Deebo & Joe - MNF REACTION: Jalen Hurts ATROCIOUS in Eagles loss to Chargers

Summary

Club Shay Shay – Deebo & Joe: MNF Reaction – Jalen Hurts ATROCIOUS in Eagles Loss to Chargers

Date: December 9, 2025
Host: James “Deebo” Harrison
Co-host: Joe Hayden

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode is a deep-dive, play-by-play breakdown and passionate reaction to the Monday Night Football matchup between the Philadelphia Eagles and the Los Angeles Chargers. Hosts Deebo (James Harrison) and Joe Hayden deliver sharp, candid analysis of a turnover-heavy contest, focusing on Jalen Hurts’ struggles, Herbert’s gritty performance post-surgery, and key moments that determined the dramatic overtime finish. They also discuss broader NFL issues, team dynamics, defense, and listener questions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Turnover-Filled MNF Thriller

• Exciting Yet Error-Prone Game: The hosts open by expressing shock and excitement at how entertaining a game with so many turnovers could be.

  • “I never thought I would be that excited about a game that had that many turnovers.” — Deebo (02:03)
  • “I had a blast watching it, though.” — Joe Hayden (02:11)

• Early Game Flow & Drive Details:

  • Eagles' First Drive: Near-miss deep to AJ Brown, steady Saquon Barkley gains, Hurts-to-Goddard conversions.
  • Chargers' First Drive: Vidal rips off a 60-yard catch-and-run, capped by Herbert's TD pass to Hampton.
  • “I kind of thought the game was going to be higher scoring than that after that first drive, to be honest…” — Deebo (04:17)

• Line Play Observations:

  • Praise and critique for specific lineman performances, especially Eagles' struggles on offensive and Chargers defender #99 getting “moved around.” (04:47–05:07, 13:17–13:29)

2. Jalen Hurts' Tough Night

• Interceptions & Mistakes:

  • Detailed breakdowns of Hurts’ four interceptions and other turnovers, including a wild play with a pick, fumble, and recovery all in one sequence (09:23–10:21).
    • “This dude got an interception, a fumble recovery, and you fumbled it, you recovered it, and you intercepted it all. And you got intercepted all in one.” — Deebo (34:50)
  • The hosts scrutinize Hurts’ decision-making and take issue with red zone inefficiency:
    • “Too many field goals they had to settle for, along with too many turnovers, period. And, like, untimely turnovers, you know, four interceptions.” (33:50)

• AJ Brown’s “Business Decision”:

  • After a Hurts INT, hosts call out Brown for pulling back to avoid a hit:
    • “AJ got them gator arms seeing that boy come down…and he said, I gotta get my hands down faster than I gotta worry about catching this ball… you making $35 million a year. I need you to expose yourself to that hit.” — Joe Hayden (23:02)

• Clever DB Play Callouts:

  • Defensive breakdowns, e.g., on pass breakups, “Dice” coverage, and textbook plays by both Eagles and Chargers DBs (24:33–26:55, 33:37–33:48).
    • “He didn’t drop it. The defensive back Rick did put his hand in that bucket the same time.” — Joe (25:58)

3. Justin Herbert's Gritty Performance

• Playing Through Injury:

  • Chargers QB Herbert described as “running for his life” behind a battered O-line, just seven days after hand surgery.
    • “Yo, he just toughed it out. Seven days after having your hand surgically repaired, this boy got metal in his hand, like…but they gonna need to get him some protection. He go get killed out there.” — Deebo (34:42–34:57)
    • “You got a gladiator out there. Herbert that's fighting for his life, he know that they ain't gonna really do too much without him.” — Joe (35:04)
  • Herbert's use of legs, key scrambles, and poise under repeated pressure are praised.

• O-Line & RB Issues:

  • Repeated criticism of pass protection, including the running back Hampton's failures in “backs on backers.” (12:36–13:29, 17:38–17:47)

4. Play Calling / Coaching Decisions

• Critical Commentary:

  • Hosts highlight questionable play calls (run calls with Hurts, failed red-zone conversions).
    • “Sometimes they play. Call them with just a little...That's why they egg in this house, man…” — Deebo (05:35)

• Schematics & Defensive Philosophy:

  • In the back half, Deebo and Joe discuss broader trends in NFL defensive schemes, player development, and communication breakdowns, referencing their own playing days and the Dick LeBeau defense.
    • “It was things that was being told different by different people for the same defense...They want us to do it this way, we can't do it that way.” — Deebo (52:47)

5. Key Moments and Clutch Performances

• Red Zone Struggles & Missed Opportunities:
  • Eagles settling for field goals, Chargers’ timely defensive plays (33:50, 33:48–34:42).
• Momentum Swings:
  • Fumbles, wild turnovers, and missed field goals before the half maintain the back-and-forth drama.
• Overtime:
  • Chargers methodically work for the game-winning field goal. A pivotal defensive play (corner sitting between routes in cover-2, “baiting” Hurts to throw) seals the victory for LA. (32:31–33:48)
    • “He got that hand on that ball, Satan was able to get to it. Game over. Over. Game over.” — Deebo (33:35)

6. AFC North and Steelers/Browns Talk

• Steelers’ Prospects & Rodgers Commentary:
  • The discussion pivots to AFC North, Steelers’ fluctuating offense, reliance on Aaron Rodgers, and calls for consistency.
  • “You go into business with Aaron Rodgers for days like this.” — Deebo quoting Mike Tomlin (38:31)
• Browns’ QB Situation & Playing for Pride:
  • Joe emphasizes staying motivated and fighting for your future and teammates, especially when mathematically eliminated (56:22–59:33).

7. Listener Questions & Fan Engagement

• Loyalty:
  • “You both have played for multiple teams. Do you still care about the other teams or just black and gold?”
  • Joe is “split loyalty” (Steelers & Browns). Deebo is “black and gold all day.” (61:52–63:04)
• Charity/Camp:
  • Fans prompt the idea of a “Steel Curtain” camp for teenagers, which both hosts support (60:08–63:59).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Hurts' historic turnover play:

• “He got a pick, a fumble recovery, and a fumble in the same play...I think that's the first time in history.” — Deebo (10:18–10:25)

On running backs in pass protection:

• “You know what that was, Debo. You know? Exactly. Backs on backers...What kind of linebacker are you?...You expected to run through that man. So that's exactly what he did.” — Joe (12:36)

On Herbert's toughness:

• “Yo, he just toughed it out. Seven days after having your hand surgically repaired, this boy got metal in his hand.” — Deebo (34:42)

On playoff hopes and team culture:

• “Once you get mathematically eliminated, people start acting funny...you may not be with the Browns, but just fight for that next team.” — Joe (58:58–59:24)

On team loyalty:

• “I'm black and gold all day...I appreciate what they did for me...but if it's the steel, the black and gold against Cincinnati...I gotta go black and gold.” — Deebo (62:09–62:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |----------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:38–02:11 | Show open, excitement over the wild MNF with lots of turnovers | | 03:12–04:22 | Chargers' strong opening drive | | 09:23–10:25 | Wild turnover sequence: Pick, fumble, fumble recovery on same play | | 13:17–13:29 | Critique of Chargers’ D-lineman #99, O-line play | | 14:31–15:05 | Pre-halftime: Interception, late hit penalty, missed FG | | 15:29–16:33 | 16-play, 9:30 drive by Chargers to open 2nd half | | 23:01–23:59 | AJ Brown “gator arms” on interception, receiver responsibility | | 25:51–26:55 | DB makes clutch pass breakup on A.J. Brown late in game | | 27:14–28:14 | Key Chargers third-down scramble; crucial late-game decisions | | 32:31–33:48 | Overtime: Corner “baiting” Hurts, game-sealing INT | | 34:42–35:35 | Herbert’s performance with surgically repaired hand | | 38:31–39:51 | Steelers discussion, Aaron Rodgers, division/scheme talk | | 61:52–63:04 | Listener Q: Team loyalty—Steelers vs Browns | | 60:08–63:59 | Discussion of “Steel Curtain” camp, fan shout-outs |

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Style, Tone, and Flow

Deebo and Joe’s analysis is candid, direct, and laced with laughter, friendly jabs, and player-insider knowledge—mixing technical football breakdowns with “real talk” about toughness, ego, and the locker-room mentality. They keep it real for both casual fans and football junkies, often referencing their own careers and demystifying coaching or player choices.

