MURDERED: Kim Wall

Summary

Clues Podcast Episode Summary: "MURDERED: Kim Wall"

Release Date: August 13, 2025
Hosts: Morgan Absher and Kaylin Moore
Produced by: Crime House, Powered by PAVE Studios

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Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "MURDERED: Kim Wall," hosts Morgan Absher and Kaylin Moore delve into the tragic and perplexing case of Swedish journalist Kim Wall. This episode meticulously unpacks the sequence of events leading to Kim's disappearance, the subsequent investigation, and the chilling revelations about her murderer, Peter Madsen. Throughout the episode, the hosts provide a detailed forensic analysis, uncovering hidden details and scrutinizing overlooked evidence that ultimately cracked the case wide open.

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Background: Who Was Kim Wall?

Kim Wall was an accomplished and fearless journalist born in 1987 in Sweden. Raised in a family of journalists, her passion for reporting was evident from a young age. By the time she was 26, Kim had already made significant strides in her career, writing for prestigious publications and undertaking daring assignments—from North Korea to the Marshall Islands.

Kaylin Moore highlights Kim's dedication:

"[Kim] was so passionate and curious about the world. She wanted to share the stories of marginalized communities, going to the ends of the earth to tell their tales."
(06:54)

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The Fateful Meeting with Peter Madsen

In August 2017, Kim Wall received a promising opportunity to interview Peter Madsen, a Danish inventor described as the “Danish Elon Musk.” Madsen invited Kim aboard his personal submarine, the Nautilus, for an exclusive interview and a submarine ride.

Kim's enthusiasm was palpable as she prepared for the trip:

"I'm about to move for a new journalism opportunity... But this story is huge access for Kim and she doesn't want to just let this opportunity go."
(01:29)

Despite concerns about timing, Kim decided to embark on the submarine ride alone, trusting her partner, Ul, to host their going-away party.

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Disappearance and Initial Investigation

On August 10, 2017, Kim boarded the Nautilus for what was supposed to be a short excursion around Copenhagen harbor. Shortly after, communication with Kim ceased, and Ul became alarmed when she failed to return.

Morgan Absher narrates the growing concern:

"He was really worried. Kim was only supposed to be gone for like an hour, maybe two, but she didn't come back."
(10:30 AM)

The Danish Coast Guard launched an extensive search, utilizing helicopters, boats, and even cadaver dogs, but Kim remained missing.

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Peter Madsen's Inconsistent Stories

Peter Madsen initially reported a mechanical failure causing the Nautilus to take on water, leading to its sinking. He claimed to have dropped Kim off safely onshore before the submarine sank.

Kaylin Moore expresses suspicion:

"It sounds a little fishy. This is 2017, modern times. We have cell phones. There was no call for help, no Mayday."
(24:03)

However, surveillance footage revealed no evidence of Kim being dropped off, contradicting Madsen’s account. Madsen's demeanor remained nonchalant, even performing a public thumbs-up gesture while the submarine was sinking.

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Discovery of Kim Wall's Remains

Eleven days after her disappearance, a cyclist discovered Kim's dismembered torso on Amar Island's southern coastline. Further remains, including her head and legs, were found later, accompanied by metal pieces and a handsaw, indicating a deliberate and gruesome disposal of her body.

Morgan Absher underscores the horror:

"She had been stabbed 15 times, mostly in the groin. Which makes Peter's story even more difficult to believe."
(41:22)

Autopsies revealed no signs of head injury, directly refuting Madsen’s initial claim.

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Unraveling Peter Madsen's True Nature

Investigations into Peter Madsen unveiled a deeply disturbing character. Former colleagues and volunteers described his erratic behavior, violent temper, and an obsession with Nazi memorabilia. Moreover, evidence surfaced showing his fascination with snuff films—videos depicting real-life torture and murder.

Kaylin Moore reflects on Madsen's psychology:

"He was looking for the darkest stuff you could find, the darkest on the Internet."
(53:04)

Text messages with a former partner revealed chilling threats and detailed plans resembling the murder of Kim Wall.

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The Trial and Conviction

In March 2018, Peter Madsen stood trial in a Danish court with a small jury panel designed to ensure impartiality. Throughout the trial, Madsen presented varying, contradictory versions of events, each failing to align with the physical evidence and psychological assessments labeling him as a pathological liar with psychopathic traits.

Kaylin Moore critiques Madsen’s courtroom demeanor:

"He talks about himself as if he's not human, detached from the reality of his actions."
(62:14)

On April 25, 2018, the judge delivered a verdict:

"Peter Madsen was found guilty of premeditated murder, aggravated sexual assault, and desecration of a corpse."
(70:14)

He was sentenced to life in prison, marking the culmination of a harrowing case that exposed the depths of deceit and brutality behind his façade.

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Aftermath and Legacy

Post-trial, Peter Madsen attempted a daring prison escape but was swiftly recaptured, resulting in an additional 21 months added to his sentence. Meanwhile, Kim Wall's family established the Kim Wall Memorial Fund to honor her legacy by supporting female and non-binary journalists committed to telling untold stories.

Morgan Absher emphasizes Kim's enduring impact:

"The person that matters in this story is Kim Wall. The life she would have had making such a huge difference out there."
(71:45)

The hosts encourage listeners to engage with Kim's writings and support initiatives that continue her mission of empathy and understanding.

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Conclusion

The "MURDERED: Kim Wall" episode of Clues serves as a poignant reminder of the fragility of life and the depths of human depravity. Through meticulous storytelling and forensic analysis, Morgan Absher and Kaylin Moore honor Kim Wall's memory while unraveling the complexities of her tragic demise. This episode not only sheds light on a heinous crime but also celebrates the indomitable spirit of a journalist dedicated to unveiling the world's hidden truths.

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Notable Quotes:

• "I'm still alive by the way but going down now. I love you!!!"
  Ul to Kim
  (12:00)

• "You have to divide it up into something smaller, horrible."
  Peter Madsen
  (62:14)

• "Kim had spent so long in the water by this point that a lot of that crucial forensic evidence had been destroyed by the elements."
  Kaylin Moore
  (42:22)

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Resources for Further Exploration:

• Kim Wall Memorial Fund: gofundme.com/rememberingkimwall
• Remembrance and Tributes: rememberingkimwall.com
• Book: "A Silenced: The Life of Journalist Kim Wall"

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For more compelling true crime stories and in-depth analyses, subscribe to Clues on YouTube or your preferred podcast platform. Follow us on Instagram @CluesPodcast and on YouTube @CluesPod for updates and exclusive content.

Transcript

[Kaylin Moore]

Foreign.

[Morgan Absher]

This is Crime House.

[Kaylin Moore]

Like it goes without saying, but this is so intentional.

[Kim Wall]

No signs of a head injury. None.

[Kaylin Moore]

What happened to a submarine? For real? And where is Kim?

[Morgan Absher]

Foreign.

[Kim Wall]

Hi guys. Welcome back to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore some of the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.

[Kaylin Moore]

I'm Kaylin Moore and I'm going to be the one digging deeper into the timelines, the backstories and the court files for these cases.

[Kim Wall]

And I'm your Internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I am diving into everything I can find online from Reddit forums to all old ancient YouTube videos which will come up today. We get into it all at Crime House.

[Kaylin Moore]

We value your support, so please share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review and follow clues to help others discover the show. And for bonus episodes, early access and ad free listening, join our Crime House plus community on Apple Podcasts. Okay, today we are talking about a case that is as tragic as it is bizarre. It's the murder of Kim Wall. Now, Kim was a Swedish journalist who went to interview an eccentric Danish inventor named Peter Madsen aboard his submarine and she never came home.

[Kim Wall]

Kim was about to move for a new journalism opportunity. She had a loving partner and family. So when Peter said he dropped her off on shore and she didn't come home, alarm bells were ringing. More on the case and the clues that defined it after this quick break.

[Unknown]

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[Kim Wall]

Before we get into today's episode We've been sitting here talking about magicians. Magicians. Why am I saying that? Weird magicians and mentalists this morning.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yes.

[Kim Wall]

If anyone out there, anyone a part of the Cluminati, knows a magician. I need a magician for my wedding in September.

[Kaylin Moore]

You're gonna hire a magician.

[Kim Wall]

We want, like, a strolling magician.

[Kaylin Moore]

Oh, that's such a good idea. I love that.

[Kim Wall]

I've already got my tarot card reader, so we're set there. But I need a good magician. And, like, I've reached out to three so far that are in Minnesota and just not, like, getting super positive results. I saw this one on TikTok from the UK who he, like, pickpockets people and then has, like, this. What do you call those food things? You know, the silver trays that you pull the cap off?

[Kaylin Moore]

Oh, yeah. The, like, serving platters.

[Kim Wall]

Yes. So he'll, like, pickpocket stuff from people, like, they don't notice. And then all of a sudden, he'll do this trick where, like, there's fire on the tray and he pulls it off. And then you're like, that's my wallet.

[Kaylin Moore]

Why is it in there?

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. And literally. And then he opens it again after the fire's been in there and everyone's watches and stuff is inside.

[Kaylin Moore]

That's very cool.

[Kim Wall]

But he's in the uk.

[Kaylin Moore]

Would you fly him out?

[Kim Wall]

I mean, for the right price? Yeah, maybe.

