Episode 246: Doomerism is boring (LIVE IN SEATTLE!)

Summary

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Clotheshorse Ep. 246: "Doomerism is Boring" (LIVE IN SEATTLE!)

Host: Amanda Lee McCarty (she/they)
Guests: Janelle (jrat), Kim (Heavy Duty Vintage), Nivi (Soapbox Project)
Date: October 26, 2025
Location: Seattle, WA (Live audience)

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Overview

In this dynamic live episode, host Amanda Lee McCarty challenges the rise of “doomerism” — the defeatist belief that individual ethical action is pointless in late capitalism, especially regarding fashion, consumption, and climate change. Amanda and three guest leaders from the slow fashion and climate action space push back against apathy, exploring why it’s vital to keep having inconvenient, human, creative conversations about change—even when doing so is hard.

Through storytelling, audience engagement, and unforgettable anecdotes (and the improv game "Brenda"), the panel demonstrates that meaningful progress is possible, that ethical living is not just for the privileged, and that community, creativity, and hope are crucial antidotes to resignation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Culture of “Doomerism” and Conversation Stoppers

[07:00 - 10:28]

• Amanda critiques the proliferation of phrases like “we’re doomed,” “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism,” and “my individual actions don’t matter,” especially in online spaces.

• Quote:

  “If we say we're doomed, we don't have to change anything we do ever... But you take a step back and you think like, maybe being doomed isn't very fun, right?”
  — Amanda (10:00)

• Amanda draws an analogy between “doomer” rhetoric and her own past relationship denial, comparing avoidance of personal change to avoiding hard conversations about collective problems.

2. Carrying the Conversation Forward

[11:00 - 16:00]

• Instead of letting “no ethical consumption” end the debate, Amanda argues we need to ask: “What if we carried the conversation beyond that, and did something different, even if it’s inconvenient or uncomfortable?”

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3. Guest Spotlight: Janelle (jrat) — Sacrifice & Creativity for Ethical Fashion

[11:43 - 25:57]

• Janelle’s upcycled clothing brand is rooted in a refusal to contribute to exploitative global garment chains.

• Quote:

  “If I didn’t make [sacrifices] for myself, I’d be asking somebody else to sacrifice for my paycheck.”
  — Janelle (13:23)

• She discusses pushing back against industry norms, even within her own family, and explains her philosophy of creative, ethical labor.

  • Learned the realities of labor exploitation at 15 working in her parents' factory; has had to make personal and financial sacrifices to run her studio.

• Hard-won insight: Ethical fashion is not inherently for the rich; Janelle strives to make it accessible, and frames her customers as partners in ethical labor value.

• Memorable Exchange:

  A: “How hard is it to do what you’re doing? Like, do you find yourself literally suffering because you stick to your values?”
  C: “Yes… I went through long periods of self-punishment... But being sustainable is being willing to acknowledge my humanity.”
  — Amanda & Janelle [21:19-25:01]

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4. Audience Q&A: Practicality vs. Perfection

[26:10 - 29:09]

• Reuse, shipping, and “perfection as enemy of progress”:

  • Amanda: “If you posted that [question] on the internet, someone would be like, ‘You’re canceled,’ …Listen, if you’re gonna wear that jacket a lot, go for it.”
  • Janelle: “Investing in something unique increases the joy and longevity.”

• Generational ethics and leading by example raised in a question about inspiring kids:

  • Amanda: “We can just model the world we want to see and lead by example.”

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5. Guest Spotlight: Kim (Heavy Duty Vintage) — Clothing, Identity, and Emotional Realities

[42:02 - 54:01]

• Kim discusses the deep psychological connection plus-size and queer people have with clothing, rooted in class, trauma, and resource scarcity.
  • Growing up fat and queer: “Clothing was political in every sense…”
• Calls out how shame around owning “too much” simply mirrors resource insecurity:
  • Quote:

    “When you grow up with limited resources, what you have defines how you take part in the world. So when you’re a fat gay kid... what I could wear and how I could show up in places was my only level of access, which means what I owned was my only ability to define myself.”
    — Kim (54:49)

  • Amanda: “When we talk overconsumption, we mean buying tons, barely wearing them, then passing them on as waste. Having a lot of loved clothing is actually stewardship.”

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6. Building and Discovering Personal Style Through Gender and Size

[59:11 - 65:10 (Q&A)]

• Audience member Colleen asks about finding style through gender confusion and plus-size lens.
• Kim’s advice:
  • “Be nice to yourself. You’re not gonna hit it every day.”
  • Start with comfort; play and experiment without tying style to confidence or “hitting it.”
  • Once you shed fear of “looking wrong,” possibilities open up: “It’s not the pants that make me look fat, you know?... Once you take that layer away… you can get playful with it.”

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7. Stewardship and Stories: Wearing vs. Saving Treasured Clothes

[68:03 - 72:55]

• Amanda, Kim & Janelle discuss generational pieces, sentimental attachments, and the “gallery” nature of loving and preserving clothes.
• Janelle: “I have clothes that are precious and I view as art objects, and I have others I have sacrificed to live in. I want them to look like I lived in them.”
• The stories attached to clothing matter: it’s about what you do in them, who you meet, the memories you make.

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8. Guest Spotlight: Nivi (Soapbox Project) — Community as Anti-Doom

[79:12 - 95:22]

• Nivi describes starting Soapbox Project so climate action can be joyful, accessible, and regular—not one-off or performative.
  • “I didn’t want to be an activist. I just wanted to be a girl. But the fate of the planet was interfering with my ability to vibe and hang out with my friends.” (79:53)
• Community is the antidote to doomscrolly apathy: “Even if who knows what happens in 100 years… I’m not giving up on the people around me and I’m not giving up on this group project to save the world.”
• Reframes doom as boring and unoriginal.
• Quote:

  “We get it, you can doom scroll great.”
  — Nivi (83:48)

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9. The Myth of Convenience (and Its Relationship to Capitalism & Apathy)

[85:29 - 95:18]

• The panel discusses how convenience—hailed as a high value—often distances us from community, reduces creativity, breeds apathy, and ends possibilities for meaningful change.
• Kim: “Convenience is a myth, it’s based on what you can afford, what you have access to, what your body is capable of… for me, it’s convenient to see cash in my wallet and go buy groceries with it.”
• Nivi: “Convenience is the opiate of the masses… But who is the person you want to be? I’d rather be inconvenienced.”

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10. Vintage Sourcing for Plus Sizes, Business Sacrifice, and Sustainability

[97:06 - 109:32]

• Kim, on why plus-size vintage is scarce: “Fat people have fewer resources and our pay equity is shit. So historically, fat people wore things until they disintegrated.”
• Estate sales, traveling, and direct community are best sources; plus-size shopping is “destination shopping.”
• How do small, mission-driven business owners sustain themselves financially and emotionally?
• Nivi on her experience: “I had to go four years without a paycheck, but it was still better than the stomachache of corporate work… Take stock of your own runway with finances, mental health, support network.”
• Amanda: “I’m a thousand times happier than when I was working in corporate fashion… Even if I have existential anxiety all the time, at least I’m doing what matters.”

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11. What Keeps Us Hopeful?

[109:32 - END]

• Nivi: “We have to create the things that keep us hopeful… Dystopia needs to die. I’m only interested in solarpunk and protopian art. …It is the hard work and the joyful rigor of making sure I leave my house and talk to people that want to keep hope alive.”
• Kim (with humor): “I exist purely out of spite… But if something’s horny or I can do something ’for the bit,’ that’s my reason. …When someone tells me something’s not possible, I’m like, but did you even try?”
• Janelle: “I am personally in an era of post-traumatic growth. I’m willing to continue making sacrifices because they will accumulate only for the positive, and I get to define what success is.”
• Amanda (closing): “If you’re feeling right now like giving up, that you’re doomed…just again, we are not doomed unless we choose to be. And we’re not choosing that. That’s why we’re here.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “If we say we're doomed, we don't have to change anything we do ever.”
  — Amanda, (10:00)

• “If I didn't make [sacrifices] for myself, I'd be asking somebody else to sacrifice for my paycheck.”
  — Janelle, (13:23)

• “Clothing isn't just clothing, TM. There's a whole universe under this pair of pants.”
  — Kim, (45:40)

• “We can never let perfection be the enemy of progress. In sustainability, we do that way too often.”
  — Amanda, (27:02)

• “We are not doomed unless we choose to be. And we’re not choosing that.”
  — Amanda, (118:00)

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Additional Memorable Exchanges

• On Fat Queer Style and Survival
  Kim: “If this one black dress doesn't work, these 77 other black dresses might... When you grow up with limited resources, what you have defines how you take part in the world.” (54:49)
• On Inspiration and Hope
  Nivi: “Dystopia needs to die. I’m only interested in solarpunk... We are only feeding the narratives that talk about how bad things are.” (110:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:47 – Amanda’s intro, “Brenda” game explanation
• 07:00 – On “doomerism” as a conversation stopper
• 11:43 – Guest intro: Janelle (jrat)
• 21:19 – On the real sacrifices of ethical labor
• 26:10 – Audience Q&A: ethics vs. perfection
• 42:02 – Guest intro: Kim (Heavy Duty Vintage)
• 43:52 – Clothing, trauma, and personal history
• 54:01 – Owning lots of clothes as stewardship, not shame
• 59:11 – Q&A on discovering style and gender
• 68:03 – Wearing vs. preserving sentimental clothes
• 79:12 – Guest intro: Nivi (Soapbox Project)
• 85:29 – Myth and dangers of "convenience"
• 97:06 – Q&A: plus-size vintage, business & sustainability
• 109:32 – What keeps us (and the movement) hopeful?

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Tone

The episode is irreverent, heartfelt, and honest—mixing humor, vulnerability, and critique. The panelists joke (“I exist purely out of spite,” “What we all actually have to do is develop a more meaningful relationship with our bodies,” “Do not let perfection be the enemy of progress!”), but never shy away from the hard stuff. The mood is candid but community-minded: “We are not doomed—unless we choose to be.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a rallying cry against resignation, a look inside the lived experiences of three leaders who refuse to stop at “we’re cooked.” It’s a testament to the messy, powerful, uncomfortable—and ultimately hopeful—work of building a more just, less boring world, starting with what we wear and how we show up.

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Transcript

[A]

Well, welcome to Clothes Horse, the podcast that sprained and Sankle last week. So just in case you all are wondering why I'm wearing a brace, I fell down the attic stairs last week getting my suitcase to come out here, and I thought it might be a bad omen, but we're dispelling that and we're saying it's like a good luck sprain. Right?

[B]

Here we are.

