← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
FROM THE DEPARTMENT: Secondhand News (the recurring and always controversial trend of secondhand fashion), Part 3: The 2000s
01:35:17
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Amanda.
- [00:01]
B
And I'm Kim.
- [00:02]
A
And this is the department, a podcast about trends and how they define the world around us. Well, welcome to episode 78. Here at the department. We've been on a long, very long and educational, so, so educational journey through the past 100 years of secondhand shopping. Following the pattern of secondhand shopping as a recurring fashion, retail and social trend. Yes, people have been buying and selling and sharing and trading secondhand items forever. But for our purposes we're focusing on it as a larger mainstream trend. As we said in the last episode, if you were into secondhand quote before it was cool. I'm assuming you are about 100 years old, give or take. And I would love to have you as a guest on this show to just tell us and make us jealous about how great thrifting was back then. So if you are about 100 years old, reach out to us. For everyone else, please go back and listen to the previous episodes because we will be referencing them a lot today. And by the way, I have a special surprise for all of you, including Kim. I originally thought this was going to be a two parter, then a three parter and now I'm realizing it's going to be a four parter.
- [01:51]
B
Oh, it's like the never ending podcast. But that's okay.
- [01:54]
A
I think that's great. I mean real talk everyone. Last week should have been a two parter when I was editing it on Monday. Cause it was two hours long. Was it two hours long? Yeah. So this is how if you want to let a behind the scenes peek of how we make the sausage here at the department, we usually record like Saturday, Sunday, something like that. And then Monday while I'm sort of like eating lunch. I work from home on Mondays. I edit. And so like I real talk like never sit down and just like eat lunch and do nothing else. I'm always working anyway. I'm like working on spreadsheets, like a lot of reporting and stuff. For me it's a great time to edit audio at the same time. Especially if I'm also like eating some lunch. I'm that kind of person who used to be doing three things at one time. But I was like, oh my God, this is two hours. When am I gonna edit this? So and there was this added wrinkle that you know Dustin, also an overachiever, he's in two bands here in Austin and one of his bands practices on Monday night. So I was like, well, he's gotta mix this when I'm done. But he's gonna leave for band practice at 5, so it has to be done. So what I did was get up at 6am to edit the department.
- [03:04]
B
Oh my gosh.
- [03:05]
A
This week we're going to try to keep it to one hour as give or take.
- [03:08]
B
I think. I think that's, that's a. That's a really good plan. I remember leaving the last one being like dizzy and exhausted, hungry. And I was like. I was like, what is wrong with me? I didn't even have to do the work.
- [03:21]
A
Yeah, I definitely felt like I'd been through something and when I was listening to it and editing it, in many ways it was like I was excited experiencing it for the first time. Anyway, so this is. We're gonna do this in four parts. Who knows if this one could pop up? I don't know. But this week's episode we're gonna. Which is part three of four, we're gonna be focusing on the odds. The decade that began on 112000 and ended on 1231, 2009. And I'm saying that because sometimes, like, honestly, Kim, I encountered people who were like. What did you mean when you said the odds?
- [04:00]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [04:01]
A
So just clarifying that. Right. Um, speaking of 11 2000, January 1st, 2000, Kim, did you have any anxiety about the Y2K bug?
- [04:12]
B
No, not at all. I didn't even have like my own computer or I mean, maybe like a desktop that didn't connect to the Internet. And then, you know, there was. We didn't have cell phones. We didn't. I mean, I had no money in a bank account. You know, it didn't really matter. I can imagine it would matter to someone who was, you know, in the business, industry and banking, you know, things like that. But me, I'm like, I'm just a kid, you know, I'm just a kid just going to college.
- [04:39]
A
I remember being like a little like. I mean. And the level of fear I'm talking about is very minor here where people had told me that if you. There was a chance you would wake up on the 1st and all the money in your bank account would be gone. And that was very, very fear inducing for me. Even though there's probably like $300 in there. And I did think about getting all the money out and like putting it in my room somewhere. And I was like, I'm gonna spend it all. If I do that, I guess I'll just let the cruel hand of fate decide to take it or not. But the aughts certainly Began with a lot of anxiety, you know, economic, social, the potential end of civilization as we knew it after the clock struck midnight. And it kind of continued to be an anxious time that also produced a lot of really great books. We obviously have a lot to discuss here. So before we get into that, Kim, do you want to give your weekly spiel?
- [05:33]
B
Absolutely. I'm trying to make it shorter and sweeter. So every single time I'm going to try to make it shorter and sweeter. But follow rate and review on your preferred streaming service. You know, it helps us get found, it helps us get more visibility. So, you know, if you interact with us on your streaming service, that's awesome, you know, so find us online at the Department World for show notes, image reference. And it has links to our Instagram account which, you know, if you have a couple bucks laying around, maybe stashed somewhere in some Y2K bank account, you can actually find a link on our Instagram bio and just kind of throw a tip in the tip jar. And all that help is really appreciated, you know, since we don't really do ads here. But speaking of ads, this is more of a shameless plug and you know, you know, so if you have it tuned into the department in the past, you know, a couple of months, you know that I have moved into a consulting and like kind of my own. My own world of consulting here in la and I'm growing that business and I just wanted to let everyone know, you know, I do offer consulting services. My website is Womp World W H O M P World. And so I'm a holistic business consultant and brand strategist. I have, you know, 20 years of experience in fashion, home gift and CPGs. So if you are looking for any sort of help or if you know anyone that's looking for help in sales, merchandising, marketing, brand, brand identity, all of those things. I actually consult with a lot of cool indie brands and you know, I am making new clients. So, you know, join me over at WAMP World and get to know me more.
- [07:36]
A
I just thought it was.
- [07:37]
B
It's a fun word. I just like the word.
- [07:39]
A
I love it. I appreciate it. You know, as you know, I'm a big fan of like an air horn.
- [07:44]
B
Yeah.
- [07:44]
A
And I, I do not, you know, I feel like I really like launched it here on the department, but it's become this thing with my team at work. Like one, a person on my team has an app that allows her to play air horn any time. God, we live in such a great time Right, Yeah. And yeah, anyway, we are air horning at inappropriate times all the time at work. It's awesome. And I just wanted to also add, like, on top of Kim's shameless plug, that I also offer consulting services primarily like to focus on merchandising, you know, small business, financial management, creating and maintaining P. Ls, pitch decks, that kind of thing. So you can find out more about what I do@close horseconsulting.com.
- [08:32]
B
Yeah, you can also work with both of us if you want to hear from us all the time.
- [08:36]
A
I mean, that's the dream, right? That is. I'm always like, when are Kim and I just going to start our own business and like, take over the world and vanquish our enemies? Right.
- [08:45]
B
I'm slowly trying to draw her into the warmth world.
- [08:49]
A
Definitely. Definitely. Anyway, okay, so support us, you know, hire us in all the ways. Yeah, in all the ways. Thank you so much for all of you who already do support us. Yeah.
- [08:59]
B
Drop a couple bucks in the tip jar. And thank you so much to the people that actually have dropped some things, some. Some dollars into the tip jar recently. It's so nice to see and we really, really appreciate it. So thank you. And if you can't, no biggie, no worries.
- [09:12]
A
Then, like, just tell your friends to listen to the department, which that's also super beneficial for us too.
- [09:17]
B
Yeah.
- [09:18]
A
All right, well, I'm gonna say something that I feel like maybe makes me sound a little teenagery, but I have been thinking for quite a while that the aughts were the most socially transformative decade of my lifetime so far. And the key driver of that transformation was technology, particularly the Internet. Some of you might not recognize that term. You might be looking for world wide web, maybe information superhighway. The Internet really changed a lot of things for us. Right? But we also had cell phones, which I don't even think people call them cell phones anymore. I think they're just straight up phones. I don't know how we lived without carrying a phone with us everywhere, ever, Everywhere we go. I mean, I know there are some drawbacks to it, but, man, I'm happy to have a computer in my pocket at all times. Phones that took photos, Right. So Dustin and I were recently watching an episode of Designing Women, which plenty of very cool people do in 2023, and very relevant. And we were watching an episode. I only saw a little bit of it because I was like, multitasking. But one of the characters, the one played by Annie Potts, she decides she's Gonna get br. But then at the last minute, she does it and she spends the money to get a video phone. And we're like, oh my God, we can't wait to see this. And basically it's like a phone that someone puts a picture of themselves on and so you can see a picture of them, but it's not really like FaceTiming. And it made me think of like early flip phones and the teeny tiny photos that you would take of your friends. And then what would you do with them? Nothing. Because it was like not connected to the Internet.
- [10:58]
B
Yeah. And they were like really pixelated. Couldn't do much with them.
- [11:02]
A
You didn't care, you were happy texting. Another thing that just like really changed the way we communicate and connect with one another. The same thing is like email as a regular form of correspondence also changed. Like we. The way we communicate, we no longer send as many letters or faxes. Social media, I don't even know where to begin there, but like, social media was still in its very early days in this first decade of this century, but it also changed the way people connect and got to know one another. Right. It also, all of this technology changed how people bought and sold secondhand items. In fact, people made whole ass businesses, some so huge that I have worked for two of them that began by selling secondhand clothing online and turned into like a big hundred million dollar a year kind of companies. We'll get into that in a bit. But first I wanted to get started by getting a feel for the economic situation in this decade, because that has an impact on what we're buying, whether where we're buying it and what we are or are not donating when we're done with it. And to be honest, as I was refreshing my memory of all this stuff, I got kind of sad, Kim, because millennials have really been through it. Like, it sucks. We joined the workforce as boomers, were kind of in their prime of shitty, abusive behavior in the workplace.
