Flintlock Friday - 7/4/2025

Summary

Cleared Hot: Flintlock Friday - Independence Day Edition (7/4/2025)

Host: Andy Stumpf
Guests: Vaughn and Michael
Release Date: July 4, 2025

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1. Navigating Personal Histories and Family Dynamics

The episode kicks off with Vaughn and Michael sharing light-hearted banter about their experiences and preferences. The conversation quickly dives into personal anecdotes, highlighting the dynamic within their families.

Vaughn [01:02]: "I also think about things in that way."

Michael [01:15]: "We can rationalize anything we want."

2. Reflections on Marriage and Parental Advice

A significant portion of the discussion centers on marriage, the advice received from parents, and the evolving perceptions of younger generations towards marriage.

• Michael discusses the contrasting advice from his parents:

  Michael [08:06]: "Always be respectful and learn how to listen. It's a process that will continually be changing and be able to change with it."

• Vaughn raises concerns about the younger generation's declining interest in marriage, to which Michael responds by reflecting on his own generation's experiences with divorce:

  Michael [09:41]: "I've seen way too many children... who suffered because their parents didn't get divorces, didn't separate, do what they needed to."

• They delve into the complexities of divorce, emphasizing the importance of presenting a united front to children:

  Vaughn [11:35]: "The weaponizing of children and information to me is just absolutely evil and insidious."

  Michael [12:19]: "If you can be respectful... talk to your kids, let them know what's going on."

3. Gender Identity and Sports: A Heated Debate

The conversation takes a contentious turn as the topic of transgender athletes in sports emerges. Michael shares his experiences coaching women's rugby and expresses skepticism about gender transition claims, particularly in the context of competitive sports.

• Michael recounts interactions with transgender athletes:

  Michael [16:12]: "I've had two, if not three, of my women rugby players go through the Transition... starting with removing their breasts."

• Vaughn challenges Michael's stance, emphasizing empathy and the complexities of gender identity:

  Vaughn [17:00]: "I feel like I've been pretty honest about it. I do my best to have empathy with everybody in their situation in life."

• The debate intensifies as they discuss the implications of transgender athletes competing in women's sports, touching on fairness and biological differences:

  Vaughn [18:05]: "There is an absolute issue there."
  Michael [19:28]: "I've seen way too many children... suffering because their parents didn't get divorces."

4. Anecdotes from Past Gatherings and Family Stories

Vaughn and Michael reminisce about past family gatherings, sharing humorous and sometimes chaotic stories that paint a vivid picture of their family dynamics.

• Recounting a memorable New Year's Eve party:

  Michael [35:18]: "There was a South African lady that was running just destroy."
  Vaughn [36:18]: "Didn't somebody throw up in one of the chairs in the front room, too?"

• Sharing mishaps and humorous incidents:

  Michael [37:54]: "She was staring at the wall... had a panic attack."
  Vaughn [42:06]: "You decided to tell it for the listeners. This is the story you decided to tell at the reception dinner for my wedding?"

5. Political Discourse: Division and National Debt Concerns

The latter part of the episode delves into intense political discussions, focusing on the polarization within American politics, national debt, and the influence of special interests.

• Michael expresses frustration with the current political climate:

  Michael [55:26]: "I don't think the party that's in power today are Republicans. I don't think they have any semblance of being Republicans."
  Vaughn [56:04]: "Well, it shows you how severe in my perspective, what I've seen."

• Debating solutions to national debt and government dysfunction:

  Vaughn [64:27]: "What would you say to fix the fact that... would you be willing to do so?"
  Michael [65:17]: "Only until we exhausted every tax plan on corporations and the wealthy."

• Discussing the impact of lobbying and the need for bipartisan efforts:

  Michael [84:40]: "The only way it will work is if it's done with a bipartisan approach."
  Vaughn [75:22]: "It's a bipartisan problem."

6. Future Perspectives and Personal Aspirations

As the episode nears its conclusion, the conversation shifts towards personal aspirations, bucket lists, and the importance of maintaining relationships and personal well-being.

• Vaughn shares his bucket list and reflections on life:

  Vaughn [92:48]: "I want to go back to the east coast and see the colors change... I really want to get more active."
  Michael [93:27]: "It's all constructive things... just trying to enjoy it more."

• Emphasizing the value of family and cherishing moments:

  Michael [97:21]: "It's the greatest moment of my life just watching my kids with their kids."
  Vaughn [87:07]: "That's not a good sign."

7. Concluding Thoughts

The episode wraps up with reflections on the state of the nation, the challenges ahead, and the importance of personal responsibility in shaping the future.

Michael [85:33]: "If we don't go back... we are so separated today, politically."
Vaughn [86:33]: "It's just... families are coming together and I can't even talk."

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Notable Quotes:

• Michael on Marriage Advice:

  "Always be respectful and learn how to listen. It's a process that will continually be changing." [08:06]

• Vaughn on Weaponizing Children:

  "The weaponizing of children and information to me is just absolutely evil and insidious." [11:35]

• Michael on Transgender Athletes:

  "I've had two, if not three, of my women rugby players go through the Transition." [16:12]

• Vaughn on Political Polarization:

  "It's a bipartisan problem." [75:22]

• Michael on National Debt:

  "Only until we exhausted every tax plan on corporations and the wealthy." [65:17]

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This episode of Cleared Hot offers an unfiltered look into the personal lives, beliefs, and concerns of Andy Stumpf and his guests, Vaughn and Michael. From heartfelt family stories to heated debates on pressing societal issues, the conversation provides a multifaceted perspective on navigating modern challenges while reflecting on past experiences.

Transcript

[Vaughn]

Okay, I got the red smoke.

[Michael]

Sun runs north and south. West of the smoke. West of the smoke.

[Vaughn]

Okay, copy.

[Michael]

West of the smoke.

[Vaughn]

I'm looking at danger close now.

[Michael]

Oh, wait a minute. Give it to me. I mean, it cleared. Hot coffee. Clear.

[Vaughn]

Not.

[Andy]

All right, we're good.

[Vaughn]

How do you want to do it? And why don't you have headphones on today?

[Andy]

I feel like I'm going to be more a part of the conversation. No, you don't need them.

[Michael]

Bon.

[Vaughn]

Dad, for the last few times you've been on.

[Michael]

No, I've always had headphones.

[Vaughn]

Michael, please go to YouTube.

[Michael]

Yeah, right now.

[Andy]

I can't defend you on this one.

[Michael]

Okay, yeah, let her go.

[Vaughn]

For the last six times you've been on, we haven't had headphones.

[Michael]

Nice. Yeah, super.

[Vaughn]

We probably should, though, because people on Mars can hear your breathing. What do you got there in that drink?

[Michael]

Hot chocolate.

[Vaughn]

How many of those do you allow yourself?

[Michael]

One a week.

[Vaughn]

One per week?

[Michael]

Well, I'm actually two. Yeah. But I was sitting at home before I came down here, and I thought, well, I'm going to be on the river for a week, so I'm not going to get any, so I can have another one now.

[Vaughn]

I don't know if that's how it works, but I. I also think about things in that way.

[Michael]

Yeah. You know, we can rationalize anything we want.

[Vaughn]

When was the last time you did a fishing trip like the one you're getting ready to do?

[Michael]

Never have.

[Vaughn]

You've never done a float trip?

[Michael]

No.

[Vaughn]

Has Larry ever done a float trip?

[Michael]

Yes. He did it with some friends in Colorado. Larry used to come up when we lived in Missoula. Your mom would bring us up to the Crazy Horse reservoir, take us all the way in, and Larry and I would backpack.

[Vaughn]

Crazy Horse or Hungry Horse?

[Michael]

Hungry Horse.

[Vaughn]

Okay.

[Michael]

And we would backpack down through the south fork of the Flathead river, not realizing how pristine. I mean, it still recognizes one of the best areas. And we would spend a week, eight days out there, exhausting everything we had in our backpacks, and then go over the ridge and end up in Holland Lake.

[Vaughn]

Okay, so you would just traverse south?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Would you spit out at that lodge in Holland Lake?

[Michael]

Yes. We would usually go directly to the bar as our backpacks were coming off our back and. And quenched our thirst and called Mother, and she'd come pick us up in the morning.

[Vaughn]

Years ago, I did a trip out there with Julia for her birthday, and we stayed in one of those same cabins along the lake that we used to stay at.

[Michael]

Yeah, I went up there this winter and you know, it's the same setup. You know, we went up one time with Jenny and Aaron and Jackie and stayed on a place to the right of the lodge. Yeah, we've stayed all over.

[Vaughn]

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[Michael]

They struggle keeping owners there. It's.

[Vaughn]

Yeah, I was gonna say you better make your money in the summer months there because in the winter I don't even think they're open.

[Michael]

They close it down. I remember we were there in a campground, not in Holland Lake, the lodge area in particular, but we were camping and we woke up 4th of July morning, the Tent was sagging and it had snowed on us all night. Yeah, it was gone by like 11 o' clock in the morning.

[Vaughn]

But you remember when the horse tried to kill you?

[Michael]

Yeah, ran me right into a fucking horse.

[Vaughn]

You didn't know this, Michael, but my dad is a cowboy.

[Andy]

Were you?

[Michael]

Yes. Really indignity is we're in a trouble. Long row of horses. And the horse that I was following was farting continuously. And my horse, he knew it was time. They know when it's time to head for the barn. And our guide wanted to go a little further and this sucker just took off and picked me off.

[Vaughn]

Imagine a tree growing out like the side of a bank.

[Michael]

Oh. And just right off. Man eyes. Talk about a sore ass. Jesus. Good God. Yeah, yeah. Great memories, you know, of that kind of stuff. It's, it's. And it still provides the same activities for everybody. You know, it's. You talk, you listen to people at the coffee shop. The stuff they're doing or it's the same stuff. Yep. You know, couple yesterday they gone up to the park, gone all the way up to the top and were taking today off and they were going to go to that ride by lakeside that, that new ride they have there.

