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- [00:00]
A
Josh, who are you and why are you here?
- [00:03]
B
I'm Josh Moorer. I make Wave, the AI recording app.
- [00:08]
A
How much money do you currently make?
- [00:09]
B
It's at about 6 million ARR, maybe more. Interesting. People use it to record about 8,000 hours of audio each day. Most of that audio is in physical spaces, like around tables like this, or at the doctor, or on a walk and talk or things like this. We also do zoom recording and all the online meetings. But the vast majority of the use case is just recording audio in physical space, getting back words for that audio and then a summary.
- [00:39]
A
Gotcha. Okay, so when you first start wanting to build out this app, you didn't really have much if, if any real coding experience before that, yet now you run one of the most high grossing apps in that short of a time period in the AI space. How did you start learning how to code and being able to assemble something like this from scratch without any knowledge of it before?
- [01:03]
B
So the process was sort of baby steps. Make me an app that does this. And it was a one page app for the iPhone. It would record, transcribe through an API, but from the phone, send it out, wait, get the text, send that out to OpenAI, get the summary back all from the phone. And I found that.
- [01:23]
A
So you're basically like prompting ChatGPT, call.
- [01:25]
B
Me ChatGPT, but the phone is doing all the operations. But if you close the app, if you swiped away to another app while it was working, cause it takes a few minutes to do all the process, it would drop. And so that is how I learned about servers of like why a server would be a useful thing to have for this. Like actually let's just make the phone do the audio, upload the audio and then the user can go away and when we're ready, we'll send the data back to the phone. There was a kind of really like baby step education of learning those things the hard way.
- [02:03]
A
You mentioned in those first like six to eight months of the app, a lot of people are like, what is this? Like what does this actually do? How does this help me? And then you had a moment that completely changed everything where you made a decision and then the app pretty much skyrocketed. It went from a very low number in ARR to doing a million plus very, very quickly. What, what was the concept of the app before and what did you do to change it? To have that exponential growth in a very short period of time?
- [02:32]
B
Doing videos on meta really hit. Like there weren't a lot of apps doing what I was doing. And so user acquisition was. Was very economic. Like I was able to do it in a way that made sense. And that's where a lot of the growth happened last year it was like doubling every month until a pretty late stage. Then a lot of copycat showed up. And that's sort of a very interesting, you know, very interesting experience to see apps that are pixel replicas of your app. That's, I think a common experience in the App Store wasn't angry about it. It was just sort of like, wow, I think I'm onto something here. It made it harder to capture, to sort of to acquire new users because there's a bunch of apps doing similar things. So I've had to kind of innovate on that. But I think there wasn't really a change that happened in the early days. I started spending on ads after it became clear that there was some there there. So probably at like 10k mrr before I started doing ads and I wanted to make sure roas. I'm not sure how technical on these sort of terms. The audience Return on ad spend.
- [03:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:46]
B
Return on ad spend. Wanted. I didn't want to like invest in the future. I wanted it to be paid back now. So the growth was careful. On meta, I worked with some folks who are really good at that stuff and so that's sort of how it got big in the beginning. But a lot of it has been talking to users, letting them give feedback. I have like an upvoting system for feedback and so the things that people want, I'll sort of build for them and try to make sure that the app works the way it's supposed to, as close to all the time as it can.
- [04:20]
A
So you mentioned you really started to put money into paid acquisition once you hit that 10k MRR number. What about before that? What were you doing to help get to that first $10,000 a month?
- [04:31]
B
I think the App Store is underrated in its ability to drive the discovery of good apps. So what I mean by that is I think I was building something that people kind of knew they wanted, like AI NoteTaker. Like that makes sense. It's going to take notes with an AI. So I started just getting search volume. I found the audience on LinkedIn was much more interested in what I was doing than anywhere else. I started talking about it on LinkedIn, doing a bunch of updates, emailing out. I think new technologies like then wave people like talking about. I did some podcasts like this early on. I wouldn't say I'm Notable in tech, but I have more than zero audience because of Uber. That probably helped. And I think the story has been interesting. Like, you know, making an app, which is a technical endeavor without technical experience. That's a topic of the moment. And so I think I've written that a bit as well.
