The CIA Tried to Bury It | Rachel Cuda | Ep. 451

Summary

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Episode 451: The CIA Tried to Bury It | Rachel Cuda

Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: Rachel Cuda
Date: June 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deeply revealing conversation between Andy Stumpf and Rachel Cuda, a former CIA operations officer, military contractor, and advocate for sexual assault survivors within the intelligence community. Rachel recounts her unique upbringing as the daughter of a Navy SEAL, her journey into—and experience within—the CIA, and her pivotal role in exposing mishandled and suppressed sexual misconduct cases at the Agency. The episode dives into family dynamics in special operations households, the challenges and retaliation whistleblowers face, and the legislative ramifications of Rachel’s battle for accountability. The tone is candid and at times darkly humorous, balancing resilience with hard, uncomfortable truths.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Growing Up Around the Teams

00:20-06:59

• Rachel shares her early years as the daughter of a 90s SEAL ("team guy"), surrounded by military culture in Coronado, CA.
• She reflects on the unique normalcy of that life—recounting vivid stories of her dad visiting daycare in neoprene wetsuits straight from SDV (SEAL Delivery Vehicle) missions.
• "You mean your dad didn't show up to your daycare in neoprene every day? Like, what are you talking about?" – Rachel (01:02)
• Rachel credits her mother, who became a parent at 17, for holding the family together and exposing Rachel to a strong, driven maternal role.

On Physical & Mental Discipline

06:10-07:12

• Andy and Rachel discuss the permanent impact of military discipline.
• Her father’s daily 10K runs—"No matter where we're at in the world, that's his outlet. That discipline, that dedication." – Rachel (06:11)
• Andy connects the link between physical activity and coping mechanisms for emotional health, particularly in the SOF community.

Avoiding & "Accidentally" Marrying a Team Guy

09:16-17:14

• Rachel explains her efforts not to date or marry another SEAL due to the sacrifices her mother made.
• A humorous deep dive into online dating, SEAL culture, and "ring knockers" (Naval Academy grads).
• Rachel’s Match.com story—how her (now) husband concealed his occupation, how she ultimately "got tricked," and how their backgrounds in service (her dad, his family—both military and CIA) contributed to mutual understanding.
• Notable moment: The recurring banter about short shorts (UDT shorts) and traditions in SOF.
• “I'm the one that has to keep track of his Naval Academy pillow… He’s probably got a tattoo of it on his finger.” – Andy (19:31)

The CIA Calling

31:01-48:06

• Rachel describes being recruited for CIA roles multiple times: as a student, then as a military contractor, and finally while her husband was transitioning out of the teams.
• She gives rare behind-the-scenes insight into the CIA’s application process, mentioning info sessions, the polygraph (and its psychological function more than as a pure "lie detector"), the psychological screening, and how it shapes candidate selection.
• "The polygraph is not a lie detector…They want to see how you react." – Andy (37:07)
• The different directorates in the CIA and what it means to be in "ops" (operations)—the "pointy end of the spear" responsible for asset recruitment and clandestine work.
• The impact of the war in Ukraine: Rachel's language skills (Russian/Ukrainian) put her at the center of urgent intelligence work just weeks after the 2022 invasion.
• Dynamic differences between CIA, DoD, and private sector cultures.

Internal Culture & Sex Assault in the CIA

63:33-131:49

• Rachel details a shocking incident: a male CIA colleague assaults her in a stairwell at Langley. She faces resistance, runarounds, and even thinly veiled threats instead of support or action.
• "Security was coming back to me and saying, oh, well, just let us know if it happens again…if he strangles you again." – Rachel (103:05)
• The formation of a brand-new sexual assault office at CIA—so new she’s literally told "you're our guinea pig case."
• Establishes that mishandling and cover-ups had become institutionalized—victims intimidated, forced to recount experiences repeatedly, or redirected to bureaucratic dead ends.
• Rachel highlights how agency leadership cared more about protecting the organization’s reputation than about providing justice or safety.

Systemic Agency Failures

76:00-113:02

• Detailed exploration of high-profile CIA sexual assault cases (e.g., Brian Raymond and Andrew Warren) and how the agency’s internal processes shielded serial predators for years, exposing a dangerous cultural rot.
• Discussion of how the CIA leveraged "national security" to gag, intimidate, and silo victims—"You’re undercover, he’s undercover…if you tell local law enforcement, you’re spilling secrets."
• Rachel’s attorney pushes for congressional oversight, invoking both the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) and the Senate side (SSCI), leading to unprecedented investigations and media exposure (Politico).
• “If you walk out of this office today, there are gonna be consequences, Rachel.” – CIA legal staff to Rachel (90:47)

Whistleblowing, Retaliation, and Congressional Reform

93:46-101:40

• After testifying to Congress, Rachel faces swift internal reprisal (timecard audits, threats), but the exposure leads to major investigations by HPSCI and CIA’s Inspector General.
• Within 11 months, bipartisan legislation is passed mandating reporting and transparency for sexual assaults at the CIA—a near-unheard-of pace.
• At the same time, Rachel’s experience at the Agency’s training "Farm" becomes hostile; ultimately, she’s fired ("let go") for "embarrassing the Agency."
• "Almost immediately…they started investigating my time card and I was getting all sorts of weird messages and threats." – Rachel (93:20)

The Broader System & The Path Forward

113:04-134:55

• Rachel notes the perverse practice of firing or forcing out victims and their supporters, and how attackers often "resign" only to return as contractors.
• The military’s "CATCH" system—anonymized reporting and offender tracking—shown as a potential model for federal agencies.
• She points out military evolution on this issue and the federal government’s lagging, but recognizes recent progress in both.
• “If the Agency isn’t willing to protect Americans on American soil, what are you doing?” – Rachel (117:00)

The Human Dimension: Coping, Family, and Advocacy

131:49–End

• Rachel compares the military and intelligence communities in terms of accountability, support, and culture, advocating for transferable reforms.
• Shares her own process of healing—returning to military contracting and supporting victims who reach out to her.
• Andy and Rachel find humor and perspective in lighter topics—family competitions, her husband’s retirement and passion for pickleball, and the not-so-subtle psychological warfare of gifting tactical knives.
• Practical advice for victims: Seek professional help—therapists, hotlines, attorneys—and build a support network.
• “I had this very wide-reaching, amazing support base that carried me on days when I just barely could get out of bed. But not everybody’s got that.” – Rachel (155:39)
• On advocacy: Rachel encourages victims to hold systems accountable, not remain silent, and to know: "you’re not alone… the statistics are there."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Government's always going to be there. Go try the private sector. Go do something else…The government will always be there." – Rachel, quoting her father’s advice (32:07)
• “We get into this gender war of men versus women. But the most support I had is from men—men do not like this type of behavior among their own kind.” – Rachel (138:14)
• "You have to start telling Congress about these sexual assaults… and really tell us what you’re doing about it." – Rachel, on the new legislation (100:21)
• "My first line of advice would be: get professional help… find a good therapist, find a good attorney. Those are the people you can always lean on." (154:23)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:21–06:59 – Rachel’s SEAL family background and “team kid” stories
• 11:00–16:22 – Meeting her husband, blending service family backgrounds
• 31:01–39:07 – CIA recruitment, the polygraph, and psychological screening
• 47:23–48:06 – Internals of CIA operations and language skills in Ukraine conflict
• 63:33–71:22 – Reporting assault, CIA’s internal response, and creation of the sexual assault office
• 76:00–84:06 – Exposing serial offenders within the CIA
• 88:34–91:10 – Going to Congress: the threat and immediate retaliation
• 93:20–101:40 – Hill investigations, passing legislation, and daily workplace climate/post-whistleblowing
• 100:21–101:40 – Content of the new congressional legislation
• 113:04–117:00 – Fallout, contracting loopholes for offenders
• 131:49–134:55 – Military’s "CATCH" system, reporting reform
• 154:23–155:37 – Rachel’s advice to victims: professional help and support
• 156:50–End – The importance of shared stories and reinforcement that victims are not alone

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Flow & Tone

Andy brings a mixture of irreverence and gravity, ensuring that heavy revelations are balanced by humor and honest human connection. Rachel’s tone is candid, occasionally raw, but also resilient and persistently focused on hope, reform, and the importance of community and advocacy. The episode is rich with concrete examples, practical advice, and powerful storytelling—making complex, bureaucratic problems accessible and urgent.

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Where to Find Rachel

• Instagram: @racheldakuda
• LinkedIn: Rachel Cuda

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Closing Sentiment

This episode exposes the costs of silence, the realities—and necessity—of whistleblowing, and the possibility for meaningful change when good people refuse to accept the unacceptable. It’s a must-listen (and must-read) for anyone with a stake in government, accountability, or supporting survivors of institutional abuse. The ultimate takeaway: You are not alone, and the system can be moved—one persistent voice at a time.

Transcript

[A]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north and south west of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

[B]

Oh, wait a minute.

[A]

Give it to me.

[B]

I mean it cleared hot.

[A]

Coffee cleared hot. You ready, Ms. Rachel?

[B]

Yeah, let's do this.

[A]

You know, I was thinking about this. I have a question for you that I don't know if I've ever been able to ask this to somebody on the podcast. What was it like growing up the daughter of a team guy? Because I can't, I can't really ask my own daughter that because I'm going to get the question, I'm going to get the answer from like the daughter to father answer. What was it actually like?

[B]

It was awesome, right?

[A]

I mean team guys are pretty awesome. But.

[B]

And I'll say this, like, I think people, I get this question a lot actually, what it's like to grow up around the teams, grow up with a team guy. And I didn't really understand how different my upbringing was probably until college when you start reflecting back on your childhood and then you start to realize. You mean your dad didn't show up to your daycare and neoprene every day? Like, what are you talking about? And so like I have these memories. So my dad was a 90s team guy and so he was at SDV1 when they were still in San Diego. Yeah.

[A]

And so if I was given the choice between STVs and suicide, I'm going to be honest, I'm going to be honest, I don't know which one I would choose. I can't fathom being underwater as long as they are.

[B]

Yeah, full like 12 hour days.

[A]

Those, those boys like earn the title frogman for sure. The amphibious nature of what they do in the water is just gnarly to me.

[B]

And I think people wonder like, why didn't your dad stand for a full 20? It's like if you knew what they did in STVs, like that's, that's not a dry vehicle. You are wet. Yeah, 12 hours plus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and that mission set is so different that, you know, if you're familiar with Coronado, I would go to daycare as a kid on Glorietta Bay they had like this daycare facility and the docks for the SDVs were right there. And so it wouldn't be like on

[A]

Nab Cordado you go to daycare. Yes, yes.

[B]

So like I lived on Coronado. We actually somehow got housing on Naval Air Station north island in South. Yeah, way Back in the day, in the 90s.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah. So if you know where Top Gun 2, Top Gun, most recent one, was filmed, that is Naval Air Station north island for your listeners. And so I got to spend a lot of time there. So, yeah, I went to daycare right there at Gloria Bay. And it wouldn't be uncommon for one of the counselors to wave me over. Hey, Rachel, come over here. Your dad wants to talk to you. My dad's a neoprene in the water with an STV right there, bobbing up and down. And I didn't realize how unique that was until, you know, you start talking to your friends when you're in college. Like, oh, yeah, you know, he'd say hi when he was at work. Like, he just came by.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I. You know, I credit my mom because my parents had me when they were really young. We're talking 17, 18 years old.

[A]

Yeah, that's a little. That's a little early.

[B]

Yes. And so my mom put everything into me and making sure I had activities, and, you know, she would always. You know, I was always getting into my dad's gear and doing stuff. Like, you know, I loved, like, the. The terrible makeup palettes. I'm going to call makeup palettes. You guys can call them.

[A]

It's camo paint, but let's be honest. It's makeup palettes for dudes.

[B]

Yes. Yes. I loved it. I was like, look, get me in there. And I totally. And do you have any siblings? So I have two siblings younger than me. I'm the oldest. The oldest daughter, and. But there's a big gap. There's, like, 10 years between all of us.

[A]

So I call that starting over.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

You're through the diaper phase. You're getting into the phase where, from my experience, being a parent is a lot more collaborative with the child. You can do really cool stuff. They have the capability of doing stuff, and then right back to the diapers twice. Yeah, that's a tough decision.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. No, they. They loved it. They're. I mean, and my mom. My mom made sure I was busy, and she really ran that house, you know, and so that's part of the reason, you know, as I got older, I was really not looking to marry a seal. Right. I had seen how much.

[A]

Oh, that worked out for you.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that was an entire accident, by the way. I got tricked.

[A]

There's so many ways we could go with that statement. Demonstrably false, I would say. It's. Yeah, it is. I. I don't know how to describe the differences in the community? I had a different, you know, from basically 18 years old until my mid-30s, mid to late 30s. They're different set of experiences than most people have, but they were totally normal to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember seeing guys and as they were traveling through life and I had my own kids, but watching them with their kids before I had mine, I never really thought much about, like, this must be an odd experience for those kids. But I don't think it would be odd. Like you said, until you had a social circle that was detached from that and you could. You could talk back and compare notes. Yeah, the notes are going to be starkly different.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, from me and my dad, I mean, he carries a lot of those same, you know, I don't say like, skills, but like, that mentality well after service. Right. And so one of the things that always surprises people about my dad is, I mean, he runs a 10k every single morning, six days a week. And he has done that my entire life.

[A]

Good for him.

[B]

No matter where we're at in the world. Right. He's. He's. That is. That is how he gets his energy out. That's what he does. But that is. It is like that very disciplined mentality of, you know, 5, 6am, I'm out the door, I'm doing my run. Or if, you know, if he's injured, he'll be on a bike and kind of seeing that. That discipline every single day, that dedication. Right. And I think that that goes back to the. The whole, you know, you're earning your trident every day. Right.

[A]

The physical activity part is really ingrained. The job itself is very physical in nature, and you end up. I think I can speak only for myself, but you end up having this very intrinsic tie between physical health and emotional health as well. It becomes an outlet for you to be able to work through your stuff. Was he at STVs the entire time?

[B]

No. So he was at Seal Team 1. Yep, for a good bit. And then STVS is when he was like, all right, I'm done.

[A]

Did he. Was he still there when they bumped him over to Hawaii, or did he finish with the STVS before that?

[B]

He was there when they were bumping him over to Hawaii.

[A]

Did you get to go with. No, because that would have been a pretty cool PCs move.

[B]

I think I would rather not be on an island.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well you're on a land mass. Yeah. It's not attached to anything. But yeah, yeah. Hawaii maybe. Hawaii is a good place to visit but maybe not the best to live.

[B]

You know I travel there for work, to go out to into paycom for my job nowadays and I love, you know. All right, I'll go visit. Yeah, I'm like I could not do it.

[A]

I don't know if I could do island life either.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It seems more enticing on the postcards and the TV shows.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But yeah, go in there for a little bit of time. I've been a couple times my wife and middle son learned to scuba dive. They finished their qualification. Like that was amazing. Yeah, we were there for I think 10 days for that. But also nice to come home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So yeah. So you weren't gonna marry a team guy. Told yourself you weren't going to actively avoided it.

[B]

Never had been on a date with a team guy. Just friend zone. Nice to meet you.

[A]

Cool. And then got married.

[B]

And then got married to one. Okay. And so how this went down for folks that don't quite see how I got tricked. So I was on Match back when it was.

[A]

Is that a digital thing?

[B]

Yes. Match.com so online dating.

[A]

I am proud to say, I have never been on a single digital dating site of any kind. Terrified of that.

