← Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty
FROM THE DEPARTMENT: Secondhand News (the recurring and always controversial trend of secondhand fashion), Part 2: The 80s and 90s
01:54:43
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- [00:00]
Amanda
Hi, I'm Amanda.
- [00:01]
Kim
And I'm Kim.
- [00:03]
Amanda
And this is the department, a podcast about trends and how they define the world around us. Well, welcome to episode 77 here at the department. I'm sure that's someone's lucky number. Is it yours? Kim's? I don't know. Anyway, this week we will be continuing our conversation about the recurring, or perhaps timeless trend of shopping secondhand. When we began this journey into the past just a few weeks ago, I thought we could do it in two episodes, but wow, turns out I was really, really wrong. So this is actually turning into a three episode miniseries.
- [01:10]
Kim
Bow, bow, bow. I mean, I think that that's probably a good move, especially since, you know, our viewership tends to be obsessive, highly dedicated to secondhand fashion. And I think that all your findings are really fascinating and we've gotten really great feedback that they also agree. So just keep going. Amanda, I feel like we could pull out some more strings of this too.
- [01:40]
Amanda
Oh, for sure. And you know what? I was talking to Dustin about this in the car yesterday. We actually drove down to San Antonio to go thrifting, which was great because then I had a captive audience to talk through my thoughts for the outline for this episode.
- [01:53]
Kim
A captive audience in a car?
- [01:56]
Amanda
Yeah, except he kept interrupting me and I'd be like, wait a minute, I'm not done. Anyway, so of course Dustin loved this topic as well. And I was telling him, I was like, you know, last week I was on Instagram like I always am, and someone shared a video in which she talked about how she had been into secondhand shopping. Secondhand vintage, long before it was cool, as long ago as 15 years ago. And I had wanted to go in there and be like, wait, are you like 80 years old? Because it's been really cool for a long time. But I didn't. And anyway, we were talking about how weaving Dustin was like, oh, so, yeah, like, what? Did that person not hear about how secondhand inventors was popular in the 80s and 90s? And I was like, dustin, I don't want to Amanda, splain to you here, but actually it's been cool since like the 30s. And then I told them all about raccoon coats and stuff. So anyway, so anyway, yeah, so in part one, which was last week, we talked about the early days of thrift stores. Then we moved through the first 80ish years of the last century. Interestingly enough, we could only get 20 years into today's episode. But I'm blaming the Internet, right? We saw secondhand shopping Being adopted by the surrealists, college students, hippies, chic downtown IT girls of the 50s, the queer community, and really just about anyone who has lived outside the mainstream. And in the 70s, we saw thrifting moving into the mainstream as more and more people struggled economically through years of high inflation and unemployment. A combination depressingly called stagflation. It's also like a hard word to say. I'm sure whoever created that thought they were really clever, but they could have done better. I like stinkflation better. Personally. I don't know. Stinkinomics. I don't know. Anyway, department stores, which were the biggest retailers for most of the 20th century, found themselves creating entire departments of secondhand clothing, which is kind of wild too. Just imagine going into like a Macy's and seeing like, here's our secondhand section. And meanwhile, thrift stores, which as a reminder are businesses, fought to hold onto every last customer and grow their businesses by re merchandising, following the department store trends and revisiting the real estate strategy by moving stores to high traffic middle class areas. And oh yeah, tons of Americans cast off clothes were traveling the world as part of a massive global secondhand clothing industry. Kim, would you say that sums up everything we've discussed so far?
- [04:27]
Kim
Yes. I mean, yes. But you have to listen to that episode if you haven't, because there are some really amazing parts that she didn't even really touch on.
- [04:36]
Amanda
Yeah, there's a lot. Basically what we're saying is that the only way you were into secondhand before everyone else is, I would say you probably had to be born in like 1910, 1920. So if you are, if you were into it that early, let us know. We want to hear what you were buying. Okay. Also, we forgot there were raccoons. Can't forget, of course. Basically the patron saint of the department. Today we're going to focus on what happened with the trend of secondhand shopping in the 80s and 90s. It's going to be very nostalgic for many of us with lots of style icons and films that have inspired us over the years. It's going to be really fun. But before we jump into all of that, Kim has her regular spiel.
- [05:18]
Kim
Yep, I'm just going to say it. Quick follow rate and review. It's just so important for you to interact with our podcasts on all the streaming platforms. Also, just make sure to recommend the podcast if anyone's looking for a good listen to your friends and family. And then follow us on Instagram at at underscore the underscore department. If you're looking for any show notes or any of these image references, you can find it on our website, the Department World, which is also available through our Instagram profile. But actually, first, Amanda, before you jump in, how did you first kind of get into secondhand clothing? Like, where was your. Where was your input there?
- [06:03]
Amanda
I bet it's very similar for you, right? It was, like, Sassy magazine and, like, all of the, like, coolest musicians of, like, the 90s were, like, loudly and proudly wearing secondhand clothing and, like, Thrifting and, like, Sassy would have articles about thrifting. And I was very lucky because where I lived in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, now, I was, like, not allowed to get my driver's license until I was 20. But my mom seemed to have no problem with me just taking buses all over the place by myself. And so there was so safe. I didn't. There was one thrift store that I really liked to go to, which was a Salvation army that was in an old grocery store. And that place was awesome. And that one I had to have someone drive me to. But there was this other place in Harrisburg. It was called Reuben Brothers, and I had to take two buses to get there, which meant it. Even though it was probably, like, four miles from our house, it took me, like, you know, an hour and a half to get there. And it was a place that was basically like a rag yard, but on a smaller scale, where you just go in there and they just had mountains of clothes that you would literally climb through. It smelled weird, and you paid by the pound, and it was 25 cents a pound.
- [07:07]
Kim
Wow.
- [07:07]
Amanda
All the clothes there were totally, like, from people probably who had passed away or moved into some sort of assisted living situation. So it was all. It was all 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. And like, I said, 25 cents a pound. Like, I would throw things back.
- [07:22]
Kim
People are just. People are just drooling right now. I mean, I am.
- [07:26]
Amanda
I know. I know. And I would go there, and there would be, like, you would expect if you. If an event like this happened right now, people would be in line all morning. They'd be setting up lawn chairs the night before to get in this line. You know, people would be, like, up to bad behavior in there. It'd be like, me and three other people. You know, it was, like, dead quiet.
- [07:45]
Kim
Yeah.
- [07:47]
Amanda
You know, and it would just be like, I was the only, like, teenager there. But, man, I had, like, the best clothes. And, you know, also, I definitely realized pretty early on in my life that I was never going to have the opportunity to buy in the trends, into the trends like the popular kids at school were doing, because my mom wasn't going to buy me, like, guests or a spree or whatever denim people are into at that point. She just. We didn't have that kind of money, and she thought it was stupid. And she was definitely the kind of person who said, it's school, not a fashion show. I'm sure many of you have heard, right? And I'd be like, well, it actually, like, kind of begged to differ.
- [08:23]
Kim
Yeah, I don't think any parents would say that today.
- [08:25]
Amanda
No, I hope not. I mean, they clearly are not watching the right shows on the CW or whatever. But I was like, this is a place where I can fully express myself and who I am and what I'm into and almost wear it as a badge for other people to recognize. And I can afford it. Right. So it was, like, perfect for me, and I just leaned into it more and more, even though it wasn't the norm. And, you know, I think it started, like, a way of life for me that I've never looked back on. How about you?
- [08:58]
Kim
Well, actually, I was introduced. And this is gonna be a really Midwestern thing to say, but I was introduced through my youth group. It's like a. Yeah, like the church youth group.
- [09:11]
Amanda
No way.
- [09:12]
Kim
Yeah. I mean, I loved my youth group. We had an awesome youth group. I didn't. I was not particularly partial to the religious aspect of the youth group, but I loved the people. And one of the counselors was this rad college girl, and she was into all, like, the indie music. We got introduced to tons of indie music, but she also introduced us to. To secondhand shopping. And we would shop at oftentimes a lot of the downtown. Downtown Madison, of course, like, thrift shops and kind of, like cool punk shops. My favorite one was juju and Moxie and they sold costume jewelry. But also, like, a lot of, like, just really hip, you know, it was. Because it was really edited. It was an edited selection, you know, and it was still really affordable for, you know, a high schooler who worked at a bread bakery. My money would go, but I also go to, like, good. We go to Goodwill's and, you know, because she kind of taught us how to. How to dig through the clothes there and stuff like that. So that's really how I was introduced to it.
- [10:14]
Amanda
Yeah, I mean, I just think it was like. It was one of those. It was kind of like a social thing in so many aspects, like, anything.
- [10:21]
Kim
But you know, it's also, you know, competitive. Like, if you go with a friend, it's like finding the coolest thing, or you don't want to actually go with a friend because they might find the thing that you want. I usually shopped alone.
- [10:37]
Amanda
Yeah, me too. Unless I needed someone to drive me somewhere. But I'll say, like, in Harrisburg, where I lived, most of the thrift stores weren't really that great. And so I really leaned on, you know, Reuben's to go get my 25 cents a pound clothes. But in York, where my grandma lived, there was the. The massive salvation army that I was referring to that was in an old grocery store. A market for any central Pennsylvania yours yins listening to this. And it was huge. And like, thrift shopping was not popular in York, Pennsylvania in the 90s. And so I like, I could have taken 10 people with me and we all found a million amazing things. Although I still mostly just like, my grandma would drop me off and come back for me. But whereas, like, up in Harrisburg and on the west shore of the river there, like, those stores were already picked through by like, other. Or picked through in my opinion. Right. But probably going back, I'd be like, oh, my God, there's so much good stuff. But, you know, part of being really into secondhand shopping is complaining about people picking through it. It's just like part of the way of life. Yeah. So, like, definitely, I think from. I mean, obviously most people who are listening to this, we are like preaching to the proverbial choir here. Like, we all love secondhand. If you find this topic interesting, you've probably had at least some interaction with your life, with it in your life, if not it being like a major part of your life right now. But it, man, it's just like so interesting like that. It's not. It's not a new thing. And it's been really fun to trace the thread to like the moment where you and I and all the people our age got into it. So should we jump right into it?
- [12:10]
Kim
Yeah, let's do it.
- [12:11]
Amanda
Okay. So, Kim, when someone says 1980s to you, what do you envision? Because it's like a really specific mood.
- [12:19]
Kim
Like stonewashed jeans.
- [12:21]
Amanda
Oh, acid washed jeans.
- [12:23]
Kim
Acid washed jeans, neons, scrunchies. You know the look. The classic television look.
- [12:31]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah. Like shoulder pads.
- [12:33]
Kim
Shoulder. Yes. Working girl.
- [12:36]
Amanda
Like shows and movies about just being rich. Like the Dynasty. The Dynasty. No, I think it's believe. Just Dynasty, Dallas, you know, all of that movies about that working girl. Women like, tromp into the office with their high top sneakers and their, like, power suits, you know, Definitely. Like, it's interesting when I think about the 80s, at first pass, it feels like everything is brand new. Right. Like, I mean, spoiler, we're gonna get into it. There are some vintage things at play, but right out of the gate, it feels like it was almost like everything old got tossed away and we started over fresh.
- [13:12]
Kim
Yeah, everyone went to the mall.
