What Does The Evidence Show? - Is Epstein Alive? | Nic McKinley & Ryan Dalton | Ep. 454

Summary

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Episode 454: What Does The Evidence Show? - Is Epstein Alive? | Nic McKinley & Ryan Dalton
Host: Andy Stumpf
Date: June 22, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode dives deep into the evidence and anomalies surrounding the death of Jeffrey Epstein, with guests Nic McKinley (former CIA officer, DeliverFund founder) and Ryan Dalton (former State Dept. agent, lawyer, anti-trafficking tech leader). Together, they challenge the mainstream narrative of Epstein's suicide and explore data-driven, legal, and investigative perspectives pointing to the likelihood that Epstein did not die in prison— and may in fact still be alive. The broader focus is not just on Epstein, but on what his case reveals about corruption and the operational realities of intelligence, law enforcement, and government power in the US.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Addressing Conspiracy Theories Without "Tin Foil Hats"

• Motivation for Discussion
  • The hosts clarify they're not interested in sensationalizing Epstein, but rather using his case to expose systemic failures and government corruption.
  • “I don't actually give a s**t about Epstein at all...I watched people make such grandiose claims...I just think the dude moved money for intelligence agencies.” — Andy (00:16)
• Obstacles
  • It's difficult to have a rational conversation on Epstein without being labeled a conspiracy theorist due to the extreme narratives circulating.
  • Utilitarian logic within government (the "greater good") is called out as central to the problem: abuses are tolerated if believed to benefit national security.

2. Who Was Epstein, Really?

• Not Just a Sex Offender

  • Epstein is viewed as a broker for money movement and potentially as a money launderer for intelligence agencies — not as a sophisticated “super agent.”
  • “He was a broker.” — Ryan (00:49)

• Evidence of Intelligence Ties

  • When the FBI raided his Manhattan home, they found a legitimate Austrian passport with a different name, featuring real travel stamps.
  • Guests explain that legitimate false passports are almost exclusively issued by governments/intelligence agencies (not something money can casually buy). (29:48–33:10)

• Epstein’s Competence & ‘Useful Idiot’ Angle

  • Consensus that Epstein wasn’t especially intelligent: he rose socially due to usefulness, not brilliance (36:16, 35:51)
  • His connections and "special treatment" likely had more to do with his utility to powerful structures than personal ability.

3. The Core Evidence — Suicide, Murder, or Extraction?

• Three Hypotheses Presented

  1. Suicide (official version)
  2. Murdered in jail
  3. Extracted/rescued (i.e., left alive)

• Statistical Improbabilities of the Suicide Narrative

  • Nick uses Bayesian statistical modeling and Department of Justice base rates to calculate the odds of all the documented “anomalies” (broken cameras, asleep guards, cell mate removed, etc.) occurring together.
  • “The probability...was one in five times 10 to the power of 30.” — Nick (47:19)
  • Even when discounting most damning evidence, odds were as low as 1 in 23,000; fully, 1 in 810,000 by their binarized logic (51:16)
  • “To me… it's actually illogical that the official narrative, the self-inflicted outcome, is not just improbable, but actually illogical.” — Nick (51:18)

• Systemic Rot & Two-Tiered Justice

  • “There’s two tiers of the justice system: one for people like us, and one for guys like Epstein.” — Ryan (20:01)
  • Evidence from official files suggests government “cover-up” and involvement at high levels.

4. The Smoking Guns: Documents, Handwriting, and Escape Plans

• Epstein’s "Escape Plan" Notes

  • Recovered from his cell: handwritten paper detailing airports, red notices (Interpol alerts for international fugitives), considering planes, banking access, and security—a clear sign of preparation for escape, not suicide.
  • Notable details: mentions of blackmail, banking, guard alignment, and possible destination countries (e.g., Qatar, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia). (59:25–65:07)
  • “This is not the mental space of someone who's about to kill themselves. This is someone who's intending to escape.” — Ryan (64:20)
  • Smoking gun: note with “jail out=10” (release date matches his “death” day). (70:04)

• Trust Restructuring

  • While in MCC, Epstein met with his lawyers up to 12 hours/day, restructured his estate into a trust (1953 Trust) to block survivor claims and shield beneficiaries — right before alleged death. (55:14)

5. The Autopsy & Biological Evidence

• The Prostate Controversy

  • Epstein reportedly told a court (2010) that he had no prostate, confirmed by a LabCorp record indicating a “radical prostatectomy.”
  • The official autopsy, however, states the prostate was intact — suggesting the body examined was not Epstein’s.
  • “If we could find proof or evidence that he actually had that procedure and then the autopsy says the prostate is intact, I don't know how you walk past those.” — Andy (91:25)
  • For Nick, this is a personal “smoking gun.” (91:36)

• Body “Decoy” Allegation & Physical Anomalies

  • FBI memo describes use of a decoy body to misdirect media; photos reveal odd inconsistencies (nose, ears) between Epstein when alive and body on the gurney. (84:31)
  • Raises questions of possible body swap at the time of “death.”

6. Post-“Death” Activity/Signals of Life

• Digital Footprint

  • Video game accounts (War Thunder, Fortnite) registered/active under Epstein’s known handles and emails well after his death (2024, 2026).
  • “If you have two brain cells to rub together, you would just create a new account with a name not directly associated...But he didn't know that this was going to come out.” — Andy and Ryan (118:00)

• Epstein on the Island?

  • Drone footage (by “Rusty Shackelford”) of Little St. James records a man matching Epstein’s profile living on the island in apparent comfort.
  • The island remains under management of loyal personnel; ownership officially transferred but no development undertaken. (102:49–106:51)

7. Motive: Why Keep Epstein Alive?

• Fear of Criminal Discovery (Legal Uncontrollability)

  • If Epstein went to trial, broad criminal discovery would have exposed intelligence and political figures on public record—no national security shield allowed in defense.
  • “If you are one of the people...what then is the fear? And it's criminal discovery.” — Ryan (121:16)
  • The defense would seek plea bargains, naming names and institutions (127:38)

• Leverage & Rot at the Top

  • Epstein’s value was his ability to blackmail, to wield power over elites—removing him risked exposure, saving him preserved leverage.
  • The issue is not his survival alone, but the protection of power structures that benefit from secrecy.

8. It’s Bigger Than Epstein: The Systemic View

• Point of the Investigation

  • The case is used as a lens to illustrate “rotten corruption” at the highest levels — and that if we accept this, it proves “your vote doesn’t matter,” because the intelligence community and supranational interests run the country. (129:59)
  • “There are so many people talking about Epstein and so few people talking about the corruption. That is where I can see the government intentionally using this as a smokescreen.” — Andy (128:21)

• The Importance of Pursuing Truth

  • Failure to pursue truth regarding Epstein’s fate = failure to check government corruption. If the public gives up, “just buy a place in Costa Rica and bounce out.” (135:01)
  • Emphasis on generational responsibility: “If you have a generation that says, we're not giving up on the truth...and my kids’ generation say...we'll never know...after that it’s lost.” — Ryan (162:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I think the evidence shows from the files themselves, that he left that cell alive.” — Ryan (10:45)
• “The probability…was one in five times 10 to the power of 30.” — Nick [On the likelihood all jail anomalies happened by chance] (47:19)
• “The government narrative around Epstein is just illogical...it only comes from arrogance.” — Nick (52:22)
• “This is not the mental space of someone who's about to kill themselves. This is someone who's intending to escape.” — Ryan (64:20)
• “To me the smoking gun is actually in the autopsy.” — Nick (76:19)
• “If we give up on the billionaire child trafficker used our daughters...then allowed that corruption and rot to persist...and we just said, we're helpless, might as well just buy a place in Costa Rica and bounce out.” — Ryan (134:57)
• “You can be nowhere, or you can be everywhere, but you can’t be anywhere in between. That’s the whole concept of hiding in plain sight.” — Nick (103:43)
• “There’s the truth seekers and there’s the secret keepers.” — Ryan (164:26)
• “Don’t look to the government to solve all your problems. No one is coming to save you.” — Andy (166:05)
• “We are in an epistemological crisis...a crisis right now, one generation away from death.” — Ryan (161:46)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:16 – Framing the Epstein conversation, utilitarian logic in government
• 10:45 – Ryan states his core thesis: the evidence shows Epstein left his cell alive
• 29:48–33:10 – Details on false passport, intelligence ties
• 41:43–44:42 – Statistical probability of jail “anomalies”
• 47:19–52:22 – Odds breakdown; logic of government narrative
• 55:14–56:54 – Epstein restructuring his trust from jail
• 59:25–65:07 – Deep dive: Epstein’s escape plan notes (evidence card)
• 70:04 – “Jail out=10” reference, aligning with date of alleged death
• 84:31–91:25 – Body swap allegations, autopsy prostate anomaly
• 101:23–110:06 – Signals of life: drone footage, email, gaming activity
• 121:16–127:38 – Risks of criminal discovery, possible defense strategies
• 128:21–130:08 – Point: Corruption is the real story
• 135:01–137:25 – If you give up on the case, you give up on the country
• 161:46 – Epistemic/generational crisis and urgency of confronting government secrecy
• 163:18 – Ryan's personal "death waiver" speech; commitment to life

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Flow, Tone & Atmosphere

• Tone: Candid, irreverent, analytical, sometimes humorous but deeply concerned. "Locker-room" camaraderie among former intelligence, special operations, and law enforcement professionals.
• Language: Frank, some explicit language, urgent appeals to the listener's skepticism and civic responsibility.
• Approach: Expert-level, technical detail, anecdotal and with color from real-world government/intel experience; avoids wild speculation, focusing only on officially released/government-verified documents.
• Atmosphere: Deeply skeptical of the official narrative, but grounded in data and logic; encourages listeners to "seek the truth" themselves.

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Calls to Action & Outcomes

• epsteinisintdead.org:
  – Comprehensive timeline, document archive, and Bayesian/statistical analysis of the evidence. – Public reward pool for proof-of-life information to incentivize "inner circle" betrayal. – Automated email tool for listeners to urge their legislators to support an “Epstein Truth Commission.”

• Civic Engagement:
  – Encourages “normie” citizens to run for local, state, and national office. – Don’t trust the system to fix itself; build public-private partnerships and demand change from the outside.

• Closing Thought:
  – The discussion is a vehicle to expose the magnitude of government rot and the threats to democracy, not just a rehash of Epstein rumors. – “There are two classes of people… truth seekers and secret keepers.”

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Transcript

[Ryan]

Caffeine gummies. Right? Yeah.

[Nick]

So it's the same as the gummies. Nootropic gummies.

[Ryan]

Good for your brain. For your brain.

[Nick]

Which means more is better.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Ingredient one Tapioca syrup. My favorite. Sweet. Thank you.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Okay, here's. You know, I was thinking about this noodling on this. How do we have a conversation around this topic and not come off as we're wearing three piece tin foil tuxedos? Because I think all of this. Well, I know Nick and I, and maybe even yourself. Ryan said the same thing on the text thread. I don't actually give a. About Epstein at all. No, I. It to me. I. I watched people make such grandiose claims of where he was a triple agent or a quad agent or whatever. And for clarity, I just think the dude moved money for intelligence agencies and he offered his services.

[Ryan]

He's a broker.

[Michael]

Totally.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And for anybody who thinks that he was the only one doing that, you're gonna have to wake up.

[Ryan]

That's right.

[Michael]

For anybody that thinks that the US government probably in a room, didn't use exactly these words and it would be for the benefit of many, a few were gonna have to suffer for the greater good.

[Ryan]

They meant the utilitarian position.

[Michael]

But seriously.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Did they pro. Did the government? And by the. I don't know. I don't know if there's a dude twisting his mustache. I don't know if there's a cabal of people together. But definitely. It's not that I don't think so either. But if there was a group of people looking at someone like Epstein and they say he helps us move money from budget line items that we don't have to discuss or describe to actionable cash somewhere by laundering through trades. Because guess what? He sucked as a trader. But that's great if you're not worried about roi. If you win on the losers and you win on the winners, that's fantastic. I'm still looking for that business model.

[Ryan]

Mm.

[Michael]

They would look at that, and then somebody said, okay, but this guy, this particular dude has some baggage. He's really up as a person.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michael]

He's really preying on these type of people and facilitating it. I know for a fact that they would use for the greater good 100%. A few will suffer so that we can continue to have our umbrella of safety. And that sucks if you're one of those people that was abused. But that is legitimately how I feel. Our government operates at the highest levels.

[Ryan]

They do it at the lowest levels too. They make utilitarian decisions that some people are going to suffer. And some imminent domain is a great example of this. Right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

That's the probably most classic example. Some will suffer, but everyone wins.

[Michael]

So I don't give a shit about Epstein, but Nick and I, we sit down once a year and we try to scare the shit out of parents. Last year was about roblox. Interesting things with Roblox. I'm still having other conversations with people about it. It's. What a great platform for enrichment.

[Nick]

More on that later.

[Michael]

Yeah, but I. I hate the predatory aspect of it. And I also hate that nobody was held accountable.

[Ryan]

The corruption gets you.

[Michael]

The whole thing. Yeah, all of that. That's. That's the. That drives me nuts. Him as a person. I don't actually care if he's alive or not.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

If he is, I mean, I would care, because then maybe we could televise an execution with the potato peeler. That would be spectacular.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Skin off.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But it's tough to have a conversation about this topic without going into the clickbaity. Is Epstein a lot? Because I hear people. Sensational. Oh, they wheeled out a. A jelly body of the prison cell. This, that, or the other. I don't fucking know if the guy killed himself.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So I thought the same thing. Right. And had it not been Ryan who.

[Michael]

Pull that closer to your face. Pull it closer to your face.

[Nick]

Not a Navy guy. I'm not so used to this.

[Michael]

I mean, coming from the Air Force, I'm pretty sure you are coming.

[Nick]

Coming from the Air Force. What I can say is your chairs are subpar comfort.

[Michael]

But that's are the Rogan studio chairs. If they're good enough for him, they're good enough for me.

[Nick]

Well, they're not good enough for the United States Air Force. I'm just saying.

[Ryan]

Right?

[Nick]

It's a chart called the Chair Force for a reason.

[Michael]

All right, fair enough.

[Nick]

Yeah. Had you called me and said, hey, I want to run something by you to see if I'm crazy, I would have just said, you're crazy, and hung up. Same, but because it was Ryan, and I know Ryan. I've Known Ryan for 10 years. 2014. 2015. Since 2015. 11 years. Just real quick, I can brag on Ryan. So Ryan. So what we do at Deliver Fund, Ryan is the OG of that. The reason that we are doing that is because he stopped doing it. He literally. Y Combinator backed company that he started.

[Michael]

What was the term you just used? Y combinator.

[Nick]

Y Combinator. So Y combinator in the tech ecosystem, everybody knows it's like one of the top tech incubators that you can get into. Right. So he was backed by them few other like big name VCs. And for the whole purpose of trying to do this in a for profit model. Doesn't really work in a for profit model. And so the technology works. Yeah, the technology were great. So he actually kind of like. Like he's the foundation that we're standing on. The only. And we were one of his customers. Like, I was buying his product and then he had to close the company down. And so I was like, well, crap, now I got to. Now I got to build it myself.

[Ryan]

We sold it to a company then at the time called IST Research.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

So I then went and worked for the State Department as a federal agent. Really the biggest reason was it was pretty tough to sell that product to law enforcement agencies that didn't have a ton of money.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And we were a little bit early on it. Right. Using technology at scale to harvest commercial sex ads to surface people that are being trafficked. Conceptually, it was difficult to move out of the status quo. And we had some competitors that were doing it for free. And so fortunately, we found a really great landing place for this technology at a company that was able to integrate it into a larger platform for doing the same things. So.

[Michael]

Okay, how'd you get started in that world? What's your background?

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. So I started as a lawyer. My. My background's over. Yeah, yeah. I'm a recovering.

[Nick]

Recovering recovery lawyer.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I tell people that I didn't want to keep practicing, but I went to law school to work against human trafficking. That was like why I showed up on day one.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

That was always been something very important to me. And so practiced for a couple years and then started the tech company after doing human trafficking law and policy. So. And then after that went to the State Department and then on after that to the Rewards for Justice program, supporting them at the State Department from a defense contractor that had a contract to enable their rewards programs using the technologies that we created for them.

[Michael]

Rewards as in literal writing checks to people?

[Ryan]

That's right. Yeah. So you got Bob, bad guy, runs his criminal terrorist network, whatever.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And all of the who's who in the national security world get together and say, all right, we're going to sponsor a ward for this guy and I'll be, you know, 5 million, $10 million, whatever it is, it goes and gets signed by the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State sends it down to the Rewards for justice office. And then their responsibility then is to promote that reward offer and then also receive information. And historically this was done with really just painfully manual channels, so emails and posters and things like that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And this company I worked for modernized this process and it's an incredible program, very effective program.

[Michael]

We're talking rewards for tips or rewards

[Ryan]

for information that could lead to a criminal justice or other outcome for terrorists or criminals or missing Americans. It's a very effective program. You dangle that much money in front of people and you're going to effective

[Michael]

in Afghanistan turn up. I offered a guy 50 million once if he tell me where bin Laden was. His response didn't buy it. He was just like the is Osama bin Laden? Have you ever seen the interviews where they, they talked about those sums of money to like, you know, you're up in Kaust or whatever. If we gave you $50 million, what would you guy goes, I'd probably buy another goat.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. Like no concept.

[Michael]

He had a goat, he'd be like, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

These guys couldn't get their head around millions. For the most part.

[Michael]

They didn't understand what we were talking about. You would run into people, you know, we were there obviously 911 spawned all of that. There are plenty of places like nine. What, who?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

What now? Yeah. We have no idea what you're talking about. What, what? Not only what is a dollar, what is $50 million just completely non sequiturs to them? Yeah, yeah. In the US though, I think that would motivate people a little bit more.

[Nick]

Yeah. Much information though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

I have some information on some people.

[Ryan]

You may be eligible for a reward. Yeah.

[Michael]

Let me see the cases you guys are working on. It might be able to fabricate some stuff.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Message in.

[Michael]

So you say you went from a lawyer. Did you get. You became a sworn federal agent?

[Ryan]

I did, yeah. For the State Department.

[Michael]

Did you have to go to fletc?

[Ryan]

I did, yeah. Good old Flea Tech down in Georgia. Yeah, yeah, I went down there. First two years I did human trafficking investigations as well as hackers. And then I was on msd, so that's their tactical crisis response team.

[Michael]

So it's a gnarly world. I didn't know. I think the very first time I sat down and I talked with Nick. I think like most people, I almost unilaterally equated human trafficking with sex crimes of some type. And then we were talking about, you know, where I grew up in Santa Cruz, just south of Santa Cruz, you know, Castroville or like the artichoke capital of the world and all these huge agricultural green belts. He's talking about the brokers in between, the people who own the farms who were stuffing 30 people into an apartment or hotel workers or the. I just, you know, it's a disconnect. You latch onto, I guess, in your mind, the sexual aspect of it, and you don't realize there's a lot of trafficking in a lot of different ways that goes on directly in front of your face at all times. Yeah, it's a tough world. How was it litigating those type of cases?

