how you do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The. How are you hopeful about any of this with what you are immersed with online?

[B]

Okay, so how am I hopeful? You see this more than anybody else, human trafficking side. I am hopeful because we know exactly how to fight it now. And you know, even though AI has just become this, this catchphrase, you know, we've been using it for six or seven years. So I actually love. With all these tools like Perplexity and Gemini and Chat GPT that have come out because now I finally have a way to explain what we do in the fight against human trafficking. To the 75 year old heiress to some fortune who is donating to deliver fund.

[A]

Are you starting to feel like the crack at the top of the fall line of the avalanche is getting ready so you can just.

[B]

Oh yeah. So we see in the places where we've been Active for more than about two years. Places like Ventura County, San Luis Obispo, those areas. Dan Dow, the DA out there has done a phenomenal job of just really attacking this problem. They're having a hard time finding traffickers. It's a win. That's awesome. In Dallas county we, we started working with, with Dallas PD what 10 years ago and they keep like standing up and shutting down their human trafficking unit, which is a whole other conversation about lack of priorities within, within law enforcement. And, and that's not law enforcement's fault. Let's be very clear about that. That's the people who are giving law enforcement their orders, which is our politicians. And how do they give them their orders? By funding this unit and not that unit. Right. So Dallas is a great example. They, they stood their human trafficking unit back up and this whole time we were working in Tarrant county, which is south of Dallas, that's Fort Worth, Texas and Sheriff Wayburn has just been an absolute pioneer in that area. Well, well, they were having a hard time finding traffickers in Tarrant county because they all went into Dallas County. Well, when Dallas PD started, started their human trafficking unit again and I think they actually have closed it down yet again. But when they started back up they started arresting human traffickers and there were traffickers saying hey, wait a minute, you don't arrest pimps, AKA human traffickers in Dallas. So we, we know the system works. The problem is it that that part of the system is people based which means it's not scalable. Right. A human only has so many hours to do so many things. So where we go next and why I get very hopeful is as we get more and more data integrated in more and more of this intelligence integrated directly into law enforcement systems in an automated way, as we have more of these publicly traded companies that are providing these platforms start to use the data in order to kick bad guys off of their, off their plat, we're going to start to see a real disruption because it's not about getting every human trafficker arrested. It's about adding so much friction and risk into the market that it's just no longer easy and it's no longer profitable, which means they'll self select out of the market to go do something else.

[A]

I really like your analogy of the football field. And instead of just having a two foot high barrier at the other end zone every 10 yards, you got something because like you said, the cumulative mathematics works and it just starts peeling people out of that.

[B]

Yeah. Event eventually you're going to Trip on one of those hurdles.

[A]

What do you think though? Because most people listening to this I would imagine are going to be in the role of a parent or a consumer, let's say. So using every yard line in that example, the 10 of them, how many of those do you think could be put up by a user or a parent though? A consumer or parent.

[B]

So, so parent or consumer. Let, let's just look at the individual. Yeah, right. So the individual one. One.

[A]

I mean, economic participation is one based.

[B]

Off get your kids off Roblox. Totally. Right. And, and I would say Minecraft. Never let your child on Discord. I mean all of those. But, but Roblox is like you, you can't attack every target at once. You gotta attack one at a time. Right. So like what's, what's the most lethal target? You're gonna go after them first, right? You know, you don't leave them to the end.

[A]

Is Roblox. Roblox. Are they relying upon Discord to the. That, that link? Like if you were to.

[B]

If they say no. And so what they say is, well, we actually try to make it very hard for people to leave the platform. But then why is it happening at such a scale?

[A]

What if you were to able at whatever say Discord went down for a year. What kind of impact do you think that would have on trafficking, specifically of.

[B]

Minors or leveraging if Discord went down and let's just say greater than 70%.

[A]

Reduction, which is insane, right? Because of course there's other platforms. But it's like, okay, we're identifying with the portal where a lot of this is happening.

[B]

You can't put together a signal group with 3,000 members on it.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

You can put together a discord server with 3,000 members.

[A]

And I'm just thinking again from the lens of a consumer or a parent. Okay. Parents, if your kids are using Discord, make at least an educated risk versus reward board decision.

[B]

Right. And I think that's one of the biggest problems we have is that the, the education isn't out there because you have these companies like Roblox which can, they can go hire big PR firms. Great example is, have you ever had, have you had Lila McElwait on your podcast? Dude, she's a straight hero. The work that she's been doing, she wrote a book called Takedown. You want to get real angry? Go read that book about, about. And it's about pornhub Hub.

