The Cost War Charges Later | JP Dinnell | Ep. 457

Summary

Cleared Hot Podcast Summary

Episode: The Cost War Charges Later
Guest: JP Dinnell
Host: Andy Stumpf
Date: July 6, 2026
Length: Approx. 3 hours

Episode Overview

In episode 457 of Cleared Hot, host Andy Stumpf sits down with Navy SEAL veteran and Echelon Front instructor JP Dinnell. The conversation takes listeners deep into the unseen and long-term costs of war on individuals, families, and communities. JP reflects on his military career, reintegrating into civilian life, personal sacrifices, the role of faith and forgiveness, the power of community, and the lifelong work required to process trauma. This is an intensely personal episode about real healing, leadership, brotherhood, and the difference between price and cost when it comes to service.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Work Ethic, Structure & Balancing Family (00:19 – 04:43)

• JP describes his attempt at maintaining a hard schedule while working remotely, supporting his wife Amanda with homeschooling their daughters.
• "Some days I just have to go with it and take it." – JP (01:17)
• His daughters are excelling academically due to their chosen pace in an online program.
• Both Andy and JP reflect on the chaos that can come from stacking calls, the dehydrated life to avoid bathroom breaks, and lessons from SEAL teams about structure.

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2. Overcoming Financial Hardship and Making Hard Choices (04:43 – 16:04)

• JP recounts the financial lows after leaving the Navy: maxed-out debt, barely scraping by, and considering lucrative but lengthy contract work overseas.
• Faced with the choice between a well-paying contract and joining Echelon Front (with uncertain income), JP opts for the latter on the advice of his wife, Amanda.
• Amanda’s support shines: "Jocko and Leif will always take care of you, and tell you the truth. This is an easy answer, babe." – Amanda, relayed by JP (11:26)
• Notable is JP’s network: friends, former instructors, and their willingness to help him with travel and logistical support to pursue the Echelon Front offer.
• Early Echelon Front days were a hustle—hotel points, borrowed cars, couch-surfing, and side gigs (delivering pizzas, selling T-shirts, teaching shooting) all played a role.

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3. Importance of Genuine Leadership and Building Trust (09:13 – 24:43)

• JP explains Jocko and Leif’s leadership style: "They want their people to win more than they want to win themselves. It's a rare thing… when that's genuine." (09:13)
• Anecdotes showcasing the value of honesty, trust, and a people-first approach in real leadership.

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4. Learning from Personal and Professional Failures (20:11 – 24:01)

• JP admits to leadership mistakes as a BUD/S instructor—overly enthusiastic discipline, not knowing his limits, and not seeking guidance.
• The need for accountability both up and down the chain: “As a good leader, you really need to be accountable to your people.” – Andy (22:11)

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5. From Operator to Instructor—Finding Purpose Post-Military (25:47 – 33:01)

• Transitioning to a strategic leadership role at Echelon Front—balancing operational demand and family needs.
• Imposter syndrome: "I was the first instructor; Dave Burke was the second. It was hard comparing myself to these guys at the beginning." – JP (26:05)
• The value of long-term thinking in growth: “Everything is in decades.” – Pete Roberts, quoted by JP (53:40)

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6. Forgiveness, Faith, and Emotional Healing (29:52 – 40:15)

• JP’s reconnection with his estranged son and the tremendous power of forgiveness from all parties.
• "Forgiveness is a sign of your maturity as a leader." – JP (30:16)
• Discussion on letting go, surrender, and how faith-based retreats helped him process trauma.
• Andy, not religious but agnostic, shares respect for faith and the importance of individualized spiritual journeys.

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7. Breaking the Silence—The Importance of Veteran Reunions (63:15 – 71:32)

• JP recounts a powerful reunion in Montana with his old SEAL platoon—many meeting for the first time in 20 years.
• The gathering provided overdue space to talk, process, and share experiences, especially around the wounds and trauma of combat years later.
• Notable quote: "You have to make it a priority with a group of guys to go sit and talk, process, heal, whatever." – JP (72:24)

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8. The Hidden Costs of War (82:49 – 88:03)

• Emotional conversation on the unexpected and far-reaching consequences of combat—broken marriages, lost time with children, and enduring pain.
• "There is a cost that will never be fully measured… because nobody talks about it. You can't measure something you don't know about." – JP (86:04)
• Andy stresses the importance of preparing new service members for these lifelong consequences—not just the glory or challenge.

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9. Healing Rituals and Brotherhood—Forging Steel, Burying Hatchets (111:03 – 120:33)

• The blacksmithing retreat in Montana served as a metaphor for healing: shaping, hammering, and transforming steel as individuals and as a team.
• The platoon makes “steak flippers” and nails, symbolically forging themselves into better, stronger people.
• They bury a branded log with hand-forged nails, “burying the hatchet” for old grievances and laying the foundation for healing and future support.
• “It's a long path. It's not just one little twist.” – JP (151:39)

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10. Ongoing Work and Application — Impact, Not Just Knowledge (121:02 – 124:46)

• Intense focus on putting knowledge into practice, not just knowing: “Knowledge isn’t power. The application of knowledge allows you to do powerful things.” – JP (122:45)
• The Echelon Front mission: “If it’s not creating impact, we don’t do it. Impact, reach, growth.” – JP (136:13)

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11. Silent Professionalism, Criticism, and Growth (123:00 – 130:00)

• Discussion on the “silent professional” versus public communication—JP defends the work Jocko and Leif do by reframing the mission as service and knowledge-sharing.
• Not all SEALs approve of public-facing leadership, but JP draws the line between ego-driven storytelling and true value-add for communities.

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12. Legacy, Mission, and Final Reflections

• JP shares his personal pillars: "Be a good Christian, be a good husband, be a good father, be a good member of Echelon Front, be a good friend." (148:46)
• Every day is about honoring those who gave the ultimate sacrifice and the teammates who continue to struggle.
• “Every time I lost sight of what my actual mission was at that point in my life, that's when I would make mistakes. So we have to have a clearly defined mission.” – JP (174:29)

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Notable Quotes, Stories & Moments

On Forgiveness and Healing

• “Forgiveness is a sign of your maturity as a leader. And when you forgive somebody, you actually have to forgive them.” – JP (30:16)
• “Being able to actually let go, your end of the tug-of-war, putting the rope down, is way different.” – Andy (30:53)

On Enduring Costs

• “The cost will last you the rest of your life… How deep those wounds go… But once you reach capacity, that's a dangerous place to be living.” – JP (119:01)

On Community and Reunion

• “The healing comes when you intentionally put in the work.” – JP (122:43)
• “You have to make it a priority with a group of guys to go sit and talk, process, heal, whatever.” – JP (72:24)

On Leadership & Service

• “The tools that I used in business… I wasn’t doing in my family, so I started doing it there and was able to restore my marriage.” – JP (74:31)
• “Leadership is hard, but leadership is also a skill set. So if we can teach people these skill sets and they can then take that knowledge and apply it, why would we not do that?” – JP (127:01)

On Legacy and Intent

• “You have to decide to put in the work every day. What type of legacy are you going to leave? Because at the end of the day, each and every one of us is leaving a legacy.” – JP (174:29)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Scheduling, Parenting, and Early Struggles: 00:19 – 10:30
• Choosing Service & Echelon Front Story: 10:30 – 16:04
• Reflections on Leadership & Mentorship: 22:11 – 36:00
• Forgiveness & Family Healing: 29:52 – 40:15
• Reuniting the Platoon & Hidden Trauma: 63:15 – 71:32
• Rituals of Healing – Blacksmithing Retreat: 111:03 – 120:33
• Long-Term Costs & Next Steps for Veterans: 86:04 – 92:00
• Reflecting on Personal Mission and Legacy: 148:46 – 174:29

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Overall Tone & Language

• Open, vulnerable, reflective; at times raw and deeply emotional.
• JP is candid about his faults, struggles, and growth. Andy adds direct, often wryly humorous insights but engages with real empathy.
• The tone is that of two veterans—experienced not only in combat, but in grappling with the aftermath and using those lessons to help others.

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Memorable Moments

• JP’s story about almost not going to the Echelon Front event due to unfounded anxieties, only for his wife’s faith and support to push him through a pivotal life decision.
• The detailed retelling of the blacksmithing—crafting, healing, and “burying the hatchet” together as a platoon.
• The shattering reality of lifelong wounds manifested in relationships and health—such as teammates with terminal cancer from burn pits.
• Real talk about “imposter syndrome” affecting even the highest performers.
• The closing, where JP credits his wife Amanda for literally saving him from a potentially catastrophic convergence of grief and divorce.

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Final Thoughts

This episode stands as a powerful meditation on leadership, healing, and the true, enduring costs of conflict. It offers rare insight into the work required to heal from trauma, the necessity of brotherhood, and the paramount importance of humility, faith, and forgiveness—at home, at work, and within oneself.

“Every time I lost sight of what my actual mission was at that point in my life, that's when I would make mistakes. We have to have a clearly defined mission.” – JP (174:29)

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Recommended For:
Anyone interested in veteran issues, leadership, healing from trauma, or personal growth. This episode is rich with practical life insight and hard-earned wisdom, blending the camaraderie of military life with spiritual and emotional truth.

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For More:

• Learn more about Echelon Front and their leadership programs.
• Find JP Dinnell’s work via his podcast and Echelon Front.
• For support with ALK-positive lung cancer, see ALKPositive.org.

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Note: Please see individual segments and timestamps for deeper dives into specific stories or lessons shared in this wide-ranging conversation.

Transcript

[JP]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun run north or south? West of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy.

[Andy]

West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

[JP]

What are they to give it to me? I mean, it's clear.

[Andy]

Hot. Copy.

[JP]

Clear.

[Andy]

Not. How much time throughout the day is your phone going bananas

[JP]

too much?

[Andy]

Is it. How do you, how do you structure your workday?

[JP]

Do you hard block yourself where you

[Andy]

do focus work at short periods of time with break intervals in between, or you just take it as it comes?

[JP]

I try to do the hard schedule with like little breaks. Like, okay, cool, I'm gonna go help Amanda with the kids or something because we, we homeschool our daughters. So me being able to go do that with them for 15, 20 minutes is fun. It's pretty dope. Which when I say help, it's just me sitting with Amanda talking with the kids because the program that we have them through, like you don't have to, it's all online based and so they go at their own pace. And they, them and their peers would have just graduated from third grade, but the girls are already doing 10th grade work, which is pretty cool.

[Andy]

It's pretty awesome.

[JP]

But to answer your question, there are days that I just have to go with it and take it. Like, I'll look at my calendar. I'm like, cool. I have four hours of calls set up back to back. Now our team is really good at trying not to do that, but sometimes if that's a client's only option, and so it's like, hey, can you push this one to start instead of at 1pm can you put it at 1:15 so I can have a 15 minute break to use the restroom, grab something, drink a snack. Because I just came off of two, one hour back to back zooms where I'm ending one at 11:59, closing it out, opening up the next zoom link and then ready for the next one

[Andy]

and just peeing cups under tables and stuff.

[JP]

No, I just like to live my life dehydrated so I don't have to use a restroom throughout the day. So.

[Andy]

See, that's the forward thinking, planning.

[JP]

That's what I'm talking about, what we used to do in the teams. And then you get out and you know, one of my buddies, Austin Little, he noticed that one time we were on a trip together actually going down to Mexico. And he just knows, he's very aware of like everything. Like his situational awareness is, is unreal. He would have been a good team guy just from just everything in his mind and mentally. And. And he's like, you don't. Unless you're not drinking a lot of water. He's like, is that by design or did you just forget?

[Andy]

First off, it's a weird comment from one dude to another. Dude, mind your business. You know, I'll drink. Why are you watching me so much?

[JP]

Well, I get a. If we weren't such good friends, I definitely would have been like, dude, mind your own business. But we're, like, really close. And. And I also know, like, Austin's heart posture is, like. He was, like, concerned. Like, hey, you're not drinking any water. And I was thinking about. I was like, man, I just think from years of just kind of being used to being dehydrated. I'm just used to it, and it doesn't affect me. I said, but here's a. Like, here's what's kind of cool about it. We. We go down to Mexico, everyone from flying, and it's hot and humid and on the bus, and everyone's, like, dying for water. I'm. I'm good. And you're in Mexico, so nobody wants to drink the water until you're at the resort and you get the bottle of water.

[Andy]

Montezuma's revenge, I believe they called it.

[JP]

Yeah, I had that in high school. We're doing missionary work down in Mexico, building houses for the homeless, and over spring break, got that. That was horrific.

[Andy]

A journey.

[JP]

We'll just say that.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

How long do you think you can work at that pace and do you enjoy it?

[JP]

So I enjoy it. How long can I work at that and how long do I want to work at that, I think, are two different things, because I love what we do at Echelon Front. Like, man, the opportunity that Jocko and Leaf gave me nine and a half years ago.

[Andy]

Has it been that long?

[JP]

It's been nine and a half years that I came actually. October. Yeah. So, yeah, October will be 10 years of the first muster that I went to, and October of 2017 was the very first muster that Jocko life did. I went there just to check it out. Jocko was like, hey, come check out what we have going on. You know, he gave me a call, and he was like, hey, we might be needing to bring on another instructor. We'd love for you to come see what we have going on. That whole story is cool. We can get into later if you want. I had another opportunity, and at the time, my wife and I were in a really bad financial spot, and I just needed. I Needed anything for work.

[Andy]

Isn't it fun to be in those spots?

[JP]

Yes.

[Andy]

And I've lived for years in those spots.

[JP]

I remember you talking about that on Jocko's podcast and in your book as well. And just from your stories, I mean. Yeah. And I think that's. It's good for people to have to, like, work through those things and really endure. And at the end of the day, that's life. I mean.

[Andy]

Yeah, it's. It's not all.

[JP]

It's going to happen. I don't care who.

[Andy]

Valleys and rainbows.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Also, if it was all magical valleys and rainbows, I don't think you could appreciate it. Unless you really.

[JP]

You wouldn't.

[Andy]

I mean, I remember legitimately when I first joined the Navy floating paper checks on a Friday to pay for groceries.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Hoping because, you know, the first would be like the second that are like a Tuesday, because we know 1st and 15th is on a Monday. You're getting paid Friday, baby. Yes. Yes.

[JP]

Many times when I was younger in the Navy and not financially responsible, I would look at my bank account and say, all right, cool, there's enough for the gas pump to authorize it. And it was calculated. I'm like, cool, this is what it's going to cost for me to fill up my tank and then I'm going to pay the overdraft fee, but I need gas until we get paid. So I was in a very similar situation like that. I have a screenshot on my phone where at the time, Amanda and I had 17 cents total and about $100,000 worth of credit card debt. And I was potentially going to go overseas and contract for 70 days, thousand dollars a day, which is life changing.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Life changing at that moment. And still even now, like, I understand how much money that is. That's. That's really good money. And I was going to be leaving on the same day that the muster started.

[Andy]

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[JP]

And you made the right call. I did. I did. And I remember talking to Jocko and telling him, because he's like, yeah, we'd love for you to come and see what Leif and I have. What. What we do at Echelon Front. He knew that. I read the book. I was listening to the podcast. You know, I read Extreme Ownership, and we'll talk about that later. It restored my marriage. So I was a believer in these principles, and I remember how they helped our task unit. And I had also applied them to business when I had gotten out, but not to my family, and then applied them to my family and got my marriage back. So I already knew, like, yes, I know these things work in business and in life. And it was. I just knew that what Jocko and Leif had created was. Was incredible. And it was just at the beginning. And so I. I called my wife and I said, hey, you know, because I told Jocko, I said, hey, man, I'm supposed to head overseas for a contracting gig, but I'd love to be there. And part of me coming out there was to sit and talk with them about possibly coming on as a first instructor, because Jocko said, hey, we're getting to the point where we're actually having to turn down gigs. We've increased our pricing. We're still having to turn them down. We want to grow this. And I said, okay. And I told him my situation, and Jocko said, well, I would never ask you to do something that would take money away from your family. And that's who Jocko is. Like, he is the most selfless person. Jocko and Leif are two of the most selfless people I've ever gotten to work, work with. They want their people to win more than they want to win themselves. It's a rare thing, and it's a rare thing, man. And with. When that's genuine, not just, yeah, playing the game, the Instagram hashtag, let your

[Andy]

people win,

[JP]

I, you know, you know, a biblical thing that I've always had my parents instill into us and believe to be true is you can see somebody. You can see who somebody is by the fruits, you know, And I know I didn't just quote the actual scripture, but the big old principle is, like, the fruits that somebody produces, that's who they are. It's not what they say and they talk about, but, like, you know, the fruits of their marriage, you know, the friends and, like, are they actually helping people? And I knew Jocko and Leif were helping people, and I knew that they would all. They've always had my back. I went through SQT with Leif, Seth Stone, and Andrew Paul. Those three men helped me become a young man.

[Andy]

You did a lot of time with them. Yes.

[JP]

I've known Leif for 24 years.

[Andy]

Well, and for people listening, they might think, I'm sure you get this one as well. Hey, I have a buddy or a brother or an uncle who is a team guy. Do you know Bob? And I've just started saying, Bob's fantastic, was a great dude. Because what I don't want to have to do is explain to people in person. The community is very small, but also very large. You only know the people that you work with, but there's a churn in the people that you work with as well. Your experiences being with those people for so long. Atypical.

[JP]

It is. It is. So I said all that to say, like, I've also been with Jocko since 2005, when he took over as our task unit commander, did our, you know, workup deployment to radi, and then I went to trade it and worked with him, and then he retired.

[Andy]

Yeah, a little bit of stuff in between that.

[JP]

Yes, a little bit. And so, like, I needed time as

[Andy]

an instructor at the center.

[JP]

We'll talk about that later. If you want to talk about a leadership failure on my part, we can dive into that. So I. I say all that say is like, I knew their intent and I know that I could trust them with anything. And. And Jocko, being Jocko, says, hey, talk to your wife, Amanda, and see what she has to say, which I also really respected because you being married and have been married before, you know how important it is to have alignment with your wife.

[Andy]

And untenable if you don't. If you extend the calendar out long enough, it's going to come crashing apart.

[JP]

And that which we will talk about later is what led me to Amanda serving me divorce papers. And so I call Amanda and I tell her the situation. And, you know, my wife is absolutely amazing. Just always been in My corner, even during times that she probably should not have because of just the man I was not being at that time. But now we're in a good spot. And I tell her the situation and she said, you know, Jocko and Leif will always take care of you and tell you the truth, because this is. This is an easy answer, babe. I said, okay. I said, I don't. I was like, but we don't have the money to get to San Diego. And she goes, you'll figure it out. I'm like, okay. And so there's more to that conversation. Obviously. Called another buddy who was never in the military, but law enforcement business, pretty successful. And I was like, hey, I just want to bounce something off of you. He goes, dude, absolutely. He's like, you should go do that. I'm like, okay. Well, there's one other problem. I had already made a commitment to go teach. To help teach long range shooting for my buddy Steve Arian, with his. His company. He's working. It was teaching long range shooting for hunters to help them be proficient and get ready for big hunts. And it was really fun. I loved it. Like, I love teaching shooting, especially long range shooting for sure. And to see, like, these guys who had never shot past 100 yards at the end of day one, like, we're having them hit steel consistently at a thousand yards, and so that confidence now to bring it back for hunting. And so I call him and I said, hey, bud, I have this opportunity, but I'm not going to be able to do the last part of the trip when we get the new group in. You know, do you have another instructor that you could. That you could call? And he goes, yeah. He goes, man. But, you know, and he's running a tight business at the time, very small. And he's like, I can get another guy. He goes, I won't be able to pay you your travel day, because I got to pay him his travel day to come up. And that's all I had budgeted. I'm like, no, don't pay me any of my travel days going there or back or whatever. I said, but thank you. And so I was already driving out to Texas from Mississippi for teaching. My. One of my best friends, Dane Heidelman and his wife Rebecca were like, hey, you can just stay with us, you know, stay with us after that and then fly to San Diego. So I was able to scrounge up enough hotel points, I'm sorry, airline points, to get. To get a flight from Dallas, Fort Worth area to San Diego booked It took. Sent the screenshot to Jocko and I'm like, I don't know where I'm gonna stay. I don't know how I'm gonna get to and from this event. But hey, I have buddies in San Diego. I can borrow a car. I can sleep on couches, man, I'll sleep. I'll sleep on the beach. Like, I just, I want to go be a part of this. And as soon as I sent that confirmation, Jocko's like, roger sending you an email, connecting with Jamie, who's helping with our operations. At the time, Jamie was just helping build the muster. Jamie Cochran helping Leif and Jocko with booking and events. And you know, started off very part time and now was a full time employee. And Jocko sends an email and says, jamie, this is jp. Danelle was with us into your bruiser. He's coming to the muster. Can you get him a hotel room with us at. At the event? I'm like, thank God. Problem solved.