[A]

We're in Seattle. I am so excited to be here with you all tonight. First off, I want to thank Christine and Casey of Care Instruction for running the merch booth, for bringing the heat press, for making teas, ringing you all up and just being here to help me out. If you don't follow them on social media already, you should. It's care instruction. Care.instruction PDX. And I'm so grateful for their help. I wanted to thank my friend Ruby of Slow Fashion Academy for making me this sick ass dress that has lived in my imagination since the eight. So thank you to Ruby. I wanted to thank my friend Maggie Green, the Halloween queen. Some of you may know the legend for doing my makeup tonight. Man, I'm just so grateful for all the people who come into my life thanks to Clothes Horse, and I'm grateful for all of you being here tonight. Okay, so tonight we're doing something a little fun, make it a little bit more exciting around here, which is we are playing a game. Well, some people call it bingo, but around here we call it Brenda. And the goal of Brenda is, of course, to get five in a row. It has to be straight, diagonal, up and down, whatever. No postage stamp or really hardcore bingo rules here, because this is Brenda, right? We make our own rules. Brenda is in the center square. You all get that? I hope you all have a pencil and a Brenda card. If you don't, Maggie has them. Oh, my goodness. A lot of people don't. So while Maggie is distributing those, let me just tell you a little bit more about Brenda. These are all words and phrases that you might hear me or my fabulous guests say tonight. And when you have five in a row, when you have five in a row, don't be shy. Yell out, Brenda. I have fabulous prizes, which are gift certificates to the merch table. The first winner gets 40, the other two get 20. I've got them right here on stage in my stage purse. So keep your ears peeled for the things that might be on your card. So in addition to. I really hope you all loved the video presentation because literally, it brought tears to my eyes. I love it so much. In addition to Brenda, I just wanted to tell you a little bit about how the live episode goes, which is I am channeling my inner Sally Jesse Raphael, and I will be bringing my guests on stage one at a time. We'll do some chit chatting, and then I'm going to come out into the audience to take questions. And I will tell you that in my stage purse, I have very special stickers that are not available for sale and literally not one other person has on the earth right now if you ask a question, because I know people get shy, I'm not above bribery. So I'll be coming back and forth to take questions from you all then. All right, should we get started here? Everybody's got their Brenda card. Okay, so I wanted to ask all of you something, which is how many times recently have you heard or seen someone say, we're cooked, we're doomed. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Don't get me started. My impact will never be as great as Amazon's. So you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to buy 10 more Keurigs this week. This kind of stuff, right? And I'm sure you all see it all the time. You may feel it sometimes on really bad days. And I'll be the first to admit, there are a lot of days this year alone where I am like, I'm packing it in, right? Like, I just can't go on. It's too much. But the first few years that I was doing clotheshores, people would show up constantly. They would send me emails, they would comment on social media posts, they would say these things like, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, or, who cares? We're doomed. It's climate change is here. It's never changing. We're doomed. It's all over. Why bother doing anything? And every time someone said something like this to me, I was flummoxed. Like, what do you say? It's the end of the conversation? Because I've got. How do I push back on that? Of course, I knew that there was a lot more conversation that needed to happen after that and should happen after that. But in order to keep that conversation going, I had to understand why people were saying those things. Saying things that they knew effectively ended the conversation. And so to figure this out, I read a lot of psychology books. I read books about grassroots organization. And I spent a lot of time thinking about myself and my own experiences and times when I wanted to end the conversation and just get out of it. Right. And I thought back to this time, and I think it's going to sound familiar to some of you here, perhaps all of you. A time when I dated someone that all my friends hated. Is anyone here? Right. Maybe at first they were like, I don't know about that guy. I don't like how he did that thing to you. And then three months later, it's like, I hate that person. Please don't bring them around anymore. And then it's, I swear to God, if you talk about that person one more time around me, we're not friends anymore. Right. For me specifically, it was someone I was dating who was horrible to me. His alcoholism was so bad that raccoons were in his house.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Any of you who listen to the department know that story. And things were bad. Like, he was hurting me continuously. And my friends went from like, I don't think he's good enough for you, to if you ever talk about him again, we're not friends.

[B]

Pretty rapidly, actually.

[A]

And every time one of them would say something like that, I would say, well, you don't know him like I do. You don't know what it's like when we're alone together. Maybe every once in a while I pull out that gem, oh, he's so in love with me, he can't handle it. That's why he acts this way, like he doesn't love me. Right? And every time I said something like that, you know, it was the equivalent of me being, well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so I'm going to keep dating this raccoon guy. It was a conversation ender. And I knew that, right? I was one, I was doing these mental acrobatics to sort of stop the conversation with the friend, but I was also doing it to stop the conversation with myself. Because what I realized is if I really allowed myself to receive what that person was saying to me and I thought about it and the conversation continued beyond that, I would have to figure out what I was going to do next. And there was going to be change involved, right? Like my day to day life was going to change, you know, One, I'd have to break up with him once and for all, which was not going to be easy. Two, I'd probably have to get back on Tinder and who wants to do that? You know? And three, like, things would just be different. I would have more time to myself and have to fill that somehow. And all of that felt really scary to me. Like the change of it all was why I didn't want to continue the conversation. And so as I was thinking about why do people, especially on the Internet, want to tell me that we're all doomed and we should give up? Which I was seeing in 2020 and I'm seeing now, it's been a recurring theme, right? Why would people want to say that? Because it seems to me that being doomed sucks, right? It's what a miserable place to be. Well, if we say we're doomed, we don't have to change anything we do ever. We don't have to do any work at all and we can just be doomed, right? It feels like the easy out. Although, I don't know, you take a step back and you think like, maybe being doomed isn't very fun, right? You probably can't shop your way out of the feeling sad about being doomed, right? But when we say we're doomed, we don't have to say we feel like we're doomed, but we could do these things and maybe not be. And maybe some of those things would be inconvenient or different or involve us changing our day to day habits or our mindset about how we approach the world in general. It might mean we'd have to go out and talk to other humans or stop doing the same things that always seem to cheer us up, at least temporarily, whether that's shopping or more shopping or whatever it might be. A lot of I cite shopping here just because a lot of times it seems like the people who are doomed are also doomed to place an order on Shein. And so I think a lot about how we get people to continue the conversation beyond, well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. So I'm going to target right now. See you, you want anything. And instead we say, what if I told you one, Marx never said that, it came from Twitter. And two, there is more ethical consumption under capitalism. That statement doesn't even make any sense when you really dig into it. Anyway, what if we carried the conversation beyond that within ourselves and with the people around us, and we did something different, something that might sometimes be uncomfortable, inconvenient, tiring, but probably most different from anything we've been doing right now? Well, today we're going to talk about that and I have three awesome guests who are absolutely not letting the conversation end at that. And they're doing things that sometimes are kind of hard, are inconvenient and all consuming. So I'm really excited for you to meet them all tonight. And we're going to get started with someone who has been on clotheshorse before it is Janelle of jrat. You want to come on up here? Hold on. I got to go through my cards here. I. I just want to say I did that whole thing without looking at my cards, and I'm really proud. Okay, let me. I just wanted to make sure I introduced everything I wanted. So. Yes, Janelle is the person behind jrat, which is a fully upcycled clothing line. She is also a performance artist and does community work via Sustainable Style Seattle. Do you want to grab a mic and do you want to. Yeah, we should sit. It's all great if we stand, right? You all agree? Okay. So Janelle, first off, you made this, right?

[C]

I did, yes.

[A]

Thank you. Can we all have a round of applause for Janelle's outfit? Yeah.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

So, you know, Janelle, you've been on Clothes Horse before, so I'm not going to like go into all the nitty gritty of your backstory, but when we were prepping for this episode, you know, one question that came up is like, you're obviously really talented. You really love style, fashion, clothes. Why are you. I'm just guessing here, probably a lucky guess. Making probably little to no money, working really hard instead of, you know, getting a corporate fashion job.

[C]

Excuse me. I'm very proud of the small amount of money I am able to generate from my business. Yes. I am not destitute, but I do choose to continue to work in a studio where I have been robbed and burgled before. So there are compromises.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But I. I went to fashion school. I did the thing. I fought a lot with my professors because many of them wanted to push me into a mold that would be appropriate to enter the corporate fashion world. But I had learned when I was 15 how interconnected modern day slavery, human trafficking, and garment production were. And I thought, I cannot in my right mind become a connection point so that these people being exploited in developing nations that we never see or hear from are connected to a blind consumer population who's just willing to take a deal when it comes their way. So I just didn't want to be complicit in that chain of enslavement. And so I thought, I have to create a different path and I have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to do that. And those are things I was willing. Those are sacrifices I was willing to make because if I didn't make them for myself, I'd be asking somebody else to sacrifice for my paycheck.

[A]

And I think this is a great example of that idea. I Think we've all fully debunked this. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Because a lot of people would say, who cares? Why don't you just go get your paycheck? Whether you're making it or someone else is making it, everything is doomed. It doesn't matter. Right. Why not make your life easier? Like, what do you think if. I mean, I'm sure at some point someone's gonna say that to you on the Internet. By the way.

[C]

I'm very passive on the Internet, so I don't get into a lot of those kinds of conversations. Cause, yeah, emotionally I can't handle it.

[A]

Fair.

[C]

So I just kinda, I like show up, tip my hat and I, I stepped back. But I did run into that because my parents owned a clothing manufacturing company when I was growing up and it was all manufactured here in Seattle. And so I really got to understand clothing production from behind the scenes, from the labor perspective. And my dad, being the businessman, really suggested that I go into the industry, see how it works, get involved, and then kind of figure out from there how to do the thing I wanted to do. So I had to butt up against his desires for me and his thinking of what the right way is. And I had done that throughout a lot of my life with people where they just say, like, why do you dress the way you do? Like, why don't you look like a normal person? And I would be like, what is normal? Are you normal? Middle aged man who's talking to a young girl about why she dresses the way she dresses? Like, I don't think this situation is normal. You should just step back and not care. Like, go talk to your wife.

[A]

She's.

[C]

She probably gets it. So, yeah, I just, I think from a very young age I had to learn to disregard other people's opinions and projection onto me and just say, I need to do what I feel most comfortable doing. And I feel most comfortable wearing what I'm wearing and working the way that I work. And if that doesn't work for you, it doesn't matter to me because this works for me.

[A]

Applause, please.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Agreed. Agreed. Okay. So you know, for every episode of Close Horse, I spend like an hour or so sort of pre gaming with the guests. Months, usually months before the episode is recorded where I just talk to them and I type like a maniac so fast. Things they say to remind myself later. And I'm like formulating what we're going to talk about. And when Janelle and I were talking and I was typing like the Wind. You said, I'm putting my customers in a place where they have to support what I support. And I really love that. That's why I typed it up so fast. And it was in a conversation that we were having about the responsibility of the creative, meaning you or any of us here to make ethical decisions even when they're hard.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And again, that's something I committed to very early in my practice because I was coming up against my own anxiety and sense of responsibility. And I had to make peace with that within myself before I could ever step out and ask somebody else to. To partner with me in doing what I'm doing. And I really need. Especially with fashion, like, it's a consumer product, but I'm approaching it through an artistic lens. So I really needed people to be willing to support what I'm doing, because otherwise, yeah, I would be in a lot of debt. And I just. That's also an arena I can't emotionally live within. So finding that way to gain confidence of self, that I'm doing exactly what I need to be doing so that I can provide other people the opportunity to enter this space that is often inaccessible because of finances, since so many people are underpaid in our own country. And that becomes a lot of the challenge of making one of a kind, like works of art that are masquerading as garments. I really need people to partner with me to say that this. This labor is worth adequate compensation, and so is your labor, regardless of what you're doing. So it's been a challenge. And it's been a challenge to figure out how to scale my business in order to keep it sustainable, because I can't work at a discounted rate indefinitely. But that's something that I chose to do so that I could get more people on board and invested and even connected to the idea that this is a way of living that is accessible to them, even if they thought previously it wasn't. Because ethically made clothing is only for rich people. Like, I don't think that's true.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It ought not to be true, even though it appears to be true.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that is something I. Another thing I see online literally every day, at least once a day, which is this idea that only wealthy people get the privilege of being ethical, which, of course, is wrapped in layers of irony, because do we think that billionaires are more ethical people? There's only one answer. It's no.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[D]

They.

