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- [00:00]
A
Olivia Culpo here to tell you all about the launch of the new Abercrombie spring denim collection. Made the way denim should feel. Their denim has always been a staple in my wardrobe and has a wide range of fits, styles and washes. Every jean is available in both their classic fit and viral Curve Love Shop in the app, online and in stores. I was addicted to Percocets and Oxycontin and was able to get them on the street level in bulk.
- [00:35]
B
Bam.
- [00:36]
A
I didn't leave home with less than 40 pills on me.
- [00:39]
B
What?
- [00:40]
A
I was killing myself slowly but surely. I thank God every day that I experienced that at the time that I did, because that was before fentanyl. What fentanyl is out here doing and how undetectable it is. The pill head that I was, I would have killed myself. I'd have been dead just like that. All my life been grinding all my life Sacrifice, hustle, paid the price, wanna slice, got to roll a dice that's why all my life I've been grinding all my life all my life been grinding all my life Sacrifice, hustle, paid the price, wanna slice, got to roll a dice that's why all my life I've been grinding. Hello.
- [01:24]
B
Welcome to another episode of Club Shay Shay on the Road. I am your host, Shannon Sharpe, the guy that's stopping by for conversation on the drink today. He is one of the most trusted, influential leading voices in hip hop media. With a loyal fan base of million, he's one of the few hip hop artists to transition successfully in the digital media space without compromising his voice. He's built a thriving independent media empire, a podcast powerhouse and trailblazer, a media titan, industry veteran, a cultural critic, a revolutionary hip hop commentator, Grammy nominated rapper, a savvy business owner, multifaceted entrepreneur, polarizing creator, unfiltered entertainer, unapologetic commentator, electrifying host, captivating personality, successful broadcaster and admired artist, a media mogul, the podfather Joe Budden. Do we do you right?
- [02:12]
A
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [02:13]
B
You remember we were just talking. You was like, man, I ain't been in the business that long. I said, well, okay, I gave you a couple extra years, but you've been. You, like, started playing the back of your head. You right.
- [02:22]
A
No, you're right. And then as I'm listening to your introduction, I'm like, man, it has been road. Long traveled road, man.
- [02:32]
B
Let's look here. You do what you did. Nothing. That shaved by laportier. Okay, you want to do the.
- [02:39]
A
No, because I'm drinking water, but I toast with you. There we go. My man.
- [02:47]
B
Bro, you shook up the Internet. When you accidentally. I don't know if you accidentally or intentionally, you was trying to show, look, I'm doing this thing my way, and you accidentally leap that you make X amount of thousand, a hundred thousand million dollars a month. What were you hoping to do in the process of doing that? Did you want to show, like, look, you can do it on your own, or what was the purpose of you doing what you did on.
- [03:11]
A
Well, the message is always that you can do it on your own. For as many people that want to hear that, in that moment, I was just tracking the growth.
- [03:20]
B
Yes.
- [03:21]
A
I was sitting there just like. Like I said, it's been a road long traveled.
- [03:26]
B
Right.
- [03:26]
A
So I think it was the impressions is what I was trying to highlight. It was some around.
- [03:30]
B
You forgot to block the other part out, huh?
- [03:32]
A
No, you know what? We blocked it, but we old dinosaurs. So they unblocked it. Damn, they unblocked it. And I got a lot of phone calls, but God is in charge. So ultimately a lot of good came from it. And again, we sharing information. It's not meant to be gay kept.
- [03:50]
B
Let me ask you this. What made you decide to go to Patreon? Because there are a lot. I mean, you're on YouTube audio, you got Apple, you got. Your platform is vast. And so you got. A lot of different people can consume the Joe Budden podcast on a lot of different platforms. Why was it so important for you to go that route?
- [04:11]
A
At the time? That was. We had a high belief in. In ourselves and what we had accomplished at Spotify previously.
- [04:24]
B
Okay.
- [04:26]
A
And we had a lot of data that told a story. So at the end of the term, you know, you can listen to all the offers in the field, which we did. We listened. We listened to everybody. But ultimately, where would I be the happiest one? Where could I. Where could I be paid? Where could I celebrate in the growth of my own show without having to ask anybody? I mean, that was really. That's always just the most important.
- [04:58]
B
Did you feel like if you had taken one of these deals, they were gonna, like. Then they feel like they can. What Joe Budden can talk about how Joe Budden can move this show, the growth of his show. Because you. As you want to. Because you are the sole proprietor, you're the sole owner of the show. So if you want to add somebody under your umbrella, I can do that without having to ask for permission.
- [05:18]
A
Well, you know what? Anybody we partnered with, they Never really tampered with the creative.
- [05:23]
B
Yes.
- [05:23]
A
In that. Right. But when you just learning. Right. Learning. Right. And at every turn, what I was learning about how podcasters would it be paid and how advertising worked and CPMs and all of this other shit, I never jived with any of it.
- [05:41]
B
Right.
- [05:41]
A
I never jived with any of that. And I was able to, because my show was so large, you know, kind of have my own say in things. So at Complex, it was complex. Negotiating the advertisement deals with their sales teams and whatever the tiny bump was in my contract is as much as I'd be able to participate, even though the ad was contingent upon my participation.
- [06:06]
B
Correct.
- [06:07]
A
Big problem for me. Yeah, big problem for me.
- [06:10]
B
Cause you do it. All the work you doing, all the ad reads. People want to hear Joe Budden. They want to hear your voice. It's not the same as them just implanting in there. They want to hear Joe read that.
- [06:19]
A
And that's the part that often gets, like, twisted up when I say that this is only applicable if your replacement list is, like, short. Because they can always replace you.
- [06:32]
B
Correct.
- [06:32]
A
They can always replace you. But, I mean, it's my job to make it damn hard for him to do that. Right. As Spotify was more the same with the advertisements for us, we were getting bunched in with whatever, thousands of shows, right? Well, we were one of the first one of two, and then we got bunched in with all of these thousands of shows that y' all shopped and came back and spread out the. That doesn't job. I don't job. I don't jive with that.
- [06:56]
B
You're the most popular.
- [06:57]
A
I don't job with that.
- [06:58]
B
You're the most popular. You're the biggest. But you want us these other mini shows. Yeah. You give us a tiny bump, but it's like, this is not market. I want to be market. I want to be a free agent, because free agency is I can get what the market bears and not just bunched in because I'm under this umbrella.
- [07:17]
A
Well, and now you're taking it to the next point, which is you go kick ass at wherever it is, whatever the place is, you name it, and then at the end of the term, we have to negotiate the value of it.
- [07:30]
B
Yes.
- [07:30]
A
And a lot of times, y' all are in charge of dictating what that looks like on your consumer face. I don't jive with that. I don't jive with that. I never jive with that. So Patreon for us was the best because we were Able to get equity. We were able to participate in the growth of this partnership, and it was able to just put it in the hands of me and my fans, which has always been the case from day one.
- [07:53]
B
Right.
- [07:54]
A
I always want to do that.
- [07:55]
B
Were you one of the first to go be on Patreon?
- [07:58]
A
No, not on Patreon. On Patreon, I wasn't one of the first. Patreon's been around for a while. Before I signed my Spotify deal, Patreon was around.
- [08:06]
B
Okay, but you didn't really know anything about it, because the podcast, I've only been in it for, like, five years, Joe. And so I remember cj, who's my producer. He was at Fox because I got into this because Fox wrote it into my deal. And so even though I had it in my deal, we weren't doing anything. Covid happened. They was like, well, we would like to, you know, because we got it in your deal, we'd like for you to do a podcast. So I'm asking. I'm like, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna talk about? They was like. And CJ was like, well, call the most famous people in your phone and ask if they would really be willing to become on the show. Now, at that time, there was no in person, so we had to do everything virtually. Hell, I had Floyd Mayweather, had Snoop Dogg, had Ice Cube, had Rick Ross, had this one and that one. And so that's how I started. But I was like, this ain't nothing. He said, no, there's money in it. I said, well, they ain't tell me nothing about no money. They just say, I need to do this because it was written in my contract.
- [09:00]
A
And they wouldn't.
- [09:01]
B
And so. But I did go back. I said, look, if I ain't say cj, because CJ was an employee of Fox, so I ain't want to get him in trouble. I said, but I think there's money in this. The only person I knew that was getting money in podcasting was Joe Rogan at the time, because he was so big. But I was like, ain't no Joe Rogan. So what's the money? And then once you start doing it and you start doing a lot of things on your own, and you start seeing, like, hold on, there's the YouTube. And then you get the programmatic for the ads that they place that you can place ads yourself. You can. I like, there really is money in this.
