Ten Years in the SAS - What They Don't Teach You | Jay Morton | Ep. 455

Summary

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Cleared Hot — Ten Years in the SAS: What They Don’t Teach You | Jay Morton | Ep. 455

Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: Jay Morton (former SAS, mountaineer, author)
Date: June 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging, characteristically candid episode, Andy Stumpf sits down with Jay Morton – veteran of the British Special Air Service (SAS), mountaineer, author, and TV personality – to discuss life and lessons learned both inside and outside of special operations. The conversation wends through military culture, transitions to civilian life, adventures in the mountains, the rise of social media, mental health, and the pursuit of meaning in post-military purpose.

Jay brings his trademark British wit and self-awareness, offering unvarnished reflections on elite service, the complexities of modern UK society, and the perennial quest for fulfillment. The episode is laced with humor, empathy, and plenty of story-swapping.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humor, Sarcasm & British Identity

[00:00–03:00]

• The episode opens with British/Australian banter, language quirks, and the dark humor necessary for life in special operations.
• "I deeply love the mastery of the word 'cunt' by British people. It's one of my favorite things about that side of the pond." – Andy [00:16]

2. UFOs, Ghosts, and the Unexplained

[01:07–07:09]

• Jay and Andy riff on why UFO conspiracy culture is so prevalent in the US compared to the UK.
• Both express skepticism; Jay likens belief in UFOs to belief in ghosts or the afterlife – he's unconvinced without evidence but open-minded.
• "I've never seen a UFO or a ghost. So why would I believe? What does it mean in my life?" – Jay [04:12]

3. Spirituality, Crystals, and Open-Mindedness

[06:04–10:50]

• Jay confesses to wearing a crystal (“tiger’s eye”) given by a friend who identifies as a witch; he is lighthearted but sees value if it brings comfort.
• Discussion expands to shamanism (Jay’s auntie recently became one), how people process grief, and the role of belief systems.
• "If it's real or not and it has a positive impact on their life, does it matter?" – Andy [08:08]

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4. British vs. American Gun Laws & Culture

[14:27–22:04]

• Rich discussion of firearms culture in the UK (strict licensing, little civilian access) versus the US (abundance, but also problems).
• Both men, from military backgrounds, advocate for responsible gun ownership but see that laws alone can't solve violence or mental health crises.
• "It's less about the laws and more about the people... We need to dive deeply into mental health." – Andy [15:12]

5. Military Career, Transition, and Identity

[24:43–33:37]

• Reflections on the “clarity and focus” of special operations life and the challenges of losing structure upon leaving.
• Andy: "Owning a coffee shop is way harder than running a military operation. You have no idea what you're doing." [26:21]
• Jay found the hardest part of SAS wasn’t the danger – it was learning to “figure it out” alone in civilian life amid too many options.

Notable Quotes:

• "It was the funniest time for sure." – Jay [27:32]
• "Leaving that world where you have such support... You leave, and then have to figure it out on your own." – Andy [28:01]

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6. The Realities and Lessons of SAS Selection

[39:40–47:01]

• Jay shares vivid stories from SAS selection: physical pain, stubbornness, fear of being 'rolled back,' and enduring UK weather.
• On hiding an injury: "Say nothing. Don't want to be rolled back or have to repeat it again." – Jay [39:10]
• They touch on the famous (and controversial) Bravo Two Zero incident and how perceptions differ between historians, soldiers, and the public.

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7. Secrecy, Public Identity & Writing About SF Service

[45:20–52:00]

• Discussion on the Official Secrets Act (the UK's lifelong NDA for SF members), public-facing roles, and the difference between secrecy for security and “silent professionalism.”
• Andy and Jay agree that sharing experiences is sometimes necessary to inspire the next generation, so long as it’s done responsibly.
• "There's a right way and a wrong way to do it... the older generation, they want nothing said, but if you're quiet, who's going to inspire the next?" – Andy [162:59]

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8. Everest, Mountaineering, and the Commercialization of Adventure

[87:48–102:23]

• Jay’s guiding work and the evolution of Everest expeditions – from solitary ascents to long lines, commercialization, and garbage problems.
• Insight into how wealthy clients now helicopter in and out, and Everest's transformation into an experience for the rich.
• "It used to be old school, hard-ass mountaineers. Now it's people wanting a photo and a social media post." – Jay [90:18]
• Andy: "AI is never going to lead somebody up a mountain." [171:16]

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9. TV, Fame, and Finding Purpose

[80:13–87:23]

• Both Andy and Jay have dipped into reality TV, finding it useful for building networks and profile, but ultimately inauthentic and unsatisfying compared to ‘real’ life.
• "It's got me experiences I'd never have done. Right. And for that, I'm super grateful. But I'd never chase it as a career." – Jay [82:56]

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10. Social Media, Mental Health, and Modern Discontent

[71:02–75:19, 134:41–135:52]

• Observations on the negative effects of Instagram and online attention, links to rising anxiety and depression, especially among young people.
• Satirical takes on health-maxing, the rise of “optimization” culture, and the need for balance.

Notable Quotes:

• "If you're stressing over getting six hours of sleep, if that's going to unwind your day, sorry, you're not as resilient as you could be." – Andy [157:34]
• "It's a dopamine hit, but equally, it's not sustainable. It's not real life." – Jay [168:52]

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Special Segments & Notable Moments

• Cultural differences in swearing and humor [00:16]
• Gun Laws – who should have access, and why [16:31–18:37]
• The Official Secrets Act and lifelong silence [47:32–48:43]
• Everest garbage, helicopter flights, and “VIP” expeditions [95:48–104:18]
• Isle of Man TT: Risk, adrenaline, and superhuman focus [124:49–131:06]
• BASE jumping, risk, and the addictive power of absolute focus [113:41–120:08]

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Life After the Military: Lessons & Reflections

• Both men are candid about the loss of identity post-military and the traps of chasing status, money, or recognition.
• Meaning now comes from experience, personal growth, relationships, and “doing cool stuff with the people I love.” – Jay [174:00]
• "I want to have enough saved so I can say no to things, to maximize the yeses for the things I want to do." – Andy [176:04]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• British vs. American humor, language, and sarcasm: [00:00–03:00]
• UFOs, ghosts, and belief: [01:07–07:09]
• Crystals, witchcraft, and alternative spirituality: [06:04–10:50]
• Gun laws in UK vs. US: [14:27–22:04]
• Military transition, clarity and structure: [24:43–33:37]
• SAS selection and injuries: [39:40–47:01]
• Secrecy and the Official Secrets Act: [45:20–52:00]
• Everest and commercial mountaineering: [87:48–102:23]
• Reality TV fame: [80:13–87:23]
• Mental health and social media: [71:02–75:19], [134:41–135:52]
• On giving up risky sports and the search for meaning: [170:01–174:00]

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Memorable Quotes

• "All the support personnel help out. Trying to run a coffee shop is way harder than staffing an assault team." – Andy [26:21]
• "We all struggle with our relationship with money... I want experiences with people I care about over anything else." – Andy [175:30, 176:04]
• "If it's real or not and it has a positive impact on their life, does it matter?" – Andy [08:08]
• "There's something about standing on those edges, zipping up... When you’re thinking about only the next three seconds, the bills don’t matter." – Andy [118:42, 120:14]
• "Meaning now comes from experience, not proving yourself." – Jay [135:14]
• "Freedom isn't free. There's a cost to everything." – Andy [145:58]

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Tone & Takeaways

• Candid, irreverent, and self-aware; both are willing to poke fun at themselves and their former communities.
• Honest look at the highs and lows of special operations service — and at life after it.
• Advocacy for open-mindedness, responsible risk-taking, genuine human connection, and finding balance in a frantic world.

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Where to Find Jay Morton

• Instagram: @j.morton
• Website: conceptexpeditions.com

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode offers a hilarious, heartfelt, and honest look at modern special operations, the lure and limits of adventure, and why fulfillment is more likely to be found in the company of friends than on the summit of Everest or in the pages of a gossip magazine.

Transcript

[A]

Talk about you being, like, having a sense of humor. And I was like, I could never get it on the podcast. And now. Now I'm meeting you. Yeah.

[B]

It's just sarcasm. I'm like, sorry, people, I'm not being serious. I don't actually want him to die. But I kind of, you know, it's like, good, though.

[A]

It's like British humor.

[B]

I deeply love the mastery of the word cunt by British people. It's one of my favorite things about that side of the pond.

[A]

Yeah. The Aussies love it, too.

[B]

I know, but they're backing. Everybody feels like they can't say it as much. They're backing away from it. I'm trying to really get. I'm trying to get a resurgence.

[A]

They say it in a. In a different context. And they said. They say. If we say mate a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They say mate a lot. Yeah. They'll say, say cunt if it's. He's a good or a proper cunt.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Whereas we say it like that.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Yeah. We say degraded. Yes.

[B]

It's how you say it. Hard tea, not hard tea. Yeah.

[A]

It's also that, like a woman's.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Genitals. Which is pretty gross.

[B]

Which Michael's never seen.

[A]

But no clue what you guys are talking about.

[B]

We know. Trust me.

[A]

Penis.

[B]

Are you ready?

[A]

Yeah, we're good.

[B]

Are we? I don't trust him. Where would you like to begin, sir? We're off and running.

[A]

I'm good. I think just random stuff. UFOs. We'll go the road.

[B]

Okay, we'll go, we'll go. I'll give you the intro to what it's like to be on Joe's show. Hey, Jay, Nice to meet you. What do you think about the Illuminati?

[A]

I watched. I watched that film. I can't remember what it was called.

[B]

What was that film called with Tom Hanks? The Angels and Demons one.

[A]

No, what was that film called? I don't know.

[B]

Someone hold that mic close to you. Keep that about it.

[A]

Of course. Yeah. Yep. No idea. It's something about the Illuminati. Triangles. Snakes.

[B]

Triangles are real. And so are snakes. I don't know if that means the Illuminati is real.

[A]

Why does it all. Why does it all come from the us?

[B]

You were saying this on the way over here. When it comes to UFOs, you're saying all the UFOs crash here? I bet you if we dig in hard, Michael immediately Google UK UFO community saying that.

[A]

I think. I think crop circles came from the uk.

[B]

I mean, look at this. That's just a sighting map. Yeah, see, you were talking mad. Now I will be on to. I will be honest. There is a slight difference in intensity and color. Yours looks like the sun, but let's not ignore that. There is a little bit of a light source, mate.

[A]

But I'd hedge my bet to say that all the UFO believes in the UK are probably US citizens or they're influenced by podcasts or US media or.

[B]

Or are all the. Or most of the US UFO believers from the UK who have moved here and they brought their with them because the UK wouldn't tolerate it.

[A]

I don't think we've got that many people in the UK.

[B]

Obviously it's over time.

[A]

Why is it the US why is it the US that love UFOs?

[B]

I don't know why we got a little bit. Australia. Some of the southeastern coast of Australia's lighting off.

[A]

I see. Russia's not allowed to light UFOs.

[B]

I see a few dots and.

[A]

All right, so the website's called Map Porn. Yeah. And it was updated three years ago. So this is legit.

[B]

I feel like it's up to date. I feel like we're cutting edge.

[A]

Can we go on Map Porn's website and see what else they've got maps for?

[B]

There's a reason why I have him log in to Google under his username instead of mine because I'm sure I'm on enough lists anyway, I don't need to have him.

[A]

What's this? Reddit. So it's gotta be legit. 465. Is that likes 108 comments? What are the comments?

[B]

I don't know. What are your thoughts on UFOs?

[A]

I think it's one of those. I don't really care.

[B]

Would you want them to be? Would you want to know that we're not alone in the universe?

[A]

The UFOs?

[B]

Well, just in general. I mean, UFOs are of course tied to, I would assume some intelligent species beyond humans. Right. That's the thing, right? The discovery. Are we alone in the universe? I think it would be a good thing for human. I think it would calm people down a little bit.

[A]

I don't know, I think it make us go into some sort of uproar.

[B]

Isn't that just.

[A]

I think we.

[B]

Don't we just call that Tuesday? I mean, aren't we in the middle of that right now?

[A]

It's Monday morning at 6:00am I mean, I. I don't know. It's like one of those things. I think the same as ghosts, I think, up until you've seen a uf, a UFO or a ghost. With my own eyes, there's millions of people that believe in ghosts, but I've never seen one. So why would I believe in a ghost? Like, what difference does it make in my life if. If I believe in ghosts? Like, what. What does it mean really? Or the afterlife? Like, how do you prove the afterlife?

[B]

You. I don't know if you know this, but I have no answers to anything, really. So we had this podcast. My hosting ability is not based off of intellectual capacity. No, no. I have met. But I have met people who I can say I believe that they would bet everything they have and everything they ever would have on their belief that they did. Does that mean it was a ghost? No, I'm just saying I believe them that they believe. That's all I can say.

[A]

And they're legitimate people, as in, like, they're credible? That's the thing that I don't.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, they. They have jobs, they have friends. They exist in places other than the Internet.

[A]

Do they? Like crystals, Star signs.

[B]

Okay, interesting. I don't know the Venn diagram. Overlap.

[A]

Have you seen a crystal in the house?

[B]

I have a buddy, Greg, who's rowing across the. Do you know Greg Anderson?

[A]

No.

[B]

He's rowing across.

[A]

British or American guy?

[B]

Well, he's American and he's rowing across the Pacific right now in a rowboat with four people. The rowboat was designed, I think, in the uk, though. It's one of these. The team stuff. They go back and forth.

[A]

I think it's Scotland, isn't it, where they're all designed?

[B]

Yeah, it's. They've never had one sink. It's designed to be able to. So I think they're eight or nine days away from Hawaii. They started in Washington. I bet you he had a crystal on that boat. I bet he sends them to me.

[A]

I bet I've got confession. Tell me I'm wearing a crystal right now.

[B]

What's it supposed to do? What is the power you have with the crystal?

[A]

It's called a tiger's eye.

[B]

Yeah, but is it a tiger's eye?

[A]

I had a friend that believes she's a witch.

[B]

This is actually all I want to talk about for the next few hours.

[A]

So you believe in UFOs? I believe.

[B]

I don't believe in UFOs. I. What I'm saying is I've never. I've never been in a place. I've seen plenty of things in my life that I can't explain, but it doesn't. I don't leap to like it must be an alien species. I. I think it would be cool for humanity if we just acknowledged we don't even know how big the known universe is. I think statistically it's unlikely we're alone. I think it would be cool to know. Not saying I want to sit down and have a beer with one, even though I would for sure. I think it would help though. So I don't believe in UFOs, but I. I do want to believe that aliens are real. I'm not saying that I believe that because I have no evidence, but you have a friend that's a witch. Let's focus on the important thing.

[A]

Yeah, she gave it gifted at me. It's called the tiger's eye.

[B]

What does it protect you from?

[A]

I don't know. I travel a lot. So she just went. She gave it to me and said, stick that around your neck and it'll protect you in your travels. Man, I don't know. Pull up what a tiger's eye does.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's got powers.

[B]

Does it?

[A]

It's a rock that was formed that.

[B]

Tiger's eye.

[A]

Mental clarity and focus.

[B]

Yeah. Powerful Chato Yant gemstone. Revered in crystal healing and holistic pr that it is. It's celebrated for its ability to enhance mental clarity, promote courage and self confidence, and provide strong grounding and protective energies. Dude, why doesn't yours look like a

[A]

skull on the bottom, right? I know, it is. It is weird though, isn't it? As in like this witch friend of mine believes that crystals will. She can feel the energy that comes off the crystals.

[B]

So then the question becomes if it's real or not and it has a positive impact on their life. Does it matter?

[A]

No. I agree.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. My auntie's a shaman and we're not

[B]

even remotely talking about what you used to do for a living. We're just going down your family tree and I.

[A]

She's a new shaman, so she's new to it.

[B]

How does one just. Hold on. Lived a completely normal life and woke up on a Tuesday and said, FYI, I am a shaman now.

[A]

I don't think it was a normal life.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, it was.

[B]

It was a non shaman life though, wasn't it?

[A]

Yeah, it was a non. Non. Yeah, non shamanistic life. But she. Oh, she's lovely to be fair. And I. I say this because I'm quite open minded, as are you with uf.

[B]

I can tell already.

[A]

Yeah. And I, I agree with you. It's like. So she lost her husband, my uncle, but she's. She's blood relative. They live out in Sham in the Alps. You might have been there jumping.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

Beautiful place. God.

[B]

Hard to describe.

[A]

It's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. They've got a chalet that my uncle converted. He was out one day cycling, got knocked off his bike. Was probably around 50, 60 years old, died. She's into the outdoors. She's. She's not as crazy as him in terms of climbing, all that kind of stuff, but she likes it and. Yeah. I don't know, just obviously going through grief and stuff.

[B]

Just maybe. I mean, if it's a tool that helps somebody. I am not here to tell people how to live their life, man.

[A]

Big believer of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what? She travels all around the world. She takes like feathers and crystals and rocks and stuff that she's found.

[B]

Yeah, she does, yeah.

[A]

Do you know, it's like, why wouldn't you? What else are you gonna.

[B]

Does she tickle like people's buttholes with the feathers and stuff or what are we talking about?

[A]

Should we ask her? We got her on the phone. What? That'd be better, wouldn't it?

[B]

What type of shaman is she?

[A]

What would happen to the butthole though if you tickled it with a feather?

[B]

It depends on the powers that the feather has.

[A]

Is it a crow? Is it weird that we're talking about my anti tickling buttholes or is that all good? I mean, not for you. It could be for me.

[B]

I don't think it's weird at all.

[A]

Yeah, crows.

[B]

My mind is so far down this rabbit hole. They're smart.

[A]

Crows are smart as hell. Nothing.

[B]

Perhaps an eagle then though. Different powers, I think for different birds.

[A]

I think crows are smarter than an eagle.

[B]

I think.

[A]

Have you not seen that thing where they can hold a grudge for 14 years?

[B]

They'll trade.

[A]

Why is it 14? Why not 15 or 13 or 14.5?

[B]

I don't know. But there's videos of crows that will trade people. They collect things and they'll trade for food and stuff like that. Ravens are very smart too.

[A]

Yeah, crows and ravens.

[B]

I think they're very similar though.

[A]

Yeah. We've got crows on. On the beach where I live. And you see them pick the shells up and they'll drop it on the. Yeah, the floor to try and break it. I wouldn't say that's smart though. We just think it's smart for a bird because we.

[B]

Than some of the Human beings I see walking around every day.

[A]

We've got can openers. We designed the can opener.

[B]

Listen, that doesn't mean all humans understand how to use one.

[A]

There's some absolute retards in the world in there.

[B]

Yeah. One of my favorite words.

[A]

Probably listening to us right now thinking we're.

[B]

We're talking about breaking stuff. We're helping people explore. I mean, we're deep into spirituality at

[A]

this point, big time. We're open minded, ex special forces.

[B]

All right, so you have a shaman in your family. You have a witch friend. Who else are you spending time with? Like in a dinner party at your house going on?

[A]

What else is there?

[B]

Does the witch curse people? What does she do?

[A]

I don't know. Like, because. Why are they all good witches?

[B]

I thought witches weren't actually inherently bad. Right?

[A]

Well, you think so?

[B]

Well, in TV shows, I guess they generally are bad. Michael, what's the word for a good witch?

[A]

Look that up. I'll tell you what. What? I do love the fact that. I don't know. When it was like the Salem witch trials, that era, we basically got sick and tired of women.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In relationships, marriages. So he decided to call them all witches, stick them in water. And if they floated and survived, they were witch.

[B]

And then got burned.

[A]

Yeah. And if they drowned and died are bad. They were a good human being and maybe just a woman.

[B]

I would like to believe that as a species we've evolved since then. I doubt it at some times. I have my concerns. I should say it sometimes.

[A]

I mean, some countries still stone women.

[B]

A white witch is a good witch.

[A]

White witch is a good way.

[B]

We're learning so much together today in

[A]

modern Wicca and contemporary witchcraft practitioners who focus on healing, protective magic and benevolent purposes.

[B]

So what does she do with her powers?

[A]

I have no idea. To be fair, she's got a massive crystal. Huge crystal. She's actually bougie. She's loaded, got loads of cash in the bank.

[B]

This is actually making a little bit more sense right now because she has the time to Explore ridiculous shit.

[A]

100%. She, like, travels around the world. There's ayahuasca, MDMA therapy.

[B]

What does she need therapy from? All of her free time.

[A]

Too many Chanel handbags. I think it's hard. Have you ever had a Chanel handbag, Andy?

[B]

I honestly, if you put one in front of me, if it didn't say Chanel on it, I wouldn't be able to identify it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also though I'm a dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think, do they make him for dude. I bet they do make him for dudes.

[A]

Wow. Where you're from, dudes. Dudes have got the thing now. Have you not seen the dudes that wear. They carry like a bag under their arm? You're not seeing this.

[B]

Listen, we live.

[A]

You've been over into Dubai recently.

[B]

No. No.

[A]

How about this?

[B]

Hard pass. Avoid at all costs.

[A]

Dubai's full of dudes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Louis Vuitton bags under their arms.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like a thing now. I don't even know what they put in it. I've tried to get everything out my pockets.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I just like a phone, maybe some keys.

[B]

I carry a fanny pack because it's an easier way to carry a gun with keys.

[A]

You got a gun in it now? Yeah, of course it is got in it. I love this. We have the shittest gun laws ever in. I mean obviously because 2011. Yeah. Not non airsoft.

[B]

Definitely not airsoft. Oh don't get me wrong, there's plenty of real guns in here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The guest just never knows where they are. I would tell you, you're one of the few guests where if something went down I would just hand you something. We could go to work.

