Working for Kanye, Building "Items" for Delta Force | Justin Klahn | Ep. 445

Summary

Cleared Hot – Ep. 445: Working for Kanye, Building "Items" for Delta Force | Justin Klahn

Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: Justin Klahn
Date: April 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this rich, wide-ranging episode, Andy sits down with Justin Klahn — an innovator with deep experience at Nike, in the elite military community, and as a consultant for organizations as diverse as Kanye West’s business empire and various government agencies. The two dive into Justin’s background, philosophy on life and leadership, and hands-on stories from building “items” for Delta Force to learning from Kanye’s creative process. The conversation is dense with insights on innovation, excellence, legacy, humility, faith, and the challenges of navigating complex environments — whether they're corporate conference rooms, the world of celebrity, or the front lines of national security.

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Major Themes & Discussion Points

1. Personal Journeys, Relationships & Hard Lessons Learned

• Both men reflect openly on marriage, divorce, and the lessons that come from personal struggle. They discuss how their backgrounds and upbringings influenced how they pursue relationships and success.
• Notable Quote:

  “If I could go back in time, not that my younger self would listen… First, I’d be like: dude, bitcoin. The other thing is: wait for marriage.” — Justin Klahn (06:31)

• They explore the value of traditional values versus modern adaptation and the impact of mentorship and parental modeling.
• Both emphasize that enduring hardship and learning from mistakes is central to personal growth — especially as fathers.

2. Navigating Complexity: From Nike to JSOC and Beyond

• Justin tells the story of his unconventional entry into Nike, beginning as a martial arts instructor, and how relationships, not résumés, opened doors.
• He draws deep comparisons between top-level innovation at Nike and elite special operations units like CAG/Delta Force.
• Key parallels between innovation and special ops: obsession with 1% improvements, relentless pursuit of excellence, and the importance of humility.
• Notable Quote:

  “Winning is taking home the prize and not getting killed. In the life and death world, 1% or a tenth of a second is everything.” — Justin (64:49)

3. Innovation, Legacy, and Control (or Lack Thereof)

• The conversation explores how organizations (Apple, Nike, even bloodlines) build legacies across generations — and the internal cultures, controls, and values required.
• Notable Quote:

  “To be a thousand-year-old family business, there has to be a programming — a commitment — for your children to carry it on. With every year the legacy grows, so does the weight.” — Justin (31:12)

• They debate the limits and realities of control in complex systems: Can the world be controlled? Who really shapes culture? Are conspiracy theories rooted in truth?

4. Working for Kanye West: Lessons on Creativity, Leadership, and Chaos

• Andy presses Justin on what it was like to work for Kanye, and what, if anything, could be learned from such a famously erratic creative.
• Justin shares the challenge and value of adapting to others’ thinking styles, learning to not interrupt creative rants, and how to add value without becoming part of the spectacle.
• Memorable Moment:

  “He said, ‘Look, man, I need you to stop interrupting me. You break my flow. I’m trying to get somewhere, I’m working through a problem.’ It changed how I listen and how I communicate with everyone.” — Justin (124:31)

5. Supernatural, Faith, and the Limits of Human Knowledge

• A deep dive into the role of faith, the limits of reason, and the possibility (and reality) of supernatural experiences.
• They openly discuss their views on spirituality, religion, and the way faith can serve as a ballast in chaotic times — and the dangers of nihilism or arrogance about what we know.
• Notable Quote:

  “My favorite answer in this phase of life is: I don’t know.” — Andy (40:54) “If you haven’t entertained the possibility something greater exists, you might miss the signals around you.” — Justin (203:30)

6. Practical Innovation: Stories from Nike, Delta, and Beyond

• The “pantry” at Nike — an elite innovation lab — and how bringing specialized knowledge and humility allows value creation at the highest level.
• Stories of building gear — including combat boots, socks, packs, and even sled-dog booties — for special operations, and how even tiny improvements are prized.
• Meetings between elite athletes (Kobe Bryant) and elite operators (Delta) reveal mutual respect and the universality of the drive to win.
• Memorable Exchange (78:03–81:04):
  • Delta Force member to Kobe:

    “We’d love to see you do that while people are shooting at you.”

  • The fleeting moment grounds the room in mutual respect for excellence — whether on a court or in combat.

7. Building a Book with Modern Tools — and a Philosophy of Sharing

• Justin details how he wrote his book (The Innovators Handbook) using video stories, AI transcription, and generative AI tools (ChatGPT and Claude), emphasizing process over perfection.
• He encourages others to tell their stories, as “everyone’s story helps others relate” and breaks the illusion of isolation.
• Notable Quote:

  “The more people share their stories, the less people feel they’re alone in their struggles.” — Justin (170:53)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |------------|---------|-------| | 06:31 | Justin | “If I could go back in time… bitcoin. The other thing: wait for marriage.” | | 17:07 | Justin | “Where everything should evolve to is being better… choosing a partner you want to show up for.” | | 21:25 | Andy | “Talking to my father… he probably associates more with liberalism as he was growing up, but doesn’t recognize what the left even means anymore.” | | 64:49 | Justin | "In the life and death world, it’s always about 1%. Give me 1% or a tenth of a second. Or an ounce.” | | 78:03–81:04| Both | Mutual respect between Delta and elite athletes: ultimate competition and purpose. | | 124:31 | Justin | “Every time you interrupt me, you break my flow… I’m trying to get somewhere.” (on Kanye) | | 203:30 | Justin | “I would just encourage everyone to find a faith… if you haven’t even entertained that, you probably won’t see the magic and the special things happening around you as supernatural.” |

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• On Divorce, Legacy, and Advice to Younger Selves: [04:20–10:10]
• Corporate and Tier One Innovation Parallels: [56:52–70:05]
• Culture, Control, and Can the World Be Controlled?: [23:01–34:46]
• Inside Nike’s Innovation ‘Pantry’, Relationships, and Breaking In: [92:01–98:52]
• Working with Delta Force, Parallels with High-Performance Teams: [56:52–70:05]
• Kanye West Stories – What You Learn Working for a Tornado: [111:01–125:54]
• Faith and Supernatural Experiences: [157:00–162:41]
• The Innovators Handbook: How Justin Wrote the Book with AI: [169:31–189:11]
• Closing Reflections on Leadership, Faith, and Humanity: [202:56–208:10]

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Tone, Language, and Delivery

The episode is conversational, candid, and authentic. Both men move fluidly between deep philosophical discussions, savage self-deprecation, and raw stories from the front edges of military, business, and cultural life. They’re unafraid to question sacred cows or admit ignorance, and they hold space for vulnerability alongside humor.

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Where to Find Justin Klahn & His Work

• Book: Innovators Handbook – Available on Amazon.
• LinkedIn: Best place to connect directly; search “Justin Klahn”.
• YouTube: Channel with unedited video stories under “Innovators Handbook”.

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Closing Note

Justin signs off with a call for humility and faith — not in any particular religion, but in remaining open to something greater than oneself and leading with compassion. Andy seconded this, underscoring the importance of empathy and continuing to seek understanding, no matter how complex the world becomes.

“See each other as human. See that we’re all struggling through this high-friction environment… Lead with compassion.” – Justin (203:30)

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For listeners who value lessons in excellence, resilience, and navigating complexity — whether in the world of innovation, elite performance, or messy personal lives — this is essential, engaging listening.

Transcript

[A]

You didn't start a business just to keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday. You're here to win. Lucky for you, Shopify built the best converting checkout on the planet. Like the just one tapping ridiculously fast, acting sky high sales stacking champion at checkouts. That's the good stuff right there. So if your business is in it to win it, win with Shopify. Start your free trial [e-mail] win. Okay, got the red smoke.

[B]

Sun runs north and south west of the smoke. West of the smoke.

[A]

Okay, copy. West of the smoke.

[B]

I'm looking at danger close now. Come on with it, baby. Give it to me. I mean it. I feel like the government failed because if it was a compliance test, they went overboard and now if there was something real that did come out, people would say you and then drop dead. It's true, you know, so I don't know, I don't know what they would have gotten out of that Test other than FearWorks is a compliance mechanism and you got to see how people reacted to that. But it pushed some people, a lot of people, so hard that even in probably in the face of evidence showing to the contrary, I don't know if they would do anything. So I don't know.

[A]

It's complicated.

[B]

It is. I mean, what.

[A]

So what data, people driving around alone in their car with masks on.

[B]

Yeah, I saw that a little bit though. I mean, you've seen this. I'm sure Asian countries specifically, like masking is not that uncommon in a lot of other areas. And a lot of them do it just because they don't feel well. It's like a societal thing. I see that and I just assume that either a, they have some like a illness or whatnot or maybe it's like, I mean, who might have tell people to live their life if you want to wear a safety mask, if it's your comfort mask. Go to town, dude. Go to fucking town.

[A]

You know, I mean, I'm not my choice. I'm always impressed with your ability to mediate a situation that's complicated and a little bit, let's say there's triggers on both sides and I've watched you walk a good tight.

[B]

Not if you don't pull them though.

[A]

Well, exactly.

[B]

I mean, you could sit there. I mean, I just traveled home yesterday. It's. I wasn't able to link up with you. I was coming back from San Diego, where you're headed shortly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, on every airplane I've been on since COVID Or just to say in the airport, like, 1 to 2% of people are wearing masks, right? And people want to jump down their throat or try to hypothesize or assume why somebody might want to wear one of those things. And I have super limited bandwidth to begin with, so, you know, and one of my favorite sayings is not everything is being asked to be judged by me. I didn't live by that saying when I was younger. By the way we came. Maturity mistakes.

[A]

I see some scars. So, yeah, for sure.

[B]

Michael, we forgot to turn on the lights that highlight the weapons in the corner.

[A]

Oh,

[B]

no, again.

[A]

Are those all clean hot?

[B]

Yes. There you go. That's definitely my fault. But I'll figure out a way in my mind at least, to wrap that around back to being.

[A]

Well, it's always my fault. Your job's just to look pretty and speak eloquently.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Speechless.

[B]

I don't know if I could do either of those very well. Where would you like to begin, sir? You're saying a little walk over here. You've been on the front leading edge of industry. Did you say the early aughts? You said about 2000.

[A]

Yeah, well, specific. Specific to this conversation just because. Well, if we're rolling here.

[B]

We are.

[A]

I got to start off by saying Happy anniversary to my lady because it's our anniversary today and I'm not coming out today, though. I woke up next to you. I know, but we're did not wake

[B]

up next to me. Let's open with a blank canvas here. We met.

[A]

I was taking a nap. I was taking a nap at the couch.

[B]

You were awake. I was watching you from a distance. It's fine.

[A]

Anyway, I just got to say happy anniversary because I'm not home. And if I don't say that whenever this airs, you know, I'll be a homeless guy when I get back to neon today. How long you been married? Haven't been married. I mean, not married at the time right now, but I was married for 20 years. That's another story. But same here.

[B]

19 years and 11 months.

[A]

As we can definitely commiserate on the two years of suffering that you talked about recently on Jocko and some other times, you know, how old were you

[B]

when you got divorced?

[A]

I don't know. Let's see.

[B]

How old were you when you got

[A]

married in those terms? But I got. We got married when I was 23.

[B]

So did I. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

I think I got a few years on you in life, but.

[B]

Yeah, but it's Interesting.

[A]

And it was 19 years and some months as well. And for me, it was two kids. And. And as you say, I wouldn't wish that divorce on my worst enemy kind of a thing. It was. It was war. And same here. But I wasn't trying to go to war. And, you know, and.

[B]

Yeah, but same here. I would go through every ounce of things that were not in. Not only the divorce process, but every relationship, obviously has its ups and downs. I would go through every bit of the downs again because it would still net me my kids.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

And it lands me in a weird place because I don't know your thoughts on this. If I could go back in time, not that my younger self would listen to anything. There's two things I would say. First, one, I'd be like, dude, bitcoin. Now,

[A]

let me interrupt you there. My son, who is now almost. He's going to be 31 here in a week. He put bitcoin on my radar when it first dropped when he was a teenager. He goes, hey, dad, we should just throw 100 bucks into this.

[B]

I think it would be worth $1.8 trillion right now.

[A]

And I was like. And, you know, here I am, a guy at Nike at the time and thinking I'm on the cutting edge of the world and not in tech at the time. But, yeah, and he. He. He's a. He's kind of a tech smarty, you know, good for him. Well read. And he puts it on my radar and tries to talk me through it, and I'm like, you know, I just. I don't know about this stuff like most old salty dogs that don't want to change. So, yeah, of course, everybody's got a story about, like, you know, my dad could have bought in Microsoft stock.

[B]

Apple, right?

[A]

Or Apple or whatever.

[B]

And.

[A]

And yeah, so anyway.

[B]

But the other thing I would tell myself is weight for marriage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't even recognize the young man I was when I was 23. But again, I could, if I told myself to wait. I wouldn't have my kids, so I wouldn't tell myself that. But that's also the advice that I give to my children is just,

[A]

man, just. It's like a confessional here. You're opening up already. And no, I try to be open

[B]

about this stuff, people.

[A]

And now I'm gonna be like, well, you know, I never told anyone this,

[B]

but, oh, you don't have to do that.

[A]

Well, I mean, when you say your advice to your younger self would have been, wait, you know, for me, I Mean, I was raised by a father who everybody respects. He passed, but old fashioned, you know, and. And so I was raised very old fashioned with kind of. I don't know how you treat, you know, you stand on the traffic side or you walk on the traffic side of the street. All the things, you open the doors.

[B]

Traditional rules. Yeah.

[A]

Yep. And I think when I was. When I married my wife of almost 20 years, I think I had. Well, I dated four women at that time and I'd married two of them. And she was my second marriage at 23.

[B]

So is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. I tell you what, I just got back from the grand opening of their headquarters on the western edge of Missoula. And what a fantastic evolution. Thousands of people were there. They were waiting all night long. They were getting a tour of the knife building facility. That was the opening of their Black Rifle coffee shop there. A lot of people there from Black Rifle, obviously all the staff from Montana Knife Company. But you know why everybody else? Not by everybody. Do you know why they were all there? They were supporting the brand that Josh and Brandon and so many others. Let's not forget Jess, Joss's wife. They have helped make what they have built there is spectacular. There's no reason that people would spend and I mean thousands of people would spend the night in line or show up at 4 o' clock in the morning for something that sucked. And let me tell you, that place didn't suck, nor do their knives. They have so much stuff going on right now. And I'm gonna give you a little spoiler alert. They're working on. I don't know if I'm just gonna go ahead and release it now. They're working on a folding knife. Yep, that' right. I said it. I'm sorry, Josh, if I wasn't supposed to. My bad, Brandon. But it's coming. It's not here yet. What do they have? I'm looking at steak knives online right now. They do a blade drop on Thursdays and Saturdays. They have stuff that is completely in stock at all times. They have chef's knives, they have skinning knives. They have knives for cattlemen. They have apparel. It is crazy what they have built. And I'm looking forward to them outgrowing their facility that I think they thought was going to house them for years. And I'm going to give them about six months before they're expanding out of it. But vertically integrating, bringing almost the entire creation process underneath one route, bringing jobs back into America, bringing jobs into Montana, increasing The quality of life, the pay. For those people in the Montana, the western Missoula area, it's phenomenal. It is difficult to get one of their knives when they're the newer ones or their limited releases. So head over to montanaknifecompany.com, check out what they have to offer and just realize on those release dates, you need to act quickly on. Honestly, I recommend going on there and buying like a sticker or a patch so they have your information saved so you can action it as quickly as possible because otherwise you are going to be left behind and it sucks. This has happened to me many times. I had a knife taken out of my cart because I was manually putting in my credit card information. Don't be that guy. Learn from my mistakes. Montana knife Company. Trust me, you won't regret it. Back to the show.

[A]

So very.

[B]

You had a more aggressive path. Skinny petal on the right is more your style.

[A]

I would. I wasn't a dating guy because I was like, I had a lot of female friends, but I was kind of like. And they might even try to engage me kind of, you know, in some kind of an intimate way, like, hey, we should date or whatever and be like, no, we're just friends. I don't want to ruin the friendship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I learned later in life after the divorce what dating was about, you know, and I had to get the reps in. But to your point, it was, I guess, I don't know, I wouldn't even say old fashioned or traditional. I'd say probably archaic values of like, oh, yeah, introduced to woman. You know, commit to woman. Yeah. You know, and. And my first marriage, when I was, I don't know, 20 or 21 or 19 or something. I don't even remember. We're. We were married six months and she took off with her trainer and I never saw her again. Basically. You know, that's the short version of that one, but classic tale. But it broke my heart, you know, and as it does. And I had to do a public divorce on that one where, you know, I never saw her again. So she just walked from everything. And I literally had to do the exercise of filing and then you put it in the newspaper and all that stuff.

[B]

Oh. Because it was completely one. Sided.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

[B]

You know, those traditional values, I look back and, you know, people openly talk about. Yeah. But, you know, my parents had two different bedrooms or they had two twin beds in the room. I wonder the level of happiness. I mean, I think they were committed to the Idea of it and maybe the public facing nature of that.

[A]

But that was my parents.

[B]

Yeah, so what?

[A]

And they're very mean.

[B]

They're in twin beds. Like what?

[A]

My parents were great friends. They were great, you know, companions. They were together my whole life until my father died of cancer. My mom's, you know, up there at this point. But. But yeah. And they never modeled affection. You know, I wasn't raised with a lot of affection. I was raised in a great environment. But yeah, but didn't learn the reps on intimate conversation, contact, you know, warmth in those ways and you know, you probably. That's going to come out in this conversation. I'm a little bit robotic, but twisting this all into a positive, you know, back to my anniversary of, you know, meeting the woman of my dreams essentially. And she was also married 20 years, you know, but she had the blessing of marrying somebody she loved. And she's more of the example of like, you know, they loved, they had passion, you know, they also had a couple kids and daughters and they're amazing girls and. But then as, as it does in many cases, they grew apart. They didn't grow on the same line. And at some point and in my observation of, you know, multiple decades and looking for people to model my life after for, because that's what I do. I mean that's what the book's about really, you know, is like taking the best in class, observing people that exemplify some form of excellence. Whatever they do, they're doing it to a high standard. And so, you know, and I unfortunately have to joke often that it's like I can count on one hand the amount of marriages that I observe today that, that I admire or, or want to take, you know, useful attributes from, I guess. And so but in her, you know, and after my 20 year marriage, I was in a five year relationship. She was in a five year relationship. I learned a lot of things out of that relationship. Yeah, I have a young daughter from that relationship who's such a gift to my later life, you know, and her mother and I are like great friends and I'm super lucky and blessed that that's the case. And. But in this new relationship, not to turn into a relationship dialogue here, but we really have dedicated this year that we've been together to like showing up for our partner. Like, you know, after a lifetime of, you know, you could say, you know, a divorce is some. And, and you know, you, you talk about in your Draco conversation about like and a prior one, but about failing, you know, and I. You're not gonna fail. You're. You know, that's.

[B]

It was the only currency that I was measured by.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is such a dangerous approach because people say, no, you should never quit. I'm like, what if you're an alcoholic?

[A]

Right.

[B]

What if you're a drug addict? And they go, oh, well, yeah, in that situation, it totally makes sense to quit. I'm like, okay, man. There's other, like, that's a fringe example. There's other examples a little bit farther back from the ledge completely. Yeah.

[A]

No, I mean, and you raised such a. You know, I was just on Brent Tucker's podcast last Week and Tier 2 podcast.

[B]

It's not that big of a deal. Isn't that what he calls it, tier 2?

[A]

I can't comment, but I think he

[B]

wants to call it Tier 1, but I'm pretty sure that's Development group. Where did the tag is? Dude, those guys.

[A]

Applications Group, I think, is a little more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Applicable.

[B]

Those guys are killing it right now. And honestly, they're getting to do stuff, I think, more frequently just based off of kind of how the SEAL community has worked their way into a little bit of a corner. It's going to take them some time to get out of it. I'm not stoked to see it happen, but maybe a course correction is a little bit what is necessary. But I love this, guys. Obviously, I'm joking.

[A]

Well, I mean, the question there is why did they call the Navy the Warfare Development Group, but they call the army the Combat Applications Group?

[B]

I've heard so many different versions of that. Know of the why Its development group is supposed to confuse the Russians. That's where the six eventually came from. They're like, oh, we'll do two, four, and eight. I don't actually know if any of it is true. The developer.

[A]

It's all true.

[B]

It could be. The way it was explained to me was is that part of the actual charter is to develop equipment, tactics, techniques and procedures for the rest of the special operations community, which makes sense. Sense. I don't know if that's true either, to be honest. No idea. Yeah, let's. Both names are dumb.

[A]

Well, the frogman have been around a long time, so I know I've met

[B]

several that served in World War I, which is a lot longer than before they actually came around. Met a guy one time, he's like, I served in Seal Team 3 in Vietnam, and in my head I go, pretty sure those were commissioned in the 1980s. But yeah, you know, right answer. Have a great Day. Thank you for your service.

[A]

Special missions units, you know, maybe it

[B]

was a clandestine special missions units, the smbu,

[A]

there's plenty of those.

[B]

You know, I just let it go,

[A]

those assets out there. But back to the relationship thing, you know, the failure. You know, if, if you've come out of a marriage, you, you either you, you didn't choose the right partner or you didn't develop your, you know, relationship together the, the way that was going to be fruitful, more or less. I mean, it's just a fact.

[B]

You were a piece of.