- [09:35]
A
It's a whole other world. It's a whole other world out here.
- [09:38]
B
But as you said, that was not something they were going to tell me.
- [09:42]
A
Hell no. Hell no. They wouldn't tell you that. No way.
- [09:45]
B
But you said they gave you equity stake and paid you up. So is that what you look for when you look to do any partnership? Are you looking for an equity stake or are you just looking to take the money up front?
- [09:56]
A
I'm never looking to just take the money up front.
- [09:58]
B
Okay?
- [09:59]
A
We. We would have advanced conversations in the background. I'm not saying that no deal can get done without me having equity, but I ask for it today, right? Because the podcast and the podcast community is its own economy. And I've seen the effect of what a partnership does. We were at Spotify before they went public. We understood what they were trying to do at the time to funnel money away from the music business. And podcasting played a really pivotal role. That's why I never want to undersell it because it is low budget or the word podcast.
- [10:39]
B
Somehow he's developed a negative connotation. Joe, why is that?
- [10:43]
A
You know what? And listen, when I started, it was a negative consultation. They kicked my ass for it. But it does today. It's traumatized. They do tend to hear that word and kind of just put it, compartmentalize it, put it in its own space.
- [11:01]
B
Because a lot of the big, like a list celebs, they look at podcasts like that ain't no real TV show. But if you look, you look at Netflix is starting to get involved in podcasting. You saw Amazon get involved in podcasting. You see these big conglomerates. Listen, if it wasn't what is growing, they ain't wasting no time with it.
- [11:21]
A
Long before Netflix, some of the shows that would pop up on these streaming apps, television shows would be modeled or based around a podcast, right? I can't tell you how many times on Hulu it would say inspired by this podcast or would start with a podcaster. So it was broad. And television shows would even make mention of things that they would hear on the podcast. But you're right, how it's looked at and what people get when they hear that word, it's still. Because nobody really knows how anybody's getting paid from it, right? I think that has a large part to do with it, too. All you ever hear, I mean, today you hear all of these numbers. So people know that there's a way to get paid.
- [12:03]
B
Correct?
- [12:04]
A
But they can't figure out how.
- [12:06]
B
They don't really know how to get started. And then a lot of people just think, well, Joe Budden making 20 million I wanna make. I should make at least 15. They don't understand. You didn't start out making 20 million. There is a gradual process, but everybody wants to skip the process. Not Joe. Everybody just wants to go straight to being the CEO. Don't nobody wanna clean. Don't nobody wanna work the desk job. Nobody wants to work the mail room. And it's like, man, all you do is work. And so when they. I'm sure you've heard it, they come to you. Man Got this idea on a podcast. I say, so how often do you want to do it? Well, I just want to shoot like 10, 12 episodes a year. What?
- [12:42]
A
Yeah.
- [12:42]
B
And so you think that's going to work? You want 10 to 12 episodes a year, but you want how much?
- [12:50]
A
That part. That part. How much money do you want for those 10 episodes? It is. I'm like, bro, that's why I don't even know how to, like, give advice anymore. Because. And I. And I do it week to week, different podcast people. And we have the talk. But sometimes those talks are a brother on episode eight saying, well, where's the money at and how do I get paid? And I'm like, it may be a path for that, but that wasn't my. That wasn't my way. No, I did this for years for free. A lot of that. I did this when a lot of the thoughts and ideas we had were way ahead of the technology and we had to just wait for everybody to catch up. We had to wait for the ad agencies to catch up. So, yeah, I don't know how to get paid by episode eight. I don't.
- [13:38]
B
Right. There is no money in episode eight. And because now everybody's starting to see there's a pathway. Everybody's getting in. And so it's becoming a very saturated market now, so you got to be really, really good. Now, look, if you're a big, big name, you know, if Denzel and Sam Jackson started a podcast, people gonna tune in at first. Now the first three or four episodes. But then how can you keep them? Because that's the hard part. Joe, is getting people. Listen, man, Joe Button. I'm gonna see what Joe talking about. Can you get him to come back? Can you get him to come back again?
- [14:13]
A
Listen, we've been seeing a million a list celebrities start podcast or make the big podcast announcement, or go get a big bag and never deliver an episode. Nope, not a one. I've seen them get fired. I've seen them. They're not. They're not. They're not to be a podcaster. Still, to be a podcast, like, you have to. You could count on the Joe Button podcast to drop twice a week, 52 weeks out the year. Right? I'm gonna. I'm gonna be there, right? Some of them, you're not committed to it. Y' all are playing the headline game. You're playing the. The stock game. I had no intention of doing it.
- [14:49]
B
Especially when Kobe came out. Joe.
- [14:51]
A
Oh, my Lord.
- [14:52]
B
Because there was nothing. There was really nothing the studios couldn't shoot. But we gotta get something out. Hey, Joe.
- [14:57]
A
Hey.
- [14:58]
B
We got this big, okay? Yeah.
- [15:01]
A
Yeah.
- [15:02]
B
I thought Joe had a podcast. I thought Joe was gonna drop this. Such and such. They took the money and ran always. And then like, bro, it's a grind, and people don't realize how hard you gotta work and what goes into it. Joe, people really just think you and your group, y' all just show and just. No, you got a rundown. We got a direction in which we want to go. We got to get in and out. We got to direct traffic.
- [15:24]
A
Yeah.
- [15:25]
B
It's not that simple. But people. When people don't see how the food is made, they think it's easy to cook. But if you watch your grandmother or your aunt or your mom cook, you realize that plate ain't just getting on the table in 20 minutes.
- [15:40]
A
She been prepping this.
- [15:42]
B
Yes.
- [15:42]
A
She's been prepping this food all night. You're absolutely right.
- [15:45]
B
But. And then you really took it to a next level. You, like, you know what? I'mma have my own ad team. I'm not gonna rely on some of the others that have advertisers that they come to you, and then by the time it gets to you, you getting 60% as opposed to, like, you know what? I hire my own ad team, and I'll get the whole 100%. And they give them a percentage on however you do it. What made you decide to go that route?
- [16:12]
A
Honestly, our. The outlook as far as ads started with just, like, how I listened to podcasts.
- [16:20]
B
Okay.
- [16:20]
A
And how I was as a rapper. I used to hate promo. I used to absolutely hate doing promotion. I'm not gonna lie to you. Even when an album was coming out, I wouldn't promo it. And when I would listen to podcasts and the ad would pop up, I didn't. I didn't necessarily enjoy that.
- [16:37]
B
Right.
- [16:38]
A
I didn't like that. I didn't want to interrupt the flow of the conversation, which I thought was extremely important at the time. So for. For this check, and I tried them I tried at first, and I'm talking. This is around 2015, 2016. Damn. 2015, 2016. I tried a few again. Shannon. Nobody knew where money was coming from. Podcasting. So if this ad came for whatever the money was, it was shorts. But the thinking was if you pack in a bunch of those, you can see how you make some money. I did the ads. Them all up. I. Them all up. Whatever the read was, I went totally off script, laughed at them, told them to call me instead. I think it was talk space or somebody. It was. It was. It was a mess. But from there, again, how. How I moved was because the audience was so large and it was growing year over year. So I mean, it was cheaper to just hoe around and add yourself to death versus nurturing a relationship with a brand that you understood, that understood you. And again, maybe this is trauma from black people. And how I view the word shock jock. Right? Because you'll participate in all the success, but anytime something happens off script, you're so quick, toss us to the side. Put all types of words in these contracts. I didn't never jive with that.
- [18:01]
B
Right.
- [18:01]
A
I never jived with that. So. Nah, I forgot where I was.
- [18:06]
B
Yeah, no, but you were saying, you were saying why you decided to, like, do your own. You have go back to the ads.
- [18:11]
A
Back to the ads, Back to the ads. So. Yeah, and we were blessed enough to. Blessed enough to have some really good partnerships with some people for years and years and years and profitable for both sides. And you meet good people and you do this thing, you start to do it and you start to reap the benefits of the independent company that's out here putting in the work versus the. The ads team. The sales team. And then that's always the thing, too. This. Whatever your beef is with whoever you partnered with, at some point they gonna put it on the sales team if you start having the right conversations, like, all right, let me come talk to the sales team, right? Then let's have a conversation. Let me get on the phone with some of these people, right? And yeah, but edgy content.