[Andy]

A problem solved.

[JP]

Yeah. A. Which I'm like, cool, good. Good to go. And you know, at the time when I was teaching other shooting on the side, I had started this appare mine never settle apparel. Very small just for when I was teaching shooting. Guys wanted shirts and I'm like, okay, cool. Like, I'll do that. Well, I had enough money in the. Was it PayPal? Yeah, I had enough money in PayPal from a few shirts that had sold that I hadn't really touched yet. That I was like, oh, I can use that for my Uber because you can use PayPal to pay. I was like, cool, I can do that to that. I was like, I can at least get to the event. And then I was like, mapping it out. I'm like, oh, I could walk from the airport to downtown San Diego. Like, yes. I mean, depending on where it is. Well, I mean, it's in downtown. Like, I was like, no, I. I was walkable. I actually planned the route out. I did my route recon, like, pulled it up. I'm like, all right, cool. I'll just. Whatever I pack will be in like a big backpack or so. I'm not dragging a roller bag.

[Andy]

Walk that whole running trail that goes along the bay.

[JP]

That's what I planned on doing. Yeah, yeah, that's. I was like, all right, cool. And. And then, yeah, so I. I booked it and I went to the muster and you know, Jocko and Leif didn't know I was in this position. You know, it was great to see Leif. I hadn't seen Leif. Since Chris had been killed. That was the last time I saw Leif. And, you know, a funny story is about what we do as humans. I was really nervous seeing Leif.

[Andy]

Why?

[JP]

In my mind, I thought Leif was mad at me for no reason. Because you couldn't pin anything that you

[Andy]

thought you had done to that.

[JP]

No. Which is ridiculous. Which, as you know, I think about that, and I've shared that with other people. Those are just little whispers and lies from the devil.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Like, legitimately. I almost didn't go to San Diego to go the muster. I knew Jocko wanted me there. I thought because these little seeds have been planted of lies, that Leif was mad at me about something that maybe I had done over the years. And I'm telling you right now, Leif had given no indications of that. My last interaction with them was when Chris Kyle had been killed. And we're all together for that. Crazy. Yeah, like, crazy. Had I actually, like, held on to that and not had my wife be so encouraging? Be like. And you know what's crazy is when she said that, she said, you know, Jocko and Leif, love you, will take care of you, will always tell you the truth. Like, she said both of their names because she knew how much they meant to me in my life. And, I mean, like I said, Leif, Seth, and Andrea have been with me since I was 19 years old in SQT and really good leaders in the SEAL teams. And so anyways, go to the very first muster and meet Jamie, and she's awesome. And she's, like, running around. I'm like, hey, what can I do to help? And so I'm kind of helping out with stuff. And she goes, hey, you know, my husband's the team guy. He's gonna be here. She's like, I don't know if you know him or not. His name's Flynn. I'm like, okay, yeah. I'm not sure. And so later that day, we're down in the hotel lobby. Everyone's meeting Jocko and Lave, and they're all talking and everything. I'm just kind of like. Like, doing security. Because that was the other thing. They were supposed to have security. It fell through. I was like, hey, I can help with security. Just, I'm gonna be Jocko and Lace handlers. Like, if they need to get somewhere, Jamie, you just tell me. I'll be the guy that's like, hey, guys, I'm sorry. Get them from here to here. Just kind of watching, scanning, looking the whole time. And. And so which I was happy to be able to do that because I'm like, cool. I get to help Jocko and Leif. They let me come to this event that people paid a lot of money to come to. But I also know they wanted me to see what they did and they taught to make sure it's something that I wanted to do. But as soon as I get there, I meet Jamie. I'm like, well, she's awesome. She's super squared away. This is being run at a crazy high level. For the very first time doing something I was, I was really impressed. Go downstairs, elevator opens up. I'm like, holy crap. I give Flynn a big hug. Well, I don't know him as Flynn. I know him as Mr. Cochran. And he's like, Danelle. And Jamie's like looking. I was like, how do you guys know each other? He goes, this was instructed to know. And I'm like, kind of like wonder like, what does that mean? And she was like, oh, you're the reason he missed our wedding. So that was really cool.

[Andy]

Yeah. Maybe it was his own choices. What did these audio levels look? Not very good. Let me see.

[JP]

I'm wondering if you want to pull

[Andy]

out and check the. You're good. J.P. talking to your mic.

[JP]

And so I see Flynn.

[Andy]

Okay, totally fine. I lowered the gain a little bit. Okay. It's totally fine because it allows me on the back end to increase the volume without having background noise. So it's totally fine. I'm glad you're paying attention though. It's the first time in the history of. I mean, we're 20 minutes into it and you notice that. But it's like whatever.

[JP]

I thought it was going to be like, hey, we're not recording anything. Oh, I've done that.

[Andy]

I've done episodes with lens caps on.

[JP]

That's awesome.

[Andy]

Definitely done episodes with camera on. No audio. Audio on. No. Every expression of just total not having a checklist to follow.

[JP]

Yeah. So anyway, okay, so I see Flynn, big hug, whatever. And Jamie's like, how. How do you guys know each other? He goes, oh, this is instructor to know. This is when I was a BUDS instructor at indoc. Well, long story short, I had secured the class that weekend because I found alcohol in the student's room underage. So I secured them and did whole weekend of just inspections and beat downs and stuff like that, which.

[Andy]

Did you clear that with the headshot, of course?

[JP]

No, because it was excellent the weekend and I didn't think to do that

[Andy]

because this was well outside of the Curriculum boundaries. I'm a huge fan.

[JP]

100 outside the boundaries. And this is just one of many things as to why Jocko eventually got the call. And when Jocko shares his story as to why I got pulled from BUDS to trade at, he goes, you remember in Rambo when they called his. His officer and said, come get your guy?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

That was kind of the call that Jocko got. Like, hey, come get your guy. He's off the rails. And Jocko's like, cool. You know, he didn't say this, but I'm sure Jocko's like, I can speak jp Bring him to trade it. So Jocko pulled me over to trade it to work for him and Z and all these other guys that I've been with in the task unit to give me a sense of fulfillment of like, hey, you're going to be trained. And I remember that when I got pulled over there, Jock was like, hey, we are training seals to prepare them for war based off of the experiences that we have that you have. Like, we've got a. I was like, hell, yeah. I'm about that. Because when I was at Buzz, I was just. I was a psychopath. I was off the rails. I had no direction, which was 100% mine. I never saw it. I never got clarification, like, hey, what are my roles and responsibilities as an instructor? Like, hey, when I'm like, what are my limitations? I was psychotic, Andy.

[Andy]

Well, it's also wild that they didn't provide that for you. You know what I mean? The mechanism also needs to onboard their staff appropriately as well too.

[JP]

I'm. And I will give the program the credit. I'm sure they did. I'm telling you, I probably did not listen and. Or receive it, which we can go back and forth from a leadership aspect. I can look over from the other side and be like, hey, if you see one of your guys, like, are you. Are you not pulling them aside and saying, hey, is everything okay?

[Andy]

You have to hold yourself accountable to your people. Accountability is this term where from leaders. I see this often. They're like, oh, yeah, yeah, my people are accountable to me. Put a pin in that because we'll come back because that's kind of true. But as a good leader, you really need to be accountable to your people.

[JP]

To your people.

[Andy]

Yeah. Have you. This person who's underperforming, do they have the knowledge they need? Do they know the left and right boundaries? Do they know their authorities? Do they know the roles and responsibility?

[JP]

Have you reiterated those things to them and had the escalation of counseling conversations.

[Andy]

Totally. And yes, they are accountable to you via the leadership structure. But take it easy, buddy.

[JP]

Yeah. So one of the things that Jocko's encouraged me to do is start writing. Like not to write a book, but just to start writing. Because he's like, you have a very. And Leif has it as well. He's like, you have a very unique perspective because you were the youngest, most junior ranked guy in Tuscan Abruiser. You know, yes, he had some leadership positions, but they're always at a lower level. And now what you do at Echelon Front, I see it from a completely different angle. So I, I can bring them all together. So that's why I was saying as I was going through that, like, trust me, it was 100% my fault for the way I acted as a Buzz instructor. I got pulled for a reason. I was not doing my job properly. Was I holding the line? Yes. Was I doing what Buzz instructors should be? Yes. But was I also doing things that I should not have been doing? Absolutely. So anyways, I secure him that weekend. Flynn was supposed to fly home that weekend because him and his wife had already gotten married. But this was the ceremony with all of the family, with his family. So now Jamie's there by herself with his family. When I found that out, I felt absolutely horrible because I liked Flynn. He was a good student, he was a good officer, he was a class oic, had Flynn and I told him, I'm like, bro, if you would have just told me, hey, Instructor Danelle, I'm supposed to get married this weekend, I would have said, cool, go. But him being a good officer and he had a class, I was the

[Andy]

last thing he was going to do.

[JP]

Zero chance he's going to do that. So that was my first introduction with Jamie Cochran, who is now our chief operations officer at Echelon Front and one of our senior leadership instructors.

[Andy]

So she'll forgive you for that in a few decades?

[JP]

Well, we always joke. We used to always joke a lot back in the day. It was like, oh, we got a low paying gig that has three stops and a bus.

[Andy]

Yep.

[JP]

JP's on that one. You know, we'd always, oh, the hotel's oversold and only has handicap rooms. JP's got that one.

[Andy]

Revenge comes in so many different forms.

[JP]

It's been nine and a half years of just hookups.

[Andy]

It's not enough yet. I would say one more decade and you might be at even with her. If it's even possible to get to even with her.

[JP]

So I'm lucky. She's a very forgiving and sweet lady.

[Andy]

That's what she wants you to think.

[JP]

Well, maybe. And I believe it.

[Andy]

She's playing you like a fiddle.

[JP]

I know. Well, she's, you know, I'm very fortunate with what I do at Echelon Front because I love what I do and I know that was the original question. Yeah, I love what I do. I love interacting with clients. I love, you know, the hands on scenario based leadership training. The field training exercises that we built out. Jocko and Leif were like, hey, we've done a few of these. This is what we want to look at. This is what we want to look like. Go, go build it. And those were my parameters, which was pretty awesome to have that much trust from your leadership. And now Cody Gandy, one our leadership instructors, he's the, he's the director of experiential leadership Training. So he took that whole program over for me. He's former Marine, absolute stud, very smart, very hard worker. He's made the program so much better than when I was running it. And so to answer your question, I. At this pace, could I do another decade? Yes. Do I want to?

[Andy]

No.

[JP]

Because the last decade while it's been amazing, like absolutely amazing to be a part of this and now on the executive leadership team and, you know, trying to help grow Echelon Front from a strategic level. And I'll tell you what, I have, I have weekly calls with Leif Babin and he just pours into me every week of helping me think strategic, knowing that when I was in the SEAL teams, it's important to think strategic. But when you're in E4, E5, E6, how strategic is lunch? Yes, it's strategic.

[Andy]

Maybe if you're pushing it is the

[JP]

end of the day and, you know. Yes. And then when we got to Ramadi, they put me in a leadership position where I was the lpo, a small group out on the eastern side of Ramadi with Seth and Benny and those guys. And so I got to see a little bit more. I'd go to mission plannings and you know, everything else like that with the guys and I was helping plan out the missions. And I was our lead sniper and point man and machine gunner. So I had a little bit more. And then at trade it, you see a little bit more as well as an instructor. But I never had what Jocko had that Leif had, that Dave Burke had. Who you know, Dave Burke did 23 years in the Marine Corps as an officer Fighter pilot, top gun instructor, ran top gun school. You know, is the only guy to have ever flown and operated or flown, operated, commanded units for F16, F18, F22 and F35. I think he has like two or three master's degrees. And then, and so I was, I had a really hard time comparing myself to these guys at the beginning. You talk about imposter syndrome. Like, I'm the first instructor, Dave Burke's the second instructor. And then they brought on Flynn Cochran as an instructor for a while as well. And then a few other guys that you and I know. And now we have this massive team. I have failed in the last five years to shift towards strategic thinking to grow the company, which is hindered my team.

[Andy]

Well, you may not have been in that role though either.

[JP]

Yeah, but I should have started knowing what we teach. I should have really started like asking better questions to Jocko and Leif and Dave and all these other guys who are brilliant leaders. And so Leif, this last year has really been pouring into me to help me just think strategically and shift things that way. And so the goal is to help grow our program to grow Echelon Front. You know, we do our LDAP program. It's our leadership development alignment program, it's our long range, long range contracts with clients where instead of us just coming in for one or two things, hey, we're going to work with you for nine months, 12 months, you actually make

[Andy]

a change in an organization 100%. Like, let's get great for opening eyes to concepts, but getting the tires on the road with traction with those concepts is not going to occur in 60 to 90 minutes. No, I'm not. And I'm not discounting the keynotes. It's the extended work over time 100%.

[JP]

And so I love our LDAP program and our FTX program because when you put those two together, hands on scenario based leadership training where you're feeling the principles real time, it's incredible. And so lay's been helping me just think more strategic to grow Echelon front. Not just FTXs. It's one team, one fight. Echelon Front. Hey, what we do at Echelon Front, it's, hey, we're all working together. And so the goal is to help grow while not having to be in two to three, four different cities every week. And I love traveling because I get to meet new people, but I also love my wife and my kids.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And now I try to bring my wife and kids on trips when it makes sense. My kids Come to the musters and they help work the muster. And it's really cool they get to be around that and see those events. But it's tough, though. It is, you know, different worlds, you know. Our son Aiden is 20, and, man, you know, I just. Last January, got reconnected with my son out in California. He's 17 now, and he was 15 when we got reconnected. And the blessing there was, you know, God's grace and forgiveness is a real thing.

[Andy]

Did he reach out to you or did you reach out to him?

[JP]

His mom reached out to me and was like, hey, I'm sorry. I hope you can forgive me. I forgave you a long time ago. Hayden knows about you. He doesn't know anything about you. If you'd like to be in his life, I'm good with that. And I was so thankful, like, so thankful that she, like, gave me that opportunity. And, you know, forgiveness is a real thing.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And I. I like to say forgiveness is your sign. Forgiveness is a sign of your maturity as a leader. And when you forgive somebody, you actually have to forgive them.

[Andy]

Well, there's one step before forgiveness. You and I might not agree on this, and that's revenge.

[JP]

Well, fortunately, in this situation, there was none of that. Right. Because the kids involved in.

[Andy]

Clearly, you didn't try hard enough. It could have been towards the mother. I'm joking. It's. I'm. I'm the farthest thing from a perfect human being. And I agree with you. Being able to forgive or say you're forgiving is one thing. Being able to actually let go your end of the tug of war.

[JP]

Yes.

[Andy]

Putting the rope down is way different. I have been better at saying I have forgiven people and then plotting their demise afterwards than actually letting go of the road. It's hard to do because you want revenge. I mean, but it's not worth it. Yeah.

[JP]

So. And I know you were joking. Like, I never wanted a revenge. Was I on? Well, there are situations, but in this current situation, there was no, like, feelings of, like, revenge towards his mom. I was thankful. I was very grateful.

[Andy]

Any revenge would have stolen the opportunity she was presenting for you.

[JP]

Exactly. And that's just also not the right thing to do. And what's. What's really cool about forgiveness, it's for you. It's for you. Because if you say you forgive somebody and you don't forgive them, but you're holding on to something that is hindering who you are as a man, as a human. And so for me, especially, being strong in My faith and Jesus has forgiven me for so many things that I don't deserve forgiveness for. Who am I not to forgive somebody else? You will be forgiven at which you forgive others.

[Andy]

That's why I like using the tug of war analogy.

[JP]

I like that. Just, just let it go.

[Andy]

It tug of war takes two people.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

You always have the option of just opening your hand and letting go of the rope.

[JP]

Yeah. Well, it was really cool how God had started conditioning my heart for this moment because In February of 2022, I went to a ministry event, event called. It's through a ministry called Walking in Truth. My buddies Matt Russell and Troy Foster and Jared had started this ministry and they do these events called Pursuit for Truth. And the thing about Pursuit for Truth is it's your pursuit to get closer with the Lord. Everybody's pursuit is different. And so it's a four day or three and a half, whatever. It's Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And at the time it was only in Amarillo, Texas. And now it's like we have. They do them there, they do them in Maine, they do them in Idaho, they do some in Arizona now. But when I went, I went to that and I just surrendered all these things that I've been holding on to since childhood. High school, military deployments, failed marriages, like all, all of these things. All these things that until you actually surrender it, you're still carrying that. And I was carrying a lot. It was heavy, it was dark on the outside, everything looked good, but man, I was slowly suffocating on the inside. And I've always, like, I've always had a relationship with the Lord. I was saved at a young age. Like Jesus Christ is Lord. He's my Lord and Savior, always has been. Never turned my back on God, but I had veered off the path multiple times and by his grace, he'd always pull me back. And this was one of those moments where I was starting to veer, hadn't completely veered, but was starting to. And Pursuit for Truth got me back. And one of the things I worked through was my failure as a father with Hayden because I didn't do enough. There's so many more things I could have done to reach out to just fix that relationship, to like, I didn't apologize enough. I didn't. I didn't do enough to fix the damage that I created with his mom and his grandparents. And she did what she thought was best for him. I can never be mad at her about that. I can only be mad at myself. And so part of that Was forgiving her for those. For. For that time away from my son, but then really forgiving myself. Andy. Like, when I was able to forgive myself for all of these things, it was like, man. And also, again, my wife and I were divorced at a time, and now we're good. When I went to Pursuit, I was also able to work through to what you were saying. Like, I had forgiven Amanda for a lot of things, and I know she had forgiven me, but some of those things would still be in the back of my mind. And like Seth Stone used to always say, the devil's a liar, and he'll just plant those seeds back in there. Plant them. And for me to be able to go there and just fully let go of everything. And I was sharing this with somebody recently. I was like, when I went to Pursuit, when I was forgiving everybody and forgiving myself for all of these things, one of the other things that I did is, lord, I forgive Amanda for everything I don't know about. So if anything comes up, I don't care, because what would the devil want to bring something up that maybe had been hidden, that we had never talked about, to ruin what we have now? I don't believe any of that actually exists, but in my mind, I want. Yeah, but I wanted my heart posture to be in a position to where it would be like, oh, oh, cool, I don't care. I already forgave her about that. Well, you didn't know about it. No. I asked God to help me soften my heart so that I would forgive her for everything I didn't know about. And I did that with, like, everybody in my life. And so it was a really cool moment to where he had been conditioned in my heart. And I tried to go back to pursue as much as I can to help serve, to help other guys go. And it's just. It's an incredible ministry just to see the growth for guys of just drawing closer with the Lord and just letting go of stuff. Just, hey, let go of these things.

[Andy]

I think religion. I'm not a religious person open to religion. Faith has never landed with me, and I've always been super transparent. I would have to say I'm agnostic. I don't know. Either way, I'm not an atheist. Where I don't think. I just don't know. And I serve with some really religious people. We would talk for hours about religion, and oftentimes I'm envious of people's faith. But I can't lie and say I share the faith and maybe that just means it's not my time. What you're describing, though, people being on their own path.

[JP]

Yes.