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Takeaways for Non-Listeners

• The episode is a lively, insightful recap of a chaotic Monday Night Football game, where quarterback miscues, defensive opportunism, and gutsy, injured performances shaped a dramatic overtime finish.
• Listeners get a sharp critique of play calling, protection issues, and a rare “turnover hat trick” from Jalen Hurts.
• The hosts’ chemistry, humor, and depth make the analysis rich for anyone interested in both Xs and Os and football culture.
• Fan engagement is woven throughout, concluding with charity discussion and playful banter about team loyalties.

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For more, catch the full breakdown on the Club Shay Shay feed. Don’t miss Deebo and Joe’s Friday follow-up for further AFC/NFL analysis and more locker-room banter.

Transcript

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[James Debo Harrison]

Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first.

There, the last one.

Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.

Welcome back to Deebo and Joe. I'm your host James Debo Harrison. I'm here with my co host Joe Hayden. Please make sure you guys like and subscribe. You don't want to miss nothing today. How you doing today, Joe?

[Joe Hayden]

Doing great, Debo. Lovely, lovely, lovely. Tuesday, my brother. Always good time on here with you, my guy.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Man, that was a, that, that was a game yesterday. Wasn't it though.

Devo? Super excited, yo. Out of control, exciting. I, I never thought I would be that excited about a game that had that many turnovers.

[Joe Hayden]

I was rewinding the game and I'm like this, baby, you gotta see this, you gotta see this stuff. Like, it was just super exciting, bro. I had a blast watching it though.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, man, I want to go through this detail, man. You just get out there. In the very first play, they go deep to AJ man, and it was just off his fingertips, man. Incomplete. That they could have connected that first play.

[Joe Hayden]

The game long foul ball. That was, that would have been, that would have been huge.

[James Debo Harrison]

That would have been huge for him. They go back. Second down, I think Saquan got two and then third and nine. Herz hits. What is it? Goddard. Goddard. Yeah, he hits Goddard for nine right there.

First down they handed to Saquon again. I think he gets like three.

Short one to Dotson for three and then third down and four, hurts gets sacked more of a cover sack than anything else. He had to work his way up out of it. Coverage and sack working together. Coverage in rush work.

[Joe Hayden]

Russia coverage.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, for sure. They end up punting the ball. Chargers get out there. Vidal hits the first one for three. Second one I believe was an incompletion. He just. He just looked like he dropped that one.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

And then third and seven, Herbert dumps it to Vidal. And that boy goes 60 yards to the 17 of Philly. Dude, I don't.

[Joe Hayden]

That was a huge play.

[James Debo Harrison]

I didn't think he was gonna get caught. And then the linebacker started running him down, though.

[Joe Hayden]

I was like, man, monkey jumped on Vidal back.

[James Debo Harrison]

Hey, didn't it?

[Joe Hayden]

Elbow started running underwater. His legs started getting heavy.

[James Debo Harrison]

Now get the rook back. He went in, he went and ran one for about 11 on the next play. And I think it was maybe two after that. And on the third down, Herbert, he finished it off to Hampton for a four yard touchdown.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes.

[James Debo Harrison]

7 0. That seemed like it very easy for them to get down.

I kind of thought the game was going to be higher scoring than that after that first drive, to be honest with you, brother.

[Joe Hayden]

Oh, for sure. I mean, especially the way the Chargers, they walked it down there, you know, walked down super easy. I'm hoping that the Eagles gonna play a little bit better defense, but. Yeah, it was. It was. It was a lot more to come.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, it was a whole lot more to come. Eagles get back out there. Saquon, he gonna get him a hot 19, then turn right back around. Get.

[Joe Hayden]

Get 10 back to back. First down.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yo, whoever 99 was, he was getting moved around last night. Dude. I seen one play, he got like double hooked, dude. Like, he got double reached on for the charges. Yeah, he was. He was. He was on the. He was on the center and got reached by the guard like he was. He was. They put him two gaps behind.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, no, that. That's. That ain't gonna get it done. They ain't gonna get the job done, Debo.

[James Debo Harrison]

No.

It turns it into second and 20. Saquon, he picks up about 8 of that. Then third and 12, they convert. Hurts his. Got it again. Dallas again, dude. Another. It was a 13 on that one.

[Joe Hayden]

Yep.

[James Debo Harrison]

And then they ended up trying to do like a run. Why would they try and run that with him then? I don't even know.

[Joe Hayden]

I don't know.

Sometimes they play. Call them with just a little.

[James Debo Harrison]

That's why they egg in this house, man. That's why they egging. I'm just trying to tell you that's why they egging.

[Joe Hayden]

They need to. Don't egg the man.

[James Debo Harrison]

Hey, I'm just telling you.

[Joe Hayden]

They keep calling that.

[James Debo Harrison]

You keep. You keep doing like that might be, you know. Hey, her scramble.

Third down, man. Smith, I think he only got like a Yard. They just closed in on him so fast, dude. Them boys was breaking down to him. End up having to settle for a field goal. It's 3 to 7, then Chargers get back out there. The first play, I don't know how Herbert, he. He shook a sack, man. He dumped it to Hampton again. I think he got seven on that one. And then second he got dropped. I think they dropped.

[Joe Hayden]

Met him in the backfield.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, they dropped him for four, dude. Davis, he was an issue for them.

[Joe Hayden]

He was a man in there, bro.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, on that run game, Davis for them, man. Definitely. Then the Chargers end up false starting. I think that kicked them to like 3rd and 12 or something. And then they get the interception. I think it was. But because they was offsides, Herbert, you know, he already knew he had a free. Free play.

[Joe Hayden]

Free play. Yep.

[James Debo Harrison]

So he just threw it down there. I think the next play he eluded like another sack, but it was incomplete. He just threw. He. He just threw it away. They end up punting the ball again. Yo, they was. I don't know how long this dude go last behind that offensive line, bro.

[Joe Hayden]

Oh my goodness, bro. And he. Look, he is off a surgery. A month.

[James Debo Harrison]

No, a week ago, seven days, bro.

[Joe Hayden]

He's still getting beat up. I was feeling like it still didn't get to the point. He was getting hit, running a little bit. But as the game started progressing, you saw like the hits more and more. More and more. He started handing it off with the wrong damn hand. I'm like, yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

Cause yeah, he got popped.

[Joe Hayden]

Nobody touching that joint.

[James Debo Harrison]

He had a little pain for a minute. He had to switch. He had to switch hands on there. Eagles. Get back out there. And I think it was Pyramid ended up dropping Saquon for a loss on the first play.

[Joe Hayden]

And that's Debo. That's the thing I was saying too. A lot of the things when Saquon was running, he was either getting into the secondary or they were hitting him before he can get going. Hitting him in the backfield. It was one.

[James Debo Harrison]

One or two. Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't really that much in between.

Yeah, I think it was second down hurts it was it Smith of six, third down. He ended up throwing it high. It was intercepted. But on review, they saw the ball hit.

[Joe Hayden]

The ball hit the ground.

[James Debo Harrison]

They got lucky on that one because what was that? That would have been what, five.

[Joe Hayden]

That have been five picks.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, yeah. So they end. They put the ball and then the rook get back out there on the first down. I think he took it for like, 15.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah. But it don't matter.

[James Debo Harrison]

The next play, they ended up getting a holding penalty.

I think Herbert scrambles for about five. Next two plays was just incomplete. They punt the Rock away. Yeah. Yeah. They punt the Rock away. Eagles get the ball back. The first.

[Joe Hayden]

First run again.

[James Debo Harrison]

Dropped him for a loss. Yeah, they dropped him for a loss again. And then second down, they had an illegal contact penalty that gave him a first. Yep. And then preview. And then the preceding second down, he hit. He hit Dallas again for 16 to get another first down. I think it was second to seven, eight, something like that. They ended up picking up 16 there. And then Hurts hits that man for 20.

[Joe Hayden]

A.J. brown.

[James Debo Harrison]

A.J. brown for 22, I believe. They get to, like, the third down. It was.