- [18:56]
B
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- [20:40]
A
Everything costs money. It does everything.
- [20:43]
B
And people don't understand. I say this talent costs money. People don't work for free.
- [20:47]
A
Your TikTok edit is going to cost money. Your Snapchat edit is going to cost money. Your any new camera, any new lens, any picture that you see, the thumbnail, everything.
- [20:57]
B
And I don't know how much you guys travel or get on the road. Joe.
- [21:00]
A
Oh, then there's that. I mean I try not to because it get expensive. But then there's that.
- [21:07]
B
And that's, you know, and like you said, I mean for us, is that what we try to do if we have to be somewhere? We try to kill two birds with one stone. Well, let's see. Since we gotta be somewhere for nightcap, well, let's see if we can do something for Club Shay Shay. Well, if I gotta do something for Club Shay Shay, let's see if we can get somebody for nightcap. That's the way you try to work it, to try to cut down on some of the costs. But I don't think people understand that to make a successful podcast, it costs money.
- [21:30]
A
You goddamn right. You better be willing. You. You gotta believe in yourself. You.
- [21:34]
B
You got.
- [21:35]
A
You have to invest in yourself. Yeah. You have to make it work.
- [21:40]
B
Since the Joe Budden is, like, taking off has gone into another stratosphere. Stratosphere. Have you been able to treat yourself?
- [21:47]
A
In what way?
- [21:47]
B
I mean, you know, maybe a new. New whip. Bigger house out in Jersey. I know you like watches.
- [21:56]
A
I'm not so much into the watches. Like that.
- [21:58]
B
I can't tell.
- [22:00]
A
Yes.
- [22:00]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [22:01]
A
I see it now. I see it now. Not recently. No, no, not recently. Not recently. I did that. I did that a few years ago.
- [22:11]
B
Yeah.
- [22:11]
A
Went out and bought the Ferrari and then bought the. Whatever.
- [22:18]
B
Yeah.
- [22:18]
A
Was next. I did that. I had a year of cars. I don't drive.
- [22:22]
B
Right.
- [22:22]
A
I. I got my chauffeur. It's just like, okay, you gotta.
- [22:25]
B
You're gonna drive. You got somebody to drive. It's like, why am I buying these cars to sit up in the garage?
- [22:29]
A
I mean, and I love my. I love my cars. I love my truck, but I did. It felt good. I'm off now.
- [22:37]
B
Over and done.
- [22:37]
A
I'm in the process of maybe building my. My home.
- [22:41]
B
Dream home.
- [22:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the process of that. That's exciting. And a headache, but exciting.
- [22:47]
B
Yeah. It's funny how, like, you like Spotify. Say, Joe, we got two meals for you. You know, do your little. Do your podcast over here. Two meal. You're like, oh, and I think you stayed. We're Spotify for like a year.
- [23:01]
A
Two years.
- [23:02]
B
Two years.
- [23:02]
A
Two years. Didn't ask back with it. Oh. And it's not that they would have given it to me.
- [23:11]
B
It's not that they would have given it to me. Yes, you gotta.
- [23:14]
A
That's not my concern. Gotta ask him. You gotta ask him.
- [23:18]
B
All they gotta do is say, no.
- [23:19]
A
Let him say no. Let him say no.
- [23:21]
B
Cause you hear these stories of Beyonce performing for Uber. She took. She like, they were willing to give her money. She's like, nah, could I have equity? She said, okay. And boom. Nas, same thing.
- [23:34]
A
Boom. Yeah.
- [23:35]
B
I was like, damn, when them deals gonna happen to me?
- [23:38]
A
They should be happening for you.
- [23:39]
B
But, you know, but that's the biggest thing, though, is that early on, we didn't know what we didn't know. Now we know we can ask, and all they can do is say, nah, nah. We're just like, okay. Like you said, I ain't turning down no big check, but I got at least ask to take a little Smaller version, if I can get a cut of the equity in the growth of the company. Because we both believe. You believe in me, I believe in you. Participate. Let's grow together.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah. And at some point, if you do it enough times, then we pass belief, we pass proof of concept stage. I'm done convincing people what's going to happen. I've seen what happens too many times when you pair this podcast with this company. I know what's going to happen. So, no, if you don't understand what's going to happen and you not willing to pay for what's going to happen, then you can't participate in what's going to happen. It's the same way the other way around.
- [24:37]
B
When did you realize you were underpaid? How did you realize you were underpaid and you decided to leave and go, yeah, and.
- [24:43]
A
And you know what? And I'm going say complex. But money was never the driving force, which is how we all end up underpaid because we're doing it for the love and the look.
- [24:53]
B
Yes.
- [24:54]
A
It was that complex. Again, they. I was inquisitive. I asked a lot of questions. I'm always early. I'm always punctual. I'm going to open the building. I'm going to be the last one here on the show.
- [25:09]
B
Right.
- [25:10]
A
I'm going to talk to the camera people. I'm going to talk to the. The corner suite. Like, I'm going to have the information to be able to best make the next decision. And that's how I ended up learning about what went on with the ads and how they were being sold and how they were being funneled to me. And I just believed that I should differently. Once I heard that, I had no idea of the money that was flying around because we not supposed to ever learn the money that's flying around. But once I heard was over, I'm.
- [25:40]
B
Like, well, what happens if I don't.
- [25:42]
A
Wear this, whatever the sneaker was at the time and they were pulling out big money. Yeah. Oh, no, I don't jive with that. Yeah, I don't jive with that. And from there, everything was education after that, from there, everything was education and learning what people are paying, learning what they're paying for, how they value it, how they're benefiting from it. Like, you just. It's education. You have to learn.
- [26:11]
B
But Joe, at the time you turned down allegedly a big deal from Spotify, over $40 million. That's a lot of money. That is.
- [26:21]
A
I don't know if it was 40. But it was. It was.
- [26:24]
B
It was substantial amount. Probably more than you.
- [26:26]
A
I had ever made.
- [26:27]
B
Yeah. You like? And to. Just to walk away from that, Joe, and to believe in yourself to say, you know what? And somebody who did I hear say, well, Master P. Master P said, well, they offered me a million. Well, if they offer me a million, I must be worth my 50 to 100.
- [26:43]
A
Yeah. On Solange album.
- [26:45]
B
Yeah. So is that how you were thinking? If they're offering me this substantial amount of money, I've got to be worth a little bit more. Cause they ain't looking to break even. They looking to turn a profit. So if they'll give you that kind of money, what kind of profit are they expecting to turn?
- [27:01]
A
Well, at Spotify, again, craving information. The two years I was there, we did a lot of asking for advanced analytics, a different kind of dashboard, different codes to be able to track things that were specific to your show.
- [27:21]
B
Like.
- [27:21]
A
Yeah, so we got this data for. We got this data for two years. Okay. the end of that road, you can take this 30 million or whatever the number was, or you can trust them. What the data is saying, if you go out there and just do the work, if you think, if. If that says that for the last two years and you trust in your audience and what you're doing, I'm going to take these people with me over here and see what happens. And by the grace of God, it worked out, man. It worked out. But a lot of tough decision. Decision making, a lot of sleepless nights.
- [27:54]
B
It is a lot.
- [27:55]
A
A lot of. A lot of turmoil, a lot of scrutiny, a lot of public. A lot of mistakes. A lot of mistakes. But, I mean, my trust is in him.
- [28:08]
B
When you see Joe Rogan get a deal, Alex Cooper, the Kelsey brothers, the ringer just sold white people. Damn, Joe, you. Joe, you ain't even let me finish up. Okay, well, go ahead.
- [28:19]
A
There's no need for me. That. There's no need for me to be starting the conversation wrong. There ain't. I'm not. I don't. I'm not. I will never. In time where I'm comparing my race to a white man's race. Right. Unfortunately. I mean, for reasons that. I mean, we feel.
- [28:36]
B
It's obvious.
- [28:37]
A
I mean, it is obvious. It is obvious. My fight is different from their fight.
- [28:41]
B
Yes.
- [28:41]
A
And I don't say that angry about it, but, I mean, I acknowledge it.
- [28:45]
B
Yes, we understand.
- [28:47]
A
Yeah.
- [28:49]
B
But let's not make it seem like.
- [28:51]
A
And I don't need to either. Right.
- [28:53]
B
Okay.
- [28:53]
A
I don't need to. There. There's Steve Harvey. Yep, there is. Shit. Charlamagne.
- [29:02]
B
Yeah.
