Nightcap - Hour 1: Unc, Ocho, Iso, & Jermaine O’neal react to Thunder evening the series 1-1!

Summary

Podcast Title: Club Shay Shay
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts and Shay Shay Media
Episode: Nightcap - Hour 1: Unc, Ocho, Iso, & Jermaine O’Neal React to Thunder Evening the Series 1-1!
Release Date: June 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Club Shay Shay, NFL legend Shannon Sharpe, alongside co-hosts Uncle (Unc), Chad "Ocho" Ochocinco Johnson, and former NBA player Jermaine O’Neal, delve into the heated NBA Finals matchup between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers. The series has just been leveled at 1-1 following a thrilling victory by the Thunder over the Pacers. The panel provides comprehensive analysis, highlights standout performances, critiques strategies, and anticipates the upcoming games with insightful commentary.

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Series Overview and Game Recap ([02:34] - [05:17])

Tom Brokaw opens the discussion by summarizing the outcome of the latest game:

"As you watch the OKC Thunder evening the series up 1-1 with a 123-107 victory over the Indiana Pacers, they got back on the winning track."

Chad Ochocinco Johnson praises the Thunder's relentlessness:

"I thought OKC was relentless in their approach... they played with a sense of desperation and never took their foot off the gas."

Lester Holt emphasizes the Thunder's defensive prowess:

"Defensively, they make every possession tough. They kept the Pacers out of transition offense and controlled the game's tempo."

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Key Player Performances ([04:08] - [07:23])

Chad Ochocinco Johnson highlights impressive defensive efforts:

"They played great defensively, keeping guys out of the paint and making it tough for the Pacers to find rhythm."

Joe Johnson commends Tyrese Halliburton's performance under pressure:

"OKC's pressure defensively relieved Halliburton, limiting his assists to five and forcing him out of his offensive set."

Chad Ochocinco Johnson and Lester Holt discuss Halliburton's struggles and the need for his aggression:

"He had six assists and five turnovers, showing the Pacers couldn't get into their offensive rhythm. Halliburton needs to be more aggressive from the start."

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Strategic Analysis ([07:23] - [15:00])

Lester Holt critiques Halliburton's approach:

"He hesitates too long, waiting until the fourth quarter to assert himself, which is not sustainable against a strong Thunder team."

Chad Ochocinco Johnson suggests defensive adjustments:

"Trapping Halliburton could force him to make plays under pressure, disrupting his rhythm and opening opportunities for other Pacers."

Tom Brokaw underscores the importance of controlling rebounds and second-chance points:

"In game one, Pacers had 52 rebounds, but they only secured 35 in this game, significantly reducing their second-chance opportunities."

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Thunder's Tactical Execution ([15:00] - [25:00])

Chad Ochocinco Johnson and Lester Holt discuss the Thunder's defensive rotations and support from role players:

"Caruso and Wiggins contributed significantly with 20 and 18 points each, supported by solid defensive plays from the bench."

Lester Holt notes the Thunder's ability to maintain momentum:

"They hit crucial shots and responded effectively to any runs by the Pacers, demonstrating resilience and strategic depth."

Tom Brokaw praises the Thunder's all-around team effort:

"With multiple players scoring in double figures and strong defensive rotations, OKC showcased why they were the top regular-season team."

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Pacers' Challenges and Future Outlook ([25:00] - [38:00])

Chad Ochocinco Johnson expresses confidence in the Pacers' coaching and depth:

"Miles Turner's performance with 14 points and strong defense highlights the Pacers' balanced approach. However, they rely heavily on Halliburton's leadership."

Joe Johnson emphasizes the need for Halliburton to take more control:

"Halliburton needs to be more aggressive early on and involve his teammates more consistently to keep the team competitive."

Lester Holt discusses the importance of role players:

"The Pacers have a strong supporting cast, but without Halliburton's consistent leadership, it's challenging to overcome a team as formidable as OKC."

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Defensive Strategies and Player Matchups ([38:00] - [50:00])

Chad Ochocinco Johnson and Tom Brokaw analyze defensive matchups against key Thunder players:

"Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA) has been exceptional, averaging 37 points, and requires constant defensive attention. Caruso and Wiggins' shooting efficiencies further complicate the Pacers' defense."

Lester Holt underscores the importance of defensive adjustments:

"Rick Carlisle's coaching may come into play with subtle adjustments that could tip the balance in the Pacers' favor in the upcoming games."

Chad Ochocinco Johnson suggests targeting Thunder's perimeter shooters:

"By trapping Halliburton and forcing other players to take contested shots, the Pacers can disrupt OKC's offensive flow."

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Upcoming Games and Prediction ([50:00] - [67:00])

Tom Brokaw and Chad Ochocinco Johnson discuss the potential dynamics of game three at Indiana:

"Playing at home with the supportive crowd, the Pacers need to increase their pace and continue aggressive defense to regain the series lead."

Lester Holt highlights Rick Carlisle's experience and potential impact:

"As a seasoned coach, Carlisle's ability to make in-game adjustments could be the key to swinging the series in favor of the Pacers."

Chad Ochocinco Johnson remains optimistic about the Pacers' chances:

"Despite OKC's strength, the Pacers have shown resilience and depth throughout the postseason, giving them a solid chance to take control of the series."

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Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts ([67:00] - End)

Tom Brokaw wraps up the episode by emphasizing the defensive strengths of the Thunder:

"With players like Darrell Arthur and Jalen Williams, OKC has a robust defensive lineup that makes them a formidable opponent in the Finals."

Chad Ochocinco Johnson and Joe Johnson reiterate the importance of Halliburton's role and the need for the Pacers to adapt their strategies:

"Halliburton must continue to assert himself and involve his teammates more to counter OKC's aggressive defense."

Lester Holt concludes with a nod to the strategic depth of both teams:

"This series will ultimately come down to coaching strategies and key performances from both teams' stars and role players."

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Notable Quotes

• Chad Ochocinco Johnson ([04:08]):

  "I thought OKC was relentless in their approach... they played with a sense of desperation and never took their foot off the gas."

• Lester Holt ([09:04]):

  "He needs to be more aggressive from the start and involve his teammates more consistently."

• Chad Ochocinco Johnson ([27:23]):

  "OKC is a very good road team. They won the most games in the regular season for a reason."

• Joe Johnson ([32:57]):

  "Halliburton got too many tools in the toolbox. He always finds a way to counter your game plan."

• Tom Brokaw ([37:53]):

  "Rick Carlisle is a basketball savant. He could be the difference maker in this series."

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Conclusion

This episode of Club Shay Shay offers a deep dive into the NBA Finals clash between the Thunder and the Pacers, providing listeners with expert analysis on player performances, strategic maneuvers, and the pivotal factors that could determine the series outcome. Shannon Sharpe and his co-hosts deliver engaging commentary, backed by insightful quotes and detailed breakdowns, making it a must-listen for basketball enthusiasts and fans following the intense Finals matchup.

Transcript

[Tom Brokaw]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Lester Holt]

NBC Nightly News legacy isn't handed down or NBC News.

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I'm Tom Brokaw.

[Michael Kassin]

We hope to see you back here.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I'm Lester Holt.

[Lester Holt]

It's carried forward.

[Tom Brokaw]

Tom Yamas is there for us. Firefighters are still working around the clock.

[Lester Holt]

As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with.

[Tom Brokaw]

Breaking news right now.

[Lester Holt]

We look for a constant and from one era to the next. Trust is the anchor for NBC Nightly News.

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm Tom Yamas.

[Lester Holt]

A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom yamas evenings on NBC.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Tom Brokaw]

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[Lester Holt]

We help you save valid through 615 while supplies last selection varies by location.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm Michael Casson, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode I'm joined by Angeli Su, CEO of Tubi. We dive into the competitive world of streaming.

[Anjali Sud]

What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lester Holt]

The Volum.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hello ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Nightcap. As you watch the OKC Thunder even the series up 11 with a 123107 victory over the Indiana Pacers, they got back on the winning track. Now they're going to go back, go to Indiana on Tuesday and see if they can snatch home Court back. Thank you for joining us. Y' all know me. I am your favorite unc. It's Wednes Wednesday. My bad Wednesday.

[Lester Holt]

Wednesday.

[Tom Brokaw]

I am your favorite unc. Shannon Sharpe, my partner and co host, member of the Nightcap team, Liberty City's own bingo Ring of Fame honoree, Pro Bowler All Pro. Chad Ochocinko Johnson, our third member of the Big Three, joined us during the basketball season. Now, he's doing an excellent job, thinking about bringing this man on for football. He knows so much about football. He know all things.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

All right now. All right, don't threaten him. No good time now.

