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Representative Ryan Zinke - Big Beautiful Bills and Public Land Sales
01:13:40
Ryan Zinke is a fifth generation Montanan who serves as Representative for Montana’s First Congressional District covering 16 counties in western Montana including the cities of Bozeman, Butte, Missoula, Kalispell. First elected to Congress in 2014,...
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- [00:01]
Ryan Zinke
Okay, I got the red smoke.
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Joe Rogan
Sun runs north or south.
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Ryan Zinke
West of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy. West of the smoke.
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Joe Rogan
I'm looking at danger close now. Come on with it, baby.
- [00:14]
Ryan Zinke
Give it to me.
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Joe Rogan
I mean it's clear.
- [00:16]
Ryan Zinke
Hot.
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Joe Rogan
Campaign cleared.
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Ryan Zinke
Hot.
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Joe Rogan
Where do we begin?
- [00:20]
Ryan Zinke
Where do we begin and where do we end?
- [00:22]
Joe Rogan
Mr. Zinke, what in the actual fuck is going on with our government right now? Currently a 900 plus page bill is being forced to be read on the Senate floor, I believe. How is this even possible?
- [00:40]
Ryan Zinke
Well, we can back up. How do we get here? Right? How do you even. How did we get here? Well, some of it is I can tell you 36 trillion reasons why and that's our national debt. And I'll say up front is we just didn't pay attention. And I'm still an optimist, I really am. It is absolutely 100% fixable. But you're not going to fix it from one side of the aisle or the other. Our problems stem from our spending problem. It's not revenue. Revenue has been pretty consistent over the years. It's our spending. And I sit on appropriations. And if you read the Constitution, which I think everyone should read it at least once a month, it's only eight pages, not very long. But Article 1, Section 9 in Article 1, it must have been important because they put it in Article 1 is that no money should be removed from the treasury unless by consequence of appropriations. So that sounds great because our founding fathers were merchants, they set it up with checks and balances. So I sent in appropriations. I appropriate less than a third of the budget. 20 years ago it was just opposite. And what's the third? A third what's called discretionary spending. That's our parks, our military is over half of that. It's the face of American government. On the services, the other side, which is the big three, the big three ships that are all sinking by the way are Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare. Those three ships have now eroded industrial in the spending. Not eroded, but have expanded into spending where now they're 70% of the budget. And growing discretionary is actually shrinking on gdp.
- [02:30]
Joe Rogan
When did that start? When did that ratio start going from it was 70% discretionary to 30%.
- [02:36]
Ryan Zinke
If you go back 30 years ago it was 70% was on what's called the non discretionary mandated spending. Those are the three. And over time Medicaid has been expanded and you have Medicaid, which is for seniors and elderly, but you have Medicaid advantage. We're paying for ski trips and we're paying for passes and dog food. Sometimes Medicaid, which has got a lot of attention recently, we're paying for people that aren't working at all. And then you have the processes, chips for kids. Then it rolls over to Medicaid for those that need some help. And then it rolls over to Medicare that's socialized all the way through one's life. And then Obamacare was supposed to solve a lot of it. It hasn't solved a lot of it. And we're gonna look at services where we're at. Look, I'm all for people that need it. You know, hand up. Not a handout. I think you're in the same place. But the abuse, the fraud, waste and abuse has gotta stop and we gotta focus on that. What reconciliation did is over. On the Senate side, it takes 60 votes. They have a filibuster. 60 votes. That gets things across the floor. On the House side, we're a simple majority. So simple majority, we have 218 is the majority. Get 218 votes, you're in. But in order to move things forward, if you're going to block in the Senate, then it's a reconciliation and interesting reconciliation, not to get into detail a little, but there's a Byrd's rule from Senator Byrd which puts sideboards on what can and cannot go in. Mostly it's mandated spending and mostly it's a budget reconciliation and not policy. So things that are policy get set aside. But it's an opportunity to look at the spending side of it. And one will say that a criticism will say the spending is not enough. The advocates will say that, hey, we're not going to get stiffed with the largest tax increase in the history of this country. And for Montana, there's some good things in it. I will say it doesn't go further enough in savings. But look, if you have a family ranch or a farm or a business and you're facing a death tax, you know, there's no margin for. If you have to recapitalize a farm at 30%. Right. You'll lose the farm.
- [05:14]
Joe Rogan
It seems like they're living on a razor's edge. It's not. Although people don't realize the TV show Yellowstone was largely shot in Park City.
- [05:23]
Ryan Zinke
On the first two years. Absolutely.
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Joe Rogan
It was like, I think I recognize that building and that's certainly not Bozeman.
- [05:29]
Ryan Zinke
So people should go to Park City Park.
- [05:33]
Joe Rogan
Point being, you know, from my experience with ranchers, and I've actually now had to Go out, Not had to. I've had the great opportunity to go around and meet a bunch of them. They're not flying around in like helicopters and Bentleys. They're working their asses off for margins that are tight. It's not, they're not, they're not. They don't have a printing press of money like people would think if you watch the Yellowstone TV show just spitting out a hundred dollar bills.
- [05:58]
Ryan Zinke
Well, yeah, and there's a saying is that hey, there's no money in cattle. You pay for the lifestyle. You know, it goes up and down. But you're right. I mean, the average size of farms now on the east side is something like 10 or 15,000 acres because you need a lot of land to produce small family farms. Organic farming just don't pay the books. Although there is a saying in the house, kind of tongue in cheek that the Latin name for agriculture is I exempti because they're exempt from a lot of things. But no, it's not an easy life. They're having problems with labor. You know, the machines are so much more expensive. These combines now are, you know, three quarters of a million dollars. Just enormous amount of capital required. But it's hard. But then other things, you know, if you're a small business in Montana, which most businesses are, unless Congress did something, you'd be paying almost double in taxes. Research and development, if you're a company out of Bozeman, a lot of research and development out of Bozeman for photonics, very interesting technologies. But it requires a lot of investment up front. And if you can't write that off, you're just not going to be competitive. So on the tax side, I think there's a lot of goodness on there. Some of the things I don't agree with, but overall, it's government. So government by nature is imperfect. So you got to look at overall, the one thing that I was absolutely opposed to, that I would have voted against the bill had there been the sale of public lands.
- [07:35]
Joe Rogan
Talk to me about. Well, it leads to so many questions. You know, you say you're an optimist and I am too. Is it possible, do you think, to write the ship under our current structure? And I'm like, I'm talking about through the lens of. So the big beautiful bill. When it first came in, what was it, a couple hundred pages and now there's a 900 page version. Right. That they're reading on the floor under that structure. I mean, I had to use ChatGPT and I'm assuming A lot of people do this as well, to look into it. And I was specifically trying to, in the original bill, use light search terms to see how deep I would have to go to find that land sale. Because there's nothing about what that bill is pitched at that has anything to do with public land sales. I had to specifically target chatgpt to find those terms to do it.
- [08:24]
Ryan Zinke
Page 202.
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Joe Rogan
That's what I'm saying. It was stuffed in there.
- [08:27]
Ryan Zinke
Oh, yeah.
- [08:27]
Joe Rogan
How do we get to a place where that can't happen? Cause in this structure, these nine, like, there is so many things. There was AI regulation in there. There was energy regulation, a lot of things that people, if they just most people would say, the big beautiful bill is about taxes. It's like, yes, asterisks. Page 202.5 million acres. How does this happen and how do we. I don't know if we'll be able to right the system if that is allowed to continue.