[A]

So do you have her contact info?

[B]

Yes. Let's do It, Yeah. She's phenomenal.

[A]

I would remember that last name.

[B]

Yeah, I, I, I would. And I think I pronounced it right. Yeah. She's amazing. Cannot recommend enough that people should go buy her book so that they can support what it is that she's doing. But also read that book because it will, it will anger you. But that's, but it's real easy to read a book about what's happening at pornhub and be like, well, I'm not on pornhub. I don't do porn. So. So that doesn't really affect me. So I started pointing out years ago that pornhub was, was complicit in human trafficking. There's a lot of human traffickers and, and who were putting their content on pornhub and then making money from it. And we're talking minors, like, really gross stuff. Pornhub spent probably hundreds of thousands of dollars going after me personally. They, they had hit pieces put out on me. There was actually a piece in Forbes Digital they had put out on me trying to say that I was doing all this terrible stuff, Right? And I'm, I'm every pejorative you can, you know, throw at somebody as, as, as a white male. Well, then all of a sudden, I wasn't getting any hate, and I was like, oh, they must have just kind of forgot about me. Well, no, it's because they shifted towards Lila, and so pornhub ended up taking all kinds of content down. I mean, it was pretty drastic what, what she did against them. There's a lot of lawsu against them now. They're a Canadian company, so they're kind of outside of US Jurisdiction. But the feds are getting the camel's nose under the tent on that. That getting kind of too into detail on that. That's all because of what she did. And she launched a campaign, if you will, on X, where she started pointing out all this stuff with screenshots and whatnot that was happening on pornhub and calling it Trafficking Hub. Well, basically decimated the platform. And they went from making all the money to making no money. And then what's really funny is they started a private equity firm to buy themselves. Right? Which, which is, which is a strategy that you do. Do you know what they called their, their private equity firm? No. Ethical capital.

[A]

That's the move, though.

[B]

You just can't. That's, that's totally the move.

[A]

Yeah, that's the move.

[B]

And so, so these, these firms will have these huge PR companies. So 5WPR was who they hired to go after me. We know that from. From court filings, from DOJ filings, because doj, the DOJ actually did go after them. Pornhub ended up pleading guilty to a number of crimes. And now they're under some. Of course, nobody went to jail because God forbid. Yeah. But they're basically, the DOJ has oversight of them and their finances for a certain period of time, as I understand it. But we know from those filings, because there was this, like, random reporter. Like, who's this person? Well, in those filings, that reporter who wrote a. Basically a hit piece on Deliver Fund was named as an agent of pornhub hired through this PR company. I was like, oh, okay. Now it all makes sense.

[A]

You can't hide anything in the modern era. I don't know why people are trying.

[B]

No, I mean, that's freaking agency guy. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let'S just. Let's just say there might be potential alleged caveats, but every time I went overseas, for the most part, I was under my true name. Yeah, because, like, you're getting retina scanned in Doha. Like, how you going to defeat that eye patch? Yeah, right.

[A]

Like Kremlin shock.

[B]

So, yeah, that's not absolutely happening. So, I mean, if the CIA can't pull off anonymity as well, like as a publicly traded company or. Or, you know, a large company, you're eventually going to get caught. But a great example of what she did was there's now all of these laws that are being passed around the country. We passed one here in Montana. They passed one in. In Texas, I think Florida. A number of. A number of states where you have to show an ID to prove that you're 18 years old every single time before you log on to an pornography site. And why wouldn't you have that?

[A]

And a VPN doesn't help you with that?

[B]

No. And anybody who thinks that's a bad idea, it's like you're part of the problem. Like.

[A]

Yeah. I would like for you to steal, man, for me, the other side of that argument.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, what are we doing?

[A]

Why is that a bad idea?

[B]

If. If you go to a gas station and you buy beer, you one time you show your id, you never have to show your ID again.

[A]

Time in concept, you're supposed to be carded every single time.

[B]

Right. So why wouldn't we do that for online pornography?

[A]

Yeah, but it would be really tough to steal me on the other position on that. But I'd love to hear people try.

