SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer

Summary

Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore Episode Summary: SERIAL KILLER: The Zodiac Killer Release Date: June 4, 2025

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Introduction to the Zodiac Killer Case

In this gripping episode, hosts Morgan Absher and Kaylin Moore delve deep into one of history's most infamous and enigmatic serial killers—the Zodiac Killer. Through meticulous research and engaging storytelling, they explore the series of murders, the cryptic communications from the killer, and the investigative challenges that have left this case unsolved for decades.

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Early Murders: December 20, 1968 – David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen

The Zodiac Killer's reign of terror began in the winter of 1968 in Vallejo, California—a typically tranquil community with a remarkably low homicide rate ("I think this is a case where everyone has heard of the Zodiac Killer" [00:58]).

On December 20, 1968, 17-year-old David Faraday and 16-year-old Betty Lou Jensen attended a Christmas concert. Unbeknownst to them, their evening took a deadly turn when they decided to seek privacy at a local lover's lane. Witnesses saw them at around 10:15 PM, seemingly enjoying their date. However, by 11 PM, a passerby discovered their lifeless bodies, soaked in blood from gunshot wounds.

Morgan reflects on the baffling nature of the crime: "There was no sign of robbery, no indication of sexual assault. It's just... mind-blowing" ([06:10]).

Key Clues:

• Weapon: .22 caliber rifle
• Suspect Vehicle: Suspicious white Chevy Impala
• Lack of Motive: No clear motive identified, making the case perplexing

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Second Attack: July 4, 1969 – Darlene Farren and Mike Mageau

Four months later, on Independence Day 1969, the Zodiac struck again. Darlene Farren, a 22-year-old married woman, and her friend Mike Mageau were enjoying a picnic at Lake Berryessa when they encountered a mysterious white sedan with a hooded figure wielding a flashlight.

The attacker approached them under the guise of needing assistance, but instead, he brandished a gun and opened fire, fatally wounding Darlene and severely injuring Mike. Miraculously, Mike survived and provided a detailed description of the assailant: "a white male on the stockier side, about 5'8 and 200 pounds, with a little pot belly and short brown hair" ([14:25]).

Notable Quote: Darlene's assailant left a chilling message: “I want to report a murder. If you will go one mile east on Columbus Parkway to the public park, you will find kids in a brown car. They were shot with a 9 millimeter Luger. I also killed those kids last year. Goodbye” ([14:56]).

Key Developments:

• Cryptic Letters and Ciphers: The Zodiac began sending letters containing elaborate ciphers, designed to taunt the police and the public.
• Police Challenges: Despite multiple descriptions and a partially preserved palm print, investigators remained stumped due to limited forensic technology of the time.

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Escalation and Continued Terror: September 27, 1969 – Cecilia Ann Shepard and Brian Hartnell

On September 27, 1969, the Zodiac's brutality escalated with the murders of Cecilia Ann Shepard and Brian Hartnell at Lake Berryessa. Known for its beauty and tranquility, the lake became the backdrop for another horrifying attack.

The killer, identifiable by his distinctive hood and the ominous symbol—a circle with a cross through it—stalked the couple, eventually stabbing them repeatedly. Although Cecilia did not survive, Brian managed to escape and provide a horrifying eyewitness account ([27:30]).

Inspector's Insights: Morgan highlights the inconsistent Method of Operation (M.O.): “Unlike other serial killers who have a consistent method, the Zodiac used different weapons—ranging from rifles to stabbings” ([32:07]).

Botched Investigation Marks:

1. Conflicting Palm Prints: The incomplete and possibly tainted palm print on the payphone receiver could not conclusively link to a suspect ([30:28]).
2. False Alibi Handling: The suspect Arthur Lee Allen was initially cleared due to a shaky alibi that was later undermined ([69:35]).

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The Ciphers and Their Decoding Attempts

A pivotal element of the Zodiac's terror was his use of ciphers—a method to communicate directly with the public and authorities. Initially, the enigmatic messages were an impressive puzzle for codebreakers. However, Morgan points out, "He didn't make the cipher hard; he just spelled things wrong" ([20:55]).

Significant Cipher Developments:

• First Cipher: Solved in two days by Donald and Betty Harden, revealing the Zodiac's twisted pleasure in killing.
• 340 Cipher: Remained unsolved for over five decades until finally cracked in 2020 by a team using computer algorithms. It confirmed the Zodiac's continued deviousness but provided no actionable leads ([43:22]).

Notable Quote: When asked about his identity, the Zodiac ominously stated, “I like killing people because it is so much fun... The best part is, when I die, I will be reborn in paradise” ([20:55]).

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Investigation Challenges and Arthur Leigh Allen

Despite several leads, including the eventual focus on Arthur Leigh Allen—a prime suspect with several matching characteristics—the Zodiac Killer remains elusive.

Key Points About Arthur Leigh Allen:

• Connection to the Symbol: Owned a Zodiac-branded watch featuring the killer's distinctive symbol.
• Behavioral Suspicions: Exhibited odd behavior, such as discussing becoming a private investigator to target victims and managing ciphers accurately but without true mastery ([61:31]).
• Fingerprint and Handwriting Mismatch: Although initially considered, subsequent tests showed no match with the letters or crime scene evidence ([72:08]).
• Conviction for Other Crimes: Later convicted as a pedophile, raising additional suspicions but offering no direct link to the Zodiac murders.

Notable Quote: Kaylin asserts, “Arthur Leigh Allen is the least bad of all the suspects, which is why that's the one that we chose to cover today” ([74:50]).

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Theories and Conspiracies Surrounding the Case

The hosts explore various theories, including the possibility that the Zodiac was more interested in media attention than in committing consistent, purposeful murders. They discuss how the sensationalized media coverage may have influenced the killer's actions and how some letters may have been falsely attributed to him to elevate his notoriety.

Key Insights:

• Misleading Media and Police Efforts: Reports suggest that both police and journalists may have chased the Zodiac narrative to the detriment of other leads.
• Inconsistent Victim Selection: Although initially targeting couples, the Zodiac later showed intent to possibly target children, highlighting his unpredictable nature ([43:27]).

Notable Quote: Morgan summarizes the impact of the killer's communication: “The letters gave some insight into his personality, but there's not really enough information in them to narrow in on any suspects” ([79:53]).

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Modern Advances and Remaining Clues

In 2002, a partial DNA sample from a Zodiac letter was tested against Arthur Leigh Allen's DNA but yielded no match. This setback reinforced the mystery, as forensic technology continues to advance without providing closure.

Key Points:

• Unsolved Ciphers: Two ciphers remain unsolved, with the hosts urging listeners to engage with online communities for potential breakthroughs.
• Ongoing Open Investigations: Despite being decades old, the Zodiac Killer case remains open, with sporadic tips and renewed interest from online sleuths.

Notable Quote: Kaylin emphasizes the enduring mystery: “How many victims did he really have? What did he do? Who was he? Sadly, these are questions that may never get answered” ([84:22]).

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Conclusion: The Enigma Persists

Morgan and Kaylin conclude that the Zodiac Killer case remains one of the most chilling unsolved mysteries in criminal history. They express frustration over the botched investigations and the lack of definitive evidence tying any suspect to the crimes. The episode underscores the enduring fascination and fear surrounding the Zodiac Killer, highlighting how modern technology and persistent online communities continue to seek answers where law enforcement has long been stymied.

Final Thoughts: Kaylin challenges the media portrayal of the Zodiac as a genius mastermind, arguing instead that he was likely a "cowardly narcissist" who capitalized on media frenzy for personal gratification ([85:51]).

Call to Action: The hosts encourage listeners to remain vigilant and share any information with authorities, emphasizing that the hunt for the Zodiac Killer is far from over. They invite the community to engage with them on social media, particularly in solving the remaining ciphers.

Notable Quote: Morgan poignantly remarks, “To this day, the Zodiac remains one of the most chilling unsolved crimes” ([86:13]).

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Join the Conversation

For those eager to contribute to solving this enduring mystery, Morgan and Kaylin invite you to participate in ongoing discussions and share your theories on their social media platforms:

• Instagram: @CluesPodcast
• YouTube: CluesPod

Support and Follow: Remember to rate, review, and follow Clues on your favorite podcast platform to help others discover this compelling series. For exclusive content and ad-free listening, consider joining the Crime House Plus community on Apple Podcasts.

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Final Note

As Morgan and Kaylin sign off, they leave listeners with a sense of unresolved tension and a call to remain curious. The Zodiac Killer's shadow looms large, a testament to the limits of forensic science and the complexities of human psychology.

Stay curious, keep searching, and join us next time on Clues.

