Jail, Lawsuits, and The Comeback After Everything Fell Apart | Mike Glover | Ep. 462

Summary

Cleared Hot Podcast (Ep. 462)

Jail, Lawsuits, and The Comeback After Everything Fell Apart

Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: Mike Glover
Date: August 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode brings together two veterans—Andy Stumpf (Navy SEAL) and Mike Glover (Special Forces/Green Beret, Fieldcraft Survival founder)—for a raw, wide-ranging conversation about personal and professional setbacks, comebacks, leadership, legal battles, mental health, writing, and the enduring bonds forged through hardship. The episode dives into the fallout and redemption after Glover’s business crashed and legal issues resulted in jail time, candidly exploring the weight of public controversy in the special operations community, business trials, and what it takes to rebuild life and purpose. There are also deep dives into aviation, health routines, publishing, and lessons in resilience.

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Key Discussion Points & Timestamps

1. Veteran Storytelling, Podcasts & The Power of Oral Histories

[00:41 – 03:55]

• Andy and Mike swap stories about favorite military podcasts and memorable interviews, particularly surrounding helicopter operations and the “Roberts Ridge”/Operation Anaconda incident.
• They analyze the nuances and controversy about Medal of Honor recipient Britt Slabinski, highlighting how rumors and "armchair quarterbacking" distort narratives.
• Quote:
  "There’s tons of nuance in between...I hate when people use broad terms like 'big Navy.'" — Andy [04:53]

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2. Book Publishing, Bestseller Status, and Why It Matters (Or Doesn’t)

[08:28 – 23:15]

• Conversation on the behind-the-scenes grind of launching a book, hitting lists like NYT and WSJ, and how marketing and perception impact reach, especially for niche/preparedness topics.
• Both reflect on their publishing experiences—writing vs. ghostwriting, audiobook trends, the realities of book advances, and Mike’s refusal to write a second book despite industry pressure.
• Quote:
  "Mistakes are tuition payments. That doesn’t mean they don’t sting." — Andy [12:41]
• Mike jokes that if he did a second book it would be titled I’m Not Doing a Second Book [23:02].

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3. Business Setbacks, Legal Battles, and Coming Back After Hitting Bottom

[11:23 – 13:34; 39:11 – 42:12; 112:27 – 113:06]

• Mike vulnerably details how Fieldcraft Survival, his company, unraveled amid legal entanglements and a forced self-removal, with Andy sitting on the board and ultimately having to vote to remove him for the sake of the company.
• He describes the isolation and anxiety of the fallout, jail time, and the slow, sometimes humiliating, process of regaining control.
• The importance of friend networks and personal accountability highlighted as a core element to recovery.
• Quote:
  "There was nothing in there that was thanks to me...I had to vote to remove one of your best friends from the company that they created." — Andy [40:29] "If I didn’t have support, I think it would have been a lot more difficult." — Mike [113:06]

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4. Jail, Adaptation, and Survival in Adversity

[42:25 – 45:13]

• Mike describes his brief incarceration: using his background to diffuse potential danger, running impromptu yoga and breathing classes with hardened inmates, and finding unexpected connection.
• Quote:
  "It was like story time with Mike. It would have been the greatest podcast on the planet...I knew what was happening was temporary, but I didn't know if it was going to be permanent." — Mike [43:40]

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5. Health, Hormones, and Middle Age: Open Discussion

[11:06 – 16:09; 46:12 – 47:07]

• Both discuss the impact of stress on health, shifting workout routines (kettlebell, Jiu Jitsu, anxiety as a diet suppressant), and deep dives into Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT)—pitfalls, good medical management, and the importance of tracking individual labs.
• Quote:
  "Get your blood checked on your own...maintain your own agency, staying on top of this stuff. I look at it as a personal science experiment." — Andy [15:19]

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6. Alcohol, Addiction, and Changing Habits with Age

[47:17 – 54:29]

• Open talk about sobriety, reduced cravings (thanks in part to medication like GLP-1 drugs), what’s gained and lost by drinking, and the cultural shift away from alcohol in the vet/military/veteran space.
• Quote:
  "I’m thankful for some of the experiences I have had in my life when I was drinking...but in the season of life that I’m in right now, it doesn’t serve me as well." — Andy [49:33] "The alcohol industry is getting their shit pushed in. Down 54%, the lowest in 90 years…" — Andy [54:34]

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7. Lawsuits, Special Ops Drama, and the Conflicted Legacy of High-Profile Missions

[56:15 – 54:29; 57:42 – 79:53]

• Deep focus on the ongoing controversy between Rob O’Neill, Matt Bissonnette, Brent Tucker, and others regarding who shot Bin Laden and the public lawsuits arising from conflicting public stories and podcasts.
• Andy and Mike discuss the impact such drama has on the credibility and unity of the special operations community, with wide-ranging consequences for future generations and public trust.
• Quote:
  "The Navy will never come forward and set the record straight. Most people, the vast majority, give precisely and exactly zero fucks about who killed Bin Laden. They're just stoked that he’s dead." — Andy [73:31] "Everything that comes after that diminishes it... but the microscopic group of people that care have vast influence over very young, impressionable minds." — Andy [73:27]

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8. Moral Injury, Therapy, and Navigating Trauma Post-Service

[81:40 – 89:53]

• Mike asks Andy about resilience and moral injury—why some operators cope better than others, the role of therapy, and how identity and purpose must come from within, not from a uniform or past glories.
• Andy is candid about therapy, negative self-talk, and the importance of having a civilian social circle outside "the tribe."
• Quote:
  "One long-pole excuse I hear from veterans: 'Why would I go to a therapist who doesn't have my experience?' They don't have to... If you can find the right counselor, they're going to help you understand you." — Andy [85:45]

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9. Leadership, Books, and the Reality of Transitioning Out

[22:16 – 23:02; 112:29 – 113:06]

• Discussion on transitioning military leadership to the civilian world—noting that most military lessons don’t translate directly; principles must be adapted.
• Quote:
  "There is no Navy SEAL leadership... Most of what we were taught about military leadership and how it applies to civilians—most of it's a lie." — Mike [22:19]

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10. Aviation, Technical Discussion, and Montana Life

[24:14 – 36:01; 95:45 – 106:26]

• Aviation tech talk: differentiation between Helos (little birds, Chinooks, Blackhawks), technical and psychological aspects of flying and BASE jumping, and how it interfaces with the outdoors-focused life in rural Montana.
• Andy talks about volunteering for search and rescue, and the advantages of rekindling his passion for aviation.
• Interlude about helicopter survival gear and Montana backcountry realities, with some brand/product shoutouts.

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11. Identity, Faith, and Purpose After the Military

[113:01 – 116:26]

• Mike and Andy discuss faith, support networks, and how reconnecting with foundational values (for Mike, Christianity) was central to recovery.
• The importance of openness, purpose, and healthy relationships is highlighted.
• Quote:
  "Getting rooted back into the foundations of my faith have benefited me greatly... Just getting back to it because a lot of guys depend on that message, and it's helping me." — Mike [114:55]

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12. Closing Reflections: Community, Legacy, and Seeking Help

[121:14 – 124:12]

• The episode closes with Mike urging listeners, especially those in crisis, to reach out for help.

• Data shared about suicides in the Green Beret and SEAL communities—now exceeding combat deaths.

• Story and commemoration for a fallen friend, emphasizing the enduring human cost of service.

• Quote:
  "Be encouraged... There is purpose to be driven, a mission to accomplish outside your identity in the military. There are phases to life that are not tied to your profession." — Mike [122:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Mistakes are tuition payments. That doesn’t mean they don’t sting or make you question your ability." — Andy [12:41]
• "It was like story time with Mike... I had these guys doing yoga, breathing exercises, and talking about our kids." — Mike [43:40]
• "You have to maintain your own agency in staying on top of your health. It’s a personal science experiment." — Andy [15:19]
• "The Navy will never do that either... Most people give precisely and exactly zero fucks about who killed bin Laden. They're just stoked that he's dead." — Andy [73:27]
• "One long-pole excuse... is 'why would I talk to a counselor or therapist who doesn't have my experience?' They don't have to." — Andy [85:45]
• "Don't be afraid to reach out. Suicide is a serious thing in our community, but across the spectrum... Listen to some of the advice... and get help." — Mike [121:14]

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Episode Flow & Tone

• Tone: Candid, irreverent, brotherly, sometimes dark yet ultimately life-affirming. Heavy doses of gallows humor cover serious subjects, with banter giving way to deep honesty.
• Style: Tangential, story-driven, with digressions into everything from helicopter mechanics to publishing, to mental health and parenthood.
• Notable: The episode keeps the “real talk” promise. Not just war stories, but how to survive the aftermath—be it lawsuits, jail, or simply reinventing what it means to live well after service.

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Recommended Listen Timestamps

• [11:23] — Mike describes business/life collapse, Fieldcraft saga, and personal toll.
• [42:25] — Jail experience and lessons from vulnerability/adversity.
• [57:42 – 79:53] — The Rob O’Neill/SEAL “who shot Bin Laden” controversy and lawsuit fallout.
• [81:40] — Moral injury, therapy, and the search for purpose post-service.
• [112:27] — Reflections on faith, network, and support structures in recovery.
• [121:14] — Final encouragement and mental health resources.

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Final Takeaway

This episode stands as a masterclass in fortitude, humility, and how to grow through the worst—whether it’s federal lawsuits, business implosions, or the weight of legacy. It’s a must for anyone curious about the “next battles” faced by America’s elite veterans and the universal lessons that come after the war—about healing, purpose, and community.

Transcript

[A]

Okay, I got the red smoke.

[B]

Sun runs north to south west of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. Come on with it, baby.

[A]

Give it to me. I need it.

[B]

You're cleared hot.

[A]

Can't be cleared hot. About that tall or sometimes you need double A's.

[B]

I don't. You know what's wild?

[A]

How the. Do you have these?

[B]

I don't remember why that's in my pocket. For 100 honesty's sake. I don't know why those are banded in a rubber band in my front left one's inverted.

[A]

Like one's tits down. That's really weird.

[B]

You can't have everything tits up. Right.

[A]

That's super funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how's the. How's the. You know my favorite podcast that you've ever done?

[B]

No.

[A]

And I rarely listen to you because I don't like hearing your voice.

[B]

Have you considered going and yourself a

[A]

little bit this morning? I did. On the way here. The helicopter pilot, the CW5 from 1/60th.

[B]

Bro, that was a alimac.

[A]

Because you were. You were more interested in that conversation than anyone. Because that conversation was about helicopters.

[B]

And yeah, now I know how many times they almost killed us.

[A]

I know. That was rad, dude. That was the.

[B]

I think what's not rad is looking back and thinking before knowing what some of the noises meant. And the shuttering and the blade chop.

[A]

Because he got shot down in Anaconda. Right. And yeah.

[B]

But then just got into another one. He thought they were going to die. He lost all hydraulic control of the aircraft.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

So the stick everything locked up and I believe they were in a descending slight right hand turn.

[A]

Yeah. Which he came off the slope. He came off the.

[B]

Well, he was able to pull. He was able to level it out a little bit. But had the crew chief not pumped in a quart of hydraulic fluid?

[A]

Yeah. In real time while it was happening

[B]

they would have been on that descent. Right hand turret until they framed. They no longer continued to exist.

[A]

And. And was it Neil Roberts was on

[B]

his helicopter right before that dive off of the mountaintop.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

Neil went out the back.

[A]

What did he say about. Did Neil. Did Neil think they were on the ground because they were roping? They weren't roping. They were coming off the back of the ramp and he came off of it thinking they were infilling.

[B]

I didn't ask him but if you think about it, he would probably be the last person to know what Neil thought.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Crew chief in the back may have a better idea because he was from my end again. Now understanding more, they are head out, head in. They're looking at monitoring. They have two pilots. Right. So one can be monitoring the gauge. So he's flying that aircraft on short,

[A]

listening to the crew chief.

[B]

So yeah, he would have not probably know. I know that Neil had to have been unclipped. Not that I was ever clipped in in a 47.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he had to have been near the ramp.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I believe he was probably preparing to run off. Is my understanding they were going to land and then depart at night. At night. I believe he might have been in the process of getting off or close enough to the back or when it pitched, he went out the back. I'm not sure how far he fell, if he fell at all, or if he had just taken a step off and the helicopter took off. But again, he was.

[A]

Did you interview the TL that received the medal of Honor for that Slabinski?

[B]

No, I have not sat down with him for a conversation.

[A]

I don't think I've ever heard him in a conversation.

[B]

Michael, will you look up and see if there is. His name is Brit Slabinski. Slab Inski I N S K I Because you.

[A]

That's super controversial. But you told me personally, I remember we had a conversation a long time ago that based on what you know, of that circumstance, there was enough he didn't know. And it's easy for people to arm chair quarterback the ISR and go, well, you could see he's right there, Neil's right there. But it was at night in the snow. Yeah, that guy.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know if he's done a full sit down podcast about it. Yeah, that's Brit. So he augmented us for OIF1.

[A]

What do you mean? Augment.

[B]

He came with Gold Squadron even though he was at Blue first and then ended his career at Red at the command.

[A]

Oh, got it, got it, got it.

[B]

After that. And I don't know, and I don't want to hypothesize as to why he had augmented us, but he was with us there for OIF1, the initial invasion of Iraq as a teal. He was the team.

[A]

That element or no, just the Assaulter,

[B]

just as an Augment. And so I had the opportunity to hear him in his own voice in a real close proximity time to that happening because that happened while I was in Green Team.

[A]

Yeah. AAR style.

[B]

It just. He told this story to the group. It wasn't necessarily an aar. He here's what I know. His version of events that he lived. I have not heard his version of events deviate from when he has told that story. I know there's a huge controversy and people think that the Navy pitted itself against the Air Force. I'm not. I also hate when people use broad terms like that.

[A]

Yeah, like.

[B]

What do you mean? Like big Navy.

[A]

There's tons of nuance in between.

[B]

Yeah. Do you mean a guy in the Naval Special Warfare and a guy in afsof? Maybe. I don't know. There is a bunch of controversy that is around that that has continued on to the Medal of Honor Museum. We're talking about Chapman, who was originally. I think he was given the Air Force Cross, but it has been upgraded to the Medal of Honor as well. There's a discrepancy in the current displays, and I actually was just there in Arlington at the museum, so I got to see where one person's name is and the other one in the display, and I wasn't a part of that. People talk about the tie or the connection between Britt and the foundation and all those things. I leave that to everybody. All I can say is back in 2003, the one time I heard it from his own mouth, it has matched every version that I have heard. And he believes what he is saying. Yeah, I wasn't there. I don't have the facts. That's all I can say.