- [05:34]
A
I heard a story that when you were first starting out Wave, your mom kind of thought of the project as like a retirement project. How did that fuel you and what were you thinking behind the scenes?
- [05:47]
B
I probably said that somewhere. Yeah, I mean, I think now they know, but it didn't. The. So if you do $500 in revenue in month one and then a thousand in month two and two thousand in month three, to many people that will seem small and not worthwhile. But I think I knew when that happened, I was like, oh, no, there are some there, there, like growth, even super fast growth, doesn't actually just happen overnight. Like, it takes some kind of smooth, like, multiplier, a consistent compounding every month kind of multiplier. So. So I probably saw the signals that it was working before normal people in my life. And I had done Uber and I did pretty well from that. And I had. Did vc, which I think to casual observers also feels like a retirement gig. And so it was sort of like. And I was working at levels for a bit, this tech startup in healthcare. I was there for a couple years. ChatGPT rolled out kind of the week after I quit that job. So I was sort of like on hiatus. This happened, right? Perfect timing. And I think my parents or my mom, Elise was like, it's great. Like, you have a nice little hobby that's super fun. You made an app. That's awesome. And I think I joked that it wasn't clear to people around me at the time. It was clear to myself that there was something here, that it was small, but the growth rate was there. And I was getting signals that indicated to me it was worth chasing. And so there was just a time differential there, you know, between people in my life who know me personally and my family who are like, that's Josh's little, like, hobby side project. To like, oh, this is like in some ways the most serious thing he's ever done.
- [07:35]
A
Yeah, I also noticed that because when we started our company, we were very, very, very small. Like, first month we did like 2500 bucks. The second month was like four grand. And it's like very, very small to most people. So I think I told my parents about it and like, okay, nice. You got a. You got A nice little thing going, but still go to school, still do the traditional pass, still do all that. And then so I just kind of kept it under the hood until, like, we reached our first big revenue mark of. I think it was like 20 to 20k a month back in January. And then I told my dad about it, and then he was like, whoa, what? And I think. I think you're right. Like, from the early stage, especially when you're building out a company, a lot of people think of you as, like, kind of delusional. Um, and it's one of the things that I've noticed that if you really want to do something extraordinary, people have to see you as insane at, like, at 19. Now we're adding like 100k and ARR every month. But it's not because I'm smarter than every everybody else. It's because I move like it's life or death. And I think you. You did a very similar thing with how hard you pushed at Wave. And I think it's one of the things I've noticed that you have to push so hard that everybody else calls you delusional, and that's a sign you're doing something right.
- [08:47]
B
It's not a good strategy. It's the only strategy. Right? I mean, and I think my situation and to complain about this is obscene. My situation is a little bit different. And I think part of why I am a little, like, flamboyant about the numbers is because I think almost no one will relate to this. And it's almost a silly thing to even bring up, but I think, like, in the shadow of a previous large success, it was important to me. I really didn't want to be riding the coattails of what I did at Uber for the rest of my life. And I love that we spent like a minute on and we're all about this. I just. It doesn't feel good at the time, you know, I finished uber at age 35 and was like, is that it? Sort of like. Like I was on a big hit show and then the show's over. I was in a band and we had our one hit and it's over. Like, that doesn't feel good. And I felt like doing something. The next thing, I had to be clear to the public or to anyone that I care to have understand this. I had to be explicit. And I think transparency, it may be invited copycats, but I think more importantly, it signaled that this is real, that I want to share that this is possible, that if you work hard, even if You've never done it before. It's doable, like all that stuff, but it's important. But I really wanted to shift the perception that this was like a retirement, that I'm like, I could be doing golf or I could be playing, you know, or, you know, whatever, or I could be doing this. It's like, no, I'm taking this with the seriousness of a first thing, even though it's not a first thing.
- [10:30]
A
Yeah, I think that's a really important piece. So you built it out. You're now at around 6 million in arrow. You have no engineers, no co founders, no investors, all bootstrapped. And you still, like you mentioned earlier, still do customer support. How do you balance your time?