- [13:13]
Amanda
Yeah, exactly. And in some ways, they did. So in the 1980s, three things are at play in the world of secondhand. One is that people are, like, so over the 70. That's probably why for many of us, it feels as if everything was brand new. They don't want anything that looks remotely like it. So designers are borrowing actually from the 50s and earlier because somehow we ran out of new ideas already when it was only 1980. I don't know how women were dressing in menswear styles and shapes from those eras. They were also borrowing a lot of the, like, hyper femininity of that era, but mixing it with menswear. And then, of course, like, there was this whole spin of, like, new colors, bold colors, neons, bright colors, mega shoulders, which weren't even, like a new thing either. Those, I want to say, were from the 30s and 40s. I mean, nothing was brand new, but it felt brand new because there was sort of like this new coat of paint thrown on. Was also a time of faux prosperity. So people wanted to buy expensive things for less money and look like they had a lot of money. Right. We also see a certain archetype appearing in movies and music. Generally female, but not always. That embraces an eclectic secondhand style. And it's all a key component of their identity, their personality, their place in life. So let's start by breaking down these three phenomena. You know, first things first. By, say, 1982, the last thing anyone wanted to be associated with was the 1970s. I can't even think of a time in our lives, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, where we have been so mortified by the previous 10 years. Right. It's, like, so interesting. For many, it was a memory best left in the rear view. It was a decade full of financial struggles, the final five years of the Vietnam War, gas shortages, widening economic inequality, nuclear accidents. You know, I actually grew up by Three Mile island, and it had a pretty significant nuclear episode in 1979. There was Watergate and was just on and on and on. People were like, the 70s suck. Many look at the 70s as the end of a sort of, like, exuberant optimism that had persisted since the end of World War II. Like, it was like things started getting real. And I do wonder. Not that, like, I feel like, well, Hindsight is always 2020. Right. But right now it doesn't seem like, you know, three years into this decade, that it's as, like, shockingly regretful yet as the 70s became for so many people. But I do wonder if, like, we're gonna hit 2030 and people are gonna be like, oh, God, never talk to me about the 20s ever again.
- [15:57]
Kim
Millennials.
- [15:59]
Amanda
Yeah, exactly. Like, who knows?
- [16:01]
Kim
Yeah.
- [16:02]
Amanda
So as part of this, no one wanted to dress like it was the 70s anymore either. I mean, that was, like, embarrassing. That means no more disco, no bell bottoms, no leisure suits, and no more synthetic fabrics. Well, kind of. Of course, synthetics would still be around, but kind of sparingly. And in these new, less 70s incarnations, thanks to improving fabric technology and kind of the end of that double knit polyester that is, like, iconic of the 70s. The 60s, a totally innocent decade that did not deserve this mistreatment, was also kind of lumped into this anti 70s sentiment because of the use of synthetic fabrics during the era. Just sort of like an overlap of ideas and just had this major nostalgia for the 1950s with filmmakers churning out some big movies set during that decade. And as I was looking at this list, I was like, oh, yeah, A lot of the movies that, like, my mom would be watching when I was a child were set in the 1950s.
- [17:03]
Kim
Oh, yeah.
- [17:04]
Amanda
Kind of weird. And the other thing I'll call out is like, this is when Those like, like 50s style diners started popping up everywhere.
- [17:13]
Kim
I love those places.
- [17:15]
Amanda
Me too.
- [17:15]
Kim
They were like my favorite. A kid.
- [17:17]
Amanda
Oh, my God, me too. And you played the music at the table. You get like a milkshake and like a chicken.
- [17:22]
Kim
Curly fries.
- [17:24]
Amanda
Yeah. And they were like, fun. Like, nifty. 50s is one in Philadelphia. And there was like another chain. What was it like? I'm blinking on it now. But they had electricity when nobody else did. Johnny Rockets. There was like a power outage when I lived in Philadelphia, and no one in any of the surrounding blocks had electricity except for Johnny Rockets. And so then we're all in this, like 50s diner, kind of half mad, but also like, kind of having a good time. But there's all kinds of other ones all over the country, and some of them are still around and some of them are long gone. But, yeah, I do have a soft spot for them. And in terms of Movies. We had Stand By Me, Back to the Future, which was technically about the 80s, but was mostly about the 50s. Peggy sue got Married, which was like always on rerun, I swear. La Bamba, the Richie Valentine's Story.
- [18:13]
Kim
Good movie.
- [18:14]
Amanda
Such a good story. Good one. The Buddy Holly Story, of course, your favorite. And hopefully now Neil's favorite, Dirty Dancing. And this is just like the tip of the iceberg. There was just so much 50s nostalgia in terms of entertainment. And we'd already. Not we really, but people who are older than us had already received an early taste of 50s nostalgia in the 70s with American Graffiti, Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, Rocky Horror Picture show, and of course, Grease. And we know, even if we didn't live through them, that Grease started a lot of its own style trends. Like, it was such a huge movie. The return of the 50s makes sense for several reasons. You know, one was that the 70s had been a very rough time. And while all of us know that the 50s were only a great time for white, cisgendered straight men of a certain income level, it was widely considered a simpler and better time. Possibly because those are the same people that sort of control the cultural narrative, or at least that did then it also hit that nostalgia sweet spot where it was reminding baby boomers of their childhoods, like, perhaps, oh, I don't know, Kathy might be loving a nice 1950s movie.
- [19:26]
Kim
Oh, speaking of Kathy, I listened to the podcast. It's excellent.
- [19:30]
Amanda
And what did you think?
- [19:30]
Kim
Oh, my gosh. So good.
- [19:33]
Amanda
Best theme song, too.
- [19:34]
Kim
I mean, amazing, amazing theme song. Just really, really well done and, like, really opens up my perspective of Kathy, but also really dived into the zeitgeist of that time period. And it's just a fascinating lesson, but.
- [19:48]
Amanda
That'S all so fascinating. And how did you feel that now that you've listened, knowing that Kathy ultimately married her, like, schlubbo, lame ass boyfriend? Disappointing, right? I just think Kathy could have done better.
- [20:01]
Kim
She could have done better. But I mean, it was the same thing as, like, the Gilmore Girls, you know, it's like, oh, really? You know, wah, wah. But.
- [20:10]
Amanda
Yeah, definitely the same thing.
- [20:11]
Kim
Not giving away any of that, but if you haven't listened to the.
- [20:15]
Amanda
Yeah, no spoilers on Kath. The plot of Kathy.
- [20:18]
Kim
Not Kathy, but no, but Gilmore Girls.
- [20:20]
Amanda
Oh, yeah, that's you. I mean, I heard that Gilmore Girls is basically a Kathy reboot.
- [20:26]
Kim
It kind of is interesting, but it also reminds me a little bit of Bridget Jones diary where, you know, how she was talking. Kathy was talking about how she was writing down, like, her weight, her calorie. And I was like. And she was like, crying about men. And I'm like, oh, my God, you're right. This is Bridget Jones Diary.
- [20:46]
Amanda
It is Bridget Jones Diary. Wow. Wow. I wonder if.
- [20:50]
Kim
Boom.
- [20:50]
Amanda
Kathy Geiswaite should sue the writer of Bridget Jones Diary. I don't know. Anyway, I could. Yeah. Wow. What a silly. Because I remember reading Bridget Jones Diary the first time and being like, what is up with this wackadoo? Writing down her weight every day? Like, I don't need this, you know? But you're right. Kathy was doing the same thing. So. Yeah. So baby boomers, like, Kathy would be really into the 50s nostalgia because it reminded them of their. Her childhood. But also the parents of the boomers were like, oh, this reminds me of my early adulthood. So you get, like, that sweet spot. Totally. Right, huh?
- [21:26]
Kim
It's a nostalgia sandwich.
- [21:28]
Amanda
Exactly. And it's like when you get two generations caught in one bit of nostalgia, it's like. There had also been so much aesthetic and cultural transformation in the 60s and 70s that the 50s felt like a completely different era. And it was really easy to romanticize. It looked so different than anything anyone had been living through for the last 20 years. And furthermore, the 50s and the 80s were sort of the bookends of the Cold War with it beginning in the 1950s and ending in the 1980s.
- [22:03]
Kim
I do think that the preppy. You know how when we had the whole. A couple episodes on preppy where the 50s were so popular with the prep style, and then it became this massive thing in the 80s that there probably was some sort of mirror effect that was happening and kind of building on that.
- [22:21]
Amanda
I think so, too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. The 80s were really, really transformative. And actually, I mean, maybe every decade feels that way to some people, but I will say, having lived through, like, several decades now that, like, the 90s actually weren't as. I don't know, like, they felt like a continuation. By the way, if any of you, like, love Cold War nostalgia, which I know is, like, a specific aesthetic genre, I recently watched a series on Netflix called Cleo with a K. It's German, but it's overdubbed in English and not in a bad way. And it's about a female sort of like, assassin slash spy during the collapse of Eastern Germany. East Germany, I guess, not eastern Germany. It's fascinating.
- [23:09]
Kim
Oh, my God. I'm gonna have to watch this.
- [23:10]
Amanda
You will love it. It's really funny. Dustin keeps making fun of Me, because like in the, like, you know, the little like few notes that they give you before you watch it to entice you, it says that like Stephen King loves this series. He's like, well, are you gonna like tweet Stephen King about it? And I was like, no. Anyway, yeah, highly recommended. Also, like, look looks so good. So yeah, that's the 80s, right? Like we're like getting into the 50s in a big way. And fashion trends. There were fashion trends that were launched by this return of the 50s. For example, the Ray Ban wave bearer, an iconic sunglass shape of the 50s worn by James Dean, Roy Orbison, countless other people. I found this essay called Ever Wonder why the 80s look like the 50s? Ask the 70s. And they explained how the Wayfarer became a such a big deal. They said the brand enjoyed a stratospheric resuscitation after inking a deal with Burbank based Unique Product Placement, which by the way, everyone is a company that still exists. Its whole job is to get products into movies like E.T.
- [24:21]
Kim
Or like.
- [24:22]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, like the Reese's Pieces. I can't eat a Reese's Pieces without thinking it's true. Right. So they pimped. According to this article, this is not a term I would normally use, which pimped and subsequently placed the shades in about 300 movies and television shows into the mid-80s. They question, could Risky Business era Tom Cruise have peered through another brand of sunglasses as darkly?
- [24:50]
Kim
I don't know.
- [24:50]
Amanda
I specifically think of Risky Business when I think of the sunglasses. Not least of which because they came back in the aught and we were buying a shit ton of knockoff Wayfarers at Urban Outfitters and we called them Risky Business.
- [25:04]
Kim
Amazing. Amazing.
- [25:05]
Amanda
So Wayfarers would fall out of vogue in the 90s. Kind of like pretty fast. Although as you and I have discussed in the past, a lot of these sunglass choices of the 90s I would not care to see again. And it's sad when I do see them again.
- [25:18]
Kim
Yes, exactly. Like the Wrap sunglasses, which I'm still seeing them. Yeah, they never went away on dads across the World.
- [25:26]
Amanda
They didn't. They didn't. But the Wayfarers would return again in the aughts as 80s aesthetic became a key component which we're going to talk about in the next episode of that indie sleaze party hipster scene. So the Wayfarer is just going to only be out of Trend for like 10 years. Don't worry. But then during that 10 years, we will see some of the worst sunglasses that humans have ever seen. We got the weird tiny glasses, those wraparound glasses. Just so many. So many bad glasses that nobody looked good wearing. It was a really bad time for eyewear.
- [26:02]
Kim
I mean, those are kind of back now, too, because it's the 90s.
- [26:05]
Amanda
Yeah, that's true. It's. But are the wraparound ones? Oh, God, I'm not ready.
- [26:10]
Kim
I mean, you know that people like to be irreverent.
- [26:13]
Amanda
Yeah, I guess. But those is like. I still see people genuinely wearing them because they've been wearing them since the 90s. And it's always on, like a sunburned neck. Like on the back of a sunburned neck. Right.
- [26:23]
Kim
It reminds me. What's that? Beer. It's like the one with the orange slice. And he's wearing the wraparound glasses.