[Tom Brokaw]

Arkansas native, University of Arkansas. Love ISO. Joe. Joe Johnson. And joining us to break down tonight's game, he's a former member of the Indiana Pacers. He's a seven, he's a six time all star, three time all NBA selection from Eau Claire High School out of Columbia, South Carolina. Here he is, Jermaine o' Neal. Let's get right into it. Okc. They won the most games in the regular season, really, with the exception of the Nuggets. They kind of breezed through the playoffs. We knew they were going to bounce back and they did this in convincing fashion. Joe, I'm gonna start with you, then I'm gonna kick it to you. Jermaine, what did you like about what you saw from OKC tonight?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I thought OKC was, you know, relentless in their approach, knowing that, you know, there's no way they can go back to, they can go to Indiana. Down 02. You know, I thought they came out played with a sense of desperation and they kind of continued, you know, pretty, pretty much throughout the entire game. And for me, you know, I think when you watch this final, especially knowing what OKC have done, you know, pretty much throughout the whole season, which has been the best team, I thought they put their stamp on the game today and they never took their foot off the gas. I thought they were great.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yep, they got jailed well for me.

[Lester Holt]

I thought they did a lot of the same things they did in the first game. I think defensively we see what they are. They make every possession tough. You got to really earn it. You know, they kept, for the most part, they kept the Pacers out of that transition offense. And, you know, when you look at game one versus Tonight, you know, every time the Pacers try to make a run, they responded by getting stops, they responded by getting the score. So I thought that was the difference because in game one, it was only the Pacers only led for one possession.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right.

[Lester Holt]

And that was the end of the game.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right.

[Lester Holt]

And so they did a really good job defensively of controlling tempo and controlling the outcome of the game.

[Tom Brokaw]

Ocho.

[Joe Johnson]

Yeah, I mean, I'm piggybacking off what Jail said. Obviously the Thunder's pressure defensively is relieved. They had 10 steals. They held Halliburton's. Hell, he only had five assists. The Pacers really couldn't find any type of rhythm and they couldn't get into any early offense. The Thunder played with a sense of desperation and understanding that we can't go down. 02 and oh, shit, just about. Just about what happened, baby?

[Tom Brokaw]

Indiana thought they could play the same way they played the first game in this ball game. They were sloppy the first three quarters of the ball game. If you look at the turnovers, Halliburton has six assists. He had five turnovers. So you know it's going to be a hard. Because Halliburton is not a turnover guy. As many assists, Jo, and Joe, as you know, Ocho, you know he's a guy that's had 15 assists and no turnovers. He's had 19 assists and no turnovers. 20 assists and one turnover. So when you see him have six assists and five turnovers, that lets you know they're struggling to get into their offensive set. They did a great job. Ok. See this game, they got on the glass. Remember we talked about, Joe, how many second chance points they allowed Indiana to get? Not this game. They beat him on. They beat them on the offensive end. They beat him in the rebounding stats. Shay was a lot more efficient. Level to 21. The other game he had 38, but he took him 30 shots. Tonight he had 34 on 21 shots. Chet Holmgren decided to come to the party. He was invited to game one. He decided not to show up till late. And it wasn't enough. Pacers. Look, I hope the Pacers don't think, oh, we got what we good going home. Because OKC is a very good road team. They are a very good road team. There's a reason why they won the most games. There's a reason why they have the mvp. They have another player named Jalen Williams, who's all the NBA defensive player and all NBA. So guys, I don't know. Look. And you can see the frustration on Coach Carlisle's face.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey, Jo. He used like three tire bouts in a matter of five minutes. Cause he felt the game starting to slip away from him. He's like, no, I gotta quell some of this momentum. And he wasn't Able to do it. Give the Thunder credit tonight because I thought they played it really well. And it's not so much what the Pacers didn't do, is what OKC did do. OKC forced them to play this style of a ball game.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I thought okc, you know, played great in the first game as far as defensively, but tonight, you know, they, they, they pretty much had control defensively, keeping guys out the paint, making it tough for them. And I'm curious to. To hear what Jo got to say, man, about Halliburton, especially, you know, early in the game. J. O for me, you know, when I watched and I knew in the fourth quarter, he was going to try to assert himself a little bit and try to, you know, get him back in the game, but I think he's so passive, you know, to start the game, man, that it kind of, it, it gets him out of rhy. It takes away from, you know, what he does. I know he's a great passer, a great facilitator, but this is the biggest stage, I think, you know, he has to come out and give him something, you know, because for me, it's like, oh, when he catch the ball, he come up the pick and roll. He's not even looking at the basket. He's not even. He's looking to pass.

[Tom Brokaw]

He looking where he look at the pass.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

He's looking where his next pass is going to be versus putting pressure on the rim and trying to make a play. And I just think, you know, obviously I think he'll play a lot better when they go home, but for me, I'm curious to hear what J got to say about that.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. And you hit me right on the head. I think the one thing with Tyrese Halliburton is, you know, when you look at the last game, right, he got bailed out because he hit the shot, right. He only had. He finished with 14, right.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

He look again tonight, again, you know, he inserted himself late in the four, but they were down 20. You look at the rest of their roster, they had seven double figure scores today, right? The difference between, you know, the Pacers really, really, you know, stand in the game and really have an opportunity to win is him.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right? Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

Go back to the Knicks series when he had the triple double. I actually talked to him right before, you know, tip off, and he said he was about to get after it. You saw it in his eyes from day one when he could penetrate, touch the paint. He create opportunities. He opens up his opportunities, and he's aggressive. I do not enjoy, you know, this very well. You're playing a dangerous game when you're trying to wait until the 4th to help your team.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

You're not going to continue to make those shots.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right.

[Lester Holt]

And then you got to at least give your team a chance to have an opportunity to make to be in the game, you know, come fourth quarter. And, you know, he didn't do a very good job of that today. And obviously, you know, OKC had, you know, answers with Aaron Wiggins, had huge games and 18 and Caruso had 20. Right? Yeah. You know, the stars got to be stars. We all know that in every league. And if you can't be a star, then your team is, you know, is vulnerable to lose a game. And tonight they did.

[Joe Johnson]

Hey, it's kind of funny, though, honestly, when you think about Haliburton in the first game. His approach to the game, the first game was the same way. He was very passive. Allowing the rest of his team to get their shots in allowed them to be in rhythm. And that kept him in the game until those final moments. And then he decided, you know what? All right, I'm going to take over and take this last shot. Just in today's game, he tried that same approach, but it didn't work because they were down too.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Damn.

[Lester Holt]

And I will say this ojo one thing about. And I think people, it's this crazy thing where he's learning to be a star, right? You know, people say superstar. Superstars are already.

[Tom Brokaw]

They.

[Lester Holt]

They already know how to carry a team. I think he's. He's a star that's learning to try to be a superstar as pass first point guard, right? So, you know, that team needs him to be high motor from start to finish. If he can't do that, then I don't think they can beat the OKC Thunder if he's not aggressive, right?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, hey, hey, Unk. And to kind of piggyback what Unk say, I think you got to give OKC credit because they play great defense. See they able to keep Hallenberg out of the paint. Now, a lot of times when he get in the paint, he's not necessarily scoring. He's kicking it out, firing out for threes. And they wasn't getting them easy. They wasn't getting them easy threes tonight. You know, I know they made some, but for the most part, I thought OKC done a great job in keeping guys in front, making it tough on them, and not giving them the easy penetration to where they got the lobs or the layups or, you know, just wide open threes. So you got to give them. OKC. OKC some credit.

[Lester Holt]

100%.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. When you drive. When you drive the lane against the Thunder, you better keep your eye on your luggage, man. Cause they going in your pocket. They going in your pockets. J H. I mean, you see Halliburton, he like, he, oh, I got me a layup. And Shane said, no, you don't.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

And you think you got a layup and Lou Dorn said, no, you don't, Caruso. They dig it in your pockets.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

And so you basically, hey, if you got something in your back pocket, you got this ball behind you. Oh, they get. They digging it out. You better be like a New York on the subway. You better keep everything in your front pocket.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, but.

[Tom Brokaw]

Cause if you don't, it's gonna rob your ass blind.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, look, it shouldn't surprise us, though. They've been what, the best defensive team? Pretty much. So when I see them playing great defense like this, it doesn't surprise me. This is kind of actually what I expect.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

And the thing. And the thing, I thought the thing, what they did tonight is that they hit those shots. You remember they got out to the. They had a 14 point lead in the fourth quarter, but they kept their foot on the gas. They didn't let up even when Indiana went on that 100 run. Yeah. It's like, guess what? They follow him back. They come right back and go on a 9, 0 run to themselves and build a lead right back to where it was.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

So I just. And I agree with you guys. I think Tyrese Halliburton is going to have to be aggressive and guys are going to have to hit open shots. I thought Pascal was a little tentative tonight. 3 of 11. That's not a whole lot of shots. I mean, look at all the guys that had as many shots as he had. Niece Smith had more shots. Obviously Halliburton had more shots. My alternative had more shots. They didn't shoot the three ball well, but they allowed. Who's it, okc. To shoot 49% from the floor. They shot 39% from the three. You let them shoot 33 free throws. Okc. They're a good free throw shooting team, Jay. And guys, it's going to be hard to beat them. When you let them shoot that many free throws, you let them shoot that percentage from the field and from the three point line. Unless you play excellent ball, you get Halliburton doing what he normally does. He Has a heroic Pascal doing what he normally does. And niece Smith and Nemhard, you're not beating. You Let OKC shoot 49% from the floor. Shoot 33, three free throws. It's gonna be hard for you to beat them because they play really, really good defense and they normally don't let you shoot in the high 40s. So they got the work cut out for them. I hope they don't think. Like I said, OKC was one of the better road teams. Yeah, we know where they are at home because of that crowd. But you don't win 68 games by just by winning 41 at home.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right. Right.

