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- [00:00]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [00:28]
Rachel Zoe
Card has no cash access and expires.
- [00:29]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [01:01]
Danielle Dubois
Sail to breathtaking destinations in Alaska or Europe with Disney Cruise Line. Discover where onboard magic meets onshore adventures, where beloved characters Hiya pal. Meet alluring landscapes, where Broadway quality shows meet historic cities, where imaginative dining meets amazing wildlife, and where exciting experiences await the whole family. Book an adventure filled summer Disney cruise to Alaska or Europe.
- [01:30]
Rachel Zoe
My dad works in B2B marketing, but I never really knew what that meant. Then one day my dad came by my school for Career day and told everyone in my class he was a big Roaz man. Then he just kept saying things like the bigger the Roaz the better.
- [01:46]
Danielle Dubois
Over and over.
- [01:47]
Rachel Zoe
My friends still laugh at me to this day. I think it means calculating a return on ad spend. One thing's for sure, I'll be known as the Roaz man's kid for the rest of my days.
- [01:59]
Ryan Seacrest
Why couldn't you just be a fireman or a lawyer?
- [02:02]
Whitney Tingle
Why?
- [02:03]
Ryan Seacrest
You ruined my life, dad. Not everyone gets B2B, but LinkedIn has.
- [02:08]
Rachel Zoe
The people who do.
- [02:09]
Ryan Seacrest
And with ads on LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people based on job title, industry, likelihood to buy, and more. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. We'll even give you $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com customer to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com customer. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to be.
- [02:39]
Whitney Tingle
Hi everyone, I'm Rachel Zo and you're listening to climbing in heels for your weekly dose of glamour, inspiration and of course, feeling fun. Before we get into our amazing interview today, I want to take a minute to acknowledge the incomprehensible devastation and deeply, deeply rooted fear that's covering my hometown of Los Angeles. I am one of the very, very lucky ones and incredibly grateful that at this time my home is safe. My children and myself have remained totally safe. But there are so many people and families that have lost everything. Many, many that I know. Closest friends of mine, closest friends of the kids, really, countless, countless others that lost everything they own in their entire lives that simply cannot afford to in any way rebuild, recover and don't have safe places to go. So I really just want to encourage anyone listening if you're able to please donate to baby 2 baby. I've been on the board from the beginning. It is the most extraordinary organization I know, where every dollar goes. I promise you it's all going to help these babies and children and families that are suffering so deeply. They're working actively across LA to provide families with basic essentials. Diapers, formula, clothing, wipes, hygiene items. Or please donate to the Los Angeles Fire Department, lafd who, as you've seen on tv, on your socials, who are working tirelessly to put these fires out and keeping everyone safe. Our hearts are with all our first responders who we can never, ever thank enough. We love you so much, LA and please keep everyone here in your hearts. So today I am joined by the powerhouse female best friends behind Sakara Life, a whole food, nutrition and supplement brand for your body, skin and mind. Danielle Dubois and Whitney Tingle were childhood friends that began their incredibly successful business out of their very tiny New York City kitchen in their very tiny apartment. I don't even think it was a full kitchen. It was a kitchenette. I know from personal experience how amazing and delicious Sakara Life Food is and have used their meal service several, several times for my entire family. It does not feel like starvation, it does not feel like a diet. It feels like just delic healthy food. You are never hungry and it's such a treat if you can try it even once to set yourself on a great healthy routine. Danielle and Whitney have continued to grow their brand to monstrous proportions. I cannot believe how big they are and have a cookbook and a podcast and I know it's only the beginning for these amazing young women. So let's jump right into in. I'm very happy to see you guys. I feel like I've known you for a long time, like I feel like I've known you since you started.
- [05:52]
Rachel Zoe
Thank you.
- [05:53]
Whitney Tingle
You know, and now I've been the, like, lucky recipient of sakara so many times in my life. Like, if I come off, like a huge stretch of work and I'm feeling really burnt out or like I was sick, and I just feel like I need to nourish myself. I just love sakara because you're never hungry and everything. Just like, the food's so good. And then I, I love what you guys started. And I want to go back a little to the beginning, but I, I, I feel like was monumentally different and better than, than what has existed in the space of, you know, drink this huge bucket of, like, cayenne chili pepper or whatever when people needed to, like, reset and feel. So I want to talk first about, you know, just briefly, like, how did this even happen? Because, you guys, you know, there's a lot of stories of, you know, founders that were, like, best friends in, you know, college or, you know, started this out of their room or whatever. So I want to know a little bit about how you found each other first and foremost, and how many, how many years ago that was because it's, you know, it's not always the happy ending of, you know, besties that start things together.
- [07:14]
Danielle Dubois
Well, Danielle and I grew up together in Sedona, Arizona. Have you been to Sedona?
- [07:19]
Whitney Tingle
Yeah, I actually have. I've been there twice. I mean, it's beautiful. It's like Red Rock.
- [07:26]
Danielle Dubois
Lots of spirituality. Lots of people coming from all around the world seeking different forms of healing. There's lots of different healing modalities there. Nutrition being one of them, using herbs and superfoods and mother nature really to help. Before my parents moved there in 76, Danielle's grandparents, I think, right around the same time, in the 70s. And so we grew up together there we met. I was the new girl in school. I switched schools in seventh grade and in my first period math class, you know, my very first class, I come in and I sit down and this girl sitting in front of me, she leans back over her chair and she goes, hi, I'm Danielle and I borrowed a pen. End of story. Fast friend.
- [08:19]
Whitney Tingle
Wait, that's so cute. And how old were you at that time? Like, 13, 12?