- [26:30]
Amanda
Yes, yes. Anyway, don't do it, guys. Or do it. Whatever. Own it, but wear sunscreen on your neck. There were a lot of other things that we saw directly translating from the 50s into the 80s. And like every time one decade decides to adopt the trends of a previous decade, they cherry pick them. Right. They didn't do everything. Blue jeans and white T shirts directly mimicking James Dean. And that also included motorcycle jackets, gloves, pearls, rhinestones, cardigans and sweater clips. Even poodle skirts and saddle shoes. Fit and flare dress silhouettes. The new whole new look kind of vibe. Polka dots. In addition to These more traditional 50s looks, people of all genders were also loving the very traditional menswear coats of the 50s, often opting for the real thing, like a vintage one. And something I have noticed in my lifetime and while working on this series is that coats are frequently many people's first foray into secondhand and vintage clothing. Like they might never have been in a vintage store before, but suddenly they're going to buy that coat. It's like the easy first step. There was a 1985 New York Times article called vintage a Fad keeps growing. Those American and European designers who show oversized men's clothes for women have produced a bonanza for old clothing stores. Men's coats from the 1940s and 50s are being snapped up by young women and young men who either can't afford designer pieces or won't pay for them or find the vintage look more attractive. Whatever the motivation, Saturday on Lower Broadway. From Astor Place to Canal street is a mob scene of high school and college students. Smaller crowds can be seen in the West Village, the St Mark's Place area, and Soho. Most of the shoppers are looking for used black and white tweed coats. I can like picture these. When they find them, they pay anywhere from 9.99 to $180. Most of the coats are in the 20 to $75 range. Many young members of the fashion avant garde started buying such coats mainly from thrift shops and flea markets two or more years ago. Like many fads that originate on the street, this one has now come full circle. A couple years ago, high fashion people were the base of our business, said Guy Levy, owner of Chameleon, a vintage clothing store at 270 Bleecker Street. Now people from the suburbs who wouldn't have been caught dead in old clothes are coming in, trying on the overcoats, rolling up the sleeves and feeling terrific. And I can like totally, I mean, like many of these trends that we talk about that kind of get there, start in the secondhand realm, which in my career has been kind of the rule rather than the exception. By, I would say the mid to late 80s, we see retailers making their own versions of these, like mass market retailers. Like I remember my mom having a coat like this and it definitely came from like somewhere at the mall, you know, like pennies. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Probably on sale at pennies with the coupon. Many people who were into this 50s trend actually found themselves wearing a mix of vintage clothing and brand new stuff. As more and more designers and brands began to make their own 80s does 50s, which is also a great online secondhand shopping term. If you want to google for that, you will find 80s done does 50s and there are a lot more options there than actual 50s does 50s at this point. And these retailers were creating 50s silhouettes in bold 80s print motifs. 50s clothing was the most soft in the vintage world. Most vintage clothing aficionados kind of sneered at clothing from the 60s and later because it would be polyester and therefore mass produced. So even these 80s does 50s new clothes wouldn't have had as much cachet as the real thing. This desire for 50s clothing led more and more people to get into secondhand clothing and vintage shopping to be more authentic. I found this 1982 New York Times article called A New look in Old Clothes. Vintage clothing shops, once the realm of hippies, artists and college students, today are attracting a more diverse clientele as people search for distinctive, well made clothes at affordable prices. It used to attract primarily the eccentric, but I don't believe that's true anymore. I get all kinds of people who are looking to express their individuality and sense of style, said Belinda Faust, who owns Charisma in New Milford. There's been a rebirth of romanticism and nostalgia, said Ms. Foust, whose story is painted in peachy hues. I can, like, picture it.
- [31:17]
Kim
I mean, it's totally pretty in pink, Right?
- [31:20]
Amanda
Right. In everything. Movies, music, fashion. People are searching for a more romantic mood, and they're looking to the past for inspiration. Attitudes have definitely changed, said Joan Murphy, who owns the tiny shop Roxy Taylor in Old Avon Village. People aren't as concerned about something being used. I think it's because of the quality of. And because the price of new clothing these days is astronomical. That's one person who's getting into secondhand shopping. And in this case, the focus was on vintage. Right. And don't worry, we're gonna show you some more examples of that as we move through the 80s. Next, we have a swath of people who may have already been shopping secondhand who are, who are continuing into the 80s, maybe picking up some more people along the way. And that is the person who is thrifty. The 80s are a big time of quasi prosperity. While egregious displays of wealth are the thing, from luxury brands to sports cars to fur leather coats, the reality is that wealth inequality is continuing to widen and more and more people are struggling. Yet there's this drive to look wealthy. Right. The Reagan administration removed a lot of the regulations that were designed to protect consumers, workers, and our planet, to be honest, was kind of the beginning of the end. And the administration's reasoning was that these regulations were holding back business growth, which was therefore holding back American prosperity. Turned out kind of to not be the case, but, you know, bless them for trying. What really happened is that the rich got richer and everyone else struggled. The administration also chipped away at the social safety net as much as possible, driving more people into even more dire situations than they had been in in the 70s. So many people aren't doing well financially in a decade that is all about seeming as conspicuously wealthy as possible. So why not buy all of those fancy designer clothes, shoes and purses secondhand? Because brands are such a big deal in the 80s. Yeah, they're going to continue to be a big deal in the 90s. And you know, to, I would say to a certain extent now, but the what brands mean and what those brands are has definitely changed decade over decade over decade. And that's how always really interesting to think about too. But this is like the era of, like the brand. You know, it turns out there are plenty of brand like name brand goods to find at consignment Stores and thrift shops, these types of stores saw even more growth than they had had in the 70s, which in the last episode we talked about, that was like, really substantial. I was trying to think of, like, brands of the 80s that I would be a big deal without, like, actually looking up. And I kept coming back to LA Gear. I don't know.
- [34:04]
Kim
Oh, I remember LA Gear, of course.
- [34:06]
Amanda
Right, yeah. But I mean, there were so many more. There was a Spree, there was Gas, Benetton. Oh, yeah, for sure. And even Big Dog.
- [34:16]
Kim
Big Dog is really big, at least in the Midwest. I think I've talked about that.
- [34:20]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah. No, they were big at my school too. Oh, yeah. Tommy Hilfiger. Yeah. I mean, it was all about, like, designer brands, like name brand jeans. I remember this was something that would, like. I don't know, it was something my mom liked to complain about, like people having to have a brand on their butts.
- [34:35]
Kim
And I'm like, Gloria Vanderbilt.
- [34:37]
Amanda
Yes, that was a big one. That was a good one. Jordache.
- [34:41]
Kim
Yes.
- [34:42]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah. I mean, designer jeans were a thing. Calvin Klein, you know, and in the 80s, like, brand was everything. Everything. So I came across this 1982 article from the New York Times called Prosperity Drops in at the Thrift Shops Sometimes. These titles are so good. This is a little bit of a long read, but I picked my favorite things because I think they really tell this story. While some owners of department stores and retail shops have been crying the recession blues, business has never been brisker at the thrift shops run by Long island charities that sell donated merchandise and equipment to raise funds for their philanthropies. The five Long island thrift shops of the National Council of Jewish Women reported an increase in of sales volume of about 25% over the last year. That's like an incredible sales comp. By the way, anywhere I've worked, we would have been dying to get that. The St. Vincent DePaul Society, which operates six stores and warehouses in Nassau and Suffolk counties and opened its seventh and largest store a few days ago in Selden, reports that its gross sales have reached the $1 million a year mark, double the gross sales figure of four years ago. And the Salvation army, with seven stores in the two counties, estimates that its sales will be about 1.5 million this year, up 10% over last year.
- [36:06]
Kim
Jeez. And that's the 80s.
- [36:08]
Amanda
I know. And this is just a few stores, everyone. According to Blossom Zimmerman, great name, five stars.
- [36:16]
Kim
Yep.
- [36:16]
Amanda
The coordinator of.
- [36:17]
Kim
Do you think she changed her name or do you think she was born a Blossom.
- [36:21]
Amanda
I mean, I don't know. There was Blossom, you know, the TV show, which is 90s. Yeah. But still she could be, you know, it could be a family name.
- [36:28]
Kim
It is. Or maybe a hippie name.
- [36:30]
Amanda
That's true. Blossom Zimmerman, if you're listening.
- [36:33]
Kim
So good, so good.
- [36:34]
Amanda
Tell us about your name. Well, she was the coordinator of the National Council's Peninsula section thrift shop. She said the recession and inflation, which have hurt the regular retail trade, have contributed to the upsurge in thrift sales once again. This is like a phenomenon. We saw this happening in the 70s. We're seeing it happen right now. Right. Like when people have less money, they shop secondhand. At one time, she said, there was a widespread belief that only people at the poverty level would buy at stores selling donated merchandise. But now the cost of everything is so high that people from the middle class and even the upper middle class are looking for bargains. And they have discovered we have good ones to offer. James Mulcahy, the director of stores for St. Vincent de Paul, said that some of the organization stores were called nearly new shops because today's thrift merchandise has improved markedly. He said that in addition to the recession and inflation, the flea markets had indirectly contributed to the increase in thrift sales. The flea markets, he said, have educated middle class people to the fact that if they went to the right places, they could buy new merchandise at discounts. After that, they became interested in merchandise that was slightly used at even greater savings. This next section is fascinating and I had to include it. Changing social patterns also have affected sales, according to thrift store supervisors. They say that many unmarried young couples do not want to make a commitment to buying new furniture. And so they go to thrift shops where their furniture investment is small. The new social climate affects donations as well as purchases. The rate of divorces and separations keeps climbing. Mr. Mulcahy says. Said in a sense, we are in a distress business when there is the stress of a family breakup. We benefit from the donation of appliances and furnishings that are no longer needed because of the split. And I was like, oh yeah, like most of my friends parents got divorced in the 80s or early 90s. I guess maybe they did donate a lot of stuff.
- [38:34]
Kim
Yeah, exactly.
- [38:35]
Amanda
What a weird thing to think about.
- [38:37]
Kim
Yeah. And. And as a college student, I remember getting, getting, you know, couches and things from the thrift store because we didn't need to invest in anything. That was like a long term solution.
- [38:49]
Amanda
Well, right. And I don't know about, you but like when my parents would go buy furniture, like new, it was like a thing. It's like so expensive. Like we didn't have IKEA back then.
- [38:58]
Kim
You got dressed up?
- [38:59]
Amanda
Yeah.
- [39:00]
Kim
Oh yeah, yeah. No, no, exactly.
- [39:02]
Amanda
It was like a whole day at the furniture store, right? Oh, the worst. Yeah, the worst. So boring. My brother and I would go around and play in the fake rooms and probably like annoy everyone. We'd be like, what if we lived here and we had these bunk beds, that kind of stuff anyway, like, you know, college students, people who are just out of college, people who are living together, are not going to go get dolled up and spend the day at the furniture store and then spend like thousands and thousands of dollars on a, like a living room suit. You know, it was, it was the. Now you can go to Ikea and you can buy things by the piece and it's not as expensive. But this was like a very different time in terms of furniture and even like more things like dishes and whatnot. So thrift stores, once again we're seeing that they should invest more money into the general sort of like vibe of their spaces. So they remodeled, they re merchandised and they tried to make the stores look even more like regular stores that sell new stuff. And like the 70s, we see thrifting becoming even more mainstream for people of all economic levels. From a 1986 New York Times article called Thrift Shops are Updating Their Image. We have everything from the very best to the very cheapest, said Nanette Hayes, president of Everybody's Thrift Shop. But we're in an affluent time when the better stuff is selling. People on welfare don't shop in thrift shops. And I wanted to include that because, you know, there's always been. And I see this argument coming up a lot, not that I want to get into it here, about the ethics of resale, that thrift stores are for poor people and that if you shop there and you're not poor, poor in quotes, all poor in quotes here, then you are doing a disservice that you are stealing things from poor people. And the reality is that like there. It's been a long time since thrift stores were only for poor people to shop in like, like a hundred years, you know? You know, and I do wonder about this quote a lot because while my family was poor and would have been well served to shop at thrift stores, it was highly stigmatized in my low income communities. Like when I started thrifting, my mom was so embarrassed and my grandma would Be like, if there was, like, a family event coming up. And my grandma, like, loves me and was very supportive of everything I did, but she would ask my mom to ask me not to wear any thrift store clothes because it was just mortifying. Right. There was sort of this feeling that if you entered a thrift store, you were completely surrendering any chance at being middle class or achieving the American. The American dream. Basically, the last thing you could do was engage in something that made you seem poor, even if you were poor. It was about denying poorness. And so my family was far more likely to shop at Kmart and other discount stores than any thrift store out there. And so I personally had never been in a thrift store until I made the decision as a young teenager to get into it. It was like a whole new world for me. And I do have friends who are like, oh, my family's been thrifting their whole lives. That was not my family. I'm assuming it was not yours either.
