← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
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- [00:19]
Amanda
Welcome to Clothes Horse, the podcast that.
- [00:21]
Brenda
Is literally recording with Brenda on my lap.
- [00:24]
Amanda
Wait, can you guys hear her? Let me see if you can capture some purr here.
- [00:32]
Brenda
Did you hear that?
- [00:34]
Amanda
Well, even if you didn't, it's really glorious.
- [00:36]
Brenda
I'm sure she'll leave while I'm talking.
- [00:37]
Amanda
But I'm enjoying it as much as I can. Until then, I feel like I sound a lot more relaxed. Right. Anyway, I'm your host, Amanda, and This is episode 225. And after weeks of introducing you to a bunch of really rad people who are out there spreading the gospel of inclusive slow fashion, this week you're going to get to hear a conversation I.
- [01:00]
Brenda
Led with them back in December.
- [01:03]
Amanda
That's right. We've got Maggie, we've got Itoha, we've got Marley, Danelle, and Nico. And they're going to share their thoughts on a wide range of topics related to slow fashion and inclusivity, including why so many new fast fashion brands have adopted the Shein model specifically to target plus size American women and why that's.
- [01:27]
Brenda
Not actually a good thing.
- [01:30]
Amanda
They're going to talk about why a lot of slow fashion marketing can feel a lot like regular old fast fashion marketing. They're going to discuss what we can learn from big brands that have totally blown their foray into extended sizing. They all make the same mistakes, it turns out. We're going to get into how understanding our own personal style can help us slow down our shopping. And of course they're going to talk about. I'm going to talk about how we can support slow fashion brands that are.
- [02:03]
Brenda
Truly trying to be as inclusive as possible.
- [02:07]
Amanda
And this is a long conversation, so I'm not going to do my usual intro segment this week.
- [02:13]
Brenda
We're just going to jump right in.
- [02:21]
Danelle
Hi everyone. My name is Danelle Jagamin and I am the creator and organizer of the Plus Swap, which is a plus size clothing swap in the Philadelphia area. And I am a co founder of Philly Fatcon.
- [02:34]
Etoha
Hello, my name is Etoha Asamoto. I use she, hair, pronouns. I'm an apparel product development specialist and owner of a fashion service agency called H and I Collective based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
- [02:45]
Maggie
Hi everyone. I'm Maggie Green. I use she her pronouns. I am the owner, CEO and weirdo in residence at Self Magnitude, which I describe as an ethical micro business on a mission to transform how you see yourself more practically. I provide personal brand and style strategy services to weirdos and queerdos of all bodies, genders, ages, and I'm Based in Seattle, Washington.
- [03:15]
Marlee
Hi, my name is Marlee Rosen. My pronouns are she, her. I am known on Instagram as Style Me Slowly. I am a style coach who helps my clients use slow fashion to achieve closet contentment. And I'm also the host of the Style Me Slowly podcast where I champion sustainable size inclusive brands.
- [03:33]
Nico
I'm Nico Herzetti. My pronouns are they, them. I am in Northern California and I'm the founder of Forea, which is an online platform to help plus size and gender expansive people build more sustainable and ethical wardrobes that they love.
- [03:51]
Amanda
We have a lot of Pennsylvanians in the room tonight. It's like the most critical mass ever. I'm really excited to talk to you all about slow fashion and its sort of shortcomings in terms of inclusivity. And I'll say, I feel like we have made a lot of strides forward in the, like, four and a half years that I've been working on clotheshorse. I felt when I started making clothes horse, I was like, oh, wow. So, like, thinking about sustainability is for thin, white, young, rich ladies. Okay, cool. Like, what about everyone else? Oh, and not even just thin, white, rich, young white ladies, but also with a very specific esthetic. Right. So, like, you couldn't be goth and also into slow fashion. Right. And, and I, I, at the time I was like, wow, like, I really wear a lot of pastels. Am I going to be, like, rejected from this immediately? Am I going to be laughed. Laughed off the Internet? And I do feel that we, we have seen these conversations have more nuance and more people feeling that they can see themselves as a part of this community. But the reality is that slow fashion has to become a way of life for everyone, regardless of any of the other adjectives about them. And I know that we can, like, make this change, but I still think we have a long way to go in terms of more people being able to see themselves as part of the slow fashion community, as being welcome to join it. And there's just, there are just shortcomings in terms of inclusivity. When I think about especially the sort of the larger organization that have been sort of controlling the narrative around sustainable fashion for a really long time. You know, that's where I see it's very youth focused, it's very thin focused, it's very white focused. And to be honest, there are, there is definitely like a socioeconomic category there as well. I feel that even when I'm like, I don't know. I was telling someone recently when I went to Albany to rally for the fashion act, I was like, wow, am old, poor, unattractive, and not thin enough to be a part of this. Like, it felt very othering to me. And I was like, why? Why is this the group that's here? Like, why aren't there different kinds of people? And I do think it's because we've been, I don't know, like, I mean, and I know you all have feelings about it, which is what we're here to talk about tonight. But, you know, when I think of the term fashion, I think of, you know, wealthy, thin, young, rich, that kind of group. Somehow that's just translated over to slow fashion, sustainable fashion, even though all of us are impacted by the repercussions of overconsumption and fast fashion. So I guess where I would like to get started here, why do you think personally that a lot of the sort of like, headline messaging about slow fashion, a lot of the, like, photography we see, even the organizations who are steering this narrative, why do we still see this problem where there's just like, not a diverse range of people being shown? Does anyone want to start there? I know some of you have very strong feelings here.
- [07:15]
Danelle
This is Danelle. You know, I've had so many thoughts through your introduction, right. About what brought each of us here and how I started envisioning my own self and my own body in slow fashion. And I've had a long journey here that started with an undergraduate degree in environmental studies. But what the last thing you said really conjured an image in my mind is that not only do we not see diverse body imagery in slow fashion, but we don't even see it in the grocery store that everyone has to eat food every day. Right? So it's. It's really that I just can't get over the fact that we're just underrepresented across the board. And it kind of seems like fashion is further up on the hierarchy of needs than. Than some of the other places where we should be seeing fat bodies and diverse bodies and short ones and tall ones and round and flat and whatever. So that's where. Where I went immediately is like, I don't know if I can answer that because there's so many places where we should see body diversity that we don't. And fashion is just one of them.
- [08:31]
Amanda
Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, my belief is always like, we need to do better. We need to be everything that fashion isn't. But you raise a really good point because even if we were, I don't know, looking at like, the Photos on the wall at cvs, which I have done many times. You know, those, like, stock photos. While you're to get your vaccination or whatever it is, I will say, at least there's more diversity in terms of age. They will show elderly people. And I'm like, okay, that's a leap forward. But, like, that's about it, right? Like, we still don't get to see, like, what, like, the full range of humanity is. You know, stock photos are really hilarious to me anyway, because they are always this, like, really idealized, sanitized version of what it is to be human. But, you know, I think across the board, you're right. Like, we just don't. Most people are invisible.
- [09:28]
Marlee
Also, I think to sort of. To go off of what Danelle was just saying. I think a lot of what we see in slow fashion in an attempt to, like, try and attract people into it is that it sort of reflects fast fashion in a lot of ways in terms of saying, like, hey, like, we're just. We're just as cool or we're just as. As. Like, you're saying, like, rich and white and thin and whatever. And so it's.
- [09:56]
Amanda
It's.
- [09:57]
Marlee
Instead of saying, like, hey, we're for more. We're for larger groups of people, we're for more people. I think sometimes brands want to say we're just fast fashion, but better. We're attracting the same type of people. We are having the same aesthetic, but we're doing it in a better way as opposed to saying, hey, we really want to create an entirely new fashion system, which is honestly what I see a lot of the smaller brands really trying to do.
- [10:23]
Danelle
But I think that's changed recently, at least since I entered the slow fashion space, because when I first started buying slow fashion, there were, like, two brands that made clothes that weren't just, like, just a boxy linen top and loose linen pants. And I think it's really in the past five years where we have seen them try to cater more in their advertising to that, like, idealistic shopper and consumer. Right. The other thing that comes to mind to me is, like, when you imagine. And maybe they're trying to subconsciously build this into our minds. Spending 150 on a shirt, you have to, like, have someone or somewhere to go. You have to be someone to wear 150 shirt. That's, like, ingrained in our minds. Like, I can't cook dinner and 150 linen shirt. That's crazy. And so if you're the person who's staying at home for your family or has, you know, like a more manual labor job or anything. Right. Where you might be getting dirty. You don't think that you are the person that can wear those clothes. So. And that's not the image they're creating either.