- [29:03]
A
Is on that list.
- [29:04]
B
There is Kevin Hart has a podcast.
- [29:06]
A
That is Kevin Hart. There is my brother Stephen. A. You know, I'm mad with him right now. But there are. There are black examples of what happens when you own your ip, right? This is black examples of that. And congrats to all of those people you name. Alex. I'm a Big Bill guy. Love Bill. Shout out to Joe. That's cool, but not the same. Rich.
- [29:37]
B
If they came to you and offered you something like that, would you be willing to turn over says, okay, I'll do X amount of shows for this amount of money y' all sell. Whatever y' all gonna give me X, I'm cool with it.
- [29:51]
A
Wait, if. Who said that?
- [29:52]
B
If. Let's just say a Spotify, one of these big conglomerates right now, Netflix, Amazon is stealing. They don't do as much as they once did. What is that? Wandering Wave. And all those guys, they say, joe, we're gonna take up the Joe Budden. We're gonna take up the umbrella. We're gonna give you X amount of dollars, and then we're going to sell everything. Kind of like what they do with Joe Rogan. I think Joe got a five year, $250 million deal. So they come to Joe Rogan. I mean, come to Joe and say, joe, we got a five year, $200 million deal. We just want to take over everything.
- [30:27]
A
Probably not. Probably not. It's not where I'm at right now. I'm 45. Like, I still feel spry. I still feel like. I don't feel like the aging artist that needs to go sell his catalog.
- [30:45]
B
Oh, okay. Okay.
- [30:46]
A
I see what you're saying. And I'm building catalog. Yeah, I'm. I'm building catalog. Well, and I know what I make right now. So they'll have a double.
- [30:57]
B
They have a double that. Huh?
- [30:59]
A
And we'll talk to anybody. I mean, don't. Don't. Don't get me wrong. We'll talk to anybody. And probably are talking to most of them.
- [31:06]
B
Right.
- [31:07]
A
But the deal would have to be boutique.
- [31:12]
B
Are you looking to scale. Are you looking to have more instead, like, say, like. Like Netflix? They're trying to. They're getting podcasts and trying to develop their podcast division. Or you look at some of these other. Amazon was trying to develop their podcast division. Is that what you're trying to do with Joe? But are you trying to develop a podcast division where you have, you know, obviously somebody Maybe hip hop and then somebody in motivation and somebody in fitness and somebody in, you know, relationship. Are you trying, Is that the direction that you're trying to go in? Maybe.
- [31:41]
A
Maybe. Right now, I'm focused on getting as many eyes as possible on the Joe Button podcast and our exclusive content that we drop on Patreon.
- [31:53]
B
Okay.
- [31:53]
A
And from that, you know, we have, we have other shows. We have Pod Wise, which is a huge success. We got the in and Mark show. Like, I want to be nimble enough, Shannon, to always be able to go do a show, right? Whether that be a finance show, a sports show. I want to be nimble enough and have the staff in place to any idea that we think of, we can go execute, whether it be a doc, whether it be a comedy, whether, whatever it is. So I always want to do that right this second. No, it's too much fun stuff happening out here with all of these, all of these platforms for me to be there right now.
- [32:32]
B
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- [33:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, definitely and hopefully. Yes, and hopefully.
- [33:57]
B
But like you said, you like, man, I'm young. I'M spry and listen that you talk and I see how you're like, man, I'm just 45. You get excited to get up out of bed and go do what you do every day. And that's the kind of motivation that you got to have to be successful.
- [34:11]
A
I'm living an absolute dream. I make no, make no mistake about it, I get to wake up, live, eat, dream and music. As a music lover, right? Like I want to hear my favorite song enough to be good if I never hear it again. I'm that type of guy. Like, I really love this. I'm talking to my friends every day. You're talking to somebody whose road wasn't the school and more schooling and then work and then. Yeah, my story, I don't come from none of that. So from, from my start to where I am. Yeah. Nah. Why, why, why, why would you not do more, right? Why would you slow down? Why would you not dedicate every second to this shit? Especially that's before you get to reaping the fruits. Yes, the fruits of it. That's, that's awesome. But just without that, how could you not want to do? What's the alternative?
- [35:12]
B
Because I think the thing is for you, Joe, and kind of myself is that we found something that we really love doing. How many people out there really enjoy going to their job?
- [35:22]
A
Well, I, I, well today, yeah, today I think that number is, should be projected to change if you look at the next 10 years. Okay, but today, yeah, but I encourage everybody out there to find something that they passionate about. Right. Like even if you go into work every day, still when you get off work, do something that you passionate about for that to ignite that other shit that's in you.
- [35:48]
B
Yeah, but that's the thing. Like how many times you done heard something? Man, I hate this job, man. Woo. She'll be glad when this shift over. It's hard to do that for 20, 30 and a lot of people do that. Joe. We found something. Look, I was a professional athlete. I enjoyed it. You was in the rap game, you enjoyed it. And everybody doesn't get to transition. Everybody doesn't get to have something they enjoy doing and then find something else they enjoy doing just as much if not more, if not more.
- [36:15]
A
Yeah.
- [36:15]
B
You and I have been very, very blessed. A whole lot of people aren't blessed like that, Joe.
- [36:20]
A
Yeah, yeah. Well, don't try to, don't try to.
- [36:25]
B
Trick me into saying no, no, but, but they're not.
- [36:28]
A
But we, it's, but it's, it's true. It's true. But I.
- [36:32]
B
Listen, go ahead.
- [36:33]
A
As much as eggs cost to have a. To have a job, as much as.
- [36:38]
B
I buy me a hand, a couple of hands of myself.
- [36:41]
A
No, honestly. And if you're living in New York, New York is expensive. New York is New York, New Jersey. It is criminal. What the is going on out here?
- [36:51]
B
I just left California after eight years. You ain't got to tell me nothing, man.
- [36:54]
A
Oh, my Lord. So if you can feed yourself and shelter yourself, you're blessed. If you're healthy. If you're healthy, then you're blessed. We're blessed. In a different way. In a different way. But that's not the norm. No, that's not the norm. I'm not even gonna sit here and pitch it like it is.
- [37:14]
B
For the longest time, YouTube was the only really space that podcasts live. They're still big with the ads, but you see Netflix coming in and they got boatloads of money. Should you two be worried?
- [37:28]
A
If you asking me, yeah. Yeah.
- [37:32]
B
Cause you come. YouTube wants to be a network. Netflix want to be a network. But Joe, you know this. In order for you to be considered a network, you have to have live sporting events. And what have YouTube done? They got the NFL. What have Netflix done? Got the NFL. Amazon, what do they do? Get NFL and basketball. So if you want to be taken serious.
- [37:52]
A
And Paramount got ufc. Right.
- [37:54]
B
So at wwe, you see when you see where they're going with this.
- [37:57]
A
Yeah. No, they're playing big boy games. Yeah. Up there with big boy dollars, for sure. And YouTube has always operated as the lone whale in the sea. Everybody was there.
- [38:12]
B
Yeah.
- [38:13]
A
Already. Because that's where the eyes were. And that was back since way back. So now. Right. You have somebody over there should have seen so many stars. They should have. They should have seen the. The. The kids doing baby music. They should have seen the Lo Fi. The Lo Fi Music channel guy. They should have saw the. The. The. It was before there was no tubi. They should have saw the small independent movie guys, the director guys, the podcasters. You had them all. So now we're in 2026. Eventually somebody else wants. Somebody else in the sea. Had a dick. Yeah, Somebody. Somebody else had a wallet. And now they see what you. Well, they may see more than you see, and we have to find out about that. But there's somebody else with a checkbook that's coming to pull your biggest. And not just not. They're coming to pull from. Everybody pulled from. Right. That was barstool. That was volume that was I heart wherever they pulled from. If I were YouTube, I would be concerned about what that meant for again, not today. But everything is projection since 10 years. Five to 10 years from now, right? What does that mean? My little sister right now is 12 years old. And the next five to 10, you talking about 17, 22 years old. How is she gonna be consuming things? How is that age group gonna digest? Where are they gonna go? So it'll be interesting to see what happens. But if I were YouTube, I'd be having a meeting about it. Wow.
- [39:45]
B
Good friend of yours. You guys go back and forth. Charlemagne, my man. 200 million to do his black. I think it's black. His podcast. Congratulations Charlemagne on that.
- [39:57]
A
Indeed.
