Model in a Box: The Kidnapping of Chloe Ayling

Summary

Podcast Summary: Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore

Episode: "Model in a Box: The Kidnapping of Chloe Ayling"

Date: July 15, 2026
Hosts: Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Podcast: Clues (Crime House Original)

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Overview

This gripping episode takes a deep dive into the notorious 2017 kidnapping of British model Chloe Ayling, exploring the key evidence, unraveling media narratives, and exposing the failures—both systemic and societal—that complicated her ordeal. Hosts Morgan and Kaelyn retrace Chloe's harrowing experience, from being lured to a fake modeling shoot in Milan, drugged, and held for ransom by the so-called "Black Death" crime syndicate, through her controversial release, the sensational press coverage, and long quest for vindication. The discussion punctures media myths, highlights the nuanced nature of trauma and victimhood, and analyzes the digital forensics which ultimately cracked the case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Setup: A Kidnapping by “Black Death” (04:40–13:06)

• The Lure: Chloe, a 20-year-old British glamour model and new mom, is booked for a Milan photoshoot. After brief contact, she’s abducted by two men, drugged with ketamine (found later in her system), and stuffed in a suitcase.
• Advance Planning: Chloe was comforted by the legitimacy of the shoot: it was arranged by her agency and included an advance fee (£1200). She’d even met “Andre,” the supposed photographer, in Paris months earlier—a meeting later revealed as an aborted kidnapping attempt.
• Early Mistakes: Chloe's agent, Phil Green, failed to properly vet the job or the studio. Post-disappearance, he only discovered no Milan industry contacts had ever heard of the location ([11:06]).

Morgan (11:06): "The whole point of an agency... is to make sure you're going to legitimate things and check them."

2. Ransom & “Black Death” Organization (13:09–20:07)

• Ransom Demand: Chloe’s agent receives an ominous email. The purported "Black Death Group" demands £270,000, threatening auction to the Russian mafia. The email names men known through Chloe’s modeling career.
• International Response: UK and Italian police coordinate high-level negotiations, keeping the case secret to protect Chloe and encourage communication.
• Dark Web Hoax: Investigators discover the "Black Death" had long operated a dark web site advertising criminal-for-hire services, trafficking, and auctions. Journalists had previously revealed it as likely fictitious—more scam than syndicate—casting doubt on its existence.

/> Kayla (19:18): "When I look at it... part of me is like, are these 12-year-old boys that figured out how to use the dark web?"

3. Media Involvement & Proof of Life (23:06–26:10)

• Proof: Kidnappers send disturbing photos of Chloe in a suitcase, in a pink bodysuit—recreated by Italian police; they appear focused on humiliation.
• Public Threats: The kidnappers begin leaking threats and auction adverts to UK tabloids, but their lack of knowledge about Chloe (e.g., describing her as not a mother) leads the press to initially dismiss it as a hoax.

4. Chloe’s Release (26:35–41:27)

• Strange “Release” Announcement: The kidnappers suddenly say they are “standing down” due to alleged new Italian developments.
• The Consulate Walk-In: On July 17, Chloe and her captor, “Andre,” are caught on camera arriving together at the UK consulate. She claims he is her “friend,” but can’t name his phone number, exposing his identity as her captor.
• Captivity Story: Chloe reveals being threatened, chained, “fawned” over by her captor (real name: Lukasz Herba), and told a series of tall tales about the all-powerful, omnipresent Black Death.
• Psychological Manipulation: Under duress and ketamine, Chloe adopts a survival strategy—playing along with his infatuation, even discussing a ‘future together.’ She endures six days of captivity, including odd errands like shopping for shoes with her kidnapper—a key detail later sensationalized to her detriment.

Morgan (36:57): "How would you not believe it? They just kidnapped you."

5. Media & Public Backlash: Victim-Blaming (44:18–62:45)

• Disbelief & Double Standards: Chloe faces doubting interviewers—most notoriously Piers Morgan and 60 Minutes’ Liam Bartlett—who grill her about buying shoes, why she didn’t run, and her emotionally “flat” demeanor.
• Victim Stereotypes: The hosts highlight how survivors’ responses are policed by the public/media for “perfect victim” behavior—being too calm, too “happy,” or too composed becomes cause for suspicion.
• Chloe’s Autism Diagnosis: In hindsight, Chloe’s difficulties with expression and “matter-of-fact” manner are traced to undiagnosed autism, only discovered after years of being misunderstood ([72:16]).

Chloe (62:30): "I feel like I was in defense mode... People didn't like that. They expected me to be crying, but I just don't cry in public. I don't like it."

Morgan (62:56): “Honestly, the media affected me long term more than the actual kidnapping itself.”

6. The Forensic Evidence & Crack in the Case (43:50–54:33)

• Digital Trail: Police find Lukasz’s encrypted emails, confirming he created the Black Death dark web content—no sign of a larger criminal group.
• Physical Evidence: Rental and surveillance records, plus a shopping trip with Chloe in captivity, help dismantle the “hoax” narrative.
• Accomplice: Digital evidence and hair in Lukasz’s car link his brother, Michel, to the kidnapping—his unsuccessful attempts to clean the evidence are traced.
• Confusion Over Details: Chloe’s initial misreporting of the number of kidnappers is ultimately found to be a result of her captors’ use of masks, fake names, and shifting languages.

7. Trial, Verdict, and Aftermath (65:25–74:20)

• Conviction: Lukasz is convicted of kidnapping and drugging Chloe, sentenced to 16 years and nine months; his brother Michel to 16 years (later reduced).
• Bizarre Appeals: Both attempt to blame Chloe or claim “romantic” intent. Court finds them lacking credibility, but appeals reduce sentences due to perceived “acts of love”—a troubling precedent, the hosts argue ([69:55]).
• Chloe’s Fight for Vindication: Despite being exonerated in court, Chloe is pilloried for returning to work, public interviews, and participation in ‘Celebrity Big Brother.’ She later publishes a memoir (“Kidnap”) and features in a BBC docuseries.

Kayla (70:05): "It's the idea of the perfect victim—you’re not allowed to do anything that suggests you’re enjoying your life at all."

8. Broader Reflections: Victim Support & Trauma (74:05–75:28)

• Trauma Responses: Hosts stress there’s no “normal” reaction to trauma; everyone processes events and survival differently.
• Societal “Care Gap”: Referencing Deborah Turkheimer, they discuss how society prioritizes skepticism over empathy for survivors, urging listeners to focus on “it happened, it was wrong, it matters.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Agent Phil’s Failure ([11:06]):
  Morgan: “Phil basically just googled the name and was like, okay, there’s a website. Cool.”

• On Media Victim-Blaming ([50:47–52:18]):
  Piers Morgan: “Why on earth would you go shopping with one of the alleged kidnappers and why you didn't try and make your escape?”
  Chloe: “I couldn't flee because... I was completely brainwashed into thinking that there’s a whole massive crime organization against me... No one can tell me how I should have behaved with a kidnapper.”

• On the Press’ Hostility ([58:56]):
  Morgan: “He got me kidnapped, literally, because he didn’t vet the job.”
  Kayla: “That guy is so fired—what are you talking about?”

• On “Perfect Victim” Myth ([61:38]):
  Morgan: “They wanted her to appear distressed...almost implying, like, because you're remembering this so perfectly, you must be lying.”

• On Autism Diagnosis ([72:16]):
  Morgan: “Chloe’s story is really a reminder that there is no normal response to trauma. Every brain is unique.”

• Chloe’s Own Words ([62:30]):
  Chloe: “People didn't like that. Like, they expected me to be crying, but I just don't cry in public. I don't like it. I hate it.”

• Media’s Long-Term Harm ([62:56]):
  Chloe: "Honestly, the media affected me long term more than the actual kidnapping itself, because that's how horrendous it was."

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Important Timestamps

• [04:40] — Chloe’s background and kidnapping
• [11:06] — Critique of agent Phil Green’s failure
• [13:09] — Ransom email received; the “Black Death” dark web presence
• [23:06] — Disturbing proof-of-life photos sent by kidnappers
• [26:35] — Contact with newspapers, claims Chloe will be “auctioned”
• [31:01] — Chloe recounts her ordeal to Italian police; drug test confirms ketamine
• [36:47] — Psychological manipulation by Lukasz; fawning for survival
• [48:33] — Media obsession with “going shoe shopping” detail
• [50:47–52:18] — Piers Morgan interview excerpt, Chloe’s defense
• [54:33] — Arrest of accomplice (Michel Herba)
• [55:13] — Chloe’s return to the UK; public/media cynicism explodes
• [65:25] — Trial and outcome
• [72:16] — Chloe’s autism diagnosis and its explanatory power
• [74:05] — Reflections: No “normal” victim, the care gap

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Tone and Style

The hosts bring lively skepticism and compassion, balancing forensic scrutiny with advocacy for survivors. They often express frustration at poor institutional responses and societal double standards (“I hate Piers Morgan botch!”) while offering encouragement and reminders that trauma responses are diverse and personal.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a thorough, sensitive, and eye-opening recounting of Chloe Ayling’s kidnapping, its investigation, and the toxic public aftermath. The Clues team powerfully illustrates how victim narratives are shaped—and often distorted—by both media and society, and they urge listeners to check biases, advocate for survivors, and remember: “It happened. It was wrong. It matters.”