[A]

Yeah. Or you're a piece of, you know, and I mean, or your combination of all the things, you know, but, but where, where everything should evolve to, right, is being better, being better, being better. And so if for me all posted those relationships, it was more or less a focus on reevaluating how do I show up better? You know, and one of the simple ones, you know, pieces I would push on to anybody. And these are the things I just push on to my, my brothers out there, whether in a marriage or they're single and seeking one, whether young, whether they're old, you know, something. You know, I dated a couple women and I felt like they, they needed or wanted things for me that I didn't want to give right. And, and those relationships were short. They were great women. And, and being somebody's maybe overly self reflective, you know, over time, maybe even over a year, I'd look back and I'd be like, you know, they were actually pretty good people, you know, and I wasn't, I didn't want to bend or I didn't want to evolve or change or just even be open to being something more. And so in reviewing that, I thought, you know what? I want to be with a woman who makes me want to be a better man. And that's a, that's a statement that's been out there a long time. But it didn't really land. And, and then it landed. And when it landed, I realized I have to choose a woman that I, when she wants something, I have to want to give it to her, I have to want to work for it, you know, and that's for me, that's been like a fundamental commitment to, to being the best partner I can be, even being the best dad I can be, being the best friend I can be. I started realizing the people I want to have in my life, if I want to have them in my life, I want to show up the best I can for them. And then I want to check in, I Want to engage. What do you need? And then I want to figure out some degree that I can show up for them in that way, you know, And I mean, you know, again, just because I listened to your, your conversation with Jocko from, you know, the other

[B]

day just quick turned in like 12

[A]

hours, blew me away.

[B]

At the end of the episode, we were off the air. I said, hey, just so I'm got. I'm going to try to get some stuff lined up before this come out comes out. Once it come, he goes, tonight.

[A]

I was like, what? Yeah.

[B]

You son of a bitch.

[A]

Yeah, super impressive. I mean, I guess that's at 500 and some podcast will do for you.

[B]

Let's be honest. Jocko didn't do it. Was Ekko. Well, Ekko is the man crushing the workflow behind the scenes.

[A]

Shout out to Ekko.

[B]

Yeah, he's the best.

[A]

He's the best workhorse.

[B]

But everything you just described, I wasn't capable of at 23.

[A]

No meaning not even remotely. I wasn't at 53 either, you know. Yeah. So I'm a few years past that, you know, and it's only really come to fruition for me probably in the last year and, and probably only because of this woman that, you know, has chose me and I've chosen her and, and, and she, you know, she runs some companies and she's, she's my equal in so many ways, you know, which I think strong men and alpha dudes need. We, you know, I know your wife is a beast and on the, on the map and, and in life and so. Oh, I forgot the shoes. I left the shoes in the truck. Oh, well, for you and your wife. I'll give them to you after the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, but you know, so through that and you know, let's say I'm not political in any way. I'm anti political. I mean like totally.

[B]

The government should not exist. How far are we going?

[A]

I'm not an anarchist. No.

[B]

Are you anarchist light?

[A]

Some might say we have to label

[B]

everything in the modern era. I don't know if you know this.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

God forb. You be a unique individual. You will fit into a box.

[A]

I will try to account for everything I say and feel free to challenge me on any of it. But you know, she.

[B]

You got to have sub government.

[A]

She and I come together through, through friends introducing us to, to work together on one of her, her tech startups and you know, she's kind of a self proclaimed radical feminist liberal, more or less and.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And you know, I grew up in Portland, Oregon. Grew up in a liberal city. To me, liberal meant live and let live. Right. It means, hey, you do your thing, I'll do my thing.

[B]

I think that's what it used to mean.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Talking to my father, who is 170 years old, he. I mean, yeah, he was born and raised in Santa Cruz, which is a bastion of liberalism in California.

[A]

Hippies for sure.

[B]

I mean, you see Santa Cruz, the Banana Slugs, I mean, just unique characters. It's a very live and let live. He'll be the first person to tell you he probably associates more with liberalism as he was growing up, but does not in any way, shape or form even recognize what the left or liberalism even means anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I think is true for a lot of people and on the right as well, too.

[A]

Yeah. Well, there's been just a lot of mind control, shall we say, and a lot of media control and a lot of narrative control and then slicing.

[B]

Who's controlling it, though?

[A]

I could tell you, but let's hear it.

[B]

Isn't Dame Bob.

[A]

Bob?

[B]

Yes, Bob, the guy throwing the levers. Why can't you tell me? If you know, how can you not tell us?

[A]

People call him Bob. Okay, Robert, you know, when you turn it backwards, it gets confusing for people.

[B]

It does. What do they call that? An ideogram?

[A]

Yeah, I think so. An idiot Graham.

[B]

Idiot Graham. Who's controlling everything. How dare you throw that out there and say you know and you can't tell me.

[A]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I didn't go into that in the book. But, you know, that's the next book. The follow on is going to be the. The strings that pull the puppets.

[B]

Do you actually think. Here's a question, we don't even have to define who it is and we've

[A]

already gone on to like seven topics enough.

[B]

I don't know. In the two hours we've been talking.

[A]

Ten minutes.

[B]

Is the system even controllable given the size, scope, scale and the population? That's what I wonder.

[A]

More totally, it is.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

100%.

[B]

And I think that requires optional buy in, though, from the people trying to be controlled. Really? How do people who want to disconnect from it get controlled then if they choose not to buy into the system, Man.

[A]

So, I mean, you know, one of those three letter agencies on the COVID of my book. Right. So I've spent time consulting with that organization. Organization Firesides. Yep, absolutely. And you know, and I've been really, again, blessed, you know, I'm going to use the word blessed a lot more than I'm going to use the word luck, because I'm a God guy. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to evangelize to you or anything like that.

[B]

But no, I completely appreciate and support people in all their.

[A]

No religion. I'm not a religious guy, but we can get into that later if you want. But I am a believer in a. In a higher power and a creator. And you know, that things happen for a reason. For sure.

[B]

It's an amazing belief. Fully support it.

[A]

And luck being like preparation, meeting, opportunity, you know. Big fan of that as well, because we're always, you know, that's where you come from. Your life is about preparation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then seeking opportunity, you know, so you're making your own luck. I mean, that's definitely nsw, kind of core. Core belief.

[B]

That and hair gel. Well, you know why we use the Silver Ranger compass, right?

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Because as soon as you crack it open, there's that mirror and you're just checking yourself out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's why the army guys go with the lens attic. They don't need that mirror, man.

[A]

Let me give me. I gotta get some notes here for the. My next equipment order, but because you

[B]

can navigate and fix your hair at the same time, you know, not sure that's why they issue it, but that's the resolution, man.

[A]

You gotta look good when they have to do the press afterwards.

[B]

Listen, it's not about how good you are, it's about how good you look.

[A]

Yeah. Can't argue that. It's good logic.

[B]

All right, so how are we controlled? We're never getting.

[A]

Well, I was just gonna say that, you know, I have done some briefings on my research and with leadership in that organization, and, you know, a lot of what the outcome of this book is is being in a lot of global culture shaping or business shaping or, you know, societal shaping influences, whether it's Kanye, whether it's the agency.

[B]

Are those two connected? Is Kanye an agency asset?

[A]

Not to his knowledge, 100%.

[B]

I don't know what is to his knowledge, if I'm being clear, judging him completely from the outside. We will get to your time working directly for Kanye, because I have questions.

[A]

Yeah, well, man, he might be the

[B]

most deeply undercover agent ever, because he's not even aware that he's an undercover. He's deep, deep undercover. Or he's fucking crazy.

[A]

That's the ultimate undercover, you know? Although that's what Manchurian candidates are about, right? Yeah.

[B]

So do you Think it's possible to survive in the system then absent that level of control? If the entire ecosystem is controlled, is it about how you interface with it? Could it, can you be outside of it? Or do you just have to figure out your way to navigate through the bs? I know it's a super broad question,

[A]

but you're talking system. I'm just talking control. Are we back to this core question of can the world be controlled?

[B]

Can I mean eight plus billion people, I mean that's, it's a lot.

[A]

Yeah, well if that's an accurate number,

[B]

you know, but 6 billion then 5

[A]

I mean, again, right, Alleged, but not to question, is it? Alleged, but. Well not by the powers that be. No, but you, you picked the number.

[B]

How big do you think the world

[A]

population, any of it works? Sure, sure. You know, once you get past a few billion. Right, it's, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

Is it possible to control individual people?

[A]

Well, here's why I would say it is because you can take any organization on the planet that's successful. You know, Apple's the most profitable in the world, right? It's multi.

[B]

I think Nvidia is now.

[A]

Yeah, I think you're right actually.

[B]

Which is directly leading to Apple products though.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I only know that because my, I was having an argument with my middle son where I was completely right and utterly convicted in my belief. I'm like Apple. He's just like, no, I'm like, you don't know shit. I'm older than you, I know everything more than you know. And he just pulled it up on his phone and I was like, yeah, I hate you and that device.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he crushed me. That's the only reason I know Nvidia has a higher. Yeah, it's not net worth. What do they call it? Valuation?

[A]

Market value.

[B]

Market value, yeah. I think they're the number one on earth right now.

[A]

Yeah. So. And you know that probably goes to like once you break the four minute mile, more people start breaking the four minute mile, you know. So Apple is the first to kind of break the trillion. Yeah, the trillion mark, which is kind of unimaginable.

[B]

A number I still don't understand.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Well, on the point I guess being of control and if you look at matrix models of, of systematized kind of plumbing diagrams, there is a point of influence that is decision making power within Apple, within Nvidia, within the US government, within the un, so on, so forth. So, and these are successful models, right? Apple is successful continuously because it has a plan. That plan is incubated in some room somewhere with a chairman, with a CEO, with you know, a trusted board of advisors. They spend as much time as they need planning their next three years, five years, 10 years.

[B]

How far out do you think they are planning?

[A]

I'd say 10, at least 10. Yeah, for sure. But, but there's also, you know, I'd worked at one point on a, on a proposal for Phil Knight, Nike founder, on a. Basically I called it the thousand year legacy plan because

[B]

take it easy Scientology.

[A]

We are getting all over the place because you know, current leadership, current leadership at Nike's doing a good job in bringing the ship back. You know, on course with some soul and purpose for what it was founded on. Previous leadership came out of, you know, commodity sales, big box, you know, jacking up this, the shareholder price value, you know, of the company and then you know, basically picking a little hanging fruit and then all of a sudden they've got a bear orchard and you know, everything tanks and so. So you know, I'd gone working with some of the, the kind of legacy leaders in the company, Tinker and and other kind of 40 year plus executives talking about, you know, is there a long term, 100 year, thousand year plans get crazy. You know, and Phil Knight being definitely a student of Japanese culture and you know, having been partnered with a Japanese company at the, at the beginning of Nike, I know he respects that culture. So I started researching thousand year old companies and there's, there's a number of thousand year old companies really in Nike, I'm sorry, in Japan.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And they fall under things like salt companies or paper companies. So things that have been around a thousand years. And again these aren't, these aren't models that we reflect on just in our day to day. We don't think in fact society again this is back to the control of society. Those families to be. To be a right on.

[B]

Sometimes Michael really swings and hits it out of the park.

[A]

You know, I like it. That's why.

[B]

Not that I ever let him know that he's done that. I said sometimes I didn't say. He just did.

[A]

I don't think he heard a thing that you just said. You know, he's got headphones on, Germany's got some. He's in the command and control seat. Well, to have a thousand year old family or sorry company there has to be some principles applied. One, you have to raise your family, kids to want to take over the company, you know, to carry on the legacy. So there has to be a mindset and that mindset comes from. This is the thread that goes back to the people that run the world. So you can check genealogy charts and find bloodlines that go back more than a thousand years. You know, there's people that believe that there's bloodlines that go back to Babylon, you know, 4,000 years. So now you know these are possible. Yeah, exactly. And so in order to be a bloodline that's going to be that old man. We're totally getting off topic here. For me, but there is no topic, okay?

[B]

We're in the matrix.

[A]

My friends are going to be like, man, you. You don't uncork Justin too much. He's.

[B]

What are you talking about?

[A]

These are 0 to 100 guys.

[B]

These are the best conversations ever.

[A]

Okay? So in order to have a company that's going to last a thousand years, you have to groom, if you will, your children. You have to have a number of children, because there's going to be one that rebels, doesn't want anything to do with it. There's going to be one that, you know, law of averages, you might even lose one. One might pass away, you know, and so in those days, they'd have five, six. You know, I'm just making it up here, but they have a number of kids with the hopes that one or two are going to want to carry it on. And then that mindset, there literally has to be a programming, if you will, of. In within that family of pride, and you could call it ego as well, but commitment, for sure, to carry this on like. And as time grows, as the time behind, the family's legacy grows, so does the weight, the responsibility of carrying it forward. And, you know, I grew up in a family business that was founded in 1905. So my great grandfather started a soft goods company. His son, my grandfather, took it over from him. My dad was a fighter pilot. When his dad passed away, in an untimely event, he left the military and came back and took over the business. And it was a small business, only 10, 12 employees. It wasn't big, but it provided income for the staff, the team. They made great products, gave me an opportunity to grow up learning a trade, a craft of sewing and printing presses and working leather, and all of that ended up benefiting me to getting into the world of innovation. But my dad never talked to me. You know, he did a great job. So I thought of saying, hey, I had to do these things. I was kind of forced to do these. I felt obligated. I don't want you to feel that obligation. So in 2000, you know, here I am, the rebel. There's a lot of things I do differently as through a lens that I have now of how the world works and how, how responsibilities can actually bear greater fruit if you use that legacy to grow something bigger as you look forward. You know, I left the business and, you know, I ended up at Nike doing innovation, you know, and which took me on a whole other journey that I've kind of come full circle back to appreciating. You know, I've owned nine houses in my life. I'm not a homeowner right now. You know, I, I didn't think there was a point in keeping houses and growing kind of a real estate investment and renting them. I know my dad kind of cut me loose and goes, hey, you should follow your dreams, you know, which we think is the, the ideal. But probably had I been raised to take over the company and grow the company and I probably would have a bigger nest egg. I would have more resources. But you can also argue, I mean, there's a chapter in my book about like entrepreneurs versus corporate, you know, modeling kind of a thing and, and either one, it's the grass is greener on the other side. Yeah.

[B]

Who knows if you would have been fulfilled by those things.

[A]

Yeah, you're totally right. And so, you know, again, back to a higher power with a plan for each of us potentially and breadcrumbing us into our, our true purpose. You know, probably if that was my true purpose, I would have been passionate about it, you know, and I followed my passion through my life sometimes into dead ends and, you know, off of cliffs, but that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Now we're getting the real, the real. But, you know, back to the legacy.

[B]

You are sitting across the table though. You rebuild your STU from all those absolute train wrecks big time. Yeah. I've tried to plow my way through Culdesax where I should have just backed out and did a three point turn and it was a nightmare. And you look, you're like, wow, I've really done everything completely wrong. Yeah, nobody's going to get me out of this. Starting over at square one. Sweet. I'm in my 30s. This is great.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Thinking you know it all and you look back from your 40s and you're like, man, I did not know at all. Some, at some point I'm there now. Like I don't know. And yeah. And if I think I've got it figured out, I know I'm Wrong. And I know these are cliches that we've heard our entire lives from those that came correct, though. But when they land on us and then that we own those phrases and we have. We have our own experiences to really fortify them. And then we find ourselves passing them along to those behind us then. And we're trying to frame it into like, how do I get this message across? Because it didn't land on me. I remember hearing it, but it just didn't make sense to me.

[B]

But Justin, how do we not get controlled by the evil powers that are marionette dulling the world?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

What's the recipe? Can we detach? Is there a way for people to. I always forget this one. I know people talk about the red pill and the blue pill in the Matrix, which was the one that's supposed to wake you up.

[A]

The red pill.

[B]

The red pill. Okay. I can. I understand and hear a lot of like the social vernacular and oftentimes I'll repeat it if I'm being honest. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just trying to make my way in a conversation. So the red pill.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do we red pill ourselves? And I also feel like that term has got a really negative connotation that's somehow tied to the right wing politics. And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about just like not being a battery.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We'll go. Full matrix is in the movie.

[A]

I like it, man. You are. I appreciate you. Well, I think society is being red pilled right now with the Epstein files and.

[B]

What are you talking about? They're all out there. We figured everything out and we're. We've prosecuted a substantial amount of people.

[A]

Yeah. We have the tech to get food delivered in 15 minutes. But we all have horror stories about buying tickets. The Game Time app gives fans the advantage and get amazing tickets in just a few taps.

[B]

Fees are included.

[A]

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[B]

Oh, no. That was as heavy as I can lay sarcasm on.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm completely and utterly.

[A]

I'm a little bit on the spectrum, so sometimes I miss sarcasm and social C. Say, are you touched by.

[B]

Did you get grazed by the tism bullet like a flesh wound?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

All right. Or Is it national defense level? We'll see later on in the conversation. Yeah, the Epine files is an interesting one. I think people got to be cautious though too. I was having this conversation on the last podcast briefly. A lot of those are investigative documents as opposed to like finalized investigations. And people can go and say anything they want to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

[A]

Yeah, it's not documented. It's a.

[B]

It's a report of what people are saying.

[A]

It's an email database or it's a, you know, there are documents, but not. Again, that doesn't mean it's a conclusive.

[B]

Well, it's also sometimes people just talking to somebody who wants to report something without actually taking the additional step of actually verifying what they're saying is true. And some of that I think is lost on people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I also think there's a whole bunch of stuff in there that shows that powerful people want to stay powerful, that very rich people get into some really weird kinky shit on the front. Some not. All right. I can't speak for everybody more than people realized. I think so. And I think that again, I don't.

[A]

In positions more than people realized.

[B]

Maybe. I also think some of that might be associated with though, if you get to a place where you have almost unlimited power or economic ability to have whatever you want to. I think you keep pushing the boundaries on that for some people. Right. I can have. I can have anything. But so now you know what I mean? So it doesn't. And again, I'm not trying to say all people are like that, but it seems like there might be some level of correlation. What's fascinating to me is watching other countries. People are stepping down. People are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Prince Andrew getting arrested was my favorite. Just the picture we pulled that up in that show of him sitting in the back of the cop car.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

His ex wife leaving the country, checking into rehab. That's about 17 grand a day. But in this country, I don't know if anything is going to be. Is going to be done about it. And I don't know what that means. I don't know if that means the entire system is broken and needs to be burned to the ground or are people so bombarded that they don't even know what to care about anymore?

[A]

Well, you've scratched the surface on a number of deep, deep topics.

[B]

They're all simple one pagers.

[A]

You know, who runs the earth? How do we not get influenced or, you know, controlled by evil?

[B]

Let me ask you, this is the Earth. Round or flat?

[A]

We got no idea.

[B]

Yes, you do. You're telling me you're not sure.

[A]

I'm not political and I don't get involved in things I can't verify myself. I don't, I don't have a conclusive position.

[B]

Verify whether or not the earth is flat or not. Justin, we're never leaving this topic until we get to the bottom of this issue. What would it take for you to be convinced?

[A]

This is supposed to be a calling card for future opportunities.

[B]

That'll be the third.

[A]

And you're, you're painting me this corner of like, I don't know if I could work with that guy. He doesn't have definitive beliefs on certain things that institutions have spent a lot of money and time fortifying so that most of society will accept them as truths.

[B]

Sometimes it is true, though.

[A]

Sometimes it is.

[B]

And just because you spend a lot of money on it doesn't mean it necessarily mean it's manipulative or false. I, I have deep held beliefs that I loosely hold on to. So I'm totally fine with people not having that level of conviction or uncertainty. And my favorite answer to things in this phase of life is I don't know. Yeah, well, but I do know the,

[A]

the word and I say that when you asked me the question and no,

[B]

you said you're not sure.

[A]

Oh, okay. I don't know. Let me, let me recap.

[B]

What would it take for you to be convinced that the Earth is round?

[A]

What would you need to see round or flat? I don't know.

[B]

What would the benefit?

[A]

Well, I suppose I would have to have an aperture out that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That gives me a view. Like I, I can't.

[B]

Like there's a lot of space station.

[A]

Yeah, I suppose. Yeah. There's a lot of things. I mean, I see merits and arguments from both sides.

[B]

Even on the flat Earth side, I

[A]

see, I see merit. Meritus. You know, arguments. Yes. And not, not. There's things that I can't refute on either side. There are, are, there are statements.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here's where, here's where I come back to being a problem solver and why, you know, DARPA or the agency or JSOC or whatever takes my call and lets me come sit at the table because one of my operating systems for approaching a, Call it a confusing topic, call it a, you know, a combative discussion. Is truth. An absolute truth, an irrefutable truth is generally going to be explainable and consistently explainable without things that are associated to it that don't make sense. And what I mean by that is if, if. If the situation or the scenario or the. Or the. The problem at hand has something associated to it that doesn't make sense and it can't be answered with, with the other list of truths, there should not be an outstanding unexplainable part to it. And so, you know, I think the

[B]

problem with that, though, is what you just described is a system that will not let you believe in anything because we're limited by our own knowledge and understanding as human beings. And so there's always going to be things that we're not smart enough or evolved enough to understand. Like, if you push it far enough, you're always going to find that, well,

[A]

okay, I can accept that, I guess. PI. Take PI, for example. 3.14.

[B]

I thought you were talking about pecan.

[A]

I do love me.

[B]

I'd be like, hold on, what type slice or the entire thing? That's the only question to ask yourself.

[A]

Shout out to my brother, George Corbo. We, everywhere we are in the world, we get pie. We find. We find a pie shot.

[B]

You're talking about the weird mathematical symbol.

[A]

Yeah, gotcha. So, you know, you can run that number really far, really far. But we've agreed that 3.14 is sufficient. And so, yeah, take that. That there is a reference for me of like, I just need to check a few boxes. But I'm not trying, you know, because I'm not trying to be an antagonist. I'm not trying to break everything, you know, because if. Then you're a problem to work with, nobody wants to work with you. You know, I am seeking conclusions, I'm seeking results, I'm seeking solutions. But there's a long list of things, you know, whether, you know, you can basically say that every conspiracy theory has. Has. I'm not gonna even say a grain of truth. I'm gonna say has the best ones

[B]

have the Most true and 2%, like BS.