[B]

Yes, you should be. I've heard it's only gotten worse.

[A]

I got married when I was 23 and then divorced. I'm remarried now. I, I, the reason that it terrifies me is I talk to Michael about his experiences.

[B]

Yes, you talk it to folks today. Like, is it still as bad?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, in my experience, yeah, it's not great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I am also curious though. It could be him.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know.

[B]

No, I'm sure it's not. No.

[A]

It's what I try to tell myself, but I save 2%.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

2% chance that I'm only getting one side of this story. That dumpster fire. I'm like, keep getting the same story. This is only one thing. That's not a variable here. Okay. Okay.

[B]

It was, it was great when I was in my 20s and like, this is over 10 years ago, so we're talking over a decade ago. And it was, it was fun. Right. It was a great reason to not be working 12 hour days. You know, I could cut out and say, hey, I got a date. You know, meeting up with somebody on Match, you know, go and meet somebody new.

[A]

And how often were they the person that they portrayed themselves to be? I guess that would be my fear. From what I've seen of people in the social media realm, oftentimes there's the caricature of who they are and then there's the real person. And, and oftentimes, well, I can't say always, but often there's some divergence.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there, you're gonna have those. Right. You know, and I think that's where for me, I wasn't taking it that seriously. Right. I was there to, you know, have fun, meet people. I really wasn't planning on getting married. Right. I was gonna go to D.C. and be a spy and, you know, have a great time doing that. I was just kind of casually. All right, let's, let's.

[A]

What did I do? Profile. Say rodeo cowboy.

[B]

Rodeo cowboy. Oh, for him. No, it was so vague. I was actually his first Match date, so it was very bare bones.

[A]

And what was his picture? It was some terrible, Just like UDT shorts.

[B]

See, and that's where I would have known. See, like if I could have seen the udt, like the nice, cute short shorts. Yeah. Like, I would have been like, don't

[A]

describe them that way at all. But yeah.

[B]

Hey, you gotta love some UDT shorts.

[A]

No, you don't.

[B]

They're so cute.

[A]

No, no, they're not. They are not functional in any way.

[B]

Well, if you have nice legs, they. They look great. All right.

[A]

Okay. I worked in a community of all dudes. I wasn't checking out their legs. No, that's like, why. Why are we wearing these? Yeah.

[B]

Tradition, right?

[A]

Not all traditions should be passed down.

[B]

Well, you know, I'm okay. I'm okay with EDT shorts. We can. We should honor that.

[A]

That's from. From a women's. A woman's optic. I can understand where that comes from. Yeah, from a. Well, from some dudes. Optics, even. Know, maybe they also appreciate the same thing about me, you know, Michael being in that category, obviously, but for everybody else, it's. It's. It's tough. So it didn't say team gun is bio?

[B]

No.

[A]

How far into the date until you figured that out or were you able to visually tell?

[B]

Well, so that was the thing that got me, was we started talking, you start to figure out, like, all right, this person's, you know, not a serial killer. Right. All right, I'll meet this person and this guy usually. All right, like, here's my phone number. We'll talk later. Maybe we'll go out on a date here later in the week. I'm sitting at home in my PJs, right? Hanging out on the floor, it's a weeknight. And he FaceTimes me. I'm like, oh, this is bold. Okay. Like, you immediately have my number, and we're gonna FaceTime Rachel. Okay. And so it actually took a few dates for me to figure out that he was a team guy. And this is San Diego, so we're not necessarily like the D.C. area. It's like a second, you know, what do you do for. For your work? So, you know, we were just, you know, all right, this is this blonde hair, blue eyed, you know, surfer bro that drove an electric blue Mini Cooper, mind you. Right?

[A]

Strong choice, actually.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Very, very confident.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hair's definitely out of regs.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Right. So, you know, he sits me down one night and he's like, all right, Rachel, I've got something to tell you. I think we're getting a little bit more serious. This is something that, you know, would, you know, if we keep dating, is going to impact both of our lives.

[A]

I am a serial killer.

[B]

And that's what I was thinking. It's literally, I was like, God, this guy's probably been to prison. Like, he's like, for what?

[A]

You know, what did he go for? Okay, was he applying justice somewhere where justice wasn't being served.

[B]

Exactly. There you go. And he says, you know, I'm a Navy SEAL officer. And I guess my face just said it all where I was like, no. And his face. That's not the usual reaction he was getting from.

[A]

Probably not. And so, like, I have something to tell you, too.

[B]

Jokes on you, buddy. And so.

[A]

And his face made the same reaction.

[B]

See, it's like you were there. It's like you were there. Yeah. No.

[A]

And then let me just say, I've seen this movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. It's a small community. The number of times that family members balloon back accidentally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes probably less accidentally than they would make it seem to be. But it happens.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, by then, you know, I was in it. So we had a long conversation, and I actually said, like, hey, I need two weeks to, like, kind of, like step back and figure out if this is something that I'm really willing to pursue.

[A]

What was your hesitation around it?

[B]

Because I was going to go to CIA. I was not interested. And I think it was more your.

[A]

It was more your own professional aspirations that you were worried that the relationship would get in the way.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Less than him actually being a team guy, but more just the.

[B]

Okay, yeah, absolutely. Because I think you watch a lot of military spouses, whether they're team guy spouses or not, and their career comes second.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I knew that. Right. So I had to make that. That choice and I had to really understand, like, okay, I am dating, you know, incredible naval academy grad, you know, team guy officer. Am I willing to park my own dreams and aspirations, and maybe we find a way for it to work. Maybe we do.

[A]

Interestingly enough, the career you were going to go down, the pathway of everything would have come second to that as well, too, based off the people that I have talked to that have been an interesting journey.

[B]

Exactly. And. And that was. I understood that. And for Joel, his, you know, we didn't talk about my own aspirations till much later on. Right. That wasn't something that I didn't know if I was going to make it. Right. I didn't know if I was going to get all the way across the finish line with CIA. Right. I'd been recruited a couple of times. I knew about it, but Joel's grandfather actually was a CIA case officer for 35 plus years. So.

[A]

God, what a weird merging of worlds.

[B]

Oh, it was bizarre.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's part of the reason our marriage works so well, is because, you know, he understood, you know, from being A seal. A lot of the ways, things that I was raised around and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, my dad was sitting there teaching me how to recon an area when I was, you know, eight.

[A]

Don't do that.

[B]

Yeah, no, it is. It's like, you know, all of these, like. And I mean, you're, you know, you never sit with your back to the door. Right.

[A]

I think some people take that a little too far. It's like, hey, you're at a 10. Back it off to a 6. Al Qaeda is not around every corner. I'm not saying they don't exist, but they're also not in that bush over there.

[B]

Right. But just like that general awareness of, you know, your. Your space in your body that I think a lot of kids don't.

[A]

You don't grow up with that situational awareness.

[B]

Yeah. And so for him, he understood some of those quirks. Right. That I had that, you know, other men that I had dated were like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, what? But. And then as we kind of got down the line of saying, all right. And, you know, both of his parents were military officers and his grandfather being former CIA. You know, there was then this kind of weird merging of worlds, like you said, of just like. Okay, I understand.

[A]

A lot of Venn diagram overlap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tremendous amount.

[B]

Yeah. And our whole families. And I mean, you can trace my family back to the Revolutionary War, fighting for this country. Right. Like, all the way back, both sides. And so this idea of service and this idea of doing the right thing for Americans and doing what you can to protect the country, like, that was. That was it. Right. That is kind of that. That glue and that bond that really brought Joel and I, and that's really what sustained us. Right. We both had that. That very, you know, bleeding heart type of mentality. And so that's. That was something that, you know, I was willing to take that backseat. You know, I, you know, I took that time and I said, you know what? Like, this guy's awesome. Right. You know, I really love him, and we're going to build a great life, and if CIA works out, great. If it doesn't, that's fine, too. Right. But it was an itch. Right.

[A]

How did he. How long did he spend in the teams?

[B]

He was about 10 years.

[A]

How do you like it?

[B]

He loved it.

[A]

The officer track is a different one for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At about 10 years, especially for. I won't hold the Naval Academy against him. I'll try not to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not going to sit here and honestly, Say I'm not going to, but I will try not to. I'm sure he, he just like, likes to wrap his team.

[B]

No, he's the exact.

[A]

He's driving. Does he have it on a pillow that has, it's, has lights upon it and it's at night he goes to bed and he puts it there. And that's the light. That's the constellations on the ceiling.

[B]

I'm the one that has to keep track of it.

[A]

Now that's the second one that he has built. He has another one. He's probably got a tattoo of it on his finger.

[B]

No, I'm joking.

[A]

There are some people, though.

[B]

Oh, I know the ring knockers.

[A]

It is. Why? I don't know if they know they're doing it.

[B]

I. They don't. I don't think they do.

[A]

Some of them. I think they do well for people who are listening, who are like, what in the actual are you talking about? I didn't go to the academy, so I'm talking out of my ass when I say this as far as the process. But at the end of it, you have an academy class ring, which I believe you pay for. Right?

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

And the Naval Academy is many things. One, it's an engineering school. I don't think a lot of people realize that. You can certainly get a poli sci degree there if you want to. But people are coming out of their oceanography degrees and advanced engineering degrees, which makes sense given that it's heading towards nuclear or naval type stuff and the blend of that world. And it's also a really good connection point. It's amazing. I've seen people out in vast sections of business who still have Naval Academy ties or they'll go and their cohort of peers, a bunch of them are working places together. It's just, it's a really interesting networking. Not designed as that, but they stay in touch. The ring, where it comes from and this. I have been in rooms where people will do this. They want you to know that not only are they an officer, they're an academy graduate. And again, this is not for everybody. But they'll sit there and they'll tap it off the desk and it's just like, I will actually not only take that ring, but the finger that it's on if you keep that up.

[B]

Yep, yep. And you can imagine like my dad went to Texas A and M, if you know about the corps. Cadets. Right. And I'd love for somebody to find an older Navy SEAL that went to Texas A and M. We Think he might be the first one. But they have big honking rings too, right?

[A]

I think it's a college thing for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But for whatever reason, the Academy, the

[B]

academy ones in the Navy, they get a really bad rap for this whole ring knocking thing. And I don't know, it comes from

[A]

somewhere and it comes from them knocking the ring on the desk when they want you to remember. I don't know if you know this, but I went to the Academy, kind of a big deal. And inside you just got to stone face it. And inside it's like, I know what you drive and I'd be careful touching your door handle later today.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. I hope not. So my, and that's really funny you say that because. So my sister graduated from West Point and very recently and she has one of those rings too, and we give her all sorts of hell about it.

[A]

I tell you what, West Point is another one, the military Service Academy, man, when they leave, they, they just stay. It's a powerful connection and network. I've seen it just permeate in a great way out in business and in society. But yeah, the officer track at 10 years, if you go in, he probably was an O1 or an ensign while he was in buds. So you might do like a third officer billet to begin with or an AOIC, an assistant officer in Charge. Then you're going to put on probably O2 or Lieutenant JG in the Navy. While that's happening, you're going to become an OIC after that, which will be an O3 or a lieutenant. And after that you might be a task unit commander or operations officer, but you are going to be flying a table at about the 10 year mark.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's a tough stretch for them and their operational career is starting to look a little bit more on the horizon. Whereas on the enlisted track, if you want to, I mean, man, you can get after it for 20, 30 years.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[A]

Different path.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I, I think you see a lot of guys that are, they have college degrees.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They could technically become officers, I would say. In the SEAL community, you see so many college grads go enlisted because of that.

[A]

Special Operations in general actually has the highest level or highest numbers of non commissioned individuals with, I, I don't want to say advanced degrees, but at least a bachelor, which I don't know if that's considered an advanced degree. I have zero seconds of college, so. Yeah, I have no idea.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not one to ask on that either.

[A]

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. It's. People think it is more about the physicality of the job, which. That does exist. Some of the smartest people I ever worked with. It's. It's more about the muscle between your ears than everything beneath that, in my opinion, at least, it's problem solving.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's. That's exactly how I ended up being recruited by CIA, so I want to get to that.

[A]

When your husband got it, was it his choice to get out? Because 10 years is kind of the shit or get off the pot.

[B]

Yeah. He actually had a series of really bad accidents and ended up going through ITZ at Walter Reed. So he had a pretty bad free fall accident.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

His chute folded.

[A]

Like, landing.

[B]

Yeah. On landing. So he came in.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I was there. Just like a training.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Came in, and you saw a heavy gust, and it, like, kind of came in, and then you saw it fold, and he went right through the trees about 50ft.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I know what you're talking about. And there's not a whole lot you can do. He basically encountered some unstable air or a dust devil too low to the ground where the canopy can't correct itself. So you had a accordion in sometimes or fold over. Yeah, well, at that altitude, if you haven't. If you had a few hundred feet underneath you, it gets a little bit of a wild ride, and then it'll snap back out. But if you don't have that.

[B]

Didn't have it about 50ft.

[A]

Gravity. I have tested this now on every continent. It works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everywhere.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And that was one. He had had a couple of bilateral hip surgeries before that. And. Yeah. This guy. I mean, he. He ran his body into the ground.

[A]

How's he doing now?

[B]

Now? I mean, he's good. Like, if you were to look at him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He looks like, you know, active duty.

[A]

Is he physically able to do the things he wants to? No. Let's see. That's what sucks, because you can look at somebody and say, oh, you look like you're doing just fine, and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't have any idea the internal limitations and restraints you have to place on yourself.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's not because you don't want to do stuff. It's because you can't or, you know, the consequence of doing it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I was at Walter Reed very recently, and we had an anesthesiologist. I was getting a small surgery, and he came up to my husband and was like, you look like you'd still be in and she was like, yeah,

[A]

throw my shoes on, buddy. Go for a walk around the track. Let me know if you're still going to say that.

[B]

Not with a kid on, bro. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so. And I think so for that, you know, after that particular accident, that was, that was it. Right. And so. And he was having some mental health issues too, so we, we ended up at Walter Reed where he went through ideas and ended up being medically retired.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Not where you, you see your. Your life going or, you know, but

[A]

sometimes, though, with enough time in the rear view mirror, you end up having those moments being the best things that have ever happened to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've. I look back now at some of the things in the moment where I would say they probably were the worst thing that ever happened. I'm pretty grateful for him now, really. But getting shot overseas. Not. Not. I'm gonna go 10 out of 10. Don't recommend.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not advocating for that. But until that happened to me, I had never once for a second considered what I was gonna do when I got out, because all I had ever wanted to do since growing up. And you've. You've heard this story so many times. If you've been around the community ever since I can remember being a kid, I wanted to be a seal. And I don't know why every. Almost everybody I served with said that. And it's such an uncommon narrative outside of the community, but it is so common inside. So what does that look like as a kid? You don't pay attention in school and you don't really try. It's not that you don't have the aptitude, it's that you don't care. I didn't take my SATs. I didn't do anything other. I played sports. I was good enough to make the team. Not the all star team, to be very clear. So I was on the team, on the bench most of the time, and all I could think about was joining the Navy. So my peers are studying for finals and all this stuff that you have to do to apply to colleges. Totally skipped that. Went to the Navy recruiter's office when I was 17. Parents signed the paperwork with me through the delayed entry program, which, looking back now, is just a way for a recruiter to check a box for that month because you still have to graduate high school. You still have to be 18. So, yeah, did all that stuff, you know, boot camp, a school straight to buds start my career. All that whole time, I'm just like, I Want to get in the teams. I want to get in the teams. I want to get in the teams. Then you get in the teams. I want to be in the teams. I want to be in the teams. Well, this is so awesome. This is all I want to do. 911 kicks off okay. This is more than I ever thought it could be. I am doing everything that I thought I could potentially want to do, and I want to do this forever. And I never. I had never once thought about what I was going to do. And then I'm in a hospital room for a couple of days until I started getting medevac home and then rehabbing myself for about 18 months. I had never thought about what would be next. And I look back now it's because I started at least considering what life would look like on the outside and spending the time to sit with the realization that even if I can get better, this is going to end at some point in time. So I better be real cautious attaching my entire identity to this job because it's going on the shelf at some point. The uniform is metaphorically and physically going into the closet at some point. And it will gather dust. And it helped me. Well, we wouldn't be sitting here today. I started looking for and finding opportunities while I was still in that. In hindsight, I didn't realize they were gonna help me the way that they did. But in hindsight have led me to many of the things that I have done in my life post military. And it would have been so easy to ignore everything to the exclusion of the job and not pay attention to those things. And then I would have been. I would say my words, not necessarily anybody else's. I would have been behind the eight ball or power curve when it came getting out. Yeah, but I certainly, again, 10 out of 10. Don't recommend.