[Vaughn]

That is an interesting business model. It's a. I think they actually call it a roller coaster or a coaster.

[Michael]

Yeah, something of that order.

[Vaughn]

The ride cannot be that long. I see it when I fly over it.

[Michael]

It actually goes. Or you see it better?

[Vaughn]

Yeah, I get the whole visual on it. I mean, I'm sure it's fun, but it's not the most extensive ride.

[Michael]

Looks like he gets over pretty quick.

[Vaughn]

I don't know. Maybe you get to ride it more than once.

[Michael]

Yeah, I guess. I don't know. But it's, it's. It's like all those places up there. You make it in a very few months or, you know, you're packing your bags.

[Vaughn]

Yeah. Michael, how should we do today? I put on Instagram, which you're obviously learning how to use, and Twitter, which you could probably stay off of. I don't know if it'd be great for you to have that platform soliciting for questions. There was a couple hundred.

[Andy]

Well, they can't even go on Twitter. I just did. Only Instagram.

[Vaughn]

What'd you find? How should we do this?

[Andy]

I have quite a few. If you want to do it that way.

[Vaughn]

Fire away or. Okay, are we all answering these or is this just from somebody?

[Michael]

Call it on you, Michael, when we need you.

[Andy]

Okay, sounds good. Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Some of Them are just people want opinion from somebody born in the 19th century.

[Andy]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Vaughn]

Both.

[Andy]

Some of them are just for Vaughn. Some of them are for you and Vaughn.

[Vaughn]

All right. Far away.

[Andy]

All right. This one is just for Vaughn. What husband or fatherly advice do you wish you were given as a younger man or what is the best advice you were ever given?

[Michael]

Wow. You know, I never really got a lot of good advice. My dad wasn't much of a talker. You know, I think the best advice I ever got was always from my mother.

[Vaughn]

And what advice did your dad give you about marriage? Did Clarence have any pearls?

[Michael]

No, none. None? None. Literally none. I mean it was created. Ended up creating the divide that separated us. But I don't know, I think my mom, she just, she just said always be respectful and learn how to listen. You know, it's a process that will continually changing and be able to change with it, but always, you know, always take the time to listen and be respectful. And I think you can apply that to anything. But that was my mom's attempt to kind of fill in the gaps my dad left vacant. Marriage is such an a. Interesting institution because it evolves as you age. I mean it's not so much that marriage changes. It's just your perspective and your abilities at life at different times in your life. And if you're wise enough, you can take the time to enjoy them all. I see a lot of people fight it. And.

[Vaughn]

What do you think about the younger generation's lack of desire to get married?

[Michael]

Oh boy, it's. I understand it and at the same time I don't. They have this younger generation is my generation. Getting divorced was almost non existent. I mean it was.

[Vaughn]

You were in your parents generation.

[Michael]

Yeah, my parents generation day. I mean they hung in there. Not saying they all didn't. Oh well, yeah, there was. But in my community in Santa Cruz, in our family and families that we were close with, and I'm not saying that there weren't some that needed to make space, but there's just not a lot of good examples out there for them today. I mean, I don't know if to say things are so liberal today, you know, I just don't know how to answer that adequately.

[Vaughn]

What do you think is better? You know, I don't think there's really a way to measure the happiness of a marriage from the. You were growing up in the twenties to the twenties now a century apart.

[Michael]

But.

[Vaughn]

What is better as an example to your kids to get a divorce when the relationship is clearly not working, or to set an example for them where there is no love between the parents and mom and dad. Sleeping, dinner. And we're all just going to pretend for the outside world that everything is fine. And D and D, white picket fence.

[Michael]

Oh, I've seen way too many children having worked with young people for so long who suffered because their parents didn't get divorces, didn't separate, do what they needed to. I mean, it's like anything in life. Sometimes it just doesn't work. And if you can be respectful, again, the word respect, you can be respectful and, you know, talk to your kids, let them know what's going on, because if you don't, they're gonna face the same obstacles without a toolkit to face it head on and be able to take care of it.

[Vaughn]

I think there needs to be an asterisk on that because one party in the divorcing or struggling equation can weaponize kids against the other. If you're going to talk to your kids about whatever path you're going to go, I think it needs to be a united front and there need to be boundaries.

[Michael]

Very good point. I have seen very few divorces work well because of that very point right there. Somebody is always the victim and they get angry, whoever it is. And that's not saying that they don't have the right to be angry. But these kids, the kids are the.

[Vaughn]

Innocent party in the equation. They didn't have a choice about being bored. The parents had the choice about getting married. They, you know, people grow. You can grow with each other, you can grow apart. Every variation in between those two things. But the kids, you made a choice to have them, and you, you have. I mean, it has to be a part of the equation. It's the weaponizing of children and information to me is just absolutely evil and insidious.

[Michael]

I' watched wonderful relationships come from divorces, but unfortunately, most of what I observed has watched young people end up making the same mistakes their parents made. No communication skills. And if you can't, it gets down to communication. And if you don't learn how to communicate, and again, it gets back to respect listening. And sometimes you don't want to hear the message which is there. But, you know, man up. That's, you know, sometimes, sometimes it's you. It is.

[Vaughn]

What if you're a woman?

[Michael]

The same thing.

[Vaughn]

Very sexist of you in 2025 to say man up.

[Michael]

Oh, well, people up.

[Vaughn]

First you have to say, what do you identify as? And then you can, you know, tell them which direction they should man or woman up?

[Michael]

No, I'm not into that, everybody. Not into what?

[Vaughn]

You don't believe that a man can become a woman?

[Michael]

I've never seen it. I've seen. The closest I've seen someone attempt to do it in my lifetime was Bruce Jenner. And.

[Vaughn]

Hold on, let's talk about actually what Bruce Jenner is doing. Is he attempting to become a woman or is he living his life as a woman? Those are two very different things.

[Michael]

He's living his life as a woman. And if you. There's been a couple great documentaries on him because he basically was raised in San Jose in the Santa Clara Valley.

[Vaughn]

Does he really?

[Michael]

Yeah. And so I followed his career closely because I respect him as an athlete. I'm a decathlet.

[Vaughn]

Decathlon.

[Michael]

Decathlon athletes are. They're monsters. I mean, they have, what, nine different disciplines they compete in and.

[Vaughn]

Doesn't DECA mean ten?

[Michael]

Huh?

[Vaughn]

Doesn't DECA mean ten?

[Michael]

Could be.

[Vaughn]

God damn it. Now I need to know. Michael, will you look? It's 10, right? That's what DECA means. There are moments in life where I feel so dumb, and this is one of them when I don't know Exactly.

[Andy]

Yeah, it's 10. Track and field.

[Vaughn]

Yes.

[Michael]

Okay, well, everything from throwing a shot put to discus, the javelin, high jump, broad jump.

[Vaughn]

Don't they do a steeplechase, too, or something?

[Michael]

They do a marathon. Not a marathon.

[Vaughn]

Maybe sprint distance.

[Michael]

It's a long distance. And they run short distances. Hurdles. Yeah. But anyway, you know, he goes into how even as a young person, he realized he. I don't know how to say it properly. You know, I don't want to offend anybody here.

[Vaughn]

Good luck with that.

[Michael]

Yeah. He identified with the feminine side of himself more than what, you know. You know, I don't mind wearing a dress every once in a while. I mean, what the hell? Good party. Have some fun.

[Vaughn]

What do you go with? Do you go sundress? Do you go backless? Like strapless?

[Michael]

What do you go with? I can't go backless and my hair will just ruin the party.

[Vaughn]

But that could be a vibe in and of itself.

[Michael]

Yeah, but. But it's just watch his journey. And he stuck to it. I mean, it's whether you disagree or agree with it. But your point, you know, again, you can't become a woman. I mean, it's just the basic chromosomes of life is there are people who.

[Vaughn]

Are out there who will argue tooth and nail.

[Michael]

I know. I had two, if not three, of my women rugby players go through the Transition, you know, starting with removing their breasts. And then I just.

[Vaughn]

So let me. Okay. Again, don't get into specifics, obviously, because protect people's privacy if you're playing on a women's rugby team. To me, and just so everybody understands how I feel about this, I feel like I've been pretty honest about it. I do my best to have empathy with everybody in their situation in life. I 100% believe that there are people who can feel like they are trapped in the wrong body, but to me, and I want them to be able to live their life that way, it starts being an issue for me when they push that on me and they ask me to say or believe that a man can become a woman or vice versa. I do believe that people that are in that situation absolutely exist. But we are bumping up against some objective truths, some science, some reality. But if you're living your own life, more power to you. Where it bumps up for me, though, is the competitive nature of sports and Title 9 and men, again, threatening to completely ruin women's sports if it's left unchecked. And I understand that it is anomalous to a degree that there's not that many of those type of athletes out there, but the fact that we allow that to actually happen a single time, because you can look at the results when they compete against a cohort of male peers and then compete against a cohort of female peers. There is an absolute issue there. But what I'm getting to is you coached women's rugby, and this is the first time I've actually thought about this for the women who were going to. They wanted to transition and they started that. At what point were they going to switch over and try out for the men's rugby team?

[Michael]

They never did.

[Vaughn]

So they thought of themselves as men, but they wanted to play on the women's rugby team.

[Michael]

You know, I never had a conversation with them. What I watched and observed there was a difference between being gay and then trying to transition to back to a man. I can see that. Yeah. And it's a whole different. It's a whole different. Different strata. But I saw one of the gals later on. She was very highly intellectual, great attorney, but she had taken hormones to lower her voice. Just testosterone, you know, and it just. Yeah, it was.