- [11:34]
Amanda
You know, I had this sort of light bulb moment a couple days ago where I was looking at a pretty well known brand in the like slow fashion space, like with like upcycling. And I was looking at their sizing, like on their website, and I was like, wow, like they're calling this a large, but this is like a medium minus an M minus, I would say. Right. And I, I said, you know, like to myself, okay, well, like, look at who's modeling the clothes. It's like the founder of this brand or her friends, and they're all really incredibly thin. And I was like, wow. You know, when I sit down and think about this, like a majority of the slow fashion brands that I think have had the most viral sort of success are like, they're run by thin, white, cisgendered women. And I had this, I don't know, this flash of despair where I was like, is this another example of how that kind of privilege gives you the opportunity to found a slow fashion brand that people will then shop from? Right. Yeah. And how do we, how do we change that? I know that's like a larger, larger systemic issue, but we know that people who are not white, people who aren't connected, people who aren't thin, people who are, I mean, not even young, are often cut out of these kinds of opportunities.
- [13:06]
H
This is.
- [13:06]
Nico
Nico, you know, I, I think people maybe underestimate what it can cost to start a fashion line of your own. If you're making it yourself, that might be something that you can start at a small scale level. And there are incredible, like very, very micro brands is how I think of them that are working at that level. But once you get to the point where you're not like sewing yourself, which is arguably like the slowest of fashion.
- [13:34]
Danelle
Right.
- [13:35]
Nico
Once you get into like production, that costs a lot of money up front for most people to need to have to invest.
- [13:45]
H
And what is kind of maybe the.
- [13:47]
Nico
Heartbreaking thing for me thinking about your question about sustainability and size inclusivity, there is actually what I've seen on Fourier is like a really strong overlap with the companies that care a lot about inclusivity and those companies caring about sustainability.
- [14:05]
H
They are usually well paired.
- [14:07]
Nico
And they're also the companies that probably have the smallest profit margin because sustainability has a higher cost than things that are less sustainable. I mean we're talking 2/3 of our fabrics are polyester and then you add in non organic cotton which is really hard on land. And the vast, I think 80 to 90% of, of apparel is with those two fibers. And it's super not sustainable. But those are the most economical choices. So once you get into other kinds of fibers like the cost of creating a line like that is just that the economy of scale is not on your side as a small business.
- [14:51]
Maggie
This is Maggie, I have a couple of thoughts and I, I think it might be valuable. I'm definitely going to answer your question and I, I'm not sure that all of us here in this conversation are operating from the same like standpoint perspective definition of slow fashion because I'm, I am hearing a lot of input about you know, like new brands creating like designers businesses that are manufacturing clothing absolutely part of the slow fashion space. And in my experience like that, that's not the space that I primarily operate in. I operate mostly in, I mean I don't even use the word fashion frankly because I reject, I reject so much of what it's attached to for all the reasons that we're discussing today. But I operate primarily in the secondhand market like tapping into the resources that are in existence already, including vintage and antiques. Even in some cases, like I think.
- [15:56]
Danelle
Slow fashion implies newly made in a sustainable ethical way. And sustainable fashion is inclusive of all things like secondhand vintage and then those slow fashion brands. At least that's the operational definition that I tend to use.
- [16:15]
Maggie
I mean I would, I would love to hear everyone's perspective and then I'll answer the question of like why is this the case? Because I think it's all, it's all interrelated for sure.
- [16:25]
Marlee
So this is Marlee, I've always used slow fashion as an umbrella term sort of to mean all of it. So whether it be buying new from a sustainable brand, buying secondhand, upcycling, remixing, what's in your own closet. And I understand that not everyone does, but that's always how I've used the term.
- [16:51]
Etoha
Gotcha Isoha here for me because like of my technical background and apparel production, I tend to think of slow fashion in the production sense in relation to clothing being produced in a way that doesn't encourage overproduction and actually lasts for a long time. So I usually think of slow fashion in the way that clothing is being, as a way of new clothing is being produced.
- [17:18]
Danelle
Yeah, I think we have a similar approach to the definitions. Nico, you think?
- [17:24]
Nico
Yeah, I honestly love all of these perspectives. I think the only thing I can maybe add in a layer of, to me, like, the most important component of slow fashion, regardless of, like, maybe the sourcing, is the idea of thoughtfulness, being intentional with the choices, being aware of the impact. And that can be anything from.
- [17:44]
H
I know that if I buy this.
- [17:46]
Nico
Item, it's going to be special to me for a really long time to. I'm only going to buy, you know, items that are made from organic, natural materials. Like, that can be a wide range of things, but it's the thoughtfulness that is really important to me. And actually, Maggie, I love something that you said and wanted to build on that because I was thinking about it during the intro with the. The word fashion. I also tend to avoid using the.
- [18:15]
H
Word fashion, mostly because fashion.
- [18:20]
Nico
And maybe this kind of goes to the key question we're discussing here. Fashion has never felt like something that's accessible to me, either, literally, because I don't and I wasn't able to find clothing that fit my body or because I didn't feel like I had the esthetic sensibilities to be fashionable. But the thing that drives me forward is, regardless of how you feel about fashion from an esthetic perspective, everyone gets dressed in the morning. We all have to put clothes on our back. And ideally, you want to feel comfortable physically and comfortable emotionally and in who you are and how you're expressing yourself. And that, to me, is what's important and exciting here. And fashion can sometimes feel like kind of to where we started this conversation that is for the thin white, like, trendy women of the world.
- [19:13]
H
And that's not me.
- [19:15]
Nico
And so I don't participate in that, But I do have very strong opinions about how I want my waistband to sit. Right.
- [19:22]
Marlee
Nico, what you said is, like, really striking a chord with me because it's why I always use the term personal style, whether it's when I'm, like, talking to my clients or on Instagram, whatever it may be, because I really do feel like that is, you know, the world that. Not just that I'm working in, but also that I'm living in, sort of like you said. I really do see fashion as, like, fashion's like what's happening on a Runway. It's what's happening in a photo shoot. But personal style is the clothes that you're waking up and putting on your body every single morning.
- [19:54]
Danelle
And I think that's in this cover. This part of the conversation is really important to One of Amanda's like key questions here is and philosophy is, is that everyone deserves slow fashion. And I may be part of the hurdle mentally for some people, especially those who can't afford it and continue to not support slow fashion brands. I have a bone to pick with all of you. But maybe the word fashion is like that mental hurdle that people aren't getting over because they feel like clothes are just a utility and not a form of art or personal expression.
- [20:31]
Amanda
I totally agree with that. I have at least for a year now been wishing that we could come up with a better term than fashion because I think it's so othering. Even as a person who has worked in the fashion industry, I always felt like that was not the place where I belonged or would ever fit in. Because I don't know, there's something about fashion. I mean, fashion succeeds by making people feel left out. I always have felt that way. I've had a conversation recently with one of my clients and she brought up this really valid point that a lot of like so called fashion trends begin with the wealthy, right? And then of course, everybody wants to fit in, feel valuable to society, whatever. All this stuff has been programmed into us for so long that we buy into these trends in hopes of sort of being like the people at the top. And then by the time we all are wearing those things, the wealthiest people no longer want that. Right. It ruins the cachet of whatever that trend is. And I think fashion as a term speaks to people feeling left out. It speaks to a lot of people not being good enough to be a part of fashion. And I think for people, you know, every one of us wears clothing, it's a human basic need. People wear different clothes for different reasons. But when we call it fashion where it implies that it's only for people who are like really trendy, who should care, or people who have really, I mean, honestly, like people who have really exciting dialed in. Personal style should only care about fashion. But really what we're talking about is clothing. It's just like slow clothes doesn't roll off the tongue, right? If you say it more than three times fast, it just turns into like one long sound. But that's what we're really talking about is slow clothing also doesn't work. Right. I think the word fashion actually makes.
- [22:31]
Brenda
It more exclusive than it should be.
- [22:34]
Amanda
I don't know the solution, right? I did one time literally pick up a thesaurus at the thrift store and look at the synonyms for fashion and for clothing and nothing was good. Nothing sounded Good.
- [22:46]
Danelle
And that gets back to it being something that people don't think is for them, because they don't think that they have a reason to wear a shirt. And when it's fashion, you can kind of set it aside and be like, oh, this? That's not for me, because I'm not fashionable, because I don't deserve to wear this shirt. I don't have a place to wear this shirt where really, it's just clothing. And what you put on your body should be ethical and sustainable, whether or not you're wearing it in your kitchen or, you know, in a corporate office or in a Runway or whatever. And I fall into this all the time because I cook, and I am a terrible at wearing aprons. And so I constantly am, like, fighting getting stains out of my expensive shirts that I shouldn't be wearing in the kitchen. Shoulder shouldn't.
