How Veterans Rebuild Purpose After Service | Montana Veterans Project | EP 428

Summary

Cleared Hot Podcast — EP 428

How Veterans Rebuild Purpose After Service | Montana Veterans Project
Host: Andy Stumpf
Guests: Luke (MVP founder, former Marine Scout Sniper), Brian (veteran, MVP participant/teammember)
Date: January 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how veterans can reconnect with purpose after military service through the Montana Veterans Project (MVP), a nonprofit organization dedicated to offering backcountry adventures that foster connection, self-discovery, and healing for veterans. The conversation dives deeply into the complexities of the veteran experience post-service, the systemic and personal challenges veterans face, the risk and roots of victim mentality, and the power of purpose-driven community in rebuilding lives. It’s a dynamic, humorous, and often raw discussion about truth, trauma, resilience, and service.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Veteran Identity, Trust, and the Problem of "Truth"

• Navigating Post-Service Identity: Andy sets the stage by questioning how veterans and the public distinguish truth from fiction within the veteran community, referencing recent public disputes between high-profile veterans.
  • “The largest threat to the veteran community is veterans themselves.” — Andy [01:51]
• The Challenge of Vetting Information: The hosts agree that modern media and a flood of veteran organizations contribute to skepticism and overwhelm.
  • "How do I know who to trust?" — Andy [03:15]
• On Personal Research: Trust must be assigned personally, yet the landscape is hard to navigate for those unfamiliar with its nuances.
  • "Do your research. How do you research things you don’t know much about?" — Andy [03:45]

2. Victim Mentality vs. Agency in the Veteran Community

• The Trap of Victimhood: The group discusses how some veterans fall into or are encouraged into a victim narrative, incentivized by disability structures and social perception.
  • "Glass half empty to me is victim mentality... It does seem like there is a prevalence in the veteran community." — Luke [14:45]
• Systemic Incentives: The disability compensation system can unintentionally reward veterans for presenting as more damaged, creating a perverse incentivization.
  • "If the programs are based on how damaged you are, are we misaligning incentives?" — Andy [16:08]

3. The Complexity of Trauma

• Individual Experiences: Trauma is not a competitive metric—different backgrounds and experiences mean identical events can impact two individuals in wildly different ways.
  • “If you could manifest the exact same trauma in two people, each would come out the other end differently.” — Brian [29:13]
• The Locus of Control: Training, environment, and agency over exposure to violence deeply affect long-term mental health.
  • “The vast majority of time when we encountered violence, it was of our choosing. We were in control.” — Andy [35:15]

4. Rebuilding Connection and Purpose: Montana Veterans Project

• Origins of MVP: The Montana Veterans Project arose from a desire to provide a non-clinical, peer-driven alternative to traditional therapy, blending adventure with reflection.
  • "I didn't think that sitting on a couch talking to a counselor was hitting the mark." — Luke [56:06]
• The Role of Challenge: Suffering and shared physical challenges forge connection, foster honesty, and prompt real change.
  • “Sometimes it requires a bit of suffering to wake folks up.” — Luke [93:40]
• Humor and Laughter: Camaraderie, laughter, and shared struggle create organic healing, not forced group therapy.
  • “The most profound thing I’ve experienced is the amount of laughter.” — Luke [121:42]

5. Veteran Suicide: Complexity and Context

• Statistics vs. Stories: National and Montana veteran suicide rates are disturbingly high; however, suicide is a complex phenomenon with multiple risk factors that programs like MVP try to address by targeting root factors like isolation and inactivity.
  • "I think the goal is actually the red flags that come before veteran suicide. So isolation, not being active..." — Brian [76:17]
• Including Suicides in Memorials: They grapple with whether to include post-service suicides (which outnumber combat deaths in many communities) in ceremonies and symbolic artifacts like the MVP “pig egg.”
  • "As of 2019, 35 Marines from my battalion had killed themselves, more than died in combat." — Luke [111:10]

6. The Transition Out: What’s Broken, What’s Needed

• Off-Ramp Deficiency: The military excels at instilling teamwork and discipline but falls short at equipping veterans for reentry into civilian life.
  • "Military is good at onboarding, but not at off-ramp. Maybe transition should go outside the government." — Andy [83:19]
• Boot Camp as Positive Foundation: Even a basic military experience arms young people with skills that are applicable and valuable in civilian life.
  • "You could go back to your community and level up your cohort just by virtue of what you’ve learned." — Andy [87:04]
• Continuing Service: The best “off-ramp” re-centers veterans on service—as leaders, parents, and citizens.
  • “Veteran service starts when they get out.” — Andy [89:42]

7. Practical MVP Details: Activities, Evolution, and Impact

• What MVP Does: Four annual trips (two river floats and two backcountry hikes) for groups of veterans, led by veteran volunteers. Activities include shared hardship, team building, reflection, yoga, and cold immersion.
  • "We started out just with suffering and adventure. Now, there's structure—combat yoga, meditation, and a focus on vulnerability and honesty." — Brian [74:06]
• Inclusivity and Spouses: For the first time in 2026, MVP is opening programs to spouses—recognizing their role and sacrifice.
  • "There's symbolism in carrying the pig egg together, recognizing that spouses carry the weight, too." — Brian [117:14]
• Zero Cost (Aside From Travel): MVP covers all costs for veterans, striving to make participation accessible for all.

8. The “Pig Egg” and the Weight of Memory

• Pig Egg: A sandbag filled with thousands of dog tags—one for each service member lost in Iraq and Afghanistan—carried during every MVP trip.
  • "Every dog tag has an individual's name, branch, date of death, operation they died in." — Luke [109:14]
• Symbolism: It underscores collective memory, the literal and figurative weight of war, and the responsibilities veterans feel toward their fallen comrades.

9. Relationships, Humor, and the Value of Suffering

• Self-Discovery Through Discomfort: The MVP approach mirrors military ethos: find yourself and each other through challenge, humor, teamwork, and reflection.
  • "Doing hard things just makes life easier, even though it’s hard to do it." — Brian [104:20]
• Grace and Imperfection: The trio reflects on the need for grace for oneself and others; nobody’s just their worst mistake, and service is not an excuse to be an ass.
  • "I need grace more than anyone else. Maybe I didn’t catch them on their best moment, but I bet they have really good moments." — Andy [24:20]

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Memorable Quotes

• On the Millennial Survivor “Victim” Narrative:
  "I believe the largest threat to the veteran community is veterans themselves. And that also leads us, though, to having to police our own, which can get messy as well." — Andy [01:51]

• On Accountability and Truth:
  "I’m not the arbiter of truth. I don’t have this golden wand where I say this person is good or not." — Andy [03:54]

• On the Weight of Trauma:
  "I think we can all agree, trauma is unique and can be subjective, so who am I to judge what scrambled someone’s eggs?" — Andy [29:07]

• On Rebuilding Purpose:
  "We want to tell you: a warrior in a war zone becomes a warrior in a peacetime zone. Your military experience shouldn’t be a victim narrative; it should build you into a better father, a better husband, a better coworker." — Brian [87:49]

• On Veteran Suicide and Stigma:
  "The 22 is actually low... If you counted high-risk activities and alcohol, it could be much higher." — Luke [78:30]

• On Brotherhood and Healing:
  "Being in the backcountry is, for lack of a better term, just magical... Your brain is soaked in laughter for days, and sharing vulnerability becomes organic." — Luke [121:42]

• On Service and Legacy:
  "How do you ensure your grandchildren will hold to your standards of morality, seven generations from now? They have to buy in. You have to get them to believe doing good is worth it." — Luke [12:21]

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

• The Nature of Victim Mentality Among Veterans: [14:45–17:16]
  Discussion of disability incentives, systemic flaws, and "broken toy" narrative.

• Understanding the Pig Egg: [109:11–110:53]
  How MVP commemorates fallen warriors and why that matters.

• Impact Statistics on Veteran Suicide: [112:26–114:03]
  High rates, especially in Montana; why isolation is a deadly risk.

• Transitioning Out of Military Service: [83:19–87:34]
  Why the current system is broken and the role non-profits could play.

• MVP’s Activities and Principles: [66:55–75:53]
  From the Valley of Suck to laughter; yoga, cold immersion, connection.

• Physical Health, Purpose, and Change: [100:16–106:24]
  The necessity of hard things, the struggle to maintain fitness and purpose after structure falls away.

• How Listeners Can Support MVP: [133:29–134:22]
  Details about fundraising, monthly supporters, and direct engagement.

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Final Reflections

— on leaving the military, finding meaning, and helping others

"Veteran service starts when they get out. I want to be a value add. I would like to leave 0.00000...1% better than it was."
— Andy [89:42]

"All people need is just a little bit of encouragement—and the realization, for at least a moment, that they’re not alone."
— Andy [125:08]

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Support and Learn More

• Montana Veterans Project: mtvetprogram.org
• Monthly donors ($20): Entered into a monthly MVP raffle (details on website/social)
• Tell a veteran you know: MVP trips cost nothing to participating veterans except travel.
• Consider volunteering, spreading the word, or supporting their fundraising events.

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For detailed info on upcoming trips, donations, and how to refer a veteran, visit mtvetprogram.org.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want the complete picture on how adventure, honesty, and true community can help veterans write their next chapter—one that’s as meaningful as their first.

Transcript

[A]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north and south west of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now with it. Baby, give it to me.

[B]

I mean it cleared. Hot coffee.

[C]

Clear not.

[A]

Michael, are you prepared to do a subpar job?

[B]

Yes, as per usual. Michael, are you from Montana? Are you? Yeah.

[A]

He's never left.

[B]

Never. That's not true.

[C]

Like actually hearing like Elspore.

[B]

Well, I grew up in Butte. Oh, you're bucket. Yeah. My daughter's going to tech right now. She's getting her nursing degree. Okay. She loves Butte. Do you love Butte as much as everybody else who's from Butte? I do, yeah. I do like it. It gets a lot of sandwiches, but. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that a real thing? Pork chop sandwiches are real.

[C]

Pork Chop John's.

[A]

I've never been. I pass through Butte, I get gas.

[C]

That's what most people.

[B]

I used to.

[A]

Here's the deal. I'm not talking smack on Butte. I'm just saying I have yet to have a reason to go explore beyond the freeway. Gas station.

[C]

Yep. My uncle lived there and so my mom would send us to Butte during the summer for like a month. And he had his kingdom of two trailers. I'm not going to get lost in this. But he would take us to Star Lanes, which is a huge bowling alley, or to Pork Chop John's. And most of the time we're just shooting cats with BB guns outside of his trailer.

[B]

Because that's what you do in beauty.

[A]

How do you know those weren't other people's cats?

[C]

I have no idea. I. No, I didn't know. I didn't.

[B]

Prick.

[C]

Yeah, no, he didn't like cats. He had actually this whole inbred.

[A]

I don't like a lot of things. That doesn't mean I deploy.

[C]

He did, that's what he did. Two young kids, just like, you're bored throughout the day, go shoot cats.

[A]

All right, where do you gentlemen want to start? I mean, obviously we're going to talk about the Montana VEC project. I'm fascinated to know your guys thoughts eventually too. As we weave our way through this. Just the state of veteran affairs. And I don't mean the VA like the bureaucratic, I mean just in General, you know, 20 years of sustained combat plus people who served before that, people who served after that, the split time in between. Sometimes veterans make the news for all the wrong reasons and sometimes for great reasons as well. It doesn't seem to be a very equally balanced scale though. It's an interesting ecosystem and a lot of people really hesitate to have any level of criticism. And I truly believe that the veteran community, the largest threat to it is veterans themselves. And that also leads us, though, to having to be able to police our own, which can get messy as well. And I don't know, some people seem to want to take the tact of doing it publicly or on social media. I don't know if that's the way I think that confuses people a little bit. Direct, I think, is always the best approach. But who am I to tell people how to live their lives?

[C]

Well, I mean, even. Even like you just had a recent podcast with two veterans that are having a public squabble.

[A]

I was able to get one of them on.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I would have liked for Dan and Sean to sit down and talk. What I would have liked more is direct communication behind the scenes because.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

I don't know if you guys get asked this. I have gotten more frequently asked in the recent six to 12 months. The most common question I get now is how do I know who to trust? How do I know that what I see is the truth? How do I know what I'm being told is the truth? And that's a really difficult question to answer, especially when there are plenty of public examples of the opposite of that. And I am also not the arbiter of truth. I don't have like this golden one where I get to say this person is good or not. And I say, do your research. How do you research things you don't know that much about? That'd be like me researching the space shuttle and sending. Maybe. And maybe I do this. Maybe I don't. Advice to NASA on things that would change. Really round the nose off a little bit, you know, buff out this section. Maybe we should paint it pink. It should look like a leopard, right?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's tough when you don't know what to research and you don't know the terms and you can get snowballed a little bit with. I mean, quite frank, frankly, the kind of the sexy nature of some of this stuff. It puts people in a weird spot. I feel for him for sure.

[B]

There was a lot that, you know, with your question there. I think there's a lot to dive into with that. But specifically when it comes to truth. Because I was listening to the podcast with podcast with Dan the other day.

[A]

Kremlin Shaw.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I told him to his face. That's the only thing I'm going to call him. He wasn't really pleased with It.

[B]

No. He didn't seem that happy about it.

[C]

No.

[A]

Well, he's like, I don't understand why Chad called me that. To explain to him this was off air. I'm like, he couldn't remember your name? That was his best approximate approximation.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And he said, I don't. Like, he called me a prostitute. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. He's calling all of you prostitutes. Did you fall into that bucket by that description? Yes. But don't take that as a personal affront. I think that's where he lands on all people in your line of work. Today's episode is brought to you by Better Wild. If you follow me on any platform, you know, I have a dog. I love dogs. My dog's name is Javelin. He is of the most superior breed on planet Earth in the history of humans. And that is a mini dachshund or a dakel, depending on where you're from. I love that little guy so much. But he is tiny and his digestive tract is like this small. He's just a very compact package. Just like humans. Dogs need probiotics and good bacteria in their stomach to strengthen their gut health and calm and overactive immune system. And this is why I use the Better Wild Allergy relief soft chews. And I'll be honest, when these showed up, I didn't know how Javi was going to react to them. He really likes popcorn and things like cheese, of which I give him only sparing amounts. But some things he will literally turn his little snoot up as these he devoured. So I was hesitant at first. No issues incorporating these into his diet. They're the first and only chews with ancestral advantage. Wolf probiotics derived from your dog's mighty ancestors, the wolf, that help restore a healthy balance of good bacteria in the gut. Better Wild is committed to helping your dog with science backed veterinarian approved solutions that you can feel great about. And right now, Better Wild is offering the listeners up to 40% off your order at betterwild.com cleared hot. That's betterwild.com cleared hot for up to 40% off your order. Betterwild.com cleared hot. Back to the show.

[B]

But when it comes to justice and like you're talking about truth, finding truth, right? Like in we're the Constitution and the idea of our country allowing for justice, how do you go forward and find that if you can't determine truth, like one of the quickest ways, again, just spending time thinking about where our country is going, which does tie into the veteran population, and I would also say what the veteran population is producing with their heirs, because I think that that's absolutely important for the direction of our country. But if you can't determine truth, right. Fundamentally, how does this country continue to move forward? And so then, to answer your question, if I'm going to. I'm going to have to rely then on feeling, right? I can't use empirical evidence when it comes to feeling. But if I have to feel my way through what I think is going to be truth, because I'm going to have to source it from 17 different sources that are out there, each one of those sources is going to have some form of a credibility score. I'm probably going to be the one that has to assign each one of those. Then I'm going to feel my way through it. Again, thinking about this the other day is if I really want to feel my way through this, then I have to strategize the way in which the group. Right. Who is up there, out there, 1%. If you want to go that far and be crazy with that, I guess the belief that they exist strategically.

[A]

What would you like about the Illuminati?

[B]

I'm trying not to, but sometimes it.

[A]

You can't. What do they call it behind that door? What's the word, the common word? That, of course, I can't remember, that everybody associates the deep state. The deep state, which I've said this many times, but I do believe. I don't think it's a bunch of people meeting in Monaco when they park their yachts in a semicircle, gingerly touched tips. I think of the hot ste. You guys get out of the gutter.

[B]

All right, Sometimes forcibly touch tips, too.

[A]

You never know what the tide is going to do. But I do think that people who achieve positions of status, wealth, influence and power want to maintain those things, don't.

[B]

Want to give it up.

[A]

And I think the deep state is people who are probably entrenched, specifically looking at our own system, who are in very heavily weighted positions, who want to maintain that position. That doesn't surprise me at all. I don't think it's as coordinated as people believe it to be, though. And I only say that because, I mean, I've interfaced with the government a little bit.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

They're not that coordinated or fancy.