[Vaughn]

I have no problem assuming we're talking about an adult because I, you know, with my own three children, I didn't have to work myself through this issue. I can't imagine how hard it would be as a parent if a 12 or 13 year old is starting to talk about this. I bounce up against things, you know, would you let a 12 or 13 year old get a tattoo? Would you let a 12 or 13 year old vote? Would you, would you let them own a firearm? Would you let them enlist in the military? The answers to all those are resoundingly no because they don't have the capability to make those decisions or understand the gravity of it. It's.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, it's difficult. You know, I, you know, I grew up with a family, Tony's family, who had a gay son and watched all of those difficulties that he went through and the end result, which was disastrous, and all the changes he tried to make in his life from joining the military, getting married and then finally just being who he was. And it's just a God. I mean, we didn't even talk about homosexuality when I was in grade school, middle school. I often think now, I think back of those kids. I was going through an old yearbook. I go back through it occasionally and I remember that because many of the kids that I went to high school with and graduated with, I started in kindergarten. It was a small community and we. And I realize now I can see those that were gay, at least I take that that's where they were going and wonderful people, but just the struggles that they went through. But again, athletics, I mean, there's just no place for it. It's just I went to UC Santa Cruz and said, look what happens if I get a 250 pound Samoan man who says I'm a lady. I said, we're going to have problems here. They're going to hurt people.

[Vaughn]

What was their answer?

[Michael]

Well, we're going to identify as they re. Identify them as they identify. I said, you're just skirting the issue. And I went right to the Title IX officers in the school and said, look, you put in my contract here that I'm not going to be responsible for injuries for this. I'll do everything I can to protect people in the rugby community, which I got to know a lot of Samoans, they have in their community. They're very accepting of the, of the gay community. They have, they call them fafas. And a lot of, a lot of families, they would say have four or five boys. The youngest is going to be the girl. And I mean, you go to their dinners, their picnics. I mean, it's amazing to see how a culture has a. I mean, it's a small culture, obviously, but they're such wonderful, wonderful people. But it just I don't know. God. Every time you flip the coin, you get a different answer.

[Vaughn]

Did you ever think you'd see a time in your life where educated and intelligence adults were arguing about what is a man and what is a woman?

[Michael]

No, because it gets away from what's on the table.

[Vaughn]

It's not that hard unless you make it hard.

[Michael]

You know, I can remember when it was still an early on issue and a New Zealand weightlifter was challenging it and he wanted to.

[Vaughn]

He identified as a woman for a few hours.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Destroyed.

[Michael]

Destroyed every Olympic record that there is. There was a South African lady that was running just destroy. And they did blood testing and her testosterone level was extreme.

[Vaughn]

What is the word you just used?

[Michael]

Testosterone.

[Vaughn]

What is that?

[Michael]

That's the male hormone.

[Vaughn]

One more time.

[Michael]

Testosterone.

[Vaughn]

Really?

[Michael]

You making fun of me?

[Vaughn]

Yes. Michael, please pull up the correct spelling of that on the large screen tv. Testosterone.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Vaughn]

Testosterone. Michael, let's look at this. Let's learn together. Testosterone.

[Michael]

Testosterone.

[Vaughn]

Testosterone.

[Michael]

Testosterone.

[Vaughn]

Michael, what would you describe it as? What he was saying? Testerone.

[Andy]

Testosterone, I believe.

[Vaughn]

No, it wasn't even that close.

[Michael]

Michael, the house will be booby trapped if you don't do this right.

[Vaughn]

Testosterone.

[Michael]

But there was that issue that it was biologically a female, but her hormone level was so skewed towards a man's that she was disqualified. She was having to take more estrogen to lower those levels. Yeah, it's, you know, I guess it's evolution. You know, we.

[Vaughn]

We talking about in the like as a species or we're talking about societally?

[Michael]

No, I think both. You know, it's. I mean, what do we just have a warship's name changed because of a. You know, it was named after a gay politician in San Francisco, Harvey Milk. And the present administration changed the name of the. The warship because of. I never read what.

[Vaughn]

Why was it initially named the Milk?

[Michael]

He was a very respected, very socially active politician. Both on every issue. And he was a gay man and.

[Vaughn]

Said he served in the military.

[Michael]

No, he didn't.

[Vaughn]

Most ships are usually based. They have some type of military lineage.

[Michael]

You know, maybe he did. I doubt it. But there was a great.

[Andy]

He was a Navy veteran.

[Michael]

Was he in. Okay, my bad.

[Vaughn]

I was gonna say it makes more sense. You don't often hear about it. Military vessel or installation named after somebody who didn't at least have a touch point to it.

[Michael]

Well, you know, I used to talk with my gals, especially when we got into the pronouns and what have you. And you know, I just said we're Fighting the wrong battle here. It's who you are, how you treat people, you know, okay, you want to be called him, you know? Well, to me, you're. Y', all, come on. You know, I'm not. I just. I don't have the time to go through and learn 50 new pronouns.

[Vaughn]

What were the pronouns you preferred them to call you?

[Michael]

They just called me coach or dickhead or.

[Vaughn]

I would have gone with, like, supreme leader.

[Michael]

Yeah. Or something. You know, really, it was such a great. Such a great relationship because you spent. My rugby season lasted seven months. We trained from September till April. And, I mean, you really get to know your people. You get to know everything that. Not everything, but a good deal about them. And there was always a lot of give and take. Again, respect. You know, it's something. It's the keystone of just about everything we do. And I know I've considered coaching up here a couple times, but, I mean, at best, maybe you get your team for three months, and it's sporadically at that, but, you know, it's such a tough issue, sexuality and. Yeah, it's a tough issue.

[Vaughn]

Is it, though? I mean, live your best life.

[Michael]

I don't disagree with you. I wish it was that simple. I don't think it is. Some people can do that. I think today it's a lot more productive to be that way. I mean, it's. I mean, it is. It is what it. I mean, you go back into as far as you want and recorded writing, homosexuals are there. You know, guys got guys riding sidesaddle and.

[Vaughn]

Okay, that's a new term for me, Michael. Have you.

[Andy]

I'm gonna write that one down.

[Vaughn]

What other questions do you have, Michael, since we've completely dove off topic there.

[Andy]

Well, here's actually kind of fitting. Which rugby team did Dick Broom actual ever fear to play as a coach.

[Vaughn]

Or as a player? Which one was the. Yeah. When you were coaching, which team was the one that you knew was going to be the toughest? And then when you were a player, which one.

[Michael]

Toughest? Well, in our league, probably the toughest.

[Vaughn]

Are we talking coach or player right now?

[Michael]

Coach.

[Vaughn]

Okay.

[Michael]

Was Fresno. I mean, they were just really. There wasn't a lot of great athletes on the team. They were all good athletes, and they played really well together, and they were very disciplined. They all knew what to do. And we eventually ended up beating them. Not that often, but I was never afraid to play any team. I always loved the challenge. I mean, obviously. Well, you coach to it. You play a bigger side. We used to play University of Santa Clara. They had big gals. Their backs were bigger than my forwards and they just ran at us and ran at us. The third year we played them, we were just starting to get our groove and they beat us 35 to 5, the first game of the season.

[Vaughn]

How do you score five points? In rugby?

[Michael]

You score either seven or five or three at a time.

[Vaughn]

So is it a try without the follow on kick?

[Michael]

Yeah, it's five points for a try, two points for a conversion, three points for a penalty kick. So we. And I knew we had a good team. We ended up playing them in the first game of the playoffs. And we devised a plan where we would let them have the ball two or three possessions and then we would spin it wide. We scored 40 points on them in the first 20 minutes of the game.

[Vaughn]

What does spin it wide mean?

[Michael]

From the center of the field to the perimeters.

[Vaughn]

So you were basically out cardioing them?

[Michael]

Well, outsmarted them. You know, we were quick enough to the ball that we could win. Loose ball. But instead of running right back at them, we would have two or three ball passes.

[Vaughn]

No, that's what I mean. You use their size against them.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah.

[Vaughn]

It's hard to have an engine with that level of size, too.

[Michael]

Yeah. I always. I always took notes. Every. After every game I'd sit down so I know who we'd play the next year. Where they were successful, where they were weak. And it was always a challenge to me to correct that in us. And it led to a lot of very good success as a player. Oh, God. Probably on back, we played at San Diego. There were four teams in San Diego and Amback was one of the better teams in the country.

[Vaughn]

Was that the old Mission Bay Athletic Club?

[Michael]

Yeah, they were really, really good. And they had started recruiting international players and it was a battle, it was a war. But, you know, I didn't fear anybody. Respected him. Yeah. But, you know, that's fair. Yeah.

[Vaughn]

What else, Michael?

[Andy]

Let's see. How would Vaughn feel if any of his grandchildren wanted to join the military?

[Michael]

I'd be proud, scared to death. You know, I know what both of both sides of my. My son and my daughter raised wonderful children. You know, you got to support your kids. I mean, I had that problem presented to me with Andy early on, and there were so many memories that were still so fresh for me. But I don't think I ever said anything negative or anything at all. It was.

[Vaughn]

What did you and mom say when I wasn't around, though? When I. I mean, because I basically.

[Michael]

Mom never talked about it.

[Vaughn]

No. But, I mean, I basically brought that Navy recruiter home. I'm assuming you two in bed that night were like. So about that. You guys never discussed it? What?

[Michael]

When I was your age in high school, one of my oldest and dearest friends wanted to go into the Air force. I was 17 years old. Okay. I wanted them to sign for me. Right after high school, we were going to Lackland Air Force Base in Texas.

[Vaughn]

And your parents.

[Michael]

My parents.

[Vaughn]

Okay.

[Michael]

And they said no, they would not do it. And that crushed me. I mean, it was probably, in hindsight, a good thing, but what were you.

[Vaughn]

Gonna do in the Air Force?

[Michael]

I had no friggin. I knew I was getting out of Santa Cruz and I wasn't gonna be carrying blocks.

[Vaughn]

I know the feeling. Did you want to fly jets, though, or what did you want to do in the Air Force?

[Michael]

Oh, shit. I had no idea. I mean, when I went in the Navy, I was guaranteed a billet to go to the frigging seabees. I knew what I wanted to do in the Navy because of the construction battalions.

[Vaughn]

Yeah, but think about what you just said. You were going to go from moving blocks out of the military to moving blocks in the military.