[Joe Hayden]

And they get to the third and two.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Joe Hayden]

Third and two. And in the wildest play I've ever seen, ever. My life happens because I figure out. I started realizing how many stats happen in that play. Yes, it's a pick. It's an intercept.

[James Debo Harrison]

Listen, bro, I'm gonna tell you this right now.

[Joe Hayden]

It's a fumble recovery.

[James Debo Harrison]

I'm gonna tell you this right now. As soon as dude caught that ball and he started to run, I was like, he's about to fumble.

[Joe Hayden]

He started running like he didn't even.

[James Debo Harrison]

Know how to hold on to it, bro.

Like, what are you doing? I'm like, he ain't even putting it away. He holding it straight up and down like a loaf of bread, man.

[Joe Hayden]

He looked back, got punched directly out.

[James Debo Harrison]

Punched directly out and then got slung to the ground. Hurts, go ahead. He picks it up. I'm like, oh, man, they done got lucky. They done got it back. Give me that. I expect him to fumble. He fumbles.

[Joe Hayden]

So, yeah, my man Herz got a fumble. He got a pick.

[James Debo Harrison]

He got a pick.

[Joe Hayden]

A fumble recovery and a fumble.

[James Debo Harrison]

He got a pick, a fumble. Recovery and a fumble.

[Joe Hayden]

And a fumble in the same play.

[James Debo Harrison]

I think that's the first time in history.

[Joe Hayden]

And then my man went. And I love the way they fell on the ball. Not having his feet out of bounds, looking crazy, not rushing. He fell right on that ball. Right on. Bound right in bounds. I'm like this. Thank you. Way to be a professional. Not panic. Have your legs off your feet, out of bounds, you landing on the ball. I'm like, what are they doing? So good job by him falling on the ball and not looking crazy.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, Chargers get the ball back. Think V went a hot eight on the first one. Then third down, Herbic hits Harris for like, 18 again across the body pressured. He's moving around, and he's making these throws, man.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes, bro.

[James Debo Harrison]

Like, with. With the hand jacked and all that. Like, dude. Yeah. They got him some protection. Do you. He could do.

[Joe Hayden]

I think some of. I think that the linemen are hurt, too, but he's back there getting smacked. You got to protect your investment. He's. He's not soft. He's out there fighting for his life.

[James Debo Harrison]

So you're right.

[Joe Hayden]

If they protect the man, it'll be good.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes, yes. They hand it to Vidal again. He got six on the first down. They get the third down, and they sack Herbert. They end up having to settle for the field goal. What is it, 10 to 7 now?

[Joe Hayden]

10 to 3?

[James Debo Harrison]

10. Yeah. 10. 3. Okay.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

10 to 3 now, dude. The Eagles get back out there. The second play, Hurts is intercepted again.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes, brother. That's just great. Corner play, dice concept. Little slip, little slip, little slip, but great play. Great. He knew it was Dice. He saw that. He saw that tight end go to the flat. It's Dice. It's like a five people on the dice. You got two curls, you got two people in the flat, and you got somebody sitting over the ball. He saw him sit, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. He broke on that beautifully, man. Slipped and fell, but that's just unfortunate. Great defensive play. Sorry you had to slip and fall, but that was just. That's a. I love that as a db. I'm like, oh, yeah, go get your money.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, go.

[Joe Hayden]

Give me.

[James Debo Harrison]

Give me that. Give me that. Chargers, get back out there. First play. Sack, fumble. Recovered. As much as Hampton helped him running the ball, he was a serious liability in pass protection.

[Joe Hayden]

Last. You know. You know what that was, Debo. You know? Exactly. Backs on backers. Yes, Backs on backers. He saw that, man. And if you have your back, your backer on the back, you're going to win that. I'm. You're. That's the job.

[James Debo Harrison]

You do not win. We did not win.

[Joe Hayden]

What kind of linebacker are you? You know what I'm saying? They like. No. You expected to run through that man. So that's exactly what he did. I said, oh, Deo's gonna love this. That's backs on back all day.

[James Debo Harrison]

No. Yes. No question. No. If you don't do nothing else, you got to at least push him into his lap.

[Joe Hayden]

You know, you see him through that running back as a backer.

[James Debo Harrison]

Easy. First down, Barkley come up out there. He getting nine. Then second down, he getting five.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah. They went crazy.

[James Debo Harrison]

He getting 13 again. That was the play. 99 that got double scooped on. Like, I don't know. Like I said, I don't, I. I don't know what was going on, but.

[Joe Hayden]

He had, he had a tough day.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah. Second and seven. Hurts to AJ again.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes. 11.

[James Debo Harrison]

They get to the next second down. Hurts the Dallas got her again. 411. And it's another first down. Like, I think they, they got like, maybe they got to their next first down and it was like, maybe like they, they got maybe two yards or something like that. They ended up coming away with only like a, a field goal because they had a holding on the second and it was actually, I think it was a touchdown.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, it was a touchdown. And that joint got called back for holding.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yep.

[Joe Hayden]

Hurts fumbled the joint and it fell on the Jones.

[James Debo Harrison]

They got lucky all the way through that.

[Joe Hayden]

Everybody was getting lucky. It could have been at least four more turnovers.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, Yeah. I think it ended up getting a field going on that one, right? It was six to ten.

[Joe Hayden]

Six to ten.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah. Six to ten. And then charges. Get out there. It ain't nothing but like what, 50 seconds left, 48 seconds left, something like that.

[Joe Hayden]

Trying to see if they can go get some points before halftime.

[James Debo Harrison]

Dude. And third down, he is intercepted and is having had his arm hit. The thing just flopped up in the air. And then to add to it, the.

[Joe Hayden]

You know, the running back. Well, see that, that's, that, that's the extra. Why are you trying to slam your man? You hear the whistle blowing, you're frustrated, but that's going to cost you 15. Like, that's the dumb stuff. I hate when people do, like, you hear the whistle, boom. I'm like, what was that for, Coach? You mad? And now you got us looking crazy.

[James Debo Harrison]

That put him at the, I think the 30 of LA when the Eagles got the ball back. But the field goal kicker goes out there, they try to play. Field goal kicker goes out there and he misses the field goal. Halftime still 6 to 10.

[Joe Hayden]

Yep.

[James Debo Harrison]

And the Chargers come out and they work their way down the field.

[Joe Hayden]

This drive was long.

[James Debo Harrison]

Long, dude. I think it was like 16 plays or something like that, bro.

[Joe Hayden]

9 minutes and 30 seconds.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah.

[Joe Hayden]

A lot of third down conversions.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, yeah. Herbert scrambled, I think for two of the first downs. The longest one being the third down. I think he went for like 15 and then he got out of another sack on that, like, dude, he could. They could have sacked him about 10, 12 times, dude.

[Joe Hayden]

For sure, for sure.

[James Debo Harrison]

And then they go and Kick the field goal is good, but dude gets a penalty for leverage. Dude, he didn't even try. And not leverage. He looked like he actually went there to leverage.

[Joe Hayden]

He was like, what. What are you doing? Like, like it was like, right? Like, the coach told him, what you need to do is go push on his back as hard as you can and see. See how high you can get. I was like, what are you doing?

[James Debo Harrison]

What in the world is he doing? Bro?

[Joe Hayden]

Didn't even go high.

[James Debo Harrison]

They end up getting lucky. Well, defense stood up too, and they got lucky. But they defensively, Philly like nine.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes, bro. They defense standing up, they end up.

[James Debo Harrison]

Holding them to a field goal. So it don't. It don't. It don't increase them too bad. It's 6 to 13 now.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes, sir.

[James Debo Harrison]

And this is when Philly came out on the kickoff return and they fumbled it. They got lucky on that return that.

[Joe Hayden]

It bounced that way. But the bounce, if it would have bounced any other way, he just was lucky, dude.

[James Debo Harrison]

Very, very, very lucky dude. First down, I Think Hurts. Hits AJ for like 26.

Chargers end up being able to hold. They hold him to a field goal. 9 to 13 now, right?

[Joe Hayden]

Yep.

[James Debo Harrison]

And the Chargers come out there and they basically go three and out with a sack fumble. They got lucky to recover.