[B]

Fair point. I agree with everything that you're saying. And to be honest with myself, I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing if I were them. And I came from generations of power and wealth and wanted to continue holding onto it. So again, then I'm going to look at how I would do it if I were in their shoes. Then I'm going to take that based on the 17 different groups that are providing me with information and play chess as to what I feel is the most likely outcome or reason for something happening. Which really sucks because that's not a very good way forward if we're just going based off of my gut hunch, like a 1980s detective Stallone Cobra detective movie. Right? Like, yeah. I feel it in my gut that this is it.

[A]

I mean, I can only imagine that flying around the world on like a G800 with enough money where you don't care about everything and you got all the houses and all the places and power and business. I mean, don't. Also, don't get me wrong, more money seems to bring more problems, and people with a lot of money are not absent of problems. But yeah, that probably seems like it would be awesome. And I would suspect that those people and not everybody who is at that level got there in a malicious manner. But you would probably do everything you could to protect what you have and maintain that status quo. I get that. It's hard to say, especially for somebody who, for me, I don't even. A, I wouldn't want that. But B, I also don't think I have the imagination to really fathom what that would be like. How can you really say how it would impact you as a person? Like, I think I know myself well and I do want to be able to sleep at night more than be able to fly around the world privately. So I would like to believe that I at least have some level of not, you know, impermanence to that. But are. You know, that I would try pretty hard.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Your eyes got really wide. Yeah. Morality.

[B]

Morality.

[A]

Does it.

[C]

Keeping morality through all of it because it might have been from a movie or something where it's just like money and power just magnify who you really are. Right. It could have been like an Avengers movie or something that said that. But like, you know, the more power and more money you get, it just magnifies the real root of who you are. So if you're an evil person and you're going to do anything to keep whatever you have, then you're just going to do that more and more the more rich you get. But if you're a moral person seeking truth and hopefully that's what you continue to do in the money and power doesn't change you.

[A]

That would be the hope having never.

[C]

Just test me, test me, give me, give me a couple billion and see what happens.

[A]

I want to know does a billionaire need me to test this theory? I would need court. I don't even need that much quarter of a billion dollars. We'll see how I do one year test.

[B]

I believe in myself, I think. But the problem with that, yeah, give me my billions, let me try this for sure. But. And I've always done this as kind of like a, like a thought experiment, you know, like how can you ensure though that your grandchildren are going to hold to your standards of morality, beliefs, ethics, seven generations from you, you know what I mean? I think that you can personally, I think that it takes a very like the agoge like these, the Spartans. Yeah.

[A]

But you'll be gone seven generations.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So it's got to three and a half gener in. They're going to have to handle that. And by that point you're, you're a dusty picture over the mantle.

[B]

Fair enough. Exactly. So they're like, and maybe I'm reaching for the stars here, but again if I have that is building a house, like we've talked about this before, like if I'm going to build a house and I'm going to have the generations that come beyond me and I want to make sure that they adhere to the standards that I've set for myself, for themselves, they have to buy into it. I have to get them to believe. And generally a lot of that has to do with doing the right thing and good things and then empirically being able to prove that actually by doing good things for other people, you actually feel better yourself. And if just again, strategically, if I do something good for you, it makes me feel better. Right. I'm increasing, you're increasing. If I can get you to then believe that if you help another person and essentially we all out bless one another, which is kind of a Buddhist monk. It's my understanding that in the, in the temples for the monks, the only thing that they're allowed to compete at is blessing one another. Right, right.

[A]

It's a toxic level of blessing.

[B]

What kind of blessing are you pulling off? But it is something that's interesting to consider is that if I literally give you my energy, Right. So that you can be better, we all float, we all get better, everybody rises. I think that, I think we can find it.

[A]

Trust me. I like that headspace. That's definitely a glass half full approach. Yes. And I think if you had to choose between this is also a false choice between glass half full and glass half empty because glasses are refillable, so we don't really need to worry about the volume that's currently in them. Everybody forgets that part. But if you only had the binary choice of half full or half empty, of course I would rather people live their life with the half full approach because the other one. I can't think of a faster way to rob yourself of joy or satisfaction or even a sense of accomplishment.

[B]

Well, and you had made mention earlier of the veteran population in the last 20 years and the direction that maybe it's going and the.

[A]

I don't know which way it's going. For clarity. I'm just curious. You guys are actually probably more connected with the veteran population than I am because you have a program dedicated to work with them. I still know people from my previous life, but I'm not actively out there participating in a program or with a group like yours. So you might actually have a better take on it than I do.

[B]

Yeah, I guess, more or less with the glass half full. Glass half empty is being able to. Because glass half empty to me is victim mentality. Right? Where things happen, bad things happen to me. And so I kind of identify with those. It does seem like to me that there is a. That you do see that predominantly in the veteran community. And I think that that is a byproduct of a lot of veterans being told that they're the victim. Especially when you go and speak to a counselor. I think that counseling over the past couple decades and Jordan Peterson speaks about this pretty frequently actually. So this isn't just my opinion, but there is a tendency to believe that you need somebody else to fix your problems. At mvp, one of the things that we focus on and that we see positive results from is showing the capacity that you are the thing that can overcome whatever obstacle is in front of you.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Reminding veterans that they are powerful and that they can take it on versus again, glass half full versus half empty. So that's one thing that I have noticed and it's kind of been the. Honestly, the reason for standing MVP up.

[A]

Do you think that they're using the victim mentality? Thought that there is a potential motivation behind that because there is financial reward and incentive. There are 40,000 service based organizations the last time I looked at this, and it's been a while around veterans, which by the way, I think is amazing. And there'll be a bell curve, right? Some that are great and some that are not great. Some that are probably doing A ton. Some that probably are using it as a pass through or a shield for taxes, whatever, that can sort itself out. But if there is an incentive to fall in line with the broken toy narrative, and I'm not saying that there is, I'm just pitching this out there because I don't know the answer to this. Whether it is VA rating system, applying for programs, grants, benefits, if those things are based on how damaged you are, are we misaligning incentives for those who maybe wouldn't necessarily go down that path absent that motivation?

[C]

You know, and an easier way to say that is if you're 90% disabled, but you don't struggle with PTSD on a daily basis and you want to get to 100%, it's better to say that I struggle with PTSD on a daily basis. So you can get to 100% tinnitus. They only give you get in that.

[A]

Booth and smash those buttons. This is not medical advice. Anybody and only vets will understand that.

[C]

Booth.

[A]

The number of times I've sat there and talked myself into, I'm like, I thought I heard the button or the beep.

[C]

My tinnitus is so loud that, like, I can't hear many of them. But it's. It's on a timer, right? Yeah. Like. And so you can.

[A]

Of course you're gonna game it. You're like, right about now.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Your brain, though. I mean, I remember the first one I did before even being in the military, being like.

[A]

Is that it?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

No, you sit. I don't know if it's a hearing test or an insanity test.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Are you doing both? Because you know, the person observing that, because you literally. I don't know how to describe this other than you are in a. Basically a vacuum booth that is so quiet with. What would you say the headphones are from the 1700s? They're not cutting edge Bose, A. Whatever noise canceling. It's got like a rubber clamp on your head and you're sitting there with your trigger.

[B]

It was pretty tight too, if I remember. Kind of like tight.

[A]

And sometimes it's not even sweating. I feel like it's not even that quiet sometimes with busy hallways nearby. And it. And it starts off like a pretty good beep. Like, if I remember this correctly, it started off loud and then it works its way down. And that's where you start talking yourself into hearing things.

[C]

Yeah. And you start tapping into the beat.

[A]

Yeah. That's where I wonder if it's an insanity test or a hearing test or both.

[C]

And Then it changes the tone and pitch too.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

As it's coming back up and going back down. And you're just like, I think, have you ever done the next test?

[A]

No.

[C]

So when, when you start getting hearing aids, they give you another test where I have to kind of. I have to look to confirm what I'm hearing is what you're saying. Right, okay. But it's just a recording of somebody that says, say a ball.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

And you have to repeat the last word of the sentence and it says, say a bat. Say a cat. Say a hat. And like it's doing so see?

[A]

Oh. And you're just listening to this and.

[C]

You'Re just listening and then you're talking to a person that you just met and you're going, hat, bat. I need to repeat. Can you repeat that one?

[A]

Same thing. Are you in those ridiculous same thing?

[C]

Yep. This is the same headphones. And you're just trying to guess and you're like, there's no way they said penis. There's no way that that's in this test. You know, but that's what I heard. That's what I heard. You know? And you're trying to like just guess what it is.

[B]

Why do I keep hearing cock?

[C]

And it's pretty hard because I can't read. Read lips and T's and B's and C's and all that stuff can kind of sound the same.

[A]

Well, if it's audio only. Yeah. I was in that booth one time. I was still pushing the button and the man opened the door, he was like, hey, it's, it's done. I was like, oh. And I mean, like, I have a little bit of ringing in my ears, but I think I had just talked myself into that rabbit hole. Just. The guy was like, dude, you can go.

[C]

Just, just leave. I'm gonna have to replace the trigger on that.

[A]

An even better test would be how long would somebody stay in there? An open ended here? I mean, I feel like some guys would be there for 60 minutes.

[C]

Do you have, do you have AirPods? Yeah. You can do the test now.

[A]

Really?

[C]

With an iPhone, you can do a hearing test. So I, I'll. I put mine in sometimes instead of my hearing aids and it'll help me.

[A]

Oh, it does work.

[C]

It'll amplify it. It's not the same as a expensive hearing hearing aids.

[A]

Well, it's because it has to transmit it to China so before it gets.

[C]

Its way, you know? Right.

[A]

I don't know about all that, but.

[C]

You can do that. You can do that same test. And you just touch the phone when it's beeping. And it's exact. It's exactly the same.

[A]

I could see a guy staying in that booth for an hour, full athletic sweat, like, needing electrolytes. And some downtime after that with it not even going, and just. Just at a 10.

[B]

And it depends on how bad he needs that score. Based on the disability rating that he's wanting to get, I would argue he could be there for 96 hours, you know, depending on how bad he wants to death.

[A]

I could see taking it close, just.

[B]

Taking it, you know.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's. I don't want anybody to be disqualified from anything that they are deserving of. That is the last thing that I want. But I also don't want people to game the system. And it's a really fine balance.

[C]

It is.

[A]

Especially with some of these things. How do any of us know what's going on between somebody's ears? I don't. And I don't even try to.

[C]

We've had this talk a couple times over the last two days of people from the outside thinking that they understand who somebody is. You know, just from observation. Even somebody close to you, like an aunt or an uncle or something, trying to gauge what's going on in your life with your family. And it's not a fair assumption. You know, Luke and I are pretty close friends. I still can't gauge how he should feel about something or how his marriage is going or anything like that, because it's his own. You know, he's the main character of his movie.

[A]

Take it a step farther than that. Have either of you ever done something and surprised yourself and then had to have a moment of like, why did I do that? I mean, I'm not even an expert. I mean, I'm pretty good at knowing myself, but I'm not even perfect when it comes to understanding myself. I'm gonna somehow become a radar. I did clarify. Dan and I were arguing about radar versus sonar. Bats use echolocation, which is portion of radar. He. Unfortunately, he was a little bit correct about only that in the episode. Everything else was untruthful. And I won the honesty.

[B]

Agreed. That's an important measure to win.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, echolocation. So what are you going to do? You're going to. You're going to try to project that on somebody else and be an expert on them when I don't know anybody who's even an expert on themselves? I mean, come on, what are we doing here?

[C]

Well, and you can Even take that a step further. I mean, I don't want to pick on Dan at all, but he can be a good human and have done something wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I mean? Like, he can still be somebody you can rely on.

[A]

Both those things can be very true.

[C]

They can be so true. But oftentimes, because we get so divided, and you're either red or blue. You guys talked about a lot on that podcast. You know, you have to be on one team or the other. We paint people that way, too. I used to be in ministry. I was. I was a pastor for a little while after the military. And one of the pastors that was my boss, he used to say, these brownies are great. You like them, right? Yep. Well, I just put a little bit of poop in there, so it's okay. And that. That. That meaning his analogy, Meaning that once a person has sin, that whole batch of brownies is ruined. You wouldn't need a batch of brownies with a little bit of poo in them. I probably have.

[A]

And would it be put in. In the mix or afterwards? Because I feel like you can roll.

[C]

It in the mix.

[A]

Is it cut up into 100 squares?

[C]

I got a one and a hundred switch one, right? No, it's. It's in the mix, and it could be. It's. There's a. There's a little fecal matter in every brownie, you know, and that's. That's what he's trying to say. And I don't agree with that statement, because I think that you could just like you said, you can make these decisions and kind of surprise yourself that that's the decision you made in the moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But that doesn't make you a horrible person.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

It makes you somebody that made a bad decision in a moment. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And humans can't be a batch of brownies. We're not like. We're humans.

[A]

It's amazing how little gray. And I struggle with this, too. And I was probably not great at this when I was younger, but being able to provide that grace for people, because I'm the one who needs it more than anybody else. And, I mean, now that I'm older, I recognize that in myself, but the ability to just, you know, maybe I didn't catch them on their best moment, but I bet they have really good moments. And for everybody but pedophiles, I'm willing to do that.

[B]

I think grace goes a long ways. Just for yourself, too, right? Like, being able to forgive yourself as a talent. That takes time. To develop that and kind of get off your own case. Right? I do. So going back to the disability and veterans looking for that. Right. And so.

[A]

And it doesn't have to be necessarily be disability rating. I mean, you there just go on the Internet and look for things that are available for veterans. And I haven't done this, but I bet that over 50% of the things that are available are likely for combat wounded veterans.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I am not saying that negatively, but if a pie cuts more in one direction than the other, it should surprise nobody that there are more of those types of applications or people pursuing that than another. I think that's just human nature.

[B]

Right. Well, because I've thought about this quite a bit too, because it seems that then you end up having like, for example, to get 100% disability. Right. And if I go for PTSD, that's one way that it's hard to tell what's going on between your ears, because I can't figure out what's going on between my ears. Right. And so if you say the right things on this test. Right. Then I can say, boom, 100 for you. Now, the reality is that you were, you know, in the Air Force and didn't ever see combat. And so then do you really rate a hundred percent for ptsd? Well, who the hell am I to say? Because I don't know actually what causes you to, you know, deal with post traumatic stress symptoms past the event that you experienced that messed you up?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's kind of hard for us, like you're saying, to be able to measure who's got what X, Y and Z. So I just wondered if maybe in just this big picture, trying to solve everything and being a dreamer, I guess, but if we were to just.

[C]

You.

[B]

Know, come up with categories. Everybody who does serve in the military just rates a disability. Like, so if you did so much time and you were in this MOS grouping, you would rate so much money, class A, class B, class C. And then generally, it seems like to me, in my experience, combat MOS's, motor T, I would put into this group as well a lot experience quite a bit of. I'm not a big fan of the word trauma, but experience heavy shit. And so clinical term, it just kind of got hijacked. And so it's like kind of like therapy. It gets used for everything.

[A]

My daughter will say there's too much trauma from your drama. So, yes, it's been hijacked.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't actually know, Michael. I would need to lean on your Generation for this. What is an appropriate response to somebody saying there's too much trauma from your drama? And by the way, that was based on a request to put a dish in the dishwasher, just for clarity. So with that information in mind, what do I do with this?

[B]

That's too new even for me to decipher.

[A]

Is there any vernacular that I could throw back in her direction?

[B]

Six, seven. Six, seven.

[A]

I feel like she's actually too old for that. I have a nephews ate and he was all about that. It was everything from yes, no to go f yourself. I mean, everything. Nothing. So I just have to eat this one. She got it.

[B]

Yeah. You kind of have to. I'm at a loss as well on this one.

[C]

I'm gonna lean towards slay queen, but.

[A]

I don't know if that's the right response to that one. I sat there, I think, with my jaw partially on the floor. She did go put it in the dishwasher and then just vaporized into her room. I'm like, man, usually I do better than this.

[B]

So she just silenced you, did what she needed to do and. And just disappear to her room. And so she kind of won.

[A]

Based off what you're saying, the word being hijacked. I'm sitting there, I'm like, there's too much trauma for your drama. What just happened?

[B]

How do I interpret this? God damn it. I don't even know what the kids mean anymore.

[A]

Go watch TikTok again or whatever. It's tough to keep up with. No, I mean, it's a clinical term and people. Maybe they hear it too much, but it is what it is, right? And trauma is. I mean, it could be physical, it could be emotional, it could be psychological. It could be all through of those things. I mean, I don't know. On the brain, what's the difference in trauma between an IED blast or getting into a really bad car wreck that you're not at fault with here in the. I don't know. I don't know how that scrambles your eggs or the geometry of what goes.

[B]

On between your ears and how long it is going to have lasting effects on your psyche. Right? Like, fair enough.