[A]

Was Neil. I. I thought there was controversy between. In the Task Org of what Neil Roberts was doing. Was he working with OGA or the ground branch at the time, or was he attached to Blue as a controller?

[B]

Because he was talking about Chapman.

[A]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Chapman.

[B]

He was attached to Blue Squadron, is my understanding.

[A]

Got it, got it, got it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which is wild, because when you see that and you realize that, like, what he was doing, fighting uphill, like he's an Air Force guy, and I just. That.

[B]

Yeah, but he's a 24th STS.

[A]

Yeah, he's STS guy. So he's working exclusively with Blue, Correct. Yeah.

[B]

So he knew what he was doing. And they had very limited people that'd be able to go back up there.

[A]

There's a couple guys, right?

[B]

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[A]

And they were. I know. They were Chechnyan or they were like trained dudes with bkms.

[B]

I don't know. Scariest environment imaginable.

[A]

Wild man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyways, that podcast is my. What number is that?

[B]

I have absolutely no idea.

[A]

But you knew.

[B]

Michael.

[A]

Michael. Michael knows. That podcast is awesome. I'm interested in the roto wing stuff, too.

[B]

I know. I just saw you post a picture of a little bird questioning your career path. I don't think you would have been a good pilot.

[A]

I. Probably not.

[B]

Yeah. I think you would have crashed and died.

[A]

I probably would have died.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

During whatever their green team is, their selection.

[B]

Oh, you wouldn't have made it that

[A]

far.447 at the basic. Yeah, I would have been done.

[B]

I feel like you would have failed out in the aptitude section or vision.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because we just talked about this with your reporter buddy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

About how the. The article of your. Can we say that word? We can't even say that word.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

We can't even say it. I'm not even going to use that because I don't want to get you suppressed and ruin your numbers that are already down a little bit, Are they? Probably since your book release.

[B]

I mean, look at who we're talking about. How could the numbers be going anywhere but down?

[A]

How does it feel, though, Post? This is. This is crazy because I already know how you feel about this. It's not a big deal. New York Times bestseller. You're like, I just did a thing, and you're that. But hitting that list because it's very controversial and political.

[B]

It's not a sales list, and a lot of people don't know that.

[A]

It's. It is very and. But what. What they do guarantees, like when you hit that list, they guarantee mass dissemination. Which was my interest in hitting the list. Because I'm like, prepper crap doesn't get widely disseminated because everybody's scared of it. Which is why I didn't hit the list. I hate the Wall Street Journal list, which makes me a national bestseller. But I see your. Everywhere I go on the. Every airport I've been in, it's in every section of the airport, every Barnes and Noble, it's front and center. And it's mass disseminated because it made that list. So 1. Congratulations.

[B]

You could have had your name on that book, too.

[A]

You probably wouldn't have wanted my name on that book at the time.

[B]

Listen, life choices have consequences. It worked out in my favor. But don't think I'm going to let you slide away from promising to do something and coming. The day we were supposed to share our work together. Yeah. You had nothing. Nothing.

[A]

Here's why. Because I really prefer a ghostwriter that writes it for you. And you actually.

[B]

I enjoyed it.

[A]

You actually write.

[B]

Yeah, I enjoyed the process.

[A]

You had three quarters of the book. No, actually, you had it mostly done when we went to our first.

[B]

Yeah. Remember? That was the agreement we had.

[A]

I didn't have one page done.

[B]

I am aware of that.

[A]

I can't write, man. You know what I do? Will I talk.

[B]

You just handed out one of your books at the event.

[A]

I just did. So I read that book out loud because it's all my experiences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And had Neil. Niels, the guy.

[B]

Neil Neals.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

I was gonna say we got to work on that.

[A]

Is it Niels Parker? It's my. It's my. My editor who did. Matt. Best New York Times best selling book. Congrats, Matt. But. But he did his. And what I did is I read like, literally sitting in the bathtub in the vehicle on commutes. Talked about the courses that I was teaching at the time. And the same thing with you. All the subject matter, most of the highlights in the book that I listened to. I didn't read your book, but I listened to it. Thanks.

[B]

You're a good friend.

[A]

Yeah. I bought the audio and the printed copy today. Gave one away. And you didn't even send me a copy. I had to buy it on Amazon.

[B]

I can't send a book to jail.

[A]

That's true. They don't. They don't.

[B]

They're gonna cut. They got files in it. Have you never watched TV shows?

[A]

Oh, so good. That was good. You're getting sharp. That windstraw. That windstraw is cognitively powerful. Peptide, what is your. I was gonna ask you what your health and wellness routine is because I've never seen you more lean, more healthy.

[B]

It's called crushing anxiety and stress. It really helps suppress your diet.

[A]

Is it cortisol? What have you changed? You changed something.

[B]

I mean, I'm only partially joking about the crippling anxiety and stress. Everybody thinks business is fun from the outside until. Dude, look, not that you have ever experienced anything like this, but the reality. I don't know anything about business. Yeah, I'm learning. I'm trying to, I'm not trying to repeat mistakes. And I tell myself that mistakes are tuition payments and I do mean that. But that doesn't mean they don't sting or hurt or make you question your ability as to whether or not you can continue down your path in the future. Is this worth it? This, that or the other? You know, some business partner issues. We can leave it at that. Speaking very broadly, there's really large dollar figures associated with the coffee shop that I'm responsible for and a headcount there to make sure it makes enough money to do those things. Those things weigh on me very, very much. You know, there were some back end stuff, personal stuff, financial stuff that has all been tied up and coming, like tax related because I'm not being able to get the. To undo the litany of accounting that we needed to that just detonated with the turnover in business partners. It took almost a year and a half of forensic accounting.

[A]

This is the old business partner.

[B]

Yeah, but it took almost a year and a half of that stuff to unwind it. So there's things that are like bills that are due that are. The vig is running every month to the government, you know what I mean? And all those things are fine, but it's, it's stressful, man. I've. I am added weight training back in with Jiu Jitsu, Kettlebell or odd objects only. No linear barbell stuff. So mostly just kettlebells, but doing that two to three days a week. Jiu Jitsu as much as I can. A clean diet, really, it's about the biggest difference. Peptides, occasionally I played around a little bit with MOT C. If I ever get injured. The old, you know, the old TB500. No, BP157.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

TB5, whatever. The Wolverine cocktail thing is.

[A]

Yeah, I've done that a little bit. The Motsi I've done.

[B]

Yeah, I've been on TRT for two Years at this point. And finally have. That was a wild journey of too much, not enough, too much and just slowly titrating to a point where my body I, I'm at a good place with that.

[A]

Know what your numbers that you like. Is there a, A, a span like A.

[B]

Between 7 to 800?

[A]

Same with me is, I mean I'm not on it now, but I have to get back on it soon.

[B]

Why did you get off?

[A]

Because prison, I get it, prison is hard. But you do prison pt so I couldn't get a lot of runs in.

[B]

They don't let you have your test testosterone shot in the joint?

[A]

No.

[B]

Have you considered not getting arrested in the future?

[A]

I've actually been successful at that for a few, few weeks now.

[B]

Let's give it some time.

[A]

Let's get that before. Let's give it some time. One of the things that I noticed is some of the TRT centers, like if you go to a local TRT place, we've had this conversation too. They don't manage your levels. And so if you don't have a place that's actually on top of that and they're telling you to do your blood work and they're like, dude, you're too high and they're regulating it. You're just taking what they tell you to do. Whatever it is, 2 mils. I forget what it is. But my levels were over a thousand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My natural at the time of testing once was like really low, but the second time was like 450, which is. It seems normal. I'm same the Same way at 7 and 900. 7 to 800. I'm like balanced.

[B]

Yeah. It's not a super physiological dose. I got for a short period. The dosage was increased and I physically didn't like how it felt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then had my blood checked. I would say have a heavier hand in your own science experiment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Get your blood checked on your own. I can link you up with my sister. She's actually the one who is managing my treatment at this point. She specializes in specifically women's hormone and the endocrine system, which apparently is far more complicated than men's. Yeah, allegedly.

[A]

Allegedly.

[B]

But she works with a bunch of San Diego city firefighters as well too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she. It's, it's a heavier handed approach, but you have to maintain your own agency in staying on top of that stuff. I look at it as a personal science experiment.

[A]

Yeah. Are you doing the, what is it called, the donation? Like you given blood.

[B]

I didn't need to.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

The amount of vials that she orders for me, I feel like satisfies. I leave there that they just keep popping. I'm like, I have to drive home after this. Yeah, please leave me some.

[A]

So she's doing all the diagnostics to look at all the blood panel.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. I needed to get tuned into her, and then. What's Brent Tucker's, anyways? He's setting me up for that program, and then it would be perfect. I'll link up with your sister to get the blood actually drawn and done. Right. Yeah.

[B]

You'll have better access where you live. I'm limited. The nearest facility insurance coverage is down in Missoula, so I'll zip down there, but you guys will have a bunch of testing facilities either in Park City or slc. Yeah.

[A]

Back to the New York Times bestselling stuff. You campaigned really hard in the paint.

[B]

Campaigned. What are we talking about? Was it right for office?

[A]

Well, you. You did the rounds.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it was part of a.

[B]

Like, have to.

[A]

Yeah, you have to. My experience with my publisher, especially when it came to preparedness, because they really didn't prioritize it at all because they've never really done a book.

[B]

Who was your publisher?

[A]

It's Penguin Random.

[B]

Yep. Which is one of the top three.

[A]

Yeah. One of the big ones. The big three, I think they're owned. Are they owned by Simon and Schuster? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know either.

[A]

Yours is St. Martin's St. Martin's Press. Yeah. Yeah. So when you did that, you did that all yourself, right? You booked all of that, all of

[B]

the main podcasts, The Chris Williamson, the Rogan, Cam Huberman afterwards. Yes. That was all just direct text messages.

[A]

What's your favorite podcast of all those podcasts that you did?

[B]

They're all different. Chris is. I mean, I did Chris's the day before I did Joe's, even though it came out afterwards. You know, having. Sitting down with Joe, you might talk about aliens and dinosaurs, or you might talk about current events. You never know what you're gonna get with Joe. Chris is. He takes a different approach. We dove into a lot of the things that were in the book Joe opened up, talking about, hey, you're an author now. I was like, yeah, kind of accidentally. Cause my douchebag friend tricked me into this. And. And then Cam was just sitting down and talking with a friend over. You know, I've had for years talking about the book, and so that was targeted. Hubern's afterwards was. I had never met him because I Had done the other ones. I'm not gonna say his was my favorite, but I'll say it was probably the most unique out of all of them. Cause it was our first time sitting down together, having a conversation, and it was different.

[A]

Was it focused on the book, or was it focused on.

[B]

He was able to tie in the neurological aspect, the things that I was talking about.

[A]

Really cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's just cool to sit down with somebody who makes you feel like a. Like you have a golden retriever level of intelligence.

[A]

Yeah, that's that guy, for sure.

[B]

Yes. And he was super cool. Again, we had communicated back and forth a little bit before that, very loosely over social media. And then I had actually reached out to him. I said, hey, we'd like to send you a copy of the book. No expectation. Don't read it if you want to use it to keep your door open, you know. And he wrote back. He's like, oh, too late. And he had. He sent back a picture of the book, and he said, probably time you come on the show. So that's how we linked it. Yeah, Very cool dude, for sure. So Chris is a good friend. Joe's a good friend. Cam's a friend. It's. You know what I mean? So I'm not gonna say I like one more than the other, but having never met Andrew and the facility that he had and the way that they had it structured, I thought it was really cool.

[A]

Did you do anything, like hot, cold, anything, like any therapeutic stuff, or was it just the podcast?

[B]

Oh, I don't participate in those things.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say I talked

[B]

to him about my cold and hot protocol.

[A]

I don't do cold.

[B]

The ice bath should be at 80 and the sauna is at 80.

[A]

I heard that on Rogan's podcast, too. Yeah. Yeah, I don't do that either. I could do the hot because I love the sauna, but the cold, my body feels physical pain that I cannot describe.

[B]

I think that's the point, though.

[A]

It's probably just the regular thing for everybody else. I've done all those podcasts. I've done Chris's. He focused on, prepared the book, and then I did all the other guys. I haven't done Hubermans. If I was going to, like, a bucket list podcast would be Huberman's, because I like his neurological approach to it. It's pretty cool.

[B]

It's interesting to hear somebody who doesn't have the experiences that we do explain why certain types of people lean towards those experiences or what you can get out of them from an actual. What your body is processing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As opposed to just the lived experience. So I found that to be fascinating.

[A]

Yeah. Where's he at?

[B]

Malibu is where we recorded. I don't know if he lives there. That's where his studio is. Malibu, California. Interesting. The New York Times thing was cool. Quite frankly, I am appreciative of it. But unlike our good friend Jack Carr, who will openly say he wanted to be a team guy and an author, he was really quiet about that second one while he was in. Smartly. I. You know this better than anybody. I resisted the idea of writing a book for years.

[A]

For years.

[B]

Told you to shut your face when you talk to me every time I ask you. You, like shut your mouth when you talk to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go get fucked and stay fucked. And finally the idea of doing it together was. The only thing, which again, you screwed me on in the future was what got me over the hurdle of the idea to do that. But since I had never put that on, we'll say a vision board or whatever, I can appreciate what it is, but it wasn't some fruit that I was looking at and desiring for a long period of time. So it's cool. But we'll leave it at that. It's cool.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I had no intentions of being an author. So to me, I understand what it means. Again, I'm very appreciative of the fact that it made every one of the best selling lists. I appreciate that deeply. I appreciate the support of the people who bought it. I'm just saying that accolade, if you will, not that they give you a ribbon or a certificate or anything like that. It would go into a binder or a drawer somewhere if it did, which is where all my other stuff is anyway.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think here's where the pressure is potentially applied is obviously when you hit that list, you become an author in demand because they know you can move the books from a strategy standpoint, publishing wise, but from a personal standpoint. I think about it like this one. You're a Navy SEAL who wrote a book about mapping one of the first

[B]

Navy SEALs to ever write a book. I don't know if you know that,

[A]

but not about being a Navy SEAL, really, because it's leadership applicable. And we've actually talked about it a lot, that it's. It doesn't have to do with Navy SEAL leadership. It actually changed my leadership seminar style

[B]

because I went, there is no Navy SEAL leadership.

[A]

Exactly. And all the things that we were Told about the military and how it applies to civilians. Most of it's a lie. And so this idea that. And I think we said it last podcast, these civilians don't have the buy in that a Navy SEAL candidate where he's. Where he's supposed to be and has to be.

[B]

How could they.