[C]

They gained their money from exploitation.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

So that they can buy things made in ethically Ethically managed environments. Like, I think most billionaires are still profiting off of exploitation through the things that they manufacture and purchase.

[A]

Yeah, no, totally true. There was a few years ago, Jeff Bezos went to Coachella. I don't know if anybody saw the shirt that he was wearing.

[B]

What?

[C]

Why was he there?

[A]

I don't. He looks.

[C]

Yeah, he's cool.

[A]

He parties.

[C]

He's so cool. Yeah, he's like really buff and hot and I like that.

[A]

And you know, like, I have really complicated feelings about the Internet. Sometimes I think it's horrible. Like, you know, it spreads misinformation and makes people dehumanize one another. But sometimes I love the Internet so, so much because there are people out there who will solve a mystery even if it takes all day or weeks. And Jeff Bezos was wearing this really ridiculous polyester button up shirt with like a wild novelty print, ill fitting, shiny, really gross to wear in the desert. And people tracked it down and it was a shirt from Amazon that was like 12 bucks. Oh, right, I know. And like on one hand you're like, good for you for repping the brand, I guess. But on the other hand you're like, oh, wait, so like rich people don't make more ethical decisions?

[C]

Yeah, like that should be silk. Like just, just buy silk. If you can afford silk, just buy it. Just do it.

[A]

Like, and like, you know, no shade here, but like get a stylist because that was a bad choice.

[C]

Pay someone to make these decisions for you because you're clearly not authorized to make them for yourself.

[A]

Yeah, but you know, I think like, you know, like as I was talking in my sort of like opening monologue, I don't know, is that too self important? I don't know. But you know, when we carry the conversation further about like, how are we going to make change in this world? It's not easy at first. Although I will say it's not as hard as you think it's going to be. It's just like what is unknown is always way bigger until it's a reality. How hard is it to do what you're doing? Like, do you find yourself in situations on a regular basis where you were like, I am literally suffering because I stick to my values.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Same.

[C]

Yes. Yes, yes. I went through long, a very long period of self punishment in order to adhere to my values. I didn't own a car for seven years and Seattle is not a transit friendly city and I was working in downtown Seattle and Kirkland, which was about 18 miles away. And I had a bicycle, so I would ride my bike 150 miles a week just to commute to all my jobs. And at the same time, I was struggling with an eating disorder. So I wasn't supporting myself physically enough because there was also a lot of issues wrapped up in spending money on food because of the way that food is manufactured. And I had established this lifestyle of free getting in New York, which I can't maintained here because Seattle is actually really pro composting, which is a problem if you're trying to get food from the trash. So I, yeah, and I was working jobs that I felt I were aligned with some aspect of my ethics or my creative pursuit. But again, they were a sacrifice because, you know, I had three jobs and I had to cobble them all together. And I was working six days a week and then running my own creative work on the side, but not trying to make that something. That was my monetary support because I didn't want to put pressure on my creative work so that I, I could avoid pandering or making things that were inauthentic just to make a buck. So I did that for a long time, too long. And then when we did finally get a car, I had a lot of guilt and anxiety, like, am I allowed to take a break? Like, can I haul 40 pounds in my car car instead of on my back? And even today, like, I drove down, but I chose to park somewhere where I could park for free. And then I had to walk two miles to get here just to make sure, like, I'm, you know, I'm being responsible. Everyone, please, like, don't come for me. I'm really trying my best to solve the climate crisis as a single individual because if I don't drive a car.

[A]

Then everything's fine, we're fixed.

[C]

It's great.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And also with my work too, like, using exclusively reclaimed materials has been environmental commitment, but it's also coming from a place of a financial commitment because it helps reduce the price point of my work so that whatever I charge, that's just labor. Like, I don't charge people for the materials that I'm using. And if I was, then my work would have to be significantly more expensive because materials are expensive if you want quality and quality is what's going to give you longevity. So, yeah, it's, and, and again, going back to being in a studio where it's really cheap and that's why it's a sketchy neighborhood. People broken in, like, I've been assaulted. There's, there's just been a lot of nonsense, but I worked my way into becoming the property manager there. So now I have some semblance of authority to be like, hey, we are keeping the front door locked. Okay? Like, we are keeping the bathroom doors closed so people don't wander in and get themselves stuck in our building. And then I end up having to deal with that. So, yeah, it's been a lot of sacrifices and a lot of discomfort, and some of the discomfort comes from making choices that feel antithetical to my commitments, because I'm tired and I'm human, and I. And part of being sustainable is being willing to acknowledge my humanity and say, like, I'm exhausted and maybe I should take a day off from work, even though I'm my own boss and, like, I need to go do my work, but I don't want to work. And that could be okay. To not want to work.

[A]

I mean, is that okay? I feel like you're pulling this from my inner mind.

[C]

Is that okay?

[A]

Every day.

[C]

Can I take a day off? Will someone approve this?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that those of us who are out there, like, really trying to make change in this world and make a difference. Some of that pressure is internal, for sure, because I have it. But I also am like, people put a lot of responsibility on us. Sometimes where I have to be like, hey, I'm just, like, one person, and I do need to sleep sometimes, you know? But, like, I'm bad at advocating for that. So I think part of, like, a building a strong, powerful movement and making impact in this world, part of it is accepting our humanity, like you're talking about, and caring for ourselves, but it's also recognizing the humanity of the people working alongside us, you know?

[C]

Definitely.

[A]

Okay. I have some questions about clothes, but as we were sitting here, I realized I wanted to wait till we get Kim on stage. So I'm gonna go out and take some questions first, if y' all have questions for Janelle, and then we'll get Kim up here. Let me get my stage purse.

[C]

Jealous.

[A]

Okay, so just. Do you wanna stand up? Just make it a little easier. Okay. Just tell us your name and ask your question.

[B]

Cool. Hey, I'm Garrett. Janelle. You taught me what a gusset is, which has changed my underwear's life, among other things. Thank you. Is it more?

[D]

How.

[B]

How much am I balancing out if I order a reused coat? But it's from Japan.

[A]

Mmm. Get the calculator. I know.

[B]

Sorry. Super specific.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But shipping is important. Yeah.

[A]

I mean. Okay, here's My thought here is that we can never let perfection be the enemy of progress. And in the world of sustainability and climate change and slow fashion, we do that way too often.

[B]

Where?

[A]

Definitely. I'm just going to be honest with you. If you posted that question on the Internet, someone would be like, I can't. You're canceled. Right. Because of the airfare. Listen, if you're gonna wear that jacket a lot, go for it. You know, that's why I don't judge people who buy fast fashion either. Cause, like, if you're gonna take care of it and wear it for a really long time and love it, like, that's way better than buying 37 sustainable, locally made garments and letting them sit in your closet and never wearing them. Right.

[C]

I agree. And I also think investing in something like that, it increases what is special and unique and what ties you to that garment because you sought it out. It came from Japan. It has this whole narrative behind it that you might never know, but there's just an energy within it that will live longer with you because it is that special and unique within your world. And I sell work in Japan. Like, I ship things I make here to Japan. And honestly, I never think twice about that because that's just part of running the business. And so you're supporting someone's business, and I feel like that that's a positive thing, especially if it's coming from a small seller as opposed to some, like, more multinational conglomerate.

[A]

Yeah. So order that jacket. Yeah.

[B]

Get it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There you go.

[D]

It's already here.

[A]

I wasn't sure if you were, like, waiting for us to sign off. Okay. Does anybody else have a question? Okay, I'm gonna come around this way. Amanda, I'm Rachel. It's nice to meet you in person.

[B]

We talked before.

[A]

Rachel was a previous guest, so just give her vip.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I'm so excited to meet you in real life.

[B]

Likewise.

[C]

So having two kids who are young.

[A]

Adults, I was really struck by what.

[C]

You talked about experiencing when you were.

[A]

15, and I would just love to know more about.

[B]

What was it that made you so inspired to go in this direction that I'm not maybe in my own life? I'm not necessarily seeing the same sort of.

[A]

Activity from my own kits. Yeah, that's a really good question.

[C]

Yes, I. I think it was very personal because I grew up in a garment factory, and I knew people who cut out the fabric, who sewed the samples, who were on the production line, who worked the buttonholer, who were pressing the garments. Like, I. I Knew those people, they were my friends. I was the boss's kid, so everybody had to be nice to me. So hearing that, like, oh, these same people that I know, their names, their faces, I see them every day. If they were working in the country they came from, they could be working 12 hour, 14 hour shifts for $3 a day, living in untenable conditions, working in a building that might collapse and kill them within a month. So it was a very personal connection where I don't want the people I know to be treated like that. So why would I support any business out there who is treating the same caliber of labor in that way? And I also, my parents company closed when I was 13. So I learned about this just about two years after their business closed. And both my parents lost their jobs at the same time. So our finances were incredibly tight. And I had started thrifting at that point. So it just became this sort of cementing of why I wanted to commit to thrifting exclusively and buying vintage. Because I thought at least these vintage garments, like whoever made this, they had a better chance of being fairly compensated as opposed to buying newly manufactured clothing that was thrifted. So it just felt like a very personal and deep connection for me and I committed to it and never looked back but for the times where I bought something newly manufactured and then felt really guilty about it. So I don't know how to inspire other people. But for to put things in that very human context of like, what if all of your friends were in this situation where they were in debt bondage, they were trapped in a building that was locked from the outside for 14 hours? Like, what if this was your life? Do you want to live that life? Why are we forcing other people to live this life so that you can buy something from Shein that you're going to throw in the garbage once it gets to your house? And that's what they're living for. That's what garment manufacturers are living for. So that you can throw away their product. Like it just especially.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Being that I make clothing and I know how much labor it involves and how many years it takes to get proficient at it. Like, they are so skilled that their clothing looks machine made. It looks like a machine just stamped it out and sent it on a conveyor belt. But a human had to be behind it and they deserve to be treated with like basic decent human respect. And they're not getting that. And I just, yeah, personally I'm like, I can't be down.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good question, Rachel. Like, someone asked me a couple days ago, and it was a good question. They said, listen, you have been a buyer in fast fashion most of your adult life. While you were raising your daughter.

[D]

What.

[A]

Was your daughter's relationship with fast fashion? And I said, you know, that's a really great question, actually, because I felt like we don't. You know, I had this tremendous pressure to compartmentalize my work life from my family life because I had a lot of issues with what was happening at work. And I just modeled what I never preached. I never said, oh, that thing, yeah, it's gonna go to a landfill. And probably someone suffered to make it. I just modeled a different path forward, right? Like, we thrifted all the time from the moment Dylan was, like, in a little backpack on my back. And so shopping secondhand was second nature. And Dylan was a super early adopter of thredup and buying secondhand clothing online and without any lectures from me ever. Right? Like, Dylan's still actively thrifting most of their clothes most of the time. And I think that we can just model the world we want to see lead by example with our friends and with our family, with our kids. And, you know, I saw around back to school time, a lot of people chatting online about, well, my kids, it's like they want to go to Target to get their school supplies. They love it there. But, you know, I'm trying to boycott Target, so I don't know what to do. I guess we'll just go to Target anyway. And I was like, how about you just don't go to Target? And I was, of course, like, complaining about this to Dustin. I was like, I can't. This drives me crazy. I don't know what to say. And I told him this story, which I don't think I've ever told on clotheshorse before. And I cannot verify the veracity of one part of this story. But when I was a kid, my grandma refused to take us to Burger King, which was highly problematic to me because they had ALF puppets. Grandma, why, why? Why can't we go to Burger King? Now, here's the part of this. I can verify that they had alf puppets. I can verify that my grandmother wouldn't take me. Here's why she wouldn't go to Burger King, because she said that an elderly man had gone in there to Burger King. I don't know if it was the one where we grew. I grew up or some Burger King somewhere around the world. He went in there and he asked for a glass of water and they said no, water is for customers only. And he died. Now, I don't know the timeline. I don't know if it was like that. I don't know if he was like, how did he get so dehydrated? I don't know. I have a lot of questions, but I will tell you. Here I am decades later, no ALF puppets to be seen, but I'm thinking about like, man, you know what, that is so cool that my grandma wouldn't go to Burger King because, you know, she didn't agree with how they treated people, right? And that's like the original reduce refuse resist right there, right? Like, born in York, Pennsylvania and related to Burger King. Anyway, I'm gonna come back down here and slowly because of my ankle and we're gonna bring our next guest to the stage. By the way, if any of you are familiar with this event that allegedly happened at Burger King and can send me an article, I would love to have it.

