REWIND: Why new sweaters are kinda garbage, with Dani of Picnicwear

Summary

---

Clotheshorse Episode 183: "REWIND: Why New Sweaters Are Kinda Garbage"

Host: Amanda Lee McCarty (she/they)
Guest: Dani (she/her) of Picnicwear
Date: October 19, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Clotheshorse dives deep into the declining quality of new sweaters, unraveling the layers of fast fashion, synthetic fibers, marketing, and consumer culture that have led us to a world where “sweaters are kinda garbage.” Amanda is joined by Dani, founder of Picnicwear, sweater designer, and slow fashion advocate. Together, they blend insider industry knowledge and personal experience to explore:

• Why sweater quality has eroded
• How design and buying processes breed "future garbage"
• What truly makes a sweater “luxury"
• Why simple answers ("just buy natural fibers") miss the mark
• Practical guidance for spotting quality sweaters
• The toll and triumphs of slow fashion advocacy

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Talk About Sweaters Now?

[00:18–11:37]

• Amanda and Dani reconnect after two years to address a surge of discourse (especially on TikTok and Reddit) lamenting clothing quality—especially sweaters.
• Recent Amanda Mull article (“You, Sweaters Are Garbage,” The Atlantic) sparked widespread interest.
• The sense that the public is finally hitting a “tipping point” in noticing the downgrading of clothing quality.
• “Clothes have been crappy for a long time,” says Amanda; the industry’s been waiting for customers to object.

2. Industry Real Talk: Trends vs. Timelessness

[04:32–07:22]

• Both note they seldom buy new clothes because what’s old but well-loved outlasts trend-driven items.
• "It’s the ones that were most attached to a trend at the time, that I ended up...selling on Poshmark or something." —Amanda [06:52]
• Stability in sweater design: despite trend cycles, the actual silhouettes and types haven’t changed much. Only materials and quality have.

3. Why Sweaters (and All Clothes) Got Worse

[10:32–28:50]

• Quality decline is the result of a relentless push for lower prices, leading to swapping out skilled labor and good materials for cheaper, synthetic alternatives.
• Price tag doesn’t indicate true quality. Expensive sweaters can be just as “garbage” as cheap ones—sometimes the markup just reflects better marketing, not better product.
• Memorable Quote: “You cannot spot quality, or lack thereof, by the price tag, because plenty of things that are expensive are the same as the lower price stuff. That’s part of their branding—that somehow their stuff is exceptional. And it’s not.” —Amanda [15:20]

4. The “Yum Factor” and Fiber Fakery

[29:18–39:22]

• Sweaters are often chosen for their sensory feel (“Hand feel wins every time”).
• Buyers and designers pass around samples, describing plastic-laden, synthetic yarns as “yummy,” “luxurious,” or “expensive-feeling,” even though it’s “basically plastic.”
• Memorable Moment: “You haven't lived until you’ve seen a bunch of adults sit around a table, passing around swatches, going ‘mmm, yummy, yum.’ … You’re like, y’all are rubbing plastic. … Oh, so good.” —Amanda [29:47]
• Even “luxury” sweaters are often made of polyester or acrylic blends.

5. Customer Blame and the Polyester Predicament

[31:26–39:22]

• Designers attempt to use more wool or natural fibers, but customers often reject them as “scratchy.”
• Plastic fibers are preferred for softness, loft, and low cost—what most shoppers implicitly “vote” for.
• Polyester is in ~65–70% of modern clothing; in sweaters, other synthetics like polyamide, nylon, and acrylic are often main ingredients.

6. Manufacturing Tricks and The Decline Spiral

[62:11–91:28]

• Insightful breakdown of how a promising, well-designed sample is continually “diluted” to hit price targets:
  • Swapping in cheaper yarns
  • Loosening knit tension (“lighter, loftier”—but more likely to pill or snag)
  • Removing details, reducing length, cropping sleeves, or turning styles into vests
  • Manufacturers chasing lower duties by tweaking fiber content
• “You do this for 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, and suddenly the sweaters that you get to buy are extra crappy because they are like a dilution of a dilution of a dilution.” —Amanda [90:58]

7. Trends: Born of Budget, Not Just Style

[83:06–85:58]

• Many “trends” emerge simply because they are cheaper to manufacture (e.g., sweater vests, cropped styles, sheer fabrics).
• “Do the trends start with the people, or do they start in the buying offices with what we can afford?” —Amanda [83:39]

8. No Magic Fiber, No Magic Fix

[46:09–56:03]

• Switching everything to “natural fibers” is not a panacea—would create new environmental crises (land, water, labor abuse).
• Increase in demand for natural materials would worsen labor conditions globally and still not justify current consumption rates.
• Quote to Remember: “There’s no magic fiber or fabric that lets us overconsume without repercussion. It all has a catch.” —Amanda [47:56]

9. The Real Solution: Buy Less, Buy Better

[97:37–118:42]

• Step 1: Ask yourself, “Do I really need a new sweater? How many do you truly need?”
• Step 2: When shopping, inspect the fiber content label (required by law), turn the garment inside out, scrutinize seams and construction.
• Reminder: Price is not a sure sign of quality. Higher prices often mean fancier marketing, not better clothes.
• Seek pieces that excite you for years—future vintage, not future garbage.

10. How to Spot Quality Sweaters

[97:37–104:52]

• Check the content label: if it’s a dense stew of synthetics (polyamide, acrylic, polyester) with trace amounts of wool or “alpaca," be wary.
• Don’t be fooled by greenwashing buzzwords (“responsible,” “conscious wool,” “imported”)—these are often used to make synthetic blends sound ethical.
• Look for mono-materials; multi-fiber blends are nearly impossible to recycle.

11. Supporting Slow Fashion & Small Business

[53:23–61:06], [130:34–135:29]

• Running indie slow-fashion brands is difficult, emotionally demanding, and rarely profitable.
• If you value small, ethical, local makers, support them with purchases or amplify their work.
• “Your small business owner friends are suffering, are really, really having a hard time. So if you’ve ever said ‘support small business,’ you gotta actually show your support every once in a while.” —Dani [56:05]
• Dani’s Picnicwear sweaters: 100% cotton, made from upcycled deadstock doll factory yarn—thoughtfully sourced, vibrantly colored, and designed for a long life.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Customers and Fiber Feel
  “Customers think they want wool, they want alpaca, they want natural fibers, but that is not actually what they will buy.” —Amanda [31:03]
• On Marketing Over Substance
  “You’re paying for that in that $29 garment. There doesn’t have to be much difference between the products themselves because you’re paying for other things too.” —Dani [14:23]
• On Trend Cycles and Shelf Life
  “If you do this for 5, 10, 20 years, suddenly the sweaters you get to buy are extra crappy because they’re a dilution of a dilution of a dilution.” —Amanda [90:58]
• On Greenwashing
  “What the fuck does ‘responsible’ mean? ...I’m responsible for doing the dishes in my house. That doesn’t make me...good at doing dishes.” —Dani [106:18]
• On Industry Burnout
  “I’m so tired of seeing small businesses, small shops, makers...say, like, sorry, I can’t do it anymore. It is so, so sad to me.” —Dani [56:05]

---

Practical Tips for Listeners

[97:45 onwards]

• Educate Yourself:
  Turn garments inside out—examine seams, finishes, and fiber content labels.
• Be Skeptical:
  Don’t trust price or marketing language (“responsible,” “imported,” “luxury”) as signs of real quality.
• Mono-Materials Matter:
  The fewer different fibers, the more recyclable—blends are landfill-bound.
• Buy Less, Buy Thoughtfully:
  Focus on well-made, timeless pieces you truly love—future vintage, not “future garbage.”
• Care Tips:
  Wash sweaters infrequently, by hand if possible, and always lay flat to dry.
• Support Small, Ethical Brands:
  Consider purchases from makers like Picnicwear; share and amplify their work even if you can't afford to buy immediately.

---

Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:18–11:37: Setting the stage—why sweaters are bad, and why people are noticing now.
• 31:03–39:22: The “Yum Factor” and how synthetic yarns seduced buyers and customers alike.
• 62:11–91:28: In-depth look at sample reviews, dilution, duties, and how trends are born from cost-cutting.
• 97:45–118:42: Step-by-step guidance on shopping for sweaters, with real-world examples.
• 130:34–135:29: Dani and Amanda on the importance (and exhaustion) of community and slow fashion advocacy.
• 120:06–127:04: Picnicwear’s sweater collection: cotton, color, and creative constraint.

---

Final Thoughts

Clotheshorse’s takedown of “garbage sweaters” is ultimately a call to meaningful, educated engagement with our clothes, the people who make them, and with the Earth. There’s no magic fiber and no shortcut to a better fashion industry—other than buying less, caring more, and supporting the people making a real difference.

---

Find Dani’s work: @picnicwear on Instagram
Follow Amanda & join the Clotheshorse community: @clotheshorsepodcast

“Your money is as powerful as your vote!” – Amanda

Transcript

[Amanda]

Welcome to Clothes Horse, the podcast that can say, like, listen, there's a lot of really horrible stuff happening in the world right now, and it's really hard to cope with it most days, but at least there is the comfort of soup, hot tea, and sweater season. And I am fully immersed in it right now. I'm your host, Amanda, and this is episode 183. My special guest this week is someone.

[Narrator/Announcer]

You all know and love.

[Amanda]

She's someone I also love and consider a leader in the slow fashion community. It's Dana Danny of Picnic Wear. Today she and I are going to talk all about why sweaters are so, well, not so great these days. Dani is the perfect person for this conversation because in addition to being a major sweater aficionado, she is also a sweater designer. And as I've mentioned in the past, certain categories like denim, activewear, and sweaters are very specific niches and areas of expertise within in the fashion industry. Like, if you start as a sweater designer, you kind of are always a sweater designer. Same thing if you do denim or what have you. They're very, very specific. Fortunately, I have also managed the sweater category at various different jobs. I have learned so much along the way, so I don't want to brag too much, but I kind of think we are the ideal pair to break down the decline of sweater quality during the fast fashion era. Now, we ended up talking for about two and a half hours because obviously there was a lot to talk about. There always is. These things are complicated. I edited this down to two hours. It was very hard because I obviously enjoy talking to Dani way too much. And, you know, I thought about splitting this into two episodes. Like, when we finished recording, I said to myself, this is going to be two episodes. But as I was listening and editing, it just didn't work that way. It felt incomplete when split in half. So today's entire episode will be our conversation. There'll be no audio essays this week, although, trust me, there will be plenty next week because I received a lot of them. And there will be no other real info from me this week either. But I can assure you that this episode will be super educational. Before we jump into that, I just wanted to share one other little bit of personal news with all of you, and that is that Dustin and I.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Have officially signed a lease on a.

[Amanda]

House back in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, where. Well, it's not quite where Clotheshorse began, because the first. I don't know, the first, maybe like 10 episodes of Clotheshorse were actually written and produced in Philadelphia, but It's where I really think of clothes horse, like, growing, you know, blossoming, all of those things. So I'm excited to be moving back. It's quite an epic, epic move from Austin, Texas, to Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So December is going to be pretty hectic. We're making that move at the end of the year, which is, like, so much sooner than you think. But I'm really excited. I'm excited to be able to see all of my friends and family that live back there. I'm excited to be able to record IRL with people. I'm excited about all the great thrifting and many, many other things. Lancaster is really, really cool, and it has its own budding slow fashion movement. So I'm excited to be back there. Okay, well, enough about me. Let's jump into this very long. But hopefully for you, because it was, for me, very enjoyable conversation. All right, Dani, you. It's weird. You're, like, a regular in my mind, right? And, like, I feel I consider you one of the founders of this, like, modern, slow fashion community that we live in. But you haven't been on the podcast in, like, two years.

[Dani]

It's crazy. I cannot believe it's been that long. I realized it was that long, though, when I was, like, thinking back to when we were talking about doing an episode together, and it was like, about. We wanted to do one on, like, trends and trend cycles. And then I told you, I was like, my mental health is not there right now.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Dani]

I don't really feel like I can do this without, like, crying because I was, like, found out I was pregnant, but also did, like, my insurance was canceled.

[Amanda]

Oh, God.

[Dani]

Like, when my insurance company found out. So that's a whole long story. But yeah, when I was thinking about when I was. And then before that, it had been, like, a year. So now that's been. Or maybe it had been six months or something. So, yeah, over two years.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Dani]

Long and short of it.

[Amanda]

We should really do that trend episode someday.

[Dani]

We actually should.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Dani]

I agree. I have, like, since we started talking about it, I've had, like, so many thoughts on what we could talk about.

[Amanda]

Yeah, seriously. I, like, whenever you want to. I think that that would be really fun. Cause I was actually thinking. It was weird. I was thinking about trends this morning as I was getting dressed, because I was thinking, like, I put something on, and I was like, is this, like, uncool? And then I was like, who the fuck cares?

[Dani]

Who cares?

[Amanda]

But, like, you know, you know. Cause you. When you work in this industry for A long time. You're like seven. Seven years ahead of everybody else sometimes. And you, like, by the time something is the trend, you're like, I'm so over that. Right?

[Dani]

Yeah, for sure.

[Amanda]

It's.

[Dani]

But, like, I feel like I've been making great strides at, like, unpacking that because I had a moment this weekend where I put on an outfit and I was thinking about each article of clothing I was wearing. And, like, first of all, let me preface it by saying I looked in the mirror and I was like, I look fucking rad. But then I realized, like, wow, all the clothes I'm wearing are very old. Like, some of these I've had for, like, six years, like this, you know, whatever. Like, all these things I had acquired pre pandemic, and yet I still felt awesome and, like, not uncool. So thank you.

[Amanda]

Yeah, no, I was. People. People are always, like, asking me, like, oh, well, where do you buy clothes? Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I actually, like, really don't buy clothes because I have a ton that I really love.

[Dani]

Yes.

[Amanda]

And when I look at what's in my closet, to me, they are trendless. And it's the ones that were the most attached to a trend at the time that, like, I ended up, you know, selling on poshmark or something.

[Dani]

100% completely.

[Amanda]

It's just all propaganda. Right. Especially, like, as you know, today we're going to talk about sweaters. Spoiler everyone. But as I was looking through websites, looking at sweaters today and yesterday, I was like, you know, sweaters really, like, kind of doing the same thing they have been for a long time.

[Dani]

I was thinking the same thing when I was doing some research. I haven't really looked at those websites in a really long time. Same. I started looking and I was like. And I even looked at some of the brands I used to work for, and I was like, wait, this isn't actually that much different from what I was designing five years ago for these brands. And that kind of shocked me because, like, I think, you know, honestly, like, a lot of it could be the same design, but the chances are that the person who bought that thing I designed five years ago doesn't have it anymore, but for whatever reason, they might be buying this new one. And it's like, well, there are many reasons why they don't have that old thing, but it's. I don't think it's specifically because it wasn't a good style or something, but we'll get into the reasons why they don't. Have that sweater.

[Amanda]

We'll get into that for sure. I'm excited to talk to you today about sweaters. And this whole thing happened thanks to the power of the Internet, when you sent out an email from Picnicware your business when you talked about a recent Amanda Mull piece for the Atlantic, which most of you by now who are listening to this have probably read. But if not, don't worry, I'm gonna share the link in the show notes. The article was called you, sweaters are garbage. Approximately 9,000 people on social media sent it to me in a 24 hour period, which was good cause I might.

