← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Episode 224: Slow Fashion & Inclusivity with Itohan and Marlee
02:04:07
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- [00:19]
Amanda
Welcome to Clothes Horse, the podcast that has cried so many times in the past week. It feels like I've lived 10 lives since the last episode, but apparently it was just a week ago. It's really, it's really one of those times right now, isn't it? I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode 224. Today we're going to be picking back up with my series about slow fashion and inclusivity. Basically, we're just gearing up for next week's epic panel discussion episode filled with super rad people. And in this episode, you're going to meet two more great, great humans who took part in that panel discussion. Itoha is the owner of HNI Collective, a fashion agency focused on sustainability and size inclusivity. Based in sunny Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Marley is a personal style coach and the host of Style Me Slowly, where she uses her platform to share sustainable size inclusive brands. And let me tell you, she has an amazing podcast voice. As you will discover in this episode, both Itoha and Marley are out there doing the very important work of getting others involved in slow fashion and supporting size inclusive slow fashion brands. Honestly, editing my conversations with them and getting to hear all these smart things they both said. It was like a balm on my scorched brain this week. It made me. It made me feel so happy and excited and I hope it will have the same impact on you. Before we jump into everything I have planned this week, I wanted to share the details of an upcoming fundraiser workshop I'm hosting to benefit survivors of the LA wildfires. I asked everyone on Instagram to vote on two different options for this workshop. And in basically a landslide vote, y'all decided you wanted the fundraiser workshop topic to be how to talk to others about slow fashion. So let's do this. Okay, what are we going to discuss in this virtual workshop? Well, why it's important to talk about fast fashion and slow fashion with the people in your life. How to meet people where they are and how to avoid using shaming or blaming language. How to deal with common responses like talking about fast fashion is classist or there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and so much more. And of course, we'll be sharing our own stories, successes, challenges in having these conversations and spending some quality time together. The workshop is happening on Wednesday, February 5th at 7pm and I think it will last about 90 minutes. Tickets cost $10, and in addition to access to the virtual workshop, you'll get a discount code for 50% off the clotheshorse merch shop and that's the iron on transfers and stickers, and I threw that into Sweeten the Deal in case you can't actually make the workshop but you want to support this fundraiser, at least you get something out of it other than, you know, the amazing feeling of doing good for the world, which is pretty good too. But anyway, you also get a discount, so there's that. All ticket sales will be donated to GoFundMes for LA Fire survivors. The workshop will be conducted via Zoom, and you can buy your tickets via Venmo or PayPal and I'll have all that information in the show notes. If you want to buy tickets for friends, just go ahead and you can forward the event info to them after I email it to you. All of the money will be donated to GoFundMes with less than 20% of their goal. I made this decision after listening to an NPR story about how these fundraisers have been pivotal for getting money in the hands of fire survivors super fast so they can pay for housing and personal items and food, etc. Because the fires might be contained right now, but. But the rebuilding work is just beginning and people are looking for places to live and people have lost everything that they owned. So I want to help them out. My hope is to sell 100 tickets, and to be honest, we're pretty far away from that goal at this point. But 100 tickets would mean donating $1000 and that feels pretty powerful. If this event is successful, meaning enough people show up and we raise some money, I want to do this every another month with a different topic. I've been thinking about how I, like personally, can work more mutual aid into what I do without overextending myself mentally and financially, which I have a tendency to do both. And this feels like a good approach, donating my time and using that to raise money. So we'll see how this one goes. But if it's successful, I want to keep doing this. I want to thank everybody who has been involved so far who bought a ticket for this or for the Small Business Consulting raffle. I'm so grateful for this amazing, compassionate community that always wants to help others. I wanted to take a moment to say thank you to all of you who reached out over the last week to tell me how much you enjoyed the Fighting Doomerism episode. That that means so much to me because I spent months thinking about how to tell that story and I think there's still so much more to say. So we're going to be exploring that throughout this year. I'll Tell you, I get nervous about talking about things that aren't clothes here on this podcast called Clothes Horse. But the reality is that I've been doing this for almost five years and it's always evolving. As a friend said in the DM today, I think your podcast is about clothes, but mostly about politics and how to be a better human. And that, that is so true. Like, that is my goal. Yes, we talk about clothes, but we talk about so much more. And it's all connected. And this year I have a lot of stories planned that sometimes involve clothes, literally. Like what it's like to run a thrift store, and sometimes only tangentially, like how creativity can fuel large scale change. This year we're also going to talk about how we can make a difference locally and how we can build communities around us and so much more. And sometimes it will involve clothes and sometimes it won't. I'll be the first to admit that the last week has been all caps brutal here in the United States, despite. You know, I need to listen to that doomerism episode myself, I guess, because the Trump administration unleashed a torrent of horrible executive orders ranging from mass deportation orders to removing the cap on prescription drug prices, to raising racing trans and non binary people, and even removing the US from the Paris climate agreement. And that's just the beginning of a very long list. And it happened in such a short period of time. Dustin and I have been using the term shock and awe to describe it. It's something we learned from watching the first Gulf War live on television as kids. I want to read the definition from Wikipedia for shock and awe to you, because it really nails what we're experiencing right now. Shock and awe, technically known as rapid dominance, is a military strategy based on the use of overwhelming power and spectacular displays of force to paralyze the enemy's perception of the battlefield and destroy their will to fight. Wow, that like really. That really captures it, right? Like a spectacular. A spectacle, right? A spectacle of really dark shit that makes you feel powerless, that destroys your will to fight. And I'm not gonna lie, I feel that so hard right now. Last week, sometime between a guy on threads telling me that he was reporting to me to CPS as a groomer and getting my kids taken away from me because I'm non binary. The joke's on him. My kid is an adult. Unless, I don't know, was he trying to take away Brenda? Because I will fight him over that. So there was that, and then there was just like watching people fight with one Another about whose fault all of this is. And it felt like people were fighting to the death, Internet style. Between all of that and just this general like, holy shit, what is going on? I'm trying to, like, minimize my news consumption. And yet it is just like, all bad news all the time. Which I will also say not set up for success here in maybe, like, keeping stuff in perspective a little bit. Because we don't use the alarm on our phones to wake up. We use a clock radio that Dustin thrifted, and it doesn't play an alarm sound when it goes off in the morning. It plays npr. And normally that is kind of like a nice way to wake up. Just some, like, soothing voices talking about something. It's kind of nice, right? But I will tell you, for the past week, I have awakened to just horrible news instantly every single morning. And that's. That's tough, right? This kind of stuff takes a toll. And I just. I said to Dustin, you know what? Like, I'm too tired. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to do Clothes Horse, because does everybody really need to hear from yet another mediocre white person? And he reminded me that I feel this way every few months. And it just means that I need to get some sleep, get off my phone, and maybe drink some water. And he's right. I got some good sleep that night, and I woke up feeling like, yes, we're going to do this. But it's easy to see how someone would feel like giving up right now, because it all feels so overwhelming, that shock and awe. It's intentional, and it leads to you feeling very discouraged and, like, giving up because you just don't even know where to begin. When a problem or all the problems seem so much larger than you, it's really hard to figure out where you need to begin. And this is a metaphor I have used in the past here on Closed Source. It's gross. I apologize to it. Especially as a big fan of elephants. It's really sad that elephants are the mascot of the Republican Party. Right? We don't talk about that enough, but I think it's really important that we do. Anyway. The metaphor that people bring up is, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, right? And I think that's where we are with what's going on here. We can't let the shock in all of it all shut us down. We have to say, okay, we're gonna chip away at this. We're gonna take care of this. And the good News is we're not eating that elephant alone. It's. It's not a real elephant. It's actually an elephant made of tofu, but it's like a huge tofu elephant. Anyway, we're all eating this together, and so we're gonna be able to eat a lot more and we're gonna be able to eat it a lot faster. And I wanna remind you that when you feel just, like, so overwhelmed that we're all here together. But I'll tell you, all week, my feelings have teetered somewhere between rage and fear. Someone should invent a word that truly captures that combination of feelings, because I think it's going to be very popular in 2025. The best one I could come up with was frage. And that sounds like a helpful storage bin from ikea. So don't let me invent the words. I'm just over here talking about tofu elephants. I don't know anything. When you're bombarded by bad news, that's shock and all, and you're overwhelmed with fear and rage and grief, it can be really difficult to see how you fit into making the world better. It can make you feel powerless to do anything at all. I think it's really easy to slip into doomerism when you feel like you just don't know how to help. And as I discussed last week, sure, doomerism feels easier because you just don't have to care anymore. It feels. It feels almost freeing. Right? Because being a good person is so hard in 2025, when the systems around us do not set us up for easily sticking to our values. And certainly doomerism, the sense of giving up, is really going around in a major way right now. That's why we had a whole episode about it last week. Ask me how many times I've seen someone, mostly on Reddit, I'm disconnecting myself from all of this stuff for the next four years. Let the people who voted for this shit, who didn't care enough to show up to vote, let them deal with the repercussions of their decisions. Okay, Doomer, I can't do that and neither can you. Because if you didn't care about a better world, if you didn't care about this planet and its people, you wouldn't be here listening to this. And we know that doomerism is not as easy and free as it appears at first glance. It's actually lonely. It actually makes you less happy. It just doesn't feel good. The thing is, we all have a choice. When it comes to any of the issues humans are facing right now, we can either be a part of the problem or we can be a part of the solution. And the good news is that you already are part of the solution. By being here and being a part of this community and many of the doing already, they're actually radical and revolutionary. We're out here making stuff, repairing stuff, shopping, secondhand, buying less, reusing and repurposing, upcycling, sewing, creating, talking, building community, caring about the people around us, even the ones we don't know at all. In the era of fast everything, many of us are completely disconnected from how something is made and the labor and skill required to create it. By making it ourselves, we experience the work, the frustration and the joy of creation. We understand why the prices of fast everything are an illusion built on low quality and human exploitations. By mending and repairing the things we love or choosing secondhand, we're turning our backs on the social norm that new is always better. We're giving a strong middle finger to a system that only makes low quality stuff for us while exploiting people in the name of profits. By building long term relationships with the stuff we own and wear and using and wearing it over and over again for years and repairing it when needed. We're breaking free of the convention that we should always be seen in something new and exciting. That success equals a steady flow of new stuff in our lives. This is some radical revolutionary thinking. And I'll also tell you, taking these things that we do every day because we care, that are actually pretty radical in themselves, like shopping, secondhand, like mending, like sewing, all of these things, we can actually use those habits as community building tools. Bring a bunch of people over to your house and teach them about mending. And while you're at it, let's just talk about like how to register to vote or what voting means, or how how to get involved in other parts of social justice. Like these are a gateway because these are conversation starters and they're relationship builders. And before you know it, you've got a whole group of people working together to do amazing things. Yes, one person cannot make a difference alone, but when we're all doing the same things together, AKA collective action, real change does happen. And I know the past week feels like a big old kick in the gut on top of so many other problems facing humanity right now. I'm like, please, could we get a day off from problems? It's okay to feel that way. It's okay to feel overwhelmed. The shock and all is intentional. Okay? So I want you to take a minute to rest. I want you to regroup. I want you to think. I want you to do something creative. Do something that makes you laugh or makes your heart grow 10 sizes because you're just so full of love for the people around you. Then know that we are going to get through this together. This community is full of super smart, passionate, creative, special people. And when we work together, we really can get things done. We're going to eat that whole tofu elephant, and we're going to do it so well. And speaking of rad people, let's jump into my conversation with Itoha. I'm going to warn you that Itoha's computer was misbehaving during our conversation, throwing out some random notification sounds. I cut a bunch of them, but she. She said so many super smart things that I had to keep in despite those sounds. So don't get freaked out and think that there's a secret laptop hiding somewhere in the room with you. We just keep things very authentic here at Clotheshorse. All right, do you want to introduce yourself to everyone?