[Andy]

As opposed to being on a regimented path and being told, well, this is the only way, and then this is how you have to do it. I think religion would be so. Not that it's not accepted. I think it would be accepted and embraced more if there was an understanding that it doesn't have to be. Follow the breadcrumbs of the person in front of you.

[JP]

No.

[Andy]

Or the larger path. You know, like you were walking in glacier the other day. There's the clearly worn path. And maybe that works for most people, but it's also okay to walk in the knee high grass if you want to.

[JP]

Yes, it is.

[Andy]

I think it would be.

[JP]

All of our walks with the Lord are going to be different. And I love the way you said that because I think that is the fear that people have that are new with their faith or maybe thinking about like, like you just said, you're like, man, I've been around people. I just haven't had my moment yet. And you know, I. I've had some buddies say the same thing. And I just. My challenge to them was, hey, just ask the Lord to have that moment and you'll know, like, it'll be an undeniable thing that you know. And I've had multiple of those throughout my life. And that's like, when it comes to my faith, like, it's. It's as strong as if somebody was to tell you you don't actually love your wife. Andy, if somebody told you you don't really love your wife, you would be mad. Like, you would.

[Andy]

Yeah, see, I don't think anybody I know would tell me that. And since I wouldn't know the person saying it, I'd be like, get away from me. Crazy person.

[JP]

Exactly. Okay, so that. Okay, so. Exactly. And I love this because even the thought of that makes you uncomfortable of like, dude. Yeah, like what? You would be like, get away from me. You're crazy.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And then if they didn't, you would start to get.

[Andy]

You would. He'll hook him. Yes.

[JP]

And hopefully they're wearing pants. So I could heel hook somebody on a gi.

[Andy]

They'd probably be wearing shoes. I think that's a tight grip. I've never tried it because I'm only two days into this.

[JP]

Yeah, your heel hook game is sick after two days, which is really frustrating and inspiring at the same time. That's my conviction. Who knows where it goes, but that's my conviction. With my faith because I've had, I've had so many moments where it was an undeniable God moment where I knew that I knew. And, and so that's why when I went to pursue, it got even deeper. Like it got even, like even more clearer, less philosophy.

[Andy]

Edmond is going to say, I don't want to speak for the organization, but it seems more self guided or a self journey with no wrong answers.

[JP]

Well, they actually say it's holy spirit led.

[Andy]

There you go.

[JP]

And each person has their own pursuit. And I love that they say that like, hey, don't compare your growth this weekend to Andy's or JP's or Matt or Steven's or Josh or Jake or Brent's. Your pursuit is your pursuit. And also when you leave here, the pursuit's not done. This is a never ending game. Like life, like business, like marriage, like jiu jitsu, like raising kids. Like you don't get to a point, you're like, cool, I'm just done. No, it's like until my last day, I will continue doing these things. And so I had been serving, had some really cool moments of just, oh man, I need to work through this. Oh, I need to work through this. And I'm super thankful because my parents instilled all these things into us as young kids. Like grew up with a really good household, really good parents, still have obviously really good parents that love all the kids that just, I mean they've been praying over us. My grandmother, who's still alive still to this day, and I remember growing up and hanging out her house, we walk out into the kitchen and she'd been awake, you know, because her and my grandfather fed all the animals and did all this stuff on the property. And she's sitting at the kitchen table reading her Bible, praying over each family member. So that's what I've seen my whole life.

[Andy]

Still alive.

[JP]

She's still alive.

[Andy]

And your mom and dad are both still alive.

[JP]

Yes. It's a, I know it's a blessing.

[Andy]

It is.

[JP]

I know it's a blessing. And my in laws are still alive. My in laws are a blessing.

[Andy]

Oh, it's amazing.

[JP]

And my grandmother is the only grandparent left. So Amanda, So that's, you know, Amanda's like, hey, you know, it's, it's her grandmother as well. You know, we've been together for so long. But you know, I was just like, okay, need to work through these things. Work through these things. I'm like, man, why is, why does forgiveness keep coming up? This is a Common theme for me. And then I get that text message and, you know, there's a wave of emotions, you know, anger and frustration and, you know, geared towards myself. And I waited for about two and a half hours before I responded. And, you know, because all these little things come up like, well, I could say this or this. And at the end of the day, what. What you say is, thank you.

[Andy]

Isn't it beautiful to take that time, though?

[JP]

Oh, that's why at Echelon Front, we teach detachment's a superpower. Because it's so hard to do.

[Andy]

I've been sucked into that rabbit hole so many very recently. Within this week, I was involved in a business situation where upon receipt of information, I believe the technical term would have been. I became furious.

[JP]

Oh, yes.

[Andy]

I had to come over and record a podcast. I didn't have to. I'm lucky enough that this is what I get to do for a living. Yes. And the guest was there waiting to go, so I did not. And I would like to believe I would not have gone completely off the top ropes. However, being honest, there is a chance I might have gone off the top ropes instead. Grab the guest. We came to the podcast talk for about three hours. The difference in my ability to be able to respond, and it was. I think it was equal parts time, but also my mind was occupied elsewhere, as opposed to just churning the ground of what it was that was making me just infuriated.

[JP]

And when you get sucked into something like that, you can't see anything else around you, so you can do a

[Andy]

lot of damage in that furious mind state that may not be depending on the things that you say. I mean, sticks and stones may break my bones and all that stuff. Words will never hurt me. Yeah, I've been pretty hurt by smoking some words.

[JP]

I've been hurt, and I've hurt people with my words.

[Andy]

Same here. And never in a moment of rational thinking, though, have I ever hurt somebody with words or tried to.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But in a moment of being furious, oh, boy.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

We were reaching deep, deep into the rucksack for the sharpest object that I could find.

[JP]

I've been there a lot of times, and you're. You're thankful as you're looking for it. It's in the wrong pouch. And by the time you get to that pouch, you've relaxed a little bit and you're like, nope, this is not the right thing to do.

[Andy]

There are so few things in life that demand an immediate response. And I would say life limit eyesight are probably the only Things in that category.

[JP]

Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, waited, like I said, two and a half hours before I responded. And I was like, thank you. You know, it's great to hear from you. You know, I've been praying for you and Hayden every day. You know, Cliff knows version. Hey, love to connect with you later tonight. And so sat on the phone with her in my office. My wife sat in there and I talked to her for about two hours. Just kind of learning about my son and all these things and, and she's like, well, hey, I'm going to tell him that we talked and you know, see if, you know, he'd like to, you know, would like to talk to you. I know he would, but just, you know, might take a few days for him to, you know, it's a lot. Be good with it. And she's also very mindful because it was the weekend of our daughter's birthday and you know, it's like, hey, let's wait a couple days. So boom. And so Amanda and I, you know, waited for the girl's birthday thing and then we told the girls and because they never knew. And the reason why we didn't tell them is at what point do you tell them when they're young? Because at that point I was like, I didn't ever know when I would be connected and I didn't want our daughters holding on to that. And once you start learning your kids personalities, okay, cool, now's the time. We could tell them, they can process it. But because of their personalities, we knew that that would be really heavy on them. It would like be very, very heavy that they have a brother that they can't see and all these things. So as you can imagine, there's a flood of emotions from the kids. Aiden was good with it and he was like, oh yeah, I knew about Hayden, Amanda and I like what he goes, yeah, I remember when I was 4, you guys talking about him.

[Andy]

Sponges, dude.

[JP]

But the fact that he was a sponge and held on to it and never said anything, which is impressive because he just knew that if we didn't talk about it to him, he's like, I'll just, I'm not going to talk about it. Which is crazy. That's how Aiden's brain works. He's a very intelligent kid, but he can just hold on to stuff and which, it's a superpower.

[Andy]

And he just pulled it out of a Rolodex from 16 years before.

[JP]

I know. Like, oh, yeah, I wish I had like, like cameras in our house. Or whatever. Because when he said that, a man and I both were like. As if you and I are saying here. We both were like, what? Yeah, what? One of our daughters just rightfully so, very upset with me and upset with Amanda and I, but mostly geared towards me. She felt like I lied to her, which was really hard to hear and receive. Our other daughter is just, you know, we have twins and she was non emotion, like just emotionless, like just very stoic about it and had a hard time receiving it.

[Andy]

Give it time.

[JP]

Yeah, well. Well, this is, you know, again, that's why I'm saying here.

[Andy]

With time, it'll start coming back.

[JP]

And Time.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Which to our point earlier, just give some things time. It'll change our angry daughter, who is angry at. She's not angry, but angry towards me. Once she flipped, it was all in awesome. All in about her brother and blah, blah. It took the other one a little. And, you know, he came out that summer, you know, so Amanda and I got to go out there, be a part of his 16th birthday. And Amanda's heart posture and all this was amazing. Just instantly like, hey, you know what? We're raising a kid together. We're going to be friends, which is the right thing to do.

[Andy]

Let's just be honest. Our better halves are. They're called that for a reason. And it is demonstrably true in both of our situations.

[JP]

Our wives, yes, we out kicked our coverage. They are way better than us as humans. But that was Amanda's like, hey, yep, we're raising a kid together. We're going to be friends. We're doing this together. And, you know, my son's mom and Amanda just connected. You know, we're in a group text, we go out there for a 16th birthday. It was awesome. I was out there for, you know, I was actually out there for. We're talking initially, and I remember telling him, I'm like, hey, bud, I'm gonna be about two and a half weeks. Yeah, I'm gonna be about 20 minutes from you and your mom. My wife's coming out with me on a work trip. I'd love to see you. If it's too much, I get it, but I would love to see you. And he said, I'd love that, dad. And I just. Bro, I was just crying.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

You know, I'm on FaceTime. Like, gosh dang it, man. Like, and I was like, cool. And, you know, we met at a bass pro shop because there's a really cool hunt, a shooting game that he wanted to show Me. And again, he doesn't know anything about me.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And so we meet there. He brought Amanda flowers, and it was awesome. And we play the shooting game, and I'm like, cool. I'm like, matching him on it. And then I just smoke them.

[Andy]

That's the move, obviously, you know.

[JP]

And he looks over and he's like, man, I'm pretty good at this game. And Amanda goes, there's a lot you're going to learn about your dad. And so we had a great day. Next day, I do my work thing. I get it. We get to go see him train Jiu Jitsu. You know, he's a good kid. Loves the Lord, serves the church, trains Jiu Jitsu. And I'm like, man, this is, you know, amazing. And Amanda and I have been very intentional about making sure we tell his mom this and everybody else. She's done a phenomenal job raising a young man. Phenomenal job.

[Andy]

It's tough when you have both parents involved. Tough enough when you have both involved. I can't imagine the solo journey of that.

[JP]

Yeah. And, you know, she has a close relationship with her parents, and her parents are awesome. And, you know, her. Her parents, his grandparents, have done a great job helping pour into him. I mean, he's a solid young man. Like, just play sports, is a good kid, good student, loves the Lord, trains Jiu Jitsu, has, like, take down.

[Andy]

Strong. Strong.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I would have expected nothing less.

[JP]

Yeah. And.

[Andy]

Okay, let's play that game with Michael.

[JP]

Counter guard pole. So we'll pause real quick. The first time watching him train Jiu Jitsu, I'm just like. And Amanda's like, he fights, trains just like you.

[Andy]

Almost like he has your genetics.

[JP]

Weird. It was so. It was so surreal, Andy, to see my son, who I hadn't seen in 15 years, training Jiu Jitsu, who has the same style.

[Andy]

So having robo, you don't have one time since we've known each other. And it was at last origin camp

[JP]

because I was avoiding it every time. I'm like, man, I get beat up all the. I get. It was for you. It was the crap out of me. I didn't beat the crap.

[Andy]

Basically, we were exchanging in guard the whole time. I was on my back and you were passing, and all the old Brazilian bastards were all just portuguesing it up. Like, what?

[JP]

Yeah, I loved it. I love you. I love your Jiu Jitsu. And you're a team guy. Your intensity, everything that you do in life. But you, man, your technical skill set on Jiu Jitsu is impressive. It's. I appreciate that.

[Andy]

I don't oftentimes, man, I feel like I'm barely surviving.

[JP]

Okay, well, you can say that, but I can tell you my perspective. And everybody in my Jiu Jitsu world is very impressed by your Jiu Jitsu. My professor, Formiga, kind of good, you know, 13 time world champion.

[Andy]

Never heard of him.

[JP]

14 time Pan American champion.

[Andy]

He's just savage.

[JP]

Unreal.

[Andy]

Savage.

[JP]

He loves your Jiu Jitsu.

[Andy]

That's good to hear.

[JP]

I'm just so. I'm just saying. And he loves your wife's Jiu Jitsu and also your wife's ability to teach Jiu Jitsu.

[Andy]

She's such a better practitioner than I am. From a depth of knowledge. Well, and you saw this in the teams, too. There's people who are. They can perform at such a high level, but then it's almost always somebody else who could teach and get somebody to that level. Seeing both in the same person is very, very rare. Where they're an ultra high performer, but they can also coach and make people better than them.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And I'd almost. I'd almost rather have the 80% practitioner, but 100% coach.

[JP]

Yes.

[Andy]

That can bring people up. Leah is just.

[JP]

Yeah, yeah. It's like Formiga. And also, you know, Victoria, one of our. She has the same ability. She. She's competing at a high level and so bum.

[Andy]

She was very closely monitoring the world's competition over the weekend.

[JP]

I know, but for her to do what she did was still incredible.

[Andy]

That's what I said. I'm like, let's not be too bummed about what's happening. She is slaying everyone except for this one person.

[JP]

Yes. Yeah. Silver is still pretty epic in the world.

[Andy]

You're gonna be just fine.

[JP]

And she's so young.

[Andy]

I know. She's got road. Yes.

[JP]

She's.

[Andy]

Don't think we're gonna escape this, though. Looking at Michael.

[JP]

Mmm.

[Andy]

Takedown or guard Pull.

[JP]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Andy]

Let your inner voice come out,

[JP]

man. I think just the way his brain works, he's probably a guard puller because he likes the technical aspect of being down there and then working his Jiu Jitsu game.

[Andy]

His guard is good, but he's a little takedown Savage. He'll fight for it. Yes. Yeah, I love take. I. I like guard for sure.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But I love fighting for takedowns.

[JP]

My man.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Which is like the perfect dangerous.

[Andy]

That's the dangerous player. It doesn't matter if you'll. Oh, my takedown failed, and I'm in guard.

[JP]

Oh, darn.

[Andy]

Until I sweep you and end up on top.

[JP]

So I wasn't completely wrong with my assessment just by looking at him, though.

[Andy]

I agree. Guard. Polar, for sure.

[JP]

Not going off of looks.

[Andy]

What are you talking about? Judging a book by its covers completely. Fine. Sometimes.

[JP]

Well, I mean, we proved that to be true on the Q and A session we recorded yesterday. That guy loses.

[Andy]

I did switch your profile picture over, by the way. It's spectacular. Zoomed in right on the guy's forehead right at the doorbell camera.

[JP]

Sweet. I appreciate that.

[Andy]

I know. I figured you would.

[JP]

Yeah. So, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at in regards to my mindset of, like, the time at Echelon Front, because, you know, I lost. I didn't say I lost, but I was limited on what I was able to do with my kids. But Amanda and I had agreement 100 from the beginning. I remember the red light that we're sitting at in south heavy Mississippi in my truck when I'm talking to Jocko Leif on the phone. And, you know, they said. I remember Jocko saying, hey, if you want to be a part of building this, we want you to. You can do as much or as little, but if you want to build this with us and be a part of this, you're going to miss a lot of things. But if we do it right, you're going to be super busy for about five years, and then you should have a team in place, and then you're going to be busy with your team for about another three years and then start pulling back and doing different things. That's literally the timeline we've hit. So Amanda and I both knew it was going to be about a decade, which, as you know from building businesses, if anybody listens to Pete Roberts, he talks about decades. Everything is in decades.

[Andy]

Nobody wants to hear that either. They want it to be.

[JP]

Well, because we live in a microwave society where you go to grab something out of the frame, the freezer, to heat it up to eat, which you shouldn't be eating those foods, but, you

[Andy]

know, you can microwave broccoli. Take it easy.

[JP]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. Not those delicious burritos. Chili burritos.

[Andy]

Just say it. I've microwaved broccoli sometimes because it comes in a microwavable plastic thing which my middle son would be disgusted at because of the microprocess plastics that I'm absorbing.

[JP]

Yeah. But you know, think about, okay, how many times have you grabbed something and you look at it and you're used to everything. Like 90 seconds is done and you look at it and it says, microwave for five minutes, rotate halfway through. People get irritated about that. Yeah. Because that's just what we're used to. So now you're trying to tell somebody, hey, it's going to take a decade to build a business or to see some major transitions and changes in your life. That's hard. That's hard for people to actually think about and see it, let alone have that ability to, to maintain a 10 year or to create a 10 year vision and then maintain a 10 year vision. And that's what I was saying, like why Leif and Jocko have been pouring into me because I didn't do that soon enough. And they're helping me just catch up. They're helping me shorten that gap. Now, as you know, with time. We can't do anything with time other than make the most of it. I can't pause it, I can't speed it up, I can't slow it down. I can't reverse it. Okay, cool. This is the time I have now. I'm going to be intentional with it. I was very intentional with helping build Ashwan Front, get my family out of that financial spot. You know, get to the point where I had money in savings. Get to the point where, cool, we have money in savings now. We can invest, we can invest, we can invest, we can invest. Cool. We're also saving and investing. We want to buy a house. Cool. We can buy a house. You know, and there are some things like, you know, hey, we're getting ready to buy a house. Hey, there's an opportunity to invest in a jockey fuel friends and family. Do you want to do this? It's like,

[Andy]

yes, house can wait.

[JP]

And that's the choice that we made, which was a strategic.

[Andy]

Beautiful.

[JP]

You have that choice though, man. Like I said, God's grace has been amazing because like nine and a half years ago wasn't happening. Jocko and Leif also didn't know when I first came on board Echelon Front, I was delivering pizzas to help make ends meet for my family. Going door to door in our neighborhood asking if people wanted their address spray painted on the curb. In front of their house. So in case they had to call 911, it could be easily identified by first responders.

[Andy]

Actually, a very good sales pitch.

[JP]

Yeah, I'm not bad at sales.

[Andy]

You got to make it pressing. It has to be a pressing problem.

[JP]

There's an emotional connection to your need.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And so that's why I'm like, yep, cool. So I knocked that out. I was teaching people shooting. I was sighting in people's hunting rifles on the side. And then my buddy Jared up in the Nashville area, just an incredible human, he actually built me my first long range rifle that I still have, my 6.5 Creedmore. That just isn't just laser beams. Yep. And he was. He didn't need the help, but he knew I was in a position because I just made a comment about work, and he was just like, hey, bud, I could use some help on these jobs. And so I was driving from South Haven to Nashville area, which is three and a half hours on a Wednesday morning, waking up at three, getting there by, you know, 6:37. And I would do construction with him all day long, Sleep in his attic at his house, do it again on Thursday, do it again on Friday, drive all the way back to South Haven, Mississippi, and then deliver pizzas. And then I asked my buddy Lee, who owned the Marcos pizza in South Haven, if I could stay a few hours late to help close down the kitchen. And he was like, no, bud, we're good. I got people do it. And I was like, I could use the extra hours. Think about this. An extra two hours at minimum wage in Mississippi. Yeah. But I was also doing that because I wanted him to know I appreciated him letting me deliver pizzas because that was all those little things. And then selling the never settle T shirts was getting me where I needed to be. One of my best friends, Brian Arnold, who is a detective up in Louisville, Kentucky, he actually started the air unit for Louisville pd.

[Andy]

He.

[JP]

I met one of his buddies one time. I was up there for a trip, and his neighbor had a mobile ATM business. And I was just like. Because at the time, my buddy Brian, you know, he lived in a beautiful neighborhood. His. His wife was very successful. Everybody in the neighborhood was ultra successful. And we're all hanging around, around a fire, talking, and I'm just, hey, what do you do? What do you do? What do you do? I'm like, if people live in these multimillion dollar homes, I just want to know, like, what do you do? What have you done with your life? Because I like learning from People. Yeah. And one of the guys is like, well, his name is Chris. He's like, yeah. You know, you probably, you know, laugh about it, but, you know, me and my brother, we own a mobile ATM business. I was like, interesting.