[C]

And each person that if you could somehow manifest the same exact combat scenario or the same exact car accident or sexual trauma or, you know, verbal abuse or whatever it may be, but if you could take two people that are at 17 years old or whatever, right. And put them through that same exact trauma, it's gonna. Each one of them, because of their life experiences leading up to that are gonna handle it differently when they come out the other end. And so one of them may be okay because that's how they decided to handle that and that's what their life upbringing brought them to. And one person may be traumatized for the next few years without talking with someone, can't get through it. And so that's why it's hard to put a ranking system on your PTSD versus yours.

[A]

I tell you what though, this is what leads me back to I like the ide agogi and I don't mean children beating each other to death almost like in the spartan times. I mean a place where you intentionally go and do hard things. Because I do think the that hyper realistic training that the community I came from did participated in the vast number of reps scenario based training integrating a variety of different things from room clearance, right to a medical problem, right to like a key leader in working through all that stuff. I'm not going to say it makes you immune from anything, but it helps you kind of deal with that stuff. I can, I mean I can think back. I haven't thought about this in years. We were out in the Navahar province in 2010 was the last deployment that I did. And when we first got there we were co located with the Afghan national army and the Afghan National Police, which is the subject matter of a movie in and of itself. Man, they are an interesting group. So we shortly after that made a FOB and you know, the locals didn't seem to mind us that much. The people who were a little bit outside of the locals had an issue. And so I don't know if you guys ever experienced this. Instead of putting up mortar tubes, they would just put artillery shells on the ground and they would basically just prop them up with the fuse, light them off and very inaccurate. But we would get shelled. Not incredibly often, but I remember one time we. It was probably more accurate than the more recent experiences. And you guys know the deal. It's like, okay, like if there is an indirect attack, we might be looking for something there. Try to keep our head down. Want to get to high ground position to make sure we're not going to get bum rushed on the ground. So I'm like, okay, head up there. That's what we're starting to do. Not. It is not fun. It is actually one of my least favorite things to be on the receiving end of indirect fire. I absolutely hate it because you have no idea what's happening, where it's going to land and no Control whatsoever. So. And I remember in this one I was wearing shorts and I think flip flops because I had been sleeping. At best, it was a shorts, T shirt and running shoes type of day with armor on. And just this day's. Yeah. And it finishes up. It didn't last that long. And I. And I don't want to overplay this, it wasn't some amazing war story by any stretch, but you can forget all of the training and experience you bring with you because we had support staff that was with us. And one of the main things people may not understand when you're in a remote area like that, your lifeline is your radios. And I am not a tech guy, but we have people who are legitimately there. And your guys will probably. MOS in our world was an nec. That's what they call the job classification. And these guys were amazing. I mean, they're handling the crypto right, the generator, making sure the radio is on the right frequencies, the antennas are the right direction, the bearing and azimuth, all that stuff. And we had a little hesco shelter. And I remember, I can't remember his name, but I remember the guy specifically. I'm like, we'll call him Bob. I went into the talk, I'm like, where is Bob? He was out in the Hescos smoking a cigarette, shaking. And he had been out there, I think for over an hour, like stuck.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that happens.

[A]

Yeah, it fried him. And I was thinking about it. I'm like, okay, that wasn't that much fun at all. There was actually zero fun involved in that. And it wasn't without its fear and scary moments, but that has passed. And it was one of those moments where like, okay, we're not all playing with the same deck of cards when it comes to our ability to tolerate this stuff. He ended up getting not medevac, but he got moved over to a larger base and then out of country, out of that. It was. It just. It was too much. And then I realized he didn't have the same training, he didn't have the same reps. He didn't have any real way also to fight back. I don't think he had any mechanism or ability to do anything about it. So he was just on the receiving end of this unknown, which is what sucks the most about idf. So.

[C]

Well, and. And we. We actually end up talking about this on some of our trips as well, because anybody that has a DD214 can come with us and experience what we go through.

[A]

Does it have to be a Real one.

[C]

Yes, preferably. Preferably, yeah.

[A]

We live in a Photoshop era.

[C]

We do.

[A]

I can get you several DD214s.

[B]

We're gonna have to solve.

[A]

Yeah, you're gonna have to deploy AI against AI. I've determined that's the only way through this.

[C]

Well, and we're trying, we're trying to go through like ID me or you know, you know, go backs or something like that to work on verification because it is a. It, it is a real problem, unfortunately, that people might not be super honest, but that, that becomes a problem that some people that suffer from PTSD aren't in a combo combat mos, but they spent time fob.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they just got shelled all the time. You know, I think about some of the mechanics that never left. They don't know what the outside of the FOB looks like. Besides, on the one drive in they did. Yeah.

[A]

But they know what fear feels like.

[C]

Exactly. And we got shelled a bunch when we were in Tikrit. We got, we got hit all the time. But I got to be on QRF or I got to be on guard on the, you know, and I got to see and hear about the reports of. Oh yeah, it was just in the back of a truck and they had a mortar tube and they shot and they got lucky this time and that's why it came close. But those guys didn't even get to hear those reports. They didn't even know are we getting shelled again tomorrow? And that seems like it would be harder. And so I'm glad you brought that up. I think it is harder because like, he had a really difficult time because you got to go to a high point and see what was going on. He has to wait and manage the radios.

[A]

I talked to a few psychiatrists about this, or psychologists. They call it the locus of control. The vast majority of time when we were overseas or when we encountered violence, it was of our choosing. So we were in control of that. That has. And I'm not going to say this is like a very high degree of certainty or understanding of how this happens. I would leave that to the professionals. But it impacts the residual effects of those things. So if you're on the other side of that, like the people we're talking about, some of the most shattered people that I've seen from a distance. So I am making a snap judgment about the people I'm about to talk about. I didn't speak with them, but they looked as if they were hopeless. And I don't say that In a negative way, because I wouldn't. There's not enough money in the world for me to do their job. They were the minesweepers on Route 1 in Afghanistan. And this was in a time where they're burying 1500 pounds of homemade explosives and flipping MRAPs hundreds of feet into the air, and these people are just getting into the back of vehicles with no ability to do anything other than sit there and wait and wonder. So the opposite of the locus of control that has to fry your eggs. How could that not. But that. I mean that. And again, it goes to the person who had no choice versus the person that does have choice. Not saying that there's not trauma associated with that and potential negative implications, but I think there's. It's hugely weighted for the person who is choosing to initiate violence or exposure to violence. Probably your ability to deal with it well.

[B]

And you've gotten quite a bit of training. Obviously. One of the things that. So your story about Bob. One of the things that. And I don't know. I think that this comes from the training and the exposure to stressful situations is still being able to find a goal, right? Like, for him, he's on the roof, he's having a cigarette. He's fried. He doesn't know what to do. He's in the bunker or in the bunker.

[C]

Sorry.

[B]

He was not on the roof.

[C]

I think he might be wrong there. I don't think he was on the roof.

[B]

He's in the bunker, and he's fried. Right. And at that moment, I'm assuming he's combat ineffective. He's not doing much for the team. Probably isn't getting the radio up. Probably isn't able to fix the radio if it gets hit. Comms are kind of down, whatever it may be in that situation. But it seems like to me, being able to build into and help folks understand that step one to get out of that. Right, Is breathe. Like, let's engage our prefrontal cortex. You got to breathe, right? Cigarettes will help. Right?

[A]

Just because I don't think that's what he's going for. But I get what you're saying.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? But, like, we got to breathe, dude. We got to re. Engage our brain, and then we got to find step one. What is step one? What is a goal? I need you to find a goal even for the folks that are out doing the IED sweeps. And I do remember that era when it was go find IEDs by stepping on them. I remember that. I was over right Before Fallujah, we were running around in Humvees that had, you know, they didn't even have the high backs yet. We just had the fiberglass rails and we didn't have any type of flooring. We had flat bottoms. Well, they weren't like flat bottoms, but they had the rails that would. In the fold up seating in the back. Is that we call them.

[A]

Well, I think the overmatch on a. The with a flat bottom or a non VEED hole is about a pound and a half of explosives because it's so flat.

[B]

So I mean, so we were running around and you got sandbags. Like that's what's protecting us from the blast from underneath. And at that time now IEDs start picking up because I wasn't there for the initial evasion. But I think it was. Oh, I think it was three that I was there, if I remember correctly. And so IEDs had started picking up. And so then it was kind of trying to figure out the, you know, what was the detonator, if it was victim initiated or if it was something that they could set off with a cell phone. But I do remember getting tasked with just like, all right, team, you're going that way. You guys are all sweeping. We didn't have any type of metal detectors at the time. And it was just like, okay, what.

[A]

Are you just shuffle your feet like it's a stingray.

[B]

You're just kind of looking for anything that seems out of place, which is.

[A]

Everything, by the way, is just trash.

[C]

Everywhere and dead dog and random clothes and little bags of whatever. All of those at one point had an IED in them.

[A]

You take me to a pristine beach along the Pacific Ocean, and if you told me that there was nothing there that was going to hurt me, I'm like, oh, this is amazing. If you told me there was an IED buried somewhere, every ripple in the sand looks very suspect to me at this point.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I mean, it's like, what, Go look for something?

[B]

Yeah. But I mean, like, literally, even in that you're like, okay, well, what the fuck? What's my goal? What's my next thing that I can do? The next step? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Okay, next step.

[C]

Nothing.

[B]

Nothing, Nothing, Nothing.

[A]

Boom. People would not want to believe that that is actually how some military operations went down. They don't want to believe that as.

[B]

The battlefield is adapting to what the enemy is doing, you don't have a choice but to be out and doing things of that nature. And that's just how it was early on when we were in Iraq and I never made it to Afghanistan but.

[A]

It was like Iraq but with mountains.

[B]

Yes, I've heard it's pretty similar.

[C]

I prefer Iraq.

[A]

The bigger cities. A lot of similarities. The Hindu Kush. Honestly some of the most beautiful terrain I've ever seen.

[B]

I've heard that.

[A]

Yeah. I mean it's the. It's part of the Himalayas range. I mean it looks amazing. Slightly less amazing with plunging PKM fire coming at you out of an elevated position. But still you can appreciate the moment.

[B]

At least there's nice scenery.

[A]

Maybe this is setting over the elevated.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

Fine. Be a glass half full.

[B]

It could be worse.

[A]

Yeah, this could be worse I guess. How did you two link up?

[B]

Okay so Brian came with us on a trip trip in 2000 or what was that? 20? 21.

[C]

It was 21 or 22.

[B]

22, yeah.

[C]

This will be my fourth year with with MVP. So.

[B]

So.

[A]

So you were a participant?

[C]

I was a participant, yeah. My. You're familiar with North 40. It's like the Murdochs but they have a non compete so any town that has a Murdoch doesn't have a North 40 but Great Falls has two of them.

[A]

And so it's two Murdochs or two North 40s.

[C]

Two North 40s.

[A]

Are you serious with this? You guys can't have a Murdaughs.

[C]

Nope. They have a non compete.

[A]

We have two here if you guys need to stop and get anything along the way.

[C]

Murdoch's.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yep. Yep. And we have no bring some Murdoch.

[A]

Swag back to G Falls.

[C]

Right. But that was not even needed in this conversation. But she works there and one of the. Actually one of the founders also works at North 40 and he convinced her to convince me to go on a trip.

[A]

And how did they know to talk to to you?

[C]

She's pretty open about me being a veteran. I don't know if she wears a shirt that says my husband's a veteran or whatever but why does she want.

[A]

You to go is my.

[C]

Is what I'm saying. Well this particular individual is very obviously a combat Marine. You know what I'm saying? You can spot him. And so she's like you're a veteran.

[A]

What do you mean.

[C]

Not the best socialist. Like he can't socializing with with civilian personnel becomes difficult and frustrating for him very quickly.

[A]

So. I know exactly. Obviously the what do you mean is tongue in cheek. Do you think that people who struggle with that post military had that issue before? Yes, because I think there's very easy to associate many of these Things like, oh, the Marine Corps did this to him. Like, some of the most social people I know are ex Marines. That's what I'm saying. I actually. I think there's a lot of. It's an interesting gap when you go into the military. It is almost as if any bizarre things you may have brought with you, a suitcase full of your own personal luggage. It's as if it's left at the door. And then you get out of the military and everything is associated to that short time period that you were in the military. It's like, yeah, I think crazy is just crazy before. And so then you can do stuff outside of that, but you might actually on your ramp down out of the military, that. That. That luggage compartment might be sitting there, you know, I mean, here's your rucksack, buddy. Throw that sucker back on.

[C]

Well, and I mean, we even kind of talked about it, too, with. With ratings and different things like that. Like, some people just want to fall under a certain label and allow those excuses in their life and not try to fix it. And I'm not saying that's true for him.

[A]

Do you talk to this guy often?

[B]

Yep, all the time.

[A]

Yeah. Does it serve him well to be that way?

[C]

Way. Go ahead, Luke.

[A]

Well, I ask because there's two. Well, there's two different types, largely those that are aware that they're doing it and those that are not.

[C]

I think there's certain levels of it he is aware, and there's certain levels he's not. And he. I think most of the time with. With this gentleman, he is trying to do the most expedited form of, let's stock these shelves with yetis. But he treats that the same as, let's clear this road of IEDs, and so, like, let's get it done. Let's do it. And that doesn't come off very polite. And so I think. But. But the job still gets done as fast as he wants. He just might have made some people mad while doing it.

[B]

Add something to it, too, having served with the guy and got to be an instructor with him.

[A]

Oh, you know this person well?

[B]

Very, very well.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like Brian was saying, he's one of the founding members for the Montana vet program.

[A]

Did you start it for him?

[B]

Was he in mind? Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

[A]

We're all excited.

[B]

We all need some help.

[A]

My buddy needs help here. So what I need to do is a very obscure idea that will take years and will work its way back to this.

[B]

I've got a plan here.

[A]

It's called the Long hair, it's going.

[B]

To work its way out to save your life. But in the Marine Corps, an exceptional, exceptional operator, thinker, capable of doing tons of military style, you know, needs work.

[A]

Whatever task, short term tasks.

[B]

Yeah. And feelings aren't involved because you just do what I say. And the task is this, you know, goal is this, let's go get it done. We work together for the most part.

[A]

I say feelingless. I've seen Marines come, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah, you're looking at one, bro. Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

[A]

You guys have feelings, you hide them under amazing class A's, but I've seen it.

[B]

Yeah, fair enough. And you just bury that shit way, way deep down under the J.D. right.

[A]

But.

[B]

And so exceptional guy, you know. But when it comes to like working with civilians, I would say yes, there is sometimes frustrations for him when dealing with, you know, folks that don't just take orders and so. But to your point, I would say that, yeah. A lot of times I think especially when it comes to disability related to psychological issues. The majority of that shit you're bringing in. One thing that you could reconsider is the testing that we do prior to letting folks into the military a lot of times. And you might have seen this. It sounds like Bob could have fallen into this category. Maybe he should have never been there in the first place. Now how do you get, how do you get more folks to come into the military when we're having issues getting folks in the military and then trying to get the most qualified based on some psychological tests that maybe we have, maybe we don't. I don't know.

[A]

I have an idea how we immediately solve our recruiting crisis. Over 10 years in. You never pay tax again.

[C]

I think I've heard you say that before. I think so.

[A]

I think it would allow you to raise the standards on a lot of things. When I went in, I believe it was the ASVAB and an old man telling a group of 20 people to drop their drawers as he's like. And this was the duck walk. Yeah, this I need to probably clarify. This hand signal, this is not like an insertion check that came later with the bare knuckle boxer who was the dive medical officer. This was like the undercarriage, cough, cough, cough. But this guy there was. Could have worked for Barnum and Bailey.

[C]

There was observation. There was observation from behind as well. Did you get that as well? That after, after this there was turn around and bend over and it was just like to look at the brown eye. I don't know if it was just an old perverted guy that was at the Butte.

[A]

I don't remember that. But let's be. I mean, this was 30 years ago in the rear view mirror. It could have happened. It was such a bizarre experience and it was just.

[C]

I need to look at it and I'm like, I don't, I don't know what you're looking for.

[A]

Take a picture of the back.

[B]

I just remember doing the duck walk and just feeling awkward.

[A]

Well, right now. Well, I mean, I'm sure we were all in towards the tail end. They started having, you know, wavering stuff started coming back in whether. I mean, I think when I joined tattoos, they were looking at really heavily. So the waiver for tattoos, that just was kind of like the lexicon of the day shifted. So they started letting people in. Obviously, probably gonna have issues. If you have a full face tattoo, they're not gonna let you in. But then like felony waivers, moral waivers, morality waivers, forget exactly what they called it. Yeah, it's. I think if you incentivize it properly, you could probably. We have a set of robust standards that nets the person who is the most well tuned for the job, not the person who. And this isn't everybody, but at some people, they look at the military as a measure of last resort. I would prefer that we figure out a way to make it a measure of first choice.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

And I mean, like, you know, I'm not a mathematician, nor do I understand the impact that not having people pay taxes after 10 years would make. But it's not that many people.