[Lester Holt]

And I think, I'm gonna be honest. I think, you know, I gotta, I still gotta give up, you know, give. The Pacers, they keep finding a way, you know, and this is, to me, it goes back to their coaching. Right. They. Coaching has them, they always have them prepared. You know, shout out to Miles Turner, OB toppings T. Bryant. Nobody thought that it would hit, you know, I think they eight or nine threes last game. Big threes, right?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Lester Holt]

And Miles, Miles Turner Today, he had 14 points. And I think they're doing their job from a perspective. They just need their, you know, they need Halliburton to really take control of it, set the tempo, get into their pace. They're dangerous when they're flying up and down that court. I thought they played a little bit slower than they would like. And honestly, OKC has a lot to do with that. With them picking up fool and got them, you know, you know, got two all defensive, you know, guys on, you know, on the roster.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yep.

[Lester Holt]

You know, if the patients can get home and, and get into that pace. Aliburton, become the machine and make them. I think they have a shot on really, you know, taking game three.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey, look, remember last time, Joe, we talked about. Not before. Let you go, Joe. Last time we talked about, remember the Pacers jail? They had three guys with double digit rebounds and they had another guy that had nine.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

So they had 52 rebounds in the first game.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

They had 35.

[Tom Brokaw]

So that's minus 17 that all of a sudden now. And they were really good on the glass giving, getting second chance opportunities. They're going to have to do a better job of that. They're going to have to do a better job of getting on the glass, getting second chance opportunities because you know they're going to. They did a better. And they did a poor job of taking care of basketball this game too. They did a much better job in game one, I mean, well, you think about it, they had 25 turnovers and they win. Rick Carlisle, like guys, we only had 15 turnovers, but you had those turnovers when you were down and you were trying to make your run. And now all of a sudden they steal a couple of the possessions where you could have probably. It was 14. You might have. Could have cut it to 8 or who knows, even lower than that. But now all of a sudden the 14 goes back to 20 when you could have cut it to under double figures. Go ahead, Joe.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, then you look. You look at. I think everything reverts back to Hallenberg. Because look, look at it. Look at his free throw attempts. He didn't. He didn't. He didn't get to the line today. You know, that's. And that's, you know, part of being aggressive, man, this is the biggest stage. They need him to get in that paint and make plays, whether it's creating for himself, but he definitely has to create for others. And I. The better he plays, we've seen it throughout this postseason. The more dangerous they are as a team, the better them other dudes around him play when he's aggressive and asserts himself. So I look for them to be a lot better in Indiana. And obviously OKC is a great team on the road. I still think when you look at Indiana, still has the edge right now. They won one and okc, they just got to take care of home court.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yep. But you know, OKC is coming in. Cause the same thing happened with Denver. Denver stole game one. They ended up blowing them out in game two. And then guess what? OKC came right in in game three, in game three and snuck it from them. Yeah, you don't want. You don't want to. You don't want to see that. You want to do everything you possibly can and stop spotting these teams. Look, it's good. J, O A. We got that a bit. Oh, man, we could track somebody down. Man, you don't want to. Hey, you don't want to spend. You don't want to spend 38, 40 minutes trying to play from behind. Because now all of a sudden, do I still. Do I have enough to get over that hump? And tonight OKC understood the assignment. They knew they couldn't go down 02 and then got on the road and try to win. And now we've got to beat them four out of the next five games. That's asking an awful lot for a team that they go get two on the road. They're going to be Playing with a lot of confidence, and that's what Indiana normally does. We saw what they did against Cleveland. They went over there and got those two at home on the road. They're like, oh, yeah, we good now. We good.

[Lester Holt]

You. Hey, Joe. The thing about this, man, and this is the thing, I think that made Indiana a really good team. This is not me being a homer, but this is just facts, right? When you look at their run in the playoffs, they have somebody different or a couple people different every game. That's that big, right? That is a hard thing to defend, man. They got players across the board that are ready to help their team win. And I think that's really their calling card. Obviously you have to have a head of a snake. And we talk about, you know, the ups and downs of Tyrese Halliburton, but man, you know, we gotta, we gotta commend other boys coming off that bench being ready and, and you know, and make big shots. Oh, yeah.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Cause look, for me, I love TJ McConnell and what he brings. I love Thomas Bryant coming off, uh, I know Obie Toppin didn't really give him what he gave him in game one, but, you know, Matherin has been aggressive playing well. So they got a plethora of guys who can really step up and help him win a game. Yeah, you kind of need one or two of those guys to explode, and tonight they just didn't have it. I mean, Pascal played, he played decent. But 3, 4, 11, you know, that's going to be tough. They need, you know, they need they big guns to be. To be great in order for them to win on this stage. Cause it's tough.

[Joe Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, listen, they're going to win the next game. They're going to win the next game. Wednesday.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Gonna put something on it, huh? Huh? What'd you say?

[Joe Johnson]

Who said that? That was you, Joe.

[Lester Holt]

Well, you already owe me.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Okay, keep going. My bad.

[Joe Johnson]

But anyway. No, but listen. I know I had a burden after, after watching. Once they go back watch film. You understand? Okay, you know what? I gotta assert myself a little bit more understanding that I'm gonna be aggressive. Then I didn't be passed allow my teammates to get into a game. If I see the game slipping away at any point, you know, you can. You supposed to be the head coach. You supposed to the point, supposed to understand, like see the flow of the game and how the game is going and knowing when to assert yourself and when not to. It's okay to be passive, but I think he really wants to get his other Players involved, because if they're hitting their shots and then he decides to insert himself and pick and choose when to be aggressive, I think that's what gives him the best chance. And the fact that they're playing at home, despite what the Thunder did and how many wins they had and being off with a good team playing on the road, I think they're going to be all right. And they probably gonna win the series still, regardless of what we saw tonight.

[Lester Holt]

Well, I.

[Tom Brokaw]

You gotta give OKC credit because you look at Caruso, you look at Wiggins, they got 38 points from those guys.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

Caruso couldn't miss a corner. Three. Yeah. Wiggins got a loose ball and drained it and then came right back down. He got it again and boom, drained it again. So you get 38. You get 38 points from two guys off the bench.

[Anjali Sud]

Whoo.

[Tom Brokaw]

You look at Matthew. Matthew was 4 or 7. TJ McConnell was 5 or 7. They was 2 or 3 from the three point line. They gave it 25. But you get two guys that gave you 38. Quality 38. And both of those guys played outstanding defense as well. Go ahead, Jaylah.

[Lester Holt]

So I guess the question that we should look at this is this is a strange finals, right. Typically, you know, at this point you'll see the star of stars, right? SGA has been. Been SGA for, you know, for the most part. He's obviously more efficient this game, but this series going to come down to me seems like the other guy.

[Tom Brokaw]

Ro.

[Lester Holt]

Yep.

[Tom Brokaw]

The role player.

[Lester Holt]

Role players. Because, I mean, you haven't, you know, you lose by 20. And it's strange. The Pacers lose by, I think, almost 20 and they got seven double figure scores.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, right.

[Lester Holt]

And then, you know, then you have the Aaron Wiggins, the Carusos. I thought Jalen Williams. Williams was pretty good tonight. He was a lot better. He had 19. He's obviously, he's the starter, but it just like, where's the. Like what's the winning tool to this? Because it's like every game like, you know, somebody else is stepping up big and it's not like the traditional superstars taking over games. It's gonna be interesting to see these next. These next, you know, three or four, you know, these next three games.