Transcript

[Morgan Abshur]

This is Crime House. He's providing info that only the killer would know.

[Kaylin Moore]

There's two teenagers on the ground, soaked in blood.

[Morgan Abshur]

She can still remember that voice just clear as day in her head. But there's something else about these letters. Each one has this elaborate cipher. Foreign. Hi. Welcome to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.

[Kaylin Moore]

And these aren't just ordinary cases. They're complex puzzles where forensic science, investigative techniques, and sheer grit collide in order to uncover the truth and deliver justice. I'm Kaylin Moore and I'll be digging deeper into the timelines, the backstories, and the court files released for these cases.

[Morgan Abshur]

And I'm your Internet sleuth, Morgan Abshur. I'm going to be the one diving into some of the Reddit forums and talking about the lesser known details and pulling out those threads that add up or don't.

[Kaylin Moore]

Each week on Clues, we'll explore how the smallest pieces of evidence, like microscopic fibers, a partial fingerprint, even a single strand of hair, could lead to groundbreaking discoveries even, and may even bring long awaited justice. These clues shine a light on the stories that have been waiting, sometimes for decades, to finally be heard. So join us as we uncover breakthroughs, heartbreak, and the relentless pursuit of answers behind these unforgettable investigations.

[Morgan Abshur]

And as always at Crime House, we really value your support. So please share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review and follow clues to help others discover our show. For bonus episodes, early access and ad free listening, join our Crime House plus community on Apple Podcasts.

[Kaylin Moore]

Today, we're talking about one of the most mysterious killers in history, the Zodiac Killer. In the late 60s and early 70s, he terrified people all over the San Francisco Bay area with a string of brutal murders. He struck without warning. He taunted the police with cryptic letters, strange symbols, and chilling promises. And then he vanished. Was the Zodiac a criminal mastermind or was he just a deluded narcissist hiding behind ciphers and shadows? Spoiler. I think it was the latter.

[Morgan Abshur]

To this day, no one knows who the Zodiac Killer was, and it continues to be the topic of heated speculation. And so we're taking a closer look at it. More on this case and the clues the Zodiac Killer left behind right after this quick break. What did you know about this case before diving into today?

[Kaylin Moore]

So this is one that I've always been interested in. I hadn't done a deep dive like we did to prepare for this episode, but growing up, I mean, Zodiac was One of my favorite movies. So I had just really known about the case through that film. I don't know. What about you?

[Morgan Abshur]

I knew nothing. I knew nothing. And that's gonna be a common theme for me, you guys. Like, I really get into these cases when we add them to our list. And I go ham. I go into the subreddits. But I had, like, briefly heard, you know, Zodiac in the same way that Golden State was mentioned, but I really didn't know anything about this case, and I'm blown away. Like, I am. I am beyond ready to get into this because I am just. We've got our botched board here, and I am ready to make some tally marks and get into the details of this one.

[Kaylin Moore]

Totally. I think this is a case where everyone has heard of the Zodiac Killer. I would say he's probably, like, a household name. But getting deep into the research for this episode, there are so many misconceptions about this case, and there's so many conspiracies that I didn't realize. Yeah, I took the movie as, like, oh, this is how the case happened. It gets some incredible details accurate. And then there's a lot that's inaccurate about that movie as well. So there's just so much that I learned. I'm excited to kind of break that down for everyone listening. We're gonna get deep into some of the misconceptions about the case.

[Morgan Abshur]

I'm ready. Should we dive in?

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, let's dive in with our. What are we saying? Cluzers. Our Cluminati.

[Morgan Abshur]

Oh, did we lock one in?

[Kaylin Moore]

I don't know. Vote for whichever one.

[Morgan Abshur]

You guys, this will be the one.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Abshur]

This will be the comments I scour through for what name you guys want to go by. And let's see. I do like Cluminari.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, I like Cluminati.

[Morgan Abshur]

And after going to the Beyonce concert, I. The triangles, I was like, oh, she's really embracing this can.

[Kaylin Moore]

She's really leaning into the Illuminati show.

[Morgan Abshur]

They're coming out. So maybe. Maybe the Illuminati. Maybe that's it. The Sleuthers. But we're going to put it to you guys. So this is the episode. Make your votes. Okay, let's get into this.

[Kaylin Moore]

All right. And before we do, just a quick reminder. For anyone who's watching this episode on YouTube, you're going to see some photos that'll help you visualize a couple different elements of the case. But if you're listening, don't worry. You're going to be able to see those same elements on our social media. That's at Clues podcast on Instagram and just follow us there. Anyways, yeah, we're always in the comments, we're chit chatting about stuff, we're chatty.

[Morgan Abshur]

Or responding back to you guys.

[Kaylin Moore]

Let's start by setting the scene a little bit. So it's the winter of 1968 up north in Vallejo, California. Doesn't really snow, but it gets really cold there still. It's a city in the Bay Area, about an hour's drive north of California and it's a really quiet community. It's a great place for people looking to raise families. It's a safe environment. I think in the 1960s there was something like one homicide every seven years. Wow. Like a really safe place to the point where people would look at you weird if you said you locked your doors at night, like you don't need to. But on December 20, everyone in the area's in holiday spirit. And there's a Christmas concert that night. There's a 17 year old boy named David Faraday and he's really excited for it because he's going to ask his crush, 16 year old Betty Lou Jensen, out on a date. And David is a great kid. I mean he's literally a boy scout. And so Betty's parents are totally comfortable letting her go to this event with him as long this is what they say. She just has to be back home by 11pm Totally normal curfew.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, reasonable.

[Kaylin Moore]

So David has really big plans for this date. He's going to give Betty his class ring. Back in the 60s, that was a huge deal. It basically says I want to go steady with you.

[Morgan Abshur]

That's the cutest thing I've ever heard.

[Kaylin Moore]

I know. But it turns out that the Christmas concert was just a cover for this date. The two of them had totally different plans. So we're going to go do something a little bit steamier. And instead of going to the concert, David actually drives them to this popular lover's lane in the area where they can get a little bit of privacy. And we know that that's where they chose to go because there's a sighting of the couple there. Sometime between 10:15 and 10:30pm Another car drives by and they see David inside the station wagon with Betty. And then around 11pm, kind of the time that they're supposed to be home anyways, another driver drives by and they see that Betty's inside the car leaning her head against David's shoulder. Seems like it's going well the date. But then about 10 minutes later, another woman drives past the car. And there's not many cars in the area. It's getting late. She's probably going home at that point. A bunch of the kids also had curfews, so they're gone. But this woman drives by and she sees David's station wagon is still there. Except this time, her headlights come around the corner, shine on the car, and there's two bodies on the ground and there's blood everywhere. So she doesn't even stop. She floors it, and she gets back into town and she flags down a patrol car around 11:19pm so it's pretty fast that she's able to find a cop. Officers get to the scene immediately, and by the time they get there, the scene is horrible. There's two teenagers on the ground soaked in blood. David has blood all over his head. Betty's back is soaked. She's wearing this blue dress. There's just blood everywhere on it. She's also. What they can tell is she's 28ft away from him. Meaning at some point she probably tried to run and get away or maybe crawl to get to safety. But it seemed like with whatever happened, she wasn't dead right away. They can also see that in the station wagon back window, there's all these like, spiderweb cracks. Whatever happened also hit the station wagon. David dies minutes after he reaches the hospital, But Betty is declared dead at the scene. Eventually, officers learn kind of what they guessed when they got to the scene, but the two were killed by gunshot wounds. The question is, though, who fired the gun? I want you to get into this because there's a little bit more at the crime scene that's going to help them kind of figure out the answer to that question.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah. Investigators get into this pretty quickly and they learn that there was a six minute period where David and Betty were the only people on Lovers Lane. And the shooting happened in that six minute window. So there were no eyewitnesses.

[Kaylin Moore]

Wow.

