B (4:05)

Yeah, I'm with you. Like road trip seems reductive, a little bit cutesy.

A (4:09)

You know.

B (4:13)

I've referred to it as a personal odyssey.

A (4:17)

Okay, I like that.

B (4:19)

Certainly was a transformative adventure and like from the professional side of things, I'll tell you the inspiration for the whole thing. Like it was also a project with a capital P. Lot of multiple work streams, right? From logistics to strategic planning to emotional management, personality management, like community, all those things. It was inspired by in April. So April is when it took place. April 2025 was my five year business anniversary. And we all know where we are in 2025 in April. That was very clear. So February of 2024. Ish. I started thinking about, well, my original plans for this milestone aren't really gonna work. Like what I want. Especially where we are in again, 2024, 25. I want human connection. I'm craving it. I finally realized that that was, you know, something that had been missing profoundly from my life. And so I, I embarked on this journey consisting of 30 days. So the entire month of April. Inside of that 30 days, I packed as much human connection in as possible, which found me traveling across more than 30 states. I think it was 32. So 32 states in 30 days plus two Canadian provinces. As far as the scale, right, that gives you kind of some quantitative insight on the qualitative side, the sheer emotional scale of this, as much as it was a project on adventure, it certainly wasn't a vacation. I hope that if you don't take away anything else, you know that this was not a vacation. I was actively engaged in hard ass work, including, you know, I have chronic anxiety. I had been travel averse my entire adult life. So all of this was like doing the things that scared me the most. Pursuit of this, this human connection piece. I got all of that and more. So your question was about scale? I'll leave it there. Much more to share, depending on what you want to know.

A (7:05)

I mean, I will say as a person who also has chronic anxiety, someone tells me about a 30 day road trip where you're packing in as much social interaction as possible. And I am immediately spiraling. And I am assuming that a lot of people who are listening to this would feel similarly like that is a, that is a lot. A road trip is a lot. A 30 day road trip is even more. And then so many social interactions. I mean, I don't know about you, but I, I am, I don't. Maybe the pandemic has made me this way. I'm not really sure. But I have gotten very comfortable being alone a lot of the time and a lot of interaction can kind of exhaust me in a way that I am unaccustomed to now.

B (7:55)

Absolutely. The, the social battery, right? Like, yeah, we were talking about scale and kind of quantitative insights. Like, I did some math, which is not my strong suit nor my special interest by any means, but I'm like, what does this look like? How, how can I even describe. I did the math. And so the word peopling comes to mind. You know, this, the concept of the social battery, for me, you know, to be at my best, it is. I can take a little bit of peopling and then I need some time to recover. Right. To recharge.

A (8:31)

Yeah.

B (8:31)

Literally over 30 days, we're talking one month. If I met someone for coffee, right, once a week, I will have done more peopling in this 30 day period than over the course of an entire year. So I did the math. 53 adults that are full of minors, some youngsters as well, that I got to hang out with, but I saw 53 people. That's just the people that I intentionally saw. That's not even strangers at gas stations and people in traffic and, you know, customer service people that I had to interact with, you know, along the way. It was a lot of people and zero downtime. Like no real time to recharge. I mean, it was like pedal to the metal, go, go, go. All 30 days.

A (9:25)

Yeah. So you said wait, 53 people, right. How many of those 53 people had you ever met in real life before? And I mean, in real life, I think the Internet is real life. We're going to talk about that too. But like you had had person to person, you're both in the same physical space at the same time. Contact.

B (9:47)

Definitely the majority I had had, okay, some interaction with in person before. So, you know, the, the mission of the trip again was to. To connect with as many people as I could in the spirit of my, in support of my business. It was, you know, connecting with Clients with collaborators, community members. And because of the sheer scale and distance and geographical kind of footprint, I had the chance to connect with old friends from. With family members. So, you know, 75%, a good 75% I had met before, but it was that 25% remaining that I'd only interacted with online, like on zoom and virtual spaces, that I was especially interested in connecting with. And in three dimensions, we'll say, yeah.

A (10:34)

That'S a great way. In three dimensions. I like that. So tell me. I mean, a spoiler for anybody listening to this. Maggie did spend a night at my house, and this was our first time meeting in three dimensions. Right. What was it like to interact with people for the first time ever in person like that? Did you have anxiety about it? Were you surprised? Disappointed? Was it weird?

B (11:05)

Definitely not disappointed. Let me just, like, for the record, everyone that I met for the first time in person in three dimensions, it was an absolute. Just, you know, I've talked about radical joy, electric joy, as, like, a visceral sensation, an emotional experience. It was amazing. I was definitely anxious about it. You know, it's. It wasn't meeting someone for the first time, but it kind of was. It was like, similar. Similar jitters. In particular, you know, there. There are things about me that don't come across the screen. Right. You. There are people who have only ever seen me from, like, the chest up, kind of. Yeah. Like, I wasn't anxious about revealing my appearance in full, but there's, like, sensory things, too, like, yeah, I think I smell weird, or, like. So, like, in a lot of ways, it was a really, really big deal. But what surprised me the most was how kind of not a big deal it was. And I mean that in a positive way. It was like these relationships that up to that point had only existed in. In two dimensions. Right. Online were so rich and real that, like, hugging someone, hugging a person for the first time, it was, like, just really natural. It felt, like, familiar. Even though I might have expected it to be a little bit weird, like, in the moment, like, I wasn't thinking about how I smelled or how they smelled. It was like this really special, physical, shared space that, you know, we had together. So in a lot of ways, it was a big deal. And the surprise was that it wasn't really that big of a deal. I had this idea of, like, the fourth wall, which you'll hear me talk more about in other spaces, other conversations. There is no fourth wall. It's like, this is all real, you know, our relationship up to this point. Is as real now as it ever was. And it wasn't not real before we met.

A (13:28)

Maggie, I feel absolutely the same way. But, I mean, you and I both know that there has for a long time been this, I don't know, misconception that, like, relationships that exist solely, virtually are not real, or that things that happen online are not real and don't have real emotional impact on our lives, which you and I know is also untrue. I, in my adult life, have met so many friends over the years who I consider to be good friends that I maybe have never met, like, in the same physical space or who I didn't actually hang out with in person for, like, years into our relationship, like. Like you, Maggie. But I do remember as a teenager, as the Internet was coming up and starting to exist, the very idea that you would go meet someone in real life that you had met on the Internet made everybody assume that you were about to be murdered, right? And there was, like, a great stigma against online dating. And just. I remember the first time I went to meet a friend who I had been chatting with on, like, instant Messenger. My mom was, like, so adamantly against it that, like, I needed to call her immediately after I got there. I made sure that it wasn't a trap to abduct me or something. And I. I remember thinking, like, you're so. Like, you're so out of touch. Like, this is. I have all these great Internet friends, you know? But I also do remember around the same time in college, I was very deeply, emotionally entangled with this woman. We were going to get an apartment together. It was like. It was moving kind of fast, to be fair, but it took a whole school year. And abruptly she was like, actually, I'm dropping out of school and I'm moving to Portland, Oregon, to be with this guy who I met on Instant Messenger. I was like, what?

B (15:33)

What?

A (15:33)

That's insane. How could you do that? You don't even know him. These feelings are real. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Of course, many years into the century now, I'm like, hey, I get it. These feelings and relationships are real. You know, but back then, it was. I was like, this is going too far.

B (15:48)

You know, certainly, you know, like, not in this particular context, in my experience. Because, you know, these are. They're protected relationships, right? They're not just, like, long and deep and that kind of thing. Like, you know, with respect to clients, obviously there was, like, a contract in place. Like, we're. We have commitments to one another. One another. There's levels of transparency Like, I definitely don't want to suggest. I don't know, it's a. It's a new time. But safety, it's definitely a consideration. Of course, you know, I. I did. I did my research, right. I did a lot of vetting as you can do over the Internet. But, you know, this. This idea of in real life definitely played out. In fact, before I left, some of the language that I used to describe, like, my vision for the thing, I was like, I want to connect with as many people irl. Right. In real life as I can. I don't know it. I. It. It's changed my mind, definitely changed my perspective. I feel like the relationships, whether or not they involve in person, physical interaction, are still as relevant and profound and important. You know, these are people that we've mutually invested hours and, you know, we've seen each other, you know, video chat, I guess.

A (17:24)

Yes.

B (17:25)

Thing back in the day, right. When. When AIM was still around and things like that. But, you know, they're not faceless, nameless Catfish. Definitely a different experience, but totally.