- [12:33]
B
It still are sometimes.
- [12:34]
A
Yeah. True story. And at the same time, we were dealing with a lot of economic factors that made it hard to feel safe and stable. What a time to begin your career, to begin your adult life.
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B
Real rocky.
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A
Yeah, real Rocky. So in 2000, the tech bubble burst with $6.2 trillion of financial wealth vanishing into thin air. This was actually larger than the stock market crash that set off the Great Depression. And basically it was like in the late 90s, all of these tec tech startups were starting like, you know, Yahoo and ebay, which we're going to talk about later. And lots of other. Lots of other platforms and companies that are gone in history now. Like, we'll never remember them unless you're like, an expert in that space. But investors were like, oh, my God, this is the future. And they were right. But they threw so much money into these companies without any real idea of how they could be profitable because no one knew. The Internet was new, and a lot of these early incarnations flopped, and a lot of people lost their jobs. These were people who were like, a little bit older than us, who were already adults. But I even had a friend. He was a couple. I don't know, he maybe was like five, six years older than me. He lost his job working for, like, a company that was. I mean, honestly, I think they were trying to do virtual reality, which that thought of doing that in 2000 makes me laugh.
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B
Wow. Yeah, exactly.
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A
Because we're still not there, but know, like, a lot of people lost their jobs really, really fast who worked in the tech sector. The recession that followed that 2000 crash wasn't. Wasn't horrible, but it was long. And it was what we call a jobless recovery. During the entire Bush number two administration. Bush number two, Bush number two. The median household income never came back to its peak in the late 1990s. And we know that even in the 90s, people were still already struggling. Right. This idea of a jobless recovery means that while productivity and retail sales rebounded and so the economy overall looked okay on paper, people didn't get better jobs or even more jobs. Unemployment did not improve at all. So it just sucked. Right. And then we have the big daddy of them all, the Great Recession. The average household wealth was cut in half. Wages decreased, decreased, unemployment soared to 10%, and the US GDP fell by 3.9%. And this happened in 2008. The housing bubble burst at the same time, with another $6 trillion of financial wealth vanishing, there was a crisis of foreclosures. People lost their homes at a rapid rate. At the same time, prices increased. A dwindling supply of crude oil pushed gas prices from about $1 a gallon at the beginning of the aughts to almost $4 by the end of the decade. I wasn't really, like, caring about gas prices for most of that decade. I didn't even have a car, but I do remember hearing people say, like, oh, my God, here in Portland, gas is like 4,35 a gallon, which feels like kind of what the price is right now.
- [15:58]
B
Yeah, almost $6 too now. But, you know, it's been 20 years.
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A
So you can tell I don't get gas very often. I'm like, I don't even know. But economists broadly agree that while the aughts were not as bad as the Great Depression, they were much worse than the 1970s. And remember, we talked about the 70s. Like, people were like, we gotta cut our losses and move on and pretend it never happened. You know, this is like how we should probably be feeling about the odds, but yet none of us. It's like we didn't know, you know?
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, everybody's just. Everyone's reflecting on all the good times there were.
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A
And there were good times. I tell you stories all the time. But I also remember being like, holy shit. Like, I'm always one missed paycheck from, like, certain ruins.
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B
A hundred percent.
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A
And we also see during this period the developing student loan crisis picking up steam as millennials and younger Gen Xers are graduating from college with wild debt. Some of them also having really extreme credit card debt as well, because they were like, hey, are you 18? Here's five credit cards and a free Frisbee at, like, college orientation.
- [17:07]
B
I rem. Yes. I think I signed up for. For something to get one free thing for, like a Discover card. When I was in college, one of.
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A
My friends declared bankruptcy, Kim. And she was like, 23. Yeah. All credit card debt. It was crazy.
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B
I mean, and people were also graduating with, you know, maybe in very competitive job markets or job markets that didn't really need a graduate, you know? You know, I feel like a lot of, like, arts programs and English. English program. And it was really, really hard for people to find jobs that could even pay for living expenses, not to mention to pay off your goddamn debt.
- [17:51]
A
I mean, jobs were really hard to find for young adults, especially in your field. Like, I think Gen X had already proven that. You know, just because you went to college didn't mean you got a job now or at least a job that would help you pay for your student loans. It was just. It meant, like, you might get a job maybe. Yeah, right.
- [18:07]
B
Or you. Or you got to go into graduate, a graduate degree and get more.
- [18:12]
A
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I had so many friends who got their first student loan statement from, like, Fannie Mae or whatever, and they were like, oh, my God, I'm so fucked. Like, what am I gonna do? I had friends who check out some more like, predatory, like, private loans for school. And those were my friends who I was like, I don't know what you do here. Like, at least I could Reach out to, like, I didn't have a lot of student loans because I fortunately had a lot of financial aid for college. But what I did have was still a huge burden with, like, making $6 an hour. But I was able to, like, work with, like, income repayment, you know, like, based on my income. But, like, if you had one of those private loans, it was like, forget it. I remember my friend getting a bill and they wanted like 800amonth from her, which was like, her more than her rent. Yeah, I mean, just, it was, it was, it sucked. And it was definitely the era of like, oh, we're taking applications at urban outfitters, and 9 out of 10 people who apply have a master's degree. This job pays $1 more than minimum wage, you know.
- [19:14]
B
Exactly.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was tough. Everything sucked in the aughts, even though we didn't know it or we did, but we didn't know completely. And so it's no surprise that people had less money to spend and secondhand was a better option. So the buy sell trade stores like Crossroads and Buffalo Exchange actually experienced incredible growth during this period. Like, I know that was like one of my first places to buy clothes. In Portland, we had a lot of them. They always had really good stuff. When people have less money, they. They no longer want to give things away to a donation bin. When they're over it or done with it, they want to make a little bit of cash off of it. And so we saw this, this back in the 1970s when thrift stores saw a drop in donations because middle class people who were really struggling under the pressure of inflation were selling their stuff at yard sales and flea markets rather than just giving it away. Now it's this new century and you can just take it to a store down the street and get. I don't know, it was always like 50% in trade or 30% in cash. It was always a bad deal to take the cash. But how often did you really find something to trade? I don't know. Did you ever use any of these places?
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B
I did, but I, you know, I only do the cash because I just don't need more stuff.
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A
Right, right. Yeah, yeah. That's how I feel too. And I, I mean, listen, anytime I was getting short on rent, I'd go into my closet, grab a bunch of stuff and take it to the Buffalo Exchange, you know, like, that was just a lot of us, how we were, like, getting by. So I, I was laughing at this early 2008 New York Times article. This is pre financial crisis, right? So this is early in 2008, a more innocent time, if you will. And it explained how these buy sell trade places work just because, I don't know, I guess I was just laughing because it felt like someone trying to explain a cool new thing to someone who was out of the loop. But it was just like so ridiculous that someone wouldn't understand how this works. I don't know.
- [21:13]
B
I mean, I feel like my mother still wouldn't understand how it works and would love to read this article.
- [21:18]
A
That's true. Two national chains, Buffalo Exchange and Crossroads Trading Co. Allow shoppers to bring in clothes they no longer want for cash or to trade for clothes in the store. Both promote their fashionable offerings in an attempt to appeal to younger shoppers, and both offer a combination of new and what they term recycled clothes. A lot of the neighborhood men who shop in our store are very style conscious, said Mary Dalton, the manager of a Crossroads store near the Castro district in San Francisco. I bet that was a good one. They can recycle their clothing and not wear it into the ground. Sustainable businesses are becoming more trendy, so people are more open to it. Prices, she said, range from $6 to $75. And get get ready for a time capsule here, everyone. Popular jeans like Diesel or g star cost $50 to $65 a pair compared with a regular retail price that can be double or triple that. People will get three or more garments for the price of one, she said. We get all kinds of customers, from an attorn clothes to the college age hipster. The age range is very, very wide.
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B
That is a really funny article. I think it's just really, it's really dated.
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A
It's really dated. I like the whole thing. Made me laugh a lot because this article then goes on to briefly expand upon the idea that people are also buying items from the thrift store at a low price and then flipping them via consignment shops or like, you know, Buffalo Exchange, Crossroads kind of places at a higher price, turning it into an income stream. As if this is like the most shocking thing anyone has ever heard. And I was like, well this is how a lot of my friends were managing their money around 2005. So I agree. Yeah, right. It's kind of just such an obvious thing. Especially since this article was written in 2008, well into the first full decade of an even bigger disruptor in the world of secondhand shopping. Dun dun dun dun ebay. Finally, Kim, do you remember the first thing you ever bought off of eBay I cannot remember. I can remember two things that I think happened in the same year. One was a hello Kitty contact lens case from Japan. Very important, right? And two was Liz Fair whip smart on white vinyl. Wow, what a time capsule. Oh, yeah.
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B
I can't believe you remember that too. I mean, I can't, I can't. I'm like, racking my brain. I'm like, what did I buy? I know I bought stuff.
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A
I definitely would buy hello Kitty stuff because that stuff wasn't widely distributed. And so, like, if you really wanted to get cool stuff, you'd have to buy it online. And it was also a really great place for records. And then pretty, pretty soon after that, I got into clothing for sure. But in the beginning, ebay did not offer clothing, so it was more like records, collectibles, that kind of thing. I remember also around that same time buying my roommate Nate a mint in still in box Brandon Walsh, Beverly Hills 90210 doll, which he was delighted by because he had a huge crush on Jason Priestley. That was the kind of stuff you could buy on ebay in the really early days. So ebay was born in 1995, just four years after the birth of the Internet. And like a lot of legends, ebay began its life with a different name. It was called auction web, which is pretty straightforward.
