Danielle’s story: A breakup, an intense reaction, and ADHD diagnosis (from “ADHD Aha!”)

Summary

Summary of "Danielle’s Story: A Breakup, an Intense Reaction, and ADHD Diagnosis" – Climbing the Walls

Release Date: May 21, 2025
Host/Author: Understood.org
Podcast Information: Climbing the Walls is an investigative limited-series podcast by Understood.org that delves into why women were undiagnosed with ADHD for so long and examines the significant increase in diagnoses since the pandemic, reshaping our understanding of ADHD.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode features Danielle Elliott, a celebrated documentarian and science journalist whose work has appeared on platforms like HBO, NBC, The New York Times, and ESPN. Hosted by Laura Key, the episode intertwines Danielle's personal journey with ADHD and the creation of Climbing the Walls.

[00:26] Danielle Elliott: "Here I am."

[16:49] Danielle Elliott: "Climbing the walls is my attempt to understand the rise in diagnosis among women, primarily during the pandemic."

2. Danielle Elliott’s Personal ADHD Story

Danielle shares her ADHD diagnosis journey, which culminated in February 2022. This revelation was triggered by an intense emotional reaction to a breakup, leading her to explore deeper into her mental health.

[02:35] Danielle Elliott: "I kept thinking about it for another, I guess, two months. I just felt like I had this very strong reaction."

3. The Breakup and Its Impact

The breakup served as a catalyst for Danielle's self-discovery. She describes the relationship as one where both parties were "navigating their way out of it," leading to a visceral reaction that she later identified as linked to ADHD.

[03:33] Danielle Elliott: "I had been looking at other apartments... which is, and I apparently, I know this now... as we drove by it, his thought was like, oh, okay, good."

4. Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria (RSD) and ADHD

Danielle discusses experiencing rejection sensitivity, a common facet of ADHD, which profoundly affected her emotional response during her breakup. This sensitivity led her to seek an ADHD evaluation.

[03:28] Laura Key: "rejection sensitivity often being a part of adhd."

[14:47] Danielle Elliott: "Sometimes it's an acceptance, but they want to have a conversation... my fear of, like, I don't mind putting things out there, but I don't really want to know how anyone reacts to it."

5. The Role of Travel and Novelty in ADHD

Danielle explains her penchant for travel and constant change, attributing it to her ADHD. Traveling provides the stimulation and novelty that she craves, allowing her to thrive in new environments without the constraints of routine.

[09:09] Laura Key: "Tell me what that feels like. And does it work out the way that you hope it will work out?"

[09:13] Danielle Elliott: "It's like completely new surroundings... a sense of discovery."

6. ADHD and Relationships

Reflecting on her longest relationship, Danielle realizes how ADHD influenced her emotional regulation and interactions. She acknowledges masking behaviors and the challenges of maintaining long-term commitments.

[07:01] Danielle Elliott: "I regulated by completely shutting down. And in this moment, I didn't shut down. I just let it all out."

7. ADHD in the Workplace

As a journalist, Danielle navigates rejection more objectively, understanding that editorial decisions often reflect volume and workload rather than personal shortcomings. However, she still grapples with the fear of potential criticism.

[15:19] Danielle Elliott: "I'm so sure. So that's probably how it shows up. But then it's already out in the world, so I can't do anything about it."

8. The Creation of "Climbing the Walls"

Danielle embarked on creating Climbing the Walls to explore the surge in ADHD diagnoses among women. The podcast aims to provide a nuanced understanding beyond simplistic explanations, incorporating personal stories and expert insights.

[16:49] Danielle Elliott: "It's my attempt to go beyond the headlines and the quick summaries of why so many women are being diagnosed with ADHD now."

9. Key Insights and Learnings from the Podcast

Through the podcast, Danielle discovers the universality of ADHD experiences among women, challenging her perceptions of uniqueness. Conversations with other women revealed shared struggles and triumphs, fostering a sense of community and understanding.

[18:54] Danielle Elliott: "The biggest thing I've learned is that I'm like, this is maybe a strange thing to say, but that I'm not all that unique."

She also highlights the lack of research on how female hormones intersect with ADHD, emphasizing the need for personalized treatments that account for biological differences.

[23:41] Danielle Elliott: "We need treatments that consider female hormones and how those affect... ADHD symptoms."