A (17:40)

Although I will say that I do profoundly enjoy that television program Catfish, even though it's become very formulaic at this point. The. One of the tells is that the person never will video chat.

B (17:55)

Right, Right. Photos. And, you know, obviously with certain software out there, you know, like, you can manufacture images. But yeah, video chat is pretty hard to. I don't know, maybe I don't want to scare anyone, but that's.

A (18:16)

Yeah, it's a red flag. I.

B (18:18)

What.

A (18:19)

Basically what Maggie and I are saying is, like, we're not telling you that you should go out and just randomly go hang out with strangers from the Internet. Okay. Like, there is a process to building that relationship to get to a point where you would meet them in person, and that involves trust. Right. And like real relationship building, which isn't going to happen overnight and most likely is not going to happen if you've never, at this point in 2025, actually like, zoomed or FaceTimed or something with them, because that's part of building that relationship. Like, think about how many hours you and I have spent talking via zoom over the past few years, Maggie.

B (19:04)

Right. How many conversations. And, you know, even outside of clothes. Horse, obviously. Right. Like, yeah. Off the record sharing personal experiences and, you know, details that, I don't know, you just can't fake them. I don't know, maybe some people can, but trust. I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, that. That was huge. It felt like a big exercise in trust to you know, trust in myself that I can even do this, can I even do something like this, but also trust in the people, you know, with. With whom I'm staying to, like, you know, be safe. Safe people, safe environments.

A (19:48)

Yes.

B (19:49)

Um, yeah. Yeah.

A (19:51)

And. And the same thing goes on my end for being like, yes, you may come and stay at my home. Person from the Internet, you know, I.

B (19:59)

Told you it was. It was not a big deal. Like, it was a big deal, but not a big deal. It was a really big deal to be able to see you. And I. I say this, you know, it was true of all of these experiences with people that, you know, I was so excited to meet. But, like, witnessing you in your element, you know, even though I've never seen your house, like, never, you know, never met your cats except in photos. Like, it was surprising to me how little I was surprised by anything. I was like, this is so. You. Like, this is just. This is absolutely. You. Like, of course you'd have, like, a velvet painting of a cat. You know, like all these. But, like, I feel like it grew our relationship.

A (20:47)

It.

B (20:48)

It helped me know you on a level that again, you know, when you're. When you're on a screen, on the phone, there are those elements that you just don't get to experience. And so that was a big deal. And, you know, you're. You're making meals for me, which is like, that's a big deal too. You know, I'm the one at home. I'm the one responsible for doing a lot of the cooking. I'm like, wow. To be fed is like, that's a big deal.

A (21:19)

It's a big deal to me. I feel. I love feeding people because when you are the person who does all the feeding, when someone does that for you, it is. You feel so cared for. It is such a. A gift and such a treat. And so I am very into cooking. Dinner, breakfast, lunch, all the meals, snacks, whatever you need. When you're at my house.

B (21:46)

It was. It was amazing. You were an unforgettable host for sure. Still treasuring those memories.

A (21:54)

And what Maggie is not telling you all is that if you are a minimalist, my house is a nightmare because it is extremely maximal in terms of, like, every treasure I've ever thrifted in my lifetime. But very artfully merchandised, as Ruby pointed out once.

B (22:13)

Absolutely. Like, definitely curated. An absolute reflection of your personality. Like, you know, the clothes horse energy. Clothes horse is you, right?

A (22:26)

Yeah. Yeah, it is, it is. And my house is a reflection of that too. And yeah, I'm glad you got to come and we got to have that time together because, yeah, you know, it didn't. It felt. And we talked about this, I think before you left even just like, it was like, I feel like at this point we are family and it was just like having a family member come to visit. It feels as if you and I have known each other our whole lives.

B (22:55)

Yes.

A (22:55)

And for you to be in my house, hanging out, sharing a meal, telling stories, just felt like the most natural thing to happen. And it was such a source of joy. And you know, to be honest, Maggie, like, in a year that I will tell you, my mental health has been really, really bad. I've been like hanging on basically barely. That was so, like, emotionally sort of rejuvenating in a way that I didn't even know I needed.

B (23:29)

I. I feel the same way and you know, kind of back to scale of this experience, like, that is what is still impacting me and what I know will continue to have an impact years down the line is that that feeling of nourishment, you know, are literal, but like emotional nourishment literal too. Damn. Damn nutritious and nourishing food. But the. The emotional connection, like same on the mental health side. Like, that's part of the reason why I did this, when I did this. It's kind of a. An investment in the dark days that will come up later and have come up. You know, I experience some depression coming back just because it's. It's over. Like, but it's not some ways too. Like, I want that same feeling all the time. And there is something really special about three dimensions that you. You can't get in two dimensions. And I, I think part that is part of it. You know, hearing you describe it like a family member coming over, like, that's how it felt to visit with these people, to visit with you. Like, you know, it's just. It's something kind of hard to describe.

A (24:53)

Yeah, it really, it really is. But you know, like, I specifically, I would say since 2020, and you can speak if your experience has been different. I specifically feel as though I have gained all of these people in my life who our relationship, at least initially, if not still has been solely virtual. And yet the feelings and the connection and the intimacy of it all are so real and bring so much value to both parties. The way I have viewed connection has changed a lot over the last five years.

B (25:37)

Yeah, maybe the word is community. Like when people idea of community, it's that emotional experience that being in the presence of one another. And that concept absolutely happens, you know, organically in a virtual environment, you know, might look a little bit different than in a physical environment, but it really is the same at the core. Yeah. Yeah.

A (26:07)

I'll tell you, by the time this episode comes out, the series that I'm currently working on right now will be long, long released long ago. But I'm basically doing a ton of research and writing about people and their relationship with brands and their personal identity and sort of the illusion of brand as like, a. An entity. Right. You know, people who are like, I'm an anthropology gal, or, you know, whatever. Right. And the thing that has been coming up a lot in my research that I have been ruminating on quite a bit is how for many people, one of the communities they belong to, where they find connection, and I'm not saying this is bad or good, is via the brands they most admire. And that sounds wild when you say it out loud, but there are all these Facebook groups and subreddits for people who are just like, I'm a huge fan of Big Bud Press, or, I love new works or glossier, or you name it. And yes, people are talking about things that those companies are selling and things they want to buy, and they're reselling things, but they're also becoming friends and sharing their personal stories and getting to know one another. And I think in a time where we feel quite lonely, capitalism is like, hey, how about. Here's something for you to gather around.

B (27:36)

Yeah, affinity groups, Right? But, yeah, generally speaking, though, like, any shared interests, any mutual interests, it can be. It can be anything, right? Starting at that point, starting with. That can be really powerful. Like, you know, you. Well, let's say how we met, right, in 2020, there's, like this convergence of, you know, we're. We're meeting around some of these core values that we share, but also this, you know, this love of clothing and shoes and accessories. Like, and also, we're whole people beyond those individual interests. So I can see that, you know, as you're sharing in those groups online, like, yeah, it starts with Big Bud Press. But also you're. You're human and you have cool thoughts and stories and, you know, experiences, and you show up with empathy and, like, hey, you know, we. We get along really well. Like, maybe. Maybe there's more to it than just the brand or just this thing, obsession with clothes, whatever it might be.

A (28:46)

I mean, what do you think people who do minimize sort of like, what happens online and online relationships as Less valuable or you know, quote, not real life. Do you think that that view maybe could make you miss out on something or is it maybe a safer way to view it all?

B (29:12)

Yeah, I don't. I think people are really quick to criticize if they don't understand something or if they have a fear of something. And your question actually reminded me of a story, like a personal example. I won't share who the person was, but someone very, very close to me, you know, is making an observation. I'm on my computer a lot. Right. Or I'm on the phone. And that, that turned into like just quote unquote, playing online or playing dress up with dislike. Yeah, you know, playing dress up with your Internet friends. Like the mutual interest obviously is the, the style piece and the fashion piece. But also. Yeah, it just felt extremely minimizing and reductive. Like you don't, you don't know what we're talking about. We're talking about capitalism, we're talking about politics, we are talking about trauma, like all of these deep em. Emotional experiences. I think, you know, like, don't knock it till you try it. But also maybe it's not for everyone. And I think the other piece of that too, like online interactions, people might not even consider have considered this. Hopefully they have, but they make accessible relationships, conversations, information sharing, resource sharing. It makes all of those things possible for people who have other barriers that might prevent physical experiences from happening. You know, the obvious is like if you, if you don't have a car, you don't, if you're immobile in some way, like maybe you can't access these other things in other ways. And for someone to, yeah again like criticize or minimize. I think if anybody's out there kind of thinking along those lines, like re. Reconsider, think more broadly beyond just your own experience and acknowledge that you know, it, maybe it isn't your thing and that's totally cool, but it does provide a lot of value for other people. Certainly it has for me.