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For more on this case, see Chloe’s memoir “Kidnap,” or watch the BBC docuseries “Chloe Ayling: My Unbelievable Kidnapping.”

Transcript

[Vanessa Richardson]

Foreign.

[Morgan Absher]

This is Crime House.

[Kayla Moore]

A young mother books an overseas modeling gig, but when she arrives, she's drugged, abducted and held for ransom by what seems to be a dangerous dark web crime syndicate.

[Morgan Absher]

The media storms Chloe ailing from the moment she arrives home and begins demanding answers from her. But once she's released, her nightmare just intensifies. Hi, welcome to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.

[Kayla Moore]

I'm Kayla Moore. I'm going to be the one digging deeper into the timelines, the backstories, and the court files released on these cases.

[Morgan Absher]

And I'm your Internet sleuth Morgan Absher. I'm the one who's diving into anything I can find online to talk about those lesser known details and pull out the threads that just don't add up. Don't forget to share your thoughts on social want ad free and early access to clues and the rest of the Crime House lineup. Subscribe to Crime House plus and get at least two bonus episodes from across Crime House every month. To join, go to crime house plus.com or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap try free at the top of the Clues page. Now let's get into Chloe Aileen's case and the clues that to find it.

[Kayla Moore]

This episode is sponsored by our favorite and the softest, best blankets ever, Minky Couture. Get yourself a hugs blanket, Cuddle up and enjoy the episode. This episode is brought to you by Quint. The best summer pieces are typically the ones that you end up wearing on repeat. The ones that are comfortable, versatile and somehow right for almost every occasion. And that personally is why I love Quince. They make elevated essentials using premium materials like European linen, organic cotton and washable silk without the traditional retail markup up. I have so many quince pieces in my closet I talk about it all the time. If you've listened to the show, I think I've gone through every single piece that I own. But I'm looking at the website now for what I want to buy for summer and I'm seeing 100 European linen long sleeve shirts, 100 European linen sleeveless swing dresses. They also have summer sweaters like their lightweight cotton cashmere link stitch dolman sweater which is really gorgeous and comes in a bunch of different colors. And as always I love their wide leg pants. They have these really gorgeous 100 European linen wide leg pants that I really want to get and everything at quinn is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories. Love that. And cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for exceptional quality, not brand markup. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quint.com clues for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q I n c.com clues for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com clues.

[Morgan Absher]

I feel like this is one where I was deeply upset doing my research.

[Kayla Moore]

It's so frustrating. So frustrating. It's the classic. Well, I mean, we'll get into it. But there's so many times that I wanted to throw my computer across the room.

[Morgan Absher]

I genuinely, I watched so many interviews that Chloe ailing did. And again, you guys will see a lot of clips throughout this episode of these interviews. I've never been so mad. Like, throw the computer. Like, I'm like, are these people idiots?

[Kayla Moore]

Like Piers Morgan has no ops. We're dead.

[Morgan Absher]

I mean, the guy from 60 Minutes Australia, Liam Bartlett. Dude, are you even listening to her? You're asking her the same question ten times. Victim shaming.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

Victim blaming, like galore. I'm like, what are we doing here?

[Kayla Moore]

We're gonna show you guys a lot of clips today from these interviews because I want everyone to be sounding off in the comments on just what they think of them.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. And you guys might have heard of this case before. You might have an opinion based on the media and what you saw out there. A lot of people still do in the comments. Going through comments on some YouTube videos is really, really jarring still. But when presented with evidence and going through this investigation, let us know if that changes for you. Let us know if you learned something new that you didn't before. Without further ado.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah. So like I said, we're going to be showing you guys some videos. You're also going to see some pictures and stuff that'll help you visualize the case. And if you're listening, you're going to see all that same stuff on our Instagram that's at Clues podcast on social and you should follow us there. Anyways.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. And just a warning before we begin. This episode does contain discussions of kidnapping, stalking, essay, human trafficking, sex work, and as always, please just listen with care.

[Kayla Moore]

Our case today starts on July 10, 2017. 20 year old British model, also new mom Chloe Aing steps off a plane in Milan, Italy, where she's booked a photo shoot for a motorcycle ad. That following day, after she collects her bags, Chloe lets her mom and her agent know that she made it there safely. Chloe's an experienced traveler. She is used to going places alone. And plus her agent, this guy named Phil Green, set up the gig for her. The client even paid her a fee of 1200 British pounds in advance, equivalent to around $1600 in US dollars today. And Chloe briefly met the photographer once before on a job in Paris. So she takes her taxi to a hotel where the client has booked her a room. And after checking in, she spends the day working out at the hotel, eating lunch and dinner and doing a little shopping in the Italian boutiques. The next morning, July 11, she wakes up early for her 8:30am shoot. She checks out of the hotel and takes her luggage with her since she's gonna be flying back to the UK after she wraps the shoot that night, she makes her way into the studio, which is an apartment in Southeast Milan. Chloe has a little bit of trouble as she's trying to find this place. So she calls Andre the name of the photographer, but instead this guy named Daniel, who Chloe doesn't know, answers the phone. He tells her that Andre's running late and he explains how she can get into the building. Chloe follows his directions and finally she sees this sign that says Studio. She heads through the lobby towards the unit. She has no idea that as she's walking into this building, there is someone behind her. Suddenly, a black gloved hand is around her neck. Another covers her mouth, preventing her from screaming. And then a second man appears from behind her as well. She's fighting for her life, trying to get them to uncover her mouth and nose so that she can breathe, when suddenly she sees them stick her with a needle. She feels it sink deep into her right arm. And then everything fades to black. Now, before we get into where this story leads us, let's rewind a little bit and talk a bit more about Chloe. Now, Chloe Ailing was born on June 14, 1997 in Colesdon, South London, which was. It's not exactly the best neighborhood. In this area, one in three children do grow up in poverty. Chloe wasn't as disadvantaged as some of her neighbors, but she wasn't exactly set up for success either. Her dad left when she was born, leaving her mom, Beata Ailing to raise Chloe alone. Be was one of about 700,000 members of the Polish community that lived in the UK. Polish is actually the most common immigrant language there. But Polish people in England say that they have faced a lot of discrimination. There's also issues of underrepresentation and pressure to appear as English as possible. So Chloe started life already feeling like she was singled out by her peers for this difference. And on top of that, she did struggle in school, mostly because she had trouble communicating. And that's because Chloe had a developmental disability. She had trouble expressing her needs. She often felt like she couldn't talk at all. Sometimes she knew exactly what she wanted to say, but she just couldn't make the words come out. It was so serious that her mom would often come with her on school trips just to act as Chloe's voice. And when Chloe could express herself, she noticed that people perceived her feelings and her expressions as wrong. They, like, didn't blend in with everyone else's. Adults scolded her for not showing enough emotion and that really frustrated and confused Chloe. And it seemed like she was always getting in trouble for just being herself. So Chloe, from a young age really learned to keep her head down. She did as well as she could in school. She focused on her future and for her at the time, that meant becoming a lawyer. And she was on track to pursuing that goal when life threw her a curveball. And that's at 17 years old, she found out she was pregnant. The father was her 18 year old boyfriend, Connor Keys. They stayed together through the birth of her son in November 2015, but they ended up splitting up just six months later. Motherhood made it really hard for Chloe to focus on finishing her studies. And her dreams of being a lawyer were just not going to happen at that time. But she did have another passion that she could fall back on at least, and that was modeling, more specifically, glamour modeling. And that really prioritized sex appeal. She knew her looks were a good fit for this. She had blonde hair that was big and would often be teased out. This hourglass figure. She had really high cheekbones. Plus, successful glamour models get to travel a lot and she really wanted to see the world. So she hustled. She got her first gigs by attending events and networking with photographers. And as her career started taking off, she signed with Philip Green at a big agency called Supermodel uk. From there, she started booking bigger gigs, including that shoot in Milan on June 11, 2017. But what should have been another step in her career ended up becoming a life or death situation back in England. It was going to be hours before anyone realized that Chloe was missing. Her photo shoot was scheduled for 8:30 in the morning and she was supposed to end in time to fly back to England that same evening. So Chloe's mom, Beata was waiting for her at home that night. But Chloe never walked back in through the door. After trying to call her and not being able to reach her, Bayada immediately felt like something was wrong. So she called Chloe's agent, Philip, and he confirmed with the airline that Chloe did miss her flight back to England. But he thought that there must have been a good reason for this. You know, Chloe had booked a shoot for two days later in Ibiza. Maybe she just went straight there. She didn't want to come back home first, she wanted to just go straight to the next shoot. So Phil tried calling and texting Andre, the photographer in Milan, to see if maybe Chloe had left the shoot early. But Andre never replies. When there was still no word by the next morning, July 12, Philip told Bayada that she should contact the police. Meanwhile, Philip called some contacts in Milan to ask if they knew anything about the studio where Chloe was supposed to shoot. And none of them have ever heard

[Morgan Absher]

of it before, which is insane. Like the whole point of an agency, and Chloe talks about this quite a bit, is you have an agency to book these shoots and be the middleman and make sure you're going to legitimate things and to. Yes, check them.