10. Conclusion

Climbing the Walls serves as a pivotal exploration of ADHD in women, shedding light on overlooked aspects and advocating for comprehensive research and tailored treatments. Danielle Elliott's personal narrative, intertwined with broader discussions, underscores the importance of awareness and understanding in transforming the ADHD landscape for women.

[28:53] Danielle Elliott: "That’s where the name of the show comes from."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Danielle Elliott [02:35]: "I kept thinking about it for another, I guess, two months. I just felt like I had this very strong reaction."
• Laura Key [03:28]: "Rejection sensitivity often being a part of adhd."
• Danielle Elliott [09:13]: "It's like completely new surroundings... a sense of discovery."
• Danielle Elliott [07:01]: "I regulated by completely shutting down. And in this moment, I didn't shut down. I just let it all out."
• Danielle Elliott [18:54]: "The biggest thing I've learned is that I'm like, this is maybe a strange thing to say, but that I'm not all that unique."
• Danielle Elliott [23:41]: "We need treatments that consider female hormones and how those affect... ADHD symptoms."
• Danielle Elliott [28:53]: "That’s where the name of the show comes from."

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This episode offers a profound look into the intricacies of ADHD in women's lives, blending personal anecdotes with critical analysis. Danielle Elliott's candid storytelling provides both solace and insight, making Climbing the Walls an essential listen for anyone seeking to understand the female ADHD experience.

Transcript

[Danielle Elliott]

Hey, everyone. Danielle here. As you know, I shared a lot about my personal journey with ADHD throughout Climbing the Walls, but there was so much I didn't get to include. So I recently joined another podcast called ADHD Aha. It's all about people's ADHD stories and the moment they realized, oh, this is adhd. I shared my own aha Moment and talked a bit about the making of Climbing the Walls too. I'm dropping that episode into the Climbing the Walls. If you enjoy it, be sure to follow ADHD Aha. Wherever you get your podcasts or just click the link in the show notes.

[Laura Key]

This is ADHD Aha. A podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have adhd. My name is Laura Key. I head up our editorial team [e-mail] and as someone who's had my own ADHD aha moment, I'll be your host. I am here today in person with documentarian and science journalist Danielle Elliott. Danielle, your work has been featured on hbo, NBC, the New York Times, espn. I know there's a long list. I don't have my computer in front of me, so I can't go on and on and on. But so excited to have you here today. Danielle is also the host and the journalist behind Understood's brand new podcast called Climbing the Walls. We're very excited. We're going to talk about that. Welcome, Danielle. Thanks for being in person with me today.

[Danielle Elliott]

Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Laura Key]

Can I offer you a fidget?

[Danielle Elliott]

I'm, like, already looking at them. Like, can I grab one?

[Laura Key]

It's like a tray of hors d' oeuvres that we have here on our fancy new ADHD Aha set. All right, Danielle, so on Climbing the Walls, you talk a little bit about yourself today on adhd. Aha. We're going to talk about you. How does that make you feel?

[Danielle Elliott]

Great. Yeah. No, I'm not convinced. The thing in my head right now is. Yeah. How often I tend to overshare and how much I'm going to try not to do that.

[Laura Key]

That's all I do on the show. I overshare. So you're in good company.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. I feel like climbing the walls is a giant overshare. So we'll just keep going.

[Laura Key]

Let's talk about your diagnosis. When were you diagnosed with ADHD?

[Danielle Elliott]

It was the end of February of 2022.

[Laura Key]

Pandemic diagnosis. Yeah. What was happening? Why did you seek out an evaluation?

[Danielle Elliott]

So I guess it was four or five Months earlier, I had gone through a breakup. And it was the night of the breakup. I just had this really visceral reaction to a very normal conversation. And that surprised me. And I kept thinking about it for another, I guess, two months. I just felt like I had this very strong reaction. And I tried to figure out what it was, and I finally narrowed in on rejection. And then I started searching extreme reactions to rejection. And something popped up about rejection sensitivity and rejection sensitive dysphoria. As I read it, I was like, oh, this is actually a thing. This is not just one really strong reaction. And in that article that I was reading, there was a line about rejection sensitivity often being a part of adhd. It was sort of like, wait a minute, is this like, do I have adhd? And then I started looking more into adhd. I talked to my therapist and it just went from there.

[Laura Key]

Yeah. And now here you are.

[Danielle Elliott]

Here I am.

[Laura Key]

Tell me about the relationship and what was going on.

