650: Softest Panel in the World

Summary

Podcast Summary: Clockwise Ep. 650 – "Softest Panel in the World"

Date: April 1, 2026
Panelists: Dan Moren (Host), Mikah Sargent (Host), Jason Snell (Guest), Philip Michaels (Guest Host/Moderator)
Theme:
A special 50th anniversary episode for Apple—and the 650th Clockwise—hijacked by Philip Michaels in a game show–style format inspired by the BBC’s Fighting Talk. Instead of the traditional rapid-fire format, Philip quizzes the panel on Apple history, tech flops, forgotten innovators, dream biopics, and more, awarding and deducting points along the way. This episode is rich with wit, deep tech knowledge, and playful jabs—a loving roast of tech culture, podcasting, and Apple lore.

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1. Main Theme & Purpose

Rather than the usual four-topic format, this anniversary episode pays homage to both Apple’s 50th birthday and Clockwise’s 650th with a “Pundit Showdown.” Philip Michaels, acting as moderator, assigns points for cleverness, insight, and comedic effect while the panelists debate Apple’s greatest contributions, biggest flops, forgotten geniuses and more.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

Apple’s Biggest Contribution (05:27–08:23)

• Dan Moren argues for Mac OS X as foundational:
  “It reinvented that classic macOS and it's made every single product functional... It’s the definitive product of Apple’s 50 years.” (05:55)
• Jason Snell backs the Newton, not for commercial success but as the springboard for Apple’s investments in ARM, which made Apple Silicon possible:
  “Led to Apple investing in ARM ... all of Apple silicon ... it’s the rare brilliant John Sculley move.” (06:43)
• Mikah Sargent highlights the App Store:
  “The iPhone ... is just a phone unless you have the App Store. The App Store is what turned it into a platform, created entire industries...” (07:38)

Forgotten Figures of Technology (08:23–11:23)

• Mikah: Dennis Ritchie, creator of C and Unix, passed away the same week as Steve Jobs but overshadowed.
• Dan: Hedy Lamarr—star and inventor who helped create foundations for Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc.
• Jason: Dan Bricklin, inventor of VisiCalc, which “literally invented the spreadsheet ... and kicked off the practical business computing revolution.” (10:16)

Over-Hyped Technologies to Toss (11:23–14:54)

• Jason: AI also-rans—especially “Elon Musk's XAI” and “Meta’s meta AI efforts.”
• Mikah: Crypto/blockchain
  “…poured into what largely amounts to speculative gambling and scams ... too many terrible people not burned by it and living on an island somewhere with their billions.” (13:04)
• Dan: Prediction markets (Polymarket, Kalshi).
  “...gambling on things that haven’t happened ... totally dissociates you from what's going on in real life.” (13:45)

Apple’s Biggest Flop (15:34–18:30)

• Mikah: Butterfly keyboard — wide-reaching, damaging reputation, no alternative available to consumers.
• Jason: Apple III — an infamous flop that “cast a pall over Apple for years.” (16:28)
• Dan: A greatest hits of failures, humorously nominates “Apple Cards.... goodbye Apple Cards. You will be missed, but not really.” (18:02)

Dream Apple Biopic Titles (18:58–21:58)

• Dan: Too Many Cooks—the drama of post-iPhone Apple execs chasing the “next big thing.”
• Jason: In Review—the underdog story of Alt Store’s creators taking on Apple in the EU.
• Mikah: Thinner and Lighter—the Jony Ive era’s obsession with design over function.

Best Apple Product Color of All Time (22:16–25:02)

• Jason: Cosmic Orange (iPhone 17), “a real collector’s item.”
• Mikah: Bondi Blue (iMac G3), “...it was a statement about computers not needing to be boring beige boxes.” (23:18)
• Dan: Rare iBook Key Lime, “undisputably the most delicious color.”

Reviving Apple Ad Campaigns (26:07–28:43)

• Mikah: Silhouette iPod ads—but to sell AirPods Max.
• Dan: Revive the “Lemmings” ad for EVs; pokes fun at pharmaceutical ads.
• Jason: The “bunny suit” chip ads—show off Apple Silicon’s prowess.

What Would You Pay Any Price For? (29:15–32:47)

• Dan: Breville tea maker (his “tea robot”).
• Jason: Professional Mac/iPad Pro — “If the bad man took one away from me, I would pay any price for another.”
• Mikah: Eight Sleep cooling mat/mattress pad—“Sleep affects every aspect of your life ... if I didn’t have it, I’d be a very, very sad person.”

Second Most Important Person in Apple History — Winner-Take-All (33:22–38:44)

• Jason: Steve Wozniak — “...there is no Apple without Woz working with Jobs ... he’s 1A to Steve Jobs.” (35:10)
• Mikah: Tim Cook — his stewardship, launching Apple Watch, services, privacy stances, and representation.
• Dan: Gil Amelio (jokingly, for making Steve Jobs’ return possible).

What Discontinued Apple Product Would You Bring Back? (38:58–42:20)

• Dan: AirPort Extreme router — sorely missed for reliability and backup integration.
• Mikah: iPod Touch — “no cellular connection, just music and apps.”
• Jason: 12-inch Retina MacBook — “...tiny, thin, light ... with Apple silicon it could be amazing.”

What Will Apple’s 75th Anniversary Celebrate? (42:51–44:58)

• Mikah: “Personal health device that truly matters” — real-time diagnostics, monitoring, chronic care.
• Dan: Device convergence—foldable phone/iPad/laptop: “the Apple Origami.”
• Jason: “Survival of humanity” (wryly): “...if we aren’t [here], find me and tell me so.”

Finals – Defend the Indefensible (46:09–48:11)

• Dan forced to defend: "Every one of Apple’s current products is a cruel joke."
• Jason forced to defend: "All this talk about Apple’s products has made me realize I’ve wasted my life."
• Winner: Jason Snell, for bravely satirizing his whole career with Apple.