[A]

They don't. Right. Their incentive structure is completely different. And it's like, well, then what do you do? Well, you have a principle and then you have a way of changing and adapting that principle to a civilian. Completely different leadership style. So. Meaning that that book is evergreen and it doesn't have a lot to do with being a Navy seal. It's not a bis. And that it's not an o' Neill type book. If you were to do a second book, what would that book be?

[B]

It would be titled I'm not doing a second book.

[A]

You have to do a second book. We're just chalk this up. This is the first beginning session of. It will probably take 12 months for this one. Absolutely. For podcast, we'll have a second book on the New York Times bestseller list.

[B]

So the day that the new.

[A]

I'll take my cut.

[B]

The day that the book hit the list. So it came out on a Tuesday, you find out Thursday. No, I think it's Wednesday. The. The publishers find out. I think the following Wednesday.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I got a call from the literary agent.

[A]

Are they freaking out?

[B]

Now is the time to pitch your second one? Because what they see is like you said, I don't know if an author. I don't even know what an author in demand is. I'm going to put that on a business card, though. I like what that sounds like.

[A]

Yeah, get a T shirt.

[B]

But like Andy, author in demand, not going to write anything else. But, you know, she said, now's the time. Let's go get you a seven figure advance. And I said, what am I going to write?

[A]

I already know what it is.

[B]

No, we're not playing this game.

[A]

Just like I titled the other one, I'm going to title this one Mike.

[B]

Have you ever heard the saying, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[A]

You gotta hear me out at least.

[B]

I don't actually at all. I don't have to listen to a word that comes out of your filthy mouth.

[A]

I'm looking at right behind you. That's the context right there. Look at that picture.

[B]

I don't need to look. I know what it is. It is me in the American flag wingsuit sitting over the top of the

[A]

Oceanside Harpoon you have this world. So the only thing I could relate this to is to the world of photography that I have, which is a really nerdy passion. I collect cameras. I've been a photographer. I was a wedding photographer in the military part time because I loved it so much. In reconnaissance.

[B]

What was the name of your business? Photos by Mike.

[A]

It was White Star Photography.

[B]

What?

[A]

Named after the Vietnam White Star units that went in to do POW rescues. There was a. There was an organization of.

[B]

So exactly zero people on earth are going to get that reference. It has nothing to do with a POW photography.

[A]

It was a cool logo. It was a white star. But hear me out. So there's this world that you have that you actually keep pretty secret, but you don't really talk about it a lot.

[B]

What are you talking about?

[A]

The aviation?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Free fall, BASE jumping. Let's just call it aviation world because it kind of relates to aviation.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You're a world record holder and specific jumps routines. You actually did the world record again across every continent. And there's a. There's a whole world there that is very technical, but a lot of people don't understand that world. And also what it takes physiologically to be in that mindset, to be able to do things like that.

[B]

I don't think there's a book there.

[A]

There is for sure. Once you're at it, I'll give you a template. I'll line it on a template.

[B]

I have some pictures of you tumbling through the scale of skydiving saved on my phone for God. That montage I made of you and Evan was amazing.

[A]

It doesn't compare to Evan tumbling. Evan was kicking. He's a bowling ball.

[B]

No, no. Evan was kicking the air that did nothing. You were tumbling.

[A]

I was just. I was heavy dropping Hard to keep up with me in the sky.

[B]

No. So the agent called the day of. And, yeah, let's pitch a second book. I said no. And the reason is this.

[A]

What did he say when you said no?

[B]

It was a woman.

[A]

Oh. What did she say when you said no? She said, esther, yes. Yeah.

[B]

She said, people don't say that. And I said, okay, what am I gonna write? Well, and she pitched a few concepts, all of which I would say are ones that have already been done to a degree, but also I had no interest in. If I want to write something again, I will do it because I genuinely enjoyed the process, not because there is a check that might be associated with an advance that then puts me under a time crunch to do. So, yeah, I would rather say no. And if I ever change my mind, it's not like the New York Times bestselling title is going anywhere.

[A]

You got time.

[B]

Yeah, and I don't.

[A]

There.

[B]

I wrote about 40,000 words that didn't make the book about the triple seven that I still have. And maybe it was because it didn't fit well with the flow of the book, but the editors recommended that I pull that chapter out, and I did, and I'm glad that I did. Maybe that is a book in and of itself, but I don't know, man. Most people look at BASE jumping or skydiving and aviation, and they say, huh, interesting. But don't care. And I don't blame them.

[A]

But. But like you did, you were using the framework of the. The Seven Continent jump to. To talk about leadership. So it was kind of like the. It was the Trojan horse, right? You. You were. You were taking them along on a journey.

[B]

How many leadership books can there be, man?

[A]

Well, this. I don't think this is a leadership book. I think it has a lot to do with just like you lined out with this book. There's framework, and maybe you're talking about the mindset that it takes to do something like that.

[B]

It's not hard.

[A]

But you haven't. You relax, you haven't smile, you haven't distilled it.

[B]

What is there to distill? Here's the book.

[A]

There's a lot.

[B]

Chapter one, gravity Works.

[A]

We'll take Evan Hayden, who hates jumping.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so what does he go through? He goes through, like, this fight or flight kind of thing. He's pooping his pants. He doesn't like to jump. How. What makes. What's the difference between him and you psychologically?

[B]

One of us is a pussy and the other one isn't. I mean, at the technical level.

[A]

But if you look at all your. You're fascinated with aviation like I am, but just in a different way. Like, you're really. I mean, you're a. I mean, like,

[B]

I actually participate in it. And you look at pictures on the Internet.

[A]

You. You have a go. You have a Golf. Is a Golf. Golf stream.

[B]

Get it out.

[A]

A Golf Stream.

[B]

Golf Stream.

[A]

Is it Golf?

[B]

No. G, U, L, F. Gulf Stream.

[A]

Gulf Stream, yeah. You have a Gulf Stream pilot's license, which is a.

[B]

It's a type rating.

[A]

It's a type. It's a jet rating. Right. You have to be in a wingsuit. You don't just. You don't just do your C class license and you jump over and you're in a Wingsuit, like it takes.

[B]

You can.

[A]

You can. And you'll die. But even guys that you work with, when you base jumped, I think for a period of time, maybe when we met, even seven, eight years ago, you were known for that. Being that guy. Even the first Rogan podcast, which I listened to before I met you, I was fascinated with because nobody was talking about that. And like, the mindset it took and what you were doing, I don't do. I think it's when I heard that helicopter podcast and how super excited you were about, like, the subject I've been

[B]

nerding out about it.

[A]

Oh, dude. And it's. It's. It's super interesting. I don't know the framework. I'm just. It's a warning order. We're just throwing it out there because

[B]

Michael doesn't know what that is. Don't look at him when you say that.

[A]

Warning order. Look it up.

[B]

Michael, what's the warning?

[A]

You have access.

[B]

Don't, Don't. I don't want to hear your keys over there moving at all. What's a warning order? Do you want me to guess? Yeah, Yeah. I would say it's. I feel like it's military related in some way. Okay. That's not an answer. You are in the wheelhouse. I'm just giving you my thought process.

[A]

You're halfway there. Continue.

[B]

Okay. Military related.

[A]

I would feel like maybe flying related

[B]

as well, because you guys were just talking about.

[A]

Flying can be.

[B]

Tell us more. It has to. It's like something like you're about to do something maybe, and then something from like above you comes down and says, hey, be aware of this.

[A]

So don't do it. Well, bam.

[B]

No, he was so broad that that could have been like, how do you go get.

[A]

He took the word morning and then order. He could.

[B]

We could apply as he had to go into the chow hall for lunch. He was so, you know, it's some guys and they say some things and

[A]

they say what it is. That's exactly what it is.

[B]

It's a brief. Call it a conceptual overview. Be prepared for.

[A]

Yeah. What did you say? Let's just think about it. Let's just think about that.

[B]

So what are we thinking about, the morning order or the book?

[A]

We're planting the seed on the book.

[B]

What's it going to take for you to actually participate in aviation? I mean, you literally. I'll pull it up. You put up the post was of a MH6 little bird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or was it an ah. Was it an attack one that was an MH.

[A]

That I was sitting in, which is

[B]

an MD 500 Magnum PI helicopter for people who.

[A]

Have you ever flown one of those yet?

[B]

No.

[A]

Do you want to?

[B]

Of course. Don't ask me rhetorical questions.

[A]

1/60 will, like, let you fly that thing. I'm sure they would do that if

[B]

you're in the military. Yes, they will.

[A]

Well, no, no. Well, when I went. When I visited 160th and got a tour, they were, like, going to bring me up in it. Just like.

[B]

Were you in the military?

[A]

They did back in the. No, I was in Mother. It's just like a couple of years ago.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And they're like, hey, we'll take you up next time, and you can fly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, well, my M86 pilot back in the day that I had the letter of recommendation for aviation school, he let us do that for some reason. We had time and we were doing.

[B]

He let you go fly it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you take it off from the ground?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. He was very. He's like, don't touch anything, Mike. And I was like, I am not touching anything.

[B]

Let's just say the complicated phase of flight. Not. I'm not trying to reduce the complexity of this, but once you have some forward airspeed going, it is far easier to control than when you are at vertical airspeed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Speeds that transition from vertical to forward is where the sausage is made.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Hovering is. It's a. What's weird, though, is once you get it, you got it, you can refine it for the rest of your aviation career.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But once you understand what it feels like, like, okay, you got it. May not be the prettiest thing, but you got it.

[A]

Is anything close to fixed wing to that, or is it completely different Talking

[B]

on the radios and the airspace is the same. The control of the. The actual aircraft itself is very different.

[A]

And all the mechanical processes that you go through. The collector, everything is the collector. Is it collector, collective, the collective. See, there you go. See, you're so interested in this, the collective.

[B]

I am interested in knowing what the fuck I am talking about so you don't die. You're a collector of terms that. You don't know what they mean.

[A]

I'm a photographer. You're the pilot. I just think it would be a good book.

[B]

Collective, cyclic is what you have in your other hand, the forward back, left and right.

[A]

But all of that in your helicopter is the same in a little bird. Or is it? Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And is it? Because I know they say the little bird is like, fly by cable. Like, is it. It's not cable, is it.

[B]

It has no hydraulics, so you get direct feedback. I think it has a trim system, but yes. And it allows you. I would say that allows you to fly very precisely because you are getting instant feedback of any movement you make.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Those little bird pilots, they're amazing.

[A]

They are. The stuff they did. I can't even just. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Yeah. Now that I understand again, what they were doing with the platforms, what they were able to do. And then you layer into that nighttime.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Limited field of view. I mean, come on.

[A]

I just befriended. He apparently told me he's the only Asian. He's. He's half Korean. The only. His last name's Kim. He just got out of the military out of 160th, and he's AH6 pilot. And he flew AH6s for, I think, the last decade. And it's like, how was the run, man? He's like, it was amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that if you had one job in aviation to do in the military, what would that be? Hmm.

[B]

Are we rolling fixed wing into this too?

[A]

No, just rotary.

[B]

I don't know, man. The Apaches seem pretty cool too.

[A]

That seems pretty dope.

[B]

I mean, Alan makes the 47s seem amazing.

[A]

I don't like. I would never think Chinook, but when he talked about it, I was like, oh.

[B]

I mean, if they said you can be a Chinook pilot or a Daps pilot, for people listening, that's a 6. So the AH6 and the MH6 are based off the same platform. One has the platforms on the side where people can. Beyond the other one is an assault platform that is loaded out with rockets and guns. There's a Blackhawk, which is people in it, and then there's the Daps, which is the attack version, like the AH6. And that thing has just got all the heat.

[A]

Sick.

[B]

So I. Man, that would be tough to say no to those AH or the Daps platforms.

[A]

The AH6 seems like it'd be real cool because they're so independent. It's like just a couple dudes in one platform. And one of my last trips to Afghanistan, the. The ground force commander gave the A6s permission to do strikes and do their own BDA. So they would fly. Instead of risking an entire task force in a vehicle interdiction, they would fly out and DF directionally find the car vehicle with the cell phone, destroy it, and then go around and do the BDA from the air from the air and, and relay it on the radio. And I'm like, why haven't they always been able to do that? Because that sounds really awesome. Because typically they're doing close air support for a vehicle interdiction element.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If things pop off. But at the time, we're so restricted because of platforms. We didn't have a lot of helicopters. We actually had. You would have loved this. We had mi17s and that.

[B]

My last point in 2010, we use that as a. Yep. Insertion extraction platform quite a few times.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

Yeah, that's an interesting bird for sure.

[A]

Massive platform. We had two or three. No, we had three on one target. We did a rest over day. So we come in at night, we try to pretend like we exfil and then we keep everybody. The assault force in the compound were instantly compromised. So then it turns into Spectre gunship on station daylight because we're. We're about to get lit up.

[B]

Which they don't like.

[A]

Yeah, they don't like that. That's the only thing that saved us. And then it's like, you know, we're all on stand to just like basically on the perimeter wall. And they bring in the MI17s at night. Load up the Rangers, load up the unit guys. We get on it, go to fly away. And the troop Sergeant Major Johnny across from me is looking at me, he's like. And he looks in the back and he's trying to get my attention. And then I sit next to him and he yells, he's like, where are the other helicopters? And so I run in the crew chief and I can't say the name of the plot. I don't want to say the name of the organization that's flying it. And he says, I don't know because they don't have connectivity. It's like they rigged a Russian helicopter, modified it because we didn't have 1/60, we didn't have enough assets.

[B]

Were you being flown around by Blackwater?

[A]

No, I'll tell you offline. You know, it is okay. So we land and when we get off the helicopter, the other two helicopters are missing. And so the troops are. Major Johnny thinks they got shot down. And we're like, what happened? They go to take off. Both of them have mechanical failures because of the load on exfil and have to auto rotate to the ground. Both of them. Johnny makes me and three other guys go out with this unit and we go to a Russian MI17 scrapyard to pull parts, cross load them into. What's the One, the Osprey. They flew into Ospreys from Kandahar, picked, picked some of the guys up. We didn't go. It was some of their mechanics. And flew over the mountain range. This is from Kunduz to Maza Sharif. Land in Maza Sharif. Repair. I think they can't repair both of them. They could only repair one. They get one off the ground, the rest of the guys load, and then they drop a JDAM on the third. The third helicopter. And I was like, yeah, that's sketchy.

[B]

Very Iranian rescue.

[A]

Yeah, it was wild, dude. And that MI17 was scary to fly in, especially on final.

[B]

Yeah, those are older but proven aircraft for sure.

[A]

The blitz is on the outside or the bladder.

[B]

I wasn't paying attention at that time. For sure.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it was wild. So you. You guys use those on your rotation?

[B]

Yep. I don't actually know who was flying them up front, though.

[A]

What color were they? Just white.