[Danielle Elliott]

I would say, for the last few months of the relationship, I think we were both, I think the nicest way to say it is like, navigating our way out of it, but nice.

[Laura Key]

I've been there.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah, that's probably the best way to put it. It was a conversation that I think we both knew was coming. I had been away on a work trip for a week, and during that week I had been looking at other apartments. I pointed out the apartment to him that I was like, I'm thinking about moving in there. And in my head it was saying, we don't have to break up, but I could move into my own apartment. Which is. And I apparently, I know this now. As we drove by it, his thought was like, oh, okay, good. I don't have to feel bad about the thing I'm about to say to her tonight. So then it was just like, when we got home, I remember being completely exhausted. And I've often wondered if this played into my reaction. But it was as we were starting to fall asleep that he initiated a conversation that was like, I've been thinking this week and I feel like I'm holding you back. He said it very nicely, but I just had this reaction that was like, just. It felt out of character. Like, I kind of don't remember the specific details of everything that was said. My reaction was very much like, this is it. We're not going back from here. And I was taking frames off the walls. Like, all of my stuff was packed that same night by, like, 4:00 clock in the morning.

[Laura Key]

Oh, wow.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. And there Wasn't like screaming, but it was just like the feeling in my body was even like, I feel like I was the meanest I've ever been. He tells me that I'm like, we're friends now. We've talk. He's like, I think you're a little hard on yourself about how it went. But it was just such a visceral reaction. And the thing I finally came down to was like, yeah, it was a thing I had also been thinking about doing but didn't. And it felt like such a strong rejection in the moment. I think I got straight out of bed and got in the chair across the room, that kind of thing. And then was like a kid curled up in a ball. In a weird way, too.

[Laura Key]

Yeah. I mean, breakups are really hard.

[Danielle Elliott]

Well, the breakup was for the best.

[Laura Key]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Danielle Elliott]

Literally, that part wasn't. That's why I couldn't understand why I was still feeling so weird about.

[Laura Key]

About it.

[Danielle Elliott]

I was feeling weird about how I acted.

[Laura Key]

You telling that story. I hear you. That it was like, it was a big deal. And this visceral reaction has led you down this path of exploration. I've been in some breakups. That doesn't sound that bad to me.

[Danielle Elliott]

I think I, in hindsight, was able to see how successfully I've avoided rejection my entire life. That I was kind of sort of like, oh, this is the thing I've been avoiding. And this really does. Yeah, this is not fun.

[Laura Key]

Okay.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah.

[Laura Key]

Yeah. So not an unusually flared up, dramatic breakup scenario, but for you, in the context of your life, I mean, I.

[Danielle Elliott]

Can tell you that, like, three or four. I don't know when I saw him again. Cause I went straight. I, like, I remember my passport was being renewed, and it came back three days later. And two days after that, I was in Mexico City and I stayed for a month. And then I went to Belize. I was like, I'm out of here. But I know that whenever I saw him again, I remember him telling me that I should get my anger checked. So I think I was mean.

[Laura Key]

Okay.

[Danielle Elliott]

I was like. But he now said. I don't know if that was more his reaction, because he now is like, no, I don't think you were actually that bad that night.

[Laura Key]

Yeah.

[Danielle Elliott]

In the moment it felt bad.

[Laura Key]

I mean, he was probably feeling.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah, I'm sure you're feeling sensitivity. Yeah.

[Laura Key]

As well.

[Danielle Elliott]

And I don't think we'd gotten in a single fight our entire relationship. And that was probably more so me bottling some things up and, like, masking throughout the relationship, but it definitely caught him off guard.

[Laura Key]

So you probably. You tell me you felt like you went from 0 to 100.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yes.

[Laura Key]

But in reality, maybe it was 99 to 100, and you had been kind of holding it in.

[Danielle Elliott]

I mean, there were other moments in our relationship, and I know now that this is a very ADHD thing, but I regulated by completely shutting down. And in this moment, I didn't shut down. I just let it all out. I think it had felt to me a few times like if I said what I really thought the relationship would end up, and in this moment, it was already over. So I could say whatever I wanted because I was no longer risking anything.