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan Moren, on Mac OS X:
  “It reinvented that classic macOS and it's made every single product functional ... the definitive product of Apple’s 50 years.” (05:55)
• Jason Snell, on the Apple III:
  “...the Apple 3 took a big belly flop and basically cast a pall over Apple for years.” (16:28)
• Mikah Sargent, on the butterfly keyboard:
  “Our trust was broken.” (15:34)
• Dan Moren, on prediction markets:
  “It’s disturbing. It’s messed up. Get it out of here.” (13:45)
• Philip Michaels, as Moderator:
  “The quickest way to get points, which is to bash Elon Musk in my presence.” (14:54)
• Jason Snell, on Steve Wozniak:
  “I would go as so far as to say Woz isn’t number two. He’s 1A to Steve Jobs.” (35:10)
• Dan Moren, on the AirPort Extreme:
  “I’m still sad that Apple got out of the router business… none of them have been as solid for my home internet connection.” (39:12)
• Jason Snell, in Defend the Indefensible:
  “Not a day goes by where I don’t think if I’d taken that job at PC Computing ... I would be the editor in chief of some PC magazine somewhere ... instead of a guy sitting in his garage writing about these colorful computers. How sad.” (47:33)
• Philip Michaels, closing:
  “This has been the six colors slash clockwise pundit showdown. And you know, keep watching the clock. ‘Cuz I sure as hell didn’t. Boom.” (48:58)

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4. Useful Segment Timestamps

• 05:27–08:23: Most significant Apple product
• 08:23–11:23: Forgotten technology figures
• 11:23–14:54: Overhyped tech fads to retire
• 15:34–18:30: Apple’s biggest flops
• 18:58–21:58: Dream Apple biopics
• 22:16–25:02: Best Apple product color
• 26:07–28:43: Apple ad campaigns to revive
• 29:15–32:47: What you’d pay any price for
• 33:22–38:44: Apple’s “second most important” person
• 38:58–42:20: Discontinued product to bring back
• 42:51–44:58: Apple’s 75th anniversary product predictions
• 46:09–48:11: Finals – Defend the Indefensible

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5. Tone & Style

• Witty, irreverent, playful: Panelists constantly riff, poke fun at tech culture and themselves.
• Nostalgic but incisive: Deep dives and offhand expertise abound, especially on Apple’s lesser-known history.
• Game show energy: Rules are made up on the fly, points given (and deducted) for puns, advocacy, and good natured shade.

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6. Takeaway

This episode turns the traditional Clockwise format on its head for a high-spirited, self-parodic celebration of Apple history, geek trivia, and podcast in-jokes. You’ll come away with not just deeper Apple knowledge, but a reminder of how technology’s biggest impacts—and silliest moments—are shaped by a wide cast of characters, both remembered and forgotten.

Winner: Jason Snell takes the Pundit Showdown crown, with quips, expertise, and a willingness to roast his own Apple-pundit legacy.
Best sound bite: “Woz isn’t number two. He’s 1A to Steve Jobs.”

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Whether you’re an Apple aficionado, tech history buff, or podcast hyperfan, this episode is essential, entertaining listening.

Transcript

[A]

It's Time for episode 650 of the Clockwise podcast from Relay, recorded Wednesday, April 1, 2026. Clockwise, four people, four tech topics, 30 minutes.

[B]

Welcome back to Clockwise the Tech Podcast, where, no joke, we're really only ever 30 minutes long. I am one of your hosts, Micah Sargent, and I am joined across the Internet by my dear pal, my good friend. You know him, you love him. It's Dan the Man Morin. How you doing, Dan?

[A]

Hello, Micah. Happy 650 episodes on this momentous day. I know some people are talking about some other anniversary that's happening today, but this one is clearly. 650 is bigger than 50, right? It's just math.

[B]

600 more even. Wow. Joining today to my left is the Clockwise host emeritus. It is, of course, Jason Snell. Hello, Jason.

[C]

Hello, Micah. It's great to be here. It's hard to believe that you and I have been doing clockwise for 650 episodes. I mean, added together, I guess, right?

[B]

With our powers combined.

[A]

And to my left this week, it's been a while since he appeared on this fabulous roundtable. My former boss over at Macworld recently of Tom's Guide, and a freelance editor for hire at this point, putting out his shingle, it's Philip Michaels. Welcome back, Phil.

[D]

Hey, Dan. Thanks for having me. And thanks for coming on my show.

[A]

Oh, no, not again.

[D]

Yes, it is another triumphant return of. I guess we can call this the Six Colors Pundit Showdown. The Clockwise Pundit Showdown. I don't know. We didn't work it out ahead of time. Anyhow, I'm stealing Dan and Micah's show today because I'm a terrible person and it's April Fools, so why not? Why not throw things into utter chaos? In case you don't remember, and why would you? It's been 10 years since we've done this. This is a show generously borrowed from the format for Fighting Talk, a BBC podcast where I ask questions. These folks will provide answers. I award points, we declare a winner. That's how it works. Let's meet our contestants. They've already been introduced, but we're going to introduce him again. First up, he is an author that writes books such as All Souls Lost, the Nova Incident, Byron Agenda. He's a Jeopardy. Champion. You can read him on 6colors.com. You can read them a whole bunch of places. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Dan Morin.

[A]

Yeah, this is good. I love a good Beatles intro. It's good to be here. Although, Phil, if you keep stealing my show, we're gonna have to disinvite you.

[D]

Well, that. That's all right. From one Jeopardy. Chap champion to a Jeopardy. Participant. He is the proprietor of six Colors. He is my former boss, and you can read him in such diverse places as the Verge as the Wall street fancy. It's Jason Snell.

[C]

Thank you, Phil. That's the song they played as I left the Jeopardy. Stage.

[D]

Don't dream it. It's over. But it actually is. But it is over that that guy is still champion.

[C]

Yes, that guy's still playing. Still playing. Folks. See me play forever.