[Kaylin Moore]

So my sibling was gonna hire a magician for their birthday. So cool. Reached out to this woman, I think, like, in Orange County, Louisiana area. And the woman quoted this, like, insane price back. And my sibling was like, why is it so much to get a magician? Turns out she was the magician that's featured in the Chapel Roan music video for Red Wine Supernova. And she even. She wrote this, like, apparently very nice letter or note back to my sibling. Like, hey, so, like, my price did go up because, like, I've been getting a lot of people contacting me, but.

[Kim Wall]

Like, like, yeah, geez, I have a tight budget for my magician, so, yeah, if you know someone, or maybe you are someone. If you are someone, that'd be cool. Send me a trick and then we'll go from there.

[Kaylin Moore]

What are we thinking right now? Read our minds.

[Kim Wall]

But without further ado, let's get into today's case. Just a warning before we begin this one. This case is heavy, you guys. It involves conversations of sexual assault and other very graphic details that could be difficult for some viewers. So please, please choose to listen or watch with care.

[Kaylin Moore]

And also for those of you that are watching on YouTube, you're going to see some photos that help paint a picture of this case. Nothing too gory, but if you are listening, you can find those same photos on our social media. And that's at Clues podcast on Instagram. The case Today starts on August 10, 2017, not that long ago, when Danish journalist Kim Wall finally hears back from an elusive inventor that she's been trying to track down for a while now named Peter Madsen. Now, Peter is kind of described as this Danish Elon Musk type.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, he gives that energy.

[Kaylin Moore]

He kind of is giving those, like, strange mad inventor vibes. And so he has his own rocket and submarine company. And Kim, being a journalist, has been following this story for a while and she has been waiting for the day when she can finally interview him because he's like, kind of hard to get an interview with. And it turns out August 10th is going to be that day. One day earlier. Peter had postponed the upcoming test launch of his brand new rocket due to some financial difficulties he was having. But he was really eager to keep up the publicity for this operation. So he did more than just agree to this interview with Kim. He actually invited Kim to take a ride with him on his own personal submarine that he had built. It's called the Nautilus. And they were going to take a ride that night so she could interview him with there on the submarine. Now just a little bit more on Kim and kind of like why this was such a big deal for her. So Kim really wanted to be a reporter from the day she was born in 1987. Her mom, Ingrid, and her father Joachim, were both journalists too. It was kind of like in the blood of the family. And their work became a regular part of Kim's life when she was growing up in Sweden and she had gone to all these European countries by the time she was one. So every morning the family would read up to seven daily newspapers together. And anytime the TV was on or the radio was on, it was always tuned to some news channel.

[Kim Wall]

They were always talking journalism. And what I love is hearing her parents describe, like they would really go through these articles and be like, this is a good article because of this. Like, it was just like ingrained so early to have that curiosity about these.

[Kaylin Moore]

Articles and also the media literacy that comes with that when you're teaching your kids what, like, good sources are, is amazing. A lot of people don't get that these days. So Even at just 7 years old, Kim was obsessed with learning everything she possibly could about the world. And also sharing that knowledge with others. By the time she graduated from high school, Kim knew that she was going to follow in her parents footsteps and specifically she wanted to continue traveling the world learning about different people, cultures and their social movements so that she could help tell their stories. So she goes and she studies international relations at the London School of Economics and then she gets a master's in journalism from Columbia University in New York in 2013 when she's 26 years old. And even while she was still in school, Kim was just so impressive because she was still writing for all these huge news publications at the time. She went to North Korea while she was still in college and she wrote an article for the Atlantic about the dictatorship's attempt to build a world class ski resort. She also visited Sri Lanka where she interviewed victims and veterans of the country's 26 year long civil war. She, she even hitched her ride on a small cargo ship to a tiny Pacific island nation called Marshall Islands, where the United States tested atomic bombs in the 1950s, just so that she could interview residents about health problems that they suffered from radioactive fallout.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, I don't think we can state this enough. Like Kim is so smart. Like so, so, so smart.

[Kaylin Moore]

Also fearless, fearless. Going to North Korea, going to like a radioactive island to actually talk to the victims.

[Kim Wall]

She really, really, really wanted to highlight marginalized communities. And like she would go to the ends of the earth to do that.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, she was just not afraid of anything, it really seemed like. And everyone she met at this time, from her professors to her fellow reporters, people that she interviewed, they all really admired her passion and her curiosity about the world. So By March of 2017, she's kind of getting ready to enter this new phase of her life. She starts dating this guy Ule. They are dating for several months and things get pretty serious. And the two of them are sharing an apartment together in this really tragic trendy part of Copenhagen. It's a former industrial area along the Copenhagen harbor that was converted into artist lofts and creative office spaces. It's like really, really trendy and cool.

[Kim Wall]

I've actually been there. It's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. There's so many outdoor like food halls and I did this sauna experience where you go in like a sauna and then like a hot tub along the harbor and it's a really, really cool area.

[Kaylin Moore]

No, that sounds really, really awesome. It's actually while Kim is in this very cool neighborhood that she stumbles upon this community that happens to be living there. And they're all amateur rocket enthusiasts. And they're there operating out of some rented warehouses nearby called Rocket Madsen Space Lab, or rmsl. And they're trying to develop this open source, crowdfunded Danish space program. And that is really something that like kind of sets off a bell in Kim's head. She's like, ooh, that's kind of strange and different and weird. Like, I want to know what's going on. I want to like write a story about you guys. So she starts interviewing members of this group and that's how she hears about the eccentric inventor kind of at the center of all this, Peter Madsen. And really that's how the whole meeting that she was about to take on the submarine came to be. But the timing of this interview on August 10 isn't really great for Kim. She and her partner UL were planning to move to Beijing in about a week's time. Kim wanted to relocate there in order to do this in depth reporting on the people and social movements behind China's powerhouse economy. And on the day that Madsen invites her on board the Nautilus, she and Ule were already setting up a going away party in their apartment. But this story is huge access for Kim and she doesn't want to just let this opportunity go. So she talks to Ul about it and she decides that he is going to host the party alone while she goes out on the Nautilus for just a quick ride around the Copenhagen harbor. And while she's definitely a little bit nervous about going for her first ever submarine ride, Kim figures that she would probably be back before the party was over. And it would be a very cool story to share with everyone that's at the party. So around 7pm on August 10, she walks over to Matzin's lab where the Nautilus was docked. It's just a few minutes walk from her apartment and in fact, U and some of their guests can literally see Kim and Peter together on the deck of his submarine as it starts sailing out into the harbor. They're kind of like watching it go.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, they're like up top on like that hatch area of the submarine, like waving as people take pictures.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, yeah. It's like a very cool moment for everyone.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, proper send off.

[Kaylin Moore]

They were going to be the only two people on board the submarine that night. And then just after 8pm, UL gets a text from Kim indicating that things are going pretty well. The text reads, and it's a little chilling in hindsight, but it does read, quote, I'm still alive by the way but going down now. I love you with like seven exclamation points. He brought coffee and cookies though. That was the last communication that anyone would have with Kim.

[Kim Wall]

One of this week's partners is zocdoc. As I get older, there's more things I have to do on my own. My mom can't call my dentist or book my doctor's appointments and I know I need to get in. I know I need a regular checkup. And you know who makes it easy? Zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. I've been using ZocDoc since 2015, long before any of my podcasts. And I've found the most amazing providers from my gynecologist to a GI specialist specialist.

[Kaylin Moore]

And finding specialists is unnecessarily hard to.

[Kim Wall]

Do on your own.

[Kaylin Moore]

Going through insurance, spending hours on the website, just trying to find one doctor that's good at GI stuff. It's ridiculous.

[Kim Wall]

And you can see the reviews before you book. You're getting the inside scoop on these doctors, their vibe, their bedside manner. If they're gonna believe you when you do go there with a problem, you get it all on zocdoc.

[Kaylin Moore]

And appointments that are made through zocdoc also happen really fast. You're not waiting three months to see one of these doctors. They're typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. More often than not, you can actually even get same day appointments.

[Kim Wall]

So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com clues to find an instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Z O c d o c.com clues zocdoc.com clues One of this week's partners is Jenny Bird.

[Kaylin Moore]

You know when you put something on and it starts to become part of your permanent rotation of jewelry? That's how I've been feeling about some of the pieces that I've gotten from Jenny Bird recently. I don't know if you can see Morgan. I'm wearing one of my anklets.

[Kim Wall]

The pearls on that are beautiful.

[Kaylin Moore]

Lucille anklet but it's got shells and it's got pearls and it's just so summery and dainty. I've been wearing it literally every day.

[Kim Wall]

It's beautiful. The monogram necklace I got has been my daily wear. I love how water resistant it is because I'm lazy and I don't like taking off jewelry when I shower. So it's perfect. It doesn't tarnish. It looks really cute. I got a cute little J to represent Justin.

[Kaylin Moore]

Aw, that's sweet.

[Kim Wall]

I'm obsessed. I also got my friend Alejandra the Gemini necklace for her birthday. Jenny Bird is just such a thoughtful gift for someone, and it's these pieces that people are going to actually love because they're trendy and they're going to have for years to come.

[Kaylin Moore]

And they're timeless, too. Like right now, I'm also wearing this purse pearl bracelet that I got and I feel like pearls never go out of style, so I'll have it forever.