[B]

Tan, I think ours desert is bow

[A]

fled green and tan.

[B]

Like rattle canned or professionally painted legitimately.

[A]

Rattle can like saw the guys out there. Rattle canning was awesome. That was a cool trip.

[B]

Damn. What's new in the world? What have you been up to?

[A]

Well, I got Philcraft back, and that was partly thanks to you and their. Their inability to make money.

[B]

There was nothing in there. That was thanks to me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Your vote counted.

[B]

I had to vote to remove you from the company.

[A]

I know. I know that. But I would have voted to remove. I actually signed the paperwork to remove myself because I knew the circumstance. I mean, it was dire. I mean, I was like the situation.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I was obviously very quiet about all of this, but. Yeah. You had put me on the board of Fieldcraft, I think, the year before that. And so I kind of had an inside track as to what was going on. There was no other choice to make, unfortunately, based off the. The public optic of what was going on. And it actually freed you up. That sucked. You didn't get kicked out, though. I've heard you say on some podcasts you got kicked out.

[A]

No, I got. It was. Well, one. It was self selected because I could have fought it legally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I also was told. I mean, look, what you just said is the fact I could not fight in court.

[B]

No.

[A]

And be part of the company at the same time, in fact. So it was a blessing in disguise.

[B]

Let me tell you how not fun it is to officially submit a vote to remove one of your best friends from the company that they created.

[A]

Yeah. And that was tough. I know it was Tough. But then you voted me back in. Kind of.

[B]

Not really, because I think once that happened and Fieldcraft went the way that it did and it folded, which it had to. No, I had no hand in anything other than that. Other than signing stuff, saying, I agree

[A]

with the path for acquisition or for dissolvement.

[B]

Dissolvement, yes. The acquisition, I was not consulted on. I just. Because at that point, it was outside of. You know what I mean? Like, once it's dissolved, my role in that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I assume to some degree that you probably were at least looking at. I mean, there's some valuable things associated with that. An email list of multiple hundreds of thousands of names. Incredible amount of that. The social channels, all that stuff. I assumed that that would probably be the case, but I didn't have a hand in it coming back to you. I had a hand in it ending, I guess, unfortunately.

[A]

But, yeah, and that was. That was tough. Evan was actually on the. On the board at the time.

[B]

He didn't make any of the calls, though.

[A]

No, he. He had his own things to deal with.

[B]

I just don't think he could reach the phone on the table. But

[A]

that's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's growing up a little bit.

[B]

That was rough, man.

[A]

Yeah, it was rough.

[B]

It was rough because I knew more than most people of what you were dealing with, but also not enough, nor was it my place to ever speak about it. So it's. People hit. Well, why aren't you saying anything about Mike and this? I'm like, first off, eat a dick. All the dicks you can find.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And anybody who was fighting their way through what you were working your way through would have asked for only one thing, and that would have been time for you to present the actual facts of the case itself, which in the modern era, nobody seems to have a. An interest in doing, which sucks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those people who were the heaviest on that bandwagon, if anything like that ever happened to them, they'd be screaming at the top of their lungs. Wait, it's not true. Let me tell you my side of the story. Well, some. You weren't even able to tell your side of the story.

[A]

No.

[B]

Because you were incarcerated, Mike. What was your prison name? Did you hold on to people's pockets?

[A]

I've never told so many people so fast my background.

[B]

Did they even care? Did they hold on to your pockets?

[A]

They did care.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Well, it didn't help that the first person who I ran to, the first corrections officer I ran into, and my dad retired from corrections after the military, so he was A military police officer, combat arms guy transitioned into Department of Corrections and did that for, like, ever. He was like a detective at the state prison in Florida. And I've said that. So I think there was like a. You guys are like, my old man. Like, I grew up in this kind of environment. And the first guy walks up to me, he's like, hey, man, thanks for your service. And shook my hand. Like, I'm in an orange jumpsuit. And he's shaking my hand, telling me, thank you for everything I've done. And he heard the story about Vinnie, and he. He has so much respect for me. And as soon as I went into lockup with these guys, Ms. 13, dude, big shout out to the guy with a.380 round lodged in his neck. And I had these dudes doing yoga. I had them doing breathing exercises. And we were talking about our kids because these dudes were hard up and, like, mean mugging each other. And I'm like, oh, there's a hierarchy here. It's like. It's like a tribe. And when I told them my background, one of the dudes in the lockup, which was like, five, seven guys, recognized me. And he goes, holy crap. And. And I even get chills now because it. When he recognized me, all the other dudes were like, really? And then all of them settled down. The anxiety. They all had. They were like, so what happened with this? And. And it was like story time with Mike. It was like a podcast. It would have been the greatest podcast on the planet, but I had these guys, like, I was crying over my kids. They were contemplating their life decisions and going, what am I doing with my life? And I'm like, yeah, dude, what are you doing with your life? And I knew. There was a part of me knew that what was happening was temporary, but I didn't know if it was going to be permanent because. Because it could have very easily turned permanent. In fact, I was probably a couple seconds away from their decision to go. Just keep them in there until it's all said and done. Now, that, for me, would have took a couple months. It took 55 days. I remember every hour of every day before.

[B]

Is that how long you were in there for?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I was only in there for. I was in there for seven days.

[B]

It's the rookie numbers.

[A]

I know, man. You gotta join me sometime.

[B]

Did you get a shiv?

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

Good. Prison purse.

[A]

Yes, of course. I think that's the move.

[B]

You're supposed to either beat somebody up or get a Shiv or both. That's what they say on tv.

[A]

Do both.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's the best cover. All.

[B]

But you don't know how to fight.

[A]

I don't know how to fight. I know I could box. I don't know how to do Jiu Jitsu anymore.

[B]

I. Well, why did you just say anymore? Because you've never actually trained Jiu Jitsu.

[A]

I. I have started many times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I've been. Ended up injured. Like, I'm. I'm actually off the injury. I'm. I'm leaning out a little bit. I've actually lost a little bit of weight.

[B]

I don't think so. But £5. Since when?

[A]

How much do you weigh right now? What's your weight?

[B]

I have no idea. I don't get on the skill. I go off on my clothes fit. Which they fit fine. What's the. What's the value of getting on the scale? I get it if you have a weight loss goal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I also don't want to nerd out over just a number that's going to give me more additional anxiety. I'm gonna go ahead. My mom tapped out with that.

[A]

When I got off a TRT, I dropped like 10 pounds and I feel a lot better.

[B]

Yeah. You're probably on too high of a dosage. Or maybe you didn't need to be on trt. I legitimately got my endocrine system checked, and it was an absolute nightmare.

[A]

Yeah. Your numbers were like single digits.

[B]

No. Now you're making things up.

[A]

I thought you told me single digits.

[B]

No. 4. No, that was.

[A]

That was Brent. Brent recently told me that. Single digits. What was yours at?

[B]

High twos, I think.

[A]

Which is. Which is pre pubescent teen.

[B]

It's hard to say. What I never had was a test when I was younger to see where my baseline was. From my understanding, some people trend lower, some people trend higher. 1100 might be normal for somebody who had a higher level in their life. I don't know what my baseline was. I know I felt like shit. And it's at least helping with that. I will tell anybody considering being on trt, it's not magic.

[A]

No.

[B]

It's not a. It's not a. And everything is better. It takes you a long time to figure out the dosage. It doesn't. It's. You're not going to be a superhuman. I don't look superhuman. I can't perform superhuman. I recover better than I used to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm appreciative of that. I can still continue to Train. The mental clarity is a little bit there, but a lot of that, too is diet and just prioritizing rest as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not. I know a lot of people look at it like, oh, it's the easy button. I got to hit that one. It's not that it doesn't do the work for you, as you know.

[A]

Let's talk about drinking, because I did a post recently and a lot of dudes slid in my dms, which is normal, but they had a lot to say. That happens every day.

[B]

What was the post?

[A]

So I did a post on basically stating that one, I drink alcohol before. And I think me and you are in the same kind of social climate where, like, you'd have a drink every once in a while, a glass of wine, a whiskey, and a rock. But I. I really found that after I began, especially where it disconnects that connection between any type of addiction, it just gets rid of that thought or idea completely where you have a craving for something. You don't have any cravings or anything. Like, you. You don't.

[B]

You don't. You don't want for anything.

[A]

No, no, it's not for anything. It's literally for vices. Like these things that you know are bad for you. Like, I didn't crave sugar, I didn't crave coffee, and I didn't crave alcohol. Since then, I just crushed some amazing cold brew at your brcc and I partake. But I have the idea of alcohol makes me nauseous. And so it's easy for me to say I don't drink alcohol anymore. But what I've realized over the last year of not drinking at all is the profound benefit I've gotten from it. I don't feel like crap after I drink. When I drink, I'm not seeking anybody's approval. So I just drink what I want. Right. Because I'm always, oh, he's drinking. So, you know, JT's drinking. I should drink with him. Right. And then the overall cognitive benefits of not being clouded or fuzzy and people. I don't deal with it like an addiction because I really don't drink a lot. But there was absolutely no benefit. And so I did a video saying, look, there's you. Do you. But here's my experience, and it talks about the military and how people destroyed their careers over alcohol. How when I was in the CIA, they dedicated entire shipping containers just for booze and social hour where I would have to babysit case officers because they were getting wasted. And I have to be like, look, you've had enough. If I have to come get you and you're inebriated, I can't get you off the target. Stop drinking. Like I would have to have those conversations with grown men and women. And we've talked about it before, but I want to get your, your thoughts on it. What do you think about alcohol overall? And are you still drinking? Because I feel like you haven't been. I haven't seen you drink in a long time.

[B]

I mean, I think I had two drinks over the 4th of July weekend. Every once in a while I'll have a glass of wine with Leah. I think what's important for people, I think any broad statement like that is always going to get pushback because the more broad you are, the less accurate you are. I think what's important for people to understand is their why. Why do you drink? What do you get from drinking? Because let me ask you this. The way you feel about drinking now, I'm going to guess. And then the things that you mentioned have a lot to do with the phase of life that you are in right now, for sure. I bet like myself some of the. In my 20s and maybe even early 30s with some of my best friends, I had some of the most enriching, fun filled, hilarious experiences with them involving alcohol. I was never addicted to alcohol and I chose when I wanted to participate. For me, I'm a little bit more introverted. So it's a social lubricant. It can open up that layer of. And I'm not making an excuse for alcohol. I'm talking about only myself here. It can open up that conversational element a little bit more, just maybe more comfortable being around people that you don't know. Just that literally just the social lubricant aspect of that. People have to make the decision on their own. I'm thankful for some of the experiences that I have had in my life when I was drinking. But in the season of life that I'm in right now, when I'm looking at probably the tail end of the lap around the track, the halfway point point or approaching the halfway point, it doesn't serve me as well because I feel a lot of the same things. You can feel the residual impact from it and the cost benefit ratio has changed and that's okay. And I think people need to determine that for themselves. It's the why are you drinking? Because you can't control it? Are you legitimately addicted to it? Are you drinking because you feel like you have to? Are you Being pressured or do you have a healthy relationship with alcohol, guys? I think that you can. Yes. There's no positive benefits, truly, I think from a physiological and not a doctor, but from a physiological basis. I doubt there's any medical benefits from that. But everything in life is a risk cost benefit ratio. A lot of the stuff that we did wasn't beneficial for us in the long term, but we prioritized that experience over getting a full night's sleep. And I think that's okay as long as you can manage it and it's not managing you.

[A]

Makes sense. I, I think though, especially the, the, the analysis of the investment in drinking and at our age, what it kind of does detrimentally to our health. Like in my 20s, I could.

[B]

There was no hangover.

[A]

There was nothing.

[B]

Leah has two cocktails and she'll be on a three day journey of like, she's like the crab shit in my mouth again and found me last night. I mean, age is a real thing, man. It's. It's a different phase in a different season of life. You know, if there's. Michael, will you pull up the. The alcohol industry right now is getting their shit pushed in.

[A]

Yes. Cbd.

[B]

Yeah. Michael, pull up the. I don't know what the Google term would be to find this, but the difference in alcohol consumption via sales in the last. Call it 10 to 20 years.

[A]

I think it's 20 plus percent. It used to be.

[B]

I think it's down like 65%.

[A]

Wow. So it used to be 40 billion a year in revenue. Tax revenue. About 28 to 30 billion of that would be from the states. The states combined. That's ABC stores. Yeah. And then the rest was from the federal government. But that's down. Yeah, profoundly down.

[B]

Huberman actually asked me and he, he said, he said, I cannot believe that I'm about to ask this question on this podcast, but do you think there is benefit for younger people to have exposure and experiences with alcohol? Oh, and I had to look at it through the lens of my own life.

[A]

I mean, as like the social lubricant's a good point.

[B]

Can you make decisions that can destroy your life and career? Yes. Would I trade some of the experiences I have with my friends? No.

[A]

I know, man.

[B]

So again, I'm not here to advocate either direction. It's a use with caution, understand your why and actions have consequences. So you need to be able to control that and you can't blame it on anybody else. It's. Yeah, I don't, I don't know, man. It's a tough one. This season of my life. It doesn't serve me well, but I've had a healthy relationship without having trouble finding a chart. Oh, gosh. It's dropped 54, the lowest in 90 years. Spending at retail shops has fallen by an average of 5%, though bar sales have seen a slight increase as venues pivot to mocktails. All right, it's fair enough. Which is just a non alcoholic. That's weird. Down 54% the drinking rate. But spending at retail has only fallen

[A]

by 5% through bar sales. A slight increase has been used. Pivot to mocktails. Yeah.

[B]

Which is just a non alcoholic cocktail.

[A]

Yeah. What I find interesting is the GOP one thing where Geo. I thought GOP one was a replacement for it because people are getting healthier. No, it. It reduces the cravings of alcohol, which is wild. Which, you know, I. I began, for example, like, I like you talk about, like the social experiences. When I ripped into Africa one trip, we went to Germany for Oktoberfest and I was a team sergeant. Me and my, my cell leaders and one of my medics. I said, look, guys, we're only in Germany for a short period of time. Let's go out and enjoy Oktoberfest. Because it's an actual legit thing. Right. They take this seriously here. And we partook and it was so fun.

[B]

Did you wear lederhosen?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

No, you didn't?

[A]

What is that?

[B]

That's the weird leggings, I think.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

Is it the white froofy, frilly. Michael, pull up a picture of Oktoberfest.

[A]

The big mug?

[B]

No.

[A]

What is it? What are you talking about?

[B]

But first off, why did you say yes if you don't know what it is?

[A]

I thought you meant the stockings. Yeah, yeah, that. Yeah, yeah. I didn't wear that. But I wore. I wore.

[B]

You did say yes.