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Unknown]

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[Michael Kassin]

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[Michael Kassin]

Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment and sports collide and hear how leaders like Angeli are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tom Brokaw]

Normally there. But Pacers are a committee team.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

And that's what makes them so difficult because they don't have that superstar that you know that can go, that can consistently go get you 30. You pencil them in. Look at SGA. SGA gonna get 30 a game. Yeah, you already know that. You play a Giannis, he gonna get you 30. You play one of these teams that have one of these superstar players, they're going to get you that number. What the Pacers do is that they nickel and D you. They're going to have five, six, seven guys in double figures. They might have one guy with 25, Jo and Joe and then they gonna have a bunch of teams. 17, 18, 15, 14, 13. That's where they hurt you at. And guys normally make timely shots. If you go back and look at the first game that they stole, they stole from the Knick niece. Smith came off the bench and hit six threes in five minutes.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

He might not ever get that hot again, but he was that hot that night.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

You look at some of the other games that they played and they've been down just like last, just like the first game, guys making shots. So the thing is to spare yourself, you gotta stop falling behind by 14 to 20. Jo's you asking an awful lot to continue because as you Go further and further. The teams get better and better. You're playing the best team from stats wise, record wise in the NBA in the OKC Thunder, right? Because Shay was the mvp. They have all defensive player in Lou Dort. They have an all NBA player, Jalen Williams, to go along with Shai. And Dagnott is a very good coach. So you can't keep get for a. Well, you saw what we did against the Knicks. We went down and we beat them. Well, we. No, man, we went down 19 against the Cavs. That's these. The OKC Thunder are entirely different animal.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, they. They. They are. They are entirely, entirely different animal. I think you know, when your big guns are playing well. And I'm gonna speak on Shai, he was very efficient tonight. And yes, Caruso and Wiggins, who had great games. But, man, when y' all look at Shay, look at the pressure that he's putting on the defense, you have to send another guy, which is giving Caruso them wide open threes, or you running pick and roll and Wiggins wide open on the wing. And I don't know if you. Indiana. Do you trap him, try to get the ball out of his hand? Cause he keeps splitting.

[Tom Brokaw]

I would.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

And as a perimeter guy, I want to split the pick and roll. So I can have as many options as I can versus if I come off the pick and roll and y' all trap me and make me give it up to make some of these other guys make plays. But if I split the pick and roll and I got four, five options to shoot my floater or get to the cup, or to spray out the three or throw the live to check, then y' all in the huckabuck. There's no way you gonna be able to stop that. So I feel like they gonna probably have to trap a man and make him get that thing up so. And make these other guys make plays.

[Lester Holt]

That's the thing.

[Tom Brokaw]

I would trap him. Jail.

[Lester Holt]

Jail.

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm let you go after this. I would trap him. As long as Jalen Williams is struggling, he's still struggling. I'm gonna trap him. Because the only guy that's really shooting the ball officially is really like, the night was Caruso and Wiggins. But if you go look at chet, Chet was 6 of 11. First game. He didn't play well. He's 6 of 11. So he's. But Jalen Williams was 5 and 14. He didn't shoot the ball well the first game. You look at Lou Dort, one of three. Yeah, he got Caruso And Wiggins got most of his minutes tonight. And then who's the other guy? Wallace. Wallace got 23 minutes. He was two or four. So yes, as long as Jalen Williams is struggling, I'm gonna trap him. I'm making him give it up.

[Lester Holt]

It's a dangerous thing. If you do though, you better be right. Because at the. At the way that these guys are shooting threes, man, you'll pay the ultimate price. You know, traveling, if you're not getting to that rotation fast enough, you're going to be burnt. And the. When watching this game and I can't remember this many corner threes been given up, right? Man, obviously corner threes is the easiest three on the basketball.

[Tom Brokaw]

Shortest distance, right?

[Lester Holt]

The shortest distance. And it is corner threes galore, right. You know, on the floor. And it's just strange. So I think that's probably the reason why they aren't. Aren't trapping because everybody's shooting the three. But, you know, you just got to be right. You got to make sure that if you're going to trap, you got to get those rotations down.

[Tom Brokaw]

But if you look at it, guys, Caruso and Wiggins, they're nine of 18 from the three. The rest of the guys was five of 18. So I'm gonna take my chances. I'm gonna look at some point in time. Jay, you gotta give up something. Ocho, you know this. If you take something away, you gotta give up something. And let's see if they can consistently do that. Cause this is a big stage. This is not a regular season game. You're not playing Orlando, you're not playing Sacramento. You're playing the NBA Finals. You have the whole NBA world undivided attention on you. I'm going to see if somebody. Champ was one of three. Jalen Williams was one of five. Shea was one of four. Lou Dort one of three. Wallace was zero of two. So when you go back and look at it, with the exception of Caruso and Wiggins, everybody else was horrible shooting the three point shot. I'm going to make you. My adjustment is I seen shay. Shay's averaging 36 points a damn game. No, but let me take that back. He's averaging 37 a game. I got to do something. I got to do something, J. Because he's gonna be aggressive. Because if worse come to worse, he'll throw caution to the wind and says, I don't give a damn about efficiency. I'm gonna get these shots up and I'm gonna make you foul me.

[Lester Holt]

I mean, but I guarantee they didn't think Wiggins would go for 18 and Crusoes and go for 20. And I thought, no, I mean, but I get what you're saying about trapping them and trying to make somebody else beat him. First of all, I think it's, he's too crafty. Almost like they was trying to hard hedge a couple of times with him. He was, they were splitting the defense and doing those things. So he difficult trap and a very difficult contain. But again, when you go for 38 between two people, that that's uncounted for. Right. I can guarantee that wasn't in, in, in the game plan that Caruso Wiggins would have went for 38. So you know, you know, it's damn if you do damage. You don't, I guess.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, look, go ahead, go ahead, Joe. I agree, I agree with Jo and and to my point, when you look at Shay, you know, he goes, and when he, when he, when he brings the ball up on the wing, he goes into that Magic Johnson back down and he get into that back down. That's hard to stop for any of them dudes. So they have to send another guy which is why they're able to give up these corner threes. And you see guys like Wiggins and Caruso having great nights. It's because of the success of Shay Gilgames who is, you know, putting a lot of pressure on the defense. Cause if you don't come double, he's going to get a foul or he's going to score it. It's just period point blank with a.

[Tom Brokaw]

Problem that you're having. Go ahead, Ocho.

[Joe Johnson]

I was gonna say, I think he got, he got too many tools in the toolbox. Regardless of what your game plan is, when it come to playing Shay, you might want to just say, you know what, he gonna get his. No matter what you do. Sometimes you go into go to a game uncle, you know, you have a certain receiver, you say, you know what, we're gonna stop him. But you know you can't stop him. You can only hope to contain him and hope he misses. Basically just have to focus on the other four, focus on the other four. Allowing them not to get in rhythm and now them not to get their shots. If they do allow them to get their shots in rhythm, allow it to be minimal and in spurts. And that's really the only way because that goddamn Shay gonna get whatever you want. Whether you trap him, whether you ISO, whether you pick him up from half court, it don't matter. He gonna get His. But if you can contain the other four and manage them, then you'll be all right.

[Tom Brokaw]

But that's the problem that you ran into. You let Shay get 34, and then you let the other guys go get 38. Joe. So you've done nothing. You can't. I see. If you got, if you, if you take Shay and you say, you know what, Shay, you gonna get 20 to 24, and those other guys go get 38, I can live with that. I can't let the man get above his average and still give up that. Cause if I give Jordan, If I let Jordan get his 40 and I let Steve. If I let Paxton go get 18 or Steve Kerr go get 15, what am I doing? Now? I'm really at his mercy. Cause Jordan. Now I'm worried about Jordan going off, and now I got these other guys just, just, just shooting at me.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, I, I agree, I agree. But I think, I think you gotta mix it up with him.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, no, I'm not giving him steady diet. I think the thing is they letting one guy guard him too long. They let him play too much one on one, Jay. Oh, damn.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

That's what I'm saying. Like, they got him in this little soft catch, and it's like, man, he coming off. He got him. He got him at his wheel. Like, I think sometimes you kind of. You gotta go under a couple times. Maybe a couple times you gotta give him. Mix it up, give him different looks to make him second guess when he coming off them pick and rope. Cause if you don't, he gonna figure you out.

[Lester Holt]

Out.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

And once they figure you out, it's a wrap.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah, I think that and the big sometimes are too low, even if they up. Yeah, way too low. With a guy that crafty, man, he. I mean, he is. Even though they're picking him up full court, because they're doing, you know, they're doing a really good job on picking him up full court.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, they're trying to wear him down.

[Lester Holt]

And he's just, he's switching gears, man. It's almost. It's magical to watch him, you know, watch him play like that. And again, I just think that the way this game is being played right now, you just can't allow. And I agree with you on. You can't allow everybody. I mean, you can't have the team. Everybody can't. You know, they can't get everything. They can't get the bench going off. They can't get SGA going off. 30, you know, 30 plus. But I know that's what I said. It seems like it's a strange finals, to be honest.

[Tom Brokaw]

You Robbie jewelry. Look here, Ocho. If somebody coming to the jewelry store, what we gonna ate? Are we protecting the diamonds and the watches or we worried about. Oh, we worried about the necklaces and the bracelet. We got. Hey, we gonna pick two things that we. Hey. The diamonds and the watches. Hey, we got that. If they take them bracelets, they take the necklaces. The hell with it. But we gotta hold fast on the diamonds. Then they let shay go get 34. They let two guys come off the bench, go nine of 18 from the three. They like Shay like. Okay. And the thing is, is that when the big. When he put him in the pick and roll, they so far, so far back trying to hedge or catch him. Now he's even with him.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

That's a foul.