[A]

Yeah, it has a substantial amount of truth to it. And so then with that example, you split. You split the group on people that believe that or don't believe it it. And the people that believe it are holding on to the truth or the questions that can't be explained. And the people that don't want to believe the conspiracy are holding on to the answers that address those questions but aren't sufficient for the other side. You know, so a real truth, an absolute truth, is something we can both agree on. And, you know, and again, as a, as a faith guy, I believe there's like hey, because society's huge right now and my truth, your truth and you

[B]

know, and what is truth?

[A]

Brent and I got into this as well. True. And. Yeah, well, there is truth. I mean there's just. If you believe in a creator, there's a God's truth. You know, there's a. If God or an architect created all this, that being knows everything and, and observes everything. So is even a system though too.

[B]

Aren't there things that you're. What you were describing the system that you created where there's things that, that are not understandable or understood. Religion is in the same way as well and they bridge the gap with faith.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Which I'm not against one thing, religion

[A]

is a man made construct. The only thing that religion is referenced to in the Bible is Jesus saying if you have religion, let your religion be being of service to women and orphans. And, and that's the only phrase in the Bible. Man, I'm going to get raked over this for making some kind of thing.

[B]

I feel like he might have said more theological statement. It was written down that he said more because it's really tough to know exactly what the guy said.

[A]

Okay, you see. Well, you know, I'm not going to debate that because it's tough.

[B]

I mean, was the Bible written in real time as somebody was walking around with the papyrus notebook?

[A]

Expansive time, you're right. Yeah. And yeah, there's, you know, I'm not here to debate the Bible on any stretch. But religion conspiracies though. Yeah.

[B]

There's another.

[A]

We're just all over the place.

[B]

Well, we have to go back because I think there's another group that is often not brought into that conversation and that is the group of people that need a community because they feel lost.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And sometimes I don't actually think they deeply believe. Maybe at a surface level, but maybe haven't even done a deep level of research. They're just incredibly thankful that they're with a community of people that believe the same things. And I'm okay with that. It can get a little bit dangerous. Right. If you're, if whatever belief you may have is like is harming yourself or other people. I'm not advising that but, but I do think an aspect of that, especially in the world that we live in, where we're supposed to be so connected by our anxiety rectangles, that community and the shared belief and the feeling of being a part of something, it matters a lot to people and it should.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's often discounted.

[A]

I Mean, we're so. I'm going to bring this back. I'm going to come to this. What you're just saying. Because I totally agree with you. You know, I mean, again, credit to you. You do an incredible job of moderating and mediating on the round earth. Very complex.

[B]

On the round earth is where I do that. Who would benefit from the earth being flat? Because I also ask myself this question.

[A]

It neither affects me one way or the other.

[B]

I know. But I have to know the answer to these things because I look at it from these angles, too, especially in conspiracies. What would the benefit be? Who would be benefiting? What's going on on the other side of the disc? Why haven't I been invited?

[A]

A lot of people under that as well. Yeah. You know, for themselves. I have to come up with a new term. Like, you know, if I go either way, does that mean I'm by. By earth, you know, kind of thing? I would accept that term. Okay. Thank you.

[B]

I think you'd be accepted.

[A]

The jury's still out on that. So I can serve either community with fervor. Fair enough. So. And that, you know, that's my job. Right. I'm. I want to be in the middle of the. As long as someone's seeking truth. If you're seeking truth, I'm. I'm on board because I'm seeking truth on all. There's not a topic that I'm not informed on, and there's not a topic. You can go as far out of bounds as you want. And I can tell you, you could probably name some things that you would find you laugh at. But I know teams that are from your former community that are investigating or engaged in those investigations in. In things that I bet. I'm not going to say the words on. But you, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whether they're covered in hair or whether they're, you know, some kind of ultra tech that people call, you know, a tip or UFOs or whatever you want.

[B]

Yep. God, I want them to be real.

[A]

Well, they're real. They're all. They're all real. They're 100 real.

[B]

I don't think we can ever use the term all. Always and never are two very dangerous terms.

[A]

Well, I don't mean because real. They are all real. You know. Now, not every report, but what I'm saying is something in the category of each one of those narratives.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

Is real. And. But what. What's behind it, you know, whether it's ours, whether it's theirs, whether it's from here. Whether it's, I mean, you know, if you watched all those congressional hearings and senatorial hearings, they're acknowledging that interdimensional that

[B]

they have the ability to travel through space and time. But they seem to crash a lot on Earth.

[A]

Hey, nothing's perfect, right?

[B]

Well, I mean, it's like we're idiots, I think, I swear we're probably just ants to them. They're like, oh, ants with nuclear weapons, we're out of here. Well, they can pass through space and time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then they crash a lot.

[A]

Well, and so we're going, we're talking true a lot. Might be, might be they crash more

[B]

than I would expect them to if they can travel the vast.

[A]

I mean, F1 cars crash, right? I mean, yeah, but that's ants driving that.

[B]

Well, we're not traveling through actually like space and time or folding time or any of the like the four dimensional stuff.

[A]

Fighters crash. Yeah, F1 and those are, you know, spacecraft, you know, NASA craft crash. Yeah, those are three of the highest performing humans on Earth. They're the most humans.

[B]

Now we're talking about people who aren't

[A]

human ants in your vernacular on this model.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Okay, maybe.

[B]

I think from an evolution perspective, that's how an advanced race may look at us.

[A]

So you could just apply that. They crash meaning everything is failable. Everything can be.

[B]

Why so much here though?

[A]

Let's go predator. If it bleeds, we can kill it. Nothing is beyond, you know, good documentary, the reach. You're not wrong. But when we talk about conspiracies, narratives, truths, you mentioned evil, you mentioned control of the world. I mean it all does come back full circle to, you know, we live in a natural world and we are awash in the supernatural. And so for people that are grounded in a non faith, I never use the word religion. I'm not religious. Just to be clear on the record. I don't, I don't go to a building and I don't have a name for the faith other than Christ. You know, I believe in Jesus.

[B]

That's kind of the way I know a lot of people. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say I know a lot of people. Yeah, I have known some people who think that the amount of time and attendance spent at a building is going to unwind all the horrendous shit that they're doing in their life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which again from somebody who I've said this many times, maybe faith just hasn't landed with me yet. I'M super envious of the people that have that level of faith.

[A]

You're not alone.

[B]

Yeah. And it's interesting to me to watch those who often will portray themselves as being the most devout. It's like, dude, I, I, I also see you when you're not going to church and you, from my understanding of what's going on in there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's very two distinct paths that are being walked and they're not parallel.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, the world's full of Sunday Christians that show up and do their thing in church and then go back to the secular kind of debauchery of the, of the week, so to speak, you know.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think it should be tied to a structure or a time. I like the way that you describe it.

[A]

Thank you. And so, and, and part of my journey, I mean, I always been a spiritual guy, you know, crypto martial arts, travel the world, training martial arts, Tai

[B]

chi, what are we talking? I mean, jitsu.

[A]

I got a black belt in taekwondo.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

As a young man and.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[A]

You know, I mean, I've been doing martial arts for 40 plus years, 45 years, but, and you know, because I'm a pursuer of highest excellence wherever I can, you know, for myself, not to, to be on pedestals in the world for, you know, podiums or magazine covers or anything like that. You know, I always call myself the best number two guy in the world, you know, like, I find the best number ones just like, you know, yourself and Michael's your backup. You know, he's, he might be the

[B]

number one, if we're being honest.

[A]

He's controlling, you know, back there, but command and control. But, you know, so, I mean, I've had the, the grace to be able to train with like, Bruce Lee's last living students, you know, like Ted Wong and Taki Kimura and all that.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

My Nike channels and, you know, with, with amazing people. And I studied Bruce Lee growing up, you know, deeply, because when I was a cyclist, I, I studied Lance and, you know, I ended up working with Lance and the team through Nike, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I grew up as a martial artist, I studied Bruce, you know, Lee, and then I found myself through Nike means, you know, being able to put together a project to go and work with the last living guys when they were in their 70s and just spend hours and ask all the questions. And so, you know, I've been graced with a lot of access over the last three decades, four decades, and no college degree. You Know, like yourself. Yep. And. But neither did Zuckerberg or most of the guys that are running the world's biggest companies, you know, that we weren't institutionally programmed, shall we say, you know, so we made our. If we were successful, it was mentors, it was hard work, it was diligence and perseverance and suffering and all the things. But, you know, so backed with, you know, the martial arts side and, and the faith thing, you know, I always was spiritual. I studied all the Eastern philosophies because here I am traveling to Asia and training, and I was grounded in Zen and Buddhism and, you know, Taoism, which is the way of nature and the universe. And, And I could debate for decades. I'd sit at tables with Bible believers, you know, and I would dissect most of them, you know, pretty handily because I'm a good debater and, you know, and I try to understand my subjects deeply.

[B]

Did you enjoy crushing them?

[A]

No, I don't want to crush anyone. I. My mission, I mean, is not to crush my mission.

[B]

Doesn't sound like it.

[A]

You know, let me jump on another

[B]

point of the debate.

[A]

You know, that, that I gotta stop for a second on that. The debate. You're talking about competition a little bit. It's a, It's a competitive nature.

[B]

I mean, debate is a competition, right? You're it. Hopefully. Well, in a pristine world, it would be a debate of ideas.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. You're right. And. And hopefully the goal is to illuminate the best idea, you know, which is the word dissect. Yeah, well, I dissected it at the time because I wanted to show all the cracks for as what I believed were cracks. I. And again, when you can. This works in, in every model, right. If. If you're on a JSOC team, you know, the number one asset you can find is the one of your enemies that turns. And now you get a total intel package from your enemy, basically, that is like. That is the biggest treasure trove, you know, that's why you gather all the tools when you clean a scene, basically, and you leave, you're trying to basically investigate your enemy to be able to dissect them so that you can pick their vulnerabilities. All that, you know, it's, it's. I think anyone that's at the highest level of performance is doing that in everything because it's either fortifying their center of excellence. It is fortifying their center of excellence. You want to. You want to fortify your position, whatever it is, without Being rigid and you want to be able to, you know, dissect or you know, dismantle someone else's position, say win.

[B]

Okay, you're talking around the most important and operative word, win. It's all right. Well, we've all been in that phase.

[A]

Something bringing it back to you. Something that you, you one of the most, you know, because I was again lucky enough to work in the JSOC community, you know, at a deep level, and that gave me a first hand deep experience for years on. Anyone that arrives at the JSOC level is the highest, pretty much the highest performing human on the earth.

[B]

Basically, we're monkeys with machine guns.

[A]

No, you're not. No, you're, you're.

[B]

I could give you a list of names. Mine would be at the top, of course, but I was going to say you became utterly terrified once your eyes were open. You're like, oh my God, this is the best we have.

[A]

I mean, I, I totally, I totally appreciate the humility and the brevity, the levity, but no, I mean the guys in your community at that level, which are the 1% of the 1%, they can get stuff done for sure and, and so haven't spent a lot of time in that world and trying to, you know, my, my job again is if I'm going to solve problems, you know, whether that's through a product of equipment, you know, biomedical, medical solution technology, you know, I've touched in all these worlds, I've worked in all the industries across the decades and the templates of solving problems are the same. You know, you just insert different ingredients. The ingredients might be medical, it might be technological, it might be human. Yeah.

[B]

Based on the ecosystem. Right, Whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No tranche. You happen to be working in totally.

[A]

And you know, tier one guys and women of which there are less, but there are, they are in there. You guys get, you get sent to learn things that people wouldn't believe, you know, because it may be mission specific, but the, the range of what you're getting as a kind of a foundation, you know, is unparalleled. And the only way you can do that is to have a, a mind that is adaptive, that is high speed learner, high speed application, you know, all the things. And then you're in a physical package that's super durable, super enduring, strong enough, fast enough, all the things. Right. So, you know, again, as an outsider, not, not an assaulter, you know, not even really a support guy. You know, I was an anomaly in that world because I got to work with, you know, the 24 and a little bit of dev and mostly CAG, but then also in a little bit of agency stuff, you know, and, and so, you know, while I'm a decent athlete and a decent performer and, you know, tried to hold myself to the same standard, so I'd never be the weakest guy, you know, I basically had to always have a no shit assessment of like, what, what. What are you guys really made of? What are you guys really capable of? And, and it's unparalleled. And. But you and, and Glover had a conversation. It was probably early on when you started this, but you, you made a statement about. And you probably read On Combat, On Combat, On Killing, you know, the books, you know, which are amazing, you know, psychologically for kind of understanding the largely

[B]

made up and based off of incorrect information. But yeah.

[A]

Wow. Okay. Well, that's good. Good to hear. I'll have to hear more about that later. You can.

[B]

So one of the, just, I mean, briefly, one of the things that he leverages on a lot and On Killing is SLA Marshall's research, which has been overwhelmingly proven to be not accurate or not conducted in the first place.

[A]

See, I'm getting informed right now. Yeah. High speed learning.

[B]

He. It was physically impossible for him to have interviewed the number of people that he claimed that he has in the places that he did at the times that he said that he did. There were liberties, huge, vast liberties taken.

[A]

There you go. Yeah, well, and I mean, that definitely starts to discredit things. So, you know, I know I have

[B]

no intent to discredit.

[A]

It was required reading there for a while in the community. And so it was.

[B]

I don't think it is anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To be honest with you, I'm not saying it's one.

[A]

It was, it was a dated, you

[B]

know, I'm not saying it's a bad book study, but yeah, I've actually interviewed him in his house and he started pulling out hand drawn stat charts which were incomplete and showing very narrow windows of time. And I can extrapolate an XY scale as well and push it and tighten it and do all sorts of things that I want to. And then when it's hand drawn, I've

[A]

got questions how you shape data. You know, data is not correct. Data is not truth. Yeah, just like the Epstein files. To your point, there is truths. Yeah, but it's not conclusive. It's a data package. Well, and, and so you had made a. You. And I think it was one of you and Mike's first deep conversations, you know, like, and you. You made a statement that I basically sent out to everybody that I work with that's. That works in the community. Who's. Who's not. Who's not a DA guy, you know, he's not an assaulter shirt. And you. You basically. You guys had a really serious moment where you were like, you know, when I was out there doing the job, you know, I took it as like, I'm, I'm. I'm against an opponent and I'm here to win. Yep. You know, so when you're telling me a win earlier, that's. It takes me back to this. And it was really. Because I'm always looking for that grand. That grain. That, that, that, that. That. What is the thing. What is the thing that makes you guys who you are? What is the thing that. That again, separates the best, you know, the best in history? It's the desire to win at all costs. And, and you were basically. I don't know if you use the words, but you think you basically, it was the ultimate competition.

[B]

It is. If you can find somebody that is willing to put their life on the line and fight for it and put their toes on the line against you. And it's. Again, this is not a. My belief is better than your belief. And whoever wins, that's the correct belief. I'm talking about the mentality of the person willing to fight and die for their belief. And then you bang it out and you're still the one there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no feeling in the world that feels better than that.

[A]

Yeah, well. And I mean, when you framed it and presented it, it was like. Because I'm always seeking what I would call the highest truth, like an irrefutable truth. Because every one of those, like a round Earth, you could say that.

[B]

Okay,

[A]

man, sucker punch. Because if I catalog a number of these in different categories wherever I go, whether it's talking about beliefs or it's talking about industries or it's talking about success models, I try to have a satchel with me of irrefutable truths, because any, Any. Any subject that I can present an irrefutable truth on, on one side or the other one, it shows that I can view a subject from both sides, or there is one ultimate kind of conclusive framing that puts it on something that nothing else can compare. I mean, big wave surfing, it's. There's not a lot of sports where they're very. Your life is on the line, you know. You know, bear hunting. You could probably put that in there, you know, that's an activity though.

[B]

I mean like you're talking about like an athletic competition.

[A]

Well, I'm just talk. It's competition. Right. You're there to win. Winning is taking home that prize and not getting killed if. Depending how you do it. Yeah, but, and I mean, again, people can debate the topic that I'm bringing forth here. Bringing it back to your point though. And I mean, here's.

[B]

Nobody sets out to fail.

[A]

Well, no, but actually maybe some people do.

[B]

That'd be weird.

[A]

But when you framed it that way, it's so soberingly clear that no one talks about it in that way and no one thinks about it in that way. And so, you know, the dozen people that I rely on for problem solving, whether they're designers or they're developers or guys not doing the job, that we are always looking for that edge to understand deeper and take the responsibility upon ourselves to make sure that when guys like you doing the job at the time are stepping off the bird, you're going to come back and you're going to get the job done. And the goal is always about how do we equip you with. You know, you're always looking for, I mean, really, you're looking for a 1% advantage. But yeah, you know, in the product sales world or the business world, it's usually got to be a minimum of a 20 improvement or 80 improvement or whatever, you know, but in the life and death world, it's always about 1%. Give me 1% or a tenth of a second. Yeah, yeah. Or an ounce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we're a little bit of

[B]

stretch here, a little bit more mobility, a range of movement here. Yeah, it's not, not I need 80% more. It's like 1% might make the difference.

[A]

Yeah. And so, you know, I sent that podcast to everybody in my circle and I. And because there was some other very. Where you went with that and, and the level that got you guys to that kind of truth, you know, it was, it was definitely deep and it was impactful and you know, and I appreciated it because it gave me a perspective that still sits with me so that I know when I sign on to work on some problem set and I look at it from that standpoint, I think of that reference that you, you made because it also because, you know, like, I'm working on a Nike innovation project right now, kind of an over the horizon thing with a, a group called Motive Labs. This guy, Mark Roser founded this small lab out of the east coast. And you know, we're Doing dog booties for a JSOC unit right now.

[B]

And do they come in many dachshund size?

[A]

I'll get you some.

[B]

I would appreciate. Well, I would custom some but Javelin who is my 11 pound asshole dog.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Pissed on our couch yesterday.

[A]

He's just letting you know that he missed you while you were in San Diego, that's all.

[B]

At least it was on the side. Easier to clean.

[A]

I suppose so you know, he knew to where the boundaries were but you

[B]

know, booties for sure.

[A]

You know and, and on that project, I mean, you know, working with the Michael Jordan of sled dogging, you know and you know again you're going to work, you're going to deliver for the best. You got to bring in the best. It's like it should be a center of excellence all the time. But you know, back to where I'm, where I would, I would take those stories and when you brought it into the Most Dangerous Game, you know, I think it's a book title but it's like you're talking about, it's competition, you know, and only one, one of us is going to go home, you know, because if I don't perform at the highest level, I'm going to lose. And losing means I don't go home or I go home in parts or I go home not whole, which you've experienced as well. So that, that perspective of, of only you can articulate that as an end user in that space. I can't. I could, I could theoretically say that but. So I, I, I, I'm seeking those nuggets and those grains of truth everywhere I go. And I'm so grateful when guys like you share them and you, and you're either vulnerable enough or confident enough or bold enough to say something so shocking to someone who doesn't get it right. Like it's, it's a bit, it's a bit overwhelming to someone who goes, wow. So then I go back to, you know, I'm in Nike and you know, another example paralleling that to your point about the stakes, shall we say. And I had had a, a Delta guy. A Delta guy I think was coming and working with us on something and I'd try to never be the gatekeeper in any situation. Once, once I'm in with somebody, it's like I just, I don't. There's a lot of people that try to handle assets and try to be always in every meeting.

[B]

Yeah, they want to be the guy.

[A]

Yep. They want to be the, the controller more or less. And My whole thing is like, well, we know each other. Let me introduce. Yeah, take him and do whatever you want, you know, have whatever conversation you want. He's a big boy. You're a big boy. Do your thing, you know, let me know I can help. That also just always frees me up. I don't have to be attached to everything. And you know, in the instrument. And so he had been out for a day or two. You know, he'd met the Nike founder and anytime anybody from the unit came out, I always made sure they 1. I wanted Nike to keep up leveling their understanding and their kind of sobering of their contributions in that community to like, how do we get them better gear and think. A lot of things never went retail, but we did a lot of stuff. You know, we did, we did a combat uniform, we did a boot, we did a sock, we did, did packs, we did a sideline jacket that for guys sitting on a Hilo, going to target where it's there at altitude and it's cold and pull the thing off and you know, you got all your kid on the X, you know, does that stuff.

[B]

Even though a lot of that stuff doesn't make it to market. Did the technological, I don't want to call them advances, but we'll say the learnings. The learnings, they kind of creep in civilian wide, right? And honest, it's probably invisible to most people. And maybe it's a small influence on a civilian product, but I feel like it helps totally 100%.

[A]

I mean, that was that again. That was why in order for that, that project to have legs and to grow and have, have a future in the company, which the boot that we did is still going strong inside the company. And you know, that was my, my baby for five years. You know, it was just an incredible experience for me in the building to be able to be out, totally out of bounds all the time, no budget constraints, could go anywhere, do anything. And then the only goal, the only job I had was if I'm meeting with you guys at damn neck or wherever, you know, and you asked me for something, I damn well better show up with it. And, and either ahead of time and better than you asked for, you know, and so as long as I did that every time, it just deepened the trust, the relationship. And so when guys would come out for the unit or anywhere, I would make sure I plug them in because it's it. I get to win in two ways. The guys feel like they get to learn in those environments where they don't Typically get access. So they're getting a ton of exposure to the inner workings of the framework of one of the biggest companies in

[B]

the world, which, by the way, is a foreign concept to people coming from that military ecosystem.