[D]

And our final participant, last but not least, he is a clockwise co host. So you wouldn't know that from this episode. Stand at attention. Ten hut. It's Micah Sargent.

[C]

Oh, Micah, are you awake?

[B]

Some people even know me as Micah Sargent.

[D]

Yes, I got the name wrong.

[C]

Got the important rank right, though, so.

[B]

Yes, but you did get the rank correct.

[D]

Well, I apologize. That's going to be a point off to me.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

We've already started with fill at a deficit.

[D]

That's the way I like to do this. Fill at a deficit. I might, I might finish last. Almost certainly we'll finish last. Micah, have you been on Jeopardy?

[B]

Um, it's. No.

[D]

Well, no, that's, that's, that's a point for you because you know, I don't like these show off eggheads. Anyhow. Now that I've shown you how the. You've heard the point sound effect, I will award points. Either one point, two points awesome. Or three points. And if I disagree with the answer, you can lose a point. So why don't we get things started with our first question of the day? And it's all about this 50th anniversary.

[C]

What a reflection.

[B]

And what do you think is Apple's biggest contribution in the last 50 years?

[D]

Oh, my God.

[B]

You know, you can focus on the product moments.

[C]

Reinventing music, reinventing the smartphone, bringing the creative arts to the table, the creative graphics, saving people's lives with the watch.

[D]

So Apple was founded 50 years ago on April 1, 1976. Let's start off with the big question. What's the most significant product Apple's released in that time? Let's start with you, Dan Moran.

[A]

I think there are any number of things you could throw out here. You could throw out the original Macintosh or the ipod. I mean, the iPhone obviously is the biggest thing. But I think that if you looked at everything Apple has done over the past 50 years, for me, it's Mac OS X. It's been 25 years since Mac OS X came out. It has been the underpinning of everything that they have made since then. It reinvented that classic macOS and it's made every single product functional. And the kind of thing that we've come to expect from Apple, These, this amazing user interface, this attention to detail. We're just going to look over that whole liquid glass thing that's happening. But, you know, other than that, I think that Mac OS X is the definitive product of Apple's 50 years.

[D]

All right, Jason, can you top that?

[C]

Well, we'll see. There are a lot of potential answers. The Apple II is obviously the engine that created the company in the first place. The iMac G3 saved it later, which was very important. The iPhone is the most successful tech product ever. That's why I'm going to go with a Newton. As David Pogue points out in his book Apple the first 50 years, the Newton led to Apple investing in ARM, which not only made them enough money to buy next later, but it led to all of Apple silicon, which is based on ARM and they have a perpetual license for arm. So it's the rare brilliant John Scully move. But yeah, the Newton kind of backs in there as being very important.

[D]

Well, you defended it. Well, by the end of that answer, I was a little bit dubious. When you're mocked in the Doonesbury comic, I'm not sure that you're the most significant product. But we'll move on to Micah.

[B]

Yeah, now I see what you mean about eggheads sort of like listing five or six things that they get points on.

[D]

You get it?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I'll have to figure this out. As I figure this out as I go along, I'm gonna say it's the App Store because listen, the iPhone, sure, it's fine, but it's just a phone. Unless you have the App Store. The App Store is what turned it into a platform, created entire industries. There's some billionaire somewhere sitting on an island just, just there because of Candy Crush, it's made, there's an app for that into a phrase that people understand almost wherever you go. And of course, it has fundamentally changed how software is distributed and monetized. Uber, Instagram, TikTok, they exist because of the App Store. So that's what made the iPhone matter beyond just being a cool gadget.

[D]

Very well, let's move on to our next question. Everyone knows about Jobs and was, but few people remember Apple's third founder, Ronald Wayne. What's your pick for the greatest forgotten person of technology? Micah, let's start with you this time

[B]

Ooh, I get to go first. Well, I was originally going to say Tony Fadell, but I think people here. I think people here know him enough. And so I'm going to go with Dennis Ritchie, created the C programming language, also created Unix, which is at the heart of modern computing. They all trace their lineage back to Unix. So I think with that. Oh, the other thing that I forgot to say, he died in October of 2011, which was the same week as Steve Jobs. But ain't nobody talking about Richie, so I am.

[D]

All right, Big, big, big points. Dan Morin, how about you?

[A]

Yeah, there are a couple people who will come to mind here. I think some of them better known than others. Like, you know, Nikola Tesla at one point would have been the one of the great forgotten people, except some jerk took his name and turned it into something not great. I also wanted to throw out Vannevar Bush, the former dean at mit, who basically invented what was called the Memex, which was like, the idea of the, like, hypertext before hypertext ever existed. But if you have to pick one person, there's basically nobody in technology that, like, also has, you know, this kind of career in film. I'm gonna pick Hedy Lamar, who not only awesome, was a successful film star, but helped invent a radio guidance system that basically led to the progenitors for WI fi and Bluetooth and all this wireless technology we rely on today. I mean, somebody with a star in the Hollywood Walk of Fame and a storied tech history that's kind of incredible and deserves to be remembered.

[D]

All right, And Jason.

[C]

Yeah, my first instinct here. And again, they're these people who are kind of, like, moderately known, but not to the extent that they should be like Doug Engelbart, who did the mother of all demos and invented the mouse and got basically nothing for it. We gave him an Eddie Award at one point, just sort of as a. Like, you should probably have some statues in your house because you're so good. Avi Tavanian, who came over from Next and basically did the impossible to integrate NextStep and Mac OS into Mac OS X, which is the foundation for everything Apple is doing. That's my Apple angle. But I'm going to go with somebody that not a lot of people, especially a lot of younger people, have heard of. Dan Bricklin, who created VisiCalc back in the early 80s. You could buy a personal computer. It was fun. Kids could do 10, print. I'm awesome. 20 print, go to 10. But, like, there was no reason to buy a computer with money. Until Dan Bricklin wrote VisiCalc, literally invented the spreadsheet and sold tens of thousands of Apple IIs, thereby keeping Apple in business and kicking off the entire practical business computing revolution.