[Kim Wall]

No, they'll never go to style. So if you're ready to try it for yourself, you can get 20 off your first order with Jenny Bird by visiting jenny-bird.com and using code clues at checkout. One of this week's partners is Function Health. We're all trying to look after our health in the best way we can, which means you might be trying trends you've heard of and hopping on bandwagons that maybe your body shouldn't. One of them is intermittent fasting. If you're a woman and you have hormones, sometimes intermittent fasting can actually have the opposite effect on your body, which is where function health comes in. You can find out exactly where your hormones are at and make sure you're doing what's best for your body.

[Kaylin Moore]

And there are so many things that can affect your hormones. You have your monthly fluctuations, but also things like fasting, lack of sleep. I feel like there's a million things that stress, stress.

[Kim Wall]

I've got pcos. I'm all over the place normally.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, your hormones are going to be at a different level and they affect a lot of things in your body. One of the big things is your energy level is affected by your hormones. So you want to make sure that you're getting a full picture when you go to the doctor.

[Kim Wall]

So if you're thinking about trying something new for your body, consider testing your levels to help make sure your hormones are in check and your metabolism is strong so you create the right plan for your body.

[Kaylin Moore]

You can learn more about your hormones and join using our link. The first thousand to do so get a 100 credit towards their membership. Visit www.functionhealth.com clues and use gift code CLUES100@signup to own your health.

[Kim Wall]

So let's get into a little bit about who this Peter Madsen character is. Peter was born in 1971, grew up in a small town south of Copenhagen. And as a young boy, he really became fascinated with rocket ships, space travel. Seems like it was kind of a way he bonded with his dad and he had this dream of designing his own one day. So he joined a few clubs as a teenager and really just started to get into the intricacies of, like, how these machines worked. And after finishing high school, he went on to study a bunch of different skills that would help him pursue this goal of his. He learned things like welding, refrigeration, technology, engineering, but he never actually earned a degree or any formal certification in engineering.

[Kaylin Moore]

It really is like the guy from Oceangate, because I don't think he had any sort of formal degree in anything that he was pursuing either.

[Kim Wall]

So wild to me. In the early 2000s, he built three submarines in his workshop at the port of Copenhagen. One, as we've mentioned, is the Nautilus, which was seemingly his, like, most prized possession. It's this 58 long and 6ft wide sub, making it the largest privately built submarine in the world at the time. And he actually lived on the Nautilus for a while. And as the word of all of these exploits and success of the submarines are getting out there, Peter decides to return his attention to another love of his rocket ships. And at this point, he joins forces with a local architect, fellow space enthusiast named Christian von Bensten. And together they create this independent spaceflight startup called Copenhagen Suborbitals, with the goal of actually sending Peter on a manned mission up to space. But in 2014, when Peter is 43 years old, there's actually a fallout between the two of them. And so with a bunch of his followers at this company, they quit and they start their own space flight startup, Rocket Mads and Space Lab, which, as you talked about, is who Kim started to meet and then got curious and started interviewing them.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, right.

[Kim Wall]

So Peter sets out on this super ambitious goal of launching his own rocket before Copenhagen Suborbitals can launch theirs. And so they work on this for years. And they finally schedule an important test launch for late August 2017, only it falls through. And maybe this is what pushes Peter to finally agree to that interview with Kim. Which brings us to August 10th, when Kim boards the Nautilus.

[Kaylin Moore]

It's interesting that it feels like a very specific type of personality is drawn to trying to launch your own rocket psychopath. So at around 10pm that night, Kim's partner UL starts to get kind of worried. Remember, this whole trip was not supposed to last very long. And now it's been two hours, it's dark Out. The party's winding down. He still hasn't heard anything from Kim. She was only in theory, going to be gone for like an hour, maybe two. And even though he's called her dozens of times, she's not answering her phone. So he walks down to Madsen's workshop to check there, but it's closed up for the night. And he notices because he can see kind of through the warehouse, he sees that the Nautilus is not back, so they must still be out in the water finally at around 2:30 in the morning. So hours go by. He calls the police and the Danish Coast Guard, and then he gets on his bike and really, not knowing what else to do, he just starts riding along the coastline to see if he can see the submarine in the water himself. So within two hours, the Coast Guard is fully on the case. They're searching up and down the Copenhagen harbor. They have helicopters out. They're on their boats by sunrise. There is still no sign of Kim. There's no sign of Peter. There's no sign of this submarine. And the story starts immediately, spreading all across Denmark. Ul as well as Kim's parents, Ingrid and Joachim are really worried sick about her. I mean, I can't even imagine the places your imagination just starts going to of like, did this sink in the water? Like, what could have happened?

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, this is like a homemade submarine. Yeah, anything could happen on this personal submersible.

[Kaylin Moore]

They call them P subs.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

Did a lot of digging on this community, which I'll get into. At around 10:30am After Kim has been missing for about 12 hours, they finally get a little bit of good news, though. They're told that the Nautilus has been found. And rescuers have talked to Madsen on the radio. And as they're talking to him, you know, like, they kind of start asking him, like, what's going on? Where are you? Do you need help? And Madsen gets on the radio and he's like, we're fine. And he doesn't say anything else beyond that. He just kind of lets them know that he's okay. And he's on his way back to the harbor after being missing for over 12 hours. And then just 30 minutes beyond that, a fishing boat spots the Nautilus and Coogee Bay, just south of Copenhagen. And they're watching it kind of rise to the top. Peter gets out, he kind of waves at everyone and he goes back down into the sub. And then they're watching it, like, kind of expecting it to come ashore so they can Start talking to him. But it starts sinking. Like, it just starts going back down in the water, and then it kind of goes below the surface, and then they don't see it anymore. And after that, Madsen kind of emerges from the hatch on top of the sub again. And this time he leaps into the water like he's trying to jump ship, like he knows it's sinking. Nobody else gets off the Nautilus before it fully sinks below the surface. And Madsen ends up swimming to a fishing boat, which picks him up and brings him to the shore, which is four miles away. As they arrive on the dock, there's already this big crowd of reporters waiting. And they ask how Madsen's doing. They all watched him basically just jump ship because his submarine was sinking. And he gives them a thumbs up.

[Kim Wall]

He acts so nonchalant, like, very strange. All good? Yeah, we're gonna put a clip in for you guys. So you can just see his little thumbs up like it is. No alarm bells, no red flag.

[Kaylin Moore]

No.

[Kim Wall]

No, there's no fire. My. My ship didn't just sink.

[Kaylin Moore]

Like, he gives him a thumbs up. He does admit he's kind of upset that the submarine sank, but that's it.

[Kim Wall]

What about the person that was supposed to be on that sub with you?

[Kaylin Moore]

He doesn't say anything about her. He doesn't say anything else. Doesn't even mention that Kim was on the submarine with him. Thumbs up. Guess it's a bummer that it sank. But as he's there talking to reporters, Kim's loved ones are staring at him off to the side, and they're terrified, and they're outraged because where is Kim? And why doesn't Peter seem to be worried about her at all? At this point, the press actually hadn't been informed that Kim was on the submarine. So it's only Kim's family and the police that know. But the police have a lot of questions, obviously, for Peter, so they kind of whisk him away from the rescue boat and into police custody, where he gets taken down to the police station for questioning. And this is where he starts to tell police a little bit more about what happened. And it doesn't take much for him to start talking either. But he says that there was a mechanical failure once the Nautilus was out to sea. He said that the ballast tanks, these are tanks that fill with water so the submarine can submerge, and then they empty so that it can surface again. He said that those tanks had a pretty serious malfunction. But when he tried to Fix it. The Nautilus just started taking on all of this water. He didn't know what to do. It just started sinking. But he mentions here that even though all that happened and he had to jump ship, Kim is fine. And the police are like, what do you mean Kim's fine? He said that once the sub started having problems, he actually dropped her off along the coastline of Rev Saloun and then continued just on his own in the sub.

[Kim Wall]

It sounds a little fishy. This is 2017, modern times. We have cell phones. There was no call for help, no Mayday. Like, it's just feeling like a very convenient story for him.

[Kaylin Moore]

No. And this immediately doesn't make any sense to the police because they're like, what do you mean you dropped her off on the shore? She, in theory, would have her phone. People have been trying to contact her the entire night. We have not heard anything from her. She's not resurfaced. She hasn't tried to get. Get in touch with her family. So they send rescuers out into the ocean to try to find the submersible and, like, look for Kim. And police just start reviewing all of this surveillance footage that was taken from Ref Saloon where Madsen said he dropped her off. And obviously, I mean, I don't really have to tell you this, but there's no sign of her in any of that footage. Like, it's clear that she was not dropped off where he said she was.

[Kim Wall]

One thing I love about European countries, the CCTV footage, you guys are on it?

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. They film everything, and so there's no trace of her. And it's like, Peter didn't really think about that. And they're actually able to find that the last time Kim used her phone was to send that text message to ule at 8pm the night before. So kind of in their minds, they're thinking that this is not looking very good. Which is why on August 12, Peter appears before a judge for a private hearing. And again, they ask him kind of the same questions. What happened to a submarine for real? And where is Kim? And in this setting, he starts telling them a completely different story than the one he. He told before, just a few hours earlier. This time, according to Peter, he admits, okay, you know, Kim wasn't actually dropped off on the shoreline, that. That part wasn't true. I will tell you what did happen. He says she was in an accident on the submarine and she died. This is a huge departure from the last story he told where she was alive and got off the submarine, dropped.