[Andy]

Probably Slays.

[JP]

Yeah. Yes. He goes, well, you know, the banking thing got deregulated, so me and my brother went out to this conference in Nevada. We learned about it, and we just started out. And I was like, man, that's awesome. I was like, anybody can do that, right? He goes, yeah. He was like, if you want to do that, I could help you get set up with our system. And I was like, I want to do that. He's like, man, I have an old ATM down in my basement that. I mean, it works, but it's not a new one. He goes, we have all. We have all these really nice new ones that we use the systems. And he goes, you know, I handle this side of the business. My brother does the processing side. So when somebody pulls the money out, we get the money from their bank. We then transfer the money back to your bank, and, you know, that's how it all works. I'm like, all right. And then we just. We take a little bit off of each transition from both sides. I was like, man, that's. That's really cool. Okay. He's like, man, I give it to you for, like, $500. I was like, I think I have $500 again, just. I want to try to make something work for my family.

[Andy]

Yeah, man.

[JP]

And so I also had a mobile ATM business at one point where I would go to different concerts and venues and MMA fight shows, and I would pull this ATM out of the back of my truck, put it on a dolly, had this whole setup and everything. I had. Had gone to the bank and got a signature loan to stuff it full of the cash. Yes. I mean, yep, absolutely. And got a little signature loan. And, you know, just started doing that. And I would go to different venues and just set up the ATM there. There's a few times I. Here's a crazy. I would walk in. I'm like, hey, do you guys know where the ATM is supposed to be set up? And they're like, oh, I didn't. There's ATMs down there. I'm like, cool, thank you. I'd go down there, I'd unplug the other ATMs, put bags over the other ones that said out of order, plug mine in, and. Yeah, that's what I do. And I. I would. I was doing that all the Time. And then I'm. So then I'm doing that and then setting up a table to sell shirts. And I mean, I. That got us through all of these moments of just like, all right, I would selling T shirts. I'm like, cool, this is a truck payment. This is our rent. Here's grocery. And I was putting them in different pockets and so they're like, all right, cool, this is. Now we can buy more shirts and we get more stuff printed and, and. And then I was like taking all the profits from the ATM service fees and just stacking them up and then I was able to repay back that, the signature loan and then have my own little bank that I cash. Yeah. And just working it from there. And man, it was crazy. My buddy Dylan Davison, who's like my little brother, he actually now teaches at Sig Academy as an instructor there. He worked at Shaws for a while as well. Funny story, I taught him how to shoot and then got him a job at Shaws as a groundskeeper. And then he worked his way up to.

[Andy]

They got really good shots that have been groundskeepers at Shaws.

[JP]

Yeah. Well, that's Dylan Davison. He started on my buddy Mike's farm in Mississippi, me teaching him how to hold the gun properly and shoot. And then groundskeeper worked his way up teaching. And now he's one of the lead instructors at Sig Academy.

[Andy]

That's awesome.

[JP]

But he was always with me. He would go to all of these things to help me because he was just trying to help my family. And I've been so blessed to have those people in my life. And so the work that I now do at Echelon Front, I like keeping that pace. And the reason why I shared all these things is like my parents taught us, hey, if God has given you an opportunity, you give it everything you have. Like, you don't have to be the smartest or the most gifted, but you better outwork everybody. And that's what I saw firsthand from both of my parents is they outworked everybody all the time. Not because of ego, but because it's the right thing to do. And it's the same thing with my sister, my brother Amanda, same way. My brother in law, Brian, he's the same way. Like, so that's just. I like to work, work, work, work, work. And so I've done that for 10 years to build this, made different investments to. To try to build these things. But I also, you know, knew. And the reason why I made these other investments and I've tried To do other things on the side is. I know there needs to be a point where I throttle back.

[Andy]

I was going to ask you, are you as good at taking downtime as you are working hard? Because I struggle with this.

[JP]

Not right now. I'm trying to get better. And I would like for us to talk about later when the time's right. But this last weekend, I was able to do that with. With my old platoon, Delta platoon from TU Bruiser. It was the first time in 20 years.

[Andy]

Let's hop into it, because I was going to ask you what brought you up to Montana. And honestly, when you were talking about forgiveness, I mean, that ties directly into, I would say, from the outside, events like this, what you guys were doing as well. There's an aspect of coming together, reconnecting, but there's an aspect of forgiveness as well, too.

[JP]

Oh, yeah. All right. While we're doing this. Yeah, it's still fresh, and we'll explain what it was. If that's an easy entry. Yeah. And I'll just put this out. Just. I'm still processing stuff, and maybe this will also be a part of my healing as well as we talk through this together. Like, you've always. You've done that for a lot of guys in the teams and help them navigate stuff because you've had to navigate hard things. But so what we did. And Wes Baldwin, who was our medic, was the one who put it together, and he was the one that led the charge and said, we've got to get together.

[Andy]

How'd you guys land on Montana?

[JP]

So when Wes got out of the military, he lived in Bozeman, Montana, for a while. And it's a beautiful area.

[Andy]

It's phenomenal.

[JP]

Amazing area. And he also had some friends there, and he also had a relationship with a blacksmith, and he wanted us to go do some blacksmithing one day, and I'll get into that reason a little bit later. So it was that. And then Doug Wallace, who was our lpo, he lives in the Coeur d', Alene, Idaho area and is familiar with Montana, is like, no, this is a beautiful area. And then our platoon chief, Del Forin, was, like, trying to help. And so we're trying to get all the guys together. They picked the dates, and, you know, at first they're like, I don't know, there might be three or four of us that show up, but, hey, that's. That's progression. That's growth. Like, let's get. We, as a platoon never sat down after Ramadi and talked about Ramadi was

[Andy]

that intentional or accidental?

[JP]

100 accidental, because guys just kind of started going their own ways. Like, hey, you know, you're back in a platoon and you probably have your

[Andy]

orders of where you're going to go next before you replay back home. Yeah. You're already looking at what's next on the horizon.

[JP]

Yep, 100%. And, you know, and they also. One of the things. And it pissed off our platoon, like, guys were furious with the leadership. Not Jocko, not Seth, but the command leadership. Because when we came back from Ramadi, they're. And I understand why they did it, but I don't think they understand the damage it did to us. And had they known that or had one guy, like, voiced that, I'm willing to bet they wouldn't. But what year was it? 2006. So after he came back from Marty, 2006, it was early.

[Andy]

I don't think they had figured it out yet.

[JP]

No, they didn't. Well, this. They don't understand the damage that it created to our platoon. And I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just sharing this so that our listeners can be aware of these things. They had the idea of, like, let's break up all the experience instead of keeping those guys together, which. That holds water.

[Andy]

Ish. Yes.

[JP]

Yeah, it sounds great.

[Andy]

From a rack and stack Excel spreadsheet, where you're looking at inexperience versus experience, and how do we titrate this to make it the most equal?

[JP]

Yep.

[Andy]

I can understand that. But I also understand deeply what you're saying as well, too. By fracturing those people that had that shared experience and not letting them work through that together. Yeah.

[JP]

And when you have leaders that you respect and you look up to at your command, say that it makes sense to everybody, and guys are like, okay, now, guys weren't happy.

[Andy]

But.

[JP]

But you're in the military, in the SEAL teams, it's Roger that. You know, unless it's going to be something detrimental, the response is okay, roger that, sir. Like hell, yeah. Cool. I'll do whatever you need me to go do. So they completely fractured our platoon, and they did the same thing to Charlie Platoon. And I can only speak on behalf of Delta Platoon, but I'm willing to bet it had very similar effects to Charlie Platoon by not being together and not being able to, hey, let's talk about the. This. Let's work through this. So the. For the first time in 20 years, we were able to get together and just sit and talk. And so flew into Bozeman on Thursday, was able To. I. I flew in a little bit early. One of my. My buddies, Lance, who owns D Construction, he's one of our clients at Echelon Front. He lives here most of the year,

[Andy]

man, by the way.

[JP]

Yeah, yeah, clearly. His. His company's based out of Loomis, California, where in the area that I grew up in. So him and his wife were out here, had lunch with them. It was awesome. Talk business and just life and faith and stuff like that. And then hung around until Benny flew in and went and picked up Benny. And then we went by Costco and grabbed some stuff. And Doug had done a big grocery beer run as well. Food and beer, whatnot.

[Andy]

Did you put Benny in on the cart? The little section where the feet like the little child section, for those of you who haven't heard. Well, actually, you probably all heard the Friday at this point. Benny's a little weak. It's four six.

[JP]

He is not four six. He's five' eight. And I will fight you. And I know you'll. He'll hook me five six, tops. No, dude. Okay, I know what you're doing. I'm not playing into it right now. So we.

[Andy]

One of my favorite people. He's awesome.

[JP]

One of the most talented.

[Andy]

Yes.

[JP]

Individuals in this.

[Andy]

Technically and tactically proficient.

[JP]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. You know, he was a big part of pouring into me as a sniper. You know, him and him and Doug and. And Ricky Smurf. You know, Ricky and those guys, like, really helped me become who I was as a sniper. You know, obviously Chris. Kyle as well. But Chris was in Charlie Platoon. These were my Delta platoon. Yes, they were your boys. And Benny was, you know, is still one of my best friends, but in the teens, was absolutely my best friend. Him and Wes were just. The three of us were just so tight. And so anyways, just seeing Benny, it was just like. Like walking. I'm just like, man, give him a big hug. And, you know, we do our thing. We get there and just walking into the house and all the guys. So Doug found this place in Clyde park, beautiful area about 50 minutes northeast of Bozeman.

[Andy]

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[JP]

Yeah, I had two big houses, you know, with enough, you know, I had 18 beds for the guys and little bunk style, but it's like, who cares, man?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Big living room area, fire pit, Traeger Grill, beautiful kitchen, and just a view of, like, everything. It was on a hill. It was just. All the guys are like, man, this is amazing. But of course, typical team guy fashion, guys are like, Doug, like, you couldn't have found us a nicer place. What's up with this crap pole?

[Andy]

Where's the rest of the mountain range? There's no snow covered peaks, you piece of.

[JP]

Yeah, those elk are really annoying to look at right now. Like, just like, it was just amazing and it was really cool, like, giving every, you know, giving all the guys, like, hugs and just, like, just, just embracing that. And, you know, I was just kind of watching all the guys and, you know, I said this later, but I'll put it in right now, man. I was talking with the guys and I felt really guilty because as guys were, like, processing through stuff, I realized I had already done that when I went to pursuit. And so when I showed up, I was a little anxious for sure, but, like, healthy. But the level of anxiety on all of these other guys was really hard to see because I love these guys and I care. And you could see it that, you know, guys were happy to be there. And you could see guys kind of starting to, like, settle into it. Posture change and, you know, instead of guys just like, kind of sitting with their backs to stuff or whatever, like guys getting a little closer to each other and like, all right, cool, let me crack open a beer and. Or let me grab a protein shake or, you know, whatever. You know, guys are starting to relax a little bit and, oh, there's some fruit out. Let's eat some fruit. And you know, like, Doug had this like, like, like little board set up, like, with meat and cheese and stuff like that.

[Andy]

It's called a charcuterie.

[JP]

Charcuterie board. You know, and so, you know, guys were just kind of like, just chilling and hanging out and it was cool. And we're just kind of like, do we want to grow here? What do we want to do? Everything was just kind of open. Hey, who cares?

[Andy]

So think about what you just described, too. If you were to ask a group of people who was maybe peripheral. Peripherally aware of what the SEAL community is and what they had done, or your task unit bruiser, and you would have asked them to pick a word to describe the. We'll call it the vibe of you guys having a reunion. I don't think they would pick the word anxious. Yes. It's not the community that would most likely be associated with that. Yeah. And I think that there's something there, and it goes to the price and cost of what it is that they asked you guys to do.

[JP]

Yeah. Beautifully broken down and. And all of us think that same thing about ourselves and each other. But I was able to see it a little bit different than everybody else initially, I think, because I had already gone through those things. And also I was talking with Matt Hasby about this because I, you know, I started calling other guys after this event. I'm like, hey, go do this. Like, you have to get your guys together, you know, your core group. And you know, I, I didn't spend a lot of time in the SEAL teams. Like nothing compared to you and all those other guys than you.

[Andy]

You did 12, right? Yeah, yeah, I did 17. I didn't do that much more.

[JP]

Yeah, but you had multiple deployments. I only had three. No, but the reason why I'm saying this, the whole comparison is what, the ultimate thief of joy.

[Andy]

Correct.

[JP]

I know. The reason why I'm saying that is I had that one core group though. Yeah, you know, I know. Other guys have had multiple core groups.

[Andy]

Yeah. And 24 month cycles, man.

[JP]

Yeah, it's crazy. Guys need to make that a priority though. Like, you have to make it a priority with a group of guys to go sit and talk, process, heal, grow, whatever. Because of what I do at Echelon Front and that's the way that Matt and I were talking, he's like, what, I mean, like, what, what do you think was the difference between your head state going in there? Matt has be always asked very good questions. Like, very like, makes you want to think. And he's genuinely asking questions to, to grow as well. And I said, matt, what we do at Echelon Front helps people. We have. There is an undeniable value behind what we do at Echelon Front. Not all of these guys have that.

[Andy]

I will add to that what you guys do at Echelon Front is awesome. But you personally, just listening to you talk, have invested in doing a lot of work on yourself that helped get you there as well. So the Echelon piece is no, nothing to say about that other than amazing things. But don't discount the work you have also put in as a person.

[JP]

I appreciate that. And that was also one of the things like Matt and I talked about. I said, man, I've been working on this stuff for four years knowing. And I was talking to a friend recently. Their marriage isn't the best and there's some trauma from the spouse and it's like, hey, until that person is put in a position that facilitates surrender and growth and healing, they're never going to do it unless they hit rock bottom and then seek it themselves. I was fortunate because, hey, when I hit rock bottom, when my Wife served me divorce papers, and I was just a complete dumpster fire. I had somebody in my life, a jiu jitsu coach, who looked me in the eyes and said, when are you going to get your shit together and start taking responsibility for your life? At the same time, I had started reading Extreme Ownership. Those were my two things. That was like, yep, I needed to hear that. Oh, here's the tools. The tools that I use in business to do pretty well in sales at a financial company with no background and no experience to do that. I wasn't doing it in my family, so I started doing it there and was able to restore my marriage.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Because my wife's amazing and forgave me. And we worked through it together. But to your point is we had to work to get our marriage back. I've had to work to get my health back. I've had to work to get my finances back. And everything ebbs and flows. There's been times, good financial times, bad financial times, good health times, bad health times, good marriage, bad marriage.

[Andy]

Don't forget, growth is just a person as well. I mean, you're reinvesting in yourself and trying to constantly become a better version of yourself. That. That is not an easy road either.

[JP]

No, it's not. Because you have to look at the

[Andy]

mirror every day, very reflective, and be

[JP]

like, suck, I don't like what I see.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And now what you can do is you can turn off the light and not look at the mirror, or you can say, I don't like what I see. What am I going to do about it? And that's also I love what we teach at Echelon. Front, we show you the mirror. Hey, this is who you are as a leader. Here's your strengths, your weaknesses. Here's what to do to grow better and stronger, to have more impact, more value, you know, And. And so to see the guy starting to kind of just relax, that was really cool. We went to dinner. We're like, yeah, let's just go to dinner. I found a dinner place. You know, I just. I love, like, planning, logistics, everything. My cool. Found a place. They're open. Send to the group. Hey, I'm lead vehicle. Follow me. You know, it was really cool, like, guys getting back into that routine.

[Andy]

Get the riggers, tape out, tape the vehicle door.

[JP]

So take it easy. Second, I know we didn't go that level, but it was really cool because, like, we're getting ready to go. And somebody said, who's got point? And Dave Garcia goes, JP's got point. He's our lead driver. And it was. It was funny. Like, the way we sat in the vehicles was natural, the way we used to sit in the platoon. And it was just.

[Andy]

I know. Just said, you fall right back into it.

[JP]

I'm driving. Benny's next to me. Because guess what? When I drove, Benny was my nav. Yeah. And then Smurf and Doug were in the back seat, and then the other vehicles were all set up like that. It was really cool. I wonder how many of the guy. That just occurred to me as I was, like, visualizing our vehicle layout. Like, yeah, we had a little convoy. So we go to dinner, and. Awesome. Dinner. And again, you can see guys kind of relaxing and relaxing a little bit. And, yeah, we go back to the house, hang out a little bit more. And then the next day, Dale, our platoon chief, has set up fly fishing. So six of the guys want to go fly fishing. We still had two guys that hadn't flown in yet. A group of guys. You know, we're just like. We're just gonna chill and hang out at the house. You know, typical team, guys. You know, you have something awesome, you're gonna complain about it. We're like, all right, cool. What time we rolling out? He's like, yeah, we gotta be leaving at 7. We're like, what, dude? We're up here to relax. And, you know, like, we're like, like, 7pm like, kind of. He's like, no, guys, we got to meet them. We got to get out.

[Andy]

I'm not in the military anymore.

[JP]

I have to do that. It was so funny, like. And, guys, there's. Of course. And hey, if we can give our chief a hard time. 100.

[Andy]

They'll be in the cars at 6:30. Don't worry about it.

[JP]

Yeah. And he's like. And then you realize what we're doing. He's like, all right, you know, like. So we go fly fishing. I'd never been fly fishing before. It was awesome.

[Andy]

Not the easiest thing. I haven't tried it either, but I've heard watching a River runs through it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be able to do the perfect whatever.

[JP]

Which, as I learned from my guide as he, like, mother f that movie. Because he's like, that's not actually how you do it. And he was like.

[Andy]

Worked pretty well for Bradley Pitt.

[JP]

Yeah, clearly. But what. I guess fly fishing, which was intriguing to me, is considered, like, the sniper world of fishing.

[Andy]

Oh, I bet.

[JP]

For sure. Because it's very difficult, and it's a very precise Skill set.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Which all of us were like, oh, heck yeah. So we had really good guides. My guide, Evan, as we're sitting talking in the boat, I'm like, hey, where are you from? He's great guy for conversation and everything. And we're just kind of BSing or whatnot. And he's like, yeah, I grew up in Memphis. I'm like, memphis, Tennessee? He's like, yeah. I was like, I lived in South Haven, Mississippi. He's like, what? So we started talking. His sister in law was Amanda, my wife's neighbor. And they cheered together.

[Andy]

Okay. Wow.

[JP]

Crazy. Yeah, crazy. So we had a great day. So he was awesome. All three of the guys were like, really good at coaching and teaching and we'd screw something up and you talk about somebody being a master at their craft. Like, we would do something and he would be like, you didn't do this with the wrist. You didn't come all the way up. You didn't do this. Like all these like little things. And guys, throughout the day, are you getting better and better and better at casting and catching? And we all caught multiple fish.

[Andy]

That's awesome.

[JP]

Which is really cool. Which is also like. You were talking about, like the first time you and I ever went golf. Like my first golf swing, I just absolute drove it. I was like, oh, the golf's gonna be easy. All went downhill from there. So my first time fly fishing caught multiple fish.

[Andy]

You'll probably fish for six months now and then just end up throwing your pole in the water. You'll never see another.

[JP]

Because I won't get anything. But hey, but here, hey. That's a testament to like why you hire a guy.

[Andy]

Oh, they're putting you where you need to be, looking at the conditions, making sure that it's exactly what you want it to be. Yeah.

[JP]

That's amazing. So that was really cool to be able to go do that, which was a lot of healing for all of the guys to be able to like actually like work through that and just had had a really good time with these guys and man, I just really enjoyed that time on the water and. Yeah. So I gotta give Evan a shout out. If you're good with that, go for it with a hatch finders fly shop.

[Andy]

Hatch. I feel like that's somehow associated with.

[JP]

It's in Livingston, Montana.