[Kayla Moore]

Yes. I'm getting a botch to Phil. I know that like Phil, big botch, big botch, yeah. Botch usually talks about the investigation but like just in terms of doing your job, like especially because Chloe's a model so you only make money if she makes money. So like it's your job to take care of her.

[Morgan Absher]

It's your job. It is oftentimes joked about in terms of this case, but basically from what I've seen, Phil basically just googled the name and was like, okay, there's a website. Cool.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah, yeah. Didn't do his due diligence at all. And I mean the fact that you're like calling people after the fact to be like, hey, what do you know about this location? And they're like, I've never heard of that.

[Interviewer]

Who?

[Kayla Moore]

What? You didn't double check?

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah.

[Kayla Moore]

Interesting. Phil, I'm watching out for you this entire episode.

[Morgan Absher]

So at this point Phil is getting pretty worried. And it gets even worse that day when at 10am Philip received the first clue, a ransom email. It read, quote, we have Chloe and we are the Black Death Group. Unless you pay money to us by Sunday, she will be put to auction where she may get sold to the Russian mafia, end quote. They then demanded 270,000 British pounds as ransom, about US$360,000 today. The email also included the names of three older well off men who knew Chloe through her Modeling work. The kidnappers suggested Phil ask those people to help pay the ransom. Of course, Phil recognized the names and to him, this was essentially proof that they were talking to real kidnappers. To have this information, they must have gotten it from Chloe herself. So this is looking legit. But now Phil is getting a sinking feeling in his chest. I mean, he had just sent his 20 year old client to Italy alone on a very poorly vetted job, no less. And now she's being held for ransom, one that he couldn't possibly pay.

[Kayla Moore]

Meanwhile, Chloe's mom, Bayada, had called the London Metropolitan Police, AKA the Met. She gave them Phillip's number and they called him for more information. At which point he did tell them about this ransom email. Minutes later, a group of highly trained police negotiators arrive at Philip's home. Officers would now be staying with him around the clock until the situation was resolved. Mainly because they needed direct access to his devices so that they could be the ones communicating with the kidnappers. But in order to negotiate successfully for Chloe's release, the police needed to know more about this group that said that they were taking credit for the kidnapping. And they appeared to be a dangerous and ruthless criminal organization. Foreign. This episode is brought to you by alma. ALMA is on a mission to simplify access to high quality, affordable mental health care. When you want to talk to a therapist, the last thing you want to do is fight with insurance. Figure out if someone's available. Like the process can be so long that it actually turns you off from doing it. But Alma has built a community of over 26,000 diverse therapists. Also, clients with insurance pay $20 on

[Morgan Absher]

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[Kayla Moore]

Yes, over 1 million people have found care with Alma. Get started now at hello Alma.com clues. That's hello Alma.com C L U E S Hi listeners, it's Vanessa Richardson on a special four episode conspiracy theories, cults and crime series. I'm taking you to four kinds of dream getaways that went from paradise to deadly. A woman vanishes while snorkeling off Aruba Two backpackers murdered on a moon moonlit beach in Thailand. An NBA champion who disappears off his own catamaran in the South Pacific. These were supposed to be the trips of a lifetime. Listen to our special Deadly Destination series every Sunday on conspiracy theories, cults and crimes. Or if you don't want to wait, all four episodes are available right now ad free on Crime House Plus. To join Crime House plus, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify [e-mail] as a young adult, finding the right path to your future can feel overwhelming. It starts with Europe United's tuition free job training program, Career Pathways. If you are without a bachelor's degree but have a high school diploma or ged, you can get skills first training to succeed in the industries you're passionate about, all while earning a weekly educational stipend to offset basic expenses. From there, you'll have access to internships and hands on experiences with Fortune 500 companies. And with year up United's job placement services and personalized coaching and mentorship, you can put your knowledge, skills and most importantly, confidence into practice. Apply to Europe United today and take the first step toward achieving the career you want. Visit yearup.org to learn more.

[Morgan Absher]

On July 12, 2017, police in both the UK and Italy were trying to learn more about 20 year old Chloe Ayling's mysterious kidnapping. And the more they unraveled, the more complicated things got. First they learned that Europol, the European Union's international law enforcement agency, had published a dossier on cybercrime a year earlier. In 2016, it actually included screenshots of a website belonging to the same criminal organization that claimed to take Chloe the Black Death. They are our second clue. Their webpage wasn't just one that anyone could access. It's essentially an Onion service, which is a special type of site that can only be viewed using an anonymous web browser called Tor.

[Kayla Moore]

And Tor, if anyone is like recognizes that word, that's a commonly used dark web thing. Tor, I believe, stands for the Onion router, and it's something that you use when you're trying to get access to the dark web, basically.

[Morgan Absher]

Now, the Black Death site specifically offered a bunch of different criminal services for hire murder, hacking, terrorist attacks, even targeted kidnappings. It also described how people could bid on kidnapped teenage girls at an online auction. The prices ranged from 120,000 to 750,000. The youngest victim that was listed on the website was 15. It was all horrifying, but the police were very skeptical about its legitimacy. They learned that back in 2015, two years before Chloe's kidnapping, a journalist from Vice had actually contacted the group undercover. They'd asked about a woman that was advertised, and the group sent back images of the supposed victim. But the vice journalist did some digging and they turned out to be stills from a pornographic film that was available online.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah, and like, their website is super goofy too. Like, I'm looking at it now, and first of all, it's a bunch of plague doctors. They're like the Black Death. And so they're little logos of plague doctors, but they have these little updates. They're kind of like tweets, but they're from 2010, so. And they're all just kind of funny. One of their updates says, we have had to move websites. We will do it anytime. We are getting too popular. And then the next update is due to a high demand, we now sell explosives. We still operate standard bombing service. Another update is new service Mercenary is now available, which makes me think of Hitman. It's probably that. Yeah, this is due to requirement of more than one man for hire. Already busy. Oh, my gosh. We are moving. All existing customers have been emailed. New dot onion URL. It's like, I don't know, these are just kind of silly updates from a

[Morgan Absher]

website that's supposedly a legitimate criminal organization.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah. When I look at it, there's part of me that is like, oh, are these 12 year old boys that figured out how to use the dark web and are just posting silly updates?

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. And the police thought that too. Yeah, the police were looking at this Black Death site as a work of fiction that was just created by a scammer, a prankster, someone trying to be funny. I mean, the Vice investigation never found any evidence that the person they got screenshots of was kidnapped. So to kind of everyone that's looking into it, it's looking like it's fake. And was maybe someone just trying to trick gullible people into paying for things in cryptocurrency that they would never actually receive. But now, two years later, maybe things had changed. I mean, Chloe Ayling really was missing. And with the Black Death taking responsibility, that's their only lead to go down.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah. So of course, in all of this, still, Chloe's safety is their first priority. And the good news was the kidnappers seemed pretty willing to communicate. But in an effort to not scare them, investigators in both England and Italy kept their investigation a secret from the public and their, quote, coordination with Chloe's agent Philip under wraps. So for the time Being there was not going to be any search parties, there weren't going to be any news stories and definitely no missing person flyers. Instead, the Italian authorities focused on reconstructing all of Chloe's movements from the time she arrived in Milan until her disappearance less than 24 hours later. And I guess, like just a note here too, this just clicked with me, is this is only like 10 years after Amanda Knox. Right. So really not that far out from another instance of like the Italian government, like, investigating a foreigner. Yeah, they looked for security footage, they secretly questioned potential witnesses, and they combed through Chloe's cell phone data. Because of the secretive nature of the investigation, we don't really know everything that the Italian authorities did or learned at this time. But what we do know is the same day Philip got that ransom email, the police searched the address of the supposed photo studio and all they found was an empty apartment. Well, that and Chloe's jeans, jacket, shoes and passport that were still inside. They also tried to track down Andre, that photographer who booked Chloe for the shoot. But like the studio, it turns out that Andre didn't exist either. At least not under that name. Police haven't shared all the details, but as far as we can tell, they weren't able to learn Andre's real identity from the contact information that he had given to Philip. But he wasn't the only one they looked into. They were also interested in three wealthy men that were listed on that ransom email. Police wondered if any of these three men listed in the ransom note might have some information. Did they know someone who might have wanted to hurt Chloe or hurt them? Well, the police tracked down one of them. It was a 57 year old investment banker who had been friends with Chloe for about three years. He was someone Chloe met while she was networking, trying to boost her career. And now, after hearing about her kidnapping, he was willing to help. He was willing to put forward some of the money that they needed for the kidnapping ransom, but he could only offer 20,000 British pounds. And the kidnappers, remember, were demanding 270,000 British pounds.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah, quite the the difference there.