- [42:08]
Kim
K. No, no, not at all.
- [42:09]
Amanda
Yeah.
- [42:10]
Kim
I told you. My mother would throw away. Secretly throw away my thrift store clothes in the trash. I would go down. Cause she did all the laundry. You know, I was very lucky growing up. She did all the laundry. Wow. But she would also filter through. And I remember finding one of my T shirts in her trash. And I was like.
- [42:29]
Amanda
Yeah, no, I hear you. My mom would do that too, with, like, I had a bunch of, like, Star Wars T shirts that I had thrifted. And also, I'm still holding a grudge about this 9 inch nail shirt that I wore all high school and forgot to take to college. And it was never to be seen again. And it was so worn in and perfect. Yeah, that one definitely ended up in the trash. I would never do that, by the way, to my child. No, right?
- [42:54]
Kim
No.
- [42:55]
Amanda
Anyway, thrifting was still seen as a savvy move for people with more money, not people with less money, which I think is. Oh, it's just. Just people are so weird sometimes. And. And as part of that, the New York Times, which is, like, outside of New York, like, if you're reading the New York Times now, even you probably have a little bit of extra money, Right. It was regularly publishing tips and tricks for thrifting for all the newbies. Like, every year or two, there'd be a whole rundown. And throughout the year, they would share lists of different resale and thrift stores you should check out. I thought was super interesting. So the final cultural phenomenon on sort of fueling interest in secondhand shopping, well, we began to see an archetype forming in film and music. The wacky, slash cool, often female person who rejected the mainstream style, which at this point would have been preppy as the decade progressed, in favor of an eclectic, maximalist, secondhand style. So let's look at some of these style icons. They definitely have impacted me as I grew up. First one was Cyndi Lauper. Such a vintage lover that she worked at Screaming Mimi's, which I don't know if it's around anymore, but it was an iconic vintage clothing store in the village through the 90s at the very least. I've been there. She worked there in her late 20s. Because I actually discovered this week that Cyndi Lauper didn't achieve like mainstream success as a musician until she was in her 30s, which was kind of surprising to me because I feel like there's always this expectation that if you're not successful in your twenties at anything you do, then your life is over.
- [44:39]
Kim
I mean, actually, that's really funny because I was watching the CBGB movie, which is meh on Netflix yesterday, and they have a portrayal of Debbie Harry from Blondie. And Neil was looking it up because he was curious about her kind of when she got popular. And she didn't get popular until she was in her 30s as well. And we were shocked about.
- [45:02]
Amanda
Yeah, especially in the 80s, right, because like not. Not a time where people were thinking of women having value beyond a certain age. And her style is just like iconic in that it is like extra maximal in every way. Like it is like lots of jewelry, lots of tchotchkes, lots of layers, mixed fabrics, garments customized and upcycled into other things. Crazy hair, just like a really strong look. L'officiel a little sort of retrospective into her style over the years. And they said Lauper was known for her distinctive, free, spirited image that was influenced by bold trends of the 80s. An armful of stacked bracelets, bright colored locks and retro cut dresses and skirts. Lauper blended the boldness of the 80s with punk rock elements when it came to her ensembles. And she, she was a character, right? Like the way she talked, exactly the way she performed, you know, she was in some movies and she has this like really, really distinctive voice that is like quirky. Definitely a fashion icon still. Next were the B52s, which I always think of as a 90s band. But nope, actually they got their start in the 70s. They're really like big in the 80s. I just was unaware of it. I found this amazing vice Article by Scarlett Newman that you should all give a read. It's going to be in the show notes. It focuses on the importance of wig in the B52's aesthetic and image. And I was like, oh my God, you're right, they do wear a lot of wigs. They kind of started with just like passing around random thrift stored wigs, like back and forth. But over time, like it became a more curated and I would assume more expensive undertaking. But this quote was great. The front women, Kate Pearson and Cindy Wilson, managed to hone in on a style that heavily referenced the 50s and 60s combined with elements of futurism. Lots of reflective materials, lots of silver and sky high hairstyles that resembled satellite towers. Establishing an iconic image early on worked in their favor. As the band started to grow and build a fan base in the early 70s, on stage, they celebrated an exaggerated version of femininity. Femininity, that is such a hard word to say. With a touch of drag and a touch of science fiction. B movie. It wasn't your standard nihilistic punk image full of rage, but it was still pretty punk. And I think this is the first time we really see like in the 80s, we see musicians like mainstream musicians. Because B52s had a lot of major hits in the 80s, we see them very like obviously and vocally adopting vintage aesthetic and wearing secondhand and vintage clothing as part of that.
- [47:50]
Kim
Didn't even think about that. Like looking at these, these photos just, it's fascinating.
- [47:55]
Amanda
And they look like they could be from now, you know.
- [47:59]
Kim
Yeah, exactly.
- [48:00]
Amanda
When we get into films of that era, we start to see this archetyp becoming an even bolder statement about class, the boredom and predictability of the middle class and a general way of life and attitude about life. And one, I can't decide if this movie holds up or not. It is Madonna in Desperately Seeking Susan.
- [48:20]
Kim
I mean, I still like that movie.
- [48:22]
Amanda
I think I do too.
- [48:23]
Kim
Yeah, I'm not sure if it holds up, but I still really enjoy it. And I love the fashion.
- [48:27]
Amanda
I love the fashion. This one came out in 19, 1985. And this, this film alone starring Madonna at this time and having just such iconic wardrobe, I mean, major impact on fashion and retail trends for the rest of the decade.
- [48:46]
Kim
Oh my God. I bet if, if this came out around Urban Outfitters time.
- [48:49]
Amanda
I know, I know, it would just.
- [48:51]
Kim
Be a cash cow.
- [48:53]
Amanda
A cash cow for sure. This is another movie that definitely people look back on as a major style touchstone of the past, you know, 50 years. I read this article called Desperately Seeking Susan's Lessons in Thrifting and Thrills. It's from another mag, another one you should totally go check out. The writer says Susan is never clad in kitschy clothes. And I think the kitchen, the lack of kitschiness is really important here because some of the other characters we're going to talk about are. And definitely the B52s and Cyndi Lauper were. Were they were more on the kitschy end of this. Madonna seems to be permanently draped in the sheen of polyester and Lycra, with an abundance of lace and the clinking and clacking of multiple trinkets following her wherever she goes. She has a particular penchant for gloves, which she refuses to take off, even to snack on cheese doodles. Disgusting. And presents as someone who has tripped and fallen into a clothes rail at a thrift store at all times. Times. So naturally, when Susan arrives in New York, she immediately embarks on a secondhand shopping trip, falling in love with a pair of sequin boots in the window of her go to store. Love saves the day exchanging her jacket for the dazzling footwear. Roberta, who's the other character in the film, who has at this point been following Susan's movements, movements in complete all, buys that jacket for herself, bringing that jacket home home. Roberta's yuppie husband is less than pleased. You bought a used jacket. What are we, poor? Thus the theme of thrifting present throughout the film is suddenly rendered a political statement representing an antithesis to the money obsessed capitalist culture of the 1980s. And so I'm gonna try to like, remember the plot of this film to the best of my ability. But hopefully, Kim, between the two of us, we can like patchwork it together. Basically, there are two characters in the woman film. One is Susan, played by Madonna, and the other is Roberta, played by Patricia Arquette. Is that right? Rosanna Arquette, a different. Those Arquettes man taking over film. Anyway, so Roberta lives like on Long Island. She's like housewife. Yeah. You know, like has kind of like not very happy marriage. Just. Just isn't up to anything cool. Right. And knows it. And so she goes into the city, encounters Susan, played by Madonna, and kind of follows her around immediately. Fastest girl crush in the history of girl crushes. And so she's following Madonna's character around. And after Madonna trades this very iconic jacket. And don't worry, we're gonna share all these photos, but this jacket is like iconic, has a pyramid on the back of it, lots of gold thread. After Madonna swaps for those boots. I know they're fine, but, you know, bigger mistakes have been made, I guess. So she trades the jacket for the shoes. And so then Roberta, who's got this mega girl crush and also can see that this coat is a hot deal, buys the coat. Now here's where I sort of lose the thread because I think something happens to Roberta where she gets amnesia and she thinks she's Susan. Right. But somehow then Susan ends up in Roberta's house back on Long island with her husband. Right. And then hijinks ensue. Yeah, I guess we have to rewatch. Yeah. Oh, yeah. At like, Grant. Not at Grand Central Station, Adam. Port Authority party bus station. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's all kinds of stuff. I guess we need to re watch it. Definitely. So this. I mean, this film is like, so iconic. I did not see this until I was more like a teenager. But I remember I had a poster for this movie, even though I had not seen it in my room in like third grade because I just thought everyone in it looked so cool. And also at this time, like, like I said, this. This had such a massive impact from a style perspective that retailers were happy to cash in on making brand new versions of all the secondhand and vintage clothing that was in the movie. For example, there was a mall retailer called Baker's. I don't know if y'all had this in Wisconsin, but it was like a shoe brand. They have the exclusive license to make a collection of shoes inspired by the film, including copies of the boot that Madonna had very recklessly traded that jacket for. For a mere $49.99, you could get that boot.
- [53:54]
Kim
I mean, that's pretty. That's a pretty expensive boot for that time period.
- [53:58]
Amanda
Yeah, I know, I know. And it's like bedazzled. It has a fold over cuff. It looks really uncomfortable. Bowl.
- [54:04]
Kim
Yeah, it's got a kind of kitten heel, pointy toe.
- [54:07]
Amanda
Yeah. Oh, so many kitten hills in this time period too, which I. I don't know about. Do you do a kitten heel?
- [54:12]
Kim
I mean, I just don't. I don't even do heels anymore. I'm just like, ugh.
- [54:15]
Amanda
Just like with a kitten heel, it's like all the weirdness of a heel without the impact, so why not just go for it? Right? Anyway, I thought that that was really interesting. And this is not the first or last time we're gonna see retail saying like, hey, yeah, y'all don't need to go secondhand shopping. We'll just make it for you, you know, in this case, I think it was pretty successful. And I can look. I don't think anyone ever made Madonna's jacket from that. But everything else I could see in these photos, I was like, oh, yeah, you could find all of this at the mall. The big, oversized menswear coats, the bracelets, the lace gloves, the belts, the bodysuits, the bows, all of that was available for anyone, anywhere they went at the mall. So next we have Pretty in Pink, which came out a year later in 1986. And so far we've seen there's like this spectrum of these archetypes of secondhand in the 80s. We've got the super kitschy quirkiness of the B52s and Cyndi Lauper. And on the other end of the spectrum, we have Madonna being just like really sexy and like, like not. It wasn't funny, right? It was like very serious and calculated, but also chaotic. And I feel like Andy, the main character of Pretty in Pink, kind of lands in the middle there on that spectrum where she doesn't look chaotic and she doesn't look kitschy, but she looks very vintage and unique. Costume designer Marilyn Vance created the looks in Pretty in Pink. And if you've seen this movie, which I'm sure you've seen it, Kim. Right, of course.
- [55:51]
Kim
Oh, my God. Many, many times.
- [55:54]
Amanda
I can barely remember what happens in it, but I remember the clothes so clearly. And here we see the secondhand aesthetic being the realm of the cool but outsider working class kids. No John Hughes movie really holds up in 2023. There's just a lot of rape culture and casual racism and classism and lots of other stuff in it. So I don't necessarily recommend a rewatch or watch for the first time if you haven't seen seen it, but the style is on point, so maybe just Google some photos. Again, like, looking at all the outfits in this movie, I was like, yes, yes, yes, and yes. All relevant now would be like someone's dream wardrobe at this point, right? And it made like, Molly Ringwald just like a hero to so many girls all at once. And just such a fashion icon in 2021, Molly Ringwald told Vogue, at that point, people were still mostly going to the mall and shopping at places like Judy's, which I've never heard of, or the Gap, which I have definitely heard of. The idea of shopping vintage was somewhat bizarre. Everything Andy wears was sourced from vintage stores in Los Angeles. And that was very much the way I shopped at the time. I definitely think the film had an impact on the teens in that teens started dressing in more vintage outfits and in more layers. I really loved everything Marilyn did except the prom dress, which I've been very pretty open about not liking at the time.