[C]

People.

[A]

0.05% of people right now of our citizens are serving in the military. I think we'd, we'd be okay. So let's not pretend like the DoD has ever passed an audit. So I think we're gonna, I mean, people are gonna nickel and dime this. I'm like, well, how far do you want to go? Because DoD doesn't do so well on our audits.

[B]

We gotta get a budget passed anyway. So think about that though.

[A]

That would change people idea of that.

[B]

I agree with that. And I, and I think to the idea of you do 10 years again, don't pay taxes again, and then you're, you get a disability rating or a compensation, whatever you want to call it.

[A]

You know, you do another 10, you get the, the med, the medical pension, all that stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. And if I'm not mistaken, doesn't the US Senator like do four years and then rate retirement pay?

[A]

So I looked this up because I was smashed, Dan, with this I was doing my research. No, they become eligible for it, but it's. It's graduated and based on how long they've actually been. So that is a very common talking point that I was going to use against Dan.

[C]

Okay. And then you couldn't.

[B]

I'm glad that you got to educate.

[A]

And then I've stood on that. I'm like, I'm gonna. Because I was waiting him for him to say, well, yeah, we shouldn't get paid anything. Like, you get paid $174,000 a year. So you're doing just fine. Just so is everybody else. Then I was gonna say, and after four years, you get a pension. That's not. Not true.

[C]

It's not true. Dang it.

[B]

So that crushes mine.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That'S like the worst when you find that out on AI Some question that you're just, like, stood on so.

[A]

Many times eligible, but it's at a fraction of the percentage. So they have to work their way in. It's a pretty substantial amount of time they have to do to get it.

[C]

And so it's motivation to get reelected and stay in and keep the same people in.

[A]

I think there's a lot of motivations for that job to do that. That's one of them.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, I would agree that. I think that that is a way to. Again, I think the teachers fall into this as well. Right. Like that we have teaching the next generation. I think the next generation is something that we. I'm sure that everybody thinks the same thing, but we need to focus on the next generation quite a bit more than we do when we have a group of people who are teaching them that have some of the lowest pay, $40,000 to be a teacher per year. That doesn't incentivize any of the top graduates to come and teach our youth who are going to be taking over the country in the next 20, 40, 50 years. And we still want to stay on top as the United States, America. Then you're going to have a hard time persuading me that we truly want to stay on top as a country, because if I was running this, I would have our best teaching our children so that our children can get smarter. And again, this just helps everybody improve upon the layering and the time spent in. But again, if we could get the best into the military, best into the teaching careers for our children, I think our country would be sitting in a better place now and into to, you know, the future when we eventually go into, you know, Warhammer 40K space marine era, which, which I think we're about.

[A]

Several days away from.

[B]

We're close, right.

[C]

At this point. We're almost.

[A]

You guys were in. Did you ever think there would be a conflict like Ukraine, where essentially DJI drones have been weaponized and are just flying back and forth.

[C]

Have you seen some of the photos of the cities with the, the.

[A]

The wiring? Yeah, the fields. Yeah, the fields. When the sun hits it at the right angle and it's just this fiber optic.

[C]

Fiber optic.

[A]

Michael's pulled him up a couple times before he. Yeah, I never once thought about it neither.

[C]

Neither did I. Not, not one. Not when I was in. And we, we started with some drones and we had to have like a special guy from the Air Force come down with a drone and we'd all stand around and watch him take off this thing, you know, watch him unbox the DJI drones.

[A]

Like I'm specially trained on this. Like what, you had the credit card and you went to the Best Buy.

[C]

Right, Right, exactly.

[B]

He's got his fist, he's got everything.

[C]

I never thought that we would have the drone footage. We do of, you know, a grenade loaded drone going to land.

[A]

What was their accuracy to drop it down an open turret from what looks to be a couple of hundred feet. It did it again, Michael. I thought you fixed it with the tv.

[C]

Yeah. Do you see that? Look at that image of the big one there.

[B]

I got a question for you then, kind of based on this. Yeah, I get this quite often. Is there a spot for the human grunt in warfare in the next 30 years or is it replaced by drones or.

[A]

I don't think so. Because, I mean, first off, that's a startling image.

[C]

It is, it's. It's a disturbing image as well.

[B]

So help me understand this. I guess I'm.

[A]

What you're seeing it. So what laterally, from left to right or right to left? What you are seeing is the fiber optic cable. A lot of these drones are fiber optically controlled. Controlled as opposed to remotely because jam has become less of it. I don't know enough about this. I mean, I'm sure there's a countermeasure for everything. So maybe there's a fiber opt. Whatever. Maybe it's a net. I don't know. But that is the residual of the drones flying over. That's what's left over.

[B]

So like from javelins or whatnot. Like they've got their.

[A]

I think.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So the TOW missile had the fiber optic that. So you could guide it in as it was Going in. And the drones work the same way again so you can't jam them.

[A]

I do think there's a place, though, because let's say, say if it became exceptionally unsafe to go outside, what are you going to do? You're going to fortify inside. How do you solve that problem? Robot dogs is obviously the answer, but robot quadrupeds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But until we get to that point, I think there's always going to be a place for boots on the ground or for things like what just happened in Venezuela like that. I don't know how you do that with the drone. There's always going to be a place for the, you know, ability to put human beings on a target, to discriminate and discern what needs to be done like that.

[B]

That's why I've always argued and said the same thing, is that you're never going to get the grunt at the human out of war. Just for the. The importance of decision making on the ground.

[A]

Yeah. What do they describe it? So there's the human's in the loop, which is, I think, the way it is right now. The human would be on the loop, meaning autonomous things have to check in with us for final approval. And there's humans out of the loop. Loop, which is when Terminator becomes a documentary. Skynet goes live, becomes self aware. I actually. Michael, please. Since you've never seen this movie because you're a child.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Look up the date that Skynet became self aware. I'm pretty sure we're passing.

[B]

I think we're passing.

[C]

Yeah. We need to know.

[B]

I think we're like, God. I looked at this, it might have been like 10 years ago.

[A]

What did it say?

[B]

I used to watch that show. Skynet became so far on August 29, 1997.

[A]

What?

[C]

What? No way.

[A]

Are you looking up at actual Skynet. Because this is from.

[B]

In the Terminator universe. Comma. Skynet became software in 1997.

[A]

How are we so wrong? I thought it was. I thought it was at least the 20 odds.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I was one year out of high school when Skynet became aware.

[C]

Son of a. I was a sophomore.

[B]

We need Sarah Connor.

[A]

Well, it's clearly been a while since I've watched that documentary. Why did you want to start mvp?

[B]

So I got out. Did eight. Eight and a half years in. What you do while you're in Scout Sniper. Yep. So my first four, I did three deployments to Iraq. First one was Fallujah. Came back, indocked into the sniper platoon, did two more deployments as the first one As a team leader and then second one as chief scout for our platoon. Got done with that, went up to the Mountain Warfare Training center, became a instructor at the Mountain Scout Sniper course there. Uh, that for about three years, three and a half years. I was looking into going into border patrol. We had some BORTAC guys come and train with us. I love their mission, thought it was sexy. But I got three kids at the same time, right. And so I head home back to Montana with my wife and three kids. We get up here and I couldn't move my, my kids away from family again. Right. We got home, we got kind of settled in for a couple months and it felt right. So decided to go to school. Was getting my degree in psychology. I was fortunate enough to work at the vet center for the va, so specializing in ptsd, military sexual trauma and this. They try to stay away from a sterilized feel if you're familiar with vet centers while I was there. And again, I'm just working as a work study, right. So I'm going to school, getting my degree. This is how I'm making a little bit of income, getting able to do my homework while I was there. I know noticed the approach for dealing with PTSD in that, you know, somebody comes in, says on the couch, you talk about your feelings and your, you know, your issues and then you leave. Having also had a major influence in my life. That was my father in law who was in Vietnam, Special Forces 5th Group. Had some, dealt with some stuff in his time. And so he had a lot of, of a big impact on me. But at that time, 22 kill was a big number. I don't know if you remember that veteran suicide and that was about 2012 when that was going on. And so I just felt that there was a different way that we could go about improving mental health for warriors that were coming home. And I didn't think that sitting on a couch talking to a counselor. At that time there weren't a whole lot of counselors that had combat experience. So there was a little bit of a breakdown A lot of times. Sometimes guys and gals don't want to speak with somebody who's never been there, right? There's a little bit of a, you know, you aren't there so you wouldn't know mentality. And so the idea of getting veterans into the backcountry and being around other veterans that have had this experience and being able to show them tangible ways in which that you could alleviate like that chokehold that Bob was experiencing from fear Right. Like that happens after combat in the civilian world. And if you don't know how to get through it, you don't know how to get that goal to get yourself re centered and move forward. You can get stuck in that loop. And again, just sitting on a couch talking to a counselor didn't seem like it was hitting the mark. So I felt that there was a better way to go about it. Also, the. The Marine that we were talking about earlier, in a very nice way, Scott, he had an idea. Backdoor enthusiast or outdoor?

[C]

I caught that.

[A]

I was gonna let that go.

[C]

No, I wasn't gonna let it go.

[A]

I'm not gonna tell people how to live their life.

[B]

Yeah, whatever.

[A]

As long as it's consensual adults, I don't care.

[C]

That country back.

[B]

Well, I was gonna say outdoor enthusiast.

[C]

But you just mix the two and yeah, it happens. Right?

[B]

Short strokes of words.

[A]

Does it just happen? I don't know. I feel like there's planning that goes into that. Probably some prep.

[B]

Been studying all week to make sure I got that right. Anyway, he had an idea of taking all the dog tags from the men and women who've died in Iraq and Afghanistan and putting them into a pig egg. That's a term that comes from the Marine Corps scout sniper community, and essentially a sandbag that we use to incur suffering and get people to quit. Right. To wash out the weak. You know, pig eggs. Um, and so, yeah, he had that idea. We kind of put it all together and just started taking bets into the back country. And here we are now, 10 years later.

[A]

Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify. Listen again. We're in the new year. Do you want to look back at the end of this year and say to yourself, I wish I had done fill in the blank. There are so many people that reach out to me, and they say, I like what I'm doing right now, but it doesn't fulfill me. I'm not passionate about it. I want to do something else. And my advice to them always is make sure that you protect what you have right now so you can provide. But then in your off time, start building and exploring what it is and what you want to be. We live in a digital world, and so many people are out there. They're looking for things, whether it's shopping or courses or whatever it may be. And if your desire is to be in that world, to create something that you can sell to people and market to them digitally, which is the world we live in, whether we like it or not. 2026 is the year to do this and do it now. Don't look back at the end of the year and wish you had done it. Get on board. Click over to Shopify and start building that digital business that you want to. Shopify gives you everything that you need to sell in person and online. Millions of entrepreneurs have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners that are just getting started. When I started selling merchandise for the podcast, guess what? I used Shopify and I still do to this day. So we are eight or nine years at this point. I designed the page, I uplo loaded everything and let's be clear, if I can figure it out, you can too. It is super easy and convenient to do. You can set it up fast with Shopify's built in AI tools that write product descriptions and headlines and can help you edit your photos. Marketing is built in too. You can create email and social campaigns that reach customers wherever they happen to be scrolling. It's very user friendly. And again, I'm saying that as somebody who isn't a Tech guy in 2026. Stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com ClearedHot Go to shopify.com ClearedHot that is again shopify.com ClearedHot Hear your first cha ching this new year with Shopify by your side. Back to the show. What do you think about the Marine Corps getting rid of the scout sniper program?

[B]

So there's a lot to that, right? Yeah, I mean initially, I mean first thing I think was a Commandant Gray. I think that was the one who made the decision for that. I don't think it's a good idea. But I also don't think that the scout sniper community at the time did themselves any favors.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I don't think that they approached. I don't think they approached it right for the longevity of the mosquito. And so that's kind of all I'll say with that.

[A]

How do they bridge that capability now that it's gone though? I mean obviously there'll be some legacy people who could fill that role for now, but if they don't have a training pipeline for it, it goes away.

[B]

So I believe the O3 21, the recon community picks it up, which studs and can absolutely doesn't mean that it shouldn't be something that's available at the battalion as a battalion asset as it was before, even regimental asset would be, I think beneficial too. And now they have scout Platoons, They've taken away the long guns, if I'm not mistaken. I don't keep up with too much of this, But I think O321's picked it up.

[A]

As long as there's not a capability gap, I'm. I'm happy to hear that. It's. I didn't understand the decision, nor did it. It really ring that close home to me. So I was aware that it had happened, but I didn't understand the potential cascading effects. Okay.

[C]

Have.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, okay, you have this idea 10 years ago. How'd you put it into action? What was the first trip like?

[B]

Yeah, so I got to get. Okay, so this is part of my. So I'm going to school. So then it's part of my master's degree. Right. Like to. So. So I'm killing two birds with one stone. Right. Because at the same time, I'm also building houses, and I've got three kids and a wife, and so it's kind of trying to juggle a bunch of stuff. Right. So as I'm doing that, I'm able to get Eagle Mount Great Falls, which is a local nonprofit, to let us jump underneath them as an umbrella nonprofit so that we can start under them, which I owe a lot to them for allowing us that jump off. So the first trip that we ever did ended up being in the Missouri river breaks. And at this point, I had no idea what we were doing other than let's go out and. And suffer well and do hard. And there was no. There was no.

[C]

And the brakes, you. It's. That's all it is. It's just the brakes is terrible.

[A]

It's so.

[C]

No, it's gorgeous. It's amazing. But you're. You can definitely suffer without having to.

[A]

Break yourself off in there, for sure. We call that a kind of a buffet. It's a choose your own adventure.

[C]

It is.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Certainly in canoes, by the way. So you weren't hiking around this?

[B]

We weren't hiking. This is the first trip. We got one person to come on this trip with us outside of, you know, this initial group of team leaders that we refer to ourselves as all enthusiastic about. Yeah, let's go do this. We got the pig egg. We're going to go float down the Missouri river breaks. We got canoes, and those were donated to us. We had a lot of momentum and people around. I've had so many people bless mvp. I was very, very fortunate. And so here we are, canoes, and it's like day One, get in. Take off. After about minutes, it's like, cool. Fuck do we do now? All right, here we go. Keep going. We pull off, and you're talking about a community that. Now we're on the river. We've got this pig egg. I haven't really thought much further than this part. Now we're at a campsite, and it's like, okay, what do we do now? And we don't have any type of alcohol. We don't have any. Because most of us think of being on the river or doing things in the. Like. Yeah, sip a little whiskey, like, take the edge off. So now. Now we're just, like, kind of all staring at each other. There's no real guidance on what we could be talking about or anything, you know, and didn't have any type of overhead cover. So now we're just sitting baking in the July. I believe it was July. July heat.

[A]

And where the sun goes down at.

[B]

About 11pm so just, you know, like, mosquitoes and that kind of shit. Just like, no shit. Just kind of suffering. Well, and I. Yeah. So that was triple one.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Was it a single day? You just did one over?

[B]

No, no, it was like three days. No, it was four days. They've always been four days long.

[C]

Four days. Three days.

[B]

Yeah, they've always been four days long.

[A]

What did we learn from this first experience?

[B]

Well, we had. I didn't have this rule yet was, you know, don't ask, don't tell when it comes to marijuana, you know, and so this would have been 2016ish. And so we're floating down the river. The participant, the one who showed up, just breaks out a J and just starts reefing on that down the river. It's like, all right, dude, hey, can't be doing that. Right? Like, if you're gonna do that. Fair enough. Just do that in the bushes over here. Because this nonprofit that I fall under, you know, they provide recreational trips for kids with disabilities. So that's not a good look. Let's not do that. But I learned that I had a long ways to go, that there was a lot more. There was time fillers and, you know, sometimes you have an initial idea and you see the end goal, you see what it could be. But the distance, you know, from here to there, none of that shit has been filled in. And sometimes the maturity that you have yourself. Yourself, you haven't even gotten there yet. And so you got to kind of let the journey get you to the maturity of where you need to be. So that you can even speak educatedly about whatever topic you don't know exists at the beginning, but you know that it's out there somewhere in the future and you're going to be able to talk about it. But all I remember is, you know, a bunch of team leaders that are willing to go, they were down to do it it and knowing that there was another way to combat because ultimately the idea was to do something about veteran suicide. Right. Is to have a positive impact and do something instead of just sitting on our hands. And so I learned a lot of what not to do. I learned that the Missouri river breaks has its own form of suck fest and it was going to be a long, long road to go.

[A]

So how was your journey many years down the road? How was your four day adventure?

[C]

Talk me through that.

[A]

Yeah, let's, so the origin story. Let's, let's dive into the evolution.