[Kayla Moore]

Yes, definitely not enough. The other two men were reportedly an adult content manager and a celebrity agent. They didn't pitch in at all for the ransom. Now, it's not clear if they didn't want to put up the money or if police advised them not to. We don't really know why they didn't put up any of the money, but they did cooperate by speaking with the detectives and trying to offer up any information. However, it turned out, they didn't really know anything of value. So the negotiation team decided to use the banker's money to keep the kidnappers talking. They at least had something that they could use, thinking that maybe it would just buy them a little bit more time.

[Morgan Absher]

So the police pretended to be Philip through his email and they made a lowball offer of £20,000. The kidnappers declined, but they did offer proof that they still had Chloe, bringing us to our third clue, terrifying photos. After rejecting the offer, the kidnappers emailed a set of pictures of Chloe stuffed in a zippered suitcase for Chloe's privacy. Those photos have never been released, but the Italian police did recreate the scene with an officer about Chloe's size. The recreation revealed that Chloe was on her side in a fetal position with her hands cuffed in front of her. She was wearing a pink bodysuit and socks, nothing else. This willingness to humiliate Chloe kind of told police that maybe this was more than just a quick payday for them. Maybe these kidnappers were actually sexually motivated. And naturally, this made detectives even more concerned for Chloe's safety. Even if the Black Death wasn't this criminal organization that it claimed to be and their auction threats were bogus, that didn't mean that Chloe was safe. Which seemed even more apparent when, two days after her disappearance, the kidnappers applied more pressure. And this time, they were looking for publicity, bringing to our fourth clue, the kidnappers contact with newspapers. On July 13, several British outlets received a disturbing, incoherent email. It reads, quote, did you know Chloe Aileen has been kidnapped in Italy and is now for sale by Russian mafia? See attachment. I been sending wit codes, but people dunno how to open, so I send unprotected now. It will be fucking hot, mate. End quote. The attachments included a photo of Chloe lying on her back on a tile floor. Still in the pink bodysuit. She appeared to look either really dazed or potentially drugged in the photo. She had a calling card on her stomach advertising the Black Death. There's also an ad for Chloe's auction calling her a, quote, beginner model. It claimed she was being held in Germany and listed at a starting bid of US$300,000. It said the auction would take place online that Sunday, July 16, 2017, and was open only to previous customers or people recommended by a previous customer. People who qualified to bid were instructed to contact the group for a link. They had Chloe's age wrong on this website, though they actually listed her as 19 when she had actually just turned 20 the previous month. And There was something else super strange about the ad. It said that the Black Death didn't traffic, quote, girls that are terminally ill, pregnant, have STDs or our young mothers, end quote. But Chloe was a young mother. There were pictures of her 20 month old son all over her Instagram. Pictures from when she was pregnant even. And so it started to seem like maybe they didn't know Chloe at all. Even. Which may have been why the papers wrote this email off as a hoax entirely. I mean, they were used to receiving hundreds of false salacious tips every day. Plus, the police still hadn't told the public about Chloe's kidnapping. So none of it was adding up to the papers. However, the publication did do their diligence and they forwarded the messages onto Britain's National Crime Agency, just in case.

[Kayla Moore]

So Chloe had disappeared on a Tuesday and the emails sent to the newspaper said that she would be auctioned off that Sunday. But by Sunday morning, there were still no new leads. Then later that day, Chloe's agent got a shocking and very vague email. The kidnappers said they would be, quote, standing down because of new developments in Italy. They didn't say what those developments were, but they promised Chloe was alive and she was healthy. But could these people really be trusted? And also, what did that mean? What does that mean, standing down? That's so vague and random and scary,

[Morgan Absher]

like your mind is just going to spiral to the worst.

[Kayla Moore]

Yes, exactly. Now, police didn't have any idea what this could have been until the following day. Because on Monday, July 17, the case took a wild turn when Chloe, ailing, was seen on camera walking into the UK consulate in Milan. And she wasn't alone.

[Morgan Absher]

This episode is brought to you by Groons. I am really, really prioritizing my health and I know that I wasn't getting enough vitamins and nutrients. And that is where Groons came in. Groons are a convenient, comprehensive formula in one delicious daily pack of gummy bears. This isn't a multivitamin, a greens gummy or a prebiotic. It's all of those things and then some at a fraction of the price. And bonus, it tastes great. I have a pack of Groons in my purse pretty much constantly now. It's my little sweet treat, my snack that also makes sure I'm getting the nutrients I need. It's this perfect solution to have a daily pack of gummies because you can't fit the amount of nutrients Groons does into just one gummy. And my favorite part, they are vegan, nut free, gluten free, dairy free. They don't have artificial colors or flavors, but they do have 20 plus vitamins and minerals and 60 ingredients that are nutrient dense whole foods. They even have a low or sugar free option. GR has 6 grams of prebiotic fiber. That's more than 2 cups of broccoli and you may even be eligible for reimbursement with HSA. FSA and Gruyn's ingredients are backed by over 35,000 research publications. If you're ready to try it for yourself, save up to 52% off with code CLUZ at Gruuns co. That's clus@g r u n s dot co this

[Kayla Moore]

episode is brought to you by Shopify. If you own your own business, you know that you want to reduce the amount of friction that it takes between a customer wanting to buy something and them actually making the purchase. And that's why I'm excited to talk to you about Shopify today. If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify makes it easy to make it happen. Everything you need to start selling is already included from day one. Because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it. If you're starting your own business, that's usually when it shifts from setting up your business to actually building it. When you have the time to think about those more important things and you're not doing the nitty gritty of just setting up checkout. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to small businesses that are just getting started. Which could be yours. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Go to shopify.comclues and start your free trial today. That shopify.comclues shopify.comclues so on July 17, 2017, Chloe Ayling arrived at the UK Consulate accompanied by a tall, awkward man. And you can see in the footage them walking in together. The consulate staff immediately recognized Chloe since they'd been helping coordinate the search for her. So they summoned the Italian police and they detained the guy who was also there with her. From there, investigators took Chloe to a private room and asked her all about the man she showed up with, but Chloe claimed that he was her friend. She explained that she had escaped from her kidnappers and as soon as she got away, she called the only person in Italy whose number she knew by heart, the friend that she walked in with. But the police were not really sold on this story. They Asked her, hey, if this is your closest friend, the only number you knew by heart, what's his phone number? And she could not say it out loud. She did not know what his phone number was. And that's when detectives knew for sure that the man they were holding was not a potential witness. He was now their primary suspect, and they feared that Chloe wasn't telling them the whole truth.

[Morgan Absher]

Now, Chloe didn't speak Italian, so the police provided an interpreter. The story she told them is our fifth clue. Chloe explained how she was grabbed outside the photography studio six days earlier and how she was injected with an unknown substance. That's when detectives ordered a drug test. It came back positive for ketamine. And just a note that we have from our researcher. It is possible to detect ketamine in urine for several weeks after if a dose is large enough. So Chloe said that when she woke up, she was inside of a suitcase, and she could feel that she was riding in the trunk of a car. Her wrists and ankles were cuffed. Her mouth was taped shut. But she still did try to escape, which caused her kidnappers to stop the car and threaten her with another injection. Chloe was terrified and knew that she didn't really have a chance of getting away, so she agreed to quiet down and cooperate. During that interaction, Chloe actually saw one of the man's faces. The other one was wearing a ski mask, though the man whose face was exposed appeared to be about 40, pale, thin, with facial features that Chloe actually thought could be Polish. She later learned that the entire drive was about 120 miles, and when they got to their final destination, she was carried into the house still in the bag she was in, up several floors. The kidnappers eventually took her out and let her use the restroom. Then they led her to a bedroom where she was shackled to a heavy chest of drawers next to a single bed. They left her alone for a few minutes, and then the man with the uncovered face came back in. He explained to Chloe that he was part of a criminal organization called Black Death, which kidnapped and trafficked girls and women, but that his boss was furious with him for taking Chloe. He claimed that the boss had seen Chloe's Instagram page and noticed that she was a mother, which was a problem because they didn't make as much money off of moms with young children. Wasn't some nice, oh, you have kids at home? No. It was because women that had had kids were less valuable. By the time they realized it, though, it was too late. They had already posted Chloe for sale on the Dark Web. The Unmasked man said that his boss was on the way to the house to sort things out now. And when he arrived, Chloe recognized him. The boss, who referred to himself as MD Was actually the photographer Andre, the one who she had met briefly in Paris and was supposed to then work with on that shoot in Milan.

[Kayla Moore]

So she had already met him before, previously on a job.

[Morgan Absher]

And that is when Chloe knew the minute she saw him, she's like, this whole thing has been a setup. This whole thing was just to kidnap me. But shockingly, this wasn't the first attempt. You see, Chloe had gone to Paris three months earlier for a shoot back in April 2017. That's when she had met Andre the first time. But that shoot was canceled after she got there. Now, there had been a terrorist attack in Paris, somewhat near the studio. And in all of the chaos, Andre said that someone broke in and stole all of his expensive photography gear. At the time, he apologized profusely, let her keep the fee, promised to book her again. They actually shared a taxi back to the airport. So Chloe had spent a little bit of time with him face to face. She knew it was him. But it was even more confusing than, like, you had me in Paris. Why not follow through?