[Morgan Abshur]

The only small clue we really get is investigators can tell that the gunshots came from a.22 caliber rifle, but that is about it. There's no tire tracks, no footprints, nothing. And there's also not really anything about this crime scene to suggest a motive. There's no sign of robbery, no indication of sexual assault. And these were just two kids out at Lovers Lane and about to head home. I mean, it's just. It's mind blowing to me. The best lead they have is that a suspicious white Chevy Impala was driving around the area that night. A few months go by, and with no new leads, police don't really have a place to start on this. It almost seems like this case is never going to get solved. That is, until four months later, when an eerily similar crime occurs.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yes, it's the 4th of July, 1969. There's this young woman in Vallejo. Her name's Darlene Farren, and she's getting ready to enjoy the holiday. She's 22 years old, she's married. She has this little baby girl at home. Darlene and her husband Dean are actually playing, planning to celebrate the 4th with a few friends after his restaurant shift ends around midnight. But Dean asks her to pick up some fireworks before. And she says, sure, back in the day when you could buy fireworks in California. But Darlene has plans that evening, so she doesn't actually leave to go get the fireworks until about 11:30pm she's kind of cutting it close to when his restaurant shift is gonna end. And she asks the babysitter, hey, just stay a little bit longer. I'm gonna be out. I just have to run this quick errand and then I'll be right back. At least that's what she says she's going to go do. She's actually going to go pick up a guy named Mike Majo. Mike's 19, and he and Darlene are very good friends. A lot of people actually think that they're more than just good friends. And Darlene and Mike, they're not going to go pick up fireworks that night. Instead, they end up going to the parking lot of the Blue Rock Springs Golf Course, another Lovers Lane type area, only two miles from where David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen were killed. And the couple sitting alone in the area. It's dark, there's no one else around, and all of a sudden another car pulls up into the lot. And it's a. It's a big lot. A lot of kids come here to, you know, it's a lover's lane, but this car pulls up right next to them, and that's kind of Lovers Lane faux pas. You give each other space when you're there.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, we all have one of those areas where we grew up. Mine is Skyline Parkway into Luth. It's. There's rules. You don't park next to another car. You don't peer in other cars. Like you just. You're trying to make out. There's. There's guidelines.

[Kaylin Moore]

It's known that you give each other privacy. So it is so Weird. When this car pulls up right next to them, and, like, the two of them start wondering, is this a peeping Tom? Is this a cop? They actually sit there for a few minutes, not really knowing what to do. Like, should they confront this person? Because what if it is a cop? Could they get in trouble? I mean, it's. She's married, so she really doesn't want anyone to find out about this.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

Is it her husband? There's all these questions being asked.

[Morgan Abshur]

You don't know when there's headlights blasting in your car. It's dark, and you can't see in the other car. I've had someone do this to me where me and a high school boyfriend were making out in the backseat of the car. They pulled up right behind us, turned their brights on and didn't move. And, you know, it's not a coincidence, and you just. You feel how scary it is. So I can imagine they were confused and panicked.

[Kaylin Moore]

Right. They can't see anything. And so after a couple minutes, the other driver does speed off, and they both kind of exhale. Like, that was a close call, but maybe that person got confused or they thought they were somewhere else and they just drove off. They kind of get back to talking, whatever. And five minutes later, the car turns back around and comes back, and it does the same thing again. It parks really close to Darlene's car, but this time, the driver gets out, and he shines this big, heavy flashlight at them. And that's when Mike is like, okay, this is definitely a cop. Like, jig is up. So he starts going for his ID Thinking, let me at least get my ID out for this guy. But the next thing he knows, the stranger has a gun pointed at him and just starts shooting directly into Darlene's car. Both of them are hit. Mike is hitting basically from the head down, just, like, five bullets into, like, head, arm, leg, all the way down. And one of the bullets actually goes through his jaw, hits Darlene and kills her. Darlene is not moving when Mike looks over at her. And Mike is barely hanging on to dear life. And he ends up being able to crawl back into the passenger seat. He opens the door and just spills out onto the pavement, lying there in total agony. And thankfully, a group of teenagers pull into the lot just a few minutes later, and they offer to go help. It's the same thing where it was just, like, this short period of time where there was no one else in the parking lot. And immediately after that, this group of teenagers comes through. It's like, whoever did this knew they must have been watching because it was just this short window. And tragically, Darlene does not survive this attack. But unlike Betty and David, there is a survivor in the story. Mike. He's able to get out of the car, get help just in time to survive. And he was able to get a pretty good look at the person who approached the car. And when he's strong enough to talk to the police, he's able to give them a bunch of details about that night. Which leads us to a clue.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, we now have a description of this attacker. According to Mike, the attacker was a white male on the stockier side, about 5, 8 and 200 pounds. He actually says he has a little bit of a pot belly. He also had short brown hair, almost like a military style cut, and a big face. Though Mike couldn't make out any specific details on his face, the light in.

[Kaylin Moore]

His face was obscuring everything.

[Morgan Abshur]

Hard to see. But detectives actually had another detail about this killer, and that came from none other than the killer himself. He actually called the Vallejo police a half hour or so after the attack that night. And here's what he said. Quote, I want to report a murder. If you will go one mile east on Columbus Parkway to the public park, you will find kids in a brown car. They were shot with a 9 millimeter Luger. I also killed those kids last year. Goodbye.

[Kaylin Moore]

And I remember reading like a, a really spooky detail about that call because it was the secretary at the police that answered the phone and she said when he said goodbye, it was more like goodbye. Like he sang it to her, which was just so specific and weird. And it, like, even to this day, really freaked her out.

[Morgan Abshur]

Eerie. No, I've, I've seen interviews with her somewhat recently and she feels she can still remember that voice just clear as day in her head. Unfortunately, though, he hangs up rather quickly after that, so she's not able to ask him any questions. And the whole thing was totally unexpected, right? Like he just randomly called. It's not like the police hit this on a daily basis with people who commit crimes, so they weren't able to record it either. But now they know what he looks like and they have an idea what he sounds like. Beyond that, though, the evidence is still super thin. Like I said, they weren't able to record it, but they were able to trace it back to a payphone. And this payphone was actually about one mile away from the police station. But the caller was long gone by the time they got there. And There was no evidence left behind. So the police are pretty much grasping at straws at this point. They look into a few of Darlene's friends, but nobody really matches the description or feels like a possible suspect. So it feels like this case is also heading towards going cold. Until about a month later, on Friday, August 1st, when the killer takes on a whole new dimension. On Friday, August 1st, we get our second clue when three different newspapers in the Bay Area receive identical copies of the exact same letter. Just like the phone call. The writer claims to be the one who killed David Faraday, Betty Lou Jensen, and Darlene Faron. He even gives some information to prove he's legitimate. He's the real deal. He's providing info that only the killer would know. He provides info on the type of ammo that were used in these murders, how many times the victims were shot, and even how the bodies looked after he killed them. But there's something else about. About these letters. Each one has this elaborate cipher, basically a secret message written in random symbols. And again, you guys will see these pictures on YouTube and on our social media. The symbols alone make this just feel so creepy, terrifying. I literally have the chills, just like envisioning it in my head. And along with this, the author claims that the secret message contains the answer to his identity. And there's a threat. He says that if the papers don't print the cipher and his letter by that afternoon, he will start killing people one by one until they do. And he doesn't sign his name? Of course not. Right? That'd be too easy. It's right there in the cipher for you guys. But he does leave one strange symbol. A circle with a cross through it.

[Kaylin Moore]

It's like a target. It's like when you're aiming on a gun. That's exactly what it looks like. That crosshair.

[Morgan Abshur]

The sniper symbol, a lot of people call it. So naturally, the newspaper editors are really freaked out by this. They don't want blood on their hands. So they decide to publish the letter and the cipher over the weekend. In the meantime, the police are calling the writers bluff. They publicly announce that they don't think the real killer wrote this letter. And they basically say, if it's really you, prove it. Which a little risky. Guys, prove it. That could mean a lot of things. They hope that you. He writes them another letter with more info. But to me, that's a taunt. Like, prove it. Yeah, you hope that this person wouldn't take it as, oh, well, prove it. I'll kill more people.

[Kaylin Moore]

Well, here's the thing. We talked about this with Golden State Killer, too. Like, the serial killers are paying attention.

[Morgan Abshur]

They're.

[Kaylin Moore]

They're reading the news. They're reading, like, what the cops are saying, and they are responding to those threats and those insults like it's not really someone you want to taunt.

[Morgan Abshur]

No. And luckily for them, there's no response. There's no other murders that are linked to the killer that weekend. So it seems. Maybe he is satisfied with the fact that the newspaper published these letters, but at the same time, the mission to decode this cipher, this major clue is on. The authorities have some of the best code breakers working on the Zodiac cipher. I'm talking people from the nsa, CIA, Naval intelligence, the best and brightest. You would think they spend about a week trying to crack this cipher, but it's not actually any of those organizations that decode it. It's actually a married couple named Donald and Betty Harden, who happened to see the puzzle in their local newspaper.

[Kaylin Moore]

That is just so wild to me. Like, that part of the story always gets me that it was not the government that was able to crack this. It was no military that could crack this. It was a history teacher and his wife.

[Morgan Abshur]

A history teacher and his wife. Big organizations, best and brightest got a week. They cracked this in two days. Betty was actually the one to make the breakthrough, which is pretty badass, considering she's just, you know, a puzzle nerd with no formal training.

[Kaylin Moore]

How did the government not try to hire her after that, is what I'm wondering?