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B
Yeah, it doesn't have that je ne sais quoi that ebay, does it?
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A
Does ebay have a je ne sais quoi?
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B
It's so maybe slightly more than auction web.
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A
Well, ebay was wildly disruptive and so new because it brought two new concepts to the world via the burgeoning Internet. One was buying secondhand stuff online from total strangers. And also shopping peer to peer rather than consumer to retailer. You were literally buying stuff from randos. You know, you weren't buying it from JCPenney or Delia's or what have you. It was just another person. And these were two really wild ideas. That secondhand stuff would be sold on the Internet, which was all about the future, and that you would just buy it from another person like that. Nothing like that had ever happened online. And to be fair, it was only a few years into the Internet. But it's interesting to see that of all the things that have come and gone or changed forms in the history of the Internet, the short history of the Internet, if you will, ebay is the model that has probably made the most money and had the most staying power. And we see it reflected in every secondhand platform out there right now, right so ebay certainly had the je ne sais quoi when it came to so, like, changing the world. I guess if I founded ebay, I would be, like, pretty high on myself right now, just saying, yeah, yeah, I.
- [26:29]
B
Think you'd be living in a mansion somewhere.
- [26:31]
A
Right? In the beginning, ebay was focused on collectibles. Toys, comics, coins, pottery, and eventually vintage clothing. Beanie Babies are actually one of the main reasons that ebay kind of got over the hump and grew as much as it did.
- [26:48]
B
My gosh, I didn't even think about it.
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A
That must have been a game changer. They were, like, one of the key sellers on ebay at the peak of the Beanie Baby bubble. At some point, Ty, you know, not our friend Ty, but Ty, the maker of Beanie Babies, had tried to run its own ebay style Beanie Baby exchange on its own site, but it just couldn't keep up with demand, and the site would crash constantly. All the Beanie Baby maniacs, which of which there were many, they migrated to ebay, just like, creating massive growth for the platform. And when ebay went public in 1990, 1998, like, Beanie Babies were such a key part of its revenue that there was legit concern from investors. It was actually, like, listed as a risk in their SEC filing that the business was so reliant on Beanie Babies that the platform might go under if the Beanie Babies bubble. Say that 10 times fast.
- [27:46]
B
I know, I know.
- [27:47]
A
Beanie Babies bubble ever burst, right? Like, and we know that, in fact, the Beanie Baby bubble did burst, right? And ebay kept going. But a big part of that is that they brought in Meg Whitman, who is like the legendary CEO of eBay for quite a while, who really made helped the platform expand beyond Beanie Babies and make it more financially stable. She expanded categories and brought in so many more users. In 2000, eBay had 12 million registered users and a cyber inventory of more than 4.5 million items on sale in any given day. And by 2001, it had the larger user base of any website. Last year, ebay was the biggest peer to peer resale platform in the world, doing almost 10 billion in revenue last year alone. I mean, ebay is like, people forget about ebay, which is, you know, it's too bad for them because there's a lot of cool stuff on there still. So, like, Kim, do you have any memories of anything you've bought on ebay? Like, when was the last time you bought something?
- [29:03]
B
I think the last time I bought something, I bought it was a poster from a Swedish museum, and it was. Yeah, it was like this, like, Andy Warhol quote. And, you know, you couldn't really get it anywhere because they'd stopped running it. And so I found it on ebay. So, yeah, really kind of sourcing those very niche products, particularly, like, internationally, I think is, like, super valuable.
- [29:28]
A
Valuable, Totally. Dustin and I always used to joke about, like, trying to stump ebay. Like, think of something that you think might have existed and look for it on ebay. And if it did ever exist, it was definitely there. And no matter how niche it was, and actually, like, ebay, still, if you're looking for something really specific, it's a really great resource, especially if it's, like, the more esoteric, the better. Like, Dustin likes to search for vintage NPR posters on there, for example. Like, that's actually pretty cool. Yeah, really cool. Yeah. Yeah. So I. EBay's still going strong. There is, like, more of a mix on there of, like, new stuff, and I guess automotive is, like, a massive part of their business. We did one time buy a part for our Volvo on ebay, and it was, like, a huge part that had to come delivered by, like, a totally different truck instead of, like, in a, you know, like a regular UPS box or something. So ebay had. Has, like, got all kinds of stuff going on right now. In the early days of ebay, most purchases were paid for via money order, which still just like, oh, my God.
- [30:38]
B
Bonkers.
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A
Bonkers.
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B
Blows my mind. I remember having to do money order, though. Or it was like, yeah, a cashier's check for rent when I lived in New York.
- [30:48]
A
Oh, God.
- [30:49]
B
And you had to go and get one every time. Oh, it was the worst. Like, so now you can only imagine anything. Time you wanted to buy some money. EBay, you had to go to the goddamn bank.
- [30:58]
A
Yeah. Or the post office, because post office filled money orders, too. But still.
- [31:02]
B
Oh, my God, the po. What's worse?
- [31:04]
A
Yeah, the bank or the post office. I know. Agreed. Agreed.
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B
No offense to any bankers or postal or post.
- [31:11]
A
Yeah. But, like, the line, you know, there's no fun to be had. You're like, oh, maybe they'll have some new stamps I can buy. Yeah. Every once in a while, a seller would. Would accept personal checks, but that was really rare, of course, because once again, this is, like, person to person.
- [31:27]
B
It's like trust. Like, there's not a lot. You have to be able to trust the buyer and the seller.
- [31:32]
A
Yeah. And so for those of you who might be, like, less familiar with checks, you could write a check and it could bounce, meaning that you didn't have enough money in your checking account, and then whoever you wrote it to would have to pay a fee, as would you. I mean, banks. Banks are making, like, all the money, right? Yeah, yeah. Dustin and I recorded an episode of Closed Source few weeks back that was about 1, 900 numbers, among other things. And we were like, oh, my God, the telephone companies were making a cent off of us every minute that we lived in different ways, you know, And I feel like banks, they still are, but back then it was, like, really egregious. So rarely did someone take checks. So you'd have to, like, if you bought something, you'd have to go buy a money order, mail it to the person who sold it to you. They would deposit that just in case it was fraudulent, and then they would ship the order to you. So it'd be like two, three weeks before you got what you ordered. I think you had 10 days to pay. I mean, it was like, this was. This was kind of like slow fashion, really.
- [32:32]
B
Yeah. I mean, it definitely made you really think hard if you really wanted that thing. It wasn't like. It's not like Amazon, where you, like, you basically hover your hand over the app. It just knows exactly what you want and suddenly you spent $250 again.
- [32:47]
A
Yes, exactly, exactly. So, yeah, this was like quite a process, and it was really inconvenient for everyone involved, which was great. Then when PayPal came onto the scene in 2002, PayPal allowed people to pay online for their purchases. It was like the latest and greatest technology, major game changer. And by 2002, 70% of all eBay auctions accepted Pay PayPal payments. And roughly as a result, 25% of all eBay purchases were made via PayPal. Because some people still said, hey, I'd rather pay via money order somehow.
- [33:28]
B
I mean, I think that'd be my mom. Like, my mom does not trust PayPal to this day.
- [33:32]
A
I get it.
- [33:32]
B
She will not use it.
- [33:34]
A
I definitely, like, back, I don't know, like a year or two after Justin and I got married, when I was living in Portland, someone got hacked into my PayPal account and took a lot of money out of my checking account.
- [33:46]
B
Whoa.
- [33:46]
A
Yeah, not trying to be anti PayPal here. PayPal fixed it and I got my money back within 24 hours. But it was, like, really stressful. I was like, I am going to explode. This is so stressful on top of everything else. But, yeah, PayPal was like, really? It Kind of. I don't know. I mean, you're. I know, you're like a marketing expert, Kim. So you know what I'm talking about here, where it took that extra layer of thought out of a purchase, which is something that a reset. A seller of a company, really a retailer of any type, is a friction point, right? Yeah. You might change your mind, you might abandon your cart if you think about it too much. So the faster you can check out, the better. Right, and so PayPal helped with that. Um, the thing was that PayPal was making a fortune all off of all of those transaction fees. And ebay wanted a piece of that pie after all. Like, I'm sure ebay looked at it as like, PayPal is basically making money off of all of our ebay's hard work. So it made perfect sense for ebay to buy PayPal in 2002, two for a cool $1.5 billion. So the integration of PayPal made it even easier and faster to shop on ebay, which made shopping for clothing, especially secondhand and vintage, far more appealing. Now, now you could actually receive something in maybe a week, not wait a month to get an outfit, which is just like, not how humans work. Humans don't want that, right? At this point, I don't think buy it now is very common. So you still would have to bid and wait and you could set a timer for the last few minutes of an auction so that you could, like, be sure to get in there and. And win. Everyone had their own strategy for swooping in and winning at the last minute. So it was still, like, not guaranteed that you would get to buy something that you wanted to buy. And I think that that engaged people even more because it was like, oh, do you like shopping? Do you like easy shopping? Do you also like gambling? Well, have I got something for. So flipping secondhand clothing, particularly vintage, but also vintage books, home goods, records, anything really became a full time job for many early adopters of ebay. Of course, this also allowed hipsters all over the world to meet up over a cheap beer or a well whiskey and complain about how ebay was ruining thrift stores and how now there was nothing left. We know that it's not true, of course, but it turns out that complaining about resellers has a trend cycle of its own. And here we were complaining about ebay. At this point, thrift store prices were a lot lower, and the assortment at the bins was plentiful, and estate sales and yard sales were full of treasure. It was hard work, for sure. But one could source a few days each week and then list products to sell on ebay. The drawback is, and this has to be so hard, if you're a person who's like, my income depends on ebay. You would have to wait a week or more for the auction to end and sometimes much longer to get paid. And you would have to hope that people would buy it for the price that you were imagining they should pay for it. Because remember, you could set a reserve and if it didn't hit that, the auction would be void. But in general, you were patiently hoping, putting some faith into customers being willing to outbid one another. And this is another one where my friends who sold on ebay pretty regularly, they definitely had much like people have a lot of tips and tricks around how to boost your engagement on Instagram, around timing and keywords and whatnot. People were doing the same thing on ebay, like, oh, well, the best thing you can do is make sure the auction ends at this time, on this day. You know, like, stuff like that. So there were definitely people gaming the system there. There were definitely people who would love to sell you information about how to make more money off of ebay. And there were people who made money money by selling stuff for other people on ebay. So ebay was like, there were like those stores. Yeah.