[Dani]

I only got it sent to me by my dad.

[Amanda]

Oh yeah. So I read it, you know, and I we're gonna talk a lot about it. There's nothing wrong with this article and I'm glad that we're having this conversation. Anyway, so Dani sent out an email in which she talked about it and why her recent sweater collection is different. And I posted a screenshot of it in Stories because I was like, this is a really good email. Right? It's educational. This is like the grossest analogy. But I use it all the time when I'm giving people business advice. Was like, sometimes you got to show how the sausage is made, right? To explain why your business works the way it does. And I thought it was like on point and I, you know, I shared that. And then you were like, hey, should I just like go on Clothesforce and.

[Dani]

Talk about this or whatever?

[Amanda]

And then I was like, great, okay, sold. Let's set this up. Yeah, but I'm excited for us to talk about this because I will tell you, like, since even you and I talked to prep for this episode, in the past week or two, I have been seeing more and more conversations, specifically on TikTok, where I spend more time now than I used to, which before was zero time. So it's all relative. A lot of conversations coming up about, like, why are clothes so crappy now? You and I have been living in this for a really long time, so we saw it happen. And the clothes have been crappy for a long time. I want to assure all of you someone did a TikTok, a content creator named Meredith lynch on TikTok, and a ton of people tagged me and were like, you should ask Clothes Horse podcast why clothes suck. And then I was like, okay, well, I'll make a video and I'll explain, like, how this all happened. And it's just been like starting this larger conversation. And I even was on Reddit yesterday And someone was like, have you guys noticed that clothes suck now? So I think we're at this, like, moment of reckoning. I like to believe.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

But we're finally figuring it out. Because I will tell you, as I said in my reel about this, that clothes have been crappier for a long time. And on the buying and design side, we assumed at some point customers would get sick of it, but they, like, never did. So we just kept doing it. Not, like, nefariously, you know, but just, like, why wouldn't we?

[Dani]

It just became habit. Like, this is what we do now. But it is interesting to me that you are seeing this emerge as well, because I'm seeing people respond in this way, and to me, I'm just like, yeah, what? Of course they're garbage. What are you talking about?

[Amanda]

They've been garbage for so long.

[Dani]

It's just. So I'm really wondering what that tipping point was for people to realize that I'm here for it.

[Amanda]

Me too.

[Dani]

It's just really interesting to me that it's kind of taken this long. And, Yeah, I hope more people realize it and question it and consider how that can affect their own shopping habits.

[Amanda]

Totally. I think it's one of those things where you kind of have the feeling that things aren't as good as they used to be, but you don't say it out loud. And then you finally do, and then everyone around you is like, yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Yeah.

[Dani]

And I feel like people also. I mean, people don't understand how clothes are made. You've said this a thousand million quadrillion times.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dani]

And they don't know what makes a good garment from a bad gar. But, you know, if you have two next to each other, like, you know, you're looking at both. Like, most people who are not, like, educated in clothing, construction or what have you will be able to be like, oh, that one's shitty. This one's. This one's well made. And not really know why, but, like, it's just this. Like, you can just tell. But, like, I wish that people could be a little bit better versed about, like, what makes clothing good and what, you know, good quality and what doesn't. So obviously, we're going to talk about the specifics of sweaters today. Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda]

You know, I said I don't buy a lot of clothes. When I do buy clothing, I try to shop secondhand. And regardless of whether I buy something or not, I try on a lot of clothes at thrift stores. Like, I'm an avid thrifter, and I.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Just like to know what's up.

[Amanda]

So if I see something that is labeled with my size and it still has the tag on it, I'm like, I gotta know, what is the fatal flaw of this garment? Good call. Yeah, right? And it's always just the most ridiculous fit. Like, I tried on this Shein dress, okay. It was really cute. I was like, is this. Am I going to thrift a Shein dress? Because Dustin was like, that is a really good dress. And I put it on, and my arm wouldn't go through the armhole above my elbow. I was like, okay. Like, I know why that's here. And it was, like, a fatal flaw to that garment. Like, there was no fixing it.

[Dani]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, for sure.

[Amanda]

And that's how I see a lot of really bad fit. Really weird sewing that doesn't make any sense. And, of course, just, like, a lot of bad fabrics that are already snagged and the tags are still on. So it's. It's. It's pretty. It's pretty bad out there right now, I got to say. Like, I don't know if it's really gotten worse than it did was five, six, seven years ago, but it's been going strong. And I will also say this. Listen, I have many issues with Shein. I do not support shopping there. If you got to do what you got to do, like, no shame, right? But I will tell you that the Shein quality is no worse than the quality I'm seeing on other labels at the thrift store.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Like, the one thing that is consistent, it's just all not good. Right?

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And so when people are like, I don't thrift Shein, I'm like, I don't know. If you're thrifting other brands, you should just give it a try. If it fits you and you like it, you're gonna wear it. You know?

[Dani]

I completely agree with that. And, like, you know, I think unpacking, like, what. What creates the. Like, the price tag that's on the clothing, like, demystifying that, which you do a lot, will kind of help people understand that. It's like, just because this top is $9 from shein, but, like, this other top from, like, Zara is, like, 29. Doesn't mean that the $29 one is automatically better quality. It's just like, think about, for example, just one example out of many, like, marketing budgets. Like, Zara has a beautiful photography. Their website is like, oh, my God, I'm Shopping at like a contemporary brand, you know, you're paying for that in that $29 garment. So, like, yes, we're talking about two cheap brands, but, like, at the root of it, like, there doesn't have to be much difference between the products themselves because you're paying for other things too.

[Amanda]

And I think that's a really good call out that we're going to be coming back to time and time again as we unpack sweaters today, that you cannot spot quality, or lack thereof by the price tag, because plenty of things that are expensive are the same as the lower price stuff. That doesn't mean that, like, there aren't great things out there that are high quality, long lasting, that are higher price point. Right. But when we assume that the dividing line, the way we can tell is price, we are wrong for sure. And I think that there are a lot of brands out there that sort of trade on that, that that's part of their branding, that somehow their stuff is exceptional. And it's not. It's not because it's. It's the same factories, it's the same fabrication, just better branding.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Dani]

I mean, luxury fashion is the, like, the perfect example of that. Like just the most insane, inflated prices.

[Amanda]

But it's.

[Dani]

It's described as luxury, which I feel is very unfair that they get to use the word luxury because it's like, what gave you the right to call yourself luxury?

[Amanda]

Oh, my gosh. And so much of it.

[Dani]

I have that a lot lately.

[Amanda]

And so much of it is polyester. Yeah.

[Dani]

Yes, exactly. And it's like these crazy price tags and I'm like, you know what's luxurious to me? Being able to buy from a small business or a maker. And, like, know that, like, the person who's emailing you is the person who made your garment. That is luxury to me. Not like buying something with a logo on it that's made out of polyester but costs like $3,000. But like, everyone knows you spent $3,000. That's not luxurious. I don't know how that's considered luxurious, but it's like, certainly not my definition of luxury. Absolutely.

[Amanda]

I mean, I. Let's like normalize shopping small and from like independent designers as the true luxury. Right. And not like this nonsense that.

[Narrator/Announcer]

I mean.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Anyway, so, you know, so we were inspired by the Amanda Mull piece and like I said, I'm going to share it in the show notes. And I know, Dani, you have some caveats that you want to share there. I just wanted to read one little Passage from it that I think, like, I'm going to start by saying I enjoyed this article. I'm glad it exists. I think it opened people's eyes. I kind of wish that Amanda would have talked to people who actually work in the industry as designers and buyers, because me too, I think it tells a stronger story than this, actually. But she did talk to Imram Islam, who is a textile science professor and knit expert at fit. And I'm just gonna read this little bit.

[Dani]

Was it FIT or was it at a North Carolina university? Cause I'm like, I DMed that person.

[Amanda]

So I'm pretty sure she said fit in the article.

[Dani]

Okay, sorry. I could be wrong.

[Amanda]

Let me see. What if it was the Fashion Institute of Technology of North Carolina?

[Dani]

It might have been another.

[Amanda]

Oh, it's a different person. Yeah. Andre west is the other person she talked to. Okay, sorry. And, like, so, you know, they obviously have a broad range of knowledge to share here, these two professors. But ultimately, like, there is something to be said for, like, working. Working in this, in there, and, like, seeing how this stuff goes down. And so today, I hope that we can shed a light on that. But this passage, I think, was, like, getting closer to where we are right now. Right. So according to Islam, if you push down retail prices with cheap labor, they'll no longer bear the use of quality materials. If you push down retail prices with cheap materials, they'll no longer bear the wages of garment workers with more skill and experience. If you push down both as much as possible, you stand a pretty good chance of gaining market share. So basically, if you, you know, the whole story of Clothes Horse practically is that we have become kind of addicted to clothing being cheap. Like, our concept of the. Of the value of really anything at this point is so messed up by the era of fast everything, which is like, new stuff as much as possible as often as possible at low, low prices. Right. And so every industry has jumped on this. And in fact, the theme of next year for Clothes Horse is going to be unpacking fast everything. Not even just fast fashion, but we know that our sense of value is skewed, and clothing specifically is cheaper now than it was in the 1990s. So to get sweaters to be cheaper, to fit in and be successful in the era of fast everything, you have to keep the prices low. You have to lower, in fact, lower them. Right? And so you have two options here. You can push on, like, the actual cost of producing the garments, which means, you know, suppressing wages for all the garment workers involved. The the, you know, the, the yarn factory, all the stuff pushing down on that or you, which is where we always start in apparel buying, you swap out the materials, right. So you, you switch to cheaper materials. And basically what is Imram Islam is saying in this article is that if you push too hard on the wages, you won't get high quality product. If you push too hard on the quality of the yarn itself, then you also won't get good product. And people, no matter how skilled, won't be able to make good things out of them. So it won't be successful. So you kind of got to push on both of them at the same time and then you can be successful because neither will be too bad. Right.

[Dani]

Right.

[Amanda]

Yeah. So we're going to talk a lot about that today and kind of how we get there. Now, Dani, you had a caveat about this sweater article and I want you to lay it out there because you're right and you're an expert.

[Dani]

Yeah, I mean this is. I kind of spoke to you in more detail about this. I didn't put this in my newsletter because it was like a little like kind of just defeating the purpose of the whole article. But my whole point was that she. So Amanda Mall, what she does in the article is that she basically says that this whole conversation started because some comedian shared a photo of Billy Crystal next to a photo of. What is the actor's name?

[Amanda]

I don't know. I'm terrible at actors.

[Dani]

I don't remember some modern actor. And both of them are like in the same pose. Basically this modern actor is mimicking the pose of Billy Crystal and they're both wearing ivory cable knit sweaters. And she said, and it brought up the question of like, why are sweaters just so poor quality now? And she's comparing the Billy Crystal one that was from the 80s or what have you, and then the current one, which I believe is like a 400 Ralph Lauren sweater or something. And while I totally agree with her point, I think what was interesting is the examples that were given because just by looking at the two sweaters, the one on the left to me that Bailey Crystal is wearing is like a very lofty acrylic sweater. Like I can see that sweater in a thrift store. I've seen it time and time again. And the one on the right is a very like, like very expensive cable knit. It's got different cables across the sweater, which is more expensive to knit and it's densely knit, which is more expensive to knit, which we'll get into that a little bit later. So when I look at them, I'm like, oh, the sweater on the right is like, would absolutely be more expensive to produce. So in a weird way, she's kind of defending her point is that, like, we don't really know what a expensive sweater, like a. A beautifully made sweater is anymore.

[Amanda]

Oh, absolutely not.

[Dani]

And so it was just like, to me, I loved the article, but I just kept getting stuck on that point because, like, I. I could tell just from looking at it that the sweater on the left was, like, probably 100 acrylic, if not like 50 acrylic, 50 wool, 50 cotton, or something like that. But I just thought it was really interesting.

[Amanda]

Yeah. And I will say, like, sweaters are definitely crappier in general now than they were in the 80s when Billy Crystal was wearing that sweater. For a lot of different reasons and in a lot of different ways that we're going to talk about. But sweaters being a. A mix of synthetic and natural fibers is kind of nothing new because that's where customers tend to cast their vote. Which we're also going to talk about today. Yeah. Because I'll tell you, a lot of people who sent me this, this article were like, yeah, I don't know why we can't all switch to natural fibers. And I'm like, y' all don't want nice things? Okay, like, we'll talk about that today. But you know that I'm right. Dani. I was like, when you included that in your email, I was just like, thank you. Thank you. Okay, so first things first. I would like to ask all of you, are you reading the content labels on the things you buy? And are you looking on the websites before you make the purchases at the content, which in most cases is there, but not always. I kind of question how often people are looking at that, because in my experience, people choose sweaters and pretty much everything else they wear by how it feels. Right. And I say this all the time, but people think the 70s was the golden era of polyester. I mean, you can close your eyes. I can, like, feel a 70s double knit polyester garment, like, in my hand. Like, I. It's. It's so visceral, you could spot it.

[Dani]

From a mile away in a thrift store. Like, you know it from across the thrift store. Like, you see it.

[Amanda]

That fabric doesn't really exist anymore, but we actually live in the golden era of polyester right now with about 65 to 70% of all garments made being polyester in one way or another. And it's because it's. It's cheap right now, as a review for everyone, what is polyester? Well, polyester is made from fossil fuels. It is literally the same fibers that you would find in a plastic water bottle that pet fiber. And it is just spun, stretched, all kinds of things to make it. To turn it into fabric. Right. But it starts in the same way, which means it's not biodegradable. It means, yes, it literally is plastic. I don't even want to. Sometimes I start to get into a mental health spiral thinking about what polyester clothing could be leaching onto my body as I'm wearing it. It certainly sheds microplastics every time you wash it, even sometimes when you're wearing it. And it's not a good story, but it has become the way clothes are made because it is cheap. And when we started in, in my career to really start shifting into Polyesters around 2008, 2009, after the recession, during the recession, we thought it would be a temporary thing because we really thought there was no way that customers would be long term. And guess what? Customers didn't care. So we kept doing it. And I'll tell you, polyester, the technology for it is so good, it has progressed so much since the 1970s that you can't guess polyester by looking at it or feeling it even, you know, unless you're a major textile expert.

[Dani]

And I think another note on that is, like, when we talk about the content labels is you're saying polyester, but it's kind of more encompassing than that. It's like synthetic fibers in general. Like, to be totally honest, like, with sweaters, like, I very rarely, like you said earlier, most sweaters are right now are like a blend of, like, a lot, a lot different fibers. Yeah. Sometimes it's like six in a row, and you're like, wow, that's crazy. But it actually is pretty seldom that polyester is in there. And so there are other things, synthetic fibers that are 100% made up of chemicals, just like polyester is, that come under different names like polyamide, pbt, nylon, spandex, also known as Lycra, Elastane, like, the list goes on. So, like, you will probably more likely see those fiber names in your content label than, like, polyester itself.