- [08:55]
Ryan Zinke
Well, here's just in context. We talked about the two sides, discretionary and non discretionary. The fix is, this is, in my judgment, Congress, over the period of time. You're asking them, when did this happen? Congress, over the period of time, invented these terms. Mandated spending, discretionary spending omnibuses, continuing resolutions. In my judgment, all of them were invented so Congress could take a buy a pass, a punt. Didn't have to make tough decisions. If you don't have to make a tough decision, you know what? You won't.
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Joe Rogan
Isn't that their job, though?
- [09:30]
Ryan Zinke
Isn't that our job? Make the tough decision. But once you give a benefit, oh, my gosh. Try to take it back out. And a lot of these benefits were Covid based. Right. So you gotta make tough decisions. I want to save Social Security. I really do. And Social Security should be for those people that need it and have worked their life and then want to enjoy the last parts of their life. But under the system, it's sinking. And so you have to make some corrections in order to make sure that the system stays healthy. On reconciliation, you're right. These bills, a lot of it is templates. This is the template. And you read it and you go, what does it refer to? It refers to section 145 of the US Code, 1711, et cetera, which I'm.
- [10:20]
Joe Rogan
Sure everybody getting ready to vot on these things knows exactly what.
- [10:23]
Ryan Zinke
So you need a Rosetta Stone, right? That's Greek. All right. What does that mean? Yeah, but also on the reconciliation, you had these committees of now jurisdiction and appropriations Wasn't one of them, because we're on the discretionary side, is that they sew these together. So in the case of public lands, Senator Lee is chairman on the Senate side, so he has a whole staff. And so out of that committee, you know, they look for savings. And then hidden in there was a public lands one is the idea that you're gonna get out of debt by selling public lands is just folly. We didn't get into debt because of public lands. We ain't gonna get out of it selling it. You could sell everything and it wouldn't even come close to $36 trillion.
- [11:16]
Joe Rogan
Well, especially if you don't change your spending.
- [11:18]
Ryan Zinke
Spending. You got it. It is the spending side.
- [11:21]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. It's like, okay, hold on. We're gonna sell these public lands over the next few years, but we're not gonna change our spending going forward. So we'll throw a shovel full of dirt into a hole that's actually just gonna keep getting bigger.
- [11:33]
Ryan Zinke
And I would say, and I understand the frustration on public lands, look, if you're in Libby and you're living around a sea of trees and can't harvest one, these catastrophic fires that are burning up our forests, we burned more two by fours last year than we ever harvested. There are more dying trees out of age and maturity than we are harvesting. And that's what sustainable harvest and responsible harvest would look like, is that you look at what the sustainable growth is and that's what you harvest to or close. But I understand the frustration, but it's kind of like running a hotel. If you don't like the management of a hotel, then fire the management, but don't sell the hotel. And on public lands, they talk about grazing because we're talking about food production. The Taylor Grazing act ensures, number one, you have lower cost grazing. So if you're on federal land, you're gonna pay a cut rate as opposed to state or certainly private land. But the intention is, one is to make sure we have a strong food supply, and secondly, to make sure that our Grange lands are healthy over time. Mining, right. When you have a lease on federal property, you have to have a bond, you have to have a mining plan, and then that mining plan has to be executed so you don't. What? So you don't get a Superfund site that this public has to clean up. Now one can say, absolutely, our permitting process needs to be changed. We shouldn't be waiting for a permit for 25 years in Troy, Montana for Montaneer.
- [13:03]
Joe Rogan
That does sound a tad excessive.
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Ryan Zinke
Excessive make the call. In two years, yes or no.
- [13:07]
Joe Rogan
But you can't get a quarter of a century. I mean, come on, be patient.
- [13:10]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah, it's just like, come on, make the call. Is it a good mine or is it a bad mine? In two years, you can pretty much get. Get a plus or minus, right. On whether it should go forward or not. But to drag it out or have these radical judges, in the case of mine in Troy, they are mandating a study on windshield strikes for bumblebees. So if you go forward, the mine, you're going to have more mining traffic. So they're mandating a study on the impact of bumblebee strikes on a windshield.
- [13:46]
Joe Rogan
And a judge is mandating that.
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Ryan Zinke
Yeah, yeah, come on, guys.
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Joe Rogan
Where does a judge even come up with an idea for that?
- [13:53]
Ryan Zinke
It's just.
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Joe Rogan
Or is that money behind the judge via a supporter? Like, why would a judge say bumblebees? This is my issue.
- [14:01]
Ryan Zinke
Well, or grizzlies and grizzlies have recovered. Right. And these radical judges. And the Supreme Court, you know, most recently has finally put these district judges in a box because they were out of control. And it will have an effect too, on environmental law because these judges were ruling nationwide on injunctions, what you can and cannot do. Keystone Pipeline as an example, probably some of these mines, based on their opinion, based on. Not on law, but based on their agenda. And I'm glad the Supreme Court finally reined in the district level, as you know, because it was heading to a fight that I would not prefer to have, because just because the Supreme Court says they're supreme, that's what the court says. It's not what Congress says, it's not what the executive says. But more importantly, that's not what the Constitution says. There are equal branches of government, each defined in the Constitution, Article 1 being Congress. But when one branch decides that they can be an imperialist, as the justice had pointed out, it's wrong. And it puts our whole system in danger. Where you have a district court judge can be stronger and more powerful than a Supreme Court justice because remember, it takes four on a Supreme Court justice to take action, but you have a single judge out there that is shutting down presidential prerogative per the Constitution. That was a problem. So I'm happy to see that Judge Roberts, I think he knew the threat. And I didn't want to go back to Andrew Jackson, who had an issue with the court. He said, you know what, you rule what you want to do, you try to enforce it. Because the enforcement, remember, is Department of Justice. So I'm glad we skirted that land minefield and we're out of it. And now each branch, I think, can operate within the Constitution. We're a lot better off.
- [16:11]
Joe Rogan
I mean, I think our country would probably do better if our government functioned in the manner it was designed.
- [16:16]
Ryan Zinke
You know, I love that Constitution. That's why I thought, you know, people should read it. It's set up delightfully.
- [16:22]
Joe Rogan
Many did for the first time shortly after Trump made the decision to bomb Iran. I have never seen more, and not that I'm a constitutional scholar, I'm just aware that I'm not. I have never seen more online constitutional scholars, most of them, many of them from government, claiming that Trump had just violated the Constitution while utilizing the same permissions that both Obama and Biden did in Libya, Yemen, Somalia, a variety of places. I didn't see that outrage, but all of a sudden the Constitution was being pierced, apparently.
- [16:59]
Ryan Zinke
Well, I think it's the Trump derangement syndrome. I mean, every time President Trump does something, it's either unconstitutional or blatantly wrong. Just because Trump did it, you know, and you're a frogman. So am I. You know, you served my opinion on Iran. Remember, they're the principal sponsor of terrorism in the world. Yeah, in the world, yeah. Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, and they continue it, and they continue to enriching uranium. They haven't changed their modus of operati. It got to the point where they were very, very close. And look, you know, when you have, you know, 535, well, 5,335 pounds of explosive and a chip charge, you know, on a heavy system, and you've done dugs, deep underground systems and that coming at you, just the overpressure alone is going to put a hole in it. But the centrifuges are enormously sensitive. I mean, they are very, very sensitive. They can't move them now with a lot of problems. But you put overpressure in that and no doubt that site's contaminated.
- [18:06]
Joe Rogan
I think they dropped like six just pinhole like right on top of each other.