[Laura Key]

I mean, I've kind of been a little bit cheeky in my responses to you, but I do. I hear you. Like, it's really painful. I've just. Some of the situations that I've been in have been. I look back and I. I do one of these, like, ugh. I don't even want to think about it because I'm so ashamed of the way that I. It's mortifying. I'm like, I was so childish. I was so petulant. What was I doing with my body? My. Why did I raise my voice like that? Why did I flail, like, almost like, going from the rejection to the. What some people call raging, which is an unfortunate term, but it packs a lot of punch as a word.

[Danielle Elliott]

In an interesting way, I think the relationship itself helped me recognize my adhd. Once I knew how ADHD shows up in relationships, then I started looking back, because it's like, I think you can think that you've started to regulate your emotions and you've grown up and you, you know, you're in your mid-30s. And then I just started to realize that there were a lot of situations I had never been in because I hadn't been in a relationship. I hadn't been living with a part partner.

[Laura Key]

Yeah.

[Danielle Elliott]

And seeing how I acted in those, I was like, I'm not as mature as I thought I was.

[Laura Key]

Well, didn't have the experience with those situations because you'd been bouncing around.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. And I'd been avoiding those situations my whole life.

[Laura Key]

Bouncing around in. Sounds like you travel a lot. And then I know from the show that you talked about that that was the first serious relationship you'd had. Or.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. I joke that it was the longest relationship I've had, but I've been in longer breakups. Like, I've been in, like, situationships that lasted a lot longer.

[Laura Key]

Situations.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah.

[Laura Key]

Yeah.

[Danielle Elliott]

That's probably the best thing to call them.

[Laura Key]

So tell me about the feeling that you get when you are on the go. Talk to me about this need to travel. It's something that you've mentioned a few times on climbing the walls.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah.

[Laura Key]

Tell me what that feels like. And does it work out the way that you hope it will work out?

[Danielle Elliott]

I think it always did work out a certain way, and then it shifted. Actually, shortly after finding out I had adhd, I remember I got the diagnosis. And then I was sort of aware that I should be finding an apartment, but a friend of mine was going to Peru for a month, and I was like, oh, great. Apartments in Peru are 600 bucks a month and the flight's 200. Like, I've my rent here would be 3,000amonth. You know, I did the math and was like, of course I'm going to Peru for a month. I don't have an apartment yet. I'll just do this first. I remember specifically not telling my therapist I was going because she would have a reaction because I had just gotten back from this, like, Mexico and Belize. And then I stayed home long enough to get diagnosed and then immediately went to Peru, and I think I had to go to Aspen for work for a week. So I went straight from Aspen to Peru, and when I did get there, I was on a telehealth appointment with my therapist. And she just was like, it's the first time I saw her seemed completely just, like, exasperated with me. And she was just like, danielle, what are you running from? How dare you? I don't think. And I thought about it, and then I was like, I mean, my immediate reaction was, I don't think I'm running from anything. And then I thought about it a little more, and I was like, I feel like I'm running towards something. And, like, the thing that I think with traveling that I always feel like I'm running towards is stimulation. I guess if I was gonna put it in ADHD terms, it's like, when you get to a new place, I never look things up before I go. I leave my phone, and I just walk outside and then just figure out a day. And I think, we don't get that anymore at home. Everything's so planned, or it's just like. I don't know. I guess you could call it the sense of discovery. Like, it just doesn't exist for me at home in the same way anymore. So I think that's what I get out of traveling is just, like, completely new surroundings. No idea What I'm doing and being forced to figure it all out.

[Laura Key]

Yeah, the novelty.

[Danielle Elliott]

The novelty, yeah.

[Laura Key]

Do you think you would have discovered that you had ADHD sooner had you not been able to travel for your career in your life?

[Danielle Elliott]

I don't know if I would have discovered it sooner because even like 2013, I was in grad school and my advisor always joked like that I had shiny ball syndrome. And I remember one of my professors saying that I was always doing two things at once, even in class, but that she had started to notice that I seemed to focus better if I was doing two things. So she stopped asking me to stop, even if I was just looking at things on an iPad or whatnot. I think people have actually been telling me I have ADHD my whole life without even knowing that's what they were telling me.

[Laura Key]

Oh, interesting.

[Danielle Elliott]

I think that's where I'm going with that statement.

[Laura Key]

I'm just thinking about if you can't scratch that itch of novelty through travel, would you have tried something else or would it have bubbled over and like, it would.

[Danielle Elliott]

It's such a good question. Yeah, because I switched. It was like, yeah, like traveling. But I've also. I've been in New York since 2008 and I switched apartments every single year. So I managed to just make my life about constant change in almost every possible way.

