← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Episode 244: Mending is a radical act, with Jeanna and Mary
01:50:27
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- [00:16]
A
Welcome to Closed Source, the podcast that's been thinking a lot about something this terrible guy said to me in my 20s. He said, when you get older, you're going to get more conservative with every passing year. And what has actually happened, because I've been waiting for it, like when's it going to happen? Is that I've gotten more radical and progressive with every passing year. And so I kind of can't wait to just be a wild and radical old crone. And I hope you'll be there being a radical old crone with me. I'm your host, Amanda, and This is episode 244. And this week, taking a short break from the I'm with the Brand series. It'll be back next week because this week we're going to talk about mending. After all, it's secondhand September for a few more days, so what better time to talk about the importance of wearing clothes that already exist by repairing them? Gina and Mary are here to talk about their new book, Stitch It, Don't Ditch It. Simple hand sewn repairs to help you love your clothes for longer. And P.S. you might remember Gina from an episode a few years ago about mindful rehoming, which is also a really important secondhand September topic. In this episode, we're gonna talk about the following how and why Gina and Mary ended up writing a book about mending together. You're gonna be really surprised by the backstory, why it has become unusual to repair your clothing and how we can change that, why we should make the time to mend our clothes. And P.S. it's more than just the environmental impact of it all, why fast fashion clothes deserve repair too, and how to get started on your mending journey. Before we jump into that though, I wanted to just recap something really cool from last weekend, which is that Ruby of Slow Fashion Academy and I, we hosted a crafternoon event in Philadelphia. First we went thrifting at Bargain Thrift Center. Then we went back to Ruby's studio to make cool stuff. I mean, seriously, I was blown away by all of the amazing new things everyone made out of secondhand materials and. And just in a few hours. It was incredible. Dustin was there with us. He helped to run the Heat press so everyone could add a clothes horse transfer to something that they made or brought with them. Itoha, who many of you may probably remember from my series about how slow fashion can be more inclusive, it was early this year. She helped us keep things running smoothly. So thank you so much Itoha. And we wrapped things up with pizza and gluten free confetti cupcakes made by Ruby and me. Seriously though, like, how many podcasts are baking for you? I think that we really raised the bar here at Clothes Horse last year. I. I gave homemade pickles to everyone at the Clothes Horse Jamboree. Once again, pretty chane of the big podcasts out there are doing that. Anyway, it felt for me like a must needed day of joy following a particularly dark and miserable week in a, let's be honest, a dark and miserable year. And as we were mingling at the end of the day, hopped up on cupcakes, I asked everyone to share what keeps them optimistic in really difficult times. And here's, here's what some of the attendees had to say. Hi, I'm Ruby. I live in Philadelphia. And what's keeping me optimistic right now is going to live community events, kind of like this event we're hosting right now. And also things like contra dancing or.
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B
Playing my cello, doing things that are.
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A
Offline and connecting with other people. I mean, I appreciate that as a cello. Yeah, cello person myself. A cello they. A cello they. Yes.
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B
Hi.
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A
Okay. My name is Julia.
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C
I'm from King of Prisha. And at the moment, what's keeping me positive is live music. Just went to a concert and I'm.
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B
Going to one again in two days.
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A
So that's what keeps me going. Hey, I'm Etoha from Philly, and something that's keeping me optimistic is plants, being.
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B
Outside and being able to do things with my hands.
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A
Love all that. All good ones.
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B
Hi, my name is Kaitlyn.
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A
I live in Philadelphia. What's keeping me optimistic is just like building community, getting outside with people, going birding. Yeah, birding. My name is Darla and I live in Philadelphia. I think the thing keeping me most optimistic these days is live theater, cute doggos on the Internet, and crafts. Okay. My name is Carly Cusi. I live in Collingswood, New Jersey. And what is keeping me optimistic right.
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B
Now is.
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A
Spending time with like minded members of my community. That's great. Also, I love. Hi, I'm Tia Pion Decker. I live in Reading, Pennsylvania. And what's keeping me optimistic right now are my kids.
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B
Hi, my name is Nicole Breslin. And what's keeping me optimistic right now is the next generation of students coming up. Hey, it's Sarah Grossman. And what's keeping me optimistic and motivated is my artwork. Grabbing vintage textiles and reclaimed remnants and just making it into something new in front of the tv at my sewing machine in my family room.
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A
That sounds great. That is good.
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B
Hi, I'm Cassidy. I live in Philly.
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C
I recently made a career change and.
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B
Started working with children. And children are naturally so kind and.
- [06:24]
A
Creative, and they've given me a whole new perspective, and it just makes me feel very hopeful. That was perfect. Nailed it. That'd be great. You want to go next year? I'm going to come over to you. Okay. Hi, my name's Grace.
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B
I'm from Ephraim. And what's keeping me optimistic right now is my daughter.
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A
Got to keep pushing to make the.
- [06:42]
B
World a better place for all those kids.
- [06:57]
A
My favorite part of the whole day was just being around everyone and getting to know members of our community and watching everyone become friends. Seriously, what an amazing day. And experiencing that day in the midst of seriously just horrible shit going on in the world right now, it rejuvenated me in so many ways. Like, it made me feel even more inspired, even more courageous, even more optimistic. And it was just a reminder of how just getting out there and being with the people in your community will. Will recharge you and keep you strong and help you keep the momentum going in whatever it is that you need to keep the momentum in. So I hope to do more things like this in the future. And in the meantime, don't forget that I'm going to Portland and Seattle for shows in less than a month. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, do do it now so I can stop worrying about it. And you can find those links in the show notes and everywhere I am on the Internet, but I'm just excited. See so many people in our community all at once and getting to know one another and me getting to know them, and I'm telling you, it is hard. I know sometimes when you are working a lot, when you have a lot of responsibilities, when your anxiety is really high or you don't feel well, or any. Any number of other reasons that keep you in your home. But getting out there and connecting with people in your community, really. And I say this as I'm 100% an introvert, believe it or not. It will really make you feel so much better than you can even imagine. And I feel like I've been coasting off of that energy all week. It's incredible. I mean, trust me, I have been trying everything this year to stay okay. Whether it's taking more vitamins, drinking more water, trying to sleep more. That part's not really working very well. But getting outside and working on other projects and reading more books and staying off Social media, all these things, but nothing was as effective as spending an afternoon with some really cool, like minded people. So that's my unsolicited advice for all of you. Get out there and connect with your community. Okay with all that, let's jump into my conversation with Mary and Gina and stay tuned after the interview to hear how you can win a copy of their book. All right, why don't you two introduce yourselves?
- [09:44]
B
All right, well, I'm Gina Wager I'm American. I'm currently living in Spain and on kind of a long term, indefinite sabbatical of sorts. And I spend a lot of time, kind of what fills my days is that I sort of, I'm dealing with Spanish bureaucracy, trying to figure out life in a foreign country. Even after two and a half years here, it's still a very different place. And I do a lot of just, I spend a lot of time outside, do a lot of sewing, a lot of mending, part of my day to day life. And yeah, right now dealing with a lot of book related activities.
- [10:32]
C
Hello, I'm Mary Morton. I am a sewing volunteer in Edinburgh, Scotland, uk. I volunteer with a zero waste charity called the Shrub Co Op. We run drop in garment repair sessions on a weekly basis, mostly for complete beginners, which is great fun. And as Gina says, we've both been very busy recently organizing book launch events because of having co authored Stitch It, Don't Ditch It Together.
- [11:10]
A
Right, so the two of you wrote a book together. One of you is an American in Spain, one of you is in Scotland. How did you end up writing a book about mending together?
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C
Should I take that one, Gina?
- [11:25]
B
Yep. So fortnight, right?
- [11:28]
C
What happened was here in Edinburgh, I was volunteering, as I said, with the Shrub Co Op. And I thought, well, that's all very well, that the message that I'm trying to get out about the climate and environmental impact of textiles and that we should all be learning to sew so that we can keep our clothes going longer. It was getting out to the people who were coming to the workshops, but the people who were coming to the workshops were people who were coming to the Zero Waste Hub because they had already got the climate message. So part of what I was trying to do was to get out and into, you know, the broader public and take the climate message to them as it relates to textiles. So I started a group which is called Edinburgh Street Stitchers. And it's, it was inspired by Susie Warden down in London who started the global street stitching movement. And when I found out about it. I thought, this sounds perfect. It's, you know, basically a load of people going out on the street with a camping chair and a banner on the back that says, stitch it, don't ditch it, and sewing in public. But here in Edinburgh, because a few of the people who had first joined me in this enterprise were also sewing volunteers, I thought, we'll do it slightly differently in Edinburgh and we will invite the public to bring their garments along and we will show them how to repair them on the street. So I started doing that and, well, we started doing that and it attracted a bit of attention. There had been a press release from one of the organizations that had provided funding to Shrub, which had been picked up by BBC Online. And one of the results of that was that I had received an email from Quadrille, which is part of Penguin Random House, to say, would I be interested in writing a book? And I thought to myself, I really would, because that would be another way of getting the message out. But I didn't want to do it on my own because at that stage I was a carer and was not therefore necessarily reliable. And I thought if, if, yeah, if I was doing it with somebody else, it would be, you know, better, more secure, more sustainable. There you go. And I was, you know, mulling over who could I possibly ask and happen to be listening to a podcast, which was. Oh, Zoe's podcast. Oh, yeah, name completely escapes me at the moment. Check your thread. Yes, of course. How could I forget? Check your thread. And Gina was talking about the decision making process when faced with a repair. How do you decide how you're going to mend? And I was sitting at home listening to it going, this girl really knows what she's talking about. And then I thought, could I send somebody that I follow on Instagram a message to say, would you like to co author a book? And it turns out you can.