- [37:45]
B
Remember those weird stores you try to go in? And they weren't really stores because they were all on ebay.
- [37:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So more and more smart vintage lovers were making ebay a regular shopping destination. It's important to remember that Etsy, where a lot of people buy vintage clothing now, didn't launch until 2005, and it didn't add vintage clothing to its platform until 2008. So eBay was the only game in town until 2008. And when Etsy started allowing vintage sales at that point, a lot of people moved over there. I know a lot of people who ended up moving back to ebay at a certain point because Etsy kind of sucked for them over time. So what were people buying both on eBay and IRL? Well, for one, people were continuing to buy secondhand contemporary clothing by specific brands. We saw this begin in the 80s as the brand printed on the label of a garment was just as important as the garment itself. But what really changed was the brands. And I. I'm going to just tell you, Kim, like, I know we did an incredible series, if I do say so myself, about the aughts, was that last year, I don't even know it was so Long ago.
- [38:59]
B
I can't remember.
- [39:01]
A
As a side note, frequently when I was googling some of the questions I had for this about the odds, our. Our. Our website came up, which was great. Um, I was like, oh, wait, that's called SEO. Amanda, great job. Justin was like, whoa, the department is like number two in your search results on hipster style icons of the aughts. And I was like, I know, this is amazing. Anyway, we did all of that research and we were really in it for a while, and I think my brain was like, okay, I don't want to think about that again. And so as I was researching what people were buying secondhand in the odds, what brands mattered, what people were wearing, some of it was so appalling. Calling disgusting.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah, I bet.
- [39:41]
A
I was just like, oh, my God, why are people. Why is this back? So, for example, high end denim was a big deal, way even a bigger deal than it is right now, for sure. And savvy shoppers were looking for deals on slightly worn or NWOT new without tags or NWT. That's the major score. New with tags brands like 7 Citizens of Humanity, Diesel, Miss 60, Miss Me, Apple Bottoms, True religion. And you would find a lot of these jeans being either slightly worn, possibly stolen, and sold as new, or, you know, somewhere in between. On ebay, there were also the it brands of the mainstream culture. Vonda, Juicy, Abercrombie, Baby Fat, Ed Hardy, Tommy Girl.
- [40:35]
B
Ugh.
- [40:35]
A
That's just the beginning of the list. I will say, having looked at a lot of pictures of these clothes today, I'm really shaken up. Might start drinking after we're done recording.
- [40:44]
B
There's a little bit of trauma that came with this episode.
- [40:47]
A
Wait till we get to pictures of, like, some of the biggest mainstream style icons of this era. Dustin. I'm just gonna say there's a picture of Lauren Conrad where I was like, pasting it into the stock when Dustin was talking to me, and he visibly shuddered when he saw it. Also, people were buying luxury brands like Chanel, Marc Jacobs, et cetera, online as well, which to me feels like hella risky because it's not like ebay was really like, authenticating it. And there was a huge case, I want to say it in the aughts, that was Tiffany versus eBay. Not Tiffany the singer. Like, I think we're alone now, but Tiffany, the iconic blue box jewelry brand. And they were basically like, ebay is selling counterfeit Tiffany on our web on their website. And ebay won the case because the judge ruled that since ebay wasn't actually ever taking possession of the inventory. Like it was just being sold peer to peer. How could they know if something was inauthentic? And that's just where the law has been for a long time. So people could be selling you fake stuff on any of these platforms, although technically they're not supposed to be. Um, in terms of vintage that was selling at this time, this was the realm of the hipsters who had different desires based on their sort of like, sub genre of hipster ness. Vintage tees made everyone happy except for Kim's mom, who would throw them out.
- [42:13]
B
Exactly.
- [42:14]
A
Uh, often people were looking for tees from the 70s or later. These were often seen as a part of indie sleaze. But really, hipsters of all variety still to this day continue to wear vintage tees.
- [42:25]
B
The more ironic, the better.
- [42:27]
A
Right? Right. The party slash electric clash hipsters wanted all the 80s they could get. Black clothing, cocktail dresses, avant garde silhouettes. That's literally how I would search for this stuff on ebay. I would just type in avant garde.
- [42:41]
B
Yes, me too.
- [42:43]
A
That's.
- [42:44]
B
This is taking me back.
- [42:46]
A
Right? I know, I know. Oversized blazers, you know, pointy shoes, all kinds of stuff there. The more twee slash craf. Hipsters were really into mod, but they would also take some 50s or 70s if they found it. We're talking like secretary blouses, novelty print dresses, cardigans, vintage purses, brooches. There are so many brooches happening then y'all have no idea. If you want, put a bird on it, put a bird on it. If it's vintage, even better. And this is like, you know, I didn't think of this until just now as we're talking, but this is when the idea that any of us can read, make secondhand stuff into something new, like, really caught wind. And in some ways that meant just literally butchering a perfectly innocent T shirt by cutting it up and safety pinning it back together. I had this book that I totally bought at Urban Outfitters on sale and the aughts that was all about taking T shirts and turning them into new kinds of T shirts via cutting and tying and pinning, et cetera. This is where we start to see upcycling kind of really beginning as a fashion statement to mixed results. Um, and later in this decade, we start to see boho of the 60s and 70s become a massive trend, kind of at the end, really setting us up for the next decade. So we'll be talking about that more in next week's episode. But I always refer to that 2008, 2009 through, like, I don't know, 2015. As the. As Amanda's been through the desert on a horse with no name era. So we'll talk about that more next week. But we saw, like, basically just about anything secondhand except for 90s stuff was very appealing at this point. 90s was one of those things. You would go to the thrift store and It'd be like 95% stuff from the 90s, and you'd be pissed off. And you'd say, it's all because of those people selling on ebay.
- [44:42]
B
Exactly.
- [44:43]
A
Yes.
- [44:43]
B
It has to be their fault.
- [44:45]
A
It has to be their fault. So ebay was the most convenient place to find exactly what you wanted. Second. Secondhand, no matter what your taste was. Because for the first time ever, you could just type words into a little box and have thousands of options to browse, all without leaving your couch. And odds were high that you would have never encountered most of the stuff irl. So, I mean, really opened it up.
- [45:10]
B
That depends if you had a desktop, which most people did at that time, or a laptop.
- [45:17]
A
True. You're right. I remember having a friend who had a laptop in this period, and it was the most absurd thing I know. I definitely had a desktop. Thanks for calling me out on that one.
- [45:29]
B
You're welcome. I was like, my couch. I was like, how am I gonna bring this whole big element over anyway?
- [45:35]
A
The only person I knew with a laptop definitely could not use it on a couch. It was too big and hot.
- [45:42]
B
Yeah, they got really hot. Yeah, I think. I think that was the time period that Apple came out with those colorful ones.
- [45:48]
A
What were those called? They were called imac.
- [45:50]
B
I. Well, there you go. Imac.
- [45:53]
A
They were so cute.
- [45:54]
B
They were. I really like them. Gilmore Girls had one and I was like, I want one of those. I never got one.
- [45:59]
A
This reminds me of something we haven't talked about in a long time, which is, of course, Sex and the City. And remember when Carrie's computer broke and she was being such a big.
- [46:09]
B
She lost everything. Yes.
- [46:10]
A
Yes. Because she was bad at computers, even though she was, in fact, someone who made their living off of typing on a computer. Come on, get it together. And then Aiden goes and buys her the brand new super cute imac laptop that looks like a cute purse, as he calls it. And she is such a jerk about it.
- [46:27]
B
That's true. That was actually a very embarrassing episode because I would have taken that thing.
- [46:33]
A
Oh, me too. And I would have married Aiden. I would have been like, aiden, you are so Sexy. Let's just do this. And you got me this cute computer, Carrie. One more reason that I just. I know she doesn't age well for me, so. Yeah, you could find just about anything on ebay while using your desktop computer at home. Not your laptop. Probably not a smartphone. No, like, definitely not a smartphone. Because smartphones were just a glimmer in our eyes, right. That someday there could be a computer on your phone that would let you buy stuff secondhand online, even while you're, like, sitting in a bathroom. Imagine that. Gosh. Imagine just going back 100 years and telling. I know. Um, anyway, this, like, ability to buy anything you wanted secondhand really extended beyond clothing, too. You could get records, comic books, shoes, jewelry, those rainbow bright sheets that reminded you of your childhood. Oh, I don't know. A hello Kitty contact lens case that was only for sale in Japan. After your package arrived, you could go brag about it on your LiveJournal or your MySpace. Social media is still not great then.