[B]

No, but I. Yeah, please don't.

[A]

Yeah, don't recommend me. Give you guys the. You can learn this one through me. Not awesome.

[B]

Let's not try that one.

[A]

It's exactly as. As shitty as you think it would be. But it was one of the more formative things that ever happened to me, and it changed the trajectory of my life because I had to change the way I thought about my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Didn't realize that for years. Years. So.

[B]

Yeah. No. And I think, especially with team guys, I mean, it. It becomes your whole life. Right. It is.

[A]

It doesn't have to be, but if you let it. And the teams is really good at helping you and facilitating that headspace.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

We can't do this job without you. What do you mean? You're thinking about doing something else. You don't care about the team. And the reality is this, the second that you're gone, another heartbeat will be found. It will go into your role, and the community will be just fine. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's that, too.

[B]

There is that. Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's a lot of military. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Recruited by the CIA. What does this look like?

[B]

It looks a couple of different ways. So, for me, initially, it was college, right. Approached by a professor.

[A]

Not to interrupt you, no. But I've talked to a few people now, and actually, Mike Baker was telling me this. An ex agency guy. They used to be sneaky about this, and now the professors are like, hey, I'm just a CIA liaison. Yeah, it's basically right on the nose where I thought it would be. Well, this is probably from watching the movie the Recruit, which I watch as a documentary, where you're circling different words on a crossword puzzle and you just slide it over to somebody and they figure it out. No, they're like, hey, I'm with the CIA and we think you might be a good fit.

[B]

Yep, that's. And so I. You know, I had always had that in my head in some ways. You know, after my dad got out of the teams, he was recruited by CIA to do paramilitary operations multiple times. Right. Turned him down. And for my dad, you know, growing up, I wanted to be an acl. I don't know any difference. Dad goes to work. Dad. Dad goes and does that. And instead of telling me, oh, no, you can't, for all of these reasons, instead he went, well, why don't you. You know, you're really good at languages. You're really smart, Rachel. Why don't you look at this, like, agency thing? Right? I've got a lot of women that you can look at and. And be inspired by. Right. And so when the time came in college, I was like, okay, I'm interested. So I went to an info session that they had there, and I went to the University of Tennessee as my undergrad. So we're not talking, you know, the Harvards and Yales. So it was.

[A]

Which they do recruit there, I'm assuming, as well, too, Right.

[B]

They recruited every major university, Right. And so. But I, you know, here they show up, this info session, and there's only a few of us in the room. There's not many. And they're talking about, like, we do such cool things. You know, we. We drive boats. Really? Fast. And, you know, for me, it had always been part of the family conversation of not, like, if you're going to serve, but, like, how. And I remember talking to my dad about it and being like, I don't know, like, I think this is the fit. And he goes, government's always going to be there. Go try the private sector. Go do something else, you know, see if you like the private sector first. The government will always be there. And so that's what I did, right? I went to a startup. I was a developer for a while, highly technical job, and just kind of had that, like, just nagging, like, I really want to get into some sort of government service. And so that's when I dipped my toe into military contracting. And so that's when you start to kind of, all right, is this the culture, the area that I want to be around? And a lot of it. For me, one of the things that I didn't really understand till much later was the intelligence communities and the Department of Defense, Department of War, the military, they have very distinct cultures. They're very different. And so for me, though, it was trying to figure out, do I want to do this whole intelligence community thing a few years later, Again, university type approach. You want to do this, Rachel? I don't know. You know, and then while Joel's in the teams, right, he's on deployment, and we're looking at, you know, Joel's next duty station. Looks like it's going to be east coast, right? I'm looking up, how long does it take to. To get from Virginia beach to D.C. about six hours. Yeah, too long. But could we make this work? And I get another approach? And it's like, all right. And so that time I actually went through the full, you know, recruitment, hey, all the way up until the poly. And then when Joel got back, it was, hey, we're actually going to send you guys. We're going to piece you guys overseas to a unit. And so called up CIA. I said, hey, guys, sorry. This time, you know, we're. I'm going overseas with my husband. And so when Joel ended up at Walter Reed, he's getting out, right? That career's winding down. And we had this conversation. It was very sweet. And I think it's just, you know how sweet my husband is for a seal. He's like, hey, I think this is your time to serve. Like, do you. What do you want to do? Right? You've been, you know, picking up all these other jobs, and, you know, you've been doing the military contracting Thing for a long time, which I know you love, but you want to go for it. And it's like, yeah, like, let's do it. And so that's, you know, through a series of. Whether you're applying online, whether, you know, for me, I. I just graduated from Georgetown for a master's. All right. Like, I'll show up to another CIA info session. And then I was gonna say, do

[A]

you have to restart the process all over again? You can't pick it up where you left off. How many people do you think failed at polygraph?

[B]

They do violate. I have no idea what the pass rate is on the poly. I know.

[A]

Interesting, because, I mean, there's two different. There's a couple types of polygraphs. You know, there's like a national security one where it's like, hey, have you. You know, are you a asset for foreign nation? Then there's a lifestyle poly. Right. And those two are very different. Sometimes they're combined, and some programs to be read into are not a lifestyle poly. And some of them are, from what I have heard from the guys who have taken them, they never let you through clean. They always go back, and they want to go back and.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Talk to you about this, that, or the other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I wonder if that's more just. They want to see how you react.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Right. So, yeah, what you're referring to is a CI poly or the full scope poly. Right, The CI poly. They're going to have you in there for a few hours. Are you spying for the Russians? No. Okay, cool. The full scope poly is this lifestyle where they want to pick and prod and they want to, you know, see if they can get you to. You know, they're basically.

[A]

I mean, it's something honestly, not to associate the CIA with Scientology, but stay with me here. It's like they're E meters. They're. Look, the. A polygraph is not a lie detector. No. There's a reason they're not admissible in court. It's. It physiologically tells you whether or not you have a response to the question being asked. So much like, in the Scientology world, which, let me tell you right now, I've watched far too many documentaries. I haven't worked my way up the bridge to total freedom yet, though I'm not clear.

[B]

This is really random.

[A]

One of the main things they do in Scientology is they do auditing. And so they. You hold on to, like, metal cans. It's. It's two thirds of a lie detector test. And so the. The cans Is measure. Measuring an electronic charge inside of your body, and it goes back to a reader. And they set up. Michael, can you pull up a Scientology e meter? And they set up a little visual thing where you can't see the results. And somebody. Depending on how you view it, it could be a conversation or it could be a light interrogation, because they're all they're looking for. Yeah. So you're holding on to those cans. It's two thirds of a polygraph machine, and there's no heart rate associated with this. I don't think you have the strap around your chest.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's. They're just watching the needle. And again, I've watched far too many hours of documentaries, but people describe it in a variety of ways. The most freeing counseling session ever. Because what they do is, once they see the needle, they basically hammer down on that subject until you work your way through it, and then the needle settles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or the other end. And the people. I come out of this, and I've never felt better in my life. Or the other side of that. People come out of it. Like, I think I was just interrogated for hours. Yeah, you can do that with a polygraph if you want.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

I'm not so sure. Is it. I don't think anybody gets out of it clean. I think that they use it as a tool to get some insight into who you are and how you operate.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. They're trying to figure out what makes you tick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And so you go. You do it. All right. You got to come back the next day. All right, here I come. All right. What next? Yeah, Right. And so I think. Yeah, there. There are a lot. I. I mean, I've met several people within the military community that have failed those, and you're exactly right. I think they're just looking at, like, all right, are they. What's the response time here? What. What makes people sweat? And so.

[A]

Or why did you have a reaction to that? Let's ask a few more amplifying questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, some of them, like, have you ever stolen anything from work? I'm like, yeah. Yeah. And they say, like what? Like, I have a collection of lithium batteries that would shock you. Sorry. You know, not state secrets. I got a lot of pencils and notebooks.

[B]

That's the thing. Like, going into those. Like, at the end of the day, you really got to just understand they. They want to know if you're going to be willing to steal secrets.

[A]

It'll hang people up, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. When I did my psychological test to go out to the east coast command. Hundreds of questions. This bubble test, I'm sure you've taken it. You know, is the pole vault your favorite televised sporting event? Strongly agree, agree, neutral.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Disagree, strongly disagree. Like, where's the. No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He sit down with the shrink. Literally, the first question he asked me goes, when was the last time you broke the law? And I said, oh, definitely today.

[B]

No, what have you done?

[A]

I sped.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

And that's what I said. I'm like, I definitely was speeding on the way to work today. He start laughing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he said, the number of people that will sit in that chair and argue that they've never lied, not like today, but ever, he said, would shock you. And I said to my, how's that possible? Everybody speeds. Everybody jaywalks. And he said, yeah, I know. And so does everybody else. But when the person sits there in that chair and they won't admit to that, is that a damning thing for them? No. Does that give you insight into who they are? 100%.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He just started laughing as soon as. Instantly, I was like, oh, yeah, for sure. Definitely, definitely today.

[B]

Yes, I have broken the law today.

[A]

What? You didn't speed? He goes, I did. For sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, next. And the way I answer that, I don't know how many times they were asked that in a different way to other people. It was one question. We laughed about it and then moved on and started. Then he's like, hey, have you ever taken one of these tests? This is what it is. This. Da, da, da, da. This is what it shows. I'm like, okay, yeah, whatever.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, no, I. I mean, I remember sitting down with CIA psych. Same. Same kind of deal. All right.

[A]

How crazy am I, doc? Yeah, like one to ten. Am I. Am I doing good?

[B]

No. And. And I think it's, you know, and it's CIA psych stuff is always, you know, you take it with a grain of salt because it's like, okay, thank you. I've taken hours of these psych tests now. And you're telling me what, that I'm an introvert or an extrovert or I'm sitting flat in the middle. All right, cool. Thanks.

[A]

It's like painting with a broom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Semi accurate, depending on the person, but for everybody, also semi inaccurate.

[B]

Yeah. And I think what I saw, at least during my time at CIA was, you know, it was almost a year that I was in the CIA before they say, hey, we'll go even further into your psych results. And I was like, dude, I'm pretty sure I've changed, right? Like, I know that you guys think there are some immovable forces here in terms of psychology, but I can tell you those results that you have that are now, like, three years old. I've gone through enough trauma in the last, like, year that I can tell you those results are not the person I am right now. So thanks, you know, I'm good.

[A]

So you go through the psych. When do you officially. What is. How do you know it's officially your first day? Do they give you a badge or how does it work?

[B]

So mine was kind of hilarious. I was actually at the Pentagon, and prior to CIA, I was working as the. I was working on the COVID task force. I was leading the data modeling and analytics line. So if you read anything about COVID numbers, about our military force during the pandemic, my team put that out. So I was there, and I got this call, and I'm like, oh, I think I know what number this is, right? Like, this is the call, right? Whether I find out, whether they tell me to go pound sand or I'm in. And so I get into the courtyard, because that's the only place in the Pentagon that you can get really reliable cell service. And. And they're being all squirrely, and it's like, look, like, am I in? Like, what's going on here? And she goes, can you start and, you know, February 14, Valentine's Day? And I was like, oh, this is. This is perfect. Yes. I heart CIA. Let's start on Valentine's Day.

[A]

What does that mean? Start your training or you just become an employee, Like a badged employee.

[B]

Badged employee.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, this is the day that they call it, like, duty on entry or something that effect. So that was my day of entry to CIA. And. And you show up and, you know, you. They start just like, kind of any sort of HR processes. You know, you go and you get your badge, you get photographed, you go in, and you have about, like, a week or two of orientation classes. Like, hey, you can go here. Hey, you know, this is kind of what your job's going to be like. This is what we expect of you, and this is how cool the job is. Right.

[A]

What job had you been picked up for?

[B]

So I was an ops, operations.

[A]

What does that mean, though?

[B]

So within CIA, there a few different directorates, you know, you've got the directorate of science and technology, right. And they do a lot of, you know, the cool Q. Yes. Very Q. Ish.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, also James Bond, obviously. Many documentaries. Everyone they put out as a documentary.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[A]

But, you know, as an analogy for people, the S and T is the guys who have the cool shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Make the cool stuff.

[B]

They make the really cool stuff.

[A]

I'm not saying it's exactly like that. I'm saying in concept, you can connect the two.

[B]

Right, exactly. You have a directorate of support. You know, you have the folks behind the scenes that are coordinating, hey, like, we need this flight and we need to, you know, grab this much money. And then you have operations. And operations is, you know, that. That pointy end of the spear. They're the people that are on the ground recruiting assets. Right. They're the ones that are going out and. And looking for people.

[A]

So, like, we were talking about off air, about John Kiriakou. His job, essentially.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, yeah, not his job, but he was in. He would have been in the same career track.

[B]

Right, okay. Yeah. And I think he moved over into ops.

[A]

He was first.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, that's another directorate of analysis. Right. So for me, I. And I went to ops. Right. That's. That's what I wanted to do.

[A]

Did you have any say in that?

[B]

So with CIA, I applied to a few different directorates just because of my technical background. But through CIA, they're very public about if you get picked up for ops, ops gets first dibs on you.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So once you get further on down in, you know, when you're going through your interviews and some of these other ways in which they recruit you, they'll at some point ask you, like, okay, within ops or. Right. What are the different types of roles that you're interested in? And they'll have you rank and then they'll tell you.

[A]

Supposed to know even what's available, though.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

I mean, it'd be great if you could say, hey, I want to do this exact or specific job. But how are you supposed to know what jobs are available? I mean, they're a relatively secretive organization.

[B]

Well, they'll pebble size some of this. Right, so like a targeting officer. Okay, Right.

[A]

So they'll give you the broad brush strokes.

[B]

Yeah, they'll give you. Yeah, because even within operations, you know, you've got the person like, sits down and talks with the actual asset. Right. You've got people that are working on targeting packages which is trying to, you know, pull together all of the information that an operations officer might need to know to go after it. So there's There are a few little subsections that you can kind of rank.

[A]

And I was gonna say, outside of that, it'd be like ordering ice cream blindfolded.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, hey, what do you want? Like, I don't know that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, and I was fortunate, too, that I had a pretty good idea because of Joel's grandfather, that. That, you know, and he had worked as a case officer. He was also meeting with assets of what that. That looked like. And so I was like, all right, that's what I want to do. And they're like, all right, that's the one you get. All right, let's go. So, yeah, so you get. You put into that. That training pipeline, and similar to what. What John talked about, Right. You're. You're. You're working ops day one. It's on the job training, so.

