Clotheshorse Episode 248: ATTN: Confidential with Maggie Greene

Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Amanda Lee McCarty (she/they)
Guest: Maggie Greene

Episode Overview

This episode of Clotheshorse departs from the usual formula as host Amanda Lee McCarty welcomes friend and fellow slow fashion advocate Maggie Greene for an honest, meandering, and heartfelt conversation. The theme centers around digital relationships, the power of online community, the transformative effects of human connection—both in-person and virtual—and the importance of joy and trust as acts of resistance and sustenance in difficult times. Amanda interviews Maggie about her recent "Tragic Optimist Tour"—a massive cross-country odyssey connecting with friends, collaborators, and community members, many of whom she had only met online prior. Their discussion also explores the realities and emotionality of mutual aid, boundary-setting, and finding solace in simple pleasures, from cats to true crime podcasts.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Tragic Optimist Tour: Scale, Purpose, and Impact

[00:17–13:28]

• Maggie describes her tour as a "personal odyssey," consisting of 30 days, more than 32 states, and 2 Canadian provinces—focused on maximizing face-to-face human connection after several isolating years.
  • "It was inspired by April 2025—my five year business anniversary—[and] I want human connection. I'm craving it. I finally realized that that was... missing profoundly from my life." (Maggie, 04:19)
• The trip was not a leisurely vacation but a form of "hard ass work," confronting personal fears, anxiety, and the challenges of nonstop social engagement.
  • "I have chronic anxiety. I had been travel averse my entire adult life. So all of this was like doing the things that scared me the most." (Maggie, 04:19)
• Maggie met 53 people intentionally (plus many more incidentally), much more "peopling" in a month than she does in a typical year.
  • "Literally, over 30 days...I saw 53 people. That's just the people that I intentionally saw." (Maggie, 08:31)

Virtual Friendships & Meeting IRL: Myth-Busting and Emotional Realities

[13:28–23:29]

• Both Amanda and Maggie reflect on the old stigma that “internet friends aren’t real friends,” noting how this has changed with generational shifts and pandemic-accelerated normalization.
  • "Relationships that up to that point had only existed in two dimensions, right—online—were so rich and real that...hugging someone, hugging a person for the first time, it was just really natural. It felt...familiar." (Maggie, 11:05)
  • "Our relationship up to this point is as real now as it ever was. And it wasn't not real before we met." (Maggie, 12:25)
  • "For a long time there has been this...misconception that relationships that exist solely, virtually are not real, or that things that happen online don’t have real emotional impact on our lives, which you and I know is also untrue." (Amanda, 13:28)
• The two agree that strong online relationships enable special forms of intimacy and community, especially for people who might experience barriers to traditional socializing.

The Power—and Necessity—of Online Community

[24:53–31:29]

• Amanda discusses how the concept of community is now multifaceted, including digital communities organized around brands, shared interests, or values.
  • "In a time where we feel quite lonely, capitalism is like, hey, how about here's something for you to gather around." (Amanda, 26:07)
  • Maggie: "Any shared interests...can be really powerful... we’re whole people beyond those individual interests."
• Importance of acknowledging that real emotional labor, social support, and identity-building happen online—and these spaces often provide accessibility for people with mobility or geographic limitations.
  • "If you don’t have a car, if you’re immobile in some way...maybe you can’t access these things in other ways...[but] online interactions...make accessible relationships, information sharing, resource sharing." (Maggie, 29:12)

Boundaries, Social Media, and Mental Health

[33:07–44:53]

• Both speakers candidly share experiences setting boundaries in online spaces, including the cathartic and empowering realization that blocking trolls can be a lesson applied to real life.
  • "Social media taught me how to protect myself and why I should." (Amanda, 34:07)
  • "The empowerment and the validation that came from walking away...my mental health is a bigger priority than trying to make this work around it." (Maggie, 35:11)
• Maggie describes stepping back from social media:
  • "I don’t feel like I’m missing anything...There’s more about it that I don’t miss." (Maggie, 39:13)
  • Real-time connection often replaced screen-based engagement, improving her own well-being.
• Both agree breaks from social media are restorative—even essential for mental health—and that the pressure to always be “on” is manufactured, not natural.

Joy as Resistance: Defiance Against Scarcity, Guilt, and Burnout

[44:53–56:33]

• The importance of actively seeking joy, rest, and pleasure is asserted, especially when the world seems bleak.
  • "Making the choice to [take the trip]...when there were so many reasons not to...tells me it’s also the best time to." (Maggie, 47:07)
  • "We can never really...make change via resistance if we are not also taking time for joy." (Amanda, 47:57)
  • Halloween and other small rituals are discussed as anchors of hope and continuity—"Halloween last year was the only thing that got me by, like, knowing that October would come..." (Maggie, 49:14)
  • Amanda: "It is important to make the concerted effort to have joy, connection, rest, do silly things that in no way make the world a better place sometimes, because if you don't, you're going to get burned out so fast."
• They encourage listeners to embrace so-called guilty pleasures as necessary and transformative, not shameful or frivolous.

On Cats and Companionship: Everyday Joys and Lessons in Boundaries

[51:17–58:58]

• An extended and effusive love letter to cats, and how their presence provides comfort, boundaries, and emotional support.
  • "[My cat] Brenda...has honestly gotten me through so many difficult times...Her love and just always being there helped me get up every day.” (Amanda, 56:32)
  • "They’re also different than other animals...they tell you how they want to be treated or not. Boundary setting—we were just talking about boundaries." (Maggie, 51:47)
  • Both recount deeply personal experiences of grief and the role of animal companionship in healing.