[Kim Wall]

Her off Safe onshore.

[Kaylin Moore]

And all of a sudden he's telling the story where something happened on the sub and she died. According to Madsen, he said that she was climbing up a ladder in between decks inside the submarine when all of a sudden, 150 pound access hatch came loose, swung open, and hit her square in the head. He said that he came back to where she was and just found her lying on the floor of the submarine in a pool of her own blood. And this is where things in his story start to get very strange. He says that when he realized that she was dead, he panicked and that caused him to go into a really deep depressive state. So the only thing he could think to do while in that deep depressive state was go to the bedroom on the Nautilus and sleep for several hours. Then he woke up and he starts freaking out again. He's still not in his right mind. So he says that he brought the Nautilus up to the surface, opened the top hatch, and he pulled Kim's body out and into the ocean so that he could personally bury her at sea.

[Kim Wall]

That's not your choice to make. No, like bury her at sea. You.

[Kaylin Moore]

You don't get to just decide what you do with the remains of another person that goes to her family in any situation, no matter how badly you're freaking out.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, people, it never ceases to amaze me. People just never call 911 or the emergency services in their location. Like, come on, guys.

[Kaylin Moore]

Well, th. This story, I mean, when Kim's family hears this story, they're absolutely devastated. I mean, just a few hours ago, they thought that maybe their daughter was dropped off on the shore, was totally fine. And I can't imagine them having to listen to this guy tell this version of the story because one, he is describing in kind of horrifying detail how their daughter died and how he disposed of her body. And two, I mean, he's clearly a liar. He has already a track record of really not being honest about what happened. So who's to say that what he is saying happened now is even the real version of events? Because lots of parts of his story don't add up. No, if there was an accident on board, like you were saying, why wouldn't he just call for help? We found actually that the Nautilus, first of all, it wasn't in the middle of the ocean. It was in, like, just off the shore of Copenhagen. It was still within cell phone range of this major city, and it was in the middle of this popular shipping channel. All he would have had to do. If he was far enough down, he would have been able to radio on the internal, like, radio service that they had. Or he could just surface and call using his cell phone.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, I. I think, like to give you guys a idea of what this looks like too, we'll insert some pictures. But, like, this harbor is relatively small. It's also very, very busy with tour. If this would have happened around 8, 9pm when, you know, Kim last texted, there still would have been tourist boats and plenty of activity in the area. He could have just popped up and asked for help. Like, there's no excuse whether your phone was dead or whatever. Like, it's in a very busy, popular area. It's not huge, it's not vast. It's. You can see shore to shore.

[Kaylin Moore]

Help would have been on the way immediately. I mean, what did they say? It took like 30 minutes for the Coast Guard to get there once they called and told them what was going on. Like, you could have gotten someone out pretty fast. And instead he's telling this whole story about how he just knew he had to dispose of her body because she was dead and there was nothing he could do.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

And the police in this investigation are not dumb at all. They are, like, very with it. They know that this doesn't make any sense. And the police actually end up charging him after he tells this version of events with involuntary manslaughter for causing Kim's death. This allows them to keep him in custody while they continue to search for more evidence. They know that this is probably not the real version of events, but it's all that they can charge him with for now, based on what he has confessed to them. So this now means that they have to get down to the bottom of the bay and retrieve the Nautilus because that's where all of this evidence is going to be. And that is going to be a huge task because it's taken on a lot of water. It is like scrap metal now at the bottom of the ocean and. And it takes a couple days to do it. But on August 13, the police are able to recover this sunken submarine and they tow it to the shore for investigation.

[Kim Wall]

Which brings us to our first clue. The Nautilus. When police get the Nautilus to shore, they empty about 9,000 gallons of water out of it before they can even get inside.

[Kaylin Moore]

Which also, maybe it's worth saying here, like, this was not a very small submarine.

[Kim Wall]

This.

[Kaylin Moore]

This wasn't like the Titan submersible where you have to sit.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

And like, pee in a bucket, and, like, only five people can fit. This was, like, a submarine that he built. Yeah.

[Kim Wall]

It's big. It's long. I was really surprised by the pictures of it because of how people describe it when you listen to them. Like, for submarines, they use the word midget still to describe it. So this is like, a midget submarine. That's the category it's in. And so I'm envisioning just, like, a smaller sub. Like, you know, maybe two people fit, Right. No, it is long. I think I said, like, 58. 58ft. That's long. That's big.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Kim Wall]

So this was no easy task for investigators. Which we do have a new little thing on the botched board here. It's called a Sherlock moment. Thank you to whoever commented that on YouTube. And this might take.

[Kaylin Moore]

Because they're doing some cop tricks.

[Kim Wall]

They're doing some big tricks. They're excavating a submarine from the bottom.

[Kaylin Moore]

Of an ocean floor and just. Yeah, holding on to Peter because they know they could probably get him on more.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. That was a good tactic for someone who has the resources to potentially flee. Like, I appreciate that. So when they do finally get inside the Nautilus and start looking at what evidence could be there, they start to realize that the seawater has kind of washed away most of it. So they're not really sure what happened to Kim while she was on board.

[Kaylin Moore]

She's not even there, right?

[Kim Wall]

Not there.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Kim Wall]

But when they do examine the submarine's machinery, they find some very interesting details. There's actually nothing wrong with it. Nothing.

[Kaylin Moore]

I'm sure our audience could have guessed that.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. So remember back to when the ship that was watching Peter, they finally spotted him, and he first was, like, up top in the hatch, like, waving, and then he goes back down. So based on what investigators see on the Nautilus, they think that Peter actually went down back in to start letting in water.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Cause it started sinking after he went down for the first time.

[Kim Wall]

That's when it first started jumping out.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Kim Wall]

So this whole story of, like, his ballast tanks malfunctioning, that was all a total lie.

[Kaylin Moore]

He's like, oh, they just don't understand how submarines work. So I can just tell them whatever, and they'll just believe it.

[Kim Wall]

So he thought, but these investigators are a little smarter. They look at it and they go, no, no, no.

[Kaylin Moore]

This.

[Kim Wall]

This thing sunk because someone wanted it to sink. All of these hatches were open. It lined up with the description of what the rescue team said. And so his Story again isn't lining up. He deliberately sunk this submarine. So over the next several days, the police keep Peter in custody and rescuers are searching for the most important piece of the puzzle. Kim. They were scanning Copenhagen harbor and Coogee Bay with boats, helicopters. They even use specially trained cadaver dogs that are capable of smelling a body in the water from the deck of a boat.

[Kaylin Moore]

Incredible that they can do that.

[Kim Wall]

Another Sherlock moment. Like I had no idea idea that existed.

[Kaylin Moore]

Incredible. Detective Robo on behalf of a dog.

[Kim Wall]

And I think in an interview I read from someone who has worked really closely with the family to do another like documentary on this case. This wasn't a thing in Copenhagen at the time. They had to bring those dogs in. But since this, they're now training dogs specifically for Copenhagen.

[Kaylin Moore]

Interesting.

[Kim Wall]

So this was a feat to get these dogs there.

[Kaylin Moore]

I wonder where the dogs came from. Did they say, we do a really good job in the US of training these cadaver dogs.

[Kim Wall]

I mean this is just incredible. From the deck of a boat. I mean, I knew dogs could smell really well, but like that is that's going through water.

[Kaylin Moore]

I remember reading about this one dog who was able to find human remains from D day in France over 60 years after it happened or something like that. Like it was like parts per trillion that this dog was smelling versus like parts per million or billion which most cadaver dogs can smell. Just like incredible.

[Kim Wall]

My jaw is just dropped, you guys. If you're watching, I'm just sitting.

[Kaylin Moore]

I love dog so much.

[Kim Wall]

Just jaw dropped. But despite the effort from these dogs and all of the people involved in this search, the rescue parties don't find anything. Not until 11 days after Kim went missing do they get something. Which brings us to our second clue. One of this week's partners is Kachava. You always need to be prepared for whatever your day is going to throw at you. Which is why you need the proper nourishment to stay sharp and focused. August. Which is where Kachava comes in. Cachava's whole body meal shakes will keep your body and mind nourished all day and ready for anything.

[Kaylin Moore]

And it's so much more than just a protein shake. It has 25 grams of 100% plant based protein plus it also has 6 grams of fiber. There's also 85 plus superfoods, nutrients and plant based ingredients. There's a lot of good stuff in it.

[Kim Wall]

I am obsessed with this shake. The vanilla is by far my favorite flavor. But I've got people in my life that love the matcha and the chai and the. I cannot get enough of this shake. It's become my little nightly routine. I have my shake before I go to bed and Justin made me a protein shake the other day with some other powder and I literally couldn't, I couldn't drink it.

[Kaylin Moore]

A lot of other powders are really chalky.

[Kim Wall]

I'm like, I can never go back to anything else. Like, I love my Kachava shakes and.

[Kaylin Moore]

Now they have a new strawberry flavor, which is great because I've been craving a lot of cold, sweet things. One of my biggest cravings that I've been having. So I'm very excited to try this new flavor.

[Kim Wall]

My favorite part, there's no artificial flavors, colors or sweeteners. It's non gmo, no soy, no animal products, no gluten, no preservatives. It's all the good stuff.