- [57:19]
Kim
I know. I actually didn't like it at the time either. I was like, that's better.
- [57:23]
Amanda
Okay. I was gonna ask you how you felt about it, because the in the movie, it's two different dresses. It's like the dress her dad gets her, which is fine, and a dress that her friend slash boss at the record store, Iona, gives her, which is, like, incredible. It's like from the 50s, I want to say, or 60s, probably 60s.
- [57:39]
Kim
Yes.
- [57:40]
Amanda
He buys. So she has these two dresses, and then she takes them home and she turns them into a goddamn travesty.
- [57:46]
Kim
It's. Yeah, it's like a weird bag of.
- [57:49]
Amanda
Of a dress with, like, a high lace collar and a cold shoulder. And then it's like sort of like a moomoo. And it actually looks very old. It ages her.
- [57:59]
Kim
Yeah, it does.
- [58:00]
Amanda
So I remember watching this movie and always being like, oh, man, I wish she would have worn one of the other dresses as is every time.
- [58:08]
Kim
And.
- [58:09]
Amanda
Exactly. And then seeing it as, like, an adult, I was like, man, she really destroyed those two dresses that were great that I wore wish still existed. And believe it or not, that dress really was, in real life, made of those two dresses. They really did cut up. Two dresses. Wow.
- [58:23]
Kim
Okay. Yeah, that would make sense.
- [58:25]
Amanda
In 2017, Molly Ringwald really told us how she feels about the dress in an essay she wrote for Teen Vogue. She said, I'm still not sure how that dress happened. I don't know if I was swayed by Marilyn's passion when she talked me through the sketches or distracted by the algebra final. I was preparing to take in my trailer in between scenes. But whatever the reason, I signed off on the design. Weeks later, when I saw the dress for the first time, I burst into tears. The only thing I liked and even vaguely remembered from the consultation was the halter neckline. The puffy sleeves and inverted triangle sack like silhouette confounded me. But it was too late to change it.
- [59:03]
Kim
I mean, I, I, I would love to see it with a belt. I, I also kind of think, like, the strapless thing is kind of not flattering on her. Her. It just does these weird points. It's just.
- [59:18]
Amanda
It's very, very weird. I don't understand what was happening there. And I guess. Did you know that the film was originally the original ending, which was filmed, had her ending up with Ducky. And it didn't test well, or people at the studio were like, no, you got to change it. She's got to end up with a funky, preppy guy. Yeah. So they refilmed the. And Molly Ringwald was actually really stoked because she was like, okay, maybe I can get a better dress now. Because she was just sort of like, I don't even want to be on camera in this horrible thing. People are going to remember it, right? Of course they are. We're talking about it right now. And so she was hoping that they would get a new outfit and reshoot the whole thing. But to save money, they only reshot, like, a couple elements and used everything else. So she had to wear the dress again. And she was really, really disappointing.
- [60:05]
Kim
Trauma. It's like going to your own prom wearing a dress you hate.
- [60:10]
Amanda
Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of, like, I don't know if you ever watch Beverly Hills 90210, but Andrea ended up last minute. Go. I guess Andrea ended up going last minute to the prom in some dress of her mom's, which totally looked like something a mom would wear to, like, a wedding, like, as mother of the bride. And it was just like.
- [60:29]
Kim
But she was already the old lady of the show.
- [60:32]
Amanda
I know, I know. And I was like, come on, guys. Like, in retrospect, I'm like, y'all were way too mean to her.
- [60:38]
Kim
Yeah.
- [60:38]
Amanda
Like, she was not that old, okay?
- [60:41]
Kim
She really wasn't. She was like. Wasn't she, like, in her early 30s?
- [60:46]
Amanda
She was like, yeah, 30 or something. They always dressed her like she was 55. So bizarre. I was like, I get it, guys. Y'all think she's old. Okay? Move on. It made her stand out like a sore thumb. Okay, so in this film, if you haven't seen it, it, we have two different groups of people who dress very, very differently. We have the preppy rich kids, and they dress this sort of light colored, cliche, 80s preppy style. They're definitely not wearing secondhand clothes. Then we have the quirky, vintage outsider people who would totally be all of our friends. They have great taste in music, and they probably grew up to be super cool creatives. That's Ducky, who is Andy's best friend. Andy. Andy, the main character. Andy's boss at the record store, Iona, played by the glorious Ganny Potts. And then other people in their social group, because somehow these. This group of people is so cool that they, like, go to shows and bars and they're just doing cool stuff all the time. And hanging out at the record store. Whereas these preppy people just seem so miserable. So I found this amazing Fast Company interview with Pretty in Pink costume designer Marilyn Vance. And she talks about how she put this stuff together. You should all go read the whole thing. But there were a couple things I wanted to call out from it because they were really illuminating for me. She said both Andy and Ducky have extremely good taste in fashion. For high school kids or just about anybody. The way these characters dress is utterly unique for the era. But in addition to communicating taste, their clothes also say a lot about their thrift shop hopping financial situation. Economically speaking. Ducky couldn't go out and buy the linen suit worn by Steph, an insanely hot yuppie James Spader. Ugh. I think creepy. Anyway, he wouldn't think about it because he couldn't afford it. Vance says there's a scene in the movie where Andy's looking around for a prom dress. You see her outfit there? She's actually wearing a little jumper under that pattern dress which we made because she put that outfit together herself. And this is how she was perceived. She couldn't keep up with those other girls. There was no way. Way. As counterpoints to Andy and Ducky's economic status, Vance dressed up Stephen Blaine's Andrew McCarthy whole well to do group of people to look a certain way. The costume designer went to Kmart and bought beige and pink and blue and white and just mixed up everything for the girls and the boys. All the friends of Stephen Blaine served as a backdrop and a subtle color coded reinforcement of Andy and Ducky's outsider status. I thought that was fascinating. The rich kids were wearing clothes from. And it kind of like the color scheme kind of just made them all like even more bland and depressing.
- [63:29]
Kim
I love that.
- [63:30]
Amanda
I love that. She said, Ducky will always be my favorite character. He was modeled after the Teddy boys from England in the 70s. The big haircuts and layered outfits. Jon Cryer was the straightest guy you'd ever met. Which I think she meant that he was a real nerdlinger, a Dorcas Malarkus. He came in looking like a nerd in. It was who he was. But the character, he was open to visualize the character and work with us.
- [63:55]
Kim
It worked.
- [63:56]
Amanda
It worked, right. Every interview I've ever read with her, which I've read a lot this week, she always has to remind everyone that Jon Cryer is just like the biggest nerd ever.
- [64:06]
Kim
I mean we've seen him on two and a half meds.
- [64:09]
Amanda
I know. What was he thinking? I know, I know, I know. So by the end of the 80s, we have a lot of people shopping secondhand for different reasons. Reasons. One is people who are trying to get that authentic 50s aesthetic. Next are people who want to have that conspicuous wealth look of the 80s, but don't want to or can't afford to spend that kind of money. Then we have the people who were already shopping secondhand in previous decades, the creative types, the queer community, and anyone who was sort of like anti consumerist, anti capitalist. And then we have young people being inspired by a whole new set of fashion icons, from musicians to fictional characters to curate their own secondhand style. And I love this. We've got like a big cross section of people shopping secondhand, but all for different reasons and all are looking for different stuff, Right? So you could go thrift shopping together and not take one another's things. That's gonna change when we get to the 90s for sure. But yeah, the other thing is that no one was talking about running out of secondhand clothing. In fact, a change in US tax code that is far too boring for me to explain here, that happened in 1988, led to an overwhelming flood of donations in 1987 because people would no longer be able to write off donations in the same way. The next year, thrift stores were literally posting signs turning away donations because there was far too much to process or house. Like it just was not working. And so some people then had to wait until the next year to get rid of their stuff, but with a far lower write off. Furthermore, clothes were continuing to be shipped overseas to the global south and Europe. And American secondhand clothes were becoming more and more popular in Europe in the 80s. According to the New York Times, the popularity of American styles in Paris is hardly new. First came le blue jeans, then the university sweatshirt craze hit next. A passion for Cub Scout uniforms in inexplicably overcame the French.
- [66:16]
Kim
Interesting.
- [66:17]
Amanda
I know these are all news to me, but only in the past year or so have Parisians begun wearing used American clothes. They talked to a secondhand seller of the name maurice, as in Mr. Maurice, and he says, during the Vietnam War, no one wanted to look like an American. Then in the 70s, the dollar fell and the French started going to the us. They fell in love with the easygoingness of the States and that's what the clothes represent. His partner, Patrick Brieg agrees. Europeans are naturally uptight. It is somehow easier for them to be themselves in American clothes. But there are also More pragmatic explanations for the fact that the French are dressing up in old American clothes. Used clothing prices are low compared with the price of clothes in France. $35 for a good quality man's shirt, for example, and a bargain compared to the cost of the trendy American copies with imitation American labels that French manufacturers are turning out. So they were making their own copies of secondhand stuff even in France. It's not just Americans who do this dumb stuff, okay? Enthusiasts say that American clothes are better made than French and last longer used or not. Even when French manufacturers buy the denim from the US the jeans wear out faster than American jeans, said Gaston Cursenti, a wholesale sailor. Mr. Carcenti is amazed at the condition of the American clothes he receives. Some look as if they've never been worn, he says with approval, leaning on one of hundreds of burlap wrapped bales in his Rue Pain warehouse. So I thought that was really interesting that people would have been embarrassed to wear American clothes during the Vietnam War. Bad, bad PR look for the, for the United States, right? But now they're like, oh, I want to get into American culture. And we know that the French, French, they are like iconic, like, known in high regard for being this, like, epicenter of some of the most stylish stuff you can find in the world. And now they're like, yeah, we'll take some American clothes. I would love to know what they were wearing.
- [68:21]
Kim
I mean, Cub Scout uniforms, I guess.
- [68:24]
Amanda
I guess I'm just kidding.
- [68:25]
Kim
Probably the same stuff like the Benetton and the, you know, Gloria Vanderbilt and the Calvin Klein jeans. You know, all that stuff. I probably wanted that.
- [68:33]
C
I don't know.
- [68:34]
Kim
I actually don't. I don't know.
- [68:35]
Amanda
I don't know either. If you were there at the time, let us know. Okay, well, let's transition into the 1990s. So where were we economically? Well, the economy is still bad. In fact, I think that's just something we say from now on about every decade. In fact, in the early 90s, the US is in a big old recession. We see more and more conversation about the shrinking of the middle class class as the country feels the hangover of all of the pro business, anti people policies of the 1980s. The conspicuous consumption of the 80s is straight up embarrassing. But people do still care about brands, just different brands, right? And like, if you were to show up in like a Maserati or something with like big shoulder pads and huge earrings and all of the like iconic 80 looks, people would shun you just as much as if is if you had showed up in like a Mr. Furley jumpsuit in 1982. Right. People are just like, get that out of here. That is embarrassing. So maybe the 70s and the 80s were kind of like the most embarrassing decades to people. I don't know. They're very different, which I think is really interesting. But yet they aged poorly, but came back later and mortified tons of parents when they did. Interestingly enough, in the 90s, thrifting isn't as big for the general adult population, despite this economic situation, which I think is interesting because it was still pretty relevant in the 80s. It's interesting also because retail is not having a great time. A 1995 article from the San Francisco examiner says it pretty bluntly. 90s have been rough on retail. Retail sales for the state of California as a whole during the first four years rose a pathetic 3% total. Total subtract 7 percentage points for population growth and that gain evaporates into a 4% decline in per capita sales. Basically retail was shrinking. And while this was data for California, it was really indicative of retail for the entire country. But in the 1980s, you know, while in the 1980s, people looking for affordable brand new clothes had only two options. Basically catch a sale at the mall or shop secondhand. In the late 90s, I mean the late 80s and early 90s, a new group of players emerged in a much bigger way. One was Walmart. Right? The first Walmart I've ever been to opened in the early 90s near my town, where I grew up. I don't know, did you guys have Walmart in Wisconsin back then?