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Ryan Zinke
And these are deep penetrators. So when you do that, just the overpressure is going to kill anyone in there. It's going to disrupt everything in there. But so whatever material you have now is non contained. It's in the ground, but it's non contained. I wouldn't want to go back in there. But those sites are done. If they don't change their modus of operati, I think it's Going to continue where they're going to lose their navy, they'll lose what's remaining part of their air force, they'll lose their ability to produce energy, their economy. And probably their leadership will be targeted. Because can you imagine a Middle east without a terrorist organization like that? I mean, it would prosper. I mean, Qatar is. Al, Qatar's doing very, very well. Saudis doing very, very well without the leading sponsor of terrorism in the neighborhood. I think that region would prosper, and I don't think the US Would have the presence we do with the Fifth Fleet and be there, because if it was prosperous, there's no reason why we're there to the degree we are.
- [19:19]
Joe Rogan
Do you ever get to talk to Trump?
- [19:21]
Ryan Zinke
I do. You know, he's. I work for him, obviously.
- [19:24]
Joe Rogan
Can you tell him he's his own worst enemy from a layperson that he really just. He's at a 10. If I could get him to a 7 with some of the things that he said, I think it would really help with the.
- [19:36]
Ryan Zinke
Well, my cut on the president is this, is that the one is there's only one Donald J. Trump, right? And he is the master of playing to the media. And a lot of it is absolutely intentional, and he likes chaos. You guys, you know, guys from New York, right? I'm not saying the President is, but a lot of guys from New York, you know, probably 30% a little BS, 40% fact, and then 30% unknown. It's the unknown. Is he gonna do it? Is he not gonna do it? Has he already done it? You don't know. So that uncertainty is leverageable. And with President Trump, when he says something, you gotta take him. You gotta take it in consideration. He may not do it, but he certainly said it.
- [20:29]
Joe Rogan
Can he at least use less adjectives? You know, like 78% less adjectives. Clear and concise communication. Like, this is a ethos of, like, SEAL leadership.
- [20:42]
Ryan Zinke
You know, I. I'm just saying maybe if you. I'm a big Ronald Reagan fan, you know, but also, you know, considering what they throw at him, he is tough because they, you know, they. They, you know, our nation, our intelligence assets, they spied on him before he was president. That's what the Russian collusion was about, and they lied about it.
- [21:05]
Joe Rogan
Let me ask you this. How widespread do you think that is? Because if that was actually happening to him, I have a hard time believing it doesn't happen to others.
- [21:13]
Ryan Zinke
Well, it certainly happened to me. Not in the scale that happened to Trump, but you look at Trump, he was spied on by our intelligence assets.
- [21:21]
Joe Rogan
Before he was president, which directly violates their charter. They're supposed to be externally looking, not internally.
- [21:25]
Ryan Zinke
Yep. And then they spied on him during the presidency. That was the Ukrainian collusion. And they spied on him post president. That was Mar a Lago. So you have. When I say a deep state. There really is a deep state. And just statistics. 94% of Washington D.C. voted for Kamala Harris. 94. And I will say that 6% don't work in government. So you have an attitude in Washington, D.C. that when they say there's an attitude that we're superior. And you see from policies. Right. They know more about a Montana river than you do. They know more about agriculture than you do. They know more about business than you do. Just ask them.
- [22:13]
Joe Rogan
That part might be true. I'm kind of an idiot.
- [22:14]
Ryan Zinke
But. Well, but there's this sense of they know more in D.C. and they probably.
- [22:23]
Joe Rogan
Think they know hunting regulations here.
- [22:25]
Ryan Zinke
Absolutely. So when I was secretary, it's kind of funny, I put a video arcade in the bottom with a mess hall. Interior is a huge building. It's like eight stories and three blocks long. No one's in it now, so I think we can consolidate. But anyway, I put this Buckmaster hunting video arcade, right? And it was free. I said, you know what? We'll have contest the top two winners. I'll challenge you. It's kind of a fun thing, right? Oh, my God. The idea in Department of Interior that I was promoting the killing of animals, hunting, and then on a duck stamp. Right. Because remember, hunters buy duck stamps. That's how we fund a lot of our conservation. So I put a hunting dog on a duck stamp. The pushback I got, because it's a DC model, and they don't understand about hunting, fishing, conservation. They don't understand that, you know, you were Department of Interior. We're the Department of Responsible Hunting. We're the Department of Conservation. This is what Department of Interior should be promoting. Our wildlife refuges were set aside to make sure they have healthy flocks to hunt. That's why Teddy Roosevelt started it, to make sure we can promote hunting and fishing for the next generation. They're not a wildlife refuge for bird watching, per se. Yeah, but that's certainly a part of it. But that wasn't. That's not. The main purpose of them is make sure the health of the species.
- [24:05]
Joe Rogan
The people who try to regulate that stuff with no understanding of what it looks like in practice, they need. I mean, I don't know, maybe we need to force people out of D.C. because I bet those same people would have no problem going to a grocery store, standing in front of the steak aisle and selecting a ribeye. Not it's like. Well to your point, like you, like you want to sit there and tell me how to live my life. Because I happen to live in a western state where hunting is amazing and I can feed my family on wild like one elk. Well, I eat a lot and so do my kids. Bastards. But so one elk may not cut me for the year.
- [24:40]
Ryan Zinke
Hunter bigger. Hunt a bigger elk.
- [24:42]
Joe Rogan
Sometimes it's what walks out in front of you here. I limited on the old calendar, but why do they have an issue with that? Where I'm getting my tag? Where conservationists. I mean I'm friends with a guy who flies the fishing game, a star. And they're out there constantly looking at herd sizes and tracking and seeding lakes. I'm buying my tags from that. That goes to confirmation conservation. And people have an issue with that because I'm killing the animal. But literally we'll go to a Safeway and stand in front of a stake aisle and outsource the killing of that animal and try to take the moral high ground. It's like, how about you live your life and I'll live my life. You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone. Don't put regulations on top of me and I won't put regulations on top of you. They don't even know what they're talking about though.
- [25:24]
Ryan Zinke
God bless you. When I was secretary, I moved BLM Bureau of Land Management out west because most of the land.
- [25:31]
Joe Rogan
That's where most of it is.
- [25:32]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah. And the other thing is Washington D.C. is super expensive, Especially if you're trying to recruit young talent. You know, childcare, for instance, is $2,500 a kid. That means if you. Per month. Per month. All right, so if you have two kids, you gotta be making about $70,000 a year just for dedicated to childcare. Yeah, that's not covering mortgage for someone else to raise your kids. Cause remember, it's after taxes. Right. So I said, you know what? Let's move BLM out there. One better quality of life for the folks. But two is that get closer to where BLM is. So you understand the problem of giving a ticket on a county road. You understand a problem of abuse of government, understanding that public lands are multiple use, especially BLM land where it's grazing, it's hunting, it's mining, it's conservation, but it's multitude of use and not single use. But from DC's perspective, a lot of times BLM, their only purpose really is conservation. Where the problem is you. You're out there on public land, so it should be set aside for the animals and the fish. But you're the problem. And I keep reminding even our park system, if you go to Yellowstone, engraved in stone over the arch for the benefit and enjoyment of the people. That's why we have a park system, so you can enjoy the park, your kids can enjoy the park, and you'll be, you'll have a hook so you understand the conservation part of it and the majesty of our beauty. So a lot of times the park system was again designed for the people to make sure that our future generations have the same opportunity to visit and look at the wonders and also capture why our public lands are so important.