[D]

That's why you invite a guy who's reviewed books for the Wall Street Journal on your podcast, I guess. All right, next question. OpenAI. You see, it's not all about Apple today. Open the AI plug. Plug the pole. Pulled the plug on Sora last week. What over hype technology product do you hope will be joining Sora in the great cornfield in the sky? Jason, let's start off with you this time.

[C]

Look, I feel like when you. When you send us these questions that there was like a dazzling AI like hovering in the sky saying, what aspect of AI will be the thing that I most hope will go to the cornfield? And I think I've decided that the AI also rans that are spending huge amounts of money and wasting huge amounts of energy to never actually ship anything that is going to be relevant. So, like Elon Musk's X AI. It's never going to happen, dude. And yet he keeps spending money on it. Meta's meta AI efforts. It's. I mean, maybe they'll come up with a great ad system. Oh, boy. Change the world. That's great. But you know, Xai, I just want to say that since Elon is putting all his companies together, the problem with your question is you talk about the cornfield in the sky. Literally the. The. The data centers Elon Musk is going to put in space. They're going to be in the great cornfield in the sky. So I look forward to that time.

[D]

I don't think that's a problem with the question. I think that's oddly pressing.

[C]

A solution perhaps.

[D]

I would just like to note that I wrote my questions in BBEdit, which has no AI component to it. So there you go, Micah.

[B]

All right, I'm gonna go with crypto. And I know those people out there, those people out there that are going. It has legitimate use cases. No, the blockchain blocked. The amount of energy, the amount of money, the amount of human attention poured into what largely amounts to speculative gambling and scams. I mean, I suppose it is a good representation of humanity, but I would like to see it go to the great cornfield in the sky. Too many people burned by it. Too many terrible people not burned by it and living on an island somewhere with their billions of dollars. So get out of here.

[D]

All right, Dan, finish us off.

[A]

All right, first of all my question was, is Elon Musk a technology product and can we send him to a great cornfield? Because that would be my. But barring that or his Grok or whatever he wants to call it, I think there are plenty good examples. I mean Alexa plus this whole ballyhooed like super smart version of Alexa, which turns out to be total trash. Apple's attempt with Image Playground, let's, let's play it right off. And then the meta Ray Bans, which seem cool, but then I saw like a friend of mine had a video with like somebody livestreamed him with his kids in the grocery store the other day. What are we doing? Like, I don't even understand the point that. But I think one thing a phenomenon that needs to get removed is the prediction markets. Your calci, your poly market, your legalized insider trading, which is just gambling on things that, that haven't happened and sort of provides not only this sort of impediment, this incentive to be like let's just bet on literally everything in the world, but also totally dissociates you from what's going on in real life and turns us all into weird mindless people just betting on people's deaths. It's disturbing. It's messed up. Get it out of here.

[D]

All right, let's go to the scores. Micah had jumped out to an early lead, but right now he's at 15 points tied with Jason, who along with Dan at 16 points realized the quickest way to get points, which is to bash Elon Musk in my presence. So let's move on to our next question. And it is all about this. I am jumping ahead by the way to number five and asking you to name Apples biggest flop in the last 50 years. Let's go with Micah.

[B]

All right, I'm choosing the butterfly keyboard. And look, I'm not, not being silly about this. If you think in terms of the sheer damage to Apple's reputation that it's done, paired with the number of customers it affected, arguably worse than the Newton, worse than the Pippin, worse than the hockey puck mouse, although some of us loved that, myself included. They were products you could just not buy. You couldn't them. Because the butterfly keyboard was on every single MacBook for years. Or rather it's a product that you could, you could avoid buying this you could not avoid buying. Professionals who depended on their laptops had no alternative. And it was a years long forced experiment on Apple's most loyal users. Our trust was broken.

[D]

Apple, and I'm sure I owned a MacBook Air with a butterfly keyboard. I feel that answer, Jason.

[C]

You know, a lot of choices here. Some of them, you know, there are failures and then there are flops. I feel like if something goes down and it doesn't do a belly flop, is it a failure? Like the Mac Portable was a failure, the G4 cube was a failure, but what was a flop? And when I was writing one of these Apple 50 stories that I'm, I think I'm done now, one of the ones I just kept coming back to is the fact that the Apple II was so successful that Apple just kept trying to ship replacements for it. And it never worked. None of the replacements worked until finally eventually with the sort of second and third generation Macs they got there. And the biggest of all of them, the one that made the biggest flop, the one that overheated to the point where the number one service thing you did is drop it on a desk and that might reseat everything in it. Nobody wanted it. Nobody wanted an incompatible computer from Apple that wasn't the Apple ii. And to this day do you see a lot of Apple products with the number three in the in the name? You do not. Because the Apple 3 took a big belly flop and basically cast a Paul over Apple for years.

[D]

And finally Dan there, as Jason said,

[A]

plenty of things to choose from here. Apple seems to overextend itself a lot of times. So you have things like trying to make the Pippin a video game system that never really happened. You've got Ping. I mean Ping. They tried to get in on the social media craze. Didn't really happen for them. Lisa, the Lisa, I mean, you know, maybe ahead of its time, but not great. My personal favorite, the PowerBook 5300 which

[C]

just was something that exploded and caught fire.

[A]

It's litany of attempts to get next generation OS's off the ground. Copeland, Gershwin. I don't know what other musicals they could throw in there, but there's plenty of options. The one I have to pick though, you know Phil, I think this is near and dear to your heart. Apple deciding the best way to show your appreciation to loved ones. Cards, Apple cards. Goodbye Apple cards. You will be missed, but not really.

[D]

Yes, that there's a story there which we'll share off air. Next question. Okay, and it is all about this. So we've had two biopics about Steve Jobs and a made for for TV movie on the Jobs Gates rivalry. Pitch me a new film about Apple. What would it be about and what would you call It. Dan, let's start with you.