- [39:58]
B
When you heard, when you heard the news like there was somebody. There was a Joe, but there, there was somebody in the Joe button that looked kind of looked like us. Charlamagne. I mean a joke like 200 million like damn, congratulations. That's kudos. Don't hate. Okay, let me see if I can get my. Get my group together and see what we can come up with.
- [40:16]
A
Can't hate about that. You can't hate about that. If you wanted to hate him, that wasn't the time to do it. You can't. That's a black man who put the work in, who did it his way with his ideology and at the end of the road found a way to bump into that type of. Not bump into it. That's not wrong wording. But to end up with that type of headline. Right. So there is nothing that you can hate on with that. It's inspiring.
- [40:42]
B
It's very.
- [40:43]
A
It's inspiring.
- [40:45]
B
Were you originally cast to be a member of the Breakfast Club?
- [40:48]
A
No. Where'd you get that? Who you spoke to?
- [40:50]
B
I just asking. I just. I mean I was so happy to.
- [40:55]
A
Be coming here mess free. Cause I don't have current mess, but. Who told you that? Where'd you get that from?
- [41:02]
B
I just. I mean, look, that's a good. That was a good one.
- [41:06]
A
No, no, I was never.
- [41:07]
B
Oh know. I mean you got.
- [41:09]
A
My name was in a hat. My name was in the hat at Inception when they were tossing some ideas around when they really didn't have a title right yet. I went to one dinner with somebody concerning that, but I. I was never. I was never in further talks about it. Okay, that was a good one.
- [41:35]
B
We, I mean we do our research.
- [41:36]
A
We, we somebody over there. Somebody.
- [41:38]
B
We do our research. The complex show Everyday Struggle. How did that show change in life?
- [41:45]
A
It changed every. It changed everything. About my life, everything about my life. It was college. It was going to college for me because I've never gone. So to wake up at six in the morning, head into the city from Jersey and just kick it with people. Just kick it. Just kick it with people. And again, all the learning that happened for me, all of the education I got from Complex, it was. It was that time. That time was everything for me. It was the education. We had fun. I think we changed the landscape of media at that show. It was a huge rebranding tool for me, which was a large part of what I was doing it for.
- [42:28]
B
Right.
- [42:29]
A
I thought people might have had the wrong impression of me. And all good things came from it. All great things came from.
- [42:38]
B
Would you consider you guys were the first take of hip hop?
- [42:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. First take, whole piece of definitely inspiration for sure. That debate style. That debate style was hot. There was the conversation going on in hip hop about the OGs and the younger, the younger generation and how we should be kind and treat each other and speak to each other. So all of that was hot at the time and. And Complex knew what to do with it. They marketed it right, they put it in front of the right people. It took off, hit, changed everything.
- [43:12]
B
Could that format work today?
- [43:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. Today. So much is. Is personality driven.
- [43:19]
B
It is.
- [43:21]
A
It's in our hands today. So get the right personalities. If you get the right personalities, anything will work today. And there's so many people out there.
- [43:32]
B
How much you make it so they come to you to say, look, we got this idea because a lot of times, like, for an idea like, man, just for me to get on television, I'll take whatever. Because I remember when I was playing, Joe, my coach, used to commend me. You know what I love about Sharp? Sharp would play this game for free. And I would always say, but I'm gonna need everybody else to play for free too. I ain't gonna be the only mo.
- [43:53]
A
Folk playing for free.
- [43:54]
B
If everybody playing for free, I'll play it for free. But you've got me to pay them. And I play and I get paid and I play for free. So when you look at it, it had to be a small amount. I mean. Cause it was a new show, you know, getting.
- [44:06]
A
Oh. At Complex.
- [44:06]
B
I wasn't making no money. You weren't making no money? No, I wasn't making no couple hundred dollars.
- [44:10]
A
No, I wasn't making no money on Complex. Hell no. I was making enough to.
- [44:16]
B
To keep you coming back. Driving back into the city again.
- [44:20]
A
Money never Moved me, okay. That's never what I was doing anything for with hip hop, Right? I love this shit. And I wanted to be considered the best from people I thought was the best, okay. And then I got a record deal and bumped my head all these times, like, oh, shit, it's a music business. And again, more education. So, no, I wasn't making no damn money on Complex. Hell no. Not at all. Not at all.
- [44:48]
B
But when you.
- [44:49]
A
That was the last time I was under underpaid.
- [44:51]
B
But was it a situation that once you found out that they were making money and they weren't paying you any money, is that when you, like, went in and say, okay, well, I want to make X. And they like, so how did you. How did. Why did you end up leaving the show?
- [45:04]
A
Well, I finished my contract. My contract was nine months, okay. They weren't looking to renew it. I had a child on the way, okay. And that was the end. We weren't on the greatest of terms because of how I valued the show versus how they valued the show. And we tried a few times to come back to the table, but nothing really ever came from that. But. And by then, everything. That's when the deals became a lot more lucrative, Right. It was that point on Complex was a proving ground. That show was like a proving ground of sorts.
- [45:47]
B
That was your proof of concept that Joe Budden can sell.
- [45:50]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We were. Yeah, we were out of here. We were out of here. Everybody. Everybody was ready to talk at that point.
- [45:57]
B
But when you do reality do. When you do reality tv, obviously some conflict has to be a part of this show.
- [46:04]
A
Well, on reality television, yes. On reality television, yes.
- [46:09]
B
That was right up your alley, huh?
- [46:11]
A
Well, which time? I have many different reality TV experiences.
- [46:18]
B
Yeah. Yeah, you do.
- [46:20]
A
I have my first tenure on Love and hip Hop when I had the stupid vests on and my barber was putting all the stupid shit in my face, and I was high off Molly, so I couldn't even look at myself and say, hey, what the are you doing? Right, Right. And I did that for years. Oh, and then sprinkling some Xs. That was a mess. Yes. And more importantly than that, the contract may not have been the greatest for all of these different reasons. So cool. But then I think I had a couples therapy stent.
- [46:54]
B
You like?
- [46:55]
A
Interesting.
- [46:56]
B
You like reality tv?
- [46:57]
A
I like. I like. I'm a fan of reality. And if you're gonna tape it, then let's tape it. That mindset started for me because in rap, in the era that I was in, in Hip hop.
- [47:10]
B
Yes.
- [47:10]
A
It was very, it was very braggadocious. It was very stand on couches with 20 girls and the cars and the jewelry. Rappers couldn't even really say they had a girlfriend, right. In that era. Right. I didn't have the label support to where that would ever be my story. And that's not who, who I was. I was an introverted kid who suffered with addiction issues. That, that was my story. So. Yeah, I forgot what I was saying just that fast.
- [47:41]
B
No, you said reality tv.
- [47:42]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh. So yeah, that was my mindset. Right. Like in 2006, I can cut a camera on and just show who I am for real and my real life and my real relationship and my day to day travels. I guess some of what the streamers are, are doing now. And that worked, right? That worked. Anytime I was authentic, it worked. So I try to always be authentic.
- [48:10]
B
You can only be Joe.
- [48:12]
A
I, I, well, that I can be better than, better than anybody else.
- [48:15]
B
You had a viral encounter on the show with Lil Yachty. And I mean, maybe that, that you guys rectified that situation because he ends up getting a, he kind of, you know, he kind of followed the same path you rap podcast, but he, that's.
- [48:31]
A
Why we do it. We leave it to leave a trail. Yeah, we do it to leave a trail for the people coming behind us. That, that, that's a big part of it. Shout out to Yachty. We, we, we, we reconciled. We made up. That's my man. He did a podcast. I came, I came through. I was supposed to go to the show when they were in New York for. They did a million shows in New York and I missed them all. But no. Shout out to Yachty. Real good podcast.
- [48:52]
B
But you know what, Joe? A lot of times people think the biggest in one area will be the biggest in another area, and it doesn't work like that.
- [49:03]
A
No.
- [49:04]
B
Just because you sold, let's just say for the sake of argument, just because you sold 50 million albums, that doesn't mean you can get a podcast. And, and it's gonna take off like that. Yeah, but people think, people think it's like that. People think just because they were successful in one genre, they can be successful in another job.
- [49:21]
A
No, no, this thing comes with like, like, like we've already stated. So much work gotta be done. It's a 24, 7 kind of thing. Seven days a week for me. It demands so much. I started focusing on my health. Like I gotta be able to show up for myself in a cause you.