[Joe Hayden]

That's the one. Almost really messed his hand up.

[James Debo Harrison]

And then, you know, the.

The. The. The second down, they got the whole beat again. Dude got beat again for the sack. That was the sack like he get. Dude. Hampton was. He was. He helped him running, but that was another.

[Joe Hayden]

Backs on backers.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes. He was a serious liability in it.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

Man in the class. Protection, dude. Like it looks like everybody liability in the past. Protection.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

Out there running for his. Running for his life. Yes. Yes. Get back out there. And second down. Finally, McConkey getting one for 12. Then the next second down, Herbert ends up avoiding another sack. Scrambles for seven.

[Joe Hayden]

Come out. We after. After. They got the back to back the back, some backers, and they punted it to the Eagles. That's when they got the. That's when the Eagles end up scoring.

[James Debo Harrison]

Oh, you're right. They had 55 yard touchdown.

[Joe Hayden]

We had the fake tush push.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes, the fake tush push on 31.

[Joe Hayden]

I call that the tush toss.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes.

[Joe Hayden]

Because you line up for the.

[James Debo Harrison]

Quan got loose on him.

[Joe Hayden]

52.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah. 16, 13.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes. Yes, yes. I was waiting on that tushy. Yeah. I said, oh, that was nice.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah. So they gonna stop. Yeah, they gonna stop holding that, you know, putting everybody up in there. Hey, I ain't gonna lie, it looked like he might have got away with a little hold over there too.

[Joe Hayden]

Oh, they l hello.

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Joe Hayden]

Sure he did. Hey, for sure he did.

[James Debo Harrison]

He whole.

[Joe Hayden]

He held.

[James Debo Harrison]

He had him by his back, like.

[Joe Hayden]

They didn't call it. So that's why I didn't acknowledge it. My bad.

[James Debo Harrison]

I'm just saying. I seen it.

[Joe Hayden]

I seen the two.

[James Debo Harrison]

I think I seen it. I see. I think. Yeah. Now the charges get back out there.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes, sir.

[James Debo Harrison]

Second down, Herbert goes ahead, and he hits McConkey. Getting my hot 12.

[Joe Hayden]

There we go. Get involved, McConkey.

[James Debo Harrison]

I was looking for McConkey. Yeah. The next second down, Herbert avoids another sack. I think he gained seven. But the Eagles defense was able to do what they needed to do. Hold them down, get them to punt the rock.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes, sir.

[James Debo Harrison]

Eagles. Get back out there, man. I think it's the punter.

[Joe Hayden]

When they punted it to him, he almost. He was bobbling it and got face mask.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah.

[Joe Hayden]

Punt joint, too. I don't know how he kept the ball.

[James Debo Harrison]

I don't know how they didn't call that face, man. I think because they didn't call the other one, and it looked like it could have been the same way.

[Joe Hayden]

That's crazy. He gotta call. What are y' all looking at? He's the only person that got the ball.

[James Debo Harrison]

And it's that whole head. He turned that whole head. Yes. Yeah.

[Joe Hayden]

Referees need to start getting fined.

[James Debo Harrison]

First down hurts it, I think was Cooper for 19. And then he proceeds to throw another interception. But I' ma say this, that wasn't all his fault.

[Joe Hayden]

Heck, no, it wasn't.

[James Debo Harrison]

AJ got them gator arms seeing that boy come down there, and he said, I got to get my hands down faster than I got to worry about catching this ball so I don't get my MIG session lit up thousand percent.

[Joe Hayden]

Debo as that receiver, and you're making $35 million a year. I need you to expose yourself to that hit. You know what I'm saying? Like it is.

[James Debo Harrison]

I know. Maybe he was thinking, if I do that, who knows?

[Joe Hayden]

Next time, Debo don't even do that, man. Everybody got dirty stuff to their job, man.

[James Debo Harrison]

No question.

[Joe Hayden]

Go across that middle and catch that rock. You know what I'm saying? And bomb. Because he can't.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He can't.

[Joe Hayden]

He can't fold you like that was. That was a man.

[James Debo Harrison]

You gotta go ahead and get that and.

[Joe Hayden]

But that's it. But then, look, if you don't get it? It's a pick. And now you setting your team up for failure. And you want the rock. Aj, you the man. I love you, but you gotta have your quarterback feeling like this. If I'm throwing over there, worst case scenario, if it's a bad ball, I don't want it to be picked. But that's okay. That's an okay ball. You gotta go get that for me, please.

[James Debo Harrison]

All I had to do was keep the hands up a little higher. And actually, like, as soon as he went to jump to get it, he looked to see where somebody was at. And that was immediate nop.

They end up returning that one thing, I think it was to The Philly like 35. And then charges get out there. And I think the first play, Herbert got sacked. That was sack number six. By then, you know, they completed maybe one more first down, and again they had to settle for a field goal. Defense was able to do what they needed to do.

[Joe Hayden]

Eagles defense was answering calls and putting out forest fires the whole game, bro.

[James Debo Harrison]

Oh, dude.

[Joe Hayden]

Like, them dudes was hooping. Offense did not put them any good positions.

[James Debo Harrison]

No, they. They helped the cause too much, I'll tell you that. It just tied up 16, 16 now and then basically the Eagles and the Chargers, I think they traded back and forth three and outstanding. Philly ends up getting it and starting at the 40 after that punt return.

[Joe Hayden]

Yep.

[James Debo Harrison]

And it's. I think it's only like three. Little over three and a half minutes left to play. Second down hurts his AJ again. 16, but he actually broke that one.

[Joe Hayden]

Broke the tackle.

[James Debo Harrison]

Get him. He would have held on to him.

[Joe Hayden]

Hey. And now I thought he was about to hurdle buddy and stay in bounds and just get all the way up the sideline. That's what it looked like.

[James Debo Harrison]

I thought he had jumped it, but when he jumped him, I guess he jumped and slid out a little once. He jumped him instead of going. Yeah. Instead of going in for sure. And then the next second down hurts his AJ again. Big boy. Seen that time, big boy. Slants, dude. The following second down, guess, guess who, guess who.

To AJ Yes. Had the ball. Man, that DB made a hell of five play, bro.

[Joe Hayden]

Come on. Come on, Debo. That's. That's how you. It was like, oh, he dropped it. He didn't drop it. The defensive back Rick did put his hand in that bucket the same time.

[James Debo Harrison]

Got that arm. Yup.

[Joe Hayden]

So that's why he was looking at.

[James Debo Harrison]

He didn't get that chance to actually get it fully locked in so he could squeeze.

[Joe Hayden]

Ripping that Arm off. So now you can't catch the ball. That was perfect DB play, perfect timing. And A.J. brown knew he was like this. He knew he was like, that's just a great play. I gotta have that for sure. But he knocked it out. So like, great ball, great right there. But the defensive back, like, ah. That's how you make a play. That's a pass breakup.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, definitely. The competitor in the way he see himself, he wants to be great. He gotta have that. He said it himself.

[Joe Hayden]

So on the opposite side.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes.

[Joe Hayden]

It touched both of your hands. So you feel like, I need that. That's my ball for sure. As a db, I gotta have that pass breakup. That's real fight to the last. Last second.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes. Right there. They ended up, you know, keeping them to only a field goal. That's an extra four points. Not on the board. 19 to 16. Charges get back out there. They end up getting to. I think it was third and 10. It was incomplete, but it was a pass.

Gave him a first down.

[Joe Hayden]

That's huge, bro. That. It would have been over. It was a wrap.

[James Debo Harrison]

It would have been over. Over. Then that first down. Herbic scrambles. Hey, for seven. I'm gonna tell you right now, he is not stepping out of bounds right there. If that's me, he is in bounds.

[Joe Hayden]

Oh, no, no. For sure.

[James Debo Harrison]

That right there I would have felt like after the outcome had happened that I just lost us the game. Because that right there was. You would have fumbled to be like, nope, you can finish next week.

[Joe Hayden]

No, because at the end of the day, what you're saying, my man was running out of bounds to the angle where, like, there's no way. Cause if he would have hit him at the angle he was running, they were out of bounds. But if he would have went, he was coming.