- [23:39]
Amanda
Right.
- [23:39]
Danelle
I don't know.
- [23:40]
H
I wanted to jump on the apron comment because I think it's going to tie into some of the other things we want to talk about here, where I have an apron that was gifted to me by my very best friend. It's the apron that Claire Saffitz wears whenever she does her videos. And it is so nice. Like, it's such full coverage. Like, I am the person who gets everything everywhere. I've ruined many shirts with a grease stain.
- [24:07]
Danelle
I can't wait to see what you're gonna say.
- [24:09]
H
Yeah. So I love. I love this apron so much. I have probably five aprons because I went through a period where I was collecting them and just really enjoyed it. I cook a lot. This is the only apron I ever reach for because it does its job so well. I feel so comfortable in it. I know I'm safe doing what I'm doing. And every time I put it on, I'm reminded of this gift. And I think that's a good example of what makes clothing matter to us as well. Like, you can think of those items that if it is clean, you are reaching for it because you love to wear that thing, whether. Because it's sentimental, because the way it physically feels, the way it makes you feel about yourself. Like, that is such an important component of. To what Marley was saying with personal style. Right. It gives you a feeling. Like, that is so important in our clothing. You have feelings about your clothing, whether you're consciously processing them or not. When you open up your closet and morning and you go to get dressed, there are feelings there that you are navigating. And clothing, even if you're a functional clothing person, which I tend to describe myself that way. Maybe I'm, I'm coming into my style a little bit more. But even if you're functional, those, those feelings are there and they're worth unpacking and, and spending some time with because it's, it's a part of every second of every day.
- [25:40]
Danelle
I know that everyone will have comments on this, but I think that that is why there are not as many fat people who come into slow fashion, because we have terrible relationships with clothing. I know that every fat person here has horror stories about clothing. And when you go into your, you know, especially probably when we were younger and had less control and there are fewer good brands and whatever going into your closet and not wanting to wear anything. But when you have to make an investment to wear a piece, you have to love it. You have to have that connection with it, right? And I think that that might be something that we have to work on to change who wears slow fashion or sustainable fashion. Is that it's okay, like, we need like a public healing ceremony. Like, it's okay to love this piece of clothing. It's okay to find something that you really love. Like, you don't have to look X, Y, Z way that we all thought we had to look in our low rise jeans in middle school or whatever it was because the world is different now. And I, I hope that events that we have that many of you have participated in here, like Philly Fat on, are helping people heal from that by putting brands in front of them with people who look like them at the forefront of those brands. But we have to like, continually support these people so that they don't go out of business.
- [27:18]
Amanda
Okay, so I have an anecdote that I think is really going to resonate with you, Danelle, which is. It's kind of a boring anecdote, but I know you're going to have an opinion here. So I'm sure all of you are know of and maybe even listen to that podcast, Maintenance phase, right? You all, you all know that one? No. Okay. Do you all know about what Reddit it is? Does everybody here know what Reddit is? Okay, so maintenance phase, I highly recommend it is. It is a. It is a podcast about bodies and fatphobia. And it's, it's actually really incredibly well done. And they have a subreddit for their fan base who are very loyal and talk about how like life changing it is for them. Some of the episodes are better than others. But like, in general, I, it has been really helpful for me to listen to. And someone in there, actually, it was so weird. They posted about Clothes Horse in there, which for me, being a fan of Maintenance phase and which I think of as like this massive successful podcast for someone in there to be like, hey, I know that this is like about clothing, but you should listen to clotheshorse. And people were talking about it and then someone said at the.
- [28:26]
H
What the.
- [28:26]
Amanda
One of the last comments, which is that this is the thing you're gonna, you're gonna have thoughts about. Someone says, I don't really care about what's sustainable or ethical or anything like that because Shein was the first time in my life as a fat person that I could actually have style.
- [28:44]
Danelle
Yeah. I'm not surprised. And I see, you know, for listeners, we can all see each other's faces and I see Nico shaking their head enthusiastically because that is, that's exactly what I'm talking about too. And like, how are you going to first invest in a piece that is 5, 10, 20 times more expensive than what you're usually buying without ever trying it on and thinking mentally that you do not deserve or have a place to wear this piece of clothing?
- [29:17]
H
Yeah.
- [29:18]
Danelle
Or you could just buy the $5 Sheehan top and feel super trendy and fashionable.
- [29:23]
H
Yeah, I, oh boy, do I have opinions on this. This is the looming thing that I feel so deeply aware of. Where there are, like, if you think Shein is a problem, wait till you find out about the plus centric companies that are essentially replicating that model and targeting plus size American women. Which, in case folks aren't aware, this is a stat. You'll hear a lot in plus size spaces, especially talking about clothes. But 70% of American women and femmes wear a size 14 or larger, so that is a strong majority. And so if you think about that large number of people and you think about how successful Shein has been with a smaller number of people. There are multiple companies that are starting to emerge who see the money to be made in that market and see a very, very hungry market of people who are tired of being sold the same designs that don't work for them either because of fit issues. Yeah, I see Donnell's indicating the cold shoulder top, I'm assuming. Yes, here we are. The, the, the problem that they're taking advantage of is that there are a whole lot of people with very diverse bodies and very diverse senses of style and what matters to them and how they get dressed. And those folks have been given torrid and lane Bryant and T.J. maxx, and that's about it for a really long time. And they want different options. And they're like, we're happy to give it to you because we can make it super cheap and we know you'll buy it because we've seen this already. So we're going to end up with an even bigger fashion problem as this market gets tapped. It's growing faster than the standard apparel market. Like it's, it's, it's gonna be a potential tidal wave of sustainability problems because there are all these folks who want to get dressed and want to feel good about it and they haven't been served appropriately.
- [31:34]
Danelle
I literally have goosebumps in a bad way. Like horror movie goosebumps.
- [31:40]
Maggie
This is Maggie. I, I think about this a lot obsessively. The original question is like, why is this the case? Why are we not seeing inclusivity body representation? The answer to that question is another question like where the, where's the money? Where's the power? Where are the resources? And just as you're describing, Nico, like the, these people know, they know exactly what buttons to push. They know where needs are unmet. They know where there are gaps in the market and it's predatory and it is so successful because those people in those positions of power have those resources and can, you know, just oversaturate, take over. I think that the individuals, the businesses, the brands that maybe share our values and have different visions for the future in this space aren't operating with multi billion dollar marketing budgets. And frankly like models, whether you're CIS thin white or not, like, you know, there, there's a cost impact with that. There's also the, I guess like opportunity cost. Right. If you're gonna shift like an aesthetic or the way you present yourself, you know, the outward facing brand, there's expense to that as well. Right. Your, your audience is going to be a change for them and it's gonna, it's going to impact your sales and all those things. I think they're, there certainly are existing brands that are resistant to inclusivity because of that or that would be their argument. Right. It just costs too much, which is disgusting. I don't know. My answer is always like blame capitalism. Blame the patriarchy because it's, it's true, you know.
- [33:41]
Brenda
Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep Clothes horse going via their generous Patreon support.
- [33:49]
Amanda
Spokes and Stitches is a size inclusive.
- [33:51]
Brenda
Pattern making and sewing studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
- [33:55]
Amanda
Pattern maker Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of designing and making their own clothes. If you're looking to expand your design skills beyond following store bought patterns, check out Ruby's flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture.
- [34:18]
Brenda
Your unique shape and proportions.
- [34:20]
Amanda
You can use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours. No more full bust, flat seat or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional services such as pattern digitization, size charts, pattern making and grading services for indie slow fashion brands that want to prioritize inclusive sizing. You can find Ruby on Instagram @spokenSandStitches and get in touch with her for professional services at www.spokesandstitches.
- [34:58]
Brenda
Selena Sanders a social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum style Minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover more@shiftwheeler.com late to the Party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold. Floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram. Latetothepartypeople Vino Vintage based just outside of la. We love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on Instagram Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Page is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us out @dylan page.com and find us on Instagram Ylanpage Life and Style Salt Hats Purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram Althats Gentle Vibes Vintage we are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics. We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe, but in your home too. We have thousands of killer vintage pieces ready for their next adventure. See them all on Instagram. Entlevibesvintage Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace. Located in the historic Eastern market, our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online store@thumbprintdetroit.com and find us on Instagram ThumbprintDetroit Vagabond Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale markets in San Francisco as well as at a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL location located in the Arts district of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram vagabondvintagedtlv and keep an eye out for their website coming fall of 2020.
