Winston Marshall | Club Random with Bill Maher

Summary

Podcast Summary: Club Random with Bill Maher – Episode Featuring Winston Marshall

Episode Title: Winston Marshall | Club Random
Release Date: April 13, 2025
Host: Bill Maher
Guest: Winston Marshall

---

1. Introduction

In this episode of Club Random with Bill Maher, host Bill Maher engages in a deep and candid conversation with Winston Marshall, the renowned musician from Mumford & Sons. The discussion delves into the complexities of cancel culture, woke ideology, societal changes, and personal experiences of public criticism. Their dialogue offers insightful perspectives on navigating a world increasingly polarized by political correctness and cultural shifts.

---

2. Winston Marshall on Cancel Culture and Initial Reactions

[01:50 – 04:17]

Winston Marshall opens up about his initial feelings when he became a target of cancel culture. Reflecting on his experience of purchasing "Unmasked" by Andy Ngo, a conservative journalist, Marshall shares:

Winston Marshall [01:50]: "My initial feeling was I was contrite. I was like, maybe I've done something wrong. Like maybe I've got this wrong. I don't know everything about this."

Bill Maher empathizes, acknowledging the difficulty of facing intense public scrutiny:

Bill Maher [02:04]: "It's hard. It's hard not to feel."

---

3. The 2020 Surge of Wokeism and BLM Protests

[03:37 – 06:56]

The conversation shifts to the peak of woke ideology during 2020, coinciding with the COVID-19 pandemic and the Black Lives Matter (BLM) protests following George Floyd's death. Marshall critiques the binary nature of support for BLM, highlighting incidents like Hanson’s delayed black square social media posts:

Winston Marshall [04:45]: "Just putting it one day... they got hounded for it. Just putting it one day. [...] That's Peak Woke Crazy."

Maher echoes this sentiment, recalling the absurdity of enforcing participation through social norms:

Bill Maher [05:04]: "You ever see Mean Girls? We all wear pink on Wednesdays. And if you don't put the black square yeah, that's just crazy."

Marshall emphasizes the irrational responses during that period, noting the extensive damage from protests and looting:

Winston Marshall [05:47]: "The protests, billions of dollars of damage... in the name of black lives, all of this damage was done."

---

4. Vandalism Against Electric Vehicles and Elon Musk’s Role

[06:56 – 11:21]

Discussing recent incidents of vandalism against Tesla cars, Marshall raises concerns about the underlying motivations, suggesting a resurgence of anarchism:

Winston Marshall [06:56]: "There was one case in Arizona where a driver pulled in front of, I think it was a Cybertruck and started beating up the person who was driving."

Maher connects these acts to broader societal frustrations, criticizing both the left and right for their extreme reactions:

Bill Maher [07:28]: "I totally can understand how a government worker might be so infuriated that they key a Tesla. [...] You can't sanction it."

The dialogue touches on the influence of Elon Musk, with Maher expressing disillusionment:

Bill Maher [07:54]: "The idea of going through the government and making it more efficient... it was horrendous."

Marshall and Maher discuss the potential escalation of such actions, especially in a gun-armed society, underscoring the dangers of lawlessness:

Marshall [11:43]: "In America, people carry guns. So if you drive a Tesla, I would now carry a gun."

---

5. Reflections on Past Cancellations and Public Perception

[24:06 – 37:43]

Marshall recounts the backlash he faced when his band member Winston Marshall apologized for endorsing Andy Ngo’s book, leading to intense media scrutiny and personal turmoil:

Winston Marshall [27:12]: "So that's what happened. These sheep, crows all flew away."

Maher draws parallels between their experiences, discussing the emotional toll of being cancelled:

Bill Maher [61:00]: "It's hard not to feel when the whole country... turns the white hot light."

They explore the lasting impact of cancellations on their careers and personal lives, with Marshall emphasizing the disconnect between media narratives and public perception:

Winston Marshall [44:07]: "It seems absolutely ridiculous now. And it was ridiculous at the time."

---

6. The Role of Multiculturalism and Social Cohesion in Modern Britain

[69:00 – 75:16]

Marshall shifts focus to societal issues in Britain, discussing the challenges of multiculturalism and the erosion of a unified national identity. He highlights the massive net migration and its impact on social cohesion:

Winston Marshall [71:07]: "We've had terrible problems of social cohesion... we can't even identify what it is to be British anymore."

Maher relates these issues to broader global trends, questioning the integration of diverse cultures:

Bill Maher [72:10]: "I think it's also relevant that Trump... the Trump administration is disappearing people... just like what dictatorships around the world do."

Marshall expresses concern over the lack of historical awareness, particularly regarding communism and its atrocities:

Winston Marshall [75:04]: "We know well over 100 million people were killed. It's still not seen as evil."

---

7. The Need for Moral Codes and Community in a Secular World

[75:16 – 76:22]

Both hosts discuss the necessity of maintaining moral codes and community structures in an increasingly secular and technologically advanced society. Marshall underscores the importance of aligning decision-making processes:

Winston Marshall [75:16]: "People still need to know how to act... we need to align ourselves somehow."

Maher adds that emerging technologies like AI and robotics could further complicate moral and ethical frameworks:

Bill Maher [75:16]: "I don't see people being big into God when you got the robot there."

---

8. Media Influence and Platforming Diverse Voices

[89:56 – 105:42]

The conversation turns to the role of media and platforms in shaping public discourse. Marshall criticizes mainstream media’s selective reporting, using the delay in covering UK grooming gangs as an example:

Winston Marshall [88:18]: "Media classes, they've all been complicit in this cover up."

Maher discusses the influence of figures like Elon Musk in bringing neglected issues to the forefront, highlighting the asymmetric power between grassroots movements and media giants:

Bill Maher [89:56]: "It's as big as if the New York Times had covered it more."

They debate the balance between platforming controversial figures and maintaining responsible editorial standards, with Marshall advocating for open dialogue:

Winston Marshall [105:07]: "It's the inversion of virtue signaling. It's vice signaling."

Maher emphasizes the importance of not contributing to the spread of harmful ideologies, citing his refusal to host guests like Kanye West:

Bill Maher [107:51]: "I had nothing to do with the controversy but I just don't want to contribute to what Kanye's putting out there."

---

9. Future Outlook: Hope for Moderate Voices and Community Engagement

[96:00 – 99:16]

Marshall remains optimistic about the potential for moderate voices within the Muslim community to foster better relations and combat extremism. He points to initiatives like the Abraham Accords as signs of positive change:

Winston Marshall [96:00]: "I'm very encouraged by the Abraham Accords. Trump achieved in this first term."

Maher concurs, recognizing the importance of integrating moderate perspectives to prevent theocracy and maintain democratic values:

Bill Maher [96:22]: "They have to be brought into that way of thinking."

Marshall emphasizes the role of leaders and community members in driving this transformation:

Winston Marshall [96:51]: "They're better at calling out Islamism in the west than we in the west are at doing it."

---

10. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a mutual appreciation between Bill Maher and Winston Marshall for each other's efforts in challenging prevailing narratives and fostering open dialogue. Marshall acknowledges the importance of platforms like Maher’s in providing space for honest conversations:

Winston Marshall [123:50]: "Thank you so much."

Maher reiterates his commitment to facilitating discussions that transcend political and cultural silos, advocating for a more balanced and nuanced media landscape.

---

Notable Quotes

• Winston Marshall [01:50]: "My initial feeling was I was contrite. I was like, maybe I've done something wrong."
• Bill Maher [05:04]: "We all wear pink on Wednesdays. And if you don't put the black square yeah, that's just crazy."
• Winston Marshall [05:47]: "In the name of black lives, all of this damage was done."
• Bill Maher [07:28]: "I'm mocking... It's so complicated."
• Winston Marshall [24:06]: "I bought 'Unmasked' by Andy Ngo... I recommended it."
• Bill Maher [61:00]: "It's hard not to feel when the whole country... turns the white hot light."
• Winston Marshall [71:07]: "We can't even identify what it is to be British anymore."
• Winston Marshall [88:18]: "They have to be taken off the street... it's a cover-up."
• Bill Maher [107:51]: "I just don't want to contribute to what Kanye's putting out there."

---

Key Takeaways

• Cancel Culture: Both hosts discuss the personal and professional impacts of cancel culture, highlighting the emotional strain and public backlash faced by individuals like Winston Marshall.

• Woke Ideology: The conversation critiques the extremes of wokeism, particularly its role in heightening social tensions and enforcing rigid social norms.

• Media Responsibility: Emphasis is placed on the selective nature of media reporting and the importance of responsible platforming to prevent the spread of harmful ideologies.

• Multicultural Challenges: The episode explores the difficulties of maintaining social cohesion in multicultural societies, using Britain as a primary example.

• Hope for Moderation: Despite the challenges, there is optimism about the role of moderate voices and initiatives like the Abraham Accords in fostering positive change.

• Moral and Ethical Frameworks: The necessity of maintaining moral codes and community structures in an evolving, secular, and technologically advanced society is underscored.

---

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of contemporary social issues through the lens of two prominent public figures, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the interplay between culture, media, and individual experiences in the age of cancel culture and wokeism.

Transcript

[Bill Maher]

Zbiotics Pre Alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. Spring is here, which means more opportunities to celebrate warmer weather before drinks on the patio, that tropical vacation or your best friend's wedding. Don't forget your Zebiotics Pre alcohol drink one before drinking and wake up feeling great the next day. Remember to head to zbiotics.com/random and use the code random at checkout for 15% off. Ruler connects you with high quality, vetted licensed mental health professionals that are suited for you. Thousands have already trusted Rula to support them on their journey toward improved mental health and overall well being. And here's the best part. They take most major insurance plans. That means instead of paying hundreds out of pocket, you could pay as little as $15 per session. Head on over to rula.comrandom to get started today. Go to R u l a.comrandom and take the first step towards better mental health. Today you deserve quality care from someone who cares. Club Random is brought to you by Skechers Hands Free Slip ins. I'm thrilled to have discovered Skechers Hands Free Slip ins. I don't have to remember to tie my shoes. So don't spend your life bent over touching your shoes, straining your back. Just step in and go with Skechers Hand Free Slip Go to Skechers.com ClubRandom or use code RANDOM Go to Skechers.com Clubrandom to save 20% off your first pair. Terms and conditions may apply. Mumford was cool with it, but son, not so much. No, I'm joking. Who is uncool with it?

[Winston Marshall]

Club Random. My initial feeling was I was contrite. I was like, maybe I've done something wrong. Like maybe I've got this wrong. I don't know everything about this.

[Bill Maher]

It's hard. It's hard not to feel. Hi, Bill.

[Winston Marshall]

Great to meet you.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, you're younger than I thought.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, well.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, I can't tell you how much I've been looking forward to this. I know you traveled to get here. I'm most appreciative. Been looking forward to talking to you and finding out about your journey. How's your journey going on this Wednesday afternoon?

[Winston Marshall]

My journey's going great. I mean, you're the one with the big story. I don't know if there's so much.

[Bill Maher]

So much else to talk about. Like, I don't know, our journeys. I feel like if your journey met my truth, they'd have a great time.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Not that I really believe in that My truth thing. It's like everybody's got their truth and then isn't there. There used to be the truth. That was a different era.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. Facts. We will have different facts now. But I think where our journeys met is that you did a monologue about me or. Which included me. Yes, a couple of years ago and. But it was a fantastic monologue.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, thank you.

[Winston Marshall]

And ridiculing woke ideology and the totalitarian nature of.

[Bill Maher]

Well, tell the people. The people.

[Winston Marshall]

The people.

[Bill Maher]

I love the people. Do you drink, Winston?

[Winston Marshall]

I don't, but is it going to bother you if I smoke?

[Bill Maher]

Trust you, no. Everybody should do what they want. If you want to smoke a cigar, spank a monkey, I don't care. Whatever you want to do, I'm all for that. I think we both have a libertarian streak in us.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly Right.

[Bill Maher]

Okay. So, yes, Tell the people. It was, you know, first of all, what year are we talking about?

[Winston Marshall]

Well, your monologue, I think, was 22 or 23.

[Bill Maher]

No, I think it was a little earlier because I think it was right in the middle of Wokest Mania.

[Winston Marshall]

The Wokest Mania was. Was, I think, 2020. And I wonder what. I'd like to know what your opinion on this.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, sure.

[Winston Marshall]

2020. You have Covid, and everyone's locked up.

[Bill Maher]

And George Floyd.

[Winston Marshall]

And George Floyd.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

And it's when they went out, right.

[Bill Maher]

When they made an exception for the plague that was going to kill everybody.

[Winston Marshall]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

I'm not saying it was a bad thing. I'm just saying that did got to happen.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, everyone went mad. Everyone was at home and they got wound up. And the music industry, when BLM came along, that was like. They did Black Light, Black Square Tuesday. So everyone had to put a black square up on their social media. If you didn't, it wasn't that you weren't involved, but you were against it. It was a total binary. There was one band, I think I might get the details wrong, but Hanson. Do you remember the band Hansen?

[Bill Maher]

Totally. Mmm bop.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. They put out a black square, like a day late, and they got hounded for it. Just putting it one day.

[Bill Maher]

Okay, that is Peak Woke Crazy.

[Winston Marshall]

That's Peak Woke Crazy.

[Bill Maher]

That's peak. I remember talking about that with the black square. It reminded me of. What's the movie where we wear pink on Wednesdays?

[Winston Marshall]

Mean Girls.

[Bill Maher]

You ever saw Mean Girls?