[James Debo Harrison]

He was. He was already out of bounds. So when he came down, his foot would have been inbounds when he hit him.

[Joe Hayden]

Oh, no, no, no. I'm saying if he would have came at an angle to hit him, he could have hit him straight inbound.

[James Debo Harrison]

Easy, bro.

[Joe Hayden]

For sure. But I'm saying he was running out of bounds. Like just showing. Seeing he was coming. He was run.

[James Debo Harrison]

Running out of bounds. They're talking about. Good play nice. No, it's not.

[Joe Hayden]

You think he should have fumbled him. He should have just fumbed him. What?

[James Debo Harrison]

He inbounds, dude. You need to get out faster. Same thing with, with. With dart.

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[Joe Hayden]

No, a thousand percent.

[James Debo Harrison]

I just want to protect that hand and everything else.

[Joe Hayden]

He. He went. Yeah, he looked Out. He just looked out. Cause the DB ran out of bounds. Like, I know where you're running. I see somebody chasing you. I could fumb you, but I'm just like going to run in front of you out of bounds.

[James Debo Harrison]

Run in front of you out of. Dude, he look.

[Joe Hayden]

He looked out.

[James Debo Harrison]

He is. He had a whole foot in bounds, passed him.

[Joe Hayden]

He could have found. I'm not.

[James Debo Harrison]

I'm not.

[Joe Hayden]

He could have found him. He could have found. He could have found him. He could have phoned him.

[James Debo Harrison]

Next play. Vidal goes what, eight? And then third and four. Who scrambles for another first down? Herbert. That shouldn't probably even been in the game, right?

[Joe Hayden]

No broken hand.

[James Debo Harrison]

Like, Broken hand. Like you stomach shot anything, like something. That hand would have been tingling so bad, he wouldn't have been able to even try and throw it. Like.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, he got the first.

[James Debo Harrison]

Able to at least be there for the next couple plays.

Take away the scramble that led to a first down on third. Fold.

[Joe Hayden]

And then he gets another nine. Pulled it again. He started doing that little.

[James Debo Harrison]

It goes nine again.

Eagles able to hold them. They tie it up. It's 19. 19. We get into overtime.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes.

[James Debo Harrison]

Chargers get the ball to start.

[Joe Hayden]

And now we're pulling it again.

[James Debo Harrison]

Herbert's like 12.

[Joe Hayden]

Listen, I'm trying to win this thing.

[Odoo Advertiser]

12.

[James Debo Harrison]

Then Hampton go 18.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes.

[James Debo Harrison]

They get able to. They, you know, they able to stop it.

They got a great kicker over there.

They get the field goal. 22 to 19.

Yep. I'm like. I'm just thinking like, yo, if that's me. And we get to the point to where Philly is at now, and we lose this game, I am never doing that again. I am never. I ain't sparing nobody.

[Joe Hayden]

Oh, yeah, you talking about it. Yeah, you still talking, dude.

[James Debo Harrison]

I ain't spared all these plays. He done did. He ain't supposed even be in there doing.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, yeah, that. That would have been the finisher for sure because he did. Debo. You're exactly right. When I'm looking at the game, he could have peeled on him, but he. He didn't even have the intentions to peel on him. He just wanted to. He just ran in front of him like, oh, I could have hit you. Like, just basically showing him. But like. No, I. I know what you're saying.

[James Debo Harrison]

I did. I did, like, right across your midsection.

[Joe Hayden]

Bomb. He could have Bomb.

[James Debo Harrison]

Philly get out there. I think third and six. Hurt scrambles for what, 17. But they get a hold. They get a hold.

[Joe Hayden]

Self inflicted wounds, man.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes. And then they Let them convert.

[Joe Hayden]

Boy, that was the best ball. He threw it a day.

[James Debo Harrison]

28 yards. Dude. First down.

I'm like, oh, man, they. I'm like, yo, they must be trying. They. They trying to go ahead and get in this. Yeah, they trying to go ahead and give him this game, man. They get them down to 4th and 4. I think it was now when they.

[Joe Hayden]

Really tried to give him the game.

[James Debo Harrison]

This the illest stuff in Nebraska. What is you doing, bro? What you doing? They just call it timeout because the snap was gonna be too fast. You know, they got more time. They're going too hard. Count you. They got a kicker that can make that kick. Do they really want to snap that ball? If they ain't got to probably let the kicker go do it.

[Joe Hayden]

It ain't your water. Hold your water.

Bruh.

[James Debo Harrison]

He goes and gets into the neutral zone. Tackle does the responsible thing.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, get, get.

[James Debo Harrison]

Gets to moving. Then second down hurts. Hit Dallas again for 16. I think the next play, he, he, he get. What was it?

[Joe Hayden]

Oh, no, I think.

[James Debo Harrison]

Was it. Was it not worse than it was the next play? What happened to the next play?

[Joe Hayden]

Oh, yeah, the next thing. What happened next play with my man on the.

[James Debo Harrison]

I'm just. I'm trying to get you to tell.

[Joe Hayden]

Him what the corner. I'm like, this, the next play.

[James Debo Harrison]

What did the corner do? I want you to tell me everything.

[Joe Hayden]

The corner played it just like, you know who did it. You know who he did it like. James Pierre. That's that cover two. That's that high low. You got the. You got the flat route in front of you, and you got a seven route behind you. At the end of the day, he could have got to the low, but he was playing right there, right in between, perfect coverage. So he tell you baiting him. Throw that, throw that. Savage deep to short. I'm right here. I'm right here.

[James Debo Harrison]

I can play bite the cheese as Bus would say. Bus say, hey, don't bite the cheese. Don't bite the cheese. Most of the time, if it's something short in front of you or something deeper behind you, they want you to come up to it to clear the. Because if he hadn't did that, he wouldn't have got a hand on the ball because he was beat. Yes, he was beat. He was beat like a broke dick dog right there.

[Joe Hayden]

That's not. Because in Cover 2, that's not the A7 route, is not the safety's play. He's gotta be able to come there and make help you. But the corner the seven route is a corner's play. Cover two. You got to make that play. So if he tapped it, boom. Safety's right. In enough position to make the tackle. Yeah, they make the play on the ball.

[James Debo Harrison]

They called the right play for it. They just didn't count on that corner doing exactly what he did. He got that hand on that ball, Satan was able to get to it. Game over. Over. Game over.

[Joe Hayden]

That's the way you do it right there, bro.

[James Debo Harrison]

No, the Eagles, man, they just. That they didn't. They. Dude, I think they kick what. So many field goals in the red zone, they ain't. They ain't converted enough of their red zone possessions into touchdowns. It was too many field goals they had to settle for, along with too many turnovers, period. And, like, untimely turnovers, you know, four interceptions. This dude got an interception, a fumble recovery, and a. Cause like, you. You. You fumbled it, you recovered it, and you intercepted it all. And you got intercepted all in one. Yeah. Yo, the Tardis defense just played situationally better. That's what it come down to. Better in the red zone and holding them. The field goals, third downs, I think they was only 4, 13.

You know, Philly was this, you know, and then Dude.

Herbert, dude, he. Yo, he just toughed it out. Seven days after having your hand surgically repaired, this boy got metal in his hand, like. But I'm gonna tell you this. Like, they gonna need to get him some protection. He go get killed out there, man.

[Joe Hayden]

1,000%. 1,000%. You got a gladiator. They got a gladiator out there. Herbert that's fighting for his life, he know that they ain't gonna really do too much without him. But for his safety, that's why he.

[James Debo Harrison]

Playing with a surgery repair hand seven days later.

[Joe Hayden]

He knows it's fresh wounds under that hand, under that debo. It's blood.

[James Debo Harrison]

Just. Man, you can knock something loose in there. That stuff ain't stable and stuck. They're talking about something calloused up and all. I mean, you know, and the bones hardened up around those plates and screws and stuff.

[Joe Hayden]

Man, they talking about some. Yeah, it's some swelling and scarring. I say that he just had the surgery. What do you expect?

[James Debo Harrison]

Some. Some. It told me somebody had surgery in seven days, and they listen. He got open wounds still.

[Joe Hayden]

That's what I'm saying, Deebo. He's bleeding out on the field.