[A]

100%. I love that. I love that.

[B]

But I wouldn't hand it to Michael.

[A]

What do you think about the gun laws in the US or the gun situation?

[B]

It is very complicated and the problem is people are people. It's less about the laws and more about the people.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

When people, you and I have a unique optic where I would describe we had a front row seat towards things that I would consider to be evil or at least the opposite ideology of the western world. And again, I'm not here to tell people how to live their life. But I don't care what law you write. I'm sure there's laws in the UK that say you shouldn't fucking blow yourself up on a double decker bus. But for people who want to do those things, it doesn't matter what the law says. I think reasonable and responsible gun laws are a great thing. The problem in the US is there's about 800 of those already on the books. Adding more laws isn't going to really impact what's happening. I think we need to dive in deeply into mental health.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

I think I wish people would treat them more like what they are, which are tools designed to take life. So if it's not in positive control, put it in a safe. A lot of these things, especially with younger individuals who get involved in the shootings, they. They're either not able to buy it themselves or they get access, you know what I mean? It's just something that's left about as if it's not a lethal object. I would love to see it where gun owners not necessarily have to be required, but almost required to just to have a safe and it doesn't have to be in it at all times, but just reasonable and responsible gun ownership. You know, you and I have seen how guns can stop horrible things, especially when people who want to do horrible things also have guns. I mean, it's very trite to say, you know, how do you stop a bad person with a gun? And that's with a good person with a gun. But there's also an essence of truth to that as well. Well, too, because if you bring a knife to a gunfight, that's a tough one. You know, have you got a lot of people and you can close the distance. What are your thoughts about the gun laws in your country?

[A]

Obviously, having spent plenty of time with weapon systems, I like guns, as in, like, I enjoy getting better at things and I think shooting is one of those really rewarding things where you get better. You can also use something that can protect people, protect people that are vulnerable, protect your family, all that kind of stuff. I mean, look, I would like to see gun laws not be more relaxed, but be a little bit more open to maybe people that served in the military or have experience with weapons. I know, I know. We're probably never going to see a time in the UK where we have gun laws similar to the uk, the US Right now, the kind of gun laws that we've got, you've got to have a reason to have a weapon system. So for example, the shotgun license is the first stepping stone on, on getting a gun license.

[B]

What would they consider to be reasonable to acquire?

[A]

So hunting? Okay, so if you had a shotgun, you'd need to prove or you'd need basically to say that I'm going to use this shotgun for, say, sport shooting clay pigeon, or that, you know, you're going to go and shoot duck or pheasant or whatever it is, and then you've got the actual gun license. So you've got shotgun license and then gun license. We only sell bolt action. And you have to be able to justify what size round you're allowed to have. So you could have a.338, but you've got to be able to justify what you're going to use that.338 for. So for deer stalking, shooting stag or Whatever it is. I've never applied for a gun license. I've got friends that have got gun licenses and you can. So I can go out, shoot and deal with a friend of mine that has a gun license that's legal. But yeah, it's a difficult one because we've never had a gun culture. So all of a sudden to turn around and say that, well, actually shooting handguns are. Shooting rifles is pretty fun. Even just, you know, shooting steels down a range. I think it's more of a selfish point of view. I'd like to shoot more. Yeah, I'm not really shot since leaving the military in 2018. There's obviously a mass amount of skill fade there.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

I'd like to see probably the police go through more rigorous firearms training. I'd like to see more funding being released for that. We're obviously seeing an increase in attacks in the UK now. Yeah, a lot of them are done with knives, like sellotaping the knives to the hands or.

[B]

And not all police in the UK carry guns. Right. It's a particular qualification there. Right?

[A]

Yeah. So it's a specialist firearms officer.

[B]

Dude, that's tough.

[A]

But again, it's. I don't know what the training's like in. In the US for police officers.

[B]

Varies.

[A]

Yeah. Probably state to state. Right. Or precinct to precinct. I'd say in the UK it's pretty. Pretty poor. And like, look, when I. When. I don't know what it was like when you joined the military, but when I went into just the normal army, we call it the green army, you'd see a weapon system on a range maybe six, seven times a year. And even then you wouldn't have that. That many rounds. And then when we first went in the Special Forces, we weren't seeing. I mean, we adopted a lot of stuff from you guys. Yeah, you weren't seeing this onus really being honed in on shooting the weapon system. So it was kind of this, you know, there wasn't a lot of focus on, you know, dialed in strategic shooting. It was more just every now and then we just get a load of rounds and just go down to the range and interesting and shoot. And only really kind of probably I joined in or I was in the SAS in 2009, probably around four years on from that. So probably early 2000s in Afghanistan, we're seeing how you guys operated. We went over to Fort Bragg, used Delta's facilities over there. And then we just saw this kind of big influx of money. Like all our kit got better night vision Got better. Kit and equipment got better, a lot lighter. We were seeing like cry precision stuff come in the cage.

[B]

Super cheap stuff.

[A]

Yeah, super cheap. For the military, right?

[B]

I mean, $800 top and bottoms, like wild man, like.

[A]

And the cage is what? I don't know. And the helmet system, I don't even know. It's crazy. And then the night vision, all that.

[B]

Crazy for sure.

[A]

And all the people get in.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Backhanders off the back of it. And the procurement system.

[B]

There's some nepotism involved in that for sure. Yeah. No, there were some people who, not that I don't want people to make money, but there were some people who made a lot of money off the back of the GWAD.

[A]

For sure. 100%.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I, I, I wasn't on it, but we had, it's quite interesting actually. We, we were using, I have no idea what they're called, but the, the dual tube NBC4 tubes. Yeah, no, sorry. Just the two tubed binocular, we just call them.

[B]

They were probably PVS 15s.

[A]

So we were using the ones with the green. When we went to Fort Bragg, to Deltas, their first operation, their initial operation where it all got dusted out by the helo. I can't remember exactly what happened on it, but they had a mannequin in their museum and he had a set of the night vision that we were using.

[B]

You're talking about Desert One, the origin of jsoc.

[A]

Kiddo, mate, we were all just like, are they the same ones that we're using now? Obviously, like, that's changed since I left. That was for sure. And that all comes down to finances.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You guys have got a massive pocket.

[B]

You know what's changing even more, though, is now the enemy has those.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That is a different ball game, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you imagine? Did you ever think, even when you got out in 2018, did you ever think about drone warfare? Like the stuff going on in Ukraine? I never once fathomed, basically a DJI drone flying at me, weaponized. Never. I never thought about it a single time.

[A]

And like, for us not to have some sort of defense in that, I don't know if there is now. I've not got much talk about.

[B]

You guys got your shotgun license. Get out there.

[A]

I'll just take.

[B]

That's what they're. Some of those people are doing that. And if that's all you had, I salute you, sir.

[A]

Yeah, and I think, I think equally, it's like the scary thing is that they're producing this DJI drone with a 40 mic, 40 millimeter bomb in the bottom of it that just flies into a target. We're then spending millions to try and counteract that. Whereas they're spending. It's a DJI drone.

[B]

They're not even DJI anymore. I think a lot of the production is actually coming straight from Ukraine. They have a full infrastructure just to build those things.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

3D printing stuff, making the motherboards themselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there a lot of them are the command wire, so the jamming stuff doesn't work. I mean, I was in.

[A]

I was actually in Dubai when it kicked off over there.

[B]

Yeah. And why are you over in Dubai so much? What do you got going on? Espionage, obviously, but UFOs?

[A]

I'm converting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, I was just going over there during the winter. Like our. Our winter in the UK are pretty crap.

[B]

Is that a common vacation place for the uk?

[A]

It is, yeah. But it's got a stigma around it. Very flashy, all that kind of stuff. I had a friend that was going back and forth, he had a business over there and, yeah, I just popped on one of his trips and ended up just going. Going over there during the winter, it's like, easy to go. It's hot, warm.

[B]

Yeah. I've been to the airport. I've been through the airport a few times. I've never actually left the airport in Dubai.

[A]

Yeah. It's an interesting place. Tax free.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's, you know, financial reasons to go and set up a business over there. I don't know if you know what it's like in the UK right now, but we get into Smashed with taxes

[B]

and it's like that here. Depending on. Well, it's depending on who you are and what you're up to. And quite frankly, if you can afford to have a really good tax professional.

[A]

Yeah, Same in the uk, to be fair.

[B]

Yeah. The people. What was I reading earlier today? Wealthy people pay accountants, rich people pay politicians. There was something else and it was like the average person pays taxes, wealthy people pay accountants, rich people pay politicians. I feel like that that might exist just about everywhere.

[A]

It's crazy, isn't it? Because I. I don't know, we never had a normal job growing up.

[B]

I thought it was super normal in comparison to the people I was working with. It seemed normal.

[A]

Yeah. It's so weird, isn't it? I always look at. How long did you spend in the.

[B]

17 years.

[A]

17 years? Yeah, I did 14 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's weird because you don't know Any different. Correct.

[B]

You, like, to me, it was like, this is what we do on Tuesday.

[A]

Let's go. And then you come out and everyone's just like, oh, man. Our Special Forces thing. Like, what did you do? What was Afghanistan like? And you're like, I don't know. It's just like a job, regular job. You just turned up, went to work, did the best you could, and then.

[B]

Yes, that's a good description of it, actually.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You hope not to make mistakes, hope not to do anything wrong, hope to conduct yourself the best that you could. Sometimes it was hilarious, sometimes it sucked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you could apply that to almost every job.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like it was like some of my best memories. Same, like, love the job.

[B]

I loved the job. I also loved the clarity of focus and mission statement. And, you know, I was never involved in the strategic planning or the operational planning. We would, you know, we would lift and shift over there, and you'd work for the Battlespace commander. And they're like, here's your target deck. Okay. Here's the guy we're after. Okay. Here's where he might be. Okay. That's. I mean, there's a few times in my life where I guess I was responsible for so little, but so much at the same time. So little meaning. Such a direct focus. So much meaning if you took the wrong actions, it could be catastrophic or a global incident, depending on what you might have done wrong. But, yeah, in many ways, way simpler than a lot of the stuff that I've done out of the military. More dangerous, for sure, but consequential, but way easier, especially with all the support personnel to help out. I mean, yeah, it's owning a coffee shop. Trying to figure that out is way harder than staffing. But I don't know how to design a building. I don't know. I don't know. How many seats do you need? How many espresso? How much. How much coffee should you buy? I don't know. I'm figuring all this stuff out as you go. Charge that it does help from time to time, or Claude, depending, I guess.

[A]

I guess it didn't exist when you were now saying black rifle up.

[B]

No, it was some of my best memories, for sure. And all. Some of the most horrific times of my life and absolutely, without a doubt, some of the most fulfilled and hilarious times of my life as well.

[A]

Yeah, I completely agree. Completely agree. Yeah, I. I loved it, like, similar to you. There's something quite. I don't know, there's something quite nice about especially Being a man, just waking up in the morning, knowing where you've got to be, knowing what you've got to do, slotted into a team, you know, knowing where you go and eat. It's. I say to Evan, it was like the easiest job that I ever had.

[B]

Yeah, you just have to perform.

[A]

Yeah. Everything is, is built around you. Like, if you need to get to an airport, there's a coach. If you need to fly, someone books your flight. If you need a passport, change and so on, you know, dental, doctors, all that kind of stuff. It's like, oh, what do you want me to do? I'll carry this ladder across this span of land and stick it up against the wall. Well, sure. I don't need a brain cell for that. You want me to react if something happened? Yeah, cool, man. Yeah, it was. But yeah, it was the funniest time for sure.

[B]

Like, yeah, I think it's hard. Maybe not hard is the correct word. Challenging. Leaving that world where you have such support and things were built in based around you. The greater you, meaning you and the team that you were with, or the mission statement and intent associated with that, you leave and then you have to figure it out on your own.

[A]

Yeah, that's the difficult bit in it.

[B]

Yeah. There's nobody there to say, hey, this

[A]

is what you should do, or no one.

[B]

No. Or to support you either. You might know what you want to do. Like, hey, where's the guy who does this for me? Oh, yeah, just go into the bathroom and look in the mirror. Where's the guy who does this same thing? You'll see him in the bathroom when you look in the mirror.

[A]

And I find it with like, you've got so many choices. It's deciding which one you want to commit to and go all in on. Because, like, coming out of the. Coming out of Special Forces especially, and I don't know, it's like over here, probably similar coming out of the UK Special Forces. It's like, there's only a small amount of us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you kind of learn enough whilst you're in to be able to apply yourself, you know, all those kind of like little bits of discipline and all that kind of stuff that you kind of absorb while serving at a, you know, high functioning military unit, like the Special Forces kind of gives you everything that you need to then set up in civilian street. But I find then you come out and you're like, well, what do I do? It's like you've got all these options. It's like this one's pretty cool. I'll do this for a bit. Oh, this one's pretty cool. I'll just do this for a bit. What was.

[B]

What was your strategy when you got out? Did you know what you wanted to do?

[A]

I was probably more looking for the exit and something that would kind of facilitate that. Yeah. So I was in mountain troop, and part of that I went and lived in the Alps in Germany and completed a mountain guides course. So it was two years with the. The German army. No one spoke English. It was all in German. I don't know if you checked their sense of humor recently, but it's so

[B]

Michael and I do jiu jitsu with it. I was rolling with him today, powerfully. German, man, he cracks me up.

[A]

Yeah, I love it.

[B]

Just the literalness and the precision.

[A]

Yeah. This is like, no sense. It's interesting when started learning German and picking it up a little bit, you'd be like, sat having breakfast or whatever, and one of the guys would tell a joke, and you're able to follow it because my German had got pretty good. And you get to the end of the joke and all the Germans are laughing, and you just be sat there going, okay, what was the. What was the punchline? I feel like all you've done is just tell this story. And it just. It was a story. It was like, oh, I got up this morning, got in a car, drove to work. Some guy came out and said this, and they're all like, like, what did I miss,

[B]

man? Two years with them. Wow. Well, I bet you left knowing a hell of a lot about guiding.

[A]

It's a good life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it was probably the hardest thing that I ever did. Just because the amount of pressure that's put on onto you by the regiment, they spend a lot of money. It's like two years away from operational deployment.

[B]

Do they expect you to come back with that knowledge and then be the subject matter experts each other?

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's the whole point of it. But, yeah, I mean, it was amazing. And I think that was a little bit of the catalyst of me leaving the military was being in the mountains. You know, I was a kid that grew up in just a normal urban town in the north of England called Preston. Nothing to do. It was like you drank cider on the streets and got into fights. That's like your upbringing. And all of a sudden I'm like, in. In the mountains. It's like, you know. You know what that's like here in Montana, It's a different way of life.

[B]

And it's not quite the Alps, but I get what you're saying.

[A]

It's different, though, here. Do you know? It is different.

[B]

Yeah. The Alps are. You have to see to be able to even try to describe the course.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean. But, yeah, I think that was like a trigger in my brain to go, like, there's something more than soldiering out here. And then it was, you know, I came back from that, went straight out on operational deployment and, you know, and all the lads are just moaning when you get out there. It was like that. And I was just like, the. Am I doing here? It's like, literally just went from skiing in Andamat in Switzerland, like downhill skiing and ski tour, into being out on operational theater. And just all the lads are just. But, yeah, I think that kind of planted a seed in my head of, right, there's something out here. And it was really just waiting for an opportunity. I had to give four years back to the regiment. Got to the end of the four years, and I don't know if you've seen a British brand called Through Dark. Yes.

[B]

I bought one of the geese for my son, actually.

[A]

Wicked. Yeah. So Staz and Louis, they set Through Dark up and, yeah, they were just like, do you want to come on board with Through Doc?

[B]

So as an ambassador type role?

[A]

No, I came in as. So we coined it, like, expedition leader.

[B]

Okay. I'm only familiar with. Honestly, I found them. Tom Hardy. Tom Hardy was wearing one of their geese or made a post about one, and my son saw it and he's like, dad, this is amazing. All right, I'll get you one. It was cool. I think he still has it. He's bigger than he's now, larger than he can wear it, but.

[A]

How old is your son?

[B]

He is going to turn 21.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

In August. He's probably getting close to being a purple belt. He's, you know, he's living his young man's life.

[A]

Wow, man, that's good.

[B]

Yeah. But he loved it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I got him the gear and he took a little bit of time to get across the pond, as things do. But, yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't. I didn't realize they had a full experiential side of Through Dark as well.

[A]

They did, yeah. I ended up leaving for. For some reasons. But, yeah, the brand's amazing. You should check it out. Like 2x special forces lads. Yeah. So, yeah, that was cool.

[B]

For anybody in the jiu jitsu game, specifically. Just the designs. They're just. They look awesome.

[A]

They look sick. Yeah, they look like. You don't see any of them.

[B]

It was the black on black one that I got him, and he loves it. Yeah.

[A]

Why did you.

[B]

Why did you leave the military? Yeah, my body was at the place. It was a combination of things. So my last operational tour in 2010, I almost. I rolled my ankle so badly. So I got shot in the hip in 2005 and have nerve damage in my left leg from that. And my rolling my ankle is like the bane of my existence. And we were doing a lot of offset stuff, so walking the largest distance. And, dude, I almost had to medevac myself twice for rolling my ankle so bad. And I had switched over from being enlisted to an officer. And after that deployment, I had to sit with myself and really say, are you able to do this or have you become the biggest liability? Of course, then. So that was one aspect when I got back there. There's. Literally at the time, there was a single woman who was a civilian who managed all of the officer billets. There was an active duty officer attached to her, but he rolls every 24 months. So the. The power broker is the woman who has known the admiral since they were ensigns. And I called her and I said, you know, what does this look like? And she said, oh, you'll have to do this and then this and then this and then this and then you can come back. I'm like, I can't. Like, the body is not going to do that. So I think it was just more than anything, one that that career trajectory no longer seemed appealing at all with the fact that the body for that job. I was worried I was going to become the weak link when it came to capability. So I actually was just going to exit the military five days away from just leaving. And I went to go get my discharge physical, which is a spoiler alert for people, is not the way to do that. Go get your physical way before five days. Because the doctor said, I'm not signing this. So they sent me for a bunch of additional testing.

[A]

And why is that? Sorry, what's the. What's the process? Because I think our process might be similar, but we call stuff different.

[B]

Well, you could probably do that if you had gone to medical and documented a bunch of stuff along.

[A]

Okay, so get a medicine.

[B]

So my record was about ridiculous. Ridiculously thin. And the doctor knew enough.

[A]

Sorry, is that because you didn't want to.

[B]

I never wanted to take my foot off the gas.

[A]

Yeah, I had a similar. Similar thing.

[B]

Yeah. And so because you don't Want to be the wing clink?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

And also.

[A]

And. And for yourself personally. Right.

[B]

I was just gonna say fear of missing out is huge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, this mission is gonna be the same as the next one, but I have to go on the mall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have to be there.

[A]

And a bit of pride, right? You don't feel broken or.

[B]

But then you get to the tail end and you have no documentation to show what your body has actually absorbed. So the guy sent me to a civilian facility, actually. It's called nico, The National Intrepid center of Excellence, which at the time was at Walter Reed. There's still one there. I think there's one on the west coast. It was 30 days. The best medical treatment I've ever received. Every test, blood work, hearing psychologists, psychiatrist, sleep studies, all the, you know, the shit all over your head. They're like, let's put all this on you, and then we need you to try to sleep. I'm like, this study sucks, by the way. I'm not. I don't know if I could sleep good before, but I'm definitely not going to sleep good with all this shit on my head.

[A]

I know what makes you sleep well.

[B]

Booze. I think that makes me passive.

[A]

Imagine that in the. In the sleep study, guys just. Yeah.

[B]

Or Ambien.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I went there, and based off of that, the doctor who didn't want to sign the paperwork, he knew what the tail end was going to be. So it's. It's a. It's a paperwork process. There's an actual pro. It's called. In the military, the US Military, the PEB MEB Process. Physical Evaluation Board, Medical Evaluation Board board. A bunch of paperwork, which I filled out a bunch. All of the specialist stuff, anything medically related, and you take it and you. And it was at a hospital, is it Balboa Hospital in San Diego. And you hand it to a dude, dude, he had a stack of these things really fucking floor to ceiling. Like, what does this take? Six years. How long? Heard back in about eight months. And they said, here's your rating. You're going to be medically retired. You have up to 90 days to go ahead and sort how you want to exit. But that was the result. So it's. If you go down that pathway about. It's about 12 months of administrative stuff

[A]

you got to do, and that's a full medical discharge. So you get the pension and that kind of stuff. Medical pension.

[B]

I get disability, not a pension. Because of being medically retired. You can get a combination of both. But with my rating, it's a disability check versus a retirement check.

[A]

Yeah, we have similar thing to what you said. It's like on selection, I like smashed my backup. I picked up. We, we go to the jungle of Brunei and like one, obviously if you've probably been to the jungle, it's like one of the hardest environments to operate in. And we're in there for six weeks. The final part of it is four weeks, just fully tactical. And the final attack is this. You go hard routine for like the final week. So you're sleeping on floors, eating cold rations, all that kind of stuff. And then the final attacks, a camp attack on I think the Gurkhas or whatever play enemy. And yeah, the biggest guy on selection was this, this officer, I won't say his name, big dude, like ex rugby player. And he goes down as a casualty, obviously a role play casualty. And I was stood next to him. So straight away, you know, I'm like three power. I don't know if you know, like airborne unit in the uk, it's like we pride ourselves on carrying the most kit and like being able to do, do everything. I'm like, that's good for a long life. Yeah, like, like throw on my shoulder. And as soon as he goes on my shoulder, my back just popped. Like I felt it pop.