- [38:56]
Amanda
Maggie, you bring up a really good point there. Which is the excuse I hear most often from these brands is like, oh, well, it's expensive, right? We, we can't do it because it's expensive. Or we tried that and no one bought it because it'll be like, oh, we did that one thing that one time in a size extra large and then it didn't sell. And then like now, now we realize that we can never sell it again. So Itohan not to put you on the spot, but you actually work in a, in a, like a space where clothing is actually being like designed and made. In your opinion, is it like highly expensive and risky to make clothes in larger sizes?
- [39:34]
Etoha
Is it expensive and risky to make clothes for plus sizes? Yes. Is it expensive and risky to make clothes period? Yes.
- [39:40]
Amanda
You know, a lot of my clients are these like smaller brands and let Me tell you making clothes is risky and expensive and scary regardless of the size. I would agree with that.
- [39:49]
Danelle
I actually heard, and I wish I knew the brand or micro brand, but I heard a founder who is at least male presenting talk about like why he doesn't charge more for plus size clothes and especially being a smaller brand explained that there's minimums on fabric orders and on dyeing and that plus size orders actually help them bring more items to the market and make them available. And I wish I remembered. I've seen it a couple, couple times on Instagram, but every time I hear like so many of these businesses making these arguments, I'm like, you haven't even done the leg work to understand how to optimize the business that you're in and, and take advantage of a customer base and utilize that customer base to better your entire business. Not just for them, for everyone who wants a new style of pants or.
- [40:44]
H
Whatever, it's, it's not a production operations problem, it's a marketing problem. And I mean that in the sense of marketing is the brand promise you make to your customers. Right? And speaking as a plus size person, it has been made extremely clear to me who cares about me and who doesn't when it comes to brands that are, are making clothing and whether I can reliably get the sizes that I need from a brand. And so for a brand that's been around sometimes for decades, I won't name names, but I think some folks might know who I have in mind for brands that have been around for decades to come in, do a big old marketing campaign for six to nine months about plus sizes and give it six to nine months to succeed and say, here we are, we're here, everyone come and combine all the things. It shouldn't be surprising that the decades you spent excluding those people didn't get erased overnight. You don't, you don't just undo that. It's not like the people are there, but you've pushed them out of your door for years. And so that's where I get excited about the smaller brands we've all kind of been recognizing. And their challenge is how do I survive long enough to find my customers to build this business and make it sustainable? Because a business like this, beyond very, very micro creation is expensive to maintain. And so they're fighting this uphill battle. And these larger companies that have done a lot of damage for a really long time are just like, oh, nope, it's too hard, they're not there. Well, you're kind of Reaping what you sowed at this point. So I don't think this brand is necessarily in a position to, to do that super successfully. It's a big ship to turn.
- [42:40]
Maggie
They made that bed for sure. I think I know who you're talking about. It's like we're gonna say that we're gonna do this, we're gonna do it half ass. And then when it, when we don't get the results that we're expecting, you know, major revenue super quickly, we're just gonna call the whole thing off and like, to hell with the consequences. Like, what, what a disappointment.
- [43:02]
Danelle
But as a millennials, and a few of us are, we were traumatized in that brand changing rooms for years, from elementary school to high school traumatized. Then all of a sudden they want us to come and trust them. They change their ways only to completely give gaslight us into thinking they were going to make clothes for us.
- [43:28]
Amanda
I mean, I'm gonna go ahead and name a name here. I'm gonna talk about anthropology. So when I. Oh, I think we.
- [43:35]
Danelle
Were talking about Old Navy probably.
- [43:36]
Amanda
I know anthropology.
- [43:40]
Etoha
They all count.
- [43:41]
Amanda
They all count. And actually I will just say the anthropology situation that I saw unfold with their plus sizing was not different than Old Navy. I am somehow I'm more like disappointed in Old Navy because I did sort of like, I don't know if anyone there had any sense they would realize that that's where the money is. I mean, as you know, as we were saying earlier, like the majority of women in the United States are over a size 14, right? And when I was working at ModCloth, our business had plateaued years ago and the only growth that was keeping that company moving forward was plus sizing. Like, we just kept growing and growing and growing that business. And everywhere I worked after that, I was like, hey, y'all are kind of stupid because, like, there's only so many like thin, thin people to sell clothes to. Like, if you really want to make money, you need to dress more people. So when I was working for Nuuly, Anthropologie was starting to work on this plus size expansion. And in typical, I feel like this is the same thing that probably happened at Old Navy in the beginning. It was like, oh, we're gonna do it up, we're gonna do it in all stores. We're going to hire a whole team that buys for it. We're going to like do huge product assortment, this big marketing push, and we're going to work with all these influencers and it's like, wow, you guys were like the last people I thought were going to do this. This is a pretty fat phobic campus. So great. And we at nuuly we, we placed orders against everything that anthropology was developed in, plus sizing as well. We were really excited about it. And I saw over the next few months as the, the orders that we had placed were being canceled because some of the products had come in months. Once again, this is a brand that's never had extended sizing ever. It didn't all sell out in one day and make a million dollars. So they were like, oh, I guess, I guess people that size don't buy clothes. So we're going to scale it back. Like no one seems to understand that you need to build trust and it takes time. And I think the attitude in all the brands I've worked for even beyond sizing has been like, if we didn't make like a gazillion dollars off of this idea in a month, we're abandoning it. Whether it was like we're going to start selling bras or we're going to start selling festival clothes or we're going to extend sizes like nobody wants to see it through. And I like Old Navy. I mean they spent so much money on that rollout and then they're like, oh, I guess it didn't work the end, right? Like what? I don't feel like we can trust these large brands to get it together and do it because they're not forward thinking ever. It's always about what's happening right at this moment. Obviously if they were thinking about the long term future of their businesses even they would have extended sizing a long time ago. They wouldn't be making like garbage clothes either. You know, they wouldn't be trying to compete with Shein. They would be thinking about the big picture of maybe like if we don't destroy this planet, people will keep buying clothes in the future. You know, like they're not forward thinking. They're always in this exact time period. It's sort of like I think my cat is kind of like that where he's never thinking of anything that's going to happen in the future. He's in the moment. I think a lot of these brands just live in the moment, right?
- [46:54]
H
I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on one of the problems I think more slow fashion oriented brands run into. So like what you're describing is essentially taking the approach of the way we're going to make money is by selling a Lot of cheap stuff. So that's volume. Right. We need a lot of volume to make that work financially. The alternative to that is lower volume, higher price. Right. We don't need to sell as much because we're selling, like, more expensive items. So my question there is, like, items that are made to last, items that are made to be kept for longer, more sustainable. What are your thoughts around what happens for brands that are making really good stuff when they've tapped into their core customer base, they've served that core customer base really well, and now they've made a bunch of stuff that you don't have to come back and buy a bunch of. Like, what happens when you make a product so good you don't have to keep buying it? Right. How do those brands continue to. To like, survive and succeed?
- [48:00]
Marlee
So I tried to start a conversation about this, actually on Instagram, and I was like, run off the Internet for a few days because. So, yes, because I have the same exact thought that once I started buying sustainable clothing, there are pieces in my closet that maybe, Yes, I paid $150 for five years ago. To me, if I bought something five years ago and paid $150 for it, and I'm still wearing it regularly, that is a piece that is absolutely worth more than $150. And there should be a system where if I so choose, I can give that brand more money. That. That's. That's part of that. That was one of my ideas that everyone hated. But I do, I do think there is something to be said for there should be ways that we are able to support brands beyond just buying more stuff from them and by sort of giving back to them. If the pieces that we have purchased from them really have that level of longevity in our closet, that is more than what we paid for them in the first place.
- [49:10]
Maggie
You. You are giving back. In that scenario, you're going to tell everybody you know, and they're going to tell everybody they know. Like, this is an investment piece. You would not believe how long it lasts, how well made it is. All of that, I think about planned obsolescence in the quote, unquote fashion space. Like, we have been trained as consumers to wash, wear, dispose of, forget. And I think this idea of coming back to, like, clothing as an investment in ourselves as people, as individuals, as communities, all of that, as opposed to a commodity, is really interesting, especially in the context of a conversation about business. Like, how do we, how do we make this work? Or what does the future look like in that context? Yeah.