- [27:28]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I don't have an issue. And I actually think it's essential that we look at the public land that the government is managing. And if there are things that we can do better, we absolutely should. But there needs to be a process. I don't understand how Mr. Lee is able with his staff to just, hey, make a hit, enter on this document and we'll just slide. Does he have to declare that or can you just slide stuff in there and hope somebody doesn't catch it?
- [27:54]
Ryan Zinke
Well, in this case, I think we all caught it. But you're absolutely right. So when I was secretary, I subtracted land, I added land, I exchanged land. But there's a process to it. And the process starts mostly in the west, where lands were previously occupied by the nations.
- [28:15]
Joe Rogan
We're surrounded by them right now.
- [28:16]
Ryan Zinke
And so you should consult first because a lot of public lands have access. But those public lands may contain cultural sites, historical sites that you just need to be aware of and consult with them second, you've got to consult with local and state governments. And then there's considerations, wildlife management, that's wildlife corridors. Are you going to sell the surface? Are you going to sell subsurface and what's below the subsurface? Because it makes a difference. Water rights. You have public access issues. A lot of areas around small towns. That's going to be a trailhead, certainly is in Montana a lot. You also have recreation is what it's used for. And I am open to look at highest, best use and do an assessment primarily of lands that are smallest for the change and incompatible use. Affordable housing, for instance. Affordable housing is called an apartment. That's tens of acres. It's not millions of acres. And Certainly not luxury ranchettes at 1,000 acres a pop. That's not affordable housing. And oh, by the way, a law will put in, in regulation if you're going to transfer public land to affordable housing, it's $100 an acre, which makes sense. But even in the housing issue, you know, land is not the biggest cost in housing. Permitting and infrastructure is about 40% because you got to have water, you got to have sewer, you got to have curbs, you got to have all that kind of stuff. That's about 40%. Then you got to build it. So then you got building materials and then you got labor costs. And whoever is going to develop is going to have some profit, generally less than now, 5%. So land itself is not going to get you out of the affordable housing problem.
- [30:10]
Joe Rogan
I mean, I can look at the coffee shop build we did. It was a quarter city block. And the acquisition cost of the land was, I'm not going to say fractional, but a vast minority of the overhead cost of actually getting that off the ground.
- [30:24]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah.
- [30:25]
Joe Rogan
And the permitting was such a joy.
- [30:28]
Ryan Zinke
Joy, joyful, wasn't it?
- [30:29]
Joe Rogan
Oh, my God. We had the EPA and we had to do. I forget what they're called, but we had to dig two different trenches for rainwater. And it was insane. The way that they wanted us to set it up, they basically, I am not joking, I wish I could find the PDF. They basically wanted to make it a trip hazard where it was these open cavernous rectangles like this table, two of them on the outside patio with a six inch concrete barrier that somebody would just trip over and take a header in. And I'm in this meeting, like, are you guys accepting liability for somebody who hurts himself because you're forcing me to do this. They're like, absolutely not. You know, that's your liability. Like, so I, I don't have a choice as to whether or not I have to do this. And I don't agree with this design and I'm liable. And they basically like, oh, yeah, that sounds fantastic.
- [31:16]
Ryan Zinke
And this is Kalispell. Like, imagine if you're in Whitefish. But no, but you're. So, you know, permitting give you an example in Seeley Lake. Seeley Lake doesn't have a car wash. Really? Yeah. The reason why they don't have a sewer system.
- [31:33]
Joe Rogan
Oh, damn.
- [31:34]
Ryan Zinke
So when that mill went out, there are a lot of reasons why the mill went out. They didn't invest. So it was an older mill, but some of it was affordable housing in Sealy. Well, affordable housing, if you're going to put an apartment complex in there. Then you're going to need a sewer system to plug into because you know where Celia is is a cirque. So you put a little straw down, you're going to hit water about 20ft. But the water doesn't move because it kind of sits in a basin of clay. So they need a sewer system. Okay, let's work on a sewer system. But that's infrastructure. And you're not going to be able to put septic tanks everywhere. And then in the valley, let's look at Evergreen. Right? Almost everyone on Evergreen is on a septic.
- [32:18]
Joe Rogan
Really?
- [32:18]
Ryan Zinke
Yep.
- [32:19]
Joe Rogan
Even though it's just east, basically east.
- [32:21]
Ryan Zinke
Side of Kalispell, off septic. So what happens in the Valley? About every 25 years we have a flood.
- [32:26]
Joe Rogan
Oh, I know. This story's good.
- [32:27]
Ryan Zinke
Here it comes. So it's a big, big flush, right? And where does it go? All the lake.
- [32:34]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [32:35]
Ryan Zinke
So look, basic infrastructure is what we should be working on. And basic infrastructure allows apartments that allows higher density so you can build affordable housing. Look, in affordable housing, it's, it's a step, right? You get in, you get into a small unit first and then, and then you, you save. Then you can move up the chain, up, up the ladder and then get the three bedroom, you know, two bath house. Right. But you know, when the prices are, you're not going to go from zero to a three bedroom, two bath house at $1 million. You're going to have to work your way up, gain equity. It's a slower process than it should be, but at least there's housing available. But you need a new prayer conversation. You need the infrastructure behind it so you can plug in. Sewer systems are expensive, but in a lot of cases, a septic is now, you know, 30, 40, $50,000 on a septic and you got to get a permit. And it's expensive.
- [33:33]
Joe Rogan
The pricing, we would get quotes for lumber for the shop good for 24 hours.
- [33:39]
Ryan Zinke
24 hours.
- [33:39]
Joe Rogan
Well, we built during COVID because of course, why not have a great idea and then build during. Historically the most expensive time ever. I think we could have probably saved 40% on the build. But yeah, 24 hour lumber quote.
- [33:52]
Ryan Zinke
Well, here's a lumber with public lands, right? You sell public lands, does that mean you're going to have a sustainable timber? No, you sell your public lands, that's it. So the public is not going to. And we're not going to be able to lease. And yes, we need to get better on making sure we have harvest but if you sell the property, guess what? Your long term timber production on federal lands go to zero because it's not yours anymore. So the idea that selling public lands is somehow going to solve our budget crisis. And then you have recreation. Recreation is a $1.1 trillion industry. Trillion. That's 12 times more than mining, probably mineral extraction combined. I mean, that's how big the recreation industry is. And that's you and I. That's fishing, that's hunting, that's mountain biking, all those type of things that we use the public lands for, which you got to put in the column of look, this is an asset. But you know, again, I agree that there are some buildings and tracts of land that probably should be sold or exchanged or traded, but there's a process to it. And oh, by the way, whether public lands are in Montana or Utah or Maine, they belong to us all. So all of us should have a public comment to it. Yeah, that means we should have a say in what highest and best use is.
- [35:27]
Joe Rogan
I think that's what pissed people off the most. I think. I don't know if it would have gone through. I suspect it wouldn't have. But by not. And that's why I asked you if they have to declare what they slide in there. I think his reception might have been a little softer had he declared it, but it seems like it was stuffed and hidden. And the language, in my opinion, was intentionally very broad. It didn't mention affordable anything. It just said up to 2.5 million acres. I'm at a point in time where trusting politicians is like in an all time low. I think I'd rather get a drink from Bill Cosby.
- [36:02]
Ryan Zinke
Remember, Congress has a 17% approval rating. I say, Congress, we're earning our approval rating every day.