[C]

You need to know.

[A]

I know in my mind it's real. I don't know. But that's all that matters. Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible sponsors small businesses who keep clothes horse going via their generous Patreon support. Slow Fashion Academy is a size inclusive sewing and pattern making studio based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Designer and fashion professor Ruby Gertz teaches workshops for hobbyists and aspiring designers so that anyone can learn the foundational skills of making, mending and altering their own clothes several times per year. Ruby offers her flagship Sloper Workshop, an in person two day pattern making retreat where you will learn how to drape a set of basic block patterns that capture your unique shape and proportions. You can also use these basic block or sloper patterns as a foundation for infinite styles of garments that are custom made to your body's one of a kind contours or compare your slipper to commercial patterns to see where you might need to alter the shape. No more guessing at full bust, flat seam or sway back adjustments. Start with a foundation that fits. Ruby also provides professional design and pattern making services to emerging slow fashion brands and occasionally takes commissions for custom garments and costume pieces. She has also released several PDF sewing patterns for original designs under her brands Spokes and Stitches and Starling Petite Plus. I just want to also add here on a personal note that right now Ruby is actually working with me to create a one of a kind unique to me that special dress that I will be wearing for all future clothes Horse events including live episodes later this year in the Pacific Northwest. I am so excited to work with Ruby because she is so talented and so knowledgeable about all things clothing creation. Check out the schedule for upcoming workshops, download PDF sewing patterns and learn about additional sewing and design services at www.slowfashion academy. And it's important for me to tell you that that's Slow Fashion Academy Selena Sanders A social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed, vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linens, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum Style Minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover [e-mail] late to the Party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage, salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold. Floral curtains, a childhood dress, the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room. All while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram latetothepartypeople Vino Vintage Based just outside of la, we love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on Instagra Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Paige is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us [e-mail] and find us on Instagram ylanpage life and style Salt Hats Purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram althats Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace located in the historic Eastern Market. Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online [e-mail] and find us on Instagram or at thumbprint Detroit. Vagabond Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale markets in San Francisco as well as at a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL location located in the Arts district of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram vagabondvintagedtlv and keep an eye out for their website. Coming fall of 2022. Okay, well, I'd like to bring to the stage our next guest, Kim. Kim is the owner of Heavy Duty Vintage, which she calls Curated Fat Vintage, and the founder of Fay Fest, Seattle's All Queer Renaissance Fair, which sounds like a dream come true to me. Very good. Well, welcome. Yeah, thank you all for coming out.

[B]

This is very fun.

[A]

I want to talk to both of you together about clothing, right? You know, I say all the time.

[B]

I know, it's all Janelle and I.

[A]

Talk about, great, great. So this will be really comfy. So I say all the time, it's more than just clothes, right? I. In the five years I've been making Clothes Horse, periodically, someone will reach out to me. Maybe someone I've dated, maybe not. And they're always male, by the way. And they will say to me, you know, I listened to half, half, half so charitable half an episode of Clothes Horse. And it was really good. You're really good at that. You're really smart. Why are you talking about clothes when you could be doing something important, right? And yeah, I mean, they need a stylist too, but. And I haven't called them out on that, is all I'm saying. But. But that, of course, obviously grinds my gears to the next level because. And I tell people this all the time, yes, we're talking about clothes. I don't want to talk about clothes every day. Because actually, what we're talking about is we're talking about human rights, right? We're talking about climate change, we're talking about workers around the world. We're talking about plastic pollution and all the sad, infuriating things. But so I always say, like, it's more than just clothes, right? I'M not just over here chit chatting about skirts.

[B]

But I would.

[A]

But when we were prepping for this episode, you said something, Kim, that was really interesting where you were talking about how forget about all the environmental ethical considerations around clothing, we all know them. You wouldn't be here if you didn't. You talked about the emotional and creative and psychological impact of clothing and I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. Well, both of you, because I know birds of a feather right here for sure.

[B]

Well, I grew up fat in a non fat household, so I didn't like clothing from day one was like political in every sense of the term. So like I, there was never a moment in my life in which clothing wasn't emotionally charged. So it's always like, it's funny to me when I'm talking to someone else and I can tell that they are glazing over or like judging me or like Kate Bush's this woman's work is just playing in my head as I'm just like wondering what next thing to say to them to like snap them back in. And it's always like the undercarriage of the thing that you're talking about where it's like, yeah, I'm talking about clothes, but what am I really talking about? And I'm really talking about what it's like to grow up fat and gay in 90s California when everyone hates you and tells you to die and you're an 8 year old. And then money and class and access and all the things that like so few people want to talk about environmental impact because it's like foreign aid, right? It's like something that's macro, that doesn't feel touchable or tangible on a daily basis. Whereas the money, the class, the social, the political, that's what you see in front of you, that's what impacts your decisions on a micro level every fucking day. So for me it's really easy to get into that because I'm like, what trauma? This is just at the top of the pie all day long. This is an unseated. I had to access it in therapy. This is all day long, every day. And yeah, it is just clothing, but it's like you could call it just clothing tm because there's a whole universe under this pair of pants.

[A]

Totally. I mean, I think when we have conversations about fast fashion or the ethical aspects of fashion online and people show up to be like, well we're doomed anyway, or there's no ethical consumption or capitalism. So tired of that. When people show up to Say that to end that conversation like I was talking about earlier. I think it's because changing up their relationship with clothing is really, really scary because we live in a society where that tells us every single day that what we buy and own is a direct reflection of who we are as people. And changing that up could feel like something is wrong with who you think you are. Right. It's so personal.

[B]

Image is so attached to clothing too. Or like the so I Heavy duty vintage is my plus size vintage business. And all day long people tell me what they think about their own body, whether or not I've consented to that conversation.

[D]

Dislike.

[C]

Dislike.

[B]

It's fine because, like, I do what I do because I want fat people to enjoy their bodies. And, like, I wouldn't make the choices I make and be as broke as I am on a daily basis if I didn't fucking love fat people and want us to love ourselves and just like. Or just be body neutral. Like, you don't have to be stoked on your image or your appearance or your body. But at the very least, like, don't wake up and look in the mirror every day and think, like, I'm fucked or I'm cooked or I'm doomed because I'm not a size 4 or whatever. Like, it's not only are there so many other things in the world to worry about, but also deal with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also, like, it doesn't have to be that way, but because clothing is just clothing. Tm, like, what we all actually have to do is develop a more meaningful relationship with our bodies because then that further develops senses of empathy and understanding, respect and seeing humanity in a Bangladeshi orphan who can't leave a factory until hour 13. And like, it doesn't seem like it's all connected, but, like, it's the Bing John Malkovich where, like, you enter the head and then you realize Kathryn Keener was there all along. And, like, why does John Cusack's hair grow like that? And it's like, oh, fuck. Like, there's so much more to this. And I thought I was just entering a store.

[A]

Okay. I think about that movie at least once a week. So I did not prompt this.

[B]

My default Halloween costume is John Malkovich, the intrepid puppeteer.

[A]

I love that.

[C]

I think that point, though, goes back to your introduction, Amanda, that it takes a lot of work and it's very inconvenient to do that kind of work. And the inconvenience requires a pause. And there's so much push towards the next the new the forward that it feels like, you know, you can't afford to stop. You gotta just keep moving. But you really do need to stop and slow down and. And look at yourself and look at where you're at and figure out what does and doesn't work for you, as opposed to continuing to reach outside and try to find something to slap onto you in order to figure out, am I good? Am I okay?

[A]

Is this enough?

[C]

It has to come from inside. And it's really scary and uncomfortable.

[B]

It's fucking terrifying. And, I mean, my two least favorite questions in the world are one, how did you get so confident? And two, where would I wear this? Because they're. They're just based in fear, and they're very, like, simply based in fear where, like, you don't even need to say the question. You can just, like, feel how it feels in your gullet and know that it's coming from a bad place. And, like, you don't. You don't need confidence to wear anything. Like, you. You just need to leave your house. Like, you just need to be like.

[A]

Or not, Or. Or you're not. Yeah, whatever the fuck. What kind of a shut in that would be? My.

[C]

My one pushback is, like, some things are in my closet because they're beautiful and they're pristine. And I know the minute I walk outside my apartment, I'm going to destroy it. And so it just needs to stay there because it's protected, and if it can stay safe, it can live longer.

[B]

Is the control issue, Janelle?

[C]

Yeah, just a little bit. Yes. Well, because I feel like my closet, I'm stewarding it for the future because I see. I view a lot of my clothing as being historical objects. And I'm so grateful for everyone who came before me and stewarded these things as long as they have. And I just want to make sure that someone like my niece could have access to, like, a really beautiful, immaculate 1930s dress that I know if I wore it, I would stink it up. I would rip it. I would accidentally start painting in it, and then it would just. It would be dead. Like, clothes come to die with me. And so there's like, some level of respect where it's like, well, where would I wear this? And sometimes, yeah, it's like, just in your bedroom for a minute. Look at yourself in the mirror. You look great. Now put it back in the closet.

[A]

Don't wear it to qfc.

[B]

Put it on and go to qfc. Just paint in it. Spill on it. It wants to be lived in. Oh, no, but that's also like. Clothing is like a weird little phantom until you put a body in it. And then once you put a body in a piece of clothing, all of a sudden it has a story, and it has a weird path and some kind of narrative that you get to create. And when you get to see in somebody's eyes that they now understand what that means because they're feeling themselves in something, that's worth every shitty, inconvenient, ethical decision I've ever had to make.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I will tell you, Janelle, back when we talked, I don't know, it was like, last year or something. Maybe it was earlier this year. Who knows? What is time? It's a construct. Anyway, we talked about your aunt's clothing and how she cared for it. Had a lot of it, many memories attached to it, and it kind of, like, healed something inside me because I have a lot of clothes. I have been collecting them since I was a teenager. I am a lifelong thrifter, so I have sick clothes, okay? And I don't want to throw them away. I don't want to give them away. I don't want to sell them. I want to have them and have them be mine. And do you know what I did after I talked to Janelle? I bought a bunch of rolling racks, and I set them up, and I hung up all of my clothes, and I go and look at them, and I wear stuff that I would not have worn before if they were packed up in bins. And I feel no shame for having a lot of clothes, because I'm taking care of them. I am the steward of these clothes. And I think that's something really important to talk about. When we talk about over consumption, we're not saying, oh, the way you don't over consume is by having five clothes. Like, listen, if y' all are wearing a capsule wardrobe, good for you. Congratulations. I cannot do it. I brought two outfits up here to Seattle for two days, and this morning, I was like, I don't want to wear either of these. I'm so sad I got no clothes. And I was like, I should just stay in bed all day, because I like to wear what feels inspiring to me that day. And it's really hard for me to predict what I'm gonna feel like the next day. Right. Which is why packing for a trip is always, like, a whole thing.