- [08:24]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:25]
Danielle Dubois
I had tested out a different school before this one that, you know, first I went to a very small, very alternative charter school, Montessori based charter school. It was, you know, 45 kids. And so by the time I was 12, I was like, I want to be around some more people, some boys. So I tried this other school first, and it was filled with mean girls.
- [08:46]
Whitney Tingle
And I know that well.
- [08:48]
Danielle Dubois
Yeah. And it wasn't my vibe. So I tried this other school, and it was amazing. And all of the most popular girls in school were the nicest girls. Girls.
- [08:58]
Whitney Tingle
That never happens. That never happens.
- [09:00]
Rachel Zoe
I feel like it's such an important point because it's something we've really tried to carry through and how we have built the business. You know, we have historically had a lot of women and a lot of women in leadership roles and to make sure that the culture stays one of rooting each other on, of seeing the best in people, of assuming everyone's doing their best no matter what, um, has been, like, really a top priority for us.
- [09:27]
Danielle Dubois
Yeah. No cattiness, no competition, no mean girls club.
- [09:33]
Whitney Tingle
I mean, that's. By the way, that's the impetus for climbing in heels. You know, I mean, the reason that I started this podcast was because I was mean girl since kindergarten, and I've been. Listen, I've continued to battle mean girls throughout my entire life and career. And I just felt that this was such an amazing forum to pay it forward to amazing women that, you know, I just want to continue to support in every single way. And I think that it's important to talk about the journeys of how you get to the top of where you are. And I think this is such an important point that you're talking about because it's something that I so strongly believe in and advocate for, is women being kind to women. And I think for. For you guys, it's like the fact that she literally said that. That Danielle said to you, and you had come off this, like, mean girl, and she was like, no. And that the fact that the popular girls were nice, I think that. That carrying that through, into. Through your adulthood is so important, you know, because I think sometimes how we grew up, it was sort of like the mean girls were the cool girls, and the direct boys were the hot guys, and the nerdy boys were the nice boys, and, you know, all the things, the tropes. Yeah. And I think changing that whole landscape, I think now. So it's so cool to be nice, you know, So I think you've been.
- [11:01]
Rachel Zoe
So nice to us and supportive and cheering us on from the beginning. So thank you.
- [11:06]
Whitney Tingle
I will always. I'm such a believer in it, but.
- [11:09]
Danielle Dubois
I think that it is a secret to our success, is that we care deeply for each other. And it kind of starts with that foundation of being nice girls. And Having that respect for each other. We always say that first and foremost, we care for each other as people, as humans, as individuals before the business, that if each of us are happy in our lives, if we're feeling good, if we're feeling taken care of, if we're doing work that is inspiring, then we're going to do better at work. And if things aren't going well from a relationship perspective or from our own personal relationships or whatever it is, we're not going to show up as our best. So kind of, you know, nurturing each other and allowing space for us to be real humans, not just, you know, co workers or employees of our company. And that's allowed for this stamina, I would say, like being able to endure the past 13 years.
- [12:17]
Whitney Tingle
I was gonna say.
- [12:18]
Rachel Zoe
So we also worked our asses off, so.
- [12:20]
Whitney Tingle
Right.
- [12:20]
Danielle Dubois
No, I know.
- [12:21]
Whitney Tingle
I know for a fact that you have. I've seen it. I've lived it. I've seen you from the beginning. So. So you start. Okay, so your best friends immediately, I imagine you stayed best friends all through high school and everything else. Right. So what happens after you graduate high school? Do you go to college or do you start a business or both?
- [12:40]
Rachel Zoe
So I moved to New York for college. I wanted to study pre med. Whitney went to Arizona for college and then did some time in Spain. And it was around that time, you know, she had one more year to graduate and she was thinking about LA or New York. And I was like, come to New York. It's the best. You're going to love it. You can just live with me.
- [13:05]
Danielle Dubois
She was like, come live in my apartment. You can sleep in my bed. You can wear all my clothes. Clothes. We'll figure it out. She was like, don't bring anything. She was like, no, really, don't bring anything. We have no space for any of your stuff.
- [13:17]
Whitney Tingle
She's like, actually, you can't come here if you bring anything. Yeah, exactly. A long time. I know.
- [13:25]
Danielle Dubois
So I moved in with her. She was in this two bedroom wing apartment in soho. So it's these small bedrooms. Her bed was almost touching all of the walls in her room and, you know, shared it with another girl. And there was this tiny little kitchenette in the hallway and made space in the pantry for me to come with my one suitcase. And. Yeah. And we figured it out.
- [13:49]
Whitney Tingle
I love it so much. I love it so much. It's the American, right?
- [13:55]
Rachel Zoe
It is. It was so fun. We had so much fun. Probably too much fun. Yeah.
- [14:00]
Whitney Tingle
As. As. As it is in New York.
- [14:03]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah. Exactly. But, you know, the. The kind of start of Saqqara, I'd say, was when we were kids. Like, I suffered from a lot of disordered eating patterns. You know, it was never officially diagnosed because I never wanted to admit it to anyone. And I hopped from diet to diet and was always just looking for the solution. Thought that, you know, my thinness was wrapped up into my worthiness and my power in the world. And I had a terrible relationship to food. Food was always the enemy. So less was always better. No matter what it was. It was never about listening to my body, taking care of my body. It was just with this kind of aim to be thinner.
- [14:51]
Whitney Tingle
Like so many and so much of the world.