- [10:47]
B
Badly. But let me correct some of that. So there is a new version of the iOS app coming out that was written in Swift and that was done by another engineer. So I did. He's not full time with me, but he's amazing and he works well. It's been his main thing for about six months and he's my guy and. And I still do the support and I probably will for a while. I have a couple people helping on growth in an arm's length type thing. There are no employees. I work in a room by myself in my building on the Upper west side. And I, you know, and I'm open to working with other people, but currently in deployment, the code is basically all me. And that's gonna change as it should. You know, it was for a while about a, like, let me see how far I could take this on my own. The reality is it's been a flat few months. And so I am trying to change things up to get to that next level. Six is good, but it's been six for a few months. I'd like it to be 10. And I think, how do I balance my time? Badly. I think I like to jump around. That's part of the freedom. When a user complains about a thing and they're compelling, I will sometimes drop what I'm doing and sometimes spend a day fixing that thing because I think it's just good practice if you are only ever focused on the most important thing. There are certain things that are permanently the second or third most important thing. And if you're only ever working on the first most important thing, you'll never get to those things. And sometimes it's worthwhile to do that. And I am open to working with other people. Probably not in a full time. You come to the same room that I'm sitting in. Every day or, or maybe even not that you're depending on Wave as your full time thing. But I'm certain, open, certainly open to working with other people.
- [12:39]
A
You mentioned Apple search ads have also been highly contributory to the growth of wave. How do you approach Apple search ads? And how can anyone who might be building an app leverage it to try to grow their app quickly?
- [12:53]
B
So it's true. I do use Apple search ads. I didn't actually say that. I said the Apple search itself is useful because when you give Apple a third of your revenue, you're getting some things back for that. And discoverability and the implicit trust that if I pay money to this app, my credit card's not going to get stolen. I can unsubscribe easily through the centralized dashboard, not even giving a credit card. My credit card's already on file. There's all this psychological stuff that being an app helps. Right. Even if the stripe screen looks the same on every website, it's even easier on an app. So when someone goes to the app store and searches like AI notes and I'm number four as a brand new app or whatever, like that's amazing. Separately I do deploy a ton of Apple search ads if maybe you knew some of that is brand defense. So making sure if someone searches Wave AI or like Wave that I'm up there because competitors bid on them too. So some of it is defensive. Some of it is that Apple's tracking is materially degraded for every advertiser except Apple search ads. So like you, you don't get such good data when you buy an iOS ad on Meta. You get a very good data when you do it on Apple search ads. Because of privacy. Right. And monopoly. Right. And so the Apple search ads have been good. It's probably my single biggest channel at the moment just to sort of sop up all those searches. Like if someone is searching in the App Store, they, they are bottom of the funnel, they're ready to go. This is not discovery. This is like they're here, they're ready, they're there to download, they're there to party and they want to pay you right away. And so I do a bunch of that.
- [14:34]
A
What do you think is what is the user acquisition cost across all of your paid channels and how does that break down?
- [14:40]
B
So like I said, I try to make daily roas like return on ad spending money coming in be more from those ads than the money, you know, going out. That is narrowed. It's gotten harder. So you know, I was able to buy subscribers for 30 or 40 bucks on Meta. And the lifetime value of one is quite a bit higher than that for me. The annuals are great. Monthlies and weeklies are also great. And you know that that worked. That, like, worked until it didn't. It works on Android pretty well. Google Ads work for Android pretty well too. And Apple search ads. I'm trying to get into longer tail stuff. I have a bunch of video makers making kind of like organic seeming TikTok videos, which is a popular way to grow, I'm told. It's a very, very much out of my wheelhouse. The marketing stuff, even though it's where my experience lies, is the least interesting to me. So I try to spend as little time on that as possible.
- [15:48]
A
If somebody is listening to this and, and they're like, okay, I want to be able to get to a position like you might be in today. But all I really have is I don't really have a lot of money and all I have is, like, a laptop and an Internet connection and I want to build something to try to change the world and have an impact on people. What would be your advice to them?