[Tom Brokaw]

You fouling him. He's going to the basket. He's not. Once he gets even with that big, he's not looking to pass that ball, guys. He's looking to put pressure on the rim and you gonna file him. Yeah, it's really that simple.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I agree. I agree. A lot of puff fakes getting into that.

[Lester Holt]

Yes.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

And I tell you what, unk them diamonds better be insured. Cause they can have it. I'm getting out the way. They can have them diamonds. I'm getting out of the way. Listen, the pressure that Shay puts on the defense, man, it's unbelievable. Like I say, guys, I think you gotta up these defensive coverages, man, because he looks extra comfortable out there. And Jay, I know they picking him up full court like they did Brunson to kind of wear. Try to wear him down. And they probably hoping by game4 he's a little tired. But man, when you look at Shay, look at his body type and look at his makeup, he. He is in the elite shape. He's not. He's not. A lot of these guys who out here got that's very high in body fat, you know, he looks like a guy who's out who. Who really take care of he lean. I'm being honest. Yeah, he's super lean. And for me, he don't look like a guy who's going to wear down.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. And I'll say this one thing that people want to talk about. You always hear about all the threes and how many threes people taking. But he is killing in the mid.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Post.

[Lester Holt]

He is killing. And what that has done is that has opened up everything else. You talk about the Carusos and the Wiggins Going for open jump shots. He's getting in there. He's drawing the entire defense and he's kicking it to people and they're knocking down shots.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Absolutely. He's been efficient from the mid range game all season long. Well, hey, hey, guys. He's been, he's been one of, he's been probably what, one of two or three guys who shot over 50% for a season from the field.

[Tom Brokaw]

Like, he's been at the guard position. He and average 30. I mean, he and Mike.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[Tom Brokaw]

I mean, think about a guard. Yeah, a guard.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

That's tough.

[Tom Brokaw]

J O Shooting 50% and scoring 30.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, that's tough. Now, I know some of the efficiency has kind of went out in this post season, but for the most part, you know, he's been very consistent and he's been a load to deal with. So whatever they decide to do, they gotta kind of mix these things up a little bit. I mean, he shot 12 free throws tonight. He was 11 for 12 from the line, so it lets me know he understood the assignment. Meaning coming out being aggressive. Hey, listen, guys, don't worry. I'm gonna put y' all on my back tonight. We are not going to Indiana. Down 02. And it was fun to watch tonight.

[Tom Brokaw]

Alan, you see that?

[Lester Holt]

Huh? Hey, yeah. You heard?

[Joe Johnson]

You know, I, I was getting ready to say piggyback a little bit off. What, what Joe said. Oh, he been like this all season, right? You say he shot 50% throughout the season.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, he shot like 52%.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Johnson]

Gio talked about, well, when you put that ball on the floor and you decide I'm f. To get to that mid range, depending on what you want to do, and he's consistent at doing.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

It over and over.

[Joe Johnson]

So no matter what you throw at him, even if you say you want to try, even if you say you want to confuse him to make, make shots contested, then they, they, they, they use. He's a, he's a foul merchant. He's always at the free throw line. Well, hell, he two steps ahead of you no matter what you want to do. He's, he's, he's already telling you, whatever your game plan is, I got something to counter that shit.

[Lester Holt]

Absolutely.

[Joe Johnson]

And he's showing it. He been showing it all season long. So.

[Tom Brokaw]

But, oh, you know this. In our, in our sport, if somebody comes out and all they play is single high safety, you gonna make, you gonna eat that up. If somebody come out, all they gonna play is cover T. All they gonna play is quarters. You've got to disguise it. You've got to give a guy. If you give a guy a steady diet of anything, no matter the medicine, you'll build up resistance to it. There's a reason why they give you X amount, says, okay, take. Take these and do you wean yourself off it. But if you just give a steady diet, you'll resist even antibiotics, whatever the medicine is. At some point in time, you're gonna have to fluctuate the dosage that you take. So if you just let Nem hard take him and let him play one on one.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

One.

[Lester Holt]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

Okay. Okay.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

He gonna figure him out.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey, ne Smith, you got it? Okay, Matherin, you got it. Hey, hey. As a matter of fact, when he come to the pick and roll. Hey, guys, both of y' all popping. We gotta make him get. Make him give it up. That's what I'm lookin If Hardenstein.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Come on.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Joe Johnson]

Hey, you know what he gonna do to you now? Look at everything you just said. It's going to be like a dude. It's going to be like a woman that work at the Bunny Ranch in Vegas. He gonna run through everything. He gonna run through it. Whatever you. Whatever you sitting at him. It's like you play Lamar Jackson. You just talked about all those different coverages. You got to show him something different. You play Patrick Mahomes, it don't matter what you're showing mom.

[Lester Holt]

It don't matter.

[Joe Johnson]

He gonna slice and dice because he's two steps ahead of you and understanding what's coming.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, I gotta. I gotta. I gotta make him think about something. Cause there might be that one time that I throw the. Look at him. And I get to put my helmet in his back.

[Joe Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey.

[Tom Brokaw]

And there gonna be one. They're gonna be one thing. Look, we don't like to chase ghosts. And guys, when we play football, we used to call it chasing ghosts. We're gonna prepare for what we've seen on tape. Now, they're. They're big. They're play 80% of this coverage. They play 10% of this coverage. They play 5% of this coverage, 3%. Now, I'm not gonna prepare for something that we haven't seen. I ain't chasing ghosts. But this is what I do know. Shay gonna be the. He's gonna take the lion's share of the shots. He's looking to play one on one. And if you let him play one on one, when that big is retreating, he gets even with it. He's not looking to pass. So I don't care. He doesn't care. If somebody does come at that point in time, how can I get to the rim or how can I get this shot off? Cause like you said, he will stop you jump, he jumps into you and he's looking to get an A and 1. So I'm going to give him a. I'm going to give. I got to change it up. Look, he's the MVP for a reason, but I got to do something.

[Lester Holt]

Well, ultimately this series may come down to really, really two people that they don't talk a lot about. Right. You got one coach in OKC that said they gonna play, they style play no matter what. Right. Rick Carlisle, who's the king of adjustments. Right. And so will that mindset from okc, you know, win them a finals? Or will, you know, Rick Carlisle's genius of being able to adjust when the NBA Finals, you know, for the, you know, for the Indiana Pacers, to me that's what it will come down to. We've seen Rick throughout the playoffs make these, you know, subtle adjustments that allow, you know, the Pacers, you know, to win these series. And I think ultimately that may be the difference maker in this series.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Hey, look, when you look at, when you look at Wallace and you look at Hardenstein, they didn't have great games offensively, but we talk about the second chance points. Wallace was what, plus 12 in the plus minus. Hardenstein was a plus 17. But the second chance points of Hardenstein tipping the balls out, tipping the balls back out, getting second chance three offensive rebounds. I think for me that's kind of like what we were talking about in game one. You know, coming late down the stretch, you playing that small ball. And this game, it was a lot different. Now obviously they had more control in game two and they didn't let those runs happen. That happened in game one. But for the most part, I see okc, they gonna play their way. They still gonna start with hungridge at the five and I guess they gonna see see what comes from that. Obviously they played a great game tonight, so I'm sure they gonna go with that same lineup starting game three.

[Tom Brokaw]

Shay follows up his game one 38 point game one with 34 tonight. It's the most points ever by a player in his first two careers.

[Lester Holt]

Year.

[Tom Brokaw]

NBA Finals game 72. Wiggins, we mentioned 18 points in 21 minutes. He was 5 of 3 from the three point line. He was plus plus 24. He's leading the Finals in plus minus. So he did what he Alex Caruso, 20 points, 6 of 11 from the field, 4 of 8 from the three point line. Tied for the most points ever in a playoff game. But look, Caruso has been here. Remember in the bubble.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

Remember how well he played for the Lakers? LeBron loved playing with him. Cause guess what? They had defensive presence out there. You have AD to protect anything. You had KCP that could hound. You had Caruso that could hound and say, hey, we good. So you look at what they have defensively. That's what makes them so good. Jalen Williams can play defense at an elite level. You got Wiggins, you got Wallace, you got Dort, you got Caruso, you got Chet and Hardenstein protecting the rim. They are a very, very good team. And they can rotate multiple times. A lot of times, guys, Jo and Joe, you know this. A lot of tag teams can only rotate 1. They can rotate multiple times. Yeah, I agree. This is they young, they're still the youngest team. And so one rotation, two rotation, three rotation and they can still get back and know it. If you get them, if you beat them to the hole they got checked that. Put it over 7 foot, put it over 6, 11 Hardenstein and test your luck.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, look, I agree, I agree. Ajo and my thing is when it comes to Indiana, they rotations were so late tonight, especially getting out to those threes and I think it cost them too. It cost them throughout the whole entire game. And OKC is great. And coming out of traps or coming out of double teams and spraying out to the three, getting to those guys, they not giving many wide open shots.