- [14:50]
A
That's an important life lesson right there because I think many of us would have questioned it. But it worked out. And I actually, like, you know, just for the listeners listening to this, this is the first time I've heard this story. So this is amazing to me that it worked out. And it worked out so well.
- [15:07]
C
So well. So well. I was so lucky.
- [15:10]
A
So, Gina, you get a. You get an Instagram message asking you if you would like to co author a book. And you were like, oh, yeah, no big deal.
- [15:20]
B
Yeah, just like, totally cool. I mean, happens all the time, you know. No, I was, oh, it's, you know, my story kind of runs parallel to this, too, because I had done that interview with Zoe, and in our kind of conversations before and after our discussion, she's like, you know, Gina, you have a really interesting perspective on, like, how you approach mending. You should really write a book about this. And I was like, well, that's very flattering, but I. Here's all the reasons why I can't. But also, I've sort of been like, starting to write this book for, like, the past four years at that point. So I had, like, all this information, and I've written all these thoughts down for, like, maybe some time, you know, putting that out into the universe. And I don't think it was two months later that Mary messaged me and asked if I. If I would want to write Stitch It, Don't Ditch it with her.
- [16:20]
A
I mean, that's. It's amazing. It's, like, timing and so many things all at once. And I also love that it was Zoe who indirectly brought you together. So, you know, I'm sure people have asked you this already. You know, why a book about mending, specifically? I mean, obviously, it's like, I see now it's an area of passion for you, for both of you. But why did you feel like, this is the time, this is something I want to work on?
- [16:50]
C
I think for me, it was just purely because the opportunity arose.
- [16:54]
A
Right.
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C
I'm retired from my previous life, which had absolutely nothing to do with either sewing or writing books. So it was quite bizarre, really, for me.
- [17:08]
A
I mean, I love that. Actually, I think something I've been thinking about the past couple years is how we have all these different periods of our lives that can be profoundly different than what came before, and that there's never a point in your life where suddenly surprises or interesting things need to end, you know? So I love that this was just this new thing that you're doing.
- [17:35]
B
Well. And I mean, for me, I've always. I've always loved books. I've always loved reading. And again, my previous career, my previous life before I moved to Spain, was not related to anything like this. I mean, I taught workshops and was pretty active, like, in kind of trying to start building a mending community where I lived in the U.S. of course, that was kind of right between, like, right at the beginning of the lockdown and during lockdown of the COVID pandemic. So a lot of that was kind of challenging before we moved over here. But, yeah, I knew that there was interest. I'd kind of been in the mending world. I guess 2014 is sort of when I really started like actively only buying secondhand clothes and not being really careful about, thinking a lot more consciously about like how I took care of my clothes and stuff. And so I've been spending, seeing this movement sort of shift and this interest and awareness sort of shift towards the idea that like bending is something you can do. And it's a really like, for me it's a really concrete, like simple action that pretty much anyone can do to like feel like you are actually accomplishing something. And that seems like quite a feat these days when everything is just so much. So I think that, I mean for me it was always kind of a dream to share more information about mending and then yeah, this opportunity to write a book was sort of presented. So it's like certainly not going to say no.
- [19:24]
A
I mean, I think you're onto something there. Gina, though, that like it is really hard. I don't know what I'm going to say is going to sound very depressing and I don't mean it to sound as grim as it does, but so many things that we do in our day to day life right now are fundamentally kind of dissatisfying like you know, scrolling social media, right. Or maybe our jobs aren't really doing much for us. Or even, you know, shopping where people go to find joy. Often what you end up buying is sort of disappointing, right? And it is true that making things like I, for example, I love cooking dinner every night because you get a satisfaction out of it and it's kind of immediate, right? You put in some time, some work, some creativity and then you get to eat some food. It doesn't always work out, but most of the time it does. And I feel like mending is so similar, you know. Yes, of course, sewing as a whole can also be this very satisfying project, right. Like and you take your time, you invest it and you get a thing out of it that is uniquely yours, but that's a much bigger project. Whereas to me mending in most cases is, I don't know, it's similar to cooking dinner where you could get it done in one sitting and have this feeling of satisfaction that you might not get from anything else you've done that day.
- [20:44]
C
Yeah, I think I definitely feel that as well that you know, and it's not just the satisfaction of doing the mend, it's also then the satisfaction of wearing the mend. Whether it's visible or not visible, you know, it's there, you know you've done a good thing, you know that you're still wearing the item of clothing that you would otherwise not have been wearing. So I think in terms of, you know, addressing the kind of climate anxiety, I think it's really, really good for that because it's, you know, the process of doing the repair can be quite meditative, but then also the, the wearing of the repair, it's enriching.
- [21:29]
A
It really is. And I like what you're saying, Mary. Like if you have a lot of anxiety about the climate, for example, this is one way that you can take an action that actually is impactful towards that. And I think it can alleviate that sense of doom and despair. And I think for a lot of people, how they're coping, which I use coping in quotes at this point with their climate anxiety is they're just doom scrolling. Right. And maybe sharing other people's posts. But what does that really, what does that really do, you know, like, it only I think exacerbates your anxiety about it. But if you're actually doing something concrete, which obviously can take a lot of forms. Right. You can be a straight up activist out there like protesting and lobbying and campaigning and whatnot, but you could also just buy less new clothing and repair the clothes that you have and do it from the privacy of your own home.
- [22:28]
B
Yeah. And I think, you know, a really good point that you bring up with that, Amanda, is like you're doing something with your hands, you're doing something concrete and you, it's really hard to also be like engaged with social media or just all of the stuff that's going on in the world that can cause that anxiety. I mean, we're talking about like climate issues. But also I would add to the concern that people have is certainly like garment workers rights and human rights and just sort of the whole ecological and social aspect of like the fashion industry. You know, it's. Mending is just, yeah, it's a simple little thing that you can, you can do or you can disconnect from everything else. And I mean, there's actually, there's quite a lot of research out there showing benefits of not necessarily mending. Yet that research isn't out there, but there's other research that shows benefits of embroidery or knitting as being used in therapeutic applications with people either in institutions or as part of mental health treatment, rehab programs, community art. So there really is something to this, like actually just doing something with your hands and your brain at the same time. And also bonus points for not like creating yet another whole new thing that you then have to like manage and maintain and find space for in your home.
- [24:05]
C
I think one of the other things with mending that isn't necessarily immediately apparent is that it's actually a very creative thing to do.
- [24:14]
A
Yes.
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C
Because when you're faced with the damage, there's lots of different ways that you can mend it. Lots and lots of different ways. And that decision making process and creativity and, you know, using what you have to hand is very enriching as well.
- [24:31]
A
Oh, it's so good for your brain. I always feel that the best creative output comes when you have, I don't know, challenges in terms of materials or what you're starting with. Right. Because it forces your brain to solve all of these problems all at once. And there's so much. Yes. And it's just so good. And I do, I do agree that, like, I mean, just my own firsthand experience, that sewing, knitting, embroidery, mending, of course, are so good for your mental health. When my partner died, I did two things. One, well, I mean, three things. I cried all the time. But I also learned how to embroider and spent hours and hours embroidering. And it was so meditative and calming. And then I said, oh, okay, well, I'm ready for the next challenge. And I taught myself how to knit from a book. And that was even just like, better, like the challenge of that. And then like sitting there and seeing it unfold with my hands, just so good for my mental health. Which brings me, oddly, this is a transition into my next question, which is I learned how to knit from a book. I learned how to embroider from a book. I learned most of what I know about sewing from a book. So to me, I am the core audience for someone who's going to buy a book about mending because I can learn from a book. And I would just say I prefer to learn from a book versus a video. But I know that we live in the era of YouTube tutorials and online courses you can take that are streaming where you'll learn how to do these things. And certainly my husband and I have solved plumbing problems in our house via YouTube videos. But I think learning from a book is a very viable format. But did you find that teaching people how to mend via a book was challenging? And if so, how did you, I don't know, adjust your teaching to make it work?