- [18:18]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah. Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Itoha Essen Mota. I am the founder of H and I Collective, which is a fashion service agency based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And I do a variety of services including sewing, mending and alterations, and small batch production for brands.
- [18:38]
Amanda
And I met you this summer at the Clothes Horse Jamboree when you came with Ruby of spokes and Stitches. And isn't your studio near hers?
- [18:47]
Itoha Essen Mota
So I currently, like, operate out of, like, my home studio. So, yeah, we actually live in the same neighborhood.
- [18:54]
Amanda
What? That's so cute.
- [18:55]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, I know. How crazy is that?
- [18:58]
Amanda
That's amazing. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm excited to talk to you today because, like, as you just said, like, you actually work in the world of, like, creating better fit. Right. And in theory, like, helping brands become more size inclusive. So you actually come at it with, like, industry experience and knowledge. So what made you decide to start your own agency where you provide these services?
- [19:25]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, so I've been in the apparel, like, product development space for about, like, 5ish years now, which in layman terms just means I do the actual. I do the work to get something from, like, an original idea or sketch to be on the sales floor. So that includes sourcing materials and fabrics. That includes, like, actually sitting down and cutting all the materials and sewing them all together. So that's where I initially was doing that kind of work. But as someone who is plus size, I was doing this work, making clothes for brands for several years, and I was still struggling to find quality things that fit. And I knew other people were too. So the start of me choosing to make my own agency was me thinking of, how can I give fat people more options? Specifically, how can I make sustainable fashion accessible to all sizes of bodies? Because I know even in my experience, whenever I say, like, sustainable fashion to other plus sized folks, their brain kind of like shuts off because they just.
- [20:37]
Marlee Rosen
Assume that they can't be involved instantly.
- [20:39]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah. And that's a big problem. Right. Because I feel like when I. Anytime I post about, you know, slow fashion, more sustainable options, two things come up right away, which are, one, well, too bad sustainable fashion doesn't clothe fat people. And the other one, which of course I'm sure you're already guessing, is it's only for rich people. Right. Like, someone told me a few weeks ago that I was like a rich and out of touch person. And I was like, literally, I would love for you to see how I live. I don't even have central heat. Like, please.
- [21:09]
Itoha Essen Mota
Right. I would love to be in a tax bracket to say that.
- [21:12]
Amanda
So. Yeah, I know. Right, right. I'm like, I would love to be wealthy and out of touch, guys. It'd be so luxurious. I wouldn't have a space heater on my feet right now. Right. But yeah, I think people's brains shut down immediately. And we can say, actually there are many ways that you can be a part of the slow fashion movement that have nothing to do with it. Buying expensive clothing, that one is the easy problem to solve because you can shop secondhand, you can make your stuff last and you can mend it, and you can do a great job at laundry and you can buy less stuff. And this whole laundry list of things that you can do as an individual to be a part of slow fashion, that has nothing to do with money. But when people say there aren't clothes for fat people that are sustainable, I'm like, that's where I. That's where I'm like, you know what, you're right. There are very few. Right. Obviously Nico is doing a lot of work to show that there are many more options than you think. But it does feel as if there's. There's very little out there.
- [22:17]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, yeah. When people say there's not a lot of options, I don't necessarily argue about that because unfortunately they are. Right. Like, we're at a point where it's basically 20, 25 at this point, but it's still significantly difficult for even me as myself, who's like a US woman's like 2022, it's difficult for me to find clothes. So when people hear statements like the infamous phrase, you know, you, there's enough clothing to close six generations of people on the planet. But if I can't find clothes today right now, what does that mean for me?
- [22:57]
Amanda
Yeah, I mean, that's a great call out, right? Because yes, there are secondhand clothes out there in larger sizes, but a lot less. And when I was talking with Nico, one thing that Nico brought up was that there are more and more of these, like ultra fast fashion brands that are popping up solely to sell fast fashion plus size clothing because they see the financial opportunity there. And I'll tell you, when I go thrifting, like out here, there's a large section of plus size clothing in every thrift store. But they're horrible clothes. You know, they're like shein or like weird Amazon things that don't have labels. Cause like, that's how little whoever sold them cared about brand.
- [23:39]
Itoha Essen Mota
Right? Not even like a full brand. It's just A, B, C, dq.
- [23:43]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And you're like, oh, there's literally not even like seam allowance in this garment. Like it might be glued together. And so, yeah, like, I mean, I'm curious to hear what you have to say. I like to think that there has been progress since say 2020 in terms of more size inclusivity from slow fashion brands. But is that true or am I just being like, am I just being falsely optimistic?
- [24:13]
Itoha Essen Mota
I definitely do say is true to some extent, because I definitely seen some brands like kind of go back to the drawing board and try to figure out how to expand our sizing. But also, like, on the other side of the coin, there are some folks that are claiming that there's a slow fashion recession because as brands are trying to also gain the capital to expand their sizing, they're not getting capital at all.
- [24:40]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, it's true. I mean, with a lot of my clients, like the big challenge that we face actually is not that they don't make great stuff or stuff that their customers want to wear. It's that they need money to make this stuff and it's hard to get that money.
- [24:57]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah. So I definitely see that there is progress, but there are some things stifling that progress. That's definitely. And you know, actually gaining the money to produce clothing for multiple sizes is the problem because it's all these things are an investment, but those investments it costs money.
- [25:17]
Amanda
So we, we talked about this and the roundtable discussion, which, to be fair, I have not listened to for like a month. But something that really stuck out to me is I asked you, I said, do you think that it is too hard to make clothes in more sizes? Because I'll tell you, whenever a slow fashion brand, well, really any brand gets called out on this, on social media, it's always like, well, you guys, it's like really, really hard. And like, we just can't do it. It's too risky. Like, people in those sizes don't show up to buy stuff. Which is. These are excuses that I have literally in meetings where it would be like, we made one crappy collection and added one size and it didn't actually fit right at all and now no one bought it. And it's because larger people don't buy clothes. And you're like, excuse me, but like, this is. You say it out loud and it sounds absurd, but the number of times I've heard this said in a meeting. So do you think one, larger size people don't buy clothes, and two, it's too risky to make clothes in more sizes?
- [26:20]
Itoha Essen Mota
I mean, if plus size folks didn't buy clothes, I mean, we wouldn't be running around.
- [26:25]
Amanda
We see a lot more naked people. Exactly. Like every. We'd be used to it. We'd be like, oh, yes, whatever. That's because they don't buy clothes.
- [26:33]
Itoha Essen Mota
They're nudists.
- [26:34]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like what? We shouldn't be surprised. But that's like, I literally remember. I don't know if you are familiar. I don't even know if this brand is around. But it's like one of those like brands that you see at like Nordstrom Rack or something. It's called BB Dakota. It's like fast fashion. It's like boring. I remember being at a trade show in the BB Dakota booth and asking the owner, like, okay, but do you make this in extended sizes? And she literally said to me, well, people that size don't even buy clothing. And I was like, what did we do? Okay, well, we're not buying anything from you. But you just said that out loud. So why do you think that more brands aren't, like, especially in the slow fashion space where in theory, the people who own those brands, their values align with ours. Why aren't they making more sizes?
- [27:24]
Itoha Essen Mota
I think they're not making more sizes ultimately because basically it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of effort to Actually make things fit. And make things fit, right?
- [27:35]
Amanda
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
- [27:38]
Itoha Essen Mota
And I feel like, especially for small brands, like, in order for people to feel like, to feel comfortable buying your things, if you don't get the fit right on the first try, it's very unlikely people are going to give you a second chance.
- [27:54]
Amanda
This is so true because I have worked places where they have, like, rushed through the fit where it's like, oh, well, what you said was a one axis, a large or whatever, and they don't understand why no one wants to come back and buy those sizes again.
- [28:10]
Itoha Essen Mota
With larger brands, you can kind of get away with, oh, the fit wasn't right. But, like, we're selling things so often that, you know, we won't miss it if something's wrong. But for a small business, if you get, you know, 50 bad reviews, that matters.
- [28:25]
Amanda
Yeah. Yeah. I'm assuming that most of the time when a client comes to work with you, like, they are already pretty passionate about inclusive sizing. But do you find that they are afraid? And if so, like, how do you talk to them about that?
- [28:41]
Itoha Essen Mota
I mean, are people sometimes afraid? Absolutely. So when they are. When there are, like, concerns, I will go through what items that they're. What items that they're potentially selling or what items that they're trying to put into production and actually make sure that the fit is where it needs to be. So they feel comfortable. They feel confident enough to actually put it on sale.
- [29:07]
Amanda
Yeah. I mean it. And like, I think for people who are listening to this who haven't worked in that area of, like, technical design, it's a lot more, like, complex than it seems like it would be. Like, you don't just, like, make the pattern larger the whole way around as it grades up, right?
- [29:27]
Itoha Essen Mota
No, absolutely not. That's actually a very common misconception on how to expand your size range. Because when it comes to grading, what often happens is they'll have one pattern that's like a size medium. And generally the way that grading works is you'll add a few measurements here and there to transfer from one side to the other. So you'll have a size medium, and then, you know, maybe add like half an inch up here and half an inch on the other side. Now make your large, and then you do the same thing and then make sure extra large. And then you're like, okay, you do have your 1x2x3x. But what often happens is after an extra large, the. The numbers legitimately don't math anymore because that would mean a 4x is someone who's 6ft.
- [30:13]
Amanda
I mean, I've definitely, like, received first samples where the arms were like 4ft long because they just graded everything up the same amount. They were like, we'll just add two inches to every measurement on here as we grade up and suddenly. Yeah, yeah. No, it, it's, it's real. So, you know, if you were like, for small brands who are listening to this, because there are a lot of, like, you know, small business owners, designers in the slow fashion community who want to do the right thing by offering more sizes, how would you tell them to get started on this? Like, what's. Where do you begin?
- [30:55]
Itoha Essen Mota
I say where you would begin is when you're going through your pattern process, like actually creating your patterns. Try to work with two sizes. So work with like your medium, but then also try to work with a model or a mannequin that's a 2x or 3x. So that way you're getting your wide range of sizes in the very beginning. Because instead of trying to have one medium and then try to grade it to a 4X, what you really should be doing is having your medium and then having your 2-3x mannequin or model and making your two patterns based off of that and evening out the difference.