[Amanda]

It's true. And I was looking across the Internet and getting myself riled up looking at sweaters, and one thing that I noticed time and time again is that in many cases, the retailer would like the description. The name for the style would be like, Such and such wool sweater. Such and such alpaca sweater. And when you clicked into the content, alpaca or wool would be one of the most minor parts of the blend or comp. It might be 33% polyamide, and then 33% wool, you know, and then a bunch of other ones following that.

[Dani]

And.

[Amanda]

But the likelihood of you going online right now, I mean. And they exist. Right. I saw it on Everlane. I saw it on a couple of other sites. There are places that are selling full, like, full natural fiber sweaters, but not a lot. And not a lot of full natural fiber sweaters. Right.

[Dani]

One of my faves at one of my previous jobs was we had a sweater called the hint of casual sweater, which you have to give it to them for saying hint of, because 3%. Yeah. I would say that's a hinge. That is a dash, maybe even not worth noting. But let's just put it in the title of the sweater.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. So you don't get your expectations too high.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And, yeah, I mean, all of these synthetics start as petroleum, and, you know, it's like melted, spun, smooshed around. All kinds of things happen. But ultimately, the technology is so good that you could almost feel some of these fibers and think like, wow, this feels like a cloud. Right? This feels soft. Yeah. And that brings me. Now you're going to use a term that gives me major traumatic flashbacks to being a buyer.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

I will tell you that as a buyer, we rarely would sit around in meetings with designer production, and no one would say, this is 12% cashmere and 37% dilaud and, you know, 40% polyamide. No. No one said that. Right. That didn't happen. We pass it around and we feel it, and it's like, oh, this feels so nice. This feels so cozy. We feel. So go ahead and say it. Say it, Dani.

[Dani]

Yummy.

[Amanda]

Ah.

[Dani]

So yummy. I love this yarn. It's so yummy.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Yeah. The yum factor, right? You haven't lived until you've seen a bunch of adults sit around a table, passing around swatches, going, mm, yummy, yum. Yeah, it's real. And it's, like, extra gross when you think about it now. Cause you're like, oh, y' all are, like, rubbing plastic. Me like, mm, yummy. Oh, so good. Right? But this is, like, the more yums it got from the Everyone in the meeting, the more likely that sweater was gonna be a bestseller. Because customers. Because that's how the customer would feel.

[Dani]

When they Smush their hands into it.

[Amanda]

Absolutely. I mean, I would also things like, it feels so expensive. Okay. The moment that someone says this feels so expensive, that means it's ridiculously cheap. Yeah. Looks so expensive. Same thing. Oh, it's so luxe. Also not good.

[Dani]

Not against. I was going to say lux is the other one.

[Amanda]

Yeah. So gross. And really, like, what it is. It's all about is, like, okay, we got to hit this price, but we also have to, like, appeal to the customer's, like, sensory.

[Dani]

I don't know.

[Amanda]

Just, like, sensory needs once. And I say this all the time. I was so glad you said it in your email, Dani. Customers think they want wool. They want alpaca, they want natural fibers, but that is not actually what they will buy. And it has been the bane of my existence, my entire career.

[Dani]

Yeah, me too. It's so, so frustrating. I am like, a wool addict. Like, I love a scratchy wool sweater. Like, not that all sweaters. Wool sweaters have to be scratchy, but, like, you know, you layer that and it, like, looks amazing. Keeps you warm as hell, still breathable. You, like, literally don't have to wash it, and it won't smell for, like, a long time. Let's be real. Yeah. Wool is, like, amazing, and yet, like, we would design, like, we would pick out a yarn that we loved, and it's, like, 5% wool or something, and we would get so many bad reviews. Like, this sweater is so scratchy. And I'm like, did they receive the same sweater? Like, I don't understand how anyone would describe this as scratchy. Like, what is going on here? This is absurd. It's 5% wool. Everything else is synthetic. Like, yeah, it's tough.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Sucks. It sucks. Like, in my experience, people really go for the most plasticky yarns.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

They're lofty, they're fluffy, they're soft, they're cozy, they're yummy.

[Dani]

Delicious.

[Amanda]

There was this fabrication we sold for years at Urban Outfitters that was called brush, and it wouldn't have been, like, in the sweaters area. It was in, like, heavy knits. That was, like, the vibration.

[Dani]

Yeah, no, we, like brushed hotchie sometimes that fell into the sweaters category because even though it definitely wasn't a sweater, like, to the customer, they might call it a sweater. So it was always kind of, like, juggled back and forth. Can I just make a comment, though? You just said, when I used to work at Urban Outfitters.

[Amanda]

Oh, yeah. So Dani was like, why don't you ever say Urban Outfitters? Because that's where you worked or the other. And I was like, oh, I don't know. Like, you know, back when I started Clothesh, I had just been let go from my job at Nuuly, which is a. The rental brand that is.

[Dani]

I'm so proud of you, Amanda.

[Amanda]

Thank you. That is owned by Urban Outfitters. And as part of my severance agreement, which they gave me, you know, I've said this famously. They gave me two weeks of severance and cut off my insurance in the middle of a global pandemic when I wasn't going to get a job for, like, a year. And I almost didn't sign this agreement because it was, like, only two weeks of pay. But I was like, I don't know what's going to happen to us next, so I am going to sign this agreement. And they were like, you know, as part of this agreement, you can never say anything bad about the company publicly or even tell anybody unless they are completely directly connected to your financial management. How little severance we gave you. So I am like, you know, Danny was like, that was years ago. Like, you gotta be set free. So I'm setting myself free. If I get an ugly letter, you'll all be the first to hear about it, but we're not seeing anything.

[Dani]

Are you just making me culpable of this now?

[Amanda]

I'm telling everyone that I'm the one to blame. Okay. So last year, I talked to a lawyer about this because it had been on my mind specifically, you know, like. Like, it. It felt unfair because people stan these brands that are under the Urban umbrella, and it felt like I was complicit with my silence in a weird way. And I talked to a lawyer who was like, honestly, this severance agreement, should they decide to try to take you to court, is not gonna stand up because the balance of power is so messed up at this point that it's like a global pandemic. You're not gonna get a job for a long time. It's very clear, right, that you would be, like, kind of forced to sign this agreement.

[Dani]

I mean, totally fair.

[Amanda]

And it's a really bad look for them.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

So anyway, so, yeah, so when I was working at Urban back in the day, we would sell a lot of this brush fabrication, and it was like candy for children. Like, we. The first year we debuted it, like, people could not get enough of it. And it was like 900% polyester.

[Dani]

I'm literally sweating thinking about the fabric.

[Amanda]

Oh, so gross. But it was very, like, fluffy because it Was brushed. Like, after the fabric was woven, it was brushed to give it this, like, lofty layer on top of it that felt cozy. It's not unlike all that polar fleece kind of stuff, too. That's all plastic as well. But that was like, people. I mean, we just couldn't keep it in stock. And it was one of those things, like, you wear it once or twice and it pills to all hell, like, it falls apart in the washer, that kind of thing. And. And I always, when I think about, like, what customers or not what, but, like, how customers choose when they're shopping for clothing, especially when we talk about sweaters, heavier fabrications like that, that always comes up in my mind as, like, the prime example of how customers choose hand feel over anything else.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Always.

[Dani]

Yeah. And it's also, especially when it comes to sweaters, that is a very tactile type of garment. So it does make sense in that regard. But also, we have to say, like, you know, people aren't educated. People don't understand. Like, I, you know, I understand that when you brush the fibers on a fabric, you're bringing those fibers to the surface. Right. And when you bring, like, what is a pill? First of all, a pill is what happens when the friction of fibers rubbing up against each other.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Dani]

So if you're bringing all those fibers to the surface and it's kind of just all sitting there on the surface with this brushed effect, you're basically, like, giving those fibers a place to move around and, like, rub up against each other.

[Amanda]

Yeah. You're giving them a head start on pilling.

[Dani]

And by bringing them out of the woven or knit fabric, it itself, you're also, like, how to put it, like, weakening the actual structure of the fabric to begin with. So you're bringing it to the surface, which promotes it to pill, but you're also removing it from the structure, which makes it weaker, thus susceptible to holes, to bagging out, to just like. Like, just normal wear and tear. That should take a long time to happen. You're basically like, like giving it a kickstart.

[Amanda]

Yeah, like you said, so it is a. It is a garment with a short lifespan. Now, do I think the designers and buyers and production people who worked on that think of it that way? No, of course not. Right. They're just, like, doing their jobs. The people who sold it to you in the store aren't thinking that either. But that is the reality of these kinds of garments, is that they have a very short lifespan right out of the gate, no matter how careful you are when you care for them. Right?

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Some of them are just like these brush fabrications, for example, are going to pill just from existing, just from you wearing your coat over it to go out and run an errand, you know. So it's, it, it makes me sad. And it's like often when, when people are like, well, if we just switched everything to natural fibers, everything would be better. Like when I hear that, I'm like, that's just like not how it works. Yeah.

[Dani]

And I also want to say that like pilling is not innately a sign of a poor quality fiber or garment or something like that. Pilling is natural and it will happen over time. And even natural fibers will pill. Cotton will pill. Hello. Cashmere will pill. Like pilling is natural. But it's like when you combine all these different traits together, it's like the pilling is one of many things that make that a poor garment or a poor, like a, you know, not a long lasting fabric or fiber.

[Amanda]

Totally. You can only shave your sweater so many times before there's nothing left there.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Exactly.

[Dani]

Because just like what I was saying. What like, just like brushing, shaving is like taking parts of the fiber away. So pilling, I mean, shaving your sweaters is great. Like I don't, I wouldn't tell people not to do that. You should absolutely do that if you've got pills. But it's not something that should be done all the time. Like if you're having to shave a garment after every single wear, eventually the fibers are going to weaken so much that they're going to create holes because there's no more fiber keeping it together. So yeah, that makes total sense that it would withstand one more wear from the consumer. But once it came back, ultimately like, I wouldn't be surprised if there were holes.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Let's take a moment to thank some of the incredible small businesses who keep Clotheshorse going via their generous Patreon support. Selena Sanders, a social impact brand that specializes in upcycle clothing using only reclaimed vintage or thrifted materials from tea towels, linen, blankets and quilts. Sustainably crafted in Los Angeles, each piece is designed to last in one's closet for generations to come. Maximum style, minimal carbon footprint. Shift clothing out of beautiful Astoria, Oregon with a focus on natural fibers, simple hard working designs and putting fat people first. Discover [e-mail] late to the party Creating one of a kind statement clothing from vintage salvaged and thrifted textiles. They hope to tap into the dreamy memories we all hold. Floral curtains, A childhood dress the wallpaper in your best friend's rec room, all while creating modern, sustainable garments that you'll love wearing and have for years to come. Late to the Party is passionate about celebrating and preserving textiles, the memories they hold and the stories they have yet to tell. Check them out on Instagram latetotheparty People Vino Vintage Based just outside of la, we love the hunt of shopping secondhand because you never know what you might find. Catch us at flea markets around Southern California by following us on Instagram Vino Vintage so you don't miss our next event. Gabriela Antonas is a visual artist, an upcycler and a fashion designer. But Gabriela Antonas is also a feminist micro business with radical ideals.

[Amanda]

She's the one woman band trying to.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Help you understand why slow fashion is what the world needs. If you find yourself in New Orleans, Louisiana, you may buy her Ready to.

[Amanda]

Wear upcycled garments in person at the.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Store slow down at 2855 Magazine street slowdown. NOLA only sells vintage and slow fashion.

[Amanda]

From local designers and Gabriella's garments are.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Guaranteed to be in stock in person.

[Amanda]

But they also have a website so.

[Narrator/Announcer]

You may support this woman owned and run business from wherever you are.

[Amanda]

If you're interested in Gabriella making a.

[Narrator/Announcer]

One of a kind garment for you, DM her on Instagram lofashion Gabriella to book a consultation, please follow her on.

[Amanda]

Instagram at Slow Fashion Gabriella that's Gabriella.

[Narrator/Announcer]

With one L. Dylan Paige is an online clothing and lifestyle brand based out of St. Louis, Missouri. Our products are chosen with intention for the conscious community. Everything we carry is animal friendly, ethically made, sustainably sourced and cruelty free. Dylan Page is for those who never stop questioning where something comes from. We know that personal experience dictates what's sustainable for you and we are here to help guide and support you to make choices that fit your needs. Check us [e-mail] and find us on Instagram ylanpage lifeandstyle Salt hats purveyors of truly sustainable hats, hand blocked, sewn and embellished in Detroit, Michigan. Find us on Instagram Althats Gentle Vibes Vintage we are purveyors of polyester and psychedelic relics. We encourage experimentation and play not only in your wardrobe but in your home too. We have thousands of killer vintage pieces ready for their next adventure. See them all on Instagram. Entlevibibesvintage Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace. Located in the historic Eastern market. Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics. We also carry a curated assortment of sustainable and natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself. Browse our online [e-mail] and find us on Instagram at Thumbprint Detroit High Energy Vintage is a fun and funky vintage shop located in Somerville, Massachusetts just a few minutes away from downtown Boston. They offer a highly curated selection of bright and colorful clothing and accessories from the 1940s to the 1990s for people of all genders. Husband and wife duo Wylie and Jessamy handpick each piece for quality and style, with a focus on pieces that transcend trends and will find a home in your closet for many years to come. In addition to clothing, the shop also features a large selection of vintage vinyl and old school video games. Find them on Instagram at High Energy Vintage, online@high energyvintage.com and at markets in and around Boston. Vagavond Vintage DTLV is a vintage clothing, accessories and decor reselling business based in downtown Las Vegas, Nevada. Not only do we sell in Las Vegas, but we're also located throughout resale markets in San Francisco as well as at a curated boutique called Lux and Ivy located in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jessica, the founder and owner of Vagabond Vintage DTLV recently opened the first IRL location located in the Arts District of downtown Las Vegas on August 5th. The shop has a strong emphasis on 60s and 70s garments, single stitch tees and dreamy loungewear. Follow them on Instagram vagabondvintagedtv TLV and keep an eye out for their website coming fall of 2022.

[Amanda]

So there's no easy fix for this other than changing how sweaters work. But you know, we're going to talk about how sweaters come to exist as they are right now. But I'm going to tell you, I think that our brains, our human brains, we often want a quick fix, an easy black and white fix where we're like oh, if we do X, then Y won't be a problem anymore. So like for example, people, if I every time I post about like some sort of labor issue overseas, right, someone will say well if we made everything in the United States, that wouldn't happen. And it's like ah, you'd think that, but actually LA has tons of forced labor and wage theft and everything else. So nope, not a fix either, right? Or another one that comes up all the time every time I talk about polyester or any synthetics is, well, if we just started making all of our clothes out of natural fibers, again, we wouldn't have a problem. And actually we would have a major problem because we cannot continue to consume clothing the way we do now, no matter what it's made of. And if we shifted to wool, cotton, other natural fibers, what we would have is a different environmental emergency on our hands, which would be like, lack of farmland, a water shortage, and so much more. So there is no like, oh, well, if we just do X, then Y is fixed. No. Unless the X that we're going to do is buy less stuff in the first place. That's like the only solution, right?