- [26:24]
B
A little bit of this has yet to be seen with how grandly successful we are in teaching people. Fair, fair. Just not coming out. But both Mary and I do have experience with teaching in person. Teaching brand new Sewists, how to sew. And then my background professionally, I worked with people with various different types of learning disabilities, learning differences and health issues that impacted how they were able to learn. So I did kind of bring that sort of lens into, into the, like, my approach to writing this book. And, and I also think that in terms of like, why a book and instead of a online sort of content, if you were brand new to mending your stuff and you just type into some search engine how to repair my pants, where do you even go next from that?
- [27:37]
A
Right? Overwhelming.
- [27:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. And then you see all this beautiful visible stuff and maybe you don't want that. And you know, so I. The way that we approached this book was to kind of give people like the background knowledge that they need to like, know the different parts of a garment, what, you know, what's the seam versus the hem and the, so they can kind of be armed with this like basic knowledge. Additionally, we talk about in the book about like fiber content and fiber, fiber construction because repair my pants, if they're jeans, that's going to look a lot different than if they're leggings. Right. So the approach, the materials you'd use to mend and the technique that you would use are totally different things. And I think for people who are just getting started or who don't have a lot of background, you know, the Internet is great, but it can kind of be a black hole if you don't, if you don't know where to start. So yeah, we wanted to just really arm people with like the basic, basic knowledge are good, solid foundational knowledge that maybe they do choose to supplement with online resources that are more advanced or that are more specific. So I don't think that our book is the end all, be all of mending information, but I think we really, really, really hope that it's like a good foundation for people to like build off of with other resources that are out there, you know, depending on their learning preferences and learning styles.
- [29:13]
C
Well, and I think also in my previous career, one of the things that I was involved in doing was writing very clear instructions for health professionals to use medicines. So this, this idea of making things, you know, I was going to say completely idiot proof, but you know, very easy, very easy to follow. Yeah, but have everything, you know, have all of the information that you needed so that you could just go step by step by step. So hopefully we have managed that with this. And as Gina says, the proof will be in the next few weeks when we start getting feedback from people who are actually using it. So, yeah, exciting.
- [29:57]
A
I mean, I'm excited for you. I totally agree that if you decide you're going to try mending and you do an Internet search right now, the results are overwhelming and often kind of a little discouraging because of course, the things that it brings up most are the most elaborate, beautiful, visible men's done by someone with years of experience. And then you're like, oh, well, I will never do that. So I guess I'll just throw this out, you know. So I like. I said I like the idea of a book. I have a whole library of sewing and like handicraft books that I have learned from over the years. And I know that there is quite an audience of people out there who would prefer to learn these skills from a book that they can refer to time and time again.
- [30:42]
B
You're talking about just like the beautiful examples that exist on the Internet. And our book is actually fully illustrated. There's no photos of mends in there. And Mary, I think that you probably feel the same way too, because we talked about this a lot as we were deciding on the design is we really, really, really wanted example men's in there. We really wanted pictures of, with like all the different ways that your men's could look. But actually I think that. I kind of think that it's almost better that there's just these very. There's like the illustrations in the book are beautiful, but they are not what your repair is going to look like because they're technical illustrations. And then there's just really nice like abstract illustrations too. So I think that that's kind of a benefit too. When people are looking at it, they're not maybe necessarily going to have that same type of compari to this picture of a beautiful sweater. Darn that. They're just not. They're not at that level yet.
- [31:52]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a bit like going to the Louvre, right, And seeing a painting and being like, okay, well I'm gonna go home and paint right now. And then the pressure's on that it needs to look as good as that could happen, but probably won't. Right. Those are like, you know, the results of years and years and years of. Of work and practice and.
- [32:14]
C
And we are absolutely aiming at the people who want to learn the very basics and are really just beginning and, you know, can't thread a needle and. And don't know how to secure their thread. Those are the people that we're hoping to help because, you know, if they can overcome that small initial step, then it gives them such a range of tasks that they can then attempt.
- [32:47]
B
I will say that it's not only a book for beginners, though. I do think that we have a lot of really valuable content in terms of the decision making process for how to approach repairs. So I think that there's, there's. Even if, you know, if you do have some experience with sewing or hand sewing or mending, I do think that there's, there's valuable information.
- [33:06]
C
Yeah.
- [33:06]
B
That you know, that any, any people who are interested in repairing their clothes could take away from it.
- [33:12]
A
Oh, absolutely. And I think even if you're an experienced sewer, repair is a totally different process. And sometimes the hardest part about mending is knowing where, which sort of technique or how to go about doing the repair. Right. Because it's not as simple as just like sewing it up per se in all situations. And I mean, I don't know if you have these in the uk, Mary, but certainly I have fallen prey to here in the United States. I'm sure you have seen these too, Gina, or heard about them or had your own bad experiences. These, those horrible iron on patches that you can get. Well rip at, Joann. Right.
- [33:50]
C
Which actually funny that you say that somebody had one of those, well, two of those stuck on their crotch repair. Oh, it's always last night. And we had to rip them off to.
- [34:01]
A
Yeah.
- [34:02]
C
They replace it with something sensible.
- [34:04]
A
They always make it worse. Right. And you know, I mean, I'm so curious to hear from you, Mary, like how sewing education is approached in the uk because here in the United States, unless someone in your family has been teaching you or you have made a concerted effort to learn how to sew, most Americans do not know how to sew anymore. And so should they dare to think they might try to patch something, they fall for those iron on patches. The only reason this is my belief those iron on patches only exist because people buy them one time, it's an abject failure and they never come back. So they rely on these people who've never used, used them before to buy them.
- [34:48]
C
Yeah. But certainly in the UK it seems to me that, you know, that sewing skills are not taught to the same degree that they used to be. There may be some schools where there's still some, you know, education around sewing in, you know, in the mainstream, but it certainly isn't, it's certainly not universal. And many people, I think, get nothing at all.
- [35:18]
A
Yeah. At the same time, what I'm noticing right now, and I'm very excited about is that I think we have reached a turning point just sort of globally, where we recognize that we need to know more about how our clothes are made. We need to know how to care for them, and that includes learning how to repair them ourselves. And I see such a surge in the interest in. Interest in learning how to mend. Why do you think mending is becoming more important than ever?
- [35:53]
C
Because it's climate. That was the motivation for me to get involved in all of this. I kind of assume that it's because.
- [36:05]
A
The.
- [36:07]
C
You know, the climate crisis is pretty much in everybody's face now where it wasn't before. I don't think everybody would necessarily still recognize that textiles have a big impact in terms of climate, but I think for some people, that's definitely what's motivating them.
- [36:32]
A
Yeah, I can agree with that. What about you, Gina? What are your thoughts there?
- [36:36]
B
I think that that's certainly. Certainly a big part of it, but I also think that just kind of the time that we're in right now where, like, the cost of living crisis in the US where just, like, everything is just getting harder and more expensive and, like, the quality of stuff is going down. I mean, you know, Amanda, you talked a lot about just, like, the deteriorating quality of clothing and sort of everything else. And I think that, like, repairing stuff is just a little bit of a way to kind of, like, give a middle finger to, you know, the billionaires out there and the, like, just the system. I mean, it's repair. You know, you hear always everywhere. Repair is a rep. Radical act. Repair is political. Repair is like. It's a way to kind of take some agency and take initiative. And whatever your motivation is, whether it's just like, I really like this shirt and I'm mad that the seam blew out on it, or I have, like, really want to do something concrete to, like, reduce clothing waste, to just have some nice space in my brain for a few minutes. I kind of think that all. I think all of that is coming together to kind of be this perfect storm.
- [38:00]
C
I think there was a piece of research that I shared with you recently, Gina, and that was done with young people. I think the 16 age group and the main motivator in that age group in that small study was workers rights. You know, like, if you can buy a T shirt for a fiver, somebody has been exploited in its manufacture.
- [38:26]
A
Yeah.
- [38:27]
C
And I think increasingly young people are.
- [38:30]
A
Aware of that, which makes me so happy because, I mean, I am definitely part of that fast fashion generation. Like, we as young adults were sold a lot of really cheap clothing and there were really fast fashion trends, and it became a way of life. And then it kind of just spread to everybody. And it has ultimately that way of life, that way of running a business, of manufacturing, of it's become the way everything is done, whether it is something textile based or, you know, a laptop. And it just. I do think that, Gina, you're so right. That, like, there's this strange feeling that, like a satisfying feeling of sort of taking control that you get when you fix something. And you do feel like you're kind of giving the middle finger to these billionaires who profit from all of the things that you're talking about, from the impact on the climate, to treating workers horribly, to creating and selling us really low quality product that requires us to mend sometimes awfully early in the life cycle of that item. Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about, like the title. Stitch It, Don't Ditch it. I mean, I know that this is part of the work where you are doing, Mary, but why did you decide on that title?
- [39:56]
C
It wasn't us, it was the publishers. I think that was part of what had attracted them to get in touch in the first place. So, you know, when we had asked them, you know, are your kind of wedded to this as a title? They had pretty much said, yeah, we think we are. So. And it's the slogan that Susie Warren had been using for the street stitching.