[Andy]

Yeah, no, I mean the hatch finders. I feel like that's a fishing term or like the, the lures they make. And I know that's the flies they mag. Something like is tied into that.

[JP]

Yeah, yeah. So Evan, pull up their website. Evan Keane and Hatch Finders Fly Shop in Livingston, Montana. Incredible guide. Like this guy. Yep. Wow.

[Andy]

Look at Michael crushing things.

[JP]

Ah, Michael's the man.

[Andy]

I mean, come on, Michael, scroll down so we can see the beauty. I feel like the hatch thing has something to do with the flies.

[JP]

Is it because things are hatching on the water? Like.

[Andy]

I don't know.

[JP]

I don't know enough.

[Andy]

I don't even. I mean, I believe they're supposed to be replicating insects that land on the water. So they're. And then. Yeah, yeah, keep going, Michael.

[JP]

God,

[Andy]

you have never gotten into fly fishing. I also need another hobby. Like, I need another hole in my.

[JP]

Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, so. Yeah, that's him on the right.

[Andy]

Oh, nice.

[JP]

Yeah. And that's.

[Andy]

Yeah, not you on the left.

[JP]

Yeah, clearly. But just an awesome thing. And what was cool about what very cool Evan and the other guys did is they facilitated conversations the whole time. And then they. Because I noticed, I was like, oh, he's getting us to be talking and interacting and asking really cool questions. Not pushing anything too much. And just then also just kind of letting it be silent.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Which was cool. And we got off the water, and you could tell all the guys had a little bit of progression, a little bit of growth. Just being on the water with your guys talking. And all of a sudden, like, Benny would be like, hey, do you remember? And I'd just be in tears, laughing. I'm like, man, I haven't thought of that for 21 years. We're in our workup, and I did that stupid thing, and, like, so we're all talking, and then Smurf and I were in a boat together, and, you know, just talking about just life and just everything else. Like, that was his wife and his kid and, you know, learning about, you know, what his daughter likes and all these things. I'm like, you know, and as the day was going on, it was in. It was amazing. And, you know, Dave Garcia out there and Dale, and we had another. Another buddy out there, and with Benny as well, I'd say the other buddy. I know his name, but he's. He's a very quiet guy. So out of respect for him, you know who I'm talking about. He's just maintained a very low profile, and I respect that. Incredible team guy. Like, just a generous heart, incredible breacher, and did some other really cool stuff. And it was cool seeing guys kind of open up and just. Just. But for me, I. I started to kind of Get a little frustrated with myself because I'm like. Like, man, these are some of the closest guys I've ever had in my life. And I didn't know they were. I didn't know these things. I didn't know that so. And so was going through a really bad divorce.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Fighting for custody of his kids.

[Andy]

You and I were talking about this yesterday, walking over to the coffee shop, and obviously we can leave the specifics of anybody's issues that they're going through.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But it stuck with me when we were talking, the number of people that you could mention, mutual friends that we have, or at least somebody I didn't work with directly, but I know who they are and the. What they are working through and dealing with. Did you ever think, or could you even fathom 20 years ago, when you were in Ramadi, that two decades forward, the experiences that you guys were having there would have such profound lifelong impacts in areas not directly associated with maybe never? You know what I mean?

[JP]

It's not once.

[Andy]

And then another question that comes from that for me is, is it possible to ask people to do those things and not have that be the result?

[JP]

No, I don't think so. And I'm only giving my perspective.

[Andy]

And obviously we're talking broadly about some of the stuff that's going on. But what you were describing, A, it's not the first time I've heard it from people in our community. And B, it's not. It's gnarlier in areas of their life that people probably wouldn't connect the dots and say that those two events are connected.

[JP]

So let me just. I'll share this, and then you can kind of expand upon it as you want, or maybe it validates what we just said or it opens something else up. I looked at everybody else and thought, man, I'm the only one going through these things because I knew the impact that had on me. I mean, clearly I didn't have my son in my life for 15 years. And it's not because I did anything towards her or him. It was. I didn't know how to have a relationship. I didn't know how to communicate. I didn't know how to control my emotions and not be angry and just. Just angry. Not anger towards her, but, you know, I mean, just an angry person which robs you of life. And so, you know, just. And I saw how that affected that. Like, you know, even my first marriage, like, I didn't know how to be married. I didn't know how to, like, communicate all those Things, you know, and I. And I hurt somebody, you know, I hurt somebody who was a good person, you know, and it just. It's hard when you see the. The damage that you create in other people. And I think that's the effects of combat and war and seeing evil people do horrific things to innocent people. I've never felt bad once and I don't have any issues or any PTSD about the people I've killed overseas.

[Andy]

Same zero.

[JP]

Those are evil people. It was what was being done to other people that we were trying to protect. Yeah. When you see kids. Being used as a human shield, like, that's hard. That's really hard. And just other things that our listeners don't want to hear about and then don't need to. And they don't need to. Yeah, for sure. And again, y. And that's what we're willing to share. So you can imagine, you know, the other stuff.

[Andy]

I just worry about the cost because

[JP]

there is a cost that will never be fully measured.

[Andy]

So how do.

[JP]

And the reason why, Andy, is because nobody talks about it. You can't measure something you don't know about. You can't measure data that you are not aware of.

[Andy]

But we know it exists now. Like you saw it. We do.

[JP]

There's more awareness.

[Andy]

You saw it anecdotally, this, you know, a few days ago. How do you. How do you prepare people? Because there's the price and the cost of what we did, the price we paid. And I would do it again. Totally. It's not on the down the line. Maybe physiological damage, maybe death, psychological. All those things. The cost to me. Or one way, one part of the cost is the damage and suffering that you saw in your close friends over a period of decades. That it's like an ink blotter that goes out and touches family, extended family, kids, all of those things. And if we know that that is going to happen, I still believe that there will always be people that will volunteer to do that job.

[JP]

And we need that.

[Andy]

How do we protect them to the best of our ability?

[JP]

Well, we have to actually talk about these things, document them and come up with a plan. What do we do in the SEAL teams after every operation?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And we'd create an after action report. So we'd sit, we debrief. After action report. And what do we do with those? Hold on to them or send them out.

[Andy]

Send them out.

[JP]

We'd send them out. And why? So that other guys could learn and not disseminate wisely.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And like what we're Doing in Ramadi, like what Jocko, Leif and Seth were doing is cool. Gathering that. Sending it back to San Diego to the training command. So, hey, adapt and modify real time training so that you're prepared when you show up. We're great at doing these things for tactics, but we don't do it personal, we don't do it professionally, we don't do it with our finances. We don't do it spiritually. You know, that's going back to what we talked about. The pursuit thing, that's a big thing that churches, I think are missing. The mark on is like, all right, cool. What are your next steps now? Like, hey, you're new to faith. Here's your path. Read this book, right? Read Romans, read the book of John. Read James. Like, start there. Like, just don't. Don't start in Genesis and read the whole thing and try to process it. It. Hey, the book of Proverbs has 31 chapters. Each month has 31 or less days. Cool. One proverb per day. Like, today's the 23rd. Read Proverbs 23. Like, things like that. Like teaching people what your next steps are. That's what we do at Echelon Front. Hey, here's your next steps. And that's why we're having success there. So we've taken these lessons that we've learned in combat and training, and we apply them to business. Business. That's what we do at Echelon Front. Like, we. The lessons that we learned in combat and business. I'm sorry, combat and training. How you apply in the business. Your personal and professional lives. Learning from our lessons on the battlefield and preparing guys for the battlefield. The military is getting better, I think. And I'm saying I think because I'm not plugged into it. Same. I just. I'm so far disconnected.

[Andy]

They were getting better as I got out. So I'm going to assume and deeply hope, hope that that trend continues. Yes.

[JP]

But the things that we can do and our veterans that are listening, if you have guys that are still in, tell them that they need to be doing these things. And that's what I started doing. I called guys from Charlie Platoon, I called guys from other teams like, hey, this is what my platoon did. This is why you need to do it. And we have guys that were there that still have connections to the community so that we can start preparing these guys, like, hey, you have these deployments. This is what you need to be doing afterwards. Keep the guys together. Boom. All right, hey, facilitate these things, you know, and Find a way to serve your guys. Like Ray Baviera to help serve. I mean, you want to joke about it? Like, I was joking. I'm like, oh, cool. So you're just lazy and not doing anything. Ray. Like, I think he did, I don't know, over 20, maybe 23 years in the Navy, he was in SEAL teams. Got his master's degree while he's in, and since he's been out, he got his PhD. So he's Dr. Ray Bavier now. Works for a pretty cool organization with Space Force and also is a chaplain.

[Andy]

Real underachiever, much like Johnny Kim.

[JP]

Also training Jiu jitsu and competing in jiu jitsu and doing well. And. Yeah, but for him, his piece is a chaplain part. He's helping volunteer as a chaplain to help guys walk and navigate through these things. And so this weekend was great. You know, so we did the fishing thing on Friday. We all got together and then, you know, we. We all met in Bozeman afterwards because we were fishing close. Guys were flying in, guys were at the cabin. We all met there, had a nice big steak dinner downtown Bozeman. And then we went back to the house and it was like, all right, let's sit and talk. And so we just started sitting and talking. And Wes was really good facilitating. Doug was doing a great job just kind of guiding the conversations. And, you know, you'd start something small. Something small. And then finally our platoon chief goes, hey, you know, I have. I think it was our platoon chief. I'm pretty sure it was. What happened on the rooftop when Mikey jumped on the grenade? Like, we know he jumped on a grenade, but what happened up there? And when he said that, I recognized I had never heard the story from Benny or Doug or Mike either.

[Andy]

It was one of the people who were there.

[JP]

Yeah. So unfortunately, Mike Shirley wasn't able to make it last minute. He had some commitments on the East Coast. I guess he's done this really cool thing with Fox News to put together something for the 20 year anniversary of Mikey Mansour.

[Andy]

Awesome.

[JP]

And so for those that don't know. So Mikey Mansour Is in our PoN and. And in our deployment to Ramadi on August 2, 2006, Mark Lee was killed. He was from Charlie Platoon. He was the first Navy SEAL killed in Iraq on that same day, Ryan Jobe was wounded. Earlier in the deployment, Cowie from Delta Platoon had been wounded and sent home as well. So Cowie got the second phase instructor.

[Andy]

Meet super cool dude.

[JP]

Unreal here. Just unlike. Yes. We were both new guys Together did. That's my guy. And so CO Got wounded at the beginning of her deployment, set home. Guys got wounded throughout it, but were able to stay on deployment. August 2nd, Marcus killed. Ryan Jobe gets shot in the face by an enemy sniper. Pulled out of country. Surgery, recovery, rehab. And then on September 29, 2006, as we're getting close to go home, Mikey Monsore jumped on a grenade that was tossed up on the rooftop. It was him, Mike Torelli, Doug Wallace and Benny Olson up there. And without hesitation, Mikey jumped on top of that grenade, absorbed the majority of the blast. It blew Mike Sorelli to the right, Doug Wallace to the left. And those guys were really badly injured. And Benny was also injured from that grenade. Not as bad as those guys. So we always knew that, but we never knew the details. And.

[Andy]

Which is wild because you would think, and I would have assumed that your platoon, everybody assumed that, would have known specifically because. And again, this is from a view from the outside. A platoon in the SEAL teams is going to be 16 to 20 people. And you'd think that everybody knows everything that's going on inside of that, but often you're so disaggregate or a smaller unit. I would have assumed that anybody in Delta would have known that story. From soup to nuts.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Wow.

[JP]

So that kicked that off. And I would love for you to have Betty on your podcast for him to share the details. I think he's at a point where he could and would.

[Andy]

What do you think? One phone book or two for the seat just. Oh, it actually goes up. It goes out a little bit.

[JP]

Cool.

[Andy]

What do I do about his feet not touching the floor?

[JP]

I mean, mine aren't.

[Andy]

You're taller than he is by a substantial margin.

[JP]

Oh, I love that. Your comedy gives me a little breaks from like the heaviness of this story. So I know it's calculated and I appreciate it.

[Andy]

I would love to have him on. But my theory with all those or anybody's story is if you reach out to me, I'll 100 facilitate it, but I am not going to try to get somebody.

[JP]

Oh, no, I know. I. And I love that about you and your podcast. I love that because this isn't self serving. You do this to help other people.

[Andy]

I try. Yeah.

[JP]

Well, you do. And like all my buddies at Denver swat, like when they found out I was coming up here, my. One of my very close best friends, Jesse Rembert, former Green Beret, been on Denver swat, all of his guys, a lot of those guys come help out on the FTX's role players, they listen to your stuff all the time. They love your podcast.

[Andy]

And tell them not to arrest me because I'll be there next week for a day.

[JP]

Well, you let me know. I'm. Hey, after this. I'm connecting you and Jess here in a text if you want. The guys are like air units.

[Andy]

It.

[JP]

The guys would. I don't know but some helicopter Denver swap. Just. I'm just saying they have an amazing training facility.

[Andy]

Oh, I bet.

[JP]

I don't know if you remember how to shoot a gun. They can probably get you up to speed.

[Andy]

No, but I'm pacifist now. Just a heel hooking past.

[JP]

Just a heel hooking pacifist. Two days.

[Andy]

Give me time, I'll get better.

[JP]

But I'm saying like I know your podcast. You know my buddy Josh Stromsberger that works with us, he listens every episode. Would all the guys do. Because there's value in what you do. And the reason why I said Benny is I don't want to tell his whole story.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Because it's his story.

[Andy]

I might be the one who's best suited to tell. The totality though of what happened up there.

[JP]

It was really hard for me to hear it. Listening to Benny share the details,

[Andy]

knowing

[JP]

that I had never asked him afterwards. Hey bud, what happened? Are you okay? My best friend, I never asked him, are you okay?

[Andy]

Why do you think that is?

[JP]

I never asked. I never asked. As guilty of that as any of the guys. And I was talking with somebody about this and I, I came to this conclusion as we were just kind of going back and forth. It was self imposed limitations that I put upon myself that because I was one of the youngest and most junior ranked guys, I couldn't do that. Which is crazy to say out loud but.

[Andy]

And well, it's crazy to hear probably for people who didn't come from that community. It is not crazy to hear because I understand the headspace because I live that headspace for many years in my career as well. I was a perpetual new guy in every role that I held. So I understand this. It's a. It's almost as if it's an invisible chain link fence.

[JP]

I like being the new guy. Well, it's easy. I like the new guy mentality. As long as you're a good new guy. Yeah, it's work hard.

[Andy]

Listen, you're looking for work, you're trying to learn.

[JP]

Go above and beyond. Take care of your teammates, get the job done, take care of your leadership. Yeah, I like being A new guy.

[Andy]

First off, that mentality you just described serves new guys, medium and well done guys equally as well.

[JP]

Yes, absolutely.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

So I think. And I've been really bad in the past about this self imposed limitations, and I had put these self imposed limitations on myself of not reaching out to guys that I looked up to to ask if they were okay. I have always felt out of place my whole life, as if I'm undeserving to be around the people I'm with. I felt undeserving to be in Delta Platoon. I have felt undeserving to be a tray debt instructor. I feel undeserving at times of my wife and my family, the ministries that I'm a part of. Me and my buddy started a ministry called Jesus in Jiu Jitsu at times, you know, and helping out at Walking in Truth and the Pursuit for Truth. Events. Events felt undeserving. Undeserving. Undeserving. Echelon Front. A lot of times, just undeserving. When I look around the table of instructors and I'm like, man, these guys are just incredible humans, you know?

[Andy]

Do you still feel that way at times?

[JP]

At times it creeps in, but not as much because I identify that thought and I dismiss it because I look at the reality of my environment and, you know, Amanda was incredible at the beginning at Echelon Front, when that imposter syndrome was so super heavy. And she would tell me, jocko, and life would not bring you on board if you did not need to be here. This is not a charity.

[Andy]

Do you think that you were the only one in those rooms that felt that way?

[JP]

No.

[Andy]

What you just described is something I have battled with my entire life. You have Everywhere, at every role.

[JP]

Crazy.

[Andy]

Yep.

[JP]

Do you feel undeserving and you could

[Andy]

change the vernacular a little bit under qualified, Undeserving, uncertain. As if why I was in the

[JP]

room and I don't want you to answer this. I want you to think about it. Do you think that's why you struggle with your faith? Because you're. You may have felt undeserving of somebody's love and forgiveness?

[Andy]

I hope not.

[JP]

Because that's what a lot of people struggle with, with their faith, is they're undeserving of what Jesus did for us on the cross?

[Andy]

I don't think so.

[JP]

Okay.

[Andy]

I mean, maybe I'll think about it some more. I would hope not. I would hope that I'm not. It's almost always been in a professional capacity.

[JP]

Okay.

[Andy]

Why am I in this room. I'm not good enough to be in this room.

[JP]

The reason why I ask that is if you feel it in one area of your life, you probably feel it in others.

[Andy]

Yeah, let me noodle on it.

[JP]

Yeah. That's all I want you to. I just. It just popped in my brain and I'm like, yeah, all right. I don't know if that was a little prompting of the holy spirit to ask you that question or just. It was in my brain. Yeah, totally. But, yeah, so I. That's crazy. That's so crazy. I wish you had meta glasses on. But we have that camera that captured my reaction when you said that Michael was probably doodling.

[Andy]

So I'm sure it was the camera pointed at the ceiling.

[JP]

Yeah, I haven't been switching this whole time. Yeah, cool.

[Andy]

He's just all he's googling is an A. He's like, is there a robotic hand that can app switch?

[JP]

He's out sourcing his job. No, dude.

[Andy]

I deeply struggle with that my entire time in the teams. Post teams. Still to this day talking about my experience in the teams.

[JP]

Yeah, it's.

[Andy]

You're not alone in that.

[JP]

Yeah. And so, you know, I said something earlier. You know, we can't measure something without data and if guys aren't talking, we don't know it's existing. I assumed I was the only one who had a dumpster fire of a life. I look at Benny and I'm like, there's no way that guy's struggling. He's a legend in my eyes. There's no way Doug Wallace is struggling now. I knew from Doug and Mike Sorelli and Benny B On the rooftop, that's going to be hard. I didn't actually understand that. And, you know, for a little bit, Mike Sorelli worked at Echelon front and now he's doing his own thing, doing incredible things and just stud of a team guy, you know, Dude, I know you guys, I think, work together on some stuff and like, man, I never asked him, you know, But I'll tell you, I've always prayed for all the guys and that's always been on my heart. And you know our unnamed buddy, no way that guy could be struggling. Like the pedestal I've always had him up on because of just who he was and how he poured into me as a young guy and his experience, and then to find out he is struggling, struggling and, like, I don't care. People can judge me if they want. The amount of tears I cried this weekend was healthy because hearing those stories and just Processing and me feeling guilty and then working through my guilt with time with the Lord at night before I go to bed and reading the Bible is what I needed. And, you know, Smurf. Okay. He struggled through some stuff and, like, for me to be like, wait, what? You know, and. And. And Wes, like, I didn't ever really know he was struggling with stuff. Yeah. And then you find out he has stage four terminal lung cancer.

[Andy]

Damn.

[JP]

And he's not a smoker. And it was undetected for all of these years because every doctor's appointment he went to, it didn't show up.

[Andy]

Yeah, but he planned to screen specifically for. He didn't want to say anything, did he?

[JP]

There is no. He was trying because he knew he

[Andy]

was like, he was feeling something.

[JP]

What he's feeling is he was dying. Yeah, he was dying. And he kept going and going and going to all these different doctors and VA and everything and couldn't get an answer until. In which you could only imagine what that did to him psychologically, of the things that he wanted to do and didn't want to do anymore. I'll leave it at that. And then he finally gets to a doctor, and the doctor's asking a bunch of questions, and Weiss is like, yep. So I was it. This is what I did in the SEAL teams, all this stuff. And the guy was like, were there burn pits near you?

[Andy]

Only everywhere.