A (31:29)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you really do bring up a good point there that for some people or many people, there are various barriers to getting out there and seeing people three dimensionally. Like for me for example, right now it's that I live in a rural area, right. And I also work a lot. So I have. My socialization windows are pretty limited. But other times in my life, I can specifically remember being in my 20s, the mother of a small child, you know, a single parent and not having the ability to go anywhere. But one thing, my one Luxury was Internet access. And I would instant message with my friends, you know, and send epic emails and all of those things. Right. Like, because that was, that was where I could have that like, socialization and build those relationships. And I think that, I don't know, I also just want to say that things that happen online have a real emotional impact on us. We cannot compartmentalize that. And so, you know, in the era of like, it seems like there's a troll around every virtual corner, it's important to remember that it's okay to say people on the Internet are hurting me, frightening me, unsettling me. It's okay to block people, it's okay to leave a platform. It doesn't make you a weak person or, I don't know, a person who's too wrapped up in the Internet. If these things cause you emotional harm.

B (33:07)

Yeah, it's absolutely valid. And I love that you meant like reminding people that it's okay, giving them permission. Like if you need permission to set boundaries, this, you know, take that away from this conversation. Like it's absolutely, you don't owe the public anything. You don't owe strangers anything. I know sometimes it can feel that way, especially if you're entrenched in, you know, spaces like social media, whatever the platform might be. Yeah, you're, you are human. You're not a two dimensional machine or, you know, facsimile of a human. You, you have the whole, the whole human experience, including emotional. And yeah, I think it makes you stronger actually to set those boundaries, to share about it if you feel comfortable and safe doing so. But yeah, you know what?

A (34:07)

I will say one of the things I've learned from social media slash the Internet over the years of many things I've learned is I actually think this might, you might think this is pretty wild. You tell me what you think. I think I have learned a lot about the sort of net benefit of setting boundaries via social media where someone was saying something horrible to me, hurting me online and I just blocked them and I felt so much better. And it made me realize that I can keep the real life trolls out of my life too and that there is a win in doing that for me. Right. That that actually benefits my mental health and my general health because it's, you know, it's so entangled in a weird way this social media taught me how to protect myself and why I should.

B (35:11)

One might still be like learning that because I, I mean at this point, so if, if engagement or investment in, you know, whatever time, energy, all those things into social media as a spectrum. I was like all in, all in deep, like every single day, multiple times a day. It was an active thing in my life. Even when I wasn't directly engaged. I was thinking about it or planning for it. All that mostly right in support of my business. And then as of like a year ago, I been out, like gone, sort of dropped off. And I. In between, you know, I'm. I'm always in between making those decisions or that level of involvement. I'm thinking about the impact, I'm thinking about attachment, my relationship to this thing. Where does it all fit? What am I learning? Is this growing me in any way? Still trying to. To figure those things out, but the boundary itself, like the, the empowerment, I guess, and the validation that came from walking away without expl. Feeling like I had. I mean, I might have felt like I had to explain myself, but I didn't. You know, I was just out. Like this is not where I want to be right now. I'm not handling it well. My mental health is a bigger priority than like trying to make this work around it. But yeah, I think it's amazing to hear from you again, like someone who is actively involved. Right. Regularly to have come away with the insights of like the Internet. That's awesome. Like social media, media teaching you more about boundaries and meeting your own needs is freaking awesome. I think that definitely speaks to the value we were talking about, about the virtual. Virtual space, you know?

A (37:12)

Yeah, yeah. Because it is real life and it really does exist in our brains and in our emotional sort of landscape. It is part of our memories. It is part of how we learn things. We learn things from the Internet, like about ourselves and how to protect ourselves. And you know, I have definitely, over the last five years of Clothors Clothes Horse experienced some people being incredibly horrible to me on the Internet. Seeing some of the meanest stuff, saying via typing, obviously the meanest stuff that anyone has said to me in my whole life, which is. That's a lot. And you know, I wish that I could delete those words. You know, you and I are both people who find words to be very powerful. So that kind of stuff is very, very impactful on me. But knowing that, like I didn't have to put up with that, that I didn't have to be a people pleaser and let that person hang around or ch. Try to make them like me or want to not say mean things to me. I mean, I'm a people pleaser. So generally if someone is bad to me, I. In the past would be like, how do I earn, earn their affection? You know, very standard child abuse survivor kind of behavior. And somehow the Internet has helped me be like, you know, fuck off. Which I needed. I needed that.

B (38:44)

Yeah. If, if only we had been able to say that, you know, while enduring abuse as children. Like, what I wouldn't give to say off. Right? Yeah.

A (38:56)

Yeah. Seriously. Seriously. So, okay. You have definitely pulled back a lot in your social media presence in the past year. Like, do you feel like you're missing anything? Was it hard to do that?

B (39:13)

I don't feel like I'm missing anything. So what others might perceive as total absence, it's, it's a lack of engagement on my part, lack of visible engagement. I absolutely still check in with people. I certainly follow news updates and also I've diversified my sources for information and also connection. I, there's more about it that I don't miss. I, I do miss seeing my friends and people that I care about, businesses that I'm passionate about, want to support. I miss seeing, you know, real time updates about the cool that they're doing. And I'm, I'm still able to get it in sort of digest form. Right. I see it happening. I can reach out to them one on one, which is really powerful versus, you know, doing that in like a public forum with an audience. I don't, I don't know. It was hard for me and I wasn't even sure as it was happening that I was making a decision to like walk away, like draw a really stark line. But there, there was that, you know, similar emotional impact as we talked about before. Like, I felt like, I can tell you today, you don't owe anything to the public because I felt like at one time I did. Right. As a business owner, I have to be here. I should be doing X, Y, Z. I'm definitely in a. I don't know if it's like existential space or if it's oppositional defiance or whatever. Like, I just really am not interested in conventions or standards or expectations. Like, who made these rules? I don't know. And you're saying I have to be on social media? Like, I'll, I'll do it if I want to do it. I don't know. And I don't want to take away from anyone whose business or livelihood or even social interaction, like, is fully reliant on these platforms. It just, for me, it was really hard and like I said, I'm still figuring it out. Maybe there is some future point where I can engage with it. In a healthy way and not feel like it takes up so much of my time, even beyond the direct engagement, like, like you were talking about. Those words hurt. And yeah, they hurt in the immediate aftermath. And they also can haunt you for weeks at a time. Yeah, maybe that's on. On me, right? To, to navigate that, to figure that out, coping strategies, all of that boundary setting. I just, I feel like my time and skills and energy, emotional energy, is better spent elsewhere. Like I just, you know, which. That's hard to say too. Like, you know, everyone I know, most of the people I know are actively engaged in it. I just, I needed a freaking break.

A (42:36)

Yes. I mean, and I think I have found in the past I felt that sort of obligation that I had to be there all the time, that I owed some. Something to some someone, whatever that means. And in the past, like year or so, sometimes I just reach this point where the negative feelings I have are so extreme. They're building and building with the pressures building inside me that I just take a break from social media. And I find it is incredibly restorative and almost sort of insisted, instantly restorative. And I use that time to do other things. I read a book, I go for a walk, I work in my garden, I play my Nintendo Switch. I'm really good at Tetris, not to brag. I do these things that just, I don't know, are solitary in a weird way that, like, help me get that break that I need. So I do think that the Internet would tell you otherwise. But it's okay to not be on social media all the time. Don't tell the Zuckerbergs and such that I said that. They'll totally push me down in the algorithm.

B (43:48)

On the other side of that, like, what, what might you be missing out on by not, you know, I don't know, like, what is it like now that it's out of my life, at least for the moment? Like, I've had more phone dates, I've had coffee dates, you know, like actually hanging out with people, socializing. Like this notion of social, what social media was perhaps intended to be community building. I have more time and bandwidth for that, which has really been transformative for me. Like mental health wise, definitely still struggle, you know, we all do at points. But I know that it was the right decision for where I'm at mental health wise right now. And I don't feel like I have any regrets. If that changes, I'll definitely report back and let you know.