- [40:22]
A
So, yeah, makes sense.
- [40:24]
B
And it is also the controversial slogan that Scout mentioned in your conversation with them, Amanda, a few episodes back, a few months back. And I had also been following along with that at the time. And when Mary approached me about this book, one of the first questions that I had for her was, is this going to be the title of the book? And when we met with the publishers, the answer was yes. And so I kind of thought, okay, well, it sounds like this book is going to be written with this title. And so Mary and I really kind of made an effort to do our due diligence and give sort of credit where credit is due in terms of the different kind of people that were using that hashtag initially.
- [41:22]
C
I think also there was very much in the way of shared values that, you know, when we had reached out and the response, you know, I had said, you know, I teach sewing skills. You know, we're actually, we're encouraging people to learn how to do it for themselves. And that's really the, you know, the whole reason that we're doing this at all. And you know, the values of the zero waste charity that I work with and the inclusivity and, you know, trying to make sure that everybody is included in, you know, being able to access the, the sewing sessions that we do is very important to us. And because that was all clear in the website of the charity that I volunteer with, they, there wasn't really a problem because we had the same shared values. We were doing this for the same reasons, which is to get more people mending.
- [42:41]
A
That's great. I mean, I think, I mean, I could talk about. That's a whole episode in itself, these sort of need for more collaboration and sort of like cooperation in these movies. Absolutely.
- [42:53]
C
We can only do this together and you know, we have, we have to just work together and use. Because that's the other great thing that, you know, like when I, I work with our sewing sessions, there's a half a dozen or so of us that are the sewing volunteers and we all have our different skills, you know, so, you know, if, if it's something that needs darning, oh, you better speak to this one. Or if it's something that requires some embroidery. Oh, that one. And so I wrote to sewing machine once somebody else. So, you know, everybody does have their own kind of niche.
- [43:32]
A
I mean, I think that's a good call out too because I think we feel this pressure to be an expert in all things and that maybe sometimes you start by getting to know one kind of mending format, if you will, better than the others at first. And over time you can build those skills and, and it's okay to have your area of expertise in one specific type of mending because there is this whole community of other people out there who would love to share what they know with you.
- [44:01]
C
Yeah, none of us have to be perfect. Yeah, we just have to. We just have to fix it so that we can wear it.
- [44:07]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [44:09]
B
And if you consider that like just about every single person on this planet is wearing clothes right now, like, no one's going to run out of business. No one's gonna run out of like, because someone else is also, you know, teaching mending, for example. There is just so an endless, endless, endless, like, source of opportunities to share knowledge and to learn. And so I, and I think like, you know, in terms of this book, I mean, it's kind of a good example, like an experiential example for me now is like, I know that this book is, is better because Mary and I wrote it together than it would have been had I tried to take it out on my own. It's. Yeah, you know, it was just so nice to work with someone else and share ideas and say, like, gosh, I don't really know as much about this. Like, do you want to take on this section? What are your thoughts on this? I had never even considered that. So, yeah, it's definitely a case of, like, the rising tide sort of raises all the ships when we, like, collaborate and share.
- [45:18]
A
Totally. I mean, this is something I have been reflecting on quite a bit lately because even just in the world of, you know, what I do, sharing information and talking to people about sustainability and fast fashion and whatnot, all of these topics, there is this sense of sort of, like, competition within that, that we really need to just stop. I understand why it's there because there is sort of a scarcity of resources for people doing this work. Meaning. And when I say resources, I mean the ability to be paid for this work. Right, Right. And it's a largely a lot of the education around mending, thrifting, you know, the fashion industry as a whole, a lot of that is being done on a voluntary basis. And I think that that can create this sense of competition that we. I don't know, this is about to get really deep, but I feel like capitalism sort of encourages us to be really competitive with one another and fight for resources. Right. And I think that honestly, like, maybe one of the most revolutionary things we can do is, like, ignore that and just work together. And there's plenty of space. Like, even if everybody who is talking about mending right now wrote a book and it got into the hands of people, it is most likely not enough people out there teaching mending, like, still, you know, or any of the other things that we're talking about, because there are a lot of people on this planet, and as you pointed out, Gina, most of them are probably wearing clothes. And so we have our work cut out for us and we need a lot of people involved.
- [46:53]
B
Yeah. And everyone's going to have a different, like, angle that they respond to in terms of how they want to learn, how they want to consume their information, how they want to access these resources. So, yeah, there's not a one size fits all and. And there's no shortage of opportunities for sharing the information. But like you said, Amanda, in this sort of scarcity world of scarcity that we live in and like, under capitalism, it does feel like every new post that you see that has an idea that was similar to something you've thought about, but then you haven't, like, actually done yet. It's just like, okay, well that's done. You know, they've. Now I can't. Now I can't do that. And it's not, I don't think it's true. I think that there's, you know, there's just so many ways that people can find and access information. Yeah.
- [47:44]
C
And I think one of the things that becomes clear when you're teaching people, you know, hand sewing skills or even machine sewing skills, that there is always going to be a role for the professional. And one of the things when you're teaching people that they start to understand is now I see why it costs so much to get this repaired professionally because it takes ages and it's quite hard.
- [48:12]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:14]
C
You know, so it actually in, in many respects may be more likely to generate more people looking for people to do the paid work because they understand that it's worth it.
- [48:30]
A
Totally. I mean, I work all the time, so I don't have a lot of time to do repairs. And anything that is going to take more than 30 minutes, I pay someone to do. For example, I tried one time to replace a zipper and dress. I'll never do that again. It was horrible. I practically ruined the dress. I think it made me walk lopsided for a day. And so I had to take that in, have it completely redone. And now I just, just drop it off when it needs a new zipper. And honestly, there is such a high level of satisfaction even to doing that and being able to tell someone the next time I'm wearing it and they compliment it, I can say, oh, thanks, I just got it back from having the zipper repaired. Here's a place where you can get that done. And I'll tell you, nine times out of 10, when I say something like that to someone, they're like, wait, you can get zippers replaced? They had no idea.
- [49:19]
C
Yeah.
- [49:20]
A
And it inspires them to do the same. Take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep Clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support. Slow Fashion Academy is a size inclusive sewing and pattern making studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Designer and fashion professor Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of making, mending and altering their own clothes several times per year. Ruby offers her flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can also use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours. Or compare your slipper to commercial patterns to see where you might need to alter the shape. No more guessing at full bust, flat seam or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional design and pattern making services to emerging slow fashion brands and occasionally takes commissions for custom garments and costume pieces. She has also released several PDF sewing patterns for original designs under her brands Spokes and Stitches and Starling Petite Plus. I just want to also add here on a personal note that right now Ruby is actually working with me to create a one of a kind unique to me special dress that I will be wearing for all future clotheshorse events including live episodes later this year in the Pacific Northwest. I am so excited to work with Ruby because she is so talented and so knowledgeable about all things clothing creation. Check out the schedule for upcoming workshops, download PDF sewing patterns and learn about additional sewing and Design Services at www.slowfashion.academy. and it's important for me to tell you that that's slowfashion.academy Selena Sanders A social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum style minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover more@shiftwheeler.com late to the party creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage, salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold. Floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram latetothepartypeople Vino Vintage based just outside of la. We love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on Instagram Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Page is for those who never stop stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us out@dylanpage.com and find us on Instagram ylanpage lifeandstyle Salt hats purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram althats Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace. Located in the historic Eastern Market, our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online store@thumbprintdetroit.com and find us on Instagramprintdetroit. Vagavan Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale markets in San Francisco as well as at a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL location located in the Arts District of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram at Vagabond Vintage DTLV and keep an eye out for their website coming fall of 2022. Okay, so let's talk about mending a little bit more. Like, to me, it feels like a no brainer. I mean, it would come to no surprise to anyone listening to clotheshorse that many, many textiles and clothing end up in landfills every year long before they're truly worn out. But I'll tell you, I read a study a few years ago that haunts me, which was basically like the majority of people surveyed would rather throw out a shirt than replace a lost button. And it, like I said, keeps me awake at night because I think that replacing a button in most cases is the easiest repair job. To me, it feels very natural that you would fix a hole or replace a button, replace a zipper just like you would, you know, repair a flat tire or get your stove fixed. Why do you think we have such a different relationship with clothing where we might and when I say we, I don't mean the Three of us, because obviously we're of a different mindset. But we generally, humans generally right now in 2025 would say, oh, I lost a button, I'm gonna throw that shirt out.
- [56:11]
C
I mean, I think from my point of view, you know, I grew up seeing repair. My grandmother did a lot of repair. So it's normal from my point of view for clothing to be repaired. But I think people, I think there's definitely been a kind of gap of a generation in a lot of families where the skills have just, you know, disappeared and it isn't the normal thing for people to do. And I think the other huge thing that has changed is the difference between the cost of the clothes and the amount of money that people have. You know, used to be the clothes were quite expensive, so you only had a few and you looked after them because they had to last you. And then that all changed and there was just huge amounts of clothing that were really, really cheap, so people didn't value them as much. Whereas, you know, previously, throughout history, clothing has been something that has been very valued.