- [14:54]
Rachel Zoe
Yes, so many of us. And I. My mom was also very sick for my entire life and in and out of the hospital all the time. And so we were, you know, with medical professionals and doctors all the time. And, you know, I saw many doctors save her life and then I saw many doctors make her life more difficult because they didn't really understand root cause. They didn't understand how to take care of chronic conditions. They were great at like, acute conditions, like you have a heart attack, thank God. But when you're talking about like long term autoimmune issues or, you know, chronic anything, they really couldn't help her. And so I moved to New York to study medicine. And it was, you know, around that time I'd been working in a hospital with a cardiologist and we were seeing people with really late stage autoimmune issues and lifestyle diseases. And after you see so many patients, it's like you start to just realize that we actually don't have the tools to help them long term. Sometimes we have the tools to help them in the short term with pain relief, with symptom relief, but nobody's really talking about. Let's get to the core issue. Then they get moved around and you see the dietitian or you see another specialist, and it's just so disorganized. I was at the bottom of my own journey. I had done this crazy retreat and it was 21 days and it was a water fast and it was just so intense.
- [16:25]
Whitney Tingle
Oh my God.
- [16:27]
Rachel Zoe
Though I think there is room for that in one's kind of like spiritual work if you have a healthy relationship to food. I did not. And so it just took me down. And I wasn't looking at it as like this spiritual kind of thing. I got like this spiritual revolution that I needed, but I had no idea that's what I was in for because it put me to rock bottom. And, you know, it was a blessing now that I, you know, look back and I'm grateful for it. It just made me realize that I really had to renegotiate my relationship to food or I was going to be sick forever. And I had, you know, been to doctors because I had gut issues. They gave me IBS as this umbrella term of like, we don't know.
- [17:08]
Whitney Tingle
And it was some dude trying to diagnose you well, like these, your symptoms. Great, great.
- [17:13]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah. And, you know, now, 15 years later, after I have studied medicine, functional medicine, and have my master's in it, like, I really understand these doctors just don't have the tools to understand what is going on. But it really put me on a path of, after seeing those patients, after kind of myself witnessing how you can't really go to the conventional medical system with chronic conditions. I really wanted to figure out how to help myself get out of rock bottom. And luckily Whitney at that time was in New York with me and we were kind of at this rock bottom together. Yeah, exactly.
- [17:49]
Danielle Dubois
Yeah. You know, my kind of journey to Saqqara also started at a young age. I had terrible cystic acne all over my face. Big red, painful cysts. And I tried everything to fix it. I. They put me on rounds and rounds of antibiotics. I did the Accutane. It didn't work for me.
- [18:12]
Whitney Tingle
And you know, with immune system and.
- [18:15]
Danielle Dubois
All this stuff, I mean, it's now being connected to things like Crohn's and colitis and who knows? It's a very serious drug. And I'm still so shocked that today it's prescribed to people all the time by top dermatologists, when really what I didn't know in that time is that acne starts in the gut. Yeah, it's not a skin issue. It's a gut issue.
- [18:45]
Whitney Tingle
It's like a microbiome thing.
- [18:46]
Danielle Dubois
It's microbiome. It's your immune system. It's your own, your body's bacterial balance and your body's ability to fight about an imbalance of bacteria. So, you know, I, I tried all of these things. And when I was moving to New York, you know, back to our story, moving in with Danielle. I was working on Wall Street. My lifestyle was terrible. I was working 80 hour work weeks. Just go, go, go nonstop. I was, you know, it was part of my job to go out after work and entertain clients and, you know, drink. And my boss would expect me to come and have a drink with him.
- [19:26]
Whitney Tingle
I remember those days.
- [19:27]
Danielle Dubois
Yeah. And you know, and then it's. You're eating fried food and whatever else with those drinks. And in the office there's free pizza Fridays and lunch. And learns. Now I'm 20, I'm broke, so I'm eating whatever food they're putting in front of me. And my skin was just at an all time worse. Like, I had put on a fast 15 pounds and my acne was just in a complete flare up.
- [19:52]
Whitney Tingle
Right.
- [19:53]
Danielle Dubois
So I was desperate for my skin to clear up. It was affecting my confidence, my career, how I showed up in the world. You know, I couldn't hide it.
- [20:05]
Whitney Tingle
The power of, like clear skin.
- [20:07]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah.
- [20:08]
Whitney Tingle
I do understand because I have a lot of people in my life so affected by acne. Insisted. And it's. It's polarizing. They don't want to actually go out ever. They don't want to leave their house because they can't, like, look at people.
- [20:19]
Danielle Dubois
Yeah. And you try makeup and you're covering it up and that just makes it worse. But I thought, I'm in New York City and this city has everything, the best of the best. I'm gonna go to all those doctors I read about in the magazines and they're gonna fix me. And one by one, I went to them and one by one, they wanted to write me another prescription for a mega round of antibiotics, which just makes it worse and has long term side effects by messing up your gut microbiome or another prescription for Accutane. And I said, I already did those things and they didn't work. So what else do you have for me? And they basically just said, nothing, you know, I can't help you. And I was so upset and because I had so much hope set on these people that they were going to fix me. And when they didn't have the solution, I was devastated. But in that moment, I heard my inner voice shouting at me at this point, like, don't do it. It's not the answer. You need to go inside and figure out what is the root cause of these symptoms on your face.
- [21:29]
Rachel Zoe
Right.
- [21:30]
Danielle Dubois
And that was the first time I thought about it as not the thing I was trying to fix, but a symptom of the actual thing that was going on in my body. And so I turned to my best friend, to Danielle, and back to our Sedona roots of food as medicine. Mother Nature's ability to heal, the body's ability to heal if given the right tools and ingredients, the right material to repair itself. And we decided to come together and figure out just for ourselves. Like, what does true nutrition look like? What is the healthiest way of eating? How can we give our bodies the cleanest, purest inputs and give it what it needs, all the right things, so that it can function at its best? This is something that so many people don't know about nutrition is that a majority of our body's processes are nutrient dependent. Right. That it needs nutrition in order to function properly. So just like eliminating, I had done all the elimination diets, I had eliminated everything out of my diet. Danielle and I, we tried master cleanse. We did all the things and it didn't work because we weren't feeding the body the things it needed in order to function properly.