[B]

And so of course, say nothing to anybody.

[A]

Say nothing.

[B]

Because you don't want to fail selection.

[A]

Exactly. Literally that. Literally you don't want to be rolled

[B]

back or have to repeat it again. So you say nothing.

[A]

Literally that didn't say anything. Obviously. Told all the lads on selection. They knew anyway because I couldn't walk. Did the rest of the selection. So we came back from that. You go on what's called sr, so Surveillance and Reconnaissance. It's done out of Hereford. You break down into teams and then you deploy into certain areas of Hereford. We deployed into this farm. And then you observe the building and there's scenarios played out in the farm and you pass back all the information and obviously like op kit, it's like heavy as, as like carrying shovels and. Oh yeah, all excavating kit and chicken wire, of course, sandbags and all that kind of stuff. So like the rucksack was. The bergen was pretty heavy. And then obviously it pissed down the first night. So we're trying to navigate through all this. It's like UK countryside, my back screaming at me. It's quite funny actually. I spoke to my mate who's just getting out now and he was like, mate, remember that time on Surveillance reconnaissance. Because we were trying to find a bush hide, do you know? Yeah, it's like the easiest one, right. You can get to a bush. You don't have to do any camp.

[B]

You can church it up a little bit to make it so people can't see. But, yeah, you don't have to construct something out of nothing.

[A]

Of course. Like, we've been trying to find a bush all night, and the bush that we thought we'd found was decent. And daylight comes up and we're, like, watching the target and the ds. The instructor just. We just literally hear him behind us. He's like, what the is this, lads? We're, like, lying. We were literally lying in the open with, like, camera systems and weapons and that.

[B]

Yeah, hey, man, I look better at night, basically.

[A]

It wasn't a bush hide. It wasn't even a bush. I think it was some nettles that we'd managed to find and. And rest in. But he gave us our dues and just said, right, lads, there's a place there. It's got good eyes on. He's like, dig subsurface. He's like, you've got all day. So he dug this whole subsurface. There was. I think it was four of us, I think. So we had, like, two. Supposed to be two guys at the front observing the target at all times. One guy resting and one guy on rear sentry. And it literally pissed down for, like, the next. We're in the hole for a week. It pissed down that whole week. And I was like, thank God we didn't go. Go in a bush hide. Like, everyone that went in the bush hide got piss wet through all the kitten equipment got wet. And, yeah, we were literally in this whole, like, warm. Then we kind of scrapped the two. Two guys on the front. We just had, like, one guy there because we're all so tired.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, literally, if you're on rear sentry, you just kept falling asleep and then waking up. But, yeah, lived in a hole for a week.

[B]

Very Bravo Two Zero.

[A]

Yeah. Eating, smearing on the walls.

[B]

Yeah, that was later in the story. Hopefully you guys didn't have that.

[A]

What do you. Did you read Bravo Two Zero?

[B]

I did, yeah. I feel like the movie.

[A]

A lot of controversy over it. Where.

[B]

Well, so from the outsider, much. Like some. I'm sure some of the stories that you read of us, it's. You can tell if it's.

[A]

I didn't know you had stories out

[B]

of the US we don't have that many yet. There's some on the horizon. There's not a lot right now.

[A]

I heard they're made in Hollywood. Right.

[B]

It's like sometimes the story, sometimes you would. If it was a tactical blunder, we would both understand it. But reading Bravo Two Zero, I don't understand all of the nuance or what necessarily may look right. So it's hard to say. I wouldn't know necessarily where the controversy is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I read it years ago. I read it when I was at school, and it just seems like a good story. Yeah, I think, obviously it was way before my time. It was Gulf War.

[B]

Oh, for same.

[A]

Yeah, one or Gulf War II, I think.

[B]

I think Golf War One.

[A]

You're talking 90s.

[B]

Yeah, it was in the 90s. Yeah, I think so.

[A]

One of the guys, Dinga, I'll say his name because it says in the book, I think. I'm pretty sure he's called Dinger in the book. It's called Dinga now. He's still hanging around. But, yeah, Andy. Andy McNabb or whatever his real name is. I don't know. There's some weird internal controversy where, yeah, some of the story didn't line up. Some of the story's not all that true or the. The truth was bent a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Obviously, two of them came out and spoke about it. There was two or three of them or whatever there was that didn't speak about it. So I think it was, you know, early 90s or whenever the book was written, it wasn't really the done thing to. To come out publicly that you're in the. The sas, the Special Forces. So I think there's a lot of, like, a lot of hatred or a lot of, like, negative press on that. But look, I mean, I'm sure Andy McNabb's made a career out of being an author, and he's probably made quite a bit of money off that. That book. And, you know, if anything, I always say this. Now, it's like, Bravo Two Zero, you know, put a lot of eyes on the Special Forces. And it did so for the right reasons. You know, it wasn't. People didn't read that book and just go, are these guys doing. It's like.

[B]

You read those. Inspirational.

[A]

Inspirational, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it's always gonna be a good thing that that stuff's out there. Similar to the. The films that. That you guys are.

[B]

They're not all great.

[A]

I mean. I mean, I like it.

[B]

I mean, if you look at them as entertainment, they're fantastic. If you look at them As a documentary. It's a problem. My call sign on my last deployment was Bravo Two Zero.

[A]

Seriously? Yeah.

[B]

On my pass.

[A]

Yeah. How does that work? Is that B Squadron or something?

[B]

No, it was the platoon. And then your position. It's just this stupid numerical way.

[A]

Yeah, we had Simpson. This mine was like Alpha 1 Juliet.

[B]

Totally. Yeah.

[A]

I'd say Juliet every time on the

[B]

net I would just say, hey, this is Andy.

[A]

Yeah. My God, you can't see your name, mate. Like, hey, if UFOs are listening, if

[B]

the Taliban has a 148 embitter in the right crypto, we have bigger problems than them knowing my name. How so? It's interesting, I didn't realize that the UK government will not confirm or deny as to whether or not you guys were part of the sas. What's. How is it? It's almost as if they'll say nothing about it. And why is that?

[A]

Well, I don't know. I think you signed the Official Secrets Act.

[B]

What is that all about? First off, just tell me the secrets associated with the act and then.

[A]

Witches are real. Yeah. Aliens have London in the uk.

[B]

We've already. Yes, we've established this. This is true. I get that. I'm probably not. Don't disclose any. Any national security items, means or ways, tactics, techniques and procedures.

[A]

I mean, you must. You must sign something similar. Right. To go secret. Top secret. What's it called? Strat? No, it's called Strat or is.

[B]

We had. So there are secret clearances. Top Secret. The highest one I ever had was the top Secret sci, which is small read ins into covered programs that were completely underwhelming. I'm not saying I was read into all of them, but the two that I was read into you could find on Google. People just don't know what to look for, I don't think though. So there was a lot of paperwork associated with the Top Secret clearance and I had an interim clearance for about 18 months. It took a long time for them to do the background check. But I don't remember signing an NDA associated with receiving the clearance. I just had to my badge changed at the command because I believe it was a dashed line while you were interim.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then a solid line once you got the official clearance.

[A]

Yeah, I mean we don't sign an NDA. We sign the Official Secrets Act. Once you get into the Special Forces, I think probably historically a lot of the operations were deniable. Like the whole, you know, the history behind the Special Forces back in the day when. When Sterling founded it it was all deni. Deniable operations, cross enemy lines, so.

[B]

Which is dope, by the way. Yeah.

[A]

You watched the. You read up about the early missions. It's so fucking awesome. Yeah, amazing.

[B]

Who knows how to jump out of a plane? Nobody.

[A]

Let's do it. Let' Everyone broke the legs. Amazing. Yeah, let's do it again.

[B]

Yeah, we're figuring this out.

[A]

I mean, there's this book that we've got in the squadron lines called. I'm pretty sure it's like the SAS war, War Diary. And it's like this thick and it's like every operation that the SAS has ever conducted since the start of the sas. But yeah, back to. So, yeah, sign the Official Secrets act and then I don't know.

[B]

And what do you sign when you get out?

[A]

Are you still into it?

[B]

Oh, okay. So that's the lifelong NDA that they're talking about. Okay.

[A]

I think it runs out. I believe it runs out when you're like 55 or something. I'm not. I'm not sure what it.

[B]

Well, that could be interesting because if you came in later in life, the secrets might still be a little fresh.

[A]

I don't think it's age. I think it's. It runs out maybe time after you exit time. Yeah, I guess. I. I get it. We've got. I don't know about. You guys don't have. I'm giving too much away now. We've got a section of the military that kind of oversees guys that are now civilians and. And what they say and where they go and what they do.

[B]

We definitely don't have that.

[A]

Yeah, almost. And what do you mean by overseas?

[B]

They kind of just keep tabs on them.

[A]

Yeah, look, I. We're all relatively. You kind of know what you can say and you can't say, like, for example, I can't come on a podcast and talk about a day in a certain country that we conducted a shriek. Yeah, we whisper it. But do you know what I mean? It's like, I think going to that level of details, or for example, the big one for us was. Was TTPS and discussing how we do operations overseas.

[B]

That should be a no brainer for anybody even remotely peripheral to that. Just keep that stuff to your.

[A]

But you know, you know, and I know there's some people in the military that would. Do they see people even write a book on that kind of stuff, if they're allowed.

[B]

I see people on Instagram showing relatively accurate, pretty high speed room clearance stuff that, I don't know, needs to be on there.

[A]

I agree. Agree. But people do it for likes, right? Or people do it for whatever it is that.

[B]

The thing is, I get that it can be done for likes, but that information can also be reverse engineered. And that's the issue that I have with it. I'm not saying you can't teach people that stuff, but maybe have some level of vetting and make them come to you and make sure that for law enforcement, sure. I would open up probably 98% and be like this is how we did this and this is why we did this. And the other 2% would probably be based on ROEs anyway. Think like hey, in this situation instead of a 9 banger we might throw a frag. You shouldn't do that cause you're a cop. So we'll leave that TTP out of this. But in person for people who are doing the job. I get that. Putting it up on the Internet for likes. Again, I'm not here to tell people how to live their life. I personally would never feel comfortable doing that.

[A]

Yeah, me neither.

[B]

Yeah. I think you have to protect those things and the people still doing the job to the best of your ability.

[A]

Agree. But I mean look, we live in this world now where social media is like a massive part of. Of the the world that we live in and it's.

[B]

I've already got. I just figured out the solution to this. You and I are going to start a company and all we're going to do is up CQB on the Internet. We will show the most. We'll start by just pointing guns at each other's heads.

[A]

What are we wearing though?

[B]

Cry.

[A]

No, I think there's got to be something. Overalls, big penis. Costumes.

[B]

No, we have to look incredibly serious.

[A]

Yeah. And then just be it massive beards, long hair, everything dyed eyebrows.

[B]

Everything will be picture perfect uniform wise. And we will up.

[A]

We'll be.

[B]

We'll go the other way with it.

[A]

Can we do it? What would you call it like white.

[B]

White pistol, tier 1 something white pistol tea. I don't know. We'd have to go. It'd be like SEAL Team or some.

[A]

I love that. Like I just sat drinking tea and you're just, I don't know, drinking bourbon or something like. What do Americans do? Shout?

[B]

It depends.

[A]

Talk.

[B]

Yeah, sometimes.

[A]

I love America though. It's amazing.

[B]

How often do you come over?

[A]

We train quite a lot over here. So San Diego, Fort Hunter, Liggett.

[B]

I'm very familiar.

[A]

Yeah. Do all our parachuting out there.

[B]

Okay. Military stuff. I'm Assuming.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we come over probably once or twice a year.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

I've done some trips up like the California coast. My, my best friend got married in Greensboro over that side. I was his best man. Amazing wedding. Brilliant. Loved it. Yeah. Crazy. Just like we, we all like. I was best man. All the, the other SBS guys are like groomsmen obviously in a town like Greensboro. With a British accent. Yeah. It goes a long way.

[B]

It does, it does.

[A]

It's such a good party.

[B]

I have another good friend I do Jiu Jitsu with. I just call him Kunto.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because of his mastery of the word.

[A]

Maybe we call ourselves the Kunta.

[B]

He.

[A]

We could.

[B]

He actually answers to it now. He'll snap my kanto and he's like, what's up?

[A]

I'm over here.

[B]

Was. So, okay, you said sb, what's the difference between SAS and sbs? And I'm sure you get asked that a bunch, but on the US side, I don't think a lot of the audience would understand the difference between the two.

[A]

Well, I guess you guys have got SEALS and Delta.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You got development group and one is

[B]

in the army, one is in the Navy.

[A]

Yeah. Similar to SKS and sas, I think. Don't quote me on this. I believe so the SBS is mainly funneled in from the Marines. So Royal Marines, which are a sector of the Navy.

[B]

Same here.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not 100% sure if the SBS is still under the Navy bracket or the SBS and the SAS are just covered under UK Special Forces. I think that's the case. SAS obviously was the og, so Special Air Service, we would predominantly. It was more air based operations. So helicopters, parachute and SBS were brought in cockle shell heroes to conduct special forces operations in maritime situations.

[B]

It actually sounds really similar to where.

[A]

It's exactly the same jsoc. Yeah.

[B]

It's by doctrine, you know, maritime lineage, army lineage. That makes sense.

[A]

Okay. And you know, I think now it's like we both do the same selection. I don't know if that's the same for you guys.

[B]

No, the CAD guys do their own and the development group guys do their own as well.

[A]

Yeah. So. So we do the, the same selection process.

[B]

Do you know going into that whether you're going to go to SAS or sbs? Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So it's only SAS and SBS candidates that go on that selection process.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We've also got probably similar to you guys, the tier, tier 2, tier 3 units, SRR Specialist Reconnaissance Regiment. And then we've got like some support crew and stuff. Like that. So, yeah, you kind of go on the same selection process and then at the end you go your separate ways. Obviously, if you look at operational theaters in the time that we were in, you pretty much do the same job role anyway. Yeah. So there's, there's kind of no differentiation.

[B]

There's a whole lot of maritime action going on.

[A]

Nothing. There's a little bit now there.

[B]

Yeah, there really is. Yeah.

[A]

The old Moscow mules.

[B]

I'm gonna sniff the Straits of Hormuz.

[A]

It's a crazy world right now, isn't it?

[B]

I sometimes.

[A]

Would you want to be in still?

[B]

I don't. You know, I served. When I came in, it was a Democratic president and then a Republican and then a Democrat and it never really changed the job that much. To me. I believed in why I was serving. It was less to do with the global. I don't understand global foreign policy and the peacocking and, you know, it's not

[A]

really in it and I think so.

[B]

I think so. I can't say that.

[A]

Ego, power, all that kind of stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I've never touched those circles, so I can't say for sure. I just tried to focus on my job and I love the job. If I was physically able to, I mean, I'm timed out at this point, but I would still go back and do it again. I would. If given the choice and it was, you know, 15 years later and I'd be serving during this time period, I would still do. So. It's, I mean, it's, it's, it's different for sure. I mean, I'm watching videos now of guys, you know, we used to flip down our nods. They're flipping down FPV goggle stuff on their mounts, man.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Air drones in inside internal structures, ground based drones. I think my worst nightmare would be one of those robot dogs with just a machine gun on the back walking down a hallway.

[A]

Hey, did you see a robot climb the mountain the other day? Do you see that? But then I don't know sometimes if that, that's true because like half the

[B]

it's going to be true at some point. And then we're going to work for them for our water ration. We're. So at some point, like AI is

[A]

going to take over the world, isn't it? It's like Claude. I don't even know what Claude. Like this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that Fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Claude's crazy. That new Claude Fable.

[B]

They shut it down five or whatever. They shut it down.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Michael, pull this up? The US government shut Fable 5 down.

[A]

Yeah. Because it didn't work the other day. I was trying to.

[B]

I know. I was trying to build. Because they doubled my usage coins.

[A]

I was trying to build Snake. I just wanted to build Snake it because it was too powerful. The US Government.

[B]

The US Government shut it down because

[A]

it was too much.

[B]

Let me take that back. I don't want to over get over my skis. I think that they positioned it in a way that. What is. Michael? Is Claude Anthropic? Just to make sure.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I believe that Anthropic made the decision to pull it down, but they had sent some parameters where basically that was the only choice. All right, Michael, click on this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To abruptly suspend access to its newly launched Cloud 5 Fable and Mythos 5 AL models, the Commerce Department issued an emergency directive citing national security risks and export control. So that's what it was. Export control laws. I'm not even gonna. I can read those words. I don't know what the fuck that means.

[A]

A total block on foreign national access to models. So the US can use it or.

[B]

No. And so that was the issue. You have to restrict this from being used anywhere other than the U.S. how do you do that?

[A]

Because anyone just uses a vpn.

[B]

You pull it down and you know what I mean? So they put them in a place where you're gonna be. We're gonna come after you unless you shut down this access to anybody else in the world. There's no mechanism to do that. So they pull it off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I used it for about a day. It was pretty dope.

[A]

I never used it. I use the opus or whatever.

[B]

Opus 4.8.

[A]

Of course. It's so weird. Like, it's actually making me speak right. Right now. It's such a weird thing though, isn't it? I was. I was bored at an airport the other day, and I don't know, I'm in this group of, like, a load of mates and we talk about. We basically think we're traders, but we're not.

[B]

Yeah, It's a good way to lose money.

[A]

Yeah. Literally, it's just gambling, but it's fun. And my mate put this video, and it's a YouTube guy, and he's basically saying that you can build like a trading platform that looks at what U.S. congress, people in U.S. congress are buying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I sat there at an airport, my flight was delayed and I built this. I built a platform that basically tracked. So say for example, if Nancy Pelosi bought Apple stock, it pinged up on my, my platform.

[B]

She's a good trader.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe she's one to watch and she now I do what Trump buys.

[B]

She's only got a year left, so she's got a.

[A]

But she's still got access to it, right?

[B]

Yeah, but she doesn't have to report any more trades, so. And there's like a, I think a 30 day lag in when she can make a trade to report. No, there's a. I have no association with this app, I'm just familiar with it and it's called Autopilot and you can put money in and they have a fund literally called the Pelosi Fund. Michael, can you pull up the returns for.

[A]

This is a US thing. Do you like a best stock market?

[B]

No, it scares the shit out of me.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It doesn't when you win?

[B]

I like. Well, that never happens.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

What I like to really do is buy high and sell low. Yeah.

[A]

The, the WhatsApp group that we've got is called. Oh, it's Sell the dip.

[B]

Oh God. My problem is I buy the dip and then it dips more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

See if you can find it. Michael.

[A]

I've had to do that thing that all traders, that process that all traders go through is when they, they stop emotionally buying stock and selling stock.

[B]

Yep. I can pull it up because I have Autopilot. I'm not in that fun, but I like Autopilot. It's interesting to me here. The Pelosi Tracker is up 233.9%.

[A]

And I'd imagine this is a U.S. stock because we can't buy off the U.S. stocks, which is a bit annoying.

[B]

How come?

[A]

Dunno. Like I'm on a UK platform and for some reason I put, I put like random US companies on that. I see Trump's just tweeted about.

[B]

Look at that shit.

[A]

Your livestock on the, on the right 33.

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Or 523 million? I wish.

[B]

Pelosi tracker? No, I'm not in the Pelosi Tracker, but it's interesting. Okay, so this Kramer one. Hold on, let me pull this one up. This is reverse Kramer. Do you know who Kramer is? Nah. How would you describe him, Michael? A terrible trader. He's not a terrible trader. He gets super animated and gives financial advice.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they have one that does the opposite of what he suggests. Click on it Michael. See if you can click on it. This is his, I take it, inverse Kramer. It's up 252%.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So by taking. And I'm not giving anybody any financial advice. If you're taking financial advice from me, you are.

[A]

Yeah, but he's lying. He's got all the, all the insider information. He knows aliens exist. He's autopilot, like a legitimate trade in platform. It does just like a fancy one.

[B]

So autopilot, essentially it is you put, from my understanding, you put your money into the fund and it has a manager that will do the trades for you. So you're clicking permissions to be able to do that stuff. Inverse Kramer. 252.

[A]

It's funny, isn't it? It's funny. I've made quite a bit of cash actually. I've done all right. All my stocks are down at the

[B]

minute but yeah, that's how I know

[A]

I bought this one. A mate of mine was like, oh, you got to buy this ufo. UFO Mining company. So it wasn't a big bet but it's big enough for me.

[B]

What do you think?

[A]

I'm down like, like you can't be down 600. What am I down? I've basically got. I'll tell you what I put in. I think I put seven grand in. 7,000 US, 7,000 UK and it's down to like 400. Just sits there in the red every time, every time I open my.

[B]

Just mocking you.

[A]

Yeah, just going the what?

[B]

Have you heard of the Green Beret currently in trouble for poly market betting on the Maduro raid?

[A]

No.

[B]

Yes. How much did he make, Michael?

[A]

Did he know it was going to go ahead, I take it, and then back.

[B]

He was involved in the intelligence planning of the operation and put in, I think it was 30 small poly market bets on. Yeah, here he is.

[A]

The thing is though, how do you get found out? Because he must have been because he

[B]

used his fucking real name.

[A]

I mean, do you know what I mean?

[B]

A man made $400,000 off the results of the Maduro raid.

[A]

But I'd imagine he probably told someone that he made 400,000.

[B]

If he could make $400,000, I would tell everybody.

[A]

Yeah. Especially off the Maduro raid. I'd be like, guys, look at me, I'm. But like as in, he must have put. As in no one's looking at Polymarket to see If.

[B]

Well, they noticed an interesting. I mean, there's some things that stand out a little bit.

[A]

Go on.