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah, she's kind of thinking, like, what happened?

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah, the Paris attack was legitimate. Like there was an actual terrorist attack there.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah, I remember when that happened.

[Morgan Absher]

Andre wasn't lying.

[Kayla Moore]

Horrifying.

[Morgan Absher]

And so, you know, Chloe started thinking maybe with the police presence and just everything being heightened, he chickened out. But clearly this time, he got her. And so suddenly, there she was, chained to a chest of drawers in a strange house with waiting to be trafficked online. But Andre seemed to really take a liking to Chloe. Once he arrived at the house, he basically stayed by her side the remainder of her captivity. And he told Chloe that he was a prisoner too, in his own way. According to Andre, the Black Death was a Romanian criminal organization that had infiltrated every level of society. And a person on their hit list wasn't safe, regardless of where they were in the world. And Andre apparently wanted out. But the Black Death wouldn't let him leave unless he paid €300,000 and signed over 20 properties that he allegedly owned. That's why he eventually agreed to hold Chloe for ransom. And if no one paid, he would then have to sell her on the Dark Web. Essentially, he needed this money to escape. Still, the thought of trafficking Chloe disgusted him. He knew that the Black Death's clients were ultra wealthy men who would treat her brutally and if they grew bored, they would kill her without hesitation. I think he told her that the

[Kayla Moore]

rich men that would have her would feed her to cows.

[Morgan Absher]

I heard that in one source I saw. This is coming from Chloe herself in an interview. Once they grew bored, they would feed her to their tigers.

[Kayla Moore]

Oh, the tigers. That's right. Yeah. They had exotic animals, and they were gonna feed her to the tigers. Yeah, is what he's telling her. Yeah. So it's, like, terrifying for her.

[Morgan Absher]

I mean, they just kidnapped you, injected you with ketamine, and now you have

[Kayla Moore]

to process out all of this information. Like, not only am I part of this big group, but I don't want to be part of it. I feel horrible that I have you. I don't want to sell you on the Dark Web. If I do, they're going to feed you to their tiger.

[Morgan Absher]

They're going to kill me.

[Kayla Moore]

They're going to kill me. But, like, it's what I got to do because I'm trapped. And she's just sitting there and she's like, the ketamine is still wearing off, and she just, like, has to process all of this.

[Morgan Absher]

I mean, how would you not believe it? How would you not believe it?

[Kayla Moore]

I mean, I would be so turned around.

[Morgan Absher]

They just kidnapped you.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

Like, I'm going to believe everything that comes out of their mouth.

[Kayla Moore]

And because it almost happened in Paris, too, like, it feels like there's some sort of international element to it or like this is part of some, like, big scheme. So it does.

[Morgan Absher]

It feels. Crime Syndicate.

[Kayla Moore]

Yes.

[Morgan Absher]

Syndicate. Like, it's. It feels really big time and real.

[Kayla Moore]

It does, yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

And of course, Chloe believes them. On some level, she even sympathized with him. But she also noticed that he might have a little weakness. It seemed that he might have some feelings for Chloe. At one point, he asked Chloe for permission to kiss her and even asked if they could be in a relationship.

[Kayla Moore]

Have you heard that term incel horror that's going around in, like, horror movies right now. We're talking about, like. Like obsession kind of being that. Or there's like, a movie with Joe Keery called Spree. There's also. There's like, a couple, like, incel horror movies, and it's kind of what this one is feeling like.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. Because it's a lot of people's worst nightmare. Like.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah. By this. Because he's already giving you the nice guy shtick.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah.

[Kayla Moore]

I don't want to do this, but I have to or else I'm gonna get in trouble too. And, like, you know, you're actually really pretty. Can I kiss you?

[Morgan Absher]

Oh, my God. I would love for a psychologist to chime in on what they think about that and, like, how the human mind would react to something like that. Where it's like this horrible thing is happening to you. But, like, I'm gonna be the good cop. I'm gonna be the nice guy. Like, the way that would rock my brain.

[Kayla Moore]

The worst type of psychological torture, because that would work on me too.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. Essentially, all this is going on, he's saying, can I kiss you? And Chloe's kind of realizing that maybe the best way to save her own life might be to lead him on. Talk about a potential future they could have together.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah. She immediately, like, for being in a ketamine haze, like, immediately starts playing chess and is like, okay, like, how do I maneuver the situation? I think I know what his weakness is.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. And I think a lot of people forget about. There's so many different ways you can react to something scary, traumatic, whatever. Of course, there's the very well known ones, fight or flight. But there's also freeze and Fawn. And Chloe was fawning to save herself. On the second night, Andre actually offered for Chloe to sleep in the bed with him instead of on the floor chained to the chest of drawers. And Chloe agreed. She did say that he was a gentleman about it. He even folded up a blanket to divide the bed in half so that she could have her own side. Every time Andre would bring up a relationship, though, Chloe would say that it would have to happen in the future after she was released. As the days passed, Chloe started to realize that she was wearing him down. Then on Sunday, July 16, the day that Chloe would supposedly be trafficked, Andre told her that he was willing to let her go on four conditions, though. First, after being freed, she had to ask that her case be dropped and refused to answer any questions from law enforcement. Second, she and her family could never say anything negative about Black Death. Third, she had to do interviews and promote Black Death in order to help them gain even more customers in the uk.

[Kayla Moore]

That is so weird to me.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. Please go on a publicity stint for us.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kayla Moore]

Can you please talk about my dark web group, like, in interviews so we can find more members? Like, it's just so weird. It's so weird.

[Morgan Absher]

I'm like, I'm just sitting here bamboozled,

[Kayla Moore]

like the biggest criminal group in Europe that you're supposedly a part of, and you need to scout members on talk shows. I just. I don't. It's so weird.

[Morgan Absher]

It's insane. And fourth, which might be even more absurd, Chloe had to pay Andre 50,000 in Bitcoin within a month of her release, or else the Black Death would track her down and kill her. Of course, Chloe agreed to all of it.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

And then the next morning, July 17, Andre told Chloe to get dressed and that he would drop her off about 20 minutes from the consulate. Then she could walk the rest of the way. But she said that she was too scared to walk through Milan alone. I mean, Andre had told her that the Black Death had members everywhere. And of course, like, she's believing him at this point.

[Kayla Moore]

They also said that they were, like, out with guns too, right? Like they were standing there just waiting for her to be sniped?

[Morgan Absher]

Basically, yeah. And so Andre made a new plan. They'd go to the consulate together, where she would just introduce him as her only Italian friend. It turns out the consulate wasn't open as early as they were expecting. So again, they kind of pivoted and they ended up getting breakfast together at a local cafe before. Which brings us back to the morning of July 17, where Andre is now being detained.

[Kayla Moore]

So while the Italian authorities worked at unraveling Andre's past, they asked Chloe for a favor. They wanted her to stay in Italy and help out with this case. So she locked herself in a hotel room, terrified to even open the door for room service. She truly believed that the Black Death was still out there and members could just be waiting for her outside with guns. Like anyone could be a psyop, like, waiting for her to make the wrong move.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. And now Andre is in custody. If there's an organization out there, they're going to know it went wrong.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

Who's the first person they're going to come looking for?

[Kayla Moore]

She's terrified.

[Morgan Absher]

Her.

[Kayla Moore]

Meanwhile, detectives are working at breaking down Andre. And he gave up his real name right away. He was 30 year old Lukasz Herba. He was born in Poland, and he was currently living in oldbury, England, around 150 miles from Chloe's hometown. Lukasz worked as a computer programmer, and according to his neighbors, he wasn't a very social guy. But he was known for walking around with a pet rat on his shoulder. He had been following Chloe's Facebook page basically since she started her modeling career. But the main thing, police realized, was that he seemed to live in his own reality. He claimed to be the chairman of a board at a technology company that did not exist. He told police he had leukemia and joined the Black Death because he couldn't afford treatment, but he couldn't provide any documentation on any of that?

[Interviewer]

No.

