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Clockwise
649: All Vocation, No Avocation
00:29:53
Our latest personal tech projects, twenty-five years of macOS, our networking setups, and where we turn for up-to-date information.
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A
You.
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B
It's Time for episode 649 of the Clockwise podcast from Relay, recorded Wednesday, March 25, 2026. Clockwise, four people, four tech topics, 30 minutes. Welcome back to Clockwise, the tech podcast that is on the march. And as we march along, I am Dan Moran and I am joined across the Internet by my good friend, my pal, the one, the only, Micah Sargent. How you doing today, Micah?
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1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3. Did you know that my march is also a waltz?
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B
Oh, that's nice. I like that. We gotta get.
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C
It's.
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B
We got rhythm, we got music, we got everything. Very good, very good shows. You started off on a great beat and we're going to continue that by introducing our two fantastic guests this week. To my left, it is software visionary, podcaster and my brother in arms, Guy English. Welcome back, Guy.
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C
Nice to be here.
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A
To my left, printing history enthusiast, it's the wonderful Glenn Fleischman. Hello, Glenn.
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D
Well, hello. Let me show you my cha cha and some foxtrot on an audio.
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A
Look at him go.
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D
Important thing.
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B
All right, I'm reeling it in. I'm reeling it in because we got 30 minutes and we got four topics. We got to cover them. So here we go. I'm gonna kick things off. I'm curious to know if you have done any technology projects recently that are purely for yourself. They're not a work thing, they're just something you're like, hey, I'm gonna do this thing. And it's totally self indulgent and a thing that you just wanna do for yourself. Guy. Any self directed projects lately?
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C
Recently I've been noodling around with the language that I made for myself and doing hypercode y kind of stuff. Wow. I mean, if I get it to a point that it's actually useful, I'll share it with you guys. But I mean, it's just a hobby. Hacking. What does writing sort of desk accessories look like in today's age? And could you have AI sort of take care of some of the functionality? I don't know, I'm still noodling with it.
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D
But you're creating a language to express that in so people could write that kind of stuff in a simpler form. Like a hypercardio formula.
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C
Exactly, yeah, like a more simplified kind of thing. This started like years ago when I was trying to learn Swift. I basically started implementing my own little Swift version just to sort of learn how it would work, which is a crazy idea, but it's the way like you know, taking a party car and putting it back together, poorly kind of vibe anyway, so it's evolved from that. It's again very hobby project and Dan asked about some things that are just for yourself. This is it. It's totally useless, but it consumes my creative side of my software stuff right now.
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A
For me it would be that after fighting with it for too long, going as far as find, you had to find a proper SD card that was small enough for this and then do some fancy stuff to flash the card with new firmware to get my, my aftermarket head unit to work. I decided I'm just going to get a new one and it's great. But my memory was a little shoddy because it actually took even longer than the long that it I thought it took that I thought I remembered it taking. It's a. It was a time commitment but it was well worth it to have this Sony aftermarket head unit I have in now that immediately connects via wireless carplay. Anytime I get to do both sort of like software stuff but also physical stuff like soldering and whatnot is a good time for me. Glenn, what about you?
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D
I'm all vocation, no avocation, which is to say it's hard for me to find hobbies that don't turn into business or work. So 27 years ago I started a site called ISBN Nu that seemed like a good domain for a book price comparison site. And then it actually was kind of a business for several years while people were buying lots of books and people wanted to compare and find the price. And then I've kind of let it languish for the last decade because bookstores stop running their affiliate programs. Things change. Suddenly it's like you need to use OAuth2 and I'm like I don't have enough time or effort to learn how to implement this myself. So a few weeks ago I like, you know, I need to do a project with Claude code because I want to understand this. This is something everyone's talking about. Every programmer is excited about it. And so I went through and kind of rebuilt parts of ISBN New with Claude code and it's, I want to say it's a hobby, it's for fun because it doesn't really make much money. It does return some affiliate revenue but with Claude I was able to understand my code better, fix things and the site now works better than it ever did, which is very rewarding. Like personally not monetarily, but it's been really enjoyable to get this old beat up project that's now it's been running for 27 years. Nonstop. I can't believe I have something on the Internet that still works and actually works better than ever.