[Dani]

What is that? You used to always share this quote or quote meaning like you used to always say it yourself something like, there is no magic fiber that we can like, that allows us to continue to consume at the rate that we are now.

[Amanda]

Exactly.

[Dani]

I can't remember exactly.

[Amanda]

You said pretty much exactly what I would say, that there's no magic fiber or magic fabric that lets us over consume without repercussion. Like, it all has a catch, right? And I almost would say, because I've read studies about this, that if we switched everything to 100% natural fibers, but we continue to buy and consume the way we do right now, it would actually be worse for the planet than it is with us over consuming all of these synthetic fabrics, believe it or not. Interesting, because that's how intense the impact of cotton, for example, is and a lot of other natural fibers. They are so intensive in terms of water and land use.

[Dani]

Well, also, I will add that when synthetic fibers were first coming into the scene, like turn of the last century, before that, whenever that was, one of the great things about it was how, how much more accessible it was because back then, you know, shipping like silk or wool from wherever it was produced was really, really expensive. But what with synthetic fibers, you could do that anywhere because all you needed was chemicals basically. And you didn't need all of the human power to, you know, raise the crops, to, to like card the cotton, etc. It was like a lot of automated things. So like, if we were to switch to all natural fibers, there would be a lot of like, human cost within that too, because of course, in order to make it affordable, we'd have to have like, like massive exploitation to, to make it as like, easy to, to produce as synthetic fibers are.

[Amanda]

Absolutely. I mean, some of the most egregious human rights violations in the garment supply chain happen in the area of cotton. In India, we have a lot of schemes that exploit young women, like these dowry schemes where they come and work in, like, in a cotton mill for a few years in exchange for a dowry, and then they're basically, like, trapped there for years. Then when they leave, they have very little money because they've been nickeled and dimed from their agreement. We can't not talk about the Uyghur Muslims in China and really many other religious groups and dissidents in China are put into these work camps where they're cultivating cotton or doing other manufacturing. That's actually now also happening and has actually been happening for quite a while in the synthetic fabric realm in China, too. But, I mean, cotton is like a. Across the world, there's a lot of forced labor involved in cultivating cotton.

[Dani]

So, yeah.

[Amanda]

The only simple answer is that we need to buy less stuff. But it's like, there's no money in saying y' all should buy less, right? Yeah, but that's the reality. It's not a sexy story, exactly. It's a true story.

[Dani]

But you know what is a sexy story is, like, yarn made out of tires. Like, old tires or something. So, like, that's the thing that we get pushed all the time is like, these really crazy regenerative yarns that are, like, super sustainable and circular. And it's like, no. Like, what does it take to make a yarn out of a tire? I'm tired. I really hope there are no yarns made out of tires. I have no idea.

[Amanda]

I believe it, though. I know. I just had this visceral moment, like, the smell of a tire, and I was like.

[Dani]

But, like, let's be real. Like, no matter what these things are, like, it is a huge chemical process. I mean, even, like, you know, I'll be honest, my sister, like, is always telling me, like, oh, yeah, but it's bamboo. And I'm like, bamboo is rayon. Like, bamboo is a tree. How much do you think it takes to, like, make that, like, that bark, that tree pulp into a soft, luxurious fiber? A shit ton of chemicals and processing. So, like, I think that, like, there's also a lot of, like, greenwashing in that regard, too. Because, like, I see bamboo as being, like, on these. On, like, you know, so many different things that make it seem like it's, like, a really good, like, sustainable fiber to use when it has so many issues as well.

[Amanda]

Yeah, like, there's. There's just no easy solution. Because. Because. Or I should say there's no Easy solution that just lets you keep shopping. And unfortunately, like, if you're like Nike or any other retailer out there, I think Nike, because I think they made stuff out of recycled tires. That's why they're on the top of my brain. But like, if you're one of these brands, you can't say, like, hey, y' all just like, buy less stuff. It's the best thing for the world. Yeah, well, what are the shareholders gonna say, right? You know, so instead it's like, here's this other scheme that actually might be worse in the long run. And yeah, it's just. It's like the genie. We let the genie of over consumption out of the bottle and we need to jam it back in. And it's really, really hard because I, like, honestly, like, Dani, I think about this a lot and I think we, all of us, our community, we need to. Unfortunately, it feels unfair. We're gonna have to do the work to put that genie back in the bottle because. Because the industries out there are not going to do it.

[Dani]

Yeah, I know. I mean, I said this, I think I said this in a thread a while ago, is that it's like, it's very frustrating that the labor, a demystifying what goes into garment production, the ethics, the process, the environmental toll, all that, like education is put on the backs of small businesses and like makers who nobody's paying them to do this work of educating. Nobody's funding that. And to be honest, like, most of us aren't really making money off of the things we're selling anyways. But, like, it's our job to share it because no one else is gonna do it. And like, we do it because we want to and it's vital. And this is our cause. And it's like we're desperate for people to understand and they're not learning it in other places because it's just not out there for them to hear.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it's really, really hard. And you know what? I was thinking about this recently because, you know, like, I met you back in like 2020. That's when I started Close Horse. I feel like that's when a lot of us started doing this work. Right. I've seen so many people kind of disappear from the movement since then, and I. No shade on them. Cause I understand it, ma'. Am. This work is exhausting. It is unpaid. It is like 24 hours a day. People wanna fight you on the Internet. People want so much of your time. It is very, very exhausting. And there are times when you Just feel like I'm coming up against this huge machine that will not stop moving. And I, like, I'm just, you know, it's hard. You're like, as an individual, right? But I also think, like, man, we need everybody we can to be having these conversations and telling the people around them so that we can share this work, you know, and reach more people. But it is hard. It is really, really hard.

[Dani]

It's really discouraging and, like. It is. Yeah. Cause, I mean, there's, like, so many sides to it. It's like, you know, in some respects, I'm like, you don't know if you're actually having an impact on anyone also, like, truly having an impact. Like, people that are, like, close in my lives to me, like, my family and friends, like, I see them continuing some of their shopping habits, and I'm just like, what have I been like, you know, putting all this energy into if, like, these people that are closest to me are still have their, like, Amazon subscriptions?

[Amanda]

You know what I mean?

[Dani]

I know that's such a little trivial thing, but I'm like, Like, it's just exhausting. And, like, yeah, at the end of the day, like. Like, I don't know why people think, like, we get paid a lot of money to do what we do. Like, we literally are, like, not making any money. So it's like, eventually, like, I do get why so many people. Like, I've used this expression so many times with my husband, but, like, why so many people are quoting throwing in the towel? Because it's. It's funny. Just so you know, if you're a listener and you don't know, picnic wear does a lot of things made out of vintage towels. So I, over the years have said to myself many times, like, okay, I'm ready to throw in the towel. So it's a little joke for myself. But anyway, yeah, it's really, really freaking hard. And right now, like, I'm telling you guys, listening, if you're not a small business owner, listen up. Your small business owner friends are suffering, are really, really having a hard time. So if you've ever said, like, support small business, like, you gotta actually show your support every once in a while. I know it's hard, but, like, I am so tired of seeing, like, small businesses, small shops, like makers, et cetera, say, like, sorry, I can't do it anymore. Like, it is so, so sad to me. I'm sorry, that was a tangent. I didn't mean to go on.

[Amanda]

No, I think it's a good One that people need to hear. Like, I, you know, you know, Tuesday Bassin is gonna. Is closing down her store at the end of the year.

[Dani]

I didn't know that.

[Amanda]

I know, it's really sad, right? And I looked at one of her posts about it. Cause also, like, I follow Tuesday Bassin, but damn, if Instagram's ever gonna show me one of her posts.

[Dani]

Yeah, seriously, that's why I haven't seen it. I don't think I've seen her stuff in forever.

[Amanda]

So I was, I heard about it and I went to her, you know, her profile and was looking at the post and someone said, oh, man, I wish I would have known that I would have bought something from you. Oh, my God, guys, like, show your support. If you don't have the money, fine. Show your support in other ways. And I, like, honestly, it's the same thing for Clothes Horse. I had like, a total meltdown last month where I was like, I'm ending Clothes Horse at the end of this year. I have since backtracked on that. But I was like, the. The level of work that comes with this with, like, literally no reward sometimes is really, really hard. And I just, I think that people take the work that we all do for granted unfortunately, sometimes. And reading that comment on Tuesday Bassin's post was like, oh, if I would have known that it's really hard to run a small business, I would have bought something. Like, if I would have known you would go out of business, I would have bought something. Like, don't. Don't let that happen, everyone. Like, I. I know it is really hard for all of us out there, but let's do all the things we can to support one another right now and kind of always.

[Dani]

It's also really, really hard to, like, to admit that to your following, like, I'm about to go out of business.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I know. Because that's not the world we live in.

[Dani]

I don't think you're gonna see that often. Because also, let's be real, like, like, every marketing thing I've ever read, like, basically says that, like, people don't want to buy from you if they think, like, out of pity, you know what I mean? They're not going to want to purchase. So that does more of a disservice, to be totally honest, to announce that. So if there are small businesses that you would hate to see go away, you gotta show your support, you gotta.

[Amanda]

Show up for them. And there are a lot of ways you can do that. Right? But I do think we're totally going off in a major detour here. But I think that, that we all tend to keep like take for granted that all of these people who inspire us, who educate us, who make us feel part of something are going to be around forever. And we can't, we can't assume that. I think like 2023 has been a turning point for a lot of people who started doing this work in like 2019, 20, 20 of them being like, I'm burned out. All I do is work and I have nothing to show for it. And we're just beginning to see that change and people disappearing. So we gotta all rally together because otherwise we're just gonna keep seeing our friends buying sweaters made out of tires or whatever the heck is gonna come next, you know, Like, I think it's amazing that we're having these larger conversations about why clothes suck now. You know, let's keep having them, you know, and getting more and more people in our lives to move away from those companies that sell us all this bad stuff and do bad things for the world. You know, I saw my sister in law share her Amazon wish list on Facebook today and I just got so sad. I was like, man, I can't even reach the people in my near orbit.

[Dani]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[Amanda]

It's really hard. It's really, really hard. Right? And you know, so we all have people in our lives who listen to us, who care about us, who like to hear what we have to say. Say it. Say things. This is the truth about sweaters. This is the truth about this. This is why things are bad now. You deserve better. We deserve better. The planet deserves better. Our kids deserve better. Everyone deserves better. Let's make a change collectively, you know?

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Okay, well, let's continue talking about sweaters this nice little like intermission. All right, So I thought we could talk a little bit. This is something I talked about in my reel about like, why clothes are not as great right now. And now with both of us here, we have a buyer and a designer. If we had a production person here, we would have the triangle of clothing dilution complete. But, you know, I wanted to talk about kind of how where we start in the design sample process and where we end up like with what's actually in the stores and on the websites for customers to buy and how that happens because I don't know about you, but I was never like, you know what I would love to do for a living is make really disappointing stuff, right?

[Dani]

Oh my God, no, I Never said that in my life, but, man, did I do it.

[Amanda]

Exactly. Exactly. Inevitably, that is what you do. And it's interesting. I noticed the people who had been like that were way higher level than me in buying early in my career. You know, like, they never wore clothes from Urban Outfitters, Right? They never even really wore clothes from any of the other sister brands. Like, they bought, you know, like a luxury clothes and stuff. And I was always like, that's so weird. We make so much cute stuff, right? And then I work in it for a couple years, and I'm like, oh, God, everything we make is terrible. It breaks my heart. I will say, like, at Urban, it was never as extreme as it was at Nasty Gal, where we would start with this stunning sample, and by the time we finished, it was like a plastic nightmare.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

But I thought we'd start with that. So my experience as a buyer is often we on the buying side, we're doing a bunch of data analysis, and we're kind of coming to the table with design and saying, like, hey, we need this many designs, this many colorways for this, this period. Right. And we might even say, like, specifically, this one needs to be sleeveless. This one needs to be long sleeve. This needs to be turtleneck. Right. And we would give you all the kind of framework for what we need, and that's all based on what we sold last year. Now, one thing you got to remember, in any company, but especially in the world of fast fashion, this year's sales have to be higher than last year's, and next year's sales will be higher than this year's, and that's just what you have to hit. And also, everything has to be more profitable than it was last year. So we really lean heavily into, like, what's performed before. How can we make that again get people to buy it who already have it and have it be more profitable while also sprinkling in some new stuff. Right. I think that's a pretty good summary of what it is to be a buyer.

[Dani]

I'm, like, really shocked by how easily you summed that up.

[Amanda]

I mean, I've been doing it for a really long time. So then you're the designer, Right? You're our sweater designer. What do you do next?

[Dani]

Woof. Oh, my God. Okay, so typically, we will have references of the things that the buyers loved because they made us lots of money. So we will be very clear in what those items are. We will also be very clear on the dogs, the things that didn't sell.

[Amanda]

Yes.

[Dani]

And we will Also be very clear on why the buyers felt like they didn't sell. And we might not agree with those reasons. And when I say we, it could be like, me and the other designer or whatever. Like, we also don't agree. But, like, there are so many different variables between these sweaters. So how can you really nail down the reason why one didn't sell and one did sell? And so much of our shopping habit is emotion. You know, like, you can't get into the brains of the customers. And. And most. Most of the time, if you did, they wouldn't even be able to explain why they love the thing. It's just yummy.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dani]

It's like, doesn't mean anything.

[Amanda]

Our job as buyers is to try to get as close as possible using data. And, like, for me, always about, like, observation, going out and watching people interact in the stores, you know, like, the thing is, especially if you work for a company that has stores in addition to a website, there's what sells or doesn't sell sometimes is a little bit of a roll of the dice, because if the corporate merchandising team doesn't give the direction that that style should be, like, focal or used on mannequins or have a good spot in general, it could be jammed back in the corner. And no matter how much you and I love it, it's not going to sell because no one's going to see it. And so that's the other thing. When you're a buyer, you're kind of like, why didn't this sell? Because you got. You're going to be asked a million times why it didn't sell and what you learned from it. And so you have to come up with some sort of excuse. Yeah, yeah.

[Dani]

But it's hard because you're like, basically your career is contingent on things selling. And so, you know, you kind of really have to know how to talk and explain and understand. And even if you don't understand, you.

[Amanda]

Have to sound like you do, you do, you do. Because no one's gonna. Here's the thing you can't ever say, like, I remember being in a meeting where there had been just this epic east coast blizzard. And, like, the whole last week, the east coast had been like, everyone was snowed in. Right. So stores were technically open because our company was like, evil overlord in that way and expected people to come into work, but no one actually went shopping because they were snowed in. And so our sales were terrible. Now, any person would say, well, your sales were terrible because of the Blizzard. But instead we had to be like, well, we think sales are slow because of, you know, we didn't have enough long sleeve turtlenecks in the store yet, but they're on their way. Like, that's. You could never use weather as an excuse. The economy, nothing like that. So you have to, like, you have to come up with a reason.

[Dani]

No one always has to be to blame, right?

[Amanda]

And when you're a buyer, like, literally, if sales aren't good, you are to blame. Someone was asking me like, hey, why did you get yelled at so much at your last job? Like, were you missing something? What was going on? And I was like, because sales were bad. And it was like completely out of my control. But it was my responsibility.