A (44:53)

Speaking of just sort of like finding happiness. Peace Rest. Let's talk a little bit about joy as resistance and where you find joy. Can you tell us about a time when choosing joy felt like an act of defiance? Like really kind of one of the most intense acts of resistance that you could take. And what did you do?

B (45:21)

I mean, you know, I don't think this will be a surprise, but let's take the. The road trip. Quote, unquote. Road trip.

A (45:29)

I know, like, just underselling it with that name.

B (45:34)

Optimist Tour is what I called it. It was a. It was a hell of a journey making the choice to do that, even though I'd been planning it for a year and thinking about the idea actually doing the thing when there were so many reasons not to. Not the least of which is, right, the backdrop of this experience, which is what we're all sharing in, at least in America right now. Like, everything is saying, you know, go back to scarcity mentality, right? Like, stay home, stay safe. Also stay on top of the news headlines as much as you can. Like, yes, all of those things are important. And, you know, financial insecurity. I didn't have like a ton of cash stacked up to do this. Right. I have limited financial resources, limited economic power, but. And the depression too. Like, everything coming from every angle is like, you know, teasing me with apathy and depression and inaction and all of those things. Like, you should be. Yeah. Just feeling sorry for yourself. Whatever. Whatever that was. Or also you should be engaged in activism at all times. Like martyrdom.

A (47:01)

Yeah. Oh, martyrdom is such a good way to phrase it.

B (47:07)

And I was like, you know, in the planning of this, I'm talking with close friends and family. I'm like, it feels like the absolute worst possible time to do something like this. Which tells me it's also the best time to totally, again, all these reasons not to. And just for the joy of it. I didn't even know what joy I might experience. But for the possibility of experiencing joy when I had come off of months of dark, heavy days of like, there is no hope. What the hell is the point of everything? Is there even meaning behind any of this? Doing that? Just like I said on the. On the mere possibility of joy, mere promise of that possibility was worth. Was a big risk.

A (47:57)

The reality is that, like, we can never really, I don't know, like, make pick up momentum, make change via resistance if we are not also taking time for joy. And something that was just driving me to a fit of rage on social media last year was people being like, oh, how can you Celebrate Halloween when this is happening in the world, or anyone who's celebrating Christmas or their birthday or going to a wedding or having a baby shower, when all these bad things are happening in the world are bad people who are selfish and who don't care about anyone outside themselves. And I would say, actually, life is really short and it is full of hard times. And it is important to make the concerted effort to have joy, connection, rest, do silly things that in no way make the world a better place sometimes, because if you don't, you're going to get burned out so fast that it's hard to turn things around and actually be sort of like an effective member of your community or activist.

B (49:14)

Halloween last year was the only thing that got me by, like, knowing that October would come and Halloween was something to look forward to. It is sometimes the little. The smallest things, right? Yeah, we've got to have those. Whatever that is for you, especially right now, because this is a long, long game, right?

A (49:40)

It really is. Yes.

B (49:42)

Gotta get it where you can.

A (49:44)

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I was in Japan for a month last year over election day, and I remember specifically learning the results of the election, watching it unfold in real time where a lot of. After a lot of people were in bed here, back home. But it was, you know, at the morning, an early afternoon where I was and really having to come to terms with it at this incredible outdoor museum in the mountains. Just like, I don't know, this stunningly beautiful place. There was like a foot bath, like a hot springs foot bath to soak in there and all this incredible art and just the most beautiful, glorious November day in Japan. And being like, I can't enjoy this right now. I'm so devastated and I can't ever enjoy anything again until this is fixed. And having to have a really serious talk with myself, like, bad times are coming. Bad times never went away. We need to make space for both. And I swear that, honestly, I sometimes need to take that advice a little bit better myself. Okay, well, let's talk about some maybe like, smaller things literally, that bring us joy. Let's talk about cats, which we don't talk about enough here on Clothes Horse. For sure.

B (51:17)

I was just thinking about that. My. My little boy Cyrus is just within reach. He's always, never, never far away from me, you know, within. Within a couple feet at all times, if not directly attach. Um, yeah, let's talk about cats. I love cats. Same.

A (51:37)

And just gonna say this hot take here. Very skeptical of people who say they hate cats because cats Are great.

B (51:47)

I agree. And I, like, while I love all animals, certainly I. I have dogs, I have a cat. I feel like I am a cat person. I don't know, I might always. May or may not always have dogs, but I feel like cats have always been a significant part of my life and I can't imagine life without them. Yeah, they are. They are precious creatures. They're also. They're also different than other animals. Like, I feel like they. I don't know, they. They tell you how they want to be treated or not. Boundary setting. We were just talking about boundaries. You know, if I am in a. A shitty mental health space, like, there is nothing that will get me closer to getting out of that than like, burying my face in cat fur, you know, even though I'm technically allergic. I don't know if I've shared that publicly before. No, like, overexposure has helped me overcome that in some ways. I still get like, icky, swelling, infection stuff if I, like, get bitten or scratched. But, yeah, bury my face in for. And hearing a cat purr is like, you know, almost instant relief from panic or sadness, any of those things. It's just really important to me. I don't know. What about you?

A (53:23)

Oh, I mean, like, you know, I currently live with four cats. We did have five. One of them was Janet. Janet actually lives with Dylan now because Janet, I. First off, I don't know if Janet knows that she is a cat. And I say that because she really hates cats. And so she was really struggling to live with other cats. Janet now is an only cat, lives with Dylan, is spoiled rotten, is having the time of her life, still probably unaware that she's a cat. So we have four cats. And obviously I love them all and I have quality time with them all in different places at different times. But, I mean, I think that the cat that people know most as the cat of clothes horse is Brenda. And Brenda came into my life in 2019 when I trapped her and her siblings, who were all kittens, in the alley behind my house, my Renton home in Philadelphia. And we fostered them through the summer. And I'm really glad that it was the summer. So Dylan didn't have school because fostering kittens is hard work. And we adopted them all out except for Brenda. And we actually kept Brenda because Brenda was the least social, the least interested in humans. And we felt that she would be the most difficult to adopt out. So we were just like, we'll just keep her. And I don't know what changed in Brenda's mind. But after her siblings were gone and she was just more of a like tween Brenda, like a 12 year old kind of Brenda in human years, she sat down, I was sitting on the couch on my laptop. She just came in, got on the couch and slid under my arm. So she was half in my lap and I was sort of embracing her while I worked. And that was the beginning of this, like, really intense relationship that has honestly gotten me through so many, so many difficult times. And one thing that happened in 2020, in addition to many other bad things that happened in 2020, is my cat Mo died. And he had been with me, I mean, most of my adult life, you know, and it was very, very traumatic, very painful. The grief. I mean, I don't want to go too deeply into this because if you've experienced pet grief, you know, it's horrible. It was overwhelming. And in dealing with that also at like, peak pandemic, this was the summer when George Floyd was murdered. It was a very dark time. I had no job. Things felt so hopeless. I'm gonna tell you that Brenda is one of the ways I got through that. Her love and just always being there, just being there helped me get up every day, you know, And I will say something that I appreciate about cats, and I think this is because they are fundamentally different than me, is that they are not people pleasers.

B (56:32)

Yes, exactly.

A (56:33)

Right. And I need that in my life. You know, Brenda's not perfect. There is this video that I share periodically of me being doing an Instagram live and her just jumping up and biting me in the arm because she actually hates when I am talking to a screen. She doesn't understand it. It makes her really angry. But she. I don't know, like, in a weird way, I kind of admire Brenda.

B (57:04)

Her reaction to you talking on the screen, like, Cyrus is the opposite. He loves a zoom call. When I used to do Instagram lives, he absolutely would be front and center at the camera whether I wanted him there or not. Like, he wanted to be part of it. And I was thinking about to like, you made a comment earlier about, like, don't. It's hard to trust people who don't like cats. My partner of almost 11 years, when we met, kind of had that mindset I've learned over the years. Like, it's not cats in general. The issue is, you know, dogs by comparison are so loyal and engaged and, like, demand such attention. And they're just, they are people pleasers to evolve. Yes, that's the issue. And he, you Know, once he figured out, like, how to. How to work with a cat, how to love a cat, you know, on their terms. Things are different now. Like, he and Cyrus are buddies. They have. We call it secret cuddles. I'm asleep. Cyrus has his own space, but Scott. Well, my partner will often get up multiple times in the night, and the cat will join him. He'll be right by his side and want to cuddle with him. So they have secret cuddles. And it's very sweet. They definitely have a. A sweet relationship. I think my partner still. I don't know. It's still a cat, so he's like, I don't. I don't know. But they all have unique personalities, too. Like, you can't just, like, pass blanket judgment on all cats because, like you were saying about Brenda, like, some. Some cats think they're dogs. Some cats, if you have different behaviors or habits. I love them all.