- [36:10]
Joe Rogan
I just don't think anything was accidental about that. I don't think the way it was put in there, the language that was put in there, none of that. I feel like it was accidental but left out of that. And I think that's why a lot of outdoors people or people who care about the land had the reaction that they did. I don't know if it would have been a softer reaction if he had declared it, but he definitely, I think he kicked a hornet's nest by accident.
- [36:32]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah. And it should have been. But also, you know, when you say, well, it's just five miles around a town or municipality and you go, all right, five miles, what does that mean? What you got to go five miles, north, south, east, west. Oh, that's 100 square miles. That's 100 square miles around little towns like Stryker. That's an awful big swath of land. It far exceeds affordable housing and it infringes on this. On, on the far right, it's like federal government should not own any estate on the left, people should not do anything on it. We should just preserve it forever and not transit across it. Right. But the rest of us live in. The reality is that we enjoy our public lands. If you're in Montana or the west, we live in the west because of access primarily to our public lands. So we enjoy using them. Not all of it is probably. There's dirt out there that probably could be converted for other things. But if you're going to expand an airport, if you're going to look at education, when I was secretary, there was a school in New Mexico. It was adjacent to a BLM land. And they want to expand a gym. Yeah, absolutely. It made total sense. There's 30 acres sitting in Lima. That's the U.S. forest Service next to the school. It's not used for recreation. It's not used for herds of the elk. It's a patch of weeds that there's probably highest and best use. There's 40 acres in the middle of Reagan Ranch in California. That's a BLM land that ought to be probably transferred just a little. Just a little square in the middle of Reagan Ranch. How did that get there? And there's exchanges. Right. You look at some of these. The patchwork doesn't have public access to it. So you look at how do we do public access? It's better. We exchange it out for a property that has better access, better wildlife management opportunities. But these are thoughtful considerations and not hidden in a bill at 10:30 at night on page 202, which sounds okay, but when you actually open up the file, it's more extensive and it's all of a sudden millions of acres of transfer or sale of what I would say is our greatest treasure. America's best idea was the park system. America's public lands is a great idea.
- [39:09]
Joe Rogan
How do we get it so there are no more 200 page bills or 900 page bills that are being read throughout the night. Is it possible to have single issue bills versus omnibus bills?
- [39:22]
Ryan Zinke
You know, one would think it's almost.
- [39:27]
Joe Rogan
As if the people reading it would have a better time understanding it before they voted as well.
- [39:31]
Ryan Zinke
Well, and some of it's, you know, politics. The farm bill. Right, the farm bill. Wouldn't it be nice if the farm bill was about a Farm. Yes, but the farm bill. Most about the farm bill is snap. Most of it's food stamps, most of it's other things that are in the Department of Agriculture. And the Department of agriculture in D.C. by the way, is a larger building than Interior. I think it's like six stories and maybe a few blocks long. They don't grow one plant in that department. Most of it is entitlements, it's programs, you know, school lunch programs. Not necessarily, they're not important. But all of a sudden you have the farmers on one group and you have the food stamps and another group and somehow they managed to put these huge bills together in order to pass because there's somethingsomething that draws it from both sides of the aisle. I'm a big advocate for single topic bills. Even the defense, you know, defense is much more than just arms.
- [40:35]
Joe Rogan
What would it take to change the system to that though? Who would have to agree to that?
- [40:39]
Ryan Zinke
Well, what I've seen most recently is kind of going back to Appropriations. The way it's the way the system was designed. You have the authorizing committees, it's kind of like a menu. And the authorizing committee authorizes that you can spend government dollars on this program. Then you have a budget committee that says, you know what this is how much money you got in the pocket. And then the appropriators, which is on one of it, take the menu, we look at the menu, we look at the, we look at our budget and say, all right, this is how much we have to spend. I'm going to match the spending to what the menu is because our founding fathers were merchants. So there's a checks and balance along the way. That's the way the system was designed. We've deviated too far from the Constitution in my opinion. And now you have a lot of programs that aren't authorized or reauthorized. Like the Department of State hasn't been reauthorized because Congress hasn't been doing their duty. So to me, I would say appropriators should not appropriate anything unless it's authorized.
- [41:48]
Joe Rogan
That makes sense to a logical person.
- [41:50]
Ryan Zinke
It does. And there's a budget to it. So follow the budget. You know what? And the budget is the budget. And look, if you don't have enough money, then you got to cut back on certain things and stay within your operating budget. There's 36 trillion reasons why it's a really good idea. And I would say where we are overall is there's three things that have to happen. One is the Economy has to get better because people are struggling out there. There's no doubt. Secondly, this trade war and tariffs, it has to come to a conclusion. Tariffs has to result in a trade deal that is sustainable and known so the uncertainty goes out of the market. And lastly, our spending has to show to lower the interest rates. Interest rates are the big killer because just a two point raise in interest rates can double your mortgage. So we focus sometimes on inflation, we focus on taxes. But interest rates are the big kahuna because when interest rates and the ability to have capital, they affect your car loan, your house loan, your credit card payments, all that is the big tax. And I think for this bill, reconciliation, I think the report card on it is really the 10 year treasury yield. What is the bond market? The bond market doesn't lie. If the bond market says, you know what, America can control their spending, then our investment in our T bills, our investment in America is good and you're going to receive, we're going to pay our bills. That 10 year yield is really the report card. And then if the report card is good, you'll see interest rates start to creep back down and then the accessibility of capital. If you're a business, you don't have to pay. Look, if you're a business guy and you got to borrow at 10% if you're lucky, well yeah, well, you borrow at 10%, that means you got to make profit. That means you got to make 25% because you also have profit overhead. You got all those payments plus interest. Our government is paying a trillion dollars in interest. A trillion. A lot of it. Because the bond market is at, I don't know, 4.7 or somewhere in there. That means we got to pay 4.7 interest. And America is insolvent at the moment. That means we have to borrow money to pay our bills. We're not bankrupt. But when we have to borrow money to pay our bills, that means we borrow more, we pay more interest. That's the problem. We gotta stop the spending, excessive spending. And I think the first step is fraud, waste and abuse and a lot of fraud, waste and abuse. So get that and then deliver services to the people that need it. That's important. And then focus on long term investment, infrastructure, those type of things that helps an economy move forward.
- [45:01]
Joe Rogan
Do you think the DOGE concept will help with the fraud, waste and abuse?
- [45:05]
Ryan Zinke
It certainly did. You know, it's interesting, when I was secretary, I stopped all grants. I put a hold on them all. And all they want to know is who is getting the grant, which I.
- [45:17]
Joe Rogan
Feel like, as somebody giving grant money, is an incredibly reasonable question.
- [45:22]
Ryan Zinke
Very reasonable. And then I wanted to know, do you have a spending plan?
- [45:25]
Joe Rogan
Also reasonable.
- [45:27]
Ryan Zinke
Yep. And do you agree. Do you agree to an audit? So if you say you're going to use the money for this purpose, do you agree to an audit to make sure that this verified Right. And is there any conflict of interest that I should know? Sometimes a conflict of interest is bad. Example is that a lot of the park, you know, employees, superintendents, they're also married to someone that has a 501C3, they're, you know, which is totally fine. But if you're a superintendent, you should not be giving a grant to your wife's nonprofit, funneling government money to your family members. That decision needs to go one layer up where you're not making the call. Doesn't mean that your wife's company or your husband's company or nonprofit is bad. It could be great, but you should just not be making the decision.
- [46:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. You shouldn't be the guy flipping the switch for the cash flow.