[Kaylin Moore]

You've never tasted strawberry like this. Go to kachava.com and use code clues for 15% off your order. That's Kachava K-A C-H-A-V A.com code cluze for 15% off.

[Kim Wall]

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[Kaylin Moore]

Like it goes without saying, but this is so intentional, it's clear that this.

[Kim Wall]

Is not an accident. It's very deliberate. The remains were collected by officials and brought in for DNA testing, where two days later, it was confirmed that the body belonged to Kim Voll. And an autopsy also found this. Again, viewer listener discretion is advised. She had been stabbed 15 times, mostly in the groin. Which makes Peter's story even more difficult to believe clearly. Again, a fucking liar. Yeah, because Madsen didn't say anything about dismembering Kim's body before he dumped it overboard. He also didn't mention tying metal to her to keep her body from resurfacing. During this burial at sea, he performed. So when investigators questioned Peter in jail, they grilled him about all these details, only to find he didn't really have Any answers for them? On September 5th, Peter appeared at another court hearing where police petitioned to extend his detention for another month while the investigation continued. In this hearing, Peter even stuck to his original story, saying Kim died after being hit in the head by the hatch. And then he buried her at sea, still sticking to it. On October 6, 2017, divers found Kim's head and legs at the bottom of Coogee Bay, south of Copenhagen. These remains had been placed into a pair of plastic bags along with her clothes, a knife and pieces of metal similar to what was wrapped on her torso. Police also later discovered a handsaw on the ocean floor not far from where these bags had been discovered. Investigators transported these newly discovered remains to a lab where a forensic pathologist performed another autopsy. And during the examination of Kim's skull, they found no signs of a head injury. None.

[Kaylin Moore]

And that's what he said was the hatch door hit her in the head and that's how she died. Yeah, I mean, clearly, like everything he said has been a lie thus far, but it's just, it's even more devastating to get the evidence back that everything was a lie. Because now I'm wondering, after hearing all of this, how she died and how much she had to endure, given, like, the state that her body was found in.

[Kim Wall]

You can't believe a single word that comes out of this psychopath's mouth.

[Kaylin Moore]

No.

[Kim Wall]

I'm really trying to keep it together for you guys right now.

[Kaylin Moore]

I know. Clearly. So angry.

[Kim Wall]

Clearly he cannot be believed no matter what tale events you're gonna get.

[Kaylin Moore]

And also the fact that so many tools were found with her body, the handsaw at the bottom of the ocean, like intentional, like he brought plastic bags.

[Kim Wall]

It was planned.

[Kaylin Moore]

It was planned.

[Kim Wall]

He knew.

[Kaylin Moore]

Exactly.

[Kim Wall]

Absolutely planned. So clearly the story about the 150 pound hatch hitting her in the head is a lie. And while they can rule out head trauma, police can't determine Kim's actual cause of death. Her remains had spent so long in the water by this point that a lot of that crucial forensic evidence had been destroyed by the elements. But one thing is very clear. She did not die the way that Peter Madsen had claimed. So at this point, for all of us, it's very clear Peter has very questionable, disgusting, repugnant behavior. But while police are busy looking for Kim's body in the fall of 2017, they're also interviewing Peter's co workers. Like, as we said, from the start of this investigation, they knew something was up with him. They knew the story was fishy. So immediately they really Started going in and interviewing all of the people connected and close to him, which is when they start interviewing the co workers from the rocket company. And what they learn begins to paint a very different picture of Madsen than this eccentric, happy, go, lucky guy that he was presenting to the media. You know, thumbs up, everything's good, guy.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, everything's good.

[Kim Wall]

The volunteers who signed up to help Madsen in his workshop because they believed in this mission start to reconsider some of his questionable behavior, which is kind of our third clue ish thing in this case. For starters, Madsen seemed to have this bizarre obsession with Nazis stand up guy. As a little boy, one of his idols was a former Nazi rocket scientist. And apparently he would give his workers Nazi style nicknames inspired by the characters in the movie Das Boot, which is about a crew of German submarine people in World War II.

[Kaylin Moore]

It's interesting that only after this murder happened, they started reconsidering his obsession with Nazi history and memorabilia. It was like, fine before, but now, oh, now that he killed someone, maybe the Nazi stuff was bad.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, it gets kind of worse. You know, again, you kind of like, smack your head, like, what? Smh. Whatever it is. Like, he would even pretend to be a Nazi officer in the workshop, asking disturbing questions like, quote, what if I inject battery acid into your veins? Most of his staff wrote this off as his weird sense of humor at work. They were more concerned about his mood swings, which changed really quickly and violently. One of the volunteers told a reporter that if something didn't go his way, he would behave like, quote, a child who lost his toy or dropped his ice cream. And people who worked with him even said that when he was upset, he would start flinging hammers, screwdrivers, and other tools around the workshop in a rage.

[Kaylin Moore]

I just watched the Titan submersible documentary that Netflix put out, and there's so many similarities between the guy who made that submersible and this guy who made this submarine. Just in terms of, like, anytime anything goes wrong, you kind of fly off the handle. Anytime anyone questions you, they get fired. So now everyone at work is just obsessed with making you happy and just trying to, like, do a good job so they don't get fired.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, it's. It's baffling. And I get like, you know, people have to have jobs, they have to survive.

[Kaylin Moore]

But, well, that's like a big part of the Netflix stock is like, those people start quitting Oceangate. Like, they could see the forest for the trees, and they knew that it was gonna implode yeah. So they just started quitting. And so, I mean, this is different because these people maybe didn't see issues with, like, the safety of the stuff he was building, so they decided to not quit, but, like, just really horrible, eccentric people that, like, run these companies.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. And, I mean, his violent temper had clearly been an issue for years.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yes. Right.

[Kim Wall]

And so this was a big part of when his business partner, Christian von Bengston, and him were working together at the original Rocket Place, Copenhagen suborbitals. This was, like, the main reason they split up was these violent outbursts. Von Bengston also went on to say, like, he was argumentative, uncooperative. And when Madsen tried to force him out of the organization in 2014, a lot of the volunteers actually took Christian's side, which is when then Peter Madsen split, did his own rocket company and went his own way. And the coworkers did go on to say that, like, while they were used to this violent, erratic behavior from him, he started acting especially strange in the weeks leading up to Kim's death. And a big factor of it is kind of that test flight that got canceled. There was a documentary filmmaker that was interviewing him at the time that said he had this, like, strange energy after the test was canceled. This is where we share one of the most interesting clips I've come across online.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, I can't believe you found this.

[Kim Wall]

This interview is very strange. Like, it is so clear how weird his behavior is. And, you know, someone on a subreddit said, like, the interviewer had asked him a question about, like, a psychopath or, like, psychopathic tendencies or something. But, like, the clip we have, Peter Madsen, seemingly unprompted, goes on to discuss psychopaths and what a psychopath is like. They're charming, they're believable.

[Kaylin Moore]

They're like good speakers.

[Kim Wall]

He says good speakers. I mean, you guys will see some sections of this clip, but, like, it is very strange. And so much so that he goes, like, at the end, he's like, But I wouldn't know.

[Kaylin Moore]

He.

[Kim Wall]

Who is a psychopath? Does he know he's a psychopath? Like, something along those lines. And he's pointing to himself. Like, the body language does not lie. This feels like a clear projection.

[Kaylin Moore]

He.

[Kim Wall]

He talks about stalking people and throwing them away and using them. And, like, I'm getting the chills just, like, thinking about this clip.

[Kaylin Moore]

It's really haunting to see, especially because, you know, what was it, like, 11 months before?

[Kim Wall]

This was 11 months before the murder.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Kim Wall]

So don't Take my word for it. Watch it. Let me know what you think in the comments, because it's a lot.

[Morgan Absher]

Psychopathic people are often very charismatic. They are excellent speakers. They're convincing. They are having illusions of self grandeur and have no regard for anyone else. And he will try really to punish those people who have been under his spell. He will try to punish them afterwards by stalking them, by talking badly about all these things. There is the possibility that you've simply come upon a human predator. And I wouldn't know, because do the psychopath know that he's a psychopath? I'm not sure.

[Kim Wall]

Okay, so we have that interview, and then we also have this piece of information from another one of these volunteers. So one of these volunteers actually reported seeing Madsen walking around with a saw sticking out of his backpack on the afternoon of Kim's murder. Allegedly, this is the same saw that was found near the remains on the ocean floor. So after interviewing all of these co workers and volunteers, they turn to people in his social life to, like, really get down to the nitty gritty of this guy. And here is where our clue number three kind of takes another twisted turn. They find out that Peter's social life is a bit unorthodox. When Madsen wasn't designing rockets or subs, he was a regular at a BDSM club and sex parties in Copenhagen. And although he had been married for six years at this point, like, apparently they had an open relationship and that was their dynamic. And so he pursued relationships with many women who he met at clubs and in the Copenhagen art scene. He would even incorporate submarines into his sex life, asking people if they wanted to see his submarine.

[Kaylin Moore]

Not how I thought submarines would have been incorporated into the sex life. I'm glad that it's just that, Yeah.