- [57:15]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that's so right. Clothing is so cheap right now. And I'll tell you, every time I say that, people will be like, well, what about this? This is expensive. And I'm like, not relatively. Like I remember the clothes I had as a teenager, I did not have very much clothing because it was expensive in relation to like what I was paid at my part time job after school or even with the money that my family had. And we fixed things all the time. But you're right, it just sort of ended one day because maybe if your shirt gets a hole, you could just go get another one for $10. You know, when people put a dollar amount on their time, they might say, well, I am paid $20 an hour. I could spend an hour repairing this shirt, or I could get another one for $10 and I'm coming out ahead. Never mind that when you think that way, you're also saying, oh, but whoever made this shirt, it's totally fine that they got paid significantly less for their time.
- [58:08]
C
And I think one of the other things that I've certainly noticed is that I no longer think about cost and value as purely monetary. Since kind of waking up to the whole climate crisis and ecological crisis. I think about products completely differently. I think much more in terms of their material worth and how they fit into the, you know, the grand scheme of things.
- [58:37]
B
Yeah. And I think that what you were both saying earlier about kind of past generations or even just Past decades, really, where, like, repair was, it was much more common, whether you grew up in a household where people repaired things, which I did. I mean, we grew up. And I grew up in rural Alaska, so everything was fixed. It was very hard to get new things, and it was very expensive to get new things. And, like, that has shifted so much so fast. And I think that, you know, even if. Even if people were exposed to the idea of repairing clothes, furniture, whatever, now it's just gotten to the point where everyone's so busy and things are so much cheaper and so easy, so easy to get. Get something new. And so I think that people who had that mindset perhaps before maybe have kind of shifted away from it, because, quite frankly, everything is very busy. It's, you know, everyone's very busy, and it's easier to just get something new. But I also think there are people, and I've known these people, and I don't blame them at all for this, but there are people who just have never really been around this idea that things can be repaired or that things can be fixed. You just didn't even know how to go about it. And I have this. I mean, definitely, like, a lot of my roommates that I lived with in college were kind of grew up in very different situations than I did. And so that was sort of my first, like, exposure to, like, oh, there's other people out here who just haven't, like, thought about fixing things or, like, I guess you just have to get a new washing machine because the bra strap is stuck around the spindle in the washing machine. I was like, well, no, actually, like, there's a way we can get that out of there. You know, I don't. I know that, like, no matter. There's all sorts of different backgrounds that kind of people. People come from. And there's a lot of different sort of economic and time situations that people are in, too. So I can understand where people are coming from if they just think, like, yeah, it's a lot easier to just replace this. But I think if you push back on that, not even too much, it's like, yeah, you could work for half an hour to fix that, or you could, like, not work that time and relax and shut your brain off a little bit and do a little bit of sewing and get some, like, much deeper satisfaction. And I bet that in most cases, a lot of people will get more satisfaction out of 30 minutes spent repairing something than at 30 minutes spent working, potentially.
- [61:31]
A
Yeah, I think that's so true. I mean, and you do you do touch on my next question here, which, like, is, what are the barriers that prevent people from mending their clothing? I mean, I think one you point out there. Well, you point out to there, Gina. One is that, like, for some people, it's just never even occurred to them. I mean, I definitely, while I specifically do not understand that, because that's not the environment I grew up in. When I went to college and was exposed to different kinds of people, even living in my dorm, many of them didn't know how to do their laundry, which was shocking to me. Right. But if people don't know how to do their laundry, they definitely don't know how to mend their clothing. Right.
- [62:11]
C
You two are making me feel very old.
- [62:14]
A
It made me feel old. I was like, I feel like I am a hundred years old because I know how to use a washing machine. It was the wildest stuff, Mary. I would see people dump in half a bottle of detergent, then mix up all their clothes and put it on hot water because they thought that would wash it the best. I know. And then be sad when everything came out just destroyed. And I was like, shrunken.
- [62:34]
B
Pink.
- [62:36]
A
Exactly. Shrunk and pink. Yeah. I feel like there was a few week period where everybody was really adjusting to washing their clothing and learning lessons the hard way and looking a little strange in the dining hall. But, you know, like, that was shocking to me because I did my laundry growing up. I did my whole family's laundry. And it seemed like in most families I grew up around, that was. That was happening. Right. You also touched on something, Gina, that I think is really important, which is just like, man, everybody I know is working multiple jobs or working one job that eats up their entire life. Yeah. And then they have kids or family members they care for, other things they do. There's errands to run and, you know, bills to pay. And it's really. I have just found for myself, whether it is repairing something or even just sitting down to read a book, I kind of have to, like, make an appointment with myself and stick to it.
- [63:30]
B
Well, I think that maybe a good way to approach. If someone is thinking about getting into mending or starting this out or trying to get back into it, set the bar really, really low for yourself. Just the next time you see a wobbly button, sew that back on. Like, start there. You don't have to, like, be repairing. Maybe you have a whole laundry basket full of. Of kids clothes that have blown out knees. Don't think you're gonna, like, start your Mending journey right now by taking all that on this weekend. Just start super small. Start with a little seam that's opened up. Start with a button that's sewn on. And I mean, even with those two skills, just sewing on buttons and like a backstitch to close up a seam, you can probably keep a lot of your clothes going with, like, pretty minimal time investment. I also think that. That sometimes I know it's hard to, like, shift gears and when we're so tired at like, the end of the day or whenever our moments of breaks are, it's really so automatic to, like, reach for phones or devices or screens. But I bet that most of us have 10 or 15 minutes somewhere in a day where we're scrolling where maybe we could, like, do something else.
- [64:51]
C
Was it you, Gina, that had said that one of the ways to make things easier for yourself is to. To set out all of the stuff, you know, so that if you're going to patch, you know, the kids leggings, get the patch fabric, get the needles and threads, scissors, and put it all in a wee basket beside the sofa or something. And then the next time you sit down, you'll be able to go, oh, I can just do that, and everything's to hand. Was it you that said that, Gina? I think it was.
- [65:20]
B
That was me that said that. That is one of my winter care and repair tips. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of breaking down rather than thinking, okay, I'm gonna sit down and repair this thing. Wait a minute, where's the sewing kit? Okay, I don't have the right color thread. Like, just maybe the task that you take on tonight is just find a needle and thread and that's all. And then, you know, the next day you. Or the next time that you have a few moments, like, but just break it down, down into really small little increments. Try to keep things handy, you know, like, have. Know where your sewing stuff is. And again, maybe that's just the first step is just like today, I'm just going to figure out where the sewing stuff is. And then I. I would also say that probably most of us invest some sort of time and money into other hobbies, right? Whether that's like video games, whether that's sports, whether that's like another type of creative hobby. We're probably investing a little bit of money and a little bit of that. And I think that, I know mending kind of sounds like a chore, and it sounds like this task, but like we were talking about earlier, it can be really creative and it doesn't have to be creative in the aspect of just like embroidering some beautiful design to cover up a stain or on a patch. It can be creative more in like that problem solving kind of solution generating way of creativity.
- [66:51]
A
Yeah.
- [66:53]
B
And you know, you get to think about like, what do I want this repair to look like? Do I want it to be visible? Do I want it to be invisible? Do I want like, what technique am I going to use? Like, do I want it to be a patch or a darn. And our wonderful book will kind of walk you through all of this, this decision making process, but because you don't really know where to start when you're just starting. But it can be very creative just in the decision making process too. So particularly kind of after once you've sort of gotten some skills developed.
- [67:32]
C
Yeah, Much, much more satisfying than sitting doing a crossword.
- [67:36]
A
And crosswords are pretty satisfying. I mean, way more satisfying than scrolling Instagram if we were going to put these in a hierarchy. But I do think like, Gina, you have such a good point that like, like sometimes it pains me to think about how much time I've wasted on my phone in a day when you really take a step back and you're like, did I just lose 30 minutes of my life just now? It, it went by in a second. And talking about things being sort of dissatisfying, that is, that is a great example. So I do, I do think that this is one of like, mending is one of those things that seems like a chore but is actually like a rewarding project and sort of like way to lose yourself in something else. And I would say it's not dissimilar to gardening because growing your own food is laborious. Like I am in the midst of that right now. There's the weeding in the beginning of the season. There's all of the mulching and the, you know, cleaning out the garden from the month before and hauling around bags of stuff and raking things and whatnot. And then now I get to go outside and just like pick vegetables that I grew like every day. And it is so satisfying. But it is a, it is a bit of a chore, but it's a chore that is also rewarding.
- [68:55]
B
It kind of gives back to you as well.
- [68:58]
A
Yes.