- [46:21]
Ryan Zinke
It needs to go up one layer of the chain of command. And those things were very reasonable. And you would have thought, my God, I got so much pushback. It was like, I'm putting a nuclear power plant in your grandmother's grave. But with Doge, the difference is he did it at a much, much larger scale. And he came in the brilliance of it. He came in. They were employees of the US treasury, by the way, fully badged, fully vetted. They were new hires, but they were able to use AI, just as you did going through that bill. Right. And they determined, look, $7 trillion worth of transactions. Not one rejection. $7 trillion of transactions and not one rejection. And then all of a sudden, what are we spending money on? Are we really spending money on transgender clinics in India? Well, the answer is yes. Is there really people that are listed with a Social Security number that are older than this country itself? Why, yes. Are we $300 million worth of grants for people that are 120 years old out of the Small Business Administration? Well, yes. So the abuse is there. One hub distribution center for Social Security checks that are going to overseas accounts? Why, yes. So what the brilliance of it was, he exposed it. But there's three steps. One is you gotta expose the fraud. Two, you gotta confirm it. So just because you have an age that's 130 years old and you're in the Social Security system doesn't mean you gotta check. So you gotta confirm that the fraud was actually there. And the last step is you gotta take action on it because that money is in an account. When you freeze it, it's still there. It's like in your savings account. It's there. Do you resend it, do you put it back to treasury? Or do you repurpose it for something that is actually worthy? But the three steps I think were Elon Musk was brilliant. Is he exposed a lot of it. The second step, and harder is to confirm it. And then Congress has to do their job, their administration in rescinding it or repurposing it.
- [48:41]
Joe Rogan
What do you think the likelihood of those last two steps are going to be?
- [48:44]
Ryan Zinke
Well, we just rescinded an enormous amount. Well, you know, budget, $7 trillion budget, we rescinded billions. So that was the first step on it. I think we'll see other rescindants on it. And I think also the departments are much more aware, are going through and, and you know, and they're looking at where the money is going.
- [49:07]
Joe Rogan
The other thing, my question, why weren't you doing that before?
- [49:10]
Ryan Zinke
Why were you? Why were we? Yeah.
- [49:14]
Joe Rogan
Oh no, we just got our, we just got our pee pee spanked. Okay, it's time to do our job. How about do your damn job so we don't find our help?
- [49:21]
Ryan Zinke
Well, and there's been a couple really good things on the court. One is the Chevron decision which, which says the administration can't do things outside the intent of Congress. For instance, you have a department that is giving grants without congressional intent certainly in the area. And that is being reined in and that's post Biden administration. And then this injunction was an important thing. The other thing is this, is that some of the grants that affect Montana, a lot of the grants, because the Biden administration was in charge in order to write a grant, say even things for reduction of fuels. Right. Well, if the Biden administration says look, you got to look at climate change, you got to look at dei, those are the litmus tests that your grant will be judged on. Well, obviously you're going to write the grant that way. Even though a lot of these programs had very little to do with climate change. They're actually just good practices on fuel reduction, those type of things. So they got caught up in the all stop and a lot of these grants are being reworked to actual purpose and they'll be approved. But on the first blush, everything that said dei, everything that said climate change was scrutinized and stopped. But again, a lot of these grants in Montana had less to do with that. It had more to do with the administration. And what the administration put out as, this is what you need to do to be competitive to a grant. And if you're a grant writer, your goal is to, what, get money, get the grant. Right. So you're gonna write it this way under the Trump administration, different set of rules. So you're gonna write your grants more appropriately with the current administration. And we're seeing that. So that's a good thing.
- [51:20]
Joe Rogan
The deep state. So I used to think. Or I'd hear people talk and they'd say, it's a group of people, right? And they'd sit down at a table and they'd get their swords out. It's like in Monaco trying to rule the world. And I met. I'm of the opinion. Now, I do think the deep state exists, but I think it's more of a mentality. And I would tie it to people in power want to stay in power, people in influence want to stay in influence. How do we get rid of that in the government?
- [51:43]
Ryan Zinke
I think, unless.
- [51:44]
Joe Rogan
Are you aware of a Knights of the Roundtable of the Deep State?
- [51:47]
Ryan Zinke
I don't. I don't think there's a. There's a. There's a meeting.
- [51:51]
Joe Rogan
The boys Thursday of every month.
- [51:53]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah. Somewhere in Vienna. But, you know, it's funny because, you know, I knew there was a deep state and kind of tongue in cheek when I went in, you know, I brought a set of hip waders because I knew it was a swamp. Should have brought a boat much deeper than I thought. But it's an attitude, it's an agenda. It is an arrogance. The deep state is oftentimes, because it comes from D.C. a liberal point of view that is in a bubble. It's a point of view that doesn't represent America. It doesn't represent. You know, most people are just trying to get through life and make sure they pay the bills and pay taxes and get the kids to school. The deep state is an arrogance that they know better. And it's an arrogance that has been cultivated and to a degree, it's an echo chamber. And there's a resistance to change. There's a resistance, and you've dealt with it as a seal. The divide between ops and Intel.
- [52:59]
Joe Rogan
No, they're always aligned.
- [53:01]
Ryan Zinke
Oh, you know, Ops wants to get rid of the cancer. Intel wants to cultivate it and study it. So you have these tensions in there, and the bureaucracy, a lot of it is overpower. It's that my decision matrix is better than Yours. And I want to say in everything that you want to do.
- [53:27]
Joe Rogan
But how do you change that? It seems so deeply ingrained in our current system.
- [53:32]
Ryan Zinke
Well, you know, some of it is the decision matrix needs to change where you can have an influence, but you don't get the yes or no. If you have 30 people in line and everyone can say no along the way, you'll never get anything done. That means you can comment on it, but the decision should be the top without you saying yes or no. You can influence a decision by making comment of it, but you can't keep it in the desk. And the president, administration, everyone in the executive branch works for the president ultimately, and that's the agenda and that's why we have an election. So you have to make the decision matrix more streamlined. So it can't be no, no, no, no, no, asea Nos. And hold up, as an example with.
- [54:23]
Joe Rogan
Rubio, what do you think the odds though, even just what you're describing, that the people in that system who enjoy their ability to keep it on the desk, voting to change the system to reduce their input?
- [54:33]
Ryan Zinke
Well, with Rubio, the reports from the field, right there was 40 layers from that field report to the secretary.
- [54:44]
Joe Rogan
I'm sure he was just getting really good beta.
- [54:46]
Ryan Zinke
Oh, everyone was manipulated. So he said, no, I want to go back to the raw data and see that. And all of a sudden, when he's seeing that raw data and he's the one in charge, I can tell you those that were manipulated in between, it should make them awful, uncomfortable because they've been spewing garbage for a long time. Same thing with Tulsi Gabra. You saw this, that the Iranians weren't working on enriching uranium. They had no aspiration for a nuclear weapon. They stopped the program in 2003. So who told her that? It's an intel community that wasn't looking the same sheet that you and I were. I was in Iraq in 2004. I can tell you the Iranians were working on it aggressively then. And the nuclear deal that Obama signed, you know, gave them carte blanc to enrich uranium. It gave them carte blanc to develop the ICBMs or the ballistic missiles. It didn't prohibit one bit on missile technology. That's why they were saying death to Israel on the side of their missiles. It didn't look at that. And it didn't allow for sites to be confirmed where he had inspections. So all of a sudden, military bases, like the ones that were just bombed in submission were off Limits for international inspectors. Of course, they were working on it every day. Right. But back to your point, you know, I think accountability, responsibility, and get as much as you can out of dc. Just that. Ontario, which I knew I knew best, is that I tried to get BLM out. And so BLM left, new administration came back. They brought him back. But how many actual people came back?