A (58:58)

Yeah, me too. Me too. No matter how rude they are, I love them. Okay, well, something else that you and I both love that is slightly different is Keith Morrison. Do you want to explain for people who Keith Morrison is?

B (59:17)

Oh, yeah. If you don't know. Keith Morrison is a longtime journalist, TV personality, and reporter for the famous show Dateline. He has an extensive resume beyond that, but that was my introduction to Keith North. I'm a big true crime fan, which, interestingly, like, I don't know if this is something you share, Amanda, but there's. I think there's a high correlation. This is just anecdotal. I don't have any statistics, but I think there's a high correlation with survivors of trauma and child abuse having some interest or affinity for true crime. Still kind of figuring out the language to describe that, at least from my personal experience. But I first discovered Keith Morrison through the Dateline program on abc, a TV show as well. They have a podcast out now. When I discovered the podcast, it was like, it's. It's over. Yeah. So Keith Morrison, he is. He has a really special timbre of voice.

A (60:30)

Yes. It's very distinctive.

B (60:32)

Yeah. His speech patterns, like, the cadence, is really unique. He also has some of the best hair of anyone on television, and that has been true as long as he's been in TV that I know of. Silver fox. I might call him a silver fox. Locks. I don't necessarily find him attractive, but the hair is. Is rocking, for sure. It's all white now. Very thick and full.

A (61:00)

I'm checking something out. Is Keith Morrison married to Matthew Perry's mother? Yes. He is.

B (61:07)

He's also Matthew, the late Matthew Perry's stepdad, which I found out in the last year or two was kind of an interesting, you know, unexpected. I was like, oh, you know, yeah.

A (61:21)

Yeah, just like a little fun fact. What a. What a lucky lady. Although I've heard she's really awesome too. So what a lucky couple to found one another. Yeah. So I will just say, like, I rarely watch television. So the only time I have seen Dateline on television is in a hotel room where it seems like it is inevitably on. I, however, have binged and listened to every single episode of the Dateline podcast, which really is just the audio recording of the television episode. So there are times where they are clearly in the television program showing you something important that I miss in every episode. And I just be like, oh, they're showing something right now. It's cool. I'll just draw, draw some sort of inference from this, you know, but. But there is something. I mean, I will say not all people who have experienced trauma love true crime, but for me, I do feel that it helps me feel like I'm going to be safer and more protected in the future by listening to these things, that I'm going to take care of myself because I'm going to be ready for everything now. And also there is just something so soothing and hypnotic about listening to the Dateline podcast. Like, I can't explain it, but when I am stressed out, you know, out of my element, maybe traveling or something, putting that on, I'm like, ah, okay, everything's gonna be fine.

B (62:59)

Bring those full circle. Not to bury the lead, but when I stayed with you, Amanda, this was. It still cracks me up to this day. So one of my self soothing activities, one of my. Just like you were describing if you're in a stressful situation. In this case, I was traveling, was not, not in my own bed or my own environment. So like, how do I, how do I relax and get myself ready for sleep? So I put on the Dateline podcast and I will, I will search and search and search for the Keith episodes. Because not everyone. True by Keith. Right? Yeah, I will search and search. So I have a curated list of only the episodes where Keith is the reporter. I fired one up at Amanda's place. And the next day I remember you saying, did I hear Keith Morrison last night? And I knew immediately I wanted to talk to you about this because, like, not everyone knows, at least knows enough to recognize his voice. Like, that was really powerful and potent. I was like, me thinks maybe you're a fan as well. You know, it was just. It was really interesting and funny. Like, oh, I felt a little self conscious because I try to keep the volume, you know, just so I didn't want to be disruptive. But for you to have heard it and also recognize his voice made me feel seen in a cool way. I don't know.

A (64:36)

No, I mean, just for anyone who's listening. I live in a 150-year-old farmhouse. I don't own it, but I would love to. It's something we talk about. Like, could we convince the owner to sell it to us? Because we just love this house so much and it is not luxurious. Like, we don't have. I mean, you're not. You didn't get to experience this, Maggie. But we don't have central heat or anything like that. And it's also a very strange layout. And there is not a lot of, like, soundproofing per se. And so the guest room where Maggie was staying shares a closet with the bedroom where Dustin and I sleep. And so it is like a little conduit of noise. And I was laying in bed that night, drifting off to see sleep, and I really, for a moment, Maggie thought that I was dreaming about Keith Morrison. And as I was falling asleep, I have this very clear memory of saying to myself, you should tell Dustin about this tomorrow, because he probably thinks you dream about Keith Morrison's voice every night. And then I fell asleep. But then it turned out it was real and it had just, like, worked its way through the closet into our room and into my ears.

B (65:53)

You know, I think everyone has their own, like, bedtime routine. I, as a child, like, I didn't have the experience of, like, my parents reading to me, didn't really have a bedtime routine. And so as an adult, I've tried to, like, create that for myself. Like, the read to, you know, spoken to in a soft, soft, soothing voice until I fall asleep is like, that's something that really helps. And he just. Keith hits all the right marks, you know, And I, in my personal life, right there is kind of an inside joke. Like, all right, Keith's gonna read me a bedtime story. Like, it's time for Keith. And, yeah, it. It works every time. And I've got. I've actually done that on the trip away from, like, a situation where I needed to sleep. I just needed to, like, rest my brain a little bit. The passenger seat. And my travel companion was like, you got Keith ready to go? It's like, yes, he's ready. I don't know what I'm going to do when obviously I was going to say if. No, he will. He will eventually die.

A (67:09)

No, not allowed. We're gonna put him. Turning him to a cyborg if we need to.

B (67:16)

We'll have reruns to reflect back on.

A (67:18)

But yeah, no, I, I agree with, like, there's just something about listening to. To him specifically that when I'm out of my element can really just give me that moment of like, it's just less work to exist sort of mentally and, and, you know, at this point, over the years that we have known one another, Maggie, I have moved from Pennsylvania to Texas and then from Texas back to Pennsylvania, which means now many times I have driven all the way from Texas to Pennsylvania. And when we moved down to Texas, I drove the car with Brenda pulling a U Haul trailer, and Dustin drove our RV with all the other cats. It was a fair trade off. And when we were driving down, so that's like three days of driving alone, which is not something I have a lot of experience with, really. There was a day where the weather going through Arkansas was like, like blinding rain, where you can't see anything, right? And you're on the highway and a notification came through on the radio that was like, you know, the emergency broadcast system saying that there were tornadoes, that if you were on the road, you should pull over, you should try to get off, go to a gas station, what have you. And this was terrifying to me. And I was alone. Now, the irony of this whole thing is Dustin was like, I don't know, 30 minutes behind me on this drive, and he was at a rest stop eating Indian food and having the time of his life. But I was like, oh, I guess Brendan and I are going to die. And you know what? I put on, I put on the Dayline podcast and I just drove really slowly behind a tractor trailer and I was like, we're going to get through this. And I swear that made me grip the steering, steering wheel just a little bit less and get through it.

B (69:13)

Well, we're going to get through this.

A (69:15)

We're going to get through this. Yeah.

B (69:17)

Brenda, Keith, we're going to make it.

A (69:19)

We're going to make it. Because I was like, I don't know what to do. Should I pull off, go to a gas station? The nearest exit is still far away. And like, what about Brenda? And like, what if the tornado picks up the gas station? Like, I was just like, I don't know what to do, you know? And I was like, I'm drowning in my Own anxiety right now. Like, I need to drive this car. It's very dangerous. I need to stop panicking so that we don't. I don't wreck the car, you know. And we got through it, and there, you know, we got to the other side, and then the sun came out and it was like it never happened. And the weirdest thing is that Dustin never experienced any of that because he was 30 minutes behind me. And, like, by the time he drove that same stretch of highway, the storm had long passed. Such a wild day. And he was still texting me about samosas.

B (70:04)

Wow. I also just realized that I said it was an ABC program as an NBC.

A (70:11)

Oh, yeah, NBC. Oh, yeah. ABC is 2020, which I will just tell you, not as good quality as Dateline. Sorry. I've tried it.

B (70:23)

Will do in a pinch, but it's not that bad.