[B]

Yeah. In the biz, we call that neurodivergence.

[A]

Shocking. But it's true.

[B]

True, Right?

[A]

And I think, like, I just want to Underscore that again, is that you have a lot of clothes. I bet you have a lot of clothes.

[B]

So many piles.

[A]

Yes, Nivea, you have a lot of clothes.

[D]

I can neither confirm nor.

[A]

Okay, no shame. What we are talking about when we talk about over consumption is buying a ton of shit, barely wearing it, if at all, and then passing it on to the thrift store, the trash bin. That is gross and that is not okay. Having a lot of clothes. Go for it. You're keeping them out of the landfill. Someone else is gonna wear them someday if not you. Excellent.

[C]

My analogy is if you walk into someone's home and you see they've got two bookcases, no one is going to say, so, have you read all these books this year? You haven't? Well, you probably should get rid of the books you haven't read this year because why are you holding on to them like clothing is the exact same thing. It's holding information for me, for the future, and I can hold onto it as long as I want, even if I never wear it. My closet is a gallery and I go to peruse when I feel inclined. And it's safe there for when I want to come back. Just like a book, it's going to be on your shelf. You can flip through the pages, you can get the information out of it that you need, and you can put it back on your shelf. And no one is going to shame you for having too many books.

[B]

Well, it's also like a huge class resource and access issue where, like, we. My sister's here. We grew up thrifting at first because, like, our dad taught us how and we thought it was fun. And then he left and then it became a necessity to know how to thrift. And then also being fat and gay and being in 90s Silicon Valley and just being like, I don't know what a body is, but I've got this one. There were no options that like, made sense to me at the time. And like, I didn't. I don't come from like a super clothes horsey family. I have very stylish grandmothers, but they were in LA county. So I only had like a little bit of fantasy items from them. And even then, what they had was like, they had like 1940s, like silent film star bodies. So, like, not an option for me. And so everything I found that know you, that even vaguely resembled something I could wear outside and I wouldn't feel deep shame in, I hoarded because when you don't have a lot of options you hoard the possibility of something that could work. And so now, as a 35 year old who has access to every possible secondhand anything you could think of, I still have, like, I don't know, 12 respectable adults worth of closets in my house simply because it's like. But, like, if this one black dress doesn't work, these 77 other black dresses might. And, like, my brain just can't let go of the idea that, like, I'm this 12 year old who doesn't know what's going on. And so I need to just, like, have security in stuff. And I don't know if anyone here has read Tim o' Brien's the Things they Carried, but is a Vietnam War novel. That's incredible. But, like, the premise is like, what you. What you have defines you as a soldier and also forms, like, your emotional abilities based on how you carry them and what you're carrying. And obviously a slightly different analogy. But, like, when you grow up with limited resources, what you have defines how you take part in the world. So when you're a fat gay kid with not a lot of support, what I could wear and how I could show up in places was my only level of access, which means what I owned was my only ability to define myself. So, like, my style changed rapidly over very weird years because it was a lot of, like, this fat femme gave me a bandage skirt in 2006. But then I'm a weird teen Hescher, so I'm actually just wearing a lot of Iron Maiden T shirts that I stole from the merch table. So, like, we'll just kind of puzzle piece this fucking thing. And, like, thankfully, that's how I figured out my personal style, because I had to. But, like, the shame that comes with having too much or being too much because of what you own. So many of us do that because we have to for so long that it then defines us with or without our consent. So now if you feel financially secure, great. You're probably still gonna have weird layers of shame based on what's in your home. And, like, that's okay. Everyone has that to a certain extent. If I were Jeff Bezos and my house was filled with ugly fucking shirts, then I would feel a lot of shame. But I don't think that's something that man feels.

[A]

No. I mean, this shirt was really bad. No shame. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, with the jeans especially.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What you're for looking like they're both gray and boot cut. What are we doing here? But I've had, like, hookups come over to my place and be like, wow, you have a lot of clothes. And I've just been like, get out.

[C]

Like, this is never, you know, unless it's a compliment. Like, wow, you have a lot of clothes.

[B]

I just recently started dating someone who, when they came over for the first time, they were like, damn, your closet's incredible.

[D]

And I was like, okay.

[A]

I was going to say, I almost hooked up with someone once just because they said, I bet your closet is awesome. I did want to find out exactly. Okay, I'm gonna come out into the audience and take some questions, so if you have one, raise your hand. Hi, I'm Colleen.

[C]

First things first. I just want to say thank you.

[A]

I love Heavy Duty Vintage. I have the most amazing pair of.

[C]

Shorts that were curated by you of obsessed with them.

[A]

And my partner and I, we both came to the Seattle Fat Mall for the first time this past fall. And on our way home on the bus, we both cried. Just like, being in a place that's.

[B]

So amazing and growing up plus size.

[A]

It'S just like, it was a really beautiful experience. I think my question now is I feel confused about my gender, which.

[C]

That's not the question.

[A]

The question.

[B]

It's more of a comment than a question. Walk us through your gender identity, Colleen. Let's get into it.

[C]

I'm not trying to derail anything, and.

[B]

Also, I'm not trying to overshare because I feel like now I'm doing that.

[C]

Thing where you just talked about, but I'm saying, like, how do you guys have any tips on, like, how to.

[A]

Create a personal style? Like, I'm having a hard time, like.

[C]

Curating my style now that I see.

[B]

Myself a little bit differently.

[A]

And I think, like, looking at that also from, like, a lens of being plus size, too, like, is making it even harder.

[B]

So any tips would be amazing.

[C]

And you both have amazing styles, so.

[B]

I'd love to have your tips. Thanks, Colleen. That's really sweet. I came out to my parents as non binary before I came out as queer. So I think just like, growing up, I just knew this was something else. And also growing up fat and queer and not having any, like, role models or anyone to look to for advice or really any information of any kind on either of those things. I just knew that, like, I didn't fit feminine, at least defined by, like, the very WASPy household I was raised in. And then I didn't fit masculine because I was short and fat and queer. So I was just kind of like, okay, just gonna, like, wear a Bunch of things and like see what sticks. And it really helped just plunging myself into as many like quote unquote community spaces as possible and just like being a little sponge and soaking up whatever I could from like. Spent a lot of time in San Francisco as a teenager. I worked for needle exchange. I met people who I would have never otherwise come across who taught me so much about my gender and my sexuality and how to be in the world. Wow, I didn't think I would get weepy on that one. Because we hold a lot of power in our identities and when you think it's just about just clothing tm, you're missing the weird cobbled together journeys that everyone has to take in order to get to any semblance of personal understanding. So with that statement, I would say be nice to yourself. You're not gonna hit it every day. And I care about comfort. As a kid I didn't know that I had a bunch of neurodivergencies co mingling. So I didn't understand why everything felt awful on my body. And I thought it was all mental, emotional. It turns out I have really sensitive stuff skin. So a lot of it was like an actual tactile issue where like I would put like I. I don't shop fast fashion partially because it's an ethical choice, but also cuz it'll give me a rash. True. So like yeah, a lot of it is just like this hurts quite literally and I have to take it off. So I would say going from like physical comfort as your base of like, like if you're trying to dress more femme, but like dresses don't feel right to you, that's okay. Like you don't ever have to put on a dress if a dress feels strange. If you put on a piece of clothing and you look in the mirror and you think that's not me looking back. Take off whatever the fuck you just put on. But with that being said, you also have to experiment. Like you have to push your own envelope. You have to like get kind of weird with it and just see like, maybe job purrs are a Tuesday thing. Don't worry about it. Just try it once or twice. And like, because like fear is at the base of it, right? So it's like test your own fear. Talk to people you wouldn't otherwise, like maybe glean information from. Take it from me. Crying in public. It can be really powerful when you learn from strangers that like A, your body's great, B, you're not doing anything wrong and see, you can Literally, do whatever the fuck you want whenever you want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, I don't know. I mean, all that is to say also, like, I've always been fat, so, like, my body's never been. Like, I grew up being told that my body was the problem, and then I figured out, like, oh, no, my body's not the problem. It's, like, the place in which I live that's causing people to think that I'm the problem. And because I'm fat, anything I wear, I'll still look fat in. So consequently, I can wear whatever I want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, like, it's not the pants that make me look fat, you know? So, like, once you kind of take that layer away of, like, being afraid to look a certain way, it becomes a lot easier to be like, I guess I'm a vest faggot today. You know? And then, like, the next day you can be like, maybe a tool skirt, I don't know. Pair it with the vest, I don't know. And you can get a little more playful with it instead of. Even though it is, like, technically a serious identity journey, et cetera. Whatever I said earlier, you should play with it and you should experiment and you should try things. Because if you don't try things, then you lose out on a lot of things that are in the world that you might not have otherwise thought of. That was so much. I'm so sorry.

[A]

Great answer, though. Great. Five stars.

[B]

Yeah, you can ask my sister. I always cry about needle exchange. Very pro heart production.

[A]

Okay, let's see. Haley, you have a question I wanted to ask.

[C]

So I also grew up gay in a time and a place.

[B]

Not great.

[C]

Zero out of ten.

[B]

Maggie and I've get two.

[C]

But I really like celebrating those moments.

[B]

We found in those times of queer joy. And so I just wanted to ask.

[C]

If there was, like, a garment or a time, because you talk about clothes being sentimental, and I feel very much.

[B]

The same as a queer person.

[C]

If there was, like, a garment or a time or a place that you just was like, this is it. Which is a hard question.

[B]

Well, I mean, Janelle is part of one of the thoughts I just had where my sister Brooke and I have this incredible grandma Judy. And Judy was excellent style, truly excellent style. And when she died and we cleaned out her house, we found so many wild things that have just been shoved into drawers for the last 30 years. And part of, like, healing through that grieving process was bringing a lot of those pieces of Judy's to Janelle to have Janelle make pieces through Wardrobe therapy. So that way I could have pieces that I know are Judy's and, like, are thus very impactful for me, but are more towards, like, Maya and Janelle's style. So they feel like weird little community outlet pieces instead of, like, you know, a Talbot's silk top that's, like, I could never wear. And also, like, wouldn't really want to because I would just feel like I was cosplaying as Judy rather than, like, feeling her essence or whatever. And also, Judy was very pro me being queer, so she was very supportive. And she referred to my sister Broken Eyes as her daughters. And then when she was feeling frisky, she'd be like, or maybe you're my son. And I would just be like, great, your actual son sucks. So I will be that. And then other than that, there's pieces that I've, like, that have been given to me by friends who aren't with us anymore that are very. Like, sometimes I'll wear them or I'll just, like, hang them up as art in my home just so I have them with me. And then I also make my own clothes. I made these last summer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think sewing is a really powerful skill set, and as something that's been deemed woman's work for a very long time, it is inherently queer and how it changes your situation and how you adapt to the tools that you have and the resources you have. And I would highly recommend taking up sewing or taking sewing workshops with Shiv Tian, who runs New Affection. It's an incredible skill set, and it makes me feel more queer to create things that work better for my body and for my identity.

[D]

My name is Mars.

[A]

I'm queer.

[D]

But it has nothing to do with my question. Just want to put myself on the spectrum, I guess. I'm here with my mama, Sarah, and.