[Ryan]

I wasn't a prosecutor. I did policy work, so.

[Michael]

That sounds like the opposite of exciting.

[Ryan]

Yeah, it was. The cool part was, man, it was taking a idea, turning into a law, and then later on down the road, like someone sending me a news article, and they're like, hey, man, someone just got prosecuted under that law that you wrote a year ago, Right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

It wasn't super exciting day to day. Those moments were good moments. But I knew I wanted to get into doing something that was more investigative and dig into that. So this has been a big part of my career since I was in my early 20s. And then the whole Epstein thing came around, and it caught our attention. So.

[Michael]

So for clarity, let's just hit it right on the nose. You think Epstein is still alive?

[Ryan]

I think the evidence shows.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

From the files themselves, that he left that cell alive. Yeah.

[Nick]

Just say it.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, I think he's alive. Yeah. He. The evidence shows that he left the cell alive. And then. Unless something's happened to him between then and now.

[Michael]

Yeah, let's get into it. Well, so when did you start paying attention to him? I hadn't heard his name until it hit pretty mainstream.

[Ryan]

When was that?

[Michael]

You know, honestly, it'd be. It would be tough to put a finger on, I would bet, because of the voracious nature of the documentaries I watched during COVID somewhere between 2020 to 2022, because I had a little bit of time. I believe I surfed to the end of the Internet, as most people did.

[Nick]

You found it?

[Ryan]

Yeah, all the way.

[Michael]

There's the wall in between. There was a lot of documentaries. So I started stumbling across, you know, the documentary about him in Florida and kind of getting rolled up, and then. Which leads to another documentary. And then as that issue, I would say the star was on the rise for all the wrong reasons. Obviously, other documentaries beget other ones. I would say early 2000 and twenties.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I think.

[Michael]

Which is long after his initial you know, getting rolled up in Florida and all that stuff.

[Ryan]

Yeah. A lot of people, I think that's when he came on the radar. You're sitting at home in Covet and you've got nothing else going on.

[Michael]

Literally. Like, how big is the Internet? Yeah, here's two years to go get the answer to that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. When did he hit your radar?

[Ryan]

People talked about the flight logs going to his island before he got rolled up in 2019. Or people talked about like, oh, you know, Clinton's on his flight logs. What is this place? What is this island? So I always had a little bit of curiosity about this.

[Michael]

Was there ever anything actually in those flight logs? Because here's the thing. I also think as a country, we're at a place now where regardless of what the government does, no one's going to believe them.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

If they were to say, here is everything we have. Right after that, a large group of people is gonna. Are gonna say, yeah, but where's the rest of it?

[Ryan]

You're lying liars.

[Michael]

Yeah. And they could claim national security and people aren't going to be satisfied with that. They could claim they released it all. People aren't going to be satisfied with that. So I don't even know if we're ever at a place where we're going to get resolution on this anyway. But I had, had, I had heard that flight logs had been released or that was one of the publicly available things. I start. I think they started finding those because in Florida he got, he got popped in 2009. Right.

[Ryan]

2007, I think.

[Michael]

Okay, 2007.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I think they had started getting flight logs around that time. And I get. I mean, that's a horrible optic. For the Clintons to be on a plane or for Gates, the Microsoft dude, to be on the plane. Does that necessarily equate to being involved in the things that he was invol with?

[Ryan]

Right.

[Michael]

No spat optic, though. I mean, we can at least go that far.

[Ryan]

Yeah. It's super speculative at that point. Right. You look at that and you're like, flight log doesn't mean much.

[Michael]

All between the three of us. I guarantee you, if you go out a couple degrees of Kevin Bacon from our social circles, we each know somebody or have spent time with somebody where they're probably pretty up.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Statistically, that's 9% of American males.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So nine of the hundred.

[Michael]

And I'm just saying, like. Or maybe it's just a crazy dude, you know, or somebody that we know or used to work with that went off the rails. And we would have to in some way, shape or form explain how we know them. Why is their phone number in your phone? Like, listen, I knew this guy 20 years ago when he wasn't crazy.

[Ryan]

Well, they have.

[Michael]

Which is different than being on flight logs to what has now become known as pedophile island. I'm just saying we all. It's tough knowing somebody doesn't necessarily directly equate to knowing what they were into or their illicit behavior, but it is something you need to be able to explain for sure.

[Ryan]

Yeah, for sure. And just having a flight log doesn't actually mean that they were being pedophiles on the island, right?

[Michael]

Yeah, it means they were on a flight is what it means.

[Ryan]

But it was a source of curiosity, I think, for a lot of people. What's going on down there right now?

[Michael]

A full list of names.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

The line here for me on that kind of stuff is 2009, he becomes convicted of very carefully. Well, actually, no, I don't have to worry about it.

[Michael]

Michael, can you pull up his conviction?

[Nick]

I don't have to worry about him suing me. Yes, he comes.

[Michael]

I don't know if you.

[Nick]

Ryan just said, oh, this might be a way to get him out. Okay, let's put this honeypot there.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So, Michael, we'll pull it up exactly

[Michael]

for what he was.

[Nick]

He doesn't get convicted of child trafficking, but his charges are child trafficking related charges. Right. And so like 2008, we were all wrong. Yeah.

[Michael]

Soliciting a prostitute, procuring a person under the age of 18 for prostitution.

[Nick]

Right. So that. That procuring. So that is not called trafficking under the law, but the federal law would call that trafficking. So this is a Florida law, essentially. Right. So that's trafficking.

[Ryan]

And there were major changes federal, like both federally and at many states after this.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Because there aren't 18, there aren't minor prostitutes.

[Nick]

Prostitution is a choice.

[Ryan]

That's not a thing.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Be a minor prostitute. Right. And so that's effectively an admission of. Okay, he was a trafficker, Child trafficker. Procuring a person under the age of 18 also.

[Michael]

Again, and I get my basis for this off of the documentaries that I watched. I feel like he got a lot of a lighter sentence than if either of us.

[Nick]

You think?

[Michael]

I do think. Indeed, I do think, Nick.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

He got. If it was one of the three of us. And I'll throw Michael in there too. Even though Michael's a sweet, Sweet young man, 23 years old. He's innocent. And I Think they we would have gotten a much more substantial sentence and probably wouldn't have been able to go and just leave the jail during the daytime to work every day.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So. And again, that's real weird. That's a tough one to explain. Does that tie back into maybe he needed to go move some money for intelligence agencies.

[Ryan]

He had work to go. Go do. Yeah. Yeah.

[Nick]

Well, there's plenty of state prosecutors who have talked about that. They got visits from men in suits saying, hey, this is going to go away quickly and quietly.

[Michael]

Listen, you. You're here because you represent to this day the CIA, obviously.

[Nick]

Clearly.

[Michael]

Clearly everything you say.

[Nick]

They ask me all the time what I think.

[Michael]

You're a spokesman for the agency.

[Nick]

Yes.

[Michael]

You know how the agency works. Did you ever see bags of hundred dollar bills and big bags at that.

[Nick]

Or aircraft landing.

[Michael]

Exactly.

[Nick]

Nowhere with pallets on them full of cash. Yeah. If you wanted, obviously.

[Michael]

The intelligence community take away their money. They can't do anything without money unless there's. I mean, my favorite example would be Harrison Ford paying for a helicopter with a company check in. Clear and present danger. However, as much as I want that to be a documentary, I'm pretty sure the agency doesn't roll around with a CIA checkbook, even though I would take

[Nick]

one because it doesn't. Doesn't say CIA on it or it's cash.

[Michael]

Right. So money. My point is this. And I was saying this when I had kiriakou on. It's a uniquely US perspective to think that the CIA has got their cape and shield on because to the rest of the world they're gangsters. They're doing illegal shit.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And that is powered by money brokers. That's what I'm saying. The money has to get there. Social brokers.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I say this a lot to law enforcement that we work with at deliver fund. They're like, man, like, you guys are pretty good at putting all this together. And they're like, well, you. You know, because they'll like somehow think that. So it was a special agent at the CIA, but that's not a federal agent. Those are two very different things. Right. No arrest powers or anything like that. So they're like, well, you know, I'm like, no, like, I don't. Like, I was never law enforcement. I was a professional criminal.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I went over to other countries, I broke their laws, I evaded their law enforcement officers almost by doctrine. Pretty good at it. Yeah. You know, it was. Was incentivized. Yeah. And so, yeah, like it's. It's it's, it's a criminal organization in that the organization goes over to other countries and does things that break their laws, that crime things are there. It's their whole point.

[Michael]

Every other country is going to look at and say, hey, stop doing that. Meanwhile, every other one of those countries likely has an sbi.

[Nick]

They do exactly the same thing.

[Michael]

That's what I'm saying.

[Nick]

Yeah. So you think that slope could potentially become a little slippery?

[Michael]

Only every day and twice on Sunday.

[Nick]

Right.

[Michael]

You know, again, talk with John, he was, you know, the CIA is, in his words, largely unfixable without oversight. And the reality is if you really wanted to shut that stuff down or control it, it has to come through money. I don't even think the oversight would fix it. If you take away those aircraft pallets full of hundred dollar bills, the job gets a little harder. But somebody has to make sure that those Hyundai's get there. And personally, that to me is the simplest explanation for who Epstein was and why he was allowed to do what he did.

[Ryan]

Yeah, he's got associates all over the files that are people who would want that money and want that money moved.

[Michael]

And it makes sense why he would approach other intelligence agencies like, listen, do you guys need money moved? This is what I do. I don't know What, I take 10. And they're like, whatever, here you go.

[Ryan]

You could see these negotiations in the emails. He'll be like, all right, my amount is 10 million, or my colleague is 10 million, I'm 25 million. Read broker things with the DOJ for getting people out of hot water. Right. So there's plenty of evidence of this sort of. We know this. There's a two tiers of the justice system. There's the one that you and I have and Nick, and there's the ones that like guys like Epstein have. And you can see the evidence of this. Yeah. Where he did not get prosecuted federally because at the time Acosta was the prosecutor for the Southern District of New York. And the Daily Beast, there's a journalist there named Vicki Ward and she released or she made a comment about how she learned from a senior White House advisor. So this is third hand at this point, but take it for what it's worth that he was told by Acosta, as he was being considered for the Labor Secretary position, to leave Epstein alone. It's above your pay grade. He's intelligence. So again, third hand, but there's reporting that connects these pieces back to that world.

[Michael]

Yeah. It makes. And from a simple approach, when people start Saying again, he was the Mossad deep cover agent. And I'm like, I don't think so. I think he was a relatively ugly dude who had a lisp and was kind of short and loved money and power and influence. And he got that by doing the things that he did, and it enabled him to do the broken shit that he liked to do as a human being. Pretty simple, you know, I mean, there's.

[Nick]

Intelligence agencies are not law enforcement. And that's, I think, something that's so important for people.

[Michael]

They're kind of the opposite of law enforcement.

[Nick]

And so they do not have to. Like, a law enforcement officer witnesses the commission of a crime. That law enforcement officer has to do something, right? Like that's part of it for the intelligence agency is like, they witness the commission of a crime, they're no different than anybody else. They can choose to or not to do something, right?

[Michael]

Or let's add to that. They could choose to put that in the old Rolodex for leverage later on, maybe to either bring somebody closer or push them farther away or you're moving

[Nick]

all of this stuff. Hey, we have this other stuff. Can you move that? And one of the things people just have to understand is you don't find out what's going on in hell by talking to angels. You got to go talk to the demons, right? And so there's, you know, what happens when you have people who are constantly immersed in that environment for decades, trained manipulators, right? I'm. I'm lucky in that. Being a operator, whatever that means, being a gun guy at the agency. Like, I'm not. That wasn't. It wasn't the skill set that I was selected for and that I was hired for, right? But you. You watched. One of the things that was really interesting about headquarters when I finally got assigned there was you would watch intelligence case officers literally running their own little intelligence operations against their fellow case officers inside the building. Right? Because. Because when you're in an environment where everybody gets paid the same, right? GS pay scale, everyone's just getting paid the same. The only way that you're going to get paid is to get promoted. And what is power inside that building? Knowledge. Information. Right? That. And so. So people aren't sharing information because that's the currency, right? So.

[Michael]

So if you're battling for budget and relevancy, I just go Back to the Prelate 11 military.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael]

We wouldn't tell the people in the neighboring building who wore the same uniforms as us if they would be like, go yourself, because I had to prepare for the big mish. Maybe a non permissive shipboarding in the Middle East. You never know, big mish might come up.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

But what was I really doing? One just passing on generational trauma because I had no understanding actually of what was going on at the time. And I had watched the senior people do the same thing. So I was just.

[Nick]

So now you're gonna do it?

[Michael]

I was repeating behavior without real understanding of what was behind it. But everybody just wanted to be the person that they called if something kicked off. And so you're battling, you fight your friends because there's no enemies at the moment. And you want the budget, you want the relevance, you want the phone call if something happens. It was amazing. And then we had to all work together post 9 11. That was a real shit show until

[Ryan]

we figured that out.

[Nick]

Right, but we did. But, but there was. The incentives were properly aligned, right?

[Michael]

Finally. Yes.

[Nick]

So. But in the intelligence community, question I would level is, is it possible to align the incentives when the currency is special knowledge? I have special knowledge, you don't, therefore I am more important than you. So like, what is that even possible to fix?

[Michael]

I don't know if it's possible to align them all.

[Nick]

So, I mean, JSOC operator allegedly doing work with the agency, probably on a relatively, relatively regular basis every night. So how many times was it JSOC operators asking questions and some CIA analyst or CIA case officer, somebody in that chain of command is like, well, we can't really tell you that, but we can tell you this part, so why can't we tell you that? Right? Well, this guy. Well, we need you to go get this guy. Do it to us all the time. And we're like, we work there. I, we're wearing their blue badge and they're like, well, we need you to go do a thing. I'm like, okay, like, who is this guy? Like, is this guy a guy who makes bombs or is this an accountant? Like, it's kind of important to know on the action end, right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And, well, we can't really tell you what he does and what he does for us. Right, so. So you want to give me no information about the person that you're telling me to go get. But. So, like, I'm going to treat this person as if they are the most dangerous person on the planet unless you tell me otherwise. So if you don't tell me otherwise, I promise you I'm gonna hurt your relationship with them. I promise you that. It's gonna happen. Oh, okay. Well, I guess. I guess we'll tell you, but. But that whole thing, like. Yeah, it's not like I have a TSSCI with a full scope poly just like they do. So why is it that you won't tell me something as simple as what this guy does for a living? Special knowledge. Knowledge is the currency.

[Michael]

Even at the operator level, we all had tsscis minus the full scope polys. But yeah, it was always means and methods, you know, or sources. Or this. Yeah, we can't really tell you. Yeah, knowledge comes leverage within the right circles for sure. Some knowledge is completely useless in areas,

[Nick]

but, yeah, most of mine.

[Michael]

Yeah, in the right circles. All right, Ryan, lay out your case.

[Ryan]

All right, let's start with it. So we believe he's alive.

[Michael]

And the reason I use the term we. Well, are we talking about in this room?

[Ryan]

I. I'm not gonna speak.

[Michael]

I'm not there yet.

[Ryan]

Not gonna speak for you guys. I got. So my co. Founder is a guy named Alex. He's great. He. Former military guy, also about to be a lawyer. We pieced this together after looking at the files and really did a deep dive into this. Initially, out of curiosity, it's the first time we've been able to peek behind the curtain.

[Michael]

Which files are you referencing?

[Ryan]

The Epstein files.

[Michael]

Okay. What has been just publicly released?

[Ryan]

What's been released by the doj.

[Michael]

How much of them do you think we actually have?

[Ryan]

Oh, man, not enough. Yeah, yeah, a fraction. Because Blanche has come out and said, that's it. Party's over. Pool's closed. No more. You're not getting anything else. So we have clearly a cover up, Right? The actions of Bondi Patel trump Blanche. We. We all know this. There's a cover up here, right? Of what we have. It's pretty damning of what just what we've got. Right? So then that begs the question, is what's being covered up? We don't know. But you can assume that if this is what they gave us. What. What's covered up? What is held back. So we took this information, and a good criminal investigator thinks in terms of a timeline, right? What happened when. Yeah, yeah, what happened when. So what we do is start with who was this guy? And work our way through all of the events. Major events. I think we have categorized like 22 major events that we walk through here and arrive at this conclusion at the end of it. There's three options. Only three. He either killed himself or he was murdered or he walked out. Like, I don't see a fourth option. Yeah, My name is Shannon Maldonado.

[Michael]

I'm the founder of Yaoi, a gift shop.

[Ryan]

From the lens of artists and handmade objects, I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. All of the tools for reading your

[Nick]

sales, like planning inventory, they're just right

[Ryan]

there on your dashboard. For anyone starting a small business, the

[Nick]

biggest thing I can tell you, it

[Ryan]

doesn't have to be perfect. Shopify can help you build upon it. Start your free trial on shopify.com they're

[Michael]

doing a really good job of hiding him if he's still in prison. Yeah, I guess that would be the fourth option.

[Ryan]

Still in there. Yeah.

[Nick]

There's a hidden room. He's still there.

[Ryan]

Of those three options, him being alive is the simplest. It has the fewest problems. Okay, so we lay this out and we start with, like, who. Who he was. So you talk about the intelligence connection. The FBI does a warrant on his Manhattan home. They open a safe, and that safe is a passport, an Austrian passport.

[Michael]

What year is this?

[Ryan]

This is his second arrest.

[Michael]

So this is still in this recent one.

[Ryan]

This is pre2019, but after the. After the second one. Right, gotcha. He has a Austrian passport that's pulled out of here with an alias on it. With travel stamps.

[Michael]

With his picture.

[Ryan]

With his picture. His picture. Different name. Travel stamps. So who can create those?

[Michael]

I was going to say that in and of itself is a heavy lift.

[Nick]

Very. Because one of the things that. And I guess it's just for the audience, because you guys know this, but one of the things people don't understand is like, oh, how hard can it be to make a false passport? That's actually not that hard. It's getting it into the passport system.

[Michael]

Yes. Making something that looks fake and making something that's functional are two very different things.

[Ryan]

Totally.

[Nick]

So, yeah. So your passport is in an international, essentially, passport database. I'm oversimplifying it, but that basically is the way it works. And so if there is a fake passport, that passport is not in that database. It's actually a real problem for intelligence agencies. Right. Especially you go into places like Dubai and you're getting retinal scans and all

[Michael]

that kind of biometrics.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michael]

How should we say this might have changed the game.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

A lot. Right.

[Michael]

It's harder to get places when, I don't know, you're traveling and not supposed to be.