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B
I just had this itch to scratch, literally yesterday. Glenn knows about this because I actually respond by a conversation I was having with him and our fellow Jeopardy. Alum Jason Snell. I have a. When I was practicing last year for it, I bought a usb, like, signaling device, a little like the, like the buttons they press on Jeopardy. And like, it just. It plugged into the computer and you press the button and it. You can use it on, like, there's a website where you can sort of test the buzzer timing. And I was playing around with it and, you know, it's just been sitting there for last year because it's not like I've had another reason to drag it out. But we had been joking around about doing like, a, like a game show version with the three of us. I was like, oh, well, I know Jason has one of these too. I wonder if there's a way for me to, like, get it to do something else, because it's just sort of emulating, I think, a space bar press. And so I played around with some of the, like, the basic USB utilities, but none of them really could see it. And so I went to my good friend Claude and I said, here, I've got this thing. Can I. Can I remap it or create a little, like, tool to remap it? And within the course of about an hour, not only did it, like, help me write a Python script that would basically do this, but it also let me package it up into a Mac app that I could then send to somebody. I was like, this is bananas. And, and it works. And it's, you know, it's super simple, right? It's this really basic one function app, but it's like, man, like, there's no way I would have ever been able to build that before. I don't even know. I don't know the first thing about building a Mac app. And yeah, you need to jump through all the, like, hoops for security and privacy stuff, but it's literally a thing I'm just doing for myself and, like, one other person, but. And like, yeah, that was a thing I did purely for myself and it was a lot of fun. It's a great experience. I love, I love making little things like that. That's totally, totally bespoke. And I don't have, you know, guy's ability to create my own software coding language. That's well beyond me, so yet. Yes, yes. All right. That's next. All right, thank you all for your thoughts on that. Let's go to our second topic, which comes from guy.
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C
Yeah, so 25 years of macOS, I guess, maybe what's your take on where it is, and where do you see it in 25 years? I know that's such a stretch, but, like, these past 25 years, you could have kind of guessed where it is. It is not fundamentally different. Right. Than it was when it came out. In terms of, you get Windows, you have the dock, you know, it's. It has this. Shares the same bones. What do you think 25 years from now is going to look like?
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Obviously, I have to choose what I hope. Right. That's where we go with it. And what I hope is, honestly, Guy, that it doesn't change too terribly much. I love macOS so much, and I love the way that it works and the way that my brain works are similar enough that I just. I get it, and so I don't really want it to change too much. I have appreciated some of the changes that have taken place over time, really love having my beautiful widgets on the desktop. That was one of the best changes for me. The. The new design direction doesn't bother me that much. It's almost like you have a. I don't know, a cousin who started dying their hair a different color. And underneath, you know that they're still the person that you know. And that's kind of how I think Mac OS is right now, where everything's still where I want it and need it to be. And it's just got a new dye job. And so I hope that the dye jobs keep changing, but that the person underneath stays the same. Glenn, what are your thoughts?
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D
You know, with the exception of liquid glass and some of the other changes that have come in that are irritating in interface design, I think, fundamentally, I think macOS is kind of the best it ever has been. Like, I've been using it daily since practically since 1985. So it's easy to say we're kind of at the apotheosis, like, what do you need to do to make it better? And it's more like, I just want it to disappear more. I want it to be a thing that I don't have to think about. And I think the current state of the Mac is that there's a lot of things you have to think about to get to work. I kind of want to see Mac os. I don't want it to see it become like an AI system. And I Don't want to have the return of Clippy, but Mac OS Edition, but I sort of want Mac OS to be clever about what I want to do. So not that the system settings is replaced with a prompt or something, but more like, you know, I can be like, there can be tasks or like, I want to do this thing and it's like, great, I'm going to change five settings and here they are. Or maybe I don't even want to know about the settings, but if I want to, it'll show me. And things like that kind of the things that we, we script, we write Apple script, we write automations, we do shortcuts. I'd like to see more of that be exposed in a way that would be useful. So the computer is doing things that computers do well and I'm not doing or maybe it even notices what I'm doing. Repetitive tasks or certain kinds of things. But again, I don't want Clippy, I don't want to, hey, I see you're trying to blah, blah, blah. I want it to kind of like, oh, I've recognized a subtle interaction and here's something I could do. I've written a script for you. Do you want to use it? Things that would just make my life easier and less repetitive because everything about Mac OS is, you know, it's designed to make apps run and I use the apps and I don't need the system except as a mechanism for that. So I want the remaining parts that are rough to be shaved down.