[James Debo Harrison]

He got open wounds, man.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, they gotta relax.

[James Debo Harrison]

They gotta stop tripping on that man. Like, that man was going hard.

[Joe Hayden]

He got Hit. Just getting hit too many times. And I love the way he plays too. Like he knows he uses his legs. He's not gonna, he's trying to help the team out, you know what I'm saying? So some of those hits, he's gonna be taking them. But just the ones in the pocket where he's just getting smacked. We just need to.

[James Debo Harrison]

He is running around, he ran into a couple sacks. Cause he just thought somebody was gonna come.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

And he, he was like, the time is over with, I gotta run because.

[Joe Hayden]

That clock in his head is going off.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, I know how much time they normally give me.

[Joe Hayden]

He like this one, two. Somebody's supposed to.

[James Debo Harrison]

Somebody comes right now.

[Joe Hayden]

Yep. And then. But with, with, with the Eagles, like you said, it's too many, too many, too many turnovers. Like that was, that was crazy, you know. And then the ricochets, the, the, A lot of the pat. The overthrown balls that could have been picks. And with that run game, I love the way they was getting Saquon going, but it's like either bang or bust, you know what I'm saying? It's a lot of them joints he's getting hit. 4 yard, 3 yard losses, 1 yard losses. The lines just getting beat like a drum sometimes. So I mean. And then a lot of the offense, my man Jalen Hurts was back there like running full blown, five wides. A lot of the times too, they just had him spreading it out like they were just calling, had him out there dealing with. So I mean, I didn't see any real consistency, you know what I'm saying? To the offense, it didn't have, really had no flow. So it just looked like, okay, Saquon gets in.

[James Debo Harrison]

I mean anytime they got a little flow, it was like, oh, turnover.

[Arvind Krishna]

Yeah.

[Joe Hayden]

Pick, you know. No, for sure. That was not, that was not a good showing by Jalen, man. Just. Cause all them picks, you can't do that and expect to win a game.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, I ain't gonna lie. I didn't think they difference was gonna play that good though.

[Joe Hayden]

They defense balled out. Yeah, they defense balled out.

[James Debo Harrison]

I didn't think they was gonna play. I thought it was gonna be a like, you know, one of those where you just get, you get knocked all over the place.

[Joe Hayden]

I mean, they, they. What's my man named? Davis 90.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes.

[Joe Hayden]

He's a trouble body, bro.

[James Debo Harrison]

Trouble.

[Joe Hayden]

He's a big body.

[James Debo Harrison]

He was, he was super trouble for that man.

[Joe Hayden]

And it's like he's stout. You're not, you know, you say People just coming over and taking over. Like if he had a gap over there, he's letting lineman come get him. No, he's not getting cross faced. He's. None of, none of that's happening. He's remaking in line of scrimmage.

[James Debo Harrison]

Oh, easily, easily slicing through there. Like he, like he thin though, sometimes. Yeah, that's crazy. That's.

[Joe Hayden]

That was good game, man.

[James Debo Harrison]

They say the Steelers just, you know, they say they got lucky, man. They say Steelers got lucky. But it's hope that, you know, the rivalry provides that Aaron provides a little bit of rivalry. I mean, it's, you know, they say it's watered down in the AFC over here with us in the North. That's what they saying. But Mike did say, hey, you go into business with Aaron Rodgers for days like this, I agree with him 100. Because that's, that's what I thought we was getting all day. He first signed him, I, I was like, yo, I ain't gonna say like 285 yards a game, but I thought we was gonna get something that was effective, you know? Yeah, I don't, My thing is this, though.

We got him for days like this. I thought we got him just for the season to play like this all year. But with that being said, I don't want to feel like we gotta wait till we get to the 12th hour to make the necessary changes that we saw was needed the previous 12 weeks and we just did nothing about it. So if that's the case and we continue to, like, you know, Dolphins continues to play like this, you know, like they did last week or somewhere around it, close to it, you know, then somebody gotta be responsible for not changing that the previous first weeks. Right?

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

And then, you know, I'll say again, the defense.

Hold up. Let me say this.

If the offense continues to play this way, okay, and the defense continues to play the way they played, giving up the numbers that they did against the Ravens, the outcome will not be the same. And I highly doubt we'll get calls, you know, that we did against them that essentially helped us win the game. Like, and to think about this, like, the crazy thing is the offense played the best game they done played all year. And without those two questionable calls, we could have still lost the game.

[Joe Hayden]

No, for sure, for sure. We could obviously do better. And this is the thing too. The division is you can only be who you play. The Ravens are leading in the division, so us being in a sorry division right now is. No, that's what I'm saying. Once we beat them. But I'm saying us being able to lead the division now, it's good because end of the day you gotta be who you play. And that's who we, that's our litness right now. To be able to get in the playoffs, we had to beat them no matter how we beat them. Ugly. Good defense, do good, whatever, whatever. We got outta that stadium with a dub. So I feel you. But moving forward, I know our defense. I've seen us play at a very, very high level. And offense too, even. Not even this game was really good. But I seen a Rod doing the scramble. He threw for four touchdowns. No picks before this season. So I seen him do that also. So I'm like a Rod having him. And he says, we're going into business because later on in the year when it's getting cold, when we're trying to make the playoffs, win, it doesn't matter how you win, but you just better make sure you do win. You know what I'm saying? So I understand what he's saying to going into these games with a Rod, having a vet quarterback, defense, I've seen them do it before too. Offense, I like it. I've seen them do this before too. It's just our team needs to have way more consistency. We don't know which team is going to come into the stadium. Just come in that stadium team as.

[James Debo Harrison]

A. I want to know what's, what's stopping that. What do you think is stopping that? Consistency. Do you think it's play? Do you think it's.

[Joe Hayden]

I think it's play. I think it's play. I think it's play. Because a lot of the times that I'm seeing things, Deebo, it's somebody getting beat, it's somebody dropping the pass. It's a lot of the stuff is self support wounds like my man echoes. I'm gonna speak on him because a lot of the time I be on him because I'm like, dude, I see the coverage. You need to be just in your assignment and then you can make the play. It's not all about you having to be perfect. It's just about you not blowing anything. Everybody needs to not be out there doing any mas. If we don't have any mas and somebody just beats you at that play, then okay, I can live with that. I can't live with us doing mask turnovers, dumb things. So I think it's the play. Dudes, y' all better go out there and no matter what the, what the play is, be in your gap, do what the job is said to do. And if the job then is bad, then we'll go and we'll figure out the call. You know what I'm saying? But a lot of the stuff I see more is player based. Some stuff that I'm like, y' all done it before, good. Stop getting hit out your gaps. You know what I'm saying? Catch the ball, don't turn it over. So with this, with a rod, I love, I just don't. I want us to. Don't try to do crazy things. Just don't.

[James Debo Harrison]

On offense, I'll say this, I think it's more of what they're called or allowed to call because Wayne never threw the ball down the field that much.

[Joe Hayden]

Okay.

[James Debo Harrison]

We never threw the ball down the field that much, period. Like, if whatever it's called, that's the route they gotta run. So obviously it was something that was.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello. Hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast smart talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna, and I asked him, how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business?

[Arvind Krishna]

My one advice to them, pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah. Wow.

[Arvind Krishna]

So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process. Because the biggest change is not technology, is getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smarttalks.

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[James Debo Harrison]

Or done that changed how the offense operated. When it comes down to the defense.

A lot of what I saw, not this game but previous games was just scheme schematics. I'm seeing people doing the same thing, different people doing the same thing. And it's not that everybody's doing something wrong. That's how you done schemed it out and it's in and it wasn't working. You know having last week, you know having our corners and safeties trying field down in the line. That was not happening. Like they tried it for a hot second with, with Baltimore and you know we changed it up and figured out how we were going to adjust to it. But I just feel like it's a combination of the two and when you are not put in the positions to be able to be effective because it's not every man with a gap. It could be somebody that has two gaps. It could be somebody where. Oh well we'll worry about that if it ever, if it ever comes to it. And I know it's things like that that's going on. So guys have to play yes 100 but at the same time they got to be put in positions that you can make those plays.

[Joe Hayden]

No a thousand percent.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah. So that's.