[Tom Brokaw]

So, you know. Nope.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I think Indiana has to. They gotta get on their horses when they come out of that them traps when Shay posting up and they just leaving guys wide open, man, you got two, three seconds before a guy even run out there and try to get a hand up, right?

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. Well, you know, I think with Indiana going back home and playing in that building, I think pace is going to be a deciding factor for them. Yes. You know, they play with a lot of energy. Great fan base. Energy is crazy inside that building. So I think them getting back get even on scores, getting the ball out fast. Think about in the previous in the clinching games.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh yeah, make a miss.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah, they're gone. Pascal, I mean that's the fastest I've seen him run, you know, since I've been watching basketball. And I gotta believe that Pascal Siakam is going to be a difference maker. Oh, he has to be a difference maker. You know, come game three in his own building, right? With that crowd behind him, because the passiveness that he had to start this game and I don't know, again, was the mindset, hey, we got us one, right? And we all know in sports, somebody can roll their damn ankle or something can happen. And, you know, you got to stay.

[Tom Brokaw]

Everybody, everybody.

[Lester Holt]

If an injury away, you got to stay greedy, man. And you got to take what you can take and not. And not expect that things can happen at home because, you know, you never. You never know. And so I just believe, like, if they can get back into that pace, that pace of pace that they play at, which is fast and aggressive, you know, you know, kicking and, you know, and driving that basketball, they have a good shot at winning this.

[Tom Brokaw]

I like what OKC is doing. If you notice guys, they're getting to the outlet, so you know how they normally get to have an outlet right there. Those guys, they're not going all the way back. They said, nah, we gonna stop these outlet passes because we know what y' all want to do. You want an outlet, One pass to the outlet, and the next thing you know, you got Halliburton Euro stepping and laying the ball up. You got Obi topping Euro stepping and dunking the ball. So what we're gonna do, we're gonna take away the outlet. Dribble it up, Halle. Dribble it up, Nemhard. No, we're not giving you no. No quick bat, no quick bunnies. That's not gonna happen. Wheezy had some advice from Halle ahead of game two. This is what he tweeted. He said, halle, you have to sweep these boys to get some real respect from these folks. Y' all clearly walking on water, and they act like y' all surfing. Hang ten, dude and make him ride your wave or drown. Ain't that a beach?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I like it.

[Tom Brokaw]

I mean, look, sometimes you could be a. Think about it. You could be a great something and just happen to be in the wrong era. There's a lot of great NFL quarterbacks, but if you played in the Manning in the. In the Tom Brady era era, you ain't getting no credit, right? If you played in the Jordan, you was a guard. Who. What guard got credit in the Jordan era? In the 80s and nine? What guard other than Magic in the 80s? And it was. He hit the 90s. What? Nobody talking about nobody else but him. Yeah, that. That's it. You look at the. And Holly is an unbelievable player, but when you got Luca and you still got Steph and you got Shay, I mean, you Got Brunson doing his heroic. It's like J O. You know how it is in the era. You played kind of like the tail end of the big era. I mean, look at all the bigs. But when Shaq was doing what he was doing, man, you, hey, unless you was Elijah 1 or Robinson, but there was some really quality bigs. But you don't get credit because these other guys are playing so well. Steph Curry, James Harden is still in the league. Steph Curry is still in the league. You got Luka still in the league. So it's going to be hard for, I think for Halle to get the credit that he deserves. Even if he wins, I still believe it's going to be hard for people to look at him as like I still would take Luke over him. I will still take Steph. I will still take the X, Y, Z and T. Well, the only reason.

[Lester Holt]

Why that is, right, and we talk about, you know, you heard this overrated stuff, right? A lot of it is it's the big game then the disappearance.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Lester Holt]

That is the only reason now we having a whole nother conversation is he come out tonight and he has 20 plus 20 plus points that really mattered, right? You can look in the fourth quarter with the 12 that he scored in the fourth quarter, well, the game is over. Empty calories, right? I think from a respect I do believe he is learning, right? Because if you look at his body expressions on the bench, right? He's talking to himself, right. You got to go through that experience, right, of people going to take Luka, they're going to take Steph because they're going to give you those, those 20, 30 40s on every night. He's trying to really. It's almost like he's trying to find himself without deteriorating who he truly is, which is a pass first point guard. And so we gotta give a little bit of grace. I just need him to be more aggressive to start and let the cars fall as they may as the game progress.

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Anjali Sud]

Thanks.

[Tom Brokaw]

And here's my old phone to trade. Trade in.

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Anjali Sud]

There's always a trade in.

[Zoe Saldana]

Not right now. @ T Mobile.

[Tom Brokaw]

I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma.

[Zoe Saldana]

That's okay.

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't really have much in my purse. Oh let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[Zoe Saldana]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Tom Brokaw]

Let me check this pocket. Oh mints.

[Zoe Saldana]

Really, I'm fine.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh I have rinse raisins.

[Anjali Sud]

I'm a mom.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wait wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on us. No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your phone up.

[Lester Holt]

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[Tom Brokaw]

Ported for well qualified plus tax and 10 connection charge payout via virtual prepaid.

[Lester Holt]

Card below 15 days credits and and balance due if you pay off early.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Unknown]

Made for this Mountain is a podcast that exists to empower listeners to rise above their struggles. Break free from the chains of trauma and silence the negative voices that have kept them small. Through raw conversations, real stories, and actionable guidance, you can learn to face the mountain that is in front of you.

You will never be able to change or grow through the thing that you refuse. The thing that you refuse to say, hey, this is my mountain. This is the struggle. This is the thing that's in front of me. You can't make that mountain move without actually diving into that.

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[Lester Holt]

Because.

[Unknown]

Because it's impossible for you to be the most authentic you. It's impossible for you to love you fully if all you're doing is living to please people. Your mountain is that.

Listen to Made for this mountain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sud, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive the competitive world of streaming. How she's turning so called niche into mainstream gold. Connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen.

[Anjali Sud]

What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

[Michael Kassin]

Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment and sports collide and hear how leaders like Angelique are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tom Brokaw]

You know who was the past first point guard? Magic Johnson. Until he got his ass in the NBA Finals against the Philadelphia 76ers and he went 42, 15 and 7. You say the hell with that pass, he said, and, and sometimes that's what you have to do. I mean, you know, LeBron is really a pass, but at some point in time, at some point, you got to, you know what, the hell with this.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right?

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm gonna get mine, y' all rebound and put it back in the hole. If, if, if you can't get it back out. Hey, and I think that's what Halle's gonna have to do. That's the approach he's gonna have to take.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, and that's.

[Joe Johnson]

It's all on, it's all on knowing when to hit that switch. Magic knew when to hit that switch. LeBron knew when to hit that switch. It's all about Halle understanding when he hit that switch. Especially doing it before, before your team goes down 15, before your team goes down 20. Get your ass going.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

It seems like he comes out and he looks for those other guys to kind of get them going. Yeah, like he has to understand he is him.

[Lester Holt]

You know what I mean?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Like, he has to come out, set the tone, set the pace in which they want to play to be aggressive because like you say, they won game one. So they did kind of seem a little like, okay, we don't look. They seem a little passive.

[Tom Brokaw]

Seat and content.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, they seem to look intense. So I expect a different pace of this team. To show up in game three. Guys being at home, playing in front of their own crowd, a lot more confidence. These guys will probably play at a much faster pace. They only had what, nine fast break points and they night that ain't gonna get it for them to win. We know they, they've been a great fast break team the entire season.

[Lester Holt]

Yep.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, it's gonna be hard to be OKC in a half court scene. Yeah, they got too many guy. They got too many great defenders. They got. Their hands are too good.

[Lester Holt]

Absolutely.

[Tom Brokaw]

Shay, look, Shay had what, four, four steals tonight. Shay had four steals tonight.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Points.

[Lester Holt]

But, but think about it. People a be talking about this. They got, remember coming through high school, they got the one kid that don't do nothing but run around with you. He. Well, they got door out there, boy, door out there. He has shadow with these boys right now. And I think people don't talk a lot about him. Obviously he's all defense, all defensive team, first team. Yeah. That is major when you can take somebody and say, look, he ain't playing tonight.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right. Right.