[Michael]

But I want. There. There I had the opportunity to learn how to operate heavy equipment.

[Vaughn]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael]

And that's what I wanted to do.

[Vaughn]

Okay.

[Michael]

And that was my. It was a perfect fit for our family business.

[Vaughn]

CBs are a construction battalion for people listening.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. But no, you just love them. Yeah. You support them. You listen to them. You know, give them some advice, you know?

[Vaughn]

Mom never said anything to you about my desire to join the Navy.

[Michael]

Oh, I'm sure she did, but nothing.

[Vaughn]

That was because you guys had to sign with me. I was only 17 at the time. I remember that. They laid out the paperwork at the table on the house on Trevethan Avenue.

[Michael]

Trevithan. Yeah, I can remember them showing up. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I remember it was right.

[Vaughn]

Next to the glass window that you were naked in the hot tub one New Year's Eve, and you ran up against the glass window. You didn't realize it was closed, and bounced off of it.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah. I hate to tell you, the imprint left on the.

[Vaughn]

Yeah. On the window to paint the picture for people. The house was full. Full of adults at the time, probably children. Yeah. And that's. Yeah, that happened.

[Michael]

Well, you had to warn children before you brought them to our house for a party, you know. Well, they knew us.

[Vaughn]

Have you ever talked about the New Year's Eve party where you paralyzed the vast majority of your family.

[Michael]

Oh, probably not.

[Vaughn]

Who was? No. So Donnie was paralyzed up against the fireplace, right? No, Donnie was in the chair. Wasn't Chip paralyzed against the fireplace?

[Michael]

Chip never got paralyzed.

[Vaughn]

That's what we're talking about, Michael.

[Michael]

My dad's. My dad's brother.

[Andy]

I believe this is the weed story.

[Michael]

We always had New Year's Eve. We'd have every 20, 30 people there, just a rager, and it start in the early afternoon. And food, all kinds of food. Well, I always had two trays of brownies out there.

[Vaughn]

And before you get into what happened, how do you make those brownies? Did you. I remember you doing something with the frying pan. You reduce it into butter or something like that.

[Michael]

First I would do is take. I use just pure buds, pure thc. Grind it in a coffee grinder, turn it to a powder, two cubes of butter, meld it together, make a butter, and then make the brownie mix and mix it in together.

[Vaughn]

Okay. So that's how it's getting in the brownies.

[Michael]

Yeah. And then so I'd have a leaded and unleaded.

[Vaughn]

How would you label the two?

[Michael]

I didn't.

[Vaughn]

I'm just trying to set the stage for people listening. He's living out. He's leaving out a few things.

[Michael]

People would come up to me and say, okay, reb. Which is which? And I tell them, and usually you could smell, because I had a lot of. A lot of good juju in there.

[Vaughn]

I feel like this particular New Year's.

[Michael]

Eve that you doubled down, it was riveting. There was no doubt about it.

[Vaughn]

Yeah, it was Jet. I didn't have any because I was in the military, but I believe I remember you saying that you were going to go big on that particular recipe.

[Michael]

And here's my uncle standing at the fireplace, standing up, and his hand is up on the mantle and his foot is in the air, just standing there. And I think it was your mom come over and said, you got to take care of your uncle. And I go, what the fuck's wrong with him? She said, look at him. And I go over to him, and I mean, I love this man. He was my father's brother. Gentlest man in the world, but he could be an asshole like the rest of us. And I said, donnie, how you doing? And he goes, he always called me Vonnie. There's only one other person in the world that's ever called me Vonnie. And he says, I'm so embarrassed. I Said, why? He says, I can't feel anything. I said, donnie, there is not a person in this damn house that can feel anything. You're not alone. And so I grabbed him. I said, come on, I'm going to take you over to the dinner table. Dinner table was full of banana nut bread, cakes, cookies.

[Vaughn]

It was a proper dessert area.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah. He says, I'm not hungry. So I took him over there and sat him down. He did not move for an hour and a half and ate almost a third of the table. But as I'm going back out to the front room to retrieve my cocktail, I look at my aunt and she is definitely in disrepair. Well, they took her from our house with my uncle to the emergency room. That was the same evening that a friend of mine called me the next morning. And his wife hardly ever drank or anything. It was Turquoise Dave.

[Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Michael]

He says, we're driving down the freeway, going home, and my wife was complaining. And I looked down and he said I was going 25 miles an hour.

[Vaughn]

He probably felt like he was flying the Millennium Falcon.

[Michael]

It was not anything to go outside. Andy's friends.

[Vaughn]

Oh, that's right. He was staring at the wall in the shadows.

[Michael]

Yeah. We would find people out standing in the trees just staring, you know, are you okay? I mean, also, they wouldn't answer. They'd just go.

[Vaughn]

Didn't somebody throw up in one of the chairs in the front room, too?

[Michael]

Oh, shit. That happened more than once?

[Vaughn]

No. But wasn't it that night? Didn't Tony throw up?

[Michael]

Oh, no, that was Tony. That's when we lived on the other side. Casey's engagement party. Yeah, Corky threw up outside. Corky actually ended up sleeping all night in a lounge chair outside. But Tony threw up. Oh, Jesus. But, oh, yeah, it was great times. Good God. Yeah. Yeah. You know, shit, nobody died. And we get fireworks. Get these rocket jets, and I get these long pieces of PVC pipe. You could use them like cannons, shooting them off the houses across the street.

[Vaughn]

For clarity. Fireworks are not allowed in Santa Cruz.

[Michael]

Yeah, those were. Those were wonderful times. I'm glad I survived them. I love here. I love now having people sit around and talk with me and tell me their experiences of how they saw it. Because to me, I was. I was always. It was a hoot. A lot of these people. I mean, it just, you know, people of civility, you know, have the music blaring. God, what they have. They had camp, not Cam, but Casey and. Oh, here's another one. Casey's got this hotshot boyfriend. Boy, he thought he was. He was the top character in the cookie book.

[Vaughn]

Also another phrase I've never owned. Apparently this man did not ride sides.

[Michael]

He was flying to Texas, I think to meet his family or something. So I gave him a napkin with four brownies in it. I said, take these on the flight. It'd be good mid flight. Casey got so paranoid. She was on the verge of screaming to land the plane. She wasn't off of the plane. And I get this scolding phone call from her that. Jesus. The thing with brownies edibles is you can eat them and you don't get anything. It's a delayed fuse that delayed. And then all of a sudden you had three. And it's the cargo train that. So you can see the light coming at you and you can't get out of the way. Oh, yeah, I remember that.

[Vaughn]

Yeah, she's told me that. Basically had a panic attack.

[Michael]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Just scared me in a metal tube. Hurtling through space at 450 miles an.

[Michael]

Hour going to Texas.

[Vaughn]

What else you got, Michael?

[Michael]

Let's see.

[Vaughn]

We're really exploring some new spaces.

[Andy]

We really are. Did Vaughn ever give Andy the talk? And if so, how did he explain it?

[Vaughn]

The birds and the bees talk?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Vaughn]

He did not.

[Michael]

I did not. He was screwing everything in town. I figured he knew everything he needed to know.

[Vaughn]

You know, it's like when not accurate.

[Michael]

Oh, Jesus Christ. He kind. When I finally got the. I told you the story.

[Vaughn]

I had one girlfriend in high school. That's it. You guys wouldn't let me go to any of the dances.

[Michael]

Yeah, you did.

[Vaughn]

You went to the dances when we were a freshman. Same thing with Casey. I didn't have a girlfriend until I was a junior in high school. And I was dating the same girl until I went to the Navy.

[Michael]

Okay, so let me preface this.

[Vaughn]

You don't need to tell this story. And by the way, actually, go ahead and tell it for the listeners. This is the story you decided to tell at the reception dinner for my wedding?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Which, by the way, not the best choice.

[Michael]

Well, it was kind of impromptu.

[Vaughn]

It's almost as if you could have thought about something else in the months leading up to it.

[Michael]

I didn't have it say that at the.

[Vaughn]

Yeah, you did. You did.

[Michael]

Oh, okay. Everything turned out okay.

[Vaughn]

Yeah. In spite of. Not because of.

[Michael]

Both my children drove the Volkswagen bus. Casey graduated three years before you. Or two.

[Vaughn]

She was. She was a senior when I was a freshman. So it had been three years. We're separated by two years. But some of us have to do grades again.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vaughn]

For clarity, it wasn't like, 11th grade. I think it was first grade. But I went from being the youngest person in my class to the oldest, essentially.

[Michael]

You.

[Vaughn]

It was when we moved up here. I repeated a grade when we were in Missoula.

[Michael]

Okay. Andy goes off to the Navy. I get the Volkswagen bus back. I'm driving through a very conservative community with horrible cops in called Capitolas, right outside of Santa Cruz.

[Vaughn]

You don't like the cops there, huh? Why do you not like the cops in Capitola?

[Michael]

Oh, they're just. They're like your meter maids.

[Vaughn]

Meter maid actual is his name. He's actually targeting Michael now, and I'm here for it.

[Andy]

That's great.

[Michael]

So I rolled through a stop sign. I get pulled over. He gets out, and he says, I need license, registrations, and all this stuff. So I go into the glove compartment of the Volkswagen looking for registration. There must have been a hundred condoms in the glove compartment. I just went like this to the. And he started laughing. I said, my son just went in the navy. This is. He says, have a nice day. He says, I don't think I'll remember. I don't think I'll forget this.

[Vaughn]

This was the story he told at the reception dinner for our wedding the night before the rehearsal dinner. That's what it was. Oh.

[Andy]

Oh, okay.

[Michael]

I was like, man, I don't. Oh, yeah, yeah. The rehearsal dinner. Oh, fair game there. Oh, God. Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Of all the stories that you may have about me, you picked that one to tell everybody the day before I got married.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Where did you get the impression that I was screwing everything in town? I had a single girlfriend all through high school.

[Michael]

Well, I gave you more credit than I guess I should have.