- [68:58]
B
You know, it's not, not so much a chore, like cleaning the bathroom, for example, where it just like gets dirty again and you're doing the same, you're doing the same cleaning in a loose all the time. I actually, you know, mending is. It's always evolving. It's always like. I think that I totally agree with you, Amanda, that it's very much like gardening. And I make this comparison a lot, too. It's that, like, you're not ever going to be done with mending a garment. You're going to finish that repair, but the more you wear it, it's going to wear out again, and it's going to wear out in a little bit different place. So it is like kind of committing to a garden or really committing to, like, taking good care of your clothes. You're not going to fix it. And then you're like, okay, there we go. Now we're done with that. It's like, you can't just plant the seeds in your garden and then, like, brush off your hands and, you know, carry on. It's kind of this constant evolving sort of commitment relationship that you have with your garments, in this case, that I think really can kind of give back to you. I mean, one, just by allowing you to wear your clothes longer, which is pretty satisfying. But it also sort of frees you from this mentality of, like, okay, I need something new, I need something new, I need something new. It kind of revives the clothes that you have, too, because they can look a little bit different, or you've invested your time and your energy into it. Now you kind of have this, like, stronger bond. Even if it's just a cheap garment that maybe wasn't really worth that much to you monetarily initially, but once you invest your time in it, it does become more.
- [70:43]
A
Well, and that's a great transition to my next question right now. People are recognizing that a lot of the clothes that they're buying are low quality. Right. But they're still buying them. It's strange. And they. Sometimes the pushback I will get on mending fast fashion as a whole is, well, it's not that great of quality to begin with, so why would I bother repairing it? At the same time, the person who says that to me spent the money to buy those clothes. So there was a value there at some point. Do you think that there are, like, it's worth. It's worth repairing fast fashion? Is there anything you think is not worth repairing?
- [71:28]
C
I think from my point of view, one of the things that happened with me was I saw a fast fashion garment in the charity shop for the Zero Waste charity that I worked with.
- [71:42]
B
And.
- [71:44]
C
Instead of looking at it and thinking, oh, that's a horrible piece of fast fashion, I was Looking at it, thinking that textile, it was viscous. So I have now got a bit more understanding of what goes into making the textile and the pollution and the people's labor and, you know, the potential for horrible conditions that people have been under. And the idea that it was on the, the half price rail in the charity shop because it wasn't going to sell. Well, it potentially wasn't going to sell. And I thought, I don't want that. You know, it didn't look as if being worn much. I don't want that to go to waste and have all of those resources in terms of time and effort and pollution and climate impact. I don't want all of that just to go to waste.
- [72:35]
A
Right.
- [72:37]
C
It was a dress that was, you know, a kind of shirt dress that was kind of mini, which is obviously not for me, but I cut it down and made it into a blouse and four hankies. So, you know, it was definitely worth it to me to invest that effort. And it's not a repair as such, but it was a kind of reimagining because I wasn't just, I wasn't looking at it from the point of view of money. I think money is the wrong, the wrong lens to be looking at products through that once we start looking at them and understanding how they came to be there, it changes how you know how you value them.
- [73:25]
A
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that that is a really valid point that like we need to, to stop thinking about the value of an article of clothing or really anything we buy just on the basis of the price because we know that these prices are an illusion for many different reasons. But the value of it really comes from the resources involved in creating that. And sometimes, interestingly enough, the cheapest sort of lowest quality fast fashion that we buy require the most resources to create. I'm thinking about like things that are polyester or you touched on viscose. Same thing. These are very inexpensive fabrics that fast fashion really leans into at this point. But the actual, the, the non monetary price of making those fabrics. Yeah, yeah, it's really, really high. And I mean that alone. When you say it out loud, it points to the sort of the break in the system. Right. That something that is so impactful on workers and the planet and our resources would be the cheapest material right there is. Like that's, that's the. Right, that's the problem. Right. And so I often think, like when I'm thrifting, for example, I try not to look at the labels on clothes. I just pick them Up. And I'm like, oh, I like this. I would wear it. I'll look at the fabric content, maybe, but I'm not going to look at the brand label to make a decision, because I think sometimes we see that label and we're like, oh, that's just a cheap brand, worth it. Or, you know, like, I'm not gonna try to get the stain out of this, because this is like a $10 dress to begin with. And it's sort of like you need to just take the dollars or I guess the pounds and the euros out of it and just think about the value to you, you know?
- [75:16]
C
And I think another thing that happens, you know, if you are a sewer, and when you start going into charity shops or thrift stores and you're looking at garments, you're actually not looking at garments. You're looking at textiles.
- [75:30]
A
Yeah.
- [75:31]
C
You're thinking, what. What can I do with that? You know, you're not even limited by. By what the thing is at the moment, you're. You're starting to think about what. What could it be?
- [75:44]
A
I mean, true. So true.
- [75:46]
C
When you see something that you really like, the textile, then that kind of generates the, you know, the creative process to then go, right, what am I going to do with this?
- [75:58]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, like, you know, here it is, this 2025, like, upcycling certain textiles has been a trend for several years now and is normalized. You know, sheets and tea towels and regular terry towels and really any sort of like. Like larger home fabrics, like pieces being upcycled into apparel. We are like, yeah, that's. That's totally normal. But I have to remind everyone that, you know, five years ago, that was wild to someone, that you would take a sheet, a bed sheet from the thrift store and turn it into a dress. Well, now, none of us would think twice about that. A lot of my curtains are actually made from sheets. I think they're great for. If you want, like, a really cute print of a curtain, make them out of old sheets. But I think that, like, okay, we've normalized that people are like, yes, into using these kinds of textiles to make clothing. But how about we take clothing that already exists and make it into something that we want to wear, too? I think that's the next step. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [76:59]
B
Well, and I think that, you know, my labor, for example, or one of the three of us, our labor going into upcycling a set of sheets into something else is, you know, is one thing. And we're Deciding to invest our time and energy into that. And we really understand the value of that because we have spent time sewing. But then when you look at, like, a cheap polyester T shirt, someone else invested their time and their energy, and they didn't get much of anything at all out of that. And so I don't think that it's, you know, kind of circling back to your original question, I would argue that even if it is, quote, unquote, bad material or if it's. It's a material that's less desirable, if it's a polyester, it's almost more, arguably more important.
- [77:59]
C
Important to keep it going, to keep.
- [78:01]
B
That going, because that's gonna be plastic waste that's entering the landfill. And, you know, we all chose the clothes that we wear, the clothes that we have in our closets, the clothes that we wear and wear out. We chose that for some reason. Right. We initially chose to, like, buy that and bring it into our home and wear it. And I know that, like, it's. It's not as desirable to keep wearing the same things amongst a lot of, like, circles. But also, you know, you can repairing or like, covering a stain, for example, you can completely change the look of garments, too, and you can kind of revive them and make them look different and make them look even more unique through mending techniques or repair. So I would. I kind of would argue that everything is work trying to repair. I would say, though, that I fully acknowledge that sometimes, like, really crappy construction techniques make it a lot more difficult or, like, really loosely woven. Some fabrics just don't lend themselves as well to being repaired. But I really, really think that everything is worth at least trying to fix.
- [79:25]
A
Have you ever encountered something that you just couldn't fix?
- [79:30]
C
Yes, I think it does get to a stage where you could fix it. But would the person, Like, I do a lot of repair for my son and his family, and that you reach a stage where you think, they're not going to wear this anymore.
- [79:47]
A
Right.
- [79:47]
C
It's just gone too far. And. And they have a pretty robust threshold in terms of what they will wear, which is good. Yeah. So you were saying, you know, you have come across things that you. You have given up on.
- [80:03]
B
Yeah. And a lot of it has been that kind of. Well, there's. There's sort of two camps. There's the stuff that's just been worn so, so much, and now it's just like too many layers or it's just way too thin. Like, I would basically have to like, make a whole New leg line the whole garment.
- [80:21]
C
Yeah.
- [80:21]
B
Line the entire thing. Thing to make it. To keep it going. And so those are things that get some sort of different life after that.
- [80:31]
C
Use them to stuff a cushion or something like that.
- [80:33]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [80:34]
B
Use them for rags around the house or whatever. And then the other things, there have been a few, like, just. I guess the examples that come to mind are like tool bags that my husband has bought for, like, you know, like those little, like, really cheap kind of fake canvas bags that come with various tools packaged in them or something.
- [80:59]
A
Yes.
- [81:00]
B
So, like, there's a lot of times when he'll ask me if, like, I can fix something or salvage something, and it's just like, no. Like, there's. There's no seam allowance. The fabric's already starting to shred. So there are some things that are just so poorly made that they have to just become something totally different because there's just not, like, there's no way to get to, like, enough of the item to, like, sew into it to make the fabric sort of whole again.
- [81:36]
A
Totally. And I would just say that most likely there is someone who will take those and use them for something else. Like, maybe they will use them to stuff a pillow or. Or, I don't know, insulate a cat house or something. Like, you know, there's always somebody out there. Yeah. Somewhere out there who is interested in taking those off your hands.