[Lester Holt]

You run around with him. And that is to me. And that does, I feel like that does have a little bit of an impact on what we see with Tyrese Halliburton early. Right. They're not letting him get a rhythm. They're not letting him get to his spots. They say, okay, y' all gonna play four on four while me and you over here, you know, run around.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, I agree, I agree with you and I love Lou Dork for that because his game isn't predicated off making shots or scoring. You know, that's a plus if he's giving you that. But he's in there strictly to be disruptive, to be a pest defensively and take out your best player. Ultimately, him, him and Wallace, that's why they're in the starting lineup. They not necessarily now, if they explode for 15 to 20 points, okay, we gonna pat them on their back. It's gonna be hard to beat em if they playing like that. But they're both in there for defensive purposes and they've been doing their job, especially now. Night.

[Lester Holt]

Yep.

[Tom Brokaw]

This is what Alel said. Rick Carliles has been a coach for the past 23 years. He could be the right man to elevate Halberton's game and the Pacers to a championship caliber team. Isaiah Thomas said, you went to an NBA finals, but you didn't win a championship until you met Phil Jackson. Zeke told Shaq tonight, Kobe Bryant didn't become Kobe Until Phil Jackson got there. Jordan didn't win until Phil Jackson got there. You got a coach in this series by the name of Rick Carlos, 65 years old, and we saw him the other night run triple stagger. And none of these OKC players had seen that before. Rick. Rick Carlisle is bringing some old school stuff. This is a different style of. Style of basketball that OKC ain't used to playing against. Well, you have to come out with something else, because I don't know what he ran tonight, but they ate that up.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I don't know what.

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't know what that was, Joe. But okc, OKC was ready for that.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, they had to. I mean, they. At home, best team in the league. They lost game one. They had no choice but to come out and play desperate like they did tonight. But I, I, look, I'm not putting them past the Pacers, man. They. They've shown. They've shown up and proven to me this whole entire postseason that when you count them out, them boys gonna bounce back, and they. They give you a great game. So the Pacers are still in control, guys. Yeah, you know, they just gotta protect.

[Lester Holt]

Home court, you guys. I had a chance to play for Ray Carlisle, and then. And so I know the level of coach he is. I remember being in the huddle sometimes, and he would just, after the first, you know, get the two horns, the first horn come, and he's just sitting there looking. And as soon as we hear that first horn, he starts to draw up sets, right, that we typically, you know, like in game situations, right? And that's the type of coach he is, you know, he's a savant. He's a basketball savant. And that's why I'm picking and willing to put a wager on the Pacers in game three.

[Joe Johnson]

Damn, Joe, what you trying to do?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Joe, what we doing? Jay on little friendly bet. Hey, let me tell y' all something. It's kind of conflicting for me, because Genaro Parko, I'm talking about my best friend, one of my best friends, he's assistant coach for the Pacers, So I'm. And then, you know, I got some former Razorbacks playing for the Thunder, so I'm conflicted. But if you want to put a little something on it, J. O, you know, a little friendly.

[Tom Brokaw]

Nobody ain't ever conflicted by money. You notice that, Joe? And you noticed about J O? Ain't nobody ever complained about money, Ocho. Ain't no conflict, no conflict at all about that.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

You know what you gonna do Baby, I mean, you know what I'm saying? Whatever we want to do.

[Lester Holt]

But we both got Zell, you know what I'm saying?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

The cash out, something. Hey, look, it ain't gotta be nothing to make you nervous, J O. Just a little light, honey, or two. We ain't gotta act like that now. Hey, God damn it. Hey.

[Lester Holt]

God damn it.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Joe.

[Lester Holt]

I feel good about the patients, bro.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Oh, do you?

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

You feel good about them going home, playing in front of their home crowd?

[Lester Holt]

Absolutely.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I ain't gonna lie. I do, too. But I just think. I think okc, man, they've been great on the road, fellas. They've been great on.

[Tom Brokaw]

They go home, get some of that country kitchen jail, they go get some of, you know, neck bone and fried catfish. Them wings, that Mac and cheese.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, hey, Jay. Oh, no, J O, you know, you can. You do have. Some teams do have a tendency to kind of let their guards down when they get home, though. They sleep in their own bed, you know, they get. They relax a little bit.

[Tom Brokaw]

They.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

You got 15, 20 people coming in town. Cause they wanna see the finals. So now you gotta entertain and. Oh, no, next thing you know. Yeah, next thing you know. Hey, you tired?

[Tom Brokaw]

How much NBA finals tickets cost?

[Lester Holt]

Oh, man, listen, I. I was checking the days I was taking my son.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Like second and third rows.

[Lester Holt]

5,600 per ticket, okay?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Oh, oh, oh. The type of.

[Joe Johnson]

The only. The only 56 I know is Lawrence Taylor. That's about it.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey, hey, them super bowl tickets be they. Hey, they head cracking now, man. Them two bowl tickets be going 15, 20, 30, 40, 50,000.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, look, you gotta look at the money these dudes making now.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah, well, that's one game, right? You talking like the front row. The floor seats was almost 12,000 per seat.

[Tom Brokaw]

But jail, think about how high you up, how high you in the state stadium. At least. At least you could yell somebody. They can hear you. You so high up paying 4,005, $6,000, ain't nobody hear you. But they do next door. You tell my man, stop all that damn yelling. That's the thing, man. Hey, check this out. Let me know what y' all think about this. The Knicks are reportedly preparing to make a tsunami type offer to acquainis from the Bucks. Yahoo Sports is reporting the New York Knicks would receive Giannis. Milwaukee would give them Karl Anthony tiles. Tyler Colett, Washington's 2026 protected first round draft pick. Two first round pick swaps 26 and 2030. Nah, hell no, that ain't enough.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Who the Talent.

[Tom Brokaw]

What about a tsunami?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Who's the second quarter?

[Tom Brokaw]

That ain't even damn raindrops.

[Joe Johnson]

Listen, that's what he said.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me read that again, because maybe it's me. Jay, I will get you a Joe. What y' all think about this? Okay? The Knicks would get Giannis, and in return, Milwaukee would get Karl Anthony Towns, Tyler Colette, Washington's 20, 26 protected first round pick. A first round pick and two pick swaps in 26 and 30. That ain't no tsunami. Me.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, look, no disrespect, but who was the second dude, you said, I don't even know who that is.

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't know. Hey. No.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I don't know who that is. J. What? What? What? They doing a tsunami? They ain't no Tsunami. On. But, boy, listen, if the Knicks pull that off, we.

[Joe Johnson]

I mean, ain't gonna happen.

[Lester Holt]

That's a tough one, man, because right now, any mega trade, you gotta give up. You gotta give up some core, right?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lester Holt]

You gotta make sure. One of the things I think is unvalue is the other. The other players, right? The support system, right? You start pulling out a way to go get a mega player, then. Then you know, you're gonna be in the. Probably the same place or worse, you know, by the time the mega player get there. So I didn't. In listening to that deal, I didn't hear anything. That, to me, will bring value back to Milwaukee, right? No. So, I mean, hell, no.

[Tom Brokaw]

So you go, so in other words, I'll give you Giannis.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

That's not a tsunami.

[Lester Holt]

That's robbery.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey, so let me get this right. I'm gonna give you Giannis, and I ain't gonna get. I ain't gonna try to get Mikhail Bridges. I'm not gonna try to get OG Anunoby. I ain't gonna try to get none of them.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Cause you basically gonna give them a championship. If you give them. Yes. Yeah, yeah. They gonna be in the Eastern Conference finals for sure.

[Tom Brokaw]

Show y with that. Think about it. You think about. So now you got a defensive team with Giannis that can protect you, got Josh Hart that can defend OG that can defend Mikel Bridges, that man, stop it. Whoever proposed this trade, y' all, that's not even a phenomenon. That's not even a ripple.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

You know, that's not happening.

[Joe Johnson]

That was. That was just to. To create a distraction, you know, to let you know, so what's going on behind the scenes can go under the radar. That's all that was.

[Tom Brokaw]

But I give credit.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

They put.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey, we gonna get y' all. Cat. They put the head like cat first. And I agree with you. I'm like, hold on. Tyler Coley.

[Lester Holt]

Who.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Who is he?

[Tom Brokaw]

I protected? No, that 20, 26, he need to be unprotected, man.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, listen, listen. I don't understand.

[Lester Holt]

If you gonna. If you're gonna make a trade like that, that. Was it the coach or is it the roster? Was it both?

[Tom Brokaw]

I think the thing is, when they want. When they beat the Celtics, now you call. You get what you call expectations of jail, because. So now you beat the Celtics, everybody said, oh, man, they gonna. They gonna. They gonna run through the Pacers. And it was supposed to be in the NBA Finals. And when it didn't happen.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, look up. Listen, if the Knicks get Giannis, man, they can put me ahead. Coach, I promise you, we gonna win some games. You hear me?

[Tom Brokaw]

We gonna make it.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

We gonna make it to these conference finals for sure. You get Giannis playing with all them other dudes, and you only giving up Cat. And that other dude you talking about, Un. I'm sorry. I don't even know who that is. But, boy, listen, it ain't gonna take much.