- [22:51]
Whitney Tingle
Right.
- [22:52]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah. The literature really supports this notion that it's way more important what you do eat than what you don't eat.
- [23:00]
Whitney Tingle
Sure.
- [23:01]
Rachel Zoe
And I think we just have an obsession with what not to eat. And I can say that because I was one of them. And it's just somehow way more seductive to have a list of what not to eat than to think about what should I eat every single day instead?
- [23:17]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [24:55]
Danielle Dubois
Sail to breathtaking destinations in Alaska or Europe with Disney Cruise Line.
- [25:00]
Rachel Zoe
Discover where onboard magic meets onshore adventures.
- [25:04]
Danielle Dubois
Where beloved characters Hiya Palmer. Meet alluring landscapes, where Broadway quality shows meet historic cities, where imaginative dining meets amazing wildlife, and where exciting experiences await the whole family. Book an adventure filled summer Disney cruise to Alaska or Europe with the best.
- [25:25]
Whitney Tingle
All inclusive vacation deals to Mexico and the Caribbean Booking your getaway with Cheap Caribbean Vacations means you have more freedom to do your deal. Whether you want to enjoy snorkeling, endless margaritas and more, or simply soak up the sun and sand in a tropical local paradise. Cheap Caribbean Vacations has your deal for that Plan and book the exact way you want at exactly the right price for you by using our exclusive budget Beach Finder. Or find a featured all inclusive package to Iberostar Hotel and Resorts in Jamaica and do your deal@cheapcaribbean.com I remember the first time I had Sakara and I just remember going this just feels really good. Like it just felt really good. It felt clean, it felt fresh, it felt thought out. It wasn't. I think that to me you were the first to create something that felt like a lifestyle of eating rather than a diet or a cleanse. And it. And I think that that in my opinion is, is why it's so successful. Because. And I think that is a very hard thing to create and, and wildly the food is so good. And I think that's the other thing because I, you know, I come from a mother, a family who loves food and when you say diet or light or restrictive or regimen, it is like a hell no. Like, like they eat everything. They don't. I mean my parents are older. They don't. Like when you say to them like gluten free. They're like, what are you talking about? You know, they're like why you need gluten or it doesn't taste good. You know, they're in their late 80s. Like they can eat whatever they want.
- [27:04]
Danielle Dubois
Yeah.
- [27:05]
Whitney Tingle
But. But I guess my point is, is that I think that more and more now we are seeing the it's almost like an epidemic of autoimmunes and chronic disease. And it is an epidemic. It is. I have so many friends with autoimmunes and like to me it's like this combination of polarizing your immune system with antibiotics, you know, because they just throw antibiotics at everything. Right. And then you have nothing to fight anything with. And too many parents that aren't paying attention when they're giving their kids from, you know, age zero to when they leave the house, just giving them whatever, like, here's Doritos with your lunch, or here's whatever. And I just feel like there's so many things to prevent it now. We know so much. And so I feel like you guys were such pioneers. So I want to understand, I guess, what, like, how in that moment where you guys were at rock bottom of your own health problems, what happened that you were like, okay, let's. Let's do this. And how do you do it? Because being entrepreneurial and starting a business, especially talking about you guys were living in, like, the teeniest space ever, probably 400 square feet, two bedroom. Like, yeah. You know, how did you have the power, the skills, the. The money, like, to actually say, let's do this? Because it's scary as hell.
- [28:34]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah. And I also just want to add about, you know, this idea of autoimmune issues before we get to that is like, you know, I do think there's a lot of parental responsibility that needs to be had, but I actually think the onus is on the people and the corporations who are making really bad food. Agreed. And then we're also swimming in a soup of toxic exposure that is very new. You know, we're around electronic devices all the time. Like, there's just a lot that is trying to kind of like, eat away at our health and our health span. And so, you know, the. It was really the start of Saqqara was to. We think about our health as, like, I always say this. I don't. I. I wish I could tell you who it was by, but I don't remember. But it's something like, you know, a healthy person has a thousand dreams and an unhealthy person has one.
- [29:29]
Whitney Tingle
Right.
- [29:30]
Rachel Zoe
And if you think about your health as something that we are very lucky to have, the most important thing that we can do is understand how to either get back to health or stay healthy. And so we both knew that we had to get back to health and that we were kind of at this fork in the road where we could keep doing what we had been doing and probably end up sicker and sicker, or we could try and figure out, how do we actually get back to health and make that our priority. Not my thinness, not Whitney's acne, but to truly get back to A center and to understand what is your toolkit. Because for me, as somebody with disordered eating patterns, the scariest place in the world to be was to be at that rock bottom and have no idea how to get out. And so, you know, I really appreciate what you said about Sakara being a lifestyle versus a diet, because we worked so hard to make sure that that was true. You know, that's why we talk about this idea of eat clean, play dirty. It's like, you know, I am the first to grab for a glass of wine. I had french fries last night. It's not about perfection. It's not about what not to eat and drink. It's about what you do most of the time. And if we could just kind of help people understand that your toolkit really needs to be focused on what you do do and less on idolizing what not to do. Just that shift for people makes such a big deal. And so when we started Sakara, we found that out. After me, I studied nutrition, and then we just kind of, from our Sedona roots, knew so much about how people had been looking at nutrition for thousands of years and all these ancient modalities and herbs and looking at food and plants as medicine, not just like, oh, I'm hungry and here's some calories. And so we came up with our pillars of nutrition, and when we talk about them, none of them are going to surprise you. They are all foundational. They are so simple, and yet none of us can do it every single day. It's so hard. You know, it's like, eat your greens. Make sure you're getting a lot of colors. Make sure your plate is full of whole fresh foods versus it is very pretty.