[Winston Marshall]

Years ago.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, you know, that's it.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

We. We. We all wear pink on Wednesdays.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bill Maher]

And if you don't. Or if you don't put the black square yeah, that's just crazy.

[Winston Marshall]

So it was. That year was total insanity. And, you know, it was worse than that, really, because even the mainstream media, it wasn't just like the music or creative industries, mainstream media were not reporting everything correctly. The BLM riots. And this is. I don't think America's quite reckoned with this. I don't think it's reckoned with COVID either. But in the first 14 days after George Floyd was killed, 19 people were killed. By the end of October, 25 people had been killed.

[Bill Maher]

You're talking about in protests and across.

[Winston Marshall]

The protests, billions of dollars of damage, of course. And mo, it was a lot of black businesses that were damages. So in the name of black lives, all of this damage was done. For me, that sort of seemed to.

[Bill Maher]

Be poke peak woke and a lot of looting. I mean, justice shopping.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Is that what they called it?

[Bill Maher]

That's what I called it. I'm mocking. No, I mean, look, so complicated. But, you know, obviously we are all products to a degree of our past. So too, with a nation. And our past is one of horrible racism. So the idea that that is not going to eke into the present over and over again in ways like that because of the frustration and the hatred in the past. I mean, every action has a reaction. It's just unrealistic. It is. It doesn't mean you have to endorse looting. Right, right. You have to keep both those thoughts in your mind at the same time. So, you know, but amid this. And again, I'm not sure what year this is, but it's.

[Winston Marshall]

Can I take a slight detail on this? Because it seems like it's happening again with this Tesla stuff. Like the Tesla. They're damaging all these Tesla cars up and down the country. There was one case in Arizona where a driver pulled in front of, I think it was a cybertruck and started beating up the person who was driving. And this has all happened since the second inauguration of Trump. So it seems to me that there's a new coming of this anarchism in America and the only Democrats. No. You disagree?

[Bill Maher]

I do to a degree, yes. I mean, well, first of all, the Tesla thing is a response to a specific individual, Elon Musk, who I certainly have mixed feelings about. Way more negative than I used to. I mean, if you asked me a year ago, two years ago, I mean, I'm sorry, but my feelings just. Just get worse because he just gets worse.

[Winston Marshall]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

The idea of going through the government and making it more efficient, I endorsed that when it was Announced. And then the way they did it was horrendous and gleeful. Gleeful in their sadism about, hey, government workers, you're fired. Do something decent with your life. What the fuck way is this to. You don't have to be a liberal or anything to just be recoiled at that. And that he turned into Twitter, a place where free speech, yes, I'm a free speech guy up and down the line, but I didn't think that the head guy would be, like, retweeting the worst of the tweets. That's crazy. Like, yes, the Supreme Court said Nazis could march in Skokie, Illinois, a town full of Holocaust survivors. I mean, that's the bar that we have in this country for how much we love free speech. Okay, so are there going to be some Nazis if you really have a free speech channel? Yes, there are, but you don't have to retweet them.

[Winston Marshall]

Was he retweeting Nazis?

[Bill Maher]

Well, I mean, you know what? I don't read it closely, but I'm getting this from what other people say. And I don't know if it's, like, specific. It's, look, he did that salute, which I don't think he meant it. I don't think he was, like, saying, I'm a Nazi. It just. It's just when you're that close to the fire, you know.

[Winston Marshall]

Do you think it was a, like a troll slew or do you think it was not actually a sleut?

[Bill Maher]

I think it was a total accident.

[Winston Marshall]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

I just think he's a. He's an excitable guy and a bit on the spectrum. And, you know, if you get excited, you might go, hell, it might look like a. I. Yeah, I don't think he was giving a Nazi salute any more than I think Alec Baldwin tried to murder the cinematographer. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Like that smelly one you're smoking.

[Winston Marshall]

Is this going to put you off?

[Bill Maher]

I love it. I mean, I hate it, but I love it that you love it. I'm happy that you love it.

[Winston Marshall]

Thank you, Bill. So it seems like there's three things there. It's like, there's Twitter or X and what. What it is now before and after Elon, and then there's Doge and how that's going. But my initial point about Tesla was right. These people who are driving testers and having their cars vandalized, they might have voted Democrat. These are electric vehicles, so there's a good chance.

[Bill Maher]

Totally.

[Winston Marshall]

It's actually in Arizona, which is Purplish, right?

[Bill Maher]

Yes. Correct.

[Winston Marshall]

Right. So the chances that the person driving the EV is actually a Democrat is. I think it's more likely than there's.

[Bill Maher]

No excuse for vandalism or looting. And we can't. Again, I say we can understand it because of our history and because with Elon and that stuff. Can I understand how a government worker might be so infuriated that they key a Tesla? I totally can. I also say we have to be a nation of laws and people living by laws, so you can't sanction it.

[Winston Marshall]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

You can understand it but not condone it either way. And the problem is that, you know, it starts with setting a Tesla on fire. And then they're gonna go, well, if they do that, you know, we can attack a drag queen story hour, you know, and that's how the Civil War starts.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, I think it might even be worse than that, because in America, people carry guns. So now if you drive a Tesla, if I was an American and I had a gun, I'd be. And driving a Tesla, I would now carry a gun. Because if you were gonna get attacked, so what might happen, God forbid, is that someone attacks a Tesla while someone's driving in it, and they get shot, and there you go. Then you've got a whole other.

[Bill Maher]

I had a Tesla up until a couple of years ago. I had nothing to do with the controversy. It was well before that. But I'm sure glad I made the switch. The only reason I made the switch is because Mercedes made an electric car that was similar to the Tesla but twice as much money. And you could see why it was twice as much. It was. The Tesla is a very, very good car. I have no complaints about it. It was nice. I mean, like, I have complaints about all cars these days because they're just all too complicated and too much of a computer, and there's too many things that are nagging me and demanding I do this and do that and stupid for safety. That makes it less safe. Like, you know, God forbid you turn on the GPS in this car. And it's just your screen is showing you the. Why are you showing me the intersection that is right in front of my fucking windscreen? As you British would say.

[Winston Marshall]

Thank you.

[Bill Maher]

It's just crazy. But okay. They're both very similar. But, yes, the Mercedes is more luxurious, and they just took it up a notch. And I was like, well, I'm a rich motherfucker. What am I doing in this $80,000 Tesla when I can be in $140,000 Mercedes? Benz, not some douchebag in a million dollar Lamborghini. It's just a good car. But I'm glad I don't have a Tesla these days.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, and good thing you bought the German Merc before the tariffs came in.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, and when did Germans like a Mercedes Benz ever have anything to do with Nazis?

[Winston Marshall]

So you can't. Then you won't be able to drive a Volkswagen. You can't wear Adidas or Puma because they were Adidas. Yeah, Adidas, yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Hugo Boss I think made the uniforms and I gotta give it up. They were awesome Nazi uniforms.

[Winston Marshall]

They're good suits.

[Bill Maher]

So sharp.

[Winston Marshall]

It's also very unfashionable to say this and I'm sure I'll get in trouble, but Italian fascist architecture and nothing else about the fascism. But the architecture is beautiful.

[Bill Maher]

Absolutely.

[Winston Marshall]

The train stations in Milan and you go, some of the buildings are beautiful.

[Bill Maher]

I think neither one of us has any place in our minds for people who can't see. Keeping 2 thoughts in your mind at the same time. Yes. Fascism is bad and the architecture was good.

[Winston Marshall]

It's sad that we still, I still feel I have to caveat. And you still do.

[Bill Maher]

I feel the same way and it bugs me. It bugs me.

[Winston Marshall]

Do you think we're coming out of that now?

[Bill Maher]

We are, but we'll never be fully out of it. There will always be the people in the rear guard, just like there are people who are still wearing masks. You know, once you start something, you get a certain amount of cult followers for anything and then the true believers never die. I mean, a lot of people would say right now the Democratic Party is still in that mode which is going to render them possibly an irrelevant party if they don't change.

[Winston Marshall]

What would you like to see from the Democrats like going forward?

[Bill Maher]

Well, much more centrism. Much more get rid of the WOKE baggage. You know, old school liberal is what I usually describe myself as, but that's very often the opposite of woke. WOKE would like people to believe that there's some sort of an extension of liberalism, but they're not. They're usually something that's quite opposite liberalism was. We should have a colorblind society and not see race at all. That's not what the WOKE believes. Yeah, I would say they're the opposite. Let's make put race at the front of everything.

[Winston Marshall]

Yep, absolutely. Oppressor and oppressed. Sacred. Make a sacred the oppressed. But I, I, I, I say it's kind of the difference between liberalism and progressivism. I don't know if you would identify ever as a progressive.

[Bill Maher]

Well, you know, now we're talking about words that have. When everyone hears these words, they, in their minds, have their own definition. That's the problem.

[Winston Marshall]

Right, Quite.

[Bill Maher]

You know, woke. I talked about this with John McWhorter on my show a couple weeks ago. He's a brilliant linguist, and I was saying he's got a great book now about pronouns because they're so in the news, but, you know, woke is. I was saying, language is something you cannot control.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

It's a living, breathing thing. The words change and the meanings change, and you cannot do a thing about it. It's literally crowdsourced. And the crowd changed. The meaning of the word woke. It was originally something good, being alert to injustice. And it still has that meaning. But I'm sorry, it became the watchword for every kind of excessive woke thing. Like, you know, let's. Let's have penises in the women's swimming pool.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Have penises in the women's locker room.

[Winston Marshall]

You know, or let's cut off the genitalia of children.

[Bill Maher]

Yes. That kind of stuff. And, you know, it's not my fault that that happened. But woke. Progressive, liberal. I don't know what. I just know what I believe. And I know that to answer your original question, is it gonna go away? I don't think so. I don't think it ever goes away fully. And if the Democrats will either make the hard edge of it, they have so many opportunities to sister soldier this shit and just do something that would make Americans go, oh, you know what? Good, because Trump is starting to really make me nervous. And it'd be nice to think if the other party wasn't so married to these cultural issues. And here's the Democrats big problem is in their minds, these cultural issues that the right is, in their view, obsessed with sometimes. Yes. Do I really care if the transgender Congress lady uses the ladies room or men? Well, I don't give a shit where she takes a pee. Okay? But a lot of it is, like, Democrats have this view, like, well, these are not real issues. Well, they are to a lot of people, like people with kids in school and stuff, who think that they should be able to have the say above the school in the lives of their kids. I mean, this was not even controversial when I was a child.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, quite. Well, protecting. That's when I got really worried is when they're doing this to what they were doing to children, but also to women. I feel like maybe this makes me trad. But as A man. I have a duty to protect the women in my life. My mother, my sister. It is a responsibility. And it might sound silly, but if there are men in the women's bathrooms, I can't protect them there. But maybe that's a sort of.

[Bill Maher]

Boy, you must have to beat him off with a stick. You're a rock star. You. You look great. By the way, I have sticks available for 29.95 and $59.95 for rock stars like you who have to beat them off with a stick. But.

[Winston Marshall]

So you're beating them off of a stick?

[Bill Maher]

No, I. I'm just selling.

[Winston Marshall]

It's your collection.

[Bill Maher]

I'm just selling the sticks. I don't need the sticks.

[Winston Marshall]

You don't need the sticks?

[Bill Maher]

No. I'm like. I don't believe I'm like 70.

[Winston Marshall]

There's a. I saw a queue as I walked in.

[Bill Maher]

Beautiful women. Oh, well, you know, I mean, please. As I said about Castro, he's a man of the people, but he is a man. I devote my life to bettering America. I don't have time for anything social or women. Please. I'm all. I'm all in for America. You love America.

[Winston Marshall]

I love America.

[Bill Maher]

Isn't it great?

[Winston Marshall]

And if I can flatter you on that mission, I'll finish your thoughts.

[Bill Maher]

Lets face it, after a night with drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. And I hate to waste a day. So I had to make a choice. I can either have a great night or a great next day. That is, until I found pre alcohol zbiotics. Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Spring is here, which means more opportunities to celebrate warmer weather before drinks on the patio, that tropical vacation or your best friend's wedding. Don't forget your Zebiotics. Pre alcohol drink one before drinking and wake up feeling great the next day. Go to zebiotics.com random to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use random at checkout. Zebiotics is back with with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com random and use the code random at checkout for 15% off. You know, the way the world is going, everybody could use therapy. But a lot of people I know who really need to complain that it costs a fortune. That's why today's sponsor Rula was formed. Rula connects you with high quality, vetted licensed mental health professionals that are suited for you. And here's the best part. They take most major insurance plans. That means instead of paying hundreds out of pocket, you could pay as little as $15 per session. You can book your first session and start your journey to better mental health as soon as the next day. Getting started is easy. They ask you a few questions about what you're looking for in a therapist. Things like your insurance, type of care and preferences. From there, Rula matches you with in network providers who fit your criteria. Thousands have already trusted Rula to support them on their journey toward improved mental health and overall well being. Head on over to rula.com random to get started today after you sign up to ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show is who sent you? Go to R u l a.comrandom and take the first step towards better mental health. Today you deserve quality care from someone who cares. Hey, do you want a little more random in your life? Go to our online merch store look at me [e-mail] and get some Club Random merch whore. We've got great fitting people. Oh, it is premium hoodies. Look, hoodie T shirts. Where does horse hold this up? Okay, horseshirts. I mean T shirts. Oh, it's upside down and ringers. All super soft and printed with high quality inks. I would not allow my audience less quality inks than high. We've also got stuff to elevate your bar. Wow. With random mugs, tumblers and decanters for your spirit of choice or for sparkling water like me. Then you can add your jing drops and everyone can ask you what you're dosing yourself with. It's the gift that keeps on giving. All of our merch is available [e-mail]. while you're there, you can catch up on all of our recent episodes and then head over to the merch store to pick up some swag and bring some random home. Once again, that's clubrandom.com. hor. No, no, not the dot whore part. Just clubrandom.com.