- [31:40]
Amanda
That's really interesting because, I mean, you are right that like, generally people just are like, oh, we'll just keep grading up from this. When I worked at Modcloth, we actually we graded up from medium, but then we also graded up maybe from. Maybe we graded around 2x, maybe it was 1x. Completely different pattern, completely different fit model, completely different samples, completely different tech working on it. And I mean, I'm not saying that our sizing was. Our fit was always perfect because I know like, one of the complaints there that was that it was like two hourglass. But I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Like, hearing that, what do you think of that?
- [32:20]
Itoha Essen Mota
It makes a lot of sense because when it comes to, I mean, bodies, period, are very nuanced. And especially when you start getting to plus sizes, people just carry weight in very different areas. So what I would often see is if they have like one plus size model, it will just be the same hourglass figure. And they said, that's good, that's enough. We did our job. But not everyone's an hourglass. Some people are pears, some people are apples. You know, some people are pomegranates. If we were talking about fruits.
- [32:54]
Amanda
So the pomegranate just like filled my head with like, all kinds of Images, but it was mostly like a sexy pomegranate wearing like high heels and walking around. I don't know why. Pomegranates are a sexy fruit. I think we can all agree, honestly. But I know, like, it's true. Like, I mean, just in general, regardless of size or height, bodies come in many different formats, if you will. Some people have short torsos, some have long torsos, big boobs, little boobs, long arms, short arms, et cetera, et cetera. And so we already know that like the most brands they're grading, no matter what it is, it's not going to fit everyone perfectly. Right. But it just, I feel like it becomes sort of like amplified when you get into the larger sizes because these mistakes, not mistakes, but just differences become more exaggerated, possibly because of the pattern making, possibly because of bodies being larger. And I think, like, sometimes it can make a brand impossible to shop if you don't have that body type. Right. I mean, when I was working at Nasty Gal, they made this policy, this the dumbest shit I've ever heard. I'm going to say that out loud, that they didn't want any of the tops to fit over like a 34C. Like, they didn't want anything to go over a C cup in terms of accommodating the tops. And it was because the founder, Sophia, she had like a smaller chest and wider hips. And so that was what all the grading and like fit was designed around. And it's like, okay, well great for people who have that body type, but what about everyone else?
- [34:33]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:34]
Itoha Essen Mota
And I mean, that's. That just goes to show, like one thing that I would definitely recommend when it comes to like creating a brand or trying to get things to actually launch, you need to think about people that aren't you.
- [34:45]
Amanda
Yeah, I mean, honestly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the same thing. Like, honestly, when I would be like bringing in, you know, assistant buyers onto my team, it's like their first job. I would be like the first thing you have to learn and get over is that you're not buying for you. Right. And just because you don't like it doesn't mean that someone else does. And you got to take yourself out of the equation. Obviously. It's like even more important when we're talking about fit. Don't be designing clothes just to fit you. Yeah, but it's pretty common, especially with, like, if it's like a celebrity founded brand or something like that, you know, it's like, oh, those clothes were designed to fit that Person's body type. It's like, when you say it out loud, it sounds so silly and like, bad business planning.
- [35:29]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, but like that. I mean, for a lot of folks, that's how they get into the fashion space. They're like, oh, well, I wanted something and I couldn't find this. I'm going to make my own brand. And making one item that fits you is different than making an entire brand where you're making multiple sizes of something and you're trying to get multiple folks of people to buy it.
- [35:49]
Amanda
I mean, when you say it out loud, it's pretty obvious, but, you know, somehow this world works that way. Anyway, I don't know if you know who that influencer Danielle Bernstein is, but.
- [36:03]
Itoha Essen Mota
I've heard of her and I've heard of. Heard of the scandal.
- [36:06]
Amanda
Oh, it's always scandal. And she, like, I think her clothes are just made to sell at TJ Maxx or something. Like, they, like, she promotes them online so it looks like a real brand. But then T.J. maxx buys them. But she. All of her grading, her entire fit size chart basically is planned around her being an extra small on the size chart, even though she's not an extra small. And that's okay. Right. But so if someone who's more like a medium large is like the extra small for a brand, then everything fits bigger, I guess, than you would expect. And so you get tons of returns and people being very disoriented and confused when they're trying to place an order. And, you know, like, I know Universal Standard does their own sizing, but they're very explicit about it. So you're not going in there and saying, like, oh, I'm gonna wear the same size at Universal Standard that I wear at, like, the Gap or whatever. But, like, I just think the Daniel Bernstein thing is like the most egregious and hilarious version of it. All of, like, a vanity sizing, but for yourself, just for yourself. Because, you know, you instantly hear the argument, like, there aren't, like, sustainable clothes for fat people. Right. What do you say when people say that to you? Oh, you're like, oh, you're right. Go home.
- [37:24]
Marlee Rosen
Or.
- [37:25]
Itoha Essen Mota
So I tried basically to just meet people where they are. I. I feel the jadedness. So I'm not going to automatically tell you that you're wrong, but I am gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna show you different brands that aren't size inclusive and may potentially fit your style, because it's definitely. I definitely have been on my social media just Post different brands that I've seen that have been doing the work. Because there is a very big disconnect on folks who are asking for things and folks that are doing the work and they're just not seeing themselves.
- [38:00]
Amanda
It's true. Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, of course I don't blame anyone for feeling as if there are no clothes out there for them because you know, these people who are doing the work with their brands, they usually don't have the budget to like market themselves in that way. And so how are you supposed to find them exactly?
- [38:20]
Itoha Essen Mota
Like whenever you type in, you know, on Google plus size clothes that fit me, the first thing you're gonna find is, you know, your teemus and your sheins because they have the money and the budget to spend on three super bowl commercials to advertise you things. So for the.
- [38:39]
Amanda
Yeah, I forgot about those. Oh my God.
- [38:42]
Itoha Essen Mota
Never forget Burning. It's burning to my memory. But you know, for a small brand who is doing the work to produce clothing ethically and doing it from, you know, size extra small to 4x, like they usually don't have the type of budget to make sure that their things are seen at the very top. When you're typing something into Google or typing something into Instagram.
- [39:11]
Amanda
How do you find these people?
- [39:15]
Itoha Essen Mota
I mean, ironically, I scroll on Instagram social media for a very long time because ultimately it just involves time and effort and I mean for a lot of reasons folks don't really have the time or they just don't really know where to look. So honest, honestly, I really do sit down and I will scroll on Instagram for hours being typing in like plus size thrift stores to see like what thrift stores I find. And then like when I find a store that works, I really click the tab next to it to be like, oh, find similar brands. Like I won't sit there for hours on end and start looking for like minded brands and I'll post about them on social media. Well, also, yeah, so little things like that is how I personally find brands. Also with Tick Tock, even though like Tick Tock may or may not be banned in the next 30 days, which I'm very, very sad about. That was, that was crucial.
- [40:20]
Amanda
No, I feel like the algorithm on TikTok, I mean like, listen, I have some concerns about TikTok tok. I don't think, I think it's still gonna be around in 30 days, but I will, for better or worse, their algorithm will just keep bringing you what you're looking for. Like, it's too smart. Yeah. Like, I feel like if you sat down and really like spent some time on TikTok, trained it for what you like, you would be getting served brands non stop.
- [40:47]
Itoha Essen Mota
That's exactly what happened. So after a while, I mean, you do the search for like five, six hours and then all of a sudden it's just coming to you and all you gotta do is write it down and save them. Like them.
- [40:58]
Amanda
I mean, I love that you like share these brands on your Instagram and like just on social media as a whole. Because, you know, like you said a lot of people don't have five or six hours to invest in their TikTok. Although, like, like I said, sound investment time, but like, you know, it, it is just like so hard. And to be honest, even for like straight sized people who are looking for like sustainable, ethical clothing that they can afford, it's also really challenging because most of what you see, like top line on social media are these companies that have a big marketing budget. Right. And if you're not like, oh, I, Christy dawn is my aesthetic or Everlane or Reformation, you would just assume that people with your style, like, let's just say you were goth, you would just say, oh, I guess goth people don't get to be sustainable. And then you might just go place another dog order or something. Yeah. And so I think, I mean, my thought here is like the way that we support these brands and make them more accessible to more people is by sharing them. Like it's like a word of mouth thing. Yeah.
- [42:11]
Itoha Essen Mota
Oh yeah, definitely. Like, you'd be surprised how much, you know, sharing someone's post does for people. It feels like it's nothing. But more eyes is potentially more money.
- [42:24]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah. Even if it's like one more eye and that person buys something and then they love it and they talk about it to their friends, then there's two more customers and then four more. And I think like, if you see a brand that you like that is doing work that like aligns with what's important to you, you should 100% share it with people even if you can't afford what they're selling right now. Because it, it's sort of like a long term investment in our community.
- [42:51]
Itoha Essen Mota
Absolutely.
- [42:52]
Amanda
Like, okay, so something that's been on my mind and this is because I, I should be spending more time scrolling on TikTok, but instead I'm scrolling on Reddit. And Reddit is a place of like, currently like massive doomerism. And I've been thinking about it A lot. Hell, which basically is like, everything sucks. The world is ending. We're never gonna fix anything. Just give up. Go buy from TEMU or whatever you need to do to feel happy. And of course, I don't believe that that's true at all, which is good. But I should probably take a break from Reddit before it becomes real to me. But, you know, like, the common sentiment is like, well, like, fashion is fucked and it's never gonna be okay either, and we should just, like, burn it all down. And, you know, there's a part of me that is like, there are a few brands, I wouldn't mind if they just, like, disappeared right now, including one that has, like, a big campus in Philade where you live, but because I think they're really damaging. But do you have optimism that, like, people who love fashion, like, you can make it better?
- [43:56]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, I personally do have some optimism that we can make things better, because one, it was better before with it was.
- [44:05]
Amanda
This is a true story.
- [44:06]
Itoha Essen Mota
Fashion as itself is not something that's happening for, like, 50, 60 years. It's maybe been like 20 max. So we can. We can easily go back to that. And even in, like, the more immediate stance, yes, there's a lot of doomism that, oh, well, the world's already falling apart. The world's already burning. We might as well just buy temu in the same breath. There are people that are actively choosing to buy nothing or to buy better. Like, there's. There's an entire movement of, like, under consumerism or under consumption corps. Like, these things are also happening in real time as well.
- [44:46]
Amanda
Do you think that temu's next super bowl commercial should be the world is burning, so just buy temu.
- [44:53]
Itoha Essen Mota
I mean, Kim Kardashian already did that, so it's fine.
- [45:00]
Amanda
I forgot about that. The weird nipple bra thing. Oh, my. Such plastic garbage. Yeah, no, I do. I do feel like you make really good points. There is that there are already all these people who care out there, and we just need to get more people. It's not even that people don't care. They just don't know that there are ways that you can show your care, I think. And I think when you know other people care makes you feel good about caring because you're like, yeah, okay, I'm not the only person. Like, I don't know when I was, like, really in it, working for Fast Fashion, I felt like I was the only person in the world who was worrying about this stuff. And how gratifying was it to find out that there are all these people all over the world who feel the same way. Like, it, like, activated me emotionally to, like, do more work, basically.