- [81:55]
B
I made what I'm calling a cat excluder out of a bunch of our old cat excluder. Old garments. Yes. So our cat. There's, like, a little gap at the foot of our bed between the mattress and the bed frame, and there's drawers underneath the bed. And so our cat was, like, squeezing in this little gap between the mattress and the foot of the bed, and he would just, like, hang out in the drawers under the bed all day, if we let him. So I made this long tube out of an old sheet, and then I stuffed it with, like, all of our, you know, I don't know, like, the old underwear and, like, old rags and just things that were just too, you know, too far gone to. And so, yeah, it worked great. The cat has been successfully excluded from the drawers under the bed, and I have several pounds of fabric that I did not have to throw away.
- [82:47]
A
There you go. See? And I. I think, like, I'll tell you, I get messages from people all the time who are like, I have all these scraps, or I have things that can't be repaired, and I don't know what to do with it. And I'm like, you know what? There is someone out there who wants that because they're going to make a cat excluder or whatever. So hopefully hearing.
- [83:08]
B
Another nice thing to make.
- [83:10]
A
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. There's always something.
- [83:14]
B
Yeah. If you have sewing skills and you have that extra stuff, like reach out on your buy nothing groups or your local, like community groups and just say, you know, find someone. I guarantee there's going to be someone who'd be like, sweet. Yeah, I'll take a yoga bolster. Are stuffed with clean old textiles, like, awesome. Or a draft excluder or whatever.
- [83:35]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I use a lot of those draft excluders in our house, and they're all made of random leftover stuff that we've had around, and they really work because we live in an old house and it's very drafty. Okay. So for people who are maybe like, you know what? I listened to this conversation. You're right. I should be mending things. What's wrong with me? I'm gonna start. Today's the first day of the rest of my life. What materials or supplies do you think they should have on hand to get started?
- [84:08]
B
Basically, if you're going to be mending by hand, what you need is a needle and thread and some scissors. You can sew up seams, you can replace buttons. You can do quite a bit of repairs just with a needle and thread.
- [84:25]
C
Yeah. Then you might add on some pins and some safety pins and a seam.
- [84:30]
B
Ripper and then patch. Fabric certainly is kind of the next. Beyond sewing on buttons and sewing up seams, kind of the next level of mend. I think it would be sewing on patches.
- [84:44]
C
Yeah. Don't throw out your old stuff. Keep your old stuff for patches.
- [84:48]
B
Yes, yes. All that old stuff we were talking about earlier. Keep some of that. I will often downgrade old textile clothes to become donor garments. And I keep, I mean, T shirts, sweatshirts, any kind of clothes that you have. It's nice to have some examples of, like, similar fabric to be able to patch those clothes. And I think a nice way to do this is like, like, if you want to get together with some friends and like, trade a leg of denim for like a square of T shirt, you know, because probably like a whole set of jeans worth of denim will last one person quite a long time, you know, so you can kind of share. Share those resources. And if you don't have your own, you know, you don't have your own sort of donor garments that you can. That you can pull from. I do sometimes buy stuff at thrift stores that has, like, the oldest color tag on it or stuff that, like, maybe already has a little bit of a tear or a stain or something on it. And I will find material for patches that way as well.
- [86:08]
A
So, yes, you really don't need a lot to get started. And I will just add that you could find most of the supplies you need at a thrift store or at a creative reuse. Every thrift store I go to has an abundance of those supplies. The one thing you might not find is a good pair of scissors, because if you have a good pair of scissors, you never part with them.
- [86:32]
C
But for mending, really, pretty much any scissors will do.
- [86:36]
A
It's true. I've totally used eyelash scissors to do some sewing, so. So I don't know why I have eyelash scissors, by the way. I've never worn false eyelashes, but that pair came into my life.
- [86:46]
B
It's for your mending. It's for your mending? Yeah, it's for my mending.
- [86:49]
A
They're the perfect size.
- [86:51]
B
Yeah. I will just add one thing. If you're going to thrift your sewing materials, check any, like, sewing thread that you buy. Give it, like, a good firm tug between your hands, because sometimes it does deteriorate over time, and sometimes it can be a little bit brittle, and it's very frustrating to mend something and then have the thread snap right away. So, like, you can tell if you can give it kind of a firm tug between your hands and it breaks. That's probably not something that you want to. To mend with.
- [87:22]
A
This is so true. And this is a lesson I've learned the hard way, where I actually put it on my machine, and I could tell it was a bit brittle, you know, like, I was like, I don't know, but it was poly thread, so I was like, it's technically supposed to last for the next few centuries. Right. But it just wouldn't stop sort of snapping and peeling. You know, that just happens. Important life lesson. So let me see. Do I have any other questions here? Do you have any. I mean, I know I will preface this by saying in your book, there are other resources for people to learn more about mending and, you know, the environmental and human impact of fashion and our clothing. Tons of resources there in the background, including my favorite podcast, clotheshorse. Are there any other resources you would recommend for people who are ready to learn about mending?
- [88:17]
C
Can I go first with this one? One of the resources that I have been using weekly, you know, every week at our sewing sessions, for the last several years, probably five or so years. Is the website repair what you wear?
- [88:34]
A
Okay.
- [88:35]
C
It is a hand sewing garment repair skills. It starts off at the very beginning of how to thread a needle. And that is how I learned the easy way to thread a needle because I had been doing it the difficult way up until just five years ago.
- [88:51]
A
Same that's how I was taught in Girl Scouts.
- [88:55]
C
Easy way to thread a needle, secure your thread and then there's about a half a dozen core skills and once you've got those under your belt. Ross Studd and Ellie, who set up the website, reckon that you can repair 80% of your clothing with just those basic skills. And then they have videos of common repairs and how to do them. Excellent.
- [89:22]
B
I think that is kind of the number one resource that we would direct people to. There are a ton of really good, like more advanced mending blogs and websites and books out there. And you know, I think just with a little bit of research you can kind of find like an angle if there's a certain like aesthetic that you like for your repairs. Sort of once you learn kind of the basics. There are are so many good resources for more advanced or more like decorative, more complicated mending styles. But yeah, repair what you wear would definitely be the first. Go to research. Oh, I also want to add if you're interested in learning about Sashiko, which is kind of everywhere in the mending zeitgeist right now. Yes, I really, really, really would encourage anyone who's interested in that to learn from Atsushi Futatsuya. He is on Instagram as Sashako Story. He also has a Patreon and he has a YouTube channel. And he is a Japanese Sashiko artisan who is teaching his traditional Sashiko techniques in English, which is a really difficult thing to find. And so he is, he. I really like his teaching style. He's also got a course on Domestika, which is an online craft course platform. And so if you're interested in that Sashiko aesthetic, please do consider learning from him because he's working really hard to preserve that cultural sustainability because there it's so popular right now and a lot of the cultural background and tradition are kind of getting lost in the teaching of it. So learn from Atsushi.
- [91:29]
A
Those are great suggestions. I also just say look in your community to see if there are other people getting together to mend because I think that this is popping up more and more and, and you know, sometimes the best way to learn is with someone there with you who can actually like, help you hold the fabric and help you solve the problem. And if you do have strong mending skills, I would encourage you to start your own meetup in your town. Because even out where I live, we're having them now. And it's really exciting to just see. See this spreading everywhere.
- [92:05]
C
Yeah. And one of the other things that's really good on the repair what you wear website and on the YouTube channel that, that Roz has is there's a video for people who can sew. So it's for sewing mentors, and it's to show you how to pass on skills to people with no skills. And it's like an hour and a half or something. And it's really, really simple and clear and an easy system to use. And so it can take you from somebody who can sew but can't teach to somebody who can teach sewing just in an hour and a half. It's great.
- [92:41]
B
You know, knowing how to sew, it becomes such an automatic, like, muscle memory task. You don't think about, like, okay, what is the pinky of my support hand doing while I'm holding this fabric? Like, you don't think about that. But for someone who is just picking up a needle and thread and you say, okay, watch me and do what I do, you don't think that, like, you kind of bend the fabric a little bit when you push that needle through or whatever. And so, yeah, Roz's video is really helpful to kind of like, talk you through. Like, what are. What are your hands doing? Like, what are you doing at every step of the way so you can kind of pass on that, that sort of tacit knowledge that we, we've learned through just hours and hours and hours of experience. She makes that really concrete so you can teach people more easily.
- [93:30]
A
All great call outs. And I agree. Like, listen, I know that when a word gets out that you're the person who knows how to sew, everyone starts showing up. They want you to alter their wedding dress and fix something for them and maybe just like, sew their kids Halloween costumes or whatnot. So I understand the need to keep a low profile. But if you are interested in teaching other people how to mend, I think that's a completely different ball of wax. And I think that it is a great way to change people's lives.