[Kayla Moore]

Nothing on a diagnosis, no contact information for doctors who had treated him, nothing. Lucas also claimed that the Black Death had paid him 500, 000 British pounds to rent properties for their criminal activities. But again, he had no proof of anything. No money, no proof of the rentals, nothing. Lucas had so many made up stories that even he didn't really seem to know the difference between fact and fiction.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah, he's probably getting confused with so many lies, too. I will say, you guys, I did try to find a picture of the rat on his shoulder. Couldn't find it. If anyone does, I will send you a present because I would be curious to see that. At this point, the British police decided to look into something that couldn't lie, which is Lucas's computers. Our sixth clue for us. On July 18, the day after Chloe was freed, they got a warrant to search the apartment Lucas shared with his 36 year old brother, Michel. They seized every electronic device that they could find. And digital forensics found a ton of encrypted emails. Based on what they read, detectives came to believe that it was Lukas who posted most, if not all, of the information on the Black Death's dark website, including the content that appeared in that 2016 Europol report. In fact, they couldn't find evidence of anyone other than him posting to the Black Death site. Still, it wasn't enough for them to write off the possibility that the Black Death was a real criminal group. But it was looking more and more like Lukas was the only member. They also found proof on Lucas's computer that he rented the apartment used as the fake studio in Milan to entrap Chloe. And they found a file called Chloe PDF on his desktop. Inside the file was a threatening, over inflated message about Chloe's release. Part of it read, quote, chloe, you have been released as an act of enormous generosity on the part of the Black Death group. Any kind of disobedience will result in your elimination, end quote. The document went on to refer to Lukas Andre as, quote, one of our most important and highly respected men, end quote. It said that Chloe owed the Black Death 50,000 for his services and the cost of her release. And then it included an assortment of threats about what would happen if she didn't follow through, including a reminder that she could still be trafficked. They realized that Lucas had written this intending to send it to Chloe later on after he dropped her off at the consulate. And it really seemed to these investigators that he Actually believed the Italian friend story was going to work. It didn't, obviously. But before investigators could be sure Chloe was safe, they needed to solve one more problem. She had told them four or five men were involved in her kidnapping, and she'd given them a pretty clear description of one man who she did see without his mask. So if Lukas made the Black Death up and was its only member, who were these other men? Well, things became clear when detectives spoke to Chloe again. They had initially reached out because they wanted to share a new piece of evidence with Chloe. Which is our seventh clue. A statement from a shopkeeper. By this point, police had found the house where Chloe had been held captive. It was a rented farmhouse near Turin, about 120 miles from Milan in the Italian Alps. When they found the place, detectives then went around and canvassed the area for local witnesses, and they found a saleswoman who swore that she had sold a pair of shoes to Chloe and lukas together on July 16, just the day before Chloe was freed. But in her first interview with investigators, Chloe didn't mention this shopping trip with Lukas. In fact, she had mentioned that she didn't leave the house during those six days in captivity. But the saleswoman couldn't have been mistaken, because there was a security video of Chloe and Lucas in the shop together. Another camera captured them walking down the road wearing matching white T shirts and holding hands. And another witness in town remembered seeing Chloe and Lucas, too. They had even assumed that the pair was a romantic couple. And we do have some video clips of them walking that we're gonna play for you guys. Now, Chloe did admit that she went shopping with Lucas. She said that he had taken her out in order to get her shoes for their trip to the consulate. That was gonna happen the next day. And Chloe said the reason that she didn't share this detail with police early on was because she was exhausted after hours and hours of questioning. And in one of the sources, it was 12 hours of questioning. And we do have an interview clip here with Piers Morgan where he's grilling her on this detail about, why did you lie? Why did you lie?

[Kayla Moore]

It's the lying. And also, I think a lot of male interviewers really cling to the fact of, like, the shoe buying, because for women, buying shoes is seen as such a, like, frivolous, fun thing. Not like, oh, I'm buying shoes, because right they were. He was having her buy shoes so that she could walk to the consulate.

[Morgan Absher]

She didn't have any shoes. Her clothes and everything was found back at that empty apartment.

[Kayla Moore]

Exactly, exactly. But they take it as like, oh, this is truly something you could have only done if you were in a fantastic mood and safe and like, this was something that was fun for you, not like, oh, this was part of your survival. And so that's why they really cling to this detail.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. I mean, there's so many people even in these interviews that are like, yeah, you're right, peers. If I were in that situation, I would have bought shoes and ran. It's like, you guys, like, again, fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn. You have this opportunity. He's doing what he says he's gonna do, which is release you if you keep playing along. Black death, big organization. What happens if she tells a shopkeeper what happens if she tries to run? She might not be safe.

[Kayla Moore]

I'm just giving it a I hate Piers Morgan botch. Just cause.

[Morgan Absher]

We're gonna play the clip for you guys. Let us know what you think of the interaction in the comments. Again, when I watched a lot of these interview clips with Piers and Liam Bartlett, like, I was horrified.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You gave a series of police interviews afterwards for 13 hours, three separate interviews, and you were asked about a tracksuit and shoes that you were wearing when you finally got out. And you told the police you were given them before leaving the house, but then they presented to you evidence that a shopkeeper had confirmed that they'd seen you with one of the kidnappers, buying groceries, buying shoes, laughing and joking, apparently without a care in the world. This has led to a lot of raised eyebrows about why on earth you would go shopping with one of the alleged kidnappers and why you didn't try and make your escape.

[Vanessa Richardson]

I couldn't flee because, firstly, he was armed. But it's not just because of him. I was completely brainwashed into thinking that there's a whole massive crime organization against me. So even if I was successful in fleeing, even if I got back to my house, I would still be killed if there was not an official release. Why is she lied to release? Because it was like the 10th hour of the interview and I was.

[Interviewer]

That doesn't explain why you would lie about it.

[Vanessa Richardson]

I didn't lie. I just brushed it off.

[Interviewer]

You don't think it's significant that you were out shopping with one of the alleged kidnappers?

[Vanessa Richardson]

Yeah, it was just in the little village. I was. Just brushed it off. I said, I got the tracksuit because he gave it to me. And the shoes. I just don't know.

[Interviewer]

But you understand that when you know there's been a lot of speculation about this. Obviously emphatic denials from the people who've been accused of this and they remain innocent until proven guilty. But one of the reasons that people I think have been been skeptical is because this information has come out that you lied to police about a pretty

[Vanessa Richardson]

but it hasn't just emerged. It was already in the police report. So they already knew about that. They're just trying to make me look like a bad person to get readers. That's what the papers are portraying the story in something it's not. And that's what's creating the.

[Interviewer]

Well, the papers were portraying you with some skepticism. And then it emerges this week.

[Vanessa Richardson]

But it didn't emerge. It was already out there.

[Interviewer]

Well, it's been published this week, been reported that you lied to the and that's the problem is that no one can quite get their head round why you would lie to the police about such a key thing.

[Vanessa Richardson]

I just brushed it off. I was shattered.

[Interviewer]

It's not insignificant, is it, to be going shopping with one of the alleged kidnappers and buying new shoes.

[Vanessa Richardson]

No one understands the reasoning. Unless you were in my position and actually went through what I've been through. No one can tell me how I should have behaved with a kidnapper or how I should be reacting now.

[Morgan Absher]

Now, investigators did decide that this shoe trip did support Chloe's version of events. I mean, Chloe had already told them that she really did try to encourage Lucas's romantic feelings towards her because the more he liked her, the more he wanted to let her go. And if she was really in fear for her life, that explains why she didn't try to escape during that shopping trip.

[Kayla Moore]

But there was still the question of how many kidnappers there actually were. Chloe said she did believe that there were five different men involved. And Chloe did did think that Andre slash Lucas came in from out of town so that he could scold the lower level kidnappers. If that were true, that meant that there had to be at least three Andre plus the two men that took her. But after going back through Chloe's story, police determined that Lucas was probably the second masked kidnapper all along. After they got to the house, he took off his mask and introduced himself to Chloe as a different person. Which was how detectives came to believe that there actually were just two kidnappers. Kidnappers that convinced her there were more by using masks, fake initials, and switching their language from Polish to English.

[Morgan Absher]

So now investigators are really only looking for one accomplice. And police had a pretty good idea who that could be. And the evidence against that Accomplice is our eighth clue. When they took all of Lukas electronic devices, police found a text message that he had actually sent. It told a person to clean the trunk of his car so Chloe's hair wouldn't be found there. The recipient of that text message was Lukas brother, 36 year old Michel Herba. Police then impounded Lukas Volvo and checked out the trunk to see just how thoroughly Michel had cleaned it. Michel did remove Chloe's hair from the trunk, but he accidentally left his own behind. In fact, hairs found in the Volvo's trunk turned out to match both Lukas and Michel. I mean, the two lived together so it wouldn't be super unusual under normal circumstances. But knowing that the trunk was used to transport a kidnap victim, it seemed like pretty damning evidence. And that's when police in Italy applied to the UK. They wanted Michel extradited. Two face trial in Italy on August

[Kayla Moore]

6, 2017 it was finally time for Chloe to go home. She'd been in Italy for almost four weeks at that point. And around then police had told her that Lucas was probably the only real member of the apparently fake syndicate, the Black Death. It wasn't clear how much Michel had even known about his brother's fake criminal organization. But when Chloe got home, she didn't arrive to a warm welcome. It was actually the complete opposite. Chloe didn't realize it while she was secluded in Italy, but a lot of people in England felt like her kidnapping story was so bizarre that it had to be a hoax. I mean, we've literally covered this on the show already.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. Denise Huskins.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah. A group of reporters had gathered outside her mother's house waiting for her to arrive. And she thought if she just answered their questions, they would all leave and just go write their stories. So that day she gave an interview in her mom's front garden wearing the short shorts and tank top that she had just flown home in. And this was disastrous for her image. It had the, the complete opposite effect of what she was hoping for. Chloe, you know, came off in this interview as being bubbly and gleeful, which to be fair, is how she was feeling. She had just survived this whole ordeal and was home. But people felt like this was not the appropriate response after being kidnapped. A lot of people thought that she looked too happy to be a victim. And also there was her profession. The public and the British tabloids started to say that Chloe had actually staged her own kidnapping as a ploy to get famous.