[B]

So right before. Michael, please look this up too. I don't want to get out in front of my skis. I believe right before the Iran war, even though technically we're not in a war because it hasn't been declared by Congress, but the US hasn't done that since World War II. Anyway, so it's completely. There was a massive bet made on oil futures.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like pretty goddamn close to when things kicked off. When something like that happens, it gets a little bit more scrutiny and I think that's what happened here. Yeah, it was kind of, you know, the normal maybe ups and downs and then. So that's going to get some more scrutiny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

7 billion worth of suspiciously well timed place bets.

[A]

Amazing. I mean, I just call that like ingenious. I call it clever, like.

[B]

So you're pro poly market betting for US military or any military.

[A]

I mean, like, if he's had the. The genius to. Albeit he's involved in the intelligence pitch, I'd be saying to all my mates, I mean, that's what I do. So I'd use a proxy. He's obviously not used the proxy. Polymarket's weird, right? You can just bet on anything.

[B]

It. I've never actually bid on it because things like that absolutely terrify me. Say, because I would be laying there at 2 in the morning, like, is the sun going to come up at 7:05 tomorrow? Should I bet everything I have on it?

[A]

What was that? Some. Someone bet on that, didn't they? Or something? What was that stupid?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Was it someone was betting on something to do with the sun coming up in the moon?

[B]

No, you can bet on anything.

[A]

I know, but really, like what? And it just. The AI generates odds on.

[B]

I don't know, I think the more people. There has to be a certain amount of involvement. I don't think you could just go and create your own market. Having said that, again, I've never accessed a single one of these platforms.

[A]

Same.

[B]

You'd have to have. There'd have to be a minimum number of people involved. I don't think they're going to create a market for one thing because, I

[A]

mean, I mean they say that you can just bet on anything, right? So you could go on there and bet that. I'd lose an ear tomorrow.

[B]

I'll help you with that.

[A]

You got plenty of knives.

[B]

Let's go big.

[A]

That'd be the weirdest thing. Go. Go viral.

[B]

Here's the problem though. There can be a spike.

[A]

What would you choose?

[B]

Oh, you could choose probably the hatchet.

[A]

Yeah. Probably just one. Just hold it out like that.

[B]

Yeah. Why?

[A]

Saw.

[B]

Just. Let's just clean.

[A]

What if you missed and hit me in the head though?

[B]

You can sign away.

[A]

You never miss.

[B]

Oh, I definitely, I do it left handed. We'd have Michael film but he would pass out because he's a.

[A]

He's gone to the toilet. Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I don't know, it's, it'll be interesting to see what's happening. He's in the Green Beret guys under investigation right now. I'm pretty sure the military brought charges against him. Their, their issue is you use classified information to enrich your.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I get. Yeah, I mean I, I get it. Yeah. We can't have anyone outside of the main powerhouse making money from stuff like that. Stupid.

[B]

You can't have the peasants raising their status.

[A]

You can't have those people that are actually making the intelligence decisions that lead to someone like Maduro getting captured.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Betting on it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean that's, that's, that's crazy. 400 grand's a lot of money to make. It is, yeah. No one else is doing that kind of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Backhand trading deals. I mean, Trump's just declared that the war's over, Right?

[B]

I don't, I don't know.

[A]

I saw it on, I saw it

[B]

on Tick tock for at least eight days in a row. I saw that the deal was an hour away. So I don't know. My, my worry is. Oh yeah, dude, Michael's on a tape. United States and Iran have rich an initial framework agreement to end the war with an official memorandum of understanding scheduled for formal signing in Switzerland.

[A]

Okay, why are they doing it in Switzerland? I guess because it's a independent country, isn't it? Yeah.

[B]

The tenant impact aims to halt military operation, lift naval blockades and reopen the Straits of Vermouth While opening a 60 day window for further nuclear negotiations. Well, before we got into this, the Straits of Hormuz was open. There were no military operations and there wasn't a naval blockade. My worry is that this was all been theater and then nothing is actually going to be accomplished.

[A]

And that's what, yeah, that's what I, that's the, the word on the street, isn't it, that it was almost, almost pre meditated before.

[B]

I mean, what did we, what. I would love to see the measurable difference in the before and after and first off, we'll see if this gets signed also, does anybody have any realistic expectation, regardless of what is signed, if Iran, if Iran signs a piece of paper that says is we're not going to enrich uranium.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're going to take them at their word on that. I know, I know because they've said that before too. We won't both enrich to a certain capacity. And that's another thing that frustrates me is last year we did this strike with Israel where our self bombers used the bunker busters because I think they were the only aircraft capable of carrying it. We obliterated the Iranian nuclear program. Well, one of the justifications for what kicked off two, three months ago was they're just getting ready to have a nuclear weapon. Which one is it, guys?

[A]

I think equally right, it could just be a stalling tactic. And then as soon as Trump's out of office, providing that happens, then, you know, they just start doing whatever they

[B]

want to do or they'll just sign whatever they want to get whatever they want and just crack on, do whatever they want.

[A]

And isn't part of the deal that the US give them a load of cash anyway?

[B]

I don't know like 300 billion or something I saw. I don't know if they've actually declared.

[A]

I'm sure there's like $300 billion that was getting floated around the headlines, but I'm not sure what it was for. I'm sure it was that they would receive that much in a rebuilding the country from being.

[B]

Yeah. It does not directly give American taxpayer money or direct cash payments to it. And it'll, it'll have to be reconstruction funds from allies. Hold on. The peace deal outlines a proposed 300 billion private invest. What do you mean? A private investment in development fund to help rebuild Iran's economy. But this designed to fund. Designed to be funded by Gulf nations rather than the US Government. Yeah, but we also give a tremendous amount of money to the Gulf nation. That's where starts getting really gray. Man.

[A]

It's such a bizarre world, isn't it? I think that I sometimes I do believe it's like the more, the less of this that you absorb day to day, like the happier and clearer and

[B]

I can tell you 100 that's the case in my own life. I don't want to be disinformed. I don't want to be misinformed though either. I don't want to be oblivious to the world around me. But I also don't want to live in a constant state of anxiety where you Think that the. Gee, you know, the nuclear. What's that clock? Michael? We were looking at that one time doomsday clock. The doomsday clock is a second away from midnight and we're all just going to be turned into vapor trails anyway.

[A]

I mean, what's the doomsday clock?

[B]

It is a fake clock that world experts, usually in association with the environment, tell you how close they are to midnight, which midnight being essentially the irreversible destruction of the world. And it's, it's like two seconds away right now or something.

[A]

Seriously?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is that from our own internal doings or is that like a meteor or like the sun exploding or something?

[B]

I have absolutely no idea.

[A]

Or dinosaurs. It's supposed to be from humans.

[B]

For me, we're 85 seconds to midnight right now.

[A]

Didn't everyone think on the millennium that the world was going to end? Yeah.

[B]

Look at this. In 1991, we were 17 minutes from midnight. We are now 85 seconds to midnight.

[A]

But as in what? Like, how does the world end? Does it just blow up or something? They have no idea.

[B]

I know.

[A]

They just say this. Is this on porn.com again?

[B]

It's on the Internet. It has to be true.

[A]

I remember years ago, BBC News and they have the app on the phone. I remember downloading it because obviously I was in the army, in the special forces, so I've got to keep up with current affairs and like it's like the fashion that everyone's like looking at it going, oh, what's happening in Iran? What's happening in Africa? And I'm just reading in, you know like that moment where you have a realization that all the news is just negative news. Yeah, I deleted it. And I was like, amazing.

[B]

I feel great almost instantly. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have about two days of panic where you think you're missing out on stuff and then you go.

[A]

And then someone goes, oh, did you see what happened? There was a typhoon in Tijuana and an old woman got killed. And you just like me, great. I mean, like unfortunate for the woman, but yeah. And the people that got. Not that happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I recently know or I noticed it recently on Instagram because the amount of that you served. And it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have to be news. Right. It doesn't have to be anything to do with the foreign politics or the US politics, whatever it is. It could be like, I don't know, like, I don't even need to say it because everyone probably experiences on a day to day thing, it's like, we're now getting fed what? You know, the panic that you would have seen on BBC News app. We're now getting fed this on. On Instagram, but not even like at a level that the BBC News app would. Would have it on. So it's like an astronomical level at which we're being just fed crap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Half the stuff I'm just like, like, is this. Is this happening in the world?

[B]

Michael, see if you can find a graph that shows the advent of social media and mental health issues. Because I believe I've seen a chart similar to this and it's very interesting. I'm not claiming causality, but it seems like there's a deep correlation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, they both start growing at a rapid rate around the same time. And again, I'm not saying one is exact cause of the other, but maybe we should take a look at that.

[A]

You don't have to be a detective to figure out that.

[B]

Which I'm not.

[A]

No, you could be there. I mean, I don't know what the Doomsday Clock is. I mean, do you think dinosaurs were real autistic ones or.

[B]

I don't have any evidence to show that they weren't. I can see bones and stuff from. How about you? Where do you land on dinosaurs?

[A]

So I live on the Jurassic coast coast in the UK and there's a dinosaur print in the ground. I've never been to it, but yeah, apparently it's still there.

[B]

Pyramids, Real or alien technology?

[A]

It's one of those. Who gives a. Do you know what I mean? It's like, do you know what if they were made by aliens? Amazing. Do you know what I mean? How amazing is that? That we've got aliens that build pyramid structures?

[B]

And why did they build them if they did?

[A]

Is that you over the alien structure there?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, on the bottom.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I say, that was the coolest jump I've ever done.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I thought it was going to be Antarctica and Antarctica was in fact cool, but it just looked like jumping over snowy terrain.

[A]

Did you think, as in, like, when you arrived in Egypt, you thought that was Antarctica or you thought you were going to Antarctica to jump?

[B]

No, we jumped in Antarctica first. We started in Antarctica. We were there for a full solid week.

[A]

Was that the seven? Yeah, no, it was.

[B]

I mean, we started there because that had the most variables and we knew when our flight was going to be leaving there, there, supposedly, which it ended up coming on schedule. So we had to plan everything else around that. So we started there. But, yeah, I mean, Looking down and seeing the pyramids. What's hilarious. So I get under canopy. I 100 considered top landing. The Great Pyramid of these are cool.

[A]

Would that be man.

[B]

First off, how would you do it though?

[A]

Because it's like, I don't know, you. You think that it'd be this point, right?

[B]

I know it's very flat.

[A]

That points to the. What's it supposed to. To. They're supposed to line up as like the circumference of the heaven's anus or whatever it is. Yeah, the circumference of God's penis or something.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty flat. Not huge.

[A]

I imagine it's quite big, right. Probably the size of this room.

[B]

Twice the size of this table, I would say, which is doable. I can do that. Plus also if you miss, you're like we. I'm still under canopy. Right. And just kind of surf it down in my head. I was trying to run the risk versus reward international incident. Will it bring positive or negative press to the triple seven. Will we raise more or less money?

[A]

Probably now positive.

[B]

So we landed the guy. So I'm wearing the brown pants. The guy to the left, his left foot is right by an old golf course.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which is not shown any of the pictures. Neither is the Marriott, by the way. That's right across the street from the pyramids. They're selective in the angles that they show the pyramids to make them look as if they're in the middle of nowhere. As you can see, there's Cairo right there. So we landed in that. I opened up pretty much right over the top of the pyramid and flew across. There was a corporate event taking place with I am not you just like be. So I'm flying right over the top of this.

[A]

That's why you flew into, isn't it?

[B]

To land at the golf course. But it was pretty cool to fly around under canopy near those pyramids. It's pretty awesome.

[A]

You can jump it now, can't you?

[B]

I think there's companies that you can not often. And yeah, many, many people have jumped out over the pyramids. That's not something that we were the first to do. I don't think they do it incredibly often, but it's also not that unique.

[A]

Yeah, it's like quite. It's like experiential, isn't it? Like a few companies that do it.

[B]

Yeah. Oftentimes they'll put you in the back of Mi7s. They'll get the Egyptian military helicopters. Yeah, we were. I think it said skydive the pyramids on the side of the plane. It was a Twin Otter or a caravan.

[A]

You jump. You still jump.

[B]

I haven't jumped in a while. Only because there's no DZs up here.

[A]

No way. I thought there'd be below to pair.

[B]

I mean if you think about it, about six months to eight months out of the year. Not great for jumping weather. So it would be tough to have an operation and make everything you need to in a year to sustain yourself. In about four months. I have enough jumps now. As long as it's not something complicated. I can just jump into it. Yeah, just go send it. As long as it's a slick jump.

[A]

So I, I didn't do much whilst I was serving.

[B]

You got exposed to it though, I'm assuming.

[A]

Yeah. So you all do. When I first joined, you'd all do static line. So hey ho. And then because I was mountain troop,

[B]

obviously static line and square like steerable.

[A]

Steerables. Yeah. BTA to canopy.

[B]

So static line in the US means something different.

[A]

Right?

[B]

That means jumping into Normandy in a round.

[A]

Oh, the big circle.

[B]

Yeah. With no control whatsoever. And it is just jump off a 10 foot roof onto the ground and that's what landing feels like.

[A]

Yeah, we do that. We do that as well.

[B]

Good. Yeah, you need to have that.

[A]

That's horrible.

[B]

It's essential. No, it's essential to have. It's really.

[A]

Why does it hurt so much?

[B]

Because you are slow at like a slow car wreck speed colliding with the ground. That's why it hurts.

[A]

Yeah. Because the wind's blowing you that way and it's just douche.

[B]

They just. The velocity coming down is unacceptable.

[A]

Yeah. So we, we train. So you do that in the, in the paras anyway. And then when you join SF you go and do steerables. It's the same canopy that we freefall. BT80. And then I was mountain troop, but we were the first guys. So now everyone gets free fall trained. Hey, Halo. We were the first guys that went through it and I can't remember where the story was going. Oh, so I'm not jumping. Yeah, yeah. So I've done quite a lot. But obviously, you know, in that I don't know what it was five years from being trained up to leaving and then didn't jump when I, when I got out and then probably didn't jump for four years and I got a job with Sega, the game company I had to free fall in.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. Dressed as a World War II paratrooper.

[B]

A free fall jump as a World War II paratrooper. Yeah, we're really combining some genres here.

[A]

Out of a heli.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

I had to hold the game in my hand, which I taped to my hand.

[B]

How did you get this job?

[A]

I don't know. They just approached and just went, we're looking for someone to jump in, but I don't. I jumped for four years, so I had to get. I went out to Seville to jump and I think I went out for five days. We had bad weather for four. Final day, we managed to jump

[B]

as it goes.

[A]

So first jump out, I jumped with two instructors. Yeah, Me, I'd like lost all air skill humanly possible. It was all over the place. Could get stable, Came back, probably did like two or three jumps, got comfortable, started doing some turns and did like a link up where four of us jumped out and all that kind of stuff.

[B]

Yeah. Taped a video game to your hand.

[A]

Yeah. And then someone died on the dz. Damn Irish guy, he jumped out static line last minute.

[B]

He was on a steerable.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, but he was. Apparently he was an instructor, super experienced. Oh, no, he'd been jumping all day. We were chatting to him in the hangar when we're sorting the rigs out. Last minute he'd gone up in a. On a static line jump and jumped. And Yeah, I don't know what happened to him, but he landed off the DZ when we drove. So they shut the DZ at this point and then as we were driving out, the police had cordoned this little section off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, I think I managed to get four jumps. Obviously got the, the signature that I was in date because I knew the instructor. And then, yeah, next minute I jumped out of a helicopter in the UK with a game strapped to my arm.

[B]

As you do when you need to.

[A]

I know, dresses in World War II. And then the funny thing is, the funny thing, it paid well, right? Yeah. But I turned up to the DZ in the uk. Bear in mind, I've been out the army at this stage, or SF for four years. There was a, like one of the squadrons air troop had turned up to this DZ on the same day. So I was dressed as a World War II paratrooper and literally all the lads were stood there, listen, we don't

[B]

have to be proud of everything we've done.

[A]

I walked out, I just heard Jay. I was like, all right, mate. It was one of my mates, Steve, what the fuck are you doing here, mate? Am I stressed like that?

[B]

Stop asking questions. Bills have to be paid.

[A]

Hey, you Gotta do what you gotta do.

[B]

Yeah. What would you describe that you do now? What do you consider yourself? Are you an entrepreneur?

[A]

I've got a company that does outdoor expeditions, so.

[B]

Because I know you've done a bunch of stuff up towards Everest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you know that that's what you wanted to do when you got out of. You just kind of navigated through and figured it out along the way?

[A]

Bit of both, probably. I. Yeah, when I left, I, I ran an expedition to Everest and Manusley whilst I was still serving in the military. And then when I got out, a friend had set up a company in Nepal. He's Nepalese. So I ran a couple of his expeditions out there and then ended up doing a TV show in the uk, which is. Is pretty popular, called sas who Dares Wins? It's a reality TV show. We get a load of civilians and minor celebrities and we, we stick them through like a two week Special Forces

[B]

training camp and then they tell everybody that they're war heroes for the rest of their life.

[A]

Literally. They're like, mate, can I get in the Special Forces? And you're like, yes.

[B]

If by special you mean short bus and you eat crayons, then yes.

[A]

And yeah. So I probably had a period of time post the TV show. I did a. Another TV show in, in Australia which was the same one.

[B]

Do you like that type of stuff?

[A]

I don't not like it. It's hilarious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's four instructors or five, so we're all like Special Forces lads, we all know each other. So considering I'd not really done much Special Forces work, I'd done a bit of bodyguard work, close protection, that kind of stuff. Stuff. It was like my first, it was the first time back in with the lads and obviously like the humor, the banter, all that kind of stuff's hilarious. Some of it doesn't wash on tv,

[B]

but yeah, you know, context matters.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, the scary thing is that you, you mic'd up 24 7, so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But it's one of those things, Andy, probably similar to stuff that you've experienced where you do it. I'd never, I'd never pursue a career in, in tv. I think it's like a very toxic world. I think to be successful in tv, you've got to be a certain personality that, you know, likes the sound of his own voice, likes to be on camera, likes to be the center of attention.

[B]

You got to be in it for yourself, I think, to climb that ladder.

[A]

Yeah, it takes a lot of luck. It Takes a lot of persistence in doing something that ultimately you're filming yourself doing something all the time. It's almost like, I don't know, the biggest character kind of gets the. Yeah.

[B]

The airtime.

[A]

I don't. I think, you know, my first experience of being on camera, like I'm not a natural person. Like we spend the majority of our. Our time in the shadows, you know, not taking pictures of ourselves, all that kind of stuff. To be thrust into the TV world and have a camera pointing in your face. You're just like, Jesus. Like, I don't naturally find that easy. But for. For a profile razor to. To get me into conversations or to get me work that I wouldn't have got if I hadn't done that tv. I think it's amazing.

[B]

That's real.

[A]

I'd do it again in a heartbeat. For those reasons. I'd never chase it as a career. It's got me experiences that I'd never have done. Right. And for that I'm super grateful for it.

[B]

I did a reality TV show.

[A]

Did you.

[B]

Did you know that? Michael?

[A]

Can we. I don't think so. We can't pull it up.

[B]

Pull up Hunted. Cbs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It was actually based off your instructor or. Yeah, because we've got a Hunted.

[B]

I think I was sitting behind a computer because that's what I'm really good at, you know, is you're the analyst. Yeah. Because I. That's my deep history computers. Let's just say. Let's just say it was light on reality, heavy on tv.

[A]

It's crazy in it.

[B]

Like I wouldn't do it again. It was interesting to do.

[A]

Let me pull up a YouTube video real quick.

[B]

No, no, no. Just pull up. Up. You don't need to Pull up a YouTube video. Pull up. Go to Images.

[A]

This is good. Have you watched the Agency?

[B]

I haven't yet.

[A]

It's a good show. Is it Michael Fassbender or. No, it's not Michael Fassbender. I can't remember what he's called.

[B]

Second image.

[A]

This one. You're welcome.

[B]

Michael, where are you? Second. Oh, yeah, second row. Right there with the.

[A]

The hat and the boat. Oh, wow, mate. How.

[B]

Hold on.

[A]

You look younger there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who's the guy with the dicky bone in the background?

[B]

First off, the fact that you just confused me.

[A]

Look at those eyes. Who is that guy?

[B]

That man wears other human beings skin.

[A]

Yeah. Like a leotard. What's that film?

[B]

He was. He was a. An electronics expert.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I looked younger because age is real. And I was way younger in that picture.

[A]

How old are you?

[B]

That, that was at least 12 years ago, I think 10 years ago. I don't know. So, yeah, never search for that again. Michael Hunted.

[A]

You're welcome. Now I know what was your experience with TV like?

[B]

I don't think they would invite me back.

[A]

No, no. Be quite honest about.

[B]

They would ask me to say things like, andy, what you said was interesting, but can you start your sentence with as a former Navy seal? And I would look at them and I would say, no. And they say, why not? Like, because that's not an important part of the sentence that I just said. And it. Great. It was just I didn't care if I got a second airtime. They pitched it as this was going to be as close to reality as possible. And I don't want to, you know, people who like these type of shows. That's great. I don't care how real it looks. There's an artificial nature to it. We were tracking people down that were supposedly on the run as long as we were inside of the union hours of the cameramen. And so there was a lot of start and stop. And I had to wear that same outfit for, I think, 40 days straight.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so for continuity and all sorts of stuff, it just, it was an interesting experience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wouldn't go back. I don't think they would invite me back. So it's mutually beneficial.