- [94:02]
B
Well, and mending is the barrier to entry is pretty low. Like, when it comes to sewing, like, it is pretty achievable for most people. And so, like, my approach, if someone asks me if I can fix Their thing. I say, yes, I will, but, like, I want to teach you how to do it. And we're going to hang out while we do it, and, like, I want help them get started, whatever. And then you have this, like, fun hangout with your friend, and that's awesome. And then they tell someone else and it just. Yeah, this is. This is, I think, really how it grows is people talking to people that they know. I mean, this is how so much change happens. Right? Is like, you talk to the people that you know, and you see people that you know doing this really achievable thing, and you see it working, and then they can kind of spread the word as well. So I think that that's like. That's really like Mary. And my goal with this is just to kind of like, get the word out, get about repair and mending and make it accessible, as accessible as possible. I do think that it should be. It should be something that people can learn to do if they want. I'll also say check with your library, because libraries have a ton of free mending books that you can check out. You will be able to find, stitch it, don't ditch it in most libraries, I think, along with lots of other really good books. And some of them even have, like, little sewing circles and things like that too, that you can. You can go along to.
- [95:33]
A
Yeah, and that's what I was going to say. If your library doesn't already have, like a mending night mending event, they are usually very open to you hosting one there. It's a great space to our venue, I suppose you could call it, to host an activity like that if you're wondering where to begin.
- [95:52]
B
It's free. Yeah, it's great. They've got good lighting, you know, all the important things.
- [95:58]
A
It's peaceful. Yeah. And I'll say, like, at least, you know, here in the United States right now, libraries are running low on funding for sort of enriching community events. This is one that they would be glad to host because it's. It doesn't cost them anything. Yeah.
- [96:15]
B
Yeah.
- [96:17]
A
All right. Well, do you have any final thoughts or words of wisdom that you want to share before we wrap it up?
- [96:24]
C
I think one of the things that. That we see very regularly at our sewing sessions is that somebody will come in with a garment and they'll say, I don't think this can be repaired, but I think thought it would. You know, I would bring it along just in case. And so often it is something that's really simple and you show them how to do it and they have it finished before the end of the session and they're so pleased with themselves. So, you know, regardless of how impossible people think that it might be, it might not be at all impossible. And give it a go. What's the worst that can happen?
- [96:59]
B
Right? You're clothes are already messed up. You probably aren't going to make it any worse. Mending is a really good place to start. Like, just try it.
- [97:08]
A
Yeah. You can always undo it. I mean, remember I sewed a zipper into a dress so poorly that it made me walk lopsided and I was able to get that zipper taken out and put in properly, no problem. Yeah.
- [97:20]
B
And that is an extreme example. So that is.
- [97:23]
A
Yeah, zippers, you can do this. Yes. Zipper is not. Is not. I've never mended before. I think I'm going to replace the zipper. That is not a starter project. Don't do that.
- [97:38]
B
Although I will say, as one of the, like, more advanced skills in stitch it, don't ditch it. We do give you some tips on what to do with your zippers. So.
- [97:51]
C
And that's another one of the repairs that there's lots out there on the Internet. Once, once you know what the names of things are, you can go and look it up and find lots of videos showing you how to do it. So zippers aren't as bad as they think. As you think they are.
- [98:07]
A
Yes. They just need a certain level of patience and panache that I currently don't have.
- [98:11]
C
Or a pair of pliers.
- [98:13]
A
Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. And I was dealing with a hidden zipper and it was all very complicated. I have taken so many dresses in to get new zippers at this mending place in town recently. And we had a talk last time we went in, just like, why are all these companies using these horrible zippers that have a very short expiration date on them? And these, like, a lot of the dresses I taken in, like, yes, I bought secondhand, but they were not, like, they weren't fast fashion brands, you know, and just like, they all break in the same point. It seems like constantly or just, just, I don't know, they start to pull out of the stitching and whatnot. And it's all the same sort of like hidden zipper situation. Anyway, get your zippers replaced. You'll be glad. You'll get like years more out of something. All right, Any final. Do you have anything you want to add, Gina, or do you feel as though you've said everything that's important?
- [99:09]
B
Oh, I'm sure in 10 minutes. I'll think of something else, but as of this point, I feel like we've covered everything pretty darn thoroughly. So. So yeah, it's been a wonderful conversation. Thank you Amanda for taking the time and letting us share all the things we're excited about about mending.
- [99:24]
A
Awesome. Yeah. And by the time this episode is released, your book will be out there and people can go find it anywhere. They buy books and at the library and you know, get one and share it with your friend if you need to. But definitely I will say that I have seen the PDF version of it and I think that if you are curious about learning mending like from square one or you want to upgrade your mending skills, it's all in there and it's very easy to understand. If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Clothesforce is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses, please go give them your support. Blank CAS or Blanket Coats by Cass is focused on restoring, renewing and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram @blankcas and a website will be launched soon@blankcas.com Located in Whistler, Canada, Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a vegan cafe and lots of rad products from other small sustainable businesses. Our mission is to create a brand and community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram opvelvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com Republica Unicornia yarns Handmade Yarn and Notions for the Color of Obsessed Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen. Get ready for Rainbows with a side of Giving a Damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced, hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knitting, knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicaunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. picnic Wear a slow fashion brand Ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion designer for over 10 years years but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnicwear offers minimal waste and maximum authenticity Future Vintage over future garbage Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values Find us on Instagram utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space. With the pewter thimble we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures available to you from the comfort of your own home, responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? Sign up@decodenim.com to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com thanks so much to Mary and Gina for joining me for a mega international transatlantic conversation. Seriously, getting all of the technology to work was a real challenge on this one. By now they're both book Stitch it, don't ditch it is out in the world. You can buy it just about anywhere. Might I suggest you support your favorite local bookstore? And if you can't do that IRL because you know not everybody has a great local bookstore accessible to them, but if you don't have that option, you can also support small bookstores via bookshop.org that's another place to shop for this book. You can also probably find this book at your local library and if you can't, ask them to order it, because I'm sure other people in your immediate sort of geographical community would also love this book and find a lot of benefit from it. In the meantime, the publisher gifted me a copy to give away to all of you. So I'm gonna do a giveaway this week via Instagram. Look for the post that says mending is a radical act. In addition to the book, the winner will also receive their choice of a Clothes horse iron on transfer and a pack of clothes horse stickers. So like, what a win. And you barely have to do anything except comment on a post. Like I said, run, don't walk to Instagram to find that post. By the time you hear this episode, that post is probably already up there and ready for you to enter the contest. I've been thinking a lot about how slow fashion is often a gateway into being sort of like activated as a concerned citizen, as someone who is a community leader, as someone who is a person who cares about bigger issues and then gets involved in changing things. And this was a recurring theme in conversations I was having with the attendees at the crafternoon that they started to think about the impact of the clothing they wear. Or maybe they listened to a couple episodes of clotheshorse because they were interested in clothes and suddenly they're thinking about all of these bigger issues and getting involved in making the world better. And think about it. It's like we start with a casual conversation about cute clothes or something cool. We thrifted. Maybe we show someone how to do some mending or reminding, remove a stain and suddenly we're like, radicalized. Which I know radicalized, scary word to use. But apparently caring about people and planet is radical. So I will take that label. I am so freaking radical. And you probably are too if you're listening to this podcast. And you know what I'm gonna say, I'm proud to be a part of getting new people to think about things differently. I'm proud to be radicalizing people to care about the planet and its people. And you should be proud too, of the work that you're doing to radicalize people as well. It doesn't have to be this huge thing where you're organizing rallies and, you know, speaking in front of huge crowds of people, or having a massive Instagram following, or even having a podcast. Of course, it could be those things too. But it can be as simple is showing someone how to thrift, talking about why you prioritize secondhand first, showing people how to measure clothes, repair them, do their laundry in a better way, use less plastic, turn their vegetable peels into broth, and any number of other small things that you do every day that someone else would be excited to learn and would start them on their radicalization journey. So let's get radical, let's stay radical, and let's keep doing what we're doing. Thanks for listening to another episode of Clotheshorse. Written, researched, edited, hosted and radicalized by me, Amanda Lee McCarty. As always, if you liked what you heard, please leave a Rating a Review Subscribe Tell your friends all those things to get more people to listen to Closed Source if you'd like to support my work financially, there are numerous ways you can do that. You can find all of that in the show notes in my bio on every social media platform except for, well, even TikTok, even though I'm not really using it. You can also purchase merch from the merch shop@closehorsepodcast.com and of course you could show up for the upcoming shows in Portland and Seattle. Lastly. But of course, never leastly, thank you so much to my other half, Mr. Dustin Travis White, for our music and our audio support and for carrying a lot of stuff in and out of Ruby's studio and for operating the Heat Press all day very patiently, very kindly, and hopefully making a really good impression on all of the attendees. Thank you so much, Justin. I'm so grateful for you. All right, I'll talk to you all next week. Week. Bye.