[A]

Seems a little bit dangerous, but, yeah,

[B]

I mean, they try.

[A]

I'm sure you have oversight, but still, I hope. Okay, let me rephrase that. I hope you have oversight. Well, I mean, if you threw a team guy into the mix on their first day, even after they had gone through buds and what I believe they still now call sqt, which is the additional training where you earn your Trident. You are underwater. Book knowledge. Sure. A little bit. Street smarts. Zero.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I think that's the difference with CIA is you're dealing with humans. Right. You're dealing with people. Right.

[A]

I mean, you are in the teams too.

[B]

Yeah. You got a lot of equipment to worry about, though. A lot of deadly equipment. I would say that's. That's kind of the difference there.

[A]

You guys got some cool stuff.

[B]

Yeah, we do have some cool stuff.

[A]

I know the S T is pretty sweet.

[B]

I love dsnt. Yeah, they're great people. They've got some really cool stuff.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I can say a lot of wonderful things about dsnt. They've. They supported me and helped me and mentored me throughout my time at CIA and in immeasurable ways. Okay.

[A]

So they throw you right into it. How. How are you supposed to start working on the job but also go through a training pipeline at the same time?

[B]

So a bit of this was my own experience, was a little bit unique because I joined February 14, 2022. I speak Russian, Ukrainian, and German.

[A]

Who doesn't?

[B]

I mean, two weeks later, the Ukrainian war starts.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you have a skill set that's going to swing you off in that direction.

[B]

Yeah. And so that kind of corralled me into a different aspect of the CIA that was, you know, very. You know, we're at war, right? Like, that's it. And that's what I had been so excited to join the CIA for. Right. Like, I was there. I mean, I thought I was going to spend the rest of my career going after Russians. Right. Like, how much can I, you know, harass and kill Russians for the rest of my career? Right? That was, that was. That was the part. What do you mean?

[A]

That's pretty mean.

[B]

Yeah, well, they've done a lot of shitty stuff, so.

[A]

We've been doing shitty stuff to each other for decades.

[B]

Yes, we have.

[A]

Yeah. We don't have the cleanest hands in that either. I'm not here to pick sides, even though it's very clear which side I'm on. But, yeah, it's. We lob things back and forth.

[B]

We do. I think for me, you know, I'd always. I'd always had that very specific knowledge set, though. You know, I, you know, learning Russian, learning Ukrainian.

[A]

Are they pretty close?

[B]

No, not as close as people want or think. Actually, Ukrainian is much more like Polish interesting than it is than Russian. So. And. And there are different dialects, especially when you look at the landmass of Ukraine. Right. You get more Eastern. It's. It's much more heavy in the. In the Russian type of dialects. Right. You'll see some. Some. Some endings and some case endings that'll start to change. And then in. In Western Ukraine, you're going to see a lot of what I would call very much more pure Russian. So. And there's a. You'll hear about. It's called szuk. And what that means is there's some specific dialects where you'll kind of see throughout Ukraine that you'll see change endings. You'll see different words being different things.

[A]

So, I mean, this is. It's true of. In the US as well, too, as you navigate around. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's like. It's a very full language. I don't think a lot of people understand.

[A]

It's very culturally influenced, too. So, like, yes. Pockets in the US where the culture, again, Hamad, we're, you know, just huge melting pot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And as you travel around the US Kind of using the same words, sounds like. I totally get what you're saying.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I think people think there's like this very clear demarcation between Russian and Ukrainian, and it's not like that at all. Right. There's a lot of. Of blending with Polish. And I think, you know, Ukraine is so. Has tried. So Hard to ensure that folks understand, like, this is a distinct culture and heritage. And the way that Russia has come in and tried to, you know, Russify a lot of their own culture, try to really sweep that into their own narrative, has been criminal.

[A]

Are you surprised the conflict has gone on as long as it has. No. How do you think it'll end if you were betting women?

[B]

Well, there's how I think it'll end and then how I hope it'll end.

[A]

Both.

[B]

All right, well, for me, where I hope it ends, I want Russia to get all their territory back, and I want them to have Crimea. They need to have Crimea back.

[A]

You're talking about Ukraine.

[B]

Yes, Ukraine. Yes. And I. That is, like, the ideal state for me. Like, that is a sovereign nation, and Crimea is Ukraine. Right. And I would love to see, you know, the Kirch Strait bridge absolutely demolished. So that is my hope. That is my dream. That is my dream for every Ukrainian. How do I think it'll end? I don't. I think that we're going to end up in this frozen conflict. Right. Because that is what is strategically most advantageous for Russia and Putin is to freeze Ukraine in this conflict for as long as possible to keep them from either joining NATO, from keeping them away from the eu, trying to constantly cause a lot of that turmoil in that part of the country and of the world.

[A]

Does Russia have the assets to sustain that? I mean, that's a draw on their economy, on their military. I mean, it's the advancements in drone warfare, some of that stuff. You know, hiding the drones and trucks and the drivers didn't even know that they were in there. And literally hitting strategic assets of the Russian Air force.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you only got so many of those bombers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, do you think Russian can sustain it? Yeah, I mean, they have more numbers, obviously.

[B]

I think Russia has a lot more help than we give folks credit for. Right. China's helping them.

[A]

Oh, for sure. So North Korea is helping them.

[B]

North Korea is helping them.

[A]

I love that the North Koreans got access to the Internet and immediately became addicted to porn. Internet, yeah.

[B]

Well. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. We won't go down that rabbit hole.

[A]

But it's. I mean, I can't say every report that I've seen is accurate, but I've seen a bunch talking about that.

[B]

I think that. I mean, Russia's really worked far too hard to really let this one go. So I think they're gonna just continue to, you know, be willing to massacre their own people in order to get as much of Ukraine as they can.

[A]

That's rough. So you can see it going five more years, ten more years.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Unless something happens to where, you know, we get even more involved or Europe gets even more involved. Because I think one of the things that was so frustrating at the beginning of that conflict is we would only give Ukraine just enough help for them not to lose. Right. That was absolutely heartbreaking for me. You know, sitting there at CIA was like, why aren't we giving them patriots? Seriously. We were giving them just enough not to lose because we were so afraid that Russia was going to drop a nuclear weapon. Right.

[A]

What do you think the likelihood of that actually is?

[B]

It's so much less than what I think people thought. I mean, and.

[A]

And I only ask because you hear it modern day. And again, I don't know if the volume of people saying this lends anything towards the accuracy, but one of the common narratives about the war in Iran is that Netanyahu basically came to Trump and said, either you guys get involved or we're going to nuke them. I don't. I wonder. And again, you know, some people are irrational and there are crazy people who are in power, but if any nation lets a nuke off the chain.

[B]

Yeah. You've lost all friends.

[A]

And you'd have to know that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you let more than one off, then the theory of mutually assured destruction starts kicking in and then the world comes to an end.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I would like to believe that somewhere, even in the most crazy dictator psychotic headspace, that there is 1%. Hey, if you want to have all this stuff and still be the guy, you have to exist to do that. So maybe nukes aren't the best option.

[B]

Right, right. Yeah. And that's part of the problem we even see with Ukraine. Right. Ukraine gave up all of their nukes, all of their nuclear capabilities in order to achieve that peace. Right. They gave that up. Right. Would we be there? Would we be where we are today with Ukraine being at war if they hadn't done that?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Something I'm very passionate about. Something that, you know, it was really hard for the decisions that I made with ncia because I was so passionate about that, that conflict.

[A]

I mean, the other side of that argument is we can't fight everybody else's wars for them.

[B]

And that's fair. That is totally fair.

[A]

It's like, hey, Europe and most of the other countries and NATO, if not all of them, maybe you live up to the GDP spending that you're supposed to have for your involvement in NATO. And oh, by the way, this is also literally in your backyard. So step up. You know, it's. Yeah, it's gnarly dirty. And then there's Iran. You know, Trump is bitching that NATO allies didn't come help. And if you look at Article 5, it's like, hey, man, this is a defensive article, not an offensive article. They're under no obligation to do so. You can have a conversation about whether or not they should, but you could also have a conversation about whether or not you should have conferred with your allies before taking the actions that you did. I'm not a strategic expert by any stretch, but these are the things I think about when I can't sleep, and then I can't sleep because I'm thinking about them. It's pretty great.

[B]

Well, the things we can control, right?

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, these type of things, they constantly ground me and how little I know. I don't try to be an expert about any of this stuff. I have more questions than I have answers when it comes to this stuff. And it shocks me, the number of people who I think have about as much information and experience as I do in this, but they'll tell you they're an expert in it. And I get real worried. Especially when they have large platforms. Get real, real worried.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, all right, so back to the CIA. You're basically lateraling over to Ukraine. Was it when you started working there? Was it what you thought it was going to be?

[B]

Yes and no. I will say that I think the media builds up CIA to a point where it was a little underwhelming.

[A]

It's true. The SEAL teams too, for clarity.

[B]

Yeah. Like, and I think that's when you're. When you're at your dream job finally. Right. It's a little underwhelming, but at the same rate, like, I was there to get the job done. I was excited. Right.

[A]

It just started though, too. So you could have built into something else.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And I think you know the types of people I was meeting. Right. Like, you're excited. Right. You're gonna. It's like most jobs this first six months, you see things, everything with rose colored doulasses.

[A]

Yeah. Michael's going to the bathroom. We can keep going. He sets the cameras up for it when we're gone. Okay. Is there an official training pipeline for the operations directorate?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, or can. Or are there people who come into it and if you have a skill set like a language like that that you bypass it and like you said, it's really ojt, like on the job.

[B]

There's a few. There's a. I'll say this, I think the standard is that you go through the Farm. Right. Farm is pretty much, you know, your directorate of operations, like, okay, we're going to certify you, you're good to go. You know, be gone with you and go do great things. But other than that, especially, you know, when there are backups in the Farm training or if you're also one of those people that has a lot of access but not necessarily is a like full time badged employee. Right. Of CIA. There are other ways in which, you know, we'll go out and train you.

[A]

Right. They can achieve the end state.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And so, and those are, those are folks that, you know, you want to do everything you can to protect their cover, protect the fact that they are, you know, trying to steal secrets by, you know, interacting with foreign adversaries. So you're not going to put them through a traditional pipeline, but they are considered part of the directorate of operations.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, those are. That's the action arm of what it is you guys are trying to accomplish, I'd imagine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how long did you end up staying with the agency?

[B]

So I was there for a little over two years. Yeah.

[A]

How was your departure?

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

How so?

[B]

So for me, so I was actually fired.

[A]

So about when you're there, are you a GS?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Had you served for a GS for over a year?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which is an interesting point because it gets very difficult to get rid of GS employees after 365 days.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. That's an aside, but we'll come back to that later, I'm sure.

[B]

Yeah. So for me, I knew that the CIA had been trying to find fire me for well over a year. I had embarrassed them. Right. So they were looking to take their pound of flesh. And certainly after, you know, my attacker was convicted, certainly after I went to Congress and then I officially testified for Congress and then, you know, just a few, you know, months later, then we ended up passing legislation, you know, a month later, they fired me after the legislation. And it was about, actually it was about two weeks after I'd gone to the inspector General and said, hey, here are all the ways that they're trying to fire me. Here's all the retaliation. About two weeks later, then they just, you're fired. Get out of here.

[A]

How do they actually do that? They pull you into an office?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They called me on my cell and Basically said, hey, we need you to come in to see security. And I was like, what's this about? And they wouldn't tell me just stuff here. Yeah, just stuff. They wouldn't tell me stuff and things.

[A]

Just come on in.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And I was like, when you have to talk to your kids about something important, like, hey, can you just come home? How come, dad? Stuff and things.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, I emailed my attorneys right before then. I was like, hey, this is today. They're, they're, they're gonna fire me. And so he was like, all right, we knew this was coming.

[A]

Yeah, so you broadly skipped over quite a bit there. Let's go back, let's go back and fertilize a little bit of that terrain. What happened?

[B]

Yeah, so about six months into my time at CIA, I had a guy that, you know, another mid career hire, you know, also had had a career Navy reservist, Another former military contractor. He came up behind me in a stairwell at CIA headquarters and strangled me or tried to. Not something that I'd ever had happen to me at work. And so for me, I mean, I had just flatly, I've never had anything like that happen to me ever. And so this kind of, this sets off this chain of events that, you know, for me, the first thing was, okay, this happened at a stairwell at CIA headquarters during the day. Are there, are there cameras there?

[A]

Are there?

[B]

That was the big question, right? So I, you know, I ask, you know, someone that I had been working, you know, Russia, Ukraine, problems with day in, day out, great guy. And I text him, you know, after I had left the building for the day and, and said, hey, are there, are there cameras in the stairwells? And he was like, what the. And so he called me and I, you know, very clinically go through, like, this is what happened. And he's like, are you kidding me? Like, what? He's like, no, you need to report this. Like, what in the hell is going on? And I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't know about this. Right. And then really over the next. So the next day I'm trying to figure out, like, how do I report this? Are there cameras? Right. I'm asking and nobody really can give me a straight answer. And I am. My body starts like having all these weird reactions, right? Like, you can even tell right now, like, I'm somewhat shaky.

[A]

It's just, it's stress.

[B]

Yeah. And I had never had a situation where I'm literally walking in a building and I'm Just, like, pouring with sweat. And I couldn't control any of it. And I would just start crying at my. And so it was just so bizarre. And people noticed, Right. My own supervisor was like, hey, what's going on with Rachel? Like, and at that point, again, it's like, are there cameras? Are there cameras? Are there cameras? And it's like, okay, well, here's the number for psych, right? Here's the actual chief medical officer for CIA. My supervisor at the time actually knew her. And so I called her and I laid out like, hey, something's going on. I don't know if I want to report it. Like, this is. I don't really understand the processes for this.

[A]

Why would you not want to report it?

[B]

Well, I wanted to understand what the reporting process was like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So I think, for me, you know, you see a lot of these types of behaviors and happen at work, and it just never goes well. It. You just don't see it often going well. Hold on, let me back up real quick.

[A]

It depends on what the behavior is.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, you're talking about an assault. I've never seen that go well for an attacker.

[B]

Right? That's the assumption.

[A]

Yeah, but. Well, it's what. It's what you would want to be.

[B]

Right? Exactly. And I think that's, for me, was, you know, when I was talking through it with the medical officer, she was like, well, I don't know if they have cameras in the stairwell, but security will. So go down there and tell them and talk to them about that. So I went down there and I was like, hey, are there cameras? And, like, what happened? And so I kind of, you know, I gave them, like, this very clinical, like, you know, this step and this step and this step, and they're like, oh, we don't know if there are cameras in the stairwell. We'll get back to you. Like, okay, well, all right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think for a federal government and for CIA, I just. I assumed that, you know, this kind of stuff is going to get taken care of, Right. They're going to. They're going to figure it out. They're going to pull up cameras, they're going to see what happened, and then they're going to tell me what it is and. And tell me how to deal with it. Right. They're gonna take care of the situation.

[A]

Well, even if it didn't, if there weren't cameras, I mean, it still happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Were you still gonna report it even outside of the cameras, or were you still toiling with that, like, we actually haven't gotten to the point. Were there cameras?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. Unfortunately, doesn't change what happened.

[B]

It doesn't.

[A]

Yeah. But I think it becomes a he said, she said.

[B]

And that is any victim's worst nightmare.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, I can imagine.