[Dani]

And you also, I have to say, you also can't say, like, even if you have a wonderful memory for meetings and interactions, you can't be like, oh, well, the GMM said that we should change the yarn to this yarn, and it made it really shitty. Like, you can't say that.

[Amanda]

You can't say that. Even though that's the truth. I mean, this thing I cite all the time, as, you know, like, when you're in a buying interview, it's always like, what's the biggest mistake you made in your career and what did you learn from it? And I always have the same story, which is when my GM made me buy 10,000 straw fedoras, even though I said, listen, that was a thing last year, it was great. We made a lot of money. The tide has turned on fedoras. It's embarrassing to wear a fedora. Now there are memes. Do you want me to explain what a meme is? Like, that's how I felt when I was talking about there are memes on Tumblr about fedoras. We cannot sell fedoras anymore. And he was like, if you don't go back to your desk right now and write a PO for 10,000 straw fedoras, you can consider your job done. And so I went back to my desk and I wrote a po for 10,000 strofadoras. And guess what? They never sold. Sold at all. Not at 25% off, not at 50% off, not at 75% off. We literally had to job them out and like, donate them. And all season long. Why are hats missing their sales? Why are hats missing their sales? Well, the GM said I had to write a 10 units of straw fedoras. I had to cancel everything else that was on. I was planning an order, and that's all we have. And no one wants them. No, I can't say that.

[Dani]

Such a common. Common scenario.

[Amanda]

Such a common scenario. And then, I mean, this was still pretty early in my career, so I hadn't learned that, like, you cannot win. Right. In my performance review, I said, I feel really frustrated because I'm not being allowed to make decisions on my own, but then I'm accountable for the decisions that other people are making. And I cited the Straffadoras thing, and my boss was like, I think you should look somewhere else for a job. And so I did. But, yeah, I mean, like, that was, like, really happened. You know, I didn't get my bonus. I got yelled at for, like, six months straight.

[Dani]

Summed that up, though. Like, I never, like, I never really thought about it that way, but that's exactly how I felt in my career, too. But, like. Like, kudos to you for, like, having the foresight to, like, put that into words, despite how it was received. Like, that is. That perfectly encapsulates how I felt so much of my career.

[Amanda]

Oh, my God, totally. And I will tell you that once again, like I was saying earlier, like, we don't sit in these meetings, and we're like, what's the crappiest thing we could make? Like, we're, like, so excited, but unfortunately, so many of these decisions are out of our hands that, like, we bear the responsibility of them. But, like, we knew it was a bad idea to begin with. You know, we had no choice. And I know design. I mean, like, I. Even when I was a buyer, an executive would walk by and put a tear from a magazine on my desk and be like, make this. And I would be like, I think that's a bad idea. You know, it's so similar in design, because then you're also depending on who your buyer is. You're dealing with that too, right?

[Dani]

Yeah. I mean, you basically, just the past little conversation we just had just described the design process, basically. So if any of you are wondering what it's like to be a designer, like, Amanda, you just described it, because I was like, how do I summarize what the design process is like? And that's pretty much it. If that didn't make any sense to you, then perfect. You get it.

[Amanda]

Yeah, pretty much. Good summary. It's just really weird.

[Dani]

Yeah, it's just like, everything's out of order. Nobody makes sense. You state your opinion, and you're really confident about it, and you back up with tears and with stats, and you explain. But then someone says no, because somebody Walked into the room wearing something from Zara, and it was really cute. And why not?

[Amanda]

You have that on the wall.

[Dani]

And so here's our collection now. Okay, so being bought.

[Amanda]

So that's a great. Okay, so that's a great call out. So basically, the next step is like, sample review. Well, like, maybe sketch review, depending on where you're working, where you would sit down with your sketch ideas and show them to your buyer and you'd talk it through. But then next is like, the samples are on the wall. And I was telling you that over my career, I found more and more when I would go to these sample reviews that over time, all the samples on the wall weren't even samples that we'd made yet. They were things that someone had bought somewhere else that we were gonna copy. And the last sample review I did before the pandemic, four sweaters, every single thing on the grid, which I was like, oh, these are all so cute. And someone sat next to me and, like, don't get attached to them. Those are bought samples. And I was like, oh, they're gonna look nothing like that. They're gonna look nothing like that. Cause that's the other thing. So you're gonna get pressed to copy more and more stuff that it'll be like, here's this 500 sweater. It's like Marc Jacobs. It's fully cashmere. It's like, hand knit by, like, a person. Yeah, we want that, but we need it to be $58 retail. Retail. Right. And so you get into this quandary where you're, like, being expected to create these things that are not feasible.

[Dani]

Yeah. And then in many cases, you're at the same time as being told, copy this directly, but make it, like, 300% cheaper. You're also having. Maybe this is just one of my jobs, but this was, like, definitely a common thread. You're also going to have to attend meetings where you talk about how we can't copy things and we need to make sure. Like, have you ever heard the bus stop blink test or something? Like, two people at a bus stop. Like, if you blinked your eyes, would you be able to tell that they were wearing the same sweater or something? I don't even freaking remember. It made no sense.

[Amanda]

It made no sense.

[Dani]

Yeah, but, like, so you're being asked to, like, take these classes and commit to not copying things, and then somebody's putting a tear on your desk and saying, like, we need to make this. Exactly. And you're like, what exactly? You mean, like, inspired by. No, exactly.

[Amanda]

Right. Or you're like, GM just went to Europe and came back with, like, $10,000 worth of things he bought.

[Dani]

Like, from Givenchy. Yeah, exactly.

[Amanda]

He's like, make these. Right. This was like. This has happened everywhere I worked. It was so egregious. At Nasty Gal, like, someone you know, it would be like, here's this $10,000 Givenchy jacket that we rented. We can't even afford to buy the sample. Let's make a, like, $200 version of that. Oh, that. That seems like that's gonna go well. And it's the same thing would happen in sweaters everywhere I worked. And, you know, once again, like, you go into the meeting, the whole wall is stuff you're supposed to copy. And at the meantime, even as a buyer, like I was telling you back at Urban, back when Urban was like, there was this blog called Urban Counterfeiters, which I don't think exists anymore, but it was basically, like, where they would show stuff that Urban had copied. They made us all sign an agreement saying that if we were ever even suspended, suspected, like something that we had bought was suspected to be a copy, we would immediately be terminated without conversation. So crazy. But then at the same time, five minutes, you sign the agreement. Five minutes later, your boss walks by and puts a tear on your desk of something they want you to copy or something they bought in LA or whatever. And so you're like, what am I supposed to do here? Right? And then, so, you know, we have sample review. We're like, oh, we're gonna buy all these things? Of course, we can't afford any of them, but we're gonna put in prices for them and plan it. Right? So then the samples come back. And this is usually like, you know, the first pass, in my experience is production has tried really, really hard to stick to the vibe of the original garment. But at the same time, like, design is there. Like, hey, I made these things to make them different. Right. Because we're all trying to be ethical people here.

[Dani]

Yes.

[Amanda]

And so they're hanging on the wall. And two things happen in that meeting. One, the DM or the GM are like, I liked it when it looked like the original better. And you're like, yeah, well, we can't buy that, because then we would be getting sued. Yeah, but the original was better. Okay, well, then maybe we shouldn't do this style. Can't you just make it look more like the original? So that's one thing that happens, right?

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Or maybe everybody's like, these all look amazing. I can't believe we pulled it off. We copied all these things, and no one will ever know. And then production's like, yeah, but the thing here are your prices, right? The thing about that sweater is, in order to hit your margin target, it's gonna have to be $300 dollars. And you're like, okay, cool. It needs to be 68, because that's what the best seller was last year. So what do we do there? And this is when it starts, right? We're like, okay, we're gonna sub out the yarn, right?

[Dani]

Okay. Yes, yes.

[Amanda]

First, this is the juice of it, right?

[Dani]

So. And this is where I. I can't remember if you already mentioned this, but, like, where, like, the conversation of, like, what the content of the yarn is is kind of not really important. It's more so just like, what does it feel like?

[Amanda]

And look like. And look like, right? And look like.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Like.

[Dani]

Yes. And look like. And. But however, what layers into that with sweaters specifically? I mean, I'm sure with other garments, but, like, my experiences in sweaters is the duty rates. So, like, even if on its face, like, you're looking at, like, three different yarn cards and one of them is, like, let's say it's like, good, better, best. So, like, cheap. Like, you've got one that's like, super cheap, one that's medium, and one that's expensive, let's say. It doesn't necessarily mean that, that, like, whatever, like, the garment you make out of the first one is going to be the cheapest because there's so many factors that layer into it. And like I was saying, one of them is duties. So I don't know if this has changed a lot in the past few years, but something that had, like, over 50% cotton would have a lower duty rate when it was imported into the US than something that was, like, over 50% synthetic. And then are also different rates for, like, over 25% wool or something like that. So it's, like, not very cut and dry when you look at things. And then on top of that, one distinct difference between sweaters or knitted garments in general and cut and sewn garments, whether they're woven or cut and sewn. Knit is that with sweaters. With knitted garments, you are paying for yarn and. And literally creating the fabric. So with cut and sew garments, you have a roll of fabric, you're laying it out and stacking the fabric layer over layer, and you're cutting your pattern pieces out of the fabrics. But with a sweater, as long as it's fully fashioned. Of course, there's cut and sew sweaters as well. You're knitting the yarn into the fabric, into the shape of the pattern pieces. So that's one distinct difference. And you have a lot of control over what that fabric looks like. So you are using one yarn, but there's so many things you can do with that yarn, which is the exact reason why I love sweaters so much. It's so much fun. But we're not getting into that right now. But what I will say is like, one of the big things you have control over that can result in like, different price sweaters is tension. So, like how tightly you knit or how loosely you knit. And this is a. Actually a really good place to bring it back to that photo of the Billy Crystal and the other fellow was that on the left. Like, I look at Billy Crystal sweater and it's very. It's like pretty lightly loosely knit. So it's pretty lofty. It comes out feeling very like, soft. And like lofty is like kind of the best word I can use to describe it. Whereas the Ralph Lauren sweater on the right is like tightly knit, which means that it's a hell of a lot heavier, but it is much, much more expensive as a result of being heavier. It takes longer to knit. So it's. The yarn itself is more expensive because you've got more of it. But it's also a lot longer of a process to knit. And of course, like, the knitting time can. Will play into like the cost of the garment because the longer it takes to knit, the more expensive it is. So. And then to add on to that as well, you, how you knit that yarn will also play into the pilling of it. So something like that feels really nice. Like you. You see it, dare I say hanging. We don't like sweaters hanging.

[Amanda]

Interestingly though, we hang them constantly in the office. I know.

[Dani]

Exactly. Exactly. So you see a sweater hanging in a store and you feel it, it feels like light and lofty and you put it on and you feel like you're wearing a cloud. Well, that lightness is actually part of what's going to cause the pilling as well. Because like I said about fibers and how they rub up in against each other, if they're very loose, there's lots of space to move if the tension is loose. So that can create more pilling as well. So. But all these things, like at the point in conversation that we're talking and we're finding, oh, like, this sweater is gorgeous, but it's really, really expensive. Oh, my gosh. It's like this. This many kilos of yarn per day, dozen. Like, how do we make it weigh less? Oh, well, we can loosen the tension. So, you know, you're loosening the tension, which, you know, can be for cost. It can also be for hand feel, but that's one of the things you can do to lower the price, and.

[Amanda]

You can change up the yarn. So, like, we're not sitting in the meeting saying, like, oh, can you add 5% more nylon to it or something to bring down the price. But certainly the production people are going back to the factory and saying, like, hey, can we lighten this up? Right? And so probably, you know, they're gonna add more nylon. And, you know, I always say that, like, some of the smartest people I've ever worked with in fashion are the production people, the production managers, coordinators, et cetera, because they are, like. They're the ones who really are, like, pulling out all kinds of charts and figuring it out and saying, like, okay, well, well, if we reduce the cotton content in this and replace it with nylon or poly, the price, the yarn will change to this, but then the duty will go up to this. And they're, like, exploring all the other options. And so it's, like, not unusual to have, as a buyer, the production person come by your desk with, like, a piece of paper with all these different yarns taped on them and be like, which one do you like the best? And then you pick one and you hope it's the right one. And they're like, okay, good, good. That one's the cheapest. It has the lowest duties, the lowest cost, what. What have you, right? And they're like, you know, they're making. They're taking all this data and working with the factory to, like, figure out where they can hit. But that is, like, number one. And. And any other garment that's not a sweater, it always starts with like, we're going to change up the fabric, right? Like, we got to figure it out. And then if you're still not there, which in a lot of cases, when you, like, you're going into a meeting and literally every sample in the wall is a bought item that is way more expensive than your price point is. You're not going to solve it all just by swapping out the yarn or the tension, right? So then it's like, let's crop it. Let's take off the sleeves, let's take off the details. Let's do this, let's do that.

[Dani]

Yes. When we were talking before. I hadn't even thought about it until this point, but you were talking about cropping sweaters, and I was like, wait a second. Is that why sweater vests are in style right now?

[Amanda]

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Dani]

Seriously, like, did somebody go like, oh, if we cut off the sleeves, we can hit the margins we need and like, like, talk about, like, trend episode? Like, that's it. That's where your trend started. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if that's why, like, it started that way.

[Amanda]

You know, I was saying to you that, like, I. All these years of swimming in this stew of pricing and data and all that, I often wonder, like, do the trends start with the people, or do they start in the buying offices with what we can afford. Right? Because I have seen us play into that. Like, I was telling you, like, at Nasty Gal, we were like, sheer dressing is sort of a thing. The Kardashians are doing it. Let's just make everything sheer, and then we can afford to do anything else we want because we're not putting a lining in. Like, it cuts so much cost, right? And I've seen that with crop tops. I've seen that with sleeveless things, mini dresses. I mean, there are so many trends that are so cheap to make but have, like, a high perceived value to the customer. Like I was telling you early in my career, when I was managing scarves and hats, chunky, chunky knits became a thing. Like, lofty, huge yarn, huge stitches, Right? Very lightweight, despite these huge stitches. And that was because it was the lofty yarn. It was practically a cloud. And I would develop a scarf that was seriously, like 20ft long and 2ft wide of this extra chunky, lofty yarn. And the pricing would come in at like, $3. But it looked expensive. There's that term. And I could sell it for 50 bucks.

[Dani]

Yeah. And that. So that I. I talked about this with you earlier. That's what's really interesting is, like, a lot of that is to do with, like, the knitting speed as well. Because, like, okay, here's an example. Say you have a very fine gauge sweater. So it's like really, like, you look at the stitches and they're really, really tiny.

[Amanda]

Right?

[Dani]

Okay, so that's a fine gauge sweater. And then you look at, like, a chunky sweater, like a cable knit sweater or something like an Irish sweater, which traditionally are hand knit. So not exactly the same. But imagine that those were both knit on a machine. You knit, knit one row of stitching on the chunky and you have like 3/4 of an inch. Right. Of fabric. You've created 3/4 of an inch of fabric. You knit one row of stitching on the 12 gauge machine, and you have an eighth of an inch.

[Amanda]

Right.