[Nick]

And here's the list of countries you can never go again. Go to again. Because you went there under a different name. Damn it. They have good beaches.

[Ryan]

They got you.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, they've got good beaches. But.

[Michael]

Well, and it's probably okay. I mean, so that's a feat. It's a. To get.

[Nick]

To get the passport and have travel well.

[Michael]

And people need to understand that there are. How do I talk about this broadly?

[Nick]

It's always the problem, isn't it?

[Michael]

Yeah. There are mechanisms to get legitimate travel documents, like a passport that would have your picture and not your true name on it. But those are function and function because they are legitimate travel documents. In my experience. Those are always associated with government programs or entities explicitly for the purpose that you are serving with that entity. So it is possible to do.

[Nick]

And it is taken back when you are done. Allegedly.

[Michael]

And there is also a very robust and thorough handover if you were to go allegedly to a staging place to depart where you leave one identity behind and assume another one. Because what you don't want to do is get caught with a driver's license that maybe says Bob and a passport that says Frank. Yes. So it's controlled. And like you said, and most of the time, allegedly, when you come back into the country, there's an also reverse process to ensure that there isn't overlap because those documents are fucking real.

[Ryan]

It didn't appear to be a fraudulent passport, which is what we dealt with at the State Department.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

There's fraudulent passports.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Which someone creates at home on their printer or whatever. Right.

[Michael]

I don't know if they work so well when they scan, though, or the RFID chip or the other. That's what I'm saying. There's something that can look fake. And then there are legitimate documents. In.

[Nick]

In my experience, they're not fake documents.

[Michael]

Correct. And those are almost always associated with, if not exclusively associated with intelligence agencies or government entities.

[Ryan]

Right. So somehow he gets this passports discovered in a safe, which is this first clue to really understand who he is. Right. We know all of the big things about who he was, his associates, and he was this alleged billionaire and he had the island. But then he has these connections that are mysterious. How do you get a document that you can travel on with entry and exit stamps demonstrating that's actually been done? Consular offices can create these, but so can intelligence services. And so it's the first piece of evidence that came out in the files that was really mystifying. Right. What. What is he? Who was he. Was he created, was he manufactured, was he made for a specific purpose? We Start with that. We lead with that piece of evidence. And we start by saying that each piece of evidence by themselves isn't going to be necessarily a smoking gun. You weigh them differently as you do with evidence. Right. Some of them mean more, some of them mean less. You can give a prosaic explanation for most of this stuff, Right. Where you could, you could dismiss it as he had this novelty passport that, you know, he bought. It was just like this fun trinket that he had. Like.

[Michael]

I mean, that's a pretty interesting novelty item.

[Ryan]

People make this argument, though. Sure.

[Michael]

They make you the argument. I mean, it might. A novelty pair of sunglasses would probably be a little bit tortoise shell perhaps or some type of illicit frame would be a little bit more, you know, scrimshaw or something like that would be. Yeah. A legit travel document. That's a different level, man.

[Ryan]

It is. It's a different level and they fall flat on their face. And this is what I'm getting at with these three options. You have to start stacking up in each column for either he killed himself or he was murdered or he left alive. Which one has the fewest problems. And it starts with who he was. We line up up front. This guy was someone special beyond just having money. He had access to something that we don't have access to. Most people don't. Right.

[Nick]

Unless you don't care how much money you have, trying to run essentially your own private intelligence operation at a nation state intelligence level. That ain't gonna happen.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Michael]

I think that's what he was trying to do.

[Nick]

I don't know. I don't know. But, but even if that was. Someone said that's the argument. It's like, oh no, he was essentially private intelligence. All right, well like we have lots of experience with private intelligence and like that ain't it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So I don't know until, until I'm not so sure. Until the official folks get involved.

[Michael]

Yeah. I'm not so sure he had the intelligence and I mean IQ to be in the business.

[Nick]

That's, that's a different argument. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan]

Which goes to this discussion of who he was. He didn't seem that bright.

[Michael]

I think he was a useful idiot for intelligence agencies to launder money. I truly think that's the simplest solution.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

He didn't come across as particularly intelligent like you read the emails. He can't put punctuation together. He can't, he can't write a full sentence. And you wonder how this guy, elevated from a school teacher without a degree in the Dalton School, one of the most prestigious schools in the nation, and then gets lifted into Bear Stearns, this guy, which.

[Nick]

Which questions how he got that job in the first place. But. But all of that stuff is still like. Can be argued around. Right. But you're setting the stage.

[Ryan]

Setting the stage. So there's all the irregularities that happen in the correctional facility that he's in that we can go into. I don't know how much you want to go into those.

[Michael]

Yeah, we have terabytes.

[Ryan]

All right. Yeah, I think.

[Michael]

I don't know. Michael, keep track of it. He's. Look, he's watching the red lights and.

[Ryan]

And Nick is putting together some really interesting stuff on this. But what we know is when he was in that facility.

[Michael]

First time or second time?

[Ryan]

Second time. So this is. This is post Florida.

[Nick]

This is mcc.

[Ryan]

The mcc. The Metropolitan Correctional Center. So he's in this facility and he gets really some special treatment. So he has this alleged suicide attempt. He has a roommate. And this roommate is moved away from him. He's in this special housing unit, which violates protocol. So there's this big IG investigation afterwards. So the office of the Inspector General looks at what happened in this facility, and the first departure from what normal protocol requires is the removal of the roommate. So now he's left alone in this cell by himself, no roommate. Despite a call to give him a roommate. The roommate recounts this as well. Right. So there's multiple people that are testifying to this.

[Michael]

It's like an anti suicide policy, essentially. There's two people. Okay, that's right.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Somebody screamed for help. Someone starts hanging themselves from the ceiling.

[Michael]

Yeah, okay.

[Ryan]

Yeah. So Epstein is in the special housing unit. He has suicide watch protocols removed because he allegedly tries to commit suicide. And then his enhanced monitoring is removed. Then his roommate is taken away, so he's left by himself. And that brings us up to the night of his death. This is where these anomalies compound in a bizarre way, where if you have any one piece of this, you can chalk it up to government incompetence. You can chalk it up to like, this is just a camera failing in the government, man. They get these cameras from the cheapest bidder. Right? Like, these are not going to work half the time anyway. Right.

[Michael]

That actually is a factually true statement.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. Stuff breaks all the time.

[Michael]

No, the lowest bidder is 100. Factually true in my experience.

[Nick]

Acceptable substitute is what they call it. Yeah, right, right.

[Michael]

Like I want this camera.

[Ryan]

No, no, you can't have the nice ones. You get black and white. Yeah, yeah. So the cameras here, we know about the cameras, they go down and then after they go down at midnight, there's a missing minute of footage that's not in there. This is released in this transparency effort where they try to say, here's all your camera footage.

[Michael]

Yeah, I remember. Somebody caught it.

[Ryan]

Nothing's going on.

[Michael]

Not only did somebody catch this, but didn't. Wasn't some metadata left behind from the editing software that you use, like Adobe or DaVinci Resolve or something?

[Ryan]

Yeah, Adobe Premiere.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

There's metadata showing this was edited.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So there's sloppiness all throughout this where there's just incompetence and sloppiness at all parts of this cover up. Where you don't want to be this, like, person that jumps to conspiracies, where you're. They're entertaining is the. The seductive part of them. People want to believe them, but if the evidence takes you into one, you got to reckon with it. Right. And so there's this incompetence that appears at many places in this. One of which is Adobe Premiere Pro, used to edit this footage. Not all of it's released. There's a missing minute. Yeah. So from the jump, we know there's something really weird going on with the footage. The guards fall asleep. They have responsibility of providing 30 minute intervals of checking on the cell, and they don't. And they get a deferred prosecution agreement where they lie about this, and then instead of being prosecuted, they get to just walk away clean.

[Michael]

Is that deferred prosecution agreement?

[Ryan]

Yeah. So they don't have any real consequence for lying about this. So all these anomalies by themselves, you could look at these guards are going to fall asleep. It's the middle of the night. They are going to shop on the Internet. They're not going to check on these. It's a federal employee. Like, how much do they really care about this? Yeah. And then it gets into a mathematical question, which was Nick has done some really cool stuff to look at. All right, fine. Each one of these things by themselves we can write off and give some kind of explanation for. But when you paint a picture with all of these and you look at just even in the correctional facility, what are the odds that this could happen?

[Nick]

So Ryan calls me.

[Ryan]

Oh, man.

[Nick]

What was this, like, six months ago or something?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And this is two days of my life I'll never get back. So thanks for that.

[Ryan]

Yeah, you're welcome. Enjoy.

[Nick]

So he. He calls me. He's like, hey, dude, I want to run something by you. All right, Right. And so he starts laying out. He's like, it literally leads with. I think Epstein is still alive. And I'm like, here we go.

[Ryan]

I tend to come out hot like that.

[Michael]

I would rather have somebody lead with that than string me along for 30 minutes.

[Nick]

So he's like.

[Michael]

He's like, don't bur the lead on. Just hit me on the nose with it.

[Ryan]

Yeah, here you go.

[Nick]

Like, all right, the. The traumatic brain injury is kicking in, right? And like, here we go. Time to start finding a home. But then he starts laying out his case, and there's a lot of stuff post death that are like bigger smoking guns. He hasn't even. Right. He hasn't even gotten into yet. But so he starts laying out his case.

[Ryan]

He.

[Nick]

He gives me. Gives me a document, and he's like, here, here you go. And so I was like, all right. So very first thing that. I don't know when I learned to start doing this, but I think people's opinions suck. Just generally everybody has an emotional tie to the reason that they believe the thing that they believe. And, yeah, it's human nature. Yeah. Right. And so. Okay, so how do you control for that? Math is a pretty darn good way because math tends to be pretty unemotional. This is kind of one of the reasons I like math. So I was like, all right, let's. Let's just see what a quick look of the statistical probability of just the container of the problems at the mcc. Let's look at just that. And I didn't build a Python script for this. I just ran it as best I could, just real quick. Took like 30 minutes.

[Michael]

I love that you think I know what a Python script is.

[Nick]

Computer program. Computer program is like, when you want to know, you get it. Right.

[Michael]

Michael, do you know what a Python script is?

[Ryan]

I know what Python is.

[Michael]

We know that. First off, when he says Python, he's not talking about.

[Nick]

Yeah, oh, coding.

[Michael]

Let me just go ahead and I will translate for you what Michael means when he says he knows what Python means. He's probably in your database somewhere.

[Nick]

Yeah, probably. How is your boyfriend doing, by the way, anyway?

[Ryan]

He's not enjoying prison. So I.

[Nick]

So I looked at it real quick, and the number came out to 1 in 79 quintillion was the probability odds

[Michael]

of what you had just discussed, Ryan,

[Nick]

the things that happened that all those things went wrong just in the mcc.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Nick]

And he actually left some documents out in the original one. And so I was like, well, that's really interesting because any mathematician knows when you get an answer that big, the general consensus is it's wrong. So ran it again. Ran it again.

[Michael]

Meaning you're putting in integers that are.

[Nick]

Yeah, like you did something wrong.

[Michael]

You have. Okay, you have a mistake in your

[Nick]

system equation is wrong.

[Michael]

So big.

[Nick]

Yeah, you're wrong. So I did it again. Did it again, did it again. Kept coming out, the same thing. I was like, okay, so put it all in an Excel spreadsheet, sent it to you. And as like, that's what the math shows. But what I did was, because it was a quick look, I treated every single, every single issue as if it was an independent variable. And we all know that, like when things go wrong, it's never one independent variable, right? It's, it's a stack of problems that leads to some type of catastrophic outcome, right? So think of like your, your risk assessments for operations and things like that. So I then. Time to break out the Python, right?

[Michael]

And so Michael's attention.

[Nick]

So I was like, all right, so we, I put together a script and I was like, all right. And I want it to be. And I think you're, I gave it to you. I think you're publicly saying that you're going to put it on GitHub.

[Ryan]

That's right. Yeah.

[Nick]

So we'll make it publicly available so

[Ryan]

people can scrutinize this. Like, check it, check all of this, attack all of it. I want people to be super skeptical, to dig into it, to say, hey, that doesn't sound right. I'm gonna look into it. We put all of it out there.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Epsteinisintdead.org we lay it all out, come prove me wrong. I don't want to be right about this. It's not like fun to be right

[Nick]

about because of the consequence of what it means. So anyway, put all the code together and started running scenarios. Ran 12 different scenarios and containerized each thing, right? So basically a way to say that is taking like, okay, the things that happened at the MCC but that were just security related, guards falling asleep, camera going out, sticking those in one container and then controlling to make sure that it's called double counting, right? So controlling for double counting to make sure that the container doesn't become a, it doesn't have its own internal multiplication effect. So it's a way of saying that, all right, this, this is the most damning piece of evidence and it's got a value of 8. There's four other pieces of evidence that might be 2 and 1. So we're not going to go ahead and calculate this as an 11, we're just going to calculate this entire container as an eight. That's it. So we're not double counting anything. And then for anybody listening who's interested, we used a Bayesian methodology and using a Cast Rafferty scale for actually, for actually calculating the value of each one of these anomalies. Well, how do you get a baseline for the value of the anomalies? The Bureau of Justice Statistics, they actually will tell you how. What, like what is the base rate for cameras going out in, in prisons? What is the base rate for suicides? Right, all of those things. And so try to stack the deck as much in the favor of the official narrative as possible.

[Michael]

Yeah, Estimating low, if you will.

[Nick]

That's a man.

[Ryan]

Their argument, getting the benefit of the doubt as generous as possible.

[Nick]

That is a lot of work. Right. It's like, okay, this is a smoking gun, but I'm going to just disregard it. This is a smoking gun. I'm going to disregard it, reduce the

[Michael]

value I'm going to assign to it to at least account for, to the standard base rate.

[Nick]

Standard base rate as published by the Department of Justice. More importantly, all of the Reddit thread hearsay, all of that stuff threw it all out. The only documentation or the only evidence I used in the math and that actually got rated in the math was the DOJ released official from a court of law, like the official stuff. Right. So that really cuts down on the amount of stuff that you can use. Do you know what the probability of all of the things that happen? I think there was 14 anomalies that happened happened in the MCC. The probability of that happening was it was one, it was one in five times 10 to the power of 30. So that is, that's a lot. Yeah. So that's five times 10 with 30 zeros behind it. I believe, and I'm probably going to get this wrong, but I leave, I believe that's, I believe that's 10 non million. Right. So quadrillion four trillion. Right. This is all the way to nine trillion.

[Michael]

And the odds were one in that.

[Nick]

One in that. So what does that mean to like people? Like how do you wrap your mind around, around, around numbers that big? So. And I think this kind of proves his point. It is, and finding this analogy was quite frankly a lot of math and really hard too. But call it the royal fresh, the royal flush problem. So it is the roughly the same probability of you getting of a single player sitting down at a poker table and getting dealt a single suit royal flush on the first hand. Right? So think about that. It not. So is it impossible? No, but highly improbable. And I would say that's probably where the line of improbable meets impossible. And so if you sat down at a poker table and the person you were playing against got dealt a single suit royal flush on the very first deal on the first hand, what is the only logical explanation? They're very lucky the deck was stacked.

[Michael]

Oh, sorry.

[Nick]

Only logical explanation. And so that's where, when Ryan called me about this and I ended up staying up till like two in the morning.

[Michael]

Well, you need to take less go pills.

[Nick]

I know.

[Michael]

Don't take them past.

[Nick]

Well, that's the only reason I was able to do it. You can get yours at go pills and go gummies dot com.

[Michael]

Caffeine late in the day is not good, man. You gotta be able to wind it down.

[Nick]

Yeah, I call him back next day, I was like, dude, like I, I will, I want to know more. And so when you put all of the evidence. So then he gave me all the evidence, right, and you put all of the evidence together, the stuff outside the mcc, like you put all those different pieces together, only the court documented stuff still. And you try to make the number as small as possible by like just stacking the odds in your favor over and over and over and over and over. I finally got it down to the probability. And I should say, what is the probability here? Like, why do I keep saying one in and he's giving you three. Three outcomes. To me this is actually a binary question. It is a self inflicted outcome or it is not a self inflicted outcome of which leaving the MCC alive is an option. Right. So not self inflicted outcome is all kinds of options. Self inflicted outcome, suicide. It is what it is. Right? So to me it was like, is anything else even an option? So when you break it down to that binary way, what we found was that when you put everything together and you steel man, the argument in the absolute favor of the official government narrative, it's 1 in 810,000,

[Michael]

that's still pretty ridiculous odds.

[Nick]

Yeah, that is a ridiculous amount of work to get the number that low. And if you take, if you run models and again, mathematicians and computer scientists and data scientists, the Python will be open on GitHub, like run with it. If you, if you take, if you start taking out the most damning pieces of evidence, like you just exclude it all together. The lowest I could get to was 1 in 23,000. So like, no matter what you do on this, mathematically it is highly improbable. And I would, I would go so far as to say illogical, that the official narrative, the self inflicted outcome is a, is not just improbable, but it's actually illogical. And that's the problem here is because we know how arrogant people are in the highest levels of our government. And I don't think this is like everybody in the government a big grand cabal and any of that kind of stuff.

[Michael]

And that's the mistake people make. You say the government and they forget that there's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And it actually doesn't take but a fraction of those people.

[Nick]

This could be done with probably 20

[Michael]

people to weaponize entire sectors.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, 20 of the right people. Right. I mean, we watched publicly the DOJ get weaponized. Right. How many people were involved in that? A couple dozen probably. Right. I mean, it's not everybody at the doj. And so when you start looking at it through that lens, you're like, okay, the government narrative around Epstein is, is just illogical. And that the, that only comes from arrogance of people saying, well, it's true because I said it is.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And so when you have that level of arrogance, like, they're not going to backstop this narrative to that level to keep some, you know, hobby nerd like me from running a Python script to try to look at the probabilities like they're not thinking that far ahead. It's like, we're going to put this in the media. It's worked before. It's going to be, it's going to be fine. And I think the point here is that I don't really care about Epstein. I mean, personally, I hope he's dead just because he very clearly was a monster. But that's not the point. The point is that if the official narrative is illogical and improbable, that proves the thesis of rotten corruption at the highest levels of our government. And that's the problem.

[Michael]

Yeah, I agree.

[Ryan]

Yeah. That's. This is bigger than Epstein. And people have asked me this question, they've said, well, what do you care about this guy? He's in his, what, he's got to be approaching his 70s now.

[Michael]

That's an easy way to dismiss a bigger problem, though. It's just that he just happens to be the most recognizable face to the symptoms of what you're talking about.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And if anybody thinks, let's assume my hypothesis or Conjecture about him being a money launderer is correct. You think he wasn't one of many? You know there's a playbook. That's what I'm saying. He's not the only guy out there doing that. There's no way intelligence communities are gonna have all their money on one show pony. Sorry, not happening. Because they need to be able to continue to operate and move shit around. Like it just makes sense that he would be one of men many.