- [31:45]
Whitney Tingle
It's very pretty.
- [31:47]
Rachel Zoe
And make sure it's delicious. That was a big one for me because I had dieted so long, I was so used to eating, you know, cardboard. Yeah, of course, like you drinking nothing. And it was really important that we made this a joyful ride because this is a lifestyle. And, you know, we think that joy is a nutrient. And so we realized, like, the. The foundation of, you know, nutrition, or we, like, we prefer to call it nourishment, is actually pretty simple. And most of us can agree that we need to get more fruits and vegetables and whole foods, yet somehow it's so hard to do. And so we were like, well, you know, let's try it. Just Whitney and I, we just were like, okay, let's commit for a couple months. We're going to do this. And we would switch off Cooking days. And it really only took about three weeks before both of us just. Everything about us started to change.
- [32:40]
Danielle Dubois
Monumental shift.
- [32:42]
Rachel Zoe
Monumental shift where I like, it gives me chills now, even just talking about it. But I just. It was like my brain turned on. I had been so focused on the wrong things. So, like, you know, thinking of food as the enemy and what not to eat. But when I used my time and energy to focus on what to eat, it was like everything just got better. My mental health got better, actually. It was so much easier to kind of like get in the shape I wanted to get into because I had nourishment, I had the tools to do that. I was like, not getting enough nutrients every single day. And, you know, it was the first time, you know, the inflammation lit, skin started to go down. And we just realized we were onto something. We had friends asking us, what have you been doing? What juice cleanser you want? That was like, really the time of the juice cleanse. And we were like, no, actually, we're chewing these days. And, you know, and so we just thought, let's. Let's see if there's a couple other people that out there that have some version of what we're going through and really need the solution at their doorstep so that there's no, like, nothing to get in the way. Here's breakfast, lunch and dinner. Organic, nutritionally designed. You don't have to think about it, by the way. You don't have to heat it up if you don't want to. You can bring it to the office. It's beautiful. It's delicious. And, you know, we were like, okay, maybe there's a few people. We had no idea what we were doing. We were in our young 20 something, and it started with one client, and then their lives were changed, and then it turned into five clients. And we were just cooking in our kitchen, like at home.
- [34:13]
Whitney Tingle
Were you just like, dropping it off at that point? You were just dropping it off at people's homes?
- [34:17]
Rachel Zoe
We were doing everything and we did that for. For a long time. And then it was actually.
- [34:24]
Whitney Tingle
That's impressive for liking a little kitchenette, right?
- [34:28]
Rachel Zoe
Oh, my God. So small.
- [34:30]
Danielle Dubois
Like, yeah.
- [34:33]
Whitney Tingle
Kitchenettes. Like, I know exactly what. I have such a visual of your apartment.
- [34:37]
Rachel Zoe
Like, hard to cook for one person in that kitchen.
- [34:40]
Whitney Tingle
Yeah, by the way, it is. It's almost like it's one level up from like a dorm room.
- [34:44]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah, no, exactly. But it really set us on this mission because, you know, once you impact one person's life, you're like, oh, maybe there's somebody else who needs this. And then it just really started to snowball. And it kind of hit this peak point when an editor from Daily Candy kind of heard about us, and we were still, like, cooking ourselves, delivering ourselves. I know Daily Candy RIP and she was like, hey, I'm, you know, doing a piece about, you know, health and nutrition and how, like, juice cleansing might be out. Can I try what you're doing? And, you know, we had to put on a face about it because we didn't want to tell her. We were just, like, cooking in our kitchen and this thing was so small, and so we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, so we made it ourselves.
- [35:35]
Whitney Tingle
Yeah.
- [35:36]
Rachel Zoe
And so we will we. And then we ended up delivering ourselves. And we really surprised her because she, I'm sure, just assumed we had delivery people, but we did not. So it was us. And we opened the door and she, like, still had curlers in her hair, like, what are you doing here?
- [35:49]
Danielle Dubois
She was really surprised to see us. And we're like, oh, yeah. You know, we just wanted to make sure that it arrived safely to you. So we delivered it ourselves, the IP service.
- [36:01]
Rachel Zoe
But she ended up writing a piece about us. And we had no idea it was going to happen. So it just happened randomly, like, three weeks later. And I was the first to realize it because at the time we built our own website, Shopify did not exist. And so we had. You had to email us to order. And it was like 10 email exchanges before you could order. And then we, like, would send you a PayPal invoice. But after Daily Candy, I woke up one morning and I opened the computer and it was thousands of emails being like, I want to order next week. She called us the anti Crazy Cleanse. Yeah, I agree with that.
- [36:38]
Whitney Tingle
That's a great one.
- [36:40]
Ryan Seacrest
Yeah.
- [36:40]
Rachel Zoe
And it's still true today. Like, it's really. Is that so? Bless her. And Whitney and I were like, what are we gonna do? So we, like, had to make up, like, a name for an email and an assistant, and it was really us. And we told everyone we were sold out for two weeks. And in those two weeks, we got a kitchen, hired a staff, got delivery people, and that was really the start.
- [37:07]
Whitney Tingle
Were you scared that you were going to, like, lose interest in those two weeks? It's so scary to do that.
- [37:12]
Danielle Dubois
I think we just. I mean, there were so many people.
- [37:15]
Whitney Tingle
That's insane, you guys, because that was the very beginning of, like. Because we launched the Zoe Report around. So what year was that?
- [37:24]
Danielle Dubois
2000 2011.
- [37:26]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah. Yeah.
- [37:28]
Whitney Tingle
It's so wild.
- [37:30]
Rachel Zoe
And nobody knew what plant based was.