[A]

Yeah, I saw it all the time. But you know, again, part of my job as your amazing mediator is like going, hey man, you're a high speed problem solver. You're highly adaptive. You know, you're a learning machine. Here's how your things translate, you know, and, and oh, and then you just show them the relatability of it. I'm, I'm always intermediating. I'm a diplomat essentially between these worlds, all the worlds, the industries, you know, and that's, that's where I've arrived in my mid-50s of like being this translator of. It's all the same problems are all the same, you know, they just have different things that are being input into them. You know, human factors, technology factors, equipment factors, soft good factors, nutrition factors, whatever it is. Science, wet sciences, dry sciences, you know, mechanics. So anyway, I, I take this off, you know, there. I knew Kobe was in the building at the time because one of my good friends, Eric Avar, was his designer for his entire career, essentially, much as Tinker Hatfield was Jordan's designer for the first 20 years.

[B]

And so great documentary, by the way, on Jordan.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I just watched it recently. I don't know why. I was just like, this isn't gonna be a good movie. Fantastic movie.

[A]

Yeah, well, and there's another one on Netflix called the Design series on Netflix. And tinker, there's a 30 or 40 minute one on Tinker that's fantastic.

[B]

It's like Phil Knight, that crazy walking

[A]

around in spandex and no horrible depiction.

[B]

And it was a purple. But I'm like, okay, go back. You got to go back to the time period. Purple was actually the jam at that point. Very neon.

[A]

I think he did have a purple tracksuit. And you know, I think. Yeah, I think that might have. Accurate. With the Oakley glasses on. He was. And I think that's. That. That shows Phil's sense of humor, like being okay with them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Poking at him that way.

[B]

Ben Affleck did a good job. It was a Ben Affleck Mac Damon movie. It was fantastic.

[A]

You know, there's a former historian, retired Nike historian, Scott Reams. You can follow him on LinkedIn. And he constantly is posting corrections which are incredibly insightful and valuable. And you know, we can go down a ton of stories that this, the real story around that, that period, that movie Air. If they would have told. If they would have told a different. More. Instead of telling the first two Jordans and, And signing Jordan, what they should have told is a story of when Jordan got kept at Nike thanks to Tinker becoming his new designer and Jordan, basically, because Peter and I'm. I'm drawing a blank on his name. They were trying to woo him away from the company. So where. That. The story leading up to where the movie is. Jordan had been there for two shoes and two years and they were going to resign him. And the, the guys that were in the meeting that Jason Bateman plays.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the other designer. After that. Oh. Because that. That's actually. Yeah. That the movie is. When they signed.

[B]

Initially signed him initially. They were trying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They were competing with. With Audi. I swear it was Vans too. Even though it doesn't sound right. It might have been.

[A]

It was Reebok or something.

[B]

It was like a skateboarding shoe.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Definitely.

[B]

Something he wouldn't play ball in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But yeah, yeah, that. That movie was how they originally landed him.

[A]

Yeah, I'm, I'm. I haven't accessed those files in my head for a while. So. Yeah. The more interesting story is following those first two years after they signed him, those two individuals were going to take him away from Nike and build his own company, the Jordan, you know, company, basically. And it came because Bateman's character's name basically went to Phil and was like, I want to be president of Nike. And Phil was like, I'm president of Nike. And he didn't like that. And so he decided.

[B]

It's a bold declaration as well. He's tough to walk back from that one.

[A]

You know, he's gonna leave and he's gonna take their. He's gonna take Jordan and they're gonna build a whole company around him. So they spent six months doing that, wooing him and envisioning what the future is going to look like. And when they left, they basically just threw sketches on Tinker's desk, you know, who was kind of young designer at the time, and said, here, good luck with this. And Tinker looks through this pile of sketches because it was Nike proprietary work. And he was like, yeah, it's all crap. But he pulled up the Jumpman, you know, which was traced from, you know,

[B]

which they ended that movie with, talking about how that was just the iconic image that moved forward.

[A]

Yep. And. And it was Tinker basically looking at that and go, there's something there. He put that aside and he ends up designing the Jordan 3. And at the meeting, just the short version is Jordan shows up in Newport. Phil and Tinker are there. He shows up late being disrespectful, because in his mind, I'm gonna go, these guys are building a company on me.

[B]

Oh, he had already kind of like, mentally.

[A]

Mentally, I'm out. I'm not resigning with Nike. You know, his parents are there. They're totally disappointed in their rudeness of their son. He shows up, he's sitting back. You know, he's. Puts his feet on the table. Just pompous kid. You know, power move. And basically Tinker blew him away with the Jordan 3, and they resigned him in. And the whole lead up around that and the key, the retaining of Jordan to. And what became their relationship. I mean, it's actually a much more interesting story than that one, but they chose that one.

[B]

So I won't. I won't spoil the ending, but it talks about the potential residual revenue he makes per year. Good call, Mr. Jordan for sticking around.

[A]

I think he's done well.

[B]

You're not eating ramen.

[A]

Right. So again, we got sidetracked. But back to Kobe. Being in the building, you know, rest in peace.

[B]

Horrible aviation accident, by the way, that I paid less attention to until I started flying helicopters and then kind of dug into what happened there. Complete and utter human error. And a fully functioning helicopter.

[A]

Yeah, well, and I mean, again, strange coincidence. I was in a warehouse in the sight line of the crash.

[B]

No way.

[A]

When I was working for Kanye in Calabasas. And so. So I could see the crash site, but we weren't in the building when it happened. It was fogged over, all that. And. And it was. I think it was on a weekend or something when we weren't there, but total human error. Yeah. Super unfortunate as many. Almost all things.

[B]

It's almost. I mean, catastrophic mechanical failures do happen. You dig into the stats on aviation accidents. So it was never the case.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, so many other choices could have been made that day. But. But again, things happen for a reason. Yeah, we don't know. We generally don't know those reasons as the world is full of. But as Kobe was in the building that day having meetings and I had, you know, because I'm in innovation and good friends with Avar, and I have intel that, you know, I know where he's at. I'm like, hey, you know, you should go sit on this meeting. Because I'm, you know, so of course I can. I can crash any meeting and be like, hey, I've got to, you know, special operations guest here. I like to have him sit in, you know, and he sits at the table. And Kobe was pretty confident guy. You talk about, you know, competitor like that guy was driven to win like few others. That's what it takes to be the best, right? And. And he's talking about all this stuff, and he's basically leveraging the design team to like, push them. Like, he's challenging them to do better, do more. You know, if I'm making the game winning shot, you know, I need to be able to trust and have confidence in my product. So he's painting a picture and this cat guy's sitting, you know, a couple guys away and he's like, you know, he's like, well, you know, the unit where I come from, you know, we're super impressed with what you do. You know, all. All respect. He's like, we'd love to see you do that while people are shooting at you, you know, kind of a thing and might change your technique and might

[B]

do a jump shot from behind a rock or a bush.

[A]

And Kobe kind of just, you know, the guy next to him, then the employee next to Kobe is like, yeah, he's with Delta Force, you know, and

[B]

also that's a douchebag move because he chose to go down that path. And not everything has to be measured by her performance in a gun. In a gunfight.

[A]

Well, yeah, you know, the douchebag move being saying that the operator.

[B]

Yeah, well, not everything is about us. Not everything is about you getting shot.

[A]

I think he did it like you probably did with a laugh and a nudge of he. Because he didn't proclaim where he was from. He just said, you know, I think, you know, part of he was in a flow and in the building, he was in a flow on its head.

[B]

Kobe, like, yeah, I'd like to see you make a jump shot ever.

[A]

You know, like, again, that would have been a course of action. That would have.

[B]

And then they just would have.

[A]

They probably would have went outside on the blacktop top and now they wouldn't

[B]

have thought they would just stared awkwardly at each other because it's like they both just went chips in, but nobody's really sure what game they're playing. Is this blackjack or Texas holdup? Nobody knows. It would have just been an awkward pregnant pause.

[A]

Well, I mean, one thing I have observed a lot with guys when they're. I'm sure when you were damn neck, you were performing at a very high level in a lot of things. You Were you're on the razor's edge, and if Kobe said, hey, let's play a game of horse, you probably would have gave him a run for his money.

[B]

I would have played, but he would have fucked me up because I don't play basketball. But then I would have found something that we would. I'm like, okay. And then I actually love doing stuff like that, where you find somebody that you have no exposure to their core competency. And I go into it like, dude, Kobe, teach me how to do. That's how I would have approached that. Like, listen, you're going to annihilate me. But also, like, what are you thinking about when you're making a jump shot? Where's your balance? I would have asked him those questions and then said, do you want to check something out from the world that I come from? And hopefully he would have approached it from the same direction.

[A]

Well, and that's. That's what I loved observing, you know, because again, anytime you have two highest performers in the world together. Yeah, they're there to learn from each other. They're usually. It's never going to be, you know,

[B]

they're not a personality issue if they're anything other than back.

[A]

And people at your level, that level are not majoring dicks. You know, if you. If you want to say that, it's now, Jordan. Every time he walked on the court, it was like, I bet you. You know, he liked to gamble, but he liked to always be competing, always be pushing it. You know, everybody knew when he showed up anywhere. Bring your A game. Be ready to suffer or to be ready to be challenged. But. But, you know, just being honest about that exchange, what that exchange did in that room was. It wasn't. It wasn't arrogant. It didn't come across. It grounded the room. Yeah. You know, they respected each other. It was presented in such a way where it was two predators, you know, that live in arenas where there's high stakes. Whether the stakes are, you know, just excellence or brand value or life and death.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which are, again, for the Nike people in the room, it was a sobering reminder that there's still guys out there that are. That Kobe looks at as, like, all respect, man. You know, because, again, bringing it all back to where this conversation started, of you saying, hey, this is the ultimate competition. That's why I'm bringing that story up is because, you know, it was never lost on a Kobe. And. And what to this day, you know, the. The then CEO of Nike, Mark Parker, who came out to the unit for a couple days and did a, did a conversation with then, you know, Mark o', Neill, who was the, the commander of the unit at the time, and they talked about innovation, you know, and I sat at the table like a boardroom like this and brokered that conversation to try to throw nuggets in there that merge the worlds so that they could accelerate. Yeah, insights about what's relevant to each instead of just making guesses. And it was so anytime, you know, somebody, a tier one operator was sitting at a table with, with a Kobe or a Federer or somebody that happened to be in the building on occasion at Nike and the stars aligned, the staff, you know, the employees of that, that brand that are there to deliver excellence would have a moment of watching two worlds collide and, and walk out of there being reminded that not only do our top athletes on the planet that we serve bow, you know, the head, not, you know, nod to what, you know, people are really out there putting their life on the line for their ability to play their sport, for their ability to have the freedom they have, you know. And so how did you work your

[B]

way into those rooms? So talk me through the early aughts and how you. I mean, there's very few people who A, are going to get an invite into that room and B, are good enough to stay in that room because those are two very different things. You can get an invite to a lot of different rooms if you don't perform. See you later. You might get one, you might get two. How did your life shift where you started going down that direction? Because this can bring us back to the innovators playbook as well. We can start tying it into just how you set your. You got, you dipped your toes into this world. And where did it start?

[A]

It started in Nike. Innovation. I mean, you could say it started early in life working at my family business and learning how to make things, be it a maker, you know, being a maker and then in my 20s, martial arts guy go fight at Worlds in 95, full contact, lose a gold on a decision. Only big tournament I ever went to because my friends who are national champions and Pan Am Games champions and all this at the time were like, when we train, I would usually outperform most of them because I always had kind of just a. Not as competitive as I may be in the perspective of I'm in a pursuit to understand and understand, understand truth, which are two separate things. You know, I'm seeking truth, but I want to understand. And understanding can mean we don't know what the truth is. But I want to understand your belief and I want to understand how to bring my case to share with you, to articulate it, to be a good communicator. So understanding leads to coherency, shared coherency. Truth is something else. And so I've always been, been driven as an athlete to just train with the best. And, and you know, I, I wasn't big on competition. I didn't, I only went to that tournament because all my buddies were like, well, you think you're so good and you know, you think you're outperforming us in the dojo, if you will come on and get on the stage. And what I learned from that as well, everything's learning, right? It's like 800 competitors at this three day tournament up in Ottawa, Canada. And you know, know everybody's there from around the world. And, and I basically trained hard three months full contact, which I wasn't a big full contact guy. I did a lot of non contact, traditional, but full body targets and all that stuff. And, and so I adapted into a full contact mindset at 25 years old in 3 months and trained with all my black belts that, you know, I brought up and, and the first day, I mean I just got, I got through it, but I got destroyed. You know, I hadn't been, I hadn't been in full fight. You know, again, somebody's trying to destroy me.

[B]

It's not the dojo for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was like you're not facing off with people that actually care about you or know you are invested in your progress. So like, hey, what's up buddy? Yeah, I'm going through you.

[A]

It was like a car crash. Yeah. You know, you know, and, and it definitely, why I got through to the last fight of the night of the tournament, you know, was everything, you know, again everybody says you got a great plan to get punched in the face, you know, and the end of that day I got through it, but I was wrecked. And I just decided, I don't think I'm gonna survive this tournament, but I'm just gonna keep going, change my whole game, game plan into just, I'm just gonna play with everybody. Like I went in there to fight and instead, and you know, Bruce Lee had the phrase, you know, footwork, footwork beats any kick, any punch, anytime. And I always lived in that kind of Muhammad Ali heavy footwork kind of mindset, you know, not a bruiser, more of a finesse guy. But in that 25 year old mindset of first, first day of fighting, I went in with like, I'm gonna rage on these dudes. And I got raged on by like top competitors who knew how to fight competitively. And so changing my tactics to just not being there and, you know, not exchanging and moving, you know, and being much more systematic about it got me through to the end. I lost on a decision against a Canadian and, and I never went back because I just kind of like checked the box like to, to that, you know. And in cycling, I trained with teams across Europe and held myself to like a pro level of fitness, but never raced because racing means getting in the sprint. Maybe you get piled up, maybe you're injured for three to six months or worse. Those wrecks are, yeah, gnarly, massive pile ups, you know, but, but the science of cycling, you know, it's man and machine, it's nutrition. You know, Lance was the epitome of excellence. Forget his attitude. And you know, everybody's using drugs.

[B]

The enhancement.

[A]

Yeah, everybody's using in that sport for decades. You know, the only issue I have

[B]

any of them with the way that he went with that is that he tried to destroy people.

[A]

He did.

[B]

For telling the truth. And you wrote your own check on that one, buddy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And other people cashed it. Again, live your life how you want to.

[A]

Yeah, that's been, yeah, totally. You know, he's paid his dues, I think he's, he's, you know, and again, he's an animal, you know, but, you know, forget the personality again. My job as a problem solver is to take everything that's useful. Yep. And the things that are not useful, I don't discard them or discount them.

[B]

They're just not useful.

[A]

They're just not primary to. I get it to the mission of success. And so my goal is to learn from everything, you know, and so anyway, I checking the box, you know, now I'm a. Again, God puts me in a world championship performance. You know, I didn't win it, but I can say I went to the world championships, I can say I know how to make product. You know, I, I can, I'm riding with the top cyclists in the world. I'm putting cyclists on the podium at world's events in mountain biking and whatnot. So I got access to showing and proving. Hey, I can train athletes at the world level, I can be a world class athlete. But I love product and I love making things.

[B]

So is it reputation based when you start getting these invites to begin with and then you can show them what you're capable Of So then it becomes a combination of both reputation and production performance.

[A]

I mean, it's always reputation. Right. Like everything's reputation, everything's related.

[B]

You have to be able to perform as well though, too.

[A]

Well, yeah, yeah, no, we're getting to that for sure. Yeah. But primary, you have to be likable. Right. You know, unless you're the best at the science or the technology that you have, you can be an a hole because everybody needs what you have until

[B]

you're not at the top of the pyramid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, oh, wow, this thing's real slippery. We.

[A]

Right, yeah, exactly. No, I'm just acknowledging. Yeah. If you're not personable and relationship minded,

[B]

it's a door closed world.

[A]

Yeah. So. So it starts with being. I was, I've always been a great apprentice. You know, my martial arts history taught me how to be a good apprentice. Like sweep the floor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wait until you're invited onto the, onto the mat and then be humble. Whether you're a black belt or not. Show up everywhere as a beginner.

[B]

Be a value add is a term very common in the, a soft community.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Whatever you're doing, whoever you're with, just be a value add.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And it's noticed, it's appreciated, and that's where reputations are built.

[A]

Totally 100 and so. So I got into Nike through teaching a martial arts class. They wanted to have a corporate martial arts program, so that got me in the door. And then being a relationship guy, I started to build relationships through proximity. Now I'm on the campus because I live out there, you know, and so over the next next five, ten years, I just, I ask questions to everybody I want to get, hey, what do you do? You know, what's your role here? You know, oh, tell me more about that. Hey, can we get coffee? You know, every opportunity is one you either make use of or it's missed, you know, and that's been my life. You know, if you're not a college graduate, if you're not going to be in the conventional path of how you follow the program and the paths that other people have trod, then you better be creative, you better be innovative, you better be unafraid to blaze a trail where no one's gone. And, you know, you've done that. I've done that. And so eventually I, I meet the heads of innovation. You know, Tinker essentially through, you know, working out, training at the campus. He's a cyclist, I'm a cyclist. We started finding a common ground on bicycles and Eventually I get an opportunity to basically come into the innovation space because, you know, I'm not just a kid at that point. I'm in my early 30s and I'm established as a, as a subject matter expert somewhat on campus. You know, people can come to me, talk about product. I'm kind of un. Informally unofficially giving input on development of new things and you know, just somebody's taking me to lunch or taking me to coffee and. Because I'm not really seeking a corporate job, you know, I'm a coach. You know, I'm. I'm flipping houses with my wife and my dad and doing sweat equity and, you know, staying out of debt by flipping houses every two years and paying off debt and, you know, just living the American dream, so to speak, in a simple way. The Matrix.

[B]

The matrix. Blue pills.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Actually, I don't know if you can say that because I think those are dick pills.

[A]

That's our mind control. The blue pill's good. The blue pills good.

[B]

I just think also the blue pill is Viagra and all the other stuff. So what? Whatever color pill kept you. The matrix.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I didn't build up a bunch of debt, you know, and I wasn't in the corporate game, you know, so I wasn't really in the Matrix again. I was an outlier. I've always been an outlier. You've probably always been an outlier in your own way. And so. So eventually I get the opportunity to come into the innovation space, which at the time at Nike in the early 2000s, 25 individuals. You know, it's in a small space that looks like a workshop. You know, it's not corporate, it's not clean, it's not sanitized. It's very messy, like a workbench. And, and so in Tinker's little five man group, five person group, you know, we had a woman in there as well, that was special projects. He called his group the Pantry, you know, and it was a play on words because Bill Bowerman, the co founder, did the first, you know, popularized shoe with his waffle iron in the kitchen, you know, the waffle bottom.

[B]

And so it was for Fontaine, right?

[A]

Yep. Yeah, yep. Always paying homage to, to the, the roots. I mean, again, that's what the first generation Nike guys did, is they always tied things back to the source, to the, to the soul of the beginnings of Nike. That's what's being diluted today as those individuals age out.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And move on. So keeping that culture alive, back to the thousand year project and tying it all in. Like, how do we do, how do we maintain things? Just like the world, control structure. See, it all comes full circle.

[B]

So waffle patterns.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

It's all back to waffles controlling us.

[A]

If you have good waffles, you know, you can just bend people's wills with

[B]

Waffle House, but actually probably good bend quite a few people's will with good waffles. If we're looking at this objectively.

[A]

See note to self. So I get, I get an opportunity to go in there and, and it's, it's about being a value, you know, it's about like and, and it was a hard road to get in there, more or less. I had access, but more as a, as an outlier. Like, I'm not trying to be a Nike employee. I'm like, I have skills, I have experience and I have built relationships with everybody that's in that group. So I'm not somebody trying to come in the front door, Nike and post a resume and get hired as innovation designer, or, you know, an innovator, whatever the title may be based on the timeline. But. And so the kitchen, it was, it was positioned behind the literal cafeteria in the Mia Ham building. the time, kind of a. It was very clandestine, if you will. It was very much like a JSOC kind of thing. When you're walking down the buildings, like in cag, it's in the spine and you just got steel doors with little portals. What's in there? You know, that's, that's the Signal Reconnaissance office or that's whatever. So same thing. It's off, off the way. There's no signage, non descript. If you don't know where it is, you're not going to find it kind of a thing. And so since this is the kitchen, we're going to be the pantry, you know, so it was always playing on words and themes. That's what creatives do. That's what anything that's fun and wants to be attractive does. And so getting in there, once I got in there and invited to basically see what I could contribute, most of the people in that group were seasoned. Some came out of Apple and had changed careers into Nike innovation. Because Nike and Apple were very integrated at the time. In the early 2000s. Mark Parker, the CEO then, and Steve Jobs were good friends.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

Yep. And Nike was working on a thing called Nike plus where they dropped that technology from Apple in to give you information. It was early wearables. Yep.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The first gen wearables so that made a lot of cross pollination for sure between the brands where people were like, oh, this is my opportunity to leave Apple and go to Nike and Nike people to go to Apple. So, you know, and that's where, I don't know if it's public, it probably is, but I mean that's when Steve Jobs, as a friend was telling Parker, you know, you got too much on the shelves. You know, look at us, we just do this and we do this and we do it the best in the world. Everything talks to each other and it's, it's a fully autonomous, you know, ecosystem so that, you know, the, that's where again, iron sharpens iron the best. It's you and Kobe, you know, sitting on the basketball court comparing notes about how to go back to your respective arenas and be the best you could be in the model that you painted. And that's what they did. And so, so at the time we had guys that had been 20 years in innovation and technology and you know, it's the senior crew, no different than a JSOC model. You arrive there through a privilege of having done enough reps somewhere else and having the right attributes that now you're in this very elite space in that brand. And I'm sitting in there and going, well, look at me, you know, but I'm still a young buck back to the young and dumb stuff. And, and so I am working in there and, and I'm basically like, some of them show up 9 or 10 in the morning, kind of saunter in because they've been doing it a long time. But you also start to learn whether people accept it or not in the corporate model, who the heck are they? They get to show up late. Just like guys in the JSOC world get to dress different, they get to wear their hair different. You know, they've earned it. But they also have a different mission set. And everyone else that's judging it harshly doesn't understand that mission set, doesn't understand the privilege of why there's a responsibility with how you carry yourself. And, and, and so in that brand it was the same. Again, I can see the parallels. So when I'm sitting talking between the marks at the compound, Delta's compound, I'm bridging all these stories of observations that I've aggregated over years between these two tier one communities, if you will. And so they are basically, the senior guys are showing up late. Why? Because they probably got up at 5 or 6am and went to their workbench in their garage and spent three or four hours cobbling something or sketching something in the privacy of their space because they need total focus. And then they show up because they have to show up and check in and interact with their peers and then check in with the categories, but then by two or three before traffic picks up, up the exit, because they're going to go back, you know, tier one guys. I mean, DJ Shipley again, probably was the guy on his first interview with Sean Ryan went full kimono on the obsession, like the relentless destruction of his life, of his obsession to be the best, among the best, and, and still falling short on many levels. And so.