[Ryan]

Yeah, for sure. I mean there's a playbook. And they can rinse and repeat and do this again. And probably doing it again right now.

[Michael]

So what are you seeing outside of the mcc?

[Ryan]

All right, here's where it gets interesting. So I'll give you. We'll get to the smoking guns here. Okay, we got a smoking gun that's about to come up. But before I explain that, we need to understand what happened with his money. So he met with his lawyers up to 12 hours per day, right up until his death at the mcc. At the mcc he restructures his entire estate. It's put into a trust and will called the 1953 trust. And this is executed two days before his alleged death.

[Michael]

Why are you allowed to do that while in prison? For money related and transferred. I mean until this I'm not, I'm not for violating anybody's rights. And I have no idea where the legal threshold on this is. But if you're in jail for that type of stuff or being investigated for that type of stuff stuff, wouldn't it be smarter to just kind of lock everything in place until it adjudicates itself?

[Nick]

It sure.

[Michael]

Right.

[Nick]

I don't know. He's a lawyer.

[Michael]

I'd be like saying you're in the middle of a bankruptcy proceeding. But hold on. While I'm in the middle of this, let me just restructure everything that I have to protect myself in the event that this thing doesn't go my way. Yeah, that would defeat the purpose of the entire exercise.

[Ryan]

Yeah, he had pretty much wide open authority to meet with his lawyers as much as he wanted to, which do

[Michael]

most people who would be in containment. I mean, I know you have attorney. I know you have the right to meet with your attorney. Is there a limit on the time? Is that more than the average person would probably get?

[Ryan]

That's a good question. I don't know what the actual protocol is in that facility.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

But I do know he got some special considerations. Like he was able to make an unmonitored phone call after meeting with his lawyer. So there's evidence that he was getting some special treatment.

[Michael]

Why would they ever let anybody make an unmonitored phone call?

[Ryan]

Bizarre. It's a great question. So we know that at least he's getting some special treatment. And he restructures his entire estate. And what this means is it protects. It does a few things. It protects any of these survivors of his abuse from making a claim against his estate. So really difficult for them to make a claim against the state now. And it also, in the trust, makes it very difficult to ascertain the beneficiaries of this money.

[Michael]

And he's doing this all while in law.

[Nick]

And it completely avoids probate court should he be dead.

[Ryan]

Correct.

[Nick]

So which means no discovery, none of

[Ryan]

that, and no one competing over his will. And in probate or, you know, whatever his estate would look like going through probate. So makes the move that I would make if I was going to fake my death, get all the money, right? And it was up to. It was $577 million. So no small amount of money. And he puts this into a legal vehicle that through a circuitous route, he could obtain access after leaving the facility. And then fast forward to what's recovered from his cell. And this is where it gets really interesting. Are you familiar with this?

[Michael]

I'm assuming you mean the cell he was in, not like a cell phone?

[Ryan]

Correct.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

In his cell that he's in?

[Michael]

No.

[Ryan]

Okay. It's beyond me how this is not being talked about everywhere. I cannot understand this. This is.

[Michael]

Michael, warm up your fingers.

[Ryan]

This is an unfathomable man. You can.

[Nick]

I'm just gonna say you can. Do you want Michael to pull this up?

[Ryan]

Yeah. You can go to epsteinisinddead.org and if you control F for smoking gun, it'll pull you down to this card. And we can pull up the visual on this card. It's. It's. It's pretty interesting. There's two pieces of legal paper. What's that?

[Nick]

Control.

[Michael]

After what?

[Ryan]

Search for smoking gun.

[Michael]

Okay, first off, what does Control F do?

[Nick]

Find?

[Ryan]

Yeah,

[Michael]

It's like Python. Control F. Who do you guys think you're talking?

[Ryan]

What's going on? I'm not an IT guy.

[Michael]

I just look for the little. It's a magnifying glass.

[Nick]

Yeah, same thing.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Nick]

It's just a keyboard shortcut.

[Michael]

Okay, so what do they call the key?

[Nick]

The apple.

[Ryan]

Oh, yeah, there we go.

[Michael]

Special apple key.

[Ryan]

Click View app.

[Nick]

No, just Apple.

[Michael]

Is that command or Apple?

[Nick]

Yeah, Command.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Damn it. I know what happens if you hit apple F. Same thing. Okay, good.

[Ryan]

Should.

[Michael]

Anyway, I first thought. I thought that was a north facing penis and a south facing penis. I'm being totally honest. I caught that other corner of my eye and I'm just letting you know what I thought.

[Nick]

Like I very clearly were marines. In his cell.

[Ryan]

I think that's what's redacted down there. I think that's what that.

[Nick]

The.

[Ryan]

The north facing penis. So if you scroll just a little bit.

[Michael]

So you're saying that what we're looking at is a smoking gun.

[Ryan]

This is the smoking gun.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

And I'll walk you through it. This is a handwritten note that's discovered in his cell. And it's one of two. So this is the first one, and in a second, when he scrolls down, we'll show you the second one.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

So the first thing that hits most people's eye is this drawing in the bottom right. It says, brad, this is the nearest airport, Bradley International Airport. Above that it says jet. And then either us prop or versus prop. In the first case, it would be indicating. Okay, is this plane going to be a jet or is it going to be a prop?

[Michael]

Yeah, the jet performance, let's say, versus propeller performance versus.

[Ryan]

That's exactly right. So he draws this airport, the nearest one. And there's this consideration of what kind of plane is at the airport. And what's interesting is that this appears to be written in a different color. See how it's a little bit brighter?

[Michael]

Have they confirmed that this is actually his handwriting?

[Ryan]

They confirmed that they got this from his cell.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

After he died. Okay, so someone else could have written this. Yeah, sure. But it was recovered out of his cell after his death.

[Michael]

Death.

[Ryan]

And then so said that just real quick, say this is a smoking gun. It begs the question, well, why would he leave this in his cell? You're not going to throw that in the trash on the way out. And then I remember, oh, they were talking about trafficking and eating kids over Gmail. Right. So there's some hubris here. There's some, like, I have people to clean this up.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So it gets left in here. The second thing that immediately catches my attention is what's underlined there in the top middle. You see the three underlines under where it says red? That says red notice. Why is the guy.

[Michael]

Where is that? Oh, yep, I got it.

[Ryan]

He's about to kill himself. Worried about a red notice.

[Michael]

Isn't that. Isn't that an intelligence alert? A red notice. It flags you

[Nick]

Interpol alert for like, basically International fugitive. Okay, so if any Interpol country sees it, flags you, you know Andy arrested him.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Real simple.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

So if you're gonna leave jail and everyone's looking for you, you're worried about red notices.

[Michael]

Does the US have an equivalent of a red notice, or did we just put you on the TV show America's Most Wanted?

[Nick]

No. So it US Participates in Interpol. So, yeah. So State Department would just put out the red notice, which would go to Interpol, and it gets distributed through all the Interpol countries. Right.

[Ryan]

You can be flagged if you're put on manifests. They can see that. Yeah. Yeah. So all I can get pulled at the top. It's a little hard to read some of this stuff. So the. Some of this is illegible. He had notoriously horrible handwriting. Yeah, there we go. So some of these words are difficult to read. And there's a guy who's a forensic analyst that does a great job. He's a. He's a doctor in this. And he goes through each of these one, one by one. But the things that really stand out to me. Are you seeing the top right, where it says blackmail and then the dollar sign? Yeah, this is one of the biggest pieces of this for me. Because he knows that when he gets out, he's got to get the money somehow. Right? Blackmail dollars. Right. Take that for what it's worth. He's allegedly running this brokering scheme where he has leverage over lots and lots of people. That's a great way to get money. Right? Call them up like, hey, man, I'm gonna leak this video of you with this 14 year old unless you wire me. Right. So a little bit of speculation there, but that seems to be where his headspace is. I can't read the word above that. The word beneath that says guards.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So he's thinking about money. He's thinking about guards.

[Nick]

Word above it appears to say banking.

[Ryan]

Oh, that's right. That's the banking. So, yeah. How do you get access to his money? Yeah, he's thinking about money. He's got to live somehow, or he's got to, you know, get people to go buy groceries. Beneath that, there's lsr. So there's some controversy over what this is, but I think the best explanation for it is last stop routes, which is an aviation term for areas on a flight path where their airports don't have stringent customs and immigration controls. If you're trying to escape, you got to go to the airports where they're not going to look too hard. And then there's some beneath that, some more illegible text that's disputed. I don't really have a strong guess

[Michael]

for what those are, but this penmanship really sucks.

[Ryan]

Dude, he's terrible. Yeah, it's bad. It's really bad. But beneath that, it says qsa.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Ryan]

I don't know what Q is, but SA would be Saudi Arabia potentially. And I think that because next to it says Nigeria. So he's thinking about, where am I going to go? Those are pretty safe places.

[Nick]

Q could be Qatar.

[Ryan]

Qatar, yeah.

[Michael]

Okay. Or it could be an online community of people that think there's a Q level clearance.

[Ryan]

Yeah, he's got to go get permission from that guy.

[Michael]

Yeah,

[Ryan]

yeah. So here's what we know, is that he has these meetings for up to 12 hours a day. He's meeting with attorneys. He comes out with a legal paper with what appears to be the mental space of someone who is considering how to get out, which airport to go to, which plane to be on, jet or prop plane. Could be jet versus US property. I'm not quite sure what that is. He's concerned about what kind of plane he's going to be on, where he's going to go, how he's going to get money, how he's going to evade a red notice, which airport's going to land at, what the guards are doing. This is not the mental space of someone who's about to kill themselves. This is someone who's intending to escape. And no one's talking about this escape plan that's written here.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And it's beyond me. It is the single most damning piece of information in the files for the existence of him post cell life, that he left the cell alive.

[Michael]

What are these other, like pictures and drawing? Like middle of the page, far left. What is that? Yeah, what is all that crap? Or down in the bottom right, to the right of Brad. Or to the left of Brad. What is that?

[Ryan]

I have no idea.

[Nick]

That to me, that appears to be a schematic of tarmac.

[Ryan]

Oh, a Runway. You're talking about the one next to Brad.

[Nick]

So, yeah, so you got Runway, but then Brad would be the actual airport building and the rest of it would be probably hangers, you know, so let's assume parking.

[Michael]

All right, let's assume it'd be interesting

[Nick]

to take that and then go look at it, an overlay of Brad and see what it looks like.

[Ryan]

Yeah, I don't know what that top left one was you asked about. Looks like a drawing of the U.S.

[Michael]

that's that little top portion does for sure. And also maybe he was a prolific doodler as well, too. Right. So in the middle of thinking through this stuff, maybe that's what he did was doodle. But. All right, let's assume that he was meeting with his attorneys. He was restructuring his. Well, not that we have to assume, because we know at least that he was in fact restructuring as the financial side of the house. That was executed and done while he was in, like that, completed. Okay, so there you go. So that's a fact that we.

[Nick]

Statement of fact.

[Michael]

And he was, in fact, because he has attorney private or client privilege, he knows there was no recording devices in that room. They are talking through this. Not all attorneys. Attorneys are just people as well. Right?

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michael]

If you offered 30, 50 million bucks, maybe he would help you in a plan like this. Who knows? Anybody who could rub together two brain cells would never let that man leave a room where they have attorney client privilege with this piece of paper.

[Nick]

Paper.

[Michael]

Why would he.

[Nick]

Why would he take that unless he was writing it down once he got back to his cell to help him remember it? Because he didn't have a very good memory.

[Michael]

Yeah, but most of this stuff would have to be done by people outside of that cell. So you would have to probably remember very little. Because, you think about it, if you're locked in there with limited communication.

[Nick]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Michael]

You are going to have actuaries on the outside doing all of this for you. You don't have to remember shit.

[Nick]

Right.

[Michael]

Other than the time and date that you need to be somewhere dressed as a butler, obviously. That was clearly. Why would they. Why? I mean,

[Ryan]

it's a good question. I. I think that he is a prolific doodler. A lot of these just look like sort of mindless doodles.

[Michael]

Michael, hold up your notebook.

[Ryan]

There's some doodles. Oh, wow. All right.

[Michael]

He likes to draw, right? Brains.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I like to come in between shows and complete the drawings, which he's seen and hasn't stopped drawing hands. So what does that mean? What does it even all mean?

[Ryan]

He's down for it.

[Nick]

It's perfecting his technique.

[Michael]

What? I mean, that's just what people do. And sometimes that's, you know, people can connect the dots by detaching their brain a little bit and just let the pen go wild as they're working their way through this.

[Nick]

But also, like, do we have any idea what's under that black box?

[Ryan]

That redaction. We don't.

[Nick]

So.

[Ryan]

Redaction.

[Nick]

That's also really interesting.

[Michael]

All of this and then redact a small.

[Nick]

Why is there redaction on a handwritten doodle? The note? That doesn't make sense.

[Ryan]

So a minute ago you were talking about how the US Government is not homogeneous. Yeah. My theory is that there's mutiny within the DOJ about this. This has to be assigned to someone to redact all these documents. Do you. Hey, this is not being done by cash. This isn't being done by bonding. There's agents that took the oath that all three of us took to protect the United States against enemies foreign and domestic. The Constitution. Right. Defendant support. I think my theory is that there are FBI agents and DOJ lawyers who. This comes across their desk and they're like, I gotta put that redaction box on here. And so what I think is, is what we see is in here, there's either sloppiness or they're just. It's too much. Millions of documents. They can't get it all. Or they're like scrolling through it and they go to make their redaction and they're like, like, we're going to let this one go, see if it's going to get through.

[Michael]

Sometimes two things can be true at once or can be. You know, it could be a combination of both.

[Ryan]

Yeah. So this is particularly damning when you scroll down to the next page. So we get this evidence of intent.

[Michael]

But wait, there's more.

[Ryan]

Wait, there's more. You scroll down, we get this weird

[Michael]

note and it says, God, his handwriting sucks.

[Ryan]

It's terrible. Yeah. I wish he was a more considerate criminal for us and we could just read his handwriting.

[Michael]

Why just little dots with an X? Dude, come on.

[Ryan]

Yeah, he's. He's not the best. So keep scrolling for me, please. Here. This is upside down, but at that very. The very bottom. Second from the bottom, it says jail out equals 10.

[Michael]

Yeah. Okay.

[Ryan]

He allegedly dies August 10, 2019. This line indicates foreknowledge of. That's the day that he's going to get out and apply the plan in the first note. What do you do with that? He structures his whole estate, buttons up everything financially, has an escape plan written out and knows which day he's going to leave. And then he allegedly dies that day.

[Nick]

So all of this is not part of the math that I was doing. All of this is gravy on top of that. So we've already established improbability for the official narrative. And that was just with the first third.

[Ryan]

Not including. This is what you're saying.

[Nick]

Not including Any of this stuff. Right. That's pretty compelling.

[Ryan]

So this is recovered from his cell,

[Michael]

and I think I would like to see a comparison to make sure that it is actually his handwriting. We can operate on the assumption that

[Nick]

it is, which is why it's not included.

[Michael]

Yeah, I don't know what to make of that. Scroll back up.

[Nick]

And also, why. Why on a note like this, you would have things redacted like that doesn't.

[Michael]

And what is that for? Redacted. Kept me in a local shower stall for one hour. Send me burn food, giant bugs, something you. My head's no fun. What the fuck?

[Ryan]

Over.

[Nick]

Giant. Giant bugs crawling over my hands.

[Michael]

No fun. What? And why would you redact. Obviously it's a name. Somebody kept me in a local shower. Self.

[Ryan]

Or locked shower.

[Michael]

Yeah. Okay, so scroll up.

[Ryan]

Maybe you had a bad time and a shower.

[Michael]

And I hope he had a lot of bad times in showers while he was in there. Yeah, it's odd all the way up, Michael. Just.

[Nick]

So when you go. When you go down a little bit. Right. It's. It don't know what that is, but that looks like it says complete dash pb Virgin Islands.

[Ryan]

Yeah, the vi. That's a good one. I forgot about that one. You also have G up there, which he uses as a short for Ghislaine. So I think this is actually referencing a computer because he has an email where he has shorthand.

[Michael]

Oh, that could say computer, actually, for sure.

[Ryan]

For a specific computer Ghislaine seems to have control of in the Virgin Islands.

[Michael]

Go up to the plan, Michael. The very top of it. So you can see it just laid out. I still can't get my head around why they would let him leave a room that they could pretty cleanly operate. And it'd be like leaving a skiff with your operational planning, which is just. No, no. It's a no, no move.

[Ryan]

Yes.

[Nick]

And never attribute to malice that which you can explain through stupidity or incompetence. Because like.

[Ryan]

Or pride.

[Nick]

I mean. Yeah, hubris and arrogance. I mean, look at the. You know. And again, this is not classified information. You can freaking pull up news articles on it. Right. CIA loses an entire intelligence network because of laziness and incompetence and arrogance of case officers using the pizza parlor for the meat. The code name was something like pizza. Right. And Hezbollah killed a whole bunch of our assets because of that.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Nick]

And so these are highly trained professionals who know what Right. Looks like.

[Ryan]

And.

[Nick]

And so I think people at a certain point just get away with things for such A long time that they start to believe that they're untouchable. And you see. You see micro examples of this, right? And we all know in the military, it's never the new guy who dies jumping whatever it is, right? And it's oftentimes not even the like. And it's not the incredibly experienced person who, like, neural pathways are so established they do it in their sleep. It's always the person who was just about there. And they've been thousands of jumps or, you know, hundreds of firefights or whatever it is, and they just start to kind of believe that they're untouchable, and they get complacent. That's why aviators have checklists, right? They get complacent, and then next thing you know, it's like it happens to the. The most experienced people.

[Michael]

What do you think he's referencing the government there? So it's got banking, blackmail, guards aligned, government, something. Cl. Whatever the rest of those two letters are.

[Nick]

Or is that a parentheses in la?

[Michael]

It could be. Who knows with the handwriting?

[Nick]

Latin America.

[Ryan]

And it's all stemming as, like, bicycle spokes out of something. US.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Visa, red notice.

[Ryan]

So he's thinking about being. Maybe Oconus is a possibility.

[Michael]

Is there somebody deeply influential in his orbit that has the red underneath the red. Notice the first name that starts with a K.

[Nick]

No idea.

[Ryan]

No idea.

[Nick]

Because underneath it also, it looks like it appears to say Heather. Maybe Muslim

[Ryan]

gangsters down there. See that?

[Nick]

Yeah, I saw that. So, you guys, you think he has some criminal connections.

[Ryan]

You might know a guy or two.

[Michael]

From what I understand, criminals also like money.

[Nick]

It tends to be why they do what they do.

[Michael]

Yeah. So you guys consider this to be a smoking gun?