- [49:59]
Amanda
I actually, I'm like riffing on this idea though, because it's like blowing my mind. I'm like really excited about it. This idea of like, how would you continue to support that brand? One thing I'll say first off right out of the gate is like, people are always going to need close. There are a lot of people on this planet. And so maybe these brands could stop focusing on trying to sell as much as as possible to their existing customers and think about expanding their customer base. Right. Selling awesome stuff to more people. And part of that, if you like loved something that you bought, you spent $150 and you've had it for five years right now and you want to ensure that that brand is continuing and doing this great work. What if there was an opportunity to gift something from that brand, maybe the thing that you love to someone who can't afford it? It could be someone, you know, it could be some sort of program where like, and not like fake charity like TOMS does or whatever where they're just like make all these shoes that no one wants, but like actually like, I don't know, like maybe you even get connected with the person who you're gonna buy the shirt for. Like, how incredible would that be? Like to gift forward this awesome stuff? I don't know.
- [51:11]
Danelle
I like that idea.
- [51:13]
Etoha
No, I love that idea.
- [51:14]
Amanda
I'll probably get chased off the Internet for saying that though. You're right. People will hate it somehow. But I, I would do that. There.
- [51:20]
Danelle
There are so like Boombas also has that model where like buy and give. They actually do give those socks to people because one of my family members received them through a charitable organization. Just so you know, they actually do get the socks to other people.
- [51:38]
Amanda
That's good to know. Tom's. Tom's was like caught like disposing of shoes and stuff. Like it was sketchy. Yeah.
- [51:47]
H
Falls into that category of I love them so deeply that like I saved up and waited because they're, they're, they're wool, so they're not a cheaper item. But I love them so much. They're so nice.
- [52:00]
Danelle
We've talked a lot about the brands not being out there, not making things. But what bothers me so much about the brands that are out there and continue to put out new things and produce fewer items and higher quality. Yay. We love that. Right. Is that there are creating a scarcity mindset for some of these customers and it's like impossible to buy the freakin shirt because people are buying it like one minute after it's dropped and then in like they're over consuming slow fashion, which makes it not slow fashion. And like I'm am so guilty of this. Like my closet is giant. But I refuse to participate in these like frenzies of buying the latest color in the same bamboo bra that has come out four times. And now there's 17 variations of this bamboo bra in 27 colors. That drives me crazy. Thoughts.
- [53:02]
Amanda
I mean, I have thoughts on that because I creep on all these Facebook groups that are like mega fans of all these different slow fashion brands and people are doing exactly what you just said. Like, I think of like Big Bud Press is an example where everybody has to buy everything that comes out in every new color or like new works. It's the same thing. And it. I always kind of like, I sometimes like to just like close the screen because it gives me anxiety to think about these people hoarding all of this stuff and really ultimately beyond even the environmental impact of it all really impacting their like financial health by having to have that shirt in the 27 colors it comes in. But I guess my question is how do we get people to stop doing that? Because it's like a human behavior, right?
- [53:53]
Marlee
I think this is where we sort of have to come back to personal style and doing personal style work. Because at least for me and for many of my clients, figuring out what you actually like to wear when it comes to colors, like what colors you actually enjoy putting on your body, that makes such a difference between saying, I liked this one bra and I need 10 of it to being able to say, well, these are like the three, four colors I realistically like. So yes, maybe I own four of this bra and I don't necessarily need four, but that's still far fewer than the people that, yeah, are basically doing the equivalent of a shein haul. But just from a sustainable brand, I.
- [54:36]
H
Would build on that and say what we're discussing here is the problem of over consumption. But I think sometimes it's helpful to maybe reframe it for folks as the problem of under enjoyment. So you could defend like, I think there's a place for maximalists in the world. Like my, my mother in law has more clothes than I think I've ever seen one person have. But you know what? Those clothes are not in the landfill. And she looks at them regularly and she wears them enthusiastically and she barely ever washes anything. Like in some ways she is a sustainability queen, even though she has a massive amount of stuff that she's accumulated over the years. And So I think asking people, like, what is bringing you the most genuine joy to wear and to have and to use can help people take that second to ask themselves if buying another one of X is going to bring them that joy. Because I'll tell you what, I have four black Big Bud varsity tees because I fell in love with that T shirt and it was perfect for me. And I was like, this is. This is going to be my T shirt. And I wear those constantly. But I knew what I liked about it and why I liked it and that I was going to wear it because I had already purchased one and I kept. It was always in the laundry, right? So I think getting people to tap into their own inherent motivation is going to be a lot more effective than maybe convincing or shaming, because we're just programmed not to want to face those things. They're hard, right? But we are programmed to be like, oh, I feel. I feel good. I feel good about myself. I feel good about my choices.
- [56:27]
Danelle
Imagining this person. It's not that they're wearing them or loving them. It's just like a stack of bras in a basket.
- [56:35]
Maggie
Like a collection.
- [56:37]
Danelle
Yeah, It's a collective. It's a collection.
- [56:39]
Maggie
This is all resonating super deeply. I love what Marley said about personal style and even just like, reframing that language. I love the reference to, like, the lack of enjoyment. I. One of the. I guess a synonym that comes to mind is like an emptiness, right? An emotional void of some kind. This is what I work on in my own business. And it's one client at a time, right. I continue to brainstorm alternatives to reach larger groups of people at once with this education on self awareness and like, internal reflection as opposed to looking for cues and direction from external influences, namely marketing, advertisement, all the shit that we're bombarded with as consumers. I don't know if there is like, a holistic solution where we can make any kind of rapid change, but I do know that one human at a time, sitting in front of them in a virtual or physical space and giving them permission to confront these things, providing a space where they can explore them without judgment or shame, and really hoping to connect them with resources that, you know, get. Get them closer to those more positive emotions at the same time. This is really interesting because, like, the fashion world, again, it. It preys on weakness, insecurity. Anything that we see in advertising and marketing is we're selling some kind of emotional ideal, right? Like, if you make this investment, you get to be part of this club or in this beautiful environment or, you know, it's going to have a positive impact on your life. But, like, literally, again, as consumers, we've been trained not to listen to ourselves, not to trust ourselves, not to have those questions or create space for those things. Because it is, Isn't it easier to just throw money at a problem?
- [58:48]
H
Does this feel familiar to anyone else? Like, I don't know if this is just. That's how my, my brain works at this point, but this feels extremely familiar to me as working through, like, diet culture did when I was learning about intuitive eating and just had a moment where I was like, oh, yeah, maybe I should take a second to just ask myself how I feel when I'm eating whatever it is that I'm eating and realize, oh, you know what? This airport sandwich is not worth my time, let alone my money to eat because I'm not enjoying it and I don't need it right now. Like, versus, you know, I would give my firstborn or another one of these creme brulees. Like, it's incredible. It's what I want. It makes me happy. Like, and I'm going to eat it until it doesn't make me happy anymore. You know, I think there's this sense of, like, distrust. Maggie, I think you said, like, we're taught to not trust ourselves, and I think people can trust themselves more than they think. But it does require a moment and a lot of consumption and a lot of, like, constant advertising in every social space that we occupy online kind of doesn't move you in that direction.
- [60:13]
Maggie
Yeah. Like, you can't, you can't just put, like, on a single billboard in a major metro area. Like, right, it's okay. You deserve this. Like, you are enough. If that were the solution or some analogous, you know, effort, like, why don't we all pull our resources together, all the small brands, all the people trying to be part of this movement and make a collective investment in getting that message out. Because individually, it is really hard. Like I said, it's. It's one person at a time for me in my business until such time as I launch a podcast or some other, like, you know, more outbound, far further reaching kind of thing. Yeah. Like, it's not going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen in our lifetimes. I don't think think, even though we, we do see the progress this is. I mean, you brought up diet culture. We've talked about fat phobia. Like, all of this is intersectional. It's also generational. Like, this Is this is our inheritance? Like, what are we going to leave the next generation? Because this has been compounding over the last. I don't know. You know, it's not just been. Since fast fashion came about in whatever, early 2000s, you know, this has been. We've been moving in this direction, for better or worse, for 100 years, you know.
- [61:38]
Etoha
Yeah, I definitely agree with everything that has been said. Like, I literally have just been listening and absorbing everything, but it's definitely not going to happen overnight. But I mean, it's not also the aspect of, you know, doing everything slow. Like, I feel like in relation to slow fashion, it's actually like thinking about, what are the things I actually like before buying them. Like, yes, I like this T shirt, and I like it in all these colors, but do I need them in all these colors?
- [62:06]
H
Does it fit?
- [62:07]
Etoha
What's in my wardrobe? Have I looked at my wardrobe before, seeing the new drop and seeing that I need it?