[A]

No. The people around, see that girl right there with the women's outfit? Everybody was wearing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they were about 100 pounds heavier than me.

[B]

Men's Edelweiss lederhosen. I know what I'm adding to car for Michael's Christmas gift.

[A]

He would look handsome in that. Just saying. You should do an Oktoberfest episode and you should wear that. That would be fun.

[B]

I don't really have a deep tie to Oktoberfest.

[A]

Lederhausen. So let's talk about this, because this is coming out after this episode.

[B]

Yes. This will be out Monday.

[A]

So I could ask you about the post reflections of that episode.

[B]

Sure. I mean, I haven't. I've had less than 24 hours to post. Reflect on it, but go ahead.

[A]

So. So you. We. We talked about o' Neill's podcast and kind of the controversy, and I didn't realize the extent of these controversies because I've been living under a rock, which I'm very thankful for, for the last year. But when I talked to Brent Tucker, I didn't even realize there was a whole thing between Brent Tucker and o'. Neill. Yes, very bad. I didn't realize. I know it was a podcast, but I didn't know it was actually. Brent Tucker was part of that whole

[B]

podcast, and he is currently in a lawsuit with Rob.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not with Rob. He's on the. I don't know how you are supposed to say that correctly. There is a lawsuit that is involving Brent and Rob currently and some other podcast hosts.

[A]

But it's not just Brent. Right. It's a whole bunch of people named.

[B]

Not a whole bunch. I think maybe three or four.

[A]

Okay. So I found out about that with Brent when I was in Florida with him. So I was like, oh, my God, I didn't realize it was. That was the thing. Anyways, we talked about on a Neil last podcast, and you had some reflections, and we talked about how Matt Bissonnet and Rob should be in the same room. Do you think that's after you're talking to Bis? Is that feasible to kind of just get this stuff out there and work through it without the legal drama and all the things that are going on? And, Frank, can you frame out what business? I mean, because I really don't know.

[B]

I don't think their lawyers would allow them to do that, for one, with active litigation going on.

[A]

Oh, so there is active litigation between Bis and.

[B]

Well, Rob is in litigation with Brent over. And this is. I am not repeating verbatim what I underst. This is what I understand it to be. Brent did. I believe multiple. At least one. But I believe multiple episodes covering the narratives that surround. Essentially, the deviation in the stories occurs at the second floor of the residence and what happened beyond the second floor into the third floor. And the key piece in it is as dumb as this sounds. Who shot and killed Osama bin Laden? From my understanding, listening to Matt yesterday, sitting where you were sitting, talking about the debrief that was audio recorded. The debrief that was audio recorded based off what Bis said, I was not there. I have not heard the recording. Is that when the debrief went down, the point man and the point man alone described actions that took place after the threshold between the second and third floor, meaning he took the substantial actions that the success of the operation was based upon. Rob has.

[A]

Which was not Rob and not Bissonnet.

[B]

Bissonnet has never claimed to kill bin Laden. Bissonnet has claimed that he was in a place where he could have seen what happened, and that that story deviates from the story that Rob tells. He doesn't say that specifically. He doesn't say, this is my story and this is Rob's. What he says is, this is what I saw. Do with it what you will.

[A]

And he wasn't the point man. So we're talking about a man who's unnamed, unknown, who's never.

[B]

It doesn't want to be named and doesn't want to be known. And I'm not going to ever pull on that thread because I can respect that. That what, in my understanding what Brent discussed in his episodes was what is supported by the debrief. If the debrief, which, again, I wasn't there, didn't hear the audio recording. If the debrief is the point man talking about the actions that he took and nobody else interjected and said, no, that's not what happened. I was the one. If it was the point man talking and only the point man. What Rob is suing Brent for is Brent essentially saying that the official debrief is true. And what he is extrapolating from that is that what Brent is saying is that Rob is not the person who killed Osama bin Laden. Those are other people's words. That's what I believe the origin of the story is actually about.

[A]

Wow. Because. And Rob, on this podcast for the first time, said that story that they told with their heads together, that they said was the factual account of what took place was not true.

[B]

He said that they created a story for the debrief to provide top cover for the ground force commander.

[A]

That seems weird or difficult to comprehend. One, why you would do that. But two, how to contest that when you have the facts being the official count? Because we're saying the official count is the facts. And to. To get off that narrative, you'd. He has to say it's a lie, which he said. I mean, he said it here, I think, the first time, and now. And then. And then Bissonette is backing the official account, or he's saying that what Rob is saying.

[B]

Bissonnette, again, I can't speak for Matt, but my understanding of it was. And Michael, you were in the room. Wes, you were in the room. Correct. Me if I'm wrong. And my assessment is this. He is saying that the official debrief, the one that was recorded, is in line with what he saw in the physical evidence.

[A]

Wow. Okay. And then. And then Bissonnet. Look, Bissonnet's book is a. Is a really good book.

[B]

So no Easy Day is the first one. No Easy Day, written by Mark Owen, supposedly.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Matt Bessened. No one knows for sure.

[A]

No one knows.

[B]

Except they found that out in about 12 hours.

[A]

So what is the conflict with this book? Because which book?

[B]

So he's done three.

[A]

So the. Oh, I didn't know that.

[B]

No Easy Day was the first one. What was the second? I know this one is no Easy Way. What was the second one? Michael, can you just pull up Matt or Mark Owen or Matt Bissonnet Books?

[A]

Not the same publisher.

[B]

I imagine he is self publishing the third one.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

He did not like the feedback he got from his publisher, so he's deciding to do it on his own, which could work really well in his favor.

[A]

No.

[B]

No Hero. Okay. Yeah, that's right. So no Easy Day was the first book that came out, 2012, which was kind of the beginning of the unraveling of his personal and professional life. His words, not mine. Again, I'm paraphrasing. The no Hero book that came out in 2014. And then no Easy Way is the book that is coming out. I think he said they're starting to ship on two days from now. One day from now. So the eighth.

[A]

He looks great for being 50. Just saying that, like, throwing that out there. I had no IDEA he was 50.

[B]

Well, first off, what picture are you looking at?

[A]

No, I've seen him. I just saw him post that. He was on the cleared hop and. No easy day, 2012. Where were you in 2012?

[B]

I was at trade debt. The training detachment on the west coast had gotten back from that last Team 3 deployment. I was in the process of the PEB MEB submission. I was getting all the paperwork done.

[A]

Going for an enlisted officer.

[B]

No, no. PEB. Physical Evaluation Board, medical evaluation. I got commissioned in 2008. I was submitting my package for medical retirement at that point. At a training command. I was a. What job was. I was an operations officer there. Yeah, Operations officer.

[A]

Yeah. I was a op sergeant at that time at E8.

[B]

God, I would have made you salute me so many times.

[A]

I would have did it once and just got it.

[B]

I would have had you leave the office and come back. Mike, go grab that for me.

[A]

Come back Respect the rank. No Easy Day is the book that has all the controversy behind. Right. And. And why is that? Because it's.

[B]

Well, it was the first. And again, we didn't specifically speak about why he thought it was. But from an outsider's perspective, I would say one, the biggest thing is he did not seek publication review, which is a huge.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Obviously he agrees with that.

[A]

Yeah. What was the mistake? Did he just kind of.

[B]

He received or he retained counsel who told them that he didn't need to do it. You know, sometimes it's good to get a second opinion. Hindsight 20 20. Right. No, time Machine. So it is what it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He got. He got counsel associated with that. His counsel was actually the same attorney for the guy who wrote Black Hawk Down.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And so he thought in Mark Bowden. Yes. And so he thought that. And probably reasonably so, that if he had, you know, if he had worked with authors in this space before, he probably knew what he was talking about. So it was. I would say it was a couple things. One, no pre publication review. And two, it was the first record, public facing record of that operation, really, that went into it at any level of depth that broke the news, for lack of a better term, even though it was a couple years later.

[A]

Was he on active duty at the time?

[B]

No, I was under the assumption that he was as well. He had made the decision to get out before starting writing the book.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

So he was out.

[A]

Okay. So. And then he did it under the Mark.

[B]

Mark Owen, which lasted, I think, less than one business day.

[A]

Wow. Before it was leaked.

[B]

Well, before they figured it out. One of the things he didn't change in his origin story was the small town from Alaska that he was from, which is.

[A]

Where is it on there? A wrangle.

[B]

Yeah. So I don't know how many team guys have come from there, but let's say it was six. You're gonna figure that one out real fast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And then it kind of unwound from there.

[A]

So he had it. So is it the government sued him and then made him pay back all the royalties or the money he made on the book?

[B]

Oh, you're gonna have to look this one up, Michael. I don't know the exact mechanism of that. So I thought. So he did give all the money

[A]

back for the book that he made

[B]

for the no Easy Day.

[A]

For no Easy Day.

[B]

Okay. And the reason he said, again, his words that he used yesterday, not mine, were he is writing this book. No Easy way to pay off the money that he owes the government. I thought he owed the irs. It's the doj, Department of Justice. So initially, I believe they came after him for felony charges, then misdemeanor, and then he entered into a settlement with them to pay them back. I'm not sure where he got the 1.5 from.

[A]

He agreed to a settlement in which he acknowledged breaching duties and forfeited 6.6 million.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. So he gave that back. This other money. I don't know necessarily where it stems from. I don't know where the DOJ came up with that figure, but that is the agreement that he.

[A]

So there's another figure. So he paid back that money. Correct. And then he had to pay back another sum is paying back. And then.

[B]

And that's why I thought for some reason this was associated with the irs. He corrected me. Is not with the irs. He was able to say he's like, I always pay my taxes. Always did this stuff. It's with the doj. Wow.

[A]

So that was a criminal kind of prosecution. Obviously, that was FBI. I mean, I imagine he said it

[B]

started felony, then down to misdemeanor, and then the settlement came after that. So I don't know the. The specific answer.

[A]

So he wrote the second book two years later in 2014.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So he. He. This obviously didn't happen until 2016. So he wrote that second book. Is he having to pay back the second book because he didn't get the second book reviewed?

[B]

I don't know. We did. We did not actually talk at all. I don't even think we talked about the second book. Not even for a sentence.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Second.

[A]

He.

[B]

Fast learner. I thought the 125 was. He spent some of the money. Yeah.

[A]

So it was the reason.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So he.

[B]

Oh, well, I don't know if you know this. Attorneys aren't free.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think he. That's where it came from. It was attorney and some of the money was, in fact spent. So it's. It's the delta between the two.

[A]

What do you think? Because. So I talked to Brent about this and. And I've talked to other people about it recently about this. This whole world of veteran stuff. And what I've noticed about, like, I think there's pockets of us. Right. Maybe it's geographic. Maybe it's just how we've linked up. Like me, you and Evan, for example, are really close. J.T. matt. We're all really close. We don't. There's no drama. Right. That we've ever seen like this. And you see it coming from the Navy. I've seen it now last year, coming from the Army. What do you think about all that drama? Because you've been good at staying out of drama overall. Does.

[B]

Do you.

[A]

I mean, you're a former Devrou guy. When you see two guys.

[B]

Way more of my career out of that place, though, than in that place. I spent the minimum amount of time there.

[A]

Yeah. But when you see guys from the command period that are sitting in the same chair.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just in different time times going head to head over something that I feel like needs to just be a conversation. And I know how lawyers work because I've been dealing with them. They're incentivized by going through a litigation process because they make more money and obviously there's legal parameters and issues. But when two men sit down and they work out these things, do you feel like that's something that needs to be done or is likely never to happen? And how do you feel about it from a Navy perspective? Because, dude, it's ugly. And I see it and I know we talk about it because I want to understand it, because I don't understand the mechanics behind it, but I feel like it's something we should just be able to work out or talk about

[B]

in an imaginary world where I could get both of them to sit down and have a conversation, I don't think either of them would deviate from what they have publicly said. So I don't think there would be a change in either person's perspective. There is two ways that I think you could get to a final end state. Neither of these are going to happen. If the official debrief is correct and it was the point man voicing his actions and only that that person could come forward and put it to bed. It's not going to happen. Totally respect that.

[A]

You know that it's not going to happen because they said it's an assumption.

[B]

It's just an assumption.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. It's an assumption. I don't know the individual. I've heard the same rumors about who it was as anybody else. Don't know the person. Leaving it at that. No interest, again, in pulling the thread on bringing that person forward. Respect their decision to remain in that place. The other option is the Navy comes forward and they handle it and they say, listen, this is the official record. This is what we have, the document to show that. And it either aligns with neither of their stories or more so with one of them. And that would be the most final way to do so. The Navy will never do that either. Today's episode is brought to you by Brunt. And I've talked about this brand quite a bit. My daughter needed new boots for her new welding job. Where'd I go? Bruntworkwear.com and not only do they make footwear, they make clothing for the person out there working. You can head to bruntworkware.com and go check out everything that they have to offer on your own time. Because right now what I want to talk about is pretty much a ridiculous giveaway. Their Brunt Potty of Gold Sweepstakes. Yes, I said that correctly. It's $50,000, which is a crap ton of cash, pun intended. From now until September 18th, one lucky winner is walking away with 50 grand. Head to bruntworkware.com to enter. Entering is completely free. Just create a Brunt account or log into the one that you already have and you can start earning entries. You can get even more entries by following Brunt on social, subscribing to their emails and texts, or by picking up some new gear. And you can earn extra entries for every dollar you spend through September 18, 2026. As I mentioned, Brunt is often known for their boots and workwear. But let me tell you the wildest part about this company. They actually let you wear the boots to work before you decide if you want to keep them or not. Real job site day is not just walking around in your house and if they're not right for you, you can send them back for a full refund. That's a 100% risk free trial. And again, don't forget they offer a full range of high performance gear built for tough jobs. For a limited time, listeners can get $10 off at Brunt when you use the code cleared hot at checkout. Just head to bruntworkware.com using the code CLEAREDHOT and while you're there, enter the Brunt Potty of Gold Sweepstakes. For your chance to win $50,000. Again, limited time, go to bruntworkware.com use the code CLEAREDHOT so you're gonna get your $10 off. And while you're there, just sign up for the Potty of Gold Sweepstakes. I would sign up for that just based off the name back to the show. I think they would view that as too much of a calculated risk and a look behind the curtain because there'd be real hard follow up questions like why are you waiting to do this until you're forced to do so because of public outcry, which there Isn't really a public outcry. Most people, the vast majority of people, give precisely and exactly zero fucks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About who killed bin Laden. They're just stoked that he's dead.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which it was a huge victory for the United States for that to happen. Everything that comes after that, I would say personally diminishes that to a degree. Or to the people who really invest themselves in it or pay attention, which for clarity, is a microscopic group of people, but the microscopic group of people that care about it and that are talking about it probably have a vast influence over very young, impressionable minds that might be considering military service in the future. I also think that it has real world consequences beyond the potential influence. I think that when something like the strike in Venezuela where CAG launched from naval vessels, which should have been the purview of Dev group, and I have no understanding because I wasn't invited at all, nor should I have been to the planning or why that happened. But I would imagine that senior military planners, at least to a degree in their head, are thinking, okay, if these are equally capable units, which one is less of a gamble of things coming off the rails on the tail end than the other? And they have examples of things that they can point at, which I think, to a degree influences that. I think it has cascading downstream consequences to senior military leaders. That is an assumption. I have zero proof of that. But I think that that would be something that is discussed at some level. I don't understand the drama. Having said that, I was never involved in an operation like that, so I don't know what that feels like. I don't know.