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B
I think, you know, to agree with a lot of what Glenn and Maika have said too. Like, I think fundamentally, what's the most important thing for me about my Mac is how it lets me get things, things done. Like Micah, the aesthetic stuff doesn't, I don't find it bothers me as much as I know some people are affected by it. I see those comments and I appreciate what people are saying about it. And certainly it speaks to an attention to detail and those things that are things we've always loved. But what I've always loved about the Mac is, you know, not just the design, but also how it works. And I find that I still managed to get most of the stuff done that I want to do. So the, the two major things I'd love to see is better, better tailoring. I think that kind of gets into what some people are talking about with, you know, assistant and, and AI integration in terms of helping me do more with my computer or get more of the work that I don't want to spend my time doing done so that I can focus on the stuff that I like doing and that I want to do. And one big part of that, for me, at least in the past couple years, has been shortcuts. And I'd love to see some improvements along that, just in terms of making the integration across Apple's apps even deeper and broader and more powerful so that I can access not just a small sliver of the things that my computer can do, but, like, everything that my computer can do and allow myself to automate all of these different tasks without having to jump through bizarre hoops. So that's one thing, and then the other thing, I think, you know, when it comes to things like fit and finish, you know, I know again, a lot of attention's been made to the design and the aesthetics of the most recent version, but for me, a lot of it comes down to, like, making things work better, like tightening all the screws. There's lots of things in macOS that are buggy or strange or don't work reliably, and that's the kind of stuff I would like to see a lot of attention devoted to fixing and tuning up in sort of the next 25 years. Because if something's not reliable, you can't count on it. And if you can't count on it, you're not going to use it. And if you don't use it, it doesn't help you at all. So you can introduce all the splashy features you want, but if they don't work reliably, I'm never going to use them because it's more wor I have to check. Not only do I tell the computer to do a thing, then I have to go check. That's twice as much work. So, you know, for me, that's where it comes down to is like, yeah, make stuff more powerful and automatable, but also make sure that it's reliable and I can trust it. And more than anything else, I need to be able to trust the stuff my computer can do. Guy, you want us to wrap us up here?
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C
Yeah, I totally agree with what you just said. You need to be able to trust the software that you use. Point Finale. That's basically the promise of the operating system, right? That's part of why they go through all of the hoops for the security. It's why the memory protection stuff. That's why a lot of it is the way that it is. I also kind of agree with, with Glenn in that having the Mac be smarter and be able to Offer a smoother way to accomplish your tasks is I think hopefully where we're going to go in terms of the current look. It's transient, right? We're talking 25 years out. Who knows what it's going to look like? It won't look like this. I know that. But like the basic bones are still going to be. I do think that with AI, I think we're going to sort of explore again and I don't know if it's going to work, but explore again. Sort of. The open doc concept of a document will contain mixed media basically because you can sort of embed like little views from other apps and AI can be driving a lot of this. When you are in an AI chatbot, you're seeing like little charts, you're seeing like little images, you have like different mixed media stuff. And I think that notion is going to grow out and maybe sort of permeate the operating system, which will be in support of what Glenn was saying. It's like, help me get my job done. Like, do I need to be jumping around from document to document on the Mac, which is very document centric now or window centric? Like how many tabs do I have in my web browser? I don't know. Like we keep managing windows and tabs when maybe what we could be doing is a better job of managing what it is we're working on in terms of an addressable conceptual space. What that looks like, I don't know. But I do think we're in for some interesting stuff. What I'm confident of is we will still have the bones. Good solid bones, like we said all the way back to 85. And everybody in the industry has more or less aped what Apple has done and you know, more power to it. I'm excited to see what happens.
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A
Great.