[A]

It's so funny, isn't it? I, I. Doing the TV show, there's a part where you've got to do these interviews and before you actually do the TV show, you'll sit down in a studio in London and probably do two of these sessions that last about three hours long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where they've got that camera with a 45 degree angled mirror and the, the interviewer sits there. Yep. And you literally just see their eyes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they'll ask you a series of questions, ask you to talk about your career, all that kind of stuff.

[B]

Those are weird ones. When they, when they'll do that, it's intense.

[A]

But yeah, you'll, you'll do that for three hours and you go out to location. We filmed in Jordan, in, in Scotland. And then at the end of that, they'll bring you into the same setup, but where you filmed, so in Jordan or Scotland. And they'll have scripts for you to read. So that three hours or six hours that you spent staring at that, that woman in the camera gets scrapped. And they just go, jay, can you say that when you served in the Special Forces that, you know, you were required to run through tunnels that were, that were wet. And to do that, you, you know, the resilience needed to do that was formed through years of military service.

[B]

Can you just speak in a way that you would never naturally speak? So we can get what we need to sell detergent on ad breaks. It was literally that again though, interesting experience introduced me. Some people I would have never met stay in contact with some of them. Yeah, wouldn't do it again. I'm glad that I did it so I can check that box and say I had that experience. But yeah, yeah, no, thanks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what else have you done? What else have you gotten yourself into?

[A]

Yeah, so I got a company now, Concept Expeditions. Brought you a T shirt.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

So, yeah, I run one on one guiding for clients around the world.

[B]

Onesies. You?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I, I, I did some. So I worked for a friend of mine who's got a guiding company. I don't know if you've heard of him. Nims. Nims Purger. The dude who did the 147 film on Netflix.

[B]

I like the guy who did the 15 is, I think more impressive.

[A]

Yeah, they say that now there's like 7, 8, 8,000 meter peaks. Why does everybody have to be an asshole?

[B]

Somebody climbs the 14 peaks and they're like, yeah, but what about the 15?

[A]

That it's never enough that that whole 8,000 meter mountain world is like gone super weird Since Nims brought out the film.

[B]

Yeah, I am familiar with who he is.

[A]

Yeah, I, I did. So me and Nims are on selection years ago. Like I've known him for years. But when I, when I first climbed it in 2017, the only people that climbed it were generally male mountaineers.

[B]

I'm talking Everest at this point.

[A]

Everest, yeah.

[B]

Michael, just Google this now, not to interrupt you, but just Google, 2025 or 2026 Summit Day line because I have questions for you about. Yeah, Hillary Step, if you will.

[A]

And this year, this year was worse.

[B]

What are your thoughts on that? Because what you're talking about, the people who were out there, they were grinding it. They were. And I'm sure there's always been a niche market for somebody who has access to anything and everybody via money, status, power, whatever it is, all those things that, yeah, they can buy their way up there for sure. They're heavily relying upon the Sherpas. What you're talking about though, are the people grinding it the fuck out, which I love. And also though, if you have enough money and you want to go to Everest. And you want to spend your money on that as long as you don't kill somebody else or put other people at risk. I'm not going to tell you how to live your life, but this is. I mean, as somebody who's been up there twice, who has a guiding. I mean, what are your thoughts on this?

[A]

I don't think we can get away from it. I think what I don't like is a lot of people go. A lot of people. This gets so Everest, the name. Everest, the mountain. This. This is what people think of. Yeah, but actually it's not, you know, Everest is still the highest mountain in the world. It's still this iconic, beautiful, like, amazing experience. All my experiences on Everest have been nothing like this. So it's like. It's the people. Do you know what I mean? It's the people that are there. I think we can't get away from this. I think we now live in a world where we. We've gone away from. We basically have access to anything and people want to do things because it's either hard or they can get a picture doing it and show all the mates that they've done it on social media or whatever. And you kind of see in this now on. On Everest, where what used to be quite an underground mountain, you know, I first client in 2017, like I said, it was full of like, older. Older guys that had saved up. You know, they've been into mountaineering their whole life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They'd saved up a ton of cash, you know, or they'd got a payout in. In their pension.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they paid to come out and climb Everest. It was. It was dead. There was like, no one on it. Everyone was like, miserable and old and like, you know, that kind of old perfect, you know, the old school mountaineer that was just like. It was like that.

[B]

Wearing war jeans.

[A]

Yeah. 2017. Yeah. Literally like 2017. I stood on the summit on my own, like, no one else, no Sherpas, nothing. There was like. Really? Yeah. There was no one on it.

[B]

That's got to be unbelievable.

[A]

Yeah, we had. So it was myself and a guy called John Wood. And John had been injured in Tora Bora in the early afghan days in 2001. Had a helicopter line on a vehicle, smashed him right up, like. End up getting medically discharged. Was really successful in business, Made a load of cash, wanted to climb Everest.

[B]

Oh, Michael, scroll down on the right hand side. Yeah, there we go. Perfect. Just leave it there because it's.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah, this is going through the Kumbu.

[B]

So I mean that, that's got to be an unbelievable experience. See if you can find the Michael Google Hillary Step line or Hillary Step traffic jam.

[A]

Yeah, that's. So where you scroll down before that's. That was the Hillary Step, the previous picture

[B]

right there.

[A]

Yeah, that's the Hillary on the right. The small one. Yep. I mean all of that is the Hillary Step.

[B]

How does the climb.

[A]

I mean that's coming up from Camp 3 there you see Alban Glow Expeditions.

[B]

How do you, how, who's managing that? How is that. Oh my God, look at that line on the one on the left. So what does the climbing community think about this? I mean, I don't want you to speak for them, but I'm just curious what you have heard.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you know, everyone thinks of what most people think. They look at that and just go, a load of rich people pay a load of cash, have a Nepalese Sherpa drag them up to the summit. Most of it's true. The cost of Everest this year, the base cost of Everest this year was US$45,000. Most companies charge anything from 55 to 60 for a base rate standard expedition. Most charge above that. For example, I'd imagine Alpenglow, which is a credible company, that they probably charge anything from around 70,000 plus. I know Nims's top tier VIP clients were paying 200,000 per.

[B]

Does that do they get. They just get put in a backpack.

[A]

And Nims personally, literally he shouts at them the whole time because for that

[B]

much money I would want him to carry me in a baby Bajorn and I'd be facing him.

[A]

Yeah. Licking his face. Yeah.

[B]

Through the O2 mask.

[A]

He take that off. Just breathe his oxygen. It works. I mean like, you know, 200 grand. You get better facilities at base camp, you get first dibs on the mountain, Nims guides you, all that kind of stuff.

[B]

So who controls who gets first dibs? How do they manage that stuff?

[A]

So you, you, you. So you've got to fix the, the ropes at the summit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So most of the biggest expedition companies will put together a rope fixing team. So they'll give like one or two Sherpas to the rope fixing team.

[B]

How far in advance do they do that? A couple days, weeks.

[A]

It's conditions based.

[B]

Does it last for the season once they set those.

[A]

That's the ropes for the season variable? Generally, yes, but I mean with weather changing, big storms coming through, they'll, they'll bury the rope. So you'd have to Send them up again. It's a lot of. It's weather. Yeah. A lot of it is.

[B]

Good job. Just so you know, they'll go ahead and.

[A]

Yeah. But you know, those Sherpas are fucking seriously strong beasts. Absolute strong. Like, like, you know the Sherpa that we used in, in some of our early expeditions. Pingma David, he's Nims's right hand man, director of the company. I've seen him do some stuff and I'm just like, you know, the, the guy's like 5 foot 2, weighs nothing. Like his arms are, his legs are, you know, as wide as my forearm. And you know, after we'd summit it, I saw him come down from Everest and he's, you know, they, they do this thing with their oxygen because they've only got one bottle. Like a normal climber would take five bottles for a summit push. Some people pay for more, but they'll have one bottle for the summit push. And their oxygen mask just dangles in front of their face. They don't even wear it.

[B]

No proper seal, if you will.

[A]

And like he was coming down to, I think it was Camp 3 to Camp 2 and he's probably got about six oxygen bottles and they weigh roughly around 7 kgs, I think 5 to 7 kgs each.

[B]

About 15 pounds for the U.S. yeah, sorry, that's right.

[A]

Yeah. Fahrenheit, Celsius.

[B]

We will do anything possible not to use the metrics.

[A]

So weird because the metric system's like the easiest system ever.

[B]

Yeah. But right now we're seven hot dogs apart. We will never use. We are 1 100th of a football field apart right now. We will never use the metric system.

[A]

What yards? What the is a yard?

[B]

Nobody knows. It's like a meter. But not stones.

[A]

Do you do stones in the horse?

[B]

No. Yeah. In the horse world they do stones and hands.

[A]

Seriously?

[B]

Yeah, hands, for sure.

[A]

Hands. Yeah, yeah, I think they do that.

[B]

I feel like.

[A]

Whose hand though?

[B]

I know.

[A]

Male or female? Has it got nails on?

[B]

Hard rings? Hard to say.

[A]

What if they're missing a finger?

[B]

I think it's pinky. I think it's this way. So as long as it's not one of the. Yeah, it's the Shaka,

[A]

but yeah, I mean, bottles.

[B]

He was coming down with that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he's, he's a strong beast. But I, I don't think this is an issue, right. Because I think kind of post Nims's film, I, I do kind of blame Nims for this because he brought so much attention to 8,00.0 meter peaks and climbing in the Himalayas.

[B]

I think it was trending in that direction before but I agree certainly did if there was a fire going.

[A]

Yeah, well I, I think you, you can't get away from this. This is inevitable. I think what having seen both having been on the mountain when it's like this and been on it when it, it definitely wasn't as busy. I mean I don't like this, it's more dangerous. Like I'd like to see a, a stronger vetting process but I also know that that's impossible because you know for every strict western company like Alpenglow that vets there clients responsibly, you have you know, five or six Nepalese company that would take anyone and not all of the Nepalese companies like that, but the

[B]

majority are Michael Google Mount Everest garbage piles. Because with the size a group this size, these are pictures that are not often seen as many as the summit but it is directly correlated to the number of people that are there.

[A]

Yeah. Agreement. I mean yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like the third one.

[A]

I mean the answer to this is bins right.

[B]

Or hike your down, you need bins

[A]

on, you need bins 8,000 meter and

[B]

but yeah people may not realize, I mean this is, this is actually the reality though of that many. There's oxygen bottles, there's dead bodies that are on the mountain which I totally understand because it's, you will lose lives in the attempt to save life. People go missing. They, I mean who was the guy they found? I mean I know some of the opened.

[A]

Hillary.

[B]

Yeah. I mean 50 or 60 years later, something like that.

[A]

I think that was a fix.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

Well, I don't know. Like how many times have people been up Everest and all of a sudden Jimmy Chin puts a crew together and they go up and find a shoe with his name tag in it.

[B]

It could have been variable conditions, you

[A]

know, I mean I'm, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. It's just a random thing to find a shoe with a name tag again on the whole Mount Everest range. Sometimes you get lucky they spelled his name wrong or it was the wrong size shoe.

[B]

It's like a women's six.

[A]

Yeah, I mean but this is real. I, I, I, I, I, I don't disagree. I think it's disgusting. I don't know what the answer is because the thing is with this and this is up at probably Camp 4 because it's the dirtiest place. You're 8,000 meters the south coal to try and manage litter is, is Difficult because you're also dealing with, not laziness, but you're dealing with people that are severely fatigued. Yeah, they're exhausted, that don't get paid any extra for bringing the litter down. So every, every expedition company is responsible for their litter and shit. They get fined if they don't bring it down. And it's pretty strict, as in if, if the expedition company that I'm climbing with spot another expedition company that collapses and goes and they leave litter, they can be, they can be fined by the government. But it's the human factor, right? You're 8, 000 meters, you're finishing your expedition, everyone's happy, you're the, the new bloke, the new Sherpa or whatever with your mucker. And you've got to carry £70 worth of, of kit down the mountain. You have no oxygen, you're at Camp 4. Oh, and now you've got to carry an extra 15 pounds of litter when, you know, we all know like Nepal's a poor country, they don't see the value of taking litter off that we do. They don't understand that how much litter

[B]

is on the actual summit path trail, if you will. Are there bottles that are discarded? Okay. It's pretty, a little bit more pristine. Is it the camps?

[A]

It's at the camp. It's Camp Fours that. So if you google Everest litter, you'll just see Pictures of Camp 4. Okay. Like base camp, it all gets cleared up. Okay. Yeah, Camp 3, it gets cleared. I mean there's, there's mineral at Camp 3, it's generally tents. But if you were to go to Camp 3 now you, if anything like you see feces on the, the trail, cuz people need to. So they'll pull over to the side, drop one and then crack on. But litter you don't see. And then the same Camp 2, there's a little bit around Camp 2 because Camp 2 is a little bit more of a structured camp. You generally have like a kitchen tent. You take better facilities for toilets up there. The rest of the camps are kind of transit camps. So like you'll see in the glasses there'll be like tent poles and crap inside the, the crevasses.

[B]

But does Nepal who. So part of the mountain is what on the China side? Part of the mountain? Nepalese.

[A]

Tibet or China or whatever you want to say.

[B]

How much control do they actually have? I mean, can they control the number of people that make the attempt? I mean, there's no Nepalese ticket counter at the top. Say it's your turn through the turnstile.

[A]

So you need to get a permit which the government grant. But I mean they make money from the permits. Yeah, the permit historically was I think 8 or 10,000. It's now 15,000. So albeit they've put the price of the permit up, doesn't necessarily mean that you get less people through the door, means you get richer people through the door. Like if, if you're, if you can afford an expedition for 60, if you can afford a 200 grand expedition or a 60 grand expedition, you don't care if the, if the, the permits 8 grand or 15 grand. No, but the, the government get more money. So I think it's great because the government should get more money from everest or climbing 8,000 meter peaks. But again the Nepalese government isn't. Well, most governments are pretty corrupt, Right.

[B]

If you dig far enough into it. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Nepal's, you know the, that similar. I'd imagine a big portion of that money just ends up in certain politicians pockets. And, and that's why Everest will never be, you know, as strict or restricted that we would like it to be. Yeah. Because people make money from it.

[B]

With the increase of people with that extravagant level of wealth which by the way fully supportive of people being as wealthy as they want to be. I hate people. I dislike people looking at others saying well he has so much. I don't like him because he has that. I disagree with that philosophy. I'm not saying everybody got their money or things in the most altruistic way, but also it's the world. It's the world. And spend more time focusing on yourself than what somebody else has and you'll be far better off just as a general principle with that level of wealth. I mean, I know it's a long walk in and a long walk out. Are you starting to see a little bit more helicopter departures earlier on than the long walk out?

[A]

I gotta be honest. No one walks out out. No one walks out, dude. Like I've never walked out good there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As in I'd rather pay a thousand dollars, share a helicopter and fly out.

[B]

Oh, they'll come zip you. Right. Where do they pull you from?

[A]

Base camp.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean it's not the safest of helicopter journeys, but yeah, I mean you're a little high altitude for sure. You're doing like it's like another five days on the hoof trying to get out and then you get to Lookler and you might be grounded there because there's a huge queue of people from, from from trekking the actual base camp route that are trying to get out. But yeah, helicopters all the way. In fact, the two. The. Or I've flown out three times from Everest. The. The two times that I flew out post summit. Sketchiest flights I've ever been on. Really. Yeah. Flew into cloud. So you've got this like, valley and basically the weather system, similar type.

[B]

Pilot just sent it right into the clouds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In. In a mountain range in a valley. Awesome.

[A]

So, like, you book onto a helicopter for seven in the morning, first light or whatever, you get on the helicopter at 5pm so the weather, the way the weather works in Nepal, you wake up in the morning, blue sky, no cloud, and obviously moisture builds up throughout the day and you get this big waft.

[B]

Temperature differences. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It comes up from the bottom, comes up with altitude, and you get this. You've got this huge valley and it goes down and it turns right and goes to this place called Ferro Shay, where there's a big helicopter kind of depot. They kind of come in and out from there. And yeah, the cloud system comes up and just sits like on top of the valley. So the first time I got out, I was the last person, like all my team had gone and I was waiting for this. Ellie. Ellie comes back. It's like the. You're like, how the. Can this pilot fly out? And literally the guy comes and picks you up. I'm sat on a load of duffels, duffel bags in the back. There's a Sherpa in the passenger seat. And then the pilot, he's a Nepalese pilot. That's a good thing. Sometimes there's some amazing Nepalese pilots, but you get a load of foreign pilots that go over there because it's a testing ground. And he flies out and he's flying like, literally, you know, 10 meters above the ground because of where the cloud is. Literally just pops straight into this cloud.

[B]

Just sends it straight in.

[A]

Yeah, I'm just like, when you know a bit about flying. Yeah. Floating a few helicopters. I'm just like.

[B]

Like, especially in constricted terrain like that.

[A]

Yeah. You just got mounted.

[B]

How long was he in the clouds for?

[A]

What felt like 50 minutes was probably more like 10 seconds. But he's flying down this valley and this shirt, you can see the panic. Do you know what I mean? And this sher just next minute he just goes. He's just pointing that way and just screaming at him. This heli. Like banks, right. Like flies down into the cloud and just pops out the cloud. And he's in the next valley.

[B]

There's a couple of other ways that could have ended too. Yeah, that's.

[A]

I mean there's, there's quite a lot of helicopter crashes over there. It happens quite a lot.

[B]

You're at a super high altitude, like you said. The very. The mountain flying is not a joke. You, not only do you need to be familiar with the terrain, the helicopter you're flying, the weather conditions, even all of those, it's still super dangerous. You're at the upper limits of what those things are able to do.

[A]

And, and you know, you're living in a country that, you know, if it's the U.S. switzerland or whatever, it's like there's checks and procedures crack maintenance team

[B]

making sure all the bolts are on there. I'm sure the maintenance windows, the 1500 hour checks are definitely getting done on time.

[A]

100%. My flight instructor was telling me it's the wild. Like flying out of there is the wildest thing ever.

[B]

Flying anywhere outside of the first world gets a little wild. So a lot of people learn how to fly in Robinson helicopters.

[A]

The little bubble ones, the single, the, a single blade thing. Yeah. Can you fly, Hel?

[B]

I can, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have my fixed wing and my helicopter license. And my instructor was talking to me. He had done a bunch of flying in jungles and third world places where like carrying batteries out of the jungle because he couldn't get the thing started. So he had to, you know, or had heard stories of people needing to walk for a few days. The blades, I'm going to say on the Robinson, I don't know for sure. Whatever it was, he encountered a guy who was flying a Robinson that had the factory blades that were and order orders of magnitude beyond what they were certified for. And he's just out there fully sending it. Bucket of fucks. Completely empty. Okay, dude.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

These things are rated for five. I got 20,000 hours on these things. We're good to go, boys.

[A]

Yeah. That thing looks scary. It's a Robinson. It looks like a tin box.

[B]

It's tiny and it is very, it's, it's. I would describe it as twitchy. I don't think that's a word found in the manual or how Robinson would necessarily describe it. It's very lightweight, responsive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's susceptible to a lot of the turbulence or buffeting left and right. As long as you. It's like any piece of equipment. If you keep it inside of the tolerances, you're going to be okay. The Robinsons are oftentimes Associated with what's called mast bump, which is where the main rotor blade cuts off the tail rotor boom.

[A]

Seriously?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Happens a lot.

[B]

It doesn't happen a lot, but that particular airframe, the type of rotor system that it has on top, if you do a negative G push forward the two. Yeah. And. But if you don't do that, that's not going to happen. Some people don't mean to. They'll get into turbulence and they'll dive it. You know what I mean? So keep your tools inside of the operating parameters and you're going to be okay.

[A]

Why did you, why did you learn to fly whilst you're in or when you got out?

[B]

I learned fixed wing while I was in. So after I had gotten hurt, they sent me to BUDS to be an instructor at the SEAL course. And they were looking at that time period to try to increase the number of people making its way through. There was a doctrinal push inside of all special operations in the US Military. We need more. And you know as well as I do that's, that's a great theory, but that's five years minimum to really get an in. You can't mass produce them. It's one of the core tenets of special operations. So in SEAL training, the winter hell weeks that week where they essentially keep you up, there's a vast amount of attrition. So they were playing around with for one class. Let's not have a winter hell week cycle to see if it makes an impact on attrition or numbers through at the end. I checked in right at that point where that class was starting the first phase, which was 10 weeks long. So I didn't have anything to do for a couple of months. Months. And I was driving home where I was living in eastern San Diego and this little Cessna looked like it was about to just completely auger in to the freeway that's right next to the airport. And I looked up and I said, well, that looks interesting. So I banged a left and went to the flight school. And then I got my private pilot's license and kind of put it to bed. Worked into, worked for a CrossFit, a strength and conditioning company afterwards. And the founder wanted to get an aircraft to travel back, back and forth between his houses. And he had remembered that I used to fly. So I started doing flying there, which led to some jet type ratings. Didn't fly for probably eight, maybe even nine years. Was at a friend's house and he had a, a star helicopter sitting in his patio for lack of a Better term, it's like, hey, you want to go up? I'm like, okay. And then the guy who took me up like, hey, do you want to fly? I was like, okay. Not the takeoff part or landing. That's probably not advisable for anybody near us or in this helicopter. Flew it around for a little bit and it just kind of reignited the passion for it. It was fun and it was something that I enjoyed before. I had never really thought of rotary wing stuff. I didn't know much about it and I talked an immense amount of about rotary wing flying knowing almost nothing about it, which is that.

[A]

Is there like a little bit of banter between fixed wing and rotary?

[B]

No, it's just, it's. I think it's just best when you don't know much about stuff just to really deeply discuss issues, you know, be the expert.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's, that's the way the world works, right.