[Morgan Abshur]

I mean, recruit them both, like, yeah, Don, actually, I saw on one source, he just loved doing puzzles and, like, did it throughout college.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Abshur]

So it's like they cracked this, and you don't bring them on in some regard, then. Okay, Seems like missed opportunity there.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Abshur]

But here's what dawn and Betty determine. The message says, quote, I like killing people because it is so much fun. It is more fun than killing wild game in the forest because man is the most dangerous animal of all to kill. Something gives me the most thrilling experience. It is even better than getting your rocks off with a girl. The best part of it is, is that when I die, I will be reborn in paradise, and they I have killed will become my slaves. I will not give you my name because you will try to slow me down or stop my collecting of slaves for the afterlife. This was then followed by a line of indecipherable gibberish.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, there's two things that are interesting about the cipher also. The first thing being that, like, when the cops asked the couple how they solved it. They were like, oh, each symbol correct, corresponds to a letter, which doesn't feel that hard, but I don't understand how NSA was not able to crack that. But outside of that. So there's this indecipherable gibberish at the bottom, but everything else spells out something. There's, like, this line, and they don't know if you rearrange the letters if it'll spell something out, but they kind of start getting a sense that it might be his name or, like, a clue as to who this person is. So they kind of keep it in their back pocket, but they're not able to make sense of this gibberish.

[Morgan Abshur]

I mean, the stuff that they do decipher is creepy enough to put everyone in a tailspin. Yeah, yeah. And while they're not able to decipher that last line, they got enough that they think they know that they're like, okay, this is bad. This is creepy. We need to get this to the authorities. So Donald actually calls the San Francisco Chronicle pretty much immediately after cracking this, and get this. They brush him off. They've actually been getting hundreds of people calling, and they don't want to hear answers over the phone. So they tell the Hardens to mail in their solution, and the police will check it out when they can.

[Kaylin Moore]

The clock is ticking at this point. Yeah, they're just telling them to use USPS snail mail. Yeah, we're gonna.

[Morgan Abshur]

We're gonna resort to snail mail.

[Kaylin Moore]

We'll get it in three weeks, and then we'll check it out.

[Morgan Abshur]

I mean, snail mail nowadays is tough.

[Kaylin Moore]

Takes so long back then.

[Morgan Abshur]

The thing is, too, the Hardens are the only ones that get this right? They're the only ones able to decipher it. It does take a few days to get it to police, and then it takes a few days for Naval Intelligence to actually verify it. And before the cipher can be verified, the killer writes another letter to newspapers, which arrives on August 7th. And this time, he introduces himself. He begins with the now iconic phrase, quote, this is the Zodiac speaking. The letter is way too long for us to read here. We would. We would need days with me reading it, but again, it has a ton of details that only the killer would know, again, proving he is legitimate. The letter goes on to describe how he shot Darlene and Mike through the passenger side window and how Mike managed to jump into the back seat. And he explained that he killed his first victims, David and Betty Lou, with a gun that had a flashlight taped to it five days later, on August 12, is when the Hardened Solution finally gets published in the paper too. And it becomes clear to the public that the Zodiac Killer is extremely dangerous. And this is made even clearer when a month and a half later, he strikes again.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, this did not slow him down at all. If anything, I feel like the fact that it took so long to decipher the cipher kind of like juiced him up and made him feel like he was invincible. Because on September 27, 19, 1969, Cecilia Ann shepherd and her friend Brian Hartnell were hanging out at Lake Berryessa. It's this really beautiful spot in Napa Valley. It's 35 miles north of Vallejo. And the two of them had recently finished their second year of university at Pacific Union College. But Cecilia decided to transfer somewhere else. So they were having basically a final goodbye. Brian suggested that they go have a picnic at Lake Berryessa. They get there around 4pm, they find this really perfect spot. It's like on this little peninsula that juts out into the water. Water's all around them and it's really quiet, but it's also close to their car. Like they're, they're not very far from the road. They hang out there for a couple hours. They don't really see anyone else, it's kind of just them. But then as they're talking, Cecilia notices someone in the distance. A guy, he's heavyset, he's stocky, she can tell he has brown hair. And she ends up saying something to Brian about it because it kind of freaks her out. But Brian is looking at her, the guy's behind him, he just brushes her off. I mean, a lot of people come to this area, it's gorgeous. But then she's watching the guy cuz she's nervous and he dips behind a tree and she tells Brian that. She's like, well, he just went. And he's hiding behind a tree now. And Brian's like, no, that confirmed what I thought. It's probably someone looking for a bathroom. There's no bathrooms here. He's probably just taking a leak behind the tree. And then all of a sudden Citizen Cecelia's eyes go really wide and she starts full on panicking because when the man steps out from behind the tree, as he's approaching them, he takes a hood and covers his face. It's this black executioner style hood and it sort of has this bib on the bottom of it that has a symbol and it's a circle with crosshairs. Through it also, Cecilia shouts, he's got a gun. The man approaches the couple and he tells Brian and Cecilia that he's a criminal on the run and he needs to use their car to get to Mexico. They start cooperating, hoping that he's just going to take their money and their keys and then totally be on his way. And Brian at this time, is actually really chatty with the man. He's trying to stay calm. He's also trying to see if he can help the man in any way. He tells the man that he has no money, but he's actually a pre law student, so maybe there's something he can do. If you're a criminal on the run, maybe there's something I can do for you. I can help you get to Mexico. He also asks this masked figure if there's bullets in his gun because he had heard that most criminals don't actually load their weapons. And he was curious. And the man opens the gun and shows that, like, it is fully loaded. He's not messing around.

[Morgan Abshur]

Wow.

[Kaylin Moore]

And at this point, the stranger tells the couple that he's going to tie them up and they let him because really, what else can they do at this point? Brian had heard that when you're being robbed, you shouldn't resist or things could get a lot worse. And he doesn't want himself or Cecilia to get hurt. And Brian even said that at that point, the thing he was the most scared of in that moment was the fact that if they got tied up, they might be left there overnight and it would be pretty cold. But then when they're not expecting it at all, the man pulls out a knife after they've been tied up and are left on the ground, and he starts stabbing the couple repeatedly. And then he heads back towards the cars and he drives away. But after this happens, Brian and Cecilia are still alive. They did not die from their wounds immediately. And luckily, kind of by chance, this man is fishing out on the lake and he hears them moaning in agony. Brian was actually strong enough to get up and stand on the shore to like, call out to see if there's any boats. This man sees him and he actually goes away in his boat. He. He keeps going past Brian. So Brian's like, oh my God, we're cooked. Like, there's. That's all I have strength for, really. Turns out the guy was going to get a phone so that he could call 911. Not that long later, a park ranger comes and is able to help them.

[Morgan Abshur]

Thank God.

[Kaylin Moore]

And I'm not sure. If any of you have seen the movie Zodiac by David Fincher. But Brian would later on in an interview say that the scene in the movie of the stabbing is exactly how it happened. He said that he couldn't script it better himself. Like, that movie does not exaggerate any parts of the. The murders. So if you are interested in seeing exactly how it went down, you can watch that scene in the movie. Because it's like pretty much an identical recreation of it.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, I pulled it up on YouTube to see after I was reviewing the script. And you left that note. And I was blown away by how real it feels.

[Kaylin Moore]

I mean, the first time I watched it, I had to turn it off. That is one of the most stressful scenes in a movie I've ever watched. I cannot imagine living through that. And then also rewatching the movie, which is what he did.

[Morgan Abshur]

It's just insane. Like the way that they're just. They're staring at each other, they're at like this impasse and Brian's trying to talk to him. Can I help you? And you know, I'm a pre law.

[Kaylin Moore]

It's the middle of the day. You would never expect it.

[Morgan Abshur]

Most beautiful day. And the, the. The look of this hood, this executioner style hood, it does look medieval and it is just eerie.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, it's wild. And as first responders get to the scene and they start helping Brian and Cecilia, the Napa police actually get a phone call from the Zodiac Killer. He says that he wants to report a murder. No, he says a double murder. And he gives Brian and Cecilia's location plus the model of their car. So there's no doubt that this is legit. Once again, he's giving the police details that only the killer would know. It is definitely him. But after he admits to the attack, he just goes quiet. And the cop that's listening to the phone call can actually hear that the phone was dropped and whoever was on the phone just walked away. And it gives them this idea that maybe they can trace this phone call. Because somewhere in Napa there's gotta be a payphone telephone that is off the hook. So a journalist who actually was listening to the police scanner heard that on the scanner and is like, I'm out. I can try to go find this phone. And he just starts driving around looking at all of the payphones.

[Morgan Abshur]

Oh, my God, chills.