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B
So that's two topics down, two topics to go. Which of course means it's halftime here at clockwise. And this week's episode is brought to you by our friends at Vitally, the AI powered workspace for customer success managers. Vitally's purpose built AI is for scaled customer success. It's there to help you better understand customers, to reduce, churn, unlock growth and always stay a step ahead. Basically all the things that make you great at your job. Vitally delivers the clarity, automation and AI driven insights your team needs so you can move faster, stay aligned and drive customer outcomes at scale. Vitaly AI services insights from every customer interaction to unlock another level of CS productivity, visibility and collaboration. That's why Vitally is trusted by more than 600 leading B2B SaaS. Customer success teams. And how's this for a great offer? Vitally is offering a free pair of AirPods Pro for every clockwise listener who takes a qualified demo call. So if you're a customer success decision maker, schedule your call by visiting Vitaly IO clockwise. That's vitally IO clockwise for a free pair of AirPods Pro when you take a qualified demo. Our thanks to Vitally for their support of this show and relay. And with that, halftime is over, and I'll kick things back over to Micah.
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A
Yeah, I was just curious about your home networking setup. Do you use mesh WI fi? Do you use power line networking? Are you using MOCA adapters? Any special equipment that you have as part of the setup? Just tell us sort of how things have changed over time or not changed based on the hardware that you've got running. Glenn? Yes. We'll start with you.
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D
Oh, well, I've been writing books about WI fi for over 20 years, and I will make a public confession is that my home's WI fi is not as good as it maybe should be. We had some ethernet put in when we had some basement renovation work done, which was hugely important. But I use powerline networking. I've got, I think, three power line networking adapters. I've got range extenders. It's just parts. Our house appears to be. Someone built it like a Faraday cage for some reason. So parts of the house won't receive signals unless you do weird things. And I had some major surgery last year that I'm fully recovered from. And just before I had the surgery, I was like, God damn it. And I got at a big drill and went into the garage and drilled a big hole so I could pull some Ethernet and discovered that there are multiple layers of wood that I can't drill through to get to the part where I could put the. So I need to get a friend with a bigger drill who knows how to do household things to finish that project. But mesh WI fi, a lot of people really love it. I thought it was too expensive when it came out, so I just kept buying cheap WI fi routers, and that's where I'm at now.
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B
I've had a couple different setups over time. I used to have some Eeros and I had a little bit of a mesh setup, but when I got frustrated with them and I found that when we moved into our new house, it's not so large that I really need a mesh system. The WI fi, the single WI fi router I have covers pretty much the entire house fairly well. There's a couple, like, places in my office where stuff that has, like, lower power WI FI chips I feel like don't do as well. But in my office, I have also made the smart decision when we were redoing a bunch of our house to have an ethernet run put from the behind our TV in our living room up to my office and up to my wife's office as well. So we have ethernet running there. I have a little switch in my office that connects stuff that needs to be wired. And then I have my router downstairs, which is a UNIFI dream router.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
And I found it great. It is been largely, you know, bulletproof. I really haven't run into major problems with it. Everything seems to run pretty well. And most of all, I don't have to think about it. Guy, what about you?
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C
Kind of a very simple setup. We have, like, one router where the Internet comes in. I'm kind of currently looking at fixing that up because I've recently moved here. And like, I used to have a synology that was on the WI FI network, but now it's not because that thing chunks away. And having it right next to the TV in the living room is basically not tenable. So it's downstairs, kind of where I have my little office area in the garage, which I don't love, but it's better than having the whole family be driven crazy. Just me. So now I need to get a router to connect that. There's a whole bunch of stuff that I would like to do right now. It's very basic and kind of annoying in that, like, I just bought some smart home lights, and they can't connect to anything. All my other ones do. These ones don't. I don't know why. Maybe the Apple TV is not.
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D
I know why. I'll tell you later.
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C
You know what? I'm not. I'm not even joking. When I couldn't get them working, I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna ask Glenn. I'm. I swear to God, I was not. I'm not joking. It was my plan. And, like, here you are today. So, yeah, we'll. We'll talk after the show.