- [62:11]
Amanda
These are good questions, right? I think, you know, when you find yourself buying every color of the rainbow that that item comes in. Like, you have to have a real. A real moment with yourself. Like, when was the last time I bought a. I really wore a yellow shirt? Okay, maybe. Maybe, you know, I hate to call out yellow, but that's. For example, I don't have any yellow clothing. But that doesn't mean that there wasn't a time in my life where I was like, oh, well, I should force myself to wear yellow, much like, eat that sandwich at the airport. I mean, that was like you were talking about that, Nico. I was like, I feel that so much in terms of food, but also in terms of clothing, where I wore what I felt like I was supposed to wear, and I felt really uncomfortable doing it. And, you know, when people talk about comfort or discomfort with clothing, I think they tend to think like, oh, are you wearing clothes that are tight or itchy or don't fit you well? But I'm talking about, like, the psychic comfort of it all where I am. Like, I. Why am I wearing this outfit? This is not who I am. I feel like I'm wearing a costume, and I feel like people are going to get the wrong idea of who I am. But for some reason, I'm wearing this because I feel like this is what people expect me to wear or want me to wear or wearing. This is like, how I fit in in a way that I don't normally feel like I fit in. I think we've all. I see head nodding here. Like, we've all Dressed a certain way because we felt like that's what we were supposed to do to be successful, whatever that means. I mean I definitely would dress a certain way because I was like, maybe people will want to have, go on a date with me if I wear this. Like, you know, or maybe I will get a promotion at work or you know, what have you. Just by wearing this like costume that isn't emotionally comfortable for me. Like I think we force a lot of stuff on ourselves.
- [64:09]
H
Yeah, well, I mean if that is what is being shown, like to what Donnell said earlier, like you look at laundry commercials and like you don't even see fat people, let alone in like product photography for, for different brands. Like if you can't, if you don't see a wide variety of things being represented, you're getting a message that you are supposed, supposed to look a certain way. And I think that's even more true as a plus sized person. Like I was addicted to what not to wear because I was like, tell me what I need to do for people to be okay with my body, not for me to be okay, but so no one looks at me weird or like thinks whatever negative thing might be happening in their head and you know, it's, it's amazing how much power.
- [65:02]
Maggie
That holds that hit a really, really sensitive nerve, the what not to wear reference specifically because like I, I felt similarly attached to that program I guess for different reasons. And there were influences that came out of that whole philosophy, that whole culture that informed what I do today. And I, I don't know, I, I feel like I learned what not to do, like how not to approach this conversation with clients. But I also want to point out that there is some reformation in our midst now. Like even, even Clinton and Stacy have acknowledged that that was really toxic and unhealthy and unproductive and have changed their tune. I don't know if I haven't seen the new show but it's called wear whatever the you want. I think something like that.
- [65:58]
H
Emotionally ready to trust them again.
- [66:02]
Maggie
It's hard. Yeah. I mean I want to believe years ago. Right.
- [66:05]
Amanda
It's.
- [66:05]
Danelle
Yeah, but what, what can we, I'm trying to think about so we, we've criticized, we have reflected etc and I have thoughts about what brands that we love can do to help other people find them, commit to purchasing it, see themselves in their clothes. And when we were talking about some of these things like oh, I feel like I have to be that kind of person and wear this kind of clothing or I, I don't think I can wear that kind of clothing. It made me think about the epidemic of the single plus size model. There's so many brands who have one plus size model and that is the only one that they use the token. Yeah. And I understand for so many of these smaller brands that it's kind of easy. Right? Like maybe they're also the fit model and they come in and they know how to work with them and it's hard to find plus size models, blah, blah, blah, block skus after skus. But I, I look at some of these like more maybe I would call them like eccentric brands with like louder colors and patterns and they have one model or two plus size models that they're always using. And I can't see myself being that person because I don't have like the cool haircut that they have and the funky glasses and my nails aren't always like done in interesting ways and whatever. Like I feel like I don't have that Persona to wear or buy their clothes even though I'm really attracted to them. And then the other thing is like we're, we don't all have the same fat body. So your singular plus size model is not doing it for all of us.
- [67:57]
Maggie
So just think about, yeah, gender diversity as well. We've talked a lot about like body diversity relative to size and shape and proportion. But like, yeah, what, what do you do if you don't see yourself represented? And if the entire system and industry is built around, you know, thin, white, tall, you know, linear, whatever, but also like CIS presenting, heterosexual presenting, like how do you know? And I honestly, I think it starts with these conversations having, building community around these things, maybe partnering with brands who want to reach more people by including, quote, unquote, real people. We're all real people. But like more diversity in the conversations in earnest versus like okay, we've got our one go to, you know, like that checks the box. We've got our token plus size person and we have our, our token gender diverse or a person of color. We deserve better.
- [69:06]
H
When the they feature a couple of plus size people, but they're all plus size in the same way. Right. So you hired three size 14 hourglass shape models when you could have hired a wider variety of sizes or you could have hired people who carry more of their weight in their bottom half, people who carry more of their weight in the top half. People carry people who carry it mostly in their tummy. Like a size 16 on a person who carries most of their weight in their tummy is not going to look the same as the person who's carrying most of the weight in their hips or the person who is actually between sizes. Right. Because we don't all fit neatly into one size because that's, that's just not how bodies work. So, yeah, I, I think there's a lot to be said there because even if you show every size, you haven't shown necessarily the wide variety ways that bodies could be proportioned. Especially like as you have more of your body. Right. When there's more body, there's, there's lots of places it can go and ways that it can move.
- [70:14]
Danelle
Yeah. Not to mention sitting people who, who need to sit, who can't stand or just like, how are those pants gonna look when, when my belly becomes comfortable in a seated position? Because there's definitely pants that I have that are only meant for standing events. But I think about that a lot. That's definitely been one of my pet peeves that I've tried to bother brands that I am a high value customer of to try to leverage like my dollar personally. And I encourage people to do that in order to make slow fashion more approachable and seem achievable for people.
- [71:01]
Amanda
I think that's a great call out. And I just also want to jump in and say that there's also an issue with age because in the highly unlikely event that you see a model who Is over their 20s, they're going to be incredibly thin.
- [71:17]
Brenda
Right.
- [71:17]
Amanda
Like, there was this brand I was looking at called Batsheva. I'm sure some of you have heard of them. And they have used a model for one of their recent campaigns who I'd say it's probably in their 60s or 70s. Incredible. Great. They're incredibly thin. They're like standard the size, the kind of bodies that we always see in fashion. And you know, I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm older than all of you. Like being in my 40s, I'm like invisible to all of these brands. Like, I don't exist anymore. I mean, to be honest, I kind of walk down the street and I'm invisible too. And like, realistically, when you're in your 40s is probably when you're kind of in your best financial situation. So once again, all these brands who are like, you know, forgetting that like the real money is going to be interesting, more people of more sizes, it's also going to be in like showing people who are different ages in clothing. I walked by this huge billboard in Japan and I, I don't know it was like Gucci or some other like, you know, luxury brand. And I am not kidding you, that model could not have been more than 12. And I just was like, this is disgusting to me. Like I. Why, why can't we like show adults?
- [72:33]
Maggie
It's interesting because I, like, one of the things I was asking myself, this is Maggie, by the way, like, is this exclusive to America? Is it just a Western problem? Evidently not. But also just as far as any kind of diversity, age, gender, race, all of those things, like, they're trying to sell an ideal, right? And if, if we showcase age and wrinkles and gray hair and embrace that, then what does that mean for the beauty and anti aging industry? It's almost like a, a contradiction in terms. Like if, if you are the person at the top making the decisions as to where to invest dollars to make more dollars, that doesn't really compute, right? Like where, where would the anti aging industry go? You know, if we're, if we're showing that this is normal, this is beautiful, this is acceptable, it's sort of. Yeah, I don't know, it's, it's counterintuitive. Not to me, but I'm saying like from that capitalistic marketing standpoint, it doesn't make sense. It makes sense for us as consumers. We want that, we need that for our emotional health, for our financial health, our social health, all of that. Yeah, I think that's the answer. It's like it, it doesn't serve them, you know, it doesn't make enough money.
- [74:04]
Brenda
If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Close Source is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses, please go give them your support. Blank CAS, or Blanket Coats by cas, is focused on restoring, renewing and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram @blankcas and a website will be launched soon@blankcasts.com located in Whistler, Canada. Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a.
- [75:03]
Amanda
Vegan cafe and lots of rad products.
- [75:06]
Brenda
From other small sustainable businesses. Our mission is to create a brand and community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle, both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram @shopvelvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com. saint Evens is a New York City based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you'll reach for again and again. More than just a store, St. Evens is dedicated to sharing the stories in history behind the garments. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. New Vintage is released every Thursday@wearsaintevens.com with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram at Wear St. Evans. That's ware St. Evens Country Feedback is a mom and pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in in used rock, country and soul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares. Do you have used records you want to sell? Country Feedback wants to buy them? Find us on Instagram countryfeedbackvintageandvinyl or head down east and visit our brick and mortar. All are welcome at this inclusive and family friendly record shop in the country. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color of Obsessed Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen get ready for rainbows with a side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow Fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful, beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicaunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. picnic Wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion Designer for over 10 years, but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic Wear offers minimal waste and max maximum authenticity. Future Vintage over future garbage. Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram Utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space. With the pewter thimble, we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures available to you from the comfort of your own home, responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if.