[Laura Key]

Hold on, I dropped it.

[Danielle Elliott]

For better or worse. Yeah, Yeah.

[Laura Key]

I can't go on without my fidget. Yeah. Do you want a different one?

[Danielle Elliott]

By the way, I'm kind of liking this one. I don't know.

[Laura Key]

Squishy one.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. I really like this one. And I don't know that I thought it was a problem. I guess that's the other thing is like, I don't think I ever thought anything was wrong until it was like, oh my God, that's how I act in relationships. Like that's who I am or that's how I react to a breakup. I want to know if there's ways to be better at this. Career wise, I was happy with how things were going. There were definitely a lot of moments where I wished I was capable of working for one company and wanting to stay there. But I would hit. There was one time I had a full time job for two years and I hit the one year mark and was like, really? It was like some sort of itch. And then at the second year I quit because I. I was like, I just can't do this. And I think I've been really lucky that things have lined up Every time I do something like that. But things could have gotten much worse.

[Laura Key]

Listeners of this show know that the very first episode I shared my own ADHD story and the impetus for my discovering I had ADHD was also a breakup. And a very, very dramatic breakup that left me kind of reeling and like, I gotta figure out what's going on with me. And it was a slow path to discovery. And I'm still, I'm like one eighth of the way through it.

[Danielle Elliott]

But like.

[Laura Key]

But is it too personal if I ask you, have you been in a serious relationship since then?

[Danielle Elliott]

No, I haven't. I've dated a few people since then, but I'm now, I think, so much. Well, I think I had always had questions about how happy I would be in a relationship to begin with. I think I was 34 or 35 when that relationship started. And I was becoming extremely aware that, like, people thought it was weird that I like, even. It was almost like you didn't get as much of a chance with people because they're like, you've never been in a relationship. I don't want to teach you how to be in a relationship. You know, like, there's like a. So I think I was feeling rejection in that sense. And there is a part of me sometimes that thinks the relationship lasted as long as it did because I was like, no, I'm gonna have this. Almost like, I don't know, I just. It was like, no, no, no, I'm gonna know what it's like to stick it out.

[Laura Key]

Yeah, I'm gonna win at this relationship.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah, exactly. And I'm gonna at least know what it's like to have been in one for two years and see what that's like.

[Laura Key]

In one of the episodes of Climbing the Walls you share audio from was your sister's wedding. You were the maid of honor and there was like some self deprecating humor about your relationship experience. I think you referred to yourself as, like, erratic or. I actually wrote it down. See, I have a note card, like, refusing to grow up.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. And I think I was kind of internalizing what everyone around me was saying. Like, I think everyone was always like, are you ever gonna settle down? Are you ever gonna pick one? Are you ever gonna do this? And there was a part of me that was like, I don't even know if it's all me not picking. There's also like, I haven't met someone that makes sense to me.

[Laura Key]

And that's not a requirement.

[Danielle Elliott]

It's not a requirement, exactly.

[Laura Key]

Talking with you is making Me realize that there may be a lot more people with RSD Rejection sensitivity dysphoria, but they're not experiencing it because they're anticipating it and they're just avoiding it.

[Danielle Elliott]

I mean, for me, it's even like, if I send a pitch, even if I get a response from an editor quickly, it usually takes me almost like two or three days to open it because I don't want it to be a rejection. And it's like, sometimes it's an acceptance, but they want to have a conversation. They're like, can you talk later today? And now I've wasted three days. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry I didn't get back to. But it's like my fear of, like, I don't mind putting things out there, but I don't really want to know how anyone reacts to it.

[Laura Key]

Good for you, though. I mean, that's. I was going to ask you about work too. So rejection sensitivity as a journalist. Let's talk more about that.

[Danielle Elliott]

I think that I'm so much more confident in work than I am in dating that the sensitivity doesn't get to me as much. I think it's also easier to not take it personally. I don't think there's a journalist in the world who hasn't heard. Editors are swamped. Like, if they don't read your pitch, it has nothing to do with you or your pitch. And there was also a couple pieces where, like, you can keep going back to an editor without seeming desperate in the way that there's so many tropes about women being desperate that, like, in dating, you're not gonna, like, keep trying again with the same person. With an editor, you can try a thousand times and it might be like a dark. And I'm like, you don't know me from ad. This is fine. It doesn't show up for me in pitching. It shows up for me in publishing. Like, I sort of just wanna, like, hide under a rock for days after something comes out. And I don't wanna know what anyone thinks of it. I don't know what that is, but I think it's like. I think time I write anything about anyone, I'm sure they're going to call me and, like, ream me out of them.