[C]

Yeah. By the time, by the time I get invited and I had done a few veteran things previous like some hunt trips or fishing or whatever and I, after my first one, I realized that not a lot of veterans are, are talking about the hard things to talk about. They're not talking about the troubles that they're having as being a dad, a husband, a co worker or this, you know, when they get stuck in the mall because things are just too hard for them or whatever may be happening and they don't talk about it.

[A]

And why do you think that is?

[C]

I think it's different for everyone. But I think once you get around a group of veterans, nobody wants to be the weakest. Right. There ends up being a lot of, I'll just say dick measuring and you just try not to give up too much information to be the guy that gets picked on, you know, and so there's a chance that if you open up and say, yeah, I had a really hard time at the movie theater, you know, or whatever it may be, then, then now you're the target. Because I felt in the army that's, that was my upbringing, army, infantry, there's.

[A]

A chance that that will happen. But I've never seen it where somebody opens up and that actually does happen.

[C]

No, but I think it's an irrational fear. Exactly. And that's what I think happens. And so I started going on these trips because you'll, you'll run into many veterans. And this is another thing we can talk about if you wanted to, but if you're, if you have all of your limbs, you don't want to take a seat of someone that doesn't on a. On a veteran trip.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that doesn't mean you don't have any wounds. That doesn't mean you don't have anything to heal from. But you see these guys that you, you say went through more than you in a harder time. And I'm not trying to minimize what any of them went through. You want to save a seat for them and let them go on these trips and them take care of that. So anyway, I decide that I'm going to go on this trip with this group of veterans just to be that guy that'll start talking about hard things and I'll help some people. My goal is just to help one guy on the trip and maybe we stay in contact and I can help him through whatever it may be. And we stopped. So we were on the Smith river. And there's a partnership now that we've developed with the Smith river and Fish Wildlife and Park Parks and the Forest Service. But at the time it was kind of still there, you know, like it was definitely in the process, but now we've solidified it. But it ended up being like a work trip. And I didn't know that at the time. You dug holes and that's where you pooped and FWP managed those, but we as MVP helped. And so you flush the toilet, you bring a five gallon bucket and you go and dump water in there to help the poos dissolve and do their thing, you know, biodegrade. And if it's too full, you'd bury that hole and dig another one. Well, what we started running into, the problem was you dig a hole and that's the last year's spot where the. And so you started running out of spots on the Smith river that you could dig holes. And so now you can't do that.

[A]

Rock there something.

[C]

Yeah, but you got to, you got.

[A]

To pack in, pack out.

[C]

There's lots of rocks out there. There's lots of rocks out there painted a color.

[B]

But now it's like Punji pits that you literally have to watch out for when you're walking along. Like soft dirt that you can step in. And this is after, I don't, I guess, I don't know, the 30 plus years of the Forest Service, you know, having to put these, move these latrines, you know, and so there's a bunch of different spots. So I was able to convince a bunch of veterans to, you know, go into the back country and dig up a bunch of human shit.

[C]

Yeah. But I. So I'm skipping forward in the story A little bit. But their website wasn't great. Their social media I couldn't find anything on, so I didn't even know it was a work trip. I thought I was going down to Smith to do some fishing and hang out with some veterans, but it was a work trip and I got to dig holes. And, you know, some of it has to do with feces. But the first stop we made was. Was actually just to have lunch. And Luke immediately, you know, gathers a group around as we're eating these, you know, wraps with. With lunch meat and cheese and. And he's like, all right, day one sucks. It's. It's hard to leave your family and go into the unknown and to do some of these things. But here's. Here's some of the rules of mvp, and we're going to talk about some hard things. And it was in that moment I said, this is the future for me, because I want to. I want an organization that's addressing what's going on. And that was the rest of the trip. And we definitely had rain that, you know, Montana, especially on the Smith river river, it could snow in July, it can hail, it can be 90 degrees. Like, you just never. You never know what's going to happen. And so we had rain, we had some suffering. But we have a. The next morning I wake up and he's like, all right, we're gonna do a morning routine and we do mountain yoga. Combat yoga. You have to give it a different name than just yoga.

[A]

What is combat yoga?

[C]

It's the same as yoga, but you just put combat before it.

[A]

It's not like the opening scene of. What's the Bruce Willis movie? Knock Me plaza, Die Hard 2, where the guy's doing the n. Oh, yeah.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nope, nope. Fully clothed. Fully clothed. But yeah, we do yoga, we do breathing, we do a little bit of meditation, and it's a progressive thing. So by the day three, you're doing a full session of yoga, a full session of breathing, and a full session of meditation. And then you cap it off with some cold water immersion. And a lot of these things I hadn't even been. Been exposed to yet. And so I'm kind of learning this process. And then you start to hear some testimony of these guys of, like, how much this is helping them and how much they can use it in their life. And so I immediately went on the next trip, which was just a month, month later down the Smith and Luke and I rode on a boat together. And I said, dude, I gotta help your Website, it sucks. And I didn't know that they had just done an update. I was like, I'm gonna help you with your website. I. I brought my camera on this trip. I'm taking a bunch of pictures. We're gonna get them up there. So people. Because if. Nowadays, if you don't have video and photo, it didn't happen. It didn't happen. And so I've just been spending the last, you know, this will be year four for me, just trying to document what's going on and get the word out and. And share a little bit more, which is why I reached out to you and just say, hey, I'd. I'd like to do that and. And continue to grow. And I have a. I've known Josh for five years, and, you know, so connections and working all that together. Networking is kind of. Kind of my gifting. And so anyway, that's what stuck me with MVP is like, these guys are doing everything right except for telling people about what they're doing. Cause they were all just a bunch of humble guys that if they took pictures, they were bragging, you know, And I want to be like, we're not bragging. We're just telling people that this is good for them. You know, we're trying to. We're trying to get the people that are stuck down there.

[A]

You could have the most impactful product, but in a digital age, if it doesn't show up with that footprint, it's just. You just get mowed with the rest of the grass.

[C]

And so, you know, definitely the goal was veteran suicide, but it's not like we have a bunch of. A bunch of suicidal veterans that are on our trips. Right.

[A]

Do you think we can even impact veteran suicide? This is one I toil with.

[C]

So without starting all over, I think the goal is actually the red flags that come before veteran suicide. So isolation, not being active. You know, we paint a picture of a guy in a basement. And, you know, you can also take.

[A]

The term veteran out of that, though, too, you know, and that's.

[C]

You exactly can. You exactly can.

[A]

I don't get me wrong, I don't think it's an issue that we should ignore at all. I think we should take a reductionist approach to. It's not an absolutionist approach. Getting it to zero, as far as I can figure, is impossible unless we can solve it for humanity. Because these are just people who chose an occupational path that was not parallel with most people's. I don't understand why they have a higher statistical rate of suicide. Suicide. But I. In the conversations I have had with guys I used to work with, I never once sat down with my buddies and said, oh, you know, tell me about your upbringing. Was it gnarly? But how did you come from a broken home? Or do you have a nuclear family? Are you bringing a lot of trauma with you? None of that stuff. But now afterwards I've had a lot more of those conversations. I've been shocked. So they brought a whole. They brought a full sea bag with them, to use a navy term, which is just a of lot large bag for you guys. Actually you should know this because the department of the Navy, it's the men's department.

[C]

However, thank you for acknowledgement.

[A]

However, we sign your checks. I don't know what that means.

[C]

We have an issue check.

[B]

We get rides from you guys.

[A]

We have an issue check since the late 90s. To my knowledge, it's just all digital at this point. So that's like. And we can't even say that anymore now. Marines are fantastic. I love them. But you bring the sea bag with you, you can put a lot more in it when you're in, then you get out. And if you find your self in a place where you make that choice, if you served in the military, and I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but your suicide is going to be associated with that service. And maybe it totally is, or maybe it's a. It's a microscopic impact. And what really got you to that place was unresolved things that you never dealt with before layered on top of the other pressure that comes with that job. I don't know the answer to it. I want the number to be lower. From what I've heard and what I've been able to look up, the 22 is the actually low. It was an incomplete study that was done when they did it in the first place.

[B]

It's 17 now. But is it though, as per the last. I think it was a 2024 annual prevention suicide prevention report. It was 17 per day. So the initial number was 22. But there is a caveat that if you were to add in right. Statistics related high risk activity. Right. As well as alcohol xyz that they think that it could get quite a bit higher. It's just hard to tease out those variables. I agree with you about most of that. When it comes to, I mean just how much we lean on alcohol alone. And if we have some sea baggage coming in and then we do our service, we got some sea baggage going out the Only way that I know how to again. And most of this comes down to a feeling of anxiety and guilt and feeling low. Right. If the only way that I know to make myself feel better is to drink a bunch of alcohol, copious amounts of poison over extended periods of time are going to change your personality. So that's not useful at all. You'd have to get rid of that certainly is something to take off the table. And then with a veteran group, when you don't have much of a. When you go from hunting humans for your country.

[A]

I mean, I don't call it that. I call it hide and seek, but sure, fair enough.

[B]

When you play hide and seek with.

[A]

Night vision at night.

[B]

And pop guns.

[A]

And they didn't have those, that's a.

[B]

Whole nother conversation that you could go down. But when you get. I mean, you do that for so many years in your life and there's so much honor that comes with that and prestige and camaraderie, and then you step out and I no longer have that as a part of my identity. No more. Nor do I have any type of job that would ever remotely come close to that. There's a grieving process that has to happen with that. Just giving up your job. Like, you have to grieve and cry and like feel like shit and like give yourself time to heal from that. And then on top of that, one of the. In my research, one of the saddest things I think is that a lot of humans will get it in their brain that the best thing that they could do for their family is to take their life.

[C]

Right?

[A]

The sinisters, quite a few people, which is an irrational. They make an irrational thought, rational, which is not a headspace that I can replicate. But I understand that they get there. Let me ask you this. Should there be honor and prestige in hunting other human beings?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Personally, to me, with the intent of protecting.

[A]

And I only ask that because there's a weight that comes with it. And if you have prestige for those people and you honor those people. People. But then they can never be that person again. Are we setting them up for failure?

[B]

Well, warriors have, it seems, in my. Again, my experience, warriors through all cultures have always had honor and prestige. They've always been lifted up. And again, because of the nature of going and taking on your finest. Our finest. We're going to fight so that this group of people gets to continue with its way of life. Right? The bad guys. Guys are the men who are capable of doing nasty things so that the rest of us can sleep nice in our bed. Yes, I think it should be honored. I don't know that we do a good job of helping that on ramp into the military. Right. We're good at that and we're good at training the on ramp out is where we're struggling. Native American cultures have, there's always been trends, transition. There's been evidence of that transition back into it and generally it revolves around shamans. It's interesting too that now we're by shamans.

[A]

I think they were flipping over cow patties and eating some of the mushrooms.

[B]

Just going into the psilocybin. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[A]

Which I'm not judging but for some reason that's left out of the lore like yeah, we sat there and tripped balls watching the northern lights.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. And is what peyote. Right. Using psychotropics. Right. That are going to help you whatever. If you've ever done that and experienced a higher plane, apparently it does quite a bit for a human psyche as you're transitioning out or dealing with trauma or addiction or just bad shit that has happened to you. So whatever it may be, to answer your question, I think that the on ramp, the off ramp camp process needs to be done differently.

[A]

I've had this conversation with some people too. I think what we need to do because you describe what the military is good at really well, they can take somebody from me centric world and put them into a Wii centric environment. Regardless of the branch you go into, they're very good at doing military stuff. And I think we might be better served if we remove the off ramp from the military. I actually think this is the perfect spot for ng.

[B]

What do you mean?

[C]

Well, it's not a government institution meaning.

[A]

When you get out you get handed over to a non government organization that specializes in your transition. Because the TAPS program that I went to, which let me say this, I had all the signatures on my paper when I left.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

I may or may not have attended all of the classes. And so the question is one, first off, if I didn't, that's completely my choice and my fault. So this is not a, a, a, a wrap on taps, but there's no way that a week long program is after nearly 17 years is going to prepare you for the civilian world. There are Again, if there's 40,000 service based organizations, let's let the military focus on onboarding and lethality and figure out this transitional space where it's not like the, the military can just wipe their hands. Right. They Maybe you're even still active for the two months, whatever it is. But we hand you over to people, people that can facilitate whatever it may be. And I know this is pie in the sky. There's a detail or two missing in my grand plan.

[B]

Pie in the sky is good, but I think.

[A]

I think the military would actually function better if you did that.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Focus on your core competency. Let's find or build people who it is their core competency, and that's all they do.

[B]

I would add to that, too, that. I think that. I think that's all a great idea. I think that that's. Hopefully we get there someday. But I think that it's also important, too, that it's instilled into the veteran at that point, military member, maybe last 60 days, whatever it may be, that there's always a chance too, that the country might need you again. You know what I mean? Like, there's like, don't go home and just get fat. Don't go home.

[A]

So not to interrupt you, but how about this? How about when you get out, your thoughts on service are reoriented towards the fact you have the rest of your life to continue to give back and take all of these positive things. I mean, let's say baseline level. I wasn't in the Marines, so we'll talk about a slightly harder boot camp, which is naval boot camp.

[C]

So I thought you were gonna say Army. I was like, all right, yeah, now we're.

[A]

So no, Navy boot camp is eight months long because it's so cutting edge. Actually, it was eight weeks long. I still, if I'm being honest, still fold my T shirts in that way. I mean, I can put a knife cutting edge on a T shirt. Poke your eye out. I mean, I'm just. We don't have to celebrate.

[B]

Just in case you need to throw.

[A]

Poke your eye out. So just in case people need to know what kind of weapons I have, they're folded in my laundry. But even Marine Corp boot camp, you will have an understanding of discipline, communication, working in an environment that is larger than just you as an individual. Hopefully some reinforcement on integrity, morality, teamwork, all of these things. Leadership, at least an understanding and exposure to leadership. I'm sorry, how could that not be completely benef. And this is just a dude who went to boot camp and he just went to boot camp and then went back into the civilian world. You literally could have a positive impact on the people around you of your age group range because they don't have that experience. So that's what is Marine Corps boot camp anyways?

[B]

It's 12 and a half weeks.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Even if somebody was like, hey, you're just going to go to boot camp, you could still go back to where you came from and your cohort, your peers at that time and level them up like that. So you layer a career on top of that. How about this? Now is your opportunity for the rest of your life to figure out how you can make every aspect of your community. Community better and in doing so, strengthen our country. Agree. Making it even more worthwhile for the people who are willing to sign on the bottom line.

[B]

I couldn't agree more. And I think.

[A]

What are you laughing at?

[C]

No, it's our, it's our program. Like we, we want to tell you.

[A]

Guys go down in a river. I'm talking about like, but like we, I'm making.

[B]

Lives here.

[C]

The mentality of it that a warrior in a war zone to a warrior in a peace. Peace zone. We want to have your military experience not be a negative and you're a victim. And this is something I need to overcome. But this is something that should build you into a better father, husband and co worker friend. And that experience isn't something you should be guilty of because scientifically you're not even the same person when you break it down into the atoms and everything else. After seven years, you're a completely different human right. And so let's not live in the guilt. Let's live through the training of being a warrior. And how do you apply that when you're a dad and when you're a husband husband and when you're a co worker to be the best in your community and not, not to the point of where you're like accolades and you're holding this above them, but you're an equal. That's just helping rise everything up. You're trying to bring everything up, not just you, but everything with you.

[A]

The country does need veterans.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I don't know if they need stocking yeti shelves with like a freaking knife because that, I don't know.

[B]

Those shelves get stocked all the time. Squared away.

[A]

As you were describing this person, I'm like, I could tell you what he drives. Stickers that may or may not be on the glass in the back and the bumper sticker. I could probably tell you his Monday through Friday attire, all for it. What length of fixed blade knife he carries at all times, where he carries it, selective firearm, all of those things, however that can have the broad sort of prediction approach can do broadsword things. Sometimes you need a scalpel and people's exposure to that person. Which I think some of those people are like that have mid to weapons grade tism a little bit that they probably had before.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And they brought it with them. Which the military actually deeply rewards. So if you think about.

[B]

You can.

[A]

Sell it's like the movie the Accountant, but there's thousands of them.

[C]

Yeah, true.

[A]

So very beneficial there. But though not everybody likes being around around that. And if you. If you can't learn to round the edges and I don't want people to not be who they are. But if you're not aware that that can actually kind of turn some people off and then you start then that's the pebble that you drop in there. And the ripples that go out from that are a little bit more negative in nature. But I think. I think veterans service starts when they get out. And I didn't recognize that or realize that for a very long time. I truly at this point in my life I just. I want to be a value add. I would like to leave 0.00000 however many zeros you can add 1% better than it was.

[C]

Yeah. And to my understanding, the little bit I've heard you kind of explain into the book that's coming out in April, that's relatively what it's about, right? Is my understanding correct?