[B]

So again, and also, at what cost?

[A]

At what cost? Just like you said, what is failure and quitting worth at the cost of everything? You know?

[B]

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[A]

Back to the show where I've been able to be a participant. And you know, I do pride myself on having lived a fairly balanced life, even though it doesn't exist in most cases. But, but I also recognize I, I highly respect everyone that achieves greatness in their space. I, you know, I'm not the best at anything. I'm really good at a lot of things. I feel like I've had a pretty good life as a friend, as a, as a father, as a husband, you know, I still ended up divorced, but. But I always tried to show up for my people, you know, and I probably failed a lot still. But I was always trying to seek a balance, not an obsession. Because I recognized from training athletes in my 20s that wanted to be world champions, if you want to be world champion, it has to be the only thing that matters.

[B]

It has to be your life.

[A]

And so I was never willing to make any one thing my life. And so. But I got really lucky, you know, to have a lot of access and to dedicate enough obsessive time to deliver. So when I got in that building and I got in that space and I saw how they were working, I couldn't do that. So I woke up for years at 5 or 6am and drove in there and I was first in, hours before anyone would show up, trying to make, make myself of value because whether I was prototyping something or, or whatever, and even then, because I had different methods. I grew up in a cobbling space I didn't know the, the method of making shoes the way the Nike, you know, method was or the traditional footwear company model was. And so I had to go through my own process of, of making it dirty, making it ugly. And the first week or two I tried to go in during normal hours into the sample room and construct a shoe by my own. How would I build a shoe? You know, we've all worn shoes our whole lives, we're high performers. What, how, what approach would I take? And I'd start doing it and the staff in the sample room would just be looking over my shoulder like, what are you doing? You know, and I'd be like, just leave me alone. And then they'd help me and they'd correct me. But I'd be like, like, well no, I gotta see this through. I have to connect these dots. Like that's probably where the TISM comes in.

[B]

Let me make my best worst shoe ever and leave me alone.

[A]

Exactly. And within a day or two of like a lot of people with the best intentions to help me succeed, I mean it was a, that organization, you know, I mean, I mean there's a lot of. Everything that I mention in the book is positive. I mean it shaped me, it gave me me, gave me tools and it's, it's the highest standard in the sports industry for excellence. Just like again, the parallels between the tier one world. You don't get to be the biggest in your industry. I mean Nike is, Nike is as big as all of its competitors combined. Is it really?

[B]

Yeah, I did not know that.

[A]

And so that's not by chance, it's by intention and design. You know, it. And it's its relentless pursuit of excellence. And I mean Phil was quoted at one time in his career of like, the footwear industry is war without bullets. And that's fair, that's his mindset of, I mean again back to winning and competition. You know, you don't, you don't achieve the highest level of anything if, if it's not everything, essentially. And so, so I never needed to have the highest level of anything. I just, just, I wanted to be among them and learn from them. So I'm totally wired to be the best second place guy, the best second in command, the best second contributor out there. In fact, it's almost like, am I the only one standing there? A spotlight? Who can I put over here? So this whole thing of me coming on shows and doing a book and being the center of attention. Yeah, you know, it'll probably be short lived. It'll be a moment. Because it's really what I'm doing is sending a signal out to the world that like, hey, hey, I'm in the best years of my life from experience, knowledge, and I'm still viable physically and capable. Use me as a tool, put me in your toolbox, and let's go get cool done, you know, kind of a thing. And so, so getting in there and getting access to that was like, how do I over deliver every day? And the value add, the value add. And what I was up against, which, you know, everyone can relate to. Right. Is who was I to deserve being in there? So, you know, of course there were people in that group who looked at me as like, who's this guy that just showed up that doesn't have reps in the industry, doesn't come out of our industry, didn't come through the corporate model, kind of walked in off the street. In fact, I think he walked in off of a aerobics class or something. Wasn't he teaching aerobics like us?

[B]

He was teaching that fighting aerobics.

[A]

Yeah. Wasn't he teaching like, you know, something silly over there? You know, And I was, because I was working with athletes I was coaching, you know, and I never took a dollar from any executive as a, as a trainer because my martial arts thing taught me I don't want to be leveraged into a position of being employed, you know, so if an executive came to me and goes, hey, I want, I'm going to do this cycling event or I'm going to train for this event, and you want to work with me? Yeah, I'll totally work with you. But, but if I saw them as somebody in leadership or somewhere I wanted to learn from, as a mentor, I would say, hey, no, I don't want your money. I want, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you everything I know to make you the best I can the next 90 days. And while we're training, I'm gonna ask you questions.

[B]

You say, I got questions.

[A]

Yep. And I'm gonna learn as much as I can. And everybody that signed on for that, I, I, to this day, you know, still takes my calls as a, as a relentless pursuer of knowledge and understanding because they're, they're most cases, 10 or 20 years ahead of me. And, and, and the ones that said, no, I'd rather I want to just pay you, I'd be like, well, I'm probably not the best fit for you. You know, you should train with that guy over there and hire them and they moved on. And so. So it's a better dynamic that way. Yeah. I mean, in my opinion, my wife at the time would have wished I would have taken more income, you know, and those are always other stories, you

[B]

know, that's, I mean that's the short term approach versus the long term job journey. The income that you could derive from that may not be calculatable at the time because you don't know where that information is going to lead you.

[A]

Totally. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I'm a, I'm, I'm the living embodiment of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lack of wealth, but incredible deep knowledge and resources and relationships globally, you know, which you can't put a number on. Like I, I joke often, Elon may in the world have the most cool job because he gets to touch on all this technology and he has the money to back it, of course, but at some point, even when he was a PayPal guy, he still gets put on the radar as a guy who closed a big deal on selling a company. And now he's a known. He's on the COVID of a magazine. And so that's a calling card. I've done everything in my 56 years as nobody knows who I am. The only people that know who I am are someone that, that hey, yeah, call them. You know, I'm an, I'm an unknown and it's been by design. Even when I worked with Kanye and, and that movie came out recently and hit and whose name or something about Kanye. About Kanye and it was in the theaters. It's kind of a document drama, documentary thing.

[B]

But how was it?

[A]

I didn't even see it yet, but same.

[B]

But wasn't aware that it existed until about several seconds ago.

[A]

But I was there for that entire. While they were capturing the whole thing. And because I try to maintain relationships in the, in the low vis arenas, I just made it clear as my whole tenure with, with Kanye, I'm here to deliver outcomes. I'm not here to be part of your machine. You know, when the, when the deliverables are done, I'll be leaving. You know, you probably know Juan Gonzalez. You know, Gonzo was in the teams. Yeah, you know, Gonzo came. I brought Gonzo in as a, a, as an EP guy, international, you know, protection guy. And basically when I came in, as most of us do, where we go somewhere, we have, we have high stakes deliverables. We bring in our own assets that we can trust. And so he was surrounded by people that just wanted to suck on the teat. You know, that were B and C players that had something that got his attention. They had some, some nugget of excellence to them, but they weren't really a center of excellence. And once someone got in there, they just, they just held on tight as they could, you know, and wrote contracts for, for money, you know, and, and milked it as much as they could. Is. Is what I saw a lot. And when I went in there, I was like, I don't care about any of this. You're an interesting person. You're doing interesting things. That's what brings me anywhere. And here's, here's what we'll do for the exchange of, you know, value. You know, this is what you pay me and this is what I'll deliver on this timeline. I'll bring in guys that are basically mercenaries for, you know, for business results. They're going to tell you, you know, again, I'm not going to, I'm not going to intermediate because I'm not a gatekeeper. I'm going to set you up with so and so they're going to negotiate their value in terms you agree to it or you don't. Once I've got my guys in, I'm going to crush this thing in the next 90 days to six. Six months. Once my executive summary was done of the 10 things I delivered, I was like, I'm out. And he was like, yeah, I'm exhausted. You exhausted me. You know, because high accountability, grinding him, you know, just. It was total, total business. It was no.

[B]

What was he like to work for?

[A]

For me, it was not a problem at all. I mean, because I don't get caught up in the noise. I don't get caught up in the drama. And, and the.

[B]

His life seems to be largely about noise and drama. And I say this from somebody who has no optic on it other the outside. And I do. I don't know if people know this, I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but I will say it would appear to an uneducated person that he may be struggling with some deep mental health issues.

[A]

Yeah, well.

[B]

Or that's the natural expression of what stress can do to anybody. Or a combination of. I can't fathom being like having your life in the public eye like that. I don't know whose life could survive scrutiny. Every mistake is captured, rewritten, not rewritten, but reposted. I mean, that would be.

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, so I think there's a through line here through this whole conversation, right. Whether you mention the earth or you mentioned. We mentioned Conspiracy theories or, you know, we joked about COVID the start of this.

[B]

Covid's not a joke, sir. It was serious.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Which. It was serious. But was it as serious as people said? I don't know.

[A]

Correct. Yes. So all of these things that are highly impactful on people's lives, you know, and we could say that on Kanye because he has 200 million touch points that he influences with a. With a post.

[B]

Yeah, that's a lot of pressure associated with that as well, too.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Human. Human brains have not evolved to the place where I think they can even understand what that means.

[A]

No, and it's a. It's a lot of attention, which is a lot of energy, emotional energy, which is the. You know. I didn't finish the thought on Supernatural. You know, let me come back to that now real quick. We're in a natural world, you know, everything is natural. It's of nature, whether it's technology or not. It's been constructed out of materials.

[B]

Yeah, I get where you're going.

[A]

And the periodic table, you know, which is all natural, essentially, except for the

[B]

stuff we're making out of alien shit. It's a different periodic table.

[A]

Even that's.

[B]

Yes, it's on a table somewhere. I'm just saying maybe not on ours because we don't understand it yet or have access.

[A]

Bob Lazar was talking about. About element x 15 years before it got added.

[B]

I also think you might have experimented heavily with acid.

[A]

It's a given, you know. Come on.

[B]

You know, two things can be true.

[A]

You did go to college, so, you know.

[B]

But you do in college. I missed that experience.

[A]

Well, see, that's why we missed it. But so supernatural. The real is we are awash in the supernatural. I use the word awash because just like, just like electronics, radio signals, all, if we could see the spectrum of all the different frequencies and light spectrum, we would see. See all these lights and things moving all the time. Waves, Everything.

[B]

Yeah. Radio waves, Bluetooth, all this depending on the spectrum you're seeing.

[A]

This room is full of it. So. So there is. There is a presence of an energy field all the time. And it's different colors, it's different densities, it's all these things. There is a spirit reality because there's just too many reports. There's an infinite amount of reports about, you know, whether people see shadow people or they see ghosts or something moves across the table and no one knows how that happened, you know. And again, in my problem solving reality, only one example has to be factually accurate. One to, to open the door for many examples to be accurate. But if not one is true, not one, then, then none of it is probably true. So if any report that we don't deem conspiracy theory has one accurate complete factual evidentiary capture, the door is now open for any, any amount of them to, but to be possible.

[B]

That's tough because everything in the world could then be conspiracy theory.

[A]

Well, that's fair, that's fine. You know, and some people live that way, right? Like back to the, the limit of people's wanting to debate something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Some nihilist, you know, everything, the world's going to end. An optimist, Everything's great, everything's fine. You know, the two extremes.

[B]

So which both can be true at exactly the same time.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

It may all end and everything might be fine right now, but at some point those two lines.

[A]

Yeah, and then there's, you know, back to your point about labeling. Everything's labeling because labeling gives us comfort. Labeling makes us feel like, okay, I can put this in this box on the shelf and come back to it later. I'm comfortable now. You know, I live in a world of ambiguity. You know, again, I do too. Back to the JSOC model. High tolerance or ambiguity, you know, it's right alongside being a high adapter, high speed adapter. So I have a huge, I mean, when I go to places like DARPA and I spend time and build relationships with directors or PMs, you know, know when I go into places of high intelligence because they're being deemed or tagged as like a knowledge expert on some topic at some point, when I've learned enough about the organization or I've learned enough about their status in that ecosystem of subject matter expertise, I might say, so what, how do you rate me as like a open mindedness or interesting or a no limits thinker?

[B]

Just so listen for feedback back. Yep.

[A]

Yeah. Because what I'm looking for is like, am I crazy? Because a lot of people might look at me as too much.

[B]

In fact, they're all crazy.

[A]

Well, if everybody, everybody looks at me as too much, that's a fact. Like at some point you're not too much.

[B]

I'm not there yet.

[A]

Well, thank you. Yeah, we're not there yet.

[B]

Yeah, give me time.

[A]

Give me time. So give me time. And so across the board, because what I'm looking for is like, am I irrational? Am I not grounded? Am I trying to just be provocational for the sake of being provocative?

[B]

But aren't those great questions that everybody should ask themselves.

[A]

Absolutely. And that's why I'm, I'm posing it. And, and what I got from Agency Directorate and DARPA Directorate, two groups that work in a lot of ambiguity, that are, have high, high responsibility for outcomes that probably society will never know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But also it shaped society as we know it. And so they're like, you know, Justin, Yeah. You're the most no limits thinker I know. You know, which again I take as a source of confirmation because whether it's an earth shape or it's, you know, some other topic of conspiracy and you know, the phrase conspiracy was coined by the agency to just become a, a lightning rod for someone who's challenging a narrative.

[B]

The agency didn't coin the term conspiracy. It existed in the English langu language long before that.

[A]

Well, they popularized it for a purpose. Perhaps what they did it was a narrative control tool.

[B]

They positioned it as a pejorative.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Or as something that crazy people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because then they could angle it in that way. Was that the agency. I don't know, maybe they could light the spark for that. But a lot of people certainly piled on because. Yeah, if you do think about the term conspiracy theorist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think most people are going to put, if you had open bucket or crazy person like an open thinker or a crazy person. They're gonna be like, this is a hub up.

[A]

No, you're right. Well, and, and where I push back against people that use that as a, as a line to draw where I don't want to go any farther in my thinking. I don't want to entertain this possibility. Either I don't have the emotional bandwidth or I don't have the psychological bandwidth or I don't have the time bandwidth, you know, all of which are real constraints.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And every, I mean, without exaggeration, every single person I know has a guardrail on where that is. And I don't. And that's one major difference for me with everyone is because believe me, if you give me enough time and enough range on topic, we can find the limits of someone's ability to consider. Simply consider 100 the possibility. And so for me as a problem solver and why, why I get asked in these rooms is I don't lead with, with my beliefs and I don't have rigidity on beliefs because all I need is continue getting more information because my belief is constantly reshaping.

[B]

Deep belief. Loosely held.

[A]

Yes. Excellent. And so, so I will basically look for. Well, on the one hand, you know, problem solving is constantly Adapting to new information. And so there's been models where A high performing CEO is, is excellent at looking at 180 degrees from horizon to horizon and keeping tabs on their entire company. You know, the best CEOs, they have an unnatural gift of being able to do that. But you know, a directorate person who's now on the board at the agency, you know, board of advisors, you know, multi generation contributor there, somebody I've been close to for, for a good 10, 12 years, I consider key advisor, you know, and again, I don't always know where they stand on world events because that's the nature of their life. But he gave me this feedback at one point and said, you know, Justin, there's, there's, there's 180 degree leadership, you know, that, that basically use information and see across the whole, from horizon to horizon. And those are amazing leaders. But there's a few examples on the earth of 360 thinkers. And he's like, Elon's a 360 thinker, can see the full, you know, he's like, and you are. Because what I see you do is you can have a 360 model that you're totally locked in on and this is what you think with the best of your knowledge, with the information you have. But if I input one new piece of information into that matrix, it basically ripples across the entire 360 and it updates the entire model and things. All the data points that were key decision points now are, oh, this piece of information changed everything. And so, so when I look at all of this data that people don't want to wrap their heads around and we can get into the supernatural.

[B]

Well, some of it they can't. Again, we all have a level. Like I, there are things that are so far outside of my technical knowledge and understanding that I almost put them in a box. Like, listen, I would like to. Yeah, beyond my ability.

[A]

Yeah, and that's fair. And, and I, and again, it isn't a judgment on my part, it's not a condemnation, it's a, a, it's an observation. And so, so my job to be the best problem solver I can be on the planet is to not deny any information. Now some people push back. Like if you don't have a filter, how do you know you're not going down the wrong rabbit hole or the wrong, you know. Well, so far. And people will validate this. Like I can go 24 hours, I can go days and, and never get tired of processing information. That's one of My God. Gifts of like, metacognition, never getting mentally tired, don't have any emotional association to the data. That's where I'm not affected by the Kanye rants and the psychosis that people get triggered by the way, it is real.

[B]

I mean, some of them have been captured. But is that kind of just his way?

[A]

It's his way. And, and part of that's because, you know, at 11 years old, he was molested, you know, and. Yeah, and he's a. He's open about this. He's talked about it publicly. You know, at whatever point someone faces a trauma as a child, some part of their emotional development doesn't. Stops, doesn't continue. And so I've heard the same thing about fame. Yeah.

[B]

Whatever age you achieve some level of fame, you stop emotionally growing at that point as well. Which seems to be why people who are later in life tolerate it better than, say, child actors.

[A]

Sure. That's totally makes sense. And I think what's to be learned

[B]

from a guy like Kanye, like, you were around him for a bit, take the ranting and stuff out of him. It. Did you take anything away from him as a person that you could learn and apply?

[A]

Well, one thing that I, that sticks a lot for sure, that I reference and, and is he'll be on a rant and he'll be on, you know, he, he uses the word rant. So it's not a derogatory, you know, like, description of him. He'll. He'll say, I got to go on this rant. And so it really just means I'm going to cut loose, you know, kind of a thing, which he's, he's. That's his norm. And so sometimes he'd be on a, on, on a rant, and we're in a meeting where something important has to happen, and I'll be focused on what's important for the meeting, the outcome. But he's processing, he's verbally processing something on somewhere he's trying to go. And I'm focused on my deliverable in that meeting, and I'm not focused on his deliverable. And this is, I'm telling you this in a clinical analysis of it, to be able to, to take away elsewhere. And so what, what I was focused on was, was my, my role there. I wasn't focused on hearing him. I wasn't focused on where is he going. I was just, you know, and this is normal in most conversations, you know, even in a marriage, people are focused on their own outcome. And I would interrupt him at some point, because I'm thinking we're getting off track. And he's classically known for running five different stories and then. But he will tie it back. If you're patient enough or you have enough information, you'll understand how he's passing, saying, tying it back. But people lose patience or they get distracted by the theatrics of how he's communicating or whatever. And at one point, after probably the second or third time, I interrupted him over a series of days or weeks, you know, not. Not in one day, but he basically said, look, man, I need you to stop interrupting me. And I was like, okay. And he goes. Because every time you interrupt me, you're you. You break my flow.

[B]

Flow.

[A]

And my flow is I'm trying to get somewhere. I'm working through a problem.

[B]

That's his path.

[A]

And I'm trying to. I'm trying to get to where I'm going. And when you stop and start interjecting something, because I've observed it, I lose where I was going. And so now. Now, whether that was specifically important then or later, what I took from that is it made me. Because I try to internalize, like, this is my boss. I'm here to serve this king right now as. As a servant, you know, being paid for something, I'm there to be of service, you know, add value. You know, he's very triggered by words. If you're saying you're there to help, I don't need your help, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He gets offended like he needs help. Hey, I got an idea. I don't need your idea. I got a thousand ideas a minute, you know, and he does. And so part of being in his ecosystem, which, again, I take away, and this is somewhat contradictory, words are incredibly important to him. Like, he had. He. He had a Webster dictionary for a long time that he. When he. In his spare time, he would open and he would cross out words in it that. That he thought were not clear or that he didn't think where it should be in the. In the. In the language, you know? Yeah. And so, you know, because he's amusing, you know, he writes bars as a rapper.

[B]

So.