[Laura Key]

Have. It's never happened before.

[Danielle Elliott]

It's never happened. I'm just so sure. So that's probably how it shows up. But then it's already out in the world, so I can't do anything about it.

[Laura Key]

Well, now that climbing the Walls is out. You're here, you didn't hide. Congratulations.

[Danielle Elliott]

It's not out yet.

[Laura Key]

When we. When this goes up, it will have gone out yet.

[Danielle Elliott]

Okay, sorry.

[Laura Key]

All right, so tell adhd. Aha. Listeners, what is climbing the walls about?

[Danielle Elliott]

Climbing the walls is my attempt to understand the rise in diagnosis among women, primarily during the pandemic. But it's been ongoing since the pandemic. I guess you could say it's my attempt to go beyond the headlines and the quick summaries of why so many women are being diagnosed with ADHD now.

[Laura Key]

And the quick summary being, oh, we.

[Danielle Elliott]

Just didn't know how it affects women. And that's just, you know, in episodes one and two, we debunk that right away. I think we've known for a long time. We just weren't necessarily willing to listen.

[Laura Key]

When we started talking about this, I was like, oh, this is going to be about the pandemic and the rise of TikTok. That's all this is going to be about. And it goes so much deeper than that. It's really, really stunning work, and I'm so excited for everybody to listen to it. What made you want to do this?

[Danielle Elliott]

I really. I think, like, whenever I do something that's sort of this deeper dive, it's a question that I'm asking. And I think one of the things I love about having this job is that I would just ask that question for another 10 years without actually digging into it.

[Laura Key]

Yes.

[Danielle Elliott]

That by having this as a job, there's a reason. It comes back to motivation, I guess.

[Laura Key]

Totally.

[Danielle Elliott]

I remember in the first conversation with my therapist, I was rejecting the diagnosis at first. Cause I was like, I don't want to have this. Everything I read is that women who have this struggle in relationships forever. And I don't wanna struggle in relationships forever. This is the thing I wanted to fix about myself, I guess. I just remember saying to her, almost not expressing anger towards her individually, but towards kind of the entire field. But I was like, how did we miss this? Not just in me. I had been seeing her for four years, and when I said I had it or when I asked her about it, she stepped forward so fast and was like, yes, yes, I do. But I can't say that to you, so take the self assessment. And I was like, how did we miss this? Not just in me, but in an entire generation of women. This is not right.

[Laura Key]

As a member of the team here at Understood and as an editor and getting to listen as this has been created, it's just. I'M learning so much about myself as a woman with ADHD as I'm listening to these episodes and I'm curious, what have you learned about yourself through the creation of this show?

[Danielle Elliott]

There's an episode where I'm with a group of women who have ADHD for almost an entire week. And I don't think I realized how universal a lot of the things are that a lot of women with ADHD experience. And that ended up becoming episode five. And in that episode, just the conversations that I had, the conversations that never made it into the show, it was like I was just hearing people express my inner thoughts for an entire week. And it was really interesting to realize, like, we all grew up in different circumstances, but also the same in a way. Hearing them describe their childhood experiences, it all just. I think that's the biggest thing I've learned is that I'm like, this is maybe a strange thing to say, but that I'm not all that unique. Like, actually, like, so many of the things that I thought were slightly different about me are actually not. Once you start talking to other women with adhd. Yeah.

[Laura Key]

I mean, your life surrounding the scenario obviously is extremely unique, but. Yeah, I understand. I mean, with ADHD high, we speak to. I think we're past our hundredth episode now and it's just like, isn't this going to get repetitive? Isn't this going to get boring? But no, there's so many different ways that ADHD impacts people's lives, but there is that kind of. That universality.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. There's something relatable in the episodes that I've heard. Like, it's. I can relate to all of the stories that I've heard on the podcast too, you know. Yeah. Universality is a good way to put it.