[A]

You know, I think some of my favorite movies about, like, real life events in recent years are grown out of the author Michael Lewis's works. I look at, like, the Big Short or the chronicling of clearly one of the best baseball teams of all time in Moneyball. And I think to myself, is there a something we could do like this?

[D]

Wow. Not a fan anymore.

[C]

Okay. Too much pandering.

[A]

But that idea of the sort of melding of like the comedy of real life as we dramatize events that are happening, I think could be set in sort of the executive offices of Apple as it tries to come up with its big product post, the iPhone. What are they going to do next? And they're trying all these things. They're trying the Apple watch, they're trying to build a car. It's a little hapless. It feels a little dysfunctional at time. Nobody really knows who's got the vision, who's executing on this. You got strong personalities like Tim Cook and Johnny I've. And even a little bit of Steve Jobs there at the beginning. And they're all arguing over what's going to be the next big thing. And I would call it Too Many Cooks.

[D]

Awesome. Very good, very good. A long. A long journey, but we got there. Jason. Dan has already talked. Jason, you talk.

[C]

I'll talk now. This is a movie about the people behind Alt Store. I'm calling it In Review. It is an underdog story about a bunch of kids who try to take on Apple. It starts when young Riley, tested, is 13 and writes his first app for the App Store. But the real meat of the movie is when they decide they're going to launch an alternative to the App Store in Europe, which requires them. And this is true. Riley and his partner have to go to Europe and live for months in Airbnbs to launch this thing. And they don't know when they're going to be able to go home, which I think is going to be amazing drama. They are fighting Apple. They are talking to the eu. They really want to come home. It feels like it's really. There's a lot of dramatic potential, a lot of personal drama there. And, you know, in the end, not only do they win, but then as we know now you can have a Spinal Tap like ending where they go to Japan and are big in Japan too, because they're doing that now. So I think that would be a great human drama that is Apple themed. But Apple is the adversary.

[D]

All right. And finally, Micah.

[B]

I'm going to choose a film. This is just me being selfish. I want to film about the jony I've era the tension that exists between design and engineering. So like 2012 to 2019, because you do have I've and his team pushing for things thinner, thinner, thinner devices. The butterfly keyboard, the trash can, Mac Pro, the removal of every port. It is kind of a story about what happens whenever we choose form over function. Aesthetic philosophy. Is it going to win over functionality? I'd call it thinner and lighter, and I would. I would love it.

[D]

All right, let us go to the next question. Once I find my button again. There it is. And Apple has introduced a lot of colorful products over the years. What's your pick for the best color of all time? Jason, let's start with you.

[C]

Well, I like the tangerine and the imac and the ibook back in the day. I think that they've really taken that to a new level in the modern era. I also want to do a shout out for platinum, which is. I know, I know it's a light gray. Not that exciting. But I just want to point out when everybody else was making things in beige and the original Macintosh was in beige, there was a moment when Apple said, you know what? Light gray instead. And it says Apple to me. But the answer has to be, after so many years in the wilderness, Cosmic Orange on the iPhone 17. A color on an iPhone. Who would have thought about it? So for me, it's cosmic orange. I've got one of those phones now. I'm going to treasure it. I fear that they'll. We'll never see it's like again. But we got our moment in the orange.

[D]

Real collector's item. So, Michael, how about you?

[B]

I can't remember. I apologize to all the Australians out there if it's actually Bondi or Bondi.

[C]

Bondi.

[B]

Okay. That's the real one. So Bondi Blue point for Jason.

[D]

Yeah, Fair.

[B]

Honestly, when the iMac G3 showed up in that translucent Bondi blue, you know, it was a statement about computers not needing to be those boring beige boxes. And did, as far as I understand it, have an effect on how people designed electronics going forward, at least for a time. Every, frankly, colorful Apple product, all of them Cosmic orange included. So I should get like five points or all the points of Jason have existed because Bondi blue was the brave step they took in the first place.

[C]

First color ever.

[D]

We're giving you three there, and then we're taking one away for advocating for points.

[B]

Fair. Yeah.

[A]

You know, I think we all agree Apple's better when it actually leans into the color. No sky blue MacBook air or starlight or Midnight. I mean, those are fine, but are they even really colors? I mean, I like when Apple gets bold. I mean, I've got, I'm still rocking my Series 7 Blue Apple Watch. I love that thing. But I was looking back over the history of all the colors. I'm not sure if Flower Power and Del Blue Dalmatian really count as colors that they were bold.

[D]

You had that dreams.

[A]

The one that I liked the best, I didn't even remember this was a thing for a bit. But they made an iBook, the original G3 iBook in a color called Key Lime, which is undisputably the most delicious color and it was only apparently available on the online store. So I, when I was researching this, I found all these references to it is the rarest of all the ibooks because they didn't make as many of them as others. So if you can get yourself a Key lime ibook, apparently it's in hot demand.

[D]

If I can humble brag here. And it's not really humble brag. I was in France when they announced the Key Lime ibook at the Apple Expo. And when they announced that it was online at the time, not a whole lot of online connectivity or E shopping in. In Europe. And oh, how the French booed and whistled back.

[A]

Oh, wow, cities online.

[D]

Yes, there was. There was much Gallic shrugging that day. So moving on. And our next question is all about this. John Hodgman and Justin Long have revived their I'm a PC, I'm a Mac character stand for a recent speed of advertisements. Only this time it's to sell a weight loss injection. What other Apple ad campaign of the past should be revived? And what should it sell? Oh, I should probably ask someone to talk. Hey, Micah, you talk.

[B]

All right, I'll do that. I think we need to bring back one of my favorite ads, the Silhouette ipod ads. The first of all, incredibly versatile campaign because you can just have a billboard, but you can also have these wonderful advertisements. But this time it's because Apple really needs to get rid of its stock of the AirPods Max. So those AirPods Max, they'll stand out in those Silhouette ipod ads. It will get people to go, oh, these are cool. I should definitely own them. And then folks who spend all their time drinking smoothies at gyms with their headphones on will be wearing AirPods Max instead. So let's, let's have it.