- [56:32]
Joe Rogan
Oh, I'm gonna say 10%.
- [56:33]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah. Yeah. So all of a sudden, this is where the remote came in, right? Yeah. Is that why would you want to go back to D.C. especially if you're out. Right. And you've been out, been out of D.C. for five years, chances of now having a family are pretty good. Right.
- [56:45]
Joe Rogan
I don't even work there, and I avoid it like the plague.
- [56:47]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah. So it's a lovely place to visit. When you visit, come by the office, say hello, we'll take you on a tour. Lovely place to visit. But I can say for every hour you spend in dc, you take a shower for two.
- [56:59]
Joe Rogan
Just feels like it's full of vampires.
- [57:02]
Ryan Zinke
It's inside the bureaucracy. And there's a lot of people that want to do a good job, that do do a good job, but there's just this prevailing attitude, as you say, that we knew better, and there's an arrogance to it. And sometimes they forget who they serve, who you serve as the public. They're your customer, you know, that's your client. And do right by America. And also understand that states have a say. You know, our Constitution. We're, you know, the United States of America. So, you know, Montana should have a voice. And we shouldn't get overridden all the time by someone that doesn't know where the Flathead Valley is, or they don't know where the Yellowstone river is. And yet they want to control water flow, water temperature, riparian banks, you know, in and out, all drops going in into a Yellowstone river that the only Yellowstone they understand is from the TV.
- [58:04]
Joe Rogan
Series, which, again, was filmed in Park.
- [58:06]
Ryan Zinke
City for two years. Yes. As I said. Yeah. Did we say Park City? Go to Park City, Utah. But you know what's funny about Yellowstone is that, you know, because I've gotten to know Kevin Costner a little, and he's a wonderful man, and they've done a good job on the writers, the production. But it's a drama. It's a drama set in Montana, just like Star wars is a drama set in space. Right. The vistas are great, but the storyline is a drama. So don't get wrapped around the axle. Although Beth is Tough. Beth reminds me of a lot of Montanans.
- [58:43]
Joe Rogan
For the people who bitch about Yellowstone, I have to remind them. Have you ever watched a little movie called A River Runs Through It? I mean, arguably the most beautiful, beautiful man ever just fly fishing in a Montana river. Like, oh, that didn't have any impact on people wanting to come check this out because that was decades ago. Like, let's just take a rap.
- [58:59]
Ryan Zinke
Well, it's also filmed ironically.
- [59:01]
Joe Rogan
That's what I'm saying.
- [59:02]
Ryan Zinke
And the Bitterroot, a lot of us filmed the Bitterroot were now, you know, Yellowstone. The, the little ranch they have is also in the Bitterroot by Darby.
- [59:11]
Joe Rogan
But what are your thoughts on as a Montana? I hear this from mostly hunters. Public land that's landlocked private property. What's the solution to that?
- [59:21]
Ryan Zinke
Well, all right, Corners. This is where I sit in corners.
- [59:26]
Joe Rogan
I mean, even more than, I mean there's just like some, there are some swaths of like huge ranches where even the corners wouldn't do it. It's literally pockets of private or pockets of public that are basically circled by private somewhere.
- [59:40]
Ryan Zinke
But it's a two way street. All right, so somewhere on that section of land there's access. It may not be the corner. The corner might be over a cliff, but there's somewhere that you should be able to have access to that public land. By the same token, is the government sometimes prevents access to private land. So this is a two way street. If you have land, then you know what, you should have enjoyment of that land and there should be access both private and public to that land. But to have something landlocked, I don't agree with. But you know, there has to be some consideration too, because if you're a property owner, you know, you don't want people, you know, strutting across your land and violating your cattle and all those kind of things. But there's workarounds. There needs to be incentives for it to be done. And maybe the best solution is an exchange where you have better public access, where your wildlife management is better. It might be a corridor for one of our elk herds or something. Look at that. I think it was brilliant the way that the west was saved by the checkerboard going through time. It probably, I would say, protected a lot of the outdoor experience. But you know, again, specific pieces of property, you can look at exchanges, you can look at how to get public access in there. Wildlife corridors are interesting because as we kind of. The Montana that I grew up in has changed a little. There's A lot more fence lines, a lot more people in the river. A lot more challenges on conservation. And some of it is fence lines. You know, sheep don't go through fences. Sheep will go around 40, 50 miles. Oh, yeah. And elk will go right over it. The bear will go through it. Right. But sheep are a little different. And so, you know, some of the fence lines you got to work with. We should be working with our ranch owners and make sure you design fences that can provide a corridor. You see a lot more overpasses, wildlife overpasses being developed, which is a good thing.
- [61:59]
Joe Rogan
So really cool. One on the 93 heading down towards Missoula.
- [62:02]
Ryan Zinke
Yep. And there's going to be one down in Paradise Valley on that one. But when you did an analysis of corridors which allow herds to go from. It's kind of like veins in your body, Right. You want to make sure they go from winter range to summer range and everyone in between. And a lot of that, that the growth in, you know, just ranches and stuff with fences a lot of times has prevented and has obstructions to that system of corridors and the health of the herds, especially, you know, elk and our larger undulates rely on a corridor of movement. And it is a system. So looking at corridors, wildlife corridors, and making sure that system stays healthy in the future is important. And then that some. A lot of it is working with ranchers, working with the Department of Transportation, to make sure we identify where those corridors are. Now, some of the predators like it, too, because it kind of funnelizes, you know, funnels. Funnels them in there. So our mountain lions and sometimes grizzlies getting a little fatter.
- [63:16]
Joe Rogan
But I've determined helicopters are the answer to the landlocked public land. It's right over the top of the private well.
- [63:24]
Ryan Zinke
Or. Or you're. You're frogman. You can jump in. You just got. You just got to get out.
- [63:28]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. That is the problem with the helicopter. You can get both in and out. How much longer are you going to work in government?
- [63:33]
Ryan Zinke
You know, I enjoy doing what I'm doing. You know, I grew up in Montana. Love Montana. As long as I'm effective, I'm enjoying it. There's frustrations. I get frustrated just like everybody else, but we win some battles. We won the public land battle, at least for now. On appropriations, I'm concentrating on, like, Knox and Bridge and the sewer system in Seeley Lake. No one knows where Knoxon Bridge is unless you know where Knoxen is. But a little community, they get almost burned to the ground. Their bridge is over 104 years old. It spans the Clark Fork. There's holes in it the size of trash can lids. And for Knoxson, that little bridge is important. It's like the Anderson bridge outside of Dillon. So what I'm doing is on, you know, the federal government kind of looks at their stuff, and they kind of repair their highways. Probably not as good as they should, but. But they do. And then the state kind of takes care of their stuff. Well, in some of our counties, especially Mineral county, Lincoln County, Sanders, Not a lot of money in those coffers in the county. And they need a little help. And this is exactly what the federal government should be doing, is helping them repair that infrastructure, whether it's a sewer system and some it is. The regulations from D.C. have cost, you know, repair of a sewer system to be excessive. So some of it is doing our part to make sure we mitigate some of that pain and fix a bridge so Noxon can maybe have a mercantile there or, you know, Anderson Bridge. How is important? How important is it? Well, it's really important if that's the bridge you use in the sewer system. So I've been focusing on that, and, you know, love Montana. Our office, we have an enormously talented office. So a lot of what we do is constituent outreach. Someone either perceives they've been wronged by the government or actually wronged. And we're that kind of rosetta stone. Because in the wall of government, as you say. Right. You know, how do you find the right button on there to help people.