- [45:44]
Itoha Essen Mota
Exactly. And like, even for me personally, like, one of the reasons why I started H and I collected to begin with is because I was doing a lot of, like, sewing and mending work for myself and like, for my loved ones for the longest time. Because I'm just. I'm just short and I destroy clothes really easily. So I was always doing the work to, like, sew and mended fix things. And I've had folks being like, you don't understand how much this meant to me that you were able to fix this. I'm sitting here like, I. I've just fixed a hole in your pants. But that just goes to show that, like, a lot of people do care and they want to go back to a space where they're not being shoved. Ads in their face 24 7. They want to be able to have pants that you could be able to hem because of extra 2 inches in it. They want. Yeah, they want clothes that have extra buttons in them. So if a button falls off, they don't need to throw the garment out. They can just be able to put another button on, which I don't know when we stop doing that.
- [46:45]
Amanda
You know what? I remember in 2020, I read some survey. It was like, done in the uk and I mean, I don't remember the exact, Exact statistic, but the. Basically the, the moral of the story or the. I guess the. The synopsis of it all was that most people will just throw something out if a button falls off of it. And I was like, scandalized. I know.
- [47:09]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah. If you want to know what radicalized me, that that was. That was one of 30 of them.
- [47:16]
Amanda
Yeah. No, I mean, I was like, wait, what? You know, like, that's shocking. But I actually just saw a thread earlier today where someone was like, hey, if you want to stop being part of the problem, don't throw something out just because the zipper broke. Go get a new zipper put into it. And you know what? True story. Like, I'm going to tell you, my least favorite thing to do involving a sewing machine is replace a zipper. And I have accepted that. I'm terrible at it. I'm frustrated. I never do a great job. It takes me forever. And so now I just take it in to get fixed. It's not that much money. And suddenly, like, I have now I'm gonna have this dress for like five more years at least. You know, exactly like, that's the thing is that, I mean, I know some of the really bad fast fashion, especially the stuff that is just a bunch of letters or is from Amazon or Shein is generally not very, let's say, highly repairable. Right. Cause I have friends who, like, have mending shops, and they're like, yeah, when someone brings in an Amazon thing, one of those letters brands, I am just. It's. It's sad, but I would say most clothes can be fixed, and I'm always getting into some sort of trouble getting caught on a fence or, you know, dumping a whole thing of spaghetti sauce on myself or whatever, and I somehow, most of the time, can fix it. I feel like you're out there, you're like, preaching the gospel of slow fashion all the time to people. Oh, my God.
- [48:38]
Itoha Essen Mota
Thank you.
- [48:39]
Amanda
When people are sort of like, I don't know, I'm overwhelmed. I don't know where to begin. Where do you tell them to begin?
- [48:46]
Itoha Essen Mota
Well, I tell them to begin. Look at your. Look at one. Look at your closet. Look at the things that are actually in there and figure out, are these things that I actually wear, or are these just things that Instagram told me that I needed to wear and I bought them, and here we are.
- [49:05]
Amanda
Yeah, we're all guilty of that one.
- [49:07]
Itoha Essen Mota
So that's definitely where I tell people to start. Because the best way to even participate in, like, the sustainable fashion space is to not buy things. Like, literally look at what you already have and decide if you need to get something new. Can I get that secondhand? Can I get that from, you know, a slow fashion fashion brand? Like, you know, the general gospel that we preach, you know, secondhand first, local second, and then if all else fails, then find you.
- [49:42]
Amanda
Yeah, I mean, I think. I think that is. It is funny because, like, once again, when people are like, well, slow fashion is only for rich people. And I'm like, actually, the best thing you can do to be a part of the slow fashion movement is to just wear what you already have, and that doesn't cost you any money.
- [49:59]
Itoha Essen Mota
Exactly. Like, if. If people were to leave away with anything, if sustainable fashion is not only to throw out everything you have and buy organic cotton clothing, is keeping the shit you like for as long as possible.
- [50:12]
Amanda
It's true. I do get messages sometimes, though, where people tell me they're gonna do that.
- [50:16]
Itoha Essen Mota
I'm like, no, don't, please, please don't.
- [50:18]
Amanda
Please don't. I'm like, please don't. Yeah.
- [50:19]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah. Because, like, I. I get it. You know, you hear that polyester is plastic for the first time. So you're like, okay, so I just got new heat my entire wardrobe. And I feel that.
- [50:30]
Amanda
I mean, we all have felt that for sure. It's usually in like August when you're like super sweaty and you're like, that's it, it's all going in the trash, right?
- [50:39]
Itoha Essen Mota
But like, don't, don't, don't throw everything out yet because, I mean, you still have it and it still fits and it still works. So just hold on to it as long as possible. But then when you're ready to buy something new, you know, then we go through the cadence of, you know, looking for a second hand, then seeing you can find it local or from, you know, unethical brand. And then it follows fails. Buy better.
- [51:04]
Amanda
Yeah, and buy something and buy, buy better. We mean like something you're gonna wear for a long time, you know, and you want to take care of, you know, and that, that is a hard transition psychologically, you know, like it. I mean, we've all been raised on fast fashion at this point, you know, and like there, I don't know, we're meant to, like, I mean, all of this is designed to get us to not think about what we buy, right? And so when you have, when you are actually like, I'm gonna think about it, it's hard. It's like you're kind of working against this whole, like, machine that is doing everything in its power to make you not think about it.
- [51:47]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, exactly. Like, even when it comes to thrifting, the number one thing, because I'm a plus size person who, honestly, the majority of my closet is thrifted. And the first thing people tell me is that like, well, I can't thrift on plus size. I don't got energy for that. And you know what? I hear you. The thing about thrifting is that there is less convenience. And that's the reality of the situation. You can go to a thrift store and not find anything. But part of the process of, you know, thinking about things before you buy them and doing better is being comfortable with the idea that you can't find exactly what you want when you want it.
- [52:28]
Amanda
I mean, it's different, right? Especially now because like, I could probably right now, while we are recording this, like, order something on Amazon and I might even be able to get it like today.
- [52:38]
Itoha Essen Mota
And it's.
- [52:39]
Amanda
It's 5:00pm yeah, yeah. Like, we live in this time of like, literally instant gratification. And thrifting is rarely that. I mean, I'LL here's an example. This weekend, my Pyrex measuring cup, you know, like the glass kind, it fell out of the cabinet and it broke into a thousand pieces. And Dustin was like, well, if it broke that much, it was on its way out. And I was like, touche. You're probably right. I was like, well, I'm just gonna thrift one this weekend. Well, you know, because this is how thrifting works. Preaching to the choir here. Went to five thrift stores. No one had one. And I'm saying to myself, okay, well, I'm just gonna keep looking and waiting, and in the meantime, I'm gonna use, like, a glass jar to measure, you know, and that'll be okay because I know it's a pint, right? And I can eye it up. And if I really wanted to get weird, I could get out a ruler and put little marks on it, Whatever, right? But that's how it is. And it's not like I'm not, like, suffering from my lack of measuring cup. I could go order one on Amazon, like, right now and be here by tomorrow, probably. But that's not the point of it.
- [53:46]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, exactly. Like, whenever you go to a thrift store, I come in with an empty mind, because the second I start having thoughts, they're gone. I don't even.
- [53:53]
Amanda
Oh, yeah.
- [53:55]
Itoha Essen Mota
I don't go to the thrift store and say what I need. I. I go there and it tells.
- [53:59]
Amanda
Me, don't say it out loud. Just keep it to yourself. It's like a birthday wish. Keep it inside. I say that all the time. I'm like, if you say out loud today, I'm looking for a food processor, even though you saw a thousand last week, you're not gonna see one for six months. So keep it inside. It's your birthday wish. But, yeah, I mean, it's just. It takes time, and it's different. And maybe to someone who's listening to this conversation, who is not an avid thrifter like us, that sounds physically painful that you would have to wait. But in a weird way, I'm never like, oh, I'm so sad because I didn't find that thing yet so fast. Like, to me, it's. It's like part of the experience, I guess.
- [54:40]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely agree. Like, it is. I feel like it is part of the experience. And, you know, the general idea of not. Of getting away from. Isn't gratification, because that's the way you're going to be able to feel comfortable not getting things 24 7. That's how you're going to be able. That's how you're going to be comfortable of buying better. Because buying better means not buying something, but buying something else. And if the general gist is, well, I need it, so I want it, so I got it, I mean, you're just gonna get the person that comes.
- [55:12]
Amanda
To you and it's not going to necessarily be the best thing. I mean, I think that's could be as. You know, it's interesting because sometimes I think when you say buy better to people. Right. Their brain immediately goes to buy more expensive. Yeah, yeah. And that's not necessarily true. I mean, we know that. We know all the gross things about clothes and markups and how they're not always. The pricing means nothing really. But I think that people often think that when you say buy better, you're meaning spend more money. But what we're really saying is like, be more thoughtful.
- [55:49]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah. Be more intentional. Actually think about things before buying them.
- [55:54]
Amanda
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I think that's, that's so true. Do you have any, like, final advice, words of wisdom, something you got to get off your chest about anything that we talked about? Hmm.
- [56:09]
Itoha Essen Mota
I guess in general with the idea of like advocating for brands to have more size inclusivity and things of that sort. Never underestimate the power of just existing and being vocal on what you want.
- [56:24]
Amanda
Yeah.
- [56:25]
Itoha Essen Mota
We didn't get this. We didn't get this far in brands. You know, bring a size exclusive, bringing a bunch of exercises and then, you know, taking them away. Besides that they did, they did it for the five seconds because it was in high demand.
- [56:40]
Amanda
So you have to keep demanding. So we just got to keep being demanding after they give up. I really hate that. I mean, because I've like worked multiple places who have done this and we've seen it in like really high profile ways with brands too, where they're like, we're going to do this whole initiative and we're doing all this marketing and we're bringing in all these sizes and it's the dawn of a new era. Like, you can almost hear the CEO giving some spiel about it. And then like three months later, it's like it never happened. And I think that, I mean, one so stupid. Like, I, I had a conversation with a guy who has, he's retired now, but he's been an executive like for like Walmart and like, I don't know, luxury brands and whatnot, where his whole job is supply chain. Right. And it was at this event in Tempe, where I was moderating a panel discussion about why fashion needs to change. And this is a guy who's worked in these industries for so long that he feels like he owes this debt to the planet and future generations to end fast fashion. And I asked him, I said, you know, what's interesting to me is I see so many brands out there who are trying to compete with Shein and they can't. They're never going to be able to. Or they'll try some new idea like extended sizing or, you know, any number of other things and they'll try it for like two weeks and then they give up and pivot. And I asked him, I said, why does it always feel like the executives of these companies are so short sighted that they can't see beyond two weeks from now? You know, and if they're going to keep making garbage clothes that like destroy our planet, soon there won't be any customers around to buy all the garbage clothes from them. And he said, honestly, it's because they're shortsighted that they really. Unfortunately, the way the industry works right now and the way CEOs are sort of, I don't know, developed into CEOs, you're only supposed to be thinking about the short term. Like, the longest you're allowed to think about is like the end of the year. And I think that if we show up and I mean, I'm using the term harass, maybe that's too, too dark.