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A
I have. I have EERO as my home setup network. It's fine. I've thought about switching over to unifi. There are a couple of times where I don't feel like I have as much control over the setup as I would like to have due to it's. Almost like the difference between Imovie and Final Cut Pro is the EERO to literally any other brand comparison. It's great and for the most part works, but there are times where I want to get in and, you know, mess around with things and EERO just doesn't allow for that. And that's a little frustrating. But as far as signal goes, great signal throughout the house. I have the main eero with Wi Fi 7, I think is in the basement where I am for both my office and my partner's office. And then on the main floor, another EERO base station that serves WI fi to that floor and the upper floor. And then near our garage. It's a detached garage, so as close to the detached garage as we can get while still being in the house. I have a little EERO beacon to provide WiFi to the garage for the camera that we have there. We also have weird things in the walls. This is a very, very, very old home and so you can quite literally walk out of one room and into another. And before I had the mesh networking setup, the signal would degrade. It's like a Faraday cage here as well. So definitely needed to have that all arranged. And then also had Ethernet run from the fiber point that's in the house down into the basement so that we would have that connection. Thank you all for your answers on the home networking setup. I have all of that mapped in my head now for whenever I come steal everything. Let's move along to our next topic, which comes from Glenn.
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D
Well, so I was very fortunate to fly. I threaded the needle to visit Dan Moran, among other people in Boston a couple weeks ago, and I managed to have very short lines at Sea Tac, like a zero wait and like a five minute wait in Boston. Logan on the way back. I understand I was very fortunate compared to nearly everyone flying. And I of course went to consult the TSA line trackers, which are now most airports have them. I think some of them are run by the government, some are run by local airport authorities. There's sometimes cameras. And I was like, oh no, they're not working. Because between the Homeland Security lack of funding and whatever else is going on to monkey around with it. And I thought, how do I know what the line wait is? Because I don't really want to get to the airport five hours early if I don't have to. And I found Reddit of all things. People are posting their line wait times on Reddit and sometimes within like an hour or two of when I was leaving so like the specific question is like, if you're flying, like what do you do if you can't figure out how to get there? Is Reddit your source of truth now? But I think even more generally, have you found that there are ways in which you can use sort of real time reporting on Reddit or Blue sky or other things where people are posting actively that help you bypass a lack of knowledge, like an empty area that you really need to know something about?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think that Reddit is a place that I end up turning to a surprise about. My wife was noting this the other day too. We were, I can't remember what, we were looking up at something and she's like, I'm just gonna check Reddit. And this was after rejecting, you know, Google's AI overview or whatever, which is kind of the opposite issue of like, let me tell you some information that's almost certainly not correct or what you're looking for. I feel like there was a time, not many years ago where I would often turn to Twitter for this kind of information and feel like there was a good resource there. I think one of the great opportunities, the great examples for me is sometimes there will be helicopters flying overhead or hovering over where I live and I'm like, why is what's going on? And Twitter used to be great for that. Now obviously it is garbage for that and many other reasons. And I have found that there are some more specific sources of like local news and stuff that are good for that kind of information. But I do think that that Reddit has a passionate group of people and especially because of all the subreddits with their specific like hyper focuses. Like literally just before we were recording, I was looking at the, the wire like the, the Reddit subreddit for not only like my car, but like the aftermarket head unit I put in my car, there's a subreddit just for that, you know, like, and it's very, I love that they're hardened. It's like, like, it's like distilled nerdery, right? With like this, such a, such a hyper focus on this like one little area and the people there know everything about that topic. So it does not surprise me at all that it's proved more reliable than some other sources, you know, especially those sources which may be curated or provided by organizations or institutions that have a vested interest in making it look one way. Whereas the people who are the enthusiast about it will often give you the unvarnished like. Like, yeah, they say that's how it's going, but this is what's actually happening there. So it is a valuable resource for sure, guy.
- [24:33]
C
Specifically for the TSA stuff. I mean, I don't know, because I guess I am going to where I'm trying to go and I just try to be Zen about it. Like, I. I know that's not helpful, but like, that's kind of just like if I'm stuck in a long line, I just try to meditate my way through it and not stress too much about the plan. Because you're helpless, right? You're going to be in that line and you're kind of stuck. You can't really do anything about it. So I try not to get my steam whistle going too much. That said, beforehand, if you're like, how many hours should I show up before I am new to checking Reddit? My wife does it all the time. She's a Reddit head. Is that what they call them, Reddit heads? Pretty sure that's redheads.