- [65:51]
Joe Rogan
Or somebody to talk to?
- [65:53]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah. And sometimes just. You're right. People are just so frustrated and so. Well, let me help you with your frustration on there. And then I enjoy going to butte for the St. Patty's Day.
- [66:04]
Joe Rogan
I've heard legendary things about that St. Patty's Day parade.
- [66:07]
Ryan Zinke
I love Butte, and I get yays and nays along the way. Some of it's been generational. They've been naying Republicans for a long time. But I go there. I just love Butte, the spirit. And we're trying to get some into industry and Butte from power.
- [66:25]
Joe Rogan
Because it used to be a mining town, right?
- [66:27]
Ryan Zinke
Yep. Big mining town. The richest hill on earth. And then it became a big hole, and they've struggled. I see Butte bouncing back. There's some industry now coming in. I think one of the constraints is power. And I'll say for Montana, One of the biggest mistakes we ever made was to dissolve and sell Montana power. Because all of a sudden, Northwestern energy gets power off the Market. And that's awful tough when we don't generate it ourselves. But we can fix that. I'm a big proponent of mini nuke, micro nuke. I think coal is still important on the east side. If coal strip went out, it'd be awful dark on the east side. Butte, I think, is an opportunity for maybe micro nuke. Good community. They have some ground there for industry. Bozeman's doing very well on the tech side. A lot of it is university or Montana State University, has done really, really good at satellites.
- [67:28]
Joe Rogan
My son goes there. He's getting a mechanical engineering degree.
- [67:30]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah, great, Great program.
- [67:32]
Joe Rogan
Fantastic. He talks to me about all the stuff that they have there that he can use in CAD and 3D. I'm like, damn, man.
- [67:37]
Ryan Zinke
And I say, Seth Bogner, special forces guy who is the president of University of Montana, he's also moving forward out of a straight liberal arts, a university, cybersecurity. They're venturing into some very interesting curriculum. And I think he's doing a great job. So there's good opportunity academics, and when you have good opportunity for academics, then you can satellite it by secondary industries and kind of a hub. And certainly Bozeman has been a great example of that. But overall, Montana's doing pretty good. The nice thing about Montana is we're a long ways away from D.C. we.
- [68:17]
Joe Rogan
Could be a little farther.
- [68:18]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah, a little further.
- [68:19]
Joe Rogan
A little farther. Be nice. But where we are right now, we're about as far away as you can get in the state. I guess we could do this in Eureka. That's about as far, I think, as we could get away from D.C. well.
- [68:27]
Ryan Zinke
I guess just hope we don't have these catastrophic fires. We got a little rain, which was good. The lake here. I think we're going to be at full pool or near full pool. So I'm glad all parties are getting along on that.
- [68:39]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [68:39]
Ryan Zinke
But, you know, to answer your question, I enjoy the job. There's some frustration on it. Steve Daines and I, we went to Boise State together, so we'd known each other a long time. I pinned Tim Sheehy's Purple Heart. I've known Tim for a while. Great, great addition. Troy Downing's a combat veteran, Air Force. He's on financial services. So we have a good team and we work together on issues from Montana. We talk. We talk a lot. And I think we're making some pretty good progress for Montana.
- [69:17]
Joe Rogan
I'm digging it. What do you want to close out with? I know you got another media engagement.
- [69:20]
Ryan Zinke
You know, I Just. Hey, I just love seeing you again, you know, on frogmen, you know, there's six seals in the House, one in the Senate.
- [69:29]
Joe Rogan
It's just five too many.
- [69:31]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah, well, you know, we're halfway there.
- [69:33]
Joe Rogan
Are you going for a baker's dozen? Aren't you?
- [69:35]
Ryan Zinke
Oh, yeah, of course. I always say, you know, what, if things go really bad, we're your last option, right? We're your final option. But we also have three special. Well, two Special Forces. Mike Waltz is hovering around. We have two special forces. And then on veterans, we're 80 overall. And I'm chairman of Seal Pack, so I'll go out and recruit SEALs and Special Forces guys. I just like folks that have put their life on the line and have given an oath to the Constitution. And you see the political divide. And I would say this to everybody, let's get the anger out of it. Right.
- [70:18]
Joe Rogan
Good luck with that.
- [70:19]
Ryan Zinke
Well, we can agree or disagree, but let's not be angry, because anger is just a distraction. Right?
- [70:24]
Joe Rogan
That's the problem, though. That's the currency of the day. Outrage is the currency of the day.
- [70:29]
Ryan Zinke
Conflict. Right. Because conflict sells papers and it accomplishes nothing.
- [70:33]
Joe Rogan
It allows you to look like you're busy and do jack shit.
- [70:35]
Ryan Zinke
Yeah. And it doesn't move the ball up the field. So just get the anger out. Take a deep breath. You know, you and I, we fought for Americans. We didn't fight against Americans. That's not why we served. So when we come home, guys, look, we're on the same team. We may have different opinions, but let's strive to look at where we can share common ground on it and get done things that we should be getting done. And I think if we concentrate on the economy, concentrate on clean air, clean water, our outdoor recreation experience, and the values of Montana, which we're a little independent, you know, you don't like to be told what to do. Neither do I. So government is the last resort. It's not the first resort. And in Montana, government stops the mailbox because they're supposed to deliver the mail on time. But what you do in your own home, as long as you don't affect your neighbor, you know, and you know what? The guns are sacred here, so don't think about taking on guns. And then when it comes to suppressors, I don't think the atf. I don't think the ATF should be doing it at all. Suppressors are a wonderful thing. Increases accuracy.
- [71:46]
Joe Rogan
How did they end up being regulated the way that they are? I was having a discussion with Somebody online about it's a tool. It doesn't make the weapon more dangerous.
- [71:57]
Ryan Zinke
In fact, if you're hunting. Right, and a suppressor suppresses the sound, so you know, for two valleys over, you don't hear the gun going off, right?
- [72:08]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [72:09]
Ryan Zinke
So it increases the accuracy, it reduces the sound better for your ears. It's not a silencer, so, you know.
- [72:18]
Joe Rogan
It'S funny, the patent actually says silencer.
- [72:20]
Ryan Zinke
Well, we need to change that. It should be a reducer, sound reducer.
- [72:25]
Joe Rogan
But even if it said silencer, it's not. I don't understand why they're so highly restricted in tax.
- [72:30]
Ryan Zinke
So I am doing my best to get the ATF out of the suppressor industry because Montana produces a lot of suppressors. Small little business is great, but they're better for the weapon. But I think ATF ought to get out of it. Our office does a lot of suppressors because the ATF has held onto them. So we do a lot of expediting those suppressors. But I'd like to see the ATF get out of that business. And as far as the database, you know, I like the local sheriff. The local sheriff knows who's in the community, those type of things. I'd like to see more authority go to the local sheriffs and less authority on the ATF in D.C. personally.
- [73:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I would agree with you on that. Well, hell, hit me up the next time you have more free time.
- [73:24]
Ryan Zinke
Great.
- [73:25]
Joe Rogan
It's a nice little commute down the road for you.
- [73:27]
Ryan Zinke
Well, and cleared hot. I gotta tell you, your coffee's great. The official copy of the campaign. But I appreciate what you do. And thanks for serving, brother.
- [73:38]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, my pleasure.
- [73:39]
Ryan Zinke
Cool.
- [73:40]
C
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