[D]

Dan Morin, you know, I also thought

[A]

of the Dancing Silhouettes at first and I thought to myself, having watched a bunch of ad supported streaming services recently that seem to think I am way, way older than I am and seeing how happy people are when they're on those drugs to deal with their incontinence, that maybe that is the perfect place for the Dancing Silhouette sides. I also briefly consider, as long as we're in a pharmaceutical vein, that maybe Think different and Zoloft could finally come to some sort of understanding and there

[C]

would be an opportunity there.

[A]

But that I want to bring back is the much maligned Lemmings ad from Tony Scott from back in 1985. And this time I want to use it to sell evs so we can just show a whole line of gas cars just driving themselves off cliffs as they pay for ridiculous prices per gallon. And all the EV owners can be happy that they, you know, don't have

[D]

to pay for that. All right.

[C]

And finally Jason, I, you know, I was a bit of a rascal. I thought about like, what if the Think different ad was how Apple recast its apology for all of its onerous App Store practices to developers and said we're treating them going to going to treat them more fairly now we've decided to think different. It'll never happen. It'll never happen. Like Dan, I thought is is there a way to salvage the Lemmings ad? And my thought was it's a bunch of people with $500 PC laptops walking off the cliff because they don't buy a MacBook Neo. That seems like a pretty good ad. And remember those guys in the Bunn suits when Apple went to beat intel and then switched to intel and all that? They make chips. They're guys, they're fun. They dance around in little suits. And an ad boasting about Apple Silicon and its incredible power across all of Apple's platforms. That might be a fun ad too to bring back.

[D]

And I'm sure the intel will let that IP go for a song.

[C]

Well, I mean a bunny suit is universal. It's just whatever tsmc. Does TSMC have some weird suit that wear that then I don't care.

[D]

I don't know. Let's check the score. We've got a two way tie for first, Jason Snow and Dan Moran are at 28 points, not that far behind Micah Sargent at 25. Plenty of time to catch up with this question. Yes, Sony is hiking up prices on the PlayStation, citing global economic pressures like tariffs and supply chain issues. What's one product that you'd pay any price for Dan Moran.

[A]

Oh, I'm so glad. I thought about a few things here, honestly. The Fisher Price piano that my kid has, but that thing is indestructible and will never die. He's literally stomped all over it and thrown in places. Still works, so I'll never have to replace it. The thing I would pay any price for is the thing that's crucial to me every single day, and it's my Breville tea maker. Because if I did not have my tea robot every day, I would just. I don't know what I'd do. I've thought about that. Just the other day, I was like, what if this thing breaks? I was like, well, I don't care. It's coming from Australia or wherever. I would literally write you a blank check Breville to just deliver this thing to my door. Because what am I going to go back to doing? Like, making tea one cup at a time, like a jerk?

[D]

No, no.

[A]

I like my tea made for me by a robot.

[D]

I am just imagining older generations listening to this and first being very confused by the format and then going, what about my T robot? Yes, what about your T robot?

[C]

What are all these sound effects? And what is a T robot anyway?

[D]

Jason?

[C]

I mean, I love Dan, by the way. My solution was I bought another one and it's in a box in my closet in case the first one breaks. Yeah, well, okay, that's fair. This. Phil. I thought this was the hardest question of all of these, because any price is really hard. The one I think in my life that is truly what I have done is I have an iPad Pro. I have an M5 iPad Pro with the keyboard. And like, oh, it's cost so much money. And is it super practical?

[B]

No.

[C]

I mean, the screen is gorgeous. I like it. I do work on it. But, like, I paid a lot of money for a product that. I mean, it's proof that I would pay any price for. For the. For an iPad Pro, because I did. Realistically, being a smart shopper and not the dummy who buys the expensive iPad Pro like I am, I would say I would. I would pay any price for a good professional Mac. It doesn't matter whether it's a Mac Studio or a MacBook Pro or whatever I'm using, I. My Mac at my desk every day. If. If my. If one died, if a bad man came and took one away from me, I would pay any price for another one. Because it's. It's what I do. I have to have a Mac in front of me to do my job. So yeah. That the pro Mac.

[D]

Yes. The plague of of a Batman wandering into homes and taking away happens all the time.

[C]

What are you talking about?

[D]

I watch do something President Trump.

[C]

There's so many bad men out there.

[B]

There deal with the bad men. Originally I was going to say along the lines of Dan, my espresso machine. I very much feel like I need

[D]

my panel in the world with its tea robots and espresso machines. Okay, go on.

[B]

This is even worse. I'm going to get points reducted. I can already. I can already tell because what I'm going to say. No, now I feel like an idiot. What I'm going to say it said there we go is my eight sleep cooling mat mattress pad. Listen, sleep affects every aspect of your life. We spend so much of our life asleep and therefore we should sleep well. I love sleep science and one of the things that we've learned is that people need to or for the best sleep that you can have and for your health, you should sleep in a room that is 67 degrees or cooler. But many of us don't do that. I also sleep very warm. This is the thing that keeps me from waking up in a puddle regularly. And if I didn't have it, I would be a very, very sad person.

[C]

Is it halftime? Is this a sponsor read?

[B]

What happens? Yeah, it might as well be a sponsor read. Oh, my God. So that's my choice.

[D]

And that's an extra point there for commerce. Let's go to our next question and it is going to be about this guy. Do we have what it takes to establish a third category of products? An awesome product in between a laptop and a smartphone. While the bar is pretty high, it's got to be far better at doing some key things like these. And we think we got the goods, so think we've done it. Oh, sorry, Steve.

[A]

How dare you step on Steve and

[B]

you never be invited back to a keynote again.

[D]

No, no, I'm banned. So after Steve Jobs, who whom that was. I hope everyone recognizes who is the second most important person in Apple history. This is going to be the winner take all round where I am awarding five points, but only to one of you. And let's see who that is. Jason.