[Winston Marshall]

I think that your monologues are best in the game.

[Bill Maher]

Thank you.

[Winston Marshall]

And you actually call out the bullshit and you don't care about calling out your own tribe.

[Bill Maher]

So let's get back to that. That we forgot about. So it was the middle of wokeness and you had bought a book online.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, so I bought a book.

[Bill Maher]

What was the book?

[Winston Marshall]

It was Unmasked by Andy Ngo, who's a conservative journalist whose beat is antifa. And the BLM rights.

[Bill Maher]

Even if it was Mein Kampf, it's your right to buy a book. And then your band members, right, were like, you gotta, I mean, they used to throw the band people out of the band for like really crazy shit. I mean, Led Zeppelin, I think, used to fuck groupies with the fish. I do. I feel like I read. Am I wrong again? Allegedly. But I feel like there was a shark involved beside rather young groupies as well. Crazy. And you just ordered a book by a conservative writer. I mean, the fact that that was even a controversy just blows my mind.

[Winston Marshall]

It seems absolutely ridiculous now. And it was ridiculous at the time, but I think in the moment it didn't necessarily. Or maybe it did from your point of view, but I think in the music industry, creative industries, there was that sort of tension that was, that was building and people lost their minds. Again, as we said earlier, it was people were locked up at home. Locked up, but people were lockdown at home. And what I, I did say about the book was, Congratulations, Mr. Andy. No, I, I, I can't remember the exact words, but you're a very brave man and I recommended it, which if I said that about Mein Kampf would be a problem, I think, I think it's important to.

[Bill Maher]

It wouldn't for the kids at Columbia who are marching for Hamas.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, quite. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Red.

[Winston Marshall]

For the Columbia University apartheid divest substack. And it's all pro Hamas, pro the Houthis, pro Hezbollah, pro Nasrallah. It's unapologetically anti Western.

[Bill Maher]

And if that doesn't make my point about liberalism is not the same as Wokeism.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

Nothing does. If you don't get that, then you don't get anything. And I'm just wasting my time talking to you. But anyway, so I'm very curious. The other members of the band. Yes, Mumford was cool with it, but son, not so much. No, I'm joking. Who was uncool with it?

[Winston Marshall]

Well, after this. So this tweet goes out and over the Course of the weekend, it ends up trending on Twitter. I had about 3,000 followers on Twitter. That's another crazy thing about it. I had no followers. It ends up going up all the trending lists, both in your country and my country. And it. I think I. I don't remember the exact timing right now, but it ended up being a segment on the View, a segment on Tucker, and it was your thing, obviously.

[Bill Maher]

It got on my radar.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. And so then.

[Bill Maher]

Well, it was. It's because you apologize for it. That's what I was critiquing was that, like, you know, you should stand up to these. And then to your great credit, you recanted.

[Winston Marshall]

Right. So that's a few months later. So in this first weekend, I put this apology out. The band were very upset, and I wanted to, you know, make it right, and I wanted to stop the attacks on the band. I had a duty to protect them. And in that sense, you know, I wasn't a lone artist. I'm. I had colleagues, so to speak. Feels weird calling a band mate a colleague, but. And they had families and I needed to get the heat off. And I was also conscious that I might actually have done something wrong. And this is something that I briefly spoke to Shane Gillis, the comedian, about, because he went through a cancellation. Yes, he did, at snl, and he's talked about this on his show. But in this period, he was questioning everything and wondering, like, maybe he'd done something wrong. And this is one thing that when, you know, when you get criticized, my initial feeling was I was contrite. I was like, maybe I've done something wrong. Like, maybe I've got this wrong. Maybe I don't know everything about this at all.

[Bill Maher]

It's hard not to feel when the whole country. I know this has happened to me a few times, turns the white hot light. It's over here on these people and they're in the barrel. And then suddenly it's like, yeah, that's. And it feels.

[Winston Marshall]

But also, even though I'd done media and stuff with the band before, I'd never been singled out and I'd never had this kind of media. So this was all new. I was like, what the fuck is going on?

[Bill Maher]

Right. Suddenly, you, in the course of a day, your history's greatest monster. You know what? As we're talking about this, I'm remembering the line we did, which was pretty funny, which was, you're going after this guy for reading a book. He's a musician. Don't worry, it won't Happen. That's a terrible thing to say.

[Winston Marshall]

No, it's pretty accurate.

[Bill Maher]

It's kind of funny. Come on.

[Winston Marshall]

So then. So I put this apology out, and over the coming months, I really look into it. I was like, what the hell's going on? And I. I ask other journalists, I look into Andy no's work, and then Andy gets attacked again. So he'd been attacked previously.

[Bill Maher]

He was physically attacked. He's physically attacked previously, as I recall, Right?

[Winston Marshall]

Twice. So once before this moment, which is why I felt so inspired to call him brave. And then the second time in that period and when he got attacked a second time for me, I was like, I'm one of the bad guys now, because I'm on the side that's pretending by this apology. Now, from the outside, you might be like, oh, no one actually cares. But when you're inside, weighs heavy on your conscience. So at that point, I was really, like. I was losing sleep. I wasn't eating properly. It was like, driving me crazy. And I felt like I was one of the bad guys.

[Bill Maher]

Was the band close at that point, or were you going through. I mean, because Mumford and Sons was huge. You're still big. You sell out the Hollywood bowl like, three nights in a row. But there was a time when they were like. And this is a little after that, but, like, you know, winning all the Grammys and, like, there's like an it band.

[Winston Marshall]

We had a period.

[Bill Maher]

You were the it band.

[Winston Marshall]

2012, 2013.

[Bill Maher]

That's amazing. I mean, most people don't ever get to that. And you can't be that forever. Even the Beatles were only that for six years. You know something?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Imagine they did all that in seven years.

[Bill Maher]

But. So where was the. And normally when a band is that successful, they hate each other anyway. For all the reasons bands hate each other, which, as many rock stars have explained to me, is basically two things. One, you didn't like my song. Two, you took that girl. Is that wrong or right?

[Winston Marshall]

Band dynamics are crazy. Like, you're living with these people, you're working with them. You don't. You go away for months at a time. And when you're starting out as a band, you're like, we're quite literally sharing beds for, like, months on end. So it's an. It's a completely bizarre relationship that you have. And then your identity is tied up with the band in the public and you're tied with each other. So it's a completely bizarre, anomalous relationship. I don't. I don't know what the equivalent is to that sort of relationship.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, as a Beetle nut, I know all the stories. And among them, that's my favorite is they would do these gigs in the year right, leading up to Beatlemania, you know, like 63, I guess it was already happening in England, but, you know, and they would. But they would be all of them in one van and no heat in the van in England in the winter. And they'd drive up, you know, have to drive six hours to the gig, and they would be lying on top of each other in the back of the van for warmth. That's a tight band.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, that's a tight.

[Bill Maher]

That'll get you tight with the band. But then usually there's the time, then things get. You know, it's funny, in those years, you see pictures of them and they're always smiling, and then you see the pictures of them from 68 on, and.

[Winston Marshall]

It'S just like, yeah, it's gonna sound a bit gay, but I'm actually quite romantic about that period that we had in that band, because there's a. You know, you're traveling yourself, you're touring the world for the first time, and.

[Bill Maher]

You'Re climbing the mountain and it's going well. And just for your soul, for your spirit, it's the greatest.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

You know.

[Winston Marshall]

So, yeah, we had that in 2012, 2013, and we won the Grammys around then. And it was completely. I was a privilege to be part of it. And I'm incredibly proud of all the music we made.

[Bill Maher]

And also, it was going against the grain. Like, no one would have predicted that kind of band.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, I've got a theory about that.

[Bill Maher]

I think banjo's gonna be the next bit. No one was saying that. So it was like a kind of a big flex.

[Winston Marshall]

There was a whole group of bands of sort of folk acoustic instruments that came out around that period. Fleet Foxes don't know that. Lumineers were about then. Back in Britain, it was Noah and the Whale. Nora Marling.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, there's always, like five versions of the DVR that comes out. And nobody uses Betamax, you know, I'm sorry, but that's just the way of the world, you know, there's winners and losers.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay, well, my sort of theory about this, and it's tangential, I think, to our. Perhaps the conversation, but is that there was a desire after the crash in 2008, for things that were authentic for, and that the subconscious, the sort of collective subconscious, wanted acoustic music. At that point, having had many sort of decades of Synthetic music. And life was synthetic to a point.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, you like auto tune?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Autotune or synths or just electronic music now? I like electronic music. It's not a dig against you do very much. But I think that that whole wave, that whole movement was a kind of reaction to what had happened in 2008. So I sort of see it as.

[Bill Maher]

And I think it was a reaction of people leaving their phone messages at the beginning of their records.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, yeah, yeah. We had about years of that, didn't we?

[Bill Maher]

Eminem and get me a little banjo. I cannot listen to this guy talking. I remember that. And then they were usually like something that just, okay, you're the biggest, baddest dude on the block. I get it. All the bitches want you.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, quite. And so they wanted something more helpful so that it was reflected in the songwriting as well. Yeah, I think you're right about that.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

And so all of the. Even all those bands just leaving aside what instruments they were playing, the songs were far more personal and heartfelt. And so I think there's a sort of societal desire for that. But maybe I'm reading into it a little bit too much.

[Bill Maher]

What I'm asking is, like, at the time of Bookgate with Mr. Ngo, and Mr. No's last name is spelled G, N, O, correct?

[Winston Marshall]

N, G, O.

[Bill Maher]

And I mean Ngo. He's Vietnamese by origin.

[Winston Marshall]

That's correct.

[Bill Maher]

Right. In case people think we're talking about Dr. No and try to look this up, it's like, where's this no guy?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

I don't know. But at the time of Bookgate, where was the band the day before the book thing happened? Were they good? Was it all love?

[Winston Marshall]

We had all been on. It was pandemic. So everyone was in different places. This is March 2021.

[Bill Maher]

But did you hate each other or like each other at that moment?

[Winston Marshall]

I would say there was, if I was being honest. It's probably like a different mixture of emotions. Like, some of us are getting on, but there are always ups and downs with that. So I wouldn't say necessarily that it was.

[Bill Maher]

It must be just like a relationship, but with four people. Like, as complicated as a relationship can be. And then times the drummer.

[Winston Marshall]

We didn't have a drama, by the way.

[Bill Maher]

Well, I'm. But most bad. You know what I'm saying?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

You know, it just. It's got to be rough, but fun. Okay. So then the book thing happens.

[Winston Marshall]

Thing happens. And then. So then after a few months, Andy gets attacked again. And then I. Another thing that happened and, but did.

[Bill Maher]

The band splinter on you as the issue? Like, some people were, hey, we're too hard on Winston. And some people were, no, we're not hard enough. Burn him. Burn him.

[Winston Marshall]

I was invited to stay in the band on the condition that I. I don't read. Yes. I don't read any more books. No, not quite. But I put the apology out and.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, really? By all of them. They all signed on to that.

[Winston Marshall]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

Wow. So. So I wish I'd attacked them instead of you.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, we're making it right now, and we. The, The. I came to the conclusion that I had to withdraw, basically, that. It's the apology note that was really burdening.

[Bill Maher]

Like, that was sort of under. Under coercion. It's a little bit of a. It's a little bit of a hostage video.

[Winston Marshall]

I, I will. I will say that I chose to do it, of course. And so I, I, I take responsibility, of course.

[Bill Maher]

Of course.

[Winston Marshall]

Good for you.

[Bill Maher]

But it is a little bit of a hostage video.

[Winston Marshall]

And, And I did want to make it right by the. I wanted to make it right by that. And I. I'd say that I was. Like I was saying earlier, I was genuinely contrite and I was conscious.

[Bill Maher]

What?

[Winston Marshall]

But I didn't know if there was something about this whole story that I didn't know.

[Bill Maher]

Well, you didn't, and there's not, and you shouldn't be contrite. But, like, I would compare this to me getting the vaccine. Like, I didn't want to do it. It was a bit of a hostage video. But I weighed, do I want to live my life? Which I couldn't have done if I didn't get it. I couldn't have been. They wouldn't let me near the building where I taped my show. I couldn't really. The vaccine in 2021, when we got it, you just had to get it.

[Winston Marshall]

Were you skeptical then?

[Bill Maher]

I didn't. I am not skeptical of vaccine. Yes, I am. I'm skeptical of everything medical. I'm not anti vaccine. I'm absolutely pro vaccines for many things. I was just reading about the shingles vaccine. I don't think I'm gonna get it because I know the bad side to it. But. But I don't know. There was a new report. I'm always up for new information.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. And what's your feeling now towards your place of work, the studio where they made you do it? Did you ever confront that?