[Ryan]

I do. I'm not gonna speak for Nick.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

To me, this is. I need to understand both the timeline. There's all the money, and then there's the intent.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Right. So motive and intent, these line up within about 48 hours of each other, particularly the jail out equals 10, right. This is the smoking gun for me. For Nick, the math is very. That's his smoking gun. Both of those are very persuasive, I think, pieces of evidence.

[Nick]

To me, the smoking gun is actually in the autopsy.

[Ryan]

Oh, yeah.

[Nick]

Specifically, yeah. To me, that's the, like. Okay.

[Michael]

Of the mechanism of injury.

[Nick]

No, there's a different thing that you would have to pay attention to that I had no idea about, but Ryan and his team paid attention to. I'll let you talk about it. And again, I'll just go back to like, the smoking gun to me is just not. Like. Like I'm already past that. Like, I've already made the decision. The official narrative is a lie. Like, that's. That's where I'm standing. So now I'm. This, to me, is all just. Okay, now we're considering the possibilities of the unselfinflicted outcome. Right? Homicide left alive. It was a. It was an extraction, whatever. Right. So we're just. We're just weighing possibilities now. Right.

[Ryan]

So if you go back to the evidence cards, Michael, and Actually, let me

[Nick]

say one more thing.

[Ryan]

Go ahead.

[Nick]

So these little boxes are redacted. They're probably not first and last names. Probably just a first name or some reference.

[Michael]

It would seem like it on the second page, at least just because of the size of the box.

[Nick]

Reference there, too.

[Michael]

That's not a first and last name based on the size of that writing. That's a. That's a first name.

[Nick]

Right.

[Michael]

Or a singular last name, depending on how he referred to the person.

[Nick]

So let's look at what got redacted and what didn't. So deliver funds in the Epstein files. Right. And they talked about this publicly on. I don't remember where, because we were involved in a number of different things. Luckily, only one thing actually hit a file, and it was a civil. A civil firm law firm that we were working with that was representing one of Epstein's victims. Right. And this law firm needs some counterintelligence training, because what they tried to do was they were trying to make their case to the doj, and they basically name dropped deliver fund to get credibility for their case, because we were the ones helping them out with some of the intel stuff, specifically around international cell phones that probably not hoping to be

[Michael]

recognized for that work, I would assume. Assume?

[Nick]

Well, I mean, I don't really care, quite frankly. Yeah, like, we were involved in helping to. To help victims of trafficking get justice.

[Michael]

Like, hell.

[Nick]

Yeah. That's what we do.

[Michael]

My point being, you probably would have liked to have been in control when your name appears.

[Nick]

Right?

[Michael]

It doesn't.

[Nick]

So. So we are a source, and that was a method. What are the two things you protect with your life? Sources and methods. Right. Kind of tend to be the two.

[Michael]

Yeah. Means and ways.

[Nick]

Right. And so that was a. We were a source and a method. Right.

[Ryan]

And.

[Nick]

And that was described in that DOJ letter or that. That letter to the DOJ from the law firm. And that was not redacted. So that makes me go, okay, like, why is that redacted? But we weren't I mean, I could

[Michael]

see people not knowing what they're looking at, right.

[Nick]

And then they also, within that, that letter, they actually put the name of the employee who was our chief of operations at the time.

[Michael]

Time.

[Nick]

And they didn't read. So like now his name is in the Epstein files and they didn't redact his name. And he's very clearly an innocent party. Right. So like, that's why I also have a lot of, like, there, there's not. And there's very clearly not an over redaction going on. So that's that also, it's interesting, asks a lot of questions about why you've got these boxes.

[Michael]

The redaction process, which I know nothing about, for clarity. So everything I'm about to say is completely me talking out of my ass, which is high 90th percentile anyway. So I would imagine it was given to a team of people. And if they're not even intimately familiar with, particularly this case, how do you even know what it is you're supposed to redact? How are you going to know what is sensitive and what isn't unless you are given directions from whomever a person, a leadership role, whatever it is to say, look for only these things that would explain why deliver fund and that name would be left in. Because that's not on the list.

[Nick]

It's not on the list.

[Michael]

And especially if it's a massive trove of documents, if you throw somebody at this who wasn't directly involved in investigating this person, they're looking at this shit as a snapshot. How are they. They're not going to be able to decode this. They're literally probably scrolling through, looking for exactly whatever terms they were looking, looked, told to look for, to redact. That would be my guess.

[Ryan]

And what kind of review process does their decision to redact have? If they redact this, is there someone who comes behind them and says, oh, you forgot this thing or you forgot this thing, or is this a one and done? We're moving on because there's millions of pages of documents.

[Michael]

I mean, you'd like to think for, you know, there'd be some qa, QC process, but hell if I know. Depend on the manpower associated with it and how robust or important that list of things you are supposed to redact is perceived to be to the person telling you to redact it. And we would never know that.

[Nick]

You never know.

[Michael]

There would no way to know. Unless there's a way to remove these boxes and then you can start aggregating why then you could start asking some very interesting questions. Why this name, not this one? Why this person? When without that, this is all we're throwing shotgun rounds, the wind, you know.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. The redactions are, you know, seemingly not to have a rhyme or reason because there's some things that look like they should be redacted and they weren't. And some things that were redacted, like why is this redacted? Unless this is a co conspirator, Or Massey came out on the house floor and made this point and called out co conspirators and called out Bondi for hiding Les Wexner's name. I believe it was Les Wexner, but it was one of the people marked as a co conspirator. And so there seems to be.

[Nick]

How'd that work out for Massey?

[Ryan]

Not great, God bless him. But he. He paid for it, I think, in the end. And so it is a process that is deliberately obscured, and maybe we'll never know that. But my theory is, is that like you said earlier, it is not homogenous. There's agents in there. They're probably looking at this like, I wonder if I can slide this through.

[Michael]

I feel like that's true of any organization that has more than two people in it that you're going to end up having. You know, oftentimes incentives are aligned, disaligned, whatever it may be. And not everybody is completely bought in to the degree that you would, you know, there's just not homogenous organizations. All right, so the autopsy. What's interesting about the autopsy.

[Ryan]

So if you go back to the evidence cards, Michael, and go back beneath the smoking gun, if you had evidence he is alive, back at the top, it'll take you to the evidence cards and I'll show you the body and we'll talk about the body. So search for ear. Probably take you right to it.

[Michael]

I'd use command F, Michael.

[Ryan]

There you go. Do one more. So that's. It's the takes us to the top card. Let's see if we can get us. It's got 30 results. Maybe it won't be as fast as I think it is. So we're looking for.

[Michael]

This is the trust, the 1953 trust you were talking about?

[Ryan]

That's right, yeah.

[Michael]

Is that hitting on Earth?

[Nick]

If it's in there, yeah.

[Ryan]

So there's these facial discrepancies on the gurney. Click View evidence.

[Michael]

So did they actually release this photo?

[Ryan]

Yeah. So if you scroll down a little bit, the left one is the photo of him. Alive. So this is a photo of his face as he's alive. The right is a photo taken by the New York Post.

[Michael]

And they let the New York Post come in and photograph his body.

[Ryan]

The they. I believe this photo was taken on the gurney as he was departing the facility.

[Michael]

And they usually cover bodies. Yeah.

[Ryan]

That's weird. This is what's interesting is this is what's confusing about this. There is an FBI memo that says that the body that left there was a decoy body because they wanted the media to follow the decoy body so they could take the other body wherever they wanted to go. So there's a card that talks about this decoy body that we have on the site that people can look at, and we reference the memo. So all of these cards are claim, source. Claim source. Because we're making a pretty big claim here.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And you can't do that halfway, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's got to be pretty well sourced. When you die. I don't think your cartilage changes that much.

[Michael]

Probably depends on how you die.

[Ryan]

That's true. Yeah. You get hit by a bomb or something?

[Nick]

Well, no, it depends on what killed you.

[Michael]

Yes, precisely. Some things, I'm relatively positive, can change the cartilage structure of the human body.

[Ryan]

In this case, hanging. Is it going to change your nose structure?

[Michael]

Depends on when they cut you down, if you landed on your face.

[Ryan]

Your ear.

[Michael]

Old men have weird ears, let's just be honest.

[Nick]

And ears and ear prints. So, like, we actually use biometrics for, like, side shots of people's heads to, like, literally find. Find somebody based on their ear. Right. So. So it's. It's a unique signature to an individual.

[Ryan]

So this is. Is interesting. But the bigger piece that's interesting to me here is this FBI memo that says, yeah, there was a decoy body. And according to the memo, they used blankets and boxes, but that's not what visually we see here. So there's some disconnect between this memo and reality.

[Michael]

Also, why would you. Why would you ever need to have a decoy body?

[Ryan]

1. I got a question.

[Nick]

Like, how do you get a decoy body? Like, I. I might know a guy who's interested in that.

[Michael]

Well, I feel like they're probably not organic.

[Nick]

I think you're right.

[Michael]

Your previous employer likely has, you know, gelatin bodies for things it's contracted to Hollywood. You know, that's actually a place that probably has really good ones as well.

[Nick]

That's a good point.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. But why?

[Ryan]

I mean, who to divert the media. It was the stated reason.

[Michael]

Yeah, but they can't follow you to the corner. They're not. I guess they could call it follow you to the corner building. They're not going to go inside with you, so. To divert them to what?

[Nick]

Right, and also, why, like, why do you want to divert the meat? Like, who. Why do you care if the media takes pictures and follows you? Like, they do that all the time anyway, so.

[Michael]

And again, once you get into the. I'm assuming it was in the NYPD somewhere. The coroner's office is. The media is not going in there. There's. I don't feel the need to divert that. I don't know.

[Ryan]

Yeah, it's weird. I mean, you can look at this, and there, again, you can provide prosaic explanations, but here's where it gets really weird, is when it goes to the autopsy. And for Nick, this is the smoking gun.

[Nick]

Unless the whole reason why they were doing that was to give the FBI agents a reason on why they needed to have a decoy body because they were doing an extraction. Like that actually makes sense.

[Michael]

Sense, yeah.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

All right. The autopsy.

[Ryan]

All right, so this autopsy is performed, and this is where I think it's. This is, in my opinion, the most interesting piece here. The office of the Chief Medical examiner performs his autopsy and makes remarks about the conditions of all kinds of parts of his body, one of which is his prostate. Right.

[Nick]

Which is standard operating procedure. Right. Corners go head to toe, go through everything. So that's. They're just doing what they do all day, every day.

[Ryan]

And my understanding is the best way to do this is to not review medical records before you do an autopsy because it will color your view of the autopsy.

[Michael]

That makes sense that I have medical

[Ryan]

doctors have asked about this, and this is their statement. I'm not an expert on autopsies, but this is my understanding. And she makes remarks about the conditions of his prostate. She says it's something like. It's basically normal. It was there. The. The real takeaway is that it was there. Rewind to a deposition that he was under when he was alive, and he's asked, in this deposition, Mr. Epstein, you can have high testosterone and still need Viagra if you don't have a prostate. Is that correct? He responds, correct. People who try to explain this away try to say that, oh, the royal you is used. Not you, Andy, the royal you.

[Michael]

Yeah, but why would you ask him a royal you question like that? He's not a medical background in a deposition. Yeah.

[Nick]

Which is very specifically about him. Does he kind of the whole reason.

[Michael]

Did he have his prostate taken out?

[Ryan]

Well, we know that he also has a LabCorp record that is found in the files.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

Where his.

[Michael]

And for people listening, that's just a place where you can go get blood drawn.

[Ryan]

Yeah, he goes get blood drawn. And it seems to indicate a follow on examination for a radical prostatectomy.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

His urinalysis and his PSA are the two markers in question. And there's a paragraph beneath that in the LabCorp findings that discuss what the finding should look like if you have a radical prostatectomy. Which is big, fancy medical language for removal of the prostate.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So you have his deposition. Correct. No prostate. You have his LabCorp record with his name at the top. That shows that it's a follow on examination for a radical prostatectomy. And then compare that to the autopsy saying. Which says he has one. And so what I think happened is when the autopsy was performed, she wasn't tracking that. She had no idea. And so the conclusion you have to figure out is then what happened? Was it that it wasn't his body and she was looking at a completely different body? Was she lying? Was she in on it? We don't. We have no way to know. We can only speculate.

[Michael]

Are we 100 certain he had his prostate removed?

[Ryan]

We can't be 100 certain of anything here. It's the unfortunate nature of conspiracies. Right. Conspiracies in the legal sense of two or more people agreeing to do something unlawful. But the two pieces of evidence. Verbal testimony.

[Michael]

God damn, Michael.

[Ryan]

Verbal testimony and medical records.

[Michael]

His own verbal testimony dated October 26, 2010. The file contains laboratory results that includes a boilerplate notation for patients who have undergone a radical prostate. Prostatectomy. Prostate, Whatever the that word is. This document or the document has become the subject of intense medical and investigative scrutiny regarding Jeffrey Epstein's clinical history. This is gnarly procedure. Actually. I had a guy explain it to me recently. They put a Foley catheter in, cut your dick off and slide it up the Foley catheter so it's about three feet away from your body. As they remove your prostate, then they sew your dick back on.

[Ryan]

You give somebody a warning before you start explaining that. Yeah, I need. I need a trigger warning.

[Michael]

Michael, pull up that video.

[Nick]

Oh, man. That is what a radical animation of that procedure.

[Michael]

Python.

[Ryan]

Prostatectomy.

[Michael]

Yeah, prostatectomy, that is. Would describe to me they have a new way to do it. An ablation way. But that is the traditional way to do it. So, yeah, that would be considered a radical thing for sure.

[Ryan]

Not a party.

[Michael]

No, But I tell you what, if we could find proof or evidence that he actually had that procedure and then the autopsy says the prostate is intact. I don't know how you walk past those.

[Nick]

See, to me that, that, that's why I say to me that if there is a smoking gun, that is it. Because intelligence operations are, let's just say you could call them conspiracies only it would be usually some legal thing. Right. Because what are intelligence operations? You do have two or more people who are agreeing to do something and try to keep everybody else from finding out about it. So there are plenty of people in the military as an example, who say in a place like Afghanistan or Iraq, who are part of an intelligence operation, completely unwittingly, have no idea. No idea. Right.

[Michael]

Good example of this is in Ukraine when they launched the drone strike out of the battle of the trucks and the truck drivers had no idea that they were actually carrying the drones perfect hundreds of miles. And they knew, they, well, they didn't knew, but they crushed a lot of the, the Russian bomber capability.

[Nick]

And there's the way we move money around this country, the way the Fed moves cash, if anybody knows how that works, there are people moving it who have absolutely no idea what's in the back of their trucks. And so, so if you are doing something like that, you're going to want to tell as few possible or as few people as possible. And the medical examiner is probably not somebody that you're going to read into it.

[Michael]

Yeah, right. You would think that they would have the wherewithal though, to get their hands on that report before it became public to either redact or modify as if they were on their A game obviously.

[Nick]

Right?

[Michael]

No loose ends.

[Nick]

Well, no loose ends. But also if you're doing this, you're trying to do this very quickly because of some set of circumstances or whatever, you're trying to do this very quickly. And who's doing the redaction? A bunch of non medically trained lawyers. So I doubt anybody thought, hey, let's get, you know, let's go read the Surgeon General into this conspiracy.

[Michael]

And also how could they have known if he did have a prostect, whatever the hell it is.

[Nick]

Prostectomy? Yeah, prostatectomy. It's just not like these are, these are the small details that always are the things that like end up uncovering really big things. Right. It's always these tiny little details that people miss because it is impossible to cover your tracks on everything. Impossible.

[Michael]

All right, that's. That's an interesting one for sure.

[Ryan]

This is where I think a false choice was created very deliberately. And I fell for this hook, line and sink. So if I go to my kids and I say, you guys want to go to dinner tonight? You can pick. You want to do steak or sushi? There are two nine year olds and you know what they're going to do? They're going to bicker. I want to go to steak, I want to go to sushi. And they're going, I don't care. Both are great for me. Right. I've controlled the choices. What happened here, I think was deliberate and brilliant because what they did is they had the official autopsy that was released. Cause of death is hanging. Simultaneously, Mark Epstein hires a forensic examiner to look at the pro. The autopsy and concludes that this little bone in the neck called the hyoid bone broke, consistent with strangulation.

[Michael]

Was Mark his brother?

[Ryan]

Mark's his brother.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

Yeah. So from the jump from day one, you have the official narrative hanging, unofficial narrative murder. And you gave the people who don't want to believe the official narrative exactly what they were.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah. You can light a match on that fuse and just walk away.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And I fell for this. Hook, line, sinker. This is where all of the Epstein isn't dead or the Epstein didn't kill himself memes came from. Right. Years of these memes.

[Michael]

Oh, they're still ongoing.

[Ryan]

They're still ongoing.

[Michael]

Yeah. They haven't stopped. Yeah.

[Ryan]

But this is a false narrative. It's a false choice. And it was, I believe, done deliberately by giving them exactly what they wanted. Here's what you're hoping for. This unofficial narrative that he was murdered. And they re amplify stuff in the press about this all the time. You see, like the Telegraph going back and republishing this article about Mark Epstein and the pathologist or the examiner that he hired. Why aren't you still pushing this?

[Michael]

Oh, that's an easy one. They're selling soap dollars.

[Ryan]

People click it.

[Michael]

They. They know they're. They are in the business of attention capture. So they serve you an ad. And people are drawn to this type of stuff.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael]

Especially sticky ones.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That have a lot of things that are hard to explain. It will

[Nick]

especially.

[Michael]

I was having this conversation yesterday with a woman. We were just talking about conspiracies and it was specifically, we're talking about what happened with Charlie Kirk. It was wild to see some of the concepts and conspiracies that were latched onto hook, line and sinker emotionally. And we were talking about it, and I agree with what she said. People don't like not having an answer or feeling like they don't have any control. So things like that, they can get emotionally involved in it because whether the answer is a good answer or a bad answer or a plausible answer or a reasonable answer, it's at least something that they can hold on to.

[Ryan]

Feeling hopeless sucks.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I don't think our brain does well with it.

[Nick]

No.

[Michael]

So you're looking for an answer to a question that you want to answer, and there isn't a good one. And I think some people, they wrap their arms around these things incredibly tightly.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I think the danger is to start with your conclusion, work your way backward. Oh, which is the seductive piece of conspiracies is, you know, Charlie Kirk wasn't killed by a lone shooter on the roof. Right. People start from there and then they work their way backwards into all manner of variations. Right. What we've tried to really be careful about here is reasoning our way from the beginning down through the conclusion where we walk the reader. You make up your own mind, you decide for yourself. Is this compelling to you? But we're not going to start. I mean, I guess we do because my website is epsteindead.org but we start with the very beginning and walk them through all the way down to say, hey, you've got to make up your own mind from the evidence we present. And the prostate piece is overlooked.

[Michael]

I mean, you either have one or you don't.