[B]

And on the fixed wing side, you know, oh, if our engine goes out, we can glide for a bit. You guys are dead. If the engine goes out in the helicopter, which is not necessarily true, you have less time. But there's things that you can manage.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Just the auto rotation, you know, it

[A]

depends on if you start it up again.

[B]

No, depends. I mean in the Robinson, I don't think you can. In the helicopter I fly if an engine fails, you do not attempt to restart in flight. I fly multi engine helicopter though, so I'll just fly it back to the airport. But did that flight came home a couple days later. It's like, that was pretty cool. And then saw one of the Robinsons landing at the local airport and researched there was a flight school. Ended up getting my a rotary wing private pilot's license. And then worked my way into having a helicopter. And now I go fly whenever I want to.

[A]

You gotta be your own heli. Yep, that's wicked. Ever jump out of it whilst you'll

[B]

fly someone else flying or I could do it once. Yeah, Be expensive. Jump. Just ghost, right? Ghost ride it to the lake.

[A]

You remember that guy jumped out of his plane or something? Yeah, totally up.

[B]

He had an aircraft emergency and just happened to be flying his Cessna with his skydiving rig on and about nine GoPros.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he stuffed it.

[B]

It was like north of la. He stuffed it in. The FAA was not really pleased with his.

[A]

I mean that's an expensive jump though, right?

[B]

I guess. And I don't know what he thought that was gonna happen. I know who flies a Cessna with A skydiving rig on Instagram.

[A]

Likes. Yep.

[B]

Here we are. Yeah. Michael, Find it. He's the best.

[A]

Would you bet? Have you. You. You completely sacked the base jumping off, haven't you?

[B]

I have. Just because I don't have the access or time to even stay current in the skydiving world. So why layer that? You know, that. That extra on top of it. Go down, Michael.

[A]

Yeah. Bass jump is wild. I.

[B]

Did you get into it for a bit?

[A]

No, my. I've got a good friend that. That's a big base jumper. I don't know if you've heard of him. Tim Howell.

[B]

I have not.

[A]

He's a British guy, ex Royal Marine. But like, he's. Yeah, he's done like a load of world first. So he did Aconcagua. Highest mountain in South America or all of America's like Kilimanjaro. He's been trying over the last two years to jump off Lotze, which is the mountain next to Everest. So it'd be the highest wingsuit jump ever done. Last couple of years, he's failed. He got to the exit point last year and the weather turned. It was horrendous. Big wins, et cetera.

[B]

That's a tough decision to make, but I'm glad He did.

[A]

Yeah. 100%. I mean, I saw the video. It was gnarly. I mean, you wouldn't want to be on that exit point. Yeah. If you weren't jumping, let alone jumping. But I went out to climb with him in. In Switzerland, and we were. Lauter. Lauterbrunnen. Yeah.

[B]

How beautiful is that valley?

[A]

Amazing. Amazing. It is.

[B]

The standing at the entrance to the valley, looking into it, and you just hear canopies opening on both sides.

[A]

Yeah. But we'd. So going out, Tim was like, mate, you want to try base jumping? Yeah.

[B]

Just. Let's just give it a try. We'll just give it a try. It's a canopy, right. You know, we'll just get the canopy open and you'll sort it.

[A]

I was like, yeah, yeah, why not? I was like, is it like, I'll be all right? When I was like, yeah, you'll be fine. I think it was just after I come back from Seville and done three jumps. Yeah. So I flew out and we'd done a bit of climbing. We tried to climb this peak called Shrek. Shrekhorn. Got weathered off and we got gone back into Laut.

[B]

A lot of Browning, Lauter, Brunen. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And we'd hike to an exit point, one of the ones that They've made. So it's like a wooden structure. I remember looking over the edge and I was just like. I was like that.

[B]

It's a different experience.

[A]

So different.

[B]

Yeah, it. The zero airspeed starts are. For the first two or three seconds, you got to really nail body position. You gotta. You gotta initiate the start of that jump aggressively.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've seen it go bad enough. I was there with a buddy of mine who eventually ended up dying. BASE jumping, I don't want to. I don't want to over romanticize how dangerous it was, but I think we were there for two weeks and there were a minimum of six fatalities. I think there were eight.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[B]

And we would happen to be on the other side of the valley and it would. It would be an exit point on the other side. And the next day, not because we were trying to, you know, alternate or anything, but we were kind of naturally alternating and then something would happen, happen. It was. It's gnarly. It's very unforgiving.

[A]

I mean, if you roll the dice long enough. Right. So then you increase. You increase the odds of something happening.

[B]

Yeah. There's a relatively famous in the BASE jumping circles, community guy named Sketchy Andy.

[A]

Yeah, I see.

[B]

Just recently passed away, I think two days ago. Yeah.

[A]

That was at the place where he jumps Moab.

[B]

Yeah. And there was another person involved. It might have been a tandem operation. That nothing was without risk. Michael, you can look this up, but a skydiving aircraft crashed two days ago and killed 11 jumpers in the pilot.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And somewhere in the US I believe it was more on the East Coast. I tell people skydiving and BASE jumping is awesome until it's not. And it gets real gnarly real, real fast. BASE jumping even faster because you're so close, you know, the proximity. I think from what I heard of this, the plane was barely able to get off. Off.

[A]

I mean, bass jumping, at least it's a pretty quick one. Like if you have a skydiving in Missouri.

[B]

Yeah. Or most were from Missouri or Kansas. So. Yeah, it was in the. More towards the center of the U.S.

[A]

i mean, to be fair, I've been to those skydiving planes and some of those DZs. When you get in them, you're like, it's like a beat up old thing from the 70s.

[B]

It's best not to look.

[A]

Yeah, you go it up and I'm just like, okay, we're at the altitude now. If I jumped out, thought I'd be safe. What kind of jumping do you do free fall. Okay, I didn't do much. It's obviously Halo. Hey ho. When. When you're in the military and then we just jump Civvi out the back of the C130s. I never pursued it when I got out. I think probably because costs a lot of money. I do other sports, so. Like climbing, surfing, a bit of mountain biking. So to then pursue skydiving. I think it's a sport that. But if you're in, you're in. It's not one of those sports that you can kind of tickle and do a little bit every now and then.

[B]

I wouldn't recommend it for sure.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Currency and competency is real and especially if you like other outdoor activities, currency and competency and all those is real too.

[A]

And you can't diversify your portfolio too much because you start taking your, the ball off the game and other things. I don't know. Look, if I live next to a DZ and it was convenient, then it'd be something that I'd pursue. But, but like, I loved it, I enjoyed it, it's fun. But I equally think it's one of those that there's so much that goes into it for just that 42nd free fall. Do you know what I mean? It's like everything else, you know, the packing, the waiting around, the weather checks, the going up in the plane and then you just jump and do the descent. I think there's quite a lot that goes into it for that, you know, for the bang, for the buck kind of thing.

[B]

I agree. That's. Wingsuits were pretty awesome for that respect too because it changed the dye from being so vertical to being a lot more horizontal. And you could essentially triple the time you were in free fall too. They're pretty cool to scream around in.

[A]

Yeah. But again, you need the experience, right? You need to jump in quite a lot to even consider free fall.

[B]

I mean, you don't have to, but I would advise it.

[A]

Yeah, of course. But, yeah, equally like, I, I don't know, again, like you look at, you know, albeit the sketchy Andy thing, use a very experienced person. But, you know, I've been out to Chamonix plenty of times and, and my auntie and uncle now, you know, the shaman, they live out there. And you know, you'd get, you'd speak to the guides out there and they'd be like, oh, we had a fatality, you know, yesterday. There was one last week. And a lot of it comes from the wingsuit community and it's. Yeah, I don't know whether it's people with. Similar to Everest. Right. It's this thing that looks so exciting for people to try. And there's probably a lot of outfitters out there that are just like, I'll teach you how to. To BASE jump a wingsuit. And you need relative, you know, skydiver,

[B]

air time, skydiving and BASE jumping. The barriers to entry is essentially a credit card. You know, Everest, you're gonna have to go with somebody who knows what they're doing, who can get you the permissions.

[A]

And it's still a credit card, though.

[B]

Credit card. But it's. I could have. Not that I would ever recommend somebody could do this. You could take. You could buy on the Internet everything to BASE jump and go do it by yourself.

[A]

That's wild, by the way.

[B]

And you're not doing that with Everest. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, I get you.

[B]

So it's. And I don't. I felt it in myself when I was doing that stuff too. You. You know, if 10ft off the ground is cool in a wingsuit, is 9 better? Is 4 better that, you know, twice as good as 9? And you can get away with some stuff at times and, and you know that, you know the theory. There's your luck bucket and experience bucket, and you need to be heavy in the luck bucket to support someone to the experience. It's just so unforgiving. One mistake and. And you know, they're putting you into a parabag.

[A]

What was it for you? What was. What did you get from it?

[B]

I enjoyed the activity that like the actual sensation of doing it itself. But I really liked the mental focus and clarity that came from it. I liked the sensation of standing on those edges, zipping up. Having said that, utterly terrified. You could look around and be like, hey, man, can you hear my heart? Or is that just me being deafened by the sound of. Which I think is a natural reaction. If you don't have that, you may want to reconsider what the you're thinking about, because you're about to rock forward in nylon suit and send it, and you're gonna have the rest of your life potentially to sort out anything that may happen. But for me, it was a mental reset, man. It was because you're so in the moment that all the other BS of life would just fade away and it would last for a really long time. So it was impactful, but at what cost? As with everything we do, right? Risk versus reward. When we moved up here to Montana, my currency lapsed to the point where I realized, okay, you know, maybe I could go to the Perrine Bridge in Idaho where it's legal. Probably the only place it is, the only place in the US where it's legal 24 7, 365 and good facilities there. And there's a lot of first jump courses, like you're saying, outfits that will teach you how to jump there. But even then, the currency lapse a little bit more. Found jiu jitsu, fell in love with that and got a lot of that in the moment. Mental clarity afterwards as well. Way lower risk. Was it as powerful as BASE jumping? No, I would never say that. Do I need it to be that powerful anymore? No. Yeah, it's not worth it.

[A]

It's interesting. I get. I know exactly what you mean about the clearness and the clarity thing. It said when you're thinking about Only

[B]

the next 3 seconds of your life, it's funny how the bills matter. Not that they don't matter, but to free up that space in your mind and not have that them weighing on you like an 80 pound rucksack at all times.

[A]

I think that about like all the other sports that I do. It's like climbing, mountain biking, you know, being on a motorbike, all that kind of stuff. It's very similar. I do, I try and do a bit of track stuff on the motorbikes

[B]

but you have a deal with Ducati, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You do you like bikes?

[B]

My first bike was a Ducati Monster 1100 EV.

[A]

Yeah. Nice.

[B]

It was amazing. Yeah, I love bikes. Ducati's. It's pretty tough to find a dealership in Montana, let alone maintenance.

[A]

Italian. Italian brand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, they're wicked. The team are amazing. And Ducati is a. As an actual company, they've got World Ducati Week, which is in July. They run it every two years and it's basically Ducati spend millions on this huge like weekend festival basically to say, say if you're a Ducati owner. Thank you for being a Ducati owner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know any other bike brand that does that or any other brand, to be fair.

[B]

I don't think I know either.

[A]

They literally have like all. So any. Anyone that races in races. Ducati, which now is like all the top teams in like World Superbikes, Motor gp, they're all putting Ducati bikes on the, on the grid because it's the best bike. Yeah. It's the one that's winning all the races. You have like mark market, you know, last time I went, it was Pekko Banyaya and Jack Miller. They're there, they race around Mizano circuit. You get to watch them. Like all the world superbike guys are there. They have them like on this stage and everyone applauds them. It's like, it's amazing.

[B]

How did you become an ambassador for them?

[A]

It's probably a really shit story to be fair, but I just, I just reached out to them. I love Ducatis, love bikes. Yeah, yeah. And if there was, they are pieces of art.

[B]

Ducatis are pieces of art.

[A]

Amazing. I think they, like you say they belong in a museum. Yeah. I think I just reached out to them. I was like, if there's one brand that I want to work with, it'd be Ducati. And that was probably five years ago.

[B]

That's awesome. Good for you, man.

[A]

Yeah. But yes, going back to what I was saying that, you know, being on a. On a track and I've. I've chatted to. I know quite a lot of guys that race at quite a high level, like Islaman TT and the craziest wild bastard. I was literally just there last week.

[B]

Have you ridden the course?

[A]

No. I'd love to. I mean, I could never ride it at 100.

[B]

I mean, don't get me wrong, I would ride it in third gear. Yeah, just marine.

[A]

I don't know. There you go. Some serious speed in third gear.

[B]

Like Vespa.

[A]

You can go. I mean Ducati Panigale V4s will do 100 mile an hour in first.

[B]

I'm on a Vespa though, with a bubble helmet.

[A]

I'd love to see that.

[B]

I think Macchiato.

[A]

Imagine like when you google Andy Stump fits. Like, let's do you and I leather helmet.

[B]

We'll do an Isle of Man TT race on Vespas.

[A]

Yeah, we'll see. We'll see who wins.

[B]

Who cares? It'll be a 22 mile an hour race. Just leaning him over on the corner.

[A]

I think it'd be more dangerous than doing on a superbike. Of course it would be. It's wild. Like I was there last week. There's this place called the Secret Garden and it's the most random thing ever. Have you ever been to the race?

[B]

No, I've only watched it in absolute terror from afar.

[A]

So it's even more. You get even more of that feel of terror and like, of course, what the is going on when you're there. Yeah. Which is usually the other way. Watching on T. No, it's not. To be fair, watching it in real life. Is usually more date or looks more severe than.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On a screen. But there's this bit. So the Isle of Man itself is like the most random place ever. It's. It's a tax evasion place for. For people in the uk. So there's a load of empty properties. It's generally a rundown place because there's no industry there other than the tt. The only industry there is people that are trying to evade tax in the UK have bought a property and registered it as an office. It kind of looks like this place called Blackpool, which is close to where I grew up, which is a seaside town, which is a pretty rundown. We used to go there and watch like the black. Anyway, going off topic. So you kind of get the feel of the Isle of Man. There's kind of nothing there. It's not like a holiday destination. And every year this race happens and we went to this place called the Secret Garden which is literally a someone's garden. And you get dropped off in this bus. You walk down the street, you go into this like you're down the side of someone's garage which is quite a well trodden path because there must be so many people. Go through it. Yeah. Into a front garden. Then you head chop over to someone else's garden and then go around the back and there's a garage and a dude with a barbecue like selling burgers and beers. And then he's just got a wall on the front of his garden and loads of mattresses that he's laid down. And you are literally on a street. And you guys in the US have these huge streets. The Isle of Man in the UK we've got these tight. Yeah. Like super narrow. Yeah. Comparatively double tracked. Yeah. With a pavement either side or you know, what do you call the pavement? Sidewalk walk. And on the other side of this there's houses and front gardens and front drives. People have just set deck chairs up and like. And you're literally on the track and you hang over the side of this secret garden and the bike comes down and it's. We every like little bit of elevation change on the. The road it hits, it's like wheelieing. So these bikes are coming past probably doing about 120, 130 mile an hour in full wheelie. Probably about a meter and a half in front of your face.

[B]

That's gotta sound.

[A]

But the Secret Garden. Yes, the Secret Garden. I mean you need the sound.

[B]

Yeah. I'm Serena Williams and I'm healthier on roe. I've lost 34 pounds in a year. With GLP1's diet and exercise on RO, you can access GLP1 options including the first FDA approved GLP1 pill. For weight loss loss, go to Rourney to see if you qualify. 14 to 20% average weight loss in one year in non diabetics with obesity or overweight with a weight related medical condition versus 2.2% to 3.1% in placebo arm RX only. To stay informed about serious side effects, go to RO Co Safety Enhance Michael enhance. Currently it's not going to do it justice for in person, but yeah, it's

[A]

the craziest thing I've seen. So that wall there, there's paint on the wall from the leathers. There's paint so that.

[B]

Imagine if you hit that a quarter of an inch or a half an inch too much.

[A]

They're touching it. That's the craziest thing. Look how close. Like you said, full wheelie speed wobbles.

[B]

Just sending it.

[A]

Yeah, that's the Secret Garden. Yeah. God,

[B]

The sound of that is just unbelievable.

[A]

It's wild. Wild it up.

[B]

How often do people die?

[A]

So one guy died this year. Yeah.

[B]

Wasn't he one of kind of the legends from there too?

[A]

Yeah, he died on the, the qualifying so that he didn't die on a race. There was a lady, Maria, she's a sidecar. I think she's the, the ballast, as you'd call it.

[B]

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah.

[A]

So yeah, they canceled the sidecars this year. I think she. I don't know the, the details exactly, but I think she'd hit like where, you know, the, the change in direction on the road. And do you remember like how the old Formula one cars used to just float up in this, in the sky like the, the sidecars done that and obviously hit the deck and a bit.

[B]

Essentially you got enough elevation under the front to become a wing.

[A]

Literally that. Yeah, I mean it's the first, I think it's the first time it's ever happened to a sidecar. But they canceled the whole race.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she, she's in a pretty bad way. I think the driver is as well.

[B]

Risk versus reward.

[A]

Wild though. Like you hear that? That gets me excited again, the sound of the bike.

[B]

I would crush that in a Vespa with just a nice iced macchiato and a little cup holder. Big, massive, like cannonball with visor 100.

[A]

I think we should wear space. I think we should wear scarves and those glasses. Of course. War two aviators I think we should do genuine sidecar. Who's driving like a bike in a sidecar. We have to flip a coin.

[B]

I'm not getting in the sidecar.

[A]

You need, you need a scarf. And you.

[B]

That's the cuck seat. The sidecar is the cook seat. Ah, that's Michael's seat. He's in the cux.

[A]

Yeah. Michael could do it. Yeah. Why do you think I'm over here?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Have you ever watched any of the island stuff, Michael?

[A]

No, just this is like the first time I've seen it.

[B]

It in your own time. They have obviously some POV footage from what it's probably not even. It's a good representation. I think of at least the angle that the driver's seeing. It looks like the space jump in Star wars the Millennium Falcon. Just. I, I can't even, can't even fathom how they're processing, let alone doing it's. I'm. They're not thinking about it obviously, but. But manipulating the bike at the speed. I mean they're just pegged out like

[A]

microseconds of kind of body awareness. And you ever met any of the drivers, the racers, they're like a different breed of human being.

[B]

In what sense? They seem fearless? Or are they overly calculating or are they heavy on the tism side?

[A]

Very wired.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah, a lot of them are. Even some of the kind of superbike racers that. That race on track. I find a lot of them are very. Just like, like they're good to go, but all the time very like speak very fast. Just like, yeah, this, that, blah blah, blah, blah.

[B]

Just like when you're 50, when you're 60, what does that look like? 70? Or do you. Does your candle burn so bright that maybe you're lucky to make it that far?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know. Because you get to a point where. I don't know if you found this with base jumping and skydiving and doing what perceivably is a more dangerous thing. You get to a point where what you got from it years ago, the adrenaline, the, the clarity of mind, the. Yeah. Needing to do something to prove to yourself or whoever that you can do something that's wild. That flame itself dies off a little bit the older you get.

[B]

I would agree. Some people though are wired so tight. I just don't know how their engine, internal engine burns.

[A]

Yeah. The nervous system.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I'm not a doctor, full disclosure, but I wonder about the long term longevity of that. But I I love that there are people. The human species is fascinating. It's wild the fact that there are people out there like that who want to do that stuff. I couldn't be more supportive.

[A]

Same.

[B]

Yeah. It's one of the things I like more about Europe. When it comes to base jumping. It is risky. People are going to die. But in Lauterbrunnen they're not shutting down the valley because people are making the choices. That is their choice to make, whether they have a full understanding of the risk or not. Individual and the person. But it's just viewed differently. And I can appreciate that. And I don't know where that comes from.

[A]

It's interesting, isn't it? Because equally it doesn't bring any money through tourism.

[B]

I bought a lot of cappuccinos. I did. I would like to do a nice pack job, a nice cappuccino and go send another one.

[A]

One. How many coffees can you drink a day? Cuz you own a coffee company.

[B]

A lot.

[A]

What's the maximum?

[B]

12.

[A]

Seriously? In a day? Doubles.

[B]

I mean why do we have to. Not everything has to be counted. There's a lot of judgment.

[A]

12 double coffees in a day.

[B]

Why does that have to be a double? Kind of. What's a double coffee?

[A]

Right. So what would a coffee consist of?

[B]

Coffee means just coffee. That means just drip coffee.

[A]

But you can't you talk about a caffeinated coffee like how many, how many caffeine it. 12. 12. Would you like consider. I'm not judging by the way. I think it's impressive.

[B]

The look of in your face is a little bit of judgment. I'm not saying I do that anymore.

[A]

Was it the coffee competition that the woman died? Was that sort of competition?

[B]

But I mean I know that's equally. I know there's a lethal dose to caffeine. No.

[A]

When we first were open, would you like say you hit the 12th one? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it still having the same effect as.

[B]

Oh no, no, you're through the effect. You stop at the 12th one because you think you're gonna die.

[A]

Just heart boom, boom, boom, boom.

[B]

Sweating.

[A]

I find like the more coffee I drink, the less the effects. I, I feel like it's.

[B]

That's because our adrenal glands are burned out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Our endocrine systems don't work anymore.