[A]

Well, you were involved in Jessica lynch raid.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, that's. That was.

[A]

I mean, that was old drama.

[B]

Not really. The drama from that was the story that got spun from that while we were still overseas that she fought to her last. I mean, she was actually used to.

[A]

She was used.

[B]

She was used.

[A]

Yeah. It wasn't her fault.

[B]

No. And I've had her on the podcast and it was fascinating. She had never talked with somebody who was on the other side of that. And I feel terrible for the way that she was basically propagandized. I remember people talking about she's gonna be the first female Medal of Honor recipient. She fought until the last round and she never even had a chance to fire a round. She got her head cracked on, I believe the seat in front of her to Humvee unconscious. Yes. Which, you know, that shit happens like that. You know, there was what we Thought we were going to potentially face there as an adversary, but at the same time we faced nobody who was there. So, I mean, yeah, there was the risk associated with that and the willingness to accept the risk for a hostage rescue mission, which was the first successful one since World War II. There have been other successful ones since then that were far more dynamic and far more kinetic.

[A]

So the first one in the G wat, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it made the news at the time, but we still were over there for another 80 some days working. So all of this stuff that was out of our hands, honestly, I think it was political, politicized by the administration and people who wanted to show a victory in a place where the whole thing was WMDs and we have to do this and then all of a sudden we can't find those things. I mean, the target we actioned before that was the number one Chembio target in Iraq, which was an agricultural school. That was our best intelligence we had about where they were having these Chembio production and all this stuff. So we went from that to. I think we might have done Lake Thar Thar in between and the Jessica lynch or we went from that to Jessica lynch to Lake Thar Thar and then we surged into Baghdad. So all of that stuff was out of our hands. It wasn't people from the operations that saying anything. One, the social media environment wasn't what it was anyway. But by the time we got home, you know, the government was putting her on the back of Ford Mustangs and putting her in parades and stuff like that. So I feel horrible for her in the way that she was treated and politicized.

[A]

I heard Rogan talk before your podcast with him about the raid and the controversy and was bringing it up and he got a couple things kind of, yeah, missteps on it. But then he had you on and. And everybody in the comments section was like, ask him about. Because he was. He was like, I wonder if it's this. Or I wonder if this happened. And I don't think Joe knows that you were on that. That raid or he didn't. He didn't ask at the time. But I know that when, when I was a young special operations guy, very, very junior, that was an example that led into the Tillman incident where there was a world that existed where the DoD would kind of do these things. And, and they did it with Latrell. I mean, they did it with Lone Survivor. It's like they pulled him out and a lot of people blame him for what he did with the book and the Hollywood. They made him do that. They told him, this is how we're going to do it. This is going to be a good recruitment tool. And he's.

[B]

Take it easy there, Rambo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You ever heard you don't have to follow an unlawful order 100%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not going to remove the agency of the individual's choice and actions and what he's done with it since then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think the military could order you to write a book.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I just think he's obviously compromised. The Tillman thing, mental health, why Pat

[B]

was augmenting us on OAF1. That's how I got to know him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was awesome. Him and his brother Kevin.

[A]

Yeah, that was. Oh, three. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

The initial invasion of Iraq.

[A]

Yeah. That. Yeah. That whole thing was tragic, but there's these patterns and. And what. What. Why I even care about it is because I know a lot of young, impressionable men look at it and they go, why would I ever want to be part of that? And I think there is.

[B]

Well, there's a balance for every one of those stories that are legitimately horrific. And you can use the Tillman one as an example. I am not an expert in the exact details and timeline, but I think it is demonstrably clear that the military knew far earlier than they let on that that was a blue on blue or a green on green. Maybe we would call blue on blue, green on green, whatever. A US Force on US Force. I do believe they tried to hide it with awards and with some pomp and circumstance. And it's horrendous that that family had to go through that. And I can tell you from personal experience that that family is still dealing with the bullshit associated with that. But does that paint the entire picture of the community? Right. How do you find the balancing act between the things that are legitimately everything that people would think that they want special operations to be, and then those other things where. Yep. Those are so far outside of the lines and outside of the bounds of what should have ever happened. And it was a conspiracy from the military to try to cover this up or to change the narrative. We gotta be. We have to be careful with how we speak about both sides of those because neither of them paint an accurate picture of the community or the life associated with that. But people seem to get very sticky on one side of those or the other because it's not all stories like Tillman and it's not all heroic fantasy. Make it through a 20 year career and everything's going to be okay and you're just going to be fine. It's not that at all. It's. It's tough. I mean, we live in a world where people have more access to information who. People have lived those experiences. But I don't care how long you have with a microphone and a video camera on, neither you nor I, given unlimited gigabytes or terabytes or whatever it is, can truly unpack what that life is and the cost of that and the burden psychologically, emotionally, physically. So it's. I worry about the influence sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On the younger generation.

[A]

You had a good conversation with DJ from gbrs on a chat. I think it was a change agent episode.

[B]

He's gonna come on at some point. We just gotta line up the schedule.

[A]

Yeah, I really like that conversation. And one of the things that stands out to me is a lot of guys, like I told you a long time ago, like, I don't need ibogaine. I don't feel like I need psilocybin. It's for sure it helped. But I haven't dealt with maybe moral injury or this idea of. Or not idea. It is post traumatic stress for a lot of guys that deal with this. But there is a segment of our peer group that for sure has not addressed those things. And I mean, you see them, I mean they're, they're going through it. They're going through the difficult times. They're killing themselves. It's happening. I can't remember the name of the master chief and I apologize from devguru who told me a story on Mike Force podcast. Michael, you might be able to pull it up. It's just a Mike Force episode with a senior master chief. You probably know who he is. And he was telling me about two of his studs on a target that were killed. And he told them not to go through the threshold of the door. He like gave him orders.

[B]

He said, was this Jim Foreman?

[A]

Yes, yes, Jim great.

[B]

Mike Coke and Nate Hardy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And he told me like, he says he remembers walking by them and their shirts were pulled up and he could see like the tattoos on their body. And he thought to himself, and he felt guilty for this later, but he thought to himself, like, you idiots. Like you guys are dumb asses. Like, why? Typical team guy stuff. I tell you not to do it. You go through the threshold. And that was the last thoughts he had of them before he moved on and got ready for the next rotation. And so he never was able to kind of process that information. And you. I've noticed that you don't really. I mean, we've talked about certain actions in combat and certain things, but you seem more resilient than other guys. Is that because of experience or is that because of something that you've managed in your own heart and mind? That's. I don't say, I don't want to use this word separates, because I don't think that's the word. But you know what I'm saying, you seem to be more resilient to that kind of things that a lot of guys are dealing with, moral injury wise. But you for sure have seen those and faced those and dealt with those. I mean, you dealt with it with personal friends who have died in freefall stuff that you've talked to me about. Or do you just not. Have you not been confronted with that? Do you not, I mean, deal with it?

[B]

I probably have experience far less than a lot of those people. You know what I mean? When it. And just because you were in that community doesn't mean the experiences apply to everybody equally. I was. I mean, that was my old squadron. I knew Mike well. I turned over departments to him.

[A]

So Jim. You worked with Jim?

[B]

Yeah, Jim is awesome. I worked with Jim at Gold Squadron. He's fantastic. He was at the recce squadron when I was there, but he's the best. And then he was the operations chief for a bit and I worked directly with him. Just cool, calm and collected, man, the whole time. Just, yeah, constant, really good form. I always try to be honest about my career, man. It was average at best. Like I said, I did the minimum amount of time at that command. I would have liked to stay longer, but I got injured right at the four year mark and had to leave largely due to my own actions and telling an E9 what I thought of him at the time, which was not advisable. Those guys saw a lot more combat than I did and a lot more exposure to that stuff than I did. So there's probably a metric of that. I have spent a tremendous amount of time talking with counselors and therapists in the course of my life trying to understand who I am as a person outside of those experiences and why I am the way that I am and what motivates me the way that things motivate me or how can I. Like one thing I am very susceptible to is negative self talk and identifying. For me, it's the tools of recognizing it earlier and reorienting that because you could realize, hey, this doesn't Serve you well, but you can't stop yourself from doing it. Right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The things I say to myself, like I say some fucked up things to you, but I say some really fucked up things to me. Like, I would never say the things to other human beings. The way that I talk to myself in the mirror sometimes, and I don't know why or I should say, I used to be that way. I not perfect at it, but getting better. But that is spending a lot of time talking with people who are experts at this type of stuff. And one of the long pole excuses that I hear from a ton of veterans, and this is an excuse, in my opinion, opinion is that, well, why would I go to a counselor or therapist who doesn't have the experience that I did? They're not going to understand it, and they don't have to understand it. If you can find the right counselor or therapist, they're going to help you understand you and give you the homework to unpack the things that happen to you because they're an expert at between the ears. That's what those people need. I've spent a lot of time doing that. I also, although I'm incredibly proud of the time that I spent in uniform, I never defined who I was by that time in uniform, which didn't necessarily mean that the transition out of the military was simple. I mean, I've reinvented myself many times. Some of it was through aviation, some of it was through skydiving, some of it, you know, starting a business, which, again, for clarity, I clearly know nothing about. It's. It's been a left and right journey this whole time. And I've gotten more comfortable with that as I get older because I realize that all the world's problems have solutions at some point. Like, I'll figure it out. I'm not going to give up. I'll keep maneuvering around and changing the angle and stuff. But I also try not to take myself that seriously either. And I try to remember that the things that I was involved with overseas, I made the best decision that I could in the moment with incredibly limited information. And I remember why I wanted to serve and what my service means to me. And hopefully without other people saying what it means to them, what I hope it provides, and the totality of everybody's service, not just my own. Because an individual's service isn't gonna have an impact largely, I think it helps keep you grounded. And I think not having my identity super deeply tied to that and being able to find a purpose beyond military, which I didn't have initially. There's so talk about identity and so little talk about the purpose. I think the purpose part is harder than the identity part because guys can find jobs. They're infinitely employable. Maybe not in the sectors that they would necessarily want to be, but you can find a job and pick it up. So I think honestly, man, it's just a metric of the work that you put into yourself. And I'm not saying I have done all of the work. I still have my moments for sure. God. Catastrophic lapses in who I wish I was and the way I responded to things earlier in my life. But I don't know if I had the tools necessary. And the military doesn't give you those tools. And here's the thing, they're not supposed to. It's just like people getting out of the military and they say that the TAPS program sucks. Spoiler alert. It does suck. But I actually think that the military should offload all off boarding of military members. And that goes to NGOs and you have like a four month transition where they actually people. The military is good at a couple things. Onboarding you and then using you as a military cog in the wheel. They put almost no effort into the tail end of that. So let's just remove that from them and move that over to the NGO space. There's of course arguments that could be made about the efficacy of that and all those things, but you take some agency over your fucking life. You know, yes. The military didn't give you all the tools necessary to potentially deal with the burden that can come from this job. I got it. That's real. Are you going to do anything about it? Is the question I have for you. Are you happy with who you are right now and the trajectory of your life? Right. They're saying it's okay to not be okay. It's not okay to stay that way. I truly believe it. Nobody can force you to do those things. You have to take agency over your own trajectory in life. I don't necessarily think I'm more resilient than anybody else. Again, it's probably a metric of I was just exposed to less than a lot of the people.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's a combination of everything you just said, especially taking agency. I think also what you're doing too podcast wise and talking to people. It's like Rogan's podcast. You kind of learn as you go from other people's experiences and course. Correct. And I take, you know, we, we. I talk about the sum of Five. Like the five people closest to you, you're the sum of that if you, if you put all their characteristics and traits together. So keep your friends very close because those high quality individuals, you're going to. They're going to bleed off into your characteristics. And a lot of the things that I've done to course correct. I've kind of taken examples from you and other people in our network. Like Evan, who's dealt with. I mean, he actually was going to write a book at one time and decided not to.

[B]

I think he gave the money back.

[A]

He did. He's like, screw this, I'm not doing it. Which is wild. Hell yeah. That was a year process. But the lessons he's learning business wise, we've talked about it like, we don't make those mistakes and we've talked back and forth about certain mistakes and certain ways that we're maneuvering. And I think that's what you should do with a good friend group. My buddy Andy Moore here, who's living a very civilian life. I need civilians in my life to learn from. And a lot of people are closed off and sheltered that way because they're like, I belong to a tribe in a community. It's like, well, that's not your life anymore. That's not your identity anymore.

[B]

So one piece of advice, I always give first responders, specifically law enforcement, but it applies to military as well. Have a social circle that has nothing to do with what you do professionally.

[A]

Yeah. Smart.

[B]

I. I mean, I am as close of friends, close to. As close of friends with people from my military service as I am in the jiu jitsu world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With some people, no overlap whatsoever. Never comes up. Maybe every once in a while like something on the news will. They'll ask a question because it's tangential to the military and they want to ask somebody who might. Some have exposure experience to it. No overlap whatsoever though. And it's super healthy.

[A]

It's awesome.

[B]

Yeah. The people that I know, and I'll use law enforcement as an example that seem to struggle more. There is no gap between their professional social circle and personal. So when they're off work, they're hanging out with people who are at work or on work, that same social circle, talking about the things when they're off work that happen at work. So there is no escape of the merry go round. Yeah, that's tough.

[A]

If me, you and Evan were having coffee, I. Which we've done a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think we've ever talked about the military.

[B]

Why Would we?

[A]

You're talking about business, about family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why would we?

[A]

There's no reason to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's super healthy for you. I, I do. Before we go, I do want to talk about these guys.

[B]

First off, this is my show. You don't get to decide when we go.

[A]

So I'm interviewing you. This is my. This is my podcast. We'll get.

[B]

This is a non paid first off. Why. Why have a holster when you have a pocket?

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Just throw your piece in your pocket. Pocket piece.

[A]

That's a technique, Andy. You could do that.

[B]

Yeah. Be careful.

[A]

He's got invader concepts. Yeah, but they gave you a chest thing.