[Dani]

So you have to knit many more back and forth courses to get the same amount of fabric as you did with the chunky. So the knitting speed, even though the yarn is, like, finer and you're, you know, it. It utilizes less fiber per, like, inch of yarn. Whatever. Your knitting speed is so much slower on the 12 gauge versus the chunky. Obviously, there's so many other factors within that what makes it slower, fast. But that kind of summarizes why for that scar scarf, it was so cheap because they probably, like, busted those out so fast and they were using like a cheap acrylic roving yarn or something. So. Yeah, it's. That's another reason why you can't really, like, it's so hard to discern quality. And it's. I. I understand why people are challenged by it because it's like, think about how many years you and I have been working in this field and. And we're continuing to gain knowledge.

[Amanda]

Absolutely. A couple years ago, I saw all these blankets at Target. They were, like, massive, and they were huge stitches with very lofty yarn. Like, let's say the whole width of the blanket was like 40 stitches. You know, like that kind of thing. And all I could see when I was looking at them, I mean, like, they were marked at a pretty high price that no way it cost. There was no. I mean, this must have been like a 95% markup or something. Crazy.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And all I could think about is, like, that blanket in a couple weeks is either it's probably not gonna get pilly. What's gonna happen is it's gonna start compressing itself and feel plasticky, which is what it is. Right. It sort of loses its loft or also snagging, too.

[Dani]

Like, when things are loosely knit, when there's like, large spaces between the stitches, it can catch on something.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dani]

And create holes or pulls. And so those are other reasons why those sweaters are garbage.

[Amanda]

Yeah, I mean, it's, It's. It's so disheartening to think about all those meetings I've been in in my career where we have started with something that seemed like a really great idea, and by the time it hits the stores, it's completely different, you know, and it happens in all categories. Like, we might be like, oh, we love this jumpsuit, but we can't afford the make, it's too much sewing to make it as a jumpsuit. So let's turn it into a dress, you know, or in sweaters it would be like, okay, we cannot get this. Am I thinking of the right term here? It would be like fully fashioned or something when it's fully knit by the machine. Right, Fully fashioned.

[Dani]

Well, like I was saying earlier, like it's knit into the shape of the pattern pieces versus just being knit into like fabric yardage.

[Amanda]

Right. So we would say we cannot afford this as a fully fashioned knit. Let's move it into cut and sew, which is like a fabric. Fabric that is like swit sweater knit. I always love that word swit. We would often move like stuff into swit, which is substantially cheaper. And it is literally this like knit fabric that is cut and sewn together. But that stuff is even lower quality in my experience. Like snagaroo. Right?

[Dani]

Yeah. Snag a riffic for sure.

[Amanda]

Yeah. And just like fully polyester at the that point, but much less expensive. And as a customer, you would have no idea that that's. That it wasn't knit in the same way. Right, right.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

So, yeah. I have seen so much product hit the stores that was so far abstracted from what we wanted where we started. And here's the thing. If that style sells really well this year, then next year I, the buyer, I'm going to be the meeting and I'm going to say, danny, we need to bring this back or update it, but we also need it to be a dollar cheaper this year, you know, and so then here we go again. We're gonna water down the idea, you know.

[Dani]

Yeah. And we have to make it look different enough that the same customer wants to buy it again but not be so different that it's like a different item.

[Amanda]

Ah, what a good time. It just brings me back. Cause you know, you'd be sitting in a meeting and you'd be like, okay, well this is like a, a basic button up cardigan. It's nice. Like, how do we make that different?

[Dani]

Yeah, it's got like an armhole and it has no buttons. It's so basic. Do we change it to a raglan?

[Amanda]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dani]

Doesn't really know the difference between a set and sleeve and a raglan. They're not, they're not gonna see that difference. Okay, do we add buttons? O no, because buttons is going to cost.

[Amanda]

It's going to cost more. We got to bring down.

[Dani]

Do we make it shorter?

[Amanda]

No, no, no, no.

[Dani]

That's a different sweater.

[Amanda]

Let's make it a Henley. Yeah, we did so many Henley's for a while because it's like, oh, it's like cheaper than a cardigan because there's.

[Dani]

Less buttons, but it has that like detail that makes it look expensive.

[Amanda]

So many Henley. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is just like what happens. And you do this for 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, and suddenly the sweaters that you get to buy are extra crappy because they are like a dilution of a dilution of a dilution, like just for years. Right? They're so far from where they began and that's where we are right now. But here's the thing that wouldn't continue if people weren't buying them. And I think like that's the thing is like we don't know what we don't know as consumers when we're out there looking for a sweater. And I hope that this is starting to like open some eyes us talking about this.

[Narrator/Announcer]

If you're enjoying this episode, then this is a great time to remind you that my work here at Clothesh is made possible by the support of listeners like you. Just like NPR and these great small businesses. Please go give them your support. Blank CAS or Blanket Coats by cas is focused on restoring, renewing and reviving the history held within vintage and heirloom textiles by embodying the love, craft and energy that is original to each vintage textile. As I transfer it into a new garment, I hope we can reteach ourselves to care for and mend what we have, have and make it last. Blank CAS lives on Instagram at Blancas and a website will be Launched [e-mail] Located in Whistler, Canada, Velvet Underground is a velvet jungle full of vintage and secondhand clothing plants, a vegan cafe and lots of rad products from other small sustainable businesses. Our mission is to create a brand new and community dedicated to promoting self expression as well as educating and inspiring a more sustainable and conscious lifestyle both for the people and the planet. Find us on Instagram shopvelvetunderground or online at www.shopvelvetunderground.com. st. Evens is a New York City based vintage shop that is dedicated to bringing you those special pieces you'll reach for again and again. More than just a store, St. Evens is dedicated sharing the stories and history behind the garments. 10% of all sales are donated to a different charitable organization each month. New Vintage is released every [e-mail] with previews of new pieces and more brought to you on Instagram at Wearst Evens. That's where St Evans Country Feedback is a mom and pop record shop in Tarboro, North Carolina. They specialize in used rock, country and Seoul and offer affordable vintage clothing and housewares. Do you have used records you want to sell? Country Feedback wants to buy them? Find us on Instagram, Country Feedback, Vintage and vinyl or head down east and visit our brick and mortar. All are welcome at this inclusive and family friendly record shop in the country. Republica Unicornia Yarns Handmade yarn and notions for the color obsessed. Made with love and some swearing in fabulous Atlanta, Georgia by head yarn wench Kathleen get ready for rainbows with a side of giving a damn. Republica Unicornia is all about making your own magic using small batch, responsibly sourced hand dyed yarns and thoughtfully made notions. Slow fashion all the way down and discover the joy of creating your very own beautiful hand dynamic knit, crocheted or woven pieces. Find us on Instagram @republicaunicorniarns and at www.republicaunicornia.com. picnic Wear a slow fashion brand ethically made by hand from vintage and dead stock materials, most notably vintage towels. Founder Dani has worked in the industry as a fashion Designer for over 10 years, but started Picnic Wear in response to her dissatisfaction with the industry's shortcomings. Picnic Wear recently moved to rural North Carolina where all their sewing and accessories are now designed and cut, but the majority of their sewing is done by skilled garment workers in New York City. Their customers take comfort in knowing that all their sewists are paid well above New York City minimum wage. Picnic Wear offers minimal waste and maximum authenticity. Future Vintage over future garbage Cute Little Ruin is an online shop dedicated to providing quality vintage and secondhand clothing, vinyl and home items in a wide range of styles and price points. If it's ethical and legal, we try to find a home for it. Vintage style with progressive values. Find us on Instagram utelittleruin Is there a little bit of Italy in your soul? Are you an enthusiast of pre loved decor and accessories? Bring vintage Italian style and history into your space with the pewter thimble. We source useful and beautiful things and.

[Amanda]

Mend them where needed.

[Narrator/Announcer]

We also find gorgeous illustrations and make them print worthy tarot cards, tea towels and hand picked treasures. Available to you from the comfort of your own home. Responsibly sourced from across Rome, lovingly renewed by fairly paid artists and artisans with something for every budget. Discover more at theputerthimble.com Deco Denim is a startup based out of San Francisco. And it sells clothing and accessories that are sustainable, gender fluid, size inclusive, and high quality, made to last for years to come. Deco Denim is trying to change the way you think about buying clothes. Founder Sarah Mattis wants to empower people to ask important questions like, where was this made? Was this garment made ethically? Is this fabric made of plastic? Can this garment be upcycled? And if not, can it be recycled? Sign [e-mail] to receive $20 off your first purchase. They promise not to spam you and send out no more than three emails a month with two of them surrounding education or a personal note from the founder. Again, that's decodenim.com.

[Amanda]

So I thought, Dani, like, we could talk about how we could not buy crappy sweaters. Like, what should we look out for?

[Dani]

I think that where this starts, like, anything is education. So obviously, like, what we've just talked about is hopefully helping you, like, helping demystify things a little bit. But I also think that there's, like, something to just, like, just looking at garments and turning things inside out and questioning things yourself. And. And like I always say this when. When you have something in your closet that's been there for years and years and years, and you continue to wear it and you continue to love it. Like, question, why? What is it about it? Is it the aesthetic? Is it, like, you know, has it, like, held up really well? Turn it inside out, look at the seams. How is it made? Like, you don't have to be a fashion designer to be interested in how things, like, garments are made. And I think that that's kind of one thing. Over time, like, some of my most, like, memorable moments, like at fit, for example, was when we got to go to the FIT museum and they showed us garments, like, beautifully made garments, and just, like, seeing how things were made and like, what makes a well made garment well made is something that you can just learn on your own by, like, going to vintage stores, thrift stores. Go to an expensive store, and you might see things in there and you're like, holy crap. Like the video you were referring to earlier, like, they pulled out a Raimi brook dress or whatever, and we're looking at it in detail now. They're like, how is this any different than something at ZARA yet it's $400, you know, like, those are things that, like, you should just always be questioning and looking at. You know, it's hard because even in a thrift store, there's so much to see. So we're all just, like, flipping through so fast. But if something catches your eye and you stop on it, and maybe it's not something you want to wear, it's not your size, but you're like, why am I responding to this? Why is this so beautiful? Like, think about it. Like, how were the seams made? Like, how is it finished inside? Like, what are the things that to you make it feel good quality? Like, break it down yourself. You can do it. I believe in you. So that's my number one thing is, like, because, like, you know, I think you mentioned this before, like, price is not a deciding factor on whether something's good quality or not.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I mean, I actually have some examples that I found on the Internet for us, because I do think, and I get it. I hear. I see this being repeated all the time online, and I know that, like, we've had it kind of drilled into us from a young age. The idea out there, the thinking is that if it's a higher price, it must be better, must be better quality. And sure, I think that there were times where that was true. That is definitely not the case in this century. And, you know, like, we see $5,000 designer dresses from luxury brands that are 100% polyester. Like, it's just a different time. Right. And so we kind of have to be detectives when we buy something. So I pulled a couple examples from the Internet. I was like, I'm gonna go out and look for sweaters that are over $100 and kind of see. See what I'm getting. Like, what's. What's out there for us? And the theme was the same over and over again. The first sweater we have here is from free people. It's called the fireside tunic. It is $168. And I can tell you, you, it's a really cute sweater with, like, an intarsia pattern.

[Dani]

It is.

[Amanda]

It's, like, long.

[Dani]

The silhouette's really cute.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it's really cute. Right? And I bet that yarn is so yummy.

[Dani]

Oh, my God, it is so yummy. I can tell looking at it.

[Amanda]

I can tell, too. Yeah. And you look at this, and you're like, oh, this is obviously a really nice, high quality sweater. It's 168. It's super cute. Looks, yums, whatever. Here's the. Here's the thing on this. On the free people website and on most websites, but not all, you can to see the fiber content. Now, irl, if you were shopping in the store, I would urge you to look inside the garment. It Might be by the lower hem. But it is required by law here in the United States that any clothing that is imported into this country for sale, which at Free People or just about any other retailer. Right now, the vast majority, if not all of the clothing is imported into the United States. Right. It's made overseas. It is required by law that the tag inside the garment must show where it was made and what kind of fibers are used. If you're shopping and you don't see that, obviously thrifting is different. I cut a lot of tags out. I have scentsy skin. Okay. But like, if you are in a store buying something brand new and that tag is not there, this. That brand is up to some next level of fucking around.

[Dani]

I don't even know what to say.

[Amanda]

Right. Next level of shenanigans. Like, they're up to something because that's elite legal. So irl, you always want to be looking for that tag. And I sometimes look for it before I even start, like, feeling around because I don't want to get caught up in the emotion of it. But if you're shopping online, which a lot of us do, you should be able to go into, like, product details, product description, and figure out what the fiber is. If it's not there, then you need to email them. But I will tell you, if they're not telling you, it's definitely not a good story.

[Dani]

I also found from looking, doing the same sort of research myself, sometimes it's really hard to find, like, and that's purposeful. They make it such that it's hard to find the information about a garment. Like, they want you to just buy it based on the pictures.

[Amanda]

Totally. And most people do. Right. So read that stuff. It's there for a reason. Like I said, not all retailers are doing that the way they should be, but it's there. The other thing that you called out, which I think is really important too, Dani, is, is what people, what brands are saying in terms of country of origin. What did you find? Quite often.

[Dani]

Yeah. So I was finding specifically on the Free People website. I. And I can't remember where else, but it was basically just saying imported. It wasn't clarifying where it was imported from, which is like, it's really pretty shady, to be honest, because, like, if you think about it, like, it's just messed up. Because, like, the word imported sounds fancy. Let's be real. It sounds fancy. Oh, this is imported. But if it said made in China or made in Bangladesh, would it sound as fancy to you?

[Amanda]

Right. Right. And My guess is this particular sweater that we're looking at right now is probably made in China. Based on the fabric composition, the pricing. I'm like, this is the wheelhouse of China. So for sure, the fiber content Here on this $168 sweater, you look at it, you're like, oh, it's cozy, it's soft, it's cute. It's probably like wool cashmere, that kind of thing. You're like, it's gotta be a natural fiber because it's so yummy, right? 19% polyamide, which is like a plastic fiber. 9% polyester. Another plastic fiber, 1% elastane. That's for a little bit of stretch. Also a plastic fiber, 45% cotton. Okay, there's our natural fiber, 26% acrylic. So it is, is mostly plastic. Right. And probably it is 45% cotton. Solely to game the duty is my guess.

[Dani]

Yeah, I was just gonna say that. I can't remember if it was like, it has to be over 50% or whatever. But sometimes like the cheapness of the yarn overrides those high synthetic duties anyways. So if the yarn is like so, so cheap on its own, then they can afford the duties because it still makes it cheaper than if they use like a chief cotton yarn or something like that.

[Amanda]

Totally, totally. So the next one, this is something that really grinds my gears and I see it all the time. This is from and other stories, which I think people consider to be like a more high end brand as well, like free people. It's actually owned by H and M and all their stuff is made in the same factories as H and M's store stuff. It's like the same supply chain. This sweater says knitted sweater, responsible alpaca, responsible wool. It's got like sort of three dimensional dots all over is $129. And oh, I'm like, oh, wow, it's responsible alpaca and wool. Okay, this is great. Tell me more. Maybe I finally have found my sweater that is fully natural fibers composition, polyamide, 33% wool, 32% alpaca, 32% spandex, 3%. So it is, once again the most synthetic fibers are taking up a big part of this fiber content, but it's not. It's sold to you as an alpaca and wool sweater.