[Kaylin Moore]

Finally finds one. And he's walking up to it shouting, can you hear me? Can you hear me? Because the police were still on the phone and. And that's how they figured out which payphone the Zodiac was calling from.

[Morgan Abshur]

I didn't hear that. Wow.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. But again, they get there and he's long gone. It helped them identify again. He was at a payphone really close by, but he's totally gone.

[Morgan Abshur]

Wow. Because he does find this phone that's off the hook. This is where we could have maybe gotten one of our bigger clues in this case, because they actually found a clear palm print on the phone receiver. The print was actually still wet when investigators found it. Which. That fact. Like, how fresh that was?

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. Cause I would think, okay, a palm print on a payphone. I mean, a hundred people probably used it a day all the time. So how would we know if it's really his?

[Morgan Abshur]

Still wet, but it was wet.

[Kaylin Moore]

Interesting.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah. Which makes these investigators assume it had to have been left by the killer. It's that fresh, hanging off the hook. But this is where I see sources kind of conflict a bit on the information. There's one source that says the print wasn't given enough time to dry, and it was actually then ruined in the lifting process. Another says it just never produced any matches. So unclear if if we have this print or not, but if it was ruined in the lifting process. This adds our first tally to the botch list.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, we're keeping track.

[Morgan Abshur]

This time today, we are keeping all the little bits. Four little bits. There's number one for us, friends. But investigators do have several clues left at this scene, though. They were able to find boot prints, tire tracks, and they were actually able to get four different descriptions of a suspect and his vehicle from other people that may have seen him that day. The killer actually left a message written on the couple's car with a black marker pen. It read, quote, Vallejo 12, 20, 68, comma, 7, 4, 69. And then it had 9-27-69, 6, 30 by knife. And it had the same distinctive symbol that the killer had written on his letters. The same symbol Cecilia and Brian noted on their attacker's hooded mask. A circle with a cross through it.

[Kaylin Moore]

So it was all the dates of the murders that had happened, all the dates, and then his symbol that's so.

[Morgan Abshur]

Horrifying, he wanted to make it crystal clear. Yeah, these are mine.

[Kaylin Moore]

These are mine.

[Morgan Abshur]

These are mine.

[Kaylin Moore]

Laying claim over them. And so I want to point out another element that kind of is making this guy so mysterious at this point. So we've kind of talked about this before with Golden State Killer, but serial killers tend to have a consistent killing method. Strangulation, shooting, poisoning, coming into your house and eating your food and killing the couple in a bed, which is kind of what the Golden State Killer was doing. But the Zodiac is killing people now in different ways. David Faraday, Betty Lou Jensen. It was a rifle. Darlene Fern, Mike Mageau. It was a point blank pistol with different ammo. He knew that the ammos were different, and now he had stabbed people.

[Morgan Abshur]

Unfortunately, Cecilia doesn't survive the attack, but she was alive for long enough after the attack that police could talk to her. And she does remember a crucial detail. She saw what he looked like before he put that hood on. And she describes him as being a white guy with brown hair, probably taller than 5, 10, and overweight. However, the cop never relays that Cecilia saw his face because he didn't think it would be important.

[Kaylin Moore]

And that's on botched market number two on the tally.

[Morgan Abshur]

Brian does luckily recover from this attack, and he is able to give a detailed description of their attacker and what happened. And like I said, the police do learn a lot from the crime scene. They know that the Zodiac parked right behind Brian's car, so they're able to take a plaster of those tire tracks they found. They can't really tell what kind of car it is, but they know that the treads are really worn down, which could help in identifying it later. I also saw some details that the car had different tires from the front and the back, which could make it then only a few models. And again, they did have a few eyewitnesses that saw someone suspicious. There were actually three girls that observed a man in a light colored car watching them multiple times.

[Kaylin Moore]

Wow. I don't think I knew that.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, it was really, really eerie. Every time they'd look up, they'd make eye contact with him. So multiple people saw a suspicious person there. And so they are able to get a color and kind of have a better understanding of what the car looks like based on all of this information. They also find very distinctive footprints by Brian's car leading to and from the crime scene. And they don't match Cecilia or Brian's. They actually discover that they're a ten and a half sized military boot. And by the depth of how far the boot sunk in, they're able to estimate that the killer weighs about 220 pounds.

[Kaylin Moore]

That's interesting that they're able to do it that way, because they can. Yeah, the imprint, heavy. The person was to imprint that deep into the dirt.

[Morgan Abshur]

Science.

[Kaylin Moore]

Wow, science. They didn't have much of it back then.

[Morgan Abshur]

They didn't have Much. They had that. And in the aftermath of this attack, the police do talk to a few potential suspects, but nobody is sounding alarm bells for them. So it seems again like the Zodiac is slow slipping away. But only a few weeks go by before he claims another victim.

[Kaylin Moore]

So before we dive into the next part of the story, I want to point out an element that is making the Zodiac killer really mysterious to police. It's something that's like making it increasingly difficult to solve this case. And that's the fact that typically serial killers will have a consistent killing method. We talked about this with Golden State Killer. You knew when it was a Golden State crime. He was very similar in the way that he was addressing all these, like, crime scenes.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, that M.O.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, sometimes it's tranquilation, shooting, poisoning. But in each instance, Zodiac is doing these murders in, in different ways. So the first one, David Faraday, Betty Lou Jensen, that person, the Zodiac used a rifle. The attack on Darlene and Mike, it was point blank pistol shots. And then it was a stabbing with Cecilia and Brian. He stabbed the people on the beach. But one thing that is similar about all these cases is that they're couples. The police at least have that to go off of. Like, maybe he does have an M.O. maybe that's part of his psyche. Right? Like he doesn't like couples or something about people in love that really offends him. But the next time he commits a crime, he doesn't go for a couple. On the night of October 11, 1969, a guy named Paul Stein was driving a cab around San Francisco. He's a 29 year old student working towards his PhD at San Francisco State. So he spends his nights and weekends driving a cab, just trying to make a little extra money. And that evening, Paul's in the city's theater district and he's just picking up people as they get out of shows. But at 9:40pm he gets a call from dispatch. Someone else needs a ride. And on his way to the pickup spot, he gets stuck in a little bit of traffic. And while his cab is stopped, there's actually a man that approaches him and asks for a lift. Paul figures might as well especially. This is probably just going to be a quick ride. I can get it, maybe go grab the other person. But the man has Paul stop on a quiet street before they reach his destination between a couple of trees. And then the man pulls out a gun. And without any warning, he shoots Paul in the head and kills him instantly. But as this is happening, there's actually a group of Teenagers in the house across the street, and they happen to be peering out of the window at this exact moment. And they watch all of this happen. They call the police. They describe the suspect over the phone as a large white male wearing a dark jacket. Something gets crossed along the way. There's a wire that gets crossed at some point, and when the officer taking the report puts out the call, he actually tells them to look out for a black man. Within two minutes, a pair of officers arrive on the scene. Market. It's botched. And wait till you hear this, because within two minutes, these officers arrive in the area. Two officers get to the scene. They see a husky white male walking away from them kind of in, like, a dark area, because where the murder took place, there's actually street lights everywhere. But walking away from the crime scene, they see in the shadows there's this husky white guy, and they actually stop him, and they talk to him. They want to know if this guy's seen anything suspicious. They have no idea that they are almost certainly face to face with the Zodiac Killer also at this point. This is a huge story in California. I mean, think about it like the ciphers had been in the papers. People are starting to lock their doors at night. People are terrified of the Zodiac. These cops probably came into contact with him and let him go. By the time the correct description goes out that it was a husky white guy, it's not a black guy that they're looking for. That man is gone without a trace. They have no idea which direction he went.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, I don't need to say it. You saw me add the tally. If you're watching on YouTube, botched column gets another mark.

[Kaylin Moore]

So shortly after that happens, San Francisco homicide Detective Dave Toski and his partner Bill Armstrong, they arrive on the scene, and they assume immediately that this is probably a cab robbery gone wrong. I mean, everything about the crime scene kind of points to that. And as they look at the crime scene, they see that the victim's wallet and keys are missing. But when forensic experts from the crime lab get there a few minutes later, they actually find some very strange things about the scene that suggest otherwise.

[Morgan Abshur]

And that brings us to the bloody prints found on the outside of the cab, likely belonging to the killer. Now, this is long before the day of automated print matching. So if investigators wanted to find a match, it would have had to have been done manually and with visually inspecting each print laid on top of each other.

[Kaylin Moore]

Can you imagine how tedious that is?

[Morgan Abshur]

No, no, I.

[Kaylin Moore]

Trying to find fingerprints that match and going through Thousands. I can't.