[Laura Key]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You talk to so many experts and obviously to women with ADHD throughout the course of this. It's a six episode series. What conversation was particularly resonant to you? I know it's hard to choose amongst.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah, no, I think it was the conversation with there's a woman in that episode. In episode five. I would say all of the conversations in that one, but especially two conversations in that one. One was with a woman who was only. She was coming to this camp for her children and two weeks before camp, she was diagnosed with ADHD herself. And it came completely out of nowhere. And that conversation just. It reminded me of. I think sometimes you can think you haven't really learned anything about your ADHD or like progressed at all with managing your adhd. And speaking to someone who was right at the beginning of having been diagnosed reminded me of how much I have learned and how much I think I have started managing it better. And then there was a conversation with a woman who was in her 70s. She puts perspective on the diagnosis and on the rise in diagnosis that. It just really helped me see it in a. Like, yeah, you live in the moment you live in, and you only get to enjoy the amount of progress that has been made up to that moment.

[Laura Key]

It's really intimate, the show. It's so impressive to me, the way that you tackle these really heady kind of scientific ideas, but then the humanity that's brought in with, like. But this is really a huge deal for the women it impacts. Was there any conversation with an expert or anything that you like, a fact that you learned along the way that just kind of blew your mind, that you had no idea before you started the work on this show?

[Danielle Elliott]

When I read Sari's first book, it blew my mind. So a lot of what Sari and I talk about on episode two, when I first sort of encountered the information, it blew my mind. And that's what led me to call Sari for the interview.

[Laura Key]

And she is. Can you explain?

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. Sari Soldan is a woman who wrote a book in the mid-90s called Women with Attention Deficit Disorder. And she describes it just to a T, Kind of like the feelings and the emotional experience of having ADHD, particularly for women.

[Laura Key]

And in the 90s, that's.

[Danielle Elliott]

And in the 90s, THAT was groundbreaking. It was actually kind of rejected by a lot of the powers that be, Will. So I think her findings were the most surprising to me. And then the final episode is all about research that's being conducted into female hormones and adhd. And there's several surprises in that one. One, just realizing I assumed I didn't know much about hormones and ADHD because I hadn't looked into it then in trying to. I think we. I have no idea how many. It was, like four or five actual versions of that episode that we wrote then before we finally landed on one that was working. But trying to report on the absence of something is really difficult, and I don't think I've done that very much. We did finally find some research that's being conducted. But I think that, in a sense, that episode is about the absence of research, which is a tough story to tell. It's a story about something that doesn't exist.

[Laura Key]

I mean, just the ground that you cover in six episodes is so phenomenal. Right. Because it's a show about the rise of ADHD diagnoses in women. Right. And why that happened. But it's also a history of adhd, which is really interesting in and of itself that you add this gendered layer on top of it, you have personal stories, and then it's really about what's next, what do we actually need? If you could sum up, what do we need, what would you say?

[Danielle Elliott]

Personally, I think we need treatments that consider female hormones and how those affect, not only how they affect ADHD symptoms, but also how they affect ADHD medications.

[Laura Key]

Right.

[Danielle Elliott]

And this is true, I think not just in adhd, it's true in. We're starting to realize it's true in many other things. We're seeing it with Alzheimer's, we're most likely going to start seeing it with dementia. But we need treatments that are actually individualized to each person. And I don't want to say that are gendered, because I don't think that's exactly the right way to say it. But women and men do not experience any illnesses, conditions, any mental health differences in the same way because they don't have the same bodies. There's a study coming out of the risk lab, Dr. Martell, that looks at young adult women. The one we talk about in episode six is about adolescent girls because that's the one that exists right now. But Dr. Martell's study is gonna come out hopefully. I have no idea what's happening with funding. I mean, the episode also gets into funding used to exist, and that's a whole nother story.

[Laura Key]

And it's a great start. And we need, like, we need so much more of these because how many years of catch up are we doing?

[Danielle Elliott]

Exactly?

[Laura Key]

Right. So one of the things that I appreciate about this show is that you tackle it from every angle, every possible angle that say, an ADHD hater might have. Like, is it even real? Is it actually different in men and women? Is it being over diagnosed? Were we. Is this like an evolution related thing? Like, so maybe it's not all ADHD haters, but like the really, like the, the questions, the glossy questions. Yeah, sometimes they're from haters and sometimes they're not.

[Danielle Elliott]

Right.

[Laura Key]

And, and just done in such a balanced way. And I really appreciate that. What was the most interesting of all those questions to tackle or the most difficult.