- [71:10]
Kim
Oh my gosh, that's a good question. I, I actually don't remember. We weren't a huge Walmart going cruise. We definitely had Kmart.
- [71:20]
Amanda
We had Kmart too. And then Walmart showed up and basically squashed Kmart. Like we were always at Kmart. That's where we went to buy household supplies and stuff. But yeah, then Walmart came and it was like the whole town was ready to go to Walmart. It was how fast it shut down. Kmart is pretty wild to me. We also had the emergence of Costco and Sam's Club, which, you know, are these clubs that you join. I have a Costco membership even now. Now. And you go buy things in bulk there. But you can also buy name brand clothes. You know, you could buy yourself some Adidas track pants or some sort of like Eddie Bauer pullover, that kind of thing, like name brand at a lower price and then off price stores like TJ Maxx, Marshalls and Ross really blew up. TJX, which is the parent company of TJ Maxx, was on a roll in the 1990s, buying Marshall, launching home goods and opening new stores all over the US Today, these stores are primarily stocked with goods that are made especially for them that aren't really that great. But back then they really were scooping up closeouts from brands and department stores. Especially as the recession continued to impact regular retail sales. You could get some smoking hot deals at TJ Maxx. Also in this time period, outlet malls begin to just like blow up, up and pop up everywhere. In the late 80s and through the 1990s, before E commerce comes on the scene ruining everyone's dreams, we see outlet malls popping up all over the United States. And many chains find them to be an exceptional means of liquidating excess product at a decent margin. And this is when you could go to an outlet mall and really buy stuff that was like closeout or excess and get a good deal. Now most outlet malls are just selling you stuff that they made to sell at the outlet mall. So this is like the golden era of sort of off price. And so the brand focused mainstream adult shopper had an easy way to find affordable clothes without thrifting. And the reality is that no matter how many of us, how all of us feel who are listening to this, the majority of people are always going to vote for something new over secondhand. There's just a lot of stigma attached to secondhand items. And suddenly we have all these retailers popping up who are giving you low, low prices on name brand goods. Can't resist it. I don't know if you ever had to go with the whole family to the outlet mall, but man, my grandma loves an outlet mall. And we would go for like a whole day.
- [73:58]
Kim
We did go. We would go. I just not. It wasn't constant. We would go to a couple times, but you'd always kind of find something that you regretted.
- [74:09]
Amanda
We in Pennsylvania, there were two major places for outlet shopping. They were both pretty far from where I lived and one was in Reading, Pennsylvania where a lot of like, well, it was like VF Vanity Fair had a humongous outlet center where they had Lee jeans and some other denim brands. They had, I think they had Wrangler too. They had all kinds of bras and nightgowns and other brands. They had like Eastport backpacks or whatever. So much stuff. And so we would have to go school shopping with my grandma there and I'd be so pissed off all day because one, it was so boring. And two, this is just a personal problem because my middle name is Lee. I just, like, had a mental block to wearing Lee jeans.
- [74:55]
Kim
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [74:56]
Amanda
And it was such a boring, no frills situation. And people would be showing up by, like, the bus load and you had to bring a picnic lunch and eat outside. This is like true outlet life, right?
- [75:08]
Kim
No, thank you.
- [75:08]
Amanda
Right, exactly. And then later, like, they opened a massive sort of compound of outlet malls in Lancaster county, actually not too far from where I lived before moving to Austin. And that was another one where, like, you go there and all day you just tromp from store to store. And like, as a kid, you're just like, I really don't care. But man, my grandma just loved it and be like, make a day of it, you know, go eat lunch at Bob Evans. Anyway, this customer who was sort of like, I don't want to shop at thrift stores. I'm going to go to outlets and TJ Maxx and stuff also felt okay shopping at a consignment shop, which for those of you who are unfamiliar, that is basically like, you bring in your clothes, the store determines what they're going to take from you, and they determine the price they're going to sell for. And when it sells, you get paid. If it doesn't sell, you got to come take your stuff and you don't get any money. Right. So these stores are very picky about what they take. It's not a donation situation. People loved this in the 90s and it, like, really blew up. And we actually saw, like, frank franchises and chains developing based on this concept. People liked it because it gave them the opportunity to get some cash for their unwanted stuff, which you might remember was happening in the 1970s as well. Back then, people were using yard sales and flea markets as a means of making some cash off of things they didn't want anymore. But consignment stores were easier and the seller might make more money. Many of these shops provided a more boutique peak like curated experience. And the country as a whole saw strong sales growth in this particular type of retail throughout the 90s. From a 1991 New York Times article called the Shops Where Recession and Recycling Meet. Which, by the way, I'm going to tell you, this implies that there's some ecological, like, environmental spin on wearing secondhand clothes. And I barely saw that coming up. Even in the 90s, even as we were all getting recycling fever, people weren't thinking about it in terms of clothes recession and recycle. Those words are changing the way a lot of people shop. The owners of the stores that sell previously owned merchandise, for example, say they are seeing a lot of new customers seeking bargains in this form of recycled goods. Mind you, these are not dowdy thrift shops, but resale establishments with names like instant replay, elegance 2. I don't know about elegance 1, the clothesline and Play It Again, where shoppers pick up pre owned clothes and children's toys for a fraction of their original cost. We've always catered to the woman who describes herself as having champagne tastes and a beer pocketbook. This is me, I guess, said Florence Calvin, one of the owners of Instant Replay in Harrison. And now with the recession, there are a lot of more people in that category, especially working women. They have to look smart on the job. Lately we've been seeing a lot of young women who come in desperate for something to wear on an important job interview. Interview. So, you know, here we are, it's the 90s. We see that the mainstream sort of customer base for thrift stores has kind of gone in these other directions. And so you're kind of like, oh, does that mean that, like, people stopped thrift shopping? Except for me and Kim, apparently no. Because secondhand, specifically vintage and thrifting was getting its own huge shot in the arm in a big mainstream way during the 90s, with young people and the young of heart being swept up into the alternative subculture thanks to mtv, Nirvana, Zine, Culture, Sassy Magazine and so much more. Apparently also because of church youth groups. I had no idea.
- [78:45]
Kim
Yes.
- [78:47]
Amanda
The irony of all of this alternative stuff being a subculture is that it was actually a massive cultural phenomenon that inspired. Inspired multitudes. We're talking millions of people. It wasn't just some tiny niche interest. Although I have this mortifying memory of being in 10th grade and my teacher, my economics teacher asking me what kind of music I listened to and he said alternative. And he. And he thought I meant I was gay. And I like. And then he's like, oh, I had no idea. Like you were, you were gay. And I got so embarrassed because everybody was like, oh, yeah, we knew it. And I was like, no, I mean like alternative music, you know. Anyway, he was thinking alternative lifestyles, I guess. I don't know.
- [79:33]
Kim
That is a kind of crazy story.
- [79:36]
Amanda
I know, I know.
- [79:37]
Kim
Like you're kind of outed in economics class. In economics class, yeah. Anyway, Also during the 90s, that would have been an absolutely huge, huge deal and giant trigger, I'm sure for you whether or not you were in the closet.
- [79:52]
Amanda
Right? Exactly, exactly. But this, it was this whole like alternative, it was like a tsunami, a cultural tsunami, because it was major label albums, alternative radio stations that were like. In the small town where I grew up, we had an alternative radio station in the county, magazine scenes, movies, you name it. Alternative. And it's sub genres of grunge, riot, grrrl, kinder, horror, rave culture, industrial music, skating, etc. They were just the counterpart of the mainstream culture rather than some tiny group of weirdos. Like this is not unlike the aughts where we have that like mainstream raunch culture and then we have the hipsters and it's like really this like 50, 50 divide in, in terms of trends. Right. We're hopefully going to do an entire miniseries on the 90s at some point this year. I know many of you have asked for it and it certainly is a very fascinating time the more you dig into it. So for this episode's purposes, we're just going to talk about some of the cultural icons that made thrifting and vintage an aspirational lifestyle and then basically a way of life for many young people in the 90s. And not just a few people. Like so many, so many people. I think it's like as a teenager I wanted to think that like I was one of only a few select, special people who were into this stuff. But I am able to say as an adult, as much as it pains me that so were many, many other people. Yeah, exactly. So first off was Sassy magazine, which I was obsessed with. I don't know. Did you subscribe to this magazine? Get a lot of contact with it?
- [81:33]
Kim
Not, not as much as I would have liked to.
- [81:36]
Amanda
I. It just started showing up at my house and I think it's because I subscribed to so many other teenage magazines and then I just like subscribed to this one. I probably asked my grandma for the 20 bucks or something. And many people, including myself, viewed Sassy as a cool little independent magazine. But the fact of the matter is that it was a huge mainstream teen publication being sent out to millions of households every year. Maybe it flew a little too close to the sun and that's why it ended so fast. But lots of people were seeing it. I could talk about sassy for about 100 years, but we're, we're just here to talk about secondhand clothing. And unlike its stodgy competitors YM and Seventeen, Sassy used a mixture of vintage, high end and accessible brands in its editorial. It was the only teen magazine that was doing it at that point. Although for sure, at the very least, 17 followed afterwards. YM was still trying to get teenage girls to wear blazers. Sassy really reinforced some of the sort of, like, uniforms of the 90s alternative girl. These are all exactly what Kim and I were wearing. There was the vintage ringer tee with flared jeans, right?
- [82:55]
Kim
100%.
- [82:56]
Amanda
These jeans could be bought new, or they could be used Levi's, the slip dress, or polyester vintage dress with doc martens. These 70s polyester collared shirts and maxi skirt. The skirt would most likely be new, but the shirt could be vintage, or it could come from Delia's vintage teddy bear coats paired with, like, homecoming dresses. A tee with a plaid skirt, either could be vintage. There's a lot of lingerie dressing, always footwear that wouldn't be considered, like, traditionally feminine, you know, unless it was, like, maybe a Mary Jane. But otherwise, lots of boots and sneakers here. And Chloe Sevignier, another 90s icon, began as a model and then an intern at Sassy. She told Sassy in 1992, I never miss a tag sale or walk past a thrift shop without going in. You can always get good, cheap stuff that no one else will have. And I never throw anything away. You never know when you'll be in the mood to wear something.
- [83:57]
Kim
And look at her long hair.
- [83:59]
Amanda
Oh, it's wild, right? We have some pictures here. There's one point where I feel like she's wearing a bag on her head. I can't figure out what's happening here. It's not that maybe I wouldn't adopt that part of her aesthetic, but looks just as relevant now. You imagine seeing this and reading her words and seeing what she's wearing, wearing as like a teenager, and you're like, I'm gonna get into this too. And this is like, so many tweens and teens of this era being like, oh, wow, what I can. I can afford to buy into this, you know? Of course, Kurt and Courtney, as in Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love, were basically the king and queen of thrifted clothing in the 90s, setting everyone off on a search for the perfect vintage fuzzy cardigan, you know, that Kurt would wear. And the ideal dress with the Peter Pan collar to emulate Courtney's kinder horror aesthet. Both were very vocal about their love and appreciation for thrifting as a treasure hunt of sorts. And I'm actually gonna put some. A little audio clip in here from Kurt Cobain talking about why he loves thrifting. You know the saying that you can't buy happiness?
- [85:06]
Kim
You think that's true?
- [85:09]
C
Well, yeah, you can't buy happiness. I mean, that made me happy for a little while, but I mean, I was just probably almost as happy, you know, I don't know. I used to. I look back on going to secondhand stores and stuff like that and finding a little treasure like that, and that actually meant more to me because it was, it was more of a stab in the dark in a way, you know, because you didn't know if you're going to be able to afford it and you don't know what, what you're really looking for. And when you find it, it's more special to you rather than, you know, having a thousand dollars and going into a store like that, just buying the whole store, you know, it's not as, it's not as special.