[Joe Hayden]

Let me see.

[James Debo Harrison]

Like I said for me it's. It's a combination of the both. But looking back on what we've seen not to including this game, dude it was times where I'm just like yo yo.

[Joe Hayden]

No schematically when you say that thing. Because the schematically part that I understand is when they Ran that play on us 29 times, the same play. And we.

[James Debo Harrison]

Here's the thing.

[Joe Hayden]

Gotta be able to play.

[James Debo Harrison]

Was actually.

Zoned out that if they fit it exactly how they're supposed to, then they would be able to make that play. It's just guys were not in their gaps. And then when it came down to it, it was like a. It was usually like a gap left open that he didn't take it to because we weren't really getting down to it anyway. But you're asking, you know, you're asking a corner to come down here and play like a linebacker. Snap. What was it, 20, 30 snaps? Come on. When they got big bodies, we need big bodies. We have to figure out how to. How to cover that some. Some other way. I don't. I just. And like I said, all that that they were doing there, I think it's just from, you know, trying to tweak the defense here and there to make it work better for the talent or for the skill set of players that you got. I think what we've been doing a lot of over the last 10 years is we've been. We've been. We've been drafting. We've been drafting players. We've been drafting players and not players for the position that we need them to fill. I need a D lineman that's going to be able to hold up in the run game because he's an interior D lineman. Like, I need, you know, an outside guy that can be able to, you know, rush the ball. We don't drop anymore. Anymore. So we used to have to have guys that, you know, had to be able to drop, curl flat, had to be able to cover same, at least, you know, be able to chase with the number two. Like, it's times where, like I said, you look and I'm. I'm locked on. I'm locked on the slot receiver, and I'm going like this, looking back at R.C. like, hey, you see I'm on two by myself, right?

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[James Debo Harrison]

You know, but that was something that. With Dick LeBeau's defense, man, it was a. It was a lot of nuances of it that, you know, you had to know everything about it. And when it got to. I think when I went to Cincinnati in 13, you know, it just turned into, like. It was a lot of players. I won't say a lot. It was like just a few players that were young and they were. They were. They were in there starting and, you know, it's hard to learn that defense and they were, they were making big mental errors, small mental errors. And when you do that in coaches bows defense, it. It strikes up the band. But yeah, that's not how I know coach. The ball operated for the most part. Like I think the only person that ever started as a Rookie in coach LeBeau's defense was Kendra Obel. And we ran all those Mac defense like the gap Mac gun. So all that stuff. So it basically just told the Mac hey, get out of here and blitz abcd, abcd. And then the linebackers or whoever else would pick up whatever his covers were was. But you know, when we got to the position I think where we just started, you know, we started drafting for the player and not the position that the player needed to fill. I think is when, you know, things started going downhill a little bit. And then we had a point where, you know, I think between 2016 to about 20. Yeah, that's when I back up.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, I got that. We was in there like five. We went three. We did real good, man.

[James Debo Harrison]

Right, right. And they were, they were back up there. And then I think in.

Was it 21 things started going down again and from there it just continued to go down. I don't know if it was just more changes because I'm not there to see it. I don't know if that's what it was. But looking at it now, like I know just from looking at the scheme of like this stuff is just. It's not correctly gapped out.

[Joe Hayden]

The one thing that you said big, big time that hits me hard. Like when I went there and it ended up being a really good defense was if you don't have vets that really kind of you gotta know football. You gotta be able to communicate and like be able to talk to linebacker, be able to talk to the safeties and know what do we see. And we see the same things, you know what I'm saying? So if there's any. They can't be gray. So we would do some extra meaning. So like you said, it wasn't just exactly black and white. Like I would have to do meanings me Minka, you know what I'm saying with Vince Williams. I love Vince because Vince, if he didn't know something, Vince gonna come ask you this gonna like this. I don't like the gray Joe. Like I'm like, neither do I Vince. So we need to figure this out. So we gonna.

[James Debo Harrison]

Right? But who, who. Why wouldn't that be told, you know, to Vince by his coach. You see what I'm saying? Like you Gotta sit down.

[Joe Hayden]

I know. I'm. I'm with you because there was just like you said, there. There were certain.

[James Debo Harrison]

It was things that was being told different by different people for the same defense. And it was like, yo, just cause again, as you said, just cause you did it this way don't mean that's what we do it. They want us to do it this way, we can't do it that way.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah, but what makes you good is if you have to have people that end up being like, there sometimes has to be some extra. Like, if everybody's not seeing things the same way, you have to get onto the same accord because end of the day you're on the field. You know what I'm saying? So I would hope that the coaches and everybody was setting this stuff up right. I just know when I was there, we would have to have a little bit of extra meetings just so there's no gray making sure linebackers and corners see things the same way. Is this getting passed off? Is this high, low, you know what I'm saying? Are you taking this or not? You know what I'm saying? So the extra stuff to it, because when. When you know, like you Debo, when.

[James Debo Harrison]

You know we ain't do. When Coastal Bo was there, we didn't have it. We knew what it was. Everybody coached the same thing. This is exactly what it was, you know. And.

Now you think, look at this. So in 13, I think I ended up going to Cincinnati. In 12, we were number one defense. In 13, I think they ended up dropping to 13 ranked. And then in eight, and then in.

14, it was 18. And then Coach LeBeau wasn't renewed and it was said that his defense was old. It was getting. No, that's not what happened happened. It was younger players being put in positions to play that weren't necessarily ready to play. And with that, you know, happening, you lose the knowledge of the position you're playing because now this player hasn't been there long enough to know everything that's going on. But they're forced into playing now because they may be a higher draft choice or something like that. And you've seen that happen in 13, seen it happen in 14. And then when I came back in 14, I'm like, okay, it's sort of like the same defense. It was pretty much the same. And then when 15 rolled, it just totally changed. It was supposed to be the same defense, but they were changing parts of the defense to fit what it is that they wanted to do. And you can't do that. When you do that, you mess up the whole. Right. Because each defense has a weakness, just as each offense does, and they have checks and adjustments to it. So for us, when you do that, you. You added another hole to the defense, if not two or three. And now you have guys out of position. You have guys, you know, or not even out of position. It's just that the change puts them out of position and they can't get to something else that would have been covered, you know, otherwise coachable would tell us, okay, we know what this weakness is. I know what this weakness is. If this happens, hey, we just got to rally to the ball. They may get, you know, 8, 10 yards. We gotta make the tackle. And I think us trying to change that.

[Joe Hayden]

Just. You're trying to cover up. You can't cover up that play.

[James Debo Harrison]

You got.

[Joe Hayden]

You got everything else covered. But if they get this one, we might gotta just rally catch and tackle, fight another down. But trying to cover up everything is going to make a whole nother problem. I get you 1000%.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah. Yeah. So. But let's go on over here to Cleveland. Cleveland say, hey, should dope should. Don't go be number one for the rest of the season. Joe, how you feel about this? What took him so long, Joe?

[Joe Hayden]

You tell me. I'm just as confused as, hey, man, listen.

[James Debo Harrison]

They had to have undeniable proof numbers.

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

Where they could not. They could no longer say, hey, it's week to week. Well, this man just went out here and did something y' all ain't had done since 1950. If you go in there and say it's week to week, we know you ain't for him.