[Dani]

But also like, what the fuck does responsible mean?

[Amanda]

Such greenwashing, right?

[Dani]

Like tell me what responsible means because like I'm responsible for doing the dishes in my house. Like that doesn't make me like good at doing Dishes or something or, like, do them properly or, like, doesn't mean that I actually do them every day. Like I should. Like, responsible, like, means nothing.

[Amanda]

Okay, so I've been thinking about this a lot lately actually. The way the choices of words in greenwashing and like ethical washing campaigns really flip a little switch in our brain. They have evolved.

[Dani]

Yeah, but they've evolved so much.

[Amanda]

They have, they have. They can't say sustainable because people are being like, I don't know, it sounds boring.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

But if you say something like responsible or conscious or ethical or anything like that, it gives the customer it, like sort of unlocks this little part of their imagination that says that if I buy this, I am a responsible person. There's something about human nature where we kind of like one, we want to feel superior. Okay. And you know, we actually have to do a lot of work work to like undo that. Right. In our day to day lives. But we want to say, oh, I'm not like all those other irresponsible people out there. I bought this responsible sweater because I care. Right? Same thing. Like, I'm more conscious, like that kind of stuff. I really feel there is so much, like, I don't know, superiority that can be a part of the sustainable and slow fashion community that I work very hard to dismantle. I don't like it, but these brands play into that because they know human nature.

[Dani]

Yeah. They're taking advantage of you.

[Amanda]

Yeah, they are. They're manipulating you.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Okay, so the next sweater, this one's from madewell and it kind of reminded me of the Billy Crystal sweater. So I was like, okay, let's take a look here.

[Dani]

That's so true.

[Amanda]

Okay, so this one is actually, I think. No, the free people one was our most expensive one so far. This is our second most. It's $148 cable knit oversized sweater. Now first I'm gonna read the copy. And that came with it. There was a lot more cop. Right. I'm just gonna read you one sentence from it, but then I'll tell you the context already.

[Dani]

I can see it.

[Amanda]

Made of textural slub yarn. First off, what customer even knows what that means? That's some flim flammery. You and I know what that means. But a customer's like, I don't know, it sounds fancy. Made of textural slub yarn blended with responsible wool fibers.

[Dani]

Okay, hold on. We need to clarify. It doesn't just say responsible wool.

[Amanda]

Re is in parentheses.

[Dani]

Thank you.

[Amanda]

I was like, what are those things called? So it's responsible wool fibers. Ostensibly. I think. I don't know. I was looking at their site, and sometimes that can mean it's a recycled fiber, but sometimes it can mean that is like, more like ethically sourced or something. It's interesting that madewell and other stories are basically using the same word. Right. So responsible trending, everyone. Okay.

[Dani]

Yes.

[Amanda]

Okay. Responsible full fibers. It has a crew neck, an oversized fit, and drop shoulders. First of all, I don't even think the average customer knows what a drop shoulder is either.

[Dani]

No.

[Amanda]

Anyway, so you're like, hear this. And you're like, oh, so this is like a sustainable, ethical sweater. It's responsible and it's wool. It's 75% polyacrylic, 25% wool. It's not a wool sweater. You know, so I was telling you when you and I were prepping for this, like, on food labeling, it is the law that the first ingredient is what there's the most of in that food, and the last one is what there's the least amount. And in some of these, I have seen companies leading with the fancy fiber.

[Dani]

Oh, interesting. Yeah. I thought that was illegal.

[Amanda]

I know. It's just so. I don't. People. There's sketchiness going on across the Internet. So the last one I called out is this brand Cezanne, which has been coming up a lot in conversations about, like, sustainable ethical brands. It's sort of like. It sort of positions itself as, like, sustainable luxury. And it's French. And I found a cardigan on their site. Now, I will tell you, they did have some stuff on their site that was fully natural fibers. Right. It was a pretty good mix. So this could be an option for you if you're looking for natural fibers. Just read the content, because this sweater didn't look any different than the other sweater that was next to it. And that sweater was 100% cashmere. This one, the Anjali cardigan, is $150. And. Oh, my gosh, I made this way too small. I have to zoom in so I can read this. It is 33% mohair, 33% wool. Then something percent polyamide, and then that elastin. It's like in all the sweaters.

[Dani]

Yeah, I can explain that. That's typically in the cuffs.

[Amanda]

Ah, okay.

[Dani]

So in the first few courses of the cuffs and maybe the ribs of the hem too, so that it. It stays cinched together and, like, it prevents it from over time, stretching out.

[Amanda]

Interesting. Okay, so it's like a pretty good mix of synthetic and natural fibers. But, I mean, it's got a lot of polyamide in it. Like, it's. Yeah, it's. It's not gonna decompose, is what I'm saying. And the other thing that's important to call out is, I'm sure you noticed I'm throwing around all kinds of percentages in all these blends, even though a lot of them have the same assortment of fibers in them, and that renders them basically unrecyclable because there's, like. Yeah, I was just gonna say there's, like, too many blends, and I don't know how you separate them.

[Dani]

Anyway, it's funny you say that, because. Yeah, I've been doing, like, a workshop on circularity. If you're interested in having me speak conscious, contact me. But, yeah, so that is a big thing that's being like, talked about within circularity is mono materials versus multi materials. And so, yeah, all the sweaters you listed are multi materials. So, like, end of life cycle for these is basically the garbage because you. It's very, very difficult to recycle a blended material. But I actually met someone here in Danville, Virginia, who has a company called Circ, and there's a few companies who are emerging who are actually, like, pioneering technology where they can separate the fibers, which is pretty freaking cool, but that's a whole other thing. But right now, like, that. That for the most part, most of these things are just, like, there's just no way to. To properly recycle them.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah. It's just like a dead end, basically, you know?

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

I guess my question for you, Dani, is like, we know how this industry could be better, right? But, like, how for customers, like, if you come up on this and you've read all these content things, like we just did, what do you do? Like, what do you do next?

[Dani]

Well, I mean, it depends. Are you, like, do you need to buy a sweater?

[Amanda]

I mean, that's the number one question. Because I kind of wonder, right? Do you? Like, there were times when I would be managing sweaters at work, and I would be like, why do we keep.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Selling so many sweaters every year?

[Amanda]

How many sweaters these people have?

[Dani]

Yeah, I mean, like, I think I said this in, like, our first recording together, but, like, one of the, like, like, moments in my career where I was like, wow, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. To be a part of this was, like, when I had a very, quote, unquote, successful moment in my career, and I got a huge order placed against A style that I designed. And we're talking like, I mean, this was actually my. Our units were smaller when I was at Urban than they were later at Express, but It was like 40,000 units or something. It was like the, my biggest order at that point. And I was like, 40,000 units.

[Amanda]

Like, that is like, makes me squeeze my knees together in horror. You know, like 40,000 people were one. Were.

[Dani]

I mean, I mean, obviously a caveat to that is that, like, were we expecting to actually sell 40,000 units or were we buying 40,000 because it gave us a reduced price? Like, there's so many layers to that, but still, 40,000 were being produced. We're hoping that 40,000 people buy them. And that's one single sweater out of our entire assortment.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dani]

Why do you need so many gosh darn sweaters? Like, I, like, buy one sweater every couple of years, maybe more if I'm like, buying it at a vintage or something like that. But, like, I am a sweater designer and I am so passionate about knitwear and I, you know, know, I, I. A good example is like, when I moved to New York and I like, you know, my, my salary got vastly increased and I was like, I've never felt like I had the opportunity to like, to buy a nice piece of clothing for myself, when in reality I always actually, like, did have the money. I was just like, squandering it by buying things 40 off at Urban Outfitters whenever we got seriously, the discount, like, for real, like, even though, like, I didn't have a high salary, I could have just bought like 90% less than I already was and got, like, some really nice quality garments.

[Amanda]

The money we would. I would spend during employee appreciation, which is when we got 40% off of everything, including sale.

[Dani]

Yeah, Shameful. Yeah, I know. And so when I moved back to New York, I was like, I. They gave me a sign on bonus, and I was like, I'm gonna buy myself a really nice sweater that I'm gonna, like, wear for years to come. And guess what? That, that was 2015. It's 2023. And I wore that sweater yesterday because it's one of my favorite sweaters. And it's, you know, one of the buttons fell off and I have to find a new button to replace it with. And it's a little bit pilly, but, like, it's still delicious and I love it. And that was like, a big learning experience for me in how I shopped, because. Because I had that for years and I still love it.

[Amanda]

Yeah. I mean, I think that is? That's a great question to ask yourself. Do I really need a sweater? And how many sweaters do I need? And really consolidating that spending into a couple really key pieces.

[Dani]

Yeah, yeah. And, like, and always asking the question to yourselves that I am constantly saying, like, is this future vintage or future garbage? And somebody asked me in an interview recently, like, how do you decipher the difference between, like, an item that's trendy or an item that's just, like. I can't remember how they put it. Just, like, really special and, like, exciting and, like, only you can decide that. That is only for you to decide. Because if something is trendy now, but you freaking love it and you're going to wear it five years from now, then it's not. Then you're not like, subscribing to the trend. You saw something that you liked and you bought it, you know, but if you're gonna only like it for a season and next year you're not gonna wear it again, then, yeah, it's probably a trend that you should dismiss. But, like, some of my favorite items in my closet I have had for decades, and I still look at them and I get excited and I get butterflies. So I think, like, personal style and knowing what. What really excites you and looking at your closet and thinking, like, what are things that have been in here for a while and why is, like, the best way that you can approach shopping? And if somebody, like, shares something, a small business or something, and you, like, fricking love it, and like, a week later you still love it, and, like, months later you still love it, like, that's probably a good sign that it's something that, like, you'll love for many years and will end up being, like, future vintage hanging in your closet, or fold it in your closet.

[Amanda]

Sorry, don't hang it. We don't like that. It gives you your own weird drop shoulder, actually. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think that's really great advice. And I think it's also a good transition into talking about your sweater collection, Dani, because we've talked for, like, two hours now about why and how sweaters have been sort of. This is a term people use to describe apps, and I really like it how they've been inshitified, you know?

[Dani]

Oh, I've never heard that.

[Amanda]

Yeah, yeah. It's like the inshitification of Instagram, etc, and, like, nowhere has this phenomenon been more obvious in the world of clothing. And so, you know, you have, like, had to make these difficult decisions over the years that basically just diluted your vision. Right. And probably like, I mean, they, they suppress your creativity.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

You know, and they're depressing. You get depressed. I think. I mean, there are many reasons why working in fashion is really, really hard mentally, specifically like on your. How detrimental it is for your mental health. But one of those things is you go in with this creative vision and you never actually get to execute it. Right. Because of all the things we talked about. So now you have your own brand and this year you made sweaters. So why don't you tell me like, about why they are different and you know, why you made the decisions that you made made.

[Dani]

Yeah. Thank you. I'd love to talk about them. I actually, when I like decided on the name Picnic Wear for my brand, it was like my desire for it was for it to be a sweater brand. But when I looked in, like I did some like domestic factory like tours and stuff and I realized like, financially I would not be able to do it. But it was always a dream of mine to be actually able to design a super tight collection of sweaters that were without the restraints of what the industry like my jobs had been pushing on me and, and all that dumbing down that you speak of. So, and through talking to people, like, I felt like so many people were like, why can't I find a cotton sweater anymore? Which tell me I'm wrong. From our research, like, it is very hard to find a cotton sweater.

[Amanda]

Yeah. And yeah, I didn't find one at all, by the way.

[Dani]

Neither.

[Amanda]

Not one. Yeah. Like, I went through so many sites and I didn't see a single one anywhere. And I, you know what I'm going to tell you, like, early in my career we still had cotton sweaters. Even at Urban Outfitters.

[Dani]

Totally. For sure. And. But I think, like back to the like weight conversation there, I think that that's a big part of it. Like, you know, synthetic fibers can be like we said, really lofty and light and therefore cheap. Whereas, like cotton is pretty naturally heavy. Like, there's so many different things you can do with a fiber. So like, it doesn't have to be. But generally speaking it gets quite a bit heavier than a synthetic yarn does. So it just ends up being more expensive. So like a lot of people think of cotton, like, oh, a cotton sweater should be cheap because it's cotton. Which is a little twisted. But in reality me, it's like it's. That's not the case at all. But yeah, I felt like it was true. There aren't a lot of cotton sweaters out there, and I totally respect that some people don't like wool as much as I do. And as much as I, you know, I designed this collection, and it was produced in Peru. And as much as I wanted to use, like, alpaca, I was like, oh, gosh. Like, I know that so many people have issues with wool, so I was like, like, you know, cotton is just lovely and feels amazing. But, of course, true to the ethos of my brand, I only use materials or vastly only use materials that are existing. And so I teamed up with the Endere, who sources dead stock yarn that's otherwise destined for the landfill, and they rescue it, and they. And they're already dyed because it's literally leftover from a doll factory.

[Amanda]

That's incredible. Also, just, like, who doesn't love a nice doll factory leftover? I love it.

[Dani]

Exactly. I'm imagining that these. I haven't actually seen the dolls, but I'm imagining, like, they're, like a knitted Peruvian doll type thing, not like a plastic doll or something, obviously, because it's cotton, but, like, the. What was great about that is that because they're dolls, they're all these amazing colors. And of course, I gravitate towards colors, and I feel like when you look at the landscape of sweaters out there, it's actually very hard to find, like, a beautiful, brightly knit, like, statement sweater. So. And I also, like, I was really inspired by the towels that I've collected over the years. So each sweater is inspired by a different towel that I love the graphic of. And the process was just really cool. Cool and fun because. Well, first of all, it took a year and a half, which is, like, very slow, but, like, you know, it was very thoughtful and. But, yeah. So when the time came that I had to color the sweaters, they told me what. Which colors were available, and I had to work with what was available. So I am so psyched on the color combo that I came up with. But it's even cooler to think that, like, I was making them out of just, like, what was. I didn't have, like, a paint box of colors where I could mix and match or whatever. It was like, I was restricted to a certain color palette, which was just like. Probably one of my favorite things about being an upcycle designer is, is that creativity that it pushes you to have. Have to, like, push your boundaries and think outside of the box. It's not like, oh, I'm sitting at my desk and dreaming up this thing, and it's gonna have a huge ruffle. It's like, what can I do with the materials that are in front of me? And that's so much more fun.

[Amanda]

It really is. I feel like it, like, helps you. It makes you more innovative, but I think it also helps to, like, have yourself sort of hemmed in. And it, like, makes you able to be more creative, you know?

[Dani]

Yeah. And it's like, weirdly having those parameters, like, those boundaries are kind of like, put you in this, like, safe, cozy space where you know, like, what you're working with. And it's like. Cause sometimes having, like, the sky's the limit is like, impossible to like. To like, put yourself in that position where, like, you could literally do anything. So having those restrictions are, like. Are very inspiring to me.