[Kim Wall]

I guess on a couple occasions, he would show up to these sex parties wearing a naval uniform and a hat. And he really played himself up as, like, this cool guy that made submarines and rockets. And apparently he would let people use his submarines for their sexual experiences as well. In 2007, he actually loaned two of his submarines to a German adult film company so they could film scenes inside of the subs. And one witness told police that Madsen had even acted himself in a couple of the porn movies. I'm giving you guys all the tidbits today.

[Kaylin Moore]

So when police. We know way too much about this guy.

[Kim Wall]

I know too much. I have to know it. You have to know it.

[Kaylin Moore]

My search history really can't do this anymore.

[Kim Wall]

Send help. So when police Start talking to some of his sexual partners, they find out that his interests went way beyond consensual bondage fantasies. There was a female volunteer at his workshop that actually told police that he had talked to her on two occasions about his sexualized fascination with death. And there it is. There it is. And, you know, this has come up in a few cases, snuff films. Peter had a love for them, apparently. And for those that don't know what it is, a snuff film is like this violent pornographic film in which someone is tortured and murdered on camera.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, we talked about it in the Gilgo case because one of the cops, the head cop on the case, was, like, running around the police department asking other cops where he could find snuff films and going to, like, sex shops and asking them if they had snuff films. And they were like, no, those are so illegal. We don't carry snuff films. Yeah, very strange. Very, very, very dark.

[Kim Wall]

Well, it gets even worse because apparently Peter even told her that he was interested in making a snuff film of his own. So when police then take a look at his laptop, his hard drives, his iPhone, they discover just how deep this interest went. Which brings us to clue number four. Madsen's videos. Police found that Madsen had downloaded over a hundred snuff films from dark corners of the Internet. Videos that showed women being tortured and killed in terrible, terrible ways. And I'm not going to get into, like, exactly what is in these videos, but we know some of his search terms as well, which include, quote, throat, girl pain.

[Kaylin Moore]

I do know he had, like, cartel videos. I won't explain what was happening in them, but it was like. Like, just think of those, like, ISIS films and, like, the cartel films that kind of, like, make their way around the Internet every now and then. Like, he had those just, like, all over the hard drive.

[Kim Wall]

Clearly obsessed. And, like, he would search the terms beheading and agony to get there to find those videos.

[Kaylin Moore]

He was looking for, like, the darkest stuff you could find, the darkest on the Internet.

[Kim Wall]

Darkest. And so these videos really suggested that he had a lot more violent fantasies than anyone could have guessed. And clearly he seemed fixated on watching women suffer. And this is something that's really, I don't know, weird. I think this should be addressed. In Denmark, it's actually not illegal to possess materials like this. It's obviously illegal to make and distribute them. But, like, just having these videos, hundreds or whatever that he downloaded, like, isn't necessarily illegal. So clearly we have all of These red flags. And of course, it gets worse when they really start talking to former sexual partners. It becomes apparent that he was planning to maybe act on some of these fantasies.

[Kaylin Moore]

I know, because at this point in the investigation, they have, like, weird behavior that his coworkers have reported on, and they also now have, like, evidence that he was interested in this kind of stuff. So really, like, the next place to look is former girlfriends just to get a clue as to if this was, like, a pattern of behavior he had.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, and that's exactly what they do. So they. They start looking at texts that Peter had exchanged with one of his previous sexual partners. Now, I'm not sure how far into the investigation this was, but at some point, there's a woman that Peter had been sleeping with that actually reached out to police to share her experiences with him. She was an artist who lived near his workshop and had been seeing him regularly in the weeks leading up to Kimball's death. Out of respect for her privacy, the police actually don't reveal her name to the press. So we're just going to call her Shelly here. So a few days before the deadly journey aboard the Nautilus, Shelley was texting Peter. She was trying to get this design project done ahead of a deadline, but was having a hard time focusing. And so she sent a text to Peter asking him to send her a playful threat, one that would motivate her to finish her work.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, what would that be like? Oh, you have to clean the dishes. If, like, what would. I'm just trying to think of what I would expect Matt to say to me if I was like, oh, like, what's a threat if I don't finish my work today? It would be like, you have to take out the dog. Or like, you.

[Kim Wall]

You have to take the trash out. Yeah, you have to vacuum.

[Kaylin Moore]

It's just, like, one thing I don't want to do.

[Kim Wall]

You have to squeegee the shower.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. Like, that is not what Peter said.

[Kim Wall]

No, no. Peter responded by threatening to take her out on his submarine and kill her if she didn't get her work done on time.

[Kaylin Moore]

Just so extreme.

[Kim Wall]

Shelly plays along with the joke. Telling him that wasn't a scary enough of a threat. So Peter kept sending her more details about how exactly he would kill her on his submarine. He talked about how he would invite her aboard for a friendly ride, but once they were out at sea, beneath the water where nobody could save her, he would attack her. He then goes on to say in these text messages that he would start by using a utility knife to sever her jugular vein, that he would impale her on a roasting spit. And then to cover his tracks, he promised to cut up her body and throw the pieces into the ocean.

[Kaylin Moore]

That is so specific. That is someone who has spent time thinking about this and planning.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. And at the time, Shelley didn't think any of what he said was serious. They both apparently had a dark sense of humor.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. And plenty of people have dark humor. Like, if you're watching this and that is the type of humor you have with your spouse, it's because you know them and you know that they're normal. I think, like, in hindsight, now that we know everything about Peter, clearly that was, like, not a joke and he was planning. But it is interesting that she was like, yeah, I just thought he had dark humor.

[Kim Wall]

It's very odd for me to rationalize it as that, but the more Shelly read about Kim's death, like, she realized that these circumstances he had described to her sound exactly like what happened to Kim. And police go even further. Like, they get this report from Shelley and then they go and talk to four other different women who Madsen had invited to travel on the Nautilus with him. In the weeks before Kim was killed, one woman told investigators that he had first invited her out on his submarine in May of 2017. At that time, she refused, and he called her again out of the blue to invite her on the Nautilus just two days before his voyage with Kim.

[Kaylin Moore]

Police are gathering all these clues, talking to all of these people. They're building their case against Peter, and he is still sitting behind bars. And eventually they are able to charge him with three main crimes. They charge him with murder, with aggravated sexual assault and desecration of a corpse. And his trial officially begins the following year on March 8, 2018. Though we'll make a note here, criminal trials in Denmark work a little bit differently than they do in the United States. And in the Danish legal system, when a case is highly emotional or very media fueled, a defendant can actually request a smaller jury panel than usual to ensure that the jurors remain impartial. I mean, think about here in the United States, how long it takes to get juries sometimes, like the duty trial. Like, it can take months and months and months.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

In Denmark, they're like, we'll just have two people. Like, we'll just. Instead of finding 12, we'll find two.

[Kim Wall]

Interesting.

[Kaylin Moore]

Very interesting. So Peter gets permission to have just two jurors and one judge hear his case. So that's three people that are going to decide his fate. And the goal here for Madsen and his defense team was to prove to them that Kim's death was not a premeditated murder.

[Kim Wall]

Oh, my God. You have the text messages of exactly how you're gonna do it. How is it not premeditated to other women.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. And so he's saying that, no, it actually happened the exact way that I said it did. And interestingly enough, I think this just kind of, like, speaks to Peter's sense of grandeur and, like, just his personality at As a whole. But he takes the stand in his own defense, and he offers his own version of what happened that day. He's like, if I just get in front of these people and tell them exactly what happened, how I saw it, like, they'll believe me.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. And I think that goes back to the. You know, the clip of him talking about psychopaths and how they're. They're charismatic and they can convince people when they talk. Like, he thought he could do that.

[Kaylin Moore]

But he also says they have a sense of grandeur, and that's exactly what it is. Like, he's saying all these things like, they're good at talking. No, you're not. Every time you talk, everyone knows you're lying, but they have this, like, inflated sense of self. So he thinks he's really good at everything. When Peter gets up to tell his side of the story, he does seem like he's almost excited to do so. There was more than a hundred reporters in the gallery watching this trial. I mean, also, remember, Kim is a reporter. Like, there's her friends, her co workers, colleagues. Like, everyone turned out for this, because when a reporter gets murdered, it's a huge deal within the community. And remember. So he initially claimed that Kim died after that heavy latch fell on her head and cracked her skull. And then, as a result, he dumped her body overboard in this state of depression and despair. But now on the stand, he offers up a third, different version of what happened that night on the Nautilus. And this is what he said happened this time. So he said when the Nautilus was still above the surface of the water, he briefly exited the submarine to check on something that was happening on the outer deck. When he got out of the sub, he says that he closed the hatch behind him to prevent any of the ocean water from getting down into the subtle. And while he was out on the deck, one of the engines inside the Nautilus began malfunctioning and emitting all of these toxic fumes and he claims that while Kim was alone in the totally sealed sub, she was overcome by the fumes and she actually died of carbon monoxide poisoning. And when Madsen re entered the submarine, that's when he found her dead on the floor. And at this point in the trial, too, he starts describing the problems that the Nautilus was having and what he did to fix it. We kind of talked about this earlier, right? Like, he. He has in his mind, like, oh, if I just explain how a submarine works because no one understands it, they'll just take my word as truth. Like, they'll. You know, these people are too dumb to understand submarines like me, so they'll just believe whatever I say. So he starts, like, really going into very specific detail how submarines work in this moment, to the point where the judge repeatedly interrupts him and just asks him to stick to the basic facts of the case. They're like, we're not here to get into the inner workings of submarines.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. I also find it interesting, this change of story, because you can tell carbon monoxide poisoning in an autopsy. And even if that were the case, like, why did you still stab 15 times and dismember her?