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B
Nope, that's something else.
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C
Yeah, she's not a redhead either. Anyway, long story short, yeah, there's phenomenally great information there. Cannot wrap my head around Reddit. It feels like, you know, a new version of the ultimate bulletin board kind of stuff with, like, indented comments. And it hurts my old head. And I'm not even that old. I just, for whatever reason, I cannot get into Reddit. Twitter used to be good, but Mastodon is of a different nature. I don't follow half as many people, and a lot of them tend to be in the technical, like, tech world kind of thing, and they're not necessarily posting about the. The length of TSA lines. So I suppose I don't really have a satisfying answer other than I try not to let it drive me crazy.
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A
Guy, I want you to know that your answer is very important because you have helped to reduce my imposter syndrome. Because you said that you and Reddit just don't really get each other. And I've always felt that way, but I was afraid to say it because I feel like me too love Reddit.
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D
This is a safe place to discuss now.
- [26:22]
A
I do. I feel safe and I'm so glad. Look, I will say Reddit does have good answers, and I have come across good answers there, but I try not to go there if I can help it. And then sometimes I just sort of have to smugly. I have to accept the smug smile on Reddit's face. Whatever it does give me the answer that I'm looking for on those occasions. But I honestly Glenn, didn't realize that there were TSA line trackers, didn't know that people were posting about them. I don't travel nearly enough to have been aware of this, but now that I am, perhaps this is a tool I will use. Because it seems like every time I do arrive at the Portland airport, it just so happens to be the time that all of the other TSA PreCheck people want to arrive as well. And so then we're all in a line three times longer than the non TSA PreCheck line. So thank you for telling me about these line trackers. Go ahead and round us out.
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D
Well, I think my story is just that I got TSA pre years ago when I was traveling more regularly. This is my first flight really in two years or first cross country flight. And so I was a little like, I don't want to miss it. I don't want to miss it because I was going to visit my older child. But I was actually surprised. I am not a Redditor either, or redheaded and I, I was surprised how useful it was. I don't use Reddit very often. Some people I know are on there all the time. I'm kind of a blue sky person for things. And blue sky is not Twitter for up to date information. Like something going wrong. Like the helicopter scenario is great. Why are there like 700 emergency vehicles that I can see on the highway outside my kitchen window? Nobody knows. We'll never know. There's no way to find out anymore until the newspaper, the local newspaper that's laid off most of its reporters, covers it a day or two later. So yeah, I love the fact that there are vernacular ways that crop up to help us when official sources fail. So that's my take.
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B
All right, that is four topics down. We got just enough time for a bonus topic. So let me ask you, what's your favorite fruit guy?
- [28:37]
C
Saxuma or clementine? Mandarin? I don't know if we know. Are those all the same thing?
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D
Sort of.
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C
I have no idea.
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A
Pineapple is mine. It's trying to eat me as much as I'm trying to eat it and I have to respect it.
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D
The sumo. The sumo.
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B
Oh yeah, the sumo.
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D
The king. Queen of all citrus fruits.
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B
I think I always as a kid, bananas were my favorite and I still really like a nice perfectly ripe banana. But yeah, oranges and pineapple are also really great. Sweet fruit is good. Hey, if you would like to get ad free episodes with an extra unwound episode every week, you can become a member of clockwise, just go to Relay FM, clockwise. Sign up for just $7 per month or $70 per year, and you'll help support the show. And with that, we have reached the end of this week's episode, and all that remains is for us to thank our guests. Guy English, really appreciate you being here.
- [29:26]
C
It's really fun hanging out. I always enjoy doing this show, and it's great to talk to Glenn again. It's been. It's been ages.
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A
Yeah. Speaking of that, printing history enthusiast Glenn Fleischman, thank you so much for being here.
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D
Thank you so much for letting me watch the clock with you.
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B
And Micah will be back next week, but until then, we remind everyone out there listening, watch what you say and
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A
keep watching the clock.
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B
Bye, everybody.