[Tom Brokaw]

I. I definitely think there are other teams that have more, could give up more. Hell, go to Houston and ask. Okay, give me Shun Goon. Give me Jalen Green. Give me two. Couple of. But now, that's better than Cat and this other Cat. I mean, come on, J. O. I mean, bro, even Swamp ain't no swindle. I feel you trying to swindle me.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Hey, listen, but what about this, Uncle? What if Giannis don't want to go out West? What if he want to stay in the East? Because the east will be a lot smoother. First the West.

[Tom Brokaw]

He said he wanted what's being reported. He wanted to go somewhere where they don't have any state taxes. Texas doesn't have state tax. Florida doesn't have state tax.

[Joe Johnson]

Hey, there you go.

[Tom Brokaw]

I think Tennessee doesn't have state tax.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

You go to New York.

[Tom Brokaw]

Ohio doesn't have state. Ohio have state taxes.

[Lester Holt]

New York's one of the worst.

[Tom Brokaw]

They do?

[Lester Holt]

Yep. New York and la, two of the worst.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, you already told me.

[Joe Johnson]

Listen, he already told you where you wanted to go, Uncle. All you got to do is read between the lines. That's all.

[Lester Holt]

But I mean, the question then is, you know, you kind of look at the Lakers, right? Yeah, right. The Lakers is they made the big. You know, make the big trade and just you know, Anthony Davis, basically for Luca. But they're making so much money between the two, you don't have enough money to construct the team at.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right.

[Lester Holt]

You need to.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right.

[Lester Holt]

And so, you know, the apron, the new tax apron deal just kicked in this year.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, yeah.

[Lester Holt]

Team's a little bit more bootstrapped. So the question is, wherever Giannis goes, wherever he lands, do they have enough giving away, whatever they got to give away to compete for a championship?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Absolutely.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, if they're only giving up Katt and Kolik, that's who. On your screen, you see the guy? That's Tyler Kolik on the screen right there, guys.

[Lester Holt]

Oh, that ain't happening, Coach.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Man, hold on, hold on. Ain't no way y' all just sending me Cat and this cat. No, I ain't going to.

[Joe Johnson]

Tyler nice with it.

[Lester Holt]

Now.

[Joe Johnson]

Tyler got some game.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Oh, here he go. That man don't even know who that is. Yeah, no, you don't. Ojo.

[Joe Johnson]

He went to St. Mary.

[Tom Brokaw]

But. But JL, if all you give it up in Cat and this gentleman that you see on the screen, they loaded.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Oh, man. Who came up with this is a lie?

[Lester Holt]

There's no way they doing that, bro. They just. They just talking, bro. They try to get some tweets and, you know, some likes and some repo.

[Tom Brokaw]

There's no way they do. Now you. You have to give up. You go. You go lose OG and Mikhail Bridges, you're gonna lose one of them.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

But then that's. That's kind of defeating the purpose if you. Yanis, right. If I'm going to New York, man, I at least want to keep one of them dudes. If you're gonna get.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, you keep one of them, but you ain't keeping both of them.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Okay, I can see that, but you can't take both of them, because now you take our grit and grind away and. No, everything is left up to Giannis and Brunson to do all the dirty work.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey, you could have one, but I ain't letting you keep both of them.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Them.

[Tom Brokaw]

So what is. What is it? Which one? Which one you want? Jail? You want og or you want Mikhail Bridges? But I'm getting one of them.

[Lester Holt]

I'm giving it with Mikhail Bridges.

[Tom Brokaw]

Okay.

[Lester Holt]

I think og. OG just does. He does a lot more. I mean, he. Yeah, he does a lot more offensively and defensively, but, I don't know.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Crazy.

[Lester Holt]

I like Cat. I like him. Do we think Giannis and Brunson can play together? Because Brunson is a ball.

[Tom Brokaw]

They so much Alike, they both need the ball a lot.

[Lester Holt]

A lot. So I don't know. If you make that, you give. I don't know. I mean, it.

[Tom Brokaw]

It don't look good because both of them. Usage rate. What is, what is Brunson's usage rate? What's Giannis usage rate? Because both of those got to have the ball in order for them to function. I don't think either guy is really good without the ball.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, I agree. Giannis can't. Giannis is not great without the ball. He's. He's most effective when, and, you know, he has a ball in his hand coming downhill, whether it's off a rebound or what have you. But making plays, spraying out the guys for threes and getting to the basket, putting pressure on the rim, that's when he's at his best.

[Lester Holt]

Yep.

[Tom Brokaw]

Giannis was first in usage with 35. Brunson was 13th at 29. Yeah, so you got two guys with high usage.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

And I don't think with Brunson and, and, and Yannis, I don't think Brunson.

[Tom Brokaw]

Is that good without the ball.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Nah, he's not that great, but he could play without it. Like, he catch and shoot, as opposed to Giannis, he's not a catch and shoot person at all. So if you running a pick and.

[Tom Brokaw]

Roll, he ain't a shoot person. Damn. Catching and shooting, he ain't a shoot person. He a layup. He a layup and dunk type person.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right. So listen, if you running a pick and roll with Giannis and Brunson, that don't scare me.

[Lester Holt]

Right.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Versus, you know, Cat and Brunson. Because Katt can pick and pop.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, pick and pop. So the big Giannis ain't picking and pop.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Ain't popping.

[Tom Brokaw]

Ish.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, he ain't. So the big gonna always stay and let Giannis shoot that jumper all day long.

[Tom Brokaw]

All day long.

[Lester Holt]

That's why I don't like, I don't like. I don't like them trading Cat, though. Right. Cause at least Cat, I mean, I get it, he doesn't defend as well, but he's different from anything else that they have. Right? And if he really, really looked in the mirror and said, look, every time I take my ass to that box, I'm working him. Right?

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right.

[Lester Holt]

Every time he just works him and then he just go back out to the three point line and stand on the three point line. If he really just get to that dominant form, man, he can be everything that the Knicks need. Obviously, adding a couple more pieces here and There, But I like Cat with the Knicks. I don't like Giannis with the Knicks.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

I. I like Cat 2 j. O. But it's less resistance out there on the perimeter for him versus if he in that paint.

[Tom Brokaw]

It's.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

It's. It's a doggy dog world down there. It's grit grind. You know what I mean? It's a lot.

[Tom Brokaw]

They bumping and grinding down there. He ain't want. That ain't. That ain't what he looking for.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, you gotta be. You gotta be in some elite shape to be able to, you know, take that bump and grind night in and night out. And I think that's why he always drifts back and out to the three, because, like you say, it ain't gonna be no resistance out there. Like, it's. You know, guys, he could just sit out there and just kind of shoot jumpers. But, Joe, let me ask you a question, though.

[Lester Holt]

I mean, I'm sitting there trying to.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Think who the hell outside of him.

[Lester Holt]

And be who the hell down there.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Jokic. It ain't about. We just talked about. It ain't about.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes. Yeah, it ain't. But like, four or five is. Cat is Joel Embiid is Yok. It's Shingoon.

[Lester Holt]

Yep.

[Tom Brokaw]

It Rudy Gobert, but.

[Lester Holt]

And he ain't really posting. Right. He really.

[Tom Brokaw]

Or you take Sabonas.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

So to me, it ain't. It ain't the.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

It ain't the.

[Lester Holt]

It ain't the grind in the post. To me, it got to be his conditioning and how in shape he is.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Absolutely.

[Lester Holt]

You know, and I, you know, every. Every night it was a power four.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Right.

[Lester Holt]

You know, I didn't. There. You spin off one, is another one there.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right.

[Lester Holt]

They talking about the two bigs from tonight.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

That was normal. Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

But so now when I look at it, he. Typically, when he's playing that post, he's bigger than everybody.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

He's maybe the exception of three or four of the people in the league.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

He dares have got the skills to score down there. So to me, I think he got in a little bit better shape. Right. To have a little bit more endurance. He can mix and match how he wants to play his game. He'd be a lot better. But, you know, it's a hard rock to see him get up, try to get up and down the court at that age. You know what He's. He, what, 28 now? 20.

[Tom Brokaw]

Can't. Probably like 29.

[Chad Ochocinco Johnson]

Yeah, he didn't. He. He looked like he labor. He especially in this yeah, 29 up and down that floor the volume.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Michael Kassin]

I'm Michael Casson, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sud, CEO of Tubi. We dive into the competitive world of streaming.

[Anjali Sud]

What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Tom Brokaw]

Hi, I'm Sarah Spain, host of Good Game with Sarah Spain and the co author of the new book Runs in the Family, an incredible true story of Football, fatherhood and belonging. Written with and about Las Vegas Raiders running backs coach Dylan McCullough. It's the story of a football coach and father of four who sees his life forever changed by the unsealing of his adoption records. And it's got a twist you won't believe. Based on the viral ESPN story I did a few years ago, this book will blow your mind and bring you to tears. By Runs in the Family. Wherever books are, are sold. This is an iHeart podcast.