A (70:25)

Yeah, exactly. Okay, well, let's move on to the last part of our conversation, which is where we're going to talk about a mission that you feel needs amplification right now. You mentioned to me that you're managing a fundraiser for a young artist in Palestine. Can you just tell us a little bit about how that happened?

B (70:51)

Yeah. So this was. This was spring of last year. Obviously, what had been happening there had been happening, has been for decades, but it had been really heating up. And at the time, I was very active on social media. And I felt because I had a platform, I felt it was important to make it known, like, where. Where I stand. And as a gesture of solidarity, I. I was reading stories, you know, firsthand accounts from people in Gaza, people in Palestine sharing their experiences. I also went down a little bit of a rabbit hole into art by Palestinians. And so when I. I think it was the. The first time I said anything about kind of my. My stance publicly, I shared a piece of artwork from this artist. So this would have been. Well, it wasn't eight. It wasn't spring. This was 2023. This was like September 2023.

A (72:06)

I'm. I mean, I know that's real, but I just hate this has been going on for this long, you know, or even before that.

B (72:14)

That's definitely a, you know, a misconception, I think, of. Of folks at this point. Like, this is not new.

A (72:24)

Our whole lifetimes plus decades.

B (72:26)

Exactly.

A (72:27)

Yeah.

B (72:28)

So this was late 2023. I found this really amazing piece of artwork. I feel really passionate about crediting creators as well. So I tagged the person. Shared. Shared it in. In combination with. With a message again of solidarity against the genocide and Then April of last year, so all those months later, the artist contacted me in dms and I, I guess because I had tagged the person, they, you know, that was, that was enough. They felt like they could trust me or reach out to me. I don't know if I ever asked like, what, I mean, the inspiration, like, why did you reach out to me? They reached out to me because they needed help. This is a now 15 year old child in Gaza. Her name is Jenna. She, she reached out and asked about like, I mean, can you help me? Basically was the, the gist of it. But more specifically, can you help me with a fundraising campaign? So it was a direct request. She had reached out to me. I had no experience with fundraising in that capacity. I mean, I've worked a little bit in fundraising before. I wasn't sure about what all that would entail. So I said, you know, I, I want to help you and I need to, to figure out what, how to do this. Right. Is it even feasible? Because I didn't want to make any promises if I couldn't follow through. So we kept in contact. It was a period of a week or so. I'm asking other people who are in support organizations, other people who, who want to help, what's your experience? What's your advice? Is there anything I need to know, you know, so again, so that I can effectively support this person. And so, yeah, I got, got those questions answered, coordinated with her to get the information needed to, to launch a GoFundMe campaign. So the, the campaign, the original campaign we launched in October, excuse me, April of 2024. We've since launched another campaign in May of this year after having raised $5,000. Between the original launch and the launch of this new campaign, things changed a lot. And that is an understatement. Yeah. Over the period of that first year, she and her family, so her two parents and her three siblings who were all under the age of 16, 17, had been literally displaced, forced to move very quickly and urgently and under the most terrifying circumstances a person can imagine. I think they were relocated, displaced 11 times over a period of a year. So their, their home town, their home village was completely destroyed. They were evacuated, displaced to these different refugee camps all over the Gaza Strip and outside of it. And now they're back home as of January of this year, home being in their original place of residence or that relative geographical location and everything as far as infrastructure, everything around them has, I mean, they are in pursuit of rebuilding their life, their home, all of those things. So the new Campaign reflects that need. Whereas the original campaign was evacuation from Gaza, the funding was intended to go towards that because the situation and her needs, the needs of her family, changed so rapidly. We thought it prudent, right, to be transparent to donors about that. Evacuation wasn't possible. So those funds were leveraged for survival. Basic needs, including water, things that we have ready access to. Many people have ready access to here. That's a lot of information and certainly I'm guessing you probably have more questions, but that's the high level of how this came about and kind of where we're at now.

A (77:17)

So, you know, we talked about this before we started recording, and you talked a little bit about how it felt difficult, how you wanted to help, just generally and you didn't know where or how you could be of help. Right. How has being able to help someone and like, specifically like some people, like humans with names that, you know now, how has that helped you sort of like, cope with the, the tremendous grief and rage that comes with knowing what's happening right now?

B (78:04)

You know, there's, there's the emotional experience of it all. There's the feelings and then there's the doing and the actions. And if the feeling is, I want to help. And it was right. As I'm wrapping, trying to wrap my head around what is happening before this person even reached out to me, it feels so big and so complex. Like, where do you even start? I was almost frozen right in inaction because I was really caught up in the feelings. I, I don't have the capital resources to be able to donate to large organizations with any kind of regularity. Certainly not in any significant amount that would actually make a difference.

A (78:57)

Yeah.

B (78:57)

Oh, so big and so like, I, I couldn't. Like I said, I didn't even know where to start. So the opportunity of, I mean, I, I think an individual coming and asking for that help personally helped me focus a little bit more. You know, I, I can't help everyone. I cannot, I cannot even begin to conceive of doing something. There's no singular amount of money that will solve this. That.

A (79:35)

No, no.

B (79:40)

But the, the chance to help one person was like, I, I can't do much, you know, can't physically, emotionally, financially. What can I do? This is something that I can do. Right? And as far as the, the emotional experience of it all, the only way that I can be effective and effective being, taking some action, meeting this need, the specific, you know, if she had asked me to, you know, speak with her daily about her emotional experience, there's no way I would have capacity for that. There is the bearing witness, certainly that plays a role. And I, you know, in, in preparing to launch the campaign, I'm, I'm looking at photos, I'm reading about her experience and I am having my reactions and those things are separate from the doing, from the actual service and advocacy. So you have to create space for that. We talked about this a little bit earlier, right. You have to meet your own needs, you have to set boundaries, whatever that looks like, so that you can show up and be effective and take effective action. So it is not easy. And I'm not going to lie to you, I've leveraged compartmentalization more than one time. I have to sort of button it up, pack it away, set it aside, the feelings part of it again, to be able to show up and do the thing in this case, you know, it, it's not, it's not regular emotional support. There's no, you know, at the same time I'm a human and I know she's a human and I've been a 14 year old girl in a strange place with no resources before and so there's a lot of empathy there and I do certainly care about her. I, I check in regularly. If, I mean when several days lapse and I've not heard from her, I have to like that is that curiosity, that concern is ever present, you know, and if I don't hear from her, that might mean that the Internet has been completely, completely that infrastructure has been destroyed, which has been the case most recently. But also it's possible that she may not survive and I, I have to navigate that as well. Just like anyone who gives a about what is happening on a, on a broader level, again, this is a child and a child who has asked me, presumably from their perspective, a safe adult. I feel like I'm a safe adult. It's a big deal for her to feel safe asking me for help and I feel a responsibility to do that.

A (82:47)

What you're talking about right now, actually, it's sort of like brings together so many things that we have been talking about during this conversation about real human connection and relationships existing virtually. Right. And trust, trust being an important part of all of this. And lately I have, well, I'm always doing a lot of reading, but one thing I've been reading and thinking about a lot specifically this week is something called thought terminating. Cliches. Have you ever heard of this, Maggie?

B (83:25)

Thought terminating What?

A (83:27)

Cliches.

B (83:28)

Oh, cliche.

A (83:29)

Okay. So for anyone who doesn't Know what those are? A thought terminating cliche is often a phrase. Sometimes it's a cliche, sometimes it's not that people will sort of throw up in complex situations to discourage deeper extra exploration or questioning of that situation. Right?

B (83:52)

Thoughts and prayers, right?

A (83:54)

Yeah, that is an ex. That's an amazing example. Or like, I don't know, maybe your friend loses their job. And really when you think about it, like, that brings up a lot of fear of like the economy or like ageism associated with job searches or, you know, many, many things, right? But instead you say, well, you know, maybe this is a good thing because you know, what's meant to happen happens, or the universe will provide or this is the universe trying to tell you something. In perhaps in some religious situations it might be like, don't, don't question it, just believe, right? When you, when you talk to people about issues of like over consumption or fast fashion, they might say, well, there's, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. And that is not intended to be like any sort of like scathing indictment or beginning of a conversation about capitalism and the ethics of it. It's meant to say, shut it down, stop thinking about this bigger thing and just like, go buy a Keurig or whatever. Right? And something that I have seen thrown out there on Internet forums, like for example, Reddit, but also on other social media platforms as we talk about mutual aid, right? Which is very much what you're doing right now is I don't get involved with that because how can you trust that person? Or what if that person's a scammer? Or what if like in your situation all of that money is just really, it's like all a fraud and it's going to some like bot farm in Russia or you know, funding Hamas or what have you, right? Like I see people throw. That's a thought terminating cliche like, oh, you're probably being scammed. Scammed, right. It's probably a scam. And what this really is is you trusting two strangers on opposite sides of the world, trusting one another. Right? How, how difficult was it to trust someone you've never met in real life in this way?