- [16:05]
B
It's easier than ever to get something out there, so you should just do it. And if you're serious, you should do it fast and do it hard. I mean, the reality is there's almost no one who's pulling this off, who isn't busting their ass. It just isn't. And I have a nice life. I take the girls to school every day. I wear sweatpants. I look like shit. The other dads at school are probably like that guy from Uber, just, you know, fucking. Can I curse on your podcast? He just, like, you know, just comes in sweatpants, just probably, like, hangs out with his, like, wife all day. It's like, no, it's just that I work in sweatpants. Like, I walk them to school and I walk home and then I work all day, like, obsessively. You know, I grind super hard all the time. Like, and that isn't a brag. If anything, it's an admission of guilt. But, like, that is actually what it takes. So if you're not down with that, then don't do it. But there's no, like, yeah, I will casually release this product and it will casually do well. Like, from what I can tell, that's not a thing.
- [17:11]
A
And why is speed important?
- [17:13]
B
Like, what's the opposite? The opposite is, oh, I have this idea for an app. I'm gonna make an app. And I've been talking about it for a year and I haven't even started yet. Like, yeah, but okay, like, great. But that is never ever going to happen. Like, that's fine. Everyone should have a dream of what they want to do in a fantasy and like what keeps them going. But it's like to actually do it is you actually have to do it and it's hard. You have to do it all the time a lot, you know. And look, there are like master delegators and managers and the notion of the four hour work week and drop shipping from back in the day. There's all. People love the fairy tale of the kind of like, it's so simple. And I think for a, for a master manager maybe it's possible. But I'm super bad at that. Super bad at that. And like AI has only made me lean in more to my worst sensibilities about doing it all myself.
- [18:05]
A
And let's say they also might have like two or three ideas that they're considering going after. How did they figure out which one is worth pursuing and putting that time and energy into?
- [18:15]
B
I definitely got some feedback from people about. So two years ago I was still in the mode. There's inflection moments. And so I went out to lunch with a buddy. It's actually like my daughter's friend's dad, who was a good friend also now. But it far enough away from me that I knew it wasn't going to be a like, yeah, way to go, Josh. Like, I knew it was going to be true what he said. Having a sense of when someone is real versus your friend is, you know, is important. And so he's like, this feels like the one you should do. And I was still, I still had a couple of other ideas. One was about New York State Senate legislation and having like AI summaries of that because bills come out all the time. And I did like politics a little bit at Uber. It's not what I signed up for, but it was a big part of the job. So I was into that a little bit and I was like, all right, I'll work two weeks on one and two weeks on the other side. And there was like a third thing in the mix too. And then I just found myself on weeks that I was gonna work on the other thing. I was drawn back to wave. I was like, oh, I'd rather just do wave all the time now. I was like, okay, like that's. That gut feeling is pretty strong. I'm gonna not do the other stuff. So that was a big part. And then when people want to give you money, you know, August 2023, I would check for sales every day. One, every three days. I'd get. Then one time I got an annual sale for. It was then 200 bucks. And I was like, I just can't believe. Believe someone is paying to. I can't wait. Someone to buy an annual subscription of anything. Like, that's my. I'll go on record right now. I never buy annual anything. I think that's insane. I only buy month. I don't care how much I'll save because I don't know what I'm going to like in a year. But annual is part of the culture in the App Store for sure. A lot of people do it. It's love at first sight. They want it forever. And when people started buying it annual, I was like, all right. Like, they're speaking with their wallet, you know, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna listen. And it felt generic enough that the audience is big. Presumably everyone could have one. And then that user feedback is just like, when so. And actually, if someone tells you in a fiery rage how much they hate your app, that is also a good signal because it means you've upset them on such a deep level that there was something important happening. So I get these days more positive than negative. Definitely get some negatives. But the ferocity of those comments, I think there's signal in that. The, like, how much I hate this or how much I love this.
- [20:42]
A
What do they like, you know, the.