[Bill Maher]

If they made me get another one, I think I would stop going into that place of work. Okay. Sometimes you gotta like, yeah, do something you don't love to continue on with your life. And there is nothing immoral about that.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Club Random is brought to you by Skechers Hands Free slip ins. I'm thrilled to have discovered Skechers Hands Free slip ins. They're easy to put on, stylish and say goodbye to head rushes from bending over to tie your shoes. Scientists did a study and they found that the average person spends four months of their lives tying shoes. I'm kidding, but that sounds about right to me. Skechers Hands Free Slip inside come in a variety of types of shoes, boots and sandals with and without laces. I love my Skecher slip ins. They're especially convenient when my hands are full or I'm mixing a cocktail here at Club Random and need to quickly run out to go feed my ducks. I don't feed them anymore. That just encouraged them. But they still come back. They must like it. I don't have to remember to tie my shoes. So don't spend your life bent over touching your shoes, training your back. Just step in and go with Skechers Hand Free slip ins. Find them in shoe stores everywhere. Or go to Skechers.com ClubRandom or use code RANDOM for 20% off your first pair of Skechers Hands Free slip ins. Go to Skechers.com ClubRandom or use code Random. Remember, there's no T in Skechers. Go to. Yeah, that's important. I would have put one in. That's True. Go to Skechers.com ClubRandom to save 20% off your first pair. Terms and conditions may apply. Club Random is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. You ever notice how more and more people are stepping away from organized religion? It's like we all collectively realize, wait, I don't actually have to go to synagogue on Friday or church on Sundays and boom, sleeping in one. But here's the thing. Christian nationalism is on the rise and they're working overtime to shove their beliefs into our laws, our schools, and even our personal lives. It's like, hey, I respect your right to believe whatever you want, just don't make me live by it. That's where the Freedom from Religion foundation comes in. They fight to keep church and state separate like our founders actually intended. So whether you've always been secular or have left religion behind, believe in keeping faith out of government. FFRF has your back. Join us. Go to FFRF.us freedom or text club to 511511 and become a member today. Text club to 511511 or go to FFRF US freedom. Because the only thing worse than someone forcing religion on you is when they do it by law. For membership information Text Club to 511-511-TEXT, fees may apply. You know, nothing quite sparks up the old lizard brain like grilling meat over a fire. Well, true. And no one makes it quite easier than Omaha Steaks. Omaha Steaks delivers handcrafted USDA certified tender steaks, juicy burgers and more. And now during their spring savings event you can get 50% off site [e-mail] plus our listeners get an extra $30 off with promo code bill at checkout. I'm personally a fan of grass fed beef and their grass fed grain finished beef has more marbling for exceptional flavor and is the choice of steakhouses and professional chefs around the world. Plus Omaha Steaks does the hard work for you. Every steak is perfectly aged to maximize tenderness and hand cut by their master butchers. It's no wonder why Omaha Steaks has been America's original butcher since 1917. With over 100 years of expertise in the meat industry, this five generation family owned company provides uncompromising quality. So much so they back all of their meats with an unconditional 100% money back guarantee. Bring home the world's best steak experience with omaha steaks. Visit OmahaSteaks.com for 50% off site wide during their spring savings event and for an extra $30 off, use promo code BILL at checkout. That's 50% off at Omaha Steaks.com and an extra $30 off with promo code bill at checkout. See site for details or I'll, I'll.

[Winston Marshall]

Add to that then when for a lot of people and we're talking about cancel culture more broadly, people have careers, mortgages, families that they've got to support. It's a big deal to walk away from your, your job. It's a big deal to walk away from that. And so I, I don't all the people who went along with things that they shouldn't have gone with. I understand it's way more complicated.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

Than we, we might perceive. And certainly all the people commenting at the time of what I was going through, they didn't know half the stuff that was going on. So, so I'm, although I've criticized cancel culture, I understand when people are in these positions and I'm sympathetic towards it. And so in that period, the other thing, and this might sound a bit pretentious but it's true, is that there's an essay by Alexander Solzhenitsyn that he published in 1974 when he was exiled from Moscow. And it's called Live not by Lies. And there's a paragraph in it about the artist. And it's something. I'll paraphrase it. Something like, how dare you call yourself an artist if you're not prepared to stand by the truth? And this essay, this, like, every time I read it, like four or five times, and it hit me every time.

[Bill Maher]

And I want you to finish that thought, but I'm just gonna put this in context, you know, stand behind. Yeah, we're all for that in principle. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was in the Gulag.

[Winston Marshall]

I know. I'm not. I'm not saying.

[Bill Maher]

No, no. I'm just saying, like, he has the credentials to say, you know, I was really standing behind it. I mean, he wrote the Gulag Archipelago.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

He wrote the book for folks who were too young to know or whatever. But that really exposed the fact that the Soviet Union had a archipelago. In other words, a chain of prisons.

[Winston Marshall]

Yep, absolutely.

[Bill Maher]

You know, like Hardee's, but not nearly as nice, but a chain, like a whole throughout the country. An archipelago of gulags, which are horrible prisons.

[Winston Marshall]

Yep. Where millions went and millions were killed.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

And he did his time there because he was a dissident. And anybody who dared to speak out against the Soviet Union, that's where they went. And then at a certain point, my memory is fuzzy on this. I mean, he came here. I mean, he was.

[Winston Marshall]

He came to Vermont. Vermont.

[Bill Maher]

Sorry, Vermont. Exactly. I always thought, well, it's cold. It probably reminds you of Russia, you know, so you feel kind of at home in the winter. It's horrible. And, you know, it's full of leftists.

[Winston Marshall]

A strange coincidence of life is that I became friends with the Sultanates and family after this. So they still live in the house in Vermont. And I even spent Thanksgiving with them.

[Bill Maher]

Really?

[Winston Marshall]

And there's tunnels all underneath the house. Cause even when he was in Vermont, he was paranoid that the KGB were going to come and get him.

[Bill Maher]

This holy shit.

[Winston Marshall]

This barbed wire all around the house and around the property boundaries. And a wonderful family, and they take it seriously. And I think one thing I picked up from them is, yes, we don't have Gulags, but there's a sort of society that tells these little lies. That's the end. That's the end goal that you get to. And so I wouldn't say we're there or we were there. But if you participate in the lie, that's the danger. And so in that sense, it's relevant. What Solzhenitsyn wrote is relevant.

[Bill Maher]

I think it's also relevant that Trump, right now, the Trump administration is disappearing people in the way dictatorships around the world. I think the word first came to be commonly used about Argentina in, like, the 70s and the 80s. It was a junta. It was a dictatorship. You know, as. As most of South America was in that era. And, you know, if you were a distant, you would just. You. One day you're on the street and next day you're. You know, we've all seen this scene in the movie. They put the hood over you and put you in the backseat. You know, you're just never seen again.

[Winston Marshall]

Who are you referring to? What incidences are you referring to under this?

[Bill Maher]

Well, he's just people who he has taken off the street claiming that they are Venezuelan gang members. And we know at least some of them are definitely not. One guy was a. I think a.

[Winston Marshall]

Hairdresser, was a makeup artist.

[Bill Maher]

I think he was a gay man. He wasn't in the gang. He did hair for the gang.

[Winston Marshall]

He did hair for the gang. The story, that story, which I don't know the full of it, but I think it's the one where he ended up in the Salvador prisons.

[Bill Maher]

Yes. And they're sending them to. I mean, it's, It's. It's just certainly something America has never done and to my view, should not.

[Winston Marshall]

Be involved in doing, Sending, sending anyone to.

[Bill Maher]

Just, just like without any recourse to any trial. Just taking someone off the street based on a tattoo. I mean, tattoos. I'm so glad I have any. Watch out, baristas.

[Winston Marshall]

Even if they're known to be illegal immigrants.

[Bill Maher]

Well, if you're an illegal immigrant, I can see at most kicking you out of the country, but not kicking you out of the country into a Salvadorian.

[Winston Marshall]

Prison or at least not without a trial. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

What does Salvador and their prison system have to do with our issues here? I mean, it's just. It's very extralegal and it's very Third world what Third World dictators do and ignoring court orders to stop doing it. You know, we all want to get rid of the gangs. I agree. I don't want to get killed by a gang member. You know, gang members, they very often have to shoot some random as their initiation. Well, I don't want to be somebody's teardrop. Okay. Tattoo. I don't want to Be that guy who was sacrificed so you could get your teardrop, you know. But I also don't want to live in a country where you disappear people. So, you know, we. Let's not become the Soviet Union.

[Winston Marshall]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

You know, I mean, one of. One of the things that liberals of former age really have to answer for is they love Stalin. A lot of them in the 30s. And a lot of conservatives liked Hitler.

[Winston Marshall]

Liberals or socialists? I don't want to get into the semantics of it, but were liberals really supporting Stalin? It was the socialist left that was supporting.

[Bill Maher]

I think it was. Well, first of all, this is before we knew about the Gulags, okay? But yes, communism, socialism, all that stuff especially you're talking about. I mean, the depression happens in 1929. Stalin was newly part. He became. Becomes premier of Russia in 1924. So they didn't know a hell of a lot about him. They knew there was a revolution, a communist revolution. If you really want to learn about this in an entertaining way, watch Warren Beatty's brilliant movie Reds. But, you know, communism was not seen as an evil then, especially because we had a depression. Capitalism was the bad guy. We just had this big depression. So communism was very attractive to a lot of people. And the Communist Party ran candidates on the ballot. It was something you could vote for. It wasn't until later, but, you know, a lot of people kind of got it. That was a bad guy and a dictator from the beginning, as was Castro and Che Guevara and the asshole in Venezuela and lots of other people that liberals, including liberal friends of mine, somehow think are cool to be friends with or laud. Shank Guevara was a murderous psychopath. Yep. He looks good on a T shirt. That's it. Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

They were locking up homosexuals and the Cubans did a lot of terrible things. It's always strange to me to see people wearing Che Guevara T shirts still. And we talk about the riots and BLM stuff, but the antifa side of it. They were communist and we wouldn't tolerate them supporting Nazi ideology. And it's still the case today that even though we know everything we do about communism, we know well over 100 million people were killed. It's still not seen as evil.

[Bill Maher]

We know it. The kids don't know it.

[Winston Marshall]

But that's inexcusable because it's out there.

[Bill Maher]

That information, the entire educational system in this country is inexcusable. But I don't expect the kids to know it because their own teachers probably don't know it. I mean, I've seen some of the tiktoks of teachers. These are. And this is my favorite kind of information because it's direct to me. There's no filter. I'm not reading this. It's not somebody's opinion. It's some teacher who made a TikTok and she's 28 and she's talking about, you know, basically how she is indoctrinating kids to be. At least consider homosexuality. Come on, Johnny, you're six years old. It's about time you considered whether you're homosexual. Well, it's really not. We were all homosexual at six, by the way, because, like, I didn't like girls till I was 12. Did you?

[Winston Marshall]

Does that make you a homosexual? Well, you were sexually attracted to boys when you were six.

[Bill Maher]

I'm not attracted. But girls had cooties.

[Winston Marshall]

Some. Many still do.

[Bill Maher]

Many still do. They had cooties. And you couldn't admit you liked a girl? No. You hung out with boys and did boy things. Girls sucked. Girls were terrible. I had a button. I bought it at Valley Fair. It said, I hate girls. I swear to God, they would have made a button.

[Winston Marshall]

Age? How old?

[Bill Maher]

I feel like this was like 12, because there was a. It was that moment in adolescence when some of the boys, you know, are starting to defect because they're reaching puberty.

[Winston Marshall]

Traitors.

[Bill Maher]

So traitors. Exactly. Traitors. Never like girls. What?

[Winston Marshall]

Super gay.

[Bill Maher]

Super gay. And so, yeah, I mean, so when you're young, I mean, you really. It's. It's like prison. It's just a bunch of guys and that's all you want to be around.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, I. I went to a women's rights march in Dublin and there were. There was an anti women's rights march, or they would probably call it like a pro trans march, but they were. They had placards with Lenin's face on.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, sure.

[Winston Marshall]

And so you say that the teachers. But. And I agree with you that it's teachers who are pro communists. But I. I don't understand.

[Bill Maher]

Not all of them.

[Winston Marshall]

Not all of them, of course, but. But there's many who are.

[Bill Maher]

What I'm saying is many young teachers, from what I've seen, and I'm sure most teachers are great people. My sister's a teacher. I have the greatest admiration for teachers. Yeah, but there. I'm sorry, I've seen the tiktoks. There are some dumbass teachers out there. And the fact that. And the. The idea that they're actually teaching kids shit, it is frightening.

[Winston Marshall]

And Marx is considered.

[Bill Maher]

And they have dumb ideas about Israel and Gaza. Like, I've seen polling like a third of the people under 30 think it might be worth another try.

[Winston Marshall]

Communism in Russia?

[Bill Maher]

No, in here.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Well, in Russia.

[Bill Maher]

Probably Russia too.

[Winston Marshall]

A poll recently that Stalin is still considered the greatest.

[Bill Maher]

Absolutely. People like a strong man.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

They cry people like a strong man. They do.

[Winston Marshall]

I was in Iraq a couple of years ago and I was very surprised to find I was there visiting Yazidi camps in. In the north. But I. I went down to Baghdad and I was very surprised to find that the young generation who have lived in just. It's been conflict for 20 years more and they actually have a favorable opinion of Saddam Hussein at this point. So, yeah, people, it's amazing how these people can have a resurgence and you know, people that we can clearly consider.

[Bill Maher]

Saddam was a bad guy. But I'll say this. You know, when the soccer team did not do well, Uday and Housay used to torture them. But I'll say this about that soccer team. They never phoned it in.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, I want to ask you about your cancellation because you were like OG cancellation.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Winston Marshall]

And it's relevant to this, right?