[Morgan Abshur]

How are they even cataloged? And. And that only worked if they were cataloged, if those prints were on file already. And obviously, this is a long shot. We all hear how this sounds. Right. But this is still such a valuable asset to have. If they can get a killer, it helps them ID and really corroborate that they were at this scene and did this. And I will say there's some conflicting sources that I saw. I know. Caitlin, in your research, you came across palm print.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, it always had. I've seen that it was a palm print and that the Zodiac said either on the phone or in a letter that he always wore gloves or, like, finger covers. Yeah, finger caps.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah. And that was really interesting. And so I saw in some sources that they did find bloody fingerprints. Interesting. So a little conflicting, and even more so conflicting when we get this additional info after detectives talk to the teenagers that witness this whole thing. So the kids are able to give detectives a more detailed description of the killer, and they also describe his behavior afterwards. They say he's about five' eight and stocky, between 25 and 30 years old, with a reddish blonde crew cut, and he was wearing glasses. I will say this is a little bit different than everyone else saying he had brown hair. When you Google Zodiac Killer, the sketch police drew from this is one of the most common images that actually pops up. And again, you will see it. But it's even the main image on his Wikipedia article. And except for the hair color, it's basically in line with all of the other descriptions of the Zodiac so far.

[Kaylin Moore]

I mean, reddish blonde is not so far from light brown, and it's dark.

[Morgan Abshur]

There's like a cross street lamp across street. You know, it's easy to get your color off a little bit. But this next part is something that really interests me in this case and something that the subreddit on it goes in on a lot. The teenagers actually say that they observed the killer wiping down parts of the car's interior, places like the dash. They also saw him going to the exterior front doors, and they say he was leaning over the victim and kind of like, they couldn't really tell what he was doing, but definitely, like, leaning over the victim and almost rummaging him a little bit. But because this crime is so unlike the others, the police don't even make the connection between this and the Zodiac's other crimes, at least not until he makes it crystal clear for them. On October 15, 1969, four days after Paul Stine was killed, the San Francisco Chronicle runs the newest installment of the Zodiac killer's letters right on the front page. In this recent letter to prove that he really was responsible for Paul's murder, he includes a piece of Paul's bloody shirt.

[Kaylin Moore]

So that's what he was doing in the front seat over the victim.

[Morgan Abshur]

That is a piece probably what those teenagers observed. He takes credit for killing Paul, brags that the police could have caught him if they had properly searched the area. And the most chilling part of the letter though, is how it ends. The Zodiac says, quote, schoolchildren make nice targets. I think I shall wipe out a school bus some morning. Just shoot out the front tire and then pick off the kitties as they come bouncing off. Which of course sends people into even more of a full blown panic because at this point, nobody knows what the Zodiac is capable of. He is going to insane degrees of crime. And it's.

[Kaylin Moore]

And he keeps changing his M.O.

[Morgan Abshur]

Unpredictable.

[Kaylin Moore]

Who's to say that he won't go after children?

[Morgan Abshur]

Completely unpredictable and clearly off his rocker.

[Kaylin Moore]

So thankfully, the Zodiac doesn't follow through on that threat. But a couple weeks later, on November 10, 1969, the San Francisco Chronicle receives two more letters from him. And there are some interesting developments. The first letter is accompanied by a brand new cipher. This one has 340 characters and it becomes known as the 340 cipher. It is a lot harder to solve to the point where no one can crack it. It's absolutely not getting solved. And it's not like the last time where two people reading the newspaper, two hobbyist cipher crackers figure it out. This one actually took 51 years to solve and it was only recently cracked in 2020. And it, it took a computer program to do it. It was these like amateur code breakers again. But they were plugging it into the, the computer, this like computer program to solve it. It was these people named David Orenchak, who was a software developer in Virginia, Jarl Van Eck, who's a Belgian computer programmer, and Sam Blake, who's an Australian mathematician. Even when this is solved, it really doesn't offer much useful information that would have helped the investigation. It's just another like taunting letter. I just want to say too, I want to make a note here on the cipher. When they solved the cipher, they realized that it was not hard to solve because this guy was a genius mastermind. No, he did the cipher wrong and he spelled a lot of words incorrectly. So even as they were trying to make the cipher work, they were like, well, paradise is spelled wrong. So, like, he would spell things like P, A, R, A, D, I, C, E. And he also just, like, wouldn't follow that. He would start a pattern. And he didn't finish the pattern. He would, like, change it. So some people are like, oh, my God, it took 51 years to solve a cipher. Yeah. If anyone just, like, invents a random cipher, it's going to take forever to crack. So just wanted to make a note of that. It has nothing to do with his, like, genius. No.

[Morgan Abshur]

It's just the fact that it's nonsensical.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yes. But it's actually the second letter that he sends that gets a lot of people talking. Because in that Zodiac claimed that he had killed seven people. So far, however, police only knew of five confirmed victims. Remember, it was David and Betty Lou, Darlene and Cecilia, and Paul Stein. It's possible that the Zodiac was counting Brian and Mike, Remember, the two guys that survived the attacks. Maybe he didn't know their status at that point, so he was counting them as seven. But the police start to worry that maybe there's actually more people out there. And so they start looking into this unsolved case From August of 1969, when these two teenage girls were stabbed to death. That would mean the Zodiac Killer murdered in July, August, September, and October of that year. However, they are able to quickly rule out that it was not him that did that crime. The case would go on to be solved a couple of years later. Also, he. He liked to claim his kills. Like, he liked to tell the police exactly which ones were his. So because he hadn't done that, maybe they also started thinking he wasn't responsible for that one. Ultimately, the consensus at the time seems to be that the Zodiac started taking credit for more kills to make himself seem more intimidating.

[Morgan Abshur]

I could see it.

[Kaylin Moore]

And there's also something else to these letters that we haven't really talked about yet, and that's that the Zodiac says he's not going to take credit for any more murders. He says that he's going to make them seem like robberies gone wrong, accidents, basically random killings, like he did with Paul Stein. Crimes that nobody would know if it were him. If he didn't admit to doing. So, maybe he was a little bit worried that he was getting close to being caught. I mean, the Zodiac admits in one letter that he spoke face to face with two police officers after killing Paul Stine. But there's definitely reason to still be worried about him, because the Zodiac claims in those letters as well that he's now built A massive bomb. He even describes for police how he made it. Obviously, the police have to take that threat seriously as well. But for the next month and a half, he's pretty quiet. He's not contacting police the amount that he was before. It's possible that the Zodiac was true to his word and any other crimes he committed, he disguised so that the police wouldn't know it was him. So they looked totally random. But police eventually do get another letter, and that hints at something else. And they start to think that maybe he was looking for a way out. The Zodiac wrote This letter on December 20, 1970, the one year anniversary of when he murdered the David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen. And instead of sending it to a newspaper, he mails it to a lawyer named Melvin Belly. The way the story goes is Melvin received a call one day. He was actually out on vacation, but his housekeeper picked up and it was the Zodiac killer talking about how it was his birthday and he had to kill again because it was his birthday. And this call came in like December or January. But that call was, if you watch the Zodiac movie too, like, there's a lot of emphasis that's played placed on that call happening, that it must have been the Zodiac and we must know his birthday now, because that's when he called and he said it was his birthday.

[Morgan Abshur]

Okay.

[Kaylin Moore]

That call was traced to a mental institution. That call was not from the Zodiac.

[Morgan Abshur]

Wow.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. So you can disregard that when it comes to like, oh, do we have his birthday? But Melvin does get a letter from the Zodiac. And this letter is strange because it has a little bit of a different tone. Melvin actually was pretty vocal about wanting to represent him if he ever turned himself in. And so when he gets this letter, the Zodiac is not bragging about murders like he was doing in every other letter. He's actually asking for Melvin's help. He says that he's struggling to keep his compulsions in check and he's afraid that he's going to lose control. And Melvin is willing to engage in this. So he reaches out to the Zodiac through the press, basically telling him like, hey, name the time and the place and I'll be there. But the Zodiac doesn't take Melvin up on this. Instead, he goes quiet again. And then three months later, he resurfaces. And again, it's kind of in this different way. On March 22, 1970, he reportedly kidnaps a 22 year old woman named Kathleen Johns and her 10 month old daughter. Kathleen, who was seven months pregnant at the time, was making a 500 mile road trip to a Bay Area city called Petaluma. And she's going there to visit her sick mother. Around midnight, Kathleen was driving down a quiet two lane highway when a driver kind of pulls up behind her and starts flashing his lights at her. He pulls up in his light colored sedan next to her and he yells that her right rear wheel is wobbling. Kathleen has young kids in the car. She's pregnant. So she's like, oh, okay, like let me pull over. And the man parks behind her and he offers to help fix her tire. She's kind of weirded out, but also like, that's a very nice thing to do. So she's like, thank you, lets him do it. Kathleen gets back in her car and she pulls off of the side of the road back onto the freeway. And as she does so, her car starts immediately wobbling. And next thing she knows, the entire wheel pops off of the car. So clearly this man was not trying to fix the car. He was probably unscrewing the wheel from the vehicle.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, he created the problem entirely.