[Ryan]

Can't grow a new one.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Can't grow a new one in jail.

[Michael]

That would be. That would be a medical first.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

So the. The. What Ryan is referring to, we did in the math, or I did in the math. It's called Bayesian upgrading. Right. And updating. And so the best way for people to think about this is the spam filter on your email. Right. Your spam filter on your email starts with each email coming in at a 0.0 score. And then it sees the term, you know, Viagra, and it says, oh, it upgrades it as higher probability spam. And then it sees that it comes from a blacklisted email address. Upgrades it from an IP in Nigeria. Upgrades it. Right. And it says, this is spam. And obviously it doesn't always get it perfect, but it's starting at that 0.0. For me, it was when I looked at this, I'm like, all right, you can't start at 0.0 and go with the official narrative. Because if you did that, you would have to start at a deficit of bias of basically minus 800,000 to work your way to zero. And that is without adding this kind of stuff. So you start adding this kind of stuff because a plausible. It's not actually a plausible, but an explanation is that medical examiner is just really bad at their job and they got it wrong. They retired that day, they were hungover, whatever. Right.

[Michael]

That is possible. It's possible.

[Nick]

Highly improbable, but sure. Yeah. Right. So you start. So if, if you take away the kind of stuff that you can make these little explanations for. Right. So either the camera went down or it didn't. Either the guards fell asleep or they didn't. Right. You just take just the binary things that really are or are not statements of fact and you end up with these astronomical improbabilities. It really colors this kind of stuff to like wait explanations in one direction or the other. Because. Because then it starts to explain, explain why you had then have these inconsistencies in the data that's further downstream.

[Ryan]

And just one single data point like we haven't even talked about is that this was the first suicide in the MCC in 21 years.

[Michael]

Really.

[Nick]

Which is a statistic I did not include for the people wanting to attack the model. To me, that's a big one.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And like arguably one of the most high profile prisoners that MCC has probably seen. Definitely a prisoner that a lot of people are paying attention to on a national basis. Arguably one of the most connected in politically powerful and government circles globally. And it just so happens to be that's the one time you make a mistake or that's the one time that, you know, a suicide slips through the cracks.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

What are you seeing post autopsy, if anything? Is there any way to look at the money that he was put aside to see if it has moved or been messed with at all? Or does the evidence trail end with the autopsy?

[Ryan]

There's post autopsy signals of life that are interesting. If you go back to the cards and you search for drone, there's a guy who went over to the little Saint James or known as Epstein island and he flew a drone over.

[Michael]

We're talking about the. The island that he owned.

[Ryan]

That he owned.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So that right there. We'll just leave it actually at the top. That's great. This guy flies this drone over the island. Yep. And this footage is on rumble because it's been knocked down everywhere else. And this guy, whoever he is, looks up from a Side by side or a golf cart or whatever it is. So the drone flies up onto the island and it's basically doing just. Just a perimeter look. It's flying all over the island and looking at everything. And then it flies over some side by sides or golf carts or whatever those are, and hovers for a second and then looks down and stays there long enough that I guess it catches the attention of the people beneath it. Who then? This person that you see on the screen here looks out from underneath the golf cart and looks up and you can draw your own conclusions about who that guy is. You can see the footage yourself. It's on Rumble. It's on our website. People have zoomed in and cleaned this up a little bit. But he's got the mannerisms, the hair color, the complexion, the facial structure of Epstein.

[Michael]

Wouldn't it be the worst operation, covert operation ever in the history of covert operations, though, to just take him back to this island?

[Ryan]

So I've been to that island.

[Michael]

Are you on the flight logs? Did you vet this?

[Nick]

So two weeks ago now we get to the real. Let's just say he. He did some. He did some interesting things that I would have advised against. But, you know, Ryan is nothing if not motivated.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And some enthusiasm. And I didn't care too much about trespassing, which they are pretty upset at me for. Okay. But I went there and that island would be the perfect place.

[Nick]

Got a buddy of his arrested in the meantime.

[Michael]

Yeah, but wouldn't that be also the first place people would look?

[Ryan]

No. Don't people in intelligence hide in plain sight?

[Michael]

I don't know. I didn't come. I don't know, dude.

[Nick]

Well, yeah, absolutely. Hiding in plain sight is a very real concept. Right. One of my friends was a senior scientist at Sandia Labs who we became very good friends because I just interfaced with him a lot. And he would always say he's developing mechanisms for that kind of stuff. Right? And he would always say, yeah, you can be nowhere or you can be everywhere. Right. But you can't be anywhere in between. And so that's a. I mean, that's the whole concept of hiding. And hiding in plain sight. Right. Is you oftentimes go where the people are, are least likely to look, because everybody makes that assumption. You would never be there.

[Michael]

So why would the island be such a good place?

[Nick]

Is it just control?

[Ryan]

Logistically, it is ideal. There's a family there that has. That been very loyal to him for a very long time. Anne Rodriguez is the island manager. She's been in the files 23, 000 times. She still runs that island today. She has not been investigated to my knowledge.

[Michael]

She's held by the trust. The island was that part of the stuff that was set up.

[Ryan]

It is owned by LSJV I llc, which purchased it after allegedly by a guy named Stephen Deckhoff, who's this billionaire who had plans to renovate it and create this five star resort. No permits have been pulled. Nothing's been built there. There's nothing.

[Michael]

An uphill marketing.

[Nick]

Yeah. Right.

[Michael]

Challenge.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Come to the beach. You know which one.

[Nick]

Either that or a bunch of people are going to be so curious they're gonna line up to go. Which is weird.

[Michael]

Humans are like.

[Nick]

Humans are sick. He.

[Ryan]

He.

[Michael]

I think he has an uphill PR battle. If you were to try to turn that into the next all inclusive.

[Ryan]

I don't think there was ever any intent to do this. I think they tried to whitewash us it because this family is still running this island. I know that because they chased me off of it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And so Anne Rodriguez has not been, to my knowledge, investigated for sex trafficking and harboring people on that island for violations of the man act for coordinating people to fly to that island and girls come there for the purposes of prostitution or sex trafficking.

[Michael]

What country is she a citizen of?

[Ryan]

I don't know her citizenship. I think she is initially from Puerto Rico.

[Michael]

So I'm assuming extradition issue.

[Ryan]

I'm assuming she's a U.S. no. Because she's in the Virgin Islands. So the FBI has jurisdiction there.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

Right. U.S. virgin Islands. That island is. Would have been great at this time because everyone thought he was dead and they're arguing over this false choice. So I'm not saying he would have stayed there and I'm not saying he's there now for sure. And that's definitely not why we were there.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

But if you wanted to go back to your island because everyone is arguing and you go clean up your loose ends, they're arguing about whether you committed suicide or you were murdered and you can go back and you can clean everything up. And we seem to indicate that on that note, there was a computer at least that he was interested in in the Virgin Islands.

[Michael]

It could seem that way.

[Ryan]

For sure.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So mentally he's in this place of I've got to get to that computer Ghis. Got to get to that whatever G is. He calls her G in the email. There's loose ends on this island. Right. I'm not saying that's for sure. Him. It's a data point. I don't know.

[Michael]

Did you find the footage, Michael?

[Ryan]

No, I haven't found the footage of the drone.

[Michael]

You've just been drawing hands, haven't you?

[Ryan]

No, I was looking up the island.

[Michael]

How does it look?

[Ryan]

Looks like a pretty normal island.

[Michael]

Would you go to a resort there?

[Ryan]

I don't think so. All expenses paid.

[Michael]

Come on, dude. Breakfast, lunch, and dinner are included.

[Ryan]

It's a beautiful island. For what it's worth, I mean, I'm sure it was.

[Michael]

I mean, the BVI is a beautiful place.

[Ryan]

It's a gorgeous place. So there are these post life signatures that.

[Michael]

So what else? Potentially some drone footage. What other kind of post life signatures?

[Ryan]

You guys seen his email account? Is J E E Vacation Gmail dot com. You search us in the files.

[Michael]

That's his email account?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Dude, somebody actually made a mock up of his Gmail account.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So that you can search his. The emails as if you were like logging into Gmail on his. I don't know what programmer did that, but, like, that was a lot of work.

[Ryan]

Yeah. JMail World, they make it. It looks like you're logged into your own Gmail account. They, they, they did great with it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So you can search for his email like you're looking through Gmail. Wow, there's a. Oh, yeah, here's the island. So this guy named Rusty Shackelford, whoever this guy is, has this drone footage and they've changed all this. So that's painted over. This weird sun thing isn't there anymore. The temple. They call this place the temple.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Weirdly, the exact same colors as the Israeli flag. But do it that what you will is painted over.

[Michael]

So we almost had a bird strike. I mean, that is a beautiful island for sure.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Gorgeous place.

[Michael]

God damn it, Michael. Where's Epstein?

[Ryan]

It's like an hour long video left.

[Michael]

It's 2 hours and 38 minutes immediately.

[Nick]

I like. I like the. I like the 360 shooting range. That's pretty nice.

[Ryan]

Nice.

[Michael]

What do we have going on there?

[Ryan]

It's like a berm, doesn't it?

[Michael]

Yeah, dude, some donuts have been done in there.

[Ryan]

Yeah. There's a time stamp, I think, on the card. I don't remember if that time stamp's there. I think that might have been tracked. If you search Rusty, it'll probably jump you to the card.

[Michael]

So you're saying in his email there are indications of him using it?

[Ryan]

There's indications that he has activated at least two accounts. One is a War Thunder account. So it's this video game.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

Which is interesting. Both War Thunder and Fortnite have activity like receipts. And I think it's receipts. And there's emails that connect to his one that he used all throughout the files after he's dead for video games.

[Michael]

My son uses my Microsoft account for his video games. So it's probably associated with me in some way. But I've never logged on because years ago he wanted to. My mistake associated my credit card with the account. Let me just tell you, that can add up fast in app purchases. We had a little. Little chat, little conversation. Yeah. So I can see ways that that that can happen. Having the credentials doesn't necessarily mean it's the person.

[Ryan]

Correct. For sure. It can be someone who has access to that and they want to play video games.

[Michael]

Damn it, Michael, view the evidence.

[Ryan]

It could

[Michael]

go back up. View evidence drone footage.

[Nick]

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[Ryan]

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[Nick]

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[Ryan]

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[Nick]

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[Ryan]

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[Michael]

Whoa. That's a bigger island than I thought.

[Nick]

Advertise.

[Michael]

Hold on. What's it had for? Do we need that finish?

[Ryan]

Oh, there it is.

[Michael]

Go back just a touch. Michael. Don't get crazy.

[Nick]

Okay, guys, on a four wheeler,

[Michael]

it's like.

[Nick]

Yeah, a couple of gator side by side type.

[Michael]

Yeah. I mean, doesn't seem overly concerned that there's a video and photographic drone overhead. Michael, why do you keep hitting pause?

[Ryan]

I wonder if he can hear it.

[Michael]

I'm sure you can at that height.

[Nick]

But also the wind. Do you think he also. It could be, but could just be thinking that's one of his.

[Michael]

That's true.

[Nick]

Right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

One of his security drones.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Michael, weigh in. Is this Epstein or not?

[Ryan]

I thought it was Epstein from the

[Michael]

main picture, but I would also be

[Ryan]

kind of biased to think that because of this website. I mean, I would think that was

[Michael]

Epstein anyways, you know. Yeah.

[Ryan]

From the main picture on the website.

[Nick]

This one.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Yeah. But it certainly does look a lot like him. I will say. So you're saying we're persuading you. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm already skeptical anyways.

[Nick]

God knows what his search history is.

[Michael]

He might be deep down the rabbit hole on this already.

[Nick]

But to my point, the fact that you can't just automatically dismiss this kind of stuff like this. Circumstantial. Maybe he's got another brother who looks. I mean, whatever. Right. Tons of explanations. But the fact that we're even concern considering it is because we've established that the official narrative is crap.

[Michael]

What year was this video supposedly taken?

[Ryan]

Can you scroll down and. Or go back up to the card? I think I've got the year on the card. I know that when he went there. So he deleted his account in 2020.

[Michael]

In 2026, YouTuber Nick Greg documented figures watching. Watching from the villa, suggesting continuing the habitation. Yeah.

[Ryan]

So there's a second.

[Michael]

I'm just. I'm wondering if this video is made in the era of AI video tools.

[Ryan]

So what we didn't do is it put anything that could have possibly been AI on here. So that video has been circulating the Internet since pre AI. So my rule was we're gonna get that question.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I better be able to answer that.

[Michael]

And so there's nothing reasonable question here. And it's only going to get worse.

[Ryan]

It's gonna get way worse. Yeah. There's nothing on here that is post AI era.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Ryan]

So there's these people who will post. We saw them in Tel Aviv. And it's this picture that you know is on Instagram or whatever was the

[Michael]

last place I saw. He was walking next to Osama bin Laden.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It's a pretty dope picture.

[Ryan]

So we don't. We don't deal with any of that. And that goes with my evidentiary threshold. Nothing made it onto this timeline. That wasn't more likely than not the preponderance standard 51 to 49. There's other things that were. I looked at and I thought, I don't know about that. And so it Got into the threshing floor. Okay, this is the stuff that I felt like met that standard.

[Michael]

All right, what else we got? Post Death.

[Ryan]

Post death. If you scroll down, we've got Littlest Jeff 1, which is a known selector for him. He's registered this before, registers a War Thunder account. And this is one year after his reported death. So we didn't know this until the files came out. So this War Thunder account gets registered and I think, okay, this is weird. It could be a kid, could be whatever. But why would his kid register the handle that Jeffrey Epstein has used before? Little as Jeff one?

[Michael]

I don't know unless it was a. So one of the things with my son, these accounts have incredible value because if you were in the game and had the in app purchases or the in game purchases, it saves to your user and so they, they will sell these things. There's a whole commerce system around the skins and all of that stuff. So I don't know if he just created this or he was logging into an account that already existed because for. I don't even know what War Thunder is, but maybe that account was juiced out with all the in game stuff that they wanted to get access to.

[Ryan]

Yeah, totally. I mean the argument could be that a child or someone who wants to play video games on his account just press the easy button. The wrinkle is this matches a YouTuber seat in this file that's here that we match this up to under that handle that was previously used Littlest Jeff 1. So we know that he's using this handle. It's a weird handle. I don't know why you would a grown man call yourself littlest jeff1 unless you're just a weirdo. But he's used it before.

[Michael]

Well, I mean also think about who we're talking about. Definitely a weirdo.

[Ryan]

Super weirdo. And uses this handle repeatedly and it attaches to both his Gmail and I believe it's also, yeah, his email littlestjeff yahoo.com so he's got this other email address that attaches. So there are these multiple signal points around this where this War Thunder account goes active. Now if you scroll down to the next card, his. This Fortnite account goes active. So the username little is jeff1. The same one that we just talked about was discovered as a Fortnite account and it showed active gameplay in late 2024. The files come out and then in it gets set to private in early 2026 after people start digging into this. So what he's going to do. You're someone who can't travel. You can't go anywhere. No one can really come see you. All your buddies aren't gonna go be caught with you. You gotta pass that time somehow.

[Michael]

Again though, if you have two brain cells to rub together, you would just create a new account with a name not directly associated with things that are in disclosures from the US government.

[Ryan]

But he didn't know that this was going to come out.

[Michael]

I think you would have to assume. Assume that anything you did in your previous life was open to coming out. You'd have to have a clean break.

[Nick]

So you just. But now put yourself in the hubris and arrogant mindset of these types of people. So we see this a lot like in, in trafficking cases. A great example. Like literally guys traffickers tattooing their name on the victim. Yeah, right. I mean, not trying to hide anything. Like posting pictures on Instagram of the victims handing them piles of cash. Right. I mean it's, it's.

[Michael]

Oh, I know, you showed me them.

[Nick]

It's wild, it's egregious. And so I think that you, you, you know, when people start to think that they're untouchable, then you're not, you're not controlling for these variables because this is a per. If any of that is true. It's a person who is not concerned about getting caught.

[Michael]

Caught.

[Nick]

And if you were Jeffrey Epstein, would you be concerned about getting caught? Because the world is your oyster after all. The very first time I got arrested, look what happened.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Now look at. They moved heaven and earth.

[Michael]

Look at how important cotton in a cage twice and got your way out of it.

[Nick]

Look at how important and amazing I am, you know,

[Ryan]

Federal cage. And got out of both cages.

[Michael]

The stay cage. The door wasn't even locked though. That's a little bit with a. It's like a three sided cage.

[Nick]

Yeah, right.

[Michael]

Yeah, exactly.

[Nick]

With a really large window that shaped like a door.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So again this.

[Michael]

There's.

[Nick]

There's a million explanations for the Fortnite account. For the what War. Some.

[Michael]

The thunder War Thunder.

[Nick]

I think for that account. There's many different explanations for that. One of them is that it's in passing time on the island because they said, hey, we're taking you back here. Yeah, wherever before you're getting a villa on the black black sea or wherever it is. And don't leave the island. Cool. Right.

[Michael]

Why though? Why do that for him? Because as far as being an asset for the intelligence world, you're burned. Right? You can't be you're done. You can't be consumer facing anymore. Maybe you can consult. I don't know, maybe you could still use your network. That would be risky though too. So why, why go through all of this effort to make it seem as if a person like this was dead just in the hopes of keeping them alive but behind the curtain for the remainder of their life?

[Ryan]

Now we get to motive.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

What was the motive?

[Michael]

I mean, you'd have to think he had an immense amount of information and potential leverage.

[Ryan]

I think leverage is a huge piece of this. I also think that before the files came out, what were they? Afraid. What was the government afraid of? They arrest this guy for a sex trafficking offense, he's now a defendant in a federal prosecution. If you are one of the people that is behind the scenes and you know, the things that were later revealed in the files, what then is the fear and it's criminal discovery. If he goes through discovery, there's no longer any control over what information comes out.

[Michael]

They can't claim national security over that type of information because you have to

[Ryan]

have a defense attorney who gets to pull all of that out to defend his client, his or her client.

[Michael]

The government's not allowed to restrict any of it. No.

[Nick]

In fact, so one of the very,

[Michael]

you know, that they're actually not restricting all of it.

[Nick]

So my funny little piece of trivia about Nick is before I was married to my current wife, I was married to my first wife. And we'll not get into the details there, but what I can say is that the records of my standard, very long but standard divorce procedure that every guy like me goes through is sealed on national security ground outs.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Nick]

Yeah. So. And the reason why is because the court of law is genuinely neutral. Right. So if you are, say an agency person under a cover and you have this, you know, official unilateral backstop cover, you can tell a law enforcement officer that cover. You can tell anybody that cover. You cannot tell a judge that cover. Right. So you can. Yeah. You cannot maintain cover in court of law.

[Ryan]

It's all going to become public.