[Bill Maher]

It could be my RA. OG cancellation I love was in.

[Winston Marshall]

It was directly after 9 11.

[Bill Maher]

After 9 11, yes. Where were you? How old were you? I was in School in 20. In 2001.

[Winston Marshall]

2001.

[Bill Maher]

I was in high school or something.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. I was interested pointing out the guys who were trying to be friends with girls and, and calling them bastards.

[Bill Maher]

But it got on your radar or you read about it later?

[Winston Marshall]

I read about it later.

[Bill Maher]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, do you think that that.

[Winston Marshall]

Was a cancellation in the same way we consider it now?

[Bill Maher]

Well, it was a. It's so interesting. The arc of my career could be like the plot of something because it's full circle in the sense of 2001. I get canceled by the right for saying something that the left loved about Islam. Basically I was saying they're terrorists, but they're not cowards. Fast forward two years later.

[Winston Marshall]

It was a joke, right? Was it a gag or. No, not at all.

[Bill Maher]

And it's not a gag today. They stayed with the suicide mission. They're not cowards. Okay, America did not want to hear that. But then later the left always wants to cancel me because I'm clear eyed about Islam post 911 and before I was also. But I mean, it wasn't really an issue then. But like, yeah, Sharia law not compatible with Western civilization. And you say that and half the woke people just Walk right out of the room. That cannot even be heard, even though it's completely true. And that's called Islamophobia in their minds. So it's exactly switched around. Now it's the left who can't take the truth about Islam. Isn't that funny?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

First the right can't, now the left can't. And that fits into my theory that when historians write the history of our country in this age, they won't break it down into the factions we do. They'll just say, as a people, they were stupid about this, this, this, this. And you can find it on both sides.

[Winston Marshall]

Absolutely.

[Bill Maher]

You know, I mean, I would still say more on the right. They scare me more and are more often virulent about how they would carry out some of this stuff. But, you know, but it was on.

[Winston Marshall]

The right here in America, in the music industry. It was. Was it Trip Gore and that the sort of parents. Tipper Gore.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

And the parents were wanting to censor all the rappers. Was it? And.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, right, yes.

[Winston Marshall]

And that was very much kind of conservative side.

[Bill Maher]

Big thing in the 90s, when my first show, Politically Incorrect, was on the air, that was a big issue. Tipper Gore was Al Gore, Vice president. Al Gore, Democrat. His wife was all about these rappers have got to go. And it's not like she was completely wrong. I mean, I don't believe in censorship of any kind, but she wasn't wrong that it was a bad influence on kids. I mean, I just feel. I always felt it was like the perfect revenge that black people got on white people. Like, okay, you treated us so bad for a long time, and now we're gonna write lyrics to songs that your white kids in the suburbs are gonna listen to, and your daughter's gonna wanna be a hoe. And that's our revenge on you. And it's just the beginning, and you deserve it, and I'm sure white people do.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. But so how did the cancellation affect you emotionally? Like back in.

[Bill Maher]

It was the same. Probably the same thing I was just talking about with you. When the bright, hot light turns on you, it's not a good feeling. I mean, it's not a warm, bathed in a warm glow kind of light. It's like a interrogation lamp light times a terrible tanning bed, and you just feel singed.

[Winston Marshall]

Was that your first sort of controversy?

[Bill Maher]

No, no, but it was the one that, you know, rose to the level of getting me fired. I mean, all the sponsors pulled out, and then it was just a matter of time. I mean, I never Blamed the network for firing me. You can't keep a show on the air if it has no sponsors, you know, I mean, how did that affect.

[Winston Marshall]

You in your work going forward? Did it give you a fire in your belly?

[Bill Maher]

The shows we did, this happened on November, of course. November, November, September 11th to September 11th, we went. That was a Tuesday. All the shows all across America were off the air that week. Okay, no comedy, just the news. Okay, we get that. Then we all went back to work the next week. So Monday after September 11th, September 17th, what I call the tragic events of 9 17. And we. And that's a guy on the panel, a super hard, hardcore conservative guy. I mean, I would call him nutcase conservative. I mean, since then. He wasn't such a nutcase then. But he went, I mean, full, I don't know, past maga. But he said. He's the one who said it. He said the terrorists weren't cowards, they were warriors. And I just agreed. And then he was in a cab, never asked about it again. And then some disc jockey in Texas who. This was so instructive about it right away. Nobody cared because they don't really care. But it's so easy to gin people up. And somebody did. But it took a few days to go, hey, don't you hate this? Yeah, hey, hey, miss, don't you. Yeah, I do. I fucking hate that.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

And then they were all. And so then it snowballed. And once the snowball starts, they love it. I mean, Again, this was six days after 9 11. They were looking for somebody to hate. And, you know, I again did a service for my country.

[Winston Marshall]

I had a similar thing happen with Jordan Peterson. And he came to the studio, this was in 2018, and we took a photo together. And I think he put it on his Instagram.

[Bill Maher]

How dare you?

[Winston Marshall]

And it took three. Three months later, the music press, three months later. So not immediately three months. It'd been in the public domain for three months. And then they. Music press do the dog pile. Oh, you know, Jordan Peterson is this terrible. I don't know what words they use. Probably said Nazi or something like that.

[Bill Maher]

And they go, you're either a hippie or a Nazi. There's no in between.

[Winston Marshall]

You're both. So, yeah, they're kind of looking for. To take down these scalps.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, scalps. You've said the exact right word. I always say that it's about scalps. These people who consider themselves or would like to think of themselves as journalists, especially the Internet types. Stop it. Just please. You Know, I get it. This is what you do. You could, in your life, have chosen to do something more dignified like, I don't know, play piano in a whorehouse. But this is what you chose. Just own it. Just admit it. You're not a journalist. You're a scalp hunter. It's okay. We all got to make a living, you know, I got groundhogs in my lawn. Do I kill them? No. I don't care if I have a lawn. Everybody's got to make a living. I get it. You know what, Sollozzo? You sell heroin. That's fine. It doesn't interfere with my business. Every man's gotta make a living. Just admit what you do. You sell heroin.

[Winston Marshall]

Do you think that being alone through that period, or did you feel alone? Did you feel like you had good people around you? What was it like being in the comedy industry then?

[Bill Maher]

Or, well, you know, Dr. Phil. You know who that is?

[Winston Marshall]

Sorry, I don't mean. If we don't cross examination.

[Bill Maher]

I love being.

[Winston Marshall]

Lie back, relax. Tell me about your mother.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, let me think. I mean, it's a great question. I'm glad you're asking me, because I haven't thought about it in such a long time. I mean, it is 24 years ago. Wow. Jesus Christ. Time goes fast. You know, I. First. First, there was that period where we were trying to, you know, get out of it, basically. I remember I had to talk to the first. Oh, please don't sue me for this. Or if there's something suable here, just take it out. I don't have the energy, but I remember talking to the head guy at FedEx was like one of our big sponsors, and they were going to pull out, and we got on the phone and I've never met him in person, although he did lie to my face over the phone. And I think he's ex military. And, you know, I have no animosity toward. I can't remember his name, but he did tell me on that phone call where I was like, please don't pull out. Like, hey, I understand exactly what you were saying, which lots of conservatives did. Rush Limbaugh defended me, but people from both sides, and they produced articles from other people and other thinkers who had basically said the same thing. Just, you know, there's not a moral dimension to being brave. You can be brave in the cause of something evil. You know, it's not that hard to understand.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Anyway. But that didn't work. And then, you know, once. Once one crow turns and flies in the other direction. All the other fucking crows do it. So that's what happened. These sheep, crows all flew away. And then. So then there was no sponsors but that period. So we went off the air. We were on for another nine months after this happened. We didn't go off the air till the end of June of the next year. I love those shows because we were kind of freed. You know, before that, the show was a designed train wreck where we would have, you know, Carrot Top sitting there with Bob Dole or, you know, it was just. It was meant to be stupid in a way, but also revealed. People loved it. I loved it. It was right for the time. But after that, the country was in a more somber mood. And so the shows were more gravitas. There were more like substantive people on the show. Gone was Pauly Shore and in was like some expert on Middle east history. You know, stuff like that. So I. And the audience never left. I never was mad at being canceled. I was only mad that they did put out the lie at one point that we lost our audience. We didn't. My audience never goes anywhere. Yeah, I don't. Maybe I'm not like doing Taylor Swift numbers. But they never leave.

[Winston Marshall]

I think that's really key. Like the market doesn't care. The media prices care, but the people actually don't care. Best example of that is Kanye West. He can put out the most crazy anti Smith, I think. I don't know if this was a joke or not, but someone. I saw a post on X that his new album cover was just a swastika and that he was the logo for probably is Sunday service is the SS logo.

[Bill Maher]

Well, did you see the video where he's in the black Ku Klux Klan hood? Oh yeah, he's talking, he's doing an.

[Winston Marshall]

Interview, but he's still gonna sell tickets by the bucket load. Like the people do not care.

[Bill Maher]

Well, do not care. And let's not even pretend that many. There are some who agree. I mean, you're English. I think I'm getting this by the accent.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, I'm English.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, getting this by the accent. I mean, I don't read about the guests before the job. I have to say there is not a name that is more non Jewy than Winston Marshall.

[Winston Marshall]

I'm actually. My grandmother was a Holko survivor.

[Bill Maher]

That's ridiculous.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

No, really, Marshall something. The Secretary of state in the 19 Secretary of State Winston Marshall of the United Kingdom met today with Premier Khrushchev. The talks were considered to be frank but substantive. And Mr. Marshall said he will meet with Secretary John Foster Dulles of America on Tuesday. In other news, the hula hoop is.

[Winston Marshall]

Imagine my parents disappointment when I told them I wanted to be a banjo player.

[Bill Maher]

What did they say?

[Winston Marshall]

I think initially they were like, keep your options open for other things. But.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, but okay, so first tell me about London, because I've been to London, I think five times. Something like that. Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

What was your experience? Do you like it?

[Bill Maher]

First time I was there was 1984. It was completely white. Not that I'm in any way saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying this is the reality. And this is why sometimes we get frustrated with the woke. Because, like, take the V, it's great. I agree. It's great that we've made the world this more diverse place, but just don't pretend that. I think Andrew Sullivan wrote once. I mean, he was quoting a stat that like in the 50 years from maybe 80 to now, almost like the percentage of non white residents of London went up like 50%. In other words, the first time I was there, it looked crazy, like, you know, England of the Middle Ages or something. And then it was like New York. Well, and I. Again, that's not a lament, that's a, hey, good, we won. We made the world this melting pot.

[Winston Marshall]

I think the lament comes for me not when it comes to the ethnic racial makeup, but rather that we are people who actually no longer share a common culture. Yeah. And because we've had mass migration, you know, net migration up to 1.2 million in our small country. That's a lot. Some years this happened under the Conservative government, I might add. But really it start. It started after the war and it was turbocharged from 1997 after Tony Blair, and just went into. Went crazy after the Tories their last tenure. And the problem we've got now, we have terrible problems of social cohesion. And this riots all through last year, it's that we're no longer. We can't even identify what it is to be British anymore or what it is to be English. And it's tricky because unlike America, which has, let's say, a Declaration of independence, which even though it's a multicultural society, there is a meta culture that unites America.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, I saw that some. Prince Charles. Prince King Charles was somewhere like some hallowed British place from a thousand fucking years ago. And they did the call to prayer from there. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Winston Marshall]

There was at the beginning of Easter. Oh, sorry. At the beginning of Lent. They.

[Bill Maher]

Ramadan. Maybe it was.

[Winston Marshall]

It was also the beginning of Ramadan.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Winston Marshall]

And. Well, they hosted some sort of celebration for Ramadan at Windsor Castle. I don't think King Charles was there, but King Charles tweeted at the beginning of Lent, nothing about Ash Wednesday. He tweeted something about Ramadan, and he's head of the church, and so.

[Bill Maher]

The Anglican Church.

[Winston Marshall]

He's head of the Anglican church, yeah.

[Bill Maher]

The king is the head of the Anglican.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes.

[Bill Maher]

It goes back to Henry viii, right?

[Winston Marshall]

Henry viii, yeah. And then Elizabeth I. That sort of period. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Who did it because he wanted pussy.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah. Okay.

[Winston Marshall]

He was a.

[Bill Maher]

As long as we know where this is coming from.

[Winston Marshall]

He's a shaggy. He's a good lad.

[Bill Maher]

Right. But I'm saying people should know their history. He was married. He didn't want that girl anymore. And then so we said, well, I will switch religions to get some pussy.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

I mean, that's it in a nutshell.

[Bill Maher]

I'm just putting that out there. But look, this is why I think us atheists have it, right? Which is I don't want the call to prayer, and I also don't want the call to Christian prayer. Like, no prayer. That's what was one of the great things about America, separation of church and state. Like, it's just not part of it. Whatever you want. You want the call to prayer. Good. Like, I resented it when I was in Jerusalem for a week when I was making the movie Religious, and you feel. You hear the call to prayer five times a day in Jerusalem. This is the Jewish capital, and I have to hear the Muslim. Yeah, well, I know. I mean, I don't want to hear anybody's prayer. It's not. I'm not. I don't want to do something five times a day. I would push back, which is masturbate. That's what I do. Five times a day.

[Winston Marshall]

Hopefully not in this.

[Bill Maher]

It reminded me. I'm like, oh, yeah? Then go at it.

[Winston Marshall]

The American Declaration. There is God in it. It's, you know, you'll know the exact line, but, you know, creator is mentioned.