- [37:32]
Danielle Dubois
People, nobody knew how to get food delivered.
- [37:35]
Whitney Tingle
You're like, in Sedona, Arizona, everybody's plant based.
- [37:38]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah. No, people were like, can you just make sure I'm allergic to shrimp? And we're like, don't worry, don't worry.
- [37:43]
Danielle Dubois
Not a problem.
- [37:44]
Whitney Tingle
You're good.
- [37:45]
Rachel Zoe
But we were stuck. We then we were, like, went to Craigslist and we were, like, trying to hire kitchen people and delivery people. I mean, it's endless, endless stories about how, like, we definitely have some PTSD about what it meant to.
- [37:58]
Whitney Tingle
Yeah, but that's. I think, you know, I love this story. I love this journey because it really goes back to the original way of building a business. A small business with a big idea that is terrifying when it grows that quickly because it's really hard to manage. And I think that's sort of like one of the biggest pain points for entrepreneurs that, like, if you have this, like, PR moment and then all of a sudden you go from like, 200 to 2,000 or even 20 to 2,000, you're like, wait. Like, you don't. Because you have to be so careful in that moment. Right.
- [38:41]
Danielle Dubois
And especially in a business that continues to grow, where you're going from 20 to 2,000 to 20,000. And, you know, there's no Danielle and I talk about this. There's no CEO guidebook, no entrepreneur guidebook that teaches you or trains you how to be a CEO when you have a team of four people. And how to be a CEO when you have 10 people, 20 people, 200 people. Like, you have to just figure it out and be able to scale yourself in that same time you're understanding your. Your ability to lead, your leadership skills have to scale along with the business, which is also hard.
- [39:25]
Whitney Tingle
There's so many. There's so many things, and there's so many learnings, and it is navigating your path. Right. And, like, I mean, how many mistakes did you make along the way?
- [39:36]
Rachel Zoe
Daily mistakes every single day. Yeah.
- [39:40]
Whitney Tingle
And it's hard. Like, so. So a couple of things I want to ask you. So what were the scariest moments, if you can remember, even just one or two, that, like, basically you were like, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. Like, we can't. We're so screwed. Or, like. Or did you not have any of those? Because I know I've had, like, countless. But I mean, there's so many.
- [40:02]
Rachel Zoe
I mean, for me, I remember it was early on, and this is where I'm just so grateful we had each other, because when I had an off day, Whitney could be like, no, we're doing this. Right, and vice versa. But I remember we had this one client early on, and she was a friend of a current client, and he had sent it to her. And so she wasn't somebody who, like, went to our site, ordered it herself, Right. And she wrote us this email where she was like, I could just go to Chop. Like, I don't get what you're doing, and I won't be ordering again, but I really wish you guys luck. And then I remember Whitney and I, you know, we would work at a cafe, and I remember looking at her in the cafe and be like, yeah, what are we doing? Like, we're delivering salads. Like, what are. People only want pizza delivered? Like, at that time, their meal delivery didn't really exist.
- [40:54]
Danielle Dubois
There was no Uber Eats or posts.
- [40:58]
Whitney Tingle
Yeah.
- [40:58]
Rachel Zoe
And so I was like, there was no one to kind of for us to be like, this is what we're doing, but better or different or. It was like we were really making a new path. And so I would. I remember that moment where I was like, yeah, wait, what are we doing? We're cooking ourselves. Like, I couldn't imagine at the time, like, scaling to 100,000 square feet of production facility. I couldn't imagine having a team of 200. Like, I just couldn't. Hard. Even though I knew we were onto something, it's hard to imagine how you're gonna get there. And for me personally, like, I have achiever and, like, one of my top things, like, I personally have to feel like I'm achieving all the time, which has its pros and its cons. But in those moments where I'm like, yeah, this doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. Let's try something else. Let's pivot. I remember Whitney being like, no, we're onto something. Like, remember, this food changed our life. This is not chopped. This is, like nutrition delivered to your door. And so we could kind of, like, talk each other down. But then there were so many other moments. Like, wasn't us. It was, like, outside circumstances that just made it so hard. Like hiring kitchen staff. If you've never, like, worked in a restaurant or. It's so hard. It's so hard.
- [42:13]
Whitney Tingle
That's why I'm saying, like, I have a real knowledge of what you guys have built. I really do. Just because I have so many friends on all sides of the industry in food and, you know, just building different kinds of businesses around food. Whether it's like mini cupcakes or, or nutrition based. It's, you know, to cookies. Like, it just doesn't. It. It's so hard. It's so freaking hard. Which is why I like really wanted to have you guys on. Because I think being pioneers and you know, this is something that, you know people, I say, well, Rachel, you were the first stylist, you were this, you're that. And I'm like, okay, thanks. But like, that's also comes with the hardest challenges because there is no, there is no one to look at of like, I want to be that or I want to get there, I want to accomplish this much or I want to do that better. Right. It's sort of like, like, what am I doing? I'm figuring this out as I go.
- [43:13]
Danielle Dubois
To educate the market.
- [43:15]
Whitney Tingle
Yes.
- [43:15]
Danielle Dubois
And it on a completely new category.
- [43:17]
Whitney Tingle
Correct, Correct. And I think, I think the other thing I want to say is like, how did you. So you started with this program, right? And then to your point, like it was two of you, then it was four of you, then it was whatever. That to me is the scariest part. Right. Like the growing pains of the small to the next level, but then really going to the scaling level. So did you then along the way, did you raise money? Did you have advisors? Did you have friends that were like, guys, this is over your head, you need help. Or like, how, how does that, like, how did you go from that to where you are now? How many people are you serving now, roughly?
- [43:55]
Danielle Dubois
I mean, we do millions and millions of meals each year delivered all across the country.