[A]

So he. He does write some incredible bars. I mean, you know, he's an artist for sure, and he says some things that are totally out of bounds, you know, and there's always an intention behind those things that he says where he might be trying to break someone's mind, break some societal expectation, or he might be crazy. Well, I. I can honestly say that that I understand most of his points because I have context. And, and, and I 100 can see where you just said that you're just ended your relationship with Adidas and you just ended your whole income stream and you, you just took yourself out of relevance in society. You know, two years ago when he did the Alex Jones show and he did the whole thing about Hitler being an innovator, Adidas had to end it, you know, so, but, but I'm not going to get into that. But, but I know where it's coming from and I know the grounding that it's coming from. He's just not gifted publicly to articulate it in a way where Elon can articulate something in a very engineered sense to get you to understand how he's going to go to Mars or how he's going to get these cars to do whatever they're going to do or batteries or pick your topic and because they're friends. And when I was in that ecosystem again, I would, I would, would. Yay. Let's go sit down with Elon. Kanye's full of incredibly humanitarian ideas. Like, you know, he is his own worst enemy, hands down. And, but because Kanye has the access to the world of, you know, getting the attention of 200 million people or a billion, you know, if he really wanted to, I mean, once you're past a certain number, the ceiling's off, right? Like if, if he said something that really mattered or really was worth the attention of the world, it would get around the world. It would get around the world. And so with that kind of influence, you know, my circle of influence, my, my, my team of problem solvers, you know, whether they're scientists, like, you know, one of my former bosses, mentor friends was Bill Gates, chief advisor on science and medicine for four or five years while I was with Kanye, Dr. Gregory was advising Gates and, and, and so again, you know, I'm one step into, you know, whether it's getting into Elon's office or getting into Gates office or getting into JSOC or getting into the agency or getting into Harvard or getting into Nike. You know, I mean, there's Apple. I go meet with the heads of Apple Innovation on a regular basis who are friends of mine. Just, just, you know, because I'm out there in the world trying to make good things happen. And Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile, I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you

[B]

to Mint Mobile today.

[A]

I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[B]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month.

[A]

Required intro rate, first 3 months only,

[B]

then full price plan available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail] goes back

[A]

to what you said earlier about having a skill set. You got to be good at what you do and you got to be in relationship, you know, and obviously I look unconventional. I am unconventional.

[B]

I don't think so. Not where you're from.

[A]

Okay, well, thank you.

[B]

You know, you're like, I mean, you've come talk about the Pacific Northwest. Like you are actually on the side of a Cheerios box. You know, like we're talking right down the center of the road. The tires are not touching either side. Side. Throw a flannel on. Perhaps walk down the street with an axe. You know what I mean? A pipe.

[A]

Importantly, I got to cut a few more lines and clean it up to be a little more hip.

[B]

Throw like a hiking meat in there. You're totally good.

[A]

Now you're talking. Yes, absolutely. You know, when I leave here, I'm going to stop at the barber and get, get, I mean, don't get crazy, get gussied up. But, but in those environments, you know, back to yay. It's, you know, I would love it if he could ground himself into a mission because he, I mean, there was a period where I was sitting in there two years ago and he, he had a desire to build orphanages in the US to bring like the orphanage model back. You know, because he, he deeply believes that people are taken advantage of. He deeply understands the harms that are being done to kids in the world. You know, he, he's, he suffered abuse himself. He's terrible at putting together the best plan, the cleanest plan, articulating it and then letting it come to fruition. You know, he, he does have incredible ideas. Again, Elon was asked one point in an interview like, well, who inspires you? And without missing a beat, he was like Kanye west, you know, and that's because somebody like Elon needs the most eccentric ideation imaginable because he makes the most impossible things possible. He does incredible things. I'm not the biggest fan of Elon. He's unstable and inflammatory in his own ways. And again, what I do is gravitate toward. I'll take access to excellence anywhere. I'll manage the Semantics and the politics of it. Because my mission is how do I push humanity to another level? How do I push the outcome of this solution to the highest level? Level. What is the highest level possible? Great. If that's our North Star, can we meet it? Can we exceed it? What are our resources? Who are we partnered with? You know, so it's very groundable mechanics. Yeah.

[B]

Actionable steps, what you're talking about. What kind of advice would Elon give to him if they would sit down? I feel like that's like a clashing of, like, this crazy artist, which is almost like stream of consciousness versus I have know nothing again, about Elon other than what I can see be long pauses sometimes maybe a little bit. You know what I mean? He can tell. He's thinking about how he wants to convey. It's very, at a minimum, communication styles.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think Elon learned early on in their friendship that sitting in the room, sitting at a table with Kanye is unpredictable. Like. Like you could, if you're not conscious of your language use. So, I mean, I'm pretty disciplined in how I speak. You're very disciplined in major. You know, even though you. You. You're super quick wit. I mean, Brent Tucker and I were, like, admiring, like, fastest mind, you know, out there doing podcasts.

[B]

He's using the army standard, though, which is just a tier below.

[A]

See, that's my point. Your ability to grasp something and totally

[B]

joking everybody in the army. I love you guys.

[A]

Your ability to grasp, take a concept, concept quickly from a whole category and apply it. That's. That's fast mind, you know, deep thinking of like, you. You're almost like a vessel that's open to quick input, you know, more or

[B]

less those hand gestures. All right, Michael, was the camera on him during that time period?

[A]

It was.

[B]

We're gonna go ahead and need to use some AI for that. I have ideas. Mark that on the tape.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

I already did.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

You are just double fisting? I can put some things in your hands there that I think are gonna be pretty awesome.

[A]

O great.

[B]

Anyway, back to Kanye.

[A]

Yeah. I think, you know, Elon is intelligent enough to know that if he's sitting down with Kanye, he's sitting down with Kanye because he's trying to get somewhere with Kanye, and he knows Kanye is a wild card. So they're both people that want to make use of time effectively. They both have their own missions, and Elon, I think, doesn't waste a moment of the day without moving whatever his. His. His object forward. So if you sit down with Kanye, he's got something in mind. He's going to take. He's there to take an idea from. Kanye could be something that's just an artistic vision. It could be something that's an experience, because Kanye as an artist, he's always imagining experience. There's one point where he wanted to have just a pump skate park, you know, with electric skateboards. He's always thinking like a playground for fun and. But something that uses everything of. Of the highest order. Right. Of. Of technology, you know, or at one point, he was envisioning, like, a 360 sphere, where you sit in a movie theater and it's. You're. You're encapsulated in the movie experience, you know, so it's beyond, you know, imax, you know, kind of a thing. And. And again, in.

[B]

In.

[A]

Well, let me finish the thought on interrupting, right. What. What I really internalized, because, again, I don't want to look at it as like, he's just telling me not to interrupt him, because that's the surface reaction that people's egos get. I try not to be offended by anyone's comments. Like, I want to hear information as critique and be like, is it accurate? Is it not? And if it's not accurate, to me, I'll debate it. But then people feel like, wow, you have a really hard time taking feedback. I'm like, well, I don't think your feedback is accurate, so let's find accuracy back to understanding and shared coherency, which will get to the truth, and then I can grow from that if we can unpack it. So as he's telling me not to interrupt him because it's breaking his flow, I took that and I started going. I started looking at times where I would want to interrupt someone, and sometimes I would test it, and I would interrupt them. And then later on, I might ask him, did I break your flow? Like, Or I'd see that they lost their train of thought and I was the cause of it. So I started realizing. And obviously, in podcasting, that's a big thing, right? Like, people will say, wow, they didn't let the. The guest. Yeah, it's a tennis match or whatever. Yeah. And some guests, I mean, some hosts do a lot of injection, and some let it ride a lot. Like, to me, you do a great job of just letting it unfold. Rogan does as well. Sean Ryan, incredibly. And other ones, it's like a banter, you know, And. And I just treat it as like, hey, I'm on Their show, they have their subscribers and followers. They're there for them. Them. Every guest is a value add, but they're there for the host. And so when people tell me, man, that person didn't really let you go, I was like, the more they talk, the less I have to talk. The stress is off me, the pressure is off of me. So I'm totally great with it. But that thing unfolded into my relationships into like, it changed how I listened and doesn't matter whether he employs it or he uses it, the way he uses changed how I communicate and how I receive from people. And I also, you know, it being in his proximity and listening to these rants, I'm like, what's he trying to say? Forget the volume, forget the cussing, forget the angry black man. You know, because that triggers some people, whatever the term is, as a descriptor, what's his point? And, and so because I'm comfortable in high conflict environments, you know, as a fighter. And then, you know, I think that worked for me in JSOC and the soft community of like, I'm not, not. We can go out and fight outside if you want, and then come back in and work through this. And I still joke about that sometimes in corporate environments where I'm sitting with a bunch of suits and it gets heated and somebody starts kind of attacking my idea, but they're really attacking me

[B]

and I'm like, ad hominem attack, if you will.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And I'll be like, hey, man, we can step outside and throw blows and get out, whatever you need to get out, you know, and. And that's a bit over masculine, you could say, you know, but that's our nature. Right. We're four alphas. You know, if you can't rage and you can't do violence, you're probably under prepared in a number of environments. So I think it was Jordan Peterson who said, you know, the capability of violence, but the choice not to do it is virtuous, you know. Yeah, but to not be violent but have no real capacity for it, you're just helpless. Yeah, there's no virtue in that. So, yeah, so yay. You know, there was that.

[B]

It's tough. I don't think a lot of people would get the message in that. A lot of people would just think, well, he's a dick. And they wouldn't take the additional step. I mean, depending where I'm at in my life as far as the age on that, I probably would have a way different reaction.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Earlier in life, you're like you, man. Like you. You know, like, you're just. You've wasted two hours of our time. But A, you're there to work for the dude, and B, I wouldn't have had the ability to realize that this is just the way that he processes information. Again, gets to the end state.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just need to maybe work on perhaps understanding better who it is I'm working for and listening.

[A]

Sure. Well, great way to express that. I mean, you and I've been there. We've all been there. Because we've all underperformed and looked back later and went like, what? We thought we were meeting the standard or.

[B]

It's what I'm known for, if I'm being honest.

[A]

Look where he got you. You know, I mean, whatever.

[B]

We're sitting in that fake gun vault, you know, it's like, that's where it got me.

[A]

Somebody's gonna listen to this and be like, that was cool. I like what Andy said right there, you know, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna use that. So.

[B]

So there were lessons, even though there

[A]

was a lot of lessons, you know, in every environment I've been in, the older I get, the more accomplished I seem to be. You know, I get more selective where I go, and the stakes seem to be higher and. And, you know, it's less frivolous. It's not just trying to pay the rent. It's like purpose driven. And so funny how that shifts as

[B]

you age, doesn't it?

[A]

Yeah. You're trying to make the most of what you have to offer and what you've accumulated. And so. But with that still said, I mean, if I go back to the Nike innovation days, when I got into first in the innovation group, you know, the through line again, here is I. I'm still learning and. But it weighs on me now that, you know, I didn't. I didn't know where I was. I. I mean, I don't know why. It's like the responsibility, like, you know, it makes me emotional for a minute. You know, I don't know why, but it's like. I think it's. That's that deep responsibility that I carry wherever I show up. Like, how do I. We smoke this to the highest level. You know, whatever it is, Life and death, best outcome, best product. And I. There's a shame part where I'm like, when I. I've been in some of the best places in the world and I felt like, you know, well, I'm. I'm here because, you know, I did these things I know these people. So there's a bit of an arrogance and confidence. But then I get checked later not by the people, because I, I don't come across arrogant typically.

[B]

I don't think so at all.

[A]

Thank you. And, and, and so I, but then something I look back on, I go, I didn't revere that place enough. I didn't do some more research to understand the normity of where I was, you know. Yeah, I didn't ask the right questions that, you know, what are the parameters here? Look at the unit. You know, I'm at the unit four or five years and like, you know, even though I'm in my late 30s to early 40s at the time or whatever, you know, I'm not a kid, you know, and I've been other places. I'm like, well, I'm in here delivering. I'm constantly crushing it, delivering impossible outcomes. And, and, and still I'm making mistakes, crossing lines that I didn't know, Invisible lines that weren't. They're invisible to me, but they're very clear for other people, you know, and Nike and it. When I, you know, when, when Kanye's. Another Netflix documentary came out called Genius, but it's spelled like Jesus kind of thing. And it was, it was after my main time with him that it came out. And I watched it because I'm always curious how other people are seeing individuals that I have deep insights on. And I watched it and I learned so many things about him growing up that I didn't know that I realized if I had asked certain questions to learn and understand who I was dealing with better, I would have probably given him more grace in certain situations. I probably would have have gotten more out of him in certain situations because I would have handled it with a more compassionate lens instead of two, two experts in their field clashing on ideas instead of me going, and, and so, and he's a force, you know, he. I mean, he's the most controversial human on the planet for the leverage he has next to Orange Man Bad, the two of them hold the most controversy, I think that might be in the world today, you know, or the ability

[B]

to inspire controversy at least.

[A]

And so, but yet I know hero stories about both of them, and I'm not making them a hero, but my responsibility is an aggregator of outcomes and results is I keep a file on everybody and everything, you know, that. That matters.

[B]

Actual file or in your head?

[A]

My head. You know, and that's why I say when I have this massive cognitive bandwidth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I Don't have total recall or anything crazy. But you know, like on the walk over here and I mentioned because, because I was at the pinnacle of Nike and I was at the pinnacle of JSOC, you know, 20 years ago, I watched all you guys come out of the community and follow your career paths and build your career paths. So here I was in industry, corporate industry, creative business. You know, Nike's the aggregation of everything of excellence, you know, of human performance, you know, soft goods, hard goods, technology, you know, the Olympics, the world championship sport, bread and circus to the highest degree. And then just doing business on a day to basis. We with bricks and mortar, direct to consumer. It's the aggregation of kind of everything in the business model. So here I am at the leading edge of that. And then I'm working with jsoc, which is the leading edge of military, government, clandestine stuff, all the things. And I've had those two lenses and a lot of access to leadership and shaping of those for 20 years. So then when I watch you or Glover or Two Lamb or, or John Lovell or any of these guys that came out and built good platforms, use their knowledge and history and do business, even Evan, you know, with Black Rifle, I watched everybody come out and do their business. And some of them I reached out to and go, hey, if I can help you in any way, I've been dedicated to your community for, you know, since the early 2000s, no cost. I mean, I will just sit down with you and whiteboard and strategize. Very few guys, because I wasn't from the community, like took me up on the offer and so that's unfortunate.

[B]

That's a little bit of ego and hubris getting in the way, I think.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's the vet bros kind of still don't know

[B]

what the hell that term means. It's definitely negative.

[A]

It's a click, you know, and it's negative.

[B]

But be like, oh, because people will call me a vet bro. I'm like, okay, what does, what does that mean? I was.

[A]

You're an outlier. You're an outlier.

[B]

I mean, I was a veteran, you know.

[A]

Well, there's certain groups that only play with their groups. Right. And then. And you know, like, we could go down a list of guys that have never gone on certain podcasts.

[B]

Yeah. They may not have gotten invited.

[A]

Well, and that may be true. You know, there's beliefs and you know, I'm not trying to throw gas on a fire. I'm just acknowledging again It's a. Yeah. It's an observation of data now, what the data means and the truth of it. I mean, there's a chapter in the book where if you're not on the table. Table. And you're not privy to the actual conversation, then you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Then you don't know what the actual intention is behind why someone is or isn't involved. You know, it could be. Well, I know. I just never talked to them. Love to have those guys in or on, you know, but sometimes it's that simple and sometimes it's more loaded. But, you know, so the Kanye stuff to me is like. He also. I. I touched on the. The language thing and the. And the dictionary thing. You know, know, he. While people would say he's very frivolous and callous and senseless with his words, but I. But I know what his heart is behind him, and I know where he's trying to go with it. He just doesn't articulate it well. Like an Elon comes in with a mission. He comes in with an objective. He's gonna. Elon's also gonna take something from that meeting that he didn't disclose that he came to take. He's a master.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chess player, if you will. You know, And. And he's moving, you know, how many companies does he have? He's influencing four different industries at the highest level in the world. You know, auto rockets, you know, battery development, you know, X. It's insane.

[B]

Is he taking a tunnel, too?

[A]

Yeah, it's kind of boring. You don't want to talk about that, but

[B]

pun intended. I get it.

[A]

So. Yeah.

[B]

You know what's interesting, though, too, is people forget that the assessments they're making of people. People. Is all based on what is publicly out there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of what these people actually say. Do think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's an incomplete data point at best. It's like, use with caution, at least. Or just remember, like you said, you're not actually at the table. You're seeing a clip. You're seeing something that's been repurposed. It might also be out of context. Some of these things don't actually have a context where it actually fits well. But whatever. But also, one mistake, I would hope, doesn't define an entire person's life. Because if I am you by my mistakes only. Oh, that's a rough one.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, same. You know, and. And we will be, you know, to be honest. You know, But I remember that when

[B]

I'm looking at other people though too because we all make mistakes. Empathy is a term I didn't understand as well in my younger years that I continue to try to put one foot in front of the other.

[A]

Right.

[B]

When did you start interfacing with. We'll just call it the military industrial complex. And I don't mean that negatively. That just can wrap in kind of like the Alphabet soup agencies and all the Miller. Were they just coming. Was it originally through Nike? Them showing up there and having.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hey man, you guys ever thought about doing this?

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, the beginning of it was I'm in the innovation group. Tinker's brother Toby had. Had been prototyping a boot boot again, shout out to now passed on Major Tony Oliver. He was a Ranger who was a senior guy in doing his own stuff out there, you know, as a guy in Afghanistan doing a lot of humanitarian stuff and interaction. And he was married to a woman at Nike that had been there a long time and interesting. So they were at a dinner party of some sort of sort and Tony ran into Toby and basically said, hey Toby, you know, and he had Nike freeze at the time. And he goes, you know, if you guys did something like this, it'd be great, you know, because our boots suck.

[B]

Classic beginning of the conversation, always.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Have you ever thought about using steel for laces instead of.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so Toby being the consummate innovator, you know, and Toby has been on just so many. You did the Michael Johnson, you know, golden shoe in the, you know, the Atlanta Olympics. And you know, he's been behind a lot of things. Those brothers Tinker and Toby have just been instrumental in the innovation and product creation of that company for, for 40 years, you know, plus I wish I

[B]

had that skill, man, I can't. I'm not a, I'm not a builder of physical things. I've never actually sat down and dedicated an immense amount of time to it. But as an example, like a buddy of mine I do jiu jitsu with made this table. I mean I might be able to figure it out over time. But he is somebody who is just a craftsman and understands wood and it is like in who he is. Yeah, I struggle with that aspect.

[A]

For sure. That's the hands on part. You're the. But you ideate like you're, you're as high a level ideator as anyone. Because I've, I don't know about that.

[B]

I have some really dumb ideas.

[A]

Well, but it takes a lot of ideas to have A good one, you know, and so. So the thing is, you're always looking for something that could be improved. I mean, I think that's again, in the nature of the JSOC community. It is for sure, like everything that you have your hands on. Because again, every time you go to work, if this was better, if this was lighter. So anybody that's come out of the tier one outcome, you put your life in the line every time you went to work and the guy next to you. And when you are under those demands, you every. You get out of bed naked and you're like, you're looking at every single thing as to what its value is on your body. Everything you're carrying, everything you're touching, everything you're using, everything that's connecting you.

[B]

Don't discount the thought, would it be better to live my day naked? Because you have those too. Do we need to wear uniforms on target or should we really go for it? You need to have those thoughts too.

[A]

I heard you were that guy that signed up for that mission on target, that nudist colony where you had to infiltrate that, you know, that terrorist.

[B]

I don't have the self confidence to do that. I would just. It would be. It'd be crushing for me.

[A]

It's funny, if anybody could pull it off though, you'd spend prosthetics.

[B]

What I love is, at least from that world is that, you know, just because it worked yesterday doesn't gonna mean it's gonna work tomorrow. And you could design the perfect thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And on the day you get like, this is perfect, by the time you go home that night that you're like, well, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I wonder, right? Yeah, well, and I mean that, that goes back to, you know, me being trained in the Nike way. Right. And those who went before me and built the world's largest sports company that think like that. And you know, it's. That's a fundamental, simple element that you just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pointed to because again, you're. You've been on the highest stage on the planet. Planet. So you can joke all you want. At the end of the day, you're made up of DNA that is of the pursuit of the highest excellence in an arena on this planet. That the list is so short of people that have ever got into that space. It's unbelievable. You know, people can't wrap their heads around it, you know, and it's in your nature, humbly, to make light of it and to make less of it. But it was just my normal.

[B]

So I'm not Used to people not having that experience, if I'm being honest, I think that's where that's fair. It's you. People will say, wow, it was amazing. Like, yeah, dude, but just. But also just another day at work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you're not. For me, at least I wasn't every day walking around in awe of the people that I was working with. That actually happens more now thinking that.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Or thinking back, kind of what I

[A]

was referencing about the reverence for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because now I have a deeper appreciation for. For sure.

[A]

What would.

[B]

If somebody asks you what you. You're in an elevator, right. You got four floors, you're going to go up. And they say, what do you do for a living? What's your elevator answer?

[A]

I mean, I laugh. First of all, I'm going to size up. Who's asking me. And I'm going to some random person

[B]

you've never met, like, hey, man, are you here for the conference? What do you do for a living?

[A]

No, I mean, I answer this in theme the same way every time. The answer is different. Different for every person that asked me because I'm not a bank teller. Right. Or a. You could be an auto mechanic. Yeah, I could be.

[B]

I tell people I make. I own a coffee shop. That's my answer now.

[A]

Well, and you do, so that's true.

[B]

It's easier, though, than. Oh, I do. I host a podcast. Oh, really? What's it called? What's it about? It's not that I don't want to talk about that, but if you're in a limited. I have to give them the answer that satisfies their equals, their curiosity. Then we can move on with life.

[A]

Yep. And you. So you're validating my. My description of like, I look. Who's asking me? Age, gender, how are they dressed? What's their style? You know, are there somebody. Is there a signal that I'm reading from them that, oh, they may have something that I want to, you know, engage with, you know, So I want this. A longer be a longer conversation. Where am I? What elevator am I in? Am I at Apple? Am I just in a hotel?