B (86:01)

That's such a great question, especially with all that we've talked about, right? The, the online relationships versus in person relationships. So a couple of things come to mind. I, again, I'm, I'm not gonna lie to you, not gonna lie to listeners. There was a tinge of suspicion and the like in the immediate moments after receiving that initial message. Hey, can you help me and that there, there are bots and scammers absolutely out there who are masquerading as people in need. So I, you know, I am aware of this. I think the, the suspicion is healthy in the outset. Right. You don't want to just willfully trust anyone. There, There has to be some follow up. You know, I'm not going to release my bank details. Right. If the other party is releasing their bank details, that's that. Which is a critical component for launching a campaign, by the way, in case anyone is. Is curious about the mechanics of that. It is hard. And it was also clear to me, made clear to me just like it is with. Has been with. With other. I won't say all online interactions make, make the. Pass the test in that way. Right. Like I do have a really strong intuition and we had other, we had extensive conversations before I took any action. Like again to, to use my bank account to facilitate this. It's hard. And there was also the, you know, I don't know, like what, what is the worst that could happen? The worst has already happened. And any mistrust could have been a barrier to actually helping meeting this need that this person had shared with me. They could have reached out to anyone. Right. They, they obviously saw something in me. I'm going to assume it's because of, you know, the, the message that I shared and accompanying their artwork, all of that. It's, it's not easy. But after getting through the suspicion, you know, not. That's a feeling too. Like that experience, it was separate from communication with the person. You know, I didn't say how do I know you're real? That that was clear to me over a period of conversations. It, the other thing. So, you know, the, the, the transactional piece of it, the tactical part is, you know, having, having to set up an account, attach it to your bank account and then the disbursement of funds, that activity is, is something I have, I'm doing as well, which requires contacting the bank to initiate a wire transfer. And I was met with suspicion. It was well intentioned. Of course they're concerned that I might be a victim of a scam. But I, Right, right. It still happens on occasion. Like usually I end up with the same customer service person and they've gotten to know me. I'm like, it's, you know, it's Margaret Green again. Months, every two months at the latest. It kind of depends on how long it takes for funds to accumulate enough to send a wire transfer. It's definitely met with suspicion And I, again, I appreciate that from the perspective of the customer service person. But yeah, like in, in their position, in their shoes, like, you know, you're sending funds to Palestine, do you know this person? Is there a personal relationship? Have you ever met them before? And it was, you know, I'm, I'm answering these questions truthfully and I'm telling them like I, you know, I'm, I'm the campaign manager for GoFundMe for this, this child, this person in Palestine. But that, you know, it's, it's really tricky. I definitely have people advise that I not do this specifically, that I instead, if I wanted to help, help, you know, point them in the direction of one of the larger global organizations, relief aid, things like that. That's not what the person asked for. Right. And do how long is it going to take for this family? Right. Those relief funds, when you donate. And I'm not discouraging anyone from doing those things. Gosh, if you got the financial resources, please put them towards causes that you care about, causes, organizations that are actually doing the work on the ground. But you know, you don't see the impact. You don't know exactly where, where your economic power, whatever you have, goes. In this case, you know, I know exactly where it's going. She's sending photos and videos and voice messages. We've spoken live in real time before. You know, it's, I know her, I know her family now, you know, they are a part of my life.

A (91:43)

Yeah. And I think, you know, all mutual aid, whether it's happening with someone in your town or an organization in your town, a group of people in your town or across the world, it really does have to involve trust and like sort of the innate connection between humans. Right. And I often see mutual aid, mutual aid being dismissed via these like thought terminating cliches of like, well, it's probably a scam or how do you know it's not a scam? And I, I don't know, sometimes I'm like, I get it, there are lots of scams out there. Like I said, I watch a lot of catfish, I'm up on the scams. But I also feel that that kind of pushback is often raised not out of concern, but out of like, I don't want you to do it. Does that make sense? Like, it's like, I don't want to believe that mutual aid can work. You know, not me personally, but people who say that and you're just like, well, I'm sorry but like, I mean, and you and I talked about this in our. When you interviewed me. The systems that we have in place right now are actually do not guarantee help to everyone, you know, and like they don't guarantee easy, fast, timely access to help. Right. And so we have to work outside of that.

B (93:09)

Yeah. And kind of along those lines. Like I don't want to disparage the, the entities, organizations, teams and communities that are making a positive impact, that are, that are doing the right thing and non profit is a business and there is, there's some questionable and shady that goes. Yeah, you're telling me.

A (93:35)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so there is something to be said about direct, direct mutual aid. You know, and the thing about direct mutual aid, what makes it work is trust. Right. You, that person has to trust you to ask you to help them. Right. And not take advantage of them or exploit them in some way. Right. And you need to trust that they aren't scamming you. Right. That this is, isn't part of some larger plan to get access to your checking account or something, you know, and that is unfortunately like trust sometimes I feel like is one of. And this is a whole, this could be a whole episode in itself, Maggie. So we don't need to like follow this train of thought too far. But I think lack of trust in other humans is perhaps one of the biggest issues that exists in the world right now and makes things so dysfunctional that we don't trust our neighbors, we don't trust our governments, which we probably shouldn't, but we should at least be able to trust our neighbors. We may not trust even our friends. We certainly don't trust people on the other side of the world. And in some ways we have been programmed to not trust anyone.

B (94:58)

My personal policy is, is to trust first, you know, and that, that has gotten me into trouble before.

A (95:05)

But yeah, same same.

B (95:08)

Unless until I'm given an explicit reason not to. If you break my trust, it's over.

A (95:13)

Yeah, that's how I feel too. Like I come with an open heart.

B (95:18)

In this case, I did not share this before, before we actually started talking in our kind of pre interview. But that this, this experience has connected me with at least two more strangers. Put that trust into, into practice. There is a woman in Italy named Alice who also had been reached out to for help by a family in Palestine. Just so happens the recipient of that particular campaign and their family is like first or second cousin to Jenna. So those dots were connected. This other. The person in Italy reached out to me saying that they were encountering some challenges go Fund me as an insta, you know, as an institution, had changed some rules about what, what countries they would release funds to. And, you know, her. Her campaign recipient, whose name is Arwa, is a, like I said, Jonah's cousin. She'd reached out to me for insight and advice. And ultimately the solution, you know, that they asked. I did my research before I made any commitments. But the ultimate solution was for me to serve as a supportive conduit, to channel those funds to that intended recipient. And it involved the recipient of my. Of the campaign that I manage, Jenna, who is in contact with her cousin. They are not in the exact same geographical space, but so I. I am helping the person in Italy help another family in Gaza by, By serving that role. And it, it involves a fair amount of communication and coordination. You know, I. I let Jenna know, like, there's going to be another deposit coming, and it's, it's intended for Arwa, and she handles, you know, the transfer from her mother's account to Arwa's mother's account. Lots of trust, lots of moving parts and things in the balance there. And what's happening as a result of that trust, that mutual aid community building, even from such distance, like thousands and thousands of miles, you know, in a few days, you know, I'll get photos of the things that she was able to purchase. You know, I get a message from Arwa saying, thank you, we were able to get medicine for my sibling. Or, you know, it's. It's incredible. It is. It's definitely an exercise in trust. And I don't know, I guess, like I said, I don't have any reason not to trust these people at this point. I'm trusting myself to make good decisions in support of causes that I care about and when it comes to vulnerable children and families. And if I can help, especially if you're asking me for help and I can meet that need, I will show up for you. That's. That might be all I can do. You know, I might let other commitments and responsibilities fall away to make space for that. It's. It's definitely a delicate balance as far as that goes. But, yeah, trust. Trust plays a huge, huge role.

A (99:00)

Yeah. Yeah, no, I totally. I feel the same way that, I mean, like a month ago when you and I were talking about this interview, we talked about kind of how there are a lot of, like, beliefs that, like, the social safety net here in the United States, people take advantage of it, right? That don't need it, that it's really easy, and people, like, just don't want to work and milk the system. And they live these, like, lives of. Lives of luxury on the government dime. Right.

B (99:30)

And.