- [58:49]
Itoha Essen Mota
I don't.
- [58:50]
Amanda
But okay. If we show up and are loud and harass them about like, hey. So I thought, like, what, what the fuck? What's up with this, like plus size initiative? Then you like walked away from. And enough of us do it, they're going to be forced to think about continuing on and not like giving up on these things because they can only react to what's happening right in front of them. So we need to like, be in front of them.
- [59:12]
Itoha Essen Mota
Oh, yeah, no, I definitely advocate for bullying corporations. Corporations aren't people.
- [59:16]
Amanda
You heard it here first. True story though.
- [59:22]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yeah, but like, you know, you're going to advocate for that. You, you have to do the work. And if I see as a customer that you said you're gonna do this work and you didn't, I'm gonna say something about it.
- [59:32]
Amanda
Yeah. And I'm not gonna buy stuff from you.
- [59:34]
Itoha Essen Mota
And I went to folks and I do it either.
- [59:37]
Amanda
Right, right. Yeah. And I'm always telling people, I'm like, you know, there's this weird thing where and I can't like, I can't put my finger on why this happens, but people will legit sell out their own values, their own friends, the people in their lives for a good deal on clothes. Can you please explain that to me? None of us can. It's dark.
- [60:01]
Itoha Essen Mota
No, I, I wish I had an answer for you because the amount just me existing on the Internet, the amount of times I've seen people advocate for, well, this brand is not obligated to make a size for you. Maybe you should just lose weight. And it's like, guys, it's closed it literally.
- [60:16]
Amanda
I know, I know.
- [60:17]
Itoha Essen Mota
I'm like, actually take it down enough.
- [60:19]
Amanda
You're literally going scorched earth, expending all this energy to defend Shein's honor or some shit. I'm like, I want you to take a step back. I mean, I hate when people say touch grass, but maybe just go out and touch the grass and think about like what, you're just like selling out human people for cheap clothes, right? I know. I mean, I don't say that to them, but maybe I should. I have this moment the other day. I was like, I should just start like really being sassy with people on the Internet, which is, I think, you know, many trolls have had that origin story themselves. But I definitely was like, let's people need more real talk about this. Yeah. Well, it was so fun to talk to you today and I'm glad that you took this time for me, even during this like holiday week. Although I'm totally working. But aren't we all always? We are. Yeah, all of us. Especially all of us in like the slow fashion world. We're working like all the time.
- [61:25]
Justin Travis White
Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support.
- [61:32]
Amanda
Spokes and Stitches is a size inclusive pattern making and sewing studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Pattern maker Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of designing and making their own clothes. If you're looking to expand your design skills beyond following store bought patterns, check out Ruby's flagship Sloper workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours. No more full bust, flat seat or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional services such as pattern digitization, size charts, pattern making and grading services for indie slow fashion brands that want to prioritize inclusive sizing. You can find Ruby on Instagram @spokenSandStitches and get in touch with her for professional services at www.spokesandstitches.com Selena Sanders a.
- [62:42]
Justin Travis White
Social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum style Minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover more@shiftwheeler.com late to the Party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold. Floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram. Latetothepartypeople Vino Vintage Based just outside of la, we love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on Instagram Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Page is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us out@dylanpage.com and find us on Instagram ylanpage lifeandstyle Salt hats purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram Althats Gentle Vibes Vintage we are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics. We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe but in your home too.
- [65:02]
Amanda
We have thousands of killer vintage pieces.
- [65:05]
Justin Travis White
Ready for their next adventure. See them all on Instagram. Entalvibesvintage Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace located in the historic Eastern Market Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online store@thumbprintdetroit.com and find us on Instagram thumbprintdetroit. Vagavan Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in.
- [65:55]
Amanda
Downtown Las Vegas, Nevada.
- [65:58]
Justin Travis White
Not only do we sell in Las.
- [65:59]
Amanda
Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale.
- [66:02]
Justin Travis White
Markets in San Francisco as well as.
- [66:04]
Amanda
At a curated boutique called Lux and.
- [66:06]
Justin Travis White
Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana.
- [66:09]
Amanda
Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond.
- [66:12]
Justin Travis White
Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL location located in the Arts District of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram vagabondvintagedtlv and keep an eye out for their website coming fall of 2022.
- [66:40]
Amanda
Thank you so much to Itolha for spending some time with me. Please give her a follow on Instagram because she really is out there spreading the gospel of slow fashion. She and Ruby of Spokes and Stitches just had a clothing swap in Philadelphia two weeks ago and it sounds like it was really good. I talked to Ruby on the phone last week. I hope that there's another one in the future so I can join them because I am a little jealous of how much fun they had. And speaking of other rad people who live in Philadelphia, next we're going to talk to Marley. Let's jump right into my conversation with her. All right, why don't you introduce yourself to everyone?
- [67:26]
Marlee Rosen
Hi, my name is Marlee Rosen. I am a style coach and a champion of sustainable size inclusive fashion. I work with everyday people to help them achieve closet contentment using sustainable values. And I also have a podcast where I interview the founders of sustainable size inclusive clothing brands to give them a platform to share their stories and also to help them connect with potentially new customers.
- [67:58]
Amanda
And the work that you're doing is really important in two ways. One is like helping people one on one figure this stuff out for themselves. Because I find that for many people what holds them back from sort of adopting the slow fashion way of life is like they just don't know where to begin, what to buy, what to wear, how to wear it, just how to get started. Because it's a lot of work. So, like, what do you do with new clients to help them out?
- [68:32]
Marlee Rosen
So I say the biggest thing that I do with new clients is I spend a lot of time getting to know them on a very personal level who, like, who they are just as a human, but also, like, what does their life look like? How are they spending their time? Are they working in a traditional office environment? Are they working from home? Do they have kids? Like, what are the different factors that are making up their life? And then also, what are they drawn to when it comes to clothes? What sort of, like, what styles of clothing catch their eye, what kinds of colors they enjoy wearing? So it really starts with that, like, spending a lot of time getting really personal with them, getting to really know who they are. Before we even get into, okay, here are some clothing options for you.
- [69:29]
Amanda
I mean, I think that's so great, because what we wear is really a reflection of how we live.
- [69:34]
Marlee Rosen
Yes.
- [69:35]
Amanda
You know, and there's no, like, cookie cutter, One size fits all. Well, we know one size fits all is a joke anyway, but, like, one size fits all approach to what you should wear, either what. What is right for you to wear. Did you ever. When it was on, would you. Did you ever watch what not to Wear?
- [69:51]
Marlee Rosen
Yes. I mean, I was a big fan of it. And now looking back, I can see a lot of, you know, the problematic elements and aspects of it. You know, not gonna deny that they were there, but I. Something I think that I did appreciate about the show and still do, is that it really is this sort of like, one on one approach where they're really spending time with this one person. And yes, they're, like, imposing certain, like, style rules on them, but they also did really try to take into account what their lives were like. At least that's how I felt like thinking back on it now, like, they'd be like, I just remember there was this one woman who I think was, like, in graphic design or a more creative field. So they were like, yes, like, we can dye your hair a crazy color. Like, they were sort of willing to do things like that with people.
- [70:40]
Amanda
Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes they just did a better job of it than other times. Right. And I know that they look back and. Or at least I know Stacy looks back and says, you know, we could have done some things differently. That's an understatement. But I. You know, like, definitely my complaint would be like, wow, they really stuck to a lot of these rules that feel really archaic. And a lot of people ended up Looking the same as the previous people. But on the other hand, there are episodes that stick in my mind where people, they have this new level of confidence that they had not had before. And those are my favorite episodes of that show where you felt like someone finally, I don't know, you know, obviously their guests were predominantly women. And these were women who had so many responsibilities to so many people really had like, devoted themselves to caring for the people in their lives. And like, no one ever sat down and said, like, hey, you deserve to go get your hair done. You deserve to wear nice clothes and feel good. And it was like, I, you know, I don't know, like there's those episodes where at the end they were like, I can't believe I just got pampered and new clothes and all this attention that I don't normally get and those would low key make me cry.
- [71:53]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah, that's so true. They were like, I'd forgotten this, but yeah, they were always like picking people who really were like, in helping professions or were busy parents, like people who were not taking any time for themselves. Yeah, I think that is another aspect of the show that was good, was like, here, actually have a little time that is just about you. And, and like, it's okay to value that and it's okay to spend your time on a thing that isn't about somebody else.
- [72:22]
Amanda
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that alone is, is so important because, I mean, I still, you know, we're fresh out of the holidays and I felt like Reddit was full of posts for weeks about women who had taken on the entire responsibility of the holidays for their families, you know, and how exhausted they were in love they felt, or I. And I just was. I mean, I get it. I feel it too. You know, I will say I do. There is one episode of that show that still, I'm still pissed off about, to be honest, where there was this woman who had a very large collection of like whimsical socks. She kind of like, that was the souvenir she would always buy.
- [73:05]
Marlee Rosen
I remember this episode. Yes.
- [73:07]
Amanda
Okay. Like bins of that, right? And we can say like, okay, maybe that's too many socks, fine, whatever. But like these were all sort of like when she traveled somewhere or did something new, she would buy socks. Like that was her thing. And they made her throw out all those socks. And she was like visibly upset about this. And that one I'm still holding a grudge about. Just let her have her socks.
- [73:34]
Marlee Rosen
And there was, I don't know if it was like A episode before that or a subsequent episode where Stacey actually revealed that when she wore tall boots, she would wear fun socks underneath them.
- [73:45]
Amanda
Dun, dun, dun.
- [73:47]
Marlee Rosen
I was like, wait, what? Like, there? And. And, I mean, yes, I feel like, in that sense, like, there is a time and a place for everything. First of all, if you love to wear fun socks, you love to wear fun socks, but if they don't fit in with your aesthetic, like, they don't. That doesn't necessarily fit my style aesthetic, but people have, you know, gifted them to me over the years, so I can, like, still wear them under a boot or still wear them when I'm just, like, hanging out at home. Like, there's ways that you can still incorporate those kinds of things into your life that, you know, can either, you know, truly be part of your personal style, or if you're like, this really doesn't feel like me, but it feels sentimental to me. Like, you can incorporate it in other ways too.
- [74:28]
Amanda
Right. And it's actually, like, more authentic. Like, really what they should have done is say, like, okay, well, this woman is a big lover of fun socks, so perhaps the way she dresses, fun socks are an integral part of that, you know, but instead it was like, they're going. I mean, honestly, that episode, like, really moved me because I was just. And I'm not really much of a fun sock person, but I was like. I could feel her pain coming through the television, and I was just wondering, like, you know, them taking away the fun socks was sort of like an adherence to certain rules around what people should wear in certain situations and at certain ages with certain lifestyles. And I was wondering if you encounter a lot of clients who have sort of. Whether they wanted to or not, those. Those rules have seeped into their brains and are sort of controlling their decisions or holding them back.