[B]

So here's a question for you. The bear is coming to get him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why is he pointing the opposite direction?

[A]

That's a good point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe he's killing the bear closest to him and that's the secondary target. The secondary threat.

[B]

Despite it looking, I don't feel like

[A]

this, like it's right on his back.

[B]

I don't feel like that.

[A]

We have to talk to these guys tonight about their, their branding.

[B]

How about you talk to them? They want to do a business deal with you. I'm hard full on business deals right now until I actually learned something about business. It's a chest rig for people who go out in the backcountry. Access, probably, you know it's going to fit. Probably a Glock 10 millimeter, which is a. They make bear specific rounds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Easy access in the back country. A lot of people will go to Chester because it's right there. Yeah. You got to mean that's a Montana

[A]

thing or a rural America.

[B]

I think it's a Alaska. I think it's a bear thing. More than a month, there's that many

[A]

bears in Utah or Wyoming.

[B]

I bet you got some blacks.

[A]

We got some blacks.

[B]

You have. You have to have grizzly.

[A]

They're like pets. We don't have grizzlies.

[B]

Really? Have you ever gone and pet one?

[A]

No, we don't have any browns. You have browns. Do you have brownson?

[B]

Yes, we do.

[A]

Michael, do you have blacks?

[B]

Do grizzly bears live in Utah? Yes, we do. We have both. First off, you better be careful. Somebody might clip that.

[A]

Well, we met. Was it Black Nick today? That's his name. He told me to call him Black Neck.

[B]

I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to call that man Black Dick.

[A]

That's how he's listed in your phone.

[B]

That is what he texted me his

[A]

name as Big shout out to everybody who came out to the black rifle. Coffee Kalispell, 1923.

[B]

Last known wild grizzly killed in 1923. However, comma expanding populations in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem have led recent sites southwest. Yeah, so maybe. I mean, it's a pretty porous border there. But you guys have black bears for sure?

[A]

We have blacks for sure.

[B]

Yeah. And they're not pets. Don't treat black bears like pets. That's really bad advice.

[A]

Yeah, they. They don't just eat berries. They'll eat your face. Don't ever do that.

[B]

Yeah, I think black bears are less likely if you have a surprise, close encounter with them. They might get aggressive. My experience with them is they generally want to avoid humans. Grizzly bears will eat you asshole first.

[A]

Yeah. They don't mess around.

[B]

No.

[A]

We saw a guy who hit an elk on the way here and completely destroyed his vehicle.

[B]

Yeah, it's gonna nuke a car.

[A]

Yeah. Have some, like. I mean, you can't have something in your Camry. I think it was like a Camry or something that got destroyed. What do you got? You've done the book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've done. I mean, you got so much going on. What's the next thing for you? What are you doing next? Like, what's the next. Or you got some trip hunting anything lined up?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Are you taking a break?

[B]

I seem really busy. For somebody on a break.

[A]

You're super, dude. You're all over the place. I've never seen you this busy.

[B]

I don't know if I'm accomplishing anything, though.

[A]

It looks like it. I don't know what it means, but you're all over it. I'm like, oh, that's cool.

[B]

I don't have a big thing on the horizon that I'm really aiming for. I need to unfuck my understanding of business and get some personal stuff sorted, which will happen over. I mean, I know there's a mechanism to do so and a lot of it is just paperwork stuff that I've been waiting on that now I can work my way through the penalties associated with that. So, I mean, that's probably the near thing. But that's not. That's not an aspirational goal. That's just kind of like a life speed bump that I'm gonna have to maneuver through for a couple of months. Man. I'm in an interesting phase. My oldest son is doing well, Got a girlfriend, successful at work. They're pitching to him, teaching him more of a managerial role. My middle son is going to Be a junior down in Bozeman at MSU on a mechanical engineering degree.

[A]

So awesome.

[B]

He's got two paid internships. One of them is at a quantum computing facility which even me saying. Yeah, even me saying that word. I don't even know what I'm talking about. And then my daughter, who just turned 18, she finished a vocational welding program, instantly got hired. She is working for, I don't want to say a defense contractor because they do more than that. And I don't want to necessarily say the exact name of it because I'm not sure how they would feel about it. But she got snapped up and is full time welding now. Monday through Friday, four tens and then overtime on Friday with nothing but. I mean, her first job at 18, 401K. Health care PTO.

[A]

Like vocational.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Technical job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's rad, man.

[B]

So they're all spreading their wings a little bit, which is. Not that it's ever going to remove your parental concern or your parental impact on their life hopefully. But I don't know what's next, man. I don't have anything huge that.

[A]

That feels like. It's nice though, just to take a knee and like kind of settle after the. I feel like you've been going like 100 miles an hour for a long time now. Probably the whole year. I mean, this year has been pretty intense.

[B]

I mean, I could always tighten the screws on stuff and be more efficient at the things that I do. So maybe that'll be the next thing is to do that. I have fallen in love again with aviation, man, with getting back into the rotary stuff. I've only been flying helicopters now for coming up on probably two years. But it's cool. I. I thought I was going to be done with it when I put it down, when I was doing a lot of the fixed wing stuff because I was flying part 135, which is charter operations, which is cool. But you're taking people and their families places that you wish you probably could take yours and oftentimes on holidays as well too. And you need to be there in case they want to move around and stuff. So it was cool. It was great experiences. Those licenses are good for life. I'm not current or competent anymore, but you could always get recurrent if you wanted to. But the helicopter stuff is just cool, man. It's just a really cool tool to unlock Greater Montana as well. So playing around, I don't know where that will ever go. I don't think I'm ever going to start a Business associated with that. It can be a. You know, like essentially the helicopter is itself a marketing tool. That's really all it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

And that's our aspirations with that.

[B]

It's not the type of helicopter for that. I mean it's not hoist capable. I volunteer to fly anytime for search and rescue, anywhere anybody would need it. I mean I can move people. I can move things. I could look for people in things. But there is an organization up here, two Bear that is funded by an individual here in the valley. Completely. They have done over a thousand rescues since they have been operational.

[A]

And it's privately funded and they have

[B]

never charged a dime. Wow.

[A]

Is that the A star? Is that a.

[B]

No, it's a HC145. It is like an new 15 to probably $20 million multi engine turbine. Hel. It's badass.

[A]

And your buddy is flying the. The penetrator, the. The extraction.

[B]

We're talking about Nelson and he definitely flies a penetrator, let me tell you. But. And your hand signals.

[A]

Legs wrapped around the penetrator. That's so that's a bad helicopter.

[B]

Michael, see if you can pull up the two Bear. Two Bear rescue helicopter. They just posted.

[A]

Nelson's done a lot of rescues off of that.

[B]

He's done a lot of penetrators.

[A]

Is he still doing that?

[B]

Yes, I believe so. That's. So that's their old one. That's a bell 429 they just posted on their social media. That is the old one. That's a Bell 429. But I mean you're talking hoist capable. All the sensors up front. I mean that helicopter in itself incredibly capable and. But they have a new one and I wish the paint scheme on it is legit.

[A]

Privately funded.

[B]

Privately funded.

[A]

That's wild, man.

[B]

Sometimes depending on where the rescue is, they have to land next to the non privately funded helicopter and they cross deck people over and you hear a noise and the noise is this Cha Ching. As the bill starts running.

[A]

Michael Gogan.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Is the guy who did it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's so awesome, man.

[B]

Yeah. Michael, see if you can find. I'm looking for it right now. It's on their Instagram, which I think is just two Bear errors. Oh, click on the right hand side the little Instagram symbol. Let's be smart. Enhance.

[A]

What's not awesome is the amount of fatalities this place has because of people.

[B]

Scroll down.

[A]

Being dumb.

[B]

See, that's the top of it.

[A]

Is that Nelson right there? No, it's him in the middle on that left one.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's him in the middle.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Scroll up, Michael. Dang it.

[A]

I feel like this was a bucket list.

[B]

Click the middle one. Yeah, the black one. No, no, no, no, I thought you meant. No, no, down right there. See it? Never mind. So scroll down though. You see the logo of the Two Bear head logo that's on the top of the.

[A]

The root.

[B]

The blade root.

[A]

Oh, that's. That's awesome.

[B]

It's. The helicopter scheme is sick. I'll send a picture.

[A]

Have you been able to do any kind of spotting for them or assisting them in any way?

[B]

Two Bear? No, they have totally different abilities.

[A]

That's that pod. They're running that pod.

[B]

That's the third pod. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, that means again, high hoist capable all. All the things. They have paramedics on board, all that stuff. I have helped out the local law enforcement and search and rescue when they have asked, but I will leave it broad for the privacy of those people involved.

[A]

Got it? Got it. Such a rad deal. And we're going up in it. We're filming a YouTube video for nobody

[B]

said we're gonna Go Fly. We're gonna talk about survival and yeah, we're gonna talk. We don't. We can go fly if you want. I suppose we don't have to.

[A]

No, it's expensive. It doesn't make sense.

[B]

I don't care about that. It's just the content I would love to talk about because this is the loadout. Well, this is real where I live too. So I always have a mechanical kit. Not that I'm a mechanic, but I have. I can solve very simple things. Then I have a med kit. And one thing that Leah has talked about, and sometimes I have with me and sometimes not, is a survivability kit because as you talked about today, large temperature swings, a winter that is real. I still fly in the winter months. You put that thing down. The heater no longer works when the turbines are off. So you could find yourself out there in the backcountry waiting for a bit. I mean, I know the right people to call who have other helicopters that could come get me. But I'd be interested when some of the Fieldcraft Outpost stuff I'd love to figure out. I almost always have a maximum of four people in there and so that leaves the seat directly behind me. I'd love to figure out a way to have all that stuff arrayed there. I mean, if you have a truck gun, don't you need a helo gun?

[A]

We do we'll put that in there.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. And so having all of that, basically they're all non negotiables in the summer months, of course, I pay attention less to the survivability kit, which is stupid. That's an excuse on my part because just because the temperatures are warmer, it doesn't mean you still don't need to be able to source food, water, period of night, all of those things. Right. So I'd be interested to see what we could do with the space available. I wouldn't develop any product lines around it because it's very niche.

[A]

Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah. I think it's. Aviators have asked me, especially stall aircraft.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They have asked me for each.

[B]

Which stands for short takeoff and landing.

[A]

Yeah. They've asked me for these Bushcraft or what are these called? Bush. Bush.

[B]

Bush crafting, I think is building stuff.

[A]

Yeah. That's not bushcrafting. It's.

[B]

Oh, man. If you.

[A]

Bush pilots. Yes, bush pilots, they fly low and slow. And a lot of those guys, I don't think I've talked to one that hasn't had an incident of some kind because of the locations they go into.

[B]

Well, and there's thousands of moving parts. Sometimes you mechanical out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like what you're saying. I have a star Bat as well too. I don't always fly with it, but again, a lot of that is because, you know, the Pelican case is great, but like, where am I going to put this thing?

[A]

It's heavy.

[B]

It is. It is heavy. Not enough to really offset the weight and balance in that thing, but that's all stuff. If you have a system, I think it's better. It's just so much more organized in your mind and, you know, everything is in its spot it's supposed to be in. And especially in a crisis or a critical situation, you know where to go as opposed to your assholes and elbows trying to go in there and get the stuff. So, like, I have a very generic med kit in there. But when you come out with the new, you know, bleeding control kits or vehicle mobility kits. And so I'll just transport that stuff over into that. But yeah, I'd be curious. It's. It's. It's actually still mobility.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just a different medium.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. What we'll do is we'll do the video. We'll get your recommendation. Yeah. We'll put out the post and get everybody's feedback, especially the stall pilots. But rotary wing, especially because you're right. If you break down in Montana in the middle of nowhere, even just waiting for somebody to get to, you could take.

[B]

Depending on the season, you may not make it until like, in the winter months. But you put it down somewhere that is remote, where it's going to be maybe a long vehicle ride to a snowmobile to get to you. Yeah. And hopefully you're flying around in at least some type of commensurate, appropriate outerwear. But, dude, I mean, you turn the heater off in that thing, it gets cold real fast.

[A]

Yeah. So it doesn't. The heater doesn't run if it's on the ground.

[B]

It is taking hot air from the turbines from the bleed air. So it's actually pressurized hot air that it recycles back into the cabin.

[A]

Wow. Yeah.

[B]

That's how most heating and air conditioning systems in aircraft works. You can get standalones, but most of them are based off of bleed air.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm excited to do that video. And I know Andy Moore's not shitting his pants now because he's scared of flying.

[B]

Well, then we're definitely gonna go fly. That's fine. It is acrobatic certified. We can do loops and barrel rolls.

[A]

Yeah. He would love that.

[B]

I don't know how to do any of those things, nor do I want

[A]

to, but we can try.

[B]

But I can. No, we cannot try, but I can appreciate that the helicopter is certified to do.

[A]

So is it really? Does it actually is certified to do that?

[B]

Yeah, it's got a.

[A]

So it can do a roll. Roll out.

[B]

You could do a barrel roll. It's the same helicopter that the Red Bull guys use for acrobatics.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that that was that high speed. I'm thinking like an R44, man. I'm thinking like a. Like a step up from an R4. This is actually a high performance.

[B]

It's a twin turbine. It has two little bird engines in it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

C40BS or two. It was a C240B or something. I don't know what it is.

[A]

What's the time from. You dropped off Bisset in Missoula? What's the time from here to Missoula?

[B]

It was 45 on the way down because we had a little bit of a headwind. 36 on the way back.

[A]

Damn, that's nice.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that would normally be two hours

[B]

easy in a car.

[A]

Nice, dude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's exciting.

[B]

What else you got going on?

[A]

You got a gift for me from mkc?

[B]

I do but you don't get to decide when we're done and when we're done talking. Do you have other things on your schedule that I don't know about?

[A]

No. So long haul supply company people have asked me this. They're like, I don't understand the company.

[B]

Well, what's the tie in with Fieldcraft Outpost as well?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So are they the same? Do they work in tandem?

[A]

Yeah. I'm not allowed to have Fieldcraft Survival because they dissolved it technically. Right. So when they dissolve the company and it's.

[B]

You're welcome by the way.

[A]

Yeah, thank you. So when a company dissolves, the. The assets are up for acquisition and then the IP related to Philcraft Survival as an entity, as an llc are no longer available. But the individual branding assets, like the logo, basically all the IP I'm allowed to have, I got the, I got. I mean they're my patents on certain products. I get the email list and the social media stuff. My whole thing is one. We have a whole group of people who've been watching Fieldcraft for years, a decade. And I started that channel with my. On my cell phone like, and turning around the cell phone on myself, talking about like preparedness. We're gonna get back to those roots. Philcraft Outpost, which is Philcraft's Survival's main channel. I haven't even changed the names and I won't. Of those channels. Phil C. Outpost is the.