- [79:30]
Amanda
Not, can it be recycled?
- [79:33]
Brenda
Sign up@decodenim.com to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of that surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com.
- [79:57]
Amanda
So I know we need to wrap it up in the next 15 minutes, so I thought we could talk a little bit about how we can support the brands out there that are doing things the right way. And also if you have any that you would like to shout out, that would be great too. Conversely, like, well, I think we've talked about what you need to do if they're not doing what you want, which is, you know, tell them. But I think, you know, there is this, I don't know, I just keep seeing slow fashion brands go out of business, you know, and then we're going to be left with like, we can only get clothes from Amazon or something, which like makes me beyond sad. Well, I'll be working at Amazon too, so don't worry. Maybe we'll get employees discount.
- [80:45]
Marlee
Well, I mean, first of all, tell them to come on my podcast because that's what I do.
- [80:49]
Amanda
I.
- [80:49]
Marlee
It's, that's literally the only thing that I care about doing on my podcast is showcasing these brands, highlighting these brands, showing them in the best light, telling people why they should support these brands, sharing their whole backstory. And then what I hear from these founders is that they just need more people to talk about them because they're never, ever, ever going to have the marketing budget. This has sort of come up up previously to compete with these larger brands. They're just, they're, it's never going to happen. They're never going to be the first brand that comes up in the Google, the Google search. And they exist like they, the people constantly, I constantly have clients who are like this thing doesn't exist, that thing doesn't exist and I find it every single time. So these brands absolutely exist. And if you have a brand that you love, you just have to shout it from the rooftops as much as possible, share it on your social media, whatever you have to do to get people to know about it.
- [81:50]
Amanda
And will you drop the name of your pod again?
- [81:53]
Marlee
Yes, it's the Style Me Slowly podcast.
- [81:55]
Amanda
Thank you.
- [81:58]
H
I'll piggyback there. Because that's also the goal of forea. Like from a brand perspective, we want the brands that are doing the work to be size inclusive and sustainability minded to be the ones that emerge and last through the long haul. Like it is a very hard battle for them. And when they find the people who are like their magical customers that are excited about what they're doing, that is fantastic. I was trying to think about if there was a specific brand I wanted to name and the main reason I not is that on Fourier right now we have over 300 brands listed that you then filter by your body measurements to see which ones are size inclusive to you. And one of the things I think happens to people when they come there is they're like, oh, I didn't know I had this many options. I'm not used to this. I wasn't used to this. I didn't expect this to get to the size that it was because I thought I could could name the brands that were a good fit for me on one hand when I started. And I think there's really something special about being in that environment where you can see so many different bodies in so many different styles and start to feel like there's, there's something for me here. I couldn't find it before because it's been intentionally hard because to, to Marley's point they're getting out out outspent like crazy right when it comes to, to every form of marketing. So yeah, that I would, I would shout that out because I don't know your body and I don't know your style but I'm pretty sure there's something that you would be excited to find there.
- [83:44]
Danelle
After hearing both of your ideas and suggestions, I was trying to think of something that wasn't the same thing because I won't shut up about the brands that I like and I think everybody I know is tired of hearing about it. But I'll say as I sit here in like a major brand T shirt that I'm not going to give the air time to, but I showed everyone. I did buy this piece of fast fashion from Refined plus, which is like an Instagram based secondhand business. My advice is to wear the clothes. Like we really covet some of these items and I find myself doing this, oh, I can't like put on that thing because I'm not going anywhere special or whatever. And I'll say that there's a couple people on Instagram, so a lot of people know her dear in a tree pose who has really encouraged me to like actually wear the clothes that I spend all this money on. And it doesn't have to be a special occasion because if you don't wear them, no one's going to ask you about it. And then, you know, you're not being the piece of walking advertisement and marketing that they need you to be, right? If you, you know, stand up on your soapbox and preach and preach and preach about your favorite brand, but then your friend never sees you wearing it, then like, what does that tell them? So wear the clothes.
- [85:11]
Maggie
I say that to clients like, you don't need an excuse, you don't need a reason or an occasion. Like, you are the occasion, right? Like, you're worth it. You, you deserve this. And I love that. There's like that other aspect too, like a walking advertisement. If I had any suggestions and I, anyone who's ever worked with me or spoken with me about this topic, like, I, I probably won't ever mention a brand ever. Like, that's, that's not my style. I feel like there are more fundamental things at play that have more value for me and the people that work with me. It's not necessarily about brands. That said, like, if you do have a great experience, online reviews are super powerful. Like, how else are you going to find things like reviews help help brands with visibility. But I would also encourage people, especially those who are concerned about like the financial implications, like, I can't afford this. Save up for it. You know, I have a, I have a really good friend who happens to be a designer and also a sewist and an activist who, you know, we were having a casual conversation at one point and they were like, like, put a dollar in your pillowcase for the, you know, every day for the next Year, like whatever it takes. Like, recognize that clothing, again is an investment as opposed to a commodity. It's an investment in your values, it's an investment in yourself, the things that you believe in, and it's worth it. You might not have the 150 or 300 bucks right now, but over time, like, save up for it, it's worth it. And for anyone who has ever flirted with the idea of custom clothing, the experience that you have, the level of intimacy is unmatched. Except for maybe like tattoo artists and hairdressers. Like someone giving someone the opportunity to get to know you on that level, getting to know your body, what actually works and the adjustments that can be made is like life changing and eye opening. So I'm obviously, I'm a huge proponent of, you know, sourcing based on what already is, is in existence and in rotation. But if you do have an opportunity, I think that that experience, working with a tailor, working with a designer, one on one for something that's just for you and having the input to like, make all the choices on the specs that go into that piece is outstanding. And yeah, it's, it's not cheap, but this is. These are lifetime things. I'm looking at a few in my closet right now. Like, yeah, I treasure them and the generations of people who come after me. Like, I will gift it once I'm done with it and it will continue to live on. Right. It's not going to end up in a landfill, which is pretty cool.
- [88:09]
Etoha
Definitely. And I guess like to tie everything up. If you, if there's a brand that you love or clothes that you see a brand that you love but you can't really afford, post it, talk about it, where to wear the clothes you actually enjoy. As someone who has actually like sewn clothes for like small businesses, I can tell you anytime you make a purchase, it does mean something. People do care. And you talking about them online, you reposting an image, you actually wearing the clothes means a lot. I also highly recommend not underestimating the element of plus size, thrift and vintage stores, because they exist too. Also thinking about clothing swaps, because those exist too.
- [89:01]
Amanda
Yeah, those are all really great pieces of advice, I will say, like, if you can't afford to buy something but you love it and you want that brand to continue sharing stuff, pinning it on Pinterest, Seriously, like, some of the clients I work with are paying Pinterest to please, for the love of God, show their designs to people. Like, help them out, man. Share these things all over the Internet, recommend it to friends. I. That's advertising and that's what they need because they're lost. They're lost in the mix from. With all of these companies who have these like massive budgets that like just drown everybody else out. I'm sure you're seeing it on social media right now, right?
- [89:41]
Danelle
Also enter the inter Instagram contests.
- [89:44]
Amanda
Yeah, exactly.
- [89:46]
Danelle
Enter the contest.
- [89:47]
Etoha
Yes.
- [89:49]
Danelle
I have won a lot of Instagram contests because people don't enter them.
- [89:53]
Amanda
I never do. That's really good advice.
- [89:55]
Danelle
Do it. If you love a brand and you haven't had a piece of theirs and they're doing an Instagram contest, you better be tagging all your friends in the comments to get the extra, extra entries.
- [90:09]
Amanda
Yeah.
- [90:13]
Etoha
I literally want a pair of shoes from a size inclusive shoe brand called Wider Studios for that exact reason. So can't confirm.
- [90:22]
Amanda
Yeah, that's all really good advice.