[Joe Hayden]

No. And like it's just now. I mean, the good thing is Dylan Gabriel, he got his starts out there. He had his chance to see if he could be the guy. He ended up going down with a concussion. Now my man Shador gets the same opportunities. It's only his third start. And I'm not. Not. This is from no practice with the firsts, none of that stuff. He's just showing that he has the ability to. If he gets reps and continues to play, he's going this way, he's getting better. And I'm not saying none of these games have been perfect. He's still got things he can do a whole lot better. And I know that. And I know he knows that pocket presence, being able to make a little bit quicker decisions, being able to spin out that slow spin, it just gets me every time. But eyes downfield Being able to make those passes. I love it. So I mean, the good thing it made. It's going to be a tough schedule coming ahead. I just want to the team to be there for him because they're mathematically eliminated right now. Deebo, there's nothing that the Browns can't go to the playoffs. I don't want people to start cashing it in on him. He needs them and needs everybody to be trying to go at the best of their abilities. Right now you can't. The season's kind of over. But dude, you better go play for the name on your back and play for. You know what I'm saying? Just for the next team. You may not be with the Browns or whatever. This is when you start having. These are the talks Tebow that we used to have to have. When you're mathematically eliminated, people get to worrying about the off season, what they about to do next year. Like, no, no, no, no, no. For Shador right now he's going to have a tough stretch of these last five games. So he's going to need that for real. Had a team with him. Have everybody really locked in fighting for him and for their own job. Cause you're pros and this is what you do. Cause I say that being in locker rooms that have been mathematically eliminated, you see people checking out. That's not cool. And I've never been that person. You are the honest guy. Don't lie. You are what you put on tape. And I never want to be that person. Like, try to solve. No, what you see is what you get. You want to do what you can do every single time. You put your best foot out there. But shit gets weird when you're in locker rooms that are losing and mathematically eliminated and people are looking for their jobs, coaches trying to protect their jobs. And really like shit gets weird in those locker rooms. So I just want them to stay motivated, still fight for Shador because it's time. Like I think he can be the quarterback, the leading quarterback for this franchise. I don't know if the coach is going to be there with him. I think they need somebody that's going to support Shador, be full all in, want that swag, want to help him be successful. So that's just a whole nother thing for next year. But just continuing with this season. I need them to go out there and fight for him. Because once you get Math Mag eliminated, people start acting funny and I need them to block for him, protect them. Everybody try to get deals, man. You may not be with the Browns, but just fight for that next team. So that's what I got to say.

[James Debo Harrison]

Just.

[Joe Hayden]

Just trying to give my Browns some. Some hope, some love. Cause Shador is going to need it, you know what I'm saying, for these next couple of games coming up.

[James Debo Harrison]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't know the feeling of it because I've never been in that situation where you're just playing for nothing.

[Joe Hayden]

You know, Debo, you supposed to be my friend. I mean, can you.

[James Debo Harrison]

Oh, I'm just saying.

[Joe Hayden]

I know you.

[James Debo Harrison]

I would agree with you.

[Joe Hayden]

You know what, Debo?

[James Debo Harrison]

It's okay. Joe.

[Joe Hayden]

Joe, you know what? That's why I know I'm a real. I'm a real.

[James Debo Harrison]

I am o. I'm. I'm okay, Joe.

[Joe Hayden]

Okay. I'm gonna egg your house.

[James Debo Harrison]

You go egg my. Wow. Since you ain't want nobody egging your house, then you go egg my house.

[Joe Hayden]

I'm joking, Depot. I'm joking. You made me. You made me feel some type of way.

[James Debo Harrison]

You just. Let's get. Let's get to the super chat, man. Covenant Life is back. Covenant Life, 77397. Donated $50. She said today I'm watching from St. Louis, from St. Lucia. Oh, she said today she watching from St. Lucia. Oh, send me some of that over here, man. That needs a great DB Camp. Please start and prepare yourselves for the Steel Curtain camp for teenagers. Thank you. What's the steel.

[Joe Hayden]

Is she saying that we need to throw a camp?

[James Debo Harrison]

Please start and prepare yourself for a. For the Steel Curtain camp for teenagers. Thank you. Hope to see you guys for the Steelers Baltimore game in January. Are you ready for Miami? Of course we are ready for Miami.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes, yes, yes.

[James Debo Harrison]

We are ready for Miami. So are we to start a camp or she wants to start a camp?

[Joe Hayden]

It's either she wants us to start a camp, Debo, or she's inviting us to the Steel Curtain camp. One of the two.

[James Debo Harrison]

We're gonna have to find out later.

[Joe Hayden]

You know what? Covenant gonna let us know. She gonna.

[James Debo Harrison]

Covenant. Yes. Yes. Covenant gonna let us know. We still praying for you now?

[Joe Hayden]

Definitely.

[James Debo Harrison]

Always. So, Danny Dubois, 1712. He donated 14 bucks. He said, debo and Joe, you both have played for multiple teams. Do you still care about the other teams or are you both just black and gold? You know, we know. We know Joe's answers. Go ahead, Joe.

[Joe Hayden]

Does he watch the show?

[James Debo Harrison]

He must not.

[Joe Hayden]

You know, I am split loyalties. I keep on saying it. I got the Steelers and I got the Browns. I Love both. Now, Deebo.

What about you, Deebot?

[James Debo Harrison]

Me? Huh?

[Joe Hayden]

Yeah.

[James Debo Harrison]

I'm black and gold all day.

[Joe Hayden]

You're black and gold all day.

[James Debo Harrison]

You know I'm black and gold all day.

[Joe Hayden]

So you.

[James Debo Harrison]

I ain't got. I ain't got. I ain't got no.

[Joe Hayden]

You got no loyalty to them.

[James Debo Harrison]

I ain't got. Nathan non data zero. I ain't got. You know what I'm saying? I appreciate what they did for me. You said, okay, I appreciate all that. Now, look here, if we can't get it, do I want one of them to get it? Yeah, I feel good about you know what I'm saying? Yeah, you got it. Like, if it's me, if it's the steel, the black and gold against Cincinnati.

[Joe Hayden]

Black and gold or New England?

[James Debo Harrison]

I gotta go black and gold. Now, if they ain't in it.

Then I'm gonna go with the other one. But if we going.

[Joe Hayden]

We going. You going black and gold, okay? No respect.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, I got. I got. I got to go black and gold. Look here, man. Look. Danny Du Bois came back. He said, hey, Joe, you gotta pick one. He donated 14 for this. You gotta pick one, Joe. He said.

[Joe Hayden]

How you gonna make me pick something? How you gonna make me pick something? I like both. Mr. Du Bois.

[James Debo Harrison]

Hold on, Joe, what's up? Tell him I got your hat for you.

[Joe Hayden]

So, Jibo, show him my hat.

I just hope.

[James Debo Harrison]

There it is.

[Joe Hayden]

Teams have fun.

[James Debo Harrison]

That. That. That's Joe right there. And. And Covenant Life said she want us to start the camp. She donated 20. She said she want us to start the camp. We need to start the camp. I'm. I'm more of a linebacker, but I'll help him out. If you want to start it, though.

[Joe Hayden]

You know, I'm good with the quick feet. I'm. I'm. You know, let me. We're gonna set something this off season. We'll figure something out, Debo.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yeah, we gonna figure it out for sure.

[Joe Hayden]

Cause I'm not against that. I love. I love doing a little. I love the camps. I did a couple of them things.

[James Debo Harrison]

Like you had you a good time over there in St. Lucia. Now, look here, guys, we want to thank you for joining us on this episode of Debo and Joe. Hey. Please like and subscribe. We gonna be back here on Friday.

After Thursday night.

[Joe Hayden]

Yes, sir.

[James Debo Harrison]

We talking some more football. And you know what?

I got two.

We got two sets of two tickets.

[Joe Hayden]

Come on, Debo.

[James Debo Harrison]

Monday Night Football. The Steelers against the Miami Dolphins. And you know what? But we don't like it Dolphins? No, we train them to do what we want. Like SeaWorld. And we gonna be training some dolphins on Sunday. Oh, sorry. On Monday night. We're gonna be playing dolphins on Monday night. They getting them ready for us. We're gonna have them jumping through hoops. We're gonna have them doing things for us. Like doing it all that.

Joe, it's gonna be cold as ice, too.

[Joe Hayden]

You ain't lying.

[James Debo Harrison]

Devo.

[Joe Hayden]

You ain't lying. We gonna whoop the dolphins on Monday and we're gonna talk about it on Tuesday.

[James Debo Harrison]

Yes, sir.

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[James Debo Harrison]

All.

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[James Debo Harrison]

Mmm.

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[James Debo Harrison]

You know what a girl's best friend is not diamonds. Her lawyers.

[Joe Hayden]

From executive producer Ryan Murphy comes a fiery new legal drama.

[James Debo Harrison]

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[Joe Hayden]

You can't afford to miss.

[James Debo Harrison]

Make it rake. Showtime, ladies. Stand up straight and breeze into that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Joe Hayden]

Hulu Original Series All's Fair now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers.

[James Debo Harrison]

Terms apply.

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