[Vaughn]

I mean, we might need to get you cognitively screened at this point. You are like attaching fantasy to reality.

[Michael]

Okay. No, you know, I.

[Vaughn]

Did you guys ever have that talk with Casey?

[Michael]

No, not me.

[Vaughn]

Did mom?

[Michael]

I don't know. There was. Most of everything in life was out in front with us. It was.

[Vaughn]

I'm the same with all three of my kids. I mean, we talk very openly and honestly about.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, somebody want to ask a question, ask me a question. I don't care. But, no, it was. Both my kids were pretty squared away. I mean, they thought they were out spoofing us, that we didn't know what was going on. But, you know, kids are kids, and it was such a great community to grow up in. Everybody knew everybody. You know, it's yeah. Certainly has changed, unfortunately.

[Vaughn]

What else you got?

[Andy]

All right, this kind of goes along with what we were just talking about. What's the moment where you are most proud of both of your children?

[Michael]

Oh, God. I don't know if there's any. One time. I mean, two that are real obvious for me is obviously when Andy graduated from BUDS and we went down there. And the other is when Casey graduated from nursing school and I pinned her with her grandma's nursing pin. Those are. But I'm still proud to this day, constantly of them.

[Vaughn]

How wild was it that your dad uninvited.

[Michael]

Did you see Casey's. She was gonna take that motherfucker.

[Vaughn]

And we've talked about before. There's, you know, there was a. What's the word that I'm looking for? A disown. Disowned. The family splintered long before I went into the Navy. I'm graduating buds. Like, the full ceremony. My grandfather is there. His dad shows up uninvited. My sister sees him first. Holy cow.

[Michael]

She was gonna. He was. She was like a mother cat. She was not. I had.

[Vaughn]

Uninvited, though, shows up. We hadn't seen him in probably five years. We don't know. To this day. I didn't talk to him while I was there. And he kind of just watched the ceremony and then bounced right out of there.

[Michael]

Yeah, he. He was more gracious than I thought he could. Could be. But my uncle was there, the one that was paralyzed at the fireplace. My cousins were there, A family, old rugby players that I played with at San Diego State were there. You know, those are. There's so many little moments as a parent. I just. You know, a lot of times I just watch Andy with his kids, and it's not easy having kids his. Their age and what he does.

[Vaughn]

You could probably strike their age from that.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, they're just meaning just.

[Vaughn]

It's not easy having kids.

[Michael]

Yeah. Period. And the same with my daughter. I feel that we always. Patty and I always supported our children and everything they wanted. And I see that that is still the case. That's probably one of the real proudest times of my life that I see that being carried over. It's not easy being a parent today. It's probably never been easy being a parent, but having the opportunity to watch your children instill so much of what you thought was important. And a lot of. It's just the flavor of life. It's the essence. It's not any one reality. Powerful nail. You nail into the. Into the Plank. It's more the sandpaper that you finish it off with and soften the edges and what have you. I mean, it's, It's. It's the greatest moment of my life just watching my kids with their kids.

[Andy]

Fawn, keep that mic a little closer. Yeah, just get right up on it.

[Vaughn]

But don't let it hit your second pair. So you have. For the audio only, you have two pairs of glasses. Do you ever have three? Do you have them all on croquis like that? So what do you guys. Are those your up close glasses?

[Michael]

No, these are. These. These two are the same. One is. They're both the same prescription.

[Vaughn]

Yeah.

[Michael]

This is for all uses to fish on the water with.

[Vaughn]

You know, they make transition lesson lenses.

[Michael]

Right. These are they. But they don't go as dark as this. Yeah. And then I have my readers.

[Vaughn]

Man, you're very old.

[Michael]

Tell me about it. What else you got, Michael? It's like, I won't go there.

[Andy]

All right. How does the craziness of the 60s compare to the last few years? Having lived through both, does your dad have a better perspective that this isn't the end of the world like some people currently believe?

[Michael]

This is completely different.

[Vaughn]

Well, what did the 60s feel like? Start with that. So you were 50. I was that decade.

[Michael]

I would. Well, it was so much that was changing.

[Vaughn]

How old were you in the 60s? Let's start with that.

[Michael]

I was born in 47.

[Vaughn]

So you'd have been 2013.

[Michael]

I was 13. 13 through. Oh, what?

[Vaughn]

2013 through 23.

[Michael]

That's 10. Yeah. Okay.

[Vaughn]

That would be the decade of the series.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vaughn]

That's an interesting optic to see that because you probably were a little touch young to participate.

[Michael]

Well, I mean, the world changed dramatically. How do I say all of this? Kennedy was. Before he was assassinated. Was assassinated. Civil rights legislation was. I mean, the, the racism in this country was ignored. If you didn't live in the south, you couldn't even believe there was a part of the country like that he was changing that social welfare programs. And then he was assassinated. Where were you?

[Vaughn]

Where were you when he was assassinated?

[Michael]

I was walking. I just got kicked out of an English class. Going up to the dean of boys to the office.

[Vaughn]

Fill in the rest of the story. What did you do?

[Michael]

Oh, I called the teacher a bitch.

[Vaughn]

Do you remember why?

[Michael]

She was just a nasty lady. And I, you know.

[Vaughn]

All right, so you're walking to get in trouble.

[Michael]

Yeah. So I'm walking up to the office and they. And I just. When I Walked into the office. I mean, it was like a. A shock rocket or something had gone off in there. You know, everybody was stunned and I. And then they turned up, which was being broadcast through all the classrooms of Kennedy being shot. But also the music was changing. I mean, you, you, the Doors, the Rolling Stones, the Beatles. I mean, music, you know, clothing was being changed. I mean, they would still have girls get on their knees and if their dresses didn't touch the ground, they had to adjust their dresses, haircuts. You couldn't have your shirts untucked as a guy. Just stuff like that. And then all of a sudden, before the 70s hit, I mean, we're into the psychedelics. We're into. Kennedy had been killed. The Democratic convention in Chicago where Mayor Daley released the police on the demonstrators. The conflict between parents and generations over the war, just the world was just. Today though, it's just absolute insanity. I don't even know if you can compare the two.

[Vaughn]

What's the difference in the insanity then? If somebody was to use that term.

[Michael]

Then there was still hope then. I think we're losing hope.

[Vaughn]

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[Michael]

You know, I feel a lot of different reasons. You know, I think Republicans or conservative because I don't think the party that's in in power today are Republicans. I don't think they have any semblance of being Republicans.

[Vaughn]

What would you describe them as?

[Michael]

Nazis.

[Vaughn]

So I'm gonna. Let's, let's hard stop there. Yeah, that word actually really specifically means something. And the people in office are not wearing gray uniforms with swastikas. And when people use words like that out of context, what it does, it.

[Michael]

Shows you how severe in my perspective, what I've seen.

[Vaughn]

You actually think the people in office are Nazis. Knowing through the lens of history that you were born at the tail end of what the word Nazi means. Think about that.

[Michael]

I don't think the word ever lost its meaning.

[Vaughn]

It does when you start applying it to things that are outside of the screen.

[Michael]

We are seeing things today that I didn't see. I had saw in the 60s, the Cowboys, the demonstrations where the Nazi banner is obvious to everyone for sure.

[Vaughn]

I don't think you can destroy an ideology. I think we militarily destroy.

[Michael]

I understand that and I can see.

[Vaughn]

But here's the problem. That type of language, when you use it like that, it weakens the word because people start applying it farther and farther and Farther and farther.

[Michael]

Well, that's what I see today, the weakening. I, I don't recognize my country anymore.

[Vaughn]

Well, then don't participate in that bullshit. Don't use language that weakens it even further.

[Michael]

I.

[Vaughn]

Do you actually think they're Nazis?

[Michael]

I think some of them are in office, yeah.

[Vaughn]

What have you seen from them?

[Michael]

Just listen to. I think his name is Mike or Roger Miller. His language.

[Vaughn]

Hold on. Is he in office?

[Michael]

Yeah, he's the, he is the chief officer for Trump.

[Vaughn]

Is that even a job? Michael, can you look up at his official role?

[Andy]

Well, I'm not saying anything for.

[Michael]

Roger Miller might be Michael Moore.

[Vaughn]

You mean Roger Moore. He is not in the government.

[Michael]

No, no, no, no. Miller. Not Moore. Miller. He's the chief. What do you call that guy?

[Andy]

Miller? Trumpet. Let's see. Stephen Miller.

[Michael]

Yeah. Stephen Miller.

[Andy]

Elmer is one of the most powerful administration officials and key author of numerous policies. I'm not sure what his job is, though.

[Michael]

He's a chief of staff. That's it. Chief of staff. I, you know, the hope that I.

[Vaughn]

So if you look. So hold on. And again, because I, I'm not going to let this one go because this one is important and it's part of the. That is undermining our society. You think if we were to rewind the clock to the early 40s, he would align with the Nazi party and support them?

[Michael]

Oh, you know, I used it as a character that probably is, as you're explaining, is out of place. And I respect your point you're making, but that's how desperate I feel right now. You know, all of these problems that we're having are not a Republican Party problem or a Democratic Party problem. There are partisan problems. And we are so separated with any type of partisanship at all that I don't see how we solve these problems. It's, you know, we live in the wealthiest country in the world and over 20% of our children that live in this country live in poverty. You know, and I'm not saying that's any one party's problem or fault.

[Vaughn]

Well, it's the country's problem.

[Michael]

That's my point. It's not a Republican problem. It's not a Democratic problem. It's a partisan problem.

[Vaughn]

I think one of the issues is.

[Michael]

Democrats make it all. I mean, the Democrats have made as much of a mess of the debt seat, the debt, our national debt as the Republicans have. Neither party is, is, is. What do you call it? Free from, of. They've all contributed to it. And yeah, it's just Frightening. I, I, you know, I just.

[Vaughn]

Was it frightening for you back in the 60s and 70s or was it Friday?

[Michael]

There were periods. There were. That. There were. When in, In Chicago.