[Morgan Absher]

Which is insane because if you listen to interviews with her, she talks about how she did not want this to get out at all.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

She did not want this leaked to the press. She wanted to fly under the radar, embarrassed, not address this. Super embarrassed. And talk to multiple people about this. And then the Italian press leaked it because coming from the interview, they thought it was a public concern. Which you're telling this girl that the black death doesn't exist. It seemingly was a one off. Like, is it? I don't know.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

I'm not sure.

[Kayla Moore]

Right.

[Morgan Absher]

Not Italian government and police. But it's still. It's like she didn't want this to get out.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

So why?

[Vanessa Richardson]

What?

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah, right. But of course, they're using it as. This was like her trying to get famous. Even some of Chloe's friends, other models, fed into this. They posted pictures of themselves curled up in suitcases as a joke.

[Morgan Absher]

The articles are horrendous. Horrible. Horrendous.

[Kayla Moore]

Her son's father took the opportunity to complain about Chloe spending more time modeling than with their young son. Jail to that. Man, I hate that so much. She's a working mom. Leave her alone. But the hoax idea never fit the evidence that was there. Because remember, there's already two guys that have been arrested for this crime, or at least, like, are in custody over this crime in Italy. Regardless of if you think it's fake. The police already knew that Chloe and Lucas hadn't been in touch since before the kidnapping. Other than their brief chat about the canceled parachute, they were connected on Facebook but had never messaged each other. It seemed like Lucas was just a fan and a stalker. I know. They bring this up a lot too. Like, well, you guys were friends on Facebook. One it was. I think he had friended her in like 2010. Like, it was a totally different time.

[Vanessa Richardson]

Yeah.

[Kayla Moore]

To have friends on Facebook also.

[Morgan Absher]

They don't live that far apart. She's a beautiful young woman, model, public figure. Like, I added everyone under the sun on Facebook when I was growing up. You. The more friends you had on Facebook, the cooler you were. I know.

[Kayla Moore]

And I remember they used to have a limit as like 5000 friends was the max that you could have. And so we'd have competitions with each other of who can have the most friends. And you just start friending everyone random. But they take that to be like, well, you guys were Facebook friends, so you must have been friends. Right. So this is. You guys are in on this together. And this whole web of lies that starts getting spun is just putting Chloe in a no win position. And the police were also doing a very bad job of Helping her clarify this. People who didn't even know all the details of the kidnapping were just way too eager to blame her. So Chloe decided that she was going to start doing interviews herself, to speak her truth. And that's when she starts doing Piers Morgan. I hate you, botch right there, Dr. Phil. I hate you, botch. 60 Minutes Australia. I also hate that guy as well. But all of those. That whole press tour of the men

[Morgan Absher]

that I hate, I took down some quotes from when I was watching some of these. Okay, so these are coming from Liam Bartlett, which was the 60 Minutes interview. Quote, I struggle to work out why they chose you specifically. He basically implies multiple times, like, oh, they're kidnapping people these days. They're kidnapping, sir. Look up the stats for trafficking. You're an interviewer, you're a journalist. They're kidnapping people these days. He talks about ketamine, how it's a party drug. Have you ever had it before? There's this really crazy interaction with him where he starts asking Chloe about Phil, her agent, and he's like, have you said thank you to Phil? And Chloe's like, thank you for what? Yeah, and he's like, phil says he's really supported you through this. Phil says he's Even given you 3,000 pounds or euros, whatever the currency was.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

And she's like, he's given me under a thousand.

[Kayla Moore]

And she also says that's the least he can do. Which, to be fair, it was his job to make sure that this wasn't a scam, and he was kind of the reason she got kidnapped in the the first place.

[Morgan Absher]

So the reason she got kidnapped, literally, because he didn't vet the job.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

And Liam Barrett goes on to say. Oh, is that why you sacked him? Yeah, I sacked my agent because he got me kidnapped. Yeah, duh.

[Kayla Moore]

That guy is so fired. What are you talking about? It's. What? Yeah, it's so frustrating watching these interviews because you can tell and, like, listen, I. I do understand that journalists have to ask hard questions and have to get answers from their subjects because you want to make sure that people are telling the truth and you want to make sure that the story is, like, bulletproof. Like, I think back to, do you remember when that influencer scammer who pretended she had cancer was on the 60 Minutes Australia? And they have that one host with, like, the. Bob and I love her, but she's asking her questions, too, being like, belle, why can't you answer any of these questions? Like, what do you mean? Like, you say you have cancer. But we haven't been able. We've been looking into you. We can't find any of that. And, like, it is good that she's pressing this woman on these questions.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah.

[Kayla Moore]

She can't answer. And you do find that she's lying. But, like, they just approach this from the jump as you're lying. You're doing this for attention, and I'm gonna get you. Like, they're all just trying to get her. And that's what's so frustrating. Like, no one is listening to her with compassion at all.

[Morgan Absher]

No. Because she's also not responding. Ideally, she's not crying. They wanted her to appear distressed. When Liam is having her recount this story, he makes constant remarks about how calm she is while retelling this. You remember way too many details. He's almost implying, like, because you're remembering this so perfectly, you must be lying.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

How do you remember this so well?

[Kayla Moore]

That idea of the perfect victim, which is so sad that, like, women, you have to cry a certain way, you have to grieve a certain way. You are not allowed to live your life after tragedy because any evidence that you're having fun after tragedy occurs is proof that, like, it didn't affect you and you're a bad person. And it's. It's so sad to watch it happen in real time in these.

[Morgan Absher]

I know. And I have a clip that I want you guys to see, too. And it's coming from an interview on this morning, happening years down the line. And this interviewer asks a really good question about do you feel like you were in shock? And Chloe's response is something I feel like we should hear.

[Kayla Moore]

None of us have been kidnapped, dear.

[Vanessa Richardson]

All right.

[Kayla Moore]

Nobody knows how you're going to react. And when you were given the interviews, you were quite matter of fact. There wasn't a lot of emotion there.

[Morgan Absher]

But is that how you dealt with. And do you think back then you

[Kayla Moore]

were in a lot of shock when you were given these interviews?

[Vanessa Richardson]

I was. I feel like I was in defense mode. I was just answering questions about what happened and just being as factual as possible to tell what happened. And people didn't like that. Like, they expected me to be crying, but I just don't cry in public. I don't like it. I hate it.

[Morgan Absher]

And there's a quote I took down from Chloe, too, that says, quote. Honestly, the media affected me long term more than the actual kidnapping itself, because that's how horrendous it was.

[Kayla Moore]

Isn't that I feel like Denise Huskins said something similar when we talked to her of like, yeah, being kidnapped was horrible and the worst thing I've ever gone through. And then talking to the police was somehow worse. Well, I'm not sure, like, being grilled.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah.

[Kayla Moore]

Afterwards.

[Morgan Absher]

She did say that when we interviewed her. And you guys, if you really want to just kind of understand someone's feelings of going through something as horrible as this and coming out the other side not being believed, listen to the interview we did with Denise Huskins. Yeah, it is just wow. Like, imagine having something like this happen and no matter who you tell, they don't believe you. They're literally combative with you.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

And you're just trying to like, get someone to understand.

[Kayla Moore]

Just trying to be believed. This episode is brought to you by Minky Couture.

[Morgan Absher]

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[Kayla Moore]

I mean, you can tell how much I love the blankets already. They have their famous hugs blanket that literally feels like it's hugging you back after a long day. I love to just wrap myself up in it. It's truly the best.

[Morgan Absher]

It's like being wrapped in a cloud. And it's not overly heavy. It really is the perfect weight and the softest fabric.

[Kayla Moore]

So soft.

[Morgan Absher]

Anytime I have it on me, I just want to. Like anytime I have it on, I just want to pet myself.

[Kayla Moore]

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[Morgan Absher]

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[Kayla Moore]

I have used Instacart for a long time now, especially, you know, being a new mom, I have very limited time to actually go to the grocery store, which makes Instacart perfect. A few weeks ago for Memorial Day, we actually had people over and I had nothing prepared. So it was great to be able to use Instacart to actually get everything in time for people coming over.

[Morgan Absher]

Save the day. You can have someone go pick up your stuff while you're panic cleaning the house.

[Kayla Moore]

Exactly. Instacart brings convenience, quality and ease right to your door so you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app now and get groceries just how you like. So the trial began on February 7, 2018, in Milan. Lucas was facing charges of kidnapping for the purpose of extortion. The prosecution had a ton of evidence to present, like the disturbing emails from Lucas's computer, the ketamine and Chloe's system. The surveillance videos of him with Chloe during the time in captivity. There were receipts showing that he rented the fake studio and the farmhouse. There was not going to be any way that Lukas could deny.

[Morgan Absher]

No. They had the mask purchases, as well as a phone call he made to his mom while in jail, telling his mom, hey, mom, can you delete my emails? My password for the computer, Is it a bad word? Is that a bad word?