- [75:23]
Marlee Rosen
Absolutely. I mean, I. I would say there are very few clients who don't fall or haven't fallen prey to some sort of fashion rule. I think that, you know, for many of us who grew up in, like, 80s 90s, 2000s, that was so much of what clothes. Like, that's really what personal style was. It was like, here's how to dress this way.
- [75:50]
Amanda
It's true.
- [75:52]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah.
- [75:52]
Amanda
Yeah. And there were so many. Like, this is gonna make me sound like I'm a hundred years old, but there were a lot of, like, websites and blogs that were strictly to make fun of people's clothes. Like, there was one, like, it was like, fug. What was it called? Man, I got it. It's deep in there. It was like, fug or not or something. I don't know. There were all of these, and, like, they were high traffic blogs that basically existed to make fun of people's clothing.
- [76:20]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah.
- [76:20]
Amanda
And so what it did is instill you with terror about wearing the wrong thing.
- [76:26]
Marlee Rosen
Absolutely. Yeah. So what I really try and do with my clients is I feel like I have to walk this, you know, fine line between, on one hand, like, I am not going to subscribe to any of these rules, and they're not going to impact on a grand scale what I recommend. Like, pieces that I recommend for a client's closet. And I am very weary of pushing someone out of their comfort zone too fast because I think, especially when. Especially for people who are. Many of my clients are people who, like, have very recently, like, had some sort of breakup with diet culture. So their body is changing. They have very recently discovered sustainable or slow fashion. So they're going to be spending more money per item of clothing than they're used to. And so I'm trying to, like, tread this, you know, this fine line of. I want to show you that there's something out there that's better for you, and I want you to feel comfortable in the clothes that you're wearing. And so if you can't get out of your head that horizontal stripes are not for you, I'm never going to force you to wear those things. Things. But if you're telling me, hey, I'm ready to try something else, I'm ready to try a crop top. I'm ready to wear clothing that is, like, intentionally, like, doubling down on being oversized. Right. Then I'm gonna help you do that. So it's really about feeling out, like, where is my client at? Or do they need the push yet? Maybe some. Sometimes I'll be like, hey, I'll just sort of bring it up. Like, hey, like, here's something you could think about, but I'm not gonna push you to do it just yet. And just sort of being there, trying to figure out where they're at and really meeting them where they're at.
- [78:21]
Amanda
That's great. I mean, I do think that's really important. Like, you can't say, like, well, guess what? You feel uncomfortable wearing stripes. You're wearing them anyway. Like, there's a fine line of, like, dismantling the sort of, I don't know, fear that these rules create, but also, like, people being comfortable. Well, and the other thing is, like, you know, when I ask people, like, what's holding you back from you know, shopping from sustainable brands, adopting slow fashion is a way of life. I mean, number one is always price, which you already touched on. It's challenging for people to, when you're used to clothes being so cheap, you know, to spend more, especially if you're fearful about buying the wrong thing. I mean, that's even harder.
- [79:03]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah.
- [79:03]
Amanda
Two, obviously, is size inclusivity, which you, you know, you're focusing on that. Right. And supporting the brands that, that provide more sizes. But the last thing that I hear often from people is like, well, the aesthetic isn't for me, like, I don't want to wear just like a beige hemp tunic, you know, because. Or, you know, I guess there are a few brands out there that are known for maybe like a more like feminine sort of like flowery style, but they're also tend to not be size inclusive. So the, the general feeling out there is that if you're wearing like sustainable clothing, you must be wearing like earth tone, gauzy hemp tunics, right? Yes, but obviously that's not true. But do people come to the table like, do you find that there is enough, there are enough options out there to satisfy a variety of aesthetics beyond beige flax tunic or whatever?
- [80:00]
Marlee Rosen
Absolutely. I truly have yet to have a client who has asked me to find a thing, and I have not been able to find it from a brand that is ethical, sustainable and makes their size.
- [80:15]
Amanda
That's amazing to hear.
- [80:16]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah, it takes a lot of work. I have often referred to myself as a brand researcher because so much of what I'm doing is researching brands. And regardless of if I'm working with a specific client at that time, if I find a legitimately new brand, if a brand that has been around is introduced to me, I just have a brand catalog and I'm constantly adding brands to it because, again, I'm not just shopping for myself. You never know when you're gonna get that client who's looking for that aesthetic. But yeah, I think that is a big misconception that has sort of have been like, perpetuated by sustainable brands a little bit themselves is that we have a lot of sustainable brands that really are of a. An aesthetic that has come to like, be seen as like, the slow fashion aesthetic. But they are absolutely not the only brands doing slow fashion.
- [81:16]
Amanda
Totally. I, I think about that a lot because, you know, most of what we see, say on social media of these, like, sustainable brands is, you know, what we're going to see are the ones who have the biggest budget.
- [81:28]
Marlee Rosen
Yes.
- [81:29]
Amanda
Right. And because, you know, they're taking out ads. And, you know, honestly, like, unless you're really a really savvy social media user, it's hard to spot the ads. It feels like it's just another post that you're scrolling through. And so what we really see are these larger brands that perhaps have. They may not even be that large, but they have funding. Right. And so they're kind of like, controlling the narrative of what slow fashion is, meaning, like, aesthetically, and even who gets to participate in it. And unfortunately, the ads that I see the most are filled with young, thin, cisgendered women. Right. So that makes it feel even more like, oh, I am not that person, so I can't be a part of this.
- [82:20]
Marlee Rosen
Yes.
- [82:22]
Amanda
So I think the work that you're doing also with your podcast is really, really important in terms of helping bring these brands to people who otherwise would not find them because they don't have the kind of money to be, like, sort of entering the Ethereum in the way these other brands have. What made you decide to start a podcast?
- [82:45]
Marlee Rosen
Well, I sort of was at this crossroads where I had been doing style coaching work for, I think it was about, like, three years at that point, and. Or maybe even a little bit longer. And I was just watching brand after brand after brand that either I had personally shopped from or, you know, even if I just enjoyed following them on social media brands I'd recommended to clients. And I just kept seeing these brands close down. And while I think that the. Or I know that the one on one work that I'm doing is important and is impactful, I just knew that there was no way for me to be doing that work on a large enough scale to have a really big impact on brands being able to survive.
- [83:35]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [83:37]
Marlee Rosen
And I considered, like, a few different avenues. Like, I thought about, like, is there a way I could do, like, a group style coaching thing? But that didn't really interest me. And then I was on a podcast where I talked about personal style. I realized I enjoyed doing the podcast. I actually took a course that was specifically for, like, me to go on podcasts and pitch my style coaching. But. And as I was doing the course, I was like, I should start my own podcast, because that's gonna be like, yes, I can go on other people's podcasts. And that is great. I'm loving having this conversation with you.
- [84:22]
Itoha Essen Mota
But.
- [84:22]
Marlee Rosen
But the way that I can introduce people to brands is if I create the platform to do that. So that's what sort of led me to start the podcast.
- [84:34]
Amanda
I mean, I think that's great because obviously these brands, they don't survive and thrive because they're not making good product. Right. Or that people aren't interested in what they have. It's that people don't know that they exist.
- [84:49]
Marlee Rosen
Absolutely.
- [84:50]
Amanda
And getting like, I, I think it's for those, for those listening who do not in any way are not in any way involved in small business or retail or anything like that. You seriously, like, even just taking out some ads on Instagram is so expensive with no guaranteed results.
- [85:13]
Marlee Rosen
Especially if you have, like, a business that you're trying to reach such like a broad audience. It's one thing, like, as someone who has, like, done lots of work with small businesses behind the scenes, it's one thing if you have, like a business where you're trying to, like, have a cleaning business in this specific location and so you can take out targeted ads to the people in your location and it's very likely that they are going to see those. But if you're just trying to reach, like all people. Yeah, really, really, really, really hard to compete with, like you mentioned before, brands that have a marketing department.
- [85:53]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so true. All of my clients are, you know, are very, for the most part, very small businesses. Like, maybe the only people working for them are like, the founder, owner, and maybe like one or two other people. Some of them might have a couple employees, but in general, not one of them has a person who handles marketing. And when they do, like, dip their toe into that, like, it is so expensive because it's, it's not even just that you have to pay to take out ads. You have to pay to, like, design ads and pay someone to manage it. And it just, it is out of reach for many, many businesses. And this is something I think about constantly is like, like, how do we connect people with these brands so that we can support the ecosystem of what these brands are doing along with supporting people's journeys into slow fashion.
- [86:51]
Marlee Rosen
Yes.
- [86:52]
Amanda
For people who are listening, do you have any suggestions for how they can support these brands? You know, I mean, beyond even just buying things from them?
- [87:03]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah, of course. If you, Even if it's, you know, a small following on social media, just like your friends or whatever, if there's a brand that you like, share about that brand, share when they have a new release, share when they have a new drop. One of the commitments that I've sort of made to anyone who's ever a guest on my podcast is that I'm Gonna share what they're doing for as long as that brand exists. And they're not paying me to do that. It's because, you know, I believe in what that brand is doing and I want people to hear about it. I think just, you know, encouraging if. If there are people in your life who are open to it, encouraging them to make purchases from those brands when appropriate. So, like, shout out to my mom, who will probably listen to this. She's someone who's, you know, very, very open to shopping more sustainably. And so when we go shopping together, and occasionally I will see a brand that's been on my podcast in some of the stores that are local to me, and I'll say, like, oh, this piece is from this brand that was on my podcast. You should try it on. And she's like, yeah, I will try it on. So if you're in those situations with people like that, you know, encourage them to try those pieces on or learn more about the brand or when they, like, someone's like, hey, like, where did you get this piece of clothing from? Like, tell them where you got it from. Word of mouth is so impactful for these brands. And I don't think we realize seriously has no.
- [88:30]
Amanda
I think that that is so true. I am more. I'm kind of immune to influencers as a whole because I know. Know the game, but I am absolutely influenced by what my friends share and wear and talk about. And it feels authentic to me. Like, if my friend, you know, I was influenced into buying some lotion actually for my face by a recommendation from a friend just who had just like posted about it. And I tried it and I was like, oh, my God, this really is like the best lotion ever. So I think that talking about these, like, bragging about what we're wearing, sharing photos, even if it's in your. Just in your stories of what you're wearing and tagging those brands, this is all, like, super helpful. Yeah, yeah. And if you can't afford to shop from them right now, just talking them up to people because you admire what they're doing, I think is helpful also.
- [89:22]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah, talking them up, engaging with their content. Because the reality is the more engagement, like, yes, it is like, social media is such a game now, but the more likes and the more comments and the more DMs a brand is getting, the more likely it is that their content is actually going to get reshared to even just people that follow them. Like, there's brands that I've followed for years and I just don't see them anymore showing up on social media. So, like, we really have to. With the brands that are really doing the work, we have to keep interacting with them.
- [89:55]
Amanda
It's so true. I mean, I think that that is a really important call out. Like, for better or worse, you can sort of gamify social media. And how you do that is like engaging with the content of the people that you like, because you're also going to be shown it again or more likely, to be shown it again. Basically, the goal of Instagram and any platform is to get you to spend as much time as possible on there. So they want to show you things that have engaged other people and have engaged you. So even just liking something or saying like, this is so cute or whatever is super helpful. And I. There are so many friends of mine who have brands who have even been on this podcast, and I never see their content anymore unless I go to their profile and look at it. And that is just how much the algorithm has changed. It's not like, here are people you like and follow anymore.