[A]

She has this amazing vintage collection. She's been thrifting since she was a teenager. Purses, clothes, everything. And I wanted to ask how you balance stewardship with. Also, like, clothes are much to be worn, because this is, like, kind of.

[D]

An ongoing conversation sometimes.

[B]

Because, like, I am not.

[A]

I don't know. Sometimes I want to wear something, and.

[D]

My mom's like, that's very precious. And I'm like, you're so right.

[A]

You're so right.

[B]

It's really cute, though. Okay, I'll start on this. Janelle will finish it, I think. I think the idea of being, like, a steward of things never really occurred to me in my own life. It's more like I'm just like, A weird little gremlin in a lighthouse. And sometimes people visit me and I put a cardigan on them and that's nice. But I think of clothing as like real living things, and I want them to be in my life. And so I do feel like clothing should be worn. But at the same time, like, I'm. I'm that same weird little lighthouse gremlin and I'm going to spill coffee on it and I'm going to trip on it and I'm five foot two, Shit's going to drag. I'm going to have to rip the bottom off. If it rains, it's Seattle. And so, yeah, it's like you kind of have to decide, like, what is the value of something to me sitting in my closet versus on my body out in the world? And if that value is higher because it makes you feel something on your body and when you're with people, then you should put it on your body and go wear it. If you put something on and it makes you feel paranoid or worried, that's probably how you're gonna feel wearing it to whatever thing you were gonna wear it to. And you don't wanna much like not letting perfect be the enemy of the good. You don't want your concern for an object to overshadow your experience as a living being.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if the dress is valuable and that's all you're gonna think about and you're trying to wear it to your friend's birthday party, maybe put on something else and go enjoy the party.

[C]

Yeah. I feel like I experienced this with my aunt because she passed on to me a lot of items that were really precious to her. And she said, please don't sell this. I got this here. I wore this there. She would have the hang tag still. And I had to make very clear to her that you are passing this item on to me like this is a torch. It was yours. We both love it. But I am going to choose how I live with it. So in your relationship, kind of navigating that transition of it was your mom's and now it's yours, there really has to be a relinquishing of if it's no longer your mom's, it's yours now, and you get to do exactly what you want to do with it. And some of the things that my aunt gave me, they're super cute floral denim shorts. I wear them all the time when I'm riding my bike. They're absolutely ragged. I've had to pat them at least four different times. The fronts are fully shredded right now and I will never show them to my aunt because she would be appalled. But I actually love them more because I've lived so much in them. And for me, the distinction is I have clothes that are precious and I, I value and I appreciate and I view as art objects. And I have other garments that I have sacrificed to live in and I want them to look like I lived in it, so they wear all of that evidence. So that's how I've navigated both stewarding garments and living in garments. Like, I live hard in the garments I live in because it's tied to the way that I work. And I see those as my work uniforms. And then there's these other pieces that are really precious. So I would just say, you know, maybe you have to write a contract with some of the garments, but otherwise there's, there's like a legal passing of the torch, you know, like, mom, this was yours and now it's mine. And so, hands off. I get to do what I want. And if I'm going to spill on it, if I'm going to rip it up, if I'm going to cut it in half, that's my prerogative. And there has to be support because I'm stewarding things that I have no control over how they're going to be used in the future. Like they could get destroyed by someone else, but at least I gave them the opportunity to be the one to destroy a pristine thing. I didn't give them something that was semi mangled and now they're really going to wreck it. I gave them perfect condition to thrash.

[B]

A real opportunity.

[C]

It's a real opportunity. That's what my aunt gave me. She gave me perfect condition clothing to thrash and I have loved every minute of it.

[A]

Yeah, I love that because I do think, like, what makes our clothes extra precious to us is what we did while we were wearing them and the people we met and the stories we can tell from that. And I just, it's so cynical. But, you know, I've sat through many, like trend concept meetings in my career where we were tasked with creating brand new clothes that would seem to have stories always attached already attached to them. Like you could look as if you'd lived in them and really lived. And that's so depressing, right? But the reality is that many of our clothes that are so precious to us, even the ones we maybe don't wear very often, it's because of how we felt when we wore them or what we saw or who we kissed or the music we heard. Or maybe we ate a really good tuna melt, I don't know. But the clothes are more than just the clothes, as we've been saying. If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Clothes Horse is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses. Please go give them your support. Blank CAS or Blanket Coats by CAS is focused on restoring, renewing and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram @blankcas and a website will be launched [e-mail] located in Whistler, Canada. Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a vegan cafe and lots of rad products from other small sustainable businesses. Our mission is to create a brand and community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram opvelvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com Republica Unicornia yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color obsessed. Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen. Get ready for rainbows with a side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicaunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. picnic Wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion Designer for over 10 years, but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic Wear offers minimal waist and maximum authenticity. Future vintage over future garbage. Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space. With the Pewter thimble, we source useful and beautiful things and mend them where needed. We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures available to you from the comfort of your own home, responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco and it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive and high quality. Made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled and if not, can it be recycled? Sign [e-mail] to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com all right, I looked at my thrifted clock radio here on the stage in case if you were wondering what that was. Because as you know, Clothes Horse likes a long episode and I'm realizing it is time for us to bring up our final guest, Nivi. Nivi is the founder of Soapbox Project, the world's most joyful community for climate action. Yeah.

[D]

Woo.

[A]

All right, so Nivee, you are working actively to combat the ultimate source of doom. Well, okay, actually a year ago I might have been. Climate change is the ultimate source of doom right now. But there's a few other things are getting ahead of it in line. But your goal is to keep people hopeful and activated. How do you do that?

[D]

It's super easy.

[A]

Yeah. Figure.

[D]

I mean the good news is we have a lot of problems to choose from. Right?

[A]

So hashtag blessed.

[D]

Well, seriously, like the better news is when you have climate anxiety, part of or anxiety in the human brain comes from uncertainty. We struggle with uncertainty of the future and I find That I have a lot less climate anxiety these days than climate rage. Because when there are so many problems that exist in the world, you can just pick something. And I really like what you said in the beginning of this as certain conversation enders, because the people that are, we can't solve anything, we're cooked. They're seeing a million different problems and refusing to do anything. They're refusing to grow like one tomato plant for the community and their planter. And yeah, so I guess to answer your question, I have found that my, my biggest care in life was not fighting the climate crisis. My biggest care in life was and continues to be hanging out with my friends and yapping. And I didn't want to be an activist. I just wanted to be a girl. However, the fate of the planet was really interfering with my ability to vibe and hang out with my friends. And so I was thinking, like, why does activism have to be this whole march and this whole protest situation? And why am I always feeling, why am I always in these spaces where I feel judged? I don't know if any of you have had this experience, but for a long time I was living in San Francisco too, and I wasn't like woke enough or I didn't know, you know, every single person in the House of Representatives and what their names were and who their children were. And I was like, I don't want to do this. I want to hang out with my friends. So the whole ethos of Soapbox, which is the community that I run, the world's most joyful community spaces for climate action, starting with Seattle, is a place where you can just hang out every single week if you like the connotation of this. It's basically climate church. And you can come every single week, have dinner, because who wants to think about plans for how they're going to feed themselves on a Tuesday night? So come hang out with us, have dinner, and then we, as the Soapbox staff and volunteer to get team, will tell you some fun and meaningful activities to do so that you can just focus your brain on chit chatting and eating food and having fun while sneakily doing activism. And I find that because I go either as an organizer or a guest almost every single week, having that consistency and seeing the people around me not give up gives me a lot of hope. Because even if it's like, who knows what's gonna happen 100 years from now, right? But I'm not giving up on the people around me and I'm not giving up on this group project to save the world. And it is about the friends you make along the way.

[A]

So it truly is.

[D]

I've really been loving that. And there's no such thing as failing for what we've done already. We've helped chefs and photographers and DJs launch their careers, starting only in January by just giving people spaces. We threw an awesome gala on Friday that Janelle gave us so many garments to screen print on. Similar, kind of similar to what's happening outside. So it's just been like, there's no failing. We're doing it here and we are cultivating each other's imagination. And I forgot which one of you, I think you were saying this. Anything is possible and you can do anything. And why can't that thing be hanging out and doing fun activism instead of sitting on your couch and doom scrolling? That's like, boring.

[A]

Yeah, I don't want to do that.

[D]

That's boring.

[B]

We're all broken, depressed. You can still do whatever the fuck you want.

[D]

That's not original also, right? Like, whatever. We get it. You can doom scroll great.

[A]

Like, yeah, congrats. You can parrot the same, like, doomer language over and over again. Like, whoever said there's no ethical consumption under capitalism on Twitter, like, like, I don't know, five years ago, should seriously be getting royalties at this point. But every time someone says it online, you get the vibe that they think they were the first person. And like, we should all be like, mega upvote. Wow, Where'd you come up with that?

[B]

You know, it's definitely the same white guy who invented anarchism.

[A]

Oh, don't get me started. That would be a whole other episode.

[B]

But, yes, actually anarchist and dickelist.

[A]

So. But, like, how about we make doomerism not cool, okay? Like, because guess what? It's not cool and it's boring.

[D]

And it makes you boring. It makes you boring. I don't wanna hang out with someone that's just like, oh, we're so screwed. My latest, I have some internal rules that have helped me grow as a human being. Like, back in 2019, maybe I decided I needed to stop fighting with men on the Internet.

[A]

Oh, man, I'm still going strong.

[D]

I feel I've broken it once this year, but generally I've been really good about it. And my. The more recent thing is I'm done talking to people that, like, know everything about politics. And, you know, they're like, obsessed with Zoran. I love that, by the way. But, like, they're not doing anything and they're only talking about how, oh, Everything's so depressing. Like, who cares about. That's so boring to me. I'm just like, I don't want to.

[C]

Hang out with you.

[D]

You have no original thoughts. Go find some original thoughts and then we'll talk.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I do think, like I said, every time someone parrots these things online, they think they're gonna get like a prize. Like someone's gonna show up in a cake and jump out and be like, you were the smartest, coolest person on the Internet, Congrats. But it's like, nah, dude, you're boring. So something we, the four of us talked about when we were prepping, we kind of went on a little bit of a tangent. But I, I promise it ties into all this is we talked about convenience and convenience culture. And when we talk about people ending the conversation. Because change, the unknown is frightening. One of the things that comes up all the time is how inconvenient change would be. And someone said at some point on the Internet, who knows, probably 100,000 people said it, but they were like, convenience is not a human right. I would say also like, convenience forces us to lower our standards and compromise our values. But it is in fact true that change might feel inconvenient, at least at first. And I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that.

[B]

I have a very relevant thought to this week specifically, which is that Amazon web services shut down on Monday and Tuesday and like all of a sudden every asshole uses Alexa to turn their fridge on, couldn't get food. So like, what is truly convenient to you?

[A]

Oh my gosh, think of all the automatic cat food feeders that went down too. Or like the Roombas that you can like see on an apple.

[B]

The little waterfall mountains. That's dark.

[A]

I was upset because all my fonts disappeared from Photoshop. This sounds way worse.