[Nick]

Yeah. Now if it's a civil case, the DOJ can come in and just say, this is now our case and we're going to put it in a classified court, in which case the other party can get a attorney with a security clearance and all that kind of stuff. As much as I tried to get them to do that for my divorce, they wouldn't. But. But no, there was, was official government who came in, requested a recess with the, with the judge and said, we need you to lock this down. And when I talked to OGC at the, at the CIA, I was like, you know, I'm like, I'm so sorry that I'm causing these kinds of problems. Like, I felt like the biggest prick on earth, right? Because I'm like, I, I'm like, these guys doing national security stuff and you guys have to deal with this. And they're like, oh, no. See a team of lawyers over there. That's all they deal with all day, every day. Like, dude, you're like the third. Third person today. Like, get in line. Don't think you're special. So I was like, okay, I didn't feel as bad about it. But yes.

[Michael]

So criminal discovery would have likely been the largest fear.

[Nick]

Absolutely.

[Ryan]

They were afraid that it's going to lose. They're going to lose control of it. It's gonna.

[Nick]

And what, and what can a criminal defense lawyer do that they have zero control over media? So unless they can convince a judge to put a gag order on a defense attorney, which, like, that's a neat trick. Like, they. That that's a standard that, that they. Because the judiciary, right. When we have checks and balances for a reason, right? And the judicial branch is going to go like, I don't care if you report to the office of the president. I don't care. Like, we don't care. This, this is the system. Like, if, if we allow those rules to be bent, then, like, our whole existence and our black robes is a sham. That's why, you see, like, judges are very, very, very rarely do they allow any type of bending of the rules when it comes to, you know, criminal cases and people potentially being convicted of

[Ryan]

crimes that would be immediately contested on First Amendment grounds.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And it would be a media road show. I guarantee that defense attorney would relish the opportunity to have.

[Ryan]

The coverage of. This would be extensive. Epstein.

[Nick]

I thought about that. But.

[Ryan]

Oh, yeah, could you imagine that defendant does or the. The council does, Regardless, it's going to be a circus of media.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan]

So what would come out? You'd have, you'd have everything from associates to financial records to flight logs to any kind of connection to victims, any associates connected to the victims. All of this would be coming out in the most public way possible.

[Nick]

Every government meeting.

[Michael]

I was going to say, don't forget the connections in money via the government. There'd be real hard questions about the movement of money and the trades and the hows and the whys. And those would Be very hard to answer.

[Nick]

And then the, the defense, not an attorney. But I'm trying to think of like what would a defense attorney do? What they, the argument they would probably try to make is called agent of the state. Right? So agent of the state is where you as a private citizen law enforcement officer asks you to do something. This is an example and I'm probably butchering it and being oversimplified here but if a law enforcement officer asks you to do something and you say say no, like which you as a citizen have the right to do, law enforcement officer says hey, like watch that door right for me. And you say roger that. Happy to do that. You are now the argument can be made that you are now acting as an agent of the state. Right. And so if you are acting as an agent of the state then the argument can be made that all of the rights and privileges afforded to the state state now fall upon you. And there's a landmark case in the Supreme Court and it involves the national center for Missing and Exploited Children which is a phenomenal organization, right. That helps define missing kids and kids were exploited and all that up in D.C. it is not a government agency. It is a private nonprofit. Now it gets 60 million plus dollars a year from the federal government. So it is the only federally mandated nonprofit. Right. But it is a private non profit. You can go to ncmec or missingkids.org I think it is donate. They're a phenomenal organization. Right. Our country owes them an incredible debt of gratitude. However they, they did work that led to the arrest and conviction of a pedophile. The pedophile 10 ended up being somebody of means and ended up appealing the conviction on grounds that the national center of Missing and Exploited Children because they work with and directly at the behest of law enforcement and because they are federally funded, are an agent of the state. And the Supreme Court said yes, we agree, they are an agent of the state. Damn right.

[Michael]

I mean his defense would have been to throw the government under the bus

[Ryan]

100% and all of his co conspirators.

[Nick]

Any. Oh for sure at that point, any.

[Michael]

Get a pen and paper out. Let's dab this up. Do you want to go alphabetically? Do you want to go numerically?

[Ryan]

I got a black book. I'm just going to give you this black book.

[Nick]

In fact, we're about to do a plea deal that involves me doing nothing. A deferred prosecution agreement we will call it. And every year you were going to give me, we're going to take 10 years off of that for a name that I give. Except this name that's. We're going to just take 100 years off and this name we're going to take. Right. So you could see how any attorney. You wouldn't even have to be. I'm not even an attorney and I could put this together. Right.

[Michael]

You know what sucks about all this? So, I mean, I'll leave people to believe what they want as to whether or not he's alive or dead. There are so many people talking about Epstein and so few people talking about the corruption. And that is where I can see the government intentionally using this as a smokescreen screen. Redacting stuff that doesn't always make sense, leaving things out there, multiple narratives. That's a pretty classic intelligence psyop operation. I mean it's. It didn't come from those worlds, but I mean that's pretty.

[Ryan]

It's a limited hangout.

[Michael]

It's a. It's pretty textbook. If you want them to look over here as opposed to over here, it's. God, it's a tough one.

[Nick]

One.

[Ryan]

And this is why it's bigger than Epstein. So Epstein is the peak behind the curtain. So we're making the case that Epstein's alive because we believe it to be true and this is what the evidence shows and we're going to go where the evidence takes us. What is the real interesting piece, if he's alive, is that it shows the level of corruption and rot in our government. That if we give up on this. I feel strongly that if we give up on a billionaire backed pedophile, used our daughters as leverage over our politicians to exact their bidding in the White House, Congress, Hollywood, for the sake of ends that are inconsistent with the needs of the American people, your vote doesn't matter.

[Michael]

Well, what it actually means in totality is that the IC runs this country, not the elected officials.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

If what you're claiming is true.

[Ryan]

Or a supranational organization that has its hands in all the intelligence agencies.

[Michael]

A cabal, if you will. I don't still know what that term means, but I like it a lot.

[Nick]

That sounds good.

[Ryan]

It's a sexy word.

[Michael]

I have a hard time thinking, thinking that all of this goes to whatever, 20 people in a room throwing levers that are this coordinated. I think rich people want to stay rich. I think powerful people want to stay powerful. I think it's very possible that the intelligence community, and I don't mean everybody in that by any stretch of the imagination, be very clear on that. Because I know there are people who are 100, and I think the vast majority, the.

[Ryan]

The.

[Nick]

The shot callers in. The shot callers on the seventh floors of the various. I mean, we got to keep in mind when we say intelligence community, everybody's

[Michael]

like, oh, it's the CIA.

[Nick]

There's like 16 agencies. Intelligence agency. Yeah. Right.

[Ryan]

So whatever it is, there's something bigger than him here.

[Michael]

And I think that's been clear for a really long time. But what sucks is all of the attention is on him as an individual, which I'm also not against because as you described, he's a monster.

[Ryan]

It.

[Michael]

So I get that. I don't know what the hell. I don't know what we can do about it.

[Ryan]

So before I do what I do now, I worked with rewards for justice, like I mentioned earlier. So we've done is. Is we've created a crowdfunded reward pool for him and put in the first 40 grams. And people have been contributing to this reward pool. And the idea is, is that as that number grows, it incentivizes inner circle betrayal. Say that you run your own criminal terrorist network.

[Michael]

Tell me more. Yeah.

[Nick]

Black rifle coffee.

[Michael]

How did you guys know we're recruiting you?

[Nick]

Evan told us.

[Michael]

Okay, yeah.

[Ryan]

So that you run it. Right. And we're your lead henchmen. Right. And you're over there doing all your.

[Nick]

You had recruiting problems.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. And we're your. We're your lead henchmen and you're doing all the things that you need to be doing. And then I open my phone one day as I'm doom scrolling, and I look at Nick and I say, there's a reward for a million dollars for information about Andy's whereabouts. What do you think about that, man?

[Nick]

Thinking I need to get rid of you so I can get the whole million dollars.

[Michael]

That's the problem. It's going to have to cut how much you have to give to all Uncle Sam. Are these rewards tax free? I mean, I have questions about my tax planning strategy.

[Ryan]

Can I tell my CPA about this?

[Michael]

I think it would have to be a big number, man. The risk they're associated. And again, if the corruption is as deep as a lot of this stuff points, the risk associated with bringing it to the forefront is massive.

[Ryan]

For sure. It is. It's massive risk. The. There are many reasons to tell someone information that others don't want you to know. Money is one. Ideological. Ideological motivation or another.

[Nick]

Ego.

[Ryan]

Ego for sure. Mice. Right. So if. Let's just run this thread, right? Say just give Me the benefit of the doubt. And he's alive out there somewhere.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Ryan]

It's logistically complex to keep someone alive like that. His associates will never be persuaded by a million. 10 million. If people contribute to this over the next 10 years and we get this up to some large enough number that's persuasive as it's growing today, his associates aren't going to be compelled by this because they've got all their money. But you have to have drivers, gardeners, medical assistants, people that will have knowledge pilots, people that have knowledge of this, and they'll have the chance to make history. You could say you're eligible for a payout if you can give us information about proof of life that can be ran down and then can be given to Congress to do nothing with.

[Michael]

I'm sorry, what I think.

[Nick]

Did you say the quiet part out loud again?

[Ryan]

You can't give it to the doj.

[Michael]

Sorry, sorry. I'm trying to get a handle on this brain now.

[Ryan]

Not every congressperson gets it, but there's some triple years in Congress, I think. Yeah, I think there are. There's not many. We're losing them.

[Michael]

But are there.

[Ryan]

They're falling out.

[Michael]

But is there enough to impact change?

[Ryan]

I don't know.

[Michael]

The level of corruption that you're talking about. I'm sorry. Would include every avenue of government that exists.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And so this is the reckoning question.

[Nick]

Both sides of the aisle.

[Michael]

Oh, 100.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Without, without, without a doubt. With their wings of the same bird at this point. It's ridiculous.

[Ryan]

Say it's true, though. This is the question. If we give up on this, we just got to give up on all of this.

[Nick]

It.

[Ryan]

If you give up on the billionaire child trafficker that used our daughters to get leverage over our politicians and then allowed that corruption and rot to persist in our country. And we knew about that and we just said, we're helpless. We give up. Might as well just buy a place in Costa Rica and bounce out. That's why this is important to us. We believe strongly that if the American people give up on this and the rot at the top, we've just basically said, take it all. And I'm not there.

[Michael]

I'm not there yet. Either I'll speak for Nick or make an assumption that he isn't as well. I don't know about him.

[Ryan]

I'm pretty much there. I'm being honest.

[Nick]

He started.

[Ryan]

Good luck, guys. He started there. I'm out of here. Getting the place In Costa Rica, 75%

[Michael]

of the people in the Room isn't bad, I guess. I don't. It's a corruption of a size, scope and scale that even if the Amer, the vast majority of Americans agree we're not going to take this anymore. The. Does that actually mean. What can we do?

[Ryan]

The path to forcing counter leverage means getting to the truth. This whole operation is a leverage operation. They are excellent at being organized and getting leverage. That's what the whole Epstein thing was. So you have to step into their world and play their game. And the way to get counter leverage is to get to the bottom of it, get truth. The mechanism for doing this has some historical precedent. It is not perfect. But the mechanism for doing this historically was the 911 Commission and the Church Committee, where both of those were key American events were tragedy struck and the American people said, we demand answers. Congress, go get them. Now, there's all kinds of problems with that. You have to trust that your Congress people don't have leverage over them. You have to trust that they're going to be forthright.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

You have to trust that they're going to actually provide conclusions that are not swayed by some shadow commission that's actually controlling the levers behind power. None of those things. You can control those variables immediately. But what you could do is create an Epstein Truth Commission. There's state precedent for this.

[Michael]

I would be hesitant to involve anybody currently in the government in doing so. Like the 911 Commission. Unlikely that anybody in elected government was directly involved with the planning and execution of 9 11. Right. You could talk about the intelligence agencies, whether or not they were sharing information appropriately, all of those things. This one's a little bit different.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Because the people that you'd be asking to go create this commission on this tragedy and corruption might very well have a hand in its creation.

[Nick]

Who says that your life's work has to be done in your lifetime. Right. So one of the things, I like what Ryan is doing and I'm not sold that he's alive. Personally, I think, okay, if I was running this intel operation, what would I do? Even if I took him out alive, that dude would be. He'd be finding the bottom of the ocean as fast as I could make that happen. Right. So if you're willing, that's the no

[Michael]

loose ends way to do it for sure.

[Nick]

So if, if you're willing to do. To turn a blind eye to the things that Epstein was doing, you're also willing to do some pretty nasty stuff to Epstein and not keep your word and all of that stuff. Right.

[Michael]

So, okay, well, to you, Epstein would be a simple pawn that would be like a light switch.

[Nick]

Like, of course, yeah. Like, get rid of this guy. Right. It's a strategically positioned pawn, but we built him. We'll build another one. Right. So no problem. So I'm not. None of that is. Again, like, again, I just don't really care about the Epstein thing other than I hope, if he is dead, it was an extremely painful and long and gruesome death where he had lots and lots of time to think and feel. That said, it's that corruption piece, the vote doesn't matter piece. And all of those commissions you just cited had one massive event where a whole lot of. Of people died. So. So government had to move quickly. There's nothing that says that this just begins a conversation that causes the change generationally.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Right. So if all of these people are involved and if somebody tries to do something like this again, or is doing something like this. Right. Like, whoever was in charge of this didn't see the human factor. So one of the things that this. This Sandy, Alaska, this buddy of mine, his name was Dr. Steve Attaway. He died of a heart attack a few years ago. But he. So I can talk about him now. He would say that mathematically, you could model all kinds of things, right? You could. You can model that light. You can model all kinds of things, right? I mean, so when. When Elon is. Is trying to do, like, space station docking, right? And it goes perfectly, everybody's like, oh, wow, I got it right on the first try. No, they didn't. They had a mathematical model that they ran probably hundreds of thousands of times under every single condition variable, right? It wasn't the first time it happened. It's just the first time it happened in the physical world. There's. He said there's. There's three things that they couldn't mathematically model. One was a flag blowing in the wind. The other was a flame coming off of fire. The other was the actions of a human being right there. There are incalculable variables. Nobody saw the Epstein files getting released. Nobody saw, like, these. If there are people involved, they were like, we got this. We control Congress. We control this. Yeah, people are going to have their thing, and we'll feed them cake and circuses and. And they'll go on to the next thing. I don't think anybody thought that this conversation would continue. And this is where.

[Michael]

And it's not slowing down.

[Nick]

It's not slowing down. It's gaining steam. And this is where the arrogance comes in. Because evil doesn't know it's evil, right? So Nick the fat electrician and myself and I was having a conversation on the unsubscribed podcast about the difference between bad and evil. I heard people do bad things. You know, people who've done bad things, and they know they did did bad things, right? And they're kind of haunted by it. But, like, people who are evil, they, like, that's their worldview. They don't know what they're doing is evil. And so what if there is. If there are people behind this, right, that made this happen, they're evil. That's the only way they could. They could turn a blind eye to the abuse of children. Like there is no other plausible explanation, right? You are an evil, evil person. So if they are evil, they aren't thinking hurting kids is a bridge too far. They're thinking, we've done this before in other things, and the American public's going to be all up in arms about it, and they're going to move on in six months. Like, we've seen this, so we're just going to do it again. This time it's just a little bit different. And I think that that to me is like, if I had to explain why this caught catches so much more attention than all of the other conspiracies, right? No one's doing this kind of work on, like, JFK conspiracy or there are people who. Last year I was having a conversation, I thought flat earth was a meme. Turns out, like, it's real. People, like, honestly believe that. I was like, whoa, okay, so, like, people are having these kinds of conversations about that. The reason why this is like, the American public is a dog with his bone and they won't let go is because of the harm of children. And I think that's the bridge that they didn't calculate for. And that's why this has turned into the mess that it. That it has.

[Ryan]

I think those people are also starting to see that it's bigger than that. Like, that is reprehensible. And that is the hook for them to understand it, because they look at this power structure and it's willing to go to any lengths to preserve and serve itself. It's a machine that exists to feed itself constantly, forever, at any cost, all

[Nick]

for the greater good.

[Michael]

That's honestly what it comes back to. If you go under the. Operate under the hypothesis that he did hold the position that many people think and working with, by and through the government, all those things. At some point, a government official is going to have to stand up and say one of two things. We didn't know and we found out, you know, we did something about it. Which good luck showing the receipts on that. OR two, it was for the greater good and we turned a blind eye. And yeah, that means we know that minors were abused, children were abused and it destroyed their lives. Yeah.

[Nick]

I mean it's.

[Michael]

It's a rough day at the office.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Not a party.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

Not a party. I think Nick's point is good that this is just getting started. I think it's probably a good observation that this isn't going to go anywhere.

[Nick]

No. Like this isn't going to stop it. And the problem also is for them as they can't control the media. Here we are sitting on a, A, a podcast. Hopefully you've been collecting email addresses like go for it. YouTube sensor. Go for it. Instagram. Go for. Go for it.

[Michael]

Why don't you just go ahead and say that on your own show?

[Nick]

Yeah, sorry. It's really easy to say things when you don't incur the consequences of the

[Ryan]

things that you say.

[Nick]

Edit that out.

[Michael]

But if that's what the cost of getting to the truth is, Send it. I don't care.

[Nick]

There. Yeah. And that's.

[Michael]

Start over. What? Like whatever.

[Ryan]

Send it, baby. You know, let's go. Let's go. And I think that he would have been kept alive because to me it would have been negligent to not have this leverage systematized and stored.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

If you kill him and it all comes out, it's a dead man switch. He dies. Auto release. It would be negligent to not have that. It also signals to other operatives. You talked about this earlier. He's not the first.

[Michael]

He can't be.

[Nick]

He can't be.

[Michael]

He cannot be.

[Ryan]

There's others out there.

[Michael]

The redundancy aspect is very, very real. Even in military operations. Primary, secondary, tertiary. You know, like you think your way all through that stuff and you have contingencies in place so you can continue to do your job and execute the mission.

[Ryan]

100. So was it signal to other guys if he rots in a jail cell.

[Michael]

Yeah. Or it's drug out in front of a courtroom.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And embarrassed. All that brought out. Humiliated. They can't let that happen. So you put together motive, means, all these pieces of evidence and it brings you to the conclusion that of the three options, the simplest answer is that he left the cell alive. And I don't know if he's still alive. Nick brings a good point. Like he could have been smoked since then. Right. Or just died of natural causes. He wasn't a healthy guy. But it deserves investigation. And a truth commission can use congressional subpoena power to demand answers to this. Here's how you could prove me wrong. It's not hard actually to prove me wrong. It's actually very simple. Congress performs the role that the FBI has abdicated in the pursuit of this cover up, and they use their subpoena authority to get medical records and burial records at the graveyard that he's allegedly buried in, an unmarked grave in Palm Beach County.