Comforts in Unlikely Places: True Crime & Keith Morrison

[59:17–70:23]

• Both share their mutual soft spot for Dateline’s Keith Morrison; his soothing delivery provides a peculiar form of comfort and grounding, especially during travel or anxiety.
  • "My self-soothing activity is...Keith Morrison...I have a curated list of only the episodes where Keith is the reporter." (Maggie, 62:59)
  • Amanda recounts listening to the Dateline podcast during a harrowing solo drive in a tornado, which helped her manage panic. (68:16)
  • Amanda: "There is just something so soothing and hypnotic about listening to the Dateline podcast...when I am stressed out, you know, out of my element, maybe traveling or something, putting that on, I’m like, ah, okay, everything’s gonna be fine." (Amanda, 61:21 from transcript; refers to earlier story)

Mutual Aid, Trust, and the Challenges of Direct Advocacy

[70:51–99:00]

• Maggie describes her unexpected entry into mutual aid: a young Palestinian artist, Jenna, reaches out via DM to ask for help raising funds for her displaced family.
  • She navigates the mechanics and risks of setting up GoFundMe and international wire transfers, emphasizing the practical and emotional complexities.
  • "She needed help...This is a now 15-year-old child in Gaza...they’d been displaced 11 times over a year." (Maggie, 72:28)
  • The necessity (and difficulty) of compartmentalizing emotion to remain effective and of setting boundaries to protect one’s capacity for sustained action.
  • "You have to meet your own needs, you have to set boundaries, so that you can show up and be effective and take effective action." (Maggie, 79:40)
• Amanda introduces the concept of “thought-terminating cliches”—phrases used to deflect real engagement with complex issues—applied here to online aid skepticism ("it’s probably a scam").
• They discuss the role of trust in both mutual aid and online connection:
  • "My personal policy is to trust first...unless/until I’m given an explicit reason not to. If you break my trust, it’s over." (Maggie, 94:58)
  • Maggie relates how her experience led her to help even more families via networks of trust—offering direct, visible relief.
• Both point out that mainstream systems of aid are unreliable and slow, and that direct action—even if small or local—has immediate and meaningful impact.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On digital friendship:
  "Our relationship up to this point is as real now as it ever was. And it wasn't not real before we met." – Maggie ([12:25])
• On boundaries:
  "Social media taught me how to protect myself and why I should." – Amanda ([34:07])
• On joy as resistance:
  "Choosing joy felt like the most intense act of resistance that you could take." – Amanda ([44:53])
• On mutual aid skepticism:
  "A thought terminating cliche is often a phrase...people will throw up in complex situations to discourage deeper exploration..." – Amanda ([83:28])
• On trust and community:
  "If you operate on, like, mistrust first, you also lose opportunities to connect with people. You're casting away people that...might could be, you know, one of the most meaningful relationships in your life." – Maggie ([99:55])
• On lived experience:
  "If there's any time in your life that leaning into pleasure, joy as an act of resistance, like it's now." – Maggie ([104:47])
• On resisting perfectionism:
  "We can't let perfection be the enemy of good. And that's what happens when we say...I can't eat packaged food for dinner even though I'm so hungry. And it's also what we're doing if we say, like, oh, we can't make friends in other parts of the world." – Amanda ([105:21])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:17 – Introduction and setup of the conversation format
• 04:05 – Maggie explains the "Tragic Optimist Tour"
• 09:25 – First-time IRL meetings: expectations vs. reality
• 19:04 – The importance of trust in internet relationships
• 26:07 – Community and modern brand-based affinity groups
• 34:07 – Learning boundary-setting from social media
• 44:53 – Joy as resistance; navigating guilt and burnout
• 51:17 – Cats as sources of comfort and emotional regulation
• 62:59 – Keith Morrison/true crime as unique self-soothing strategies
• 70:51 – The mechanics and ethics of mutual aid in crisis zones
• 83:28 – Thought-terminating cliches and trust as community foundation
• 94:58 – Trust-first approach for activism and aid
• 104:47 – Closing reflections on joy, authenticity, and community

Conclusion & Final Thoughts

Maggie invites listeners to check out her new podcast Attention Confidential, which focuses on trust, self-awareness, curiosity, and advocacy in a safe and often anonymous container for deep conversations. Both Amanda and Maggie remind listeners of the value in broadening our understanding of what constitutes “real” relationships and community, especially in a world that seems bent on hardening mistrust. The episode ends with encouragement to embrace joy, practice trust, de-stigmatize “guilty” pleasure, and recognize the tangible power of virtual community.

"Your story matters, your voice matters, and I want to help support that and amplify that as much as I can." – Maggie ([103:46])

Resources and Actions

• [Listen to Part 1 of Amanda & Maggie’s Conversation on Attention Confidential (link in show notes)]
• Find and support ongoing mutual aid work in Palestine (links in show notes)
• Take moments for joy, set boundaries where needed, and trust yourself and your chosen communities

For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In Yet

This episode is a warm, humorous, and deeply candid meditation on finding hope, connection, and meaning in uncertain times; the friendship and fulfillment found in online community; how to set boundaries for self-preservation; and the importance of choosing joy—even (or especially) when it feels like an act of defiance. Filled with relatable anecdotes, thoughtful insights, and genuine affection, it's perfect for anyone thinking critically about the intersection of fashion, activism, friendship, or simply being human in 2025.

“If you wear clothes, you need to listen to Clotheshorse.” —Elise
“If you are human and live in the world, you need to listen to Clotheshorse.” —Individually Wrapped