[Vaughn]

Do you think so?

[Michael]

Yeah. Watts in 60. What was that? 65 in Los Angeles when they had the riots down there in Bert. A big part of. Of. Yeah, that was frightening.

[Vaughn]

But hold up. What I'm trying to say is this. People that were your age back in the 60s and 70s, do you think that they thought would be the end of the world as we knew it? Because you are. Because you were at a different phase in your life, right? You were at the, you were at.

[Michael]

The beginning of the. We had hope. Then you look at Kennedy and I'm.

[Vaughn]

Not talking about you, I'm just. This is going to require.

[Michael]

No, I was a reflection of.

[Vaughn]

I'm just. I think this would require a hypothesis. If you were 78 and living through the 60s and 70s, I bet you would have a different optic than you did if you were 13 to 23, right? Because.

[Michael]

Well, you could probably say that of.

[Vaughn]

Every age group, I think every generation gets to a place where they think that the world is ending as they know it, because I don't think so.

[Michael]

I disagree with you. My, My grandparents, when they turned in their 70s, were living some of the best parts of their life. They had gone through World War II, they had gone through the Depression, literally having nothing their children had shown. My uncle used to tell me about putting cardboard in.

[Vaughn]

That's not my point. My point is, I don't think they probably recognized the world from the one that they came into.

[Michael]

Well, it was completely different.

[Vaughn]

That's what I'm saying.

[Michael]

But it was the hope that was there. You look at Kennedy, you know, the arms race, the race to the stars, the moon. We didn't even have a space program. And he said, In 10 years we will be on the moon.

[Vaughn]

Michael doesn't believe we landed on the moon, by the way.

[Michael]

Well, everybody's a four.

[Vaughn]

I'm not sure about that. I just spoke for you. That is a wild conspiracy theory.

[Michael]

Yeah. I mean, you look at the civil rights legislation that was passed. It was, you know, stuff that, I mean, the military wasn't even. Was still segregated in the 50s. I mean, it was a place. I mean, a lot of times change is slow. I understand, but the stuff that's happening today, it's a viciousness, it's an anger talk about language. You listen to the language that are elected people use today. It's on both sides.

[Vaughn]

That's Our fault.

[Michael]

You're absolutely right. I don't disagree. It's not the government's place to fix this. It's our place to fix this.

[Vaughn]

We are the people that voted those chuckleheads into office.

[Michael]

I'm with you 100%. I'm not saying there's not a route we can do this. But you listen now. Today, it's all about, you know, the Republicans or the Democrats, and they're both got their foot in all of this. We need term limits. We can't have politicians that are. Their sunset of life is being rolled into a vote in a wheelchair or can't.

[Vaughn]

That is actually pretty wild.

[Michael]

Oh, it's fucking ridiculous. We've talked often about bills that are passed that have writers in there that are really. The bill is just a vehicle to get these other things.

[Vaughn]

It's happening right now. They're voting on it right now.

[Michael]

I know. I mean, I look at this, you know, it's. They have been trying for so long to get inroads into Medicaid, medical and VA benefits. I mean, when the national debt is greater than the interest we're paying on our national debt, it's.

[Vaughn]

Say that again. When the national debt is.

[Michael]

The interest that we pay on the national debt is.

[Vaughn]

It's our number one line item.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. Bigger than the military. Yeah. I mean, it's just situate. And we're trying to. Republicans got a plan, the Democrats got a plan. It has to be a bipartisan plan because it will never. We got there with bipartisanship and the only way out. I see. And with the people. There's not saying there's not a lot of wonderful politicians, but just the stuff that's being passed today and a lot of the stuff that the Democrats are trying to pass are just. Just as crazy. You know, I'm saying it's both there. You can't put the hat on just one horse or the other. It's frightening.

[Vaughn]

What would you say to fix the fact that if you look at the bar graph, the interest payments are starting to. They're at a point where they might increase and be that number one line item? I'm not sure they're exactly there yet, but they're on track to be very soon. If the choice was between solvency of our country, but we had to touch Social Security, Medicaid, those type of institutions, would you be willing to do so?

[Michael]

Only until we exhausted every tax plan on corporations and the wealthy. The accelerated separation of wealth in just the last few years is. I mean, we're Going to put another $3 trillion.

[Vaughn]

3.5. Let's not short ourselves $500 billion.

[Michael]

Yeah. I mean. Yeah, yeah. You know, we're on the same page.

[Vaughn]

From an administration that ran on reduced spending, reducing fraud, waste and abuse, reducing the size of government. $3.5 trillion increase.

[Michael]

You know what my hope is? My hope, and I must say I do have this, is that the Republicans have given the Democrats a gift. I just don't. I mean, there is no leadership in the Democratic Party. I mean, who's gonna. Who's gonna take up the standard.

[Vaughn]

Newsom is my guess.

[Michael]

Who?

[Vaughn]

Newsom is my guess.

[Michael]

You know, I.

[Vaughn]

He's gotta be top six.

[Michael]

I'll give him, without a doubt. He cannot not be. I mean, he's just.

[Vaughn]

I think there's a good chance they'll throw Harris at it again. Now, I'm not saying that's a smart call.

[Michael]

I think there are some people. But I don't think it's gonna get a lot of support. You know, I love Gopichar from the gal from Minnesota, the governor of Michigan. She's a tough nut. She's a really great. There's others right off the top. I can't remember, but unless we do it in a bipartisan way, I just. It's because it's a bipartisan problem. Democrats are in. They're saying it's the Republican screwed us. Republicans are in the. No, we're all standing in the same waters.

[Vaughn]

You know, it's interesting, you bring up tax and wealth. There are so many people complaining about corporations and what type of tax they pay and, you know, billionaires shouldn't exist and all of that. They're playing inside of the currently legal tax system.

[Michael]

There's no disagreement.

[Vaughn]

It is a waste of time to complain about a billionaire existing in an entity not paying tax. If they are playing inside of the legal goalposts, you need to move the goalposts. And it has to apply to everybody because I hate to tell you, companies run by Democrats or Democratic billionaires, guess what they're doing too. They're all driving their taxable income as close to zero as humanly possible.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't disagree at all. You know, it's. We don't. We. It's interesting seeing. What the hell's the guy from Tesla, what's his name?

[Vaughn]

Elon Musk?

[Michael]

He's pissed. You know, you look at a lot of. What got Trump elected was his financial support to a lot of candidates.

[Vaughn]

Sure.

[Michael]

And he's saying, I'll do it But I'm going to do it for. On the other way this time. Whether he follows through with that, whether Trump tightens his nuts on his contracts and what have you, I don't know.

[Vaughn]

That's another issue. Campaign finance reform.

[Michael]

Oh, how about, how about you each get a million. Citizen United.

[Vaughn]

Yeah. How about you each get a million bucks? And I'm not saying this is plausible. Budget.

[Michael]

And you got, you got a four weeks, four week primary period. It doesn't, I mean, politics don't pitch.

[Vaughn]

That to the Democratic Party because they didn't even have a primary last time.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I think they're both nuts. It's just, I am so disappointed. You know, it's like there used to be a firewall between commercial banking and probably investment banking. Investment banking, the seek. I forget the term. And it kept the money separate. Guess who's the one that changed that so the monies could be commingled. It was Clinton, a Democrat, you know, and it was one of the safeguards that we had that didn't allow that raid, those raiders to come in and just, you know, just rob. I mean, they own banks. They, I mean, you look at, there are a few years there. McCain even got caught up in it in Arizona.

[Vaughn]

They all get caught up.

[Michael]

Oh, I understand. But I mean, there's no one party that's not complicit with this and guys like, you know, Musk and what have you, it's, I mean, brilliant man. He's. I'm not sure how far on this spectrum he is.

[Vaughn]

All the way.

[Michael]

Yeah. But as a creator of, you know, products and I mean, just think of space program landing rockets that you can retrieve and unfathomable.

[Vaughn]

It is so cool to watch that thing come out and like, close and the rocket lands right there.

[Michael]

Exactly. You know, it's. I have hope for that. You know, I love my country dearly. You know, I saw it literally tore apart because of my war, the Vietnam War, because news reporting was still in its infancy. Three or four major Cronkite, Murrow, these kind of guys. And then all of a sudden it became everybody that had a camera. And all of a sudden they couldn't hide what was happening. And thousands upon thousands of veterans were coming home and just going, this is bullshit. You know, and it just destroyed my dad. And I never recovered from it. He just, he just had to.

[Vaughn]

Speak of the devil. Her ears must be burning.

[Michael]

Oh, she's ready, she's ready. I told her the other day, I said, will you leave your brother alone for Christ's sake.

[Vaughn]

Do you know how to turn the ringer off on your phone?

[Michael]

I thought I did. Which button?

[Vaughn]

Which one?

[Andy]

Just press the big button.

[Vaughn]

Once the big button, hit them all. Good job. Yep. That one, good. The other one, don't worry, eventually it'll go to voicemail.

[Andy]

Got it.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Vaughn]

But you know how to turn it off in general? To switch from like vibrating in your pocket to a ringer, which I would describe that as the loudest phone I've ever heard.

[Michael]

I really don't give it a lot of thought. Fair enough. Yeah, but those are interesting questions. I mean it's. I look at our children, my grandchildren, other than Tyler, and I think he's not typical of a lot of his generation.

[Vaughn]

Oh, you don't think it's normal to wake up at 7:30 to day trade every day?

[Michael]

But most of them don't have even a clue. They don't even know what their state senators are or what checks and balances are there. Three separate powers of government.

[Vaughn]

Dad. Most adults don't know that.

[Michael]

Well, that's a failure. And then we wonder why we're struggling so much with education, you know? God, when I was in high school, if you didn't pass your civics class, you couldn't graduate.

[Vaughn]

Yeah, you guys also didn't have electricity.

[Michael]

Barely. We were still.

[Vaughn]

You were writing essays on a shovel.