- [49:40]
B
Can'T sleep man, it's all consuming. It's really all consuming. Cause all you think about, okay, who could I get? What are we gonna talk about? Who do I need to talk? What brands could I get and let them know that this is what we're doing. This kind of direction, it is like. And you're right, man, if you don't, boy, you.
- [50:00]
A
Hey, work out, eat right, less sugar, Sleep, rest. Rest your mind.
- [50:09]
B
It's just hard though, Joe. It's hard to turn. It's hard for me to turn my mind off. I know it's hard for you to turn your mind off.
- [50:15]
A
Yeah, yeah. But I, I do, I do a good job of going to bed when I need to go to bed. I do a good job of that. That's my favorite. That's one of my favorite things about being in my 40s is the bed and how fast I can get there. Oh, it's exciting.
- [50:29]
B
Really.
- [50:30]
A
It is so exciting. You shitting me? I'll be in the bed at 4:30 if you let me.
- [50:38]
B
It's a blessing and a curse for you, though, because you've been in the industry, you've made a lot of friends, but sometimes you.
- [50:45]
A
No, I didn't.
- [50:46]
B
You didn't make no friends, Joe. I ain't friends with a whole bunch of niggas, but let that. Okay, well, let me spit it out.
- [50:54]
A
Even hearing it is hell no.
- [50:58]
B
But a lot of times when you're in a particular business and you have to critique or talk about someone from said business, they expect favor. Well, Joe, you know what it's like, man. You've been in here before, so you probably shouldn't take that approach. That what you. Because you like me, you gonna say what's on your mind?
- [51:16]
A
That's the thing. You gotta be willing to and stand on it. That was a. When I retired from rap, I wrestled with this because I'm about to talk about my peers, and for me, I'm like, okay, you know what? If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it right. Like, you can't half step.
- [51:36]
B
You cannot, you can't.
- [51:38]
A
You can't try to do one thing and you can't steal second base to keep your foot on first. I say it all the time. So, yeah, nah, I dealt. I, I dove all the way in. And you're gonna feel about it how you feel about it. For me, as long as I'm saying something that I can say to you, I'm attempting to be respectful. I'm not trying to. Like, I got a good Heart. I'm not trying to shit on none of y' all out there.
- [51:59]
B
Right?
- [52:00]
A
I'm trying to just critique fairly.
- [52:03]
B
But you get.
- [52:04]
A
And I'll take what comes from that.
- [52:05]
B
But a lot, you know, a lot of time, Joe, anytime you're in any business, if they feel. If you weren't at the top of the food chain, who are you to critique my career? You wasn't Jay Z, you wasn't M, or you weren't this one. That's how people feel. People feel like, well, I won Tom Brady. So, Shannon, why you commenting? I like, well, damn, I can't have an opinion?
- [52:26]
A
Well, you in the hall of Fame.
- [52:28]
B
Well, that's why they get mad. Cause, see, here's the thing, Joe, with me, and this is what Prime, Coach prime told me. He say, the reason why it bothers them is that they can't punch holes in your resume because you was an All Pro. You won super bowl, you went to Pro bowl, and you got that gold jacket. I'm one of less than 400 men, of 30,000 men that's played, coached, owned team for the NFL. So with that, it stings a little bit. I'm trying to be as respectful as I can, but you're not playing well. You didn't play good. So I think I have an obligation to say that. When you play well, I have an obligation to say that. But people, they will disregard, and I don't know why the mind is wired like this. And I'm gonna see what you have to say. You can be an arena Joe, and you can hear 70,000 fans screaming, Joe, Joe, Joe. But them five fans debut, I don't know why they voice is louder than the 75,000 fans that cheer.
- [53:23]
A
Yeah, I got time today for you five, you five, all this other shit is great. Hey, I agree with y'. All. I'm awesome. So there's nothing for us to go back and forth about. But you other five.
- [53:34]
B
Yeah, I got something for y' all to have today, though. Yeah, but why. But so did you get the calls when you first started out?
- [53:41]
A
I get em all the time.
- [53:42]
B
You still get em from people? Yes.
- [53:44]
A
Oh, hell yeah. They call me all the time. I got a good feel now for who's calling, when they calling, what topic gonna make them call. Who's listening? Assume everybody's listening.
- [53:56]
B
They are if they're not. Somebody that know.
- [53:58]
A
Yeah. Assume everybody is listening. Yeah. Or somebody that know em. Or somebody in their family, they.
- [54:03]
B
You heard what Joe said about you.
- [54:04]
A
Oh, yeah. It's getting back to Everybody, the president, family. It's getting where it gotta go. So I try to keep that in mind while I'm talking. But I'm devoted to this shit, man.
- [54:15]
B
You and Cardi had a few. But is it harder for you to have a disagreement with a woman that's in the business than a man?
- [54:24]
A
You know what's funny? I try not to have disagreements with women.
- [54:28]
B
Sometimes it's unavoidable.
- [54:32]
A
I mean, what are we disagreeing about? Like music?
- [54:36]
B
Yes.
- [54:37]
A
Oh, well, I mean, then we not doing the woman and man thing, then we're doing.
- [54:41]
B
We just music.
- [54:42]
A
We're doing music and music lovers.
- [54:44]
B
Okay.
- [54:44]
A
But I don't think there's too much of a reason for me to be publicly disagreeing with a woman. I just don't even like how it.
- [54:51]
B
Looks, how it comes off. Yeah, but you critique it. But sometimes it like, if you critique. Let's just say for the sake, we take Cardi. You kind of gone back and forth with Cardi about some of her music.
- [55:01]
A
No, I have not. No, I'm not going back and forth.
- [55:04]
B
Well, you.
- [55:05]
A
I have given my opinion.
- [55:06]
B
Right.
- [55:07]
A
And she's going on her platform to give hers.
- [55:10]
B
And she didn't like what you said about your critique.
- [55:11]
A
Yeah, that's.
- [55:13]
B
That's okay.
- [55:14]
A
That's okay. Okay. I'm not doing the now I'm going on my platform to respond to what you had to say. From what I had to say. I don't like that. I don't like that.
- [55:23]
B
So in other words, you have a critique. Somebody doesn't like your critique, they go on somebody else platform or their own platform, they go on IG Live or whatever.
- [55:32]
A
That's their right.
- [55:34]
B
You done with it?
- [55:35]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, I was done.
- [55:36]
B
After I finished saying what I was saying about it, I was done.
- [55:38]
A
Unless something drastic happens to call me back out to play. And that really is not gonna happen with me and a female. Most of the females have my support from day zero from them because, yeah, they just been killing. So, yeah, no, I'm not doing it back and forth with a girl. Or a guy for that matter. Or a guy. Honestly, it's not even about that.
- [55:59]
B
Or a guy on the Internet. Yeah.
- [56:04]
A
To now, today.
- [56:06]
B
So if.
- [56:08]
A
Sorry, buddy.
- [56:09]
B
If Cardi said if Cardi. If a woman rapper, I mean, there's only like a handful of the ones that mean, you know, you got Glow, you got Meg, you got Nikki, There's a bunch. And you got Cardi. If they want to say, look, Joe, I want to have a conversation with you because I want to see why you said what you said and the context of where you was trying to go with it. You down to meet?
- [56:30]
A
Always. Always man or woman, right? Always down to meet or talk about something I said.
- [56:39]
B
You like what we talk about before I go, what we talk about?
- [56:43]
A
It's normally just how somebody feel about something I said. And I get that. People are human, people are sensitive, artists deal with a lot of shit. I understand it, I understand I was that. I try to carry myself a certain way because I was that and I understand it. But sometimes we go too far. We talk for a living. We talk too much. Yes, we say a lot.
- [57:00]
B
And as long as it's not coming from an ill intended place, it's not coming from.
- [57:05]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:07]
B
But I think the thing is with you and myself is that we're passionate. We're not really going to talk about something that we're not passionate about. And people take passion as hate. Well, that's what the young G, this Gen Z and these millennials, if you don't agree with them, you hating. Hating about what? Because I didn't like that. If I say I don't like oranges, that don't mean I hate apples. But that's where we are now, Joe.
- [57:32]
A
Well, we're passionate and we're gonna say what we have to say. But we're also some of the best in the field. Right. And that has to be accounted for during whatever I'm doing. So I'm not expecting the artist to understand how I'm dressing something up or how I'm producing in the moment, or just how I'm being performative or how I'm putting sauce on something that I ain't even. I don't expect them to get all of that. How do you feel? If I hurt their feelings, I'll apologize. That's not beneath me. Like, I'll apologize and get this out the way. But for the most part, it's cool with everybody.