[B]

I would love to hear it. And there's not even like a civil liberties argument that you can make on that. Yeah, it's the same thing when we get to get to here. So I think ultimately what is going to happen is we are going to get to the bottom of this problem. Is it going to take four years? Is it going to take 10 years? Is it going to take 24 years? I don't know. It's just a matter of time. Time. The louder we can be about these issues, the, the faster that timeline will go and the less kids that'll be hurt. Because this is, this is a, this isn't a time as money issue. This is a time as the lives and the mental health of children issue. So if you, if you look at it through that lens, the louder we can be, the more politicians will get involved because their, their donors, their voters will mandate they get involved. And one of the things that I like to point out a of lot lot that's a, I think a really good analogy for this is if you look at what's happening with the missing and murdered indigenous women issue in every state where there's, there's large reservations and large tribes. We all know it's, it's, it's horrific. These numbers off the top of my head are probably going to be a little bit skewed, but probably only by about 5%. But I believe that like here in Montana, I think the native population is only like 3% of the population or something like that. 4%. And yet they account for 26%. I believe it is. Of the missing persons reports.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If that was happening to middle class white girls at the same rate, it would be a national emergency. And how do we know this? Well, look at how many inner city blacks were being killed by drugs in the 70s. And then all of a sudden when it made it to the suburbs, war on drugs, the dea, Nancy Reagan just say no. Right. And so once it starts to affect the essentially majority population, the population with a power, then you, you start to see some, some movement from our politicians. And I think that's where we are in this. So I, I'm hopeful, I do think that this problem will eventually be, be solved to the point that we can solve it. You're always going to have people to slip through the cracks.

[A]

But yeah, the reductionist approach is the one you have to take. Not the absolute.

[B]

It's progress, not perfect, not perfection. I think we will get there. The question is how long is it going to take? And the, the price of taking a long time is the lives of children so we need to do it as rapidly as possible.

[A]

And I don't want people to hear that and think that they have no hand in this because they're not directly involved in what you do. If you're a parent parent, if you're kids, you have kids and they have a social circle, you have direct impact in this. So don't wait for somebody else to do something about something that you now know about.

[B]

Yeah, I will. I want to see the new virtue signal being deleting Roblox off your phone. So you're, you're like showing your friend like that's the good mom move, right? That's the good dad move. Yeah, I mean that's ultimately what we want, what we want to see. Because if, if think about this. 764 said their top three places to recruit kids is Roblox, Minecraft and Discord. Now we all know that there's not a lot of the actual recruiting that's happening. A lot of the grooming is happening on, on Discord. But the major majority of the recruiting is actually happening on Minecraft and Roblox as an example. So if you take down Roblox, like if Roblox is no longer an issue, you just reduce the problem by most likely about 50%.

[A]

That would be amazing.

[B]

So, so that's why I get hopeful about this is because this is a technology problem and so technology is the solution and the technology exists. I mean if little old deliver fund which is completely donor funded can start figuring these problems out, multi billion dollar publicly traded companies probably already have solutions on the shelf. So if that's the case then now we just need to create the incentive. Incentive. Politicians are the ones, unfortunately pretty much the only ones. Politicians in the market are the only ways that we can incentivize those companies to, to start solving this problem. So those are the two, those are the two levers that we have to pull.

[A]

How can people support Deliver Fun?

[B]

You can support Deliver fund. Go to deliverfund.org and click that donate button. We are 100% donor funded. We don't take government money. I think everybody understands why, why we're also, we do things that certain politicians don't like and they don't have a handle on us to be able to hold us, hold us hostage. So everybody thinks that you got to be a billionaire, a multi millionaire in order to, in order to, to be effective. You don't, don't underestimate 50 bucks a month going to Deliver Fund in, in what we do because that's what literally keeps the server something so that's the best way to support us. You can find us on all the social channels just at deliver. That's D E L I V E R our fund. And then anybody wants to follow me where I pretty much only repost deliver fun stuff you can find me at the.nick.mckinley on all the platforms.

[A]

I thought it was gonna be nickoblox.com Nick.

[B]

Yeah, and I'll. I'll. I don't think I like you. No, I hope not.

[A]

Hey.

[B]

Choose your enemies wisely because they will define you.

[A]

So.

[B]

And I'll say this publicly, like put me in charge of. Of Roblox. I solve this problem inside of 90 days.

[A]

Stock Price might take a hit.

[B]

But for temporarily. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. But then again, at what cost? I don't know. Let's make a whole very at risk community of people. Way safer. Cool. Stock price can just chill out for a bit.

[B]

And every single one of those this. Every single one of those price tags has a first name and a last name and an age.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Cool. All right. Probably ready to go drink myself to sleep tonight after this conversation. Real uplifting.

[B]

Appreciate you.

[A]

Until next time.