[B]

But this is what's interesting about my case. So, you know, I didn't even know it was considered sexual assault right. At the time. I actually, the chief medical officer said, hey, I need you to go talk to the sexual assault office.

[A]

So they had an office for that.

[B]

Brand new. Okay, Brand new. In fact, I was.

[A]

Why did they have an office for that?

[B]

So I found this out later, but for years, there had been victims of sexual assault that had been trying. Trying to get some sort of eyes on this. This issue, trying to get some sort of accountability. And so what they would do is they had. They had a few places at CIA where they were able to post stories of women that had been, you know, raped, sexually assaulted at work, and then also what the agency had done in response, which was usually nothing. And this obviously created quite the fervor at CIA of like, like, you guys got to do something about this.

[A]

But this was still internal at this point, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah, always.

[A]

So this wasn't leaving the. The boundary of the Agency. Okay.

[B]

Never leaving. And. And to talk to a lot of those women who had been working on this, and we've been working on this for decades. Right. They had been very specific. And we don't, you know, we're going to try to keep this all internal. We're going to try to work as a team internally and take care of this.

[A]

Good luck.

[B]

Yeah. And so I had. Yeah, good luck is.

[A]

Is exactly never a good idea when an agency says, let's handle this ourselves. We don't need to tell anybody else. We don't need any transparency. We don't need any oversight of any kind. I can't say I've seen every situation, but in the ones that I have seen, it hasn't netted out well specifically for the people who were abused.

[B]

Yeah, but that is how we got to an office. Right. Because essentially the CIA leadership said, hey, please stop posting these stories. He had no, we'll give you an office. Right. And that's what, literally, that was the conversation. Stop posting these stories. We will give you an office with somebody in it. And to let you know how new this was, I was told by that office, oh, you're our guinea pig case. So that's how brand new this office was.

[A]

I think they call that really bad bedside Manner.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. And you start to find out. Right. Later on, I found out, you know, the person they initially hired into this to run this office really had no training. It was an internal hire from their HR core.

[A]

Wow. Really trying to keep this inside of the walls.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yes. But you don't know, like, me talking to this woman for the very first time. I didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah. If it has, like, sexual assault, whatever on the door, you're going to assume that the person you're dealing with is a trained professional with that's their professional occupation.

[B]

You would think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But no, this. This is someone that had had a completely different career track up into that point. But yeah. So off to the races we went. You know, it was really interesting because for me, a lot of my reporting came from the fact I was having all of these weird physical and psychological issues. Right. And it was something I couldn't control. It was something other people could see something wrong with. Rachel, like, this is a total turn of events. And talking to security, that is what really started to disturb me was that, you know, I. I told a couple of. Basically, security said, like, you know, scram. Right? Like, yeah, that's nice. Like, get out of here. So it took a couple of weeks, and then I started to have to tell other people that I knew and that I was friends with. Like, hey, like, this is what happened. I just. I want to stay away from this person. This is what happened. Like, you know, can you walk me to my car? Right. I don't feel safe. And I think that's something that a lot of people don't understand is, like, for most sexual assaults, you know, it happens. Maybe it's one night, maybe it's not at work, and then usually you can avoid that person. Right. For me, I was having to show up to work every single day, Right. And I was having security say things to me, like, we need to protect his rights. We need to protect his privacy. We will not restrict. We will not restrict any of his movements. Right. And they were putting this in writing. And so I had a girlfriend that had previously worked on the Hill. She was also a former jag, and she said, hey, let me help you write some of these questions to get some clarity on, like, what's. What's going on here? What's this process? So she writes them down, and I sent them out to security, and I was shocked at what I got back. Right. It's. We don't want work with local law enforcement. So if you want to go to the Police about this, then you're going to be spilling national security secrets. And, you know, we can put you in jail for that.

[A]

Jesus, again. Painting with a broom.

[B]

Yeah. Other stuff that they. They would send back to me were things like, you know, I asked like, hey, do survivors have any sort of, like, rights here? Like what, you know, do you put people on admin leave? And they told, oh, well, that's not our department. You're going to have to go ask the sexual assault person who then, you know, referred me back to. You know, you start to get in these circular bureaucratic traps. 4. And this went on, right? This went on probably too long. And then. And so I started reporting like I would get referred to. Oh, if you. If you want to be separated from him, then you need to tell every single manager that you have from here on out what happened. And hopefully they will separate you. But then there's also this office that might be able to help you called the Anti Harassment Program office. All right, Go to them. All right. Tell them what happened. Okay, yeah, this is true, but we're not going to tell you about anything in terms of. Other than the fact that, yes, we have substantiated your claim. Right. Then you go to eeo, like, hey, this happened. What happens now? I ended up reporting to several offices because essentially every single office I was going to was going, not us. We don't want to deal with this. Yeah. What you might be saying is true, but we don't want to deal with it. So you get to November. I was attacked in July. You get to November, and I got back in writing documents from eeo.

[A]

What does that stand for?

[B]

Equal employment.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And equal, you know, EEO is pretty ubiquitous between across the federal government, and they are federally required to give me back documents in terms of, like, how the investigation is going and what was said. And I get back a document that basically comes from. Says from my attacker. Yes, I strangled her. Yes, it was on CIA property, you know. Yes, it was a sexual act. Right. And at that point I'm like, what are we doing here?

[A]

Case closed.

[B]

Yeah. And so this, you know, I'm going back to security saying, like, why is he here? Like, what's going on here, guys? And I was given a lot of, like, this isn't my department. You know, you're on your own for this. Right. Oh, but you better not go to local law enforcement. You better not go to law enforcement with any of this. So I found an attorney, and really, I didn't find an attorney by this point. Right. I Had. Had. I was very, very fortunate that I had a really great network of people that were also asking the same questions of, like, what, what in the hell's going on? Like, why is this person still here? Like, why are we still dealing with this internally?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because at this point, right, like, nobody in my family knows that I work for CIA other than my husband.

[A]

What did he think about it?

[B]

Well, security at first told me I was not allowed to tell my husband.

[A]

Interesting call. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. They were worried about my attacker's safety,

[A]

as they should be reasonable. That's one of the more reasonable things I've heard so far.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In this story.

[B]

Yeah. So they told me I couldn't tell him. I, obviously I disobeyed. I told him. And he's in law school, right. And he's like, what? You know, like, why haven't they. And I think it was more of that confusion and, you know, okay, we, we can't take the fact that he's done this to you, but what are the consequences? What in the hell is going on there? And that was, that was most of the community's reaction inside the CIA. Right. We have. I ended up, you know, training with quite a bit of former SOF members and that was their same reaction. It was like, hey, usually like these things just, they get handled, right? Like there are processes and they're handled and they could see I was getting this like, total run around. So in November, I, I got an attorney involved. Actually, one of my supervisors went out and found an attorney for me because the CIA was so down my neck about, like, if you talk to anyone about this, if you tell anybody, like, we're sending you prison, like, goodbye.

[A]

Which is so weird because it's not a matter of national security like that. That blanket statement needs to actually mean something. There. There are 100 things that exist that are matters of national security. Means, means and methods, techniques, procedures, all like, totally understand that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What you are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with national security whatsoever.

[B]

Right. Their, their main concern and the reason that they were able to wave this flag at me was you're a member of CIA, you're undercover, he's a member of CIA, he's undercover. Both of that is considered national security information. If you go and reveal this to local law enforcement, you've just put your own career down the drain. And his.

[A]

Okay, that's an interesting wrinkle. I still don't think that rises to the level of national security.

[B]

It doesn't.

[A]

Also, if somebody's going to do that Maybe they shouldn't be undercover, you know, maybe. Not that I know anything about the agency or how it works, but maybe, just maybe, that's a disqualifying factor.

[B]

Yes, you. You would think. But, you know, there is a. What I was unfortunately educated about is there's this long history of that type of behavior at CIA. Right around that time we had some of the publicity around Brian. His name. Brian Jeffrey. Now that's Warren Jeffries. Brian Raymond. That's his name.

[A]

Look it up.

[B]

Michael Brian Raymond. So we'll talk about him for a second. But essentially you have this guy that had been caught, another CIA officer, Mandarin speaker, Spanish speaker, that had been for 14 years, drugging and raping women at federally leased properties all around the world.

[A]

30 years. I wish those numbers were larger. Brian Jeffrey Raymond, 48, of La Mesa, California.

[B]

Dammit.

[A]

30 years in prison for drugging and sexually abusing numerous women in multiple countries, including photographing and video recording more than two dozen nude and partially nude women without their consent while they were unconscious or incapable of consenting. Pleaded guilty November 7, 2023. 28 women.

[B]

So the only reason this guy got caught, Right? This is being done on.

[A]

This was an agency guy.

[B]

This is an agency guy. Yeah, absolutely. Going on for more than a decade.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who would, wow, drug women and then film and take pictures of them while they're unconscious, while he did terrible things to them. The only reason he got caught was because a woman in Mexico City, a foreigner, he did not drug enough and she ended up running naked out into the balcony screaming for help. That's how he got caught.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

And to think that there weren't complaints about him internally before that there were. Right. Like this is not something.

[A]

Or he'd be the most accomplished predator in the history of accomplished predators.

[B]

Exactly. And we see this, right? There's. I think his name's Warren. You're gonna have to check me on that one, Michael. But there's. This goes back, right? Another one, he was an Algerian station chief doing the same thing, drugging and raping women all around the world. This one in particular, Brian Raymond. They can't find all of his victims. That's how many that he had. Right. They've got 28 women. But the FBI is still looking for information or additional victims of his.

[A]

Damn. So I hope that his life.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I hope his life in prison is extremely uncomfortable.

[B]

But.

[A]

So what would happen, though, for an agency dude? Would they separate him for his own protection?

[B]

Probably. I don't know. I don't know what they would do with him. Right.

[A]

Like Andrew Warren, he has martial arts training. I don't know what that means. Maybe it's karate. It's hard to say. Extension the Middle east and speak six Arabic dialects. Wow. As well as Persian. Former CA operative served as the CA station chief in Alers, Algeria, from 07 to 08. In 2010, he was. He pledged, he pleaded, he. That should be singular. He pled guilty to charges of sexual assault of two women in the following year. Has sentenced over five years in federal prison. Released from prison in 2015 as a result of criminal charges, he was also fired from the caa. Yeah. Sucks that you would actually have to add that last sentence. You would think that would be up front.

[B]

And this is another one where.

[A]

Oh, look at the bottom. In 2013, he admitted to participating in the torture of detainees. He drank more heavily as he started to question the morality of his actions.

[B]

Okay, so this is another one where it wasn't necessarily our own CIA security services that were catching this. Right. It took usually a foreign woman to be able to come forward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this one in particular, once, you know, it started to spread around the agency that, you know, not only had I been assaulted, but it's like, hey, like, I'm gonna try to actually, like, this is. This is not right. Like, something's really broken in this process. I. I heard a lot about Warren in particular, and how many women had come forward and said, hey, there. There's something wrong here. Like, you guys, you need to do something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they got ignored or they got retaliated against, which is like. Which was the playbook. Right. So for me, you know, November, I get the documents that basically say it's. It's no longer necessarily a he said, she said. Right. We're both saying the same thing happened. So at that point, you know, when I get an attorney involved, he's a former case officer at the CIA, so he understands the dynamics. He understands a lot of how the Agency operates. And he starts to talk to them, basically saying, like, hey, guys, like, you got to do something about this. Right. Like, you know, and if you don't,

[A]

you're loading the gun that we're going to end up firing. Yeah.

[B]

But I mean, to be fair, prior to me, anytime they had had any sort of allegations, they were able to intimidate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The victim into silence or just quitting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it had worked. It didn't work for generations. And so, you know, they continued to follow their. Their typical playbook. You know, we saw so many of the. We have to protect his rights. We have to protect his privacy. Right. We're not going to restrict his movements. Right. And so through that time, my attorney finally was like, all right, we're. Are you willing to do something more about this? And I was. At that point, I was so mentally messed up, right? From, you know, essentially being gaslit in so many different ways and feeling so unsafe every single day at work being told, hey, like, I know you. I know it might be, you know, good for your mental health to be have this guy badge blocked from your vault. Right. We don't work on the same thing. We don't work on the same topics, but we're not going to badge block him because we don't want to restrict his movements. Oh, you. You'd like to go to the gym? Yeah, no, he's gonna. He has unfettered access. All right? So by the time we roll around to December, I. It's like, okay, we're going to the FBI. And then we. Fairfax county got involved, which is where CIA properties sits. And, you know, I was able to obtain a protective order.

[A]

And is that kind of the point of no return when. As far as the agency was concerned, when you brought in the outside organizations?

[B]

I would say the point of no return is definitely Congress.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. And that happened.

[A]

At some point, you're going to pierce their. You know, they want to handle everything internally and keep it inside of their ecosystem. At some point, you pierce that.

[B]

Yeah. And I think they. They were, you know, upset that I went and filed a police report, but that wasn't really the last straw from them.

[A]

Okay, Right.

[B]

Because it's a crime. It's on federal property. You know, you speed on the agency compound and, you know, you're going to get a ticket, you're going to go to federal court. Right. You know, we. We weren't. You know, we told him, like, hey, you guys aren't going to do anything about this. Like, we're going to Congress. Like, this is crazy, because at this point, like, I've. I've built up, you know, hundreds of documents from all of these different offices that I had to go relive the trauma in front of. And they all had kind of just said, well, you know, good luck to you. And so it was. It was Congress that really pissed them off. And that was a very surreal experience because I was not going in to officially testify. I was just going in to talk to Congress just to say, hey, this is the issue I'm having.

[A]

And how do you even set that up?

[B]

My attorney was very well connected in terms of having known people on hpc. So hpsi, meaning the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, so that is the House's oversight committee for CIA.

[A]

And so what does the attorney do? Essentially say, hey, we need to get you guys together because we have something we need to talk about.

[B]

He contacted one of their permanent staffers and said, hey, I've got this case where, you know, she's been sexually assaulted and she's been told that she can't go to local law enforcement, she can't go to law enforcement in general, and she's not allowed to talk about it. And she's getting a lot of these weird threats and they're basically trying to shoo her away. And Congress was like, oh, well, that's interesting. And so we set up a date, right? And they said, okay, well, have her come talk to us, you know, on this date and time. And one of the things that you don't understand as a normal law abiding citizen is that for me to be able to go talk to Congress, you would think as an American, I could just go talk to them, right? If they're willing to listen. Well, at CIA, CIA has a very specific Office of Congressional Affairs. And so I started getting threats from Office of Congressional affairs, basically saying, no, you're, you don't need to go talk to them. At least give us, give us a couple of weeks so we can, you know, make sure there's no national security information that's going to be leaked here or that you're going to, you know, do anything that will compromise your cover status. Right? And basically at that point, you, I knew what they were up to, right? They wanted to grease the skids and get in there and, and have their say about it. And I, I told them, right? Like, I was like, no, I'm going, right? Like, we're, we're going. You guys have had months to rectify the situation, and clearly I am not the only one that is treated like this. So we're gonna go talk. And I was literally sitting at my desk that morning, I'll never forget, and on the phone with legal at Congressional affairs. And she said, if you walk out of this office today, there are gonna be consequences. Rachel.

[A]

Damn. Yeah, a little bit on the nose.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, okay, click. Bye. So that was, that was the point where, you know, and I showed up and told him. I was like, look, like, I know my career in terms of being able to spy or is likely my days are numbered.