[A]

I wrote it so long ago I forget to be honest. I'm doing the audiobook for the next three days here in the studio. So I'll let you know if it's any good. I mean but at the end of the day, yes. If I had a copy, I have some galley copies. If I had one here, I'd send you guys home with one. You guys could give me some feedback. It's not war stories. There's not a single war story in the book. It's mistakes and things that I learned from it. And my goal with it is I really think people view specifically the special operations world is unattainable for almost everyone, which I guess mathematically it is. But also almost nobody is dumb enough to try to go down that pathway anyway. So if the experiences only impact that one person's life life because they spent the time in there, I just feel like that's a huge waste. If you could take those experiences and figure out a way to communicate them to others and they become tools that people can use to change their life. Now we're talking. So that was more or less the.

[C]

Goal of it to take your military experience and make those around you better.

[A]

Yeah. Just to take the mistakes and hopefully. I mean, I do believe people need to make mistakes. I mean, I'm sure you guys see this with your kids, too, although they think they are the most creative, intelligent humans ever. I sit there and I watch. I'm like, oh, yeah, the first wheels of that car came off a little while ago. But I'm going to go ahead. You know, this is going to be a fender bender, not a fatal accident in your personal life. So I'm going to let this one play itself out in real. Because they have to.

[B]

But you want them to.

[A]

Yeah. And in a macro level, though, there are some pretty easy lessons to learn from my idiotic mistakes, and I think it'll help people. But if I went to the grave and didn't try to do something with those. Yeah, cool. For me. But what's the point, you know? I don't know. That's what I was thinking.

[C]

And so, yeah, that's why I was laughing is that I feel that. That, you know, when I kind of wanted a purpose to serve some more, you know, like, I want to serve my community. I want to serve my family.

[A]

Every day, people forget about it every day. And every interaction you have, it's actually there.

[C]

And. And I think it's. I used to say it's. There's. And I still say it. I guess there's purpose in the journey. So everybody. Every barista you run into, everybody you open the door for at the gas station or, you know, whatever, there's an opportunity to make that person and your interaction with them the best part of their day. And why wouldn't we look at life by doing? And so, like, that's. That's kind of what MVP does, is we're just trying to. To. And veterans aren't victims. Like, let's. Let's do some hard things together and let's accomplish these four days of whatever may come up with weather or digging latrines or whatever.

[A]

Do you guys even check the weather at this point? I feel like you didn't the first time.

[B]

No.

[A]

And at this point, there's a lot.

[B]

Of shit that I didn't check the.

[A]

Weather on your initial official rep. You just. It's more enthusiasm.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

How. How bad could it be?

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's sunny out right now. Montana weather doesn't change ever, ever, ever. Holy cow. I've lived here nine years at this point. You. I have. I have a variety of clothing in my truck. That's right.

[B]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know that we anymore check the weather. I mean, obviously we check the weather a hundred percent most times. It's not going to stop us from going out, though. The idea of just so the on ramp or the off ramp part of helping veterans integrate back into society so they can be productive and do exactly what we're talking about. Sometimes it requires a bit of suffering to wake folks up. You know, you had made mention earlier about, you don't know folks, I can't remember exactly how you had said this, but finding out who a person really is, one of the best ways to do that is through suffering and stress and. And terrible. A terrible situation. Right.

[A]

There's that. Or I'm firmly of the belief now you meet the real person when you tell them no. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. They don't want to hear it. Yeah.

[A]

Just now think about it. It's real easy to be affable and friendly and people want to be around when they're getting what they want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you tell somebody no for the first time, you will get a look into who they actually are. That's who the real person person is. In addition, what you're talking about is true, but it's revealing. And I try to remember that when I get no's as well, because that's one of those moments where you'll sit with yourself and think, why did I just say that? You know, maybe I'm not a master of myself to the degree that I think I am. But I tell you what, you want to watch best friends go to mortal enemies, And I'm not saying for anybody listening to this, for the love of God, please don't go out there and just start saying no to people. That's not what I'm saying.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

But that's not what I. What I'm saying. If the time comes up where you have to hold your ground, watch how the other person reacts.

[B]

Yeah. And like suffering kind of is the universe's no. Right. Like everything's going good and then something hits you in the face and now, oh, shit, I got to take this on.

[A]

This is the universal manifestation of it.

[B]

Yeah, it's exactly that. And when people get to see how they react and then now we get to mirror them. Right. When they're on a trip with us and we're out there suffering just right alongside with you. But we're gonna do it with a smile on our face because we know that this is just temporary. We're Gonna move through this. We're gonna get through this as a team. So now you wanting to get all pouty and be a little bitch out there, right. And fall back into that little victim mentality that you have. Go for it. See how far that gets you with the rest of the group who is standing here still enjoying themselves. And now you have to do some, some personal insight or reflection into who you are. You know what I mean? It causes that.

[A]

The victim term is an interesting one. And your guys experience. Did service in the military while you were in. Did it, did it reward in any way a victim mentality? Because in my experience it did not.

[C]

Not in service, but post service.

[A]

That's what I'm saying though. Where does the switch happen? So I think the community that we came from, the same people that we're talking about, talking about it was in no way, shape or form.

[C]

We made songs about people.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. It wasn't taught and it wasn't reinforced.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Where does the change happen?

[C]

Same cadence about it.

[B]

I think some of it comes from the Vietnam veteran. Right. Like, and so I always, I always have to say this is. I have so much respect and admiration for the Vietnam veteran for all that they did before us. They went into a meat grinder. That, that was a complete bullshit war in my opinion. We have one pig egg. If we were to replicate this with the Vietnam war, we'd have 8.9 pig eggs. Just to give you context. Then they got to come home and be called war or baby killers. Xyz. They knew that something existed out there that was shell shock, later become known as ptsd. They fought for it so that future generations would get that. Always grateful to them for everything that they've done. So much so that when and maybe you experienced this. When I came home, especially after Fallujah, we got home, it was. We were like super bowl champs. Like we had fire trucks, we had police cars, we had people cheering. We got off the bird and it was just insane. Even to this day, there's a bit of celebrity that comes with being a service member, having served your country. If you talk to Vietnam era veterans.

[A]

Not the case. My dad was one as well. I know exactly what you're talking about.

[B]

Yeah. My father, my father in law Jim was telling me that when he would get home and be in a bar, you didn't dare tell anyone that you were in the service for fear of repercussion, violent repercussions in all of that. I believe that because a lot of those guys would tell us, I remember getting out that they would tell me specifically claim everything, you know, everything's wrong with you. Make sure you do X, Y and Z so that the VA will reward or give you the appropriate. Compensate is the appropriate word. So from that I believe that some of that victim kind of mentality was born from Vietnam veterans actually trying to help. Right.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And then it somewhat gets morphed into let's all feel sorry for us. And then we had already discussed the again, if there's a financial gain here and if we were living in a time where you got to have a couple different jobs, which we are, and you got to have a side gig and grind and work your ass off to make a little bit of money. It's not how it was in the 80s and 90s. It's a little different now. Right. If I can count on a little bit of extra money coming from X, Y and Z, then I'm going to play the game. Yeah, Right. But I think some of the problem is with that is too also is that once you buy into this victim notion and you really let it sink in and you really do start to play that and you really do start feeling sorry for yourself and sitting your ass on the couch and living a sedentary lifestyle becomes your identity. Becomes your identity and then it kills you when it. So we're talking about the off ramp.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One of the things we were talking about attaching honor to that as you're doing the off ramp. Like your country could need you again. Right. I don't know.

[A]

Does need you. Let's just take could out. Okay.

[B]

And when I say does, I mean like maybe we pull you back because we need a war again. Maybe that's not the appropriate reason way to do it. But that's just kind of my thought pattern. But with that don't get fat like just to put it simply, like fitness is probably the number one super judgy.

[A]

Some people have larger bones. I mean, Michael, are we crossing into the line here of discrimination?

[B]

Fatphobia for sure.

[A]

I don't want to be demonetized.

[B]

Fair enough. Pretentious prick body shaming.

[A]

Yeah, you're shaming people. You are calling them a nasty three letter word.

[B]

I meant P, H A T. Pretty hot and tempting. Does that count for anything?

[A]

Do you think that anybody enjoys being overweight? I can't see a positive aspect in your life. How does it. And don't get me wrong, I mean my weight will float around from time to time too, but especially again and I look back the military, first off, people think that all seals are calendar worthy. There were some men who had to have others look at the size of their penis for them because from a vertical plane they had Mount Tummy in the middle, right. So Mount Tumulus was probably stopping them. So. And it was generally associated with later in their career. And maybe they might have been broken, whatever it may be. But the point is, is vastly and mostly the military doesn't reward letting yourself go. As a matter of fact, you're supposed to be taking tests and all sorts of things. But anybody who's ever been in for six seconds knows there's a variety of ways around those. So why then let yourself go down that slope afterwards, especially for young men? Because I think physical activity and mental, mental health are intrinsically tied in some way. But they let and you got. You feel that. I mean I at least feel it and I bet you guys do too. Like God, a day I go and get a just beating the crap out of Michael in jiu jitsu, just really making sure he suffers as I enjoy it, which is usually days that end and why I feel so much better with my ability to think I rest better that night. It's not that people don't know this. Why let yourself go? And I understand the stresses of life and all of those things, but I also understand it doesn't happen overnight. And you get yourself into this place where I think it might take 1 or 2x the amount of time it took you to get there to get it off.

[B]

And that's the point of don't let yourself get there in the first place. Because getting back is. I don't want to have to deal with that because it would be probably the hardest thing I would have ever had to. It's really goddamn hard to lose weight once you put it on. So that's the point of just especially age. Especially as you age and for your mental health, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. Other than life, getting busy and hard kids. It's easy.

[C]

Anytime I explain to somebody how to, how to go fishing or how to go hunting is what you're pursuing is going. It's. It's nature, right? And so you're a deer, an elk, rainbow trout, a bass, they're going to be in the spot rots with the least caloric output for the highest caloric gain, right? And so unless they're in the rut. Unless they're in the rut, then we're gonna absolutely deep into a calorie deficit. Absolutely, absolutely. And that's, that's true. Unless, unless they're, unless they're breeding. But, but a trout's gonna sit on the seam, you know, in the slower water, letting the stuff come to them rather than go to it. And again, that's not 100 true, but 90% of the time it is. And we're the same way. We want the highest caloric gain for the least caloric output. And that's the easy way to do it. I went through a period when I was in ministry where, you know, you're doing church potlucks and taking you students out to McDonald's, you know, every day of the week and it just becomes the easy button. And so in 2020, I decided I was getting a little too large. I lost 90 pounds that year. Like I had to do a lot of work.

[A]

Did you just use the TR term, £90 and a little too large? I'm just checking to make sure.

[C]

I was almost £300 and I went down to £90.

[A]

I don't know in any world of weight loss. So beacons. I just lost just a few.

[C]

No, I realized, I realized how big it was. I lost.

[A]

That's.

[C]

I lost an eight year old. Eight year old human.

[A]

That's incredible. Congratulations.

[C]

But it, it happened because I tried to take go hunting with my son our first year archery hunting. I went into the Montana mountains and got up to the top of the mountain where we now want to hunt and I, I'm dead. I told my son, I said, ethically, I can't get an animal off this mountain because I am not fit enough. And we had to leave. We were on bulls too. We had seen bulls that night before. And the next morning I was like, you can do a little walk around, but don't shoot anything, please, because I can't help you get it off the mountain. And I had to walk down. That's right. So that year changed my life. And it's absolutely important that you do the hard things. Doing hard things makes easy things easier. And it makes hard things easier. Like doing hard things just makes life easier, even though it's hard to do it. And so a lot of us end up taking this easy route that video games are satisfying, right? They can get your endorphins up, they can get your heart rate up a little bit. They're exciting. Doritos taste really good with the 17 ingredients that come from who knows where to get in your mouth. But it's in an easy delivery system system. Baking chicken is a lot Harder than opening a bag of Doritos. And so I think what ends up happening is you just end up going for the least caloric output for the highest caloric gain. And. And you end up in this bad spot.

[A]

I see. I see the look on people's faces. And I wish more than anything there's something that you could do and you can't. They got to do it for themselves.

[C]

They do, they do. There's. You can't change anyone that. What. What elicits. Elicits change in someone is they get to a point where. Where you want to quit smoking. Well, you're either diagnosed with cancer or you finally make that choice yourself. And those are the only two things. And sometimes even the cancer doesn't do it. It's death. And that's when you quit smoking or you want to get healthy again. You're diagnosed with diabetes or whatever, some debilitating disease, and that forces you to do it. Or you just decide internally which is the hardest thing to do. I'm going to make a change.

[A]

It's impressive. Impressive, man. £90 is no joke.

[C]

It was. It was a fun year. It was actually. I think 2020 is one of the first years that you did it. During COVID During COVID you know. And so I bought these pair of shoes that connected to your phone. I can't remember what brand it was. It might have been Nike or Reebok or something. They had like this device and it would talk to you in your earbuds while you're running and tell you like, your. Your gate's too long, it's too short, it's too whatever.

[A]

I would turn that off immediately.

[C]

It took a half a mile. And I said, yes, I know I'm the worst runner, but you're never talking to me again. Shoes, like, why did I buy these shoes?

[A]

British accent so they sound smarter than you.

[C]

You couldn't choose the. It was just like some. It actually felt to me like this hot chick was like floating next to me just yelling at how horrible of a runner I am at almost £300.

[A]

Just listen to Metallica. Look at a poll right of yourself.

[C]

Just like.

[B]

In your sandman.

[A]

How many people are you guys getting now requesting to be a part of mvp? And how often do you guys do the program? Is it wintertime too, or do you guys focus? Mostly summer.

[B]

So it's spring, summer and fall is how our trips go. We've got four trips that we're going to do next year, which are just our standard veteran led therapeutic adventure trips. That's what we refer to them as calm VTATs. We do two floats on the Smith and then we'll do two hikes. The hikes depending on where, you know, we've been in the bar, Marshall, the Beartooth kind of depends on what's happening with weather, fire for the year.

[A]

And you guys take the pig egg on all of those, correct?

[B]

Yes. Yep.

[A]

How does that work? Do you guys cycle it through the participants there are you all responsible for?

[B]

So we started initially that. Yeah, everybody had to carry it at one point. And so it was, you know, 70 plus pounds all put together. And so you, Scott, would not have a pack. He would just break all his components up into the rest of our packs. So then one person would carry. We'd have a kifaru, like meat hauler with this on it. Kifaru. I've always.

[C]

Every time he says it, I'm like, oh, that's kiffer.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I've always called it.

[A]

You have some.

[B]

And I carry. What's that?

[A]

You have some aluminium cans in there with water. Oh, my goodness. Isn't that a Montana brand? You should know that one. No, they're in Wyoming now. Mystery Ranch is based in Bozeman.

[C]

Yep. Mystery Ranch is. Yeah.

[B]

So then we would carry. So then one person would take that and carry it at a time, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we got a little smarter with how we did that. And so now day one, we break it all up and depending on how many people are on the trip is how much the weight will be that each person is responsible for for a portion of the pig egg to carry out throughout the trip.

[A]

Is it actual dog tags?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, there's. Are they.

[A]

Do they have names on them?

[B]

Individually named branch of service, date of death, operation that they died on? Ironically, we've had to count. We had to scrub the roster twice. So the first time that we did this, got all the team leaders together. Took us about a week long to confirm. Right. So using the defense casy analysis system, you get the names, all the information for anybody you know who's been lost during a battle or during a war. So cross reference, make sure all the pig egg or all the dog tags are there as well as correct. That took us about a week. Well, about a year into the program, our pig egg was actually stolen from the facility Eagle Mount Great Falls, where we were housed. Missing this. Yeah, it was July 4th of 2018 that it was stolen. There's a whole story with that. But so it goes missing, it ends up showing back up. It ends up Being in a vehicle that's in the sheriff's impound, it just pops up mysteriously. So then we have to actually recount. Yeah, right. Because now we got to go back through it. It took us two years to get through it that time, and we did end up being about 100 names short. So then we had to repopulate, and it is current up to Abby Gate. So all names up until that point are in the pig egg. But yes, it's. Every dog tag has an individual's name on it.

[A]

Have you guys considered adding the suicides?

[B]

So suicides from theater are in it. Since we've gotten back, we haven't put suicides in. I don't.

[C]

If we included suicides, we'd have a lot of pig aids. I think it's six.

[B]

Yeah. Just ironically, you say that. I was just looking at. So 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines who I served with on our first deployment, my first deployment during Fallujah, we lost 33 Marines on that deployment. We. As of 2019, 35 Marines from 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines had killed themselves. So I don't know. I don't know that that's. I don't know that the pig egg is the spot for that.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, do you want to. Unless you just want it to be. I mean, you guys are trying to impact that statistic. I mean, do you smack people in the face with it? I mean, would it be. And I think. And I'm just thinking out loud here, I don't have to answer this. It's. Would that be even more impactful? Would that be too much? I read once recently, Michael, can you double check this? I read that the Green Beret community has now lost more people to suicide than they did during the gwat in combat operations.