[B]

Are you worried that's going to confuse people?

[A]

Well, what they say is I will change it, but for about a year, I'll, I'll leave it for about a year and then once we get back into the flow of things, because they didn't post for six months. I mean, Phil Cross Survival. Yeah. Didn't have content up for six months. Julian, one of my media guys right now is filming three documentaries. Hopefully you'll be one of them. And I know it's going to be difficult around your schedule and you don't.

[B]

Not as busy as you think.

[A]

You don't like to do these kind of things.

[B]

But I do not like to.

[A]

You don't like to do this. So I'm doing stories of survival and, and we did them for Black Rifle Coffee and they were really good, really good stories of survival. The same guy is doing them for me. For Philcraft Outpost we're doing Joe Kent's wife, Shannon Kent, who was killed in a vehicle borne ID in Syria. We're doing John Wayne Walding, who was a Green Beret, who'd be a wonderful podcast guest, by the way. Real humble dude who had his leg shot off by a PKM machine gun. Pinned it to his thigh. This lower leg was shot off at his shin. Tied it to his thigh and stayed in the fight.

[B]

Did they reattach?

[A]

They took it off, I think above the knee. And then he continued to serve. He actually went to. Wind up going to sniper school and doing a whole bunch of stuff as an amputee. One of the first amputees out of a few guys that were still in active duty.

[B]

If you wanted to keep your leg.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you went through the effort to bring it back with you, do you think they would let you. I don't mean reattach. I mean, can I have my leg?

[A]

Can you stuff it and, like, put it on the wall?

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

That would be cool.

[B]

A sous vide. Well, it's yours.

[A]

Formalderhyde in a jar.

[B]

That's weird. That's a big jar. But I'm just saying.

[A]

Pickled.

[B]

It's yours.

[A]

You could do what you could technically do whatever you want.

[B]

I don't think they would let you. I think they're gonna take it from you.

[A]

Yeah. You were shot in the leg, right?

[B]

I was in the hip.

[A]

Oh, damn, that's. I feel like that would be painful.

[B]

It wasn't great. 10 out of 10 don't recommend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't get off track here. I want to know what you can do with your own appendages that you lose. I feel like a good case could be made is pickle it, turn it into a walking stick or something.

[A]

Have a cane. And at the bottom of the cane,

[B]

it's the foot articulating ankle.

[A]

I would like that. I would do that.

[B]

All right.

[A]

If I lost my leg, this is.

[B]

You know, sometimes I lose the battle with internal thought versus external thought. So.

[A]

You said all of that out loud.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Who's the third stories of Survival?

[A]

Third is going to be Clint Emerson.

[B]

Sweet.

[A]

So he was Black Squadron guy, and he's written more books than I would ever write in survival. Eight books total. He's also going to be a content provider. Me and you are going to do a lot of content together, especially wintertime, because winter survival is. Is paramount for Montana because of the things that you guys deal with. And so I'll be back and hopefully teaching a class with some of the. Some of our friends. I think it'd be cool to have. Should we name drop anybody?

[B]

Sure. John Barklow is a guy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Barclo is.

[B]

He hasn't committed to this I'm just spitballing here.

[A]

He worked out of Kodiak, Alaska, and. And basically taught it well.

[B]

He also lives in Montana. Lives in Bozeman.

[A]

Yeah. I didn't know he lived in Bozeman.

[B]

Yeah, he works for Sika.

[A]

Is he still working for Sika?

[B]

Yeah, he's one of the main guys down there.

[A]

I need to get some gear.

[B]

He's got a book coming out.

[A]

Yeah, we've been promoting his book, which we will do because he's. He is the SME. The subject matter.

[B]

Legitimately. Legitimately, yeah.

[A]

And then. And then more content, man. Look, I. I told you a long time ago that I was going to get to a place that you operated in where you were local, you were walking across the street to do Jiu Jitsu, walking down the road to do your podcast and keeping it very close. And I've done that. I didn't. I don't. The roundabout way I did it was catastrophic. But I'm here and that's going to be the new path. Leaning forward.

[B]

Has everything settled legal wise for you?

[A]

Everything's done.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Every. I haven't even told you, but everything's done.

[B]

Can you own a firearm?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Are you sure?

[A]

100%.

[B]

You can touch one.

[A]

Don't. I can't touch one.

[B]

How long until you.

[A]

I mean, I don't want to right now, but.

[B]

How long until you can touch a firearm? Two weeks until I submit another complaint against you.

[A]

I knew it.

[B]

Yeah. Don't tempt me with a good time. That's good to hear.

[A]

Yeah. It's all done.

[B]

That's gnarly. What was flash to bang on that? Two years.

[A]

Two years plus 18 months on that one.

[B]

What do we learn from this?

[A]

Honestly, if it wasn't for my friend group, if it wasn't for you and Evan and very close and my family, my mom, my spouse, my kids. I don't think. I don't think. If I didn't have the support, which many guys who were put in this situation don't have the support, if I didn't have the support, I think it would have been a lot more difficult. And so having that support because you have people you're allowing or willing to get close to you or be close to you, I think is advantageous. And that's something that even when I say out loud, I'm like, I don't really like that, but I've been more open to it. And, you know, I've had conversations with you offline about your situation and you've helped me through, like, don't do this. Don't say this. Do this. Exactly. I mean, the best advice you gave me, at one point, you said, your kids are going to remember that. Don't ever say anything to them negative about anybody, including their mother. And I said, and then you told me some of your experiences, and that stuck with me, and I didn't say a word. And that's helped me advantageously. The biggest lesson learned also is, and I know we talked about this before, and you've talked about it with several guests, including former Navy SEALs, about God and how just getting rooted back into the foundations of my faith have benefited me greatly. And I do a preaching in the Choir YouTube segment every Sunday because it keeps me accountable because I slip and fall off so easily. But just getting back to it, because a lot of guys, mostly guys, depend on that message, and they're like, it's helping me, gives me purpose. And it also gets me more closely connected in staying in my faith, which is beneficial for me, beneficial for my family, because that's how I grew up. That's how I was raised.

[B]

Are you going to start a cult?

[A]

Not yet. We're thinking about it, though.

[B]

You'd be a good cult leader.

[A]

I would be. Okay. The Asian persuasion is beneficial to me because I'm the neutral race. I get along with all races of people because of my neutrality.

[B]

What about Koreans?

[A]

Not Koreans. They hate me. They actually have a name for me. If you're a half breed. They hate half breeds.

[B]

I was going to say. Well, hold on. Is it Koreans and Japanese people that historically have beef?

[A]

My mom.

[B]

Because you just said you love everybody and you're loved by everybody. I think you're lying.

[A]

My. When I was in the Q course in Special Forces training, there was a dude named Fink that's. I'll just give you his nickname because he's still serving. Very senior member of Social Operations now. And Fink was half German and Japanese. And. And my mom, I didn't know this at the time because I didn't know there was Japanese Korean beef because I wasn't schooled up on the whole World War Everything.

[B]

We're talking historical beef.

[A]

Korean war, World War II. Like, historical beef that goes back deep. And she would always say, son, how was training? I said, mom, it was really good. And she goes, did you beat Fink? And I'm like, what do you. What do you mean, beat Fink? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know Fink is your friend, but he's Japanese. Did you beat Fink? And I'm Like, I. I didn't beat him. We're not competing. He's like, you need to beat Fink. And I'm like, what is. What is wrong with. Like, he's a good guy. He's Japanese, you know, we don't like the Japanese.

[B]

Put it down.

[A]

Moment.

[B]

Put it down.

[A]

It was a long time ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

53. I think we ended that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

After the Korean War.

[B]

All right.

[A]

She holds resentments against the Japanese. She won't say it out loud, but I said it out loud for her.

[B]

Yeah. What is. I was gonna ask you this. You're a photography nerd. What is your dream camera? Monetary aspect aside, dream camera.

[A]

For a photographer like yourself, a Leica M6 is about. Well, so I think you have a Leica, right? Yeah. Didn't you have a Porter? Yes, yes. That camera. For anybody who has the money, it's. It's a great expense, but it's probably universally one of the most robust digital cameras. I have a Q3 or Q2 monochrome.

[B]

I have a Q1.

[A]

Yeah, you have a Q1 color. It shoots in color.

[B]

I mean, you can put it in black and white, but, yes, it's designed for color.

[A]

So the Q3, I think it's Q3 monochrome, gives you, like, 30 to 40% more available light and exposure. And it's one of the best black and white cameras ever made in the history of cameras. There's a 35 millimeter called the Leica M6 with a Luminacron, a lens like a 50 millimeter. 50 millimeter lens, high quality glass. The best camera probably ever made. And a lot of photographers would say that, but tack sharp, beautiful photography. And some of the best photographers in the world have shot that. And my inspiration from photography comes from Frank Herd, who was on the Shackleton expedition as their photographer. So these. This ship that, you know, ours, we have the same tattoo artist. What's his name?

[B]

Gabe.

[A]

Gabe. Amazing tattoo artist.

[B]

White and light tattoo here.

[A]

Local. Right. In Whitefish. Very difficult to do. He did the ship Endurance. And Frank Herd went from that to World War II and was a photographer, a combat photographer in World War II. And this happened during the early 1900s, in 1917, where he did these photographs and then winded up being in Africa all over the world, and then actually took photographs in the World War. The Second World War, after World War I.

[B]

Crazy Leica or Hasselblad. Which one's better?

[A]

Laika.

[B]

Those would seem to be the two competing ones. At the top of the heap of monetary restriction is pulled aside so if

[A]

I have a hassle that it's. That is a full frame camera that you shoot looking down into it.

[B]

I know you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah, beautiful camera. And it's for full frame portrait. Full frame landscape shots. Yeah, beautiful photography coming from that. But it's really old school and the tech is old. In fact, the filming industry has taken a substantial turn. Mark Welch, who's a pretty famous photographer, shot most covers of Surfer magazine and his current photographer got me into developing photos. There's not many places in the country now that are doing 120, 110 or 35 millimeter even. So if you get into these cameras, the limitation is on the development of the film.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

So you can get a high speed Leica M6 and then you send it off to a crappy development shop and they just hack your stuff. The best way to do it is do a dark room in your house and actually do it yourself, which is expensive, but it's, I think, worth it.

[B]

Fair enough. You want to go talk mobility but in the air.

[A]

Yeah. Cool.

[B]

Swing by the shop. Oh, hey, hold on. Yep. Here's your gift.

[A]

Oh, is that a real gift?

[B]

It's a real gift. Are you allowed to touch this?

[A]

I'm allowed to touch this one as

[B]

long as it show me something that says you're not going to go to jail if you touch this.

[A]

Michael just got the text before I sent to him. It's on the email.

[B]

I'm going to hand this to you, but if this is violating some type of thing that I don't know, not legally.

[A]

Those are all airsoft, by the way.

[B]

They are.

[A]

Is this the new tactical?

[B]

It is a tactical one.

[A]

I'm excited about this. Dude, they are leveling up. Like this is a level.

[B]

It's a near apple experience.

[A]

Dude, this is wild. Used to be cardboard years ago.

[B]

Yeah, I mean still technically it is cardboard. But don't cut yourself. Those blades are sick. Plus with the custom etched cleared hot logo on the other side, I mean, it's not a big deal.

[A]

You need a first aid kit for having this knife. Apparently he.

[B]

Apparently he gave one to Dana White and then they went to the hospital. I believe that because he opened it with his fingers over the Kydex and just pulled that sucker straight out.

[A]

And this will cut your fingers off. This thing is amazing. Those natural get there. I know we need to convince Josh, which when I say we, I mean you, to do another Phil Craft Outpost edition folding knife. I don't know if he'd ever do it.

[B]

But are you allowed to carry one of those? If the blade is under three inches.

[A]

Give me two weeks.

[B]

I was going to say I need to see paperwork. I don't trust you.

[A]

Delay.

[B]

The trust is broken.

[A]

This is by time this comes out. We're good to go. We're good to go. We'll date this one. Thanks for this, man.

[B]

Yeah. What do you want to close it with? I'll let you close it out.

[A]

No, I. Look, all of the things that we talked about are really important. A lot of guys recently, because they see what I've been going through, I've been pretty vocal about it, mostly on your podcast, have reached out and like, hey, man, I'm going through a difficult time. And I would just say the perfect way to close this out would be listen to some of the advice that you gave and don't be afraid to reach out and get help. I mean, there is. There is no. Look, suicide is a serious thing in our community, but across the spectrum of men and women in this country, and I think. I hate to see it because I see it nearly every week, somebody's posting something about somebody taking their life.

[B]

So I don't know if you know this, but this probably lands even heavier with you. I'm pretty sure that the stat is correct. The Green Beret community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Has now lost more people to suicide than combat operations.

[A]

I believe that wholeheartedly.

[B]

I don't know where the SEAL community is on that, but I guarantee you with enough time, it will be the same.

[A]

It will be close to the same. Yeah. And this is only the beginning because a lot of our peers, some of our senior peers are still serving. Yes. Which is wild to me. That guy Fink, I mean, he's. He's been in the building for 20 years. I mean, it's just wild to think that be encouraged by the things that we're doing because there is purpose to be driven a mission to accomplish outside of your identity in the military. And there's phases to life. I think that that season or that chapter or that way that you put it, there are phases that you're going through that are not tied to your profession or your identity that you think is you. At the time, I thought when I was in the military, I was going to retire on a lawn chair and fish for the rest of my life. And I got out at the age of 37.

[B]

How galactically boring would that have been?

[A]

Dude? That would have lasted a couple days. But just seek the help when you need it. And I do want to say Lastly, I talked to Brent Tucker about a guy that I serve with. I served with him in the unit. He actually pawned off the Afghan partnering unit on me during one of our rotations. And he. He was one of the new guys, and he. He was like, mike can do it. He's a Green Beret. Make him do it. And he successfully did that. His name is. I'll just. I'll just say his. His. His call sign was Swede. And I don't know if the family wants me to put this out, so I just give you his call sign. But. An amazing operator that served his country for a long time and was a superhero. And he passed away. I found out last. I found out with Britt Tucker. He passed away last year in a tragic vehicle accident in his truck with his teenage son at the time who survived. Your dad is a rock star. He was an amazing human being. One of the kindest men I. I knew, but also a warrior. And you're. You're following in big footsteps, and he would be very proud of you.

[B]

Yep. It's pretty good clothes.

[A]

Yeah, man. Cool.

[B]

Let's go talk survivability stuff.

[A]

Let's do it, man.

[B]

Cool. Let's do it.

[A]

Thanks, bro.

[B]

Yep.