[Kaylin Moore]

Kathleen doesn't necessarily think that this is suspicious though. They both pull over again and he's like, oh, looks like it was worse than I thought it was. Let me take you to a gas station up the road. And so she agrees. She also has no other option. What is she going to do? It's a middle of the night, she's just on this like empty road and.

[Morgan Abshur]

She'S got a little one and seven months pregnant.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. So she takes her daughter out of the car. She ends up climbing into his passenger seat and she just puts her baby on her lap. And they're driving. They're like not really chit chatting. He's got this weird aura about him. And Kathleen watches through, through her window as they drive straight past a gas station. He doesn't even attempt to stop. For the next several hours, this man just drives them around aimlessly. He doesn't really say much to her other than how he's going to kill her and her daughter. At one point, the abductor goes a wrong way onto a highway ramp. And that's when Kathleen really sees an opportunity to try and escape. He ends up stopping the car so that he can back up and get onto the freeway again. And she jumps out, out with her daughter. She ends up hiding in a nearby vineyard. She says that the guy climbs out of the car and starts looking for her with a big flashlight. But he eventually runs away when a passing truck stops and is trying to figure out what's going on? The trucker then helps Kathleen flag down a female motorist because she tells him she's not getting back in the car with a man. She just is, like, so freaked out at this point. And this woman that they flagged down ends up taking Kathleen to a police station in a small town called Patterson.

[Morgan Abshur]

She.

[Kaylin Moore]

She starts telling the police officer on duty what happened, and she sees a wanted poster on the wall, and she starts screaming, that's him. That's him. The officer turns around trying to figure out who she's talking about. And it's a drawing of the Zodiac Killer, because, remember, it's a huge story. Like, every police station had a picture of him in the. In their office.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah. It's plastered everywhere.

[Kaylin Moore]

Plastered everywhere. And she sees it, and she's like, that's the guy. Officers rush out to where she says she left her car. It's somewhere along Highway 132, about an hour and a half away. They're trying to see if there's any other evidence in the area, and get this. They find her car burnt to a crisp. Someone had, like, covered it in gasoline and set it on fire. They start wondering if the Zodiac went back to the car to get rid of it and make sure that there was no trace of evidence. Because, I mean, remember, there was a palm print found on Paul Stein's car.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

Maybe he was paranoid that he left a fingerprint behind and he was like, let me just tore. Torched the whole thing.

[Morgan Abshur]

Not taking any chances anymore.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Abshur]

Now, I will say some people think Kathleen wasn't actually abducted by the Zodiac Killer, but by someone else. Or maybe she made up the whole thing entirely. And I always err on the side of believing the victim, like Kathleen, was clearly traumatized by this event. But I do want to get into some of the theories that I saw. So some of the skeptics actually point to the original police report, which has no mentioning of him threatening to kill Kathleen or her daughter. It just says he was, quote, quite friendly with her, did not make any advances towards her or threats towards her, and when asked if he was going to stop, he would merely elude the question and start talking about something else. They also point out a specific detail that Kathleen said she escaped into a vineyard, but the only vineyards in the area were close to where she originally started. Stopped her car, which made people speculate that maybe she made this up and just assumed there were more vineyards around where she hopped out. Some theorized that it was an elaborate insurance scheme to get money for her car or that she was looking for publicity in some way. But that begs the question, why would a pregnant woman with a 10 month old baby go through all that trouble for an insurance scheme to get attention as she's on her way to take care of her sick mom?

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, right.

[Morgan Abshur]

I don't think she made it up. I mean, if you read the actual police report, the very next line talks about her being extremely frightened. So I'm not sure how you jump from, he was so pleasant to, she was really frightened. It just. It seems confusing for me. And this is such a niche like note for anyone in the medical field. And if you've used the program EPIC to document your medical notes, you kind of have these, like, dot phrases that you just habitually will type in, like a patient's chart. And I was almost like questioning, you know, myself, and I'm like, maybe the officer just had like a continuous phrase. He would kind of be like, non threatening, wasn't alluding anything. And maybe that's how that got in. I don't know. Regardless, I don't think she made this up. I'm way more inclined to go with the next theory, which is that maybe the Zodiac just couldn't go through it. He was clearly driving around for an extended period of time, kind of didn't know what his next move seemingly was. And maybe killing this pregnant woman and her little baby was just a step too far for even him. Kathleen was so scared, so traumatized, she jumped out of a car into a ditch seven months pregnant. Me personally, if I had just broken down a little ways back and there were vineyards, I'm gonna assume any ditch and greenery could be a vineyard.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. It's also dark. Yeah.

[Morgan Abshur]

I'm not gonna be like, oh, my God, no, this is a field with wheat. Like, she was so scared. And we know trauma and all of that can change people's memories and recollection in their brain. So I'm gonna give Kathleen the benefit of the doubt here, and if that isn't enough for you. Well, the Zodiac Killer does come forward and take credit for this kidnapping, but.

[Kaylin Moore]

We know he was taking credit for a lot of stuff that he maybe didn't do.

[Morgan Abshur]

We do. So the Zodiac Killer writes another letter to the San Francisco Chronicle a few months after Kathleen's kidnapping in July 1970. He confesses to it, and he doesn't offer many details that could confirm this too, which I think is really interesting.

[Kaylin Moore]

Right. Because normally he has all this information that only the killer would know, but in this one, he doesn't really offer any of that information that only he would know.

[Morgan Abshur]

And obviously, all of these previous letters have been published. So at this point, how are we deciphering? Is this Zodiac, or is this someone taunting the press?

[Kaylin Moore]

Right.

[Morgan Abshur]

And he basically just says, yeah, I did it. No other details. And so some do really speculate, like, this is just another one that he's taking credit for to get more attention, or people are starting to toy with the press and kind of the fact that they've enabled all of this by publishing all these letters. And after that, the Zodiac goes quiet for a few months. And then with Halloween approaching, he decides to get a lot more personal. He writes to the San Francisco Chronicles lead reporter Paul Avery. Avery has covered the Zodiac Killer a lot, but he doesn't exactly seem intimidated by him. In one article from the year before, Avery actually called the Zodiac killer, quote, a clumsy criminal, a liar, and possibly a latent homosexual.

[Kaylin Moore]

And read that he called him a latent homosexual because he talked to a criminologist that said the way the Zodiac held the knife at the Lake Berryessa stabbing was indicative he was struggling with his manhood.

[Morgan Abshur]

Okay.

[Kaylin Moore]

And Paul Avery, who was kind of known of, like, wanting to sell newspapers, just kind of writing the most salacious story so he could sell newspapers, was like, print it. Send it out. And then also after this happened, when the Zodiac wrote a letter basically threatening Paul Avery, reporters around San Francisco started wearing pins that said, I am not Paul Avery, in case they were out. And the Zodiac saw them so that he would know Paul Avery started wearing those buttons as well.

[Morgan Abshur]

Paul, you did this.

[Kaylin Moore]

I know you. Yeah. You can't taunt these people.

[Morgan Abshur]

No, I would. I would have been wearing one of these buttons, too. And as you said, like, Avery does start to take him a lot more seriously after this because of this direct threat on his life. This message is printed in the newspaper, and it's picked up all over the country. And it actually leads to a massive development in this case because the story catches the attention of an anonymous reader down in Riverside, California, hundreds of miles away from where the Zodiac has been killing his victims. And this reader tells Avery to look into a murder. One that happened back in October of 1966. And it's one that he believes was was the Zodiac's first real kill. Summer's here, and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe, discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands, like Mango Skims, Princess Polly, and Madewell. It's easy too, with free shipping and free returns in store. Order, pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app.