[B]

Well, I'm just here at the Marriott and Salt Lake Lake.

[A]

But this is. Yeah, exactly. Or the Red lion. But, you know, this is my brain. Right. Like, in a microsecond, you know, nothing is simple to me. It's like. That's the tism of, like, be more specific. Because too general of a question. I got to hone it in. But. And so the answer is always going to depend on the audience, essentially. And how does my answer serve that person? You know, do I want to give them something to take away or do I just want to tell them it's coffee shop? Because I really just want to move on to the next stop, you know, know.

[B]

Or it's just an elevator ride. You don't. It.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't actually have the time to answer in more depth because you are truly limited by the boundaries of your experience.

[A]

Yeah, but to answer, what the question is, I think you're asking is how do I define myself in general? You know, it's problem solver, and I've got to work with a lot of cool organizations and, you know, typically I do innovation or something like that, you know.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, because again, all accurate surface

[B]

level, but could go much deeper at all.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. It's signaling, like, do you want to know more? Is that sufficient? You know, And. And again, another chapter in the book is like, how to be seen or to be understood. There's a cost. And so how I choose, Do I let my beard grow for months and don't trim it, or do I shape it? It's going to affect a different audience or a different person on the street differently. Do I wear a hat? Do I wear a no hat? Do I wear it backwards? Do I want the light in my eyes? Do I want to be more. Just not. It's like everything is always running through my mind. It's like I want to be intentional with. With everything do, you know? And so. And with those thoughts, I can be provocative, I can be dismissive. I can be warm, I can be cold. You know, do I want to engage conversation? Do I want to answer in such a way as to shut down conversation and people hear the way I describe things? God, it must be exhausting to be in your head or whatever. And it's like. No, it's just. Just. It's just the. That's my program. You know, it's a computer isn't tired of running. It just is running, you know, and that's where I'm at on it. And so, you know, I want to come back to the supernatural because we talked about it, you know, with all the frequencies, you know, and we talked about Kanye, and we talked about the influence, and we talk about there's an energy that we don't see everywhere, all the time. Even, even, you know, solar energy is like, we're bombarded with radiation, gamma. So there is also a supernatural reality that is constantly going. And it also ties the thread of everything you said about the history of the world and, and what we're not taught in life is that there is supernatural. And, and, and so when we talked about my spirituality to a faith, you know, it, it. I had deep awareness of spirituality of a spirit world, you know, whether it's Native American, the Great Spirit or however you want to reference it, it. And there must be an architect, everything, because there's just an infinite amount of systems that work perfectly with each other that we can't even fathom how they all were created and how, you know, it's not just random, you know, and so unless it's a simulation and that less it's a simulation and still someone created that, you know, and that's even

[B]

more cool, you know, that's the one, man. You can lose your mind on that theory.

[A]

Yeah. And, and, and again, I can entertain the range and the limits. It's limitlessness of those conversations and have no emotional fatigue from it. It's something about it just, it just flows through me like a river moving and I'm just, it doesn't bother me at all. We can go for hours and people be like, four, five, six hours, like my brain's full, man. I gotta stop, I gotta tap out, I gotta go think about this stuff. And I'd be like, cool, all right, man. And I'm just like back to flatline and go get a coffee, you know. And it's like, but the things will stick and I'll reflect on the things that stick. And so that supernatural component, you know, one I had an event, you know, that was with a bunch of NSW guys and we were investigating some out of bounds stuff that they work on and, and nothing really happened that night of that. And you know, there's no drugs, no alcohol, no nothing involved. And, and at the end of the night, you know, a, you know, a spiritual type supernatural kind of occurrence happened, you know, and it blew my mind. And, and, and, and I've always had this God squad around me for about 20 years, even though I wasn't a God guy. And that's in the way they are faith guys. They've lived it, they've walked the walk, talk the talk. 20 years they've been successful, worth millions of dollars, run companies, they're not prone to alcohol and they're not adulterers and all these things are good men of which there aren't. The world's not full of those kind of examples, unfortunately.

[B]

More with that. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so, so, so I hold them in a high regard and and out of my friendship for 25 years, 30 years with them, they always said to me, hey man, if you want to know Jesus, you got to ask for it. And so I was like, whatever, man. You know, but out of respect, as I do with everything, as an aggregation of, of people I hold in high regard wherever they come from. I, I tab that. And every couple months for 25 years, I'd be like, all right, God. You know, because I'm working in the soft community, I'm like, you want me to be special forces for you? You gotta like give me some kind of mind blowing experience. You got to give me a burning bush moment. So I'm asking for it, as my buddies have advised me. Simple as that. Nothing complicated for 25 years. Because, you know, I'm a disciplined, persevering, endurance kind of athlete, you know, like, like not, not, not rigid, you know, I'm, I'm a most like spontaneous. I try to be spontaneous all the time and adaptive all the time. It's like part of my, my operating system as well. But, but things that matter, like, you know, I don't take any vitamins, I don't do any supplements, you know, 56, I'm pretty fit. I don't even work out regularly, you know, because I did that for 20 years, you know, 30, up to 30 hours a week. I trained a ton, so I have a good foundation. But at my age and you know, decent genetics or whatever, I just, just don't eat too much, don't drink too much, keep moving, you know, pretty simple formulas, you know, I'm not dogmatic. So, you know, 25 years goes by and I'm, I'm on my thing and I'm not looking for it. But then this particular night, you know, basically my burning bush moment happened and what I had said leading up to it, it was like, okay, God, whatever you are, if you're real, you want me to be special forces for you, just meaning like obsessively committed for your mission, then you're gonna have to give me something that blows my mind and only you know what it is because you're God, you're the creator. And, and I don't know what you're gonna have to do to tell me what it is. So it wasn't predictable. And this event happened with some NSW guys and some, some another dude that I've known for a while. And, and you know, I don't want to go into it, but it blew my mind. And, and basically you got what you asked for and I Wasn't looking for it. But then when it happened, I was like, like, I think that was it. And then what I'd said leading up to is like, if you blow my mind, I'll never turn my back on you. I'll never, like, you know, like, I'm signing on, like. And so when it happened, so, you know, here I am six years later. I've been through hell a few times, you know, and it never broke my faith, my belief, you know, whatsoever. I mean, I screamed and argued and cussed at God for like, you know, I would say things like, like, hey, you're the, you're the CEO of Existence and I'm. I'm an employee of your, of your organization. I don't know what the f is going on. I don't know what your mission is here. I don't know what my role is here. I'm frigging pissed. I'm tired. I punched the clock today. It's midnight. I'm going to sleep. I'm frigging pissed. I almost kind of hate you. But you know what? I'm not leaving the organization.

[B]

You're looking for the suggestion box?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Thank you. And I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to do espionage against the organization. I'm not going to go to the other side. I'll see you tomorrow, boss. I'm punching in tomorrow and I hope you can give me some better direction and clarity on what I'm doing. You know, so I had a lot of those nights where, you know, I was broken to the point of like, what is going on? You know, why? If I'm, if I'm a dude that's a servant trying to further the mission of this kingdom, why are you hanging me out? Why are you letting my life get smoked into the ground? You know why? Because it's. Because I'm making the bad decisions. I'm making my will, the focus instead of like the servant mindset. And so, so with all of that, you know, I, I can tell you I probably had 50 supernatural, mind blowing things that are unexplainable. And I mean, I stopped counting, you know, because I've spent like the last six years kind of being a problem solver in the counter trafficking world, you know, so like deliver fun that you're part of, you know, with Nick.

[B]

I'm not a part of. I'm just a fan.

[A]

Well, you support it. You know, it's like you, you, he's. Nick's been on the show.

[B]

Yeah. I just don't want to overstate, like, my involvement.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Support it from a distance. Just not directly involved and.

[A]

But you support the mission and against, you know.

[B]

Oh, I want to kill everybody that preys on children.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Every single one of them. But I also don't think I would like prison. So, you know, there's some. Some barriers and boundaries that are in front of me.

[A]

Totally. Yeah. And I mean, so in that walk, you know, and I have buddies from the community that have worked with Nick and done stuff overseas and, you know, locally and all that, and just, you know, or ARC or Mission Safe harbor, you know, the list is very short, in my experience, as an aggregator of what's the best out there, who's doing whatever.

[B]

Yeah, agreed.

[A]

You know, there's a thousand organizations claiming to make a difference, but I can honestly tell you my belief is there's less than. And, you know, maybe two hands, but definitely one that have incredible records and are totally mission focused, you know, and. And. And those are three, you know, that are a couple other I won't mention that are totally off the radar and they're doing crazy work like shutting down brothels and, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, big targets, you know, more or less. But what that took me into was that the depth of evil that. That's. That is associated with that. You know, first of all, it's ancient because it's a spirit. It's a. It's a supernatural desire. You know, it's a hunger. It's a. It's a. It's things that we don't really embrace as a. As a society of understanding, influences and energy and the emotional.

[B]

I think some people come out of the box broken, too.

[A]

Yeah, well, and that's a spirit, you know. I mean.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, whatever it may be. I think all those things you mentioned, the influence and all that, that is very, very true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I also think that there's just some people who are broken as well.

[A]

Yeah, well, yeah, unquestionably, you know, and I mean, the examples are everywhere. Robust in that regard. Yeah. I mean, everyone that's participating in that got broken at some point. You know, I would agree with that. It's a cycle, you know, for sure. But. But with all of that, it just ties back to when you see atrocities and you're aware of, you know, things that exceed horror movies that are done to. To, you know, humans, children especially, you start to realize that there's an evil in play, you know, And I mean, you know, the unit you were part of faces evil. That society really wouldn't even be able to wrap its head around the things you've seen. You know, the things that guys in the community have seen.

[B]

There's a danger to that exposure, though, too, for sure. And I. And I. The best analogy I have for this, not that I'm a tea drinker, but having watched people make tea enough. Right. They take it out and they put. Put the bag into the water, and if you just dip it in there a few times, it changes a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the longer it stays in there. And this is something that my. Some of my law enforcement friends, I think, struggle with just due to the nature of the job. And a lot of it is the repeat customers and almost a sense of futility. This is my words, not them, because they are dealing with the same things and the same people. The bag has been in the water for so long that they have lost the objectivity, and they think that everything around them in their world is the color of that water.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's not the case. If you spend too much time in those environments, it can color and paint your objective reality to the rest of the world. And I think there's an immense danger to that as well, too.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, our human capacity is still limited to how much exposure you can have to anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whether it's. I mean, even our bodies break down if we're exposed to radiation or. Or, you know, viruses, illnesses, you know, we. We have these all kinds of. There's a stasis where we're healthy and everything's in balance. And whether it's psychological input, emotional input, environmental input, something's going to break us down, you know, and we begin to break completely, you know, and so, you know, whether that's emotional or psychological, to your point, you know, the toxicity, exposure, we all have to remove ourselves from toxicity. No one's immune to it, essentially, you know. And so.

[B]

Well, it's easy to go from a place of thinking reasonably that evil exists to evil is everywhere and everything. And I don't know, I don't want anybody to live in a place that says evil doesn't exist because I just think that's ignoring a lot of objective reality.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But then on the other side of that coin is everything is evil and so is everybody. I'm not so sure that's the way to live life. Evil either.

[A]

No, absolutely not. I mean, if it was that, we would probably be fighting every day, like literally, physically. And there are environments where people have to. Yeah, they're under threat, you know, currently in this world today. There are living environments where it is dangerous to leave your home. It's dangerous. Somebody may come to your home, you know, in Africa or in the Middle east or whatever. And so that reality does exist and that evil is affecting those communities, you know, which is, again, part of what the military does is it tries to protect sovereignty around the world. When it gets. When it rises up, it's exposed, and it has to be dealt with on some level. I mean, we hate being the world police, you know, but. But as the freest country in the world and. And the country that has the most sovereignty per person and liberties, which are still under attack in all manner of ways, but. But.

[B]

And always will be.

[A]

Always will be. That's what I assume, you know, is kind of paramount to what led you into your life of service, other than the cool factor. You're saying you're 11 to be a

[B]

SEAL, but, yeah, I didn't understand those concepts at 11. I think maybe at a level in myself that I didn't understand, I would not have been able to articulate that nor understand the world at large. But maybe my particular tuning fork was aligned to that type of. Type of frequency, for lack of a better term, that draws that type of person to that totally.

[A]

I mean, you were put on this earth for a mission, you know, and. And the. And the path is to make coffee. Make great coffee, you know, the best coffee.

[B]

I didn't have my first cup of coffee Till I was 27. I would, because I. I take that back. I had a sip of my mother's Folger from, like, the old school red can. And I feel like she left it on the stove for about a week because my first sip off, I was like. And I just assumed that's what coffee was. So I'd be over. And this is before I had kids. I'd be overseas. I'm like, why are humans hovering around this mythical container that spits out fluid at a slow. An incredibly, painfully slow rate? Then they consume it all, and then they put it back. Like, what is going on here?

[A]

They're sticking their IVs in and brown bags sitting.

[B]

Three kids later, I'm like, putting my mouth underneath the espresso machine and just

[A]

like, yeah, you discovered it. You know, once you discovered it, you can't go back. The benefits are just amazing.

[B]

We have been at it for almost three hours. I want to finish by talking about your book. So did you ever think you were going to be an author, for one?

[A]

I mean, I didn't know that I would ever achieve the result, I guess it wasn't.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

I wasn't driven to do it. It wasn't a primary. But for a few years, because of the. The Forrest Gump nature of my career and all my friends that have observed it, and they're just like, you gotta tell your story, man. You gotta write a book, you know, which, you know, I'm sure you were told, and, you know, people that have interesting lives, like, share the story. So I had toyed with it and. And I mean, it's probably worth sharing how I. Because I was listening to you, like, wow. It was tedious and took months writing it, taking a week, but I enjoyed it.

[B]

I didn't know. Yeah, I really didn't find it to be tedious. I didn't have it like a looming wrong word.

[A]

Yeah, it was.

[B]

I enjoyed it. I've always liked writing, and not that I'm good at it, but it was probably the one class in high school that I. And it probably was more about my teacher. He was just super cool. I really like the. The English classes.

[A]

Got it. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's cool. And I mean, I just heard you reference, like, the publishing process and, you

[B]

know, the editorial reviews, the legal reviews, the formatting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean. Yeah. Getting the words on paper, not that hard. And then it dove into a world again even farther beyond what I had in understanding of. And it just seemed like it was never going to end.

[A]

See, And I had the exact opposite experience. And. And that's why I think it. I hate to let the cat out of the bag, but. But again, I think everybody deserves to tell their story because everyone's story is interesting in some capacity and it helps everyone relate to everyone. Right. Because that's what. That's why guys take their own lives. They think they're isolated. They think they're the only ones struggling with something. So the more people share their stories, you know, I know you're a huge advocate for, you know, the support of God, reaching out to your friends and reach. And just, you know, even being vulnerable. I mean, you were joking with Jocko about, like, sometimes you just call your buddy, hey, man, I love you, bro. I was thinking about, I do that now. And I do that. You know, and my bros do that. When they do that, I'm just reminded this is important. This is. Feels good.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, obviously you call him a dork and, like, hang up on him. I mean, you appreciate that they called.

[A]

Yeah. You can't get too squishy. Yeah. Shut up, nerd. Biatch. And so, but when I finally started to do this, the process, I mean, I'll just share the process because it's probably gonna, it's gonna flood the, the book writing world. So sorry, publishing house and whoever you

[B]

are out there, but times are changing.

[A]

They are. And that's, that's the fundamental of it. So, you know, I mentioned my anniversary today with Sybil and she. So we spent two months in Hawaii. You know, my hat, McCullough Jones, you know, he, he passed away a couple years ago. He was a legendary surfer. North, North Shore surfer, kind of innovated catching himself in barrels with GoPros and, and his whole mission in life was not. He wasn't a competitive surfer, but he could have been, you know, he's great surfer, you know, legend on the North Shore where he grew up and he basically would go seek waves where there was no one and you know, and basically be alone on a beach in a barrel and captured amazing footage, you know, so, so he made his name not because he wanted to make his name, it was more like his passion. You know, he didn't care about the, any notoriety about it. It was just his purpose and so. But he also believed that the sharper his fins were on his board, the better he could carve and you know, corn, you know, make turns. So he unfortunately had a surfing accident and cut his femoral and.

[B]

No way. Way.

[A]

And you know, it was on, on and it was a pedestrian trip. It wasn't like he was on like a vacation.

[B]

Yeah, but yeah, the femoral is not a pedestrian thing.

[A]

Absolutely not. You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, rest his soul. Amazing guy. And, and you know, so my fiance knew the family for the last 20 years. She came out of the surf industry and you know, and, and, and basically so we went and stayed at, at his house, you know, on the North Shore, on the, on pipeline and with his, his, his, his wife and daughters for two months and, and you know, she, she just started, she had done a, a retreat, you know, and I don't think I'm saying too much, but I guess it's an encouragement for people to like go. And some people benefit from psychedelics. Psychedelics. Yeah. And, and you know, basically the experience kind of, I won't go into the detail, but it grounded her back into like living her life, like feeling like she made connection with him and that he, he made it clear for her that it was time to move. Like it was okay to go back to living her life and not mourning as, as heavily as she had because they were, you know, they fell in love and had an amazing life and their daughters are incredible, you know, via Violet and Bella. And, and so we got to stay there and, and my girl, she is just like, man, she grinds hard, works hard, you know, and we got there, we're on this house on the beach on North Shore. And I think Sybil didn't leave the house for the two months. I mean, we had social gatherings, she has a whole community and, and it was a beautiful time. Maybe three times we went out for walks for a couple hours, but. And you know, we had a gym in the garage. So I was using my time. I got my admin stuff done, first couple weeks and, and then I found myself like, wow, I got all day to, to not do anything and she's just grinding. She's building operating systems for, you know, tem Media, which, which she does a lot of advisory for female, you know, founders and things. And, and so I was like, you know, maybe I should try to work, write my book. You know, we're going to try to be here for another couple weeks or maybe a month. I got, I'm waiting for this call to go to Nike and work on this innovation project that I'm on. I should do something with my time that's constructive. And so last year I had, I had challenged myself to do short story videos on LinkedIn. And so, you know, because people kept, you got to tell your stories. So I created kind of a, I don't know, a stage, if you will, like a repeatable format. I'm going to get in my, my truck, I'm going to have my phone, you know, on the, on the mount in the same place every time it's quiet, you know, I'm moving on the move a lot. This is a consistent place I can go and record something. It's not ideal environmentally, but I can make it repeatable. So, so I started recording a couple videos and be like, hey, you know, and just sharing a story about a process. You know, I tried to have a lesson that I learned and focus on where I learned it and then who. So I had a bit of a formula. You know, haven't done this presentation stuff for a while. So I, and I didn't care what reach it got. It was just more or less again to try to put something out there and see what kind of response it gets. And so over the next two or three months I ended up doing about 50 videos. And so, so total of it was about 600 minutes essentially. So I had about 10 hours of story. And at some point I thought, well, I should be able to use this for something. You know, now I've done the work and kind of memorialize this.

[B]

You know, it's on a format of some kind or a medium.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. If I die tomorrow, my kids could watch these videos and hear stories that they never heard before. So at least it's of some value on a minimal level. You know, it didn't get a ton of views on LinkedIn or anything, and I didn't care, care. But it did land me a couple clients, you know, because I, I got called by somebody who's like, hey, I've been following you for a few years on your. I didn't have any idea. I saw your video. This story really resonated with me and I just wanted to talk to you for an hour and see if you're really who you are on the videos. And, and so we talked for an hour and then he basically goes, that's, that's market Motive Labs is one example. And he's like, because he's working with JSOC and he's working with DARPA on, on science stuff. And, and so literally after the one phone call, he's like, okay, well, give me your, your Venmo or give me your, you know, routing number. I'm going to send you money and let's, let's start working together, you know, let's see where it leads. So basically, mission accomplished on, on getting a new client, which again, wasn't the total objective, but it's led to a fantastic relationship and it took me back into a world on a different way that I had, you know, previously been on. And so anyway, I'm in Hawaii and I'm basically, I'm watching her on her computer 12 to 15 hours a day. She wakes up and, and, and just, and she grew so much in her AI knowledge and her prompting with LLMs that, you know, that's a whole other podcast conversation. You know, she went art form in and of itself. Yeah, sorry, she, she, she went from, you know, she's, she's been a serial entrepreneur, you know, her whole adult life. Her ex husband and her shaped the, the, the storytelling of the surf world. So they, they came up with Kelly Slater and Rob Machado and everybody. And, and so, you know, Sybil kind of ran all the operations and made that a stable company that was scalable and successful. And her husband was kind of the, the video creative kind of, you know, and they, they have a tequila company now. They still own Sweet co founder kind of thing. But watching her grind so hard was like, why? What am I doing? You know, kind of thing back to like, I need to be somebody that. That is working as hard as I can to be the person I need to be for the person I'm in a relationship with. And so.

[B]

Yeah, because the person you found deserves it.

[A]

Exactly. Yes. And so I basically decided, hey, I wonder if I just transcribe these videos, you know, that what the story is. So, you know, I'm not into spending money on things for the sake of just burning it. So. So I did the research. I ended up with Turbo Scribe, which is like free for. For three transcriptions every 24 hours. I'm like, well, this is good enough. And I do three videos. So here's the X factor. That. Here's the. Here's the cheat code. And Kanye used to say to me, and so did the agency director. Kanye would say, you know, everywhere you go, you figure out the codes. Like, you know, you get into. You get into the cracks. Like, you figure out how things work. Agency guy was like, you know, Justin, I could put you probably in any organization on the planet in 30 days. You could write me a. Write me a roadmap on how this organization works.