- [20:45]
B
Occasion is like, oh, I was recording and something happened. I was like, it says in the logs that your phone rang. And like, I can't help that. Apple has a limitation that when your phone rings, audio recording stops. That's true in the Apple app. And I spent like a year making that better so that it resumes and signals to you that you should turn off ringer and go into not disturb mode. All this. All these things. Like. But, you know, I was. I was trusting it and it was. And it. And it. And it failed, you know, And I'm telling you that a little bit as a joke, although it is true, but also just people who are like, I get a heartfelt note every day that I screenshot and send to my wife. And I'm like, look, you know, this helped me. I was with my father who was in hospice, and it helped me navigate that process. Like, life's most important moments happen away from your desk. They're not always the meetings, though. Sometimes they're the meetings. But they're also Just everything else and remembering stuff is hard and being in the moment is hard. And you know, you could argue whether the, whether like humanity is ready for an always on recording. I have some opinions about that, but they're ready for a sometimes recording. And I think it's really hitting with a lot of people.
- [22:01]
A
And to wrap it up, we have a few closing questions that we like to end with. One of which is what do you think is the number one trait that makes a great entrepreneur?
- [22:15]
B
You know, I think relentlessness, being able to run through a brick wall, but I don't evaluate entrepreneurs and I don't really like doing so like VC wasn't so good for me in that way. I'm not great at sizing people up from one conversation. Some people are great at that. Maybe I needed Wave for all those moments, you know, But I think relentlessness, a little bit of obsession, you know, for those early stages, at least for the like 0 to 1, just being crazy.
- [22:49]
A
And what do you think is the best piece of advice you've ever received?
- [22:54]
B
I even heard you ask another guest that on a previous episode and you think I'd been like, he's going to ask me this. But I didn't. I think at Uber, Travis was one of our values, which was sort of in some ways a silly exercise, but one of the values was be yourself. And the success I've had in endeavors have often been correlated to how much people were accepting of me being myself. And at Uber, Travis, before they were called, our cultural values said just do, just be you. Like you the way you are, faults and all, is the right way to be for this, for what we're doing here. So be you. And situations where I've been allowed to lean into the way I am have been successful. At Wave, it's just me. So I can be, you know, I only have to negotiate with my family, there's no boss. So be yourself because that'll probably, you know, it's just hard to not be, I think.
- [24:05]
A
And on the contrary, what do you think is the worst piece of advice you've ever received?
- [24:10]
B
The worst piece of advice? Oh, I mean, well, I don't know, but I think there's a whole. I was so steeped in the venture backed universe that sometimes, like if Wave were to stay at 6 million ARR. With net revenue where it is now, indefinitely, that would be awesome because I've only worked in venture backed startups. First derivative is important. And so just as 500amonth, 1000amonth, 2000amonth is doubling every month, first derivative is important to me. And having a first derivative, meaning how fast it's growing or shrinking, being flat getting gives me some anxiety. Like, why shouldn't I still be doubling every month? Because at Uber that was how it was the whole time. It's like just kept not doubling every month, but the, you know, 6% a week indefinitely, you know, really, that's like doubling every six months, I think, or something like that. And so it's like that sort of drive. You forget that it's. If it's, if it's just a business, it's not venture backed, it doesn't have to become a unicorn. I kept. I'm always asked, will Wave be the first solo unicorn? And it's like, I reject the question because unicorn is a construct of venture capital, which is fine and useful in many scenarios. But no, no one will ever value Wave at a billion dollars for a bunch of reasons. But one of them is that it'll never be valued in that arbitrary, artificial way. Like it's just a business that makes money. It's the corner store of the future. I sell AI. I'm a store, I work in a shop. And of course I'm the one sweeping the thing every day because I own it. I'm the shopkeep. So I turn up to work every day and I sell my wares on the Internet and people come in and they talk with me and I talk with them and they buy it or they don't. And I do that every day and it does. Great.
- [26:11]
A
And next up, what is your most controversial opinion?
- [26:17]
B
My most controversial opinion? I go with the crowds, man. I don't have any controversial opinions. I don't know.
- [26:23]
A
None.
- [26:24]
B
I don't know that I think AI wearables will not be a thing. I don't care if jony I've makes it or if it's the rewind guys or friend.com or whatever. Like, I just don't where the culture is. I mean, look, I was like, travis, I don't think UberX is a good idea. People don't want to get into cars with random strangers. I was like, travis, I don't think Uber eats. Why are we going to get into food delivery? So I have like a record of super bad calls about that. That's not what you're asking though, I don't think. But I sort of feel like my a little more nuanced view is that I don't think wearables are going to happen in mass market. I think people, people, it's sort of like. I don't think actually people want to be recorded all the time. I think they want to be recorded in specific times. I don't think that that's. I think a lot of folks think that. So I don't think that that's controversial. Most controversial view of all time. There was nothing wrong with Uber in 17. Really? Yeah, of course not.