- [58:15]
B
Nikki goes on stage with Charlie Kirk's widower.
- [58:18]
A
I didn't love it. Why did you love it?
- [58:23]
B
You know what, Joe? I'm gonna be honest. To keep my sanity and to keep my calm. I really try to stay out of this. Cause I see what's going on and all it does is make me more and more upset. And when at first, when people first started getting behind President Trump, I lost some friends. But I started to think about it, I was like, it's their opinion. If that's how they feel, I'm ruining Friendships and relationships because so I let them have, I let them have. That's their choice.
- [58:57]
A
I understand, I understand.
- [58:58]
B
But it took some growth on my part because I see and I think I'm looking at you, you like man, did you hear some of the things that that man said about women? That's like you and you sitting up there with his.
- [59:14]
A
That is the role that I believe turning point to play in the rewriting of history or revisionist history. When they visit these schools and have all of this money just basically being pumped into a certain belief system. I won't, I won't take us there and speak to what I believe that belief system to be. Okay. But it's, it's a mess. It's deeper than political views. I'm not, I'm not political at all. I'm not political at all. You want a Republican, you. I'm not. That's not my bag. But the way people go about certain things. When you see what happened to Renee Nicole Good. Yeah. In Minneapolis, when you see the way that these quote unquote ICE agents are behaving, when you hear how the president responds to that incident, when you hear how he responded to the Reiner murders, there's a tone that I don't think is hidden. And they're hiding these white nationalist views behind Christianity. It's, it's in front of our faces. So, and, and, and, and, and, and a lot of money over there. Yes, it's a lot of money over there. So she won't be the first or the last. Like there will be plenty more celebrities for sure to take that check. Listen, when you on that side, they, they rocking. Yeah, they rock. They rocking. So tempting for people. I know but my views and just how I was raised and my family that I come from and Sumter, S.C.
- [61:13]
B
Because you know how it works, Joe. All it take is one. Well, you heard what Joe said. Joe said black people are doing the X, Y and Z. Well, you heard what Shannon said that he did say X, Y and Z. So they'll take the voice of one and then try to make it divorce of millions.
- [61:29]
A
Yeah, well. And that's a plan. And that's a plan. I can't, I can't be complicit. No, I, I and not in sleep at night. So it bothers me when I, when I see people that I know and have some sort of relationship with and have had some conversations with and you know, I've seen people grow and become multi million dollar brands from black and black people and black Consumerism, like, so to watch you take that equity and stand over there. Yeah, I can't jive with that.
- [62:14]
B
Nikki got upset at me because I was on. I was on Twitter and I was going back and forth with somebody and we were talking about Nikki Haley. And so I said, that woman don't care nothing about X, Y, and Z. So we're going back and forth. We're talking Nikki Haley. They tweet something. I tweet back. Somebody tweet, you should have Nikki on the show. I said, nikki who? Nicki Minaj thought I was taking a diss at her. I said, how you take a dis. We're talking about Nikki Haley. And I know, I remember that. I'm not Joe.
- [62:47]
A
I remember that.
- [62:47]
B
We going back and forth, we talking about some real heavy stuff. And then somebody. Sir, you should have Nicki on the show. How am I supposed to know they talking about Nicki Minaj when I just going back and forth, two tweets about Nicki Haley. Yeah, yeah, she got upset.
- [63:03]
A
The barbs was on you. I was like, bro, the barbs made the week hot.
- [63:08]
B
I'm like, what day, Hope? Yeah, I mean, if they. I'm talking about Joe Biden, man. You should have Joe on. Joe who? Oh, you don't know Joe Budden, man. I'm talking about Joe Biden. We were just talking about Joe Biden.
- [63:20]
A
You got to be careful. You got to be careful with these. These.
- [63:23]
B
But people. People look to get. Find something to get upset about that.
- [63:25]
A
Well, on the Internet, we got to remember, man, that's the 26th. The Internet is the Internet. It's the Internet.
- [63:34]
B
It's the Internet. It's Bob314.
- [63:39]
A
I don't know where this guy. Oh, it's a big thing on X Dub. There's some more white radical shit. X where they were exposing the origin of certain accounts.
- [63:52]
B
Yes.
- [63:52]
A
And in hip hop, some of these accounts that have just been reporting hip hop and being divisive or talking about hip hop beefs. They out in India page. This page started three months ago. It's like, yo, we just got a lot of filler bullshit around. Just bots and bums. And it's just cluttered. It's cluttered now.
- [64:17]
B
It is the Aiden Ross and the Dochi. You was very outspoken about that. You like, I don't rock with old boy. I mean, you got your right to you, but you. For you to go as hard at her. And he's probably said some other things that I didn't necessarily agree with, but you like? I'm okay. I'm okay. I guess it was some gang. Former gang member, I don't know.
- [64:41]
A
Glasses Malone?
- [64:42]
B
Yeah, Glasses Malone.
- [64:43]
A
Good old Glasses Malone.
- [64:44]
B
He like, bro out in la, bro, you know.
- [64:46]
A
Hey, he said, that's gonna stop. You do it again, we gonna have to. We gonna have to come over there or we'll make sure that that don't happen again is what Glasses said.
- [64:57]
B
What's his angle? What is he trying to accomplish here? Aiden Ross?
- [65:02]
A
Oh, I'm not certain what his angle is. I'm not familiar with some of these streamers and their community and how they go about things. I don't know. I can't say I'm familiar enough with him and his ecosystem to speak on it.
- [65:15]
B
I think him and Cassanette had a falling out about something that he had said something and then he was doing something with Puka. Remember Puka?
- [65:22]
A
I didn't like the Puka Nakua. I didn't like how that went down. I've just seen enough from him for me to say, yeah, something going on there and it's just not for me. But more importantly than that, yeah. How he was speaking about Dochi and the manner in which he felt comfortable doing so. Also him picking up the phone to call another black man to try to vouch for him doing that to a young black queen. Nah, nah.
- [65:53]
B
Is he the one that was talking about he could say the N word?
- [65:55]
A
He can't do that.
- [65:56]
B
Wasn't he the one?
- [65:57]
A
I think so. I've seen, I've seen clips from him with that. So I mean that.
- [66:02]
B
I don't, I'm not, I. I just don't.
- [66:04]
A
Yeah, I'm not with all of that.
- [66:06]
B
Yeah.
- [66:06]
A
And then even after, again, even after black people try to check it, they say, hey, you speaking this way, it might be cool how you was raised, but it's not cool here in this right space. He continued. He continued to do so. So not to. People had to make phone calls. Not to. Not until he started losing money did he stop.
- [66:27]
B
Right. Exactly.
- [66:29]
A
See, but we, we need that example. We need the example of, hey, you can't just get on these platforms willy nilly saying whatever you want to say about black people and there be no recourse, no repercussion, no. At least deep dive into the instance. There has to be some type of. They never responded to a loser money.
- [66:51]
B
Great.
- [66:51]
A
And it's never been the case because you've always been able to just walk all over us and keep your. It doesn't happen yeah. So, yeah, we needed that example.
- [67:00]
B
Eric Benay said something. He said, we keep inviting y' all to the cookout, but when are you guys gonna invite us to the boardroom?
- [67:08]
A
I saw him say that. I saw him say that.
- [67:14]
B
We quick to. Hey, he or she can come to the killcot.
- [67:17]
A
I ain't a fan. I'm not a fan.
- [67:19]
B
You won't let nobody come to the Kilcot, Joe?
- [67:20]
A
I'm not gonna say nobody. I got a lot of white people I'm really fond of, right? And they're great cook.
- [67:26]
B
They come. But you let them bring a dish.
- [67:28]
A
Out, people know they can't bring a dish.
- [67:29]
B
You know, you already know the mashed potato gonna have raisins on it now. Actually, my man.
- [67:34]
A
My man Parks maybe could bring a dish, but he's a chef.
- [67:36]
B
Okay.
- [67:39]
A
I understand what Eric Benet is trying to say. I'm not sure I would have said it that way, but I understand. I understand what he's. What he's trying to say. But then again, I'm not with Shannon. I ain't with waiting on invites from people either. I don't jive with that. I'm from Build it yourself, do it yourself. I'm not asking for handouts. I'm not begging nobody. I'm not convincing nobody. I'm not. It's too much. It's too much. It's too much going on in the. In the business world for me to have to concern myself with all of that. There's been times where I was supposed to get the deal. I didn't get the deal because 90 people had to sign off on me getting a deal. 90 people not going to sign off on. On me making more than probably 45% of them. It's like, this is. What game are we playing here? I don't have time for that. Do it on your own. I'm not asking nobody for an invite nowhere.