- [47:40]
B
Do you remember how much that hello Kitty contact lens case ended up costing you with, like, shipping?
- [47:47]
A
Oh, I think it was so much. Guys, it's like $25 or something for a contact lens case. Listen, for those of you who don't wear contacts, if you buy a bottle contact solution, it comes with a case. But this one, to be fair, was in a cute, like, compact with a little mirror and a little travel vial for solutions. So I could carry it in my purse because, you know, like, to be really honest, this time period in my life, I wasn't coming home every night, you know, to my house. So I was prepared. Right. Anyway, yeah, just like, you could get anything you wanted. And so what happened is that high profile vintage sellers developed followings of devoted customers on ebay who would watch every auction they launched. I had my own personal favorites. Like, you could save them and then you would get, you know, like. Well, you wouldn't get a notification on your phone because phones didn't do that then. But you might get an email telling. Telling you that there were new items from your favorite shop. Right? And so this is like the very early stage of email marketing where people opened emails because they didn't get that many. And so, you know, you'd go to ebay and be like, oh, what do they have this week? And I, I had my own personal favorites. I'm sad to say I blanked on almost all of them as I was writing this, but there was one called Sisters of the Black Moon who I really loved as I got into my like been through the desert on a horse with no name phase. They really specialized in witchy 70s vintage a la Stevie Nicks. I followed them forever even after they move off. Moved off of ebay and opened their own website which I was sad to find today. Shuttered in 2021. I tried so hard, like smoke was practically coming out of my ears to remember names of the other stores I followed on ebay and the aughts, but I couldn't think of any of them. So if any of you have one in mind, send them our way so we can. I can probably look them up on the way back machine or something and we can see what they were, what they had for sale. One successful seller on ebay was Sophia Amoroso, AKA I know, AKA the woman that Dustin mildly bullied on. Not even on Instagram by just putting fart clouds in her comments.
- [50:03]
B
It's a soft bully.
- [50:05]
A
Soft bully. Anyway, Sofia Amoroso is the founder of Nasty Gal. Now I think we have talk talked about Nasty Gal quite enough here at the department, but there's always another nugget that comes up. Should we, should we take a moment to share any other random memories or facts of the time we worked there? So far we've covered flea infestations, huge barrels of pretzels, terrible nightmare meetings in the boardroom, aptly named Mean Girls, the popcorn machine that they rolled out on bad days.
- [50:35]
B
The bad, you'd smell it come and you'd be like, oh shit, something happens.
- [50:39]
A
Fuggery. Which we still don't know what it is. I think we've touched on how every week there was at least one going away party with champagne and like macarons because people quit like every day at that job. Did we talk about the planner who kept falling asleep in meetings? I think we did.
- [50:57]
B
I think he had a drug addiction. Remember he like went away for a month and then came back and he.
- [51:03]
A
Was kind of like different, a totally new guy and like kind of cute.
- [51:08]
B
I actually didn't even recognize him. And he was my planner and then.
- [51:12]
A
But then like one day later he was escorted out of the building. So I don't know what was going on there. That only at Nasty. I don't think they checked references there because I had a buyer on my team who allegedly had been a buyer at Revolve and she didn't even know what IMU meant. So I don't know about that one. I. I was thinking today of this party we went to at Matthew's house. Our friend Matthew, one of the founders of Boy Scents and boy smells. Boy smells. Thank you. Boy scents. Those are gross. And it was the first time I'd ever. And firsthand only time I've ever smoked weed from a bong. And I was so high, so dangerous.
- [51:57]
B
And it was one of the worst experiences I ever had. And I would never go back because I actually thought that there were UFOs following.
- [52:06]
A
That's pretty rough. What happened to me is I almost got into a threesome with the one guy who was like.
- [52:13]
B
With the mustache.
- [52:14]
A
Yeah. He was like an administrative assistant, but also like Sophia's ex boyfriend and his girlfriend was there and they were both sitting on different sides of me, like, caressing my leg. And then like, you and Sherry were like, okay, let's get out of here. Dragged me out, thank God. Fun party though. But yeah. You have any other fun facts? I remember we get fruit sometimes at.
- [52:38]
B
Work in that break room. Like the. It's not even the break room. It was like the. Where we would eat lunch sullenly with a lot of like, skinny ladies eating their own, like, little salads or whatever. There was that painting that talked about how girl boss. It was like the aspirational quote.
- [52:57]
A
It was like, do you remember what it said? It was like, our mission is to help young women leave their. Live their best lives or something like that. And I was like, I am not living my best life.
- [53:07]
B
Bullshit. We would. We would sit and stare at it and be like, this is just not what's happening here.
- [53:14]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's hard to believe that all of those great memories began as a store on ebay. Right. Sophia started Nasty Gal on ebay, moving it to its own website in 2008.
- [53:30]
B
We did have to read her book. I remember having to read her book before I started.
- [53:35]
A
Can I just say, it was part.
- [53:37]
B
Of the onboarding process. So you had to go buy the book and then read it?
- [53:41]
A
You know, not a great book. Like, it's entertaining and I see why they made a television series on it.
- [53:51]
B
I think you need to write a review on Amazon.
- [53:53]
A
Not a great book, period. Yeah, we had to read it. You got a copy at orientation. I somehow ended up with two copies of it. I sat sent one to Dylan and Dylan was like, I'm not reading this garbage. Which made me really proud. It's kind of a wild success story when you think about it, that Sophia would be selling stuff on ebay. And I'm sure there's a lot of mythology in girlbox.
- [54:14]
B
I think that there's like some dot, dot, dots. There's like A yada, yada, yada. And then suddenly I have a million trillion dollars. You're like, right?
- [54:21]
A
And then. And I'm writing. Yeah, yeah. I mean there was definitely things in between, but like to imagine someone like selling on ebay and then selling suddenly like there's this office in downtown LA where they roll out a popcorn machine on bad days and people have are giving themselves stomach ulcers and wasting so much paper on the color printer. It would piss me off. Every time I went to the printer. There'd be just mountains of abandoned sheets everywhere. People were just printing paper like I was going out of style. People were disappearing for weeks after they went to Coachella. Planners were falling asleep on the toilet. To think that you could start the store on ebay and get there and we'd be talk it now and there'd be some series on Netflix which by the way, Kim, listen, you are not going to believe this, but people suggest, periodically suggest that series to me and I'm like, do you know who I am?
- [55:14]
B
Do you know my life suggested they're.
- [55:16]
A
Like, hey, you should watch that Girl Boss series on Netflix. I'm like, no, unless you're going to pay for me to get like four hours of therapy afterwards.
- [55:24]
B
Wasn't that like the first series that was officially canceled after the first season?
- [55:30]
A
We were delayed. I think we drank over that. Like, we were like, this is a party. I mean, especially based on a book called not really that Great on on Amazon by me anyway, you know, I think it would be very challenging for someone now in 2023 to move from Depop or Poshmark to their own company with like mega VC money backing up.
- [55:57]
B
Yeah, she really hit with like, like a really specialized and exciting way that nobody was actually doing.
- [56:06]
A
Totally. And it was like the right time for that. It wouldn't happen now. And these days the secondhand platforms really anonymize the sellers and they make it very challenging for them to gain a following. On top of that, it's like really hard to raise money these days for your business. And if you're a woman, woman, multiply that difficulty by like 100. It's really, really hard. And in fact, we can thank the bankruptcy of Nasty Gal for making fundraising so much more difficult, especially for women. Like I, the job I was working at after Nasty Gal, we were trying to go out for another round of funding. And that week Nasty Gal declared bankruptcy and everybody was like, nevermind, we're not giving you any money. It was like that instantaneous. Another online secondhand seller that parlayed themselves into a huge brand. Is Susan Koger of Modcloth another place that I have worked. She is one of the loveliest people I've ever met. I don't really have any bad stories to say about Modcloth. Great snacks, no popcorn machine, but they would have gotten one if we wanted. Awesome benefits, no fleas, never smoked a bong there. They would get us a really nice catered lunch at least once a month, and we would all just sit together and talk about our feelings. They even had a nap. And we worked really hard, but it was a nice place to work. I don't know how I ended up at Nasty Gal after that. Actually, now that we're talking about it. Is that my, like, sliding doors moment? I don't know.
- [57:37]
B
I think so, yeah.
- [57:39]
A
Anyway, that's what it sounds like.
- [57:40]
B
I wonder what would happen if you'd stayed at Modcloth.
- [57:43]
A
Well, I wouldn't be there now because that's the thing. Like, it's been through a lot of changes. Susan herself is a really lovely person. Like, one of the loveliest people I've met in my career. And we have multiple times had really intense, deep conversations about religion, which you don't often get to have on the clock. Susan skipped that ebay route, and instead she started selling vintage clothing on her own website in college. It was built by her then boyfriend and future husband, Eric Koger, who was CEO of ModCloth when I was there. In its first year, ModCloth grossed $18,000 in revenue. That was 2005, and it received its first round of seed funding in 2008. In 2009, the company had $15 million in revenue. That is quite a leap over four years. And by 2014, it was $150 million. Down the road, ModCloth was sold to Jet.com aka Walmart. And it has changed hands a few times since then. And Susan and Eric are no longer part of the company. Haven't been a part of it since the sale to Jet.com but while ModCloth and Nasty Gal both began by selling vintage clothing, they both shifted. Shifted into selling new clothing. The aesthetic all along was very different, but they both came up at the same time. And it was just that perfect time where people were like, had recovered, I think, from the first Internet bubble and were like, we're ready to invest because now we realize e commerce is the way forward.