[JP]

And Wes goes right next to our building that we slept in at Camp Corregidor. The guy was like. Like, right next to it. And he's like, yep, right next to it. So the building that we lived in, Full Metal Jacket at Camp Corregidor, which was a Ford operating base on the eastern side of Ramadi, had a burn pit right next to it. And so this doctor I'm seeing if I have it, if it was in the text from west, this doctor ordered,

[Andy]

Brought to you by Brunt Workwear. Probably one of the coolest things about this brand, other than the quality and comfort right out of the box, is this. They actually let you wear the boots to work before deciding if you want to keep them. A real job site on real work days, not just walking around at your house. And if they're not right for you, you can send them back for a full refund. That is a 100% risk free trial. So Brunt sent me some omen boots, which I've talked about before. They are essentially a Chelsea boot. It's the first pair of boots I've had that didn't have laces. They were Slip on. My daughter saw me wearing them and she is in a welding program right now. So she asked me for a set of low top Brunt work boots which I got her a pair. She just recently asked me for a high top pair of the same booths. She says the same things that I do about these right out of the box, perfect fit, super comfortable. And my daughter is quite picky. Anybody who has a 17 year old daughter can attest to that. The fact that she has two pairs and specifically asked, she said this is how my daughter asked me for things. Hey dad, do you think you can get me this exact boot in this size, in this colorway and this shank and like. Yes, I think I can. I can appreciate the fact that she's that specific. This is the boot she wanted though. Again, these are no doubt the most comfortable boots I've ever worn. Comfortable right out of the box, no long painful break in period like other brands that I have experienced. I'm sure you all have too. They're built to perform whether you need them to be waterproof, safety toe, soft toe, pull on or lace up. They got you covered. And Brunt stands behind what they make. Like I said, you can wear them to work. If they're right for you, send them back. And I don't know of any other brand doing that. And that is a company that believes in their product. So right now, for a limited time, listeners are gonna get $10 off brunt when you use the code cleared hot at checkout. Just head to bruntworkwear.com use the code cleared hot and you are good to go. Brunt was tired of the workwear brands out there cutting corners. You work too hard to be stuck in uncomfortable boots that don't hold up. So they built something better. Boots that are insanely comfortable and built for any job site for a limited time. Again, listeners get $10 off Brunt when you use the code cleared hot at checkout. Just head to bruntworkware.com use the code clearedhot and you're good to go. After your order, they're gonna ask how you heard about Brunt. Do me a favor, tell element was from the show. That's all I got. Back to the show,

[JP]

man, he doesn't have it in here.

[Andy]

Were you going to try to reference this particular type of scan or something?

[JP]

Yes. Yeah, the specific. There's one test, okay. There's one test that can find it and I'm gonna take my phone off airplane mode and ask him what was the test that found this. Hopefully responds But I know he's at. He's at therapy or physical therapy right now. And so what's going on with Wes is. I was never a smoker, but I'm battling cancer from toxic exposure at Camp Corregidor in Ramadi. From the burn field next to Full Metal Jacket. It is ALK positive non small cell lung cancer.

[Andy]

Okay.

[JP]

I'm considered chronically terminal because of, as of now, there isn't yet a cure. I was diagnosed with three to six months to live without treatment. That was November of 2023. Fortunately, I responded well to treatment and could potentially live for 10 years or longer. I do scans every three months to check for progression and. And daily, twice daily. Take medication to keep the cancer suppressed. I can beat this, but need my research team to do their part. And. And I will also keep doing more. I'm trying to be the first person to beat this kind of cancer at stage four. I'm a fighter, and I need help getting at home so we can have a home base to face the battle that is still yet to come. If people want to help find a cure, go to alkpositive A L K positive.org

[Andy]

and so, Michael, write that down for the show notes, please. Yeah.

[JP]

And so that's why Wes got all the guys together, was his time is limited and as you know, cancer spreads.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And he's waiting to find out to see if it spread to his brain.

[Andy]

So I lost my mom. It's an insidious way to go, man.

[JP]

I remember you sharing that.

[Andy]

It's. It's an insidious way to go.

[JP]

So if he doesn't get back to me on. On the. On the test that does it. It's the test that they do for older people that have been smoking their whole life.

[Andy]

I bet you. And the reason I had Michael write that down is I bet you on that link somewhere, it will talk about.

[JP]

Yes.

[Andy]

Yeah. So we'll be able to find it and put it in there.

[JP]

Yeah,

[Andy]

Just scroll down. Michael, if you would prefer patience by patient. What is ALK gene? It is not thought to be inherited or passed in any way. No known causes. A Cure cures about 70, 000 people worldwide without. Okay. So we'll be able to look at this and hopefully. Hopefully be able to determine that. But.

[JP]

Yeah. Yeah. And so we all do that Friday night and we go into some deep stuff and man, all the guys were in tears listening to Benny and then listen to Doug and they. They sketched out the rooftop. Like, I took a picture of that Drawing I can show you. Which we won't share, but I can show you. Yeah. And it was.

[Andy]

I get to spend a great amount of time with.

[JP]

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

[Andy]

So.

[JP]

So you've. And I just want to. I didn't say this yesterday. I just want to say thank you. Because I know the time you spent with him talking and listening helped him.

[Andy]

We had somebody that we were sharing frustrations about at the time.

[JP]

Well, sometimes that's a great common goal.

[Andy]

Ended up getting fired.

[JP]

Well, sometimes that has to happen.

[Andy]

So we had a lot of commiseration about. Usually it would open with, can you believe this?

[JP]

This guy.

[Andy]

Dude.

[JP]

Yeah. So we. I mean, we say. I mean, there was no early nights. It was all late evenings. Early mornings. Yeah. Which limited sleep. But at the end of the day, it's like, bro, this is the time with the guys for healing, which is really, really good. And again, you know, as I'm listening to these guys, I'm like, man, I'm so thankful for what I get to do at ashlon front because I feel that I'm providing value to people. And it's a dangerous thing when you're living life and you don't feel like you're providing value anymore or you're not able to perform at the high level that you used to perform at. And that little inner dialogue starts going. And to find out that so many guys that I've talked to over the years and, you know, just deal with suicide because they get to the point where they're like, well, I'm not good at doing these things anymore. I'm not providing value. I'm not. Blah, blah, blah. And they listen to those lies, and they feel like the best thing that they could do is in their life. Well, that's a. That's a lie. That's not the best thing that it's. Man, the damage that it would create to your family and your loved ones,

[Andy]

you know, is just like the pebble theory when you. You know what I mean? It just goes.

[JP]

The ripple effect, you know, and so.

[Andy]

Which was cool.

[JP]

Like, we worked through all that stuff and kind of get to the point where guys were like, all right, man, love you guys. And, you know, very intentional hugs at the end of that. And we're all got to get to bed because the next day, Wes set up for the whole platoon for us to go do some blacksmith work and hard work, man. Unreal.

[Andy]

And most people would believe that swinging a hammer is hard. The temperature in those forges is unreal. Yes.

[JP]

Yeah. And so before we go to the blacksmith. Yeah.

[Andy]

I'm just thinking about this and talking about price versus cost and what happens when you don't talk about these long term impacts. One of my fears is, you know, So I joined pre 9 11. I joined the Navy in 96, got to my first team in 1997. I think it's fair to say post 911 the media, narrative, books, TV shows, movies, people can make of them what they want to. It can focus on a really flashy aspect of what the job could look like. Many of those things have what I'll say is a very cautionary relationship to the truth. Some of them are designed to be fiction, Some of them in the non fiction section would probably be better served to be moved over into the fiction section. But the point is, is it focuses on what can come after or the notoriety or very few things, very few events out of a totality of things that can be life changing and then the GWAT winds itself down and there's less talk about what happens 20 years later.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And you get together with a group of people that you worked with and you see that impact. If that's forgotten. I can see a world where people look at special operations and they say, you know what, I want to go test myself. And that seems like something really hard to do, which it is hard to do. But if you're going to go to a BUDS as an example, as just a crucible to test yourself and you don't realize that that occupation is designed for, for men to go and hunt down other men where they live, in their houses, in their bedrooms, you're missing what the end state of that journey is going to be. And I don't want the SEAL teams and I'm not saying it is this way, but I don't want the SEAL teams full of people that are just there to see if they can do a hard thing.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I want them to be there for people who are there for the right reason and purpose and both can exist obviously.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But if you don't talk about the consequence, it can make it seem like, oh, this is like a really hard thing that I can do and then I can move on from there. Maybe if you're not asked to go do those things for real.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But if you are, you better, you better seatbelt in for the rest of your life for this. The cost of what that does to you.

[JP]

Yes. And that that cost will last with you for the rest of your life. I believe how deep those wounds go for Me, I can speak on my behalf. And other believers. When I was able to surrender those things to the Lord, he took those away from me. He took them away. And I saw that in Ray, I saw that in Andrew Paul, I saw that in Cowie. Those guys are all believers, and over the years, they've surrendered these things to Jesus, and that's what's helped me. And again, I'm just speaking on my behalf, for sure. And there are people that are able to process and get rid of those things by talking about it like we did. Okay. What we did wasn't a religious gathering, which I don't like the word religious, because religion, a lot of religions, it's rules, right? Do this, you get this. Do this, you get this. For me, it's about relationship.

[Andy]

It's a term that's been hijacked.

[JP]

Yes, 100%. So it's that relationship aspect. But. So this was not like a ministry type of get together. Like, my buddy. My buddy PJ has a foundation called Therapeutic Recreation Group, or trg. But what Therapeutic Recreation Group does is brings veterans together and facilitates what our platoon just did. And I. I got to go on a hunt with him with my best friend, Mike Mitchell, combat infantry officer in the Marine Corps, had done some just hellacious things in combat. He shared his story on my podcast, and it was hard to hear because that's one of my best friends who I've been walking with the Lord with. His wife Emily, are very close friends with Amanda and I. And like, we have this four group, like Pastor Chris and his wife Lindy, Pastor Tyron and Betsy, Amanda and I, Mike and Emily, the four of us, right. Just really close. They've been helping all those three couples, pouring into Amanda and I, we pour it. You know, it's just all pouring into each other. And to hear my best friend share those things on my podcast was really hard. And then when we go do this thing with PJ's group, TRG, I recognize, I'm like, wow. The power of what he's doing is just bringing guys together, facilitated on a hunt that's sponsored by these amazing business people. They just want to be there to hunt and just listen, and they pay for everything. Like the. The things that TRG do, all you have to do is show up. And his PJ's requirements is combat veteran that has your stuff together. He's like, there's plenty of other great foundations doing things to help guys really heal. I don't. I want to bring guys together for a different type of healing. Like we're all right. Cool. And he does it within a radius of where all the people live so that you can build that network. It's brilliant. What I did with TRG was what we did with Delta Platoon. And. And so we have to be able to facilitate these things. And when we do those things, that's where guys will he. That's where guys will heal. That's what the teams need to be doing. Hey, guys, come back from deployment. Cool. Let them go on pre deployment leave. Bring them together. Bring them together somewhere. Let guys talk. Boom. And there needs to be a regular cadence of those things. Things. That's why PJ did what he did with trg.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And that's why Wes created this with our platoon. And Wes's big thing one of the last nights. And it was cool. Jocko flew up Sunday night just to be with the guys. Just one night with us, let us do our whole thing until he came up. And it was obviously amazing having Jocko there. And Wes's big thing was like, this doesn't die. This can't die. We have to keep getting together, checking in on guys, going and meeting with guys and. And different stuff like that. And I think, Andy, that's what will provide the healing for the cost that will come. The cost is going to come.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And here's the other thing. It will be heavier on some people than others, depending on who that person is.

[Andy]

That's what's gnarly about. I was talking with Leah last night. Just. It's.

[JP]

Right.

[Andy]

So for people who don't know, my wife is a jiu jitsu coach, among many things. She's a competitor as well. But. And she. She just pours herself into the women's community. And the trauma aspect of. I mean, God, the stats are horrible. About the percentage of women who will receive. Be on the receiving end of a traumatic event. Some things damage people, some things bruise people, some things they bounce off, like Teflon. But you could have three people exposed to the same thing and have each of those, and you can't tell.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And that's where it gets gnarly.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Because you and I could see something happen and Michael could be destroyed. That wouldn't be that hard because obviously, I mean, look who we're talking about. But, you know, it's. It's impossible to tell how much volume you have in your individual vessel before it spills over.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And that's invisible. Yeah.

[JP]

And you know, guys, even in the teams, as we say, we're all cut from the same Cloth. I know you've heard that. Oh, for sure, yeah. But, yeah, we're all cut from the same cloth, but there's different segments of that cloth and different guys have different capacities. What I've found over the years, though, is we all have our own different capacities. But once you reach capacity, that's a dangerous place to be living. And if you're holding on to stuff and not letting things go, eventually you start to spill over into the people around you. And that's why we're talking about forgiveness. Forgiveness is a huge thing that provides healing. Because when I can forgive somebody else, I take something out of my cup. Now there's more space in there. I forgive myself for something big from the past. That's a big thing that comes out of the cup. Oh. Something small pops up into my brain. Let me process that, work through it. Forgiveness, cool. That's something else. And so that's how that allows me to have the capacity as a friend, as a husband, as a father, as a human, to take care of the people around me. Because if I don't take care of myself, how could I take care of you?

[Andy]

You can't.

[JP]

If I can't take care of myself, how am I supposed to lead my wife and my kids? I can't. Would you hire a fat, out of shape personal trainer? Even if they had the knowledge, but they're not applying it to their own life.

[Andy]

No. Maybe just because I could mock them and they couldn't go anywhere because they're under contract. Yes.

[JP]

Okay. I love who you're talking to. Yes, I know, I know. As soon as I asked the question, I saw your face. I'm like, like, hold on, hold on.

[Andy]

This might be a chance for me to pour into them.

[JP]

I hate the. Okay. Yes.

[Andy]

Thought you were training me.

[JP]

Salad, salad, diet now, Uno, reverse card. But you understand what I'm saying is you might have all the knowledge. Knowledge isn't power.

[Andy]

Yeah. I don't take advice, financial advice from, like broke hobos.

[JP]

As a yes, 100. And that's why when I was hanging out with my buddy Brian Arnold around a bunch of millionaires, hey, what do you do for a living?

[Andy]

Yeah, what do you do?

[JP]

Why would I not ask those questions?

[Andy]

Get the beta from the beta.

[JP]

You know, I love working at Echelon Front. I'm working with companies all across the United States and the world. And I now have friendships with people in very senior positions and or owning companies that are doing tens of millions, hundreds of millions. One of our clients, Groundwork, started working with us 44 million a year in 2018. They're now doing 1.6 billion. Incredible.

[Andy]

I'm not good at math, but that sounds good.

[JP]

Yes. Not a mathematician, but I like that grip.

[Andy]

I think those numbers are to going in the right direction.

[JP]

Yes, absolutely. And you know, Flynn works with them, helping lead the charge. My buddy Brandon Wisdom got pulled from a company to help them grow. This guy Jeffrey, who's the number two at the company now, High school diploma help. His helped his dad build up a basement foundation repair company is now got acquired by Groundworks Growing. Like, these are guys I get to talk to and shoot a text, be like, hey, bud, what do you think about this? Hey, what about this? Hey, who do you have doing your tax taxes? Because I know your tax bracket has gone up. Like, things are a little bit different.

[Andy]

Things are a touch more complicated for your, you know, what is it? QuickBooks maybe you might have outgrown QuickBooks here a little bit.

[JP]

Yeah. And so just being able to have those different things in my life because of Echelon Front also helps me grow. And if I can grow, then I can help the people around me as well. And I think, you know, that's the healing comes when you intentionally put in the work. And I hate that that phrase, knowledge is power. It's a lie. The application of knowledge allows you to do powerful things.

[Andy]

Yeah. Knowledge is just knowledge.

[JP]

What are you going to do with it?

[Andy]

Well, if you do nothing, it's useless

[JP]

and it's a disservice to the people around you. Now, I know there are team guys that hate on Jocko and Leif for writing a book and starting this company. I. I get it. There are always going to be team guys that do that.

[Andy]

Why do you think?

[JP]

Because a silent professional. Well, well, here's the thing that was ingrained into our brain from the very start.

[Andy]

Think that those same people didn't read Men with Green Faces. I know they did the greatest documentary of all time starring Charlie Sheen. They watched it.

[JP]

Yep, 100%.

[Andy]

So if they found inspiration from a medium. But this is the thing, because people, I hear these same things too, but when I try to actually find the person, be like, like, listen, what is your actual objection? And I will say that there are different expressions of book, movie, all of those things. And I think that some of them are. They hold the. There's a difference between silent and quiet, by the way.

[JP]

Yes. There it says quiet professional, correct? No, it's silent professional. Okay.

[Andy]

Quiet would be, though. Never sing.

[JP]

Oh, no, no. Yeah. I switched That I do believe that

[Andy]

there are expressions of all those mediums that can hold true to the silent professional. And there are expressions that can't. Extreme ownership is not a war story book that is doing it is not out there in a salacious way.

[JP]

No crap. There I was knee deep in hand grenade pins.

[Andy]

Totally. So when I can try finally dial, it's like, do you have an issue with all books? Because I bet you mad men with green faces and they'll say, yep, I totally. I'm like, well, why don't you have an issue with that? Because that is somebody who is also then violating the same code that you were trying to apply to Jocko and Leif. And so if you can remove that. A lot of the times I don't want to say it's often jealousy, but sometimes it seems it is very rooted in that they did something that maybe that person didn't think that they were capable of doing, so they have to tear it down.

[JP]

I would agree with that. And I would say it is professional jealousy. It's connected there. Maybe not fully. Maybe some guys just. That's their standard, you know, I respect that if that's literally.

[Andy]

Although I better never hear a story of them trying to pick up a chick in a bar saying that they were a team guy.

[JP]

So I had a buddy who was giving it to me for what I was doing at Echelon Front, mocking me, making fun of me. Oh, riding the coattails of Jocko and LA right here.

[Andy]

You don't have to talk about me, okay?

[JP]

All those things. And I just sat and listened. I let him vent.

[Andy]

Right?

[JP]

I'm like, cool, all right, cool. You know, whatever. He's venting. That's his perspective. That's his reality. Cool, whatever. I don't agree with it. Not gonna get angry. We're not gonna fight. Like, whatever. And I just asked him, I said, you retired? Yeah. Cool. Are you just retired for the rest of your life? Are you going to get a job? No, I'm trying to get a job. Cool. So the resume that you send to this company, what are you going to put that you did for the last 20 something years?

[Andy]

What's your first bullet point?

[JP]

Oh, weird. You were a Navy seal, huh? So are you going to list all your qualifications in the SEAL teams? Don't forget awards and your awards and deployments and your unique special skill sets of leading under pressure?

[Andy]

This is what I mean. My hypocritical only goes so far with this stuff.

[JP]

I can't, you know, and so I just started Asking those questions. And there's a little bit of a tone of sarcasm for me, for sure. But he was a friend, so you. You can get away with that, with that close relationship. And by the end of it, he's like, I see what you're saying. I said, have you read Jock or Lace book? No. I said, if I send you a copy, will you read it? I don't know.

[Andy]

Maybe.

[JP]

No, no, no. Not maybe. Yes or no. Because I'm not going to waste my money because I'm not getting it from them for free. I'm going to buy it on air Amazon and send it to you. And send it to you. And he goes, yeah. And so I've done that. And like, the thing is, like, there's jealousy there. And then also, I think guys look and they don't understand. It's a. It's a. It's a lack of education. You don't understand what we're actually doing at Echelon Front. We're literally trying to help people be better leaders so that they can also go home and be a better husband, a better wife, a better. A better husband, better wife, better father, better mother. Just be a better human. Like, that's what we want at Echelon Front. We want to help people just be better versions of who they are. Because at the end of the day, leadership is hard, but leadership is also a skill set. So if we can teach people these skill sets and they can then take that knowledge and actually apply it, why would we not do that? If you. And I asked my buddy also, I was like, hey, do you teach people shooting? He goes, yeah. I'm like, why? He goes, well, people need. I'm like, oh, they need the help. It's the same thing. You're investing your time to help teach people how to shoot. And the reason why they're paying you what they pay you is because you are a Navy seal, correct? And you're very good at your job. You're very good at shooting. You're very good at teaching shooting. You're getting paid because of that skill set. We're getting paid because we have the ability to translate these lessons that we learned in combat that to business.