- [27:28]
A
What if, if people are starting to get comfortable with being recorded partially. So before maybe like five, 10 years ago, nobody's being recorded really now people are getting comfortable with being recorded part of the time. Do you think it will eventually transition where everyone's just recording everybody all the time and then they'll get comfortable with that too?
- [27:48]
B
Well, I don't know because there's a competitor who I will not name because they've raised a gajillion dollars and they're beautiful and awesome and I hate them. They are doing background recording. So I see the, like wearable is one direction. The passive recording system, audio on your computer not visible to people on the meeting is sort of the opposite direction. Right. The sort of stealth recording don't ask, don't tell. You know, I see this with way that the doctor, you know, you want to record your doctor, not because you want to catch him or her in a, like in a problem and sue them. So you want to remember what they say. And 99 times out of 100, 999 out of a thousand or even more people are recording because they just want to remember it's not a trap. And so but I think there's still kind of a litigious culture in medicine and in certain other areas that make that hard. So I think. So I do sort of, I don't know that people are getting more comfortable with it. I see the trend of stealth recording. People are always asking on support, like I, I know I can use wave to like show up to my zoom with a square that says Josh's bot. But like can I do it without people seeing that? I think there's more of a thirst for private stealthy recording. So yeah, I think the culture is sort of. It's not clear where they are on that. I think people are still uncomfortable with it, you know, unless there's really no threat.
- [29:21]
A
And last two, if I slid you over a phone and I had to.
- [29:24]
B
Call the most famous person in the phone.
- [29:26]
A
No, not, not yet. Okay.
- [29:28]
B
Sorry. Oh, my younger self.
- [29:30]
A
Yes. And you, I see you did your research. You could call your 20 year old self.
- [29:35]
B
Call 20 year old self. So you know, I wouldn't. But it's a. That's not the point of the question. The point of the question is generic. I think being more patient just in all aspects of my life would have been beneficial. I've been like, good at startups because I'm impatient and I move really fast. But there are some areas that. A little more patience, little more. Hold the stock longer. Wait until you make the fuss about the thing. Hold off before you leave the company. Chill out before you make XYZ decision. A little more patience. I've been acting like my hair is on fire and the world is going to end since I was 20. Or really before that, but really especially since I was, you know, around that age, you know, and so maybe just take it easy.
- [30:27]
A
It's a good one. And now here's the one who's the most famous person in your phone.
- [30:31]
B
I don't have any famous people in my. I don't know. Famous anybody?
- [30:34]
A
No famous people?
- [30:35]
B
Not really. Not really. And if I did, it would be weird to say it here.
- [30:39]
A
True. And last one, what's one rule you live by that most people don't?
- [30:50]
B
Well, I don't know one rule I live by that most people don't. Well, go for a run every day if you can. I think definitionally most people don't do that, but that's a good one.
- [31:02]
A
Why?
- [31:04]
B
Running feels good. And it's. Well, it feels good after. And it's a very efficient form of effort, exercise, and it gives you progress. Like there are a few things in the world that you can get better at, really, just by doing them a lot. There are some things like that, but, like, I could play chess every day and like, I've plateaued. I'm not very good at it and I'm not going to get any better. But if you run every day, you can get quantitatively better, like in true, factual ways. And I really like that. And so I do. I mean, not every day, but every other day.
- [31:39]
A
I think that's a good way to end it for sure.
- [31:42]
B
Right on.
- [31:42]
A
Well, thanks, Josh, for taking the time to join the show.
- [31:44]
B
My pleasure.
- [31:45]
A
Any listeners who haven't checked out WAVE yet, please do. It's in the episode description down below.
- [31:49]
B
Wave co.
- [31:50]
A
They're beasts. Wave co. Check it out. And thanks for joining.
- [31:53]
B
Thank you.
- [31:54]
A
Awesome.