- [59:13]
B
DTC.
- [59:14]
A
Exactly. But like, in the late 90s, people were like, we don't exactly know what we're investing in when we invest invest in Internet, but we you know, we, we are. And there was no path forward for like, how does the Internet make money? And then it was like, oh shit, by selling stuff, you know, and that like, really redefined who would invest and what they would invest in. So both of these people, both Sophia and Susan, really just like were in the exact right moment. That doesn't mean to downplay like their hard work or their eye for product or curation or anything. Like, they were both very talented at that. Probably still are, but just that like it also the right time for that. Many other sellers may not have parlayed their ebay business into a million dollar empire, but they did open brick and mortar stores or start their own brands. And we've seen those brands continue to go even now. So where are we by, oh, I don't know, August of 2008? Well, eBay is allowing people to build their own small businesses selling secondhand items peer to peer online. This is actually great because the economy sucks and lots of people are underemployed or at least underpaid. Some are even opening their own businesses, helping other people list and sell stuff on ebay. That's how much ebay is engaging with people and kind of building small business wealth.
- [60:40]
B
I mean, I feel like it was also like, it was like what helped supply some income prior to like Uber and Lyft and all those other service based platforms. Like this was the kind of like, okay, well I don't have a, I don't have a position right now, or I'm not making enough money. This is a way I can actually get a little bit of extra money.
- [60:59]
A
And this was kind of like a wild, wild west time where you might not have to pay any taxes on your income from ebay. Like depending on what the money flow was and where it was coming from, you didn't have to do anything with it. You could keep it all that has since changed, obviously, but back then.
- [61:14]
B
Does Trump know about this?
- [61:17]
A
Probably not. Do you think Donald Trump has ever bought anything off of ebay and if so, what?
- [61:22]
B
Yeah, well, maybe one of his assistants said like he wanted a really niche product from like the Ukraine or something and that no one could find it. Except they could find it on ebay. It's super possible. Maybe he got a tiger. You know, he's got tigers and things.
- [61:37]
A
I mean, he says he's an expert in cyber, so maybe.
- [61:43]
B
Is that like a quote he said?
- [61:45]
A
Yeah, he said something about cyber. Yeah, of course, in cyber, that's how you know someone's like good at the Internet. So more and more people were also shopping at these buy sell trade stores and selling their stuff there, too, to save money, make a little bit of extra cash. And thrift stores are actually, by mid-2008, doing a robust business because they're selling to people who are struggling financially because the economy sucks, and to people who were also probably barely getting by, who are flipping secondhand stuff on ebay. And then the financial crisis of 2008 sweeping swoops in and it kind of ruins the fun. I mean, was it fun before then? I don't know. I remember it being fun, but like, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. From a September 2008 New York Times article called thrift shops thriving but running low on stock. While the nation's best known retail chains are pulling out all the stops to lure shoppers and bolster their abysmal sales, their customers are defecting to an unlikely rival, the local thrift shop. I feel like the New York Times has to say this every decade. The must have item for fall, it turns out, is someone else's cast off. This may sound like a boon for thrift stores, and in some ways it is. Yet the same economic woes that are sending buyers their way are causing donors to hand over fewer items so that many stores are running low on inventory. The Salvation army, which operates 13 thrift shops in the United States, said that the tough economy had led consumers to hold onto their old clothes longer and to use websites. By the way they capitalized website in this article everyone to use websites like ebay and craigslist to make money from unwanted items, suppressing the usual flow of donations. Figures from the Salvation army show that sales have spiked 5 to 15% at stores around the country in recent recent months, compared with the same period a year earlier. Yet donations are down 10 to 25%. And it was the same thing happening at the Goodwill, where sales were up 6% with donations being down 5 to 10%. So suddenly there really isn't that much at the thrift store. Stores were also citing a rise in gas prices, which we already talked about, and these were especially bad when you had to get diesel for trucks. That was another factor impacting donation volume because at that point, stores did pickups of donations from people's houses, and they had to cut back on that in order to keep their fuel and transport budget in check. This also cut the move of inventory from stores with too much to stores with less to sell. And even now, a lot of the modern thrift model consists of logistics Moving stuff from point A to B to C and sometimes even D. So, as we've seen in previous eras, lower supply of donation motivates thrift stores to be more aggressive about getting getting more donations. They are businesses, after all. Something that has become very apparent during my research of this series is that thrift stores sort of rely on over consumption for their business model, not their customers over consuming per se, although they probably are glad when that happens, but rather their donors over consuming over shopping. There is a direct correlation between shopping and donation. If donors are constantly buying new stuff and upgrading their furniture, home goods, electronics, all that stuff sooner than necessary, then the thrift store benefits from a steady flow of newer, constantly increasing quality inventory. And the relief of donation makes buying new stuff easier than ever because you don't have to deal with the burden of the old stuff. As, for example, a lifelong regular thrifter, I can see the impact of what I call the home goods industrial complex, named for iconic retailer Home Goods. As thrift stores have seemed to have more and more throw pillows and other, like, home tchotchkes that are made, bought, and donated within the past few years, it's easier than ever to buy new decor stuff constantly, among many other things. But here we are, it's 2008, and the economy is taking a turn in a bad way. So customers are like, hitting the brakes with the shopping, right? So they're no longer, like, buying new stuff and donating stuff in the same way. The thrift stores are freaking out about this, so they take to the airwaves to run commercials detailing the impact of donations on the community. They offer discount coupons if you come in and just donate. The big thrift chains did, like a media blitz of interviews just extolling the virtues of donating to their chain over others. Like, they were like, cutthroat. Like, why would you give yourself to Goodwill when you could give to Salvation Army? Let me tell you what we do. Like that kind of stuff Again from the New York Times, the writer writes, in response to the slowdown in donations and the growing need for social services, the Salvation army is introduced, introducing the sort of national advertising and marketing campaign usually ordered up by department stores and specialty retailers. We're going to be more aggressive about marketing. George Hood, who was national community relations and development secretary for the Salvation army, he told the paper, he said, instead of operating like a charity, we know now that we have to operate like a real retailer. And so in general, this is when we start to see thrift stores really leaning into the, like Charitable component of their business, even if it's not really that much. Putting up posters about their give back to local organizations, telling customers that they were doing a good deed just by shopping there. And even beginning to extol the environmental impact of shopping secondhand. So thrift stores are running low on stuff. People are feeling broke. They aren't buying, they aren't donating. It's a tough time. But we also can't talk about the post recession world without talking about fast fashion.
- [67:55]
B
Your favorite.
- [67:56]
A
My favorite.
- [67:57]
B
That's Amanda's favorite thing in the world. But it was fast fashion and glamping.
- [68:01]
A
Glam. Oh, God, glamping. No. Yeah, exactly. Right? My two favorites. Along with Fugzury, of course. Both. Both of these were like, Fast fashion was really born out of the 2008 financial crisis. And it is something that all of us lived through. It existed before them, but in a much smaller way. There was a very clear divide, which I'm sure you remember, too. That was like, there are cheap stores and then there are other stores. Right? And the cheap stores were just less appealing. But then the recession comes, and now it's like, oh, Whoa, suddenly Forever 21 is looking a lot more appealing. Right?
- [68:39]
B
And. And, oh, they got some cuter.
- [68:41]
A
They did. They did for sure.
- [68:42]
B
Or it was like H and M. I remember when H and M came to New York and we were all like, that's so good. How do we compete? How do we compete with the prices? And back then, the quality was awesome. I remember having multiple pieces that I could have, like, still been wearing today if I wasn't just so. If I didn't lose things so quickly, I guess.
- [69:04]
A
Right. Which we all did. I agree. There are pieces that I remember specifically from H and M that I wish I had now, and I don't remember know where they are. Which says a lot about what our lives have been like in this century for sure. So at this point, 2008, I was working and buying at Urban Outfitters. Where were you working, Kim?
- [69:21]
B
I was at Oak. I was a buyer. I was the. Yeah, the head buyer at Oak.
- [69:25]
A
So I was broke working at Urban Outfitters in the buying department. They did not pay us well, and the company put a wage and promotion freeze in place, which made it even worse. So I was also selling things on ebay when I had the time because it was just like, I think you guys don't pay me and enough to live, you know, I mean, actually, what's.
- [69:44]
B
Really funny then what falls right into this trend is when I was At Oak, you know, which we bought like we were selling, you know, acne and Alexander Wang and Subi, you know, some of like the coolest brands at the time. But it was just really, really tough. It was just tough time. And so we were trying to appeal to a different demographic. So we actually went to la. We flew to LA and so sourced vintage to sell in the store.
- [70:12]
A
Interesting. So smart.
- [70:14]
B
And we also kept building up our own in house private label that was sitting next to, you know, Rick Owens, but at a absolute fraction of the cost. So you can come in, you can still get the look. So yeah, we, we basically had to leverage, you know, these more affordable options. We also launched a brand called aok, which was like the diffusion label where we would go to Los Angeles and we would go to the downtown market, you know, the cheap market. You're familiar with that?
- [70:43]
A
Yeah, the San Pedro apparel market. Yep, exactly.
- [70:45]
B
And we would buy, we would buy product and we would sell it. We'd sell it. And we actually did really well with it because the margin was so, so high. So we were able to really kind of stabilize during that, that, that time frame by putting in, thrifting and putting in, you know, just fast fashion, essentially.