[A]

Amen. Amen.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, this was earlier in my coffee journey. No, I'll have two cups of coffee. Coffee day at this point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I also don't want to drink too much because I, I, I do enjoy the taste of coffee. I like the morning kind of routine aspect to it as well. But if I have more, I want it to be able to have that effect same. You know what I mean? If I need a little bit of a. Hey, I need to be a little bit more awake or didn't sleep well enough, I don't want to be so immune to the effects of caffeine through over consumption that it doesn't work.

[A]

I. I quit it in January for a month. Yeah. First time I'd done it in like horrible. I weirdly found it easy. It's bizarre.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was finding. Weirdly last year I was having like one coffee in the morning finding like I had this weird thing with my speech where I was thinking of what to say but the words couldn't come out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know whether it was stress related or. But I blamed coffee.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And quit it for a month just to see how I got. It was fine. But like, I wouldn't say it was. I wouldn't go. I don't know. I like drinking coffee like. Like you say. Right. I like that morning routine of getting up, making a coffee, sitting out in the garden if there's no rain. But I wouldn't say that being off coffee was any better for my energy levels or clarity of mind than being on it. Like when I first started drinking it again, I was just like, all right. Yeah. I just feel the same.

[B]

Hey, teach their own. You know, we might have a slightly different sliding scale than some other people

[A]

based off our experiences. I think we're pretty normal, mate.

[B]

I think we're normal at all. The stuff you do now, what do you enjoy the most? So you have your guiding company. I know you do ambassador stuff for a couple of different brands, which is an interesting journey in and of itself. But out of all the stuff you do now, what do you enjoy the most?

[A]

I like surfing. I enjoy surfing in I. I think the older I get, the more I do stuff because of the experience and less trying to push myself in a direction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've never been a. A naturally talented climber, but I've always done it because I just enjoy being on a mountain doing something that's different from the day to day. Monoton. Monoton. Monoton. Monotony of me.

[B]

Monotony.

[A]

Monotony.

[B]

Now you're me up. Monotony.

[A]

Monotony.

[B]

Listen, you guys created the language. You need to probably dial this in. Monotony.

[A]

Monotony.

[B]

Michael, are either of us saying the same in America?

[A]

Easy. Yeah.

[B]

Say English Though it is English, just so you know.

[A]

No, but you say it in American accent,

[B]

speaking English.

[A]

Monotony. Monotony.

[B]

Monotomy.

[A]

Say it English. Monotony. Monotony.

[B]

I can't do your accent. You just did it.

[A]

It's like nonchalant. That's like a. You guys say it because we pick it up from the films. But it's. It's actually nonchalant, isn't it?

[B]

No, it's nonchalant.

[A]

I say it nonchalant again, as those American.

[B]

As the country that my understanding founded, the English language. I don't know why you're asking me. There's no such thing as American. There's American accent, but we're still speaking English.

[A]

If I don't Netflix American. Okay, but it is English. You're right. The queens.

[B]

Yeah, Kings now, which also.

[A]

God bless.

[B]

It's a little bit weird. How is that living under the rule of someone else?

[A]

Well, you don't really live under the rule, do you? To be fair, it'd probably be good if it went back to the monarchy.

[B]

How is the UK doing these days? So the Depends.

[A]

If you.

[B]

Yeah, the US news optic, depending on where you gather your information from or whatever narrative they are going down campaign it to be pretty gnarly in the US optic, I think. Or not. Not the total US optic, but in some media sources, essentially the narrative is, and I'm paraphrasing, you guys are losing control of your country through unchecked immigration. Some people have said the same thing about the US as well. So it's not a unique, you know, immigration is immigration throughout the world. But as somebody who lives there, how's the UK doing?

[A]

I think there's quite a few issues with the UK that are going on at the minute. I think you. What you have is you have something like immigration. Right. There's obviously a large influx of migrants, or whatever the correct phrase is, coming in from countries all over the world to. To seek asylum in the uk, which is a genuine issue. And I think that could be an issue that could be dealt with better than the way that it's being dealt with now. But what you've got is a government or a country that's essentially skin. Like we don't have any money. And if you look at our gdp, it's like we don't generate enough money through taxes to be able to pay off the interest for the debt that we owe, let alone the debt. So albeit it. You have migration, you have unemployment, you have school and you have policing, you have all These issues that at the minute aren't the greatest, you know, benefits, I don't know what you guys call it where someone that doesn't work, they get paid by the government. Social services. Yeah, we call it benefit. So ultimately you have a list of, of issues that have been, you know, created over the last however many years, but you've got a government or an establishment that doesn't have the money to be able to do anything about these issues. If we were a wealthy country that had a shit ton of cash, you'd be able to look at migration and go, well, let's throw a billion quid at migration and let's bring in the right people to be able to do something about that situation. Whether it's give them jobs, whether it's, take some of them back that we don't want there, whether it's, it's whatever it is, you don't have the, the ability to be able to do something with that. Same as policing. Right. You could look at policing. So for example, the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan changed. We had a stop and search rule where anyone could be stopped and searched. It was brought into look at knife crime. We've obviously not got a huge gun crime situation, but it's mainly knife crime. Interracial gangs, or not interracial, but you know, a lot of gang crime in, in the UK where they use knives and stab each other. That got eradicated and Sadiq Khan put all the money and funding into the whole social media thing. You know, you say the wrong thing on social media now you can be arrested again. You know, some people believe in that, some people don't. I generally think violence on the streets probably a bigger issue than sticks and stones, but may break my bones kind of things, but who am I to say?

[B]

Policing speech and I am not an expert in humanity, but I can't think of an example of where that led to anything good.

[A]

No, I mean it, it saddens me if I'm being honest, Andy, because, you know, I, I might get the story wrong, but I'm pretty sure that we had an attack on a, a kid's school. You know, you're talking four to six year old girls at a dance class in, in a town called Southport. It was actually close to where I grew up and this, this dude went in and stabbed them all like, you know, stabbed one of the girls like 36 times or whatever the numbers were. Obviously Southport erupted as it should. Do the people, you know, want something done about that? Because that shouldn't happen, right And. And some of the people in that group had posted stuff on Facebook and they were arrested. For an opinion.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not a fan, man.

[A]

I'm not. I'm not a fan either. So, again, it's like you've got all these. These issues. You've got policing. I think it's, you know, know I'm from. You know, I've worked in the military. I grew up fearing the police as a kid. Like you, they. They drove onto the park that we were drinking on. You'd all run because if they got hold of you, you'd get a slap around the face.

[B]

Yeah, you're gonna get knocked around a bit.

[A]

Yeah. You'd probably gob off to them and get a spray of CS gas in your face. It was like, that's just what happened. Like, I wouldn't turn around and say that they were in the wrong.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'd say it's all part of the fun. But now it's like, you know, the. You look at. The iPhone's got a camera on it. They're all getting filmed. They're under scrutiny. It's like, you know, I saw a video of a police officer punch a guy on the floor the other day. It's not the best thing to do to punch a person on the floor. But, like, I think at the minute the police are sat in this space where they don't want to do anything because anything that they do, do, do comes under so much scrutiny that, you know, that they would be pulled off their work and harassed. I've seen a friend recently be harassed on social media and Facebook because she wasn't even involved in something that happened in the uk. I don't know if you saw the thing that happened in Southampton where two sea clads had stabbed an English, a white English guy. They'd use the seek knife. I don't know what it's called. And they then called the police and said that this gut. They'd been involved in a racial attack. So the police officers turned up and arrested the guy that had been stabbed four times, and he bled out on the floor and. And she'd been, you know, anyway, she. I'm probably not gonna. I don't really want to go into details because it's her life as well, but. But, yeah, I. Look, I'd like to see police have the power back. I'd like to see police not have the finger pointed at them as much because equally we're spending, you know, an armed police officer shoot someone in London with two knives. Stuck to them. That police officer then gets pulled out because an inquiry is happening and they can't carry on working. That inquiry itself costs millions of quid.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And we don't have any money as a country, we have no money. So we're pulling our own police out of their job and putting them in an inquest or whatever with money that we struggle to be able to do anything with as a government. You know, the stats came out for how much tax was brought into the country last year or whatever it was the last tax year. And we actually generate less money. What was the detail? So we give out. I might have to fact check this, I might get it wrong, but I'm

[B]

sure Michael's good at this.

[A]

I'm sure it was like we brought in less money through taxes last year than we gave out in social services.

[B]

Are you hopeful for the future of the uk or do you see it getting worse before it gets better?

[A]

Better, worse, if I'm being honest.

[B]

What does that end up looking like? We're talking people banging it out in the streets and to. To demand a change.

[A]

Well, like all these. All these. Yes, the statement is correct. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, raised 3,331 billion in income tax. Well, total, you put out 333. It's only $2 billion. It's not that much.

[A]

Yeah, of course, yeah. So the thing is with this, right, is their answer then is, well, increase taxes, find different ways that we can tax people in the uk, then the people in the UK don't like that. So I think equally, all these separate problems that the UK has, they cause massive diversity within people of the uk. Right. It's like the stop and search thing. There's a huge disagreement with that, that. But that will then cause violence on the streets of the uk. It's like the immigration thing, it's like that causes, you know, a stabbing or a sexual assault happens by a. A migrant and it's like that whole town then erupts and the police come in and then the police are under scrutiny. So each one of these individual issues just causes the whole of the UK to separate. When, you know, the answer to. Is, the answer to it is that we all come together in some way. Some way. But I seem to think that everything that happens these days just pulls us apart and I, I equally don't see the answer to that because you, you want to live in a free state where people are able to do anything that they want. But, but equally, the, the downside to living in a free state and a Non governed state is that this happens.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Absolute chaos.

[B]

Freedom isn't free. There's a cost to everything.

[A]

You look at a country like Dubai,

[B]

made in purses unacceptable.

[A]

But like it's, it's a strict, it's a rage. Well, it's a, you'd argue and say it's a democratic regime. Right.

[B]

Because I think they would want you to say that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not sure it's true.

[A]

Well, they're paying me. No, perfect. Of course. No, but as in it's, it's strict. Right. I'm trying to think of some, one of the rules. But it's, it's governed by a royal family that make decisions that for the greater good of that country. And it's. If you step out of line, it's not that the police then come under scrutiny. If a police officer whacks you around the head. So for example, if you get, you

[B]

come under scrutiny for what you did, not the consequences that you suffered because

[A]

of your actions, which that should be

[B]

a given in a world that makes sense to me. Yes. Yes. What's fascinating is that people will argue for the opposite of that and I don't understand it. I try to understand, I want to understand why they feel that way. Not going to say that I agree with them but I don't understand how that belief has long term sustainability.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

So hell if I know.

[A]

I get the sentiment. Right. Like it's fluffy, it's nice. Like police officers shouldn't be going around and like hitting people. But like, like, like you say we're humans and we're all dumb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like we need pointing in a direction and if we don't have that direction then you know, we're just left to our own devices. And it works. In a country like Dubai. It's like you as a, a white English person in Dubai, if you get into a fight with a, an Arab man, it's like you don't have a leg to stand on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you go to prison. Are you getting deported? But the knock on effect of that means that I don't go out looking for fights, General. No one does. Yeah. So everyone behaves. Yeah. And albeit in a country where you can go out and buy a 50 million pound house in cash. Right. Great for the economy. Also great for people that are sat on a load of cash that don't want to tie it up in tax taxable countries. But they're all on the best behavior because they step out of line and, and that 50 million pound house becomes a seized asset.

[B]

Yeah. It's state property now, but no one's

[A]

walking around with the head down feeling oppressed. It's like the freest place I've ever been.

[B]

I've been to the airport.

[A]

What'd you think of the airport?

[B]

I sat in the lounge.

[A]

Good coffee.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Do you become a coffee snob now? A judge. A judger.

[B]

No, I drink for effect, not taste.

[A]

That should be the banner. Yeah.

[B]

Much like alcohol when I drink, it's. That's, you know. Do you taste the.

[A]

Yeah, you know, this, this.

[B]

It seems like this barrel was soaked in cherry water. I'm like, shut the up, dude. Tastes like 87 octane gasoline.

[A]

You just shot at it.

[B]

Yeah, like it tastes like gasoline and you know it. You pretentious.

[A]

Do you still drink?

[B]

Every once in a while. I have. The older I get, the less I have a desire to do so. I've never. For me, my relationship with alcohol has always been healthy. I can put it down when I want to and pick it up when I want to. I just. I enjoy being productive more than I enjoy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm like. I think the last time I drank had a couple glasses of wine with my last night. No, but I would have, I mean, if my wife had wanted to. But she works late on Mondays. So, yeah, we did have the chance. She got home later. But yeah, a couple glasses of wine with my wife, it's fantastic. You know, but like my days of going out and partying largely over.

[A]

Were you a part?

[B]

Yeah, when the occasion demanded it. Of course it's a rise to said occasion.

[A]

It's crazy because alcohol is so fun. At the same time it.

[B]

I was having this conversation. I just was on Andrew Huberman's show. He's was a fantastic person as well. And he. He even said. He goes, I can't believe I'm about to ask you this, but is there something missing for the younger generation having not drank? And I would say there is some positive. Even if it's just a social lubricant and if you can manage your catastrophes that you have and keep them not life changing. I think people need to make mistakes. But some of the most memorable experiences in my life with my friends involved alcohol. And again, correlation versus causation. I don't think the alcohol caused it, but it was correlated with it there. And I wouldn't. I don't want to take those back. Yeah, it's interesting now raising my daughter's 18, my middle son's getting ready to turn 21 and my oldest is 23. Watching their generation's relationship with alcohol and seeing them kind of go through that journey as well too. It's a little. It's weird to see it on the other side of the coin now, watching the next generation come up through it.

[A]

Do they drink or.

[B]

On occasion they talk a big game. Game. And then the.

[A]

You know, so did I when I was 18.

[B]

Totally. But at 18, a hangover should last about four seconds and get back on the horse there, cowboy. You know, the, the. Michael, pull up the alcohol. Current alcohol sales.

[A]

The.

[B]

Right now in the us, the alcoholic market is in trouble.

[A]

Same in the uk.

[B]

Yeah. The younger generations are drinking less and not all of them, but just, just obviously a massive difference. I'll be curious to see how they sort it.

[A]

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? I think I randomly was chatting to a student recently. Bournemouth, where I live, is a big student town. But they're still. They're still partying but not drinking. Yeah.

[B]

60% down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it's. Can you get a graph, Michael, of consumption?

[A]

Yeah. Do you always use Google AI?

[B]

I don't know what he does over there.

[A]

Yeah, I do, but just because it's easier.

[B]

We're not like, Joe, let's go log into our sponsor, Perplexity.

[A]

That's it. You use Perplexity.

[B]

I never have.

[A]

No, use use AI. You said you use.

[B]

I use Claude time to time for anything.

[A]

I only use, you know, you're doing pictures of your mates.

[B]

I don't really know what gross rock is for. Or Twitter or X or whatever it's supposed to be called. Instagram is the easiest. It's pictures. I get that one.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I don't go on X either. It just looks like a minefield of. Of reading and I'm not a big reader. Yeah.

[B]

It's not like it's the little. Oh, it actually is lowest it's ever been. But, you know, we've had some other low points too. 1985.

[A]

55. I wonder why that was. Why was. Why was alcohol so bad in 1957? Probably is that.

[B]

I don't know. The 70s were bangers. Look at that.

[A]

Yeah, that's when all the babies were cocaine and martinis. So cocaine was cheap. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, Michael's in that generation.

[A]

He drinks weird. I wonder. So equally, that conversation you had with Huberman. I wonder what the benefit is, is to eat as well. Because ultimately you've got this downside that kids that Aren't drinking as much, aren't having, you know, making the mistakes. Yeah.

[B]

Social interactions and stuff.

[A]

But what's the. What's the benefits to that other than, say, health?

[B]

Probably health, yeah.

[A]

Are we equally. With the. The rise of social media, are we creating these, like, socially inadequate kids? Do you see that?

[B]

I see it in adults, too. This health maxing trend. Don't get me wrong, I want to live the most meaningful and longest life possible, but I see people acting like they're sick so that they can live longer.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Meaning. And I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon here of the guy who was the host of the dyer, the CEO, but he's talking about how he got basically annihilated by a couple glasses of wine.

[A]

He's getting hammered for that.

[B]

First off, put your stirrups on, cowboy. It's okay to not feel your best all the time, but I get the maximizing sleep. I get abstaining from everything that could have a negative consequence. But if you go to the point where you're gonna stay home because you don't want to go out because you're gonna be exposed to too much blue light or other people or whatever it may be, and you have to sleep during this time window, and you're missing out on life experiences, so you're basically shutting yourself in to optimize your health. You're acting like a fucking sick person to try to. You know what I mean? To optimize your health. It's a little bit of a rough analogy, but it's like, dude, it's okay to podcast when you don't feel you're absolutely absolute best you. It's okay. You're not gonna die if you read your iPad right before you go to bed. You get people acting like they're gonna get bodied by an iPad screen. You know it. I also understand the benefit of it, but we're all. None of us are getting out of this alive. Read the iPad.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Drink a nice bottle of red wine from France, and if you don't feel great, still go do the shit that you need to do.

[A]

Yeah. Banga hooker.

[B]

Okay, again, that was Jay that said that. Not

[A]

drink 12 coffees. Yeah. I mean, cheat on your partner. You know, bass jump when you just bought the kit off ebay.

[B]

Yeah. What I want.

[A]

Live a little, guys.

[B]

What I don't want to do is be on my deathbed regretting the things I didn't do.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah. Or.

[B]

Or to buy myself Five more years. But I miss out on five years of life experiences. No thank you. And that works for me. I'm not saying other people need to live like that, but man. So optimize your sleep. Great. What are you doing with it? Do you have to get up and journal for two hours, to meditate, for two hours to cold plunge, to sauna, to do your mobility work, to get in your red light therapy, to go to your massage? You're like working a full time job before your full time job, which. And live your life however you want to. But what are you doing with all

[A]

that and how much? So say, for example, if. I think it's probably just a. I think what you end up seeing, which is pretty much the Internet in general, is you see like the extreme fringe of stuff. Do you know what I mean? It's like normal people like us, we're trying to get seven to eight hours sleep. Sleep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're trying to drink three liters of water every day. We're trying to eat healthy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I don't want to booze all the time because I feel like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you end up. The Internet seems to show you like someone like Brian Johnson. Right.

[B]

Or Stephen Bartlett or Brian Johnson. If you live your life. I'm not judging. What I'm about to say is slightly judgmental though. If you have to walk around outside with a umbrella, live your life how you want to. But God damn it, what are we doing here?

[A]

We should do the TT with umbrellas on our Vespas.

[B]

We could, we could have umbrellas.

[A]

We toot them like white ones. The ones that look like the cocktail stick umbrellas.

[B]

I know, but it's like, what are we doing, man?

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

What are we doing?

[A]

I agree. And what stress is that giving you? Do you know what I mean? Because equally all that shit's great. But if you're stressing over getting six hours of sleep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you're stressing over the fact that. That you looked at your phone before you went to bed. Do you know what I mean? It's like if you, if you're stressing

[B]

over that stuff, if that's gonna unwind your day. I'm sorry, you're not. You're not as resilient as you could be. And I'm not saying live your life like that, but it's okay. The machine should be able to run on diesel fuel sometimes, as opposed to high octane.

[A]

Now he rotated in his seat.

[B]

Be rotating his seat.

[A]

That's a shame.

[B]

Yeah. No, dude, the diary, Stephen Barlett is. He's taking it on the chin right now.

[A]

Yeah, he's. He got hammered.

[B]

No, he didn't. It was only three glasses of wine. He's acting like he just went out and just blitzed it, man. And then Chris Williamson is a friend of mine too, a good friend. He's sitting there wearing his orange, like red light glasses. I'm just like.

[A]

I do think it's like a. A. A bit of ocd, though. I do.

[B]

It's like it can become your whole identity and again, live your life how you want. I want to be as healthy as possible so I can do as many awesome things as possible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's really the end state I want to be able to have. If I travel and they have a Chateau Neuf de Pop of a certain Vinnie, I'm gonna drink the goddamn bottle of wine with my wife because it's amazing for clarity. I don't even know if that's a real thing, but I feel like that that's an expression.

[A]

Nerve to pop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel like it's real. It's French, obviously. The nif give away. I've seen it on menus. I think it's really expensive.

[A]

It's wild though, isn't it? It's like all those like. Like Huberman's podcast. It's like. It's like. And it's an amazing podcast. Like, you get so much from it. I mean, I struggled to get to the end of it, but I feel like.

[B]

Tell you the same thing though, though. You still have to live life.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

I. I think. I believe he would say that. I've never asked him that question, but I believe he would say, even for himself, the purpose of optimizing is to optimize your experiences as well, too, not to limit them. And it's a balance. And people can live that balance however they want to. But don't walk around with a umbrella, you know?

[A]

But it's that thing. It's. You might know someone like this, that 90 year old, for some reason, it seems to be women chain smoking. Yeah. And they're like 106. Yeah.

[B]

But that doesn't scale. You know what I mean? There's always going to be a white elephant that is anomalous.

[A]

What about cigars?

[B]

I don't know. They say you're not supposed to inhale. I don't. Who knows? The thing is, just because one lady in Tennessee can live to 106 on cigars and Budweiser doesn't mean that scales for everybody else.

[A]

But I think the something that we can take from it because I reckon that woman doesn't care that she smokes 20 a day or whatever it is. She doesn't get stressed that she's not. Do you know what I mean? She's not trying to health max.

[B]

I think at that point she's trying to end it. She's just. How do I get this to stop?

[A]

How mad smoking by the way.

[B]

As in like it's never been my thing. I never got into it.

[A]

How do you get into it? It fucking stinks.

[B]

It does. I think it. It's the. What's in cigarettes? Nicotine. I think if you can get through the shitty taste. I think initially I think you get a buzz off of it from the nicotine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I never got into it.