- [85:52]
Amanda
Courtney herself told rolling stone in 1994 in a particularly brutal interview called Courtney Love My Life Without Kurt. Don't read it if you're feeling remotely emo today. She talked about why she chose the among many other things in this article, why she chose the Kinder Whore aesthetic of barrettes, Mary Janes and knee socks. She said, I would like to think in my heart of hearts that I'm changing some psychosexual aspects of rock music, not that I'm so desirable. I didn't do the Kinder Whore thing because I thought I was so hot. When I see the look used to make one more appealing. When I see a 14 year old girl in a fanzine acting like she's 9, it pisses me off. When I started it, it was a whatever happened to Baby Jane thing. My angle was. I know. Then again, my friend Joe pointed out this out to me. Ever since he'd known me, I'd had little baby teacups and blocks and toys. Maybe it had to do with never having patent leather shoes, never being allowed to wear a dress, never having gender specific dolls. I absolutely insisted on taking ballet lessons when I was young, which caused a big, big fight in our house. Nothing was gender specific. And I will just tell you that I wore all of the things that we talked about earlier. Earlier, like all of those different looks. But my favorite was to try to dress like Courtie Love. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
- [87:11]
Kim
I do remember listening to I think it's you're wrong about podcast or some podcast. I don't know, maybe it was even our podcast. We were talking about how Courtney loves kinder horse dialect. She came out of her roommate who had adopted. Yes. Who adopted it first.
- [87:26]
Amanda
Yes, that's right. That's right. And they're like, hate each other.
- [87:29]
Kim
Yeah. It was this big trend in that small niche group of people.
- [87:35]
Amanda
Yes, that's cool. Cat. Of Babes in Toyland, in case any of you are wondering. And, yeah, they, like.
- [87:39]
Kim
So did it come from our podcast?
- [87:41]
Amanda
I don't think it did, but maybe it did. I don't know. I mean, I knew that, so there's a chance I said it on here.
- [87:47]
Kim
We. I mean, we live in a bubble and we probably listen and digest the same thing.
- [87:51]
Amanda
Yeah. And I was disappointed to hear that they kind of like, low key, still hate each other many, many years later. But.
- [87:59]
Kim
Well, I mean, she didn't even give her any credit in this whole Rolling Stone article. I'd be pissed, too.
- [88:05]
Amanda
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Sure. But yeah, I mean, I loved Babes in Toyland as well, and I actually thought they did a better job of this aesthetic. So there you go. But definitely, like, this is a. An aesthetic that was very based in vintage because, like, you couldn't find contemporary dresses that look like what they were wearing. Like, you had to get to the thrift store and hope that you were short enough to fit into the smallest clothes. The alternative subculture embraced thrifting and secondhand clothing as a means of differentiating itself from the mainstream, with its malls full of gaps and limiteds. Like, that's what Kurt and Courtney were doing. That's to a certain extent what Sassy was talking about. Although they still had ads for all of these stores in the pages. But this whole subculture saw thrifting not only as an anti capitalist statement, but also a way of curating a unique personal style. And when I was talking about this with Dustin yesterday, he told me, and this was an interesting perspective to hear, that the Beastie Boys were his gateway into thrifting, particularly during the check your head era, when he saw a House of Style interview where they talked about their love of thrifting and collecting clothing, much in the same way they collected records, always looking for something unique and special, even if those finds might be few and far between. And I was gonna play the audio from that interview, which I watched in its full length twice. I am not gonna subject you to all of that because it is so awkward. Awkward that, like, it's painful to watch. They're being like shitty young boys.
- [89:40]
Kim
Yeah.
- [89:42]
Amanda
But I did like where they were talking about, like, we wear what we love and much in the same way we're Always looking for, like, that special record. That's how we feel about what we wear. And that's why we shop a lot of secondhand. That's why we thrift.
- [89:54]
Kim
I mean, that's. Actually, I was glad that you brought that up because I was gonna mention it if you didn't, because I. I do remember that a lot of skater boys in our high school wore these huge over oversized pants, and you couldn't really get them at the store. They'd have to go to the Goodwill to find the clothes. And it kind of inspired a lot of. A lot of. A lot of people to go and thrift, at least in my high school.
- [90:17]
Amanda
Oh, yeah, same thing at my school. I also was really into. And I would find a lot of these at Rubens into old pajamas, like the full, like, button up, like, set with the top and the bottoms that were men's, and those were often really big. For me, the pants would be huge. And so what I would. Would do is I would get them and I would safety pin the waist as much as possible. It take like, 20 safety pins to get them to stay on my waist. And then they would be these, like, huge, oversized, like, silky pants within the pajama shirt. And I felt very cool. Like, put that with, like, a lunchbox.
- [90:49]
Kim
That's a good look.
- [90:50]
Amanda
Lunchbox purse. You got to look, right? And, you know, then they're like 25 cents or less, because I don't even think they were a full pound. But definitely a lot of the people I knew who were really into oversized, they started at the thrift store and, like, made them work from there.
- [91:05]
Kim
Yeah, you have to get like, large oversized khakis, like, like, like 10 sizes too big.
- [91:10]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then hope that someone would help you straighten them out. Right. They wouldn't be just falling off of you. There's a Mr. Porter essay about the beasties as fashion icons, and it describes the check your head era as being kind of like the best period for them. It says, style wise, these were the classic years. Ski hats, workwear, dead stock Adidas, and the occasional bit of thrift store flair, such as the double knit Irishman polo Mr. Horowitz wears under a parka in the pass the mic video. They also wore a lot of flannel, aligning circumstantially with rock fashion trends of the moment. Mr. Yauck in the film says derisively to a reporter, you must be talking about grunge. And if you haven't picked up already, the alternative aesthetic of the 90s focused on the 60s and the 70s, particularly the 70s. But dance music was really leaning into the 1960s with delight and Betty Boo, right. I could look at pictures of Lady Miss Kier of Delight, like all day long. She really focused on the psychedelic side of 60s fashion with poochie prints and architectural John Fluvag shoes and.
- [92:23]
Kim
Oh, I had John Fluvag.
- [92:25]
Amanda
This was like the time, right? And like no one was doing this. Like this is stunning to me even now. It's just so good. And Betty Boo was not quite as big as Delight, but I definitely every once in a while will get her one song which is like Betty Boo, Betty Boo is gonna do. I don't know if you ever had to dance that at a school dance, but I always got songs stuck in my head sometimes. And she had a more like Mary Kwan, Avengers kind of look with a hint of outer space. I feel like somehow she directly influences Jamiroquai, but I don't exactly know the connecting piece there, but it feels like Jamiroquai is the next step. It kind of looks like it, right?
- [93:07]
Kim
It's like futuristic.
- [93:08]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah.
- [93:09]
Kim
60S, 90s.
- [93:11]
Amanda
It's so good. It's so good. And on the screen we had Parker Posey, the it Girl of indie film. I mean, she was in all the best movies including Party Girl Daisy. Hello. Yeah, exactly. Was great. That was really on Point, Dazed and Confused and House of Yes. I read this delightful New York Times profile of her from 1997 where. Which you should absolutely read, and it's a little confusing is that it kind of seems like it was written by her about herself in the third person. Unless there's a typo in the byline, I can't figure it out. So you all read and get back to me and tell me if she wrote that or someone else did. But the whole article is about her wardrobe and it is so fun to read, to just envision all the things she was wearing and owning like and thinking about. Especially in the context of Party Girl, which man repeller a few years ago called like the most important fashion film of all time or something. And I was like, you know, I might be on board there. Or at least it's one of them for sure. So here's what she says or someone says in this article. As a result, the 28 year old actress's entire wardrobe consists of costumes, clothes that inspired her own on screen, wardrobes, clothes inspired by the roles and clothes bought in the conviction that life is a dress up ball. Each piece comes with a tale. Her Tastes run to thrift store. Fabulous that the origin of an orange velvet jacket got this from a woman on Portobello Road. She said, referring to the must stop street in London for anyone who loves vintage clothing. She has blonde bangs and is in her 50s. These, I think. As she opened a giant wooden wardrobe, one of three crammed into her tiny bedroom. Sartorial history tumbled out yellow chiffon, pink sequins, silk shirts and brocade. They filled the wardrobe like an overstuffed chair. The bottom was covered with shoes, blue Moroccan style slippers, a pair of heels, spray painted bright blue Chanel white shrimping boots, Italian leather slip ons, and dozens of vintage pumps. A side closet was filled with pants, new pants, old pan men's pants, army pants, pajama pants, lots of Levi's. Just like reading about this was like delicious. Like I can't explain it, but I just really like pushed some buttons for me. So yeah, if you haven't seen Party Girl, I do feel that that film holds up and you should go give it a watch on television. We had characters that weren't technically wearing secondhand clothing, at least as far as we know, but they embodied that secondhand chic look of mixing eras, prints and patterns into a unique look. We had Blossom and we had Clarissa of Clarissa Explains It.
- [95:50]
Kim
Yeah, huh.
- [95:51]
Amanda
Their audiences were probably younger, but so basically we end up with tweens, teens and 20 somethings leaning into secondhand shopping because all of their heroes and icons are doing it, whether it's Courtney, Blossom, Parker, Drew, or anyone that could be found within the pages of Sassy. And so everyone wants that look, but maybe they can't get to a thrift store or they don't know where to begin. So don't worry, retailers and designers are happy to help. We've got Delia as an alloy, definitely hitting like the 70s shirts and the little dresses. You know, we've got Urban Outfitters where I personally worked in the store in, in the West Village in the late 90s, totally selling only copies of vintage clothes, like direct copies, but also having a huge. It was like 10, 12ft long all the way up, floor to ceiling wall of secondhand Levi's that I my first shift there. They made me refold the whole thing and then refold it all again because I didn't do a good job and I would spend a lot of time folding Levi's. That was downstairs. Upstairs we had a whole wall of secondhand corduroys and we did have like a mix of vintage and new, but most of the clothes were, like, just on point copies of old clothes. There was another store that was in my mall growing up called Merry Go Round that kind of leaned into more of the, like, Lady Miss Keir Betty Boo kind of, like,'60s aesthetic, along with other more club clothes. Even department stores were like, hey, guess what? Sure, we have grunge clothes, too. I included this ad for Kmart, which you may have seen before, Kim, but it makes me laugh every time. It's just like the circular that would come in the newspaper. And it's. It's embarrassing.
- [97:39]
Kim
It's embarrassing.
- [97:40]
Amanda
Get into grunge. And there are four people, three of whom, you know, they got a little. They've got the grunge look. And then there's a man not wearing a shirt with, like, wet hair or something. It's so crazy.
- [97:59]
Kim
I mean. And the woman on the left hand doesn't look like she's ever worn anything.
- [98:03]
Amanda
Grunge in her entire life. Um, it's so funny. We will definitely share this on Instagram. This ad makes me, like, laugh, cry every time I see it. And what's interesting is that, like, these clothes were not that cheap. Like, this baby doll dress is $29. The peasant style dress is $39. These are, like, more expensive than Shein. But why did they put this topless guy with red hair? I just don't understand it. If anyone knows.
- [98:35]
Kim
And they. I don't think they. I wonder if they just weren't selling the jeans and they were like, well, we gotta have a dude. He something like, we need to candy.
- [98:43]
Amanda
So embarrassed.
- [98:45]
Kim
Anyway, like I said, but he's not for sale, Amanda. There's nothing about him for sale in this.