- [71:02]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, going back to Nasty Gal and ModCloth, like this is, is a really, this is really early in both of those businesses and yet they're both seeing a lot of growth and it's because they were sourcing from the same places. Like the margin was really high and the price was accessible to customers. But yeah, it was 100% fast fashion. I will tell you, there was no retailer that got out of the recession unscathed and unchanged. Almost immediately, retailers found themselves discounting inventory as deeply as possible. Like the fall winter of 2008, just like every, everything was on rock bottom sale. And many were able to clear out that inventory with the hope that like this was a temporary blip and things would go back. But when spring rolled around, people still weren't ready to go back to paying full price. So everything had to be sold on sale again. Retailers made this work by cutting back their operating costs. Once again, they thought this might be kind of a temporary blip. They laid off workers, they cut payroll expenditures by working with leaner staff everywhere. This was the part of my career where suddenly it seemed like if someone left, they didn't replace them anymore and Everybody was doing 1.5 jobs instead of 1. And that would get more egregious as my career progressed. Even places like the actual, like retail stores Were cutting back on payroll. And so you. This is the beginning of, like, where we are now. Where you go to a store and there's, like, no one working there, and everything's chaotic. It kind of starts in 2000, 2008. Also, many companies began to rely on temp and contract workers in a bigger way for years and years on end. Gosh. One of my friends worked at MTV for, like, six years on a temp contract. Like, that's not a temporary job for six years.
- [72:51]
B
It is not a temporary job.
- [72:52]
A
I know, right? But many retailers still thought that this discounting would be temporary. But by late 2009, no one was doing better financially, and they were still unwilling to pay full price. Meanwhile, retailers like Forever 21 and H& M, which are like the original fast fashion retailers, were blowing up by selling clothes at prices that didn't even make sense, honestly, because they were so low. And my guess is that they were taking a lower margin and just, you know, planning on volume. Right, right. Which is a. Is a valid way to make money.
- [73:29]
B
I feel like that's kind of what the all you can eat sushi restaurant does out here. I was like, how do they get these prices so low? I'm like, they must be. They must be relying on volume.
- [73:42]
A
Yeah, I bet. I bet.
- [73:44]
B
And the place was packed. Next time you come, Amanda, I'm taking.
- [73:47]
A
We're definitely going to be so good. I was very jealous. So the thing about these fast fashion retailers is that in many cases, but not always, the quality was significantly lower than other retails. But once again, I have had H and M& forever 21 clothes from that era that stood up for a really long time. And even if the quality was lower, the fit wasn't as great. Customers did not care. They didn't want to buy less just because they had less money. They wanted the same amount of new clothes in their lives, maybe even more. And quality just took a backseat. So retailers saw how this was playing out, and it put them in a real pickle. Surely the recession would pass someday. Right? And if they copied the Forever 21 model of literally the lowest prices, how would they dig their way out of that when the recession ended? And wouldn't it be brand damaging to do that? They could never come back. You know, they could never raise the prices back up. That's just not how it works. So here's how they got around it. They kept the prices on their tags the same, but they put everything on sale or promo really fast. They plan to basically almost never sell anything at Full price or other retailers did what Kim did at Oak and they really shifted their assortment to make room for this high margin product. The tagged price on a lot of the stuff was more of a suggestion than a reality. And everything was engineered to sell on sale and still be profitable. To make that work, fabrics had to be cheaper, much more polyester. People think of the 70s as the golden age of polyester, but that, that's actually this. This past like 15 years have been the golden era, the golden age of polyester. And the garments had to cost far less to make. So they stopped aligning things, taking out pockets. If any of you have ever listened to Clothes Horse, you know exactly what I'm talking about. We're still living with the repercussions of that shift right now. But when we talk about secondhand clothing and the trend of that time, when brand new clothes become so cheap, cheap interest in secondhand clothing wanes for many. Right? Because why, why go to the extra effort of looking for it secondhand when you could just go buy something comparable? At least you know, it would be the same silhouette at Forever 21 for the same price or lower with minimal effort. So secondhand clothing really then was only like a place and a thing for people who loved vintage or were really looking for higher quality brands. And that market was as strong as ever. But we didn't have everyone ever buying secondhand. And to be fair, the biggest fashion icons of the aughts did not wear secondhand or vintage clothing. They were clad head to toe in the hottest brands of the moment. And Kim, I shared some photos with you and they are just horrifying. We will share these on Instagram. The Lauren Conrad one is the one that, that just really nauseates me. She's wearing these weird like Capri jeans and just, it's. Yeah.
- [76:49]
B
And that necklace.
- [76:51]
A
Yeah.
- [76:52]
B
And those round toed little heels.
- [76:57]
A
This was a bad time. This was a really bad time. Even like, you know, I was looking at these photos and I was like, well surely Avril Lavigne wore some secondhand adventures because she's like punk, right? Nope, nope.
- [77:09]
B
Oh no. That's like cookie cutter punk.
- [77:12]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's where it became like a thing, right? So, yeah, I mean the biggest, the people who were getting the most coverage in the burgeoning gossip mag trade, they, they weren't wearing secondhand clothes at all. Right. They were buying brand new branded stuff, having it gifted to them. They're probably going to Kitson. You know, it's no wonder that with this continued obsession with Brands that the off price stores continued to flourish during, during this time, offering a low price alternative to shopping secondhand for your hideous low rise jeans or your shirts that were some, for some reason just really long in an unflattering way or they.
- [77:51]
B
Had the weird like bubble bottom.
- [77:52]
A
Oh, that's the worst.
- [77:54]
B
Yeah, that was a big, that was a big deal back then.
- [77:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, definitely. TJ Maxx, Marshalls and Nordstrom Rack began to invade shopping centers all over the country. The mainstream culture just didn't have a lot of use for secondhand shopping.
- [78:09]
B
That is fascinating. Fascinating. I didn't even think about it that way. Where it was fast fashion and then off price would have really upended the industry for secondhand shopping.
- [78:18]
A
Now what was interesting makes sense though, of course, is that you would see lots of articles in this decade and then the next decade after that about how like off price was on fire, just growing and growing and growing and more and more people were shopping there. Even millennials, you know, like there'd be lots of millennials that love TJ Maxx here's why kind of articles. But no one ever said millennials love fast fashion. Here's why no one used that term at all. It was like verboten. Right. But that was what was happening alongside this. And if anything, in addition to this love of brands helping these off price retailers grow, they, the off price retailers probably also felt the pressure to bring in more high margin fast fashion to offset the lower margin of the branded stuff. Right? So they were buying from the same suppliers as like Forever 21 and Nasty Gal and Modcloth. Because this is the thing, in this period, everyone's buying their stuff from the same place now over time. Forever 20. Yeah, Forever 21 took most of their production overseas. Like, I mean all those clothes were being made overseas anyway, but they went more factory direct. But at this, this time, they were buying from the same San Pedro Apparel Mart vendors that we were buying from at Modcloth and Nasty Gal and everyone else was buying from. And so those.
- [79:39]
B
That was like, yeah, that was the dirtiest secret in town for retailers was this like San Pedro, they called it downtown at a lot of places.
- [79:47]
A
Yeah, yeah. And everyone was buying there. Like everyone.
- [79:51]
B
Uh huh.
- [79:52]
A
Over time. I actually remember like when we were at Nasty Gal, so would that have been like what, 2000, 14, 15, 16. Like that period. Those, all of those vendors who worked out of the San Pedro Apparel Mart were actually going through a really tough time because that was when Forever 21 was like, psych, now we're going Factory Direct. And that was like a big hit to their business. Oh, wow.
- [80:18]
B
It's like, it was like their biggest client just left them.
- [80:22]
A
Totally, totally. So that's like what's happening, you know, if you have more questions about like what we mean by mainstream culture, you should definitely, definitely go listen to our series about the aughts because we break down how at that point for that decade there were two cultures, like running in parallel.
- [80:41]
B
Yeah.
- [80:42]
A
And really dictating a lot of what we saw, like culturally, socially, creatively and style wise for that time period. Now, the hipsters loved vintage, but. But they often tended to mix real vintage with new fake vintage knockoffs. Remember we talked about him in the 90s retailers. Like, huh, what if we just start making fake old clothes? Right? Well, fake old clothes are going strong in this new century. Okay. Urban Outfitters alone made so much money during this era, especially on faux vintage tees that were I ironic, I have folded personally myself. Thousands upon thousands of them.
- [81:26]
B
I still remember the displays, particularly in the men's department. I would usually go to the men's department to shop their teas.
- [81:32]
A
Oh, all the hits. Getting lucky in Kentucky. Oh, so Ohio. Everybody loves an Irish girl. I could do this all day, everyone. Because there were so many. And this was the time period, like I mentioned a while ago that it was like, oh, you can just like buy a tea and you can like customize it. Right. So sometimes when I would be dressing mannequins, I'll be like cutting the necklines out and turning them into muscle shirts and stuff like that. And people would be like, can I just buy the one off the mannequin? Like this was like money, money, money on fake vintage tees. But also American Apparel was basically a redo of the 70s and 80s, just with even more misogyny added, which probably didn't seem possible at the time. But you know, they really pulled it off. They made it even more bad for women than the original 70s and 80s had been.
- [82:21]
B
So, and, and more expensive. I do remember going into American Apparel when they opened it, I was like, this is actually more expensive than I thought it was going to be.
- [82:29]
A
I think that's a really good call out. Like it was running counter to fast fashion where it was expensive. They rarely had sales, like ever. And like the quality really wasn't there. Like it would be disappointing when you would buy something from there and it would start to rip a few days later because you were like, oh my God, this bodysuit cost me $88 or something.
- [82:49]
B
Something, you know, that's why brand is so important.