[Bill Maher]

Creator.

[Winston Marshall]

So it's not an atheist.

[Bill Maher]

It's vague.

[Winston Marshall]

It's vague, but it's. There's theism in it.

[Bill Maher]

There is, right? There definitely is.

[Winston Marshall]

And. And so then I guess the problem with a totally atheistic world is what gods replace those gods. And I think that that's what we've been seeing in the recent years. I do think wokeism is part of that. And, you know, the environmental stuff is a similar religion. It's a new religion. And so it turn actually need some sort of metaphysic to structure our moral code.

[Bill Maher]

I think that's going to be tougher now that AI and robots are coming along. I mean, I just don't see people being big into God when you got the robot there. I mean, they say that's only maybe five years away. Just like we've seen it in a million movies. Hello, what can I do for you? You know, people will have their like fucking robots around.

[Winston Marshall]

And why will that turn them off? God?

[Bill Maher]

I just, I don't know, it just seems that they can't really exist in the same universe. I mean either man could do that, and that is God. I mean, or there is some. It just, you know. But maybe I'm wrong. I mean like certainly people have used cell phones for terrorist attacks to enforce a 7th century view of the world. They use 21st century technology. So you're right, people can put their mind in two different places and not be the least bothered by it.

[Winston Marshall]

And I think the point I'm trying to make though is that people still need a moral code. Well, they need a connection and community. And that's a very important part of the rigor of religion, I think. But, but people still need to know how to act. And I don't think robots will necessarily disrupt that. I don't know enough about AI and robots to sort of understand necessarily what's going on there. But I think that we need to align ourselves somehow in our decision making.

[Bill Maher]

Can I tell you my London story?

[Winston Marshall]

Please.

[Bill Maher]

Okay, so last time I was there was 2015, I was on a vacation. I actually was touring Europe. I played five different European capitals that speak English. So in London and I was with a brilliant recording artist who recorded that day. And the guy in the studio said, you know, where you gotta have dinners. And of course, because the hip music crowd wants the place that's most outre. It was in a neighborhood that I was way, I guess east London maybe it was whatever it was. I remember we got there and I was traveling. This is 2015, right after the attack.

[Winston Marshall]

Bataclan, would it be?

[Bill Maher]

Yes, correct. I mean there were two attacks in Paris. I mean Europe was on edge, as was I traveling there. So I had my security person plus two Israeli bodyguards. Okay, so we go to this neighborhood and we're walking around looking for this restaurant. And it's like, it's not like a. Not what we call five star, you know, it's like authentic, that kind of shit, which I'm like Too old for to begin with. And I'm looking at like there was some hard looks on the street. That was all I'm gonna say from people. I mean, it was a completely, seemed to be, shall we say, West Asian neighborhood. I don't know. And I had just seen a 60 Minutes report about no go zones, as some people call them and other people say they don't exist. Well, they're in the 60 Minutes report. There are Muslim men who are screaming at a woman wearing a miniskirt and she's saying, this is England to your point about this. So, you know. But not in that neighborhood, it's not. And I remember we were walking along and before we ever got to the restaurant, I remember vividly one of the Israeli bodyguards saying to me the exact words, we got to get up out of here right now. They just felt unsafe here. And, you know, that's what we did. Yeah, but I hear the food was fantastic at this place. I mean, I don't want to shit on it.

[Winston Marshall]

They'd make great food. This is, this is, I mean, sorry to get sort of bleak, but this is like one of the big problems facing my country right now. Is that. So there was a Henry Jackson Society did a report and last year, and they're a think tank. Henry Jackson Society.

[Bill Maher]

Henry Jackson Society, yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

And they, they did a survey of British Muslims. Three quarters of British Muslims do not believe that Hamas committed murder or rape on October 7th. The majority of British Muslims think Jews have too much power. The.

[Bill Maher]

So does my agent.

[Winston Marshall]

A third, A third of British Muslim want Sharia law. And so the real Sharia law.

[Bill Maher]

That's a problem.

[Winston Marshall]

That's a problem. And so we've got a real problem with these two groups mixing.

[Bill Maher]

This is the difference between your country and mine. In my country, Muslims have assimilated well. You know, I don't think a third of American Muslims want Sharia law. They may have heard the word and maybe don't even know. And they would just reflexively, because this is the kind of bullshit I get for speaking honestly about this issue. They might reflexively go, yeah, Sharia law, But trust me, you want to live the American life that you're living. All these Americans who defend them. Yeah. You would not want to live the life that you are supposedly defending. You like it here for good reason. That's why you or your parents or their grandparents came here, because you wanted to get away from that bullshit. And Sharia law. Yeah. You're not going to want to live where homosexuality is illegal, sometimes punishable. By death. You're not gonna be able to wear that bikini. I know that. And you're not gonna have another religion or even be able to consider it. That would be blasphemy and adultery. Yeah, that's a capital punishment. You know, it's like, come on.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, I've got a friend from Baghdad, and he says the joke there. I'm not sure it's actually a joke. I think it's half true, is that if you want to go to the west and work, go to America. If you want to go to the west and not work, go to Europe. So, you know, there's different people think coming to America, Please.

[Bill Maher]

There's plenty of people here who don't work. I promise you, there are plenty of people.

[Winston Marshall]

You're starting to sound like a conservative.

[Bill Maher]

A lot of people on this. Well, there are a lot of. I was, you know, asking today in a meeting about. I don't know why this came up, but somebody was telling me about, like, seven. Something like seven million young men, like 18 to 30, maybe. I don't know, something like that. Who, like, pandemic. Okay, that. But, like, never, like, went back into the workforce, even though there were jobs open. Like, there's just a lot of people who, like, how do you live? I just. That's the one question I want. How do you live? You don't seem to have any sort of actual job. Not just men, certainly women, too, especially out here. Like, how do you live? How do you get your money? I feel like if I had truth serum, I could get to any human being's core in three questions. But they had to take the truth serum.

[Winston Marshall]

The Muslims, who in America, I believe the majority voted for Trump, so that the Muslims who are here are quite conservative, I think.

[Bill Maher]

Well, that's where it gets so naughty. It's so funny because, yes, there is that element. I mean, it works both ways. I mean, on the one hand, you'd think they would be against the guy who put the Muslim ban on, but.

[Winston Marshall]

It wasn't a Muslim ban. It was something else that. It was spun that way.

[Bill Maher]

Okay. It was spun that way, and it was sort of that way from some. From certain countries. I mean, it was assuming everyone in Yemen is a Houthi, you know, bent on killing us. They're not. But, you know, was it. The. Look, each side goes. Bends too far one way. The Democrats bend too far in. Everybody's really a good person and they deserve to live in America, and that's ridiculous. And the conservatives go too far, which. In. In the direction of. Just take him off the street. I don't have any evidence. He's in a gang. But you know what? You gotta break a few eggs. And like, could we ever land in the middle? No, that's my big issue. Yeah, we never land in the middle. Yeah, it just drives me insane. But I feel like that's my audience, that's my contingent. And I feel like you're that guy too. I feel like. Oh, yeah, you know, you have a big following now because there are people, there is a hunger for, like a sort of a. Well, these guys are not really conservatives. I mean, look at them. They're kind of hip, you know, like. But they don't. They just won't get on the crazy train to Woketown. And I feel like that's your lane now too. And you're a great voice.

[Winston Marshall]

I still consider myself a liberal, although it's a weird timeline.

[Bill Maher]

Me too.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Being liberal, you get lumped in with conservatives, although that will, I think, change quite quickly as the sort of the Trump term maybe continues. And we'll see how it's panning out already. The American political space seems to be sort of tearing into different factions and. And so. Yeah, I guess I agree, but.

[Bill Maher]

But your country, I mean, has these kind of issues that my country just does not deal with. I mean, the. The one about the raping of children. I mean, like gangs who preyed on young girls. Girls always from like unfortunate homes where they needed a role model, they needed a father, they needed money. And these were all like Pakistani or Indian guys and they would. And these were. This is like in the Midlands, the middle of.

[Winston Marshall]

It's actually up and down the country. So there's over 50 cities all the way from Edinburgh down to the southern part of England to Oxford and a lot of it in Manchester area and Birmingham area. And over the last few decades, tens of thousands of girls have been brutally treated by what are majority Pakistani heritage rape gangs. The girls are. Most of them are. I wouldn't even say working class white girls. Underclass in the way they're treated by society.

[Bill Maher]

Vulnerable.

[Winston Marshall]

Vulnerable. And white girls. And a lot of them treated this way because they're Kapha, because they're not Muslim. And it's also affected Hindu communities as well. And it's playing out even. Yesterday I woke up to the news that the Labour government are not going to do a full inquiry into it. And it's for some reason, unbelievably contentiously. I don't want to say it's even worse because Some of the girls have been brutally murdered. Right. And at least five or six of them have been brutally murdered. There's one girl, I think her name was Charlene Downs. I think that was her name. And she was in the court case, the prosecution of her murderers. There was a audio recording played of the murderer laughing about cutting her up and putting her in the kebab meat. And horrific as all of that is the way in which the establishment Conservative and Labor have everyone, the sort of Westminster uniparty have completely. And the media classes, they've all sort of been complicit in this. What I say is a cover up of what's been going on. And it's, it's, it's, you know, George Floyd is an inter. Everyone in the world knows who George Floyd is. We should know the names of these girls and we don't.

[Bill Maher]

What I read about it is that the press downplayed it, as did the officials looking into it, because they did not want to be charged with racism.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

So in other words, in the service of not being called a racist, you did something that was so immoral. And this went on for like 20 years, right?

[Winston Marshall]

More.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

Political correctness literally kills. And there's another example, like the Manchester arena attack in 2017 at the Ariana A Grand Grande concert.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

One of the security guards didn't approach the. I think he's a Libyan. The killer was. The bomber was a Libyan guy didn't approach him because he was worried that he would be called racist for doing so. And this, this is with the grooming, the rape. I mean, it's really a rape gang scandal. That was the case at every, every single level, from the councils to the police. There was an example of the one girl trying to report on it and she was arrested for being drunk and disorderly. She was trying to report on her own rape and she was arrested for being drunk and disorderly. And so it's, it's every. It's the shame of Britain and actually it didn't.

[Bill Maher]

But do you blame the media for not making this more? I mean, here in America, this got on people's radar because Musk started tweeting about it.

[Winston Marshall]

And in Britain, that's the thing that's so shocking. It wasn't until January this year that it became a national story. It became the story in the country. It took Elon Musk to do that. Now, whatever his reasons for doing that, I don't know. But how is it that this horrific story took a guy from America tweeting about it to make it the story. That's a really big part of it.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, I looked into it. It's not like the New York Times didn't cover it. But I would say this. If the New York Times had wanted to put this on everybody's radar, they could have. They covered it. They didn't ignore it. But to me, it was as big. It's. What. What do you choose to put on the front page? That's your choice. That's an editor's choice. When it was the Catholic Church molesting boys, and I was a young Catholic boy, and I was not molested. And I'm a little insulted. No, but, but, but it's. It's not maybe quite as widespread as that, but it's kind of on that level. It's systemic, you know, and it has to do with the sacred cows that we dare not. We dare not say the Catholic Church is actually what it is. Which. And you. Look, I. I reported on.

[Winston Marshall]

So I've been doing my show. I've been doing my show for a year, but I was doing media stuff for a couple of years before, and I'd been covering it, and I noticed in the comments, it's like, oh, this is a far right talking point. You just see that there's a big part of the country that really just write it off as the far right. And so it's been the case that the people most courageous to do it have been more fringe actors, more fringe characters. So you're right that it was covered in some mainstream media. It wasn't completely shut down.

[Bill Maher]

They just didn't. You could just tell when they don't want to make it a story because it just doesn't feed their narrative. And their narrative.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

Their narrative is multiculturalism. Their narrative, and they're gonna stick to this story, is that cultures are different, but they're all alike, really. No, they're different and they're sometimes not alike. Theocracy is not just different than democracy. It's worse. You know, there's like, I don't know how many countries, five, ten, I don't know. With the word Islam in the title of the country, it would be like the Christian United States of America. Which, look, there's people in this country who would love to see that, and not just a few of them, and they're in Congress and it could happen, but it hasn't yet. But they're there. I mean, your thing before, when you said they raped and murdered these girls and pimped them out because they were. What's the word that means not Islamic?

[Winston Marshall]

Kuffar.

[Bill Maher]

Kuffar. Okay, for anyone who doesn't understand what this debate is really about, it was never about race. So don't call us racists. People are religions. Cross racist. Lots of white people are Islamic. It's not a race, it's a religion. It's a different thing. And a religion is just an opinion and it's about ideas and ideas matter. And when the idea is that a women are second class citizens to begin with. And please don't even pretend to tell me that that's not a pervasive feeling throughout the Islamic world.

[Winston Marshall]

It's explicit in the quote, women are.

[Bill Maher]

Not equal like they are in the West. Shut the fuck up. And two, this thing about not Islamic, like if you're not part of Islam, are you really a human being? No, it's not like there aren't Christians who are like super. But Christianity, I'm sorry, is different. It's more that, you know, hate the sinner, hate the sin, love the sinner and like, we'll convert you. And Islam is more like, no, this is the way it is. This is the superior religion. You either get that or you don't. I hope you get it because if you don't, I have no sympathy for you. You're not really part of what, what we're doing here on earth. And that's not a good attitude. Ideas do matter, especially in this.