A (99:30)

And I'm like, all of that. I mean, you and I both know that all of that is, like, so untrue. And it really stems from people not trusting other. Their fellow citizens, basically, you know, to be okay people. And I just think it's hard to trust. I get that. But I think trust is an integral component of any positive change in this world. Totally.

B (99:55)

There's. There. There are plenty of people out there in the world, in this country not worthy of your trust, especially when it comes to, you know, do you trust a person? Do you trust a community? Or do you trust a system, an institution, a brand, a business? Like, you know, the. The brand doesn't care about you. You know, the. That's. It's business, right? It's profit. The. The people. Yeah. I mean, I'm. Like I said, there are people out there who are not worthy of your trust. But if you enter, if you operate on, like, mistrust first, you also lose opportunities to connect with people. You're. You're casting out or casting away people that, you know, might. Might could be, you know, one of the most meaningful relationships in your life, you know?

A (100:57)

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, I think we have finished our journey here. Do you have anything final you'd like to add here? Because, I mean, for a lot of close horse listeners, this is going to be their first. I mean, not their first exposure to Maggie Greene, the Halloween Queen, but their first exposure to your trip and, you know, your new podcast. So do you have any final thoughts you'd like to end this with that? You know, maybe we'll encourage them to come and give the full podcast a listen.

B (101:37)

Yeah, you know, we've. We've mentioned minimization. We've mentioned, like, reduction. I just want to remind everyone that I am a human being. Amanda is a human. As humans, all of us contain multitudes. Right? There are all kinds of interests that we share, values that we share. I think that's something to be celebrated, and it's easily forgotten, too. Like, hey, I'm. I'm a person with you.

A (102:06)

Yeah, yeah.

B (102:08)

So definitely remember that. Kind of along those same lines, my podcast, which will. I was going to say forthcoming. It's forthcoming now as we're recording it, but will be released this fall. By the time you all hear this episode, it will be out. It's called Attention Confidential and is all about trust. I focus on three themes. Self awareness, curiosity, and advocacy. And I say it's in a safe container. And it's all about trust, because guests have the opportunity to be anonymous, if that helps them feel safe, to share some of their. Honestly, some of their most intimate personal details. The conversations happening with the show are the kinds of conversations I've been having for years and love and cherish, off the record, bringing that to the forefront, empowering people to show up as their radically authentic selves and talk about the hardship. You know, there's definitely no. No small talk. Much like Closed Horse. We are not glossing over any of the. Any of the. The hard things. We're going straight the heart of the matter, so definitely check that out. Really excited for people to experience another level of you, Amanda. Our conversation really, you know, it's different than what you might hear on Close Worse, but it also is. Is a good reminder that, you know, Amanda has experienced a lot, has a lot of thoughts and feelings that are worthy of sharing. And just by virtue of being human, that's true of all of us. Right. Your story matters, your voice matters, and I want to help support that and amplify that as much as I can. Also, just like, as far as, like, calls to action here kind of takeaways, I know we're both word nerds. We're very enamored with language as a tool. This idea of a guilty pleasure, you know, we talked about in real life and online being real life. So IRL is not the antithesis of a virtual experience. We know that now. But this guilty pleasure, you know, we talked about joy as resistance. Some people, as they're thinking about what brings me joy, they might have these things they might consider guilty pleasures. Like, you have no reason to feel guilty or ashamed. Whatever it is that brings you joy or pleasure, those things are valid and should be absolutely celebrated.

A (104:46)

Yes.

B (104:47)

You know, you don't have to celebrate them in public spaces. Like, those things are just for you. When I think of guilt and shame, it's. It's often in context with, like, other people's perceptions or expectations of you. If there's any time, you know, in your life that leaning into pleasure, joy as an act of resistance, like it's now, like you said, Amanda, life is short. So I would encourage people to remember that, to practice that.

A (105:21)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great, great place to end this conversation because I will always be the advocate for giving yourself moments of joy. And you know what? It takes effort sometimes. Right now, it takes effort, and that's okay, because it's still. It's still an important part of keeping us energized and active and productive.

B (105:50)

Absolutely. Thank you, Amanda. This has been a wild ride.

A (105:57)

I know. We really, we really go places. So I'm sure you know, or at least assume that I edit all of the conversations you hear on Clothes Horse. I very lightly touched this one because ultimately this is Maggie's work and her vision and I didn't want to change it. And most of the time in other episodes I'm just editing for clarity or pacing. I always want all of my guests to shine, but. But other times on other episodes, I can edit pretty hard if I feel like the guest said something that just doesn't sit well with me or doesn't feel right for Close horse. I've even recorded entire conversations that have. I have never aired because they just, they didn't feel right to me. And yeah, that's an awkward conversation to have with someone, in case you were wondering. Anyway, last year I had a guest who was great, but they said something that kind of upset me. They said essentially that they don't think people should become friends with people who live outside their immediate geographical area because it is selfish and bad for the planet. After all, you will have to text and email and video chat to stay in touch and that consumes energy. And if you someday decide to visit that person irl, you'll take an airplane, a train or a car to get there. And that releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Essentially. If you care about the planet, you will only get to know people in your immediate surroundings. I went back and forth on cutting it from the episode, but ultimately I cut that because, well, I grew up in rural Pennsylvania where I felt so isolated and so lonely that I didn't know I could keep living. Sometimes and moving away to the city helped, sure, but as a person who has had to move around the country in order to keep my career going and support my family, I can't imagine sort of turning off the friendships I've made along the way just to save the planet. And as we've talked about here many times before, this sort of like purity, all or nothing kind of approach to activism, environmentalism, slow fashion. What that really succeeds in doing is not in making large systemic change, much less saving the planet. What it does is turn people off and drive people away from the movement. And that is the reason I ultimately cut that part of the episode out. Because one, I don't believe isolating yourself from the rest of the world is single handedly going to save the world. But two, I actually Think it's really harmful to isolate ourselves from people outside our immediate geographic location. These relationships are really important. Over the last five years, especially people I've met via Clothesh, almost all online have become an important part of my life. Maggie is a great example of that. Real friendships have grown and flourished and every time I meet one of my online friends irl, it feels amazing. I would never change that. In a time where everything is so scary, we need our friends more than ever, no matter where they live. And yes, emails and texts, they have an environmental impact. So does visiting your friend's irl. I get all of that. But why would we ever shut ourselves off to the rest of the world when we know that building these relationships actually gives us the opportunity to understand the world better, to connect, to inspire, and to literally build movement and make change? Ultimately, this is the very definition of progress, not perfection. Like, sure, I could turn off the Internet and never talk to someone outside of a five mile radius of my house in favor of saving energy, but could I maybe accomplish more by connecting with people all over the world? I mean, it's not the best environmental choice to eat frozen pizza for dinner sometimes. Think about it, the packaging, the impact of large scale food production. But Sometimes I've worked 12 hours and I just don't have it in me to cook dinner and I need to eat right. We can't let perfection be the enemy of good. And that's what happens when we say, oh, I can't eat packaged food for dinner even though I'm so hungry right now. And it's also what we're doing if we say like, oh, we can't use make friends in other parts of the world. This is all to say that I am so grateful for my virtual community, which is just as real and meaningful to me than any other relationships in my life. And while I hope to see you all in 3D at some point, I'm glad you show up here every week. It has changed my life. And you'll hear a lot more about that in part one of my conversation with Matt Maggie, which you can find on her feed, which of course I will share in the show notes. Well everyone, first off, there's a thunderstorm happening right outside and I've been having to stop recording in between really long rumbles of thunder, like 30 second rumbles. It's kind of wild. But also, I am leaving for Japan in 24 hours so I have have to go finish packing. And yeah, the next episode you hear of Clotheshorse will be recorded in Japan. So now it's time for me to say thank you for listening to another episode of Clotheshorse. If you liked what you heard, please leave a rating, a review. Tell your friends, of course. And if you'd like to support my work financially, there are so many ways you can do that. I would actually love it. I'm just going to be real with you right now, now and tell you that the Patreon for ClothesHorse brings in $500 a month and that just covers the expenses of running the podcast. So if you have the money to spare. And it's okay if you don't, seriously, but if you do, I would love for you to support my work. Of course, you can always support my work in many other ways that don't cost money as well, and it all is just as meaningful and important to me. Lastly, but but never leastly, thank you to my other half, Mr. Dustin Travis White, for our music and audio support, and I will talk to you all soon from the other side of the world. Bye.

B (113:10)

Sam.