[Michael]

We were coming out of just the advent of kerosene. Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Life changing technology. The tax one isn't interesting. I wouldn't be against a flat tax, just flat tax across the board.

[Michael]

I support that more than anything. No deductions. But we can't pass things like Citizens United where businesses can put in as much money as they want and it's not recordable about who put it. It's not. It doesn't have to be recorded. You know, that's. I don't know how a. Because then it's the people with the most money have the most voice. And that's not, I hate to say a democracy because we're not a republic, but it struggles to work. Well, you know, it's. Boy, it's a tough one. You know, it's a tough one. I mean, this stuff with AI, I know very little about it at all really.

[Vaughn]

It's a shocker.

[Michael]

Yeah, it is. Oh, you mean. But I mean just a little bit that I get, you know, I just.

[Vaughn]

Have you played with filters yet on Instagram for your lives?

[Michael]

What's a filter?

[Vaughn]

Well, I mean, technically it's an AI isn't it? Michael, I don't know if it's an AI, but what is it? Oh, you could put a cowboy hat on yourself. You could change the color of your eyes. It'll soften skin tone. It's something that.

[Michael]

Would it give me hair on my head?

[Vaughn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

I gotta check this out.

[Vaughn]

Yeah, you could do that. No, it's stuff that you can layer on top and it's in the processing before it goes up into the.

[Michael]

This is one of the really wonderful things about rugby teams of my generations. We still get together and we are to the age now. I mean, we will get into disagreements where snot bubbles and saliva's flying, but it's amazing at the end how much we agree more than we disagree. There's a couple issues that will always drive people absolutely nuts, but the overall agreement is it's, it's. It's really high. I didn't, I didn't. Was never one to follow conspiracy theories. And evidently there were the beginning of them with McCarthy, William Buckley, John Birch Society was. That was their thing was conspiracy theories and. But today, I mean, God, there's whole programs that are being run on that shit. I mean, it's just there are communities of people.

[Vaughn]

Honestly, I ask. I don't know if it's that the people truly believe or they just enjoy being in a group of people that have similar beliefs. They can find some connection that way.

[Michael]

Yeah. How do you see us moving forward?

[Vaughn]

I think we're gonna have to have a restructure of our government.

[Michael]

Third party.

[Vaughn]

I don't know if the third party will ever work. I think without the institution of term limits, I don't know if we'll survive.

[Michael]

Yeah, those are basic. Those are basic.

[Vaughn]

But again, we can both say that.

[Michael]

Guess who has to vote it in? The people that are abusing it.

[Vaughn]

And that's the issue is I think a lot of people would agree on the concept. It's interesting to hear the politicians argue against it. You need time to get an understanding of the system, this, that or the other. And maybe there's an aspect of that that's true. So may three terms instead of two. I don't think you should be allowed to spend more time in your life, your total time alive on earth inside of the political arena than outside of it. So we could argue about what the term limit would be, but I think if we don't get that instituted in some way, shape or form, I actually don't know if it's recoverable.

[Michael]

When you look at Europe, they have like three weeks for their primary or Whatever it is, and it's over, it's done. Your idea of a budget, everybody has the same amount. That's what you get, period. It's just, you know, what is it? 70% of the time people are elected is used for raising money to get real fundraising. Yeah. That's the last thing they should be working on. It's interesting, you know, because I, as I was saying, I think this is a gift. I don't know if the, the cons, the progressives are going to be able to mount enough cohesion to take on this bill. Because I've always said, even when, before Trump was elected, and I was really convinced that he would, is. I always wondered what would happen when the people that. In the Midwest, the working people, I mean, rural hospitals are going to disappear because of this budget.

[Vaughn]

So they may. That is a talking point. But until that happens.

[Michael]

It is. I saw it happen in California when Reagan came in. He did the same thing, statewise.

[Vaughn]

I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm just saying I understand that that is a talking point, but there also is a difference between the paper and the reality.

[Michael]

You know, what the largest employer in this country is today?

[Vaughn]

Probably the government.

[Michael]

Uh, it's healthcare. That's how powerful it's become. There's that many people that are working for healthcare.

[Vaughn]

I was shocked when, I mean, in healthcare. What do you mean, working for healthcare?

[Michael]

I, I, you know, I wish I, I just, just came across this information. I need to do more. Yeah, look into it.

[Vaughn]

Because healthcare is not like a. It's, it's a nebulous system.

[Michael]

It's a, it's a, it wears a lot of hats.

[Vaughn]

It wears a lot of hats. I will say, this lobbying, when we had Chris on Michael, what was it? Was it big pharma lobbying or. The healthcare lobby itself is larger than defense and like two other things. Their influence in Washington D.C. is massive. The amount of money.

[Michael]

Oh, gosh.

[Vaughn]

It exceeds the amount of money spent by magnitudes of order on defense. And there was two other things associated with it.

[Michael]

Yeah. So hopefully this has given the progressives a. But I just don't think they're organized enough. I really don't. Again, you know, we have an opportunity to change the government every two years. It's called midterm elections. You know, and you watch, you look.

[Vaughn]

At the Democrats still seem shocked by the fact that Trump won. I haven't seen them taking an objective and critical look at what, why they'll sit there and say, you know, you know, tampering with election. This, that is the soup du jour of the modern era. But let's strip that aside. And if they're not asking themselves, how did we lose this? And making changes, they're going to continue to lose.

[Michael]

I think most of them have figured it out. You're seeing now the Republicans, they're not having town hall meetings anymore because the outburst of dissent they got going into their districts was overwhelming. They're gonna wait until the bill's passed, then they'll go back and revisit this stuff. But it's the reaction. It gives me hope. I am thoroughly disappointed with the Supreme Court, but the district courts and the.

[Vaughn]

Which ruling?

[Michael]

Huh?

[Vaughn]

Which ruling are you talking about?

[Michael]

And a lot of them just, you know, like what? Well, it's not any one ruling. It's just a lot of injunctions because Trump has just thrown all these injunctions out there. Brilliant move. I'm not saying it's not a good move.

[Vaughn]

Trump threw out an injunction. What are you talking about?

[Michael]

Just look at all the different issues on immigration that he has done it.

[Vaughn]

So he'll do an executive order and then the order will be challenged.

[Michael]

Maybe. Maybe I used the wrong one.

[Vaughn]

Yeah, the order will be challenged in court, which is the checks and balances working, by the way.

[Michael]

And the Supreme Court, which I didn't agree with, but it was the right decision, said the district courts don't have. Do not have that power. And it was. I was happy that they were slowing shit down, but I also have a very dear friend who is a constitutional scholar and an attorney. He said no. He said, unfortunately, they had to do.

[Vaughn]

That because the Supreme Court is supposed to be exactly that.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah. No, I don't disagree. But it's. I see. And enough of people standing up that I see the system working barely, you know, but it just hasn't all been trashed. It's too easy to give up and just be a piss and moan. You know, it's one of the reasons I enjoy talking with you. You have so many more inroads to opinions and exposure to the inner workings that are fascinating to me. You know, it's. It's. I find it. And it's hard for. And I look at. I go. A lot of people I have very, very good friends with that are. They have a lot of concerns, but their, Their ability to articulate it is just wound up in talking points. And I wish those. That type of information was more readily available to us, because I think it would help us. I feel very fortunate to be able to talk with you about these issues because it's. And a lot of times I temper myself until I've had an opportunity to ask you about some of this stuff because some of it just floors me, you know, it's, it's.

[Vaughn]

What are you typing away at over there, Michael?

[Andy]

I'm looking up a study that was done basically that says. Let me pull up some charts here.

[Michael]

Oh boy, here we go.

[Andy]

Politicians, elected officials only vote for their constituents interest 30% of the time.

[Vaughn]

Surprises that high, to be honest.

[Andy]

Yeah, the rest of the time. But when it's a special interest, it's almost a one to one. They will vote for what the special interest wants and not what the.

[Michael]

You vote for the people that put you there.

[Andy]

And this is why this exact chart is why me and so many other young people absolutely do not care about what is going on. Because our vote by this graph, our vote does not matter.

[Vaughn]

So you don't care about what's going on, but then you're still beholden to whatever decisions that they make.

[Andy]

Yes, but our vote.

[Vaughn]

So you're saying you're not paying, you're not paying attention. Paying attention to the mechanism by which the decisions are made.

[Michael]

What do you mean?

[Vaughn]

So like if they, for whatever reason, a tax increase decrease, Medicaid, Social Security, all these things, you're not concerned with the outcome or you're not concerned with the process or both?

[Andy]

I'm concerned with the outcome. My concern is I have no effect on the outcome.

[Vaughn]

That's a hard argument to argue against, actually.

[Michael]

Yeah, No, I, I don't disagree.

[Andy]

It just seems hopeless.

[Michael]

I, I respect your.

[Vaughn]

Well, I'll use a fraction of the big beautiful bill that got shut down, which was the public land sale. So we sat down with Ryan Zinke. Public land by definition should belong to us all. And it was a congressman, Senator from Utah, Lee, his last name. There is a process by which that stuff can and should happen and everybody in the US actually should be consulted on that because just because the land happens to be in Utah, if it's public land, it doesn't belong to only Utah, if that would be the correct term. But it just slides in there. One person can decide to put that. And he had a team of people I'm sure that pitched it all this, that or the other. But I wasn't consultant on that and I bet you the voters, and specifically Utah were not either. So it's an example of what you're talking about. You don't feel like you're being represented by the Person you elected into office to do actually exactly that. Represent you. I don't know how you fix that. I really don't. I wish I had an answer for that. I don't know.

[Andy]

What do you think? Lobbying with special interests and lobbying and special interests.

[Michael]

The only way it will work is if it's done with a bipartisan. And we got to go back to the center. You've got to have. It's not a Republican Party problem. It's not a Democratic Party. It's a partisan problem. All of these things are. And if we don't go back. And it was always one way or the other from the very beginning. But we have. We are so. What's the word? Oh, separated today. God, I can't remember the word. Paralyzed. Is divided. Polarized today as a country. Politically, I mean, it's. And a lot of it is from helplessness. It's from. You know, I can't do anything about it. The only thing you can do about it is.