[B]

Well, there's like, there's so like convenience is a myth, right? Like it's based on what you can afford, what you have access to, what your body physically is capable of, where you live in the world, et cetera. So if you think it's more convenient to have a bunch of Amazon service based things in your home, great, that works for you. I can't afford most of the Amazon based things to have in my home. And also I saw Smart House starring Katie Sagal and Ryan marrinnen in the 90s. So the idea that my, my evil stepmom is also the voice of my oven or whatever freaks me the fuck out. It's a horrible thing. Yeah. And also like not just aws, but, like, AWS is attached to Venmo. Like, Venmo went off the grid. And, like, I mean, fuck Venmo. Fuck all banks, period. And I say that as a small business person who operates as much under the table as I possibly can. But, like, I was working the Oddities and Curiosity Curiosities Expo on Sunday for my work wife, Steph, who produces Faith Fest. They're unfair with me. And thankfully, she transferred all of her that night because the next day, Venmo was down for, like, 27 hours. And so all these people who use Venmo as their, like, secret hidden bank couldn't access rent money or grocery money or things that you think are just like. Just yours because it's on your little phone. And it's like, no. Our phone footprint is like. Like, the biggest thing about us because it interweaves us into this weird cybersecurity net that we're all a part of. That when I talk about, I sound nuts, but it's all real, which is deeply unfortunate because he's sweaty, you know, something glitches, or some intern pushes a button, and all of a sudden, millions of people can't open their fridge. So if it's convenient to you, use the things that work for you, that you can afford and that you can access. But how are you actually defining convenience? And, like, for me, it's convenient to see cash in my wallet and then go buy groceries with it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's so true. I mean, when we were all talking, we were prepping for this. I told you about the one and only time I ever used Instacart in 2020, which is that, you know, we're vegetarians, so we eat a lot of vegetables. And every single vegetable that was on my list, which was honestly most of the order, the shopper substituted frozen peas. And so, like, 10, 15 bags of frozen peas showed up. And, you know, it's like, peak pandemic. Like, we can't just run out real quick and grab a zucchini. And I was like, wow. Like, I guess this was convenient in that, like, I didn't have to put on shoes, but it's really inconvenient that I have to eat frozen peas in every meal for the next, like, two weeks. And that's, like, a ridiculous example of it. But the fact that we can sit on our couch and doom scroll and then take a break to buy some new clothes or some random Amazon stuff or, I don't know, I have, like, a beef with Funko Pops and I just had to say that, but, like, that we could just scroll conveniently and get more.

[B]

More.

[A]

That doesn't really make us that happy. That isn't that great. That's another example of convenience making us, I don't know, sacrifice quality things like sacrifice our true happiness. Because we think convenience is the win.

[D]

Yeah. And convenience is the opiate of the masses. You know, that's really what. That's really what it is. And something that I've been thinking about a lot is with one of the questions from earlier about, like, inspiring your kids. I've been recently thinking of just, like, my own self and the human being that I would be proud of. And I am proud to be a person that will pick my friends up at the airport. And I am proud to be someone that if I need help, I will have friends that will help me. And this gala that we threw over the weekend, we got so much stuff lent to, like, Janelle did, like, lent to us or given to us for free. And none of that was convenient for anybody involved. And it was, like, probably, quite frankly, annoying for a lot of people doing all the logistics. And it was annoying for me because we could have just one click, checked out the whole thing and, you know, done it that way. But just really thinking of, I would much rather be a person that struggles through the inconvenience, and I would much rather be a person that is a little bit depressed all the time than just let the convenience wash over me.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Because, like, this is the thing that's so tricky about Community is I think it's hard to know that you need it if you don't have it, because it is pretty easy to, like. I think most people that are lonely are not. I know the times when I've been lonely, I haven't been like, oh, I'm lonely today. I've just been like, something feels bad in my tummy and I'm just gonna watch a movie or, you know, doom scroll. And I think it's really, really hard to pull yourself out of that. But it starts with determining what you want. Like, yes, the planet is burning because of billionaires, but also, like, who is the type of person that you want to be? And it is really about modeling that inconvenience. And, like, you know, the conversation with AI always goes a bunch of different ways. But again, like, I'm proud of writing my own emails and not letting my brain rot and, like, talking to my friends and solving my problems by talking to my friends. Like, so I think part of resisting it's really, really easy to get trapped into convenience. And I think the farther in it you are, like, having been there, the farther in it you are, the harder it is to get out of it internally. But I think that that's, like, one question I want to, I guess, pose just generally to your brains, is like, who is the person that you want to be? And what does that have to do with changing your relationship to convenience? Because I would rather be inconvenienced and. And the person I am today.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I would.

[C]

Yeah, I was definitely inconvenienced by having you come to my studio and having to drag seven 10 pound bags of T shirts out of my closet. Janelle is so strong so that you could go through them. And it's also incredibly inconvenient to be the dumping ground for clothing swaps in the Seattle area. And that's the only reason why I have all those T shirts, is because someone calls me up every other month and says, hey, we've got some leftovers. Do you want them? And I'm like, absolutely not. I'll take them.

[A]

And I just take them all on.

[C]

And I sort them out and I wait for people to call me, like you, who say, hey, I need a bunch of T shirts for a thing. I'm like, come over. You have to look for them yourself. But I will haul them out of my closet. And. Because I feel like embracing inconvenience, convenience is an embrace of creativity. Like, it allows me the opportunity to think in a new way and to see through a new lens so that all of this garbage that people are imposing on me, it's not a waste. It's an opportunity for me to connect with other people and to share resources and to utilize the space that I have. So I'm really. I'm often very grateful for inconvenience because I also got to see you that day and we got to chat and complain about being grumpy and being small business owners and how, like, infuriating that can be. And I feel like inconvenience, it breeds creativity as much as it reinforces connection. Because I don't have a smartphone and I never have. I just have a flip phone. And so it's very inconvenient to be out in the world and lost.

[D]

But it means I get to call.

[C]

My mom when I need somebody to Google how to get from A to B and say, mom, this is where I'm at. Tell me how to get to where.

[D]

I want to go.

[C]

And that's a point where I can say, and how's your day? How have you been?

[D]

What's going on?

[C]

Like, it's opportunity for connection because it's incredibly inconvenient.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, people news here, people are really inconvenient. Right. Getting together with people can be really convenient because you're like tired or you're busy or you have to park the car, or we all have that friend who's 30 minutes late no matter how much we try to trick them to be on time. Sometimes people talk about things that are boring. Sometimes people are talking over you or eat all your food when they could have ordered some for themselves. There's like a million ways in which people are inconvenient. Yet I'll tell you that our desire for convenience isolates us from other people, which makes it a lot easier to just be like, we're doomed. I don't care. We're all doomed. Fuck all these people. Because we're all doomed anyway. Because you no longer recognize the humanity around you. And apparently you're really hungry because you have a smart fridge, which is a nightmare. Okay, I'm gonna. Because I'm keeping an eye on the clock. I'm gonna come out and take some more questions. For anyone. It could be any of my lovely guests. So go ahead and raise your hand. Oh, it's Christine. You were so, like, shadowy up there. Okay, I'm coming, I'm coming. Okay, I had a question about vintage sourcing. Especially with plus sized, it's always been kind of a challenge to seek it out and find it because, you know, I think it's mostly, I find a lot of the smaller pieces were just worn less and that's why they're passed on. And you find them in impeccable condition and it's harder to source the larger items.

[B]

I end up going to menswear a.

[A]

Lot and then I find other vintage.

[B]

Dealers just ignore larger sizes anyway.

[A]

I've even worked in stores where they were like nothing over a 34 inch waist because it doesn't fit on a.

[B]

Hanger, you know, And I'm like, I.

[A]

Want to be a representation for the things I'm selling. And I just, I don't know, I want a little bit to go out to the audience and the people listening later at home about inspiration on how to seek that out.

[B]

Yeah, totally. I mean, yeah, just from like a historical and like class access perspective. When people say, like, oh, plus size vintage, that's so cool.

[D]

Cool.

[B]

It just like, doesn't exist. Have you ever considered why that would be like, what would lead something to just be a ghost mystery? And the answer is fat people have fewer resources and our pay equity is shit. So historically, fat people are afforded less and can afford less. So true plus size, which is historically also been above a 12, now it's a 14, 16 and above would find the thing that they can wear. And so they would wear it until it literally disintegrated off their body. And then they go, guess I'll die because I have nothing else to wear. So when Mohai did their Seattle Hundred Years of Seattle Style exhibit back in 2018, 2019. Thank you. I did an event celebrating that exhibit called Big Mood with my life partner, best friend, older brother Adria, who owns Indian Summer, a vintage store on the hill. And the very sweet curators were like, what do you have to contribute? Like, we've been looking for all these things and the pieces they had. I mean, they got Lindy West's wedding dress, which great dress, but it's contemporary. And they'd been able to find like two things that were maybe like a contemporary size 20 and even that they were like so excited for. And I like lent them some stuff for the thing. And it's like, it's a weird puzzle because you want to find things that you know, exist out in the world, but then you also don't want to limit other people's access to things. And like, I'm not trying to just hoard a bunch of inventory and be like, smog on my gold pile or whatever. Like, I want fat clothes to be on fat bodies. So like, I usually go to estate sales one because thrifting as a business is not cost effective. And also I'm a fat broke person in a thrift store trying to dissociate my afternoon away. I'm not trying to take options away from other fat broke people in thrift stores doing the same. So I like going out kind of as far as I can and as wide as I can and to as many less trafficked sources just because there are fewer intrepid fat vintage sellers going out there. So at least I can like find things and bring them back to more trafficked arenas like my own retail space or Bon Voyage or Friend Museum in Pioneer Square where I also sell. But I also just encourage like getting into like the journey of it. And like, though it sucks to be put in a position of being like, wow, the fat tax of just not having as much stuff to choose from really sucks. And not to be like, attitude reframe. But you can have a Lot of fun in figuring out what works best for you and how you enjoy sourcing things, buying, figuring out online auction sources, going to your own estate sales, going to friends who work in retail and seeing what their rag warehouse connections are using. Facebook Marketplace. Fuck meta. But I kind of love Facebook Marketplace and also just like going to vintage stores and talking to the people who own and run them about what they do and where they find their stuff. And like, yeah, some people are gatekeepy, but that's usually like depop hyper beast culture. And like, I don't know about you, I don't need a $200 Looney Tunes T shirt. So like there are people who have done this for a long time, way longer than I have, who, who get entrenched in those sourcing journeys and can share a lot of information. I'm a big like go out and try for yourself person. And I know not everyone is, which is why I do what I do. Because on an access level, I want to get as much fat people clothing in one space so that if you're a size 36 and you know that if you go to a Goodwill, there is going to be any size 36 denim, you can walk into my heavy duty space and there's at least like two or three jean options for you, plus a sundress and a cardigan or whatever. So yeah, it's a, it's a weird line to walk because I'm not trying to be like, I can't think of another dragon, but hoarding inventory but then also like there you. I do also try to like grab as many far out resources as possible and bring them to a city center. Because also fat shopping is destination shopping. So it's rare for just like a plus size option to be at a strip mall or if you have an like if I was talking to a customer the other day who lives in Anchorage and they were like, like, yeah, I mean we have Tord and Lane Bryant, but like.

[A]

Yeah, great.

[B]

And like what are the other options? Walmart and Target. Great. So they were saying like, yeah, because I'm like in Alaska, there's just like no one's coming out to us. So I have to come in to bigger cities, to more metro areas that have more options. And I get a lot of customers who are from like, like Monroe or I don't know, name a town. And they're coming in because they can't find it in their own space. So I try to find it, bring it to my space and hopefully people hear about me and can Come do the same, Alexandra.

[C]

Oh, I'm a little nervous talking to the microphone. So my question is, we're all talking about all the sacrifices you make as a small business owner. And this is, I think, a common theme across like climate jobs. Like they're generally less paid than if.