[B]

Yeah, because you're out there peeking around,

[A]

who are the instruments, you know, who's slowing it down? Who's making it faster? And so, so rewind back to last summer. You know, Sybil was going to Greece for a month because she'd planned this trip with her daughters that had graduated high school. And, you know, they had a whole trip planned in Europe. And so we were going to be apart for a while. So. So I decided, let's.

[B]

This.

[A]

We're going to do all this digital communication, texting and whatever, and. And, you know, we're going to be a part. I'm going to take everything we're doing. And along the way, everybody was like, your guys's love story is crazy. You know, this crazy radical liberal feminist and, you know, you, who, whatever, box, whatever, you know, you're everything that her people are not, you know, so to speak, which they all love me now that they've seen the other side open the aperture. But so we started. Basically I just opened a chat GPT, you know, account, and for both of us, we were just both going to pour into it. You know, hopefully they don't shut all this down because, like, they're not supposed to use these things this way. But I think you'll be okay. It's all out of Bounds, Right. Yeah. And so we basically, I started taking every screen, screenshotting and cut and paste and copy and pasting every communication that we had and putting it into a chat chat account. And then when we would have communication breakdowns, I would use chat to give me an assessment of what happened here. Where did it break, why did it break? And then I would wrestle with it for an hour because my brain works like chat GPT. My friends kind of call me Justin GPT in a lot of ways because I'm got this very.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Robotic processing that's hyper analytical and objective, you know. And so, and so over the, over the next six months, we evolved to putting everything in our life through ChatGPT. And so me being highly, deeply analytical to understand everything, working better, how it works better. I could spend an hour or two a night debating Chat GPT to, to granularize myself as to like, what am I doing here? What are the motives? Why do this? How would I articulate that, break this down, where I did this with this person and what were. Why. What was I thinking? Thinking? And ultimately I'm still. It's still, you know, it's playing to the choir, right? It's still basically, is it telling me what I want to hear? It's on me to be objective. You know, it's garbage in, garbage out, you know, and so I have to be hypercritical about looking for a no objective analysis. In the end, it. By the end of the year, you know, she and I agreed it had become the best therapist we'd ever. We'd both been to therapy plenty of times as divorced, you know, married people and, you know, all that because we could pry into nuances with the whole of the Internet behind it to understand things on a level we could never get with anyone else because it is objective. If we don't like where it's going or it says, wow, you're frustrated. No, I'm not frustrated. You're just not being accurate or clear. Oh, you're right. You know, stop asserting that I am. Stop projecting an emotion where there is none, because it's not perfect. Productive. Thank you. You're right. Let me be clinical with this. You know, and, and so for me, in my brain, it's like the best tool ever. But so through almost seven months of that, we, we evolved to running our companies through it. Every strategy we, we record, every business meeting, we transcribe it, run it through. You know, we might run it through Claude or, you know, Diff Gro. We now use different LLMs for different, different value adds. You know, they each have different strengths, but they all have. Drift is the term.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so what I had realized is, and we, we would even use it in a, in a meeting on a project to do, do profiling on, you know, why people communicate. That we do. Now how do we frame something better for the next meeting so that this person, it's accelerated so that they get the point easier if they're complicated, you know, individual, because most eccentric performers have some weird communication nuance to them if they're really good at what they do as a techie or an artist. So what I didn't realize until this was done is that I had this tool now that knows me better than anyone and, and has, and, and I've even pushed it to put things in my language, my tone, understand my subtext. Where does it come from? It knows my whole business history. I've, I've worked, worked warfare strategies against companies that I've been in. Like having to dismantle, you know, like everything that has a crazy amount of knowledge on me. So then when I uploaded, I had the transcription, I put it in chat and I go, okay, this is this many words, you know, this is kind of what I need to target for a book. Take everything you know about me and add color to this story from this video transcription. And so I, I, it would give me an edit. Now it's proclivity is to condense, not expand. And its proclivity is to assume because it's trying, you know, that's how it,

[B]

you can control those, the little knobs though, right?

[A]

All of it. Yeah.

[B]

But it was basically, it was putting the leaves on the branches for you.

[A]

It will always drift, you know, and so that's the exercise. So in the end, you know, it basically wrote me a bulk expansion of my video transcripts. And then, you know, I went through the thing 200 times and rewrote sentences and re edited it. But it did the heavy lifting, you know, in the sense of just making it fuller, but it was using it on all my stuff. It's in my tone. So when I sent this thing out to my friends as a PDF, as I sent to you early on, they were all like, wow, like what? Really well written. Totally sounds like you, you've told me half of these stories, you know, so, so the validation that my editing had made it very accurate to my, my, my, my reality was easy, you know, anything that needed to be reframed, I did. So it's, you know, in the end it's all my work, I, I had to touch every word and every formatting step. But in the end I did this whole thing in two weeks and well, well, yeah, you had the videos, you had the other stuff.

[B]

The final product spit itself out in two weeks. Yes, it's a lot more front end work. I have no issue with people using these tools like this because they are a tool and the times people are changing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Use them or don't, it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, it's able to do that because of the vast amount of time you put in for inputs.

[A]

I mean had you skipped that, let

[B]

me tell you right now, the book you would have gotten would have been like, what did you say? Robot overlord.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. No, for sure. And you know, so yeah, it's like

[B]

it's, it's not dishonest to say that it's two weeks.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You, you put one piece of pie on the table. Well, it's a whole other piece that's right there too.

[A]

And why I'm happy to share this. Right. Is I mean I've done the same work for other former NSW buddies that have done high. You know, again, I'm giving you the cheats right now on the, on the web web. AJ James, you know aj, no, you know, great guy, ran trade it, you know, for a while, you know, came in the teams late from Trinidad. He was an active valor, you know that stuff. But been a close friend for 20 plus years, you know, like a family member. And, and he had done a long podcast, long form, five hours on transition podcast tells his whole life story, you know. So I just said for an example example, in 40 minutes I transcribed his, his, his podcast and then it was 102 pages in transcription and then I put it in my chat and I said use everything that you, you did for my book, every rule that I created, every lock that I made for my tone, now apply it to him. And so it took 40 minutes to transcribe it because it was a big file and I'm just working out in the garage and I just did it because this is stuff I do for my friends.

[B]

Forget on that stuff too, too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So then in the next 20 minutes I based chat, wrote it, gave me a ch. I said now take this transcription and give me 19, give me a ch. Define what it the content in chapters. It gives me 19 chapters with a sentence for each one. And defining him like this looks good.

[B]

And then I skeleton. Let's put some muscles on it.

[A]

Yeah. Then I wrote and then I Said now give me chapter one. And, and, and then I, in the next 25 minutes, I just copy and paste it, pasted to notes to him. Here's your book. Now write the forward and write the epilogue or you know, whatever the exo outro. And you know, and then go through it, make it yours, and just use it as a calling card, you know, because it tells your story. If nothing else, it's a coffee table for your book, a coffee table book for your kids to know your story. You know, if something happens to you

[B]

and you can go print one on Amazon, it'll be like, you know what I mean? You don't have to do anything with this.

[A]

Yeah. And so that, that, that exercise for me was, you know, and then I just knocked out the COVID with my design, my, my ghetto design skills, which took me an hour. And, and what do you think?

[B]

Okay, so somebody who would want to read this book, what would they get out of it?

[A]

Well, it's anybody who's facing complex problems in ambiguous environments with high stakes.

[B]

Who is doing that right now though, you know, I mean, that's true. True.

[A]

Nobody.

[B]

Well, let's go the opposite.

[A]

I've only sold five of them, you know, to my family.

[B]

And let's go the opposite of that. How about everybody?

[A]

Yeah, well, and, and so, so, you know, I ended up using 20 out of 50 videos to that filled this book.

[B]

Yeah. Because you have to have a second book, obviously.

[A]

So then there's a book two coming easy. But you know, and then I put all the videos that you know. So the goal, as is explained in the book. Book was because I'm transparent. That's why I'm telling the story because it's like I want every. I want to rise all ships with the tide. Right. And most innovation is not rocket science. It's not neurosurgery. It's.

[B]

I like to combine those two. I say it's not rocket surgery, it's

[A]

not neuro rockets or something.

[B]

Yeah, like, I'm not a rocket surgeon, people. I don't know how to do this.

[A]

I don't know, you might surprise yourself.

[B]

You know, do rockets need surgery?

[A]

Take your toolbox box over there. You know, I mean, I'm pretty sure

[B]

I got break a rocket.

[A]

Absolutely. You know, but I basically explain in there that the raw download of the stories is on a YouTube channel that I just put together under the same name, you know, Innovators Handbook. And then you can go and watch those. Which gives you a tone, a pause, body language, you know, how is it coming off, you know, where it's. It's just off the cuff stuff. I recorded every one of them in one take, so there was no edits. I just didn't care. Kind of like you coming in here and going, hey, I roll out of bed and I do my job. I love it.

[B]

I don't do edits either.

[A]

And so there's that. And then the book is the next example. And then obviously, we're touching on different stories. There's different levels of detail and context in, in this form. Yeah. So whether whatever I'm saying about Kanye or the unit or, you know, Nike Key, there's stuff in that video content, there's stuff in the book, there's stuff we're talking about. They all aggregate into the same reality of something that was a catalyst, something that was an outcome. And, and that's the goal really, is just to share a way of thinking. Just like I'm telling this story of like, a book doesn't have to be a three to six month daunting process. In fact, so what we started doing Sybil and I, you know, because she's like, well, you know, she's super proud of me. She loves the book. She. Everybody has been really supportive in saying, wow, this really captures you incredibly. Like, you just, like, it captures the way you think and it captures the way you attack these problems and the way you show up and are of service. So I feel good. There's. And it's funny when you say going through legal, it's like, you know, I sent a copy to. To Phil and it went through Nike, and they're like, no changes, you know, so it was like, validation that, you know, I'm not full of crap and I'm not embellishing something. And then going on Brent Tucker's podcast, first, the. The idea was, well, I'm. I put Delta Force on the COVID I asked him like, should I send a copy of this to the unit? And he was just like, I don't think it's a problem. You know, he didn't say that.

[B]

Only if you want to hear back 24 months later.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You know, but. But at least sitting with him. Yeah. You know, we. We could go in detail on certain things that are validating to, like, you know, there's no, you know, procedures in there. It's just my experience, you know, and

[B]

so where can people get it? This is the most important part.

[A]

Amazon only, you know, for now, just Straight Innovators Handbook.

[B]

Right on Amazon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that in and of Itself is wild. We pulled up the other day a, a video of the Amazon direct to publish and how the machine was spitting out a different book. Like books were just like. But if you take a look at it, it's like Innovators Handbook, Anarchist Cookbook. Like not that those two should be purchased together. It was just like thick book. I mean it was. Times are changing. Yeah, times are a changing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah they are. And I mean again, everything's a new, new, it's a new frontier, you know, brave new world, so to speak. And if you're not using the tools to the best of your ability and learning how to integrate them into your life, you're going to be left behind. You know, and even my buddies on the, on the sharp point of Nike Innovation, there's seasoned designers that do things old school way. They're art center graduates and they're the best in the world at what they do. And then there's kids coming into the group that are using the tools that Nike's investing in to stay on the leading edge.

[B]

Edge.

[A]

And it's already like becoming apparent that wow, you know, these new tools with used, with experience and excellence are force multiplier. You know, they're an accelerator.

[B]

So much more information. I mean the reality is like you said, you're reaching out into almost all known knowledge. You can have the best person at the world at one thing, but then you can layer it. How about let's take the hundred other people who are close to you, right? Tap into their knowledge and in the aggregate get. We might be doing okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What would you use Chat GPT for versus Claude? Like how do you separate those two?

[A]

Well, I mean I think Chat Claude is a little more, I think it's a little more clinical, it's a little more maybe drier. A little drier. You know, it's better.

[B]

Equal capabilities different.

[A]

I mean equal, you know, on the surface. But you know, if you're going to do coding or vibe coding or something like that and you want better like kind of engineering, kind of dev stuff, I think it's, it's better for that, you know, for like research. For research. Well, I mean Chad has this deep research function now again, I, I find that they each come back with a little different, you know, even perplexity. If you've used that, you know, that's great because everything it uses to give you a result, it gives you reference points, you know, like Chat didn't used to do that. So Chat's a evolved. I just feel like, and I don't I'm not a big fan of open AI or you know, its founder and you know, the complexities and the mess of the whole beginnings of, you know, with Elon and everything else and the intent that it was started with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have evolved and changed as most things get revealed that the good intentions weren't maintained. You know, even Google do no evil or whatever. And.

[B]

Yeah, good luck with that.

[A]

Yeah. You know, it's.

[B]

How about marketing type stuff. Would you go like creativity marketing, helping people maybe put. If they have a skeleton of an idea, maybe put some tendons and muscles on there. Would you go chat or Claude for that?

[A]

I, for me, I'm still a chat fan because I feel like. And maybe it's just because I've invested so much into chat that I've developed an ecosystem with prompts and I know what well and I know it well and it knows me well. So I'm no longer.

[B]

You can import memory from one to the other. You could teach Claude everything that chat has learned about you.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean my, my, my lady does that. You know, she's, she uses one to write one thing in code and vibe code and, and gets them against each other and Grok and. Yeah. I mean the possibilities and combinations are endless and anything that I'm doing is my opinion. Right. And so, so, you know, somebody else could be sitting at the table and make an excellent case for doing everything in opposite. I'm doing. You know. And again, mine is an aggregation of a lot of reps and a lot of investment into one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I'm also not interested in reinvesting at this time into another platform to learn everything that I can get out of it. To be honest. You know, again, it's back to that, you know, how much time and energy do we have and everything. And it's like if you're getting a positive result, result. And because I have her, that's challenging all these things and what's amazing with her. And again, I was just in a heavy, heavy, like existential conversation, you know, at Nike about people feeling very emotionally threatened, you know, are confronted, you know, with the changes that are happening in our world very fast. You know, Moore's law of acceleration and multiplication is, is, is nothing like it. I mean, it's just exponential now, you know, and so it's all happening faster than it was predicted. You know, I mean, there was a time where Kurzweil was saying, you know, the singularity is going to be 2030 or 2045 or whatever. And now Everything's. The timelines are shortening and you have CEOs and founders from Google, or not founders, but leadership from those organizations leaving, you know, doing the podcast circuit and talking about. I had to leave because, you know, the ethics that we had put in place were not being followed. And as soon as I know as, you know, person, you know, behind the curtain of Oz, that person speaking, that once we crossed that threshold, there was no going back. And now I'm going to go get my house in order because I, I know where this leads, at least where we thought it was going to lead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's hard to deny those data points. Again, we weren't at the table. I'm not a alarmist, but I am. You know, another thing I wanted to touch on was we talked about data, we talked about your point about, you know, all the Epstein files. It's like it's an aggregation of a ton of. It's. It's a bunch of information being released, but there's no prosecution or arrest happening on scale. There's a few. But what the truth of that is also is that, you know, know, having known a lot for a long time and, and having met a lot of people that I sit down with as experts, out of bounds, that have known a lot for 20 or 30 years. So the, so the truths that are coming out that people are, my, Their minds are being blown open. They're like, wow, you kind of mentioned this, you know, to me last year, two years ago, like, how did you know this stuff? And I'm like, I know people that have known this stuff for 30 years, you know, and I don't know how they knew it 30 years ago, but they, you know, so, so the truths or the, the, the friction points of these realities have been making friction and smoke, you know, smoke doesn't create my guys, my team of guys from your world that I rely on. You know, we have a phrase that when we look at all these things that are unimaginable and we try to track them and we try to understand how do we get involved to make a difference. Well, there's definitely smoke there. And so smoke doesn't come from nothing. Smoke comes from something. But smoke can come from a smoldering little cigarette butt that got thrown on the side of the road. And a forest fire can create a little smoke and be burning, raging like crazy, you know, and then a whole range in between. So once we know there's smoke, we know there's something. We just don't know what the something is.

[B]

And the size, scope and scale.

[A]

Yeah. And what I, what I have to tell our civilian, you know, people that are overwhelmed by these things of why aren't the authorities enforcing or you know, know, hanging these people is like, you know, what I've appreciated about the soft community, you know, for a long time is that you mentioned it like you would put into the ground every one of these perpetrators of crimes against children, you know, and, and so there's no, I, I know no shortage of individuals that would put their lives on the line to save or end, you know, these crimes, save people from these crimes. What there isn't is a bunch of target packages with correct. The right evidence gathered. And so while people can pick their least favorite politician or their least favorite celebrity and say there's all this circumstantial evidence around them. Look at this video. Look what they said here, look what they did there. Why doesn't somebody just go take them out? It's like, well, I know a lot of people that would be happy to do that even legal, legally and, but not legally too, under the guise of like, justice needs to be served. But they would still be like, I need an irrefutable target package. And there's people out there in the world that are for hire, you know, that do these things, you know, for even, you know, the intelligence community. But there is a rigorous amount of evidence that's gathered. And so all I can say to them is like, I'm 100 with you on, on the justice that needs to be served. But I, while I agree with you on the surface that these are bad people doing bad things, even popular people that, that are still on, on screens today, getting away with whatever they get away with. I'm like, I don't get emotionally attached to what I think they're doing because I don't have the evidence. And so my opinion is irrelevant because again, once there's an evidence package, I mean, I know the FBI gathered vehicles full of evidence, hard evidence, pre deep fakes, pre AI manipulation from Epstein's island, you know, I mean, a mountain of evidence. And it's clear that he was a, a multi agency, you know, tool for, you know, the intelligence community.

[B]

I think he was just laundering money for them. I think he was the mechanism that allowed money to travel from one place to the other. And they probably knew what he was up to and allowed him to do it because it served their end state.

[A]

Yeah, that for sure. You know, I mean there's a number of things he absolutely did and. But why it's not, you know, this disclosure stuff. A lot of times things that are

[B]

files we need released are the agency files, not the FBI.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. For sure. Yeah.

[B]

So, anyway, look, where can people find. I'll get you out of here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where can people find you?

[A]

LinkedIn is probably my best filter. I hate to say it, but, I mean, I have an Instagram, but, you know, it's just more or less to communicate with friends. I'm sure it'll get a little fuller now, but just your name on LinkedIn. Yeah.

[B]

All right. Which will be in the episode title.

[A]

If you're. If I'm worth finding, you'll find me is kind of how I look at this. I'm not.

[B]

I can appreciate that.

[A]

Not trying to get any. Not trying to get any more, you know, known than I need to be.

[B]

What do you want to leave it with? Close it out?

[A]

I mean, I would just encourage everyone to find a faith. You know, What I. What I've come to realize is there's two kinds of people in this world. There's people that don't believe in anything beyond them. Supernatural, higher power. And they're kind of closed off to there being a higher power. Are. So it's hard to get someone like that to think that there's a greater purpose in the world, that there's a. There's a greater being, that there's something behind all of this in a. In an unseen way. So if you haven't entertained that, you're probably not going to be receptive to seeing the magic and the special things that happen around you as being beyond explanation and supernatural. But once you. Once you, you know, branch into the supernatural of. Of things and the reality and like the magic and this and the spirit and I personally have arrived, like, I don't really. I'm. I'm not here to condemn or judge what your path is. My belief has become that, you know, I. I serve what I consider the Almighty and, you know, and I'm a servant kind of disciple of that in a very clean way. Not a religion. And I believe if that's the. If I'm on track with the ultimate high power, that high power, if that high power did create everything and does see everything and orchestrate everything to some degree. Degree, they can jump into that person's channel, whatever they believe, and steer them where they want to be steered. But if you're not even open to it, if you're totally shut off to a signal that's beyond. Yeah, beyond the norm, beyond the scene, then things can Bounce around you that are happening, that are special and unimaginable. But you're like, that's just swamp gas. Oh, that's just the burrito eight last night, you know, Know. So I just encourage people to, to look for something beyond themselves and meditate, pray. Because in this world where we're under so much conflict and threat and challenge and there's a lot of division and there's a lot of denial and there's a lot of emotional triggering and people get upset. What we have observed, my, my, my, my, my lady and I is that, that, because this was all kind of new thinking to her, my operating system, if you will. And she's embraced it. Like, you know, I'm surrounded by men that want to protect and want to serve and want to defend women. Sorry. They want to defend women, they want to defend children. They're defenders, they're protectors. And many of them have a faith in something greater than themselves. And what she's seen in the world, world of a different type of operating system, a little more, you know, a lack of faith. They're focused on themselves. You know, they're, they're not servants, they're not. Or they're self servant, they're self serving, you know, and so steering people toward getting into a faith and a meditation and a prayer opens the door for feeling connected to something greater. And you know, if you believe in something greater than all this noise and all this friction and all this conflict, then you trust that there's there, there's a mission in all this and you know, we're going to get to a better place and it may even get worse before it gets better. But ultimately if, if you have faith, if you have faith in something greater than yourself and faith that people are inherently good and the world isn't full of evil, it is has evil in it, then you're probably going to sleep better, you're probably going to be less reactive to things, you're probably going to lead with compassion and you're probably going to hear people's opposing views to your own with a better posturing that hey, you know, this person's not my enemy, you know, like I'm pro humanity. You know, I don't care what your gender, your ethnicity, your geography is. I don't understand why humans aren't aligned, you know, and that's, that's another conversation for another show. But so when it comes down to what I believe in, what I, what I stand for and who I serve, it's like humans, you know, kind of a thing. And so, you know, that. That would be my parting hope, is that see each other as human. See each other as like. Like we're all struggling through this high friction environment right now that the media continues to spin and throw gas on and all these things. So thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it.

[B]

Thanks for making the trip. I'll get you on the. I know you got a little drive ahead of you. We'll get you on the road, load you up on some caffeine, of course, but right on. Yeah. That was awesome.

[A]

Thank you, thank you.