[C]

And in a lot of cases, most units. That's correct.

[B]

I keep hearing that kind of trend across branches.

[A]

Yeah, I hear Michael pity pattering. Then he'll try to pull it on the screen, then it'll disappear, and then he'll pull it back. He had it fixed.

[B]

It was working at one point.

[A]

Well, there's only one person who uses that desk. So.

[B]

I always find it interesting, too, when it comes to the suicide piece. So you're talking Special Forces. What do we hire? This is the AI.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Claim more lives than combat operation September 11th. I don't. I don't know what that means.

[C]

30. 30,000, 177. And so you can see that there's.

[A]

No end Veterans Post 9, 11 conflicts died by suicide compared to the 7,757.

[C]

It's a rough stat. And I mean, even if you just compare civilian too, I mean, it's. It's happening more with veterans than it is with civilization. Millions. Almost double in Montana or over double. Is it over double, Luke? I can't remember the exact numbers for the amount of civilian. So civilian suicide in Montana to veteran suicide, Is it over double?

[B]

So Montana, going back to the study that we were talking about earlier. 17 u. S. Adults per 100,000 U.S. adults kill themselves in the veteran community. It's 34 veterans that kill themselves per every hundred thousand.

[A]

Is this here in Montana?

[B]

No, that's nationally. Those are national. And then per a 2021 report specific to Montana in the veteran population, it's 51. So three times the national average of veterans that kill themselves per 100,000.

[A]

I feel like that's got something to do with the race remoteness and people's ability to isolate a little bit better in a place like this.

[C]

If they want vitamin d, you know.

[A]

Like vitamin d, but also, I mean, like good luck. I mean, I guess you could lock yourself in your house. I'm just thinking about where I used to live in San Diego. I guess that you could do that, but you will have. You're going to feel far less isolated. It would be impossible to really feel geographically isolated. That's not the case out here. You could go. You can go boonies if you want. Wanted to.

[B]

Well, Montana's already on the suicide belt too. And so there's a group of states kind of run the north to south. And we're generally. They have the highest rates of suicide. So we're already in that.

[A]

What do they attribute that to?

[B]

I think, I'm not sure. Seasonal depression disorder or sad. What is the. What is acronym for that? It was light, I think do with that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's your suicide belt.

[C]

Is that West Virginia right there? That's just kind of out in the boonies.

[A]

I think it might be actually not.

[C]

Good with my states. I didn't Michael school.

[B]

Another thing too is Montana has one of, if not the highest veteran population. 10% of our population is veteran. And so I think those will contribute to that higher suicide rate as well. Yeah, but yeah, isolation's a big part of it, right?

[A]

Yeah. God, I wish I had a turnkey solution to that. It's such a nuanced and complex problem. So the people I was asking you before I hijacked you, the people that your four programs you get to run in 26 what kind of people are signing up for them?

[B]

Yeah, so we get. That's a good question. We get kind of veterans from all different communities, which is always kind of neat, actually. You have Special Forces with Air Force, and so it's always kind of unique to get to see the interactions between everybody and the appreciation for one another. And so, yeah, because of Brian stepping in here a couple years ago and really increasing the impact or the footprint on social media, we're starting to get folks from all over the place. And in fact, last year we had veterans from the Midwest, I think from Florida.

[C]

We had a guy above 9,000ft that a day before was in Florida, had.

[B]

A sniper platoon that's trying to come back. They're from all over the, you know, Boston, New Mexico City, again, Florida. And so we get folks from all over the place that we just tell them, get to Great Falls, Montana, we'll take care of the rest in regards to how much money that we can, you know, afford to put towards the program because we pay for. For, you know, zero cost to the veteran is.

[A]

Other than the travel.

[B]

Other than travel. And sometimes we can help out with that as well. We have a budget, you know, we've got our scholarship program and depending on the needs of the veteran. But yeah, we males, females, any MOs. And this year we're going to be doing our first year where we take spouses as well, which is a underserved cohort of the veteran community.

[A]

And it's going to be a real interesting experiment.

[B]

We can pull it off. I'm excited to do this.

[A]

Oh, I'm not saying I don't want you to do it. Yeah, I bring your camera.

[C]

Oh, yes, I will definitely have my camera. I think it's going to be fun.

[A]

But going to be all couples or you're just going to have a couple. You should do all couples.

[C]

We'll have. We'll have one float and one hike this year that we're opening up to spouses. And what we've agreed to is even a spouse without their partner could come. So we're just going to allow. We're going to allow what's going to happen to happen so that we can prepare for everything as we continue to move into the future. Right. And so we just wanted, you know, even just thinking about how if you lost your husband and you're one of those spouses, how do we prove those kind of things right? And so these are fun things that we're trying to figure out because again, we want. We want the real people to really help them. Not somebody fake. Just trying to get a free trip down the Smith or something. And so just trying to get all of that figured out. But my wife is my hero, and she went through two deployments raising children, paying bills with a power of attorney. She's my hero. And I feel that, you know, there's kind of a symbolism by carrying the pig egg together that we're all carrying this weight. Right. And there's a camaraderie, and you're still part of a community, even if you don't feel like it and you've seen separated, you would fit right back in. Like you said, you weren't in the veteran community as much as people may even think that you are. But as soon as you come on one of the trips, after the first lunch, we're all making first sergeant jokes. We're the same.

[A]

I don't know what that means. We use real ranks. Petty officer.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Petty officer jokes. But, but, but you just. You just end up kind of falling back into some of the same, same, same things that makes it feel real again, you know, because you can almost feel like it wasn't a real part the further away you get from it, and it starts to feel real again. But I feel that my wife carried that weight as well, if not even sometimes more. And in a more difficult way.

[A]

Different, for sure, you know, so what do you leave? How do you send people home? Because they are able to come and experience this for four days, reconnect with something that maybe they. They had lost the connection with or had lost their desire to be connected with, or they just. They had not found their way back to it. How do you send people home?

[C]

Just kick them right out. There's no offering.

[B]

Yeah. There is importance with ritual. There is importance with ritual. Right. And ending something, generally, at the end of our trips, there's a component in which feelings are shared. Right. Not. And it's important that it's not. You know, we don't do like kumbaya around the fire. Like, you tell me about your trauma. Now you go. Now you go. A lot of that stuff just happens kind of organically, where being in the backcountry is, for lack of a better term, just magical. When you're back there for three to four days, you're decompressing. You don't have your cell phone, but now you're actually getting. You actually hear things that you weren't hearing day one, day two, like you were thinking things that you weren't. I always say that it's similar to being on a boat and falling out into the water. When you're in the backcountry, you can't help but be immersed like you would be in the water from the boat that you fall out of. It's just you're back into a frequency of light, energy and sound that does something, you know, to your brain. And so when folks start opening up and sharing stories, making fun of each other and the first sergeant's petty office, of which tons of laughter actually happens, you know, like the amount of endorphins that are released just because folks laugh in a way that I would say that that's actually probably the most prominent and profound thing that I've experienced on all of these trips. And I didn't anticipate it from day one. It was let's do hard shit and suffer and all this shit. But the reality is from that comes laughter. And when your brain has kind of been soaked in that for a couple days and you've got some team leaders who are willing to. Willing to share and be vulnerable, people open up and stories come out or feelings come out or discussions happen. And so being able to make sure that we cap that off number one with something ceremonial that pretty good at in the military, we're good at doing that. But then also get done with the trip, send them on their way, goodbyes happen, follow up is something that we are working on getting better at because it is something very important. Important. But one of the neat things that we see frequently is that the groups, the teams that come together, the trips will have a little chat thread or messenger thread and they all stay in contact with one another and end up having friendships and kind of continuing on and so making sure that we're communicating still. We just literally got off the phone today with a participant who's having some issues. We're going to be. Brian's going to be linking up with him in the next couple weeks to Monday. Yeah, Monday, to check in. And so it's something that we do do. It's something we need to get better at. And.

[A]

You heard it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[C]

And then this year we'll be. We'll be starting a. I'm not a huge fan of social media. It's a. That's a necessary evil.

[A]

You don't have to be a huge fan of it, I was gonna say.

[C]

But it's a necessary evil. And so we're gonna start a Facebook group for all past participants so we can have some self buddy, you know, they can kind of help check in on themselves as we're continuing to work on our CRM. Right. And so we have a database that this year we're initiating to help with some of that follow up so that we make sure that nobody gets lost between the cracks. And what we end up running into I my life, I got lucky and I got a little bit of inheritance. Right. As I found mvp. So I just quit my job and work full time and I've been doing that for three years now, just working 40 hours a week with these guys. And it just. Life works out that way, right? Yeah. And it's awesome. But we run into a problem when you have a bunch of volunteers that have full time jobs and you, you're taking them on four days where they're taking paid leave and you do that a couple times a year and now we want them to follow up. And it's like I'm out of pto, guys. Like I just, I can't help anymore. And so we run into a problem of that that you know, funding, it's just funding, it's just finding the money for it. And I'm not here to ask for money at all, so please don't take that wrong. But trying to find unique.

[A]

Are you actively trying to prevent people from giving you guys money?

[C]

No, I'm just checking. Nope, nope, not at all. We're not doing that.

[B]

But that, but that's do that either.

[A]

I can put a link in the show notes that goes somewhere else.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That would help a lot.

[A]

Donation.

[C]

But. But I'm just saying that like funding does. So finding unique ways to still do what we know needs to be done is what we're good at.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so I feel a Facebook group where people can check in on each other, you can share pictures and hey, I worked out this morning in some of those group chats we had the same guy I'm going to meet in a week. He sent us a picture of him doing cold water immersion a few days after a trip. May or may not have been appropriate picture but you know, he was just showing hey guys, I'm still doing this and encouraging everybody else to do it. We had one group chat chat that the guy said everybody that gets in, I can't remember how many thousand steps. It was like 40,000 this week or something like that. I'm gonna buy you an MKC hat. And then he ended up giving us all MKC hats. He sent us a picture and he's like numbered them all and said pick the one you want and sent them all.

[A]

And so it's amazing how little things like that can have a huge difference.

[C]

Huge difference. Huge difference.

[B]

Sometimes all people need is just a little bit of encouragement. Just a little bit of encouragement. Encouragement.

[A]

And a little bit of encouragement in the realization, at least for a moment, that they're not alone and that they're not dealing with something that nobody else has and that they're not the only person dealing with it. I think those are the most insidious things we can. And I. For clarity, you talk yourself into that. I don't know anybody. Because technically you couldn't have somebody else telling you you're alone because they'd be there with you. You know what I'm saying? Let's run the math on this.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's somewhat kind of paradoxical, all of that.

[A]

You know what I mean? No. I mean, I'm my own worst enemy. And I'm sure most people. People are. And it's one of the things I've learned over time is if I get into that negative self talk cycle, and this is where talking with counselors has helped me is tools to interrupt that and reorient that. Otherwise it's just like, hey, how fast can we go down the toilet bowl? Which isn't awesome. Don't make great decisions down there. Never had a good business idea, you know, Feel like crap. Like, I know what I'll do. I'll just start an entrepreneurial venture when I'm feeling so good about myself.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Hard pass. What do you guys. Looking back now, so both Iraq for both of you guys. Neither of you went to Afghanistan. What are your thoughts on your time in Iraq? Looking back now.

[B]

Like geopolitically, Like, I mean. What do you mean?

[A]

It could be geopolitically, but I just mean it was. I mean, I fell for it hook, line and sinker. When they were talking, talking about it, I was at OIF1. We hit the number one chem bio target the first night of the war, which was an agricultural school, by the way.

[C]

I was there. Were you really in OIF one?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And we, when we got there, you start, there was a. There was a. A family that lived there. And so there was planes that were down that never took off. Right. That might have been you that did that. And then they brought us tea and munitions that had unexplored ordinance that hit their roof. And they brought it to us right there in the school of Agriculture. But. But like, yeah, it was right there.

[A]

No, and I remember. So my dad is a Vietnam vet. I remember legitimately Arguing with him over the validity. Look, we need to do this. And I'm not going to say. Well, I could say. What I'll say is this. I think we had much more altruistic purposes in Afghanistan. I really don't think Iraq had anything to do with it or was thought through. I don't think we thought through the exit of both of those. But, yeah, I feel. I feel like we did. I also think we could have finished Iraq in about 90 days and then finished it with just a small presence there. Honestly. Fobs. A couple fobs. And the ability to remotely strike Iraq, man, I think we're going to go down in the history books, especially the farther it gets away from that and the more we find out is just idiotic.

[C]

And I'd say that my views, not.

[A]

The action of people taken the decision to enter into that environment, because that's a very big difference. And I. And I know that through conversations I've had with vets, specifically Iraq veterans, when they hear people say that they think that the person is in some way degrading their service. And the. That is not the case.

[C]

Right. At all. Right. And that. That's a hard line. It's a hard line to cross. It's a hard line to cross because when I was over there, I feel very similar, hook, line, and sinker. We are fighting for the freedom of our country. I'm making sure that nobody flies a plane into my house. You know, you had this, like. I don't know what the grandiose idea was, but I definitely felt like what I was doing was the most important thing anybody on the earth could do. And the further away I get from that, the, the more guilt can seep in if you let it. But what really was going on over there, you know, why. Why really were we over there? And you start to, you know, go down some of those rabbit holes. And I try to stick with the fact that I was doing what I was ordered to. And when it comes down to unit level, not, not even battalion level. Right. But unit level, the squad I was with, we were just there to make sure that the guy next to us made it through. Right. And that's ultimately what you did. No matter what the, the, the country would have been, the theater of operation would have been, that's still kind of the same mission as every day was. What can we do?

[B]

I, I would say going back to the towers, getting hit. Right. And being motivated, like, we just took a bloody nose. And then enlisting and getting to see our country's finest come off and ready to move forward and retaliate, I think is one of the greatest things that I got to be a part of and the folks that were who did that, I'll always have such high levels of admiration for it. Getting to be in Fallujah and seeing warfighters forget rank and just every day is. You're living on the edge of every moment. Just trying to make it through and make sure that your budget buddies do it as well was the. The purest moments of my life. It was an exceptional. And I. I struggle even going back to do a reunion with the Fallujah Marines because they have such a high regard in my mind that if I see them again, I don't think that they'll live up to it. And I feel like that's weird. But they do hold.

[A]

Makes sense.

[B]

They hold a sacred spot in my head. Looking back though, on why we went and like you're saying, I get absolutely pissed off because we carry 7,054 dog tags for no reason. I can see I agree with you. In regards to going to Afghanistan, that seems to have made sense. Then weapons of mass destruction started getting talked about and now we go into Iraq, we have the greatest intelligence gathering agency known to man of all time, and you just get a whoops, oops, they weren't there. I call bullshit on all that. My second deployment there, connecting dots that KBR is owned by Cheney. There's direct money, just a shareholder. And I'm as simple. That's as simple as it needs to be to me.

[A]

But there's a few other lines connecting KBR than just Cheney. It's not like KBR chaining.

[B]

Yes, fair enough. But in my simple Marine brain, that's how I broke it down.

[A]

Guess who ran the chow halls in Afghanistan? Kbr.

[B]

Yeah. And so at that Kellogg, Brown and Root.

[A]

Look it up, people. Look up profitability from 1990 to 2001. 2001 to say 2011. Right.

[C]

It's going to be, I'm assuming, a bit little different.

[A]

It's hard to say. Hard to say what could have happened during that time period.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I remember being in Afghanistan, being served by people from African countries.

[C]

We had the Philippines at our KBR chow hall.

[A]

I mean, somebody I hope is sleeping really poorly on a really nice bed somewhere.

[C]

Massaging, just massaging them to sleep.

[A]

I mean, maybe you get to a level where it just doesn't matter and you just watch your compounding interest just crush every day and then you go buy a boat or something. I guess Take it to Monaco and gingerly touch tips. We've come full circle again.

[B]

I like talking about. If we're talking tips.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's interesting. I mean, I was such a different version of myself back then, too. I was so much younger, I think probably so much more ideal, realistic. I'm with you. I mean, I wasn't thinking about geopolitics. I was just, like, terrified I was going to make a mistake that would cost somebody their life or get somebody injured. My mantra was just don't up, don't up, don't up. Which is really good positive self talk.

[C]

It is, it is, it is.

[B]

Mine was pretty similar to that. Man.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do your job. Do your job. Do your job.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This is gonna suck. This is gonna suck. Here we go. Yeah. How can people support mvp? I know you're not looking for money so they can, they'll. They'll write you letters.