[Winston Marshall]

I suspect that a few things need to be done with regard to not just the grooming gangs, but all these sort of issues. But I suspect that if, let's say the Christian side or the non Muslim side, just say enough of this and there's going to be punishment instead of bowing to. If those perpetrators actually understood that, there'll be repercussions, I think that would actually stop. I mean, well, I would hope it would massively decrease.

[Bill Maher]

Anyway, the answer to this is moderate Muslims. Because I hear this all the time from people, Bill, the way you talk, you know they're moderate Muslims. Yes, I do, I'm very aware. But you know where moderate Muslims live here and Canada, they live in the West. Doesn't that tell you something? You can't be a moderate Muslim in most Muslim countries in the world. That's a problem. London has a moderate Muslim mayor. That's what we need more in the future. Your mayor still the mayor, right?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Sadiq Khan, he's like, I don't want women to cover their faces. That's the message he can only deliver to other Muslims. They have to be brought, I think, into that way of thinking.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, I don't know enough about Sadiq Khan and his personal faith, but I would say that moderate Muslims like Maajid Nawaz or Ed Hussain love them. They have been unbelievably ostracized from their community for speaking out on these issues.

[Bill Maher]

They've been ostracized from American liberals. Liberals.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. If I can make the case for the Middle east or the Muslim world, and maybe this is a white pill, I'm very encouraged by the Abraham Accords.

[Bill Maher]

Me too.

[Winston Marshall]

Trump achieved in this first term. And if you look at the signatories, most particularly the Emiratis, they are better at calling out Islamism in the west than we in the west are at doing it.

[Bill Maher]

Is that right?

[Winston Marshall]

And their leadership for me gives me huge hope for relations between Muslim majority countries.

[Bill Maher]

This is the United Arab rumor.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

And that's Dubai.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly. Abu Dhabi.

[Bill Maher]

Abu Dhabi, Dubai.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

These are the names people know and people go to and see Instagram pictures from Instagram. That will be the key. The whole fucking Muslim world is Instagrammable and not just Dubai.

[Winston Marshall]

Marrakesh.

[Bill Maher]

Do they do that for Marrakesh? Can you wear a sundress?

[Winston Marshall]

I think, yeah, you definitely can. The. The, the King of Marrakesh.

[Bill Maher]

You can wear a sundress wherever you want in the Muslim world. I'll shut up about it. The.

[Winston Marshall]

The. The king of Morocco banned selling of the hijab, I believe, or the niqab one. One of the. One of the apps. But I see a lot of hope in those nations because they also want to trade with Israel. They want relations with Israel. And so I'm not so black pilled. For me, that's where I have my hope, dude.

[Bill Maher]

There was a woman once who sued because she wanted to have a Muslim woman in America. Wanted to have her driver's license picture with the full face covering. I. You shit you not. That's a real thing.

[Winston Marshall]

I had an experience through the pandemic. I was working at a food bank near my house and. You worked at a food bank in the pandemic? I did.

[Bill Maher]

Jesus Christ. Rock star, great looking, you know, food bank. This is a fucking Lifetime movie waiting to happen.

[Winston Marshall]

But the, the. It's in a very Muslim part of life, London. And there was a very sweet moment when I had. Because it was locked down, so you couldn't. They couldn't come inside, so they had to queue outside and I would get their order and then go inside and then. And come out and there was a line of fight. Literally five women in full knick abs. And I ca. I took the order, came went in, came back out. And they're all looking at me. And I'm like, I'm looking at these five women. I'm like, I have no idea which one of you just took the. The order. And then they're kind of like moving. And then one of them waves and realizes my dilemma. And then all of them lift up the niqab and show me that they're smiling. It was like the most sweet, wonderful little exchange.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, that would be sweet if we could forget that. So many women in the world, if you're looking for a cause, kids, is that they can't even show themselves smiling because their face is covered. I dated a woman once. I had one date in the niqab. And I remember, I got home, my friend said, how'd it go?

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, that must be so hot.

[Bill Maher]

He said, how'd it go? I said, she had great eyes. I just made that up. I did not have such a date. Don't sue me. I'm always afraid of being sued.

[Winston Marshall]

Isn't there a Kobe enthusiasm about blind man dating someone in a niqab or something like that?

[Bill Maher]

Well, you know Ray Charles blind, you're familiar.

[Winston Marshall]

Very familiar.

[Bill Maher]

What do you think of Ray Charles?

[Winston Marshall]

I love Ray Charles.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah. Okay, so good. Well, you know, Ray blind, he would. He would squeeze their wrist and he felt he could tell if she was hot by the wrist, you know, like, wow, A thin wrist, I think was like. And I have to say I'm saw that in the Jamie Foxx movie from like 2005. And ever since then I can't get out of my mind. And he's not wrong. I gotta say. I have put this to the test for 20 years. The man is not wrong.

[Winston Marshall]

Did you get to fill the rest of your niqab date?

[Bill Maher]

My what?

[Winston Marshall]

Your niqab date.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Winston Marshall]

That's what I should test would have been the test.

[Bill Maher]

So. So tell me about the neighborhood of London you live in. Because I'm fascinated by London. I've read it's the most expensive city in the world.

[Winston Marshall]

Yep.

[Bill Maher]

It's certainly. I mean part of it is called like, what's where all the Russians live. Like something Knottsbridge or like London grad something. I've heard something like that. Because it's a city where like people like Russian oligarchs can go and live the high life and park their money and not be living in a. The.

[Winston Marshall]

The oligots can't since the Ukraine war started. Really. They had to, but weren't.

[Bill Maher]

What. What was all the talk about so many Russians in London? Rich Russians.

[Winston Marshall]

We had a lot of rich Russians before then. The most famous would be Roman Abramovich, who owned Chelsea Football Club. But yeah, they were parking a lot of their money and they're gone now since the war. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Really?

[Winston Marshall]

Well, he had to sell Chelsea, but they.

[Bill Maher]

They kicked them out.

[Winston Marshall]

The details, I've forgotten exactly, but they had to. They weren't like, they, they weren't allowed to keep their assets there or something like that. They were forced to sell.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, yeah, that was part of the sanctions on Russia after the Ukraine war started. Oh, okay.

[Winston Marshall]

So it's, it's not so much, but it's, it's. It's kind of sad what's happened to London. There's. It's so unbelievably expensive and a lot of people have moved out at the same time. We've got huge masses of. Of people moving into Britain, as I said earlier, like every year, like.

[Bill Maher]

Sure.

[Winston Marshall]

You know, up to net a million a year. And they. London is the place where they come. And, and it's almost like a sort of feudal system, because. Like a techno feudal system, you have a class of people who are Deliveroo Ubereats drivers who. Because that's the kind of work they can get and there's no chance for the amount of money they make doing that, or Uber drivers, that they're ever going to get to the next level. And then.

[Bill Maher]

Right, the.

[Winston Marshall]

The middle classes are squeezed out. So a lot of people, my generation, when they start, want to start a family, there's no chance they can do it in London, so they move to the countryside.

[Bill Maher]

It's very similar to New York. Yeah, of course, same. It's the exact same story. You can't live in Manhattan.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Bill Maher]

Or in la.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

People, you know, the cops live in Simi Valley. It's a long way out there.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

So. So where do you. So you live out there?

[Winston Marshall]

I live in London. You know, the banded. Well, I'm fortunate. I can afford to. To live there and. And I'm a London.

[Bill Maher]

So it is London, you said?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Oh, I'm north, in the northern part of London.

[Bill Maher]

Is that a good part?

[Winston Marshall]

It's a very. I'm in the most progressive borough of the country.

[Bill Maher]

How far is it from Abbey Road?

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, not that far. Probably a half an hour drive from Abbey Road. Yeah. Oh, or yeah, you've been to Abbey Road.

[Bill Maher]

No, but I Have the album.

[Winston Marshall]

It's a great album. It's a great album. You should. You should visit. You could do a little photograph doing the zebra crossing.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, yeah. Like every other person.

[Winston Marshall]

Exactly. Join the queue.

[Bill Maher]

I'll do it with you. How about that?

[Winston Marshall]

Wonderful. I look forward to it.

[Bill Maher]

We'll get two other guys.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Who can we.

[Bill Maher]

I'll be Ringo. You can be Paul. You're the cute one.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, thank you.

[Bill Maher]

And we'll get some spiritual person.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

You know, to be George.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, we need a spiritual person. Yeah, absolutely.

[Bill Maher]

And then. Yeah. Russell Brand. No, no.

[Winston Marshall]

You want to talk about Russell Brand? You following his story?

[Bill Maher]

Oh, he's been here. He's out there.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

How did that go?

[Bill Maher]

I mean, I, I mean, Kanye's also been there. I loved him. I loved both nights. I, I, that doesn't mean we couldn't even air the Kanye one. Really? Oh, no. They would have canceled me.

[Winston Marshall]

What did he say?

[Bill Maher]

Well, it's usual. I mean, I thought I could talk him out of Anti Semitism. I feel like I did. And then he would. And then he would like me fall back into it. You know, I just don't think this is a guy who, you know, he's perceiving truth on a different level. It would be the most charitable way to say it. Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

So. And I don't want to contribute to Anti Semitism, and he just crosses a line for me.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. But do you feel a responsibility?

[Bill Maher]

I loved Russell Brand's, you know, brilliant conversationalist.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Did I love the episode? I did. Once again, keep two thoughts in your mind at the same time. I love the episode, and I don't love the accusations about him. I mean, all these things I always say, if you weren't there. Just don't pretend, you know, you don't know. No one knows unless there's a film of it. Okay. I know Puff Daddy beat the shit out of Cassie because I saw it on video.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, yeah.

[Bill Maher]

That's different than, I know. You don't know shit. But do I get the right to, you know, form an opinion about what I think is likely? Generally, I go with, you know, if 20 people say it, it's a lot of smoke for being no fire at all. You know what I'm saying? It's a lot.

[Winston Marshall]

Do you think with someone like Kanye hosting this show, hosting your other show, to what extent is, like, the. You have feel a sort of sense of obligation to be. Make editorial decisions not to have guests or. Because the reason I ask this is.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, you're right.

[Winston Marshall]

One thing we're seeing in like the podcasting world in America is certain characters are going on to long form podcasts and having free rides. And there's sort of, I would say, Nazi revisionism going on and World War II revisionism. And, you know, me saying the uniforms.

[Bill Maher]

Look good, I'm not going to recant.

[Winston Marshall]

Do you know the question I'm asking?

[Bill Maher]

It's sort of with, I mean, who do you. Platform is what you're asking. That's a big word on the left. Yeah. Coin platform, which means let someone speak who you don't agree with automatically because that's not what we do here at msnbc, you know. So, yes, I'm a big platformer. I love to rehabilitate people. I love to have people on. I had Armie Hammer here. I think I helped him a lot. Kathy Griffin, people who, like, they've cast out from the Garden of Eden. But I would like to say, oh, let's take a Roseanne. Let's take another look at this. You know. Yes. Should we judge everyone by their worst moment? Maybe let's not. Yeah, maybe let's not do it that way. So. But there are people like, I just did not want to contribute to what Kanye's putting out there. It's already way too mainstreamed. I mean, please. He's all over the media, the fact that they report on it. Like he's some sort of scamp. Oh, Kanye, you with your hate the Jews, I love Hitler thing. You.

[Winston Marshall]

Is he terrible?

[Bill Maher]

You're crazy. You're a crazy guy. He's a crazy guy. He's like Charlie Jean. Lots of people just crazy. They just. And no, that's way worse than anything I've ever done, I think.

[Winston Marshall]

Am I. Do you think with someone like Kanye, I'm wrong. When he does this stuff, like terrible as is, like, I find it funny and it. I don't feel this way about other people doing it. But when Kanye does it, it's performance art. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Is what you're saying. Right?

[Winston Marshall]

Or it's like there's something about Kanye where it's like he doesn't quite. I feel he doesn't quite know what he's saying.

[Bill Maher]

He doesn't.

[Winston Marshall]

So it, so it doesn't. It doesn't offend me.

[Bill Maher]

It's totally true.

[Winston Marshall]

It doesn't offend me like others doing it.

[Bill Maher]

No. It's sort of the way you don't hold it against the child. No offense to you, Conway Kanye, but you know, when Richard Pryor used to have that bit when a kid says, you're ugly, you're ugly. You know, and like, you don't hold it against the child for saying, mommy, that man's ugly. Because it. Yeah, I mean, that's not the greatest defense I'd like to have in my life is like, hey, I'm childlike. But yeah, he's got a combination of just a screw loose plus celebrity privilege. I don't think people really understand what is celebrity privilege. You're a rock star. You're asking me that?

[Winston Marshall]

Well, when you say it, what do you mean?

[Bill Maher]

What I mean is that of all the levels of show business, you know, the very top of where people lose their shit. Is music your business, sir?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Maher]

It just is. It is, yeah. Thank you. Movie stars can be close, but not quite comedians, they're just getting sad after this. Okay. You know, newsmen, I mean, you know, I once saw. Nevermind. I can't say that somebody. Let's just say I once saw a 60 Minutes correspondent trying to get laid. And I've never been sadder in my life. But okay, so musicians, like rock stars, it's just like, you know, for whatever. We all love music more than almost anything. A lot of people. And even if you don't have anything going else in your life, it's great to have your music. You know, it's just way up there.

[Winston Marshall]

We let.