[Andy]

And also, by the way, there's no secret Navy SEAL leadership techniques.

[JP]

No.

[Andy]

These concepts, I truly believe, have been around since humans started fighting other humans.

[JP]

Everything we teach is in the Bible. There's nothing new under the sun.

[Andy]

That's what I'm saying. There's no. There's no curtain being pulled back to, oh, now they're gonna know.

[JP]

There's the secret Navy SEAL leadership. No, it's. There's not. And guess what? There's a lot of great, great leadership books out there that are not biblically based, that are not Navy SEAL based, that are not military based, and guess what they talk about. What? We talk about the laws of combat that we teach. Cover and move. Building relationships. Simple. All right. Communicate in a simple, clear, and concise method.

[Andy]

You were listening to my dad talk about rugby this morning, and I was connecting everything.

[JP]

I loved it. Dad's awesome. I could sit and talk with him all day. Everything he did in rugby be is what you did in the SEAL teams. What I did, what I do in

[Andy]

business, it's just small unit tactics.

[JP]

You know, you and I have talked about detachment multiple times. That's prioritize and execute. Hey, step back, look around. See what needs to be done right now. What's. What's going to have the greatest impact on the mission. And then decentralized command, empowering your people. And the big thing for cover. Move. When you're building relationships, break down the barriers of those silos, because every organization has silos.

[Andy]

Yeah, they're very. Trunks.

[JP]

Holy shit. We had a in the SEAL teams.

[Andy]

Oh, yeah.

[JP]

Even in tasking a bruiser. We were tasking a bruiser. But guess what you had in tasking a bruiser? Charlie Platoon and Delta Platoon.

[Andy]

I'm sure there wasn't any competition, though.

[JP]

Now I was Delta Platoon. And I love Leif. He's my brother. I love Matt Housby and all those guys over there. Chris and all. All those guys. Right. But, man, I'm in Delta Platoon. That's my platoon. I'm in Delta platoon. There's Squad 1. Squad 2.

[Andy]

Yep.

[JP]

I was in Squad 1. So naturally, you know, hey, Fireteam 1. Fire Team 2 within Squad 1. I'm in Fireteam 1 because I'm our point man. I'm. And so there's. There's silos in every organization. And as you know, in business, it's crazy.

[Andy]

It's walled off sometimes literally walled off.

[JP]

Walled off. And that's why I like saying breaking down, not removing.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And. And I know some people might be, like I say, breaking down because our silo is also necessary to have. Hey. Your roles and responsibilities. This division. This division. This division. Yes, absolutely. Silos keep things separated. But if in business, we have silo walls that are so big that we're not communicating. Like, if I don't know what you

[Andy]

are working on, the transfer of information, you don't have to physically go walk over and sit in somebody's desk, but be intentional.

[JP]

You know what I love and I love sharing this. When we got to Ramadi, the first thing Jocko, Leif and Seth did was they went to those soldiers and marines that owned the battle space and said, what can we do to help you guys? What can we do to help? Hey, what are you guys doing? Why are you doing it this way? How are you guys conducting operations? How can we help you? Intentionally breaking down those barriers and intentionally building relationships, which takes being default aggressive to actually go do those things, to actually talk, to pick up the phone or maybe go walk somewhere and talk. And the other, like, how am I supposed to know what my priorities are properly supposed to be if I don't understand what yours are, are? Because if we're both working on something bigger and we need to have alignment for the end state, man, I could have all my own priorities squared away. But what if my priorities are hurting yours?

[Andy]

Oh, yeah. Or you end up fighting each other accidentally.

[JP]

Yeah, yeah, big problem. And, and so just. It's crazy that there, there is that animosity, but at the end of the day, it's like, I know what we do. I know it works. I know it helps people. And going back to what you said almost two hours ago, like, I love what I do because I've seen the impact of businesses like that company, groundworks, you know, 37 million, then 48 million, or 44 million the next year, and then to now 1.7 billion, 1.6. Somewhere in there.

[Andy]

It's fantastic.

[JP]

Growth in a real man. Think how many people's lives have been changed by that, you know? And then my buddy Lance, I told you about Duarte Construction implementing these things. Like the list of clients that I could like talk about that are implementing these things is so long. But also what these things have done for me and helped my marriage and helped my family has just been incredible. It's pretty crazy. Cody Gandy, our instructor, he started off part time helping as a role player. Just, I had to have a group of guys for this field training exercise. We were running up in Michigan. Sorry, needed, like, I just needed some role players that I trusted that at this time could do exactly what I needed them to do. And then, hey, we, we grow the box eventually. But hey, first time working together, first time doing this, hey, I need guys that I trust that are smart, capable, think outside the box. One of my other best friends, Dane Heidelman, he. He came out to help as well. And you know, had these guys that were like, all right, cool. And then as the program was growing, we came to a point where it's like, hey, we probably need to bring somebody on full time. Dane was headed into a career as a pilot for the airlines, you know and, and Dane and Cody were like my two guys that were just like running with stuff and you know, offer Cody a full time position just to run the admin logistics operation side of the field training exercise came on board. And it's cool because when he shares his story at the time, he's making 500 every two weeks. It's rough. Yeah. You would talk about people working through things. 500 every two weeks doing demolition work stuff, which. Yeah. And so he come and again, I didn't know that. And this is a guy I've known his whole life. We grew up together and I didn't know he was in that position but he ran with it and he implements our stuff. Not only does he know the things, he can teach them and he implements these things and now helped to grow the company and then started with him as a junior instructor in training. You know, it's just been crazy to see all these things. Like my buddy Danny Zeim that I grew up with was a firefighter, came and started helping as again role player part time. Then comes on full time now an instructor now, but now helping lead out our first responders like geared echelon front training. We've always had that. But Danny's taking a lead on that and under Cody and so you know, us working together through that and he's doing a phenomenal job because that's his passion. He's also was on a SWAT team. And so you have a guy who's a firefighter, a SWAT operator that knows these things, can teach these things. These things, it's. It's been unreal. And so you see the growth of what we experience in combat. And I'm also sharing all this because this has helped me, this has helped me heal. And, and when you see when you can take these really dark bad things and you take the good from them, I, I think we both, both might know a guy that likes the word good. You know, I can't remember his name right now. Anyways, taking the good, even for those that are. I'm joking. Is Jocko.

[Andy]

One of my favorite memes is that's like the Rose 12 pictures. And it goes through the facial expressions.

[JP]

Oh yes. All the different facial expressions of Jacob.

[Andy]

Except it's the same picture.

[JP]

Yes, same picture. But for guys like you and I, Andy, to say, okay, cool, there's this cost. What can we take from that? What can we take and how do we actually apply it? And to see that being applied through our hands on scenario based leadership training through our LDAP program. The Muster is a two day leadership event that we do with Jocko, Leif and the whole team. Two full days of us diving deep into these things. I think when this episode comes out we'll be in San Diego.

[Andy]

How many of you guys don't know?

[JP]

20, 30, this will be, I think the 25th one is coming up in San Diego and then we'll be in Denver in October. Sweet is a two day event and it's Jocko, laf, the whole team. You know we do battlefield reviews. We have an event called called the council. We do FTXs for corporate clients. We have an individual FTX program. So like, you know Michael, if he was like, hey that sounds cool, he could come to a two day field training exercise as an individual to do it. And we have companies that send small groups of that to test it out before they do the corporate stuff.

[Andy]

Makes total sense actually.

[JP]

And then this year in November, we're launching our advanced FTX to where it's going to be a little bit longer. Longer days longer in time, deeper discussions, deeper debriefs, like real time strategic coaching with the individuals and then an action like game plan following, like hey, here's what you do to implement it. Follow on calls, getting them together. So it's just a, it's a tear up and that's for people that have been through the FTX and now we might have some little outliers like you haven't been to an FTX but you've been to three Musters. You did the Extreme Ownership Academy, which is our online leadership training program that we have. Like we have all these things that have grown at Echelon Front and the intent for us at Echelon Front, like our mission statement, core values, all the things, if we want to just wrap what we do into one thing, Impact, Reach growth is what we're doing, creating impact. If it's not creating impact, we don't do it. We want to create impact and then if we do that right, we'll reach more people. Yeah. And if we continue to reach more people and deliver impact, we will grow, the growth will come if we're delivering impact. And that's our, that's our intent at Echelon Front is to impact other people's lives. And man, it's just. It's really cool and I'm. I'm thankful. And that was probably the last gift that Seth Stone gave to me. Me. And I didn't know that until I was talking with Jocko on one of his podcasts. Like I said, Seth, Andrew and Leif were just instrumental to my life growing as a young man in the SEAL teams. Very impactful. Seth was my big brother and always took care of me, loved me, gave me a lot of really good guidance. When I'd veer off the path, he'd pull me back. He wanted me to win more than he wanted to win himself. He loved me more than he loved himself, and he did that for all of our guys. And I didn't know this, but Seth and I had reconnected. I pushed him away. I pushed all the guys away when I got out because I felt really guilty for getting out because other guys had passed away and, and were getting injured overseas and getting killed overseas. And I just kept pushing, pushing away because of that guilt that I was holding onto. A lot of negative self talk just about who I was and why I wasn't doing these things anymore. And so Seth being Seth, never stopped pursuing that relationship with me. And we got reconnected and I realized how much he did love me and care about me. And what I didn't know is Seth had reached out to Jocko around the same time I was reaching out to Jocko. Just checking in and saying, hey, if there's anything I can do to help you in life at Echelon Front, let me know if there's anything. Just whatever it is. And I continuously was reaching out to Jocko and I used to say, I still believe it to be true, but I used to say it a lot. The mentor doesn't seek out the mentee. It's the other way around. And so I was seeking that mentorship from Jocko and Leif because I genuinely wanted to help them, because I saw the impact using those principles restored my marriage and obviously my faith.

[Andy]

I don't think it works if the. If you were somebody who wants to mentor you, the other person has to want it as much as you do. Otherwise it's not going to work. You can be so frustrated.

[JP]

Have you made that mistake with of people? Oh, yeah. Where you were pouring into them and you wanted them to win more than they wanted to win.

[Andy]

One of the mantras I live by is don't want more for people than they want for themselves.

[JP]

That's good. Yeah, I've made that mistake.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And so it's not bad to do, so.

[Andy]

No, it's cautious where you're directing your energy. It's just a reminder to me. I'm not saying people shouldn't care about others.

[JP]

No, I. Yes.

[Andy]

Yeah. But it can be misconstrued a little.

[JP]

What? I realized what had happened. When I look at things through the lens of extreme ownership, I wasn't aligned with those people because I wasn't communicating with them regularly. It was lack of communication from my side, which had those things fall apart, which, again, that's on me 100%. But I was reaching out to Jocko. What I didn't know is that Seth was also talking to Jocko and said, hey, I think JP could use some help. He needs something new. He needs a new mission. And that's what that triggered. Jocko reaching out to me.

[Andy]

That's awesome.

[JP]

And when I say that was his last gift to me. There was other little things, but that was the last one that changed my life. Yeah. And Seth passed away on September 30, 2017, and that was devastating, man.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

I was talking to him that morning, and he was headed up on a jump. Jump.

[Andy]

Yeah. Doing a base jump. No, it was a balloon jump. A simulated.

[JP]

Yeah. Bass jump out of a balloon.

[Andy]

It's. Which is not technically a bass jump.

[JP]

Okay.

[Andy]

Well, no, what you're saying isn't wrong. He was wearing bass jumping equipment. And it's. It's a really good training tool.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

It doesn't meet the stupid guidelines building antenna Spanner Earth, but.

[JP]

Got it.

[Andy]

It's a zero airspeed jump.

[JP]

Yeah. And I was on Instagram messaging him. Messaging with him that morning. And the last thing I said to him was, hit me up when you're done for the day, bud. And then I got a call from Leif Babin a few hours later, and I see Leif calling me. I'm all happy. It's Leif. It's my buddy. It's my boss.

[Andy]

Arguably the most recognizable voice on Earth.

[JP]

Yes. Texas Batman.

[Andy]

You eat on any radio. Be like, that's Leif.

[JP]

Yeah. Anything back in the day? No. When he was on Fox News a lot with Jocko, and you just hear my. Oh, he's on the tv.

[Andy]

The single most recognizable voice I think I've ever heard.

[JP]

It's amazing. I mean, he can make hundreds of millions of dollars just reading people's books.

[Andy]

Probably. Yeah.

[JP]

But I see Leif Collin, and this is one my close friend, but also my boss. So I keep that separation. But when I see Leif Colin, I'm happy. I see Jocko calling. I'm happy, you know. So I pick up the phone, hey, Leif. He's like, ajp. And it was that tone that I knew. It was the same thing when Carlos Mendez called me to tell me that Brad Kavanagh had passed away. The same tone, hey, jp. And I do. I knew. And yeah, he told me that Seth had passed away. And there was. I don't remember anything else that was really said. I said, okay. I was like, I'll start reaching out to the guys. I called Amanda because at the time she was working at her shop. She had a little. Little place in South Haven, Mississippi, A beer, liquor, wine accessory store. Cool little place. And I called her, I said, hey, Seth passed away. I need to. And he started reaching out to guys. I don't know what to do next. And she started crying because she had gotten to meet Seth a few times and had gotten close with them just because that's who Seth is. And he made his way. He was doing a road trip across America on his motorcycle and stopped in Memphis so that we could meet for breakfast. One time, you know, we both were together out in the east coast for our upgrade award ceremony. He was there, spent, you know, we.

[Andy]

We just.

[JP]

You know, Vanna loved him. She loved him. She also loved him because she knew how much I loved him and how much he loved me and took care of me. And so she calls her parents and to come pick up the kids because I was just hanging out at the house with the kids and I would have been fine if the kids stayed there, but she just wanted to give me a little bit of space. Quiet, little quietness. And I'll never forget the look of my in law's face. Like I said, I know my parents love me. I love my parents. Great parents. I've always known my in laws loved me. But when they showed up and I saw how much they were hurt by who I lost, I knew that my in laws loved me. Yeah. Like, I always knew it. But that was like.

[Andy]

Yep.

[JP]

Validation.

[Andy]

Yep.

[JP]

Because they both were like, like, jp, I'm so sorry. And they both gave me a big hug. They got the kids, took them back over to their house, and I just started working the phone. And then everything's a blur between then and San Diego.

[Andy]

Totally.

[JP]

At a funeral, I'm just. And make our way out to San Diego and, you know, I had the honor of standing watch over Seth at the funeral home. Everyone's coming in and out, and Jocko and Leif were like the last two guys to show up, everyone kind of just cleared out and gave it to the three of us. And what really hurt me at that moment was seeing the pain on Jocko's face and Leif's face. These are two guys that have always taken care of me. And to see them hurting and I couldn't do anything to help. I couldn't take care of my leadership was really hard. There is nothing I could do physically.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And so we spent some time in there. I took off a bracelet that I had on my wrist that had the names of all the guys previously that had been killed, put it in the casket, and Leif put a few things in there that was of significance to him and him and Seth. Jocko presented. Seth was his black belt into his casket. And he just sat there and he broke his silence by saying, we will not fail. We will not fail Seth because he never failed us. And we will not fail the rest of the guys because they never failed us. And those words will always stick with me to the. Until my last breath. And I go to heaven and I get to see Seth and Mikey and Mark and Ryan and Chris and Aaron and J.T. and Brad and all these guys. Right. Scott and my buddy Luke and all these guys. Like, I know I. I know where I'm going and I know where they're at. But those words, we will not fail is something I think about every day.

[Andy]

It's a heavy burden, man. It's a very heavy burden. I don't know if it's possible, but it's certainly a. It's certainly a noble cause.

[JP]

Well, I think if you have that mindset of we will not fail, that's the best way to honor them.

[Andy]

I agree.

[JP]

Because it. It guides your decisions. Now, you know, in my home office, and I'm getting these. These boards put back up like whiteboards, but they're. They're not white. I'll just call them whiteboards.

[Andy]

Well, what the hell are they?

[JP]

Marking boards.

[Andy]

Don't tease me with something that looks like something that is something else.

[JP]

I just call it a whiteboard because.

[Andy]

Are they made out of glass or something?

[JP]

Yes.

[Andy]

Just say glass boards.

[JP]

All right. No one would know. There might be people that don't know what that is. Glass boards for practicing karate. I don't know.

[Andy]

That would be very dangerous, and I feel like people would go to the hospital.

[JP]

Yeah. It's a bad business idea. I know.

[Andy]

Exactly.

[JP]

That's why you break wood boards.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Anyways, the glass boards.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Andy, thank you for your Correction, sir.

[Andy]

You're very welcome.

[JP]

Yep. Anyways, harder on the R if it's

[Andy]

going to be insulting, sir.

[JP]

No, I wasn't insulting. I would never insult an officer of your caliber.

[Andy]

I laughed every day that people saluted me. I was like, God, I've got all you fooled.

[JP]

So I want. Once these are put up, I'm going to put these back up and for these are like my five things so that I can think about. We will not fail. Be a good Christian, be a good husband, be a good father, be a good member of echelon front and be a good friend.

[Andy]

You going to do five individual boards?

[JP]

No, just across the top.

[Andy]

Top. Okay.

[JP]

It's just. And I used to have our old house that we rented. I used. I did. I was on the top. And when I'm at home in my now current office situation, Wait, you know, I have my bookshelves behind me and off to the right. All these different books. Your book is on there as well. Sweet, man. Absolutely. Actually, it's not on the bookshelf. It's on my desk, slid off slightly

[Andy]

in the garbage can. It's not a big deal.

[JP]

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So I have, you know, and then I have different things. Like, you know, I have my helmet from when we were going through training and the teams has JP and big bold letters. And that's because Jocko is like, hey, you know, I need you to put your name on your helmet so I can find you to task you with stuff. Right. So things that are important to me, my boots, my bud's helmet, like a knife that Seth all gave to us. He. I'm sorry that Seth gave to all of us before we deployed. Like, different things like that. Just reminders. But where I'm sitting on, across from me on the wall above the window or above the doors is a flag that was flown on the day that Seth passed away. And you know, just different things and reminders. And so those five things are reminders, like if I'm doing something or about to do something or want to do something that violates those, I don't need to do it. And now here's the thing. I will fail daily in all of those. And I know that I'm a flawed human. I'm a sinner. We're all sinners. We all fall short. But if I have those things as a visual reminder that will help me live my life to honor these guys, because that is my obligation to live my life to honor these guys that poured into me that are no Longer with us, but after this last weekend of what we were able to do as a platoon, it's also my obligation to live my life to honor those guys and to support them. And that was one of the things that we got to do. On Saturdays, we went and did blacksmithing work. And the reason why we went to Bozeman, Montana area, is because there is a guy there who has a business doing leather work for cowboys and rodeos. He was. He was incredible. His name is Heil Steel, and his business is steel halters. Like steel, silver, S T E E L E Halters. And so he does all the leather rope work for cowboying and rodeos and everything. He's a professional rodeo guy. Guy's amazing. But he's also done blacksmithing work his whole life. And so one of the things that Wes did when he got out, as he was transitioning through some program, is he went and did blacksmithing work with Heil. And Heil is an incredible teacher. Massive human, as you would imagine. Most blacksmiths are.

[Andy]

Very strong grips.

[JP]

Oh, his fingers had biceps like you look at his hands.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Unreal.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And so he put it together for us to go, and we're going to force steel. And the. The premise that Wes kind of put together for this was, hey, leaving today and leaving this time together, we are going to forge ourselves into better, stronger people. We are going to be different. We're going to support. We're going to. We're going to do these things better. And the significance also of forging that steel was seeing something mold and change over time. But it takes a lot of hard work. Like we were talking about earlier, if you want to heal and, you know, and grow as a human from this cost, it's a long path. It's not just one little twist. It's not one little hammer. It's not one little change. So we're taking these pieces of steel, and he shows us what we're going to do. And it was like, hey, we're gonna do steak flippers. And we're like, all right, cool. So when you say steak flipper, almost all of our guys, you know what we're thinking? We're gonna take something, we're gonna pound it down flat, and it's gonna be like a spatula. Like, I'm thinking, correct. Yes. Okay, that's what you're thinking. Well, he shows us what we're gonna make. And Doug's like, you know, Doug Wallace, He's a funny dude. Also incredible sniper. Very, very skilled with weapons and all that. Stuff. He was like, hold on. I thought we were doing something like a little pounding it thin and. Yeah, I got a hand.