[Amanda]

Yeah, it really is. It really is. These sweaters are on your site right now for purchase, and they're all 100% cotton. If someone just is inspired by our conversation to go buy one of these sweaters from you, how can they best take care of it to extend its life?

[Dani]

I mean, to be honest, I don't really wash my sweaters much. I, like, pretty rarely do. But I've also had like, like moth situation. So maybe I'm not the best person to ask for with that. But basically, hand or machine wash, cold. And what you should be doing with all your sweaters is not putting them in the dryer and not hanging them to dry. What you need to do is, is lay them flat. So oftentimes I'll like, lay out a towel on the ground or something. Or like, I personally, I bought these. This like, hanging mechanism thing that's like these mesh, layers of mesh. So when I'm washing sweaters, because I often, like, will purchase and wash, like, vintage sweaters, I will lay them on that. So it's laying flat, but it has, like, the. A place for the air to, like, circulate and let the moisture drip out. So, yeah, I mean, that's not hard. Like, laying something on a towel is certainly not hard. But I would also say, like, just don't wash them that much. They're not gonna stink the way a synthetic sweater does.

[Amanda]

It's true. It's true. I mean, honestly, like, it's interest. The irony is never lost on me that we have so much synthetic clothing now. Right. That makes you stinky that you have to wash more often. That also doesn't hold up to washing. It's like a cycle. Right? I mean, it's like there's.

[Dani]

Yeah, it's so true.

[Amanda]

There's all this like planned obsolescence in clothing that's kind of like accidental planned obsolescence. Like we've never, I've never sat in a meeting and said, the great news is that this is going to be such low quality that they'll have to buy another one. Right. But it just is.

[Dani]

That's a really good point.

[Amanda]

Yeah.

[Dani]

What's interesting is actually like we like at Express, we did like wear testing to make sure the stuff would withstand like friction and wear, et cetera. And I was just like, this is really twisted what we're doing. It's like we don't know what kind of brand we want to be because like we're like not sourcing fibers that will last a long time. We're wanting our customers to purchase over and over again, but we want to make sure that they last too. Like, did these people just have never ending closets to contain all their clothes?

[Amanda]

I mean, I think that's part of it. Right. It's like this is also the era of like plenty of stores who have opened like the Container Store to help you organize all the stuff you overbought. But it is interesting because I've worked a lot of places that did wear testing and it was almost like we want people to just be able to wear it long enough that they won't be mad when it stops being nice anymore.

[Dani]

That's a really good point.

[Amanda]

And it's about that point that probably sums it up. Yeah. And so it's true. We never sat around and we're like, I think honestly, as you know, when I would be working on wear test stuff as a buyer, I wasn't thinking like, oh, we just want this to hang on long enough. But I actually was like, I'm doing the best job I can to put the, the best stuff out there for our customer. Like, I really felt that way. It's just that's not how it ends up working out. Right.

[Dani]

And the big difference between like planned obsolescence in like the technology world or whatever and in the fashion world, it's more perceived obsolescence. So we're relying on the perceived obsolescence like on paper, not necessarily like it being uncool now versus it, like, like being broken is what's being like really.

[Amanda]

Pushed a bit more thoughtfully.

[Dani]

Not that that's really like considered so much, but like by this endless cycle of trends. That is what we're doing.

[Amanda]

So it is, it is. It's so weird to think about. Like, I think that's the, the thing, like When I talk about all of this stuff and the evils of fast fashion, it's like, I always want to call out that the mass. Vast majority of people working in this industry are people like me and you, who we have the best intentions, and we want to do the best things. And we are also trying to survive as well, because you know what? We're not paid well. We're overworked. As my career progressed, it was like I was doing the jobs of three or four or five people, you know, because the company didn't want to spend the money, and our benefits were bad, and yet we still were. Like, if we don't hit these numbers in terms of profitability and sales, we won't have a job next year. And so you're just trying to survive, and it's only, like, when you get to step outside of it, like, you and I have had that luxury of doing that, you start to see how broken it all is.

[Dani]

That's a really, really good point. Yeah, for sure.

[Amanda]

Like, we weren't in there. Like, let's make the worst sweaters ever.

[Dani]

No.

[Amanda]

No. Well, thank you so much, Dani. This was so fun. Thank you.

[Dani]

Can I. I just want to say one more thing to your audience.

[Amanda]

Okay. Okay.

[Dani]

I don't know how to put this, because I don't want to make you, like, uncomfortable, but, like, I just think that I want to thank you for, like, opening up this community and giving people a platform to speak. And, like, you do such hard. I'm, like, seriously going to get emotional. Amanda, you just.

[Amanda]

Oh, my God, you're going to make me cry.

[Dani]

And, like, I'll be honest, like, over the. Like, I've been a Patreon subscriber for you from the beginning, and there have been periods of time where I'm like, oh, my God. I'm literally like, I can't afford this anymore. But I'm always like, no, Amanda is always doing the work. She never stops. It doesn't freaking matter. And I will say, I've had. Over the years, even though it's been years since I was on your podcast, like, I've had people come to me and say, like, oh, I learned about you from Clothes Horse. And I just. Like, the community that you've brought together is just really wonderful. And so, like, even though I've had those moments where I'm like, like, oh, can I afford this anymore? I'm like, no, it is so important to me that Amanda is doing this work. And, like, I just. I just. Everyone, like, if you can, like, support Amanda on. If you like, listen to this podcast a lot, like, I'm like, seriously about to cry. Like, really, like, please support her, Patreon.

[Amanda]

Thank you.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Thank you.

[Amanda]

That means a lot to me, Dani. I know. I mean, I'm so grateful for all of you small businesses who support me. And honestly, at this point, like, that is what has kept Clothes Horse going. Because it's expensive to do this. It's not just like, I talk in a microphone and I don't get paid for this label, regardless of like the.

[Dani]

Money you put in it. Like, you're. You put so much time and energy and expertise and. And like, heart, like, you put so much frickin heart into this.

[Amanda]

I do, I do. I'm glad. You know what, Dani? I'm like, so grateful that you said that, even though I feel, like, really embarrassed right now. But it is true and it feels really important to me to have your support and have you recognize that. And you know, there are so many people, you included, who have become my friends thanks to clotheshorse, you know, and so for me, it's been this amazing phenomenon that was born out of of. I wouldn't say it was one of the darkest times of my life. The darkest time of my life was the, like, you know, few months after my partner died and before Dylan was born. That was like a time I'm not excited to ever repeat. But the months surrounding when I started Clothes Horse were hard. I mean, for like, for so many of us. You know, it was 2020. I'd lost my job. We had to move out of the city because we couldn't afford to live there anymore. I didn't know what was going to happen next. I was so afraid of getting sick and dying, you know, like, so fearful all the time. And all the stuff was going on with the election. It was just like a really intense time.

[Dani]

Yeah. Such a horrible time.

[Amanda]

And back then I would make two episodes a week because I was like, we all need each other right now, but I also need to do this.

[Dani]

Yeah. It was like. It was your survival mode.

[Amanda]

It was my survival mode. Yeah.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

And it has changed over the years. Right. Like, I. I am Clotheshorse. Right. And doing this work is really important to my happiness and my faith and optimism in the world. But it is also like work. You know, when I started this, I didn't have a job.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Most of the time I have had a job. And this has been like, what I do instead of relaxing, making friends. But it's important to me. And I think, you know, the Same thing goes for, like, you and all the other small makers in our community. All of you who, like, I mean, you worked so hard on these sweaters. You're all working so hard to do things right when so many people will tell us, myself included, why do you care so much? Why do you work so hard to do it right? Why do you care? Why are you even engaging with that person or sharing information with them or helping them out or whatever else it is? And it is because we all believe in the same thing.

[Dani]

Yeah. And it's because it's like, if I don't care, then who fricking will?

[Amanda]

That's how I feel. Like I said a couple months ago, I was like, I just don't think I can do closed source anymore. Like, it's so exhausting what people expect from me and the microscope I'm under and just, like, the labor I'm doing for everybody every day. I was like, I don't think I can do it anymore. And then I was like, if. Well, first off, Dustin was like, that's, like, not even an option, so you just need to stop thinking that way. Which, I mean, how lucky am I to have a partner who feels that way? Um, but I was like, if I don't do this, who will?

[Dani]

Yeah, you know, exactly.

[Amanda]

So I'm gonna keep doing it. But thank you. Thank you. Your kind words, really. Yeah, they really mean a lot to me. I'm trying not to get all, like, choked up, but thank you.

[Dani]

I mean it from the bottom of my heart, and I know so many other listeners feel that way.

[Amanda]

It's really nice to hear it. You know how it is. You get one troll y message, and that eclipses the, like, 100 kind messages you've received in the last year. Man, I hate that.

[Dani]

That's why I started, like, screenshotting the positive messages. And I have, like, a folder in my photos of my phone. So, like, when I get one of those trolls, I, like, look through there.

[Amanda]

And I'm like, okay, same. I have a folder for nice emails that I get from people at the Close Force account. And I, like, I always tell people, like, thank you for this. I'm gonna put this in my folder. Yeah. Because, like, sometimes I need that. It is a weird world that when people will come and fight with you about, like, fast fashion.

[Dani]

Yes, for sure.

[Amanda]

Thank you so much to Dani for taking all of that time to share her expertise and everything else with us. Right now, Dani is in the process of finalizing her first ever sewing pattern called the Deja vu dress. I am really excited for this to go on sale because it's a really cool baby doll dress. Very versatile. It's the best silhouette silhouette in my opinion. And the pattern is actually being designed with upcycled textiles in mind. I'm definitely buying it as soon as it goes on sale because I think.

[Narrator/Announcer]

It'Ll be a good, you know, middle.

[Amanda]

Of winter doldrums kind of project. If you're interested in learning more about the sewing pattern. I know as I speak, I'm pretty sure the testing process has begun. Or if you want to see Dani's incredible sweaters, be sure to give her a follow on Instagram. I would suspect that the vast majority of you already do that. But just in case you'll find her as at picnicwear. You know, this is me speaking off the cuff here. I didn't write anything down for this, but it was on my mind as I was editing. Like, I've forgotten about the last. The last thing that Dani brought up about supporting Clothes Horse. And I thought about editing it out because I was, you know, this is so silly. But a few years ago, someone on Reddit complained that when people called in to the hotline or sent audio essays and they mentioned how much they loved closed source or said something complimentary or nice in it, that the fact that I kept that in was really annoying to them. And I was like, oh, my God, like, the last thing I want to be is annoying. And so I started cutting that stuff out. And then one day I sort of had this reckoning of, like, people. People say those things because they want people to hear them, right? And so I started putting that stuff back in. And you know what? I am grateful that Dani brought that up because I'm not good at bringing that stuff up. And I also sometimes feel embarrassed by how much passion and work and thought and time that I put into Close Horse. Whether it's these episodes every week, all the content on social media, or the time I spend responding to your messages and answering your questions, you know, the time I spend thinking about, like, what's next and how I can do more for the community and to lift up slow fashion and to lift up small businesses, right? So I guess I'm glad that Dani brought it up. You know, I've been really. And I'm sure a lot of you are feeling the same way right now. I'm really. It's really hard every week to sit down and work on clotheshores because I think about what's going on right now in Gaza it's one of many, many horrible things happening around the world. I mean, we can't forget about what's happening in the Congo. We can't forget about what's happening in China with the Uyghur Muslims and so many other just horrible, horrible things happening around the world. So many things that, that it's hard for me to see how I can help. Right? And that's hard in itself. It's an emotionally really difficult place to be when you're like, I know this is wrong and I don't know what I personally can do to help. And the best thing we can do.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Is.

[Amanda]

Continue to advocate for what is right and to reach out to our elected officials and make our voices known and to have conversations with people in real life and when we have the money to send the money, you know, I suppose really everything, all of the bad things in the world, including what we talk about with fast fashion and the system of exploitation that fuels that industry, that all of these things we have to, we have to have that same approach, that same perspective of like, I feel overwhelmed. I don't know how I can. Can make an impact as one person and recognize that we can, especially when we're all making that effort together at the same time. And there will be times where we feel, we feel like nothing good is coming of that work, that we feel frustrated, that we feel that the decisions are not in our hands. I know a lot of you are feeling that way right now. I certainly am about many things, honestly. And the past month or so I've been kind of like, why am I making clothes horse when the world is falling apart, when there are so many people suffering right now, right? So many people are losing their loved ones, they're losing their lives themselves. They're experiencing trauma and starvation and pain and illness. And it gets really hard sometimes, right, to see, to see why I would work on Clotheshorse during that time period. And then I have to remember that all of the other bad stuff in the world doesn't stop because one bad thing is happening right now. Because as we've seen over the past few years, it's just so many, so many people suffering around the world, animals suffering around the world, the planet suffering around the world as a result of so many bad things happening all the time. And I can't sit out clothes horse even if it feels hard sometimes because things don't change if we don't continue to talk about these things, right? And what's, and what's going badly in the world and the Voice of One can motivate so many other people to do the things that I was saying, like to reach out to our elected representatives, to have difficult conversations with other people, to share information, to give the money when we can. All of these things, right? One voice leads to two voices, leads to four voices, leads to eight voices on any issue. And I can't stop talking about the effects of fast fashion and fast everything because one, they're not going to go away if we stop talking about them. They might even get worse. And I feel like we're in such a place right now where we're making a lot of progress, even though it feels slow. When I look back in hindsight, I see the progress and I don't want to. I don't want us to lose that, you know? So I'm going to keep making clothes horse. I'm going to keep talking about these things in the midst of so many other things that keep me up at night, that make me cry, that make me just take those moments where I feel like I can't even breathe because the enormity of the pain, the suffering of others makes it feel like I can feel. It makes me feel like I feel those feelings, too. Right? It's visceral. So, yeah, if you are feeling the same way where you. You don't know where you fit in, where you make a difference, how to cope with the enormity of what's happening in Gaza or what's happening in China or what's happening anywhere else in the world right now, I want you to know that all of us feel the same way. And I will be there to support you through that. This community will be there to support me and you through all of this. And we will all.

[Narrator/Announcer]

We will all see things get better.

[Amanda]

But we have to stick it out. And giving up, staying quiet, stepping away, it isn't going to change that. So, yeah. Thank you for listening to another episode of Closed Source. If you liked what you heard, you can leave a rating, maybe even a review on Apple Podcasts. And most importantly, you can tell your friends that's how change happens, right? We need a lot of people, and we start with the people around us. I like to think of us all as these little tiny circles surrounded by other circles, and when they join our circle, it's a bigger circle, and soon all these big circles start overlapping, and then it's one big circle. That's what I picture when I close my eyes and I think about the power of community and care and support. So, yeah, tell your friends to listen to clotheshorse. That was some really convoluted way around that. If you would like to support my work financially, which I will would, you have no idea how much I would appreciate that. You can learn [e-mail] closehorsepodcast. You can also take advantage of the Apple Premium subscription, where you get access to the complete archives of Close Horse. But most importantly, even if you've heard all those episodes a hundred times, it's a really easy way to support my work here. And there are other ways you can support me. You can find all that on Instagram in my bio there there. Last but not least, of course, thank you as always to Justin Travis White for our music and audio support and.

[Narrator/Announcer]

See you all next week.

[Dani]

Sam.