[A]

You were to go work on Wall Street. So how do you balance your own.

[B]

Sustainability for like your own financial well being, your mental well being, while continuing.

[C]

To do these things that are so impactful for the community?

[B]

I know that's a terrible question, but I think many of us relate to.

[C]

Like wanting to do all these amazing things that are really what the world.

[B]

Needs while sort of swimming upstream.

[D]

Look, I think the most important thing.

[A]

Oh, wait, time out.

[B]

We have a Brenda, 90s protagonist. Wait, Brenda. Brenda.

[A]

No. Well, yeah, yeah, you know what? Read, read. Just so everyone you can gloat.

[B]

Okay, we have video.

[D]

Should we applause for the.

[A]

Oh, Brenda.

[C]

Brenda is included.

[A]

I guess she has to be included. She's the middle.

[C]

Okay, Vintage Halloween. Brenda, Climate change and Dustin.

[B]

Great shout out. Dustin.

[C]

Brenda.

[A]

Okay, now answer the question, which we've probably all forgotten, which is basically.

[D]

I know it. How do you, how do you do.

[A]

This is the question.

[D]

Okay, listen, look, look, look. Okay, I. I really think the most important thing is to do exactly what you're doing and calibrate as much as you can. Because I had the same question and people were just lying to me for a while and being like, I'm fine. And then I.

[B]

Have you tried wearing linen?

[D]

And then I stopped talking to venture backed tech bros. So first of all, if you ever want to want an honest person to have this conversation with, talk to me. But for right now, like, part of it is so I have the privilege and resources, like not a ton, but I worked in tech for three years and I was miserable. I hated it. I started Soapbox because I was having an existential crisis and I just felt horrible. And then I was like, I would literally rather get hit by a car than do this every single day. And then, and then later that day, I got hit by a car.

[A]

I don't know why I'm laughing. I'm sorry, but they laugh now that.

[D]

It'S done, it's really funny. But then I was like, okay, I will do anything to stop feeling this way. So I guess the first thing is you need to figure out on the spectrum of climate jobs or sustainable fashion jobs or whatever, what is worth it to you and be real with yourself. Because for me, I was like, I can, I will burn through these Savings before I have to get another corporate job and thankfully before I had to burn through those savings. Things have recently started to work out. But to be very honest with you, from 2020 to 2024. So for four years I went without a paycheck. I did paid myself $0 from Soapbox. I nannied for a while. I had unemployment for a while. I did some community strategy work for a while. But all of this was just knowing again, like, this is what I believe in this idea. I really, really think that people need community spaces to gather for climate action that are joyful. And I was like, I really do think this is a. If you build it, they will come. Because I'm also building it with other people. I'm not just some random dude that's like, I'm gonna raise $2 million for a domain name. So I think it comes down to figuring out what your personal Runway is not just with finances, but also with the other resources in your life. And something that I think about a lot is if I run out of money, people are not going to let me starve. Like the three of my friends in the front row, they might be really annoyed if I crash on their couch for a month, but they would probably not kick me out onto the street. And so really just like taking stock of, I was, I was thinking to myself, like, I am unique in this. Unique because I'm like really a random everyday person. I don't have special skill sets other than hanging out with friends and planning parties, which is now my job, which I didn't know was a skill set. But I do have the ability to go, I can go four years without a paycheck. So long story short is like, take stock of what it is you need to do. And I think a lot of people will lie to you and be like, you can make so much money in climate work. They're talking about the type of climate work that is aligned with the resources of capitalism and the incentives of capitalism. And I don't think that is always a bad thing. Like, I have friends that work at a company called Carbon Collective that the fossil fuels your 401k and that's great and they are doing well. But most jobs that are, that are building the new world that we want and we deserve to live in, they are not aligned with the incentives of the current system. So you need to figure out the incentives for yourself and then find people that, that really know that like 80% of the journey is crying in the corner. But like the 20% of the wins are going to be so worth it if you've decided that this is better than the stomach ache of going to your corporate job every day.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that is so true. I just want you all to know that my retirement plan is. I'm gonna come and live with all of you individually for a week at a time, but I am a thousand times happier than when I was working in a corporate environment because I feel like. And this could be just like some really intense narcissism that everyone's afraid to tell me, but I feel like the work that I'm doing is important and does have an impact. And when I was spending the day deciding which inseam of skinny jeans we should buy the most of, I didn't get that feeling at all. So.

[B]

Also, it's never the right one.

[A]

It's never. It's always the wrong one. Yeah. Okay, well, we have to wrap things up here, so I just wanted to ask the three of you, listen, shit sucks, okay? I have feel like I never don't have a stomachache anymore or a panic. And I, like, have cried multiple times about maybe not having health insurance next year. So, you know, it's tough. I think we all feel that. What keeps you optimistic, hopeful? What keeps you going right now? Nothing. Okay, cool. Well, bye, guys.

[B]

I was just asking about which order we wanted to start.

[A]

I need a minute.

[D]

I'm happy to kick us off. And I'll rewind one step of that question with saying that we need to create the things that keep us hopeful. My latest rant that's been ongoing for a couple years now is the spoils of colonization are the fracturing of community, of our relationships with each other and our land and our imagination. And so I don't think we can have a conversation about hope without having a conversation of how much we are lacking in imagination. Because convenience, all of the things we've talked about. So I think where it starts for me is really figuring out how to. How do we nourish these positive visions of what is possible? And, you know, for me, that starts with, I think dystopia needs to die. I think, done. I'm done with dystopia. Like, I'm only interested in solarpunk and protopian art and book books and movies. And, like, we need to. We are only feeding the. The narratives that talk about how bad things are. And then when I talk to other people about my. My shitty little planter with my tomatoes growing freely, where, like, five neighbors really cherish this plant, that is a Small representation of what the world could be. So I guess like what keeps me hopeful in part is the creation of hope alongside the community and the fact that every single week I have a place to go to where people are sharing ideas and it's rooted in art and music and food, which is creative. Like that is creating even a recipe. It's like, I didn't know this existed. Now I can make it at home. Now I can eat more plant based. So really feeding that, like actively feeding that hope, it's not gonna feed itself. Like doom scrolling is gonna kill it. And so I think for me it is, it is the hard work and the joyful rigor of making sure I leave my house and talk to people that want to keep hope alive and also with people that are making these very real sacrifices. Because I'm like, if my friends over here are also exploiting their own labor, I'm gonna be part of the club because it's cute and fun. So, yeah, just like community and continuing to feed our imagination.

[B]

Yeah, I love that I exist purely out of spite. So hope and optimism are not words I use on a regular basis. But like, if something's horny or if I could do something for the bit, that's my reason to get out of bed in the morning. And I also just like, I don't know, growing up I was told no so many times that I just. That word stopped holding any meaning. So when someone tells me that something's not possible now as an adult, I'm like, But like, are you smart enough to know that for sure or have you even tried? Because like, again, not to always go back to fear, but like, a lot of times people say no because they're afraid that it won't work. So they haven't even tried. And like, who am I? Just some white dipshit? Like, I'll whatever, I'll try. Like, my ego's so inflated already I can take a hit. Let's go. So like, it's worth just like being alive, trying a new thing. If it doesn't work great. If it does work great. Now you have an option. Now you have an option. You can share with other people and you can brag about how you did it and it works so great. If. And if it doesn't work, then you try something else. And that's what tomorrow is for. If you did it and it failed today, take the L, make a soup, get edible high, go to bed, that's okay. Watch something, it's fine. Like, not every day has to be Some like, beautiful horse running through a sunny meadow. Look at you go. Some days suck shit. And like, that. That's life, baby. You know, like, and that's part of, like, the cutting down. The like, we're cooked narrative is like, we're cooked means that we're certain that everything is as it is and nothing will ever change and nothing will ever be new or different. We don't know shit about shit. Anything could change at any moment. Uncertainty and chaos and change are the true constants. And to some, that is panic inducing. To me, as a Sagittarius with adhd, that is very calming because it means that things that are bleak can get better. And some may call that hope. I call that just, like, keep spinning and see where you end up. And maybe you'll puke and maybe you won't. But, like, there's always something new and different to try. And, like, if you haven't thought about it yet, then maybe go to a soapbox event and someone will give you an idea or. You just saw me cry about needle exchange, an organization I haven't worked for in, like, 15 years. But it was so impactful to me as a teen who knew shit about shit, that I gained so much knowledge and so many ideas for future things that I still pull from today 15 years later. So it's like, just know that you don't know, and because you don't know that, that's freeing. And instead of paralyzing and maybe you can figure out a new solution with other people. It doesn't have to be a team building exercise. It can just be like, oh, I didn't have the tool and you do, so let's go.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

And all the founding father, like, some, like, 40 dudes were like, we're gonna make this, and we're just living in their dream and we can make a new one. There's all of us. Us in this room can be like, okay. New signatures.

[C]

Like, it's all very recent.

[B]

Guy with wooden teeth who relied on slave labor. Like, we're all better than that guy.

[D]

Yes. So we can do.

[C]

If they.

[D]

If those guys can do it. And their life expectancy was like, what? Like 40?

[C]

I don't know anything about.

[A]

They probably didn't even know about the expert. Okay.

[D]

Yeah, their life expectancy was 40, so we can do three times as well.

[A]

For sure. For sure. Sure. What about you, Janelle?

[C]

Oh, yeah. I feel very in line with what's been said. And I think for me, the recontextualization is that I am personally in an era of post traumatic growth, because I feel like I was willing to as long as I could commit to diving into the depths of the worst of it. And if you're right in the U diagram, you've got to go to the bottom to get to the top. And I'm mo moving up to the other side of the chasm. And I'm grateful that I was willing to go through the worst of it so I could experience the best of it. And that's like, on a personal level and in a business regard as well. Like, I am willing to continue to make sacrifices because I know they will accumulate only for the positive. And I get to define what that is because success is. Is defined by me and no one else in regards to my life.

[A]

I love that. Yeah. I mean, I guess what I would say, what keeps me optimistic right now interests me. Like, I thought about canceling the show about a thousand times after I sprained my ankle. And then Monday, Hutch got out of the house the first time. The cat sitter came over and then he bit her. She had to go to the er. He spent the night outside. He's back in the house. And they spelled my name wrong on the sign outside. And it was. It was just like, I was like, what the fuck am I doing? Why am I so full of shit? I should go home. And, like, I don't know, give up. But then I remembered, which, like, I'm having this feeling so massively right now, how incredible it is to be out here with all these awesome people having these conversations when in the past we would not have had that opportunity. People would prefer if we would shut up and stay home. Right? And here we are doing what we're doing every day. And I don't know, this may be copium. I don't think it is. I feel that the tide is turning. I really. I really do in all regards right now. And people who were never activated before are. And yeah, it sucks that things have to get bad to get people to take action and be a part of it and get rid of their smart refrigerator, which, like, we don't even need those. They're already smart enough. But that's the thing is, like, stuff is happening. And if you're feeling right now, like, giving up that you're doomed, that you are cooked, I want to remind you just again, we are not doomed unless we choose to be. And we're not choosing that. That's why we're all here right now. Right? All right, well, thank you so much for listening. To another episode of Clothes Horse. Here in person, I would like to thank my guests, Nibby, Kim, Janelle, thank you so much for spending with us.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

And of course, course, lastly, but never leastly, let's give a round of applause for Mr. Dustin Travis White. He's been doing sound back there the whole time. And thank you. Have a good night.

[B]

Sam.