[Andy]

Maybe we'll put some little grooves.

[JP]

Grooves in it that we clearly cut with a machine. Yeah, right. No, we're taking this piece of steel, and we're going to lengthen it out, thin it out. And we're going to take that, and we're going to create a hook that's curved, and then we're also going to create a handle that looks like it's braided, roped, that's twisted with a little eye hook at the end. And that's what we're going to create. And he shows us, and all the guys are like, how are we going to go from this piece of steel?

[Andy]

You know, we don't know how to do this, right?

[JP]

Yeah. And so we're in his shop, and we're like, okay, this is crazy. So he shows us, which, like anything in life, it's a skill set. Leadership is a skill set. Marriage is a skill set. Communication is a skill set. Blacksmithing is a skill set. Growth and healing is a skill set. Jiu Jitsu skill set. You have to put in the work, but before you put in the work, you have to be taught properly, like your wife.

[Andy]

Learning is a skill set as well.

[JP]

And. Yes, thank you. Learning is a skill set. Like, your wife's ability to teach Jiu Jitsu is at the top. And I know you know that, but I want to reiterate that, because Farmigo was also saying that about her as well. Her ability to teach is. Is unmatched. There's only a few people I know that teach at a high level that also compete at a high level that can do what she does.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And you and I are fortunate. You're married to one, and I'm learning from Farmiga. So we're. We're very blessed. And Victoria does the same as well. And my buddy Brandt, I haven't mentioned, but he's also one of our black belt coaches, former radio recon Marine. He was on my podcast, shared a story. His ability to teach is unreal. So those are my three people that pour into me for Jiu Jitsu. You have your wife. Now we have this guy for blacksmith. He is like the coral belt of blacksmithing, just unreal. So he shows us, cool. This is what we're going to make. And guys are like, cool. I mean, I believe you, but I don't understand how I go from this piece of steel to that, which is a lot of things in Life. How do you go from here to there? And I think a lot of people screw up in life because they don't figure out the steps in between. You get overwhelmed from start to finish, and it's like, no, make a small, iterative step. Small, iterative change. That's what blacksmithing is. So he shows us, and he walks us through it. He's walking. Yep. We got to heat it up. It's got to look like this. It's got to lay flat. Boom. Pull it out, bring it over here. Ding, ding, ding, ding. All right, start from three quarters. Work your way down. Flip it 90 degrees. Work your way down. Go back to halfway. Work it down halfway. Work it down one quarter. One quarter. Make sure you're really hitting that tip to, like, elongate it and thin it out. Cool. He's working through it effortlessly, just working through it. And you're just seeing this transformation real time in front of you. All right, so as you see as it starts to get cold, it's a little bit harder. You can make some changes, but not a lot of expansion and growth. Goes back, gets a hot comes out. It's just glowing hot. And he's like, yeah, this one gets it hot a little bit time. He had, like, like an old school coal one. Had this, like, turbo from, like, an engine.

[Andy]

I know you're talking.

[JP]

He hooked up to a fan system, and he's like, so chief's over there. He's like, like, just blowing the air in there.

[Andy]

Just.

[JP]

It's amazing. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Elongates it. Okay, cool. Hey, here's now how we're going to do the handle. Right. Okay, cool. Hey, when you're putting this in there, it's gonna be hot. Dip this portion in the water. Now you can hold it to have better. Instead of the tongs. Boom. Now you're gonna. You're gonna chisel these lines in on each side. All right? They need to be deep. This is a long process. It takes multiple iterations to see any progress. Multiple iterations to any progress. Now. Cool. Now you're going to take that. You're going to create your little hook. Boom. And then bending the steel and then now taking a thick piece, elongating it out, getting the curve on it. All right, now we're going to braid, and we're going to twist it and put it in the vise where it was. Just looked normal. Like, you just looked like you have these little divots on each side, and you go get that super glowing hot. Like, just as I say Red hot. And it's. Just pull it out. Okay. Put the little end, like, little hook thing that you're holding on to. Put that in the water cold so that that doesn't twist, but you want to twist the top part. Put it in the clamp, Put this on it. And then you're twisting it to create that rope, like, twist. All right, cool. Now, once you're done here, we're going to go to this side. We're going to elongate that out, and then we're going to create the hook. And it turned out to be this piece that was. You would literally just be able to hook your stakes with and twist. And it was absolutely awesome to be able to go from a piece of steel to. This.

[Andy]

Oh, that's awesome. I would have gone with the spatula. I do like the twist, though. Metal is so crazy. Like, that. That looks amazing, man.

[JP]

And then I'll send you a picture of it. And that's not cleaned up. So then now we're, like, cleaning it up and making it look real pretty. And then we made some nails, which was extremely difficult. It seems super easy. Extremely difficult. But, you know. Yeah, this is they. Yeah. Heil and his family set up

[Andy]

a

[JP]

dinner in their barn. We all walk in and look at that setup. Now. I got super emotional when I walked in, because how intentional they were to create this moment for us.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And they had been, you know, his wife and his daughters and Wes's wife had been cooking, like, the food for us while we're doing all this stuff. And, yeah, we hung a flag for Seth, hung a flag for Mikey, and then we had that flag for us.

[Andy]

Let me see this picture. It's a good crew, man.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Yeah. I'm sure this guy's over there on the right.

[JP]

Smurf's not over there. But just to be able to have that moment with these guys. And then, you know, we made these nails that look absolutely horrible, but it was really cool. And then we all made those nails. And then Mess. Wes made a. A Delta platoon brand. Right. Just the triangle, and he branded it into a log. And then we all pounded each of our. We all pounded each, like, one of our nails that we made into that to signify. To signify, just bearing that stuff. Everything very powerful. And, bro, each guy hammered their nail into there. And then there's a few guys that weren't able to make it because, like, grandmother passed away or worked or, you know, like I said, Mike, last minute, unfortunately, couldn't make it. And so each guy in Their honor did a nail in there for them. Like, hey, doing this for you. Boom. Put it in there. And then there's a hatchet that Wes had, and he gave it to Andrew Paul, who is the senior man. You know, he was number two. Seth was number one. He took the hatchet, boom, buried it into that piece of wood to signify. And we're burying the hatchet from all the BS in between guys that may have occurred or not occurred, or maybe you thought you had issues with another guy. We're burying that hatchet. It's done. And then went out to their orchard, and they had a hole dug for us. We put it in the ground, and we all covered it up with dirt. I said a prayer for the guys afterwards, and it was awesome. And then we went and sat in the garage, cracked open a few beers, and just sat and talked. And Hal and his wife and daughters and Wes's wife sat there with us and talked and just. We just talked. And it was really cool to see this family so dedicated to helping veterans, because how would have been an awesome guy in the military. But as he said, he's like, that wasn't God's path for me. He goes, so I do the leather work to facilitate my ability to do the blacksmithing for veterans.

[Andy]

That's awesome.

[JP]

So that leatherwork, you know, steel halters, that's their business to fund the blacksmithing work that they do. And it saved Wes's life. Because if Wes wouldn't have had that, I don't know where he would have been to fight through what he is currently fighting through right now. Because the growth of him doing that steel work every day and having a gentleman pour into him every day, you can't calculate that.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And the impact of that family on our platoon now is just unreal. And so that's what we did. And it's. It's something we need to all figure out how to do. And that's the thing we're trying to figure out. Like, hey, what are the next steps? How do you help guys? The thing I've been thinking about a lot is, like, all right, just get creative. Do something. You know, Jocko's form of working through all this stuff is he builds and works and does things to help other people. That's what Leif and Jocko did with extreme ownership. They poured into extreme ownership. They poured into dichotomy of leadership. You know, the kids books that Jocko has written, there are men and women at the Naval Academy at West Point right now because they wrote they read the warriors kids series.

[Andy]

Yeah, I don't doubt it.

[JP]

It's. It's crazy. Like, that's a factual statement. Jocko has met k men and women at the Naval Academy at West Point that are there because they read the Warrior kids series that he wrote for kids. And then as they got older, they read Extreme ownership. They read dichotomy of leadership. It's crazy. And your book is going to do the same like your book. No, let's not get crazy. Stop. Let's not get crazy.

[Andy]

You're going to test 10. We need you to six.

[JP]

All right. We'll bring it back down to a seven. Six is unacceptable. Seven. Okay. But, man, your book is awesome.

[Andy]

Thank you.

[JP]

Dave Burke also wrote a book, need to lead. Same thing.

[Andy]

He sat in that chair and talked about it for a couple hours. It was awesome.

[JP]

Rob Jones.

[Andy]

Haven't met Rob yet, but he's been in.

[JP]

Yes. Works with us. Double above the knee amputee. He's an echelon front instructor. He ran 31 marathons in 31 consecutive days in 31 different, different cities to raise awareness that veterans are not broken and we can do incredible things. And his book is called put your legs on. Because every day, guess what Rob Jones has to do.

[Andy]

I was going to say that's. Not many people can title a book that appropriately.

[JP]

Yeah. I mean, to be a dad, he's got to put his legs on. To be a husband, he's got to put his legs on. To be a national arm front instructor, he's has. He has to put his legs on. The only option for Rob every day is to put his legs on and move forward. And I'm thankful you and I don't have any of those types of injuries.

[Andy]

Yeah, no kidding, man.

[JP]

But we got to put our gear on every day.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Just like we did in combat, we had to put our gear on. And for me, as a believer, it's the same thing. That's what the Bible tells us. Put on the armor of God daily. Not, hey, you should do this once a week and think about it. It every single day. Because we're under attack as believers, just like we were in. In combat. Every day. You were there, you had your gear on.

[Andy]

Correct. It's only one time I took my plates off and I deeply regretted it.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

We were at an extremely high altitude, so I was appreciative then, but not at the threshold of the door getting ready to make entry. I was like, wow. Would have been worth the wait.

[JP]

Yep, 100%.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

And you know, in Ramadi, at Camp Corregidor, you know, the lessons that we learned from those soldiers and Marines, which were some of the most brave human beings I've ever worked alongside. National Guardsmen, Marines, just getting after it every day. Those guys always had their gear on, and we learned to always have your gear on. Like, you couldn't walk from one building to the next at Camp Crigador without there being an inherent risk of that base being attacked or mortars or anything like that. It's just. It's crazy.

[Andy]

Indeed.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Well, I got to get you out of here soon, but on the blacksmithing route.

[JP]

Oh.

[Andy]

So, Josh Smith is the youngest master bladesmith that has ever been, and this blade is a perfect one for you. This is their war goat.

[JP]

War goat.

[Andy]

Yes.

[JP]

I like that name.

[Andy]

It wasn't selected by accident for you.

[JP]

Okay.

[Andy]

I figured that you would appreciate this the most, so. He's awesome. He. I have done some forging with metal with him down in his shop in his garage. That's how I have an understanding of what you're talking about. With the heat and the.

[JP]

Yeah.

[Andy]

The changing of the metal. I figured you would appreciate one of these blades for sure. Do not cut your finger off again.

[JP]

I didn't fully cut it off, almost.

[Andy]

Do not cut your finger at all, please.

[JP]

Just.

[Andy]

There you go. It's a sick blade, bro. Yep.

[JP]

That is.

[Andy]

I don't know what you call the pinky thing, but I like the pinky loop. That's what I call it. That's a sweet blade.

[JP]

What can also be for your index?

[Andy]

I mean, I don't need to. I'm not here to tell people how to party, you know?

[JP]

Have you ever, like, worked with somebody who does knife fighting? No.

[Andy]

I carry a gun.

[JP]

Yeah. Okay. So if you see somebody holding a knife like this, run really fast. Yes. Because if they're first off, a good

[Andy]

rule of knife says if somebody pulls one out, get the out of there. Because knives scare me way more than guns.

[JP]

For sure.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

Yeah. I mean, but if somebody's doing this.

[Andy]

Yeah. The little. Hi. Can I get you.

[JP]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I'm gonna back away. Yeah. I might be able to kick that out of your hand and then run or whatever.

[Andy]

So you're saying if they go the other way, though, you're in trouble.

[JP]

This is made for slashing, so cool. You put up your hands. I'm slashing through. I'm slashing through your forearms. I'm slashing through your neck. I'm slashing through your gut. I'm pushing through your stomach. I'm pushing and then coming back and stabbing. If somebody has this go, like, just get out of there as fast as you can. Because also, the other thing is I can defend. Defend myself. I can block totally. I can strike. I can push you back and then come through, cut the inside of your bicep like. Cool. You strike, I block. I cut through your bicep.

[Andy]

Yeah. Then your arm doesn't work anymore. Yep.

[JP]

Yep.

[Andy]

No, thanks. Yeah, no, thank you. I figured you would appreciate that particular blade.

[JP]

Sorry, I went to level 10 again. That's fine.

[Andy]

That you might have been at a 12. It's hard to say.

[JP]

Lucas reminds me. So I do my podcast with my buddy Lucas.

[Andy]

Did you. Did you check luggage or carry on?

[JP]

I'm going to check this back.

[Andy]

We can mail it to you.

[JP]

No.

[Andy]

Okay.

[JP]

Yeah. All right. No, I don't want to wait on this.

[Andy]

Okay.

[JP]

I want this with me. This is beautiful. Thank you, Ben.

[Andy]

That's Josh. Josh Smith.

[JP]

I thought you said Ben.

[Andy]

No, Josh Smith.

[JP]

Oh, sharpened by.

[Andy]

Oh, that was sharpened by Ben. That's one of his employees. But also, thank you, Ben, for sharpening the knife.

[JP]

Yes. Okay.

[Andy]

Josh Smith is the founder.

[JP]

Thank you, Josh.

[Andy]

The employee that.

[JP]

Thank you, Jason. From Quality Control, packaged by Preston and Ben Sharpened Dude Montana knife company. Let's go.

[Andy]

Yeah, Just down the road in Missoula.

[JP]

Yeah. Which I also love that you have that in your Black Rifle coffee store.

[Andy]

The knives. Yeah.

[JP]

Yes. And your apparel. Did you. I heard that your coffee shop was.

[Andy]

It's pretty dope.

[JP]

One of the best in the nation.

[Andy]

It's pretty dope.

[JP]

It's really loud and annoying. For the microphone.

[Andy]

That's right.

[JP]

Sorry, Michael, you can quiet that out. What?

[Andy]

What do you want? Leave people with, man Closing Thoughts by

[JP]

JP So one, I would just real quick, I just want to give, you know, obviously, some love to my wife that I hope I articulated properly over this podcast of just how amazing she's been to me. One thing I didn't share earlier, and I haven't shared this with many people, the day that Carlos called me and told me that Brad Kaepner had died, I called my wife right away and I told her that Brad had been killed. Brad was my last roommate that I had before I got out and moved out to Mississippi to be with Amanda and our family. And then I went right back into work and told my boss, one of the owners of the company, Jeff, incredible human. He goes, okay, is the funeral going to be in San Diego? And I said, yeah. He goes I need you to go see some of our clients in San Diego in the next couple weeks. Let me know when the trip works for you. Helping me out. Called a man again when I was driving. I get home and she had some Jameson and ginger ale for me and dinner ready for us and the family. We sat and talked, and she was asked to make sure I was okay. And we're just talking through stuff, put the kids down, have some drinks, and you know that we had that evening together. What I didn't know for a very long time is that night she had planned on serving me divorce papers. When I came home from work that night, she was. It was just gonna be her there, and she was gonna serve me divorce papers. And even though she was at the point of, I'm done, we're done, she still had enough compassion and love for me, Ma', am. To not do that. I don't know how I would have handled both those things in one night. I can speculate.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[JP]

I don't know. I do not know what I would have done. Whether it was hurt myself or go downtown Beale street and just hurt as many people as I could. I don't know. She had enough love for me as a human and as the father of her children to not hurt me more. And when I say more, she didn't hurt me. I hurt her. But she didn't want to create any of that to me. Months later, it got worse and we did get a divorce. And like I shared, we were able to get our marriage back by the grace of God and forgiveness and a lot of work. A lot of work.

[Andy]

Yeah, let's not leave that part out.

[JP]

And applying the principles of extreme ownership and what we are learning together in church and in counseling and in a small group through our church to actually. And actually putting an end to work. And it still work. But about a year later, we got our marriage back. So I want to articulate how much I love my wife and how much she has saved me over the years and my kids as well. Like, when I see my kids being good humans, loving people, serving Jesus, training jiu jitsu, trying their best at school and work and all these things, like, it brings me joy.

[Andy]

Foreign.

[JP]

I'm also thankful for the push that Jocko and Leif have always given me to be uncomfortable. You know, I. The reason why I do my podcast with Lucas is just to try to help other people. I don't want to. We talked about this earlier. I'm not trying to be Jocko. I'm not trying to Be you. With my podcast, I'm just trying to be the best version of who God created me to be. And so my. The intent behind my podcast was to share the lessons that I have from Echelon Front, to help other people that will never work with Echelon Front, to share my faith, to grow the kingdom, and to help other people share their stories by interviews or whatever we do. We're a very small podcast and I'm good with that. And I love it because we've led people to the Lord. There are times.

[Andy]

Doesn't matter, man Impact does.

[JP]

Yes, we've led people to the Lord. We've had people come to Echelon front trainings and FTXs and musters, or they're a part of Extreme Motorship Academy now, or they're reading Jocko and Lace books. Like, that's all I care about, you know, and like, the commitment that Lucas and his wife has done to help me do those things is. Is incredible. But also my team at Echelon Front, Cody is unreal. Like, I say the kid because he's in his 30s, to see what he's done with his life and his marriage and all the other instructors that I mentioned, you know, but my FTX guys, the field training exercise guys like Cody and Jesse and Josh and James and Joe and Brent and all these guys that commit to helping us at Echelon. Frank, their loyalty gives me drive every day. The loyalty that Dave and Jamie have to Jocko and Leif and to me gives me drive every day. The loyalty that Andrew Paul's had to me since sqt like Leif Babin has had gives me that drive. And like I said, all the instructors. But what Jocko and Leif has created, I'm thankful to have a seat at the table. You need to find people that are going to drive you to be a better version of who you are. But you, you have to decide to put in the work every day. What type of legacy are you going to leave? Because at the end of the day, each and every one of us is leaving a legacy. What is it going to be? One of the things I've learned through life in Echelon Front, every time I lost sight of what my actual mission was at that point in my life, that's when I would make mistakes. So we have to have a clearly defined mission. You have to create a plan and you have to put in the work every single day.

[Andy]

Easier said than done, but I think you're correct.

[JP]

Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity.

[Andy]

Have you seen the title of my second book?

[JP]

No.

[Andy]

I might have the COVID art. I think you'll appreciate this. It's not a big deal. Hopefully I have it saved. Easily accessible here. I'm not an artist, so I might have had to have some assistance. It's a working title. It's not a big deal.

[JP]

Didn't you create that because of some of, like, the things with your book?

[Andy]

Oh, 100%.

[JP]

That's amazing.

[Andy]

Yeah, it's. It's titled Extremely limited ownership. There are no bad leaders, only bad teams.

[JP]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Andy]

How long did it take us to put this together? Like three years. Have we been chatting about getting you out here?

[JP]

Yeah, I'd say at least two.

[Andy]

We'd have some dates. Shit would happen.

[JP]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

[Andy]

It happens. Well, we got to get you at least. Probably heading back towards the airport shortly.

[JP]

So I'm going by your store and grabbing some swag and then going to the airport. Because the apparel that you all have, it doesn't suck.

[Andy]

Come on, man. Well, let's get you out of here, though.

[JP]

Cool. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.