[Bill Maher]

So people, musicians, I've learned this from certainly personal experience with ones I know and just reading about them. There's just a level of being able to live in a bubble above reality that will not affect you. You are here's the world and you're in a glass bottom boat and you can see the sharks and the craziness, but it just, it's like, oh, there's a shark. But yeah, but it can't get you. You're in a glass bottom boat. That's Kanye. It's like I can say I love Hitler and yeah, I mean, will the sharks be trying to. They try to get in. They just can't because I'm on this. And music puts you on that level. It makes you. It deifies.

[Winston Marshall]

It's true.

[Bill Maher]

It is, right?

[Winston Marshall]

It's the same behavior. This was the Keith Richards. We celebrate him for having been a drug addict for long time. But if he was a politician, it would be the end of it. It's a completely different moral standard for musicians. We actually encourage them. We'd be disappointed if Keith Richards stopped, you know, getting sober.

[Bill Maher]

He actually did, you know, Boring. He doesn't even smoke Anymore, I've heard.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, really?

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, I think that's. But anyway, he's. Every day he's playing with the house money.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I wanted to ask you as a comedian, if you're following what's going on with a show like Kill Tony. Have you seen that show?

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, what's that?

[Winston Marshall]

It's run by Tony Hinchcliffe, and it's kind of like, oh, American Idol, but for.

[Bill Maher]

See the Puerto Rico joke.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes, exactly.

[Bill Maher]

Okay. For those who don't remember, Trump had a rally, a campaign he was running for president at Madison Square Garden a few months before the election. And all the, you know, big, as I recall, conservative stars were there. It wasn't quite like cpac. Do you know what CPAC is?

[Winston Marshall]

It's like a conservative convention.

[Bill Maher]

It is. I think it's Conservative Political Action Committee, but it's the big conservative event of the year, everybody. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boeborn. It's a virtual Woodstock for the mentally impaired. Okay. And they have, you know, every conservative's like, four days, and they flesh out the conservative agenda and then break down into smaller groups to have gay sex.

[Winston Marshall]

As I. I've actually heard.

[Bill Maher]

As I understand it, it's not quite like that, what we're talking about, but it was Madison Square Garden, which now some people tried to make an issue that. Oh, there was a Hitler. Pro Hitler rally in the 30s.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

And a million basketball games in between. Okay. You could just as well say they had it in the place where Bernard king, like, scored 30 points a night. Shut the fuck up with that bullshit. But, okay, so Tony Hinchliffe is this guy who, like, he was the comic who opened for the whole thing, and he did tell that joke about. What's the joke about Puerto Rico? Something like being.

[Winston Marshall]

It's a garbage in the industry.

[Bill Maher]

Something garbage in Puerto Rico. It was not. It was funny, but wrong. But I don't give a fuck because, you know, wrong. I'm sorry. Life's too short. Unless someone's actually literally hurt by it. I just can't. So what about Tony Hinch?

[Winston Marshall]

The reason I bring it up is he's got this show, and it's the biggest comedy show in America. I think it might even be in the world in terms of views. Kill Tony. It's a weekly show. It's out of Rogan's Club in Austin. The Mothership.

[Bill Maher]

Sure.

[Winston Marshall]

And why it's so interesting to me is that they. It's the inversion of virtue signaling. It's vice signaling.

[Bill Maher]

That's so brilliant. Yes. Vice signaling.

[Winston Marshall]

We've sort of.

[Bill Maher]

You gotta copyright that. That's so exactly on the money.

[Winston Marshall]

We've had all this political correctness killing comedy, killing the arts for a long time, and it seems to me that it's burst out in a show like this. I actually think it's an old show. He's doing it for over 10 years, and I think it's originally from Los Angeles, but. But they make fun. They have the comics that go up to try and do their minute and try and impress the world and make it. A lot of them are literally disabled. And whoever it is, really, they will humiliate them. If it's a disabled person, they humiliate them for being disabled, really. But it's equal opportunities kind of humiliation. And whoever it is, they go up there. But for me, it's so interesting because I really see it as a reaction to everything that's happened. All this uptightness, the jokes you can't make.

[Bill Maher]

You know what it reminds me of is Howard Stern in the 90s. Do you know who Howard Stern? Yeah. Okay. You know, the king of all media. And I'm friends with him, hopefully, still. We've had ups and downs, but I do love Howard, and I'm a great admirer of all his achievements and what he actually does. And, you know, I can listen to him. Like, I can listen to few people just kind of on end. He's just an interesting, charismatic guy, even if it's just his voice, but, like, oh, shit.

[Winston Marshall]

But he would do crazy things, right? He would get, like, ghosts riding a rodeo on a dildo or something like that.

[Bill Maher]

No, what he do is, like what you're just saying about the disabled, right? Like, he did crazy things. He made me do a version of Politically Incorrect on his show. But instead, of course, Politically Incorrect was a show with four guests, but they were purposely kind of mismatched. The intellectual, the politician, the idiot comedian. You know, this kind of stuff. Okay, so he made me do one once with, like, his version of Politically Incorrect, which was so much more outrageous. I could never have done it on abc. But in his version, it was a Klansman, a retarded person. And I can't deny the genius of them coming up with that parody of my show. It was taking my show and, like, going to a level that. And, you know, like, in my darkest moments, am I like, hmm, maybe I really should have done that show? No, I would not want a Klansman and a retarded person on my real show, but for his show, and it sounds like that's what Tony is doing.

[Winston Marshall]

And that was in the 90s, right?

[Bill Maher]

90S, yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

And so the first wave of political correctness was the end, sort of mid-80s, right?

[Bill Maher]

No, it goes way. I mean, politically incorrect. That sign, that giant sign behind you, that is from the fact that in 1993, when that show started, the term politically correct was around, but not incorrect.

[Winston Marshall]

Right.

[Bill Maher]

It was a way of saying here, this movement that has started of political correctness. I'm not with it.

[Winston Marshall]

Right, okay.

[Bill Maher]

I'm not with it.

[Winston Marshall]

But that movement was in the 80s, right?

[Bill Maher]

Not 80s. I would say it began in the early 90s.

[Winston Marshall]

Early 90s, yes.

[Bill Maher]

So that's when you start to see, like, kids who get trophies just for participating. You know, a kind of a victim culture is what you see. Like everything that used to be a sin is now a disease. I remember having bits about that, actually. You're right. That was in the. So it did start in the 80s.

[Winston Marshall]

And do you think Howard Stern's show was a reaction to that? Your show actually was.

[Bill Maher]

Yes.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Okay.

[Bill Maher]

Yes. And I've heard people talk about the success of it, because when you listen to it, you were in your car on your way to work, and so you were in this safe space, just you in your car with the windows rolled up, and you could laugh at this stuff that you couldn't and weren't allowed to at home with your wife and at the office with your co workers. But when Howard said retarded and Klansmen and, you know. And I think it was a retarded person, a Klansman, a prostitute.

[Winston Marshall]

Wow, that's full house.

[Bill Maher]

I think I'm remembering this from years ago, but it was something like that. And, you know, I mean, I did have to tip my hat to kind of the genius of it at the time. Did it feel great? No, but I went with it.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, it didn't feel you weren't enjoying it?

[Bill Maher]

I did. Because you know what? I can play that game. I love playing the straight man. All I had to do was get out of the way, which I know how to do. I just recently did it with Dana Carvey was on my show a couple of weeks ago. Martin Short was on my show last year doing his Jiminy Glick character. Just do your. I love doing that. I love doing that one. It's one of those crazy, out of the box, not like me, just crazy, wild energy comics. That's not my game. That's not my lane. But love to, like, let them just do their shit and let me just enable You. I feel so good about that.

[Winston Marshall]

And so I see what's going on now as a similar sort of valve. The way you describe it, it's a valve for society. People secretly listening in their cars.

[Bill Maher]

Correct.

[Winston Marshall]

And so, yes, the.

[Bill Maher]

The.

[Winston Marshall]

That for me tells me it's not just Kiltoni. There's all these other comedians. I mentioned Shane Gillis earlier. And it's just that even using words like gay and retarded again, which you could do back then, and then you couldn't use those words anymore. Now those words have been reabitated.

[Bill Maher]

You can say gay, you can't say like.

[Winston Marshall]

But you couldn't say gay like gay in a kind of funny way.

[Bill Maher]

So being gay, that's so gay.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, that's so gay, right?

[Bill Maher]

No, but you could.

[Winston Marshall]

In the 90s, you couldn't in the North. And now you can again.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, Well, I don't know. I mean, you try it. And the fact that we can't is so gay.

[Winston Marshall]

So, okay, you haven't seen the show, but knowing it exists, does that give you.

[Bill Maher]

I'm sorry, but that's another one. Like woke. It's like crowdsourced. You know what. But the crowd decided that gay has this other meaning. Yes. We don't mean just strictly homosexuality. It just has this other meaning of like. I'm sorry. That it's connected to gay, because it shouldn't be, but it just does.

[Winston Marshall]

Woke now, even though people used to call themselves woke is now just a derogatory term. No one calls themselves woke anymore. Cause the crowd decided it was something else. So just kind of.

[Bill Maher]

But I'm sorry, what were you gonna say?

[Winston Marshall]

We've. You haven't seen Kill Tony, but knowing that this exists, does that give you hope for the future of like, is that a good thing? You think that?

[Bill Maher]

What gives me hope is that they never got rid of me. Fuck Kill Tony. I don't know what the fuck he's doing. It sounds like he's pandering to one side. I'm doing something much more difficult, which is not pandering to either side. I mean, we're not going to talk about the Trump dinner, but like, you know, I'll just tell you one thing that you'll hear Friday, but now it's already Sunday. So hard to keep this in my mind. But there was a moment where he said to me, a lot of people told me that they like that we're having this dinner, but not all. And I said to him, same. A lot of people told me they really liked doing this. But not all. And we kind of agreed that the people who don't even want us to talk. We don't like you. Yeah, we're going to talk. I know that bothers some people, and I don't think those people are, like, being practical. And I don't think it's good for your psychic health, you know?

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. So you're leading by example.

[Bill Maher]

I'm just gonna talk to everybody, you know, I just don't think there's any other alternative, especially since the left has no power. It's like, it's one thing to, like, play hardball when you got some marbles. You don't have anything. You lost everything by being too woke. Sorry. But that's what it was. And now, you know, just, like, fucking play the hand you're dealt, you know? And that doesn't mean you're surrendering or anything, but, like, just. But I think you're on my page with that.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Well, you do it on your show on the. We have a panel of. Everyone's represented. Right. You try and get everyone.

[Bill Maher]

Everyone's represented, and they should be, because.

[Winston Marshall]

You'Ve got to get away from the siloed.

[Bill Maher]

Absolutely.

[Winston Marshall]

Media landscape.

[Bill Maher]

And I see more. Gavin Newsom, our governor here, has a.

[Winston Marshall]

New podcast, Bannon on.

[Bill Maher]

And he said, I have Bannon on Friday.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, really?

[Bill Maher]

Yeah. This is just coincidence. We didn't book him because this was my day back from the White House dinner. It just happened that way. But. Yeah, but Gavin Newsom, our governor, said he's. He said, already done it. Started a podcast. But he said. He quoted me, said, you know, I want. Or cited me, said, we. We want that kind of show where we talk to other people and I don't know, other. You know, what is your other alternative to that? Yeah, you know, so anyway, I'm glad your voice is out there. And when you get back here a lot.

[Winston Marshall]

I come here four, maybe four times a year.

[Bill Maher]

Call me when you do.

[Winston Marshall]

Absolutely.

[Bill Maher]

Club Random, because, you know, I love to hang out with the rock star.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Bill Maher]

So much fun.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Real pleasure.

[Bill Maher]

So much fun.

[Winston Marshall]

Thank you so much.

[Bill Maher]

Thank you. Omaha Steaks delivers handcrafted USDA certified tender steaks, juicy burgers and more. And now, during their spring savings event, you can get 50% off site wide at Omaha steaks.com visit omahasteaks.com for 50% off site wide during their spring savings event. And for an extra $30 off, use promo code BILL at checkout. That's 50% [e-mail] and an extra $30 off with promo code bill at checkout. See site for details.

[C]

This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest. All because someone committed a crime in your name. It sounds like a nightmare, but for millions of people each year, it's reality. And here's the scariest part. By the time companies tell you your data was stolen, it's already been nearly a year. 277 days. That's how long on average hackers have to use your Social Security number, open accounts, take out loans, and destroy your credit before you even know you've been exposed. By the time you get that breach notification email, the damage is done. Your identity stolen, your financial future at risk, and the company that lost your data. They'll just apologize and move on. Hackers Aren't waiting why are you? This can all sound really scary, which is why I'm so glad we're partnering with Aura. Hackers don't wait, so why should you? Aura monitors the Dark Web 247 for your phone number, email and Social Security number. Because the moment they show up for sale, criminals are ready to use them. If Aura detects your info, you'll get an instant alert so you can act before the damage is done. What if your identity is already stolen? Criminals can take out loans, max out credit cards and vanish. That's why Aura provides up to $5 million in identity theft insurance and a US based fraud resolution team that works around the clock to shut down fraud fast and get your life back on track. Your personal data is a goldmine for hackers and Aura helps lock it down with a VPN for private browsing data broker opt out to stop companies from selling your info and a password manager to help secure your accounts, Aura gives you the tools to fight back. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14 day trial plus a check of your data to see if your personal information has been leaked online. All for free. When you visit aura.comdefense that's aura.com defence to sign up for a 14 day free trial and start protecting you and your loved ones. That's aura.com defense certain terms apply, so be sure to check the site for details.