[C]

All right, I had a list here. I'm going to not get any points for them now because point stacking is banned in this category. But I am going to mention Avi Tavanian again because Imag mention what he had to do to pull OS10 out of a group of Mac engineers that hated him, but they had to save the company. I'm going to also not, not nominate, but mention Jean Louis Gasse because he's the one who actually took over after they kicked Steve out and got the Mac going under intense scrutiny under John Scully's era. But I'm glad you picked me first, because the truth is, it's Steve Wozniak. Without him working with Steve Jobs, Apple never happens. Apple is the fusion of hardware and software and creation of products. And the only reason that happened is that Steve Wozniak, who is a mechanical engineering, computer engineering genius, did first the Apple motherboard and then the Apple ii. And Jobs was the one who was like, you know, instead of selling circuit boards, what if we put these, assemble these all in a product and sell it to, to the masses? And you needed both of them. So I think, I think there is no Apple without was working with Jobs. In fact, I would go as so far as to say Woz isn't number two. He's 1A to Steve Jobs.

[D]

Very bold. Very bold. Micah, if you can raise yourself from your, your cooling mattress pad and take a racing shot of espresso, why don't you give us your answer?

[B]

Hold on, I'm sipping. Okay, now I'm ready.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Look, I think it's an obvious choice perhaps, but I, and maybe it's boring, but I do feel like Tim Cook is the second most important person. I know there's a lot of negative energy at him right now, which is all fair, but the company was in a place of what are we going to do now? When. Well, within some, some bounds of, like, how is this going to go? How are we going to keep being successful? When Steve Jobs died and Tim Cook was able to do that, has kept it going, has turned it into the most valuable company on earth. Built out services as a way to be a sort of stalwart option whenever the iPhone has reached saturation. Navigated supply chain nightmares. Apple Watch, being as successful as it is, fought the FBI to make Apple the privacy first company that it is. And frankly has navigated some heavy, very tumultuous times and I think has done a good job of it. Plus, from a personal level, I will never forget the day that I read Tim Cook's interview in the magazine and, you know, he came out and it was something that I needed at the time. So a very important person in my life just as much as Apple history. But I beg you not to make that part of the reason why you choose me.

[A]

For the five points.

[D]

All right then, Dan.

[A]

All right, so there are some, you know, obvious contenders here. Micah mentioned Tim Cook. I think, you know, Johnny I've is another strong contender. Is design language informed the entire like second half of Apple's history? Basically you could go back to some classic folks like Bill Atkinson and Susan Kerr who kind of developed the look and feel a lot of what we think of as the Mac even today. But I think that Jobs story has been cast so much with him as the hero coming back to save Apple. And I'll tell you as someone who writes narrative that for every hero story, you need a villain. You need a villain to make that hero who they are. So I'm picking Gil Amelio because without Gil Amelio there to basically say we got to make this deal, we got to get into, get himself supplanted by Steve Jobs, I am not sure that anybody, you know would remember where we are today. So he's, he's my unlikely pick for the person whose important set up the most important person at Apple and thus the future of Apple for the last several decades.

[D]

All right, so to briefly recap, we have Gil Amelio. I'm sorry, that answer is nuts. I'm sorry, that's crazy.

[A]

Nuts or chutzpah.

[D]

Yeah, no, that's frontier gibberish. Thank you very much for participating. So it comes down really between Tim Cook and Woz and Maiko. Well made the case for Tim Cook, but it's, it's, it, it's kind of, it's was. Let's, let's be.

[A]

I never thought I'd see the day when Phil Michaels acknowledged Steve was.

[C]

Well, what I did was I talked

[D]

about, I did that through gritted teeth. If the viewers could see me, I, I, I so wanted to give it to, to someone else. But I, I think Jason is correct.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And let's even I was convinced.

[D]

Yeah. So the Mac Pro desktop, it's reached the end of the line. One of many Apple products to come and go the last 50 years. You can bring one product back. Dan Moran, which one is it?

[A]

I have a lot of fun ones that are gone, like the 11 inch MacBook Air, which I really loved, and the ipod Nano, which was a huge one for me. But like for me, the one that is nearest and dearest to my heart that I still think about out often is the airport extreme.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

I've gone through so many different routers, some of which may now be banned

[C]

in the United States and none of

[A]

them have been as solid for My, my home Internet connection as the airport extreme. I'm still sad that Apple got out of the router business. You know, even with like, you know, had the time machine and stuff with integrated backup. I think that stuff was ahead of its time. And we still all need routers. That's the thing. Like, we haven't gotten away from that. That as a technology. And it shocks me sometimes that Apple has not come back and said, what if we just made a router that works and has all these great integrations with our stuff? Maybe this could be a really compelling consumer product. But I am not holding my breath. I don't think it's going to happen, but that's what I'd like to see.

[D]

All right, Maika.

[B]

I still love the ipod mini. I remember getting my first ipod mini and thinking this is a fantastic option, but the one that I'm going to go with is the ipod touch. So for me, awesome. Having this device that has no cellular connection that just serves as sort of the everything else device and most importantly has my music that I want to listen to on it. I just think it's delightful. I was really sad when I saw it go. And I loved spotting them on older TV shows where not older, but older from now where they were pretending they were phones. And you'd go, no, the iPhone wasn't that thin. At that point. You're just putting an ipod touch up to your ear. Very, very fun to see those from time to time. But yeah, just a no cellular connection, iPhone. That's pretty much what it is and I'd love to have it back.

[D]

And finally, Jason.

[C]

So I. The struggle here is that you bring a product back, but time has moved on and so it makes it harder to. It would be like a modern version of it, perhaps. I keep coming back to the fact that now that we have Apple Silicon in the map, there are Mac designs of the past that could maybe benefit from it.

[A]

Like I love.