[Danielle Elliott]

I think over diagnosis was really difficult to tackle and how situational ADHD can be. And I think it's that like ADHD is always there, but it does express itself differently in Different. And I'm saying situational instead of environmental because I think environmental gets confusing. But like situation or environment that you're in, I think that was the hardest one for me to tackle because I think a lot of things have changed in the world in the last hundred or two hundred years and I don't think our brains have fully adapted. And I just. I had a really hard time grappling with. Is this something about the way the world is now? There's a book called. I believe the book's called Neurodivergent Mind. Just kept wanting to throw the book across the room. Cause it's essentially like the conditions we live in compound symptoms in a way that is leading to like ADHD as a diagnosis is when it's impairing your life. And I think that a lot of people have lived with ADHD for a really long time, but it didn't impair their lives.

[Laura Key]

Right.

[Danielle Elliott]

So I think that was the biggest thing for me to grapple with was like, what is happening in the world that's causing a lot of this?

[Laura Key]

And it's a particularly hard one to grapple with because you. In this world that we live in, if you start talking about things as a trait that could be a favorable trait and then balance that with like. But this is like there's deficits here. This is a disorder. It's like you don't want to go so rosy that people don't take it seriously. Right, right. Or that it's not something that needs to be reckoned with. Because my take is that. My take that you spoon fed to me in the best possible way is that we need this research. We need to learn more about what's going on because it does impact people's lives, women's lives in unique and really difficult ways.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah.

[Laura Key]

So it's hard to tackle that and to give it credence. Give credence to the like. There are positive things here. And.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. And I think it's almost the advantages. Disadvantages, Conversation or deficits and positive sides.

[Laura Key]

Strengths.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. And strengths. Thank you. Conversation becomes such a black and white conversations and things can coexist. You know, like there can be situations in which it's advantageous and situations in which it's a deficit. Yeah. So I think that there's still a little bit of black and white thinking around that. So that was a lot to grapple with too.

[Laura Key]

You balance that nuance really nicely in the show. You know, ADHD diagnoses in women rising. Overall, this is a positive thing that there's more awareness about what's going on. And I'm just so grateful to what you've been doing. I mean, this. How long have you been working on the show?

[Danielle Elliott]

I think that I first met with Neil Drummings, the editor on the show, and I think we've. Yeah, definitely. Shout out Neil. The show is only as good as it is because of him. I think we first met and talked about it maybe exactly a year ago.

[Laura Key]

Well, I'm so glad that you two found each other and that you're here doing the show. I'm so proud of adhd. Aha. And what we do on this show. It's much easier to make a conversation show than it is to do what you're doing. So I just want to express that to the people who are listening or watching right now that, like, this is. This is different. This is a very deep, very thoughtful. Not that adhd. Aha. Isn't thoughtful, but body of work.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Laura Key]

That is a long time in the making because it needed to be a long time in the making because we had to get it right and we had to get it right to be high quality. So I'm so excited for everybody to hear it. It's out now. You have to. Everybody go check it out. Climbing the walls. Wait, do you want to talk about where the title of the show comes from before we sign off? Yeah.

[Danielle Elliott]

The title of the show comes from an interview with a woman named Terry Matlin. She's been treating women with ADHD since the 90s, and during the pandemic, she received more emails than she's ever received with women seeking treatment. And she said these women were just climbing the wal, like they needed help. And yeah, that's where the name of the show.

[Laura Key]

I just got chills again. I remember when you, when you all landed on the title, I was like, that's it. That's perfect. Danielle, thank you for trusting me with your story. It really is helpful for our listeners to hear about it and to get to know you better because they're going to get to know you on Climbing the Walls. And so now they have a little bit more information.

[Danielle Elliott]

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

[Laura Key]

Yeah, thanks for coming. Thanks for listening today as always. If you want to share your own aha moment, email [e-mail] I'd love to hear from you and check out the show notes for this episode. We have more resources and links to anything we mentioned in the episode. This show is brought to you by Understood.org Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, [e-mail] give ADHD AHA is produced and edited by Jessamyn Molly. Say hi Jessamyn. Hi everyone. And Margie Desantis.

[Danielle Elliott]

Hey hey.

[Laura Key]

Samiya Adams is our supervising producer. Video is produced, produced by Calvin Knee and edited by Alyssa Shea. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Brianna Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. From Understood.org, our executive directors are Scott Cochere and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.

[Danielle Elliott]

SA.