[A]

Would you even have wanted to continue at an organization that was treating you like that anyway, though?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Like I, I loved the mission and I think that's, that's what was still is very heartbreaking to me is because I had all of these people that were just really wonderful and supportive and they were, we had a job to do. And I thought at the time a

[A]

framework and architecture of an organization that wasn't there to support you when you needed it though. So it's not. And I agree with you, the mission is utterly legitimate. But if the agency itself is not able to protect its own people, that

[B]

was, I thought at the time, at that time, I thought this is a compartmented issue, right? There's a certain number of people that have probably been here way too long that just don't understand you gotta deal with this. There's, there's a better way to do this, right? It was, I had seen as very compartmentalized because I could go to my job every day and be around people that, you know, loved and supported me and you know, were like, you're gonna have this kick ass career here. And it was trying to deal with all of the other nonsense that eventually I got there. But yeah, going to, going to Congress broke it open. And I think, you know, over those months and trying to find the resources, you know, you start to hear story after story of other victims and I mean, just stuff that would truly keep you up at night in terms of what they had endured and they had also decided to stay, right? So for me. It was, there's, there's a little bit of that, like Stockholm syndrome going on. But at the end of the day I thought, like, this is a problem that can be fixed, right? This is something that should be clear as day, black and white, let's fix this one.

[A]

How quickly after you spoke to Congress did things start, the gears start moving?

[B]

Almost immediately, right? Like that day when I got back to work, I mean, they started investigating my time card and you know, I was getting all sorts of weird messages and threats. So it started almost immediately afterwards. So what do you do?

[A]

What did Congress end up doing about it?

[B]

Multiple things. So, you know, I went in that day with my attorney and you know, the room, I was kind of shocked, but the room was packed. They had conference room down there in their vault. And you know, we went through like, okay, this is everything I know and I'm not the only one. And there are a bunch of other victims. They're like, hey, would you be willing to ask them if they would come talk to Us, like, you want them to risk their careers, too? Like, this is what we're talking about here. And so we started to work on a way to start that investigation. So Hipsy did its own investigation. Like, maybe a month later, the press got wind of it and it came out on. I think it was Politico that broke the story that said, hey, CIA is being investigated for the way that they handle sexual misconduct.

[A]

That was probably an awesome day at work for you.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know about that.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure the agency was super pumped.

[B]

Yeah, Well, I mean, I'll never forget my attorney telling me that day when, you know, I show up to his office the day we're supposed to go to Congress, and I'm like, congressional affairs is really angry at me, like, this is going to be bad. And he goes, I hate to be the person that has to walk over the director's office today and say, yeah, so we have an employee that's going to talk about sexual misconduct right now. And we couldn't stop her. But, yeah, when it hit the media, then, I mean, it was almost immediately the Senate side got involved. So the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence also called. Sissy called me up and wanted to talk. So I came in, I told them, hey, this is what's going on. And they actually ordered a separate investigation to be done by CIA's OIG. So the office of Inspector General. So we had the HPSI investigation and an OIG investigation that started at the same time. So HPSI was interviewing tons and tons and tons of victims. At the end of the day, I think they cited about a couple dozen that they could, you know, for sure say, hey, this. This person was sexually assaulted. CIA has evidence of it, and they did nothing.

[A]

So that's a rough optic.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. The report from the OIG side is like 600 plus pages long. And I would credit that the issue was so pervasive and so mismanaged that we went from me walking into Congress to say, hey, this is an issue to legislation in 11 months. Wow, 11 months. Congress doesn't do anything that fast.

[A]

No, that's basically Star wars light speed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a bureaucracy.

[B]

Yes. And that tells you also how bipartisan it was, too. So, you know, they. They had an investigation, they talked to tons of victims over the summer, spring and summer, and then we had a bill that summer ready to go. You know, CIA fought the bill. You know, they. They made some changes to it. And then that fall, I officially testified behind close closed doors.

[A]

And meanwhile, still going to work Every single day, did they reduce your access to information or change your work requirements at all? Or were you just going in and operating business as usual, as you were doing? And then when necessary and needed, going and talking essentially, on the Hill, I was really lucky.

[B]

I had some awesome supervisors. And I think because I was working, I was using my skills every single day that were needed. You know, it was, hey, Rachel, are you okay? Like, we want you here. We need your expertise. And then when you got to go take care of business, go take care of business. Now, when it came to the Farm, right? Because that fall when I ended up going up to the Hill was. I was at the Farm, and that was a totally different story. Right. The Farm is largely run by a lot of close to retirement CIA officers, Right. People that were very angry that I would ever embarrass the Agency. And so they had a lot to say about what I was doing, and they were very angry about it. So that dynamic was very difficult because I. I had to leave the Farm, right, to go testify before Congress. And I had the counselor at the time that was assigned to me, and she was like, do you know how much of an inconvenience this is for me? For me to go talk to Congress?

[A]

What a great counselor.

[B]

Yeah. But that gives you the mentality they had.

[A]

Oh, I get it. It's just. You think at some point you'd stop being shocked by stories like this, but.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, they. I would say, like, when I was at, you know, when I was in CIA proper, when I was dealing with operations, I had so many people working to protect me, so. And I. I credit them for how long I lasted because when it came to, you know, them going after my time cards, right, that didn't stop because just because I could say, hey, like, these are honest time cards. You can check them against me badging in and out. No, that was stopped because, you know, the head of eemc, the European Mission center, essentially came down and said, hey, trainee management, cut it out.

[A]

Yeah, we need her leadership stepped in and actually did their job.

[B]

Yeah. And because they were. They were, frankly, sick of it. And I think that's what surprises a lot of people is, you know, I had a ton of support from, like, the everyday folks at CIA, right. They knew that I was. That I was probably eventually going. They were going to find something that they were going to fire me on. But when I got to the Farm, that was a, like, truly hostile environment. And being called before Congress and having to come back and, you know, they're Angry. And so literally, you know, I testified September, we, we passed that bill in December. So it was a very fast.

[A]

What did the bill do or say?

[B]

It basically said, hey, you have to start telling Congress about these sexual assaults when they come forward. And you have to really tell us what you're doing about it.

[A]

Almost like a mandatory reporting requirement.

[B]

Yes, yes. And then they also modeled some of the legislation which I had advocated for to, to really track on what the military was doing. So giving survivors an option of restricted or unrestricted reporting, being able to have, you know, access to those resources if they needed them. You know, they didn't go quite as far as I think the military does, but it was something then. They had nothing before that. So it gave some very clear guidelines on, okay, these are the places you can report it. We're not going to have victims, you know, re traumatized and re traumatized by some of these investigators. And then you're, you know, CIA, you're going to be telling Congress what you're actually doing. So that was kind of the main tenets of the legislation. And that's not to say the legislation is done. It was, it was just in there very fast because Congress, both sides saw this is a, this is a massive issue that no one's been willing to address.

[A]

I should have asked you this earlier, I suppose, when you were talking about the. The person who attacked you essentially said in writing, yeah, these things happened. Nothing happened to him when he admitted that.

[B]

Not that I'm aware of.

[A]

Okay, so you're doing all these things in addition to being at the Farm and going to the Hill to testify. And what was this guy up to during this time?

[B]

Working. Goes to work every day.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

As far as I know. So there were, like I said anytime I would ask, like, hey, you know, is. Is this person separated from me? Like, am I going to run into this person in the hall? They would tell me, like, hey, we have to respect his privacy. We're not going to tell you anything. Well, you know, there were some retaliatory acts going on where CIA would actually, you know, I was working, you know, one issue for a few months, and then they actually put him on a, like a congruent topic. So all of a sudden he starts showing up out of all like the hundreds of people, like showing up on emails and they were just pulling that kind of crap for a while. But in all honesty, I was trying to stay as far away from him as possible. I was just trying to keep that separation. Yeah, I mean, I was terrified right and, you know, security was coming back to me and saying, oh, well, just let us know if it happens again. Let us know if he strangles you again.

[A]

That's a very reactive security mindset.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you for being there to help in a proactive manner. Yeah.

[B]

So. And you saw this with other victims where, you know, security had certain rules where. Right. Oh, if. If we're going to help you, you have to sit in this tiny little white room and we're going to record you. Right. Every single time you come ask us for help. Right. That was a requirement. They wouldn't help you otherwise, so they'd stuff you in a little white room. And then, you know, I come to find out that what they're calling, you know, victim intake, they're calling it walk ins. As if you're at an embassy and you have a foreign, you know, person come in and walk in with information. Right. So that's kind of the. The treatment that security was looking at victims of sexual assault with. And so going back to the legislation, it also required that the CIA, hey, you gotta have an actual legitimate victim investigator. You can't be having Joe Schmo go and investigate or talk to victims of sexual assault.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe have somebody who's trained and equipped to actually take care of that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because for me, I mean, one of the EEO investigators, official EO investigator, asked me straight up, well, if you weren't raped, why is this sexual assault?

[A]

Okay. Also known, I think is really bad bedside manner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Wow. How did the Farm end up for you?

[B]

So they didn't let me certify. That was kind of there.

[A]

Like a test at the end, you mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So made it all the way through. Great time. Loved it. Loved the job. But, yeah, they decided, hey, we're not going to certify you.

[A]

So what does that mean for your career?

[B]

Well, for my CIA career, Right. They were changing the rules. So at the time, they said, hey, we want you to go find a job in a different directorate or somewhere

[A]

else that wouldn't require the Farm certification.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And really, the Farm certification, you know, says to the CIA, hey, this person has, you know, met the requirements in order to handle assets. So it's fine. I think, you know, anyone inside or outside of the Farm understood what was going on. Right. This was not a lack of talent or ability. This was just merely, hey, you know, Rachel's case is on CNN right now and she's making us look awful at that time, Also, like, my attacker had been convicted right. That happened also while I was at the Farm.

[A]

In a court of law.

[B]

In a court of law.

[A]

Was that due to you pressing charges against him, or I should say through your attorney? How did that come to be?

[B]

So Fairfax county chose to press charges

[A]

against him based off of your information. Is that a fireable offense at the Agency? Like, is that what.

[B]

Not at the time. So he appealed, Right. Immediately afterwards.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so.

[A]

Which is not an uncommon tact.

[B]

No, no. So, yeah, the agency kept him on.

[A]

How'd the appeal go for him?

[B]

So he went on appeal.

[A]

Okay, so what. What did they introduce in the appeal that was different in the initial case?

[B]

So it was more so. So let me back up for a second, because this is always the fun part. Okay, so initial trial, it's a judge trial, right? It's a bench trial.

[A]

Did you have to participate in that?

[B]

Yes, I had to participate in all of them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Whether I wanted to or not. Yeah. So, you know, I leave the Farm, I go, I testify. And in the initial. The initial conviction trial, they had his statement. Right. His initial statement. You know, my.

[A]

Which is pretty damning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I'm not an attorney, but that's pretty black and white.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So it was a pretty short trial. Found guilty. I wasn't actually, you know, allowed to be there for the second day when that was announced. They told me at the Farm, I couldn't actually be there. So I got a call while I was down at the Farm, basically letting me know. And then the AP News, you know, released his name and the fact that he had been convicted.

[A]

Up until this point, they weren't releasing your name, correct?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. Because you were still working undercover.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I had been so Jane

[A]

Doe up until this point, essentially.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, CIA had actually called me out of training at one point. Another one of their, like, scare tactics is, you know, they called me out of training and had somebody from Public affairs get on the phone with me and say, hey, they're gonna release your name, your full name, and that's gonna end your career here. You know, maybe the press shouldn't be covering this.

[A]

You can't control the press.

[B]

No, I can't. And, you know, she was telling me on the phone, hey, we're gonna. They're looking at this, you know, from the highest levels of, you know, whatever news organization, and they're looking at releasing your name. And I was kind of like, at this point. Right. I KNEW they're the CIA's game. I was like, okay, all right, let me call my attorney. Right. And sure enough, like my attorney would call that news organization and that news organization was like, absolutely not. We've never even said anything close to that. What are you talking about? So again, like this was like a daily thing, right? There's always something to poke at me or try to intimidate me. But yeah, you just, I just kept going.

[A]

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[B]

So there were some leaps, right? And it got to a point where I think at one point, like, I was like, you guys are a bunch of perverts. Right? But that was just. That was their line, right? Like, Rachel's this terrible. This is what they do. And I'll say this like, this happens across the country for so many other victims. Right. The trial no longer is about the act itself, but it becomes. Hey, about the victim. Right. How can we discredit and make the victim look as terrible as possible?

[A]

Ad hominem attack.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, it was a learning experience for me in terms of why we have such low conviction rates on some of these sex crimes. Right. I think some of the statistics out there is that, you know, in terms of reported sexual assaults, the conviction rate is lowest 2%.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's horrible.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, it's terrible. Right? It's. It's. That is not. That is not the country that. That we need. Right.

[A]

It doesn't empower victims to step forward as well.

[B]

Exactly. And I. I remember being on the stand and saying exactly that. Like, this is why victims don't come forward. This is exactly why.

[A]

Did that guy, after his appeal, just go right back to the agency or. His name got released.

[B]

So his name got released.

[A]

So does that. So that kills his undercover career? Maybe. I don't know. But did he just go right back to the agency?

[B]

No, I have no idea what he did after that.

[A]

Do you know if he ever got fired?

[B]

No, he did not. He never got fired. He resigned.

[A]

Okay. Sometimes people do that, but right before they get fired. Depends on the heads up they have.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Okay. So at least he doesn't work at the agency anymore. That's a positive. Unless he is in downtown Maryland and just Works as a government contractor, basically doing exactly the same thing, which is an interesting workaround.

[B]

And that's one of the things that, you know, in the next rounds of legislation, I am trying to close those, those loopholes because I've, I've heard from victims over and over and over again, hey, my attacker got fired for xyz. Usually has nothing to do with the sexual assault. I've been, you know, I've asked like, hey, I don't want to be near this person. And then they come right back.

[A]

As a contractor, it is not a very well understood world, the. In the intelligence community, specifically the contractor status and the amount that the government leverages onto contractors. Oh, yeah, it is very undercovered.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, and that was one of the things that was so highly suspicious. The person that this poor guy that they accused me of having an affair with, this is not my attacker. Right. That some, this random guy, this, he was a contractor and he was the first person that told me to go report it. Right. This is the person that was. Because Joel can't walk me to my car at CIA, this was the person that was walking me to my car, you know, taking time out of his day and he ends up being the one that they go after.

[A]

Did he get out of it unscathed at least?

[B]

No. I mean, he's a contractor. No.

[A]

That sucks.

[B]

Yeah. No, and you saw that over and over again. Like, people that came forward to help me were also retaliated against. Right. And so that's why it was really important, as I brought additional women to Congress, that we did everything we could to protect their identities, protect them from, you know, the agency's retaliation policies. So, you know, and that meant if they showed up to CIA or, I'm sorry, if they showed up to Congress and they needed to sign, you know, that sign in book with my name, like that's what they were going to do. Right. Like that's, that is what we had to do in some cases just to protect them from, you know, being fired.

[A]

So what's the state of affair at the agencies now in regards to these type of situations?

[B]

Yeah, so it's a mixed bag. You know, there are some very clear cases of sexual assaults that are not being addressed. Right. But there are also, you know, some more recent cases where, you know, we have seen very clear consequences for someone's actions like this.

[A]

So it's, it's been internal at the CIA. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would you say that they are actually making changes, measurable changes that are being impactful?

[B]

I would say not enough, because. And this is the line that I keep getting told is, you know, you'll have victims come forward, but there's always the, hey, you might be careful how far you push this, because you could end up like, Rachel,

[A]

What have you been up to now since being fired from the agency?