- [44:01]
Whitney Tingle
Insane. How big is your team?
- [44:05]
Danielle Dubois
Hundreds now. Hundreds of people. And headquarters is where we're headquartered in New York. We also have a team in la, but I'd say team is everything. Like, we have had amazing, truly incredible, so talented people work for Sakara over the years. I mean, early on we had just really amazing people. We had an incredible president join us where she was a client and she wrote to us an email and wanted to meet with us. And we're like, oh, she probably wants to talk about digestive issues and you know, I don't know, like, I guess we can meet with her because she didn't tell us why she wanted to meet. And then she showed up with her resume and it's, you know, Harvard Business School and all these Goldman Sachs and all these amazing things in her resume. And there are basically like three of us sitting in a, in an office space and we're still doing everything and she said, you guys changed my health, my body, my life. Like, I see what you're doing here and I want to be a part of it.
- [45:15]
Whitney Tingle
Wow. And also I have chills.
- [45:19]
Danielle Dubois
No, I was just going to say we, we've been able to attract really incredible, high caliber people to our team because they have had these life changing experiences.
- [45:30]
Whitney Tingle
Yeah, sure.
- [45:31]
Rachel Zoe
I'd also add that we didn't raise money, so, you know, we really built it off of some money we raised by throwing a dinner and that's how we started it. And now, you know, we're obviously on so many like entrepreneurial panels and podcasts and everyone I talk to, like, thinks that there's one path and that is that you come up with an idea, you make a deck, you come up with like a prototype, you raise money and you go to market. And I think this kind of genre or this kind of wherever we are in like the world of entrepreneurialism, it's like people just want to get it perfect, raise money and go. And I think they're very scared to start with one client. They're very scared to start small. And it really allowed us to evolve and adapt and own our company. I mean, we still own the majority of our company and that is unheard of in most kind of like consumer D2C type businesses, but especially in meal delivery because it is such an operationally and logistically heavy business that most of the time people raise hundreds of millions of dollars even when they're doing far less in revenue. And so they own very small pieces of their company. We've been very fortunate. We didn't raise money until we were doing millions in revenue. And then we raised money from people who were willing to kind of be in the long game with us, weren't asking us to just like turn the business in a couple years. And still to this day, like, sometimes I'll have, I'll have a board meeting and a friend or somebody will be like, oh, gosh, sorry. I'm like, no, I love my board meetings. Like, I love my board. They're, they're our biggest fans and some of them are like family at this point and just cheering us on 13 years later and just seeing like, what else can you do? What more can you do? And you know, sometimes have to remind us like that we're on this mission and, you know, yeah, of course it's.
- [47:37]
Whitney Tingle
Hard to not like lose your, lose your way a little bit sometimes along the way because it's pressure is real.
- [47:45]
Danielle Dubois
But we feel so lucky that we are mission Based. Because so many companies do lose their way, and they're like, what are we doing? And let's pivot and let's try this and, you know, try that and follow this trend. And we have this.
- [47:57]
Rachel Zoe
Of investors are like, you have to change your business. You have to sell. You have to, you know, yeah, right.
- [48:04]
Danielle Dubois
But we have this anchor in place, the stake in the ground, our North Star, that says we're here to transform lives. We're helping people through, you know, nutrition, through plants, and giving people the tools to sit in the driver's seat of their own health and be a, you know, an active creator of their life. And so that really guides us when we're wondering, wait, what are we supposed to do here? Like, oh, yeah, we need to just think about the client again. What is. What does she need? How can we better service her? How can we, you know, service her deeper? More of her needs and more people, more of her.
- [48:48]
Whitney Tingle
And you guys, like, I love the bars. I love the powders. I love the granola is amazing. Like, I also think that's a very important key to the business to have for people that don't want to be on a program but want the products consistently and at different price points, a hundred percent. So I think that's a huge thing. But also one thing I really want to ask you before we start to wrap is what do you do about copycats? Because there are a lot. And that's something like I know I've had to deal with throughout my entire career on all sides. And it's something that I think when you have a business like this, there are people that will jump to copy or existing businesses that will pivot to try and copy. How do you deal with it? Because I think there is a common reaction to that, but I'm seeing many over this year of people that have gone to great lengths to do different things to deal with that. So tell me your thoughts on that.
- [49:55]
Rachel Zoe
I think when I come at it from different angles, which I think is good, I think we're both of the mind, though, of this business is very hard. It's very hard. Like, your business is very hard. Like, there. You know, it might be easy to get to 100 clients, maybe even a thousand clients, but. And it's not. It's not easy, but it might be doable. But then once you start thinking about scaling, which, you know, it's a hard business if you're going to keep it at a small amount of people, it's a lot of effort for, you know, small Amounts of clients. And so if you're talking about scaling, like, it's just incredibly difficult. And then I don't. I think we have really nailed how to make food with love. And you feel like, you know, you got it at a spa or your mom made it for you, made with love and then delivered to your door. It's incredibly difficult. I mean, we've had some of like the world's experts working on it. We've been in the kitchen, like, we've been making food. So it's like, it's. It's been perfected over 15 years. And so I think there's also just time. Like, it's going to be hard for someone to fast forward. But I'm also of the personal mind, like, kind of ethically, spiritually of just like, you just like, yeah, you just keep going and look. Will definitely lose clients to some competitors, but I've also seen so many clients come back. Like, if you want to go try something new, go try something new. Like, we're in it for the long game. We're the lifestyle. And so if you need to go try something else for a little while, go. But there is longevity to this nutrition, like, continually. Even though on the consumer level, you see so many different types of trends. And nutrition, when you look at the literature, it doesn't change. Like, it's just like over and over again. Get more whole foods into your diet, you know, get clean fats, get healthy proteins, get enough greens. Like, that just has, like, stood the test of time. And that's what we're about. And I totally get it if some client wants to, like, go try a crazy cleanse, you know, go do something wild. But I tend to find that they always come back. And so I think about just stamina. I mean, and that's also, I think the wisdom of doing this for 15 years is they'll come back and we're just going to keep going.