- [90:48]
Marlee Rosen
Yes, yes. It used to be that, like, if a brand that I really liked was doing a drop, like, I would see their post and that would be a reliable, like, if it was like, I knew I wanted to buy something from it, they had previewed it, whatever. Just following them on Instagram would be a reliable way for me to know, oh, like, the drop has opened. I can go purchase this thing now. And now that that would never happen. You'd have to, like, set all these alarms and, like, be on, like, 10 mailing lists. Like, it just. It's just the whole social media ecosystem is so different than it was even three years ago.
- [91:21]
Amanda
It really is. And I have found, like, in the past couple months, I've been like, oh, if I really like this brand, I need to sign up for their email list to know what's going on. Yes. Because I'm not gonna find out on Instagram anymore. Even when I'm like, I have some. That I have, like, set notifications for, like, when they post, and I'm still not even getting those notifications. So I think if you, like, really love a brand, even just signing up for their email list can be really helpful. And then don't, like, market as spam because then that messes up their email.
- [91:51]
Marlee Rosen
Yes. And apparently, and I am so guilty of this, apparently, it's actually really helpful if you open the email.
- [91:58]
Amanda
It is. Yes. I know this is so silly, but it is all true. I look at these metrics with Some of my clients, and. And if you mark something as spam or aren't opening emails, and this is the part of the technological aspect of it that I can't really speak of super coherently, except to say that somehow it makes the systems that send the email or receive the email think that it's spam anyway, and then it blocks that email from other people's inboxes. So, yes, don't mark it as spam. Just unsubscribe. If you really dislike someone.
- [92:33]
Justin Travis White
Yes.
- [92:34]
Marlee Rosen
You're actually better off just unsubscribing because then. Because it's all based on percentages. And so even if their email list is a little bit shorter, if a larger percentage of their email list is opening the emails, that almost matters more.
- [92:51]
Amanda
Yeah, there you go. We just gave you so many boring life hacks just now.
- [92:55]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah. Open emails.
- [92:59]
Amanda
Open emails. Sign up for emails. Open emails. Which is so weird because, like, if. If you and I were talking, like, two or three years ago, I'd be like, ooh, email. You know, Instagram. Right. But it is. That is just where we are. We're sort of like going backwards in time. Sort of. I was talking to a client today, and I was like, well, really, the future now is shopping in person.
- [93:17]
Itoha Essen Mota
Yes.
- [93:18]
Amanda
Right. We're like, it's weird. I know. So, you know, one last question I just want to ask you, Marley, is like, if someone was ready, they're ready to, like, like, dip their toe into slow fashion. They're like, I'm sick of what fast fashion is. I'm sick of wearing crappy clothes that don't last. I don't know where to get started. What is, like, one piece of advice where you would be like, this is the easiest thing you can do to be a part of this. What would you tell them?
- [93:46]
Marlee Rosen
Easiest thing you can do? I feel like you want to start off just by documenting in some way. You can do it in sort of one of two ways. You can either start by documenting your own outfits, even if it's just for yourself. Like, you don't have to start an Instagram account and do it. I would do it for at least two weeks and just start to make note of, like, what is it about your outfits that you do like? Because so often, like, people who are, you know, haven't figured out personal style and are really struggling with it are like, this is all terrible. But when they actually look at it, they're like, well, I actually did like the color of this top. I actually did like the style of These pants, But it's like, other things about them that aren't working for them. Right. So just document and really start to make note of, like, what is. What it is that's working and what it is that isn't working. Like, it's okay. I think we're, like, a little scared of negativity. It's okay to be like, these are the things that didn't work for me, and make a list of it. Like, I know have a list of things that. That I know that I don't like to wear. And that's fine. Like, it's okay to know what you don't like. And then at the same time, you can just start to be paying attention to what you sort of are seeing, whether it's out in the world or on social media or even on Pinterest, wherever it may be. What are things that you are drawn to? And again, document those. Keep track of those, and start to see if you see any patterns in the things that you're attracted to. Maybe it's, again, like, a certain cut of pants or a top, maybe it's a certain color, and just sort of start to get familiar with what it is that you think you might like and what it is that you think you might not like.
- [95:31]
Amanda
I mean, I agree with that. It sounds so simple to just be like, know what you like and don't like. But the reality is that most of the time, we kind of don't know that or haven't given ourselves permission to know that because we're too busy thinking about all these rules around what we're supposed to wear, what we're supposed to like, or what's in style or not in style. You know, one example is, like, people who are like, I don't want to give up skinny jeans because they make me feel comfortable and good, but people said I should because they're out of date, and I'm like, cheugy and uncool for wearing them. And I'm like, just wear. If you like skinny jeans, wear them.
- [96:08]
Marlee Rosen
Yes, right.
- [96:09]
Amanda
Like, wear them forever. That's fine.
- [96:11]
Marlee Rosen
A hundred percent.
- [96:12]
Amanda
Yeah. And I. I mean, I'm sure you have found yourself in the past doing this, too, but I have definitely bought clothes in the past that I felt like I should like and I didn't like, and I never wore them. And then they just ended up, you know, like, at the buffalo exchange.
- [96:27]
Marlee Rosen
Yes, 100%, yes. There's definitely been those pieces that I was like, well, I'm supposed, like, whether it was because it was in or cool or just that I felt like someone who dressed like me was supposed to like that thing.
- [96:41]
Amanda
Yeah, that's a good call, too. Absolutely. And I have over the past couple years, honestly, for me, like, no longer having to, like, work in fashion was really helpful for me, being, like, now I just wear whatever I want every day.
- [96:53]
Marlee Rosen
Yeah.
- [96:53]
Amanda
And I started to see things that were sitting in my closet that I never wear anymore. Like, I felt like when I worked in the fashion industry, like, as a buyer, I wore a lot of black all the time. Because there is, like, if you ever go to any, like. Like, fashion industry event, people are wearing all black. It is, like, you can't even. It's unavoidable. Right. And I thought, you know, subconsciously, like, that's just what I was adopting to fit in, I think. And when I started not working in the fashion industry and just wearing whatever I wanted all the time, I realized I almost never wore black. And in fact, I wore a multitude of color and prints all the time. And I was like, wow, okay. So all my solid black clothing was just sitting in my closet, like, waiting for some. I don't know, some me to go to a lot of funerals all at once, I guess.
- [97:44]
Marlee Rosen
Well, and this is where this, like, phrase that I say all the time, it sort of rings true that life changes lead to style changes, because, yes, on one hand, like, maybe you were wearing all black because everyone else was wearing all black, but also, like, maybe it was what felt situationally appropriate for these specific events that you were going to. And now that you're no longer engaging in those events in the same way, you live a different life, and so your style is gonna shift a little bit, and that's normal, and that's okay. And it's not about. I feel really strongly that it's not about, like, our personal style never changing. It's just about, like, knowing what to do when it does change instead of, like, panicking and getting rid of all of our clothes and, you know, donating all of them, which we all know what happens when we donate all of our clothes? Like, there's a different way you can move through that.
- [98:38]
Amanda
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that, like, just knowing it, what we. Who we are and where we are and what we like right now, what makes us feel good right now, it saves us a lot of money, and it saves us a lot of waste.
- [98:51]
Marlee Rosen
Yes.
- [98:53]
Amanda
Well, thank you so much. This was so fun to talk about. Now I feel like you have to come back for a full episode so we can talk more about style stuff.
- [99:00]
Marlee Rosen
I absolutely would love to.
- [99:01]
Amanda
Okay. Yeah, we should definitely talk about that because I get, you know, I like to do an episode periodically about personal style and I feel like you have the answers to a lot of questions that people have.
- [99:16]
Justin Travis White
If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Close Horse is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses. Please go give them your support. Blank Cass or Blanket Coats by CAS is focused on restoring, renewing and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram @blankcas and a website will be launched soon at Blank Casualties located in Whistler, Canada. Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a.
- [100:16]
Amanda
Vegan cafe and lots of rad products.
- [100:19]
Justin Travis White
From other small sustainable businesses.
- [100:22]
Amanda
Our mission is to create a brand.
- [100:24]
Justin Travis White
And community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram shopvelvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com. st. Evens is a New York City based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you'll reach for again and again. More than just a store, St. Evens is dedicated to sharing the stories and history behind the garment. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. New Vintage is released every Thursday@wearsaintevens.com with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram. Wearst Evens that's Ware St. Evens Country Feedback is a mom and pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in used rock, country and soul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares.
- [101:29]
Amanda
Do you have used records you want to sell?
- [101:32]
Justin Travis White
Country Feedback wants to buy them? Find us on Instagram Country Feedback Vintage and vinyl or head down east and visit our brick and mortar. All are welcome at this inclusive and family friendly record shop in the country. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color obsessed. Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen get ready for rainbows with a side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced, hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow Fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicauunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. picnic Wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion Designer for over 10 years, but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic Wear offers minimal waste and maximum authenticity. Future Vintage over future garbage Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points.
- [103:24]
Amanda
If it's ethical and legal, we try.
- [103:26]
Justin Travis White
To find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram. Utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space. With the pewter thimble we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make.
- [103:54]
Amanda
Them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels.
- [103:57]
Justin Travis White
And hand picked treasures available to you from the comfort of your own home. Responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is.
- [104:15]
Amanda
A startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that.
- [104:19]
Justin Travis White
Are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come.
- [104:26]
Amanda
Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically?
- [104:38]
Justin Travis White
Is this fabric made of plastic?
- [104:41]
Amanda
Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? Sign up@decodenim.com to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and.
- [104:53]
Justin Travis White
Send out no more than three emails.