[A]

It's a generation thing because years ago people got told it was cool.

[B]

They used to come in MREs. The World War II. Seriously? Yeah. The Lucky's. Yeah. They used to come. Cigarettes would come. Two cigarettes per mre.

[A]

I know they. We used to get rum rations. I mean not me personally but World War II.

[B]

It's pretty dope at least. Your guys fobs usually used to have booze. They would tell us that we had to have dry areas. Like I know where to go.

[A]

No, it was the other way around.

[B]

I'm not saying that we were dry. They told us we had to

[A]

be fair. When you get in the special Forces we just. We'd actually fly with because the operational theater itself was dry. But in theory I remember going into the stores and we just pack up so much booze and take it out with us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They were some of the wildest piss ups.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

Yeah. Indeed. What did you write your book about and when that come out, by the way, I know it's not like a super.

[A]

Yeah. 2020.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was so story of life pretty much from start to finish but just pulling up, pulling out all kind of valuable lessons that I've learned serving in the military, climbing mountains.

[B]

How does the SAS or SBS community view people who write books or who are open about their service?

[A]

I think if you grew up in my peer group in my era. No really cares. I think there's a.

[B]

As long as you stay inside of the boundaries. Obviously.

[A]

Yeah. And work have to sign it off. Yeah. So you can't just write a book and then release it. You can, but you could be, you know, whatever legal action could be taken against you. So you write the script and then you send it off to. To work and they proofread it and make sure that you're not giving anything away. I think it's a very, I don't know what it's like over here, but

[B]

it shifts and it depends on the community.

[A]

Yeah, it's more the older generation, the silent professionals. Yeah, more the old and bold that have hung around in the unit for however many years that don't like that. And I get it. Do you know what I mean? I understand that they don't want that to happen and they don't want a load of young lads going out and making a success or trying to make a success of themselves based on the stories of, of what they did in their.

[B]

But I bet they want more people volunteering for it.

[A]

And, and that's what that does, right? It generates. Same with a TV show.

[B]

There's a difference between silent professional and quiet professional. The people who demand that nothing be said, they want everybody to be quiet. I read books, I was looking at the military. There was pre Internet. I went to the library. I found historical books about the community. They were incredibly inspirational and aspirational. I probably still would have gone down that path. But if you're completely quiet as opposed to, you know, silent and saying and working inside of those boundaries, I think one is okay. It's like, come on. And the older, it's the same thing. There's a lot of the older generation, nothing should ever be said. And I want to pull them aside, be like, listen, have you ever been in a bar and tried to get laid by telling somebody what you did? You hypocrite. Yeah, I get it.

[A]

It's not an open trainer.

[B]

Yeah, it's, I, I, it's not. You didn't write a book. But what you're saying is what you did is okay because it worked for you and you don't like seeing people do what they are doing. You yourself haven't been the quiet professional. So let's just take our hypocrisy and take a step back. Having said that, I think there's a right way and a wrong way to do it.

[A]

I agree. I think there's a right way and a wrong way, I think, But I think, look, the majority of us don't want to do it the wrong way anyway.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Like I don't want to write a book that like, I, I respect the opinion of the people I served with and I, albeit when you leave, you're not part of that unit anymore, you're part of the history of it. I still value their opinion and I would Hate to think that the lads that I fought with side by side, thinking of pricks. I wrote something in a book. Work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I've just failed at being a Special Forces, you know, operator, like in the past. But, yeah, it's the same. It's the older generation that it's the same. With the TV show, it was when it first came out, I was still serving and I remember sat in a sauna full of dudes and this is an interesting story beginning and we were all talking about it and we're all similar peer group. And I sometimes, I mean, I think with a lot of, like, people's opinions in serving in the military in a big group, it's a lot of just picking up on what someone else says. It's like pack mentality. And because they've spoken to three people in the canteen that think that everyone that did the TV show is a prick, now they think that their approach,

[B]

having never watched it, I mean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, literally that. Literally that. It was literally in the sauna, they were all just going, that TV show. And I was just like, what? I was like, have you watched it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were like, no. I was like, it's actually pretty good. And I was like, if anything, it brings our units into good light. Like, people are watching it and going, who are these guys?

[B]

You want to inspire people?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's a. Again, there's a wrong way and a right way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the longer that TV show went off on, it's turned into a reality TV show, which is it's come away from giving people access to the Special Forces, and now it's just a TV show that's got a few Special Forces dudes on it.

[B]

It's tough. I mean, in that world, we had a success. What do we have to do more to make the next one more successful and more successful? I get it. There's always a. A pull between authenticity and entertainment and. And entertainment will win at the end of the day because it's an entertainment industry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I get that.

[A]

And it's built by people making entertainment for sure.

[B]

What else you got left on your bucket list? You got any big goals or aspirations that you're aiming for? How old are you now too, by the way?

[A]

42.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

How old are you?

[B]

48.

[A]

Yeah. How was your 40s?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Just trying. Just drank the whole way, man.

[B]

I don't feel 48. I wake up every day and I try to figure out. Out what I'm going to do. That day I don't look very much at the number on a. A driver's license. I don't feel like I'm 48. You know, age is real. It's coming for us all, but they're okay. I think maybe I have figured myself out a little bit more. That's probably what I found in my 40s, and I. I have found that. And then also the realization looking back, I was a total idiot for the 30s and 20s.

[A]

Yeah. That's what the.

[B]

You just don't know. Yeah, it's tough, man.

[A]

But I think in your younger years, you do things for different reasons. Right. And I think you hit a stage in life where you just stop caring about other people's opinions and all that kind of stuff. And it's like you kind of hone in on. Right. What makes me feel good moving forward or what.

[B]

Or what I don't like. I've been able to identify that one more. This is what I don't want to waste my time doing. This is. Is what has. I've tried and didn't serve me well and I wasted my time. So we're not going to do that anymore.

[A]

What was that kind of stuff?

[B]

Money. Honestly, for the sake of looking at a number in an account or a desire to acquire things over. It's the argument between the status or the utility of something and I've never been one that really sought status. But. And I think this is probably just a. A younger person's game. You see something flashing like, oh, it's gonna be amazing if I could just get that, then that's a mark of success and you get it and you realize a month later you didn't give a. About the thing. So for me, at this point in my life, the last thing I think about is money at this point is, is this what I actually want to do? Regardless of the size of the check that might be associated with it. That was very helpful for me.

[A]

It's interesting because all that stuff is quite intoxicating. Yeah. It's like, even. I don't know if you experienced it with a TV show. It was like. Like having just been a soldier my whole life, coming out and doing a TV show, and I hit it at a time when it was probably at its peak. It's quite intoxicating having people coming up to you and going like, are you Jay off the TV show? Like, it feels good. Like there's a dopamine hit that's related to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But equally, it's not sustainable. Like, it's not real life.

[B]

Yeah, well. And if you wanted it to be sustainable. I don't have it inside of me to do the thing things necessary to climb that ladder.

[A]

Yeah. Same. I equally wouldn't want it.

[B]

Same.

[A]

Do you know like equally like Rogan like here and going like he goes to a restaurant and there's people trying to get pictures of him and stuff. I'd hate that.

[B]

I know. I know Joe pretty well. I would consider him a good friend. I. And I know some people in that level of fame. I would take the money because of what I could do in my life and what I could do with other people. Experiential based. Not thing based on. You can have that fame. I don't think he can live a normal life. Can you imagine having an unlimited amount of resources but you have to govern your behavior because you literally can't do the things that you want to do. It's tough.

[A]

Yeah. I mean he's lucky because he's got an open platform where he can pretty much say what he wants.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like the. Imagine being a Hollywood actor.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Where you can't even say what you want. You're. You're a product of. You're a robot.

[B]

Yeah. Or you're going to be replaced before you.

[A]

You and you're going to be replaced by robots pretty soon.

[B]

Or AI at least.

[A]

That's a weird world, isn't it? I thought about that the other day. As in.

[B]

Well, when we work for the robots

[A]

or AI But I. I think soon enough. Like all. Because you see in films now and it's at the detriment of films.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like all films are like we saw the green screen thing come in and now it's like at a CGI is like old news. Right. It's all generated from whatever AI or whatever you want to call it. I might not get this right, but you know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's going to be a point where there's AI actors.

[B]

They're already worried about that. They're already talking about replacing all extras with artificially generated individuals.

[A]

It's crazy. But. But like we're older Ish dudes like the kids, you know, they're going to be into it. As in they're going to follow AI People that aren't real.

[B]

It's already happening. There's already people who have massive accounts making money on like AI Only Fan type stuff. AI Instagram. Oh yeah.

[A]

Seriously, you've seen that stuff.

[B]

I've never once been on Only Fans again. Live your life however you want to People I happen to absolutely cherish my wife. It's. And I'm just. You know what I mean? That's not. That's not a bridge I'm gonna. I'm gonna cross. And so. Yeah, I don't know, man. I tell you this, though. AI is never going to lead somebody up a mountain.

[A]

Well, I don't know if the robots just climb that mountain and.

[B]

No, they'll trip and fall.

[A]

Like, watch that. Can you get that up the AI that climb.

[B]

Climb the mountain robot might be able to climb a mountain itself. It's not going to be able to read the client that they're with and know where they're at in their ability. Right. And they have to be able to connect and maybe get elicit performance or behavior out of them beyond what they think. You know what I mean? Like. Yeah, I don't think it's.

[A]

Yet.

[B]

I don't know, man.

[A]

I get. I get you. There's a level of guiding that there's

[B]

always going to be some industry that I think is going to be less touched by AI. I think experience might fly the helicopter

[A]

up there for you, but I think the experiential sector, tough, because equally humans are going to want to experience things more so and more so now that AI is taken over.

[B]

I think so, actually, I think you're going to see. I think you will see a resurgence and we'll call it Analog Desires.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think you're already seeing it. Yeah.

[B]

With an appreciation. I think you can have a simultaneous appreciation for analog stuff and the innovation and evolution. Like I use AI tools for aggregating information, or menial. Like, if I have to do an Excel spreadsheet, I'm throwing that into Claude.

[A]

Oh, it's so good, though.

[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

So good.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

I only discovered it the other day

[B]

and I don't know how to do any of that stuff. And I could pay a professional to do that stuff, or I could pay 20 bucks a month and throw it into Claude. Double check, check to make sure that it's working properly. Maybe have to go for a few iterations and then I'll go do something analog. Well, you know what I mean. It's not running my life, but I'm using the tools for sure. What are you looking at?

[A]

Oh, is that it? This is the robot? Yeah. What did it climb some mountain in? Was it South America?

[B]

That thing didn't call me.

[A]

They knew everything that works in a

[B]

lab falls apart in the real world.

[A]

They decided to fix that.

[B]

That by sending a robot somewhere no robot has ever survived. Amber just summited chimborazo in Ecuador. 6,200 meters up in a 16 hour push. The furthest point on Earth's surface from the planet's core. 97% of Earth is unreachable by robots. Am trying to change that.

[A]

What the fuck? We watch.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Like when have we got into this shit? That's a dude on YouTube talking about.

[B]

Your industries will be one the of of in my estimation which is worth nothing because I'm not an expert in this. One of the least touched.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

But it'll help people plan their trips, it'll book their airplane tickets for them, all of that stuff. But it's not going to pluck you off the side like hey man, maybe you should hold on here.

[A]

And I think there's a level of human connection that happens on a mountain where it's less about what you say and more about the presence that you, you carry with that person that, that allows them to feel safe enough to be able to do stuff that they would never normally be able to do on their own.

[B]

I agree. Bucket list stuff. What do you got left? What kind of goals you got for your by the time you're 50?

[A]

I think right now it's more just building on what I've got. Like I enjoy my life. I've got the guiding company concept expeditions. I'm actually looking at building a climbing center in my hometown in Bournemouth.

[B]

We're talking like an indoor climbing.

[A]

Yeah, indoor climbing wall. So in the process we just got some funding for that. Sweet. More just of that. Like I, I think the older I get, the more I just want to do cool stuff. Less about pushing my envelope of what's possible and more of just exploring new places. Always wanted to climb K2. Had the opportunity to climb it probably around three years ago. So I was gonna lead one of Nims's expeditions. And two weeks out I chatted to them and saw, asked what they wanted me to do with my flights and they said, oh, have you got your visa? And you've got to apply for the visa a month in advance. So that kind of saw that opportunity go. I'm potentially going to climb it next year again. It'd be a nice one to do I think just in terms of climbing 8,000 meter peak, but I think just more of what I do now. There's nothing outside of that that I want to do. Climb more, ski more, surf more, visit more countries, spend time with the people that I love.

[B]

Isn't that beautiful? To identify, to be able to identify. I couldn't do that until very recently.

[A]

Yes, I.

[B]

What I wanted to do. I knew all the stuff that I did, but I couldn't have told you why I was doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. And it's finally getting to a place for me of experiences with the people that I care about over anything else. The work that I do, the money in an account. I mean, I think we all struggle with our relationship with money. Right. And you want to look at a number in an account and there are some people who clasp onto that and they want to get the number as big as possible. But I don't think you get to take it with me. I'm going to have it in my will that they burn it in front of me, in my casket, in front of my children, just so it has to land even heavier with them.

[A]

Burn your own.

[B]

Burn their inheritance directly. They have to be physically present and they have to light the match. But I mean, there was a phase in my life where the goal was to have a bigger number and I didn't. I wasn't doing anything with it. And then I would occasionally make a stupid decision like a trinket or whatever. I mean like. And now, yeah, I want to have enough saved up so I can say no to things when I want to to maximize the yeses of the things that I want to do. But those yeses are all experiences. Man, 2027 is going to be pretty sweet. Japan, snowboarding.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

Even before no first year.

[A]

Yeah. And where are you going?

[B]

You know, Hokkaido.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Yep. We're gonna go for a seven day split board backcountry.

[A]

Wicked guide. Yes. Nice.

[B]

Yep. Through a friend's recommendation. And we go up to Bald Face Lodge. We snowboard up in Canada up there. And then, then we'll do another trip in between there and it like, I don't the baseline money level met. We're gonna, I mean my wife and I are both getting older. I'm sitting there talking with her. Oh, we got to go to Japan. We've been saying that for three years. Let's go and you know, maybe we'll go again.

[A]

Yeah. It's like, yeah, I hear you on what you say. It's like, I think there's this huge thing, isn't it? It's like, I'll tell me what you've got going on. It's like, oh, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. Yeah, doing this. But like, actually the most important thing and what brings me the most joy is just being around my mates, being around, like, friends and people that I love. It's like for me, like, I. I could be in a coffee shop in Bournemouth. I could be banging out some work somewhere or whatever. It's like that for me, brings me the most joy. Training with my mates in a gym or something like that. It's. That's like the greatest joy ever. It's like for me to then say, oh, I want to go and do this thing on my own brings me something. But it doesn't. I don't know if it brings me joy. It brings me, say, for example, I go and climb K2. It's like something I've always wanted to do. And it's. I feel it's more of like a tick in a box thing of going, oh, yeah, I did it. I've proved to myself that I can do it.

[B]

Which I think is important too.

[A]

Agree. I agree too. Yeah. To be able to still test yourself in a physical and mental realm.

[B]

My sister has a unique exposure on end of life. She was a hospital hospice nurse for many years. And I mean, the data point with her, my exposure to that is a Data point of 1. So people can't take this as gospel, but in listening to her talk, she said she never heard anybody in those last conversations talking about the things that they never got, but they would almost always talk about the time they wish they had spent with those that they cared the most about. Okay, when we all end up there, my goal is to have less of those regrets than anything else. I mean, I don't know what, what better purpose for money than that? I'm not saying be financially irresponsible people,

[A]

for the love of God.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, obviously put it all in bitcoin right now.

[A]

Amen. But it's going to go up.

[B]

I don't understand bitcoin. I don't understand crypto at all. It scares the shit.

[A]

That's why you should take all your money out of it right now.

[B]

It's like I have zero invested. I've never actually invested in any digital currency.

[A]

Yeah, I did. Not much. I mean, it's quite a bit, but I mean, a bit by my standards. I'm not. I'm not wealthy, but I. It's all tank now. I mean, it's one of those, isn't it? You take risks, you. You try different things. And I think the thing is, with bitcoin or with crypto in general, I look at it now And I just think, like, what fucking use has it got in the. In. In the world? Albeit the blockchain's got a use. Right. The banks are using it for ledger, that kind of stuff. But I can't see a world where we get rid of paying with a credit card and move to pay into a currency that's just been made that exists on a blockchain. But then the fact that there's not just one currency. Oh, I know about a thousand.

[B]

The meme coin thing is daily. The pump and dump stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Squid coin. Yeah. After squid games.

[B]

Hawk to a coin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

First off, who in their right mind thought that a hawk to a coin would be a reasonable investment to begin with?

[A]

Yeah, you're right.

[B]

I want to have empathy and feel bad for those people, but my empathy only goes so far.

[A]

Do you know anyone that invested in it? Do you know it, like, did it go anywhere or was it just like.

[B]

No, it tanked. It did what they always. They pumped it up, and then immediately I'm using terms I don't understand. They rug pulled them. It's not a big deal. What are you spending most of your time doing now?

[A]

A lot of the outdoor stuff, a lot of stuff that I've already talked about trying to get the climbing wall up and running.

[B]

Talk to me about this, what you brought in here.

[A]

You are.

[B]

This, I think, is awesome because this is an innovation in stuff that you and I both used to be pretty deeply involved in. And I wish we had this type of stuff.

[A]

Walk me through this.

[B]

Delta 3 Oscar. Yeah.

[A]

So I'm out here in America just with Delta 3 Oscar. So it's a. An arm of D3O. So D3O has been around for a long time. You might have said it in armor, in, like, downhill mountain biking, ski kit, motorcycle kit. It's orange. And they've patented or designed this material that's flexible, lightweight, and then as soon as you hit it, so if you hit it with a hammer or something, it goes rigid. And that. The beauty of that is that, for example, you know, remember when we first joined the military, all the kit was bulky. It didn't move when you moved around.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So their kit and army require less of it. So by default, it's a lot lighter in what it is, but. But it's less. Less bulk on your body. So this is the military arm for it, Delta 3 Oscar. So I just brought you a kit. You've got the helmet pads, you've got the knee pads that go in. And this is some of the Tech kit for it.

[B]

I'm so glad to see that they're evolving in this stuff. Specifically the helmet related technology, man. The TBI exposure, I mean that was a. I went to sniper school way back in 1999 and I remember, I don't know why, we were out at our desert facility just shooting Barrett 50cals. My nose was bleeding by the end of that and a helmet wouldn't have helped with that. But it. You think back to the exposure to concussive blasts, the small ones that add up over time or breaching charges, whether it's in training or for real and you're just a little bit inside of minimum safety, the charge can see you a little bit. So you can see the charge a little bit and you clack it off, off and that, you know, your helmets are rattling around and it. I'm glad to see it. I wish I would have had it. I am a huge fan of the innovation and evolution on the soldiering systems on the protective side of the house pre injury to help prevent what comes on the other side of the post injury. So.

[A]

And I think for us as soldiers or ex soldiers, we're always trying to find that technology that's lighter. Yeah. More maneuverable but offers the same level if not more protection. Right.

[B]

That's what's crazy. Some of the plates now, now.

[A]

Yeah. The superb.

[B]

Oh my God. I know like multi strike 762 at a fraction of the weight of the plates that we used to wear. First off, anybody wearing those, I hate you because I've never had any of them. And that hatred comes from extreme jealousy.

[A]

Yeah, I remember like I don't know if you guys had it or maybe you did. When I first joined and went out to Afghanistan we had like a small plate.

[B]

Chicken plate. Yeah. The low vis plate.

[A]

Literally just like that. One on the front, one on the back. Yeah.

[B]

We would wear those for low vis operations and it's. And I would remember thinking to myself, I really hope we're fighting a battalion of snipers because otherwise I don't think

[A]

this is going to do much.

[B]

We went over that thing like a 3x5 index card. I don't know what that is in metric it'd be 187cm by whatever.

[A]

Yeah, 60kg. Yeah. It's wild though. Like we went over there thinking nothing had happened. And then like six weeks into it, all hell broke loose.

[B]

Yeah, man. What do you want to close out with? We've been at it for over three hours. Thank you for making a great chat.

[A]

I Appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

[B]

How often are you in the us?

[A]

It's not been that much recently, but actually coming back, I'm going to be in Montana for this week and then heading to San Diego to Coronado for the NASCAR event. And then I'm just going to hang there for a week. But I forgot how much I liked out here.

[B]

You should move to Florida.

[A]

Really? But everyone like digs digs at Florida for being showy and handbags under the arm.

[B]

I just want you to experience Florida, man.

[A]

I've been. First time I came to the states was in Florida.

[B]

Yeah, you should move there.

[A]

It was wild.

[B]

90% of the tax. Crazy. No, it's just 90% of the crazy you see on the Internet occurs in Florida.

[A]

Comes from Florida.

[B]

So you should get in there.

[A]

I remember going out for beers and there was a big black dude, big bodybuilder with a snake around his his neck.

[B]

Florida, man. It's a feature, not a bug. That's awesome. Where can people find you?

[A]

Usual place is Instagram.

[B]

What if people are interested in doing some guiding stuff?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you can drop me a note on Instagram. Come over to the website. Conceptexpeditions.com or social media. Conceptexpeditions.com or on social media J. Morton.

[B]

Sweet. Thanks, dude. Appreciated. Hell yeah.

[A]

I'm busting for a piss. Go for it. Thank you, man. Is there a toilet?

[B]

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[A]

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