- [98:50]
Amanda
It's so funny, so weird. The thing about grunge was it began as musicians, artists, and scenesters in the Pacific Northwest, staying warm while having their own unique style. They definitely never envisioned a day where a topless man would shamefully be in a Kmart ad. You know, they were wearing, like, flannels and tees and long underwear and destroyed jeans, vintage dresses, boots, sneakers. Like, all easily thrifted and very authentic. And then here is Kmart. And they weren't the only one. Like, I remember JCPenney was really into this era too. Like, really selling us this stuff. Anybody who was seeing the success that Delia's was having was like, we gotta get into this, right? Everyone wants to buy in on a cultural moment. And everyone wanted to be a part of grunge and an alternative music. And in that situation, when everybody wants to be a Part of it, someone is going to pop up and make a new version of it. We saw that with raccoon coats. We saw that with 50s clothes in the 80s, and now we were seeing it with 70s clothes and grunge in the 90s. So no conversation about secondhand and grunge and the alternative subculture and the influence that had on the fashion. The fashion industry as a whole is complete without talking about Marc Jacobs disastrous, infamous genius. You decide. 1993 Grunge collection for Perry Ellis, which, by the way, I think of Perry Ellis, is like a grandpa brand. So the fact that this was for Perry Ellis, it's like golfing. Yeah, exactly like. It's so wild. I'm gonna tell you this. This whole collection was universally adorable joke, a disaster. Pissed people off. There were a lot of strong feelings about it. But around between, like, 2010 and 2015, many years later, people started to be like, that was pretty good. I think it might have been genius. Right? So a lot. There's a lot of press in this century about this collection from 1993. I'll tell you. I was looking at photos, and I was like, yeah, I'd wear all this. Like, I like it. It looks really good. But I can see why it just enraged and inflamed people and made people make jokes about it.
- [101:11]
Kim
Yes, I can see that too, 100%.
- [101:13]
Amanda
There's a dazed piece that really goes into, like, what happened. You should go read it. There's a lot more that I'm gonna share. It says Marc Jacobs, Spring Summer 1993 show for Perry Ellis is the stuff of fashion legend. After being hired as creative director for the Sportswear brand in 1988, Jacobs politely did a few seasons of easy American elegance before paying homage to Seattle's grunge scene with the landmark collection, which was sent out on November 3, 1992. $2 secondhand flannel shirts were transformed into plaid printed silks. Lumberjack thermals were reimagined in cashmere, and Kurt Cobain's floral granny dress was turned into floaty chiffon worn with untied DMS or duchess satin Converse. Backstage, Sonic Youth were shooting their video for Sugar Cane starring a very young Chloe Sevigne. It was a wait backstage. Yes, backstage. This is like, man, talk about learning something new every day. They shot the video backstage for the show. I know. Pretty wild.
- [102:20]
Kim
It's.
- [102:20]
Amanda
It was a seminal moment. Not just because that video was being filmed there. From Christy Turlington opening the show as L7's Pretend We're Dead, blasted out behind her to Kristen McManamy and Kate Moss, closing in matching beanies and layers of pastel knits and plaid. That's the way beautiful girls look today, Jacobs told the New York Times in February 1993. They look a little bit unconcerned about fashion. Womenswear Daily hailed Jacobs as the guru of grunge, which I'm sure went well, right? But the suits at Perry Ellis didn't really get the finer points of bare midriffs and shirts tied haphazardly around the waist. Shortly after picking up the CFDA Designer of the Year award in January 1993, Jacobs was dropped by Perry Ellis, and production on the collection was killed.
- [103:13]
Kim
Do you think it even performed? Like, if buyers even bought it, they probably.
- [103:18]
Amanda
But the thing is, like, if they redid this now, if they reissued it, it would sell out immediately. Right? It's so good. Jacobs, Marc Jacobs, that is, actually sent a box of the collection to Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love because he admired them so much, and both were just horrified. In 2010, Courtney told Women's Wear Daily, do you know what we did with it? We burned it. We were pumped. We don't do that kind of thing. Jacobs was simultaneously laughed at and criticized, but he stands by that collection. In 2011, he said there was so much more to it than making plaid shirts and flowing silk dresses. It wasn't about that. It was about a sensibility and also about a dismissal of everything that one was told was beautiful, correct, glamorous, and sexy. I loved that it represented a newness. I think that's how people dress. I think that moment hasn't passed. It's morphed into different things, but it really hasn't passed. I did so much other reading about this. Like I said, In 2000, 2015, 2010, in that era, people were like, oh, shit, we might have been wrong. That was like, the best collection that's ever come out. But I, as I did all this reading and, you know, like, in this century, lots of people reached out to talk to him. There were interviews from back then, too. I can say, like, when I read about this in the 90s, I was like, what an asshole. Co opting our culture and turning into, like, silk sneakers and stuff like this. But I realize now that he wasn't looking to cash in on grunge. He was reflecting a particular era and a new approach to beauty and fashion. Like, this was really genuine for him, and him really trying to make a leap forward. More and more fashion people, like I said, were coming around to that show and realizing that it may have been a stroke of genius, misunderstood at the time, but now fully more relevant in this century. There's another great piece from the Cut called Changing My Mind about Marc Jacobs grunge collection. You should all go read it. It also includes a lot of some of the best looks from that show. It explains how the grunge show wasn't the first time people were appalled by a collection that pulled from a change, like a big cultural change, change in personal style and women's ownership of what they wore. You can read the article for more detail, but they cite a YSL show in the 70s as being like another example of that. And in this article, Jacobs remembered. I was so pleased with that show. And because it did get a lot of attention and it did look younger and fresher, I said, I'm going to do what I feel is right. And that's how grunge started. I joked about it at the time, but I had designing diarrhea. I just couldn't and stop. The ideas came from everywhere, Whether it was Corinne's pictures or David Sims or Jurgen Teller's, or meeting Helena Christensen for the first time, seeing her in a shawl over a nightgown with a pair of Birkenstocks, or it was my friend Ellen running around in pajamas and Converse with a bra. I was like, oh, my God, this is all pointing to the same thing. By the mid-90s, other designers, notably Muchia Prada, were questioning notions of beauty in new and unsettling ways. And going without makeup fit with the decade. Minimalist fashion. But at the time, Jacob thinks now, and in the environment of 7th Avenue, in the environment of 7th Avenue, grunge exposed fear. That was the main reason, he said, people turned the show into a punching bag. I'll use Kate Moss as an example, he said. A woman buying designer clothes can't go to go to a store and put on a slip with Converse sneakers and have dirty hair and no makeup. A woman of a certain fashion education can't achieve Kate's look. It went against everything that one could aspire to. I mean, you could go to a beauty parlor and look like Joan Collins, or you could say, I want to look like Cindy Crawford or have my hair cut like Linda Evangelista. But you couldn't go into a shop and say, I want a child's Victorian dress that looks torn. I think that's where the fear comes from. I think it's safe to say that it also comes from new things of which fashion writers are Oddly intemperate. It's always so easy to look at the next thing and be part of the past thing, said Jacobs, and say, that doesn't work. It doesn't tick our boxes. So what do you think of it? Do you think that the world just wasn't ready for it? That it just wasn't like something the industry can make a lot of money off of? Or was it just so cheesy? Oh, it's complicated, right?
- [107:48]
Kim
It's complicated. It feels, I mean, because it, you know, it wasn't like something that, that he kind of slid into. It's something that he just dropped on everyone. And the fact that it was tied to Perry Ellis, which is like a.
- [107:59]
Amanda
Giant American sports company.
- [108:01]
Kim
I know it makes a lot of sense. For some reason I forgot that it was a Perry Ellis. I thought it was a Jacobs collection. And it makes so much more sense as like a personal taste level there. But once you attach Perry Ellis to it, it feels like it's like a performative anti classist. I don't know, it just, it seems.
- [108:23]
Amanda
It's complicated.
- [108:24]
Kim
It's complicated.
- [108:26]
Amanda
I think that he maybe had good intention, but when you really look at. Kind of doesn't add up, right?
- [108:33]
Kim
Like, I mean, it's a good PR move for him. I mean, it made him blow up.
- [108:38]
Amanda
Definitely. I mean, we're still talking about it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And he got his own line eventually, basically. Like, if you're worried about Marc Jacobs, because that name doesn't sound. I believe he went on to do to Louis Vuitton next and then eventually had his own line for a long time that we just constantly copied it at Urban Outfitters every year.
- [108:56]
Kim
I do have something to add though, about the 90s that I do remember in regards to buying vintage fashion and the whole trend, which was ebay, I would go on ebay. And this was kind of like the beginning of like the ebay was the late 90s, I guess. And there would be these little stores, you could follow the stores and they all typed with the uppercut. Uppercase, Lowercase. Like kind of odd. Like, you know, I'm talking about.
- [109:25]
Amanda
Yeah, no, I do know what you're talking about. Yeah. Like Delia's.
- [109:30]
Kim
Yes. And yes. And I was. I would pretty much only shop from them if they had the uppercase, lowercase thing going on because it meant that they knew what they were doing. And yeah, I love to troll ebay and kind of just explore what was on there.
- [109:43]
Amanda
Oh my God, me too. We'll definitely talk about ebay. More in the next episode. But, like, I was an early adopter of ebay also, and you could find so much cool stuff because especially in the late 90s, there still weren't that many people shopping there.
- [109:57]
Kim
Yeah.
- [109:57]
Amanda
And so, yeah, it would be more expensive than like going and buying it at, like, the Goodwill, but it was still really affordable. And you, like, you would find people that you liked and follow them and just only look at their auctions, basically. It was so good. And when I was reading about the Beastie Boys, they talked about how they also, in the late night, the 90s, got really into shopping on ebay.
- [110:19]
Kim
Oh, that's fascine.
- [110:21]
Amanda
Yeah, I know. And I mean, Dustin is the same way. We talk about it all the time. Like our love of ebay. I remember back then you'd have to, like, because there wasn't PayPal, you'd have to like, mail a money order or a check to pay for your stuff. It would take so long to get what you want. Like a month. Because you'd have to, okay, now I won. Now I have to go to the bank and get the money order. Now I gotta mail it, Then they have to deposit it, then they have to send it to me. Imagine if people had to wait like that. Now it just wouldn't. It's like a wild idea to anyone that they would have to. A money order. I mean, come on.
- [110:54]
Kim
A money order. Yes.
- [110:56]
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, definitely. When we get in next week's episode, we're going to talk about this century and like, this is when the Internet intersects with secondhand fashion. And a lot of people have a lot of mixed opinions about it. I was talking to another friend the other day and I was like, you know, in the early aughts, it was very common to be out drinking with a bunch of your hipster friends and someone to be like, fucking ebay is ruining thrifting. Because, like, everybody just goes there and gets stuff that sells it on ebay. And it's like, oh, man, my friend, wait. You just wait. There's more coming, you know. But definitely that was like a popular conversation topic of the era. Yeah, I guess that's all we really have on the 90s. We're to pick up next week. As we approach the end of this, of that century and get into this century, things are going to get weirder. Things are going to get bigger. People are going to get even more feelings about it. But I would say that it's not like more people are shopping secondhand now than they were in, say, the 80s. Or even the 90s. It's just in a different way. I know you have one more thing you would like to tell everybody, Kim, before we call at the end for this week.
- [112:17]
Kim
Yes. Thank you for listening all the way through to this and we're excited to keep going on, but I do want to remind everyone that we have a tip jar available on our Instagram profile. It's the underscore department. So if you got a couple dollars to give, you know, we highly encourage it. You know, we don't run ads or anything and we're kind of just doing this because we enjoy talking about trends and researching trends. So if you have a couple dollars, please throw em in the tip jar.
- [112:48]
Amanda
Seriously. Because in addition to, you know, doing a crazy amount of work for every episode, this week's episode was a 32 page term paper written by me. We also have expenses attached to creating the podcast and website hosting and podcast episode hosting. And like as I've said before, you start a podcast and you think you're just gonna throw it up on the Internet and it'll be free and it's turns out, oh no. There are many, many companies out there who are happy to take your money to allow you to have a podcast. So we don't expect you to pay us for our 32 page term papers. But if you wanted to chip in towards the other expenses, that would be amazing and we would very much appreciate it. All right, that's all we have this week. Love to hear from all of you what you think of the Marc Jacobs show. I still can't believe that anyone thought it would be a good idea to make like cashmere thermals and silk flannels. But I will say, show looks good.
- [113:42]
Kim
It does sound cozy. I mean, like, would not kick that out of bed.
- [113:48]
Amanda
Definitely not. But it is so on the opposite end of the spectrum of what grunge was that it. It is a. It's pretty wild. You know, I see why people got upset. But I also will say the outfits were really good. All right, well, we'll see you next week.
- [114:06]
Kim
Thank you.
- [114:07]
Amanda
Bye.
- [114:07]
Kim
Bye.
- [114:12]
Amanda
It.