- [68:30]
B
Where are you on streaming?
- [68:33]
A
I mean, you gotta be a fan of it. Everything is streaming.
- [68:37]
B
You. You die. Are we gonna see Joe Budden on the stream?
- [68:42]
A
Maybe. I mean, I'm not against it. I try to do age appropriate shit. It seemed like the young people have taken over, but I don't view it like that. I don't view it. So, yeah, yeah, you may see me on it. That's not my focus right now, but I'm. I'm a fan of it. I'm a fan of it.
- [68:59]
B
Speed. I mean, he's. He does a great job because he. All over the world and he does I mean, he's a hell of an athlete, too. I mean, you see that? He can run, he can jump. I mean. No, no, he legit.
- [69:10]
A
No, no, he legit. Is that. I don't know much else about him, but he's really, really, really big and pause and. Yeah, yeah. Hell of an athlete. Hell of an athlete. Jumping over cars. Every time you see him, he's flipping over some shit. He's racing people. He's in great shape. Oh, what it is to be young.
- [69:28]
B
Yeah.
- [69:29]
A
Oh, what it is to be young. I used to grab a hell of a rebound down at the park.
- [69:34]
B
Yeah. I'm done with it now. They're gonna let me do nothing.
- [69:37]
A
Every morning there's a new ache and creek somewhere that there's some shit happened in my elbow. You know how old you gotta be to get. Have something happen in your elbow the.
- [69:46]
B
Other day and you ain't even do nothing.
- [69:48]
A
Yeah, no, I ain't do shit.
- [69:49]
B
I ain't do gym. Just woke up the next morning and I hurt.
- [69:52]
A
Yeah, no, one day it's my knee. You in there at the gym just doing knee shit so you could show up like a man and have sex properly without catching a thigh cramp in the middle of some shit. Jesus.
- [70:07]
B
Are streamers. Are they more popular than rappers?
- [70:10]
A
Now you such a troublemaker. Why are you. Who we trying to.
- [70:14]
B
Because you. Because you a podcaster, you say you about to get in streamers.
- [70:19]
A
I did not say I'm about to get in the stream. I'm saying it's not off the table.
- [70:23]
B
You about to get into it.
- [70:24]
A
I don't know. I don't know about that.
- [70:26]
B
Cause guess what's on that table.
- [70:29]
A
Well, I wanna be able to. I wanna be able to license my show to streaming platforms always. So, yeah, we wanna be in it. We wanna be in it. Yeah, that way. We wanna be in it. But are streamers more popular than rappers? Some, yeah. Some shit.
- [70:49]
B
Yeah.
- [70:49]
A
They getting opportunities. Constant app. They let him stream the awards show.
- [70:54]
B
Yes. That's unheard of.
- [70:56]
A
They got him at All Star Weekend with camera rights like he was.
- [71:00]
B
And was he. Yeah, he was at a award show.
- [71:04]
A
He's everywhere.
- [71:04]
B
Yes.
- [71:05]
A
Yeah.
- [71:06]
B
Things that we thought were like, these used to be sacred. They ain't let nobody scream nothing. That mean you don't know, but nothing. All this. And they're like. Because this where the kids are. If you want a different set of eyeballs, these kids.
- [71:19]
A
Well, you gotta give. You gotta give with the times. Yes. And so many times. We'll kick a company's back in because they just won't update or change with the times. So one glad to see y' all trying to incorporate some of these new, young, fresh streamer faces in what you're doing. If you want to see success in what you're doing. See, that's the message.
- [71:40]
B
Okay?
- [71:42]
A
You could have been doing this for ages. If you don't acknowledge these personalities and their infrastructure, you won't be here anymore. It's not dumbness leaving somewhere. So, yeah, you got to acknowledge that kaisernet's show is bigger than your networks. Yes. Tv. Your linear TV networks.
- [72:07]
B
Yeah, he's getting a million cable currents.
- [72:09]
A
Cable networks.
- [72:10]
B
Yes.
- [72:11]
A
This is the new. This is the new late night television. This is the new place where the celebrity has to come and pop in. Oh, nice place you got here. Like, this is where they're digesting this. Not over there, where y' all are spending hundreds and millions and millions and millions of dollars. So don't come over here. If we have an understanding of that, don't come over here now and short me. Right. I have a clear understanding of what position I'm in. What position y' all in.
- [72:42]
B
Correct.
- [72:43]
A
Let's talk. Let's talk nice when we come to this table.
- [72:46]
B
Because if you see a lot, a lot of these linear television are getting these guys to make appearances or show up at these award shows or show up at these basketball games because they know these eyeballs, these young eyeballs are watching them. And so if we want to get them, and I don't have a problem with that, because the one thing we know about kids, they gonna spend money. If they ain't got it, their parents gonna spend money.
- [73:09]
A
Sure enough, they gonna get it. One way or another, it's gonna get got.
- [73:13]
B
That's why they keep making animations. Cause guess what, that's four tickets. Mom, dad, and the kids.
- [73:20]
A
Yeah, the family. Cracking em. Cracking em.
- [73:24]
B
Your son, is he trying to. Isn't he trying to go to Streamer University?
- [73:28]
A
My oldest. My oldest, my boy Trey. Yeah, apparently. Apparently. Yeah. On the Internet, you like.
- [73:36]
B
Hey, hold on.
- [73:37]
A
He online.
- [73:38]
B
This is like a college. I mean, you trying to go to. He doing an audition.
- [73:42]
A
He doing an audition online.
- [73:44]
B
So, I mean, my kid always puts.
- [73:46]
A
Me in an interesting spot where I have to think of how I feel as a dad versus how I felt when that was me. Right? Cause he's always doing probably something close.
- [73:57]
B
To what I would have did. But as a dad, I'd be like.
- [73:59]
A
What the are you doing out here? But, yeah, he did that. He did that online. I don't know if somebody ever hit him back, but I like it. I like it.
- [74:10]
B
As long as he ain't in trouble, you good?
- [74:13]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's his version. That's the new version of Cipher. Like, in my day, I would drive around every hood, try to hop in a cipher, try to rap to anybody that could hear me. Today you're trying to get on the most popular stream so people can hear you rap. If that's what you want to do. I support it wholeheartedly. Please.
- [74:31]
B
How close is he to you when he was that. When you were that age?
- [74:37]
A
In terms of what behavior?
- [74:39]
B
Mannerisms.
- [74:40]
A
To a T. With all of that. To a T. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We. We both love a crash out. Hey. Hey. Both a real sucker for love at around 23, 24.
- [74:57]
B
Correct.
- [74:59]
A
But no, all of that stuff down to a T. I thought you meant with the music. And even. Even that he's. He's rapping. I think I got my start maybe a little earlier than that. Right. But I'm proud. I'm proud of who he is. I'm proud of how he thinks, how he shows up for himself, his determination, his work ethic. It's fun. It's. It's fun sitting in this seat and watching your kids grow. That's fun.
- [75:25]
B
Is it hard, though, Joe? Because you gotta look at it now. He's in a very different situation than what you were in when you his age because you is his father who has money. I don't know if you're dead. I don't know your situation, your socioeconomic economics when you were growing up, but I can assume his situation is a lot different than your situation.
- [75:46]
A
Yeah, but he's super humble. Cause he wasn't raised. That wasn't his upbringing. Cause I didn't have it like that his whole life. One and two. That's not. That's not the. His mother did a really good job of implementing certain rules in the house and raising him a certain way. So I gotta give her all the credit in the world for that. My son ain't on it like that. He ain't on it like that. But awesome that that has changed. And that is his experience. Yes, awesome that. And I mean, I say that, but it could be tough, too. It could be tough, too. When your dad has a certain name and his expectations and he got that same name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It could get tough. It could get tough. But he's doing a good job, man.
- [76:38]
B
How often does he come to you for advice?
- [76:42]
A
He usually always comes to me for advice. That's one of the things we were pretty good at early. It's normally a shock for me if I hear something from him, not from him, right? I'm like, oh, that's happening. And I didn't know. I would be surprised at that. We talk, right? We talk.
- [77:03]
B
This concludes the first half of my conversation. Part two is also posted, and you can access it to whichever podcast platform you just listen to part one on. Just simply go back to Club Shay Shay Profile and I'll see you there.