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. If it was carbon monoxide, how did the carbon monoxide do that? He actually does have an answer for that, though, when he's, like, telling everyone the story.

[Kim Wall]

Of course he does.

[Kaylin Moore]

He said that when he saw her lying on the floor, he started slapping her cheeks to get her to wake up. And in his words, he describes this as trying to reboot her. And that's something that happened a lot during this trial, is he would talk about people and himself as if they were machines. And it's this weird thing he does that kind of separates the humanity from anyone involved in the situation. And maybe it's just the way his brain works. But he keeps also, like, comparing himself to the Terminator, which is very strange to a very strange thing to do. He's talking about himself in the third person. Like, everything is so detached. It's like he's not a human as he's, like, going through this trial.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. I will just say, you guys, this might be one to watch on YouTube because my face this episode.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, I hate this guy. People described that he maybe had a hard time distinguishing between people and machines, but I think he probably just had a hard time seeing people as human beings. He saw everything as just like a machine. He said that eventually in this situation, when he was down inside the submarine, he came to terms with the fact that Kim was dead. And that's when he again got so depressed he had to go sleep it off for several hours. And he wakes up. He sleeps on it, wakes up and decides the only thing to do is bury her at sea. He sticks to the burying at sea story, but now he has a way to explain, like, the state that she was found in. He said that he spent half an hour trying to carry her body up the ladder out of the hatch, but he wasn't able to do it by himself. So instead he took her body to the bathroom, and that's when he dismembered her so that she would be easier to throw overboard. But he, as he's describing this, it's very logical. It's very like this analytical decision he made. This quote is upsetting to hear, and it is taken directly from him during court. He says, what do you do when you have a big problem? You divide it up into something smaller, horrible. But it's that same thing of, like, just not saying people is people, like, seeing a person as a problem. And he is being all analytical on, like, how do I solve this?

[Kim Wall]

Absolutely insane. When prosecutors questioned Madsen on the stand, he really did not have any good explanations for all these holes in his story. When asked why he'd initially told police that Kim was killed by the hatch, he claimed he was embarrassed, that it was humiliating, that a flaw in his submarine's design had allowed the carbon monoxide fumes to leak inside. He also claimed to have lied about her cause of death because he wanted to protect her family's feelings.

[Kaylin Moore]

It's not up to you.

[Kim Wall]

You just killed her.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. And all. Yeah, of course that.

[Kim Wall]

Like yourself, dude. He said he thought that it would be easier for them if they believed their daughter had died instantly. In his words, quote, a dead body does not deserve any special respect. The prosecution also called in some expert witnesses to pick apart Peter's claim that Kim had died because of a gas leak. First, they talked to a submarine expert from the Danish Navy. On the witness stand, she testified that she'd run tests on the interior of the Nautilus, and they showed no trace of carbon monoxide. They also had a coroner testify about her examination of Kim Vol's lungs. She said there were no signs of heat damage or gas residue, which would be normally found in someone who died by carbon monoxide poisoning. So once Peter's story had been thoroughly dismissed, prosecutors presented the results of a psychiatric assessment that they had performed on him while he was awaiting trial. They found that Madsen showed no signs of remorse for Kim Voll's death and no compassion for her family. Based on their conversations with him, they determined that he was a pathological liar, a narcissist, and incapable of empathy. They diagnosed him with, quote, psychopathic traits, which again, goes back to, you know, everything we've talked about, his questionable behavior, that interview, clip, everything. The mental health specialist concluded their report by recommending that Peter be held in safe custody because he was a danger to others. And then the prosecution got to work trying to prove that Peter had carefully planned this murder. For a while. They called those volunteers that worked with him to the stand. They called Shelly to the stand. They had those four other women who he had tried to get on board the Nautilus come to the stand. The prosecutors also called the snuff film evidence and all of the search terms into question, which Peter did have a response for. He tried to defend watching and engaging with these things by claiming watching these videos made him feel more empathy for women.

[Kaylin Moore]

No, no.

[Kim Wall]

He claimed they were no more suspicious or incriminating than violent Hollywood films like Kill Bill or Seven.

[Kaylin Moore]

They literally are. And actually, one of the saddest parts about this trial is they played those videos for the jury.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. And I heard one video was so graphic, they couldn't play the video. They only played the sound.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, the worst one. They could only play the audio. And it just really rattled the jury and so obviously has to even look at this material, even on a jury knows that it's not the same as Kill Bill or Seven.

[Kim Wall]

Well, Peter's lawyers had hope that, you know, maybe after this trial is kind of seemingly going south, maybe his saving grace would be his wife, who they thought was gonna testify and talk about how kind and compassionate he was. But shortly before she was due to appear in court, she pulled out.

[Kaylin Moore]

She said, nope.

[Kim Wall]

Bye. She provided a note from a doctor excusing her from testifying due to emotional distress. And so before the trial ended, Peter was given an opportunity to make one final closing statement. And all he said was, quote, I'm very, very sorry for what has happened. And after that, it was up to the judge and those two jurors to decide his fate.

[Kaylin Moore]

And on April 25th of 2018, the judge announced the verdict. She said that Peter Madsen had, quote, failed to give trustworthy explanations for what happened aboard the Nautilus on August 10, 2017. And based on the evidence that she had seen, the judge found Peter guilty of premeditated murder, aggravated sexual assault, and desecrating a corpse. And she sentenced him to life in prison. Throughout the trial, Peter seemed very unbothered by what was going on. There's all these, like, pictures and videos of him just, like, looking around the courtroom. He's very bored with it all. I think in his mind, he was like, when can I just go home? Like, clearly, I'm gonna be found innocent. Just let me leave. But when he heard his sentence, his whole demeanor suddenly changed. He sat at the defense table for over a minute with his eyes closed and his head bowed. This is clearly not what he was expecting. And he got maybe a little taste of the way that other people saw him, because he really saw himself as this, like, super genius who was gonna go to space. And he's too smart for everyone. He can kill whoever he wants, and he'll never be caught. And his stupid little responses to questions are good enough for the police. But after he hears the verdict, he knows that he didn't fool anyone this entire time.

[Kim Wall]

Nope.

[Kaylin Moore]

He got got. So now he will spend the rest of his life in a cell in jail.

[Kim Wall]

And I hope it's actually for life in Denmark. I know other countries say for life, and it's like, it ends up being nine years. Like, I hope he rots in there. Rots.

[Kaylin Moore]

I'm looking it up. Jails in Denmark do look like IKEAs. That's like the thing in the Netherlands, right, Is there's, like, a. A episode of Atlanta about it where, like, the jails are very nice, and they're kind of, like, cozy and roomy.

[Kim Wall]

They don't have the electric chair over there.

[Kaylin Moore]

Here. This little blip says Denmark's prison system is characterized by a focus on rehabilitation and reintegration, neither of which I believe he can do.

[Kim Wall]

No.

[Kaylin Moore]

Both with open and closed prisons. Open prisons offer more freedom and resemble a normal life, while closed prisons are more secure and restrictive. A key feature of the system is the low prison population rate and the relatively short sentences, with many prisoners released on probation before they complete their full sentence. So hopefully, that is not the case here.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

And I will say, even though there was only one suspect in this case, there's still a lot of loose ends. There's still so many questions that just don't have answers. In this case, one of the big ones is, how did Kim actually die? And I think it's up to Kim's family on if they actually want that answer or not, or if they're able to find peace and closure without knowing exactly what happened to her that night. The prosecution, they don't really know for sure. Even to this day, a lot of the evidence had just been kind of washed away by the water. And so we. All we have really is, like, the murder plan he texted to other women. And so we can kind of assume that's what happened, but we don't know for sure. But only one person really knows what happened and will never get a straight answer on anything out of him.

[Kim Wall]

No. Peter Madsen is a psychopathic liar. Like, and so many people online question, like, what exactly was he thinking?

[Kaylin Moore]

I don't even know how you would understand the mind of someone like that.

[Kim Wall]

We'll never get there. We will never get there. And, like, at the end of the day, like, it doesn't matter. Like, fuck him. Like, the person that matters at this story is Kim Vault. And, like, the life she would have had making such a huge difference out there.

[Kaylin Moore]

I know. Just, like, with how fearless she was in her reporting, like, she would have just had such a cool career.

[Kim Wall]

Just to hear her family talk about her is just, like, it makes you. You just, like, knew you would have loved her. You knew you would have loved being friends with her. You would have done everything to be friends with her. Like, she was so curious, so caring, so empathetic. And there's a video, I think we'll link in the description of this episode that her family kind of does a tribute and talks about her. And there is now a book that has come out about Kim, and it's just clear how remarkable she was.

[Kaylin Moore]

Well, you were talking about there, because I'm going to talk about the book in a second because it's actually interesting and kind of offers, like, a little bit of a different perspective on stuff than we had before. But you were saying that there's a fiction show that Kim's family consulted on.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. So there is this TV series that Kim's family, like, really consulted on. I think I saw that. Like, they saw the scripts, they saw every cut of it. And in this, they don't ever directly mention Peter.

[Kaylin Moore]

I'm so curious to watch the. The show. It's. It's not English language, is it? It wasn't made in the U.S. i don't think so. I imagine it's a Danish show.