[Vaughn]

I don't think helplessness leads you to a place of being polarized. I think being helpless or feeling that way leads you to a place of not paying attention. Well, what I see is that now it's a. Instead of the team being the United States, it's team left, team right. And if you start thinking about somebody, you know, to use a poor analogy, but we'll use the. The election signs. What are they called that. Go up the. In your driveway or whatever.

[Michael]

Oh, the little.

[Vaughn]

What are these things called? Why is this word escaping me? It was awesome. People were hooking them up to batteries when their neighbors would try to come. Rhythm. Or putting tacks on the back or tire strips on the ground. And all of that is an example. Your neighbor could have something blue and the neighbor could have something red on the other side. And instead of realizing that both of those people are like on Team America, not the movie people. Even though that was a fantastic movie made of marionette dolls, I guarantee you you haven't seen that one. Dad, it's not.

[Michael]

What's it called?

[Vaughn]

Don't even worry about it. It's not really your wheelhouse.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Vaughn]

I think can't. Don't you think, Michael?

[Andy]

Yeah, I'm not so sure.

[Vaughn]

The movie is called Team World Police. It's made with marionette dolls. It's not deeply into your wheelhouse.

[Andy]

It's amazing.

[Vaughn]

It's amazing. But not for you. You would. Four and a half minutes is what you would make it into that movie. They'll fight each other as if they are Enemies and not neighbors. There's no sense of community. There's no sense of connection.

[Michael]

Families are coming together and I can't even talk. You know, it's, it's.

[Vaughn]

That's not a good sign.

[Michael]

Well, that's where we are. It's, you know, it's not where we are.

[Vaughn]

An aspect of that is choice.

[Michael]

Well, there's a lot of aspects to it.

[Vaughn]

I mean, outrage optional.

[Michael]

Yeah, we're in an odd place. A very, very odd place. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, you're not hearing a lot now about bringing manufacturing back. I think that dog was pretty well beat of all its fleas.

[Vaughn]

Well, you have to talk about that in terms of likely years, if not decades.

[Michael]

Oh, exactly. No, I, that's my point.

[Vaughn]

To do that, it would be well outside of Trump's four year term.

[Michael]

Yeah, no, no, no, I understand that. I don't know, I just, I'm very fearful for my country. I just don't see a lot of hope. I don't see a lot of just. It's just something missing I can't put my finger on. It's.

[Vaughn]

Is your generation helpful, Michael, or are you just over there playing online chess?

[Andy]

I'm not playing chess.

[Vaughn]

No, I don't mean, like right this second.

[Michael]

Oh.

[Vaughn]

I mean, just in general. In your spare time.

[Andy]

I mean, it's honestly pretty apathetic, I would say, just because it's. It's like you're just bombarded with all of it, all the time to where you.

[Michael]

Just.

[Andy]

For me, at least I just tune it out because it's. I don't want to listen to it.

[Vaughn]

And the problem is, like I said.

[Andy]

I can't do anything about it.

[Vaughn]

The problem is, is that if people can get you to tune it out and not pay attention, well, they can do whatever they want to, or they can start doing things that can be so far down the line or get approved and you don't even know it about it later, and then you're trying to fight to like, it can become an absolute nightmare.

[Michael]

I mean, when you have the Supreme Court pass an amendment or I don't know if it was an amendment, that the President is not responsible or cannot be adjudicated for anything he does while he's in office, that has to do with decisions he makes. I just don't. I just don't see how that works. How do we. If that was in play, can you.

[Vaughn]

Pull it up, Michael?

[Michael]

Yeah. Nixon was in office and it was his own party that threw him out. I mean, the Man, I just want to hit.

[Vaughn]

I want to get the. The verbiage on this specifically.

[Andy]

This is from the. Hold on, let me find a better source.

[Michael]

He has immunity. That's the word is immunity.

[Vaughn]

Wouldn't that apply to all presidents?

[Michael]

Oh, yeah, it's. You know, I have to come around to bite him in the ass. But right now he wants to make so many changes. I mean, and I'm not saying all of his verbiage is distressful, but so much of it is just his mannerisms, his tone, his. It's just, it's. I haven't quite seen anything like it.

[Andy]

So this is definitely going to be a little biased, but it's the best con. Concise answer I can find.

[Michael]

Yep, there it is. Immunity.

[Andy]

I'm not sure if that's actually the truth of what happened or if that's their interpretation of it.

[Michael]

That's pretty much what it is, verbatim.

[Vaughn]

Keep scrolling down, keep going.

[Michael]

Absolutely immune once they leave office. Jesus Christ.

[Vaughn]

Including three Trump appointees announced a brand new constitutional immunity from criminal liability for president's official acts or anything a president may do using the powers of the office. Yeah, I don't necessarily know exactly what that means. Yeah, then the arguing point is going to be what's an official act? What's a personal act that, you know, let's see.

[Andy]

The court determined that presidential immunity from criminal prosecution presumptively extends to all of a president's official acts, with absolute immunity for official acts with an exclusive presidential authority that Congress cannot regulate, such as the pardon command, blah, blah, blah. Let me pull this one up.

[Michael]

This is Wikipedia. Wikipedia.

[Andy]

This might be a little.

[Vaughn]

Oh, the old Wikipedia.

[Andy]

Yeah. Again, I'm not. It's a lot of lawyer speak and I'm not really sure what it means.

[Vaughn]

I would need to get somebody on here who can break down this.

[Michael]

Exactly.

[Andy]

Because I agree, Vaughn, if it is what you are saying, that's kind of screwed. Like if you're just immune from potentially illegal acts.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's pretty much what it says too.

[Vaughn]

Well, we're all non legal scholars in here. I would reserve this one to sit down with somebody who could break down.

[Andy]

Because I'm not exactly sure what it actually says.

[Vaughn]

What do you got?

[Michael]

One more.

[Vaughn]

We got one more. Been at this for almost hour and a half.

[Andy]

Okay, let's see. All right, a little bit less intense. What is left on your bucket list, Vaughn?

[Michael]

The bucket. The bucket.

[Vaughn]

That's not a bad answer.

[Michael]

You know. You know, I've had a lot of time the last couple Months to think about that. You know, it's. It's. I. I'm going to reinvent my bucket list because I've pretty much hermitized myself in the last few months and. Jesus, I'm glad I'm here.

[Vaughn]

I never thought I'd hear you say the word hermitized.

[Michael]

Is that not a word? It is.

[Andy]

I'm not actually sure.

[Vaughn]

I just didn't think I'd ever hear you say that.

[Michael]

Yeah, but it's. It's not a healthy place. I think on my. If I wanted. I just. I want to share more with people. I like to travel more. Not big stuff. Yeah. I'd like to go back to the east coast and see the colors change for a week or so, maybe take in where on the East Coast? Upper New York, Vermont, those kind of areas where it's really big. I'd like to go see New Orleans. I like the culture there. I'd like to go to Gettysburg. I just want. My biggest bucket list is just staying healthy. I've had two really good friends suffer a lot here in the last month or so, and it makes you real relevant of just how short time is and. Yeah, no, I'm very fortunate to be here. You know, I kind of regained. I was walking the other day with Buster and I. And as you know, I talk to mom and I do. I mean, I don't really just, you know, talk, but it's just. And I was out walking early in the morning with him, and it was like she was whispering in my ear and she said, go out and live the life of. I didn't get. And boy, was that riveting for me. I went home and wrote it down so I didn't miss. I mean, it can mean a lot of different things, but it was okay, you've. You take a ding, move on. You know, don't reinvent yourself or just keep. To me. It's just keeping the people that are dear to me close and enjoying them, you know? Just going up to. Watching your rugby this last weekend was such a treat for me, you know.

[Vaughn]

I don't know if it was a treat for everybody else.

[Michael]

No.

[Vaughn]

Do you realize you were yelling at every player that came by you?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Every team you questioned every line judge as to whether or not they knew how to do their job?

[Michael]

Well, they were inadequate.

[Vaughn]

You actually were asking them about that before the game began, so how would you know if they're inadequate?

[Michael]

No, I just. I'm a.

[Vaughn]

Found his way to the beer garden.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vaughn]

Was still wearing the wristband days Later.

[Michael]

But it was so fun finding something that I love so much, seeing people have fun with. And it was a nice setting. I was not a big fan of tens, but it was. It's a great training tool. It was great seeing people get together. There's so much room for growth, which is a good thing. But just being. Having that spirit. I mean, I got in the truck and could hardly get out and walk when we got home. But, you know, that biggest thing I think you have to learn as you get older is learn what your limitations are. And if some of them you can improve, and some of them you just gotta recognize and move on. But. Bucket list. I don't know. I'm hoping with my buddy coming up, an old friend's coming up Saturday. We're going on a week's guided fishing trip in the Smith River. I hope that it lights a fire in me to do more of it. I really want to get more active, and I've. I have let that slip, and I'm using Buster as an excuse. I've got to wait till he dies before I do anything, and I can't do that.

[Vaughn]

Michael will just watch him.

[Andy]

Yeah, I'll watch Buster.

[Michael]

Yeah. But, you know, it's all constructive things. You know, it's just like conversations like this. You know, a lot of people never get that opportunity to do that with their kids. You know, having everybody be up here next week or two weeks. Two weeks. You know, I'm just trying to stay more perspective with who I am, where I am, and. Yeah, you know, just try to enjoy it more. Yeah. It's such a wonderful place. Sitting there at that baseball game, looking out across there at that mountain range that feeds into glacier and the green pastures, and watching that immaculate baseball field in a place like he just wouldn't believe, you know, it's pretty sweet. No, it's just you have to take the time to smell the roses, and if you don't take the time to smell the roses, you know, there's not much left, you know, but no, just. Just be happier here and, you know, and say, fuck it.

[Vaughn]

There you go. There's the ending for today.

[D]

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