[B]

So I went back to my old job. Yeah. So I work as a military contractor, which I love.

[A]

You think you love it more than you would have loved the agency stuff. I mean, it's different, obviously, unless you're doing private espionage, which you probably shouldn't tell me. But.

[B]

It's different. Right. I think, like, I love the people I work with. I love working in the military community. Right. It's such a different world than the intelligence world. And I think that as I've gotten older, like, that's what I love. Right. Like, I love being around those people that, you know, they want to get the job done, they want to do it as a team. Right. And I'm not saying this is everywhere and everything for Department of War, but I really love, like, that community. And I don't think I realized it until I was in the agency that it's. It's so starkly different. And I miss. I miss my people at CIA. But at the end of the day, like, you know, to your point, if you're not willing to treat your people right, if you're not willing to protect Americans on American soil, what are you doing? Right. And I think that's where, for me, I see, you know, change can still be affected by, you know, whether it's policy or laws or changes in some of the leadership there. But I'm. I love my job. Right. I love. Yeah, I love what I do.

[A]

Do you think it's essential that the intelligence community and the Department of War do have different mentalities?

[B]

No. I think that the intelligence community could really benefit from some of the mentalities that are within the Department of War.

[A]

But if they were. If they were the same, and I don't know the answer to this, but I'm just thinking out loud.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, sometimes people will say, the Department of War is a hammer, and what is a hammer? Always looking for a nail. If the intelligence community was also a hammer and they're always looking for a nail, I could see that hammer being slightly misused at times.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

You know, and again, I'm just thinking out loud like it is intelligence and analysis. At least my optic. I've never done those jobs, so I'm talking out of my ass. Already it is a different type of person who wants to do that versus say, the world that I came from. And that's okay because those are totally different jobs. I think it's if managed appropriately. I think the difference in mentality is a net positive. I think there is risk if they were both like, nail, nail, nail.

[B]

No. And I think that's where like looking at different factions of the military. Right. For. Because we put members of the military through the farm. Right. There are human collectors in the military. They're, they're fabulous people. Right. And I, I think that there's an opportunity where if the intelligence community could have the same types of, you know, some of the same support and some of the same accountability measures that the military has, then that would be, you know, very disruptive to the intelligence community. But it also would bring a layer like it's become about accountability. Right. And that's really what you have with the intelligence community is lacking. Right. You know, John Doe does something wrong and then, you know, oh, he's a member of the ic. Oh, you know, we don't want him to go sell secrets to China, so we're just going to let him get off scot free.

[A]

Which is a totally excuse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, two things can be true at once. You know, they can be an important member of the ic, also be a douchebag and be held accountable for those things.

[B]

Right. And that's something that you see the military at least working towards.

[A]

Yeah. Military isn't perfect either by any stretch.

[B]

No, not at all. But I will say, like throughout at least my experience, you know, the support I got from the military, you know, whether it was at Walter Reed or it was through their SHERP offices was like night and day. And I was, I will say that is a large reason why I knew that there was something fundamentally wrong with CIA and the way that they responded. My sexual assault. Right. Because I had something to compare it to. I went to DOD and I said, hey, you know, this person's a Navy reservist and like to report. And they took it, they took it seriously. They had the right types of resources. And for me, the comparison of the two, it was so interesting because I kept going back to that 23 year old at CIA that doesn't know any different. Right. That if she loses her job, she's got nothing. Yeah, right. Her next job is what right for me, I was able to continue on and continue fighting and basically say like, CIA, do your worst to me because I'm going to just keep talking, you Know, I had a husband of 10 years. I, you know, had this great career that I knew I could step right back into. I had all the family support in the world. And so to really be able to juxtapose those two worlds, that's, that's what really gave me that sense of like, okay, like something's wrong here. And, you know, we can maybe at least align some of these structures, things that worked for the military, for me, into the CIA, obviously with the caveats of understanding the differences in the intelligence community. But it comes back to that accountability piece, right? When you have no accountability, people are gonna do what as they're gonna push it as far as they can. They're gonna end up like Brian Raymond with you know, almost 500 images of, you know, drugged and passed out women doing eye checks and putting his hands in his mouth and their mouths and all other sorts of nasty things.

[A]

His prison sentence was not long enough.

[B]

I hate to break this to you, but they rarely are.

[A]

Yeah. And if they say you get 40 years, what are you going to serve out of that?

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Because 40 somehow means 15.

[B]

Yeah. No, and that's, that's why you don't see much of a reaction from my faces because I'm not surprised anymore when you have a 2%. 2%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Conviction rate for people coming forward. It. When, when you have some of these. I don't know if you were, you know, you've seen the, the coverage in CNN about rape academy where you have no.

[A]

Oh, gosh, is this recent?

[B]

Oh, this is very recent.

[A]

Rape academy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Boy, I don't even know if I. Michael, go ahead. But I don't know if I want to look this one up. So I'll tell you what, it's better than the images he was looking up yesterday.

[B]

Oh gosh. What were you looking at yesterday, Michael?

[A]

He can show you.

[B]

Oh yeah,

[A]

had a guy on who had prostate cancer and we were.

[B]

Oh no.

[A]

Oh no indeed. Not only did the situation but oh no to the images Michael was.

[B]

So you can see this came out in March.

[A]

Salt there wise. What? Hold on. Is this military based or is it. Okay, this is, this is just the state of affairs of humanity.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Exposing a global rape academy. In shocking group chats, men encourage one another to drug and assault their wives and swap tips on getting away with it. Okay, Michael, go ahead. Gender inequality. You can faq. The world was confronted by this form of Internet enabled abuse in 2024 during the mass rape and drugging trial of Dominique Pellicot or Pellico. That's always very difficult. And 50 other men in southern France, there's a so called dating website. In a chat room called without her knowledge. Oh my goodness. Connect with dozens of other men to instigate the rapes of his then wife Giselle. While drugging. Unconscious by. Unconscious by him. She was wrapped. I can't even.

[B]

Okay, so this investigation obviously coming out very recently, within the last few months,

[A]

a chainsaw solves this problem. Just for clarity, by the way.

[B]

Well, this website I think in an alibi also.

[A]

Sorry,

[B]

you're gonna need a lot of chainsaws. 62 million sites visits in one month. 62 million.

[A]

You just need new blades and I think a lot of gas, you know what I mean? I don't know how long it takes to work.

[B]

Well, I think, you know, when I think about, you know, this type of a website, like I said, 62 million visits in one month.

[A]

And here's the thing. The Internet is the best worst thing ever created by humans. I love being able to FaceTime with my niece and nephew. I love being able to when I travel, maybe FaceTime with my miniature dachshund. It's not that big of a deal. Totally normal adult male behavior. But also I wish we lived in a world where people who were into this type of shit didn't have connectivity to other people that were into this type of shit. Not that they couldn't find each other. Because from what I've been able to tell these people who are into this, I'm going to call this some very dark, kinky, evil shit. They have a way of sensing that in other people. So they still will find each other. But not 70 million hits. Yeah, you know what I mean. I'm not saying that there's not that many people out there, but it sucks that they have this nucleus of information, a repository of information that they can share.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean this is the kind of stuff I'd like to see NSA working on.

[A]

I was just thinking I'll share my inside thoughts, which is a dangerous thing from time to time. Israel's good at some stuff like exploding pagers. Loved it. And then I have to think, did they put a little bit of a delay in there? So when the pager went off, the person brought it up to their face before it went off.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm thinking three to five second delay would make it more lethal. Why can't we have. If you're into this type of stuff, and I'm not saying this is correct, I'm just saying these are my Thoughts. Why can't your computer monitor explode in your face? I mean, can we solve that one? Am I saying that anybody should do this? No. I'm just sharing my internal thoughts of solutions that I would like to see.

[B]

Okay, yes. Yes.

[A]

Not trying to give anybody ideas, but people like that, they're not capable of stopping themselves, from what I can determine.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So they either have to be caught and put into a cell.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or control alt. Deleted off the face of the planet.

[B]

Yeah. And so this is. I mean, this is horrific, but I think it really exposed that underbelly of, you know, this is much more rampant than I think people understand or understood.

[A]

I mean, I hope not,

[B]

but statistics. One in five women sexually assaulted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You think about how many women you know in your life.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And that doesn't mean all of them are going to come forward and tell you about it.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And so. And a lot of them, they don't come forward because of that. You know, whether it's shame, whether they're scared of what you're going to think, and I'm not saying that's why they

[A]

don't, or they see how other victims are treated.

[B]

And that is a huge part of it. Right. I. I was in a. Like I said, I was in a very unique position where I knew that anyone that I talked to about this understood that I would not just throw away my dream career. I wouldn't just throw it away. Right. Something serious was really going on. I had family support, you know, you know, which way to Sunday, you know, and my dad actually sat down, and when I told him, I mean, he said, you do not quit that place. Do not quit. You make them fire you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. You hold every single one of them accountable to. To the point you can. Right.

[A]

What did your husband's dad think about it?

[B]

My husband's dad?

[A]

Yeah. The one who was. He was a case officer, right?

[B]

No, that's my husband's grandpa.

[A]

Yeah. So was he still around?

[B]

He was not at the CIA. Still.

[A]

No. I mean, was he still alive?

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And, I mean, his. His health has deteriorated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he was. I mean, you could tell it was breaking his heart.

[A]

I mean, he gave 35 years of his life to that organization. And, I mean.

[B]

And he was one of those men at CIA. I mean, you'd go down into his office, and he's got letters signed from Reagan, he's got pictures with Colin Powell. Right. I mean, this is somebody that worked at the highest tiers of government, and it would not be uncommon for me to be in meetings at CIA, and I'd see, like, some piece of art that I noticed from grandpa's basement. I'd be like, hey, do you know Fred? They'd be like, oh, my God, Fred hired me. It'd be. And he was so encouraging of women in intelligence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He wanted to see more women there. And so, you know, when he found out that I was working at CIA, I mean, he was so excited I was working in operations. Oh, my God, this is amazing. You're gonna. You know, he had told me for years before that, hey, I think you need to be working at CIA. But when it happened, I mean, he was so excited. So for me to make it and then have this happen to me and then the reaction of CIA be so poor and have it having happened under his nose, it really broke his heart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did the DOW treat the guy any differently because he was reservist? Did they take action against him? They did.

[B]

I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say publicly.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, don't get yourself in trouble, because I have no idea.

[B]

Yeah. So. But I did report him. The DOW did take him to a board, and I don't think I can release those results yet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But.

[A]

Well, it seems like. Yeah, I mean, the point of the question being. It seems like they took. Was to judge whether or not they took action.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

In a more substantial way than the Agency.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

Like, they did.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

And I think that was the point of the question. So the result of what actually happened to him is kind of irrelevant.

[B]

Yeah. No, And. And thank you for that. I appreciate, like, not being pressured into answering that.

[A]

Yeah. Don't get yourself in trouble.

[B]

Yeah. No, and I. I will say, like, that is when I'm at the Pentagon every day, like, that is something that makes me really excited to go into work, is because I know the logic is so much simpler and, you know, hey, you know, if you're going to act like that, we're going to hold you accountable.

[A]

It's insane, too, because it's such a larger organization than the agent. I mean, that's. It's got to be magnitudes. Well, I mean, I think 1.5 million active 500,000 reservists, so about 2 million people directly involved in that. I mean, that's. I. I have no idea how many people work at the agency or the intelligence community in general, but I feel that many people. Yeah. I feel like the do. How long are we going to call it the DW by the way, I mean, you know, it's interesting, people freak out that the name was changed. It was originally called that to begin with. So yeah, it'll change and it's going to go back and I'm sure the next administration, well, depending on what color their jersey is, will change. It's like whatever.

[B]

Yeah. The military.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. No, you're exactly right. And I think it's, I mean, we all know that the military has had a very dark history with this subject.

[A]

It actually is probably the reason why they are taking action now because so many people came forward.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That unfortunately, I think they had to choke on it a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. And I am eternally grateful to those that worked that because I saw the benefits of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And to hear about, you know, how hard they had to work in order to at least get the systems in place that have any sort of trace of accountability. I benefited from those systems. And I will say, you know, one of the little known parts of the Dow that in reporting mechanisms that it's not as well advertised, that I benefited from greatly was there's this system that if you're approaching a sharp advocate, there is a, what they call the catch system and it is essentially an anonymous reporting tool for victims in order for the military to be able to identify serial offenders.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. So it's called the CATCH system. And one of the things that I'd like to see is I'd like to see it expanded for the full federal government. Right. I think that, you know, for me, having an anonymous way to report, and it wasn't the only way in which I reported, but having an anonymous way to report and then, you know, if that person has offended and that person has been entered before into this system, it pops up. Right. And the, the criminal investigative service of whatever branch is assigned to it calls your sharp advocate and basically talks to them and says, hey, we have a, we have a hit on this person. As a serial offender, is your victim willing to either unrestrict a report or take it further? And that was something that I think for a lot of victims is, is so heartening because it lets you put in, into the record like, hey, this happened, this happened to me. And unfortunately we're in a society where, you know, if it's one victim, it's, you know, let's attack the victim. If you start to see all of the other victims or if you hear that there are multiple victims, then society starts to set up and say, oh, okay, well you know, Bill Cosby, maybe this is an Issue, Weinstein. Maybe this is an issue. Right. Unfortunately, it takes, you know, usually dozens.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think that's something that the Dow Institute and they've instituted relatively recently that I cannot impress enough that is, you know, something that is working. Right. And so, yeah, the military is. Is taking the issue seriously, and they are trying, and they're doing a whole hell of a lot more than I will say most federal government agencies are, so. And I'm not saying it's perfect. Right.

[A]

Well, no system is perfect. It's not going to serve everybody equally. But, yeah, definitely steps in the right direction, it sounds like.

[B]

Yeah. And I was, you know, and you compare that even to, like, law enforcement. Right. I. I'll never forget having my attorney say, hey, you know, I went in with another victim to, you know, I think it was Loudoun County Police Department to have them take another CIA officer's statement. And that Loudoun county officer had taken a lot of my experiences and. And how I had talked about the way that I had been treated as a victim and then tried to make changes into their own investigatory, like their own investigation and those practices to try to make the comfort the victim feel comfortable with telling their full story.

[A]

I mean, that's progress right there.

[B]

Yeah. And so I think those. Those small impacts have meant a lot to me, because you just. I had no clue. I really didn't know much about this issue before it happened to me, and I didn't approach this issue until I was in my mid-30s. And now it's something like, I can't unsee.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. It's something that, you know, happens far too often and it's important. And, you know, like, if I haven't already, like, thank you for having me here.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Because I found that, you know, there are people out there that really, you know, and especially men. Right. That are like, this is like, let's do something about that. Like, let's. Let's have this conversation.

[A]

Hands on those people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which. And then puts me back in jail, which doesn't really help anything. My wife would be. Well, it helps some people.

[B]

Okay. Fair.

[A]

Limited in scope and scale until you end up in jail yourself. It's not the right solution, though. Yeah.

[B]

No. And I think, you know, for a lot of the SOF that were at the CIA with me, it was, you know, of course, that's like, their first reaction.

[A]

Most people in Special Operations, in my experience, are protectors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

First and foremost, they want to step up in between somebody who is being abused and the abuser. And do something about it.

[B]

Yes. And I saw, you know, so many of them stood up for me.