[Kim Wall]

I didn't get a chance to watch it in all my research for this. I'm. I'm very curious, but family is really, really involved and still speaking about this and, you know, Kim's legacy to this day.

[Kaylin Moore]

And a final note that I'm gonna add to this episode is just one development that happened with Peter after he was put in jail. And that's that. On October 20, 2020, just over two years behind bars, Peter escaped from prison in the Copenhagen suburbs where he was being held. Apparently he had access to the prison's wood shop again. A wood shop? This man, they're making birdhouses in Danish prison.

[Kim Wall]

Oh, my God. He does not deserve to make a charcuterie board in prison. No.

[Kaylin Moore]

He was able to craft a fake gun out of wood while in jail, and he used that fake gun to hold a prison psychiatrist hostage and escape from the main building. Feels like a huge oversight in that prison. Thankfully, he made it less than a mile from the prison. When police finally caught him, he was trying to hide in a van. But when officers approached him, he lifted up his shirt and he had a suicide bomb on him. So the police retreated and instead they surrounded him. And kind of this arm standoff, there's actually a picture of it. He's just kind of like sitting in the grass, in the grass by the road. And like there's like a canine and one of the police officers there, like kind of unsure of what to do because no one's going to approach him. So they waited for an hour until this bomb disposal robot arrived. And it got close enough to Peter to realize that his bomb was also just made from wood that he was able to make in the wood shop. So police took him back into custody and the courts added another 21 months onto his already life sentence, which 21.

[Kim Wall]

Months for escaping, holding a psychiatrist at would gunpoint, and threatening a bunch of people and officers with bomb seems a little short.

[Kaylin Moore]

Not even two years.

[Kim Wall]

No.

[Kaylin Moore]

And reportedly they've also restricted his access to the prison workshop. Thank God. Oh my gosh.

[Kim Wall]

Okay, good.

[Kaylin Moore]

Hopefully he won't be able to pull a stunt like that again.

[Kim Wall]

Fingers crossed.

[Kaylin Moore]

So throughout the long ordeal of the search for Kim and the trial, Kim's parents kind of struggled to preserve her memory in the way that they wanted her to be remembered as an accomplished, award winning journalist, not as a victim. And shortly after Kim's death, her parents formed the Kim Ball Memorial Fund to honor her legacy and support future generations of female and non binary journalists. Since 2018, the Kimball Memorial Fund has awarded grants to journalists whose reporting embodies Kim's devotion to lifting up marginalized people and telling untold stories from all over the world. And to learn more about the Kimball Memorial Fund, if you're interested at all, you can visit gofundme.com remembering Kimball.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah, I would say another place to look if you really want to understand how amazing Kim was. Is the remembering kimball.com website. It has all of her articles there. It has a bunch of tributes from family and friends. You can watch her service where people really talk about her and how amazing she was. And something else that I listened to is her parents actually did an interview kind of highlighting this book that came out. It is called A Silenced the Life of Journalist Kim Voll. And they just really go into detail about her. This book, the memorial fund, you know, Kim's experience of being a woman in journalism, how they really discouraged her from going into the media job but like her and her brother became journalists despite the parents being like, don't do it. And they really just talked about how she was fearless and so curious and went above and beyond to write these stories on such important topics like marginalized community and climate change. And so it's only about an hour. And it's really, really just an amazing thing. You know, hearing her parents talk about her and hearing how impactful this new fund is to get women non binary people money they need to continue to pursue stories. And her family has said like, this is, you know, if there's this that comes out of this tragedy, like, at least it's something.

[Kaylin Moore]

It looks like they've already raised over $400,000 and the most recent donation was four days ago. Like people are still actively donating to this.

[Kim Wall]

It is incredible. And you know, they talk about Kim and how she did face adversity in a very male dominated field and there were editors that kind of stifled her career and how she banded together with other female journalists to like, kind of help each other even though they were competitors. Like, it is a really, really cool interview. And I think if you're a journalist out there and trying to get a break, like this might be something to apply for this grant by her fund. So definitely look into it. And all of these things we're talking about will be linked in the description. There's also an article that her parents do that I think is really interesting because they both are journalists as well. And it's called When We Faced Him. Our daughter, the journalist Kim Vall was taken from us far too soon. When the trial came, her murderer had to look us in the eye. And it's this whole article just going through their experience of, you know, this tragedy, this loss and the trial. And so that is a really interesting read as well.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, thank you for finding that.

[Kim Wall]

I went off my rocker on this episode. Apologies everyone for being a little unhinged, a little too vocal. And it was hard to remain neutral on this one when, I mean, you just. All of these cases can hit really hard. But like, God, this woman was just, she was on the brink of just having this insane career and making change. And it's just very frustrating.

[Kaylin Moore]

She was around our age too, was going to work for the day. Like, it just, so much of it really hits home. So.

[Kim Wall]

But with that note, it is time to close this case file on Kim Vall. Her murder is obviously a senseless tragedy. But if you want to regain your faith in humanity, we recommend you read some of her writings. Her articles are fascinating, colorful. These insightful portraits of people, places and cultures that are underexplored. And I think something that's so important to kind of contrast the monster behind this that looked at people as machines is Kim saw humans. She wanted to share humans and kindness and empathy and all these colorful experiences with the world. So again, you can find all of her writings on her memorial site at remembering kimvall.com writing but I want to share a little clip of it here with you guys. Kim wrote in one of her articles, quote, I want to know how the world works and I hope that maybe one day I can learn enough to make a difference. So let's all take that sentiment with us on the rest of our day, our week, our month, our year, and let's all try to live our lives with Kim's open minded curiosity, her hunger for empathy and understanding the world. And maybe, just maybe, we can all make a little, little bit of a difference in this world. And here's how we're gonna try to do that with our Missing Person of the Week.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yes. So for this week's Missing Person of the Week, we're taking a little bit of a different approach because this is someone who's been in the news recently and I hope to God by the time this episode comes out that they've actually found this person because it is someone who's currently on the run. And it is very important that this person be found as soon as possible. And that is Travis decker. So on May 30 of 2025, after a custody visit, Travis Decker disappeared with his three daughters, Peyton, who was 9, Evelyn, who was 8, and Olivia, who was 5, in Wenatchee, Washington. On June 2, authorities did discover the girl's bodies at Rock Island Campground and they were near Decker's abandoned truck. Evidence did link their deaths to Decker. His fingerprint matched blood that was found on the truck. And Decker is currently wanted for first degree murder and kidnapping. I have a little bit of information on the investigation that's currently taking place. So authorities launched an expansive search across rugged terrain. Helicopters, drones, cadaver dogs, swift water rescue teams swept Washington's Cascades and nearby waterways. Didn't find anything. Investigators also reviewed Decker's Internet searches, which showed that he looked into moving to Canada, suggesting that's maybe where he escaped to. And despite his military training and wilderness survival skills, officials consider that he may have been injured. He may have, like, gotten an infection or drowned or died from other causes. That is something that is a possibility in this. He's maybe no longer on the run. There's been a couple sightings that have ultimately not led anywhere. On June 10, hikers reported seeing a man matching Decker's description near an alpine lake. But that trail didn't lead anywhere. And from July 5th to 9th, there's been multiple credible sightings in Idaho's Sawtooth National Forest, which is over 500 miles away from where this took place. And it spurred this huge, massive, multi agency sweep. And a man who resembled Travis, he had a ponytail, he had tattoos, he had this beard. Was interviewed, but he was found to not be Decker. And I did read recently that they canceled the search in Idaho from this point forward. Travis is described as 32, almost 33 years old. He's white. He has black hair and brown eyes. He is 5 foot 8 and weighs around 190 pounds. Tattoos and scars are unknown here, though I have seen reports of him having tattoos, and it's been said that he may be using the alias of Caleb.

[Kim Wall]

If you see Travis. The United States Marshal Service is offering a reward of $20,000 for information leading directly to Travis Decker's arrest. He is considered to be armed and dangerous. So if you see Travis Decker, please call 911 immediately. Do not attempt to contact or approach him. Anyone with information is urged to contact the nearest U.S. marshal's office. Or you can call the U.S. marshals Service Communication center at 1-800-336-0102 or the USMS tips at www.usmarshals.gov tips.

[Kaylin Moore]

And hopefully, like I said, by the time this episode airs, he has been found.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. Justice served.

[Kaylin Moore]

And so that's all we have on this episode of Clues. We want to hear from you guys. We always do. Your thoughts, your theories, your feedback, all of that is what makes this community so special.

[Kim Wall]

Yeah. And be sure to check out those links we share on Kim, her writing. I think all of it is just so impactful and important to also consume. When you consume this case at Crime House, we really value your support. So again, share all your thoughts and remember to rate, review and follow Chris Clues to help others discover our show. And if you're hungry for even more content, we've got you covered. For more exclusive content, monthly bonus episodes, early access and ad free listening, join our Crime House plus community on Apple Podcasts.

[Kaylin Moore]

We will be back next week with another case for us to unravel, and until then, keep searching and we will see you next time on Clues.

[Kim Wall]

Bye guys.

[Kaylin Moore]

Bye. If you're loving Clues, check out our fellow Crime House original show coming Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes for the world's.

[Kim Wall]

Darkest truths, follow Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes now wherever you get your podcasts. And for ad free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.