- [104:55]
Amanda
A month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com thank you to Marley for spending some time with with me. Please do yourself a favor and check out her podcast, Style Me Slowly. And if you, yes, you are a small business owner making size inclusive slow fashion, reach out to her because you might be a good fit for an episode of Style Me Slowly. And of course, I will have her information in the show notes. So Itoha and Marley will be back next week for the big roundtable discussion along with Maggie, Nico and Donell, and it's going to be great. I wanted to round this whole episode out by talking about how we can support the small businesses in our community, especially those that are size inclusive. I'm recording this just a few days after Target, among many other companies, rolled back their DEI initiatives. And I got to tell you, I'm not super surprised about Target. I suspect that many of us have found ourselves shopping there less and less over the years because we're consciously trying to buy less stuff that we don't need. And to be honest, Target has not done a good job of keeping its stores stocked for years now. I've definitely found myself pulling away from Target over the last five years. I mean, you know, the clothes they sell in there are fast fashion and they definitely, you know, their business model is built on over consumption. But I do remember a time when it was such a joy to go to Target and just walk around and see the things. It just, it's changed, right? And I think many of you can agree with that. We've been talking about it on Instagram all day today. I'm not the only one. You're not the only one who's thinking that. Still, despite the experience of going to Target changing for years, I considered Target a better alternative to Walmart and Amazon. I did appreciate its work consciously bringing bipoc owned brands into its source. That was a big deal to me because lots of other brands made promises to do something like this in 2020 and then they never really delivered. But Target did. And it gave so many people opportunities to build their own businesses and bring that money back to their communities. So when I was sort of like, okay, well, I don't want to shop from Amazon, I don't want to shop from Walmart, but I need this thing and it looks like I'm going to have to go to Target, I felt okay about it, you know, because I was like, this is a better option and perhaps it still is. I'm not making a judgment call on that at all here. That's your choice, right? And I will say that despite thinking like, okay, Target is a better option here, over the years, there were a few Things that made me think, okay, Target, you're not the worst, but I'm watching you because sometimes I don't know about you. Like, for example, they had a line of $5 so called sustainable tees that launched in around 2022ish. Like, I think early 2022. And just to be clear, it's not sustainable if the people making that T shirt aren't getting paid a living wage. And there's no way a five dollar tee is doing that, right? So I was like, okay, so Target doing some cash green washing here. Okay. In 2023, they did something that really, it really upset me. And that was that they pulled their Pride collection from stores after a backlash from bigots. There was a lot of, I mean, just bad stuff. I was following it on the Target subreddit and people were coming in and making threats and calling in bomb threats and harassing employees. And I get why the company did it, but I'll tell you, watching the conversations in the Target employees subreddit really illustrated how hurtful this was for the company's queer employees. That they would have rather the product stayed, that Target stood its ground and it didn't. And to make matters worse, last year the Pride collection was only offered in select stores. That was their language. Now you can say, fuck rainbow capitalism. It's bullshit. It's woke washing, et cetera, et cetera. But I will say seeing Pride merch in a massive retail chain that served the entire country 10 to 15 years ago, that was a major win for everyone fighting for LGBTQ rights. It does seem sad that the company walked away from it. Even if I don't believe you need to buy a new rainbow outfit every year, I don't think that you should, but there was just something about it being there. And. And I was telling Dustin earlier while we were eating some lasagna, that that moment in 2023 when they pulled their Pride collection was. Well, it was a specific time that it still lives so prominently in my mind because that was the last month that I worked as the head of product for a chain of gift shops, mall gift shops. And we would always say, like, my team and I, like, we're the gayest store at the mall and we're gonna stay that way, right? Like, we. This is who we are. And, you know, a lot of our retail sales associates were queer. And this was just like, this is a community, not just a business. And at that time, when Target pulled their collection, I was getting a lot of messages from store employees asking if we were Gonna do the same thing. And I said, no, we will never do that. We will continue to be the gayest store at the mall. And that's who we are. And we're sticking to it. And it's important what we do. That representation being this safe space for people, it's really, really important to me. And at this point, I was already low key. This job was destroying me because I was getting screamed at and degraded constantly by the men leading our parent company. And they started to, that month, my last month at this job, when I, you know, like spoiler, I ultimately quit, they started to pressure me to pull anything gay or trans out of our stores. And their argument was not, oh, we don't want to backlash or we want to protect our sales staff. It was, if we get that stuff out of the store, we can appeal to more people and our sales will grow. Basically. Like, if we can get stuff out of the store that transphobic and homophobic people don't like, then they will come in here and spend money. And yeah, I get it. That's what like capitalism is, right? But I couldn't very well go back to my team and say, guess what? Psych. We're no longer the gayest store at the mall. We're just the store at the mall because we got to make money. Because for one, that's not what my values are, two, that's not what my team's values are. And three, what we were doing was intentionally trying to create a safe space in malls because they don't really exist. And if we gave in on that just to make some money, we're not a safe space anymore. And the pressure to do that, combined with being screamed at all the time, that was enough for me to quit. I just, I wasn't going to stick around so I could, you know, get screamed at more. But I also wasn't going to stick around so that I could un gay ify our store. And you know, I'll also say, like, I'm really lucky in that I made that could make that decision to walk away because I was able to. I mean, there were some scary moments financially for a while, but I was able to like shift back into being a consultant and turning that into a full time job. People who work at Target, they don't get to do that, but they still get to feel every day like their place of employment, which should feel like a safe space. Doesn't really care, right? So that, that whole thing in 2023 really did not sit well for me and still does not and that was when I was kind of like, I'm done with Target. But it had been calming my being done with Target because I'd started reading the Target subreddit pretty regularly probably about a year or two before that. You know me, I'm on all the subreddits, especially for ones that are retail employees. And just seeing how terrible it is to work there currently for its store employees. You know, it's the classic understaffed, overworked and underpaid. Seeing that, seeing the chaos of that company, that was kind of the last straw for me really. And so, yeah, I found myself staying away from Target. And last week Target announced the end of DEI programs that helped black employees build meaningful careers, it helped improve the experience of black shoppers, and it promoted black owned businesses. They got rid of all of those programs. And you know, this has been happening with a lot of companies in the past few weeks. And it is definitely a reflection of what's happening here in the United States, I gotta tell you. Am I surprised by this? Not really. Not after everything else I just told you. Right. But I think the most important thing to come out of Target's DEI decision is that the mask is off for Target because it's not a philanthropic organization, it's not a social justice group, it's not mutual aid. It's certainly not your friend. And I guess it's not a safe space either. It's a publicly traded corporation with profits as the goal. Many of us knew that for a very long time. But for others, it's a really big surprise because Target did a great job at marketing itself as something else. It is no coincidence to me that for many years Target used the same ad agency as Nike. It's called Wieden and Kennedy and it's based in Portland, Oregon. I've had a lot of friends over the years who've worked there. Target doesn't work with Wieden and Kennedy anymore. They brought their, all of their marketing and advertising in house, I'm sure to save money. But they worked with Wieden and Kennedy in sort of their heyday. And, and you know, just like Nike, Target is a brand that has built itself as, you know, being different and being better and being, you know, woke, if you will. Right. Like there's woke washing going on with both Nike and Target. But Target took it even like a, a step further because they had all of these professional influencers and aspiring influencers and just mega fans all over the Internet spreading the gospel of Target all the time. So many accounts that were literally like, here's what I saw at Target today. And it made everyone who was going there on a Target haul feel like they too could be an influencer. And what's interesting is that I don't think Target was paying everyone who was posting on their behalf, but they certainly were paying a lot to those who were. And you know something I was thinking about, like this week, that I came from something I'd read a couple weeks ago, I was thinking about Stanley Cups, not the hockey prize, which, I don't know, I guess it's not a prize, it's a trophy. This is not a sports podcast. You probably didn't even think of hockey. You definitely thought of the reusable drink cups. And Stanley collecting has just been. It was like the Beanie Babies of last year. Except Squishmallows were also the Beanie Babies of last year. I don't know, we had a lot of Beanie Baby esque stuff going on last year, and Stanley Cups were one of them now. Stanley Cups. I know a lot about this from the Target subreddit where all the employees posted about how Target was doing all these drops of exclusive Stanley Cups. People would come in and fight and wrestle and be on bad behavior to get them. And it was honestly, that was my introduction to how insane this, like, Stanley fever has gotten, because I don't follow a lot of, like, regular influencers. And I kept thinking about that, like, why are people so wild about collecting these reusable cups? Like, who cares? They're not even that cute. And recently I read that Stanley pays the highest commission to influencers on sales. So influencers were posting a lot about Stanley because they made a lot more money off of their affiliate links for that. And you start to wonder, are Stanley Cups even that great or do we just see them a lot on the Internet because they pay out more? And therefore we think it's a bigger trend than it really is and we buy into it. It's not dissimilar to Target, who has, you know, been taking up a lot of space on social media for a really long time. And as we've been discussing on Instagram in the comments section today, many people have a very intense parasocial relationship with Target. And I'll tell you, I should have seen this coming. But I definitely didn't have on my 2025 bingo card being harassed by Target mega fans. But let me tell you, I have been being harassed by Target mega fans all day today. I haven't really said anything bad about Target. I Just was like, here's what's going on. Here's the history of it. But people are ready to come and fight me. Go scorched earth defending Target. It's. It's shocking, right? But then again, it's not because there is a very intense parasocial relationship going on with Target that other brands would die to have. And it makes sense when you think about how Target and over consumption of stuff from Target was memeified for years. I mean, there were SNL skits, okay? There was the whole treat yourself era of walking in for one thing and leaving with $150 worth of stuff. Like Target was where you went to buy a lot of stuff to cheer yourself up. Target was supposed to be different than every other mega corporation out there. And it's just not. You know, it's no different than Amazon or Nike or your credit card company. And things like this just remind me of why we need to support small businesses when we can. And yes, before we proceed, let's hit the disclaimers here. I am quite aware that not all small businesses are run by great humans. And I know that not all small businesses are doing a good job of taking care of their employees. And yes, we should not support shitty small businesses either. And we should believe employees when they tell us that these businesses are bad. That said, for every bad business, there is at least one good one, if not ten or a hundred good ones. And the businesses that are out there trying to change what business means and maximize their positive impact on their communities, for those businesses, we should do what we can to support them. And yeah, that can be as simple as shopping with them. But it can also mean other things that literally cost no money. It's almost like, how can we do what all kinds of people on the Internet did for Target or Nike? But for small businesses, right? That means we can recommend our favorite small businesses to friends. We can, like, save and share Instagram posts from our favorite makers and sellers and small brands. We can comment on their posts and tag friends because that engagement really does help. Let's treat every small business that we love like it's a Stanley cup, okay? When friends or family ask you for a gift list, include items or gift certificates from small businesses like the ones you love and write positive reviews for businesses you've already shopped. Let's use that word of mouth, right? Let's support these brands. This is what works for Target. This is what made people in the long term want to come and fight with me on the Internet about Target today. Okay. Also, if Target, if you're listening to this, I don't know why you put Starbucks in all the stores. Because I miss the snack bar with the Pizza Hut. Because sometimes, you know, Dustin really liked that pizza. And secondly, sometimes you just want a fountain soda while you're shopping and not like some epic $9 Starbucks drink. Just saying. Anyway, it's really that easy to support small businesses and it's another way that we're actually engaging in some pretty radical behavior by ignoring the big box stores or the hyper convenience of free next day shipping. All of these things add up and we're just going to keep doing the best that we can, right? All of these things that we're doing, they work. While most of us are probably not feeling amazing right now, I have to say that this community continues to amaze me with its strength, with its passion, with its bravery. And I want you to take some time today to bask in pride or joy or both about something you did this week or this month. Because I know you did something great. Thanks for listening to another episode of Close Horse. Written, researched, edited, hosted, all the things by me, Amanda Lee McCarty, person who fights with people about Target on the Internet, among other things. If you liked what you're hearing, please leave a rating, maybe even a review, maybe subscribe, maybe tell your friends all those things. If you'd like to support my work financially, you'll find all that information in the show notes at my website and in the bio of everywhere I exist on social media, where I go by osehorsepodcast. And yes, I am on Blue Sky. Thanks as always to my other half, Mr. Justin Travis White, for our music and our audio support and spending at least 20 minutes talking to me about Target while we ate lasagna tonight. All right, I'll see you all next week. Bye.