[C]

Well, let's start with a Mac everybody hates, which is the Trashcan Mac Pro. I was thinking the other day actually might be pretty good at Apple Silicon. It was this design for a Xeon processor. But as an Apple Silicon Mac, it's actually kind of fun. And maybe that should be the future of the Mac Studio. Trashcan Mac Studio come at me. But here is my real, real plug, which is. Is. I love. I love a small laptop. I love the 12 inch PowerBook. I love the 11 inch MacBook Air. The. The closest Apple has come in, something that you could ship today and it would still be small and you'd be impressed by it is the Retina MacBook. The 12 inch Retina MacBook, which at the time was using an underpowered, overheated intel processor. But as I think all of us have been saying since 2020, since the M1 first debuted, that, you know, the MacBook Neo is great, but it's the size of a MacBook Air. There is room with Apple silicon for something like that tiny, thin, light 12 inch retina MacBook that they could use even literally the same design or pretty close to it, as long as it had Apple Silicon in it. So that would be. If I could use my powers, I would will another MacBook into the line and it would be a thin, Light Retina MacBook.

[D]

All right, let's go to our final question. And not to say that there's a lot to play for, but one point separates one of you from a spot in the finals. So personal computers, phones, tablets, Apple has done it all. But what will we be celebrating when I take over the clockwise podcast in 2051 for Apple's 75th anniversary? I believe we'll start recording that in a, in a few moments, given how this one's run over. Maika, start us off.

[B]

I'm going to say that by 2051, Apple will have made the personal health device that truly matters. It's not going to just track your heart rate. It's going to do so much more than that. All these meaningful diagnostics. I'm saying this is a device that by 2050 one can look at your body processes and your, your blood sugar levels and, I don't know, smell your sweat and go, hey, I think you should get checked for this or this, this test should probably be done. It manages your chronic conditions in real time. It, it's just the all in one device. It's the new iPhone moment. But this time it's all about health.

[D]

Awesome. All right, Dan Morin.

[A]

Well, I mean, I think the first thing we'll be celebrating is that we're all still alive. That's great. It's good news. I'm glad we're all right for the 75th anniversary. I think we'll also be celebrating that the AIs have led us out to be on a podcast. That's really nice of them. When they're controlling the world. Maybe we'll even be celebrating the Apple finally came full circle and built a, built a car at last. It's finally the thing that's happening though. They'll come back to it, but I think What I'm really looking forward to is I know people poo poo it, but it's this idea of convergence. Heard a lot about this foldable phone that's coming out maybe this fall. I'm picturing a future where you've got your phone, you unfold it, and you got an iPad, and then you unfold it again and you've got yourself a laptop. Are you getting it? It's not three devices, it's one device, one Apple device that you take with it everywhere you go. And they'll call it the Apple Origami.

[D]

Very good. Jason, finish this off.

[C]

You know, it all makes sense when you break it down mathematically. And so that's what I've tried to do here because this is really easy. It's really easy. If you use Mac, it's obviously iOS 52 on the iPhone 42, running the A43 processor, and on the side some M30 Macs. I mean, who am I kidding here? We're going to be. We're going to be celebrating the survival of humanity if we're here in 25 years. And if we aren't, find me and tell me you told me so.

[D]

All right, let us do one final check. Check of the scoreboard. With 40 points, Jason Snell is the leader. After our final round of questioning, coming in for a spot in second and a spot in the finals, Dan Morin with 36. Just missing out, Micah Sargent at 35. Hey, third place is. Is good there. It is. We don't need to say how many actual panels are on the show.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, take it from me, third place is great on game shows.

[D]

And that.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And that brings us up to our. Our final yes. It's defend the indefensible. Here's how this round works. I am going to read Jason and Dan each their own statement. They have to defend. It's not a very nice thing that I'm going to read to them, but they have to defend it like it is the most natural thing. They'll have 20 seconds. And Jason, since you had the most points, would you like to go first or second?

[C]

I think I'll go second.

[D]

All right, so Dan Morin, here is your defend the indefensible. Remember, you have to defend this. It's appropriate that Apple was founded on April Fool's Day, as every one of their current products is a cruel joke.

[A]

Now, you could not be more right. I mean, the MacBooks have gotten too thin, they've gotten too light. I'm worried that I could drop One at any moment. They're so slick, they fly right out of my hands. The iPhone, it's made of glass. Who thought that was a good idea? You drop it, it totally shatters. I find that honestly, the desktops are overpriced. The laptops, again, too expensive. Is there even another stuff in the lineup? The HomePod, the Apple TV. These things haven't been updated in basically forever. And don't get me started on the Apple watch. They're still fighting.

[D]

All right, that Steve Jobs was telling you to stop. You've trashed his company enough. All right, Jason.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Tough bar to clear. It is. He filled the brief. My favorite episodes were when we had Chris Breen on and he could absolutely not defend the indefensible.

[C]

To say too nice.

[D]

Too nice a guy. So, Jason Snow, when I say I, I mean you. All this talk about the many products Apple has come up with during the time I've covered the company have made me realize one thing. I've wasted my life.

[C]

Oh my God, Phil, let me tell you, Let me take you back to the 90s when I had a choice. They said, you know, this Apple thing isn't going anywhere. Windows NT is the future. And not a day goes by where I don't think if I had taken that job at PC Computing magazine, ridden all the way up the org chart to the point where I would be the editor in chief of some PC magazine somewhere, where would I be now? The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal? Someplace like that's legitimate and not a guy sitting in his garage writing about these colorful computers. How sad.

[D]

Well, it's a very tough decision to make, but given the fact that he had to trash his entire adult lifestyle. Your winner is. Jason Snow. I think that's appropriate. On this Apple's 50th anniversary, however, I regret it all. The panelists did a terrific job today. Micah. Even after I threw you off by mispronouncing your name name and mocking your mattress. Dan, thanks forever for, for keeping the show warm for me. For my periodic 10 year appearances, this has been the six colors slash clockwise pundit showdown. And you know, keep watching the clock. Cuz I sure as hell didn't boom.