[Kayla Moore]

I think it's a worse word.

[Morgan Absher]

In the UK, the password was, like, twat. It was twat, twat1, twat, twat1. Like, hey, mom, delete the emails, twat, twat1. And then clear the recycling bin. And then tell Michelle to dispose of the car.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah, dispose of the car.

[Morgan Absher]

Come on. They had all the evidence against him, and Lucas didn't really deny it. When the defense's turn came, Lukas had come up with a new story to explain why he kidnapped Chloe. Earlier, he had said that he had leukemia and joined the Black Death to pay for his treatment. Obviously, he couldn't prove that. After that, he changed his story to say that the Romanian criminals with the Black Death were the ones who kidnapped Chloe and that he was the hero who stepped in to get her released. But then when the trial started, he changed his entire defense again. Now, he claimed that he and Chloe had planned a staged kidnapping together to boost her career. He admitted that the Black Death was completely made up. He said that he had fallen in love with Chloe and was willing to do anything for her. Lukas claimed their plot was inspired by the movie by any means, in which a minor Celebrity stages, her own kidnapping to boost her brand. But he was essentially just modeling his defense after what the British tabloids were already saying. Luckily, the court wasn't impressed. On June 11, 2018, 11 months after Chloe's kidnapping, Lukas was found guilty of kidnapping and drugging her. He was sentenced to 16 years and nine months in prison. But for Chloe, the most important part of the trial was, was vindication. She actually made a short statement following the verdict which said, quote, I'm very happy with the outcome. I want to thank the court and all those who believed in what I said, from the staff to the police investigators, up to the prosecutor. Now I want to be with my family. End quote.

[Kayla Moore]

Lucas's brother Michel tried to fight extradition to Italy by claiming that he had a baby on the way and by repeating his brother's hoax accusations. But the judge was not moved. He was extradited on June 22, 2018, less than two weeks after Lucas's conviction. In 2019, Michel was convicted of kidnapping for the purpose of extortion and received a 16 year sentence. And that was not the end of the story. Both ERBA brothers appealed their sentences. The appellate court downgraded Michel's conviction by removing the extortion elements, which meant that his sentence dropped to just five years and eight months. Months with credit for good behavior. And he ended up being released quietly in 2022. When the media tracked him down post release, he was living in Poland with his mother, working as a truck driver while trying to move back to England. Lucas also had his sentence reduced on appeal because the judge ruled that he acted, quote, out of love in the way he released Chloe. I do not understand. What I do not understand. Someone please help me understand that he

[Morgan Absher]

acted out of love.

[Kayla Moore]

Out of love.

[Morgan Absher]

There's no history of them having chatted before this.

[Kayla Moore]

Well, the. What is upsetting about that too is because it makes it seem like you can commit any horrible crime, but if you change your mind and let someone go or whatever, it could be seen as out of love in your sentence can be reduced. So you could kidnap someone and drug them, but if you feel bad after six days and let them go, like your sentence will be reduced cuz you acted out of that doesn't make any sense.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Morgan Absher]

And it also feels like it could open a can of worms for others,

[Kayla Moore]

like it sets a bad precedent that so his sentence went down to 12 years in one month. And with time off for good behavior, there's a chance that he could be out very soon. As for Chloe, she will always carry the trauma of her kidnapping. But ironically, being wrongly accused of staging a publicity stunt got her more publicity than the kidnapping itself. In 2018, at the age of just 21, she appeared on the reality competition show Celebrity Big Brother in the uk.

[Morgan Absher]

And a lot of people had problems with that.

[Kayla Moore]

Of course they did.

[Morgan Absher]

Again, people were criticizing her for going back to work.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

Modeling after her kidnapping, it's like she still has bills. She has a child.

[Kayla Moore]

A child. I know. It's the idea of the perfect victim. Like you're not allowed to do anything that suggests you're enjoying your life at all, or else it is seen as you being a bad person.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. And she says going on Big Brother was just again, in hopes that people would, like, see her and know that she was telling the truth. She just wanted to get her story out there and, like, be believed for once.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kayla Moore]

And that's why she also published a memoir called Kidnap that same year, which became the basis for a BBC series of the same name in 2024. And in 2025, Chloe herself appeared in a three part BBC docu series called Chloe Ailing My Unbelievable Kidnapping. She was ready to revisit the parts of her own story that she still hadn't resolved. She was ready to speak about her experience in her own words. Chloe said participating in the docu series was healing for her and helped her understand her past. But she'll never be the same outgoing, gregarious person that she was before the kidnapping. She now lives in a rural, mountainous part of Wales and she enjoys spending time alone and in nature, riding horses. Like you, Morgan, like me, her life is very peaceful. She's very grateful. But she thinks her life would have taken a very different path if she had never been kidnapped.

[Morgan Absher]

Something interesting that came out of filming the latest docu series, though, is that Chloe got some pretty life changing news. Cameras captured her receiving a diagnosis that helped explain why she spent her whole life feeling misunderstood and why she had difficulty expressing her emotions, and likely why she didn't have the reaction TV cameras and press were expecting from a victim. It turns out Chloe was diagnosed with autism. And something I found in One of the YouTube comments related to interviews that she did was, quote, I'm a clinical specialist occupational therapist and I'm qualified to assess and diagnose autism. After about 10 minutes of watching this documentary, I knew Chloe was autistic. Like many autistic girls and women, she went undiagnosed for decades, in part because her symptoms weren't identical to how autism usually shows up in men. According to UCLA, up to 80% of autistic women are undiagnosed at the age of 18. And boys are 10 times more likely than girls to be referred for an autism diagnosis. I myself fall into that. Not diagnosed with autism until my late 30s because of the podcast. I do two hot takes and people saying, I'm different with everyone, and I react oddly. And I realized I was masking. Which Chloe grew up constantly doing. And she talks about this in interviews. She's like, I was responding by smirking because I was just trying to tell things, matter of fact. And I didn't understand the nuance.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Absher]

And it explains so much of why she responded in the way she did during all of the interview and press.

[Kayla Moore]

Yeah, she's just trying to get the story out. And everyone's accusing her of being so emotionless. And she's like, I'm trying to tell you the story.

[Morgan Absher]

Like, I'm just trying to state it as factually as I can.

[Kayla Moore]

Yes, yes.

[Morgan Absher]

Chloe's story is really a reminder that there is no normal response to trauma. Every brain is unique. We can't judge the facts of any case based on how an alleged victim expresses their feelings. And we can't abandon victims in our search for the truth. Deborah Turkheimer, the author of the book why We Doubt Accusers and Protect Abusers, highlights what she calls the care gap between how we care for victims and how we care for the perpetrators. According to Debra, a lot of the ways we talk about crime as a society leaves victims feeling like their pain matters less than their abuser's pain. Debra says one of the things we can do without impeding on anybody's rights is talk about three things in response to any allegation of abuse. Those three things are it happened, it was wrong. It matters. Most of the time. If people start debating it happened, they spend all their time on that and never move on to the other two parts. It was wrong. It matters. And that might actually be what a survivor needs to hear from a friend or even a stranger on the Internet. And if that's something you need to hear right now, you can call the National Sexual assault hotline at 800-656-HOPE. Or you can text HOPE to 64673 or you can visit rainn.org hotline for a live chat option.

[Kayla Moore]

And with that, let's highlight the missing person this week. This week, we are highlighting the case of Abby Lynn Patterson. Patterson was last seen on Tuesday, September 5, 2017. Around 11:30 in the morning, she left her home on East 9th street in Lumberton, North Carolina, and was seen getting into a brown Buick. Patterson has not been seen since and has not had any contact with family or friends. She was last seen wearing brown shorts and a white shirt. And at the time of her disappearance, she was described as having brown eyes, weighing around 140 pounds with white skin, brown hair, 5 foot 7, and has a tattoo of a bird on her shoulder and a birthmark on the back of her right thigh. She was born on February 15, 1997. Anyone with information regarding the whereabouts of Abby Lynn Patterson is asked to call the FBI Charlotte's field office at 704-672-6100 or the Lumberton Police Department at 910-671-3845. You may also contact your local FBI office or the nearest American Embassy or contact consulate. And that is all we have for this week's episode of Clues. And now we really turn it over to you guys. I cannot wait to read through your thoughts, your feelings, everything about this case.

[Morgan Absher]

Yeah. Has anything changed for you? Did you learn something new? I mean, what did you think of the clips you saw? Because I lost my mind over them.

[Kayla Moore]

Am I alone in hating Piers Morgan? Let me know. Am I the only one?

[Morgan Absher]

I don't think so. At Crime House, we really value your support. So again, share all your thoughts on social media. Remember to rate, review, follow and subscribe. Subscribe to Clues to help others discover our show. And don't forget, for early ad free access, subscribe to crime house [e-mail] or if you listen on Apple podcasts, tap try free at the top of the Clues page.

[Kayla Moore]

All right, that's all we have. We'll see you next week. Bye, guys.

[Vanessa Richardson]

Bye.

[Kayla Moore]

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[Morgan Absher]

Okay, why is the donation bag cuter

[Kayla Moore]

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