[A]

It's a good thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To hear that.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's funny, when I, When I went back to my old job and, you know, I was. My cover was being rolled back. And so, you know, I'm talking to them, they're all men, and explaining them like, I don't think you understand that the most support I've had is from men. Right. Men do not like this type of behavior.

[A]

No.

[B]

Amongst their own kind. And they have always been like this bedrock of stability in terms of very clear eyed and Rachel, you should report this. No, I don't care what he's threatening to do. Just keep going. Right. I don't care what the agency is threatening to do. Like, you're gonna be fine. Right. If they want to knock you off, they. Then you're a martyr. Like, just keep going. Like, we've got you. And I think that's something that's been really surprising. Right. I think, you know, we've gotten into this like, gender war of like men versus women. And some people, some people have.

[A]

It's very amplified on social media, but I don't think social media is an accurate reflection of the vast majority of people.

[B]

Yeah, maybe not, but I think there's a. Certainly a sentiment there. And suffice to say, I think it's really important that you have men in your conversations here. You know, the committee that worked on the legislation in Congress, I mean, it was all men. Right. They were horrified of what was going on. And so I do want folks to know, like, this is, this is not something where, you know, it has to be some sort of all men are terrible and on rape academy and.

[A]

Yeah. You gotta be careful with absolutes. Is your husband practicing law yet?

[B]

No. After the appeal trial, he was incredibly disturbed at our criminal justice system and decided pretty much there. Like, I. I've always tried to engage in professions that are honorable and watching what happened at that trial was not honorable.

[A]

It could have been the people, though, more than the occupation. But I understand where he's coming from.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what's he doing now?

[B]

He's living his best life.

[A]

What does that mean? So obviously, board shorts, flip flops.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Sunglasses, T shirt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is a standard team guy attire.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What's, you know, post military is looking. What's his best life looking like now?

[B]

He plays a lot of pickleball.

[A]

Did you say pickleball?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have an immense amount of Judgment of your husband.

[B]

That's how he gets a lot of his socialization. He's like a very social creature. He stop it bikes a lot because that's what he can do. We have two German short haired pointers.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So he is spending a lot of time with them. And yeah, he's.

[A]

Does he want to do anything else professionally or occupationally? Is he just waiting for the correct motivation? I mean, I think that's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think you can be comfortable in not knowing. And if you can get comfortable in that, a lot of opportunities will present themselves.

[B]

Yeah. And I think I liked what you said early on, which was Joel always thought he was going to be a SEAL and that was going to be it.

[A]

It's tough.

[B]

Yeah. I mean he was at three and I think, I mean they called him the Admiral at some points. Right. Like everybody thought like this is all sick.

[A]

That was a. That was a good thing.

[B]

I don't. Well, he was also called.

[A]

There's a couple different ways to say sir. One of them is positive, one of them is negative. You know, the inflection matters. How you really dragging out the R. Calling somebody the Admiral may not to be the best thing.

[B]

Well, this was definitely meant in the most complimentary way. I mean he was also called the Kool Aid man trying to take down false walls. So he got a few lectures on try not to be quite like. Yeah, too much like the enlisted and go all out.

[A]

Yeah. You always got to stay in their lane a little bit. But got to get him off the pickle ball though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is taking over.

[B]

Yeah, he loves it.

[A]

I played it one time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I played four games only because my mother in law wouldn't shut up about how good she was at pickleball and she's gonna beat everybody. So I had never played, dominated 4 0. Not a big deal. We don't have to celebrate it. There's not pictures and video to show the victory. My whole goal though was to demolish my wife's mother at pickleball, which did happen. And then I retired and.

[B]

And then you're okay.

[A]

So she was furious. I'm sure she was play again. No, I am retired.

[B]

That's like when I just. So my sister and my dad are like the runners in the family. And I was competing in fitness in my 20s while Joel and I were dating. And they were like, oh yeah, we're gonna go out and do some like four hundreds. We're gonna, you know, start doing some like time trial training for mile. And so dad had us Pace it out. And he was pacing us out and did a few laps. All right, all right. And he's like, all right, this is the last one. Everybody all out. I smoked them. I smoked them. Not being a runner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being more of a weightlifter.

[A]

And then retire.

[B]

And then I retired. I never was like 100. I will never ever race you guys again.

[A]

Why do you need to. No, we've seen the results. I don't need to repeat them. Retired. It's called free real estate. In your brain for the rest of your life.

[B]

For the rest of your life.

[A]

Yeah. I completely support every time you run a 400. I could see the fury and rage building in her and it just absolutely warmed my heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, by the way, my wife was there watching and we invited others to come watch as well. My father did. Yes, he came and we had a little bit of some spectators just because I wanted there to be witnesses.

[B]

Did you practice beforehand?

[A]

Zero times. I touched a pickleball paddle for the first time right before she served the ball.

[B]

Oh my God. Okay, you're. You're one of those.

[A]

She's almost 80. I. So I. To be clear, I dominated a geriatric

[B]

just like a meet the parents.

[A]

So physically we're at two different levels. This was before her cataract surgery. So questionable as to. We did use an orange ball though. So I feel like that. That at least leveled field. I don't care. I'm just throwing out the stats here. A win is a win. Retired.

[B]

No, no. Well, and that's the thing. So Joel is not hyper competitive about it. I think he has just started.

[A]

You don't have to lie for him.

[B]

What? No.

[A]

I'm sorry. Was your husband a team guy? Yeah, he's hyper competitive. What does Ricky Bobby say? You're either first or your last.

[B]

Okay, that's true. Yeah. No, he's. He likes for the social aspect.

[A]

He likes meeting people and my brother in law is a San Diego city fire captain and let's just say there's a lot of people who play pickleball in that occupation enough where you could have a very robust league.

[B]

Oh yeah, I believe it.

[A]

Yeah, it is. I hear lacrosse is taking over in like the high school sporting realm. And it seems like pickleball is just dominating.

[B]

I forget where college teams now.

[A]

I bet they do. Where was I? I was on the road and it wasn't open yet so I had to peer through the window. But I think it was had to have been traditional gym like a 24 Hour Fitness that used to be that. And they were getting ready to open up. It was just an indoor pickleball facility. But we're talking high end though. Full on locker rooms. They had to have had 40 quarts. And I would have gone in there and checked it out just because I was. This was in the pre dominate mother in law phase. So I was going to do some market research and maybe just like what kind of shoes do I need? Do I need a headband? I don't know. Of course you do. Yeah. Wristbands. You don't want the sweat to, you know, have.

[B]

Interfere with your game. Yeah. Your grip.

[A]

But I was, I was shocked. Is there enough demand pickleball to have a facility like this? And apparently the answer is yeah. Yeah, there really is. So I don't know. I guess I missed that boat. Michael, do you play pickleball? I've never played it. Do you have any friends of your age that play pickleball? No. Okay. So I think it's for older people.

[B]

Yeah, it definitely is for older people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

But I can beat you a pickleball, Michael. I'm sure that you could. That's the correct. Unfortunately, I just don't care about pickleball at all. So I'm not too concerned. I don't know if you were listening. I don't either. It was the underlying motivation for me is the only reason that got. I had full knee length American flag socks on. I had. Yeah. I was hitting the ball as hard as I could.

[B]

Oh my God. You're one of those. Yeah. Just listen. Absolutely.

[A]

Listen. I was, I was called out. I had to rise to the occasion and then made sure that that occasion never has to be risen to again.

[B]

So she bring like a pickleball paddle and ball to your house?

[A]

No, we got this stuff. I. She might have traveled with one. Actually, I just got one from the gym. The facility. They had basketball courts that they turned into pickle ball in the mornings.

[B]

So. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Yeah. No, well, he'll bring it. He. He brings the pickle ball.

[A]

I know he does. I can't believe you said he's not competitive. Like no X team guy. Not competitive. Come on.

[B]

Maybe. You know, my frame of mind is thinking about my dad's competitiveness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how it is all out. You know, I don't care if I'm 50s and I'm racing and you know, I'm on this 5k leisurely run against a bunch of 15 year olds. I'm gonna absolutely, you know, whip them at it. Right. Like it's yeah, it's yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you think you'll stay defense contractor for quite some time. You think this is the long term occupation or what else are you looking at?

[B]

I don't know. I, I mean, right now I love it, but I'm just kind of going with the flow.

[A]

Yeah. Do you put yourself out there at all as an advocate for women who have been in your situation or maybe who are in the federal government? Is this something where you want people to try to get a hold of you or is it the story of what you went through, you're hoping that that inspires them to take action? And I ask because I usually will ask guests where people can get a hold of them, but not everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wants to be gotten a hold of.

[B]

Yeah. So that's been the interesting thing about kind of putting my name and face out there is I had planned on my entire career being the opposite, being the exact opposite. So it's been a little bit weird. But at the same rate, I've had so many victims across the federal government just reach out to me and I have absolutely always said, you know, sat down with them or tried to give them whatever advice I could.

[A]

What mechanism do they reach out to you?

[B]

Various. So I've had several reach out through my attorneys who, they'll approach my attorney and say, hey, like, can I talk to her about X, Y and Z? And then they get a hold of me. More recently I have, I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram now.

[A]

Two very different platforms.

[B]

Very different.

[A]

I still am not sure what LinkedIn is, is for Instagram. I'm pretty sure is for pictures. Yes.

[B]

Or videos. Apparently.

[A]

Yes. The reels. I don't know what the LinkedIn is for. I, I, I'm on there too, but I don't know what the, the desired purpose of it is for.

[B]

Yeah, I don't, I, I don't. So no, yeah, it's, it's, it's social

[A]

media esque but with a business flavor. It has aspects of, you know. Right. You can post and share and comment, but it's business based. But is it business based? Is it just an, I don't know, whatever.

[B]

Then you hear about, you know, my kid failed at recital and I have this business lesson from it. Right.

[A]

Like that's of course, yes. That's a 9.99 course online. Yeah. Here's the thing. It's got to be two equal parties. Somebody's got to put their credit card information in.

[B]

So yeah, so yeah, no, I, so, yeah, so. And so getting messages on there and then. Yeah, being in the federal government, being a contractor, you know, people have always. People have always found a way to find me, so. But, yeah, finding me through Instagram as I kind of learn what social media really is.

[A]

What is your username? I think that's the correct word for

[B]

[e-mail] or CUDA, you can tell how often I'm on there.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think this is Rachel Dakuda. Rachel Dakuda. Okay. Yep, that makes sense. I have something for you, and I want to give this to you with the sole intent of making your husband jealous. Are you. Did you check a bag?

[B]

Yeah, I did.

[A]

Okay. So all the knives on the wall are made by Montana Knife Company, and this is part of their tactical series. I don't. He can look at this, but he can't touch, Right.

[B]

He's gonna be so mad. I know, I know.

[A]

This is the whole goal. So I think this. Let me see here. This is the War Goat.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I'll pull this thing out of here for you. Do not put this in your carry on if you have, like, a backpack. Oh, yeah. This is exactly what I wanted. See, this is for your pinky. His pinky shall never go in here. I don't. He can want, cannot, cannot touch. He can see, but not experience. Okay. Okay, so this thing is for you.

[B]

Thank you. Wow.

[A]

Yep. Okay, so it's pinky, pinky in there. Yeah. And, you know, you just, like. If I were you, I would use that in front of him for apples. I would put butter on things. Anytime you guys have a protein with your meal, I would use that. I use them to get in vicious knife fights with boxes and envelopes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's the exact one I have in my fanny pack. Oh, what do you use knife for? I'm like, envelopes. It comes with these awesome Kydex sheets, but, yeah, so they're awesome. A sponsor of the show. I'll leave you with this bad boy.

[B]

Thank you. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah. Again, I give them to guess, but this one really, I really, really want him to be upset about.

[B]

Okay. He absolutely will be.

[A]

Good. And it's custom.

[B]

Plenty of knives.

[A]

It's custom etched with the podcast logo. He could buy that knife, but he can't get it etched.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, so he might say, hey, look, I bought one. I'll trade you for that one. But the answer is no.

[B]

No, that's.

[A]

I would take it to restaurants and use it in front of him. Yeah. Just really. No pun intended. Twist the knife on.

[B]

Well, thank you. No, of course. My pleasure. So nice. Thank you for those.

[A]

And it ties in well, you know, you're still in the tactical, you know, government space. Tactical knife.

[B]

Always good to have a tactical knife around.

[A]

I, Yeah, I legitimately have one in my fanny pack. I don't get into knife fights. It's. People can get nerd out on that stuff. Like I. Knives actually scare me more than guns. I tell you what.

[B]

Really? Why?

[A]

Who? I'm not going to recommend that you do this, but if you were to go onto Google Images and look at the end state of gunshot wounds versus knife wounds, the slashing, the damage it can do over a large area. Gnarly. Okay, gnarly. Not the bullets are consequence free but oftentimes they'll plug right through. I mean not that that feels great. Again, 10 out of 10 don't recommend. Yeah, but bleeding to death after being just filleted with a knife is not the way to go. Yeah, it's not. So.

[B]

Well, I will save that Google image search.

[A]

Yeah, don't do that. Unfortunately I have, I have done that for you. The research has been done on that one. It's pretty bad. So take my word for that one.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

What do you want to leave people with? Any advice for somebody. People often forget too that men can be victims in this as well too. I was about to say for women but I'm going to say for anybody who is a victim of what we have been talking about and they don't know what to do with it. Any advice.

[B]

So my first line of advice would be get professional help. Right. You know, we talked a little bit about the non professional help that was at CIA, but finding things like, you know, the National Sexual Assault Hotline, those are professionals. Right. Give them a call, Find a good therapist, find a good attorney. Right. Those. I cannot emphasize those things enough because. And you know, I was speaking at a university a few weeks ago and they asked me a very similar question where it's, you know, you're going to have that support system but there's no guarantees that that support system isn't going to have a bad day. Right.

[A]

Yeah. We are just talking about people at the end of the day.

[B]

Yeah. And so finding those professionals in your life that you can always lean back on and can help you through whatever decision that you make in terms of how you handle, you know, this type of crime. I would say, you know, make sure you've got the professionals involved so because yeah, they're the ones that are, you can always lean on.

[A]

You need assets and allies.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, having that support base, I mean, that's. That's what's carried me through. Right. I had this very wide reaching, amazing support base that, you know, carried me on days when I just barely could get out of bed. And I'm forever grateful for them, but not everybody's got that. Yeah, you can always find a professional that'll. That'll help you. You work your way through it. So.

[A]

Yeah, it's not an easy path.

[B]

No, no. And it's not one that you end up choosing either.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you for sharing your experience about it. I think. I mean, I can't do anything to help people. It's. Trust me, like I said, my. My desired way to help people would just end up with me in prison, which my wife has told me she would like to avoid.

[B]

Yeah, we're not gonna have that.

[A]

But I think allowing people to talk about these experiences, as difficult as it may be, and letting other people. I think the most dangerous thing people can do is think they're alone or that they are going through something that nobody else has gone through and that nobody else understands.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's why I think conversations like this are so important.

[B]

Yeah. No, and thank you for having me on. You're exactly right. It's. It's the tough conversations. It's realizing you're not. You're not alone because you're not. The statistics are there. You're not.

[A]

Yeah, they don't lie on that one for sure. Well, cool. Let's get you out of here. We've been out for almost three hours anyway.

[B]

How are we. Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Holy shit.

[A]

What's the timer say, Michael? What? 250? 240, but yeah, close enough. So 250.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Wow. Awesome. Thank you. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements, or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads, go to libsynads. Com, that's l I b s y n ads com today.