- [82:52]
A
So important. So even the fastest fast fashion brands were looking to vintage for inspiration. They were seeing how it was working for Urban Outfitters and American Apparel and so many other retailers from the 90s. Even so, it wouldn't be uncommon to find something that looked like it was straight out of the 60s. At Forever 21 or Old Navy stores like American Eagle and Aberrant. Abercrombie sold a sort of like broken decon, broken in, deconstructed version of Americana clothing. All designed to look secondhand and well worn. And people loved this faux secondhand look. In fact, in 2006, Forever 21 launched its own retail concept called Heritage 1981 so vintage that was meant to take on Urban Outfitters, American Eagle, Abercrombie and free people all in in one store. It was only around for a few years, but I found a write up for when it launched in the Los Angeles Business Journal. They said Heritage Clothing, priced between 25 and $50 is made of natural fibers, in contrast to Forever 21's clothes, which are usually priced in the $15 range. Heritage clothes are classically inspired woven pieces with colorful prints and plaids, knits and carefully faded denim. Notably abstinent are career clothes and clubbing D. Oh, the clubbing duds. That's a hard one to say too. It's no Beanie Baby bubble burst, but it's getting there. The atmosphere of Heritage stores will also contrast with the Forever 21 stores with weathered doors, wood framed windows, vintage artwork. Yeah. And hardwood floors. Forever 21 stores have standard white walls and white floors. And pop music is always humming. So everyone is like, let's make fake vintage. Yeah. And you know what? We bought it. We bought it, guys.
- [84:52]
B
I wonder when Duberal RL came in, because that was like they did that. Yeah, but it cost like 10 to 20 times more.
- [85:02]
A
Yes, I think it was around this time.
- [85:04]
B
I think it was around this time because this was in the ye Olde time period where like ye olde stuff was like really cool. But Ye Olde could be new.
- [85:13]
A
It's true. Just like Heritage 1981, which was cashing in on Ye Olde, but at the mall. So, you know, by the time we end the aughts, secondhand shopping isn't really anyone's source of shopping anymore, or sole source at least, because there are so many options. No matter what your priorities were. If you really cared about low prices, you could hit up just about any retailer, get something on a smoking hot deal, or you could go to an off price store. If vintage aesthetic was your thing, once again, you could go on ebay and shop secondhand or go to a thrift store or a vintage store. But you could also just hit up a wide variety of retailers at a wide variety of price points and get something that at least to you might be similar for your purposes. We weren't at this point talking about the environmental impact of all those new clothes yet. So consumers were primarily motivated by price, esthetic and convenience. And even ebay wasn't as convenient as buying a fake vintage item from the mall.
- [86:20]
B
You know, there's something I wanted to add that it's this, this occurred kind of earlier in the aughts, but do you remember that I interned with the brand Libertine?
- [86:31]
A
Yes.
- [86:32]
B
It's actually funny because Miranda Bennett, who owned the sustainable line, sustainability line, Miranda Bennett Bennett studios here in Austin, Texas. Yes. Which actually just closed their doors, what, this week? Yeah, yeah, I. What a loss. I know. What a loss. You know, the cost of being really sustainable. It's really hard. It's so sustainable. But anyway, she actually also was an intern at Libertine right around the same time that I was. And so Libertine was this. It was a high end brand. It was run by two people and all the product was sourced from like the thrift stores in New York. Yeah. So you'd go to what's it called? Not St. Vinny's what's the other one that you talked about? The big ones? Let's see.
- [87:30]
A
Salvation Army.
- [87:32]
B
Yes, Salvation Army. Well, no Salvation army, but there's another one. Anyway, whatever, it doesn't matter. We would, to these, these thrift stores and you would basically go and buy. They'd be like, okay, you have to get long sleeve button down shirts, get blazers, we need some trench coats. Also we take them back and we kind of like do some like little frills, sewing, cutting, disintegrating. And then you'd screen print their, their things on them. They had these big eyes or flowers or lots of skulls. This was the time of skulls. And then we'd sell them to Barney's and they were all one offs of these items and they would sell for thousands of dollars. But the interns usually did like most of the work on the sewing and pressing and sourcing of all of the product.
- [88:20]
A
You know, that's so funny because you talking about that unlocked so many memories for me of like this, like we were definitely doing this in a big way at Urban Outfitters too. And we, I mean, I'm sure this is still the case. But Urban Outfitters had a production facility in Philadelphia for their line Urban Renewal, which was basically that kind of stuff, right? So they'd buy a whole palette of button ups from, you know, a rag house in la, probably multiple palettes. They bring them up there and they turn them into other things. They would do the same thing with all kinds of other vintage secondhand clothes and dead stock fabrics. And you know, we even did this at Nasty Gal. We had that after party line, remember? It was the same kind of thing. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was like everybody was getting in on this. So retailers were doing this like more and more of them. And at least, you know, you can, you can admit that it's kind of cool that they were using pre existing materials and secondhand stuff. But then you'd go to like a Heritage 1981 or someplace like that. You might even go to a TJ Maxx and see this. You would see a mass market reproduction of that, that item. Yes, I definitely remember seeing off brand, like not upcycled versions of the libertine stuff, for example, you know, so like Urban Outfitters was basically kind of copying libertine and other designers who were doing this stuff. And then at least they were doing it with secondhand materials. And then like the even faster fashion retailers would be like, we're just gonna straight up copy that thing, but we're gonna make a thousand of the same thing or 10,000 of the same thing. And so you would see the weird fake upcycled button up dress with a skull on on it, like at the mall. And it's just like here we see the knockoff cycle getting even faster and faster. And I think people at this point, like I said, weren't thinking about, oh, upcycling or secondhand is a good thing for the environment. Like some people would talk about it, but that wasn't the point of it, Right? It was cool is what the point of it was. And for a lot of these brands and retailers, like you said, it was a way to sustain their business, you know, with everything else being stacked against them without just like cutting out who they really were, losing like their brand integrity. And they would do this stuff and then like, yeah, Forever 21 would be like, I don't know, let's just copy that one thing. Like it just like got watered down and watered down and watered down until it was like it no longer meant anything.
- [90:48]
B
You know, it's funny, I just sent you, I just googled libertine because I haven't Looked at them in forever. They have reissued their product to, like, Frogdorf.
- [90:59]
A
Cute. Wow.
- [91:00]
B
But it's clearly not. It's not the same thing. It's not sourced from vintage.
- [91:04]
A
This is actual product that's brand new. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely like, we had the pants made and then they were screen printed or the fabric was screen printed and then the pants were made. It's interesting. I guess they probably just don't have the same supply. I mean, it is also hard to scale it for E commerce, which is something that I have definitely learned at various jobs that if. If you only have one of each thing, it's really expensive to run a business that way because you have to. The customers don't have a positive E commerce experience unless you list each one separately. And that also doesn't convert. And we could talk to you about this all day because, like. But it would be very boring business stuff that you might not want to hear. Yes, but, yeah, I mean, I. That. That doesn't surprise me that that's how it's going now, you know? And also it probably doesn't surprise any of you to hear that Heritage 1981 isn't around anymore. Oh, I know. Such a loss for the community. Anyway, that's all I have for this week. Next week we're going to come in, we're going to go hard on the 2010s to now. We're going to see technology continue to change how we shop, and especially how we shop second. Secondhand. We're gonna see a total shift in vintage trend, and I'm sure there'll be many other surprises along the way.
- [92:28]
B
What an informative episode. Thank you so much, Amanda. I know this is taking you.
- [92:32]
A
I know. I feel like I needed a good.
- [92:34]
B
Amount of time to do.
- [92:36]
A
I've been going to this place periodically to get B12 shots, which I had one yesterday, and I actually feel, like, amazing today for the first time in, like a month. But. But they also do IVs. And last Sunday I was like, this is one of those moments where I could see myself getting an IV. $150 IV. Yes.
- [92:57]
B
I've been with you when you've got an IV.
- [92:59]
A
Yeah, well, I told Dustin. I was like, listen, that time I got food poisoning and Kim took me to that urgent care emergency room in Hollywood and they gave me that IV. I think it saved my life. IVs are amazing, even though they suck.
- [93:12]
B
Yeah. We went to Trader Joe's and you were alive, but then you slowly disintegrated again.
- [93:17]
A
And then remember, remember, I don't want to like cast any aspersions on anyone, but remember you were like taking care of me, which meant like just sitting quietly and working and reading while I was sleeping. And I wanted you to stay, but Dustin wanted to take over. And then Dustin shows up. This is like, we had only been dating for a few weeks and he gets into bed with me and eats a burrito. Oh, I had been barfing and like, I mean, I had like really bad food poisoning. And he just kept talking to me and I was texting you, like, I wish you were still here.
- [93:52]
B
I'm like, do you mean to come.
- [93:54]
A
Come and throw him out? And the burrito, he was like, literally.
- [93:59]
B
And he was like drinking whiskey too, right?
- [94:01]
A
Yeah, I was gonna say he was in there.
- [94:02]
B
It's like a whole handle of whiskey.
- [94:04]
A
Eating a burrito and drinking shitty whiskey, like next to me in my full size bed and talking non stop so much. And I was like, I'm really, I. I remember being like, I'm really sick, like, hoping that would be enough, like, shut things down. May the burrito into another room. Yeah. Anyway, it all worked out, everyone, we're still together. And he never ate a burrito again. No, that's not true either. Or drank shitty whiskey. Both have happened. Okay, well, that's all I have for this week. We'll be back next week.
- [94:40]
B
Thank you.
- [94:40]
A
Bye, everyone.
- [94:41]
B
Bye. Bye. It.