- [52:19]
Whitney Tingle
I look at Sakara as a more affordable way to have your own healthy private chef. You know, I actually have so many.
- [52:27]
Rachel Zoe
Good quotes from you.
- [52:29]
Danielle Dubois
It's a personal chef and a nutritionist.
- [52:32]
Whitney Tingle
As I speak in sound bites. But I've watched it from the beginning, and I just love that you guys are standing so strong and at the top of it and just continue to, like, expand and improve. I also love that you can customize so much now. I think that's so great, too. So to me, those are actually like, such significant, like, wins, you know, and we're.
- [52:56]
Danielle Dubois
We're not pushing veganism that's not what we're about. We're about basing your diet on plants. That means getting enough plants into your diet because the rest of the world is pushing you. Bread, meat, cheese, coffee and alcohol as your five major food groups. You can go, yeah, you can go out to a restaurant and get an amazing burger but it's really difficult to go somewhere and get high quality plants. A vegetable based meal that is delicious, that's organic, which is really important. We were earlier we were talking about gut bacteria and antibiotics. Pesticides and herbicides are often antibiotics that are spread sprayed on your produce and you know, you were eating that and we have all these little bugs inside of us and it changes your gut microbiome. So you want to be getting organic, but it's. How many restaurants do you know that are organic?
- [53:53]
Whitney Tingle
Not enough, that's for sure.
- [53:55]
Danielle Dubois
You could count them all on one hand.
- [53:56]
Whitney Tingle
Yeah, it's so insane.
- [53:58]
Danielle Dubois
So we really want to make sure that you're getting the, the enough plants into your diet. Enough variety of plants to feed a diversity of microbes in your gut. And to be that support, you know, that we really did throw the idea of dieting on its head. We turned it around. Instead of just eating whatever you want and then jumping onto a diet to clean up, we said no, eat clean most of the time and then play dirty and go out and go on your vacation and do whatever.
- [54:29]
Whitney Tingle
That's how I live. I'm like, you know what, you got to go and have fun too. This whole like never have a drink again thing is not for me.
- [54:37]
Danielle Dubois
So, you know, most of us need the support in order to eat clean. We don't have our mothers and our grandmothers cooking us food. You know, we're not living in a village with multi in a multi generational home. And so in a way, you know, we've felt over the years like we're your Sakara mamas. Like we're providing you with that healthy food saying eat your vegetables and so that you, yeah, you can go out and play dirty without any shame.
- [55:05]
Whitney Tingle
Well, I love you guys. I'm so happy I met you in the beginning. I've watched you, I've watched the journey and you know, I'm such a fan. I'm. No one paid me to say this. I, I for my listeners. If you have not heard of Sakara, I can't imagine but if you haven't tried it, you should.
- [55:26]
Danielle Dubois
We actually just launched a brand new program that I don't know if we should be promoting it on here because it's already sold out through the first week of February.
- [55:36]
Whitney Tingle
It'll come back.
- [55:37]
Danielle Dubois
Yeah.
- [55:38]
Whitney Tingle
Come back again.
- [55:39]
Danielle Dubois
It's. We revamped our level two detox, and it is amazing. It is. It will change your body and your relationship to your food is just such an incredible program. It's also a. It feels like a spiritual cleanse, a physical cleanse.
- [55:56]
Whitney Tingle
And it's sold out until the first week of February.
- [55:59]
Danielle Dubois
Yes. But so if people want to do it, they have to hop on.
- [56:03]
Whitney Tingle
I'm signing up right now. Post Fashion Week, please.
- [56:06]
Rachel Zoe
Yeah, Post Fashion Week is a great time. It's. It's like, we called it Level 2 because it's like a level up. So if you're feeling called to, you know, detox cleanse, I think it can be a really good place to start. And then you can kind of maintain with the meals after that. But, yeah, it's not for the faint of heart, but it's certainly easier than juice cleanses, things like that. It's very nourishing. Or things that are just like, it's real food. You're gonna chew, you're gonna enjoy it, you're gonna have hot meals. Like, it's.
- [56:38]
Whitney Tingle
I love it.
- [56:38]
Rachel Zoe
It's really nourishing.
- [56:40]
Whitney Tingle
I love it. This was so much fun and so much to learn from your experience and so inspirational for our listeners to, you know, not just like, whether it's trying Sakara, but just taking care of themselves, but also how to start a badass business. I'm so impressed with you guys. Soon. I hope to see you guys really soon.
- [57:05]
Danielle Dubois
This was so fun. It was great to see you.
- [57:16]
Whitney Tingle
Okay. I want to say thank you so much to Danielle and Whitney for coming on the pod today. They have truly built such an extraordinary lifestyle brand in Sakara life. It is so beyond just a healthy meal program, and I cannot wait to see what's next for them. Thank you so much for listening to Climbing in Heels. If you haven't already, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the Iheart app, or wherever you get your podcast. You don't miss a single episode this season. Be sure to follow me on Instagram at Rachelzo and the show at Climbing in Heels Pod for the latest episodes and updates. I will talk to you soon.
- [58:03]
Ryan Seacrest
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Whitney Tingle
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- [59:12]
Danielle Dubois
Okay, just wiped his runny nose on.
- [59:14]
Whitney Tingle
My jacket and the guy next to me sitting in a pool of perspiration insists on sharing my armrest.
- [59:22]
Ryan Seacrest
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Danielle Dubois
There's no waiting and no sweaty guy.
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