[C]

Yeah. Well, actually, we have, we have a giveaway this month that everybody that becomes a 20 month, $20 a month monthly donor gets put in for a drawing. And everybody that's been a donor before gets put in for a drawing for a Blackfoot 2.0 from Josh. Yep. And so. And that has our logo on it too. So it'll have our logo brand new in the box. And so that's, of course, a way that people can partner with us. Just sharing with a veteran in your life that we exist, you know, and let them check it out. You can't make that decision for them to come on a trip with us. But if you have somebody that you think matches what we've kind of described as somebody that's isolating, that may have gotten themselves P, H, A T.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I believe that's how my daughter spells it.

[C]

You know, like let them, let them know. Send them our way. Montanavetprogram.org, mtvetprogram.org those are some of the best ways that you can support us. We do VTATs, veteran LED therapeutic venture trips. So all of our volunteers that go on the trips are veterans. All the people that come on our trips are veterans, but the people surrounding, surrounding that aren't. And so we do have people that transport vehicles for us. So when we go into the bob.

[A]

Where do you guys enter the bob?

[C]

Well, it could depend. So we, we did this contiguous all.

[A]

The way because the western edge of the bob is right over here on the east side of Kalispell. Is it contiguous all the way to the western side over by Great Falls?

[C]

Yeah, we did a. We did a trip this year we called it XM2. So it wasn't a V tad, it was a different movement, extra movement to, to where we went from the western side to the eastern side. 80 miles over eight days with a group on foot.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

Yep. And, and so that's, that's one way. The, the main area we enter is our lake. Yeah, near our lake. And then when we're doing a four day tour.

[A]

Lake. Is this like a. Actually called that? Are you guys claiming ownership over some lake?

[B]

We do have one of those that we do claim.

[C]

Yeah, we do claim.

[B]

Yeah, but it's called Ben Lake. But yeah, this is our lake.

[C]

But, but we, we, we've done a trip through the Bob where we entered that same. But then we come out of Gibson Reservoir, if you're familiar with where that's at. Not even remotely, but it's a, it's a four and a half hour drive just to move vehicles. And so it takes a whole day for our volunteers to come and pick up the vehicles, move them over and then get back to Great Falls because it's near Augusta. So it's not, you know, it's, it's still an hour and a half drive, you know, two hour drive to the, the, the trail head. And so we have volunteers around that do that. We have a CrossFit competition that's just down here. Well, actually it's further. We're not Missoula, we're in Kalispell, Corvallis. At Corvallis CrossFit. That's in May. And then we also do a fundraiser called Backcountry Immersion. And so it's with. Have you heard Laura Zara. No. From Naked in Afraid. Yeah, so Laura Zara.

[A]

No, no, hold on. Alone is the one I was thinking.

[C]

Oh, alone. Yeah, that's one of my favorite survivor shows is alone.

[A]

But I have no interest in watching nude people try to survive.

[C]

So she's been on Naked and Afraid nine times.

[A]

Just so you know, that's disqualifying. Mental issues present themselves in a variety of different ways. Having said that, I'm not a mental health counselor.

[C]

Coach.

[A]

Coach or knowledgeable in any way. However. No, no. So wear some clothes.

[C]

I, I agree completely. When she first signed up from the Discovery Channel, they didn't tell her that's what it was. They said it was just a minimalist survival. And so.

[A]

Yeah, but you know what, somewhere along the way they did tell her on.

[C]

The boat when they said get out and go.

[A]

That's not how that works. I've been on a TV show. There's contracts.

[C]

That's how she tells the story.

[A]

Yeah. So I, I tell interesting stories too short of who I want to be. Sometimes I just joke.

[C]

I know nothing about To Laura though.

[B]

She is the toughest female I have ever met.

[A]

There's no way they make you get naked in the last moment, though. Let me just tell you, in the society we live in.

[B]

No, fair enough. I mean, certainly as a choice, I would actually say that if it's a choice and you're getting naked to go do that, that's probably even harder. Right. Like you're going to do that willingly to me is. Yeah, that's tough as hell.

[A]

We should do a link up at the coffee shop if you guys are interested in doing some fundraising. And then every quarter we switch out our roundup for when people check out to round up to a charity. We can throw you guys on for one of the quarters if you want.

[C]

Oh, that'd be wonderful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I wish you guys actually entered the bob somewhere over here because then we could either start you guys at the shop or I could do. I'm trying to think of a cool way we could do something with the helicopter to support you guys.

[B]

We're always changing where. What we're doing and where we're going. I mean, we don't want to do the same route every single time. That gets boring for team leaders. So we're always changing that stuff. And the Montana Pilots association has actually flown us into landing strips before as well.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Those.

[A]

The grass ones. The.

[B]

Yeah, well. And as well as like Columbus has an airstrip that we. They flew us down to last year. But that would be, that would be awesome.

[C]

So actually with the helicopter. Helicopter with backcountry immersion, we take anybody and it's just a three thousand dollar donation. You can come with us. And then we only take 10 people. Yes. We're out there with Laura now. We're this year. Steve. Yes. She's close. Yeah. Stephen Lee hall and Stephen Lee. Yeah. Stephen Lee Hall Jr also from Naked and Afraid.

[A]

What the guys, it's just, it's just.

[C]

The way the universe works. And so those two being able to tell stories of, you know, being naked in Alaska and trying to survive for, you know, a few days and it's, it's crazy to be around themselves.

[B]

Dude, they've got some of the craziest stories.

[C]

They've got some crazy stories where they.

[A]

Don'T need to be chased by a lion with your dong flapping around like, it's just me.

[B]

Human beings have done this before, and they share stories with us about doing it. Believe me, it's. I enjoy getting to listen to their stories. Stories. And.

[C]

Well, it's two days of classroom time, then two days where we take all these participants that have learned with us for two days with no tents, no sleeping bags, no food, no water, and we go show them how to forage and do all of that stuff. Part of that is we clothe. We. We fly in search and rescue. But this last year, they had to walk in because they didn't have access to a helicopter. A helicopter. So they drop in and then they give a class on what they're looking for for when somebody is lost out in the woods. You know, from their perspective, what they're looking for.

[A]

People who are not from Montana. It is amazing to me, and I completely. I recommend to people all the time, come see Glacier. I think it rivals Yellowstone.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

But just because it's a national park doesn't mean that it will not eat your lunch. The number of people who come to Montana to experience the glorious nature of what we have, who are not wearing a jacket, who have no layers, who get up like so far over the top of their skis, and I'm not talking about in the winter season shocks me. The lack of respect that some people have for nature is shocking to me. This. The river that comes feeds Flathead Lake. They are pulling people out of that thing every year. Like, what did you think was going to happen? So please come, everybody, but holy cow, do some research and prepare yourself.

[C]

Layers. Layers would be nice.

[B]

That is one thing that's cool about the backcountry immersion course that we do teach is it's not only the Naked and Afraid team, but then three of us are also wilderness survival instructors. Right? Spent quite a bit of time doing this. We've got seer guys that come with us, SF medics and just getting to. To give the shortcuts. Right. You know this as well as I do. When it comes to military training, one of the biggest things is getting people in the same room that are going to give you all the cheat codes so you don't have to go learn yourself. So much of that can happen in the two days. And then getting to do the practical experience where we all go suffer together and it sucks. And you get to experience fatigue and cold and also leadership and get to see folks, you know, do it right alongside of you. There's a lot to be said for the amount of information that you will gain in 96 hours. So that in the future, whenever you want to go out into the backcountry in Montana, it won't eat you because we will go through all the scary stories that do absolutely happen where people just never get found again. Because to your point, they disrespected or just didn't have the knowledge. Knowledge to go see something beautiful.

[A]

Dude.

[B]

But a lot of times beautiful things can bite.

[A]

I'll keep the details super broad, but. So two Bear Air is based out of here in Kalispell and it's a free. They can even go into the park as well, too. Very technical. They can do winch. I mean they work with the sheriff's department search. They're amazing. They're actually switching out helicopters right now. So there is no helicopter that's local. But a young person went into glacier. They were going to just go and try to get to a high point. It was an unplanned hike. The classic storm. It never starts out like, well, what I was going to do was just traverse this trail. I was like, no, no, no. I just saw something and I wanted to go get up to the top. Found the snow line this person was wearing. I know for a fact it was running shoes and I think it might have been shorts and like probably very not technical layers. Found the snow line, went up into. Went up into the snow line, fell, got off trail, augered in feet first. Shoes came off, unable to get the shoes back out. Was out in the element for days. Two Bear found him. Pretty sure they lost portions of their limbs. And I'm friends with the person who went down and got them and his assessment was had it been a few more hours, it would have been a recovery as opposed to a rescue.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And they found it because of the thermal. But I mean the, the guy parked and was just like, oh, yeah, it's going to be a quick one.

[B]

Well, and that's one of the things that we learned from search and rescue too is just how challenging it is to actually go find a human being. That is cost.

[A]

And without those sensors too. Oh, my goodness.

[B]

Sure. Like you just said that you relied on thermal, if I understood that correctly. But if you're just going based off of a person's last location, hopefully you have that information trying to find that person and they could meander 15 miles in some direction. That doesn't make sense. For anybody who's going to go into the backcountry and think that search and rescue is just going to come save you, you need to think again because very, very, very rarely do they save you occasionally they find your body. Yeah, but saving you, you need to do that yourself. And so educating yourself when it comes to living and being in the back country of Montana is so important.

[C]

Well, and it's happened to so many people that they have stats now. So if it's a 30 to 40 year old veteran male, they know the software will now show them a route that's most likely that they went based on the terrain that's in front of them. If it's a single female, if it's a family unit, it's happened so many.

[A]

Times that they're able to put those stats haystacks. People like, oh yeah, just send a helicopter up. Let me tell you what it looks like cruising around at any air speed right over trees.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You could be out there with road flares and I might miss you.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And so we were. So the Montana Pilots association works with us on this as well. We do ground to air signaling. Right. Using the signal mirror. And it was interesting to find out from them they want to actually send more pilots this year because they only did one aircraft last year. Yeah. The pilot, first time trying it with us this year said he had no idea where we were at. We had three large blue tarps that were out on the ground in an area that you could absolutely see. He had no clue where we were at until we used our signal mirror.

[A]

To get your attention.

[B]

For sure it'll get your attention. But just to your point of how challenging it is to be, you know, 5,000ft off the deck and trying to find that needle in the haystack. Haystack.

[A]

Well, helis are even lower so you have a shallower angle of looking at. You're just like, oh, I think I hear him here going, at least an aircraft might be up there in an orbit. You just like, I think I hear a turbine. Yeah, we're going to die.

[C]

Never mind, we're going to die now.

[B]

Do you experience that? You know, this is one thing I always like to talk about with survival is that moment that you just said that took 13 seconds. In 13 seconds, you just spiked every bit of adrenaline, emotional state, stamina, anything this positive feeling just went through the roof. Excited, I'm gonna get saved. Gone massive trough afterwards. Just burnt up so much energy. Now my life sucks into the worst feeling you could ever have. That happens in 13 seconds. And now climb yourself out of that because you still have a long ways to go.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's actually the biggest part of what we do both on veteran trip trips. And the backcountry immersion is just the mentality of it all ends up being one of the, the, the things that's going to save your life is, is your mental well being and how are you handling that?

[A]

I'm assuming since you know Josh, you have a good collection of his knives.

[B]

This guy has a huge collection. I have one knife that was donated to us. Yes.

[A]

These are for you boys.

[C]

Oh goodness.

[B]

Really?

[A]

What's your favorite color? If you had to choose between OD green and coyote, I'll go green.

[B]

Thanks man.

[A]

Don't pull a Dana White and almost cut your finger off as you pull. Have you guys seen that?

[B]

No.

[A]

I mean there's a variety of ways to pull a knife out of a sheath. One of the recommended ways is not to have your finger bridging the gap or go, Yeah, I know.

[C]

This is the number one on my list that I want that I don't have yet. There you go. Yeah, it's, it's, it's amazing.

[A]

Pull that sucker up. Might, might even have the podcast branding.

[C]

Etched on that thing and which is.

[A]

Of course a massive dong.

[C]

We have to show people when you.

[A]

Go on, do not cut your fingers fair.

[C]

When you come on backcountry immersion, I show people how to open these because the easiest is putting your thumb on the non sharp side and you just push. And so I give everybody a class cuz you get a, you get an MKC knife when you're done with it.

[A]

My understanding is that Dana basically, basically grabbed everything at the bottom of the sheath and just went sink and then went to the hospital.

[B]

Oh, Andy, I've been like thinking about this knife for we both.

[A]

There you go. Look at the other side. There you go.

[C]

Oh, excellent. Thank you so much. Of course. And I didn't mean to blow by to talk about backcountry immersion. As you said, the things that you were willing to do to partner with us and help us raise money. I want to be expressed especially and completely clear my gratitude. One of, one of. I have a few philosophies in life, but my. The main one I stick to in situations like this is that the world has us confused. That money is an extremely rare thing. It's hard to get, but the truth is they print it every day.

[A]

Yeah. You know what's harder to get? More time.

[C]

More time. We have no expiration date. We have no idea how long we're going to have. And so when you give time to someone.

[A]

Exactly. I have 12 years, three months left. But it's going to be A banger, though.

[C]

But it's, it's an investment, Andy. It's an investment. And you and both young Michael have invested your time in us complete strangers that reached out to you through email. I was, I called him right after you responded to my email and I was like, I didn't know that this was going to happen. Like, there was just a shot in the dark that clearly.

[A]

Right. Somebody checks their email.

[C]

Yeah, somebody checks their email and says so. I, I, I thoroughly, I thoroughly appreciate that and sharing your platform, but especially sharing your time and investing that, that's, it's. Yeah.

[A]

Let's figure out a way to do something cool out of the coffee shop or base or at least support. If you guys are going to do the raffle for the knife. We could throw in a bunch of coffee or a gift basket or something like that from the shop. All that stuff's easy, man. That's.

[C]

Yeah, that would be awesome. That would be awesome.

[A]

You just promise not to cut your fingers off with those war goats because those things. Talk about eating your lunch.

[C]

They're wicked. They're wicked. I, this, this. Josh, you talk about it when you do your, your ad reads, right?

[A]

Oh, those are some of the easiest ad reads. They sent me some text. I'm like, get in here with that. I'm saying what I want to.

[C]

Yeah. Because it's the easiest one with generational guarantee. They're not factory sharp. They're like almost hand sharpened.

[A]

Like, what he's building is also amazing. So I flew the heli down and picked those up. Because the other box, for all the background of the studio and they have a jacket coming out. And he was like, hey, what size are you? I'm like, I'll be there tomorrow. One of those fall off the truck?

[C]

Do you have one?

[A]

Yes, yes.

[C]

Here.

[A]

Can I touch it? I don't have it here. You know why my coffee shop manager has been making fun of me? She keeps saying I look like I'm wearing a sleeping bag. And I was, I'm emotionally, you know.

[B]

Is it a cool sleeping bag?

[A]

It's amazing. But I was being mocked to my face by my employee and it's, I motioned I couldn't do that.

[B]

How old is your employer?

[A]

Late 20s.

[B]

Yeah, they don't count.

[A]

Trust me. She's the only reason that that shop is still functioning. But yeah, it's like after three days, I was like, I'm going to change it up. I just wore. No, that jacket's.

[C]

The jacket's legit. And I, I, on the 20th. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's all I got boys. What else do you want to close out with? We been out for two and a half plus hours.

[C]

Excellent. Yeah, appreciate. I didn't even. I hadn't looked at the time.

[A]

You guys drive back to Great Falls tonight?

[B]

Tonight?

[A]

Well, it's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You got a little bit of. You got at least 10 minutes of sun. Probably get to your car.

[C]

Well, we. We were talking about the route back. Cuz you can kind of go the Sealy Lake way or you can go up through Glacier and Great Falls. And the way we came in was Missoula. Cuz we have a team leader down there that we met with.

[A]

And with the temperatures like there were today, I think you'd be fine going through the park.

[C]

And that's what we decided on also.

[A]

Just there's no new precipitation in then I think. Yeah, I don't think the roads are icy right now.

[C]

And going through the Sealy. It's the Sealy going through Sealy Lake area. There's so much game at night.

[A]

I have almost hit elk going the low passway.

[C]

Well and. Yeah, right.

[A]

Oh my God.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

I've had the same center of the lane.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe these speed limits should be followed. Why is it so low? And then you come around a corner like that's a huge bull, Mar. But that bull's going to win versus my truck.

[C]

So. Cool.

[A]

Well, I'll get you guys out of here. We'll put all the links up and stuff. And yeah, the coffee shop stuff. Easy. The roundup and all that. That's a piece of cake. I just need to know where to direct it.

[C]

Yep. Okay. Thanks.

[A]

That's how you do it. Yeah, man.

[C]

We interrupt this program to bring you.

[B]

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[C]

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[A]

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