[Michael]

I was gonna ask, what did they do with his body?

[Ryan]

He's allegedly buried in an unmarked grave.

[Nick]

That isn't that convenient.

[Ryan]

And so there's allegedly.

[Michael]

I don't know if you would want to mark that grave. Yeah, people would be digging that up. So logistically that actually might be the move.

[Ryan]

You could perform a double blind DNA test, triple blind DNA test at multiple laboratories with strict chain of custody controls to determine if this DNA matches his brother or whoever. And congressional subpoena authority could dig into this and determine, okay, is he buried down there? If that is his body, prove it to the American people.

[Nick]

I think I just heard a backhoe start in Palm Beach County.

[Michael]

That's what I'm saying. Maybe unmarked. Might be people like, is it this one? Nope. Where's the nearest unmarked grave?

[Ryan]

Keep digging.

[Nick]

That backhoe had government plates. Yeah, right. So, yeah, it's. It, it's actually pretty easy to disprove. Also, the unredacted stuff. You could very easily say, okay, we're going to have a commission that's going to go through and we're going to say we are going to protect the innocent as we should, because that's the right thing to do as a country. We're going to protect the names of victims and we have essentially these disinterested third parties that are going to determine what does and does not get redacted. We're not going to leave that to the very people in question.

[Michael]

And aren't the files that are out now, aren't they mainly or if not exclusively FBI or law enforcement files?

[Nick]

That's my understanding.

[Michael]

I would love to see what the agency has on this guy. I don't know if you can. Foia, Agency files. I think if you can, I know the response that you would get to said foia, but go away. They would give you the. We cannot confirm or deny. They would give you a. Just a blanket one. But man, that'd be fascinating if there was A way to compel intelligence agency files.

[Nick]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and tell a story that I think I'm not gonna get in trouble for telling.

[Ryan]

Let's go. Let's go.

[Nick]

So polygraphs happen. That's public. Everybody knows that, right? That's not classified. Procedures and processes. We won't get around that. But I was selected for random poly. Let's just say it's kind of like a random drug test, right? Selected for random poly. All right, go and do the thing. And there's this, like, child sitting on the other side of the table. I mean, it was literally maybe, like, week one, day one, Brand new to the. Brand new to the gang. And they're sitting there asking me all kinds of stuff, right? They're looking for a threat to pull on, and. And they're asking me things. And she gets to the it. I've been through these before, and this one is very clearly like, I almost kind of, like, want to be giving her pointers on, like, how to be better at her job, right? But it's taken.

[Michael]

It's taken a while, this question. You might get a different physiological response, right?

[Nick]

It's taken a while.

[Ryan]

And.

[Nick]

And so she starts asking about drugs and whatnot. And part of it is one of the questions that she ended up asking. And I don't know if this is something I ask everybody or whatever, but it was about prescription drugs, right? Like using or giving prescriptions, prescription drugs to other people. And I was like, oh, yeah, right. And so she's like, oh, thread to pull on. And so she starts asking me more, and then it's like, well, what about narcotics? It's like, oh, yeah, right. And I'm talking all this stuff, and on all of what I think in her mind was my abuse of prescription drugs. You know where this is going, right? I was a pj. What are we running around with? Narcs, all kinds of prescription drugs, and we are not doctors, and we like. Right? Like, under the civil system, that would be illegal. Under the military, that's what we do. And so I'm sitting there just having this very casual conversation with her, and she's very. It's clear to me that she thinks she's pulling on a thread. I'm being the most transparent and detailed in my answers, and she's taking all kinds of furious notes.

[Michael]

She didn't have the context.

[Nick]

She didn't have the context that I had that I assumed she had. I tend to be the ass in the. Assume quite often in my life, actually. And so she's like, okay, I need to. If you admit to a crime in a polygraph as a federal employee, there are consequences for that.

[Ryan]

Right?

[Nick]

So she stops it. And she's like, basically reading a paragraph from a piece of paper, making it clear that I have rights. And. And I stopped. I was like, hold on. I said, we talked about all this stuff. I said, where. Where is any crime? She's like, well, you just admitted all this stuff in prescription drugs. I was like, yeah, because of my military background. Like, it was a pj. It was a sock, Em. I was a like, call him whatever you want. I was a guy who's. That was my job. Those were government drugs that I was trained to give people.

[Michael]

Like, yeah, this wasn't the corner of 4 in Maine, right?

[Nick]

And she was like, oh, okay. I was like, didn't you read that in my file? She's like, oh, no, there's no file. And I was like, come again? Like, I have filled out a lot of paperwork, and you're telling me you guys don't have the common courtesy to hold on to it?

[Michael]

And she's like, oh, no, you're.

[Nick]

She's like, you're a US Citizen. As soon as your clearance is adjudicated, we have to get rid of all of the information we use within 30 days. So the Agency, I am pretty convinced, probably doesn't have anything, because US Citizen, I would be more interested.

[Michael]

What if he was a source or an asset?

[Nick]

I cannot get into how that works. But it's not the way that you think. And a source or an asset has full constitutional rights. 1.

[Michael]

We'll just sleep with that.

[Nick]

It wouldn't be the agency that I would think would. Would be the actual problem, because who is the proponent for intelligence inside the United States of America? Who's responsible for all intelligence and counterintelligence inside the United States of America. And if, say, a CIA special agent is going to go do something in the United States of America, or a CIA case officer or something, he's going to do something. Something in the United States of America and US Citizen involve. Who has to be with them? The FBI people, when they hear intelligence agency, they always think the Central Intelligence Agency. Right. It is the FBI that is an equally robust intelligence agency. FBI, the. I may as well stand for intelligence. Right? So 9, 11 failures. Who bears the major majority of that weight? Based on the reports, assuming they're true, it's the Bureau, Right. Which agency has had a. Since its inception. Right. Since Hoover really has had a history of being Weaponized for intelligence purposes against, say, the Black Panthers or mlk. Any. Yeah, mlk. Any number. Like. Like. So there is a repeating historical pattern here when it comes to intelligence, also based on some stuff that we know about, say the kidnap or attempted kidnapping of a governor. Right. Those types of things. Who has a history of essentially trying to instigate criminals into doing criminal things.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Nick]

So for me. Right. And I'm not just saying that because, you know, like, I work at the Agency, like, good God, the stories I could tell. Right. But to me, it's. If you're going to look in an intelligence and you want to see where a file is, who has the authority and the mandate to keep files on U.S. citizens.

[Michael]

Yeah, that makes sense, actually.

[Nick]

Right.

[Ryan]

And we know they've got more. We know for sure they've got way, way more. Yeah.

[Michael]

Do you think we'll ever see it?

[Ryan]

No, I don't. I. Not in this administration. Maybe in a future administration.

[Michael]

And then I worry the longer they hold on to stuff, the more that they can manipulate stuff. And so if we do end up seeing things in the future and the

[Nick]

more stuff disappears, destroy it, or the more they backstop current narratives and we're

[Michael]

at a place now where you can create things that look God damn near real.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You know it. That's why I said. I think I said the very beginning. I don't think we'll ever get closure on this. Because even if they say, hey, this is everything. How do you know?

[Ryan]

Yeah, it's a good question. Especially the further you get from it, the more time they have to destroy information. Now they can just conjure it up. You could throw some of these documents, 100 documents in the clod, and say, make something that says this thing, and then it's going to spit out a document that looks just like it into

[Michael]

orbit with what you can create with these tools. And that's. Now what does that look like in 5 years? Full motion videos that are indistinguishable. Drone footage of, you know, Epstein boxing Mike Tyson on his island. I mean, what's it going to look like? So.

[Nick]

So if. If what Ryan is doing is using the Epstein to get people to pay attention.

[Michael]

Right.

[Nick]

That's the bright flare.

[Michael]

Yeah. And again, it's. To me, it's not about Epstein, it's

[Nick]

about what's the flare illuminate.

[Michael]

It's the. What seems to be, by all measurements, an insane amount of corruption. And I just hope that there is actually something that we can do about it. Like, I don't Know how you leave these conversations with any hope that we have the ability to correct that corruption or get it into check, because no one agency was managed managing this by himself.

[Nick]

Oh, God, no, no.

[Michael]

I mean, how deep could it potentially go? That. That is what pisses me off. I agree with you. I just hope he had a really extended. Medically induced. And held on to departure. Just really nurse it.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

I hope he's dead too.

[Nick]

Experiments. Yeah.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I think the. The first step is you gotta just convince people that there is corruption. Like, people, do we really need to.

[Michael]

I think we're past that step. Right.

[Ryan]

I don't. I don't.

[Nick]

So.

[Ryan]

So his comment earlier, he's like, oh, yeah, I've been there. Like, I. I get it. Right. This is a friend of mine who brought his kids to dinner.

[Michael]

Where have you been, Michael?

[Ryan]

What's that?

[Michael]

Where have you been?

[Ryan]

Earlier you made the comment about, like. Yeah, you're kind of, like, aware of this. Like, there's, you know, we're talking about corruption.

[Michael]

Do you think there's government corruption?

[Ryan]

Oh, without a doubt.

[Michael]

How about your generation? What do you mean?

[Ryan]

My. Oh, oh, what's the opinion of.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Speak for your entire generation, Your friends forever. Yeah.

[Ryan]

You're the official representative. Oh, I mean, nobody has any faith, I mean, like, at all. In the government.

[Nick]

At all.

[Ryan]

Did you begin that way when you signed in the military, or you. Or when I became a federal agent.

[Michael]

No.

[Nick]

Right.

[Ryan]

This is a generational transition.

[Nick]

I had willful blinders on. And quite frankly, like, I held them

[Michael]

on when people were trying to rip them off.

[Nick]

Yes. I. I would. I would go so far as to say for a period of time in my mid-20s, early to mid-20s, that flag was my religion.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Like, I was that into it. And that's really hard. You're going through this hard stuff. Right. I graduate PJ School, my two best friends both die within six months. And it's like, you're going through that and. And you're like, oh, but all this stuff, like, that doesn't mean what you think it does. Like, that is a. Like, no, I'm not gonna look over there because I'm gonna. Because I've told myself all this stuff and they have told me all this stuff, and surely they're right.

[Michael]

It can mean what you think it does. It just doesn't mean that everybody else feels that way.

[Nick]

Agreed.

[Michael]

I still feel the same way about that flag. I just realize that not everybody does. I still believe that that flag can stand for the beacon and lighthouse that I Want this country to be. Which is what drives me insane about the corruption. Because I think that. I think that flag stands for truth. It does to me. I'm not. And that. And that's just me. Maybe. Maybe Jury's probably back on this one. Maybe I'm an idiot. But it still means that. That to me, for sure. It's jarring when you realize to some it's transactional. To others, it's a stepping stone to get to where they want to be. Even though they'll say, this is what it means to me too. But there's this crazy divergence between what they say and what they do. I think if we can get more people to understand that, it still can mean that. But that means getting to the root issue, getting to the truth, and then doing something about it. And again, that's why the. It's. I don't know. God. People will probably view this conversation of, oh, good job doing an episode for Clickbait. It's like, first off, just step back and eat your own dick. But if you're flexible enough, I don't want anybody to hurt themselves.

[Ryan]

You can try, though.

[Michael]

I do have cargo straps if people need assistance with their L5 flexibility.

[Nick]

Hey, here's something for you.

[Michael]

Oh. Oh, these. Oh, these are Michael's favorite snacks. Eat a bag of dicks.

[Ryan]

All flavors.

[Michael]

Yeah, it is. It can still be that.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I believe. I'm not. I'm not ready to throw in the towel. It just seems so overwhelming. I don't know what to do.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Other than to do my best to have conversations like this, which have absolutely, really nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Nick]

Right.

[Michael]

And everything to do with trying to figure out a way to get to truth when it would seem like from every direction, people are just hucking things.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Michael]

To try to obscure your. So you get this passing view through the bullshit that's being thrown at a glimpse of the truth.

[Ryan]

We are in an epistemological crisis. Epistemology is the science of studying how you know what you know. The United States is in a crisis right now that is one generation away from death. Where if you have a generation that says, we're not giving up on the truth, that flag means something to me. And then my kids generation, or even ones are a little bit older, say, yeah, it's always been corrupt. It's always this way. We'll never know the truth after that. It's lost.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

The clock is ticking.

[Michael]

I mean, there always has been an aspect of corruption. I'm sure the founding fathers were Awesome. I would love to get a time machine and give them, like, a week in 2026. Be like, hey, guys, how did we do?

[Nick]

Look at all the stuff you didn't see coming.

[Ryan]

Check it out. You guys want to see the Internet?

[Michael]

Yeah. Here's the thing, though. 0% chance that they were all 100% altruistic. There's always.

[Nick]

We know. We know they weren't. We have documentation. They were.

[Michael]

And that's what I'm saying. Like, there's always been an aspect, and there's always going to be people who see something other than the truth. Truth or what it could actually stand for or what it could be or become or what it means. Doesn't mean the whole system needs to be lit on fire.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Michael]

What do you want to leave people with? We've been at this for almost three hours.

[Ryan]

Oh, wow.

[Nick]

I got. I got a quick question for. For Ryan. Based on what it is that you're doing here, how's your physical health? Heart in good condition.

[Ryan]

Yeah. So I gotta give the. The speech. Okay. I'm in. In great physical shape. I work out six days a week.

[Michael]

Are you suicidal?

[Ryan]

I'm not suicidal.

[Nick]

Jiu jitsu black belt.

[Ryan]

I can.

[Nick]

And as of January, Congratulations.

[Ryan]

I can swim. I'm a pretty good swimmer. I have great maintenance on my car. My brakes are in great condition.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I love life. And I'm more happy now than I've ever been in my adult life, despite all the dark. The dark conversation.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

I have a wonderful life. I have an incredible wife. Wife who lets me go and talk to people about crazy stuff like Epstein. I have amazing children. And I. I. You know, at the risk of sounding, like, a little dramatic, I want the next generation to have the hope that I did about my country. And if we just let it go,

[Michael]

isn't that what it's actually all about?

[Ryan]

That's what it's all about, man. That's what it's about.

[Nick]

It's supposed to be leaver.

[Michael]

That.

[Nick]

Leave it better than you found it.

[Ryan]

Better than you found it.

[Michael]

What other questions do you have for Ryan?

[Nick]

No, that was the right one.

[Ryan]

Thanks, buddy.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

It's on the record. You heard it here. If I show up dead.

[Michael]

Here's the thing, though. Let just take that clip and change it to AI Be like, I am depressed.

[Ryan]

I binge eat Oreos. I cry myself to sleep.

[Michael]

Where should we leave people? Where do you guys want to leave people? Reality? Is this on the epine stuff? I recommend that people do as much research as they can and make up your own mind?

[Ryan]

Absolutely.

[Michael]

I don't know.

[Ryan]

That's it. Thanks for having me on. Nick. Really enjoyed this conversation. You're a truth seeker. You've cared about these issues and one similar to them. And talking truth seekers to truth seekers are two classes of people in the United States as far as I'm concerned. There's the truth seekers and the secret keepers. And if you're a truth seeker, I'd say go look at the evidence for yourself. Epsteinisintdead.org It's a campaign of closed horizon and we make the case for this. Make your own conclusion. And if it is compelling to you, the reward pool is the mechanism by which we create inner circle betrayal to get proof of life. And you can also go to take action on our website and you can send an email to your legislators. It's copy and paste. We tell you who your legislators are to demand an Epstein truth commission.

[Michael]

Nick, what do you want to close out with? Just keep telling people to use the Internet in the ways that they do and that you'll find them eventually.

[Nick]

Yeah, just bad guys. Just keep doing what you're doing. One of the things that, that we've talked about so many times when I've been on this podcast is like, like, is like why is there a need for deliver fund? Yeah, that's why. Right. Do you think that members of Congress are like, oh, we're gonna abolish the ATF and we're gonna turn it into the anti trafficking, you know, federation. Yeah, let's do that. I'll put my signature on that. Or are they going, ooh, that hits a little close to home. We're gonna table that and commission committee. Right?

[Ryan]

Yeah. So.

[Nick]

So this also is a little bit of an example and I understand it's a very, it's very self serving.

[Michael]

Don't look to the government to solve all your problems.

[Ryan]

No, it's coming to save you.

[Michael]

Yeah. And civilian organizations can be way more

[Nick]

nimble and, and way more effective. Way more effective. And. And so we. So this is kind of evidence of what it is. I've been saying for eight, nine, 10 years, which is the reason this isn't being funded at the federal level is because they're in on it now that we're working with some folks in D.C. at the Federal level who are very interested in getting to the bottom of this and what we're doing because what are they always. How do you get something done in the federal government? It needs a budget line item. What we're doing in D.C. we're just gonna fund it. So we're taking the wind out of the. We don't have funding for this sales, which has taken it from a political appointee. And they were like, oh, okay, that makes sense to me. Yeah, do it. So they were able to use their authority without having to go to Congress and ask for money to get some data into a place that it needs to go to have what I would call an incalculable impact. So by us, that's, I think, also partly how we save it is these public private partnerships. So if your theory about personnel in the FBI or the DOJ wanting to kind of help folks like yourself out, well, then it's up to us to then do our part. So the public private partnership is really important. And the last thing I would say is, like, if you want your vote to matter, then there are so many good people who are listening this podcast who, if you ask them, when are you gonna run for state office? When are you gonna run for city council? When are you gonna run for senate? When are you gonna run for governor? And we're talking, like, normies who would be amazing at that job. People need to start stepping up. Because when I look at the. When I look at our choices, I go to the voting booth and I look at our choices, what I see is I'm like, these. This is not very impressive.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's the lesser of evils often.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And so. So, like, we really need people who have, say are very financially sound, had a great, you know, run running the family plumbing supply store, exited it to whoever. Now they're, you know, they're financially sound, never served the country, paid your taxes, did all that great. Like, now's the chance, like, you're. You're in your 60s, you're not going to join the military, but you can step up and run for governor and run for these elected positions. City council, school board. Right. County commissioner. Like that, to me is one of the ways that we get this changed is we change the political class. The only way that's going to happen. And I say this in hypocrisy because I'm not running for anything. I also kind of feel like I've done my part, you know, and so we really need other people to step up and say, okay, I can do this. And also, I would say I'd probably be a pretty terrible politician, because, like,

[Ryan]

Nick, I can't say that on camera. Stop. Stop.

[Nick]

I would be so far over the line of where I was supposed to be that I would probably end up in the federal prison.

[Ryan]

Back in. Someone get him.

[Nick]

Yeah, so anyway, that would be the. The thing I would say is like, people need to start running for office because that's how we'll have that generational change.

[Michael]

Thanks, Jens.

[Ryan]

Thank you.

[Michael]

That was a long one, but good.

[Nick]

What do you think about the marketing

[Ryan]

is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ad ads, go to libsynads.

[Michael]

Com.

[Ryan]

That's L, I B S Y N Ads. Com Today.