- [90:25]
H
I have one other piece of advice I would offer. Don't be afraid to get really intimate with your clothing in the sense of if you have something that you've loved to death and, and it's beyond its wearable life, let's say take the time to take it apart, rip it up, figure out what made it so great. Like, were there like a particular placement of the seams that you're like, wow, this really never bothered me. Was it, oh, there's darting in this. And that gave me a shape that I was really happy about. Like, you would be astounded what you learn about how clothing is made if you were just to tell yourself, let me see if I could copy this. And the knowledge that you get from that is not. It doesn't mean you have to go and sew your entire wardrobe. Although who knows what like passion you could unlock. But it will teach you how to look at clothing with that discerning eye. So you're not going through as much of, Well, I bought 20 things and I sent 18 of them back. You start to unpack. You know what I really like? Button ups that go all the way to the top of the collar with the buttons. Because I like how that makes me feel gender wise. Or I absolutely hate that because I can't stand how my neck feels in that. But once you take that time to really deconstruct what works for you or not and why, you will be a smarter consumer. Even if you don't end up making your own clothes or altering your clothes, you'll have more knowledge to go with and you won't feel as subject to the different marketing handles that are being pulled around.
- [92:12]
Amanda
I think that's such a great call out and a good place to end because I think one of the best things we can do for ourselves is let ourselves know what we like, you know, and what makes us feel good instead of just being given things and feeling like we have to take what we're given. You know, I think we don't really learn about clothes in school. We don't learn about darting or how to even measure ourselves or any of these other things. And when you find something that you love and understand what makes it special to you, it is a major life unlock because now you can I personally have a gazillion like ebay searches that are based on these tiny criteria that I have learned that I like. So it is a major gift for ourselves. Thanks to everyone for spending so much time with me over the past two months as we put together this episode and everyone's individual conversations with me. I'm so grateful for Maggie and Itoha and Marley and Danelle and Nico. If you're not following all of them on social media yet, while I don't know what you're doing, you should definitely do that asap and you can find links for all the ways to find them in the show notes. I realize that this conversation did not capture all the ways in which slow fashion can be more inclusive.
- [93:44]
Brenda
And you know what?
- [93:44]
Amanda
That's okay because I see this as the beginning of a much longer conversation that will continue well into the future.
- [93:53]
Brenda
We will be revisiting this topic from.
- [93:55]
Amanda
Different angles throughout the year. It probably sounds silly at first pass, but conversations like this are actually pretty.
- [94:04]
Brenda
Radical and definitely revolutionary.
- [94:08]
Amanda
We're pushing back on an entire ecosystem of business and marketing and social norms that aren't. Well, none of these things are just inclusive of most people. I mean, we're watching the dismantling of dei, which stands for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. We're seeing the dismantling of these DEI policies here in the United States. States. And it's just wild to me because all these policies do is provide equal access to resources and opportunities. And like, isn't that something we should all want? It's so strange to see DEI as the new moral panic of the 2020s. And it's just as silly as past moral panics like the Satanic panic of the 1980s, but. But in this case it seems way more harmful. And it's just to say disheartening is an understatement. I'm just devastated by all of this. There's Just so much bad news right now. So yeah, in the face of all this chaos and bad news and just ugly stuff happening in the world right now, talking about access to clothing and like good quality ethically made clothing, making that access easier to more people, it's pretty radical and political at this point. Earlier this week I received a comment on an Instagram post that basically told me to to stop talking about political things. And the commenter, who I don't know, I've never seen them comment before actually. They said that they unfollow sustainable fashion accounts who don't stick to their niche by talking about politics. The commenter went on to say that these creators, quote, use their followers as an outlet for their personal feelings. Well, geez Louise is all I can say. As Christine of Lady Hog Vintage reminded me yesterday, one of the original Clothes Horse slogans was the personal is political. And of course that remains true. I'm here to tell you that most likely every aspect of your life is political in nature. For example, for me, my existence is political, okay? As a non binary person, assigned female at birth, living here in the United States, everything about my day to day existence is political. The control of my own body, the kind of health care I can access and afford, the kinds of jobs I am offered and how much I'll be paid where I do and do not feel safe. And that's just, that's just the beginning of all the things about my life as just one person, one little grain of sand, right? How political my life is. So many seemingly minor moments in my life only radicalized me more, made me even more political. You know, catcalls in the streets, creepy dudes finding out I was paid 20% less than my male counterpart.
- [97:21]
Brenda
Being treated like crap at my low.
- [97:23]
Amanda
Paying retail and service jobs, and being treated like crap at my slightly better paying corporate jobs. My struggles finding healthcare as a cancer survivor, the way I was treated as a single parent after my daughter was born. To be honest, my life has been political since the moment I was born into a low income family to a teenage mother. When we talk about Slow Fashion being political, well of course it is political. If our day to day existences are political in nature, yeah, Slow Fashion definitely is. Think about all of the issues it encompasses. Water use and pollution, land use and agriculture, forestry oversight, wealth inequality, carbon emissions, waste colonialism, plastic pollution, fossil fuels, workers rights, women's rights, classism, racism, fatphobia. Really all the bad phobias and isms, and of course the need for policies and laws to regulate this. Currently largely Unregulated industry. So yeah, talking about slow fashion, being a part of the slow fashion community, these are incredibly political things. That's why I'm always reminding you every day that all the things you are doing that seem small, sort of minor in their impact are actually wildly radical and revolutionary. Don't believe me?
- [98:54]
Brenda
Well, here's a bunch of examples.
- [98:58]
Amanda
Mending, repairing and making things last as long as possible. And that includes things like taking laundry very seriously and working on stain removal. Radical. Seriously. Because we live in a society that tells us that new stuff is always.
- [99:12]
Brenda
Better and that we shouldn't hold on.
- [99:14]
Amanda
To things for a long time. So when we do the inverse of that, super radical. Sharing these skills with other people. Also radical. Making our own clothing and other items. Once again, we live in this like, consumerist society. Pretty radical. To make something yourself. Shopping secondhand, once again. In a world where we're encouraged to believe that new and lots of new is far better. That's pretty radical. Or maybe you're a secondhand dealer rescuing things from the landfill and repairing and cleaning them and then giving them a new life with someone else. Once again, pretty radical. Resisting marketing messages that tell you to buy more and more and more stuff and instead doing the work to untangle your own relationship with shopping and consumerism. Yep, pretty radical. Shopping small and local when you can. Also radical. Learning. Learning new stuff about all of these things and then sharing what you've learned with others. Yep. Also radical. Because as we've talked about here before, a lot of the things we know, most people don't know. And it's low key by design. So sharing that information with others is pretty radical. And you know what else? It probably doesn't seem radical or revolutionary, but I believe in so much is that holding onto our hope and our pragmatic optimism and then sharing it with others who need a little refill of it. Super radical. Because we know that doomerism comes from having no faith left. And doomerism leads to giving up, to no longer resisting, to buying something to cheer yourself up. We know that doomerism, that lack of faith, actually leads to overconsumption. So it's pretty radical to hold on to that hope and share it with others. All of these things are important parts.
- [101:11]
Brenda
Of driving resistance and change.
- [101:14]
Amanda
They are revolutionary, they are radical. And you guessed it, they're political. I don't know about you, but I'm constantly being told by people who literally do not know what they are talking about. The clothing is silly, unimportant, just fun. That I should focus my activism elsewhere as as if it's ever been just clothes. It's all of the issues I shared earlier and more like that's just the beginning of the list. And clothing, this industry, this juggernaut around clothing, it impacts everyone on this planet, no matter what they like to wear or even if they wear clothes. Furthermore, it's tangled up with so many other important issues that we face every day that are already most definitely political. So yeah, I'm going to stay political because that's what it is to exist in 2025. To be a good person who cares about things, who cares about others, who cares about this planet, who cares about animals. To care about these things means you are political. I hope you'll stay political too. Because, you know, despite it feeling like the world is falling into pieces at this very moment, I still feel the faith, that strong belief that we will get through this and we will come out the other side of it in a much better place. And I'm looking forward to seeing you next to me on that journey. Thanks for listening to another episode of Closed Source.
- [102:52]
Brenda
Written, researched, edited, hosted.
- [102:54]
Amanda
You Know all the Things by me, Amanda Lee McCarty if you liked what you heard, you can leave a rating, a review, you can subscribe. But most importantly, tell everyone you know, let's get more people into slow fashion and all the other things we talk about here. If you'd like to support my work financially, there are numerous ways you can do that.
- [103:14]
Brenda
You can find it in the show.
- [103:15]
Amanda
Notes, you can find it@CloseHorsePodcast.com and you can find it in the links in my bio on every social media platform platform. I'm on Blue sky now. I am also on Tumblr. I'm trying to just get everyone everywhere they are. So follow me on your platform of choice. And lastly, but of course, never leastly.
- [103:35]
Brenda
Thank you to Mr. Justin Travis White.
- [103:37]
Amanda
For our music and audio support. Bye.