[Kaylin Moore]

So the victim that reporter Paul Avery is looking into was named Sherry Jo Bates. She was an 18 year old riverside City College student who had been killed in 1966. She was popular, she was really pretty. She had these striking blue eyes and blonde hair. And her dream was to be an airline stewardess, which we talked about back in the day. You had to be very beautiful and very single to be a stewardess. On the afternoon of October 30, 1966, Sherry goes to the library to study. She gets there around 6pm, but she never makes it home that night. And the next morning she's actually found dead in an alleyway near the library, less than 100ft from her car. She had been viciously beaten and then stabbed to death. But Sherry fought back, which gave investigators this crucial evidence to examine because they discovered skin and hair were underneath her fingernails. And forensics revealed that to belong to a brown haired white man. There were also footprints in the area. They were between the sizes of 8 and 10, and they were from a military grade shoe. Nobody in the area saw this crime happen firsthand, but a few witnesses believed they heard a woman screaming sometime between 10:15 and 10:30 the night before. But even though the Police talked to 75 people in the area within 24 hours of Sherry's murder, they just cannot find a good suspect. However, a month after Sher's murder, the Riverside Press Enterprise newspaper and the police department get something really interesting, a letter. And here's some excerpts from that letter. He says she was young and beautiful, but now she's battered and dead. She is not the first, she will not be the last. I am not sick. I am insane. But that will not stop the game. And one thing that's interesting here is he refers to it as the game. And in the first cipher, he referred to humans as the most dangerous animal. That's actually a reference to the most dangerous game, the book. And that kind of became a clue too, that whoever was doing this was referencing that specific piece of literature. So he sends a letter and he also refers to it as a game. And that really gets played. Police starting to think that maybe this is related to the Zodiac.

[Morgan Abshur]

It's eerily similar.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. Paul Avery looks into this and he decides it sounds a heck of a lot like the Zodiac killer. So on November 15, 1970, Avery in True Avery fashion. He writes a big story about it. Again, he was kind of known to, like, want to sell newspapers. So basically every update that was coming in about the Zodiac he was writing a big paper on, but he really believed that he had found a connection. He doesn't really contact the police about this, though, which is interesting. He just goes straight into writing the story. He was doing his own investigative work. It in some ways, kind of botches the investigation because you can mark this as. Because it's. There's just not a lot of cross referencing going on. And that's always been a problem in this case. Right. Is like reporters and police and different precincts not talking to each other.

[Morgan Abshur]

That. And you are giving away your cards.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah.

[Morgan Abshur]

You have this info, you might have this connection, you might have this evidence that could lead you to someone, and you're telling him wide out in the open here you are not connecting it to the police. So you don't know what damage that could be doing.

[Kaylin Moore]

And this is someone who loves to take credit for murders. So he writes this paper, and there's no reaction from the Zodiac Killer, at least not immediately. But five months later, on March 13, 1971, he sends a letter to the LA Times. In this letter, he takes credit for what he calls his, quote, riverside activity. But similar to the case of Kathleen getting into the car with him, he doesn't have any information that was not published in the newspapers. He doesn't have anything that only the killer would know. And so it's still kind of up in the air as to if that was one that he actually committed or if it's just one that he wanted to take credit for, to kind of add to his this, like, demented ego he had. So In July of 1971, it's not that the case is going cold, but there's just, like, not any leads to follow on who this guy could be. But this guy named Don Cheney actually contacts the police in Torrance, California, which is just south of la, and he wants to talk to them about the Zodiac Killer. So the police go and they meet him in person, and he tells them he's pretty sure he knows who it is. And that's how we finally get a name in this investigation. He says the man's name is Arthur Lee Allen.

[Morgan Abshur]

So who is Arthur Lee Allen? Well, according to Don, he first met Arthur back in 1962 through Arthur's younger brother, Ron. Don and Ron went to Cal Poly Pomona in Southern California together. And Arthur, who's about 29 at that time hangs out with them a lot. They like to have beers and go hunting together. They all end up living in the Bay Area in the late 60s, specifically Vallejo. And as a reminder, this is where The Zodiac's first two confirmed attacks were on December 20, 1968, and on July 4, 1969. And just a couple of weeks after that first attack, right around New Year's Day, 1971, Don went to go hang out with Arthur at his apartment. Don notes that Arthur is a big fan of science fiction. And when he goes there that day, Don notices that Arthur has a sci fi magazine on the table. But it's flipped open to a particular story, one called the man from Zodiac. At the time, it didn't really mean a whole lot to Don, since the killer wouldn't refer to himself as the Zodiac Killer until later that year. But the image really stuck in Don's mind because Arthur was also acting really strange that day. He had recently been fired from his job as a teacher and was talking about a career change. He wanted to become a private investigator. Don points out to Arthur that, hey, you have zero experience, and you don't really have a network to draw from either. But Arthur said that doesn't really matter because he can create his own cases. Specifically, he says he'll go after victims at night using a flashlight attached to a gun barrel, and he'll pick victims at random to really throw police off. Mind you, this was 12 days after the attack on David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen. So the story would have been all over the news, especially locally. So it is totally possible that Arthur just saw the headlines and was picking out details from that. Except he takes this all a step further and adds something else, one detail that wouldn't be widely known until much later. Arthur says he would also write strange letters to confuse the police even more. And this little detail. And he would sign them Zodiac. And you guys are like, what? That's not all. Arthur also talks about going after children by shooting the tires off a school bus and killing them as they came, quote, bouncing out, which is the same language the Zodiac Killer would later use. On top of that, Arthur apparently showed Don a watch he had just gotten the name of the brand Zodiac, and its symbol is the same one the Zodiac Killer used to sign his letters. A circle with a cross inside that gunshot.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. So the cops start thinking that Don is on to something, and detectives down in Southern California pass the word on to Dave Toski and Bill Armstrong, the San Francisco homicide detectives who've been investigating Zodiac since The Paul Stine murder. They agree that Arthur Lee Allen is definitely worth looking into. Turns out he's working as a chemist at an oil refinery in the Bay Area. Didn't end up being a private investigator. So they get in touch with an officer in the Vallejo Police Department named Jack Mullinax. And he's been working on the Zodiac case too. Mullinax decides to look Arthur up. Turns out he matches the Zodiac's physical descriptions as well, but he's a bit taller. He's around 6 foot rather than 5 8, but remember, that's how tall Cecilia shepherd estimated him to be. He's also around 230 to 240 pounds, which is slightly heavier than people estimated him to be. But he's a white male with light brown hair and brown eyes. He's 37 years old. Most people estimated that the Zodiac was around 40. He's definitely close enough to warrant a further investigation. So on August 4, 1971, Toschi, Armstrong and Mullinax decide to drop in on Arthur at work. And as soon as they're face to face with Arthur, the detectives are shocked because he looks exactly like how they imagined Zodiac would look. And they get to talking. Arthur ends up telling them that he's already been questioned as a potential suspect in the Zodiac cases. And it was after the attack on Cecilia Shepard and Brian Hartnell at Lake Berryessa on September 27, 1969. At that time, he kind of slipped through the cracks because. Because it seemed like he had a pretty solid alibi. He said that he liked to go skin diving. Basically, it's scuba diving without an air tank. And he was at a place called Salt Point State park that day, which is 90 miles from Lake Berryessa. So he's like, that couldn't have been me. I was too far away. Plus, he said that he had talked to his neighbor when he got home, which was around 4pm before the murder had taken place. However, even before the police ask, Arthur says, well, that neighbor's dead, so you can't talk to them. They died. Actually, get this, a week after the murder took place.

[Morgan Abshur]

Of course they did.

[Kaylin Moore]

And there's no way at this point to verify that alibi. Also, like I mentioned, he's kind of like giving up all this information without the police really asking him. So they're kind of sitting in silence. And Arthur goes, oh, also, I had some bloody knives on me in the car that day. And they were from a chicken that I had killed.

[Morgan Abshur]

No. And I feel all of this combined The. The fact they didn't verify his alibi, the fact that he had bloody knives in his car. This deserves one.

[Kaylin Moore]

You can mark it as botched. Yeah. Not looking into him more.

[Morgan Abshur]

It deserves one at least.

[Kaylin Moore]

Well, get this, because Arthur also admits to being in Riverside in 1966, which is when Sherry Jo Bates was killed. And as they're interviewing him, they notice that he's also wearing that Zodiac brand watch that Don Cheney mentioned, a watch that is kind of famously used for skin diving. Like, when I went on the Zodiac website to look at their watches, they literally have a watch called the Skin Diver. And this is all very suspicious, but it's not enough to make an arrest. It might just be a ton of coincidences, but now they're able to look into him a little bit more that they're revisiting him as a suspect. So over the next year, they decide they're gonna still follow a couple other leads. Like, there's just not really enough on Arthur to arrest him. Even though they do want to follow that lead a little bit further, they end up looking into 100 other suspects. And even though all of these other people's names come up, like, really, no one is. Has enough going for them that, like, it's definitely them. And then in September of 1972, which is over a year after they talked to Arthur at the refinery, his name comes back up because, get this, his own brother Ron, asks the investigators to look into him some more. And that's kind of all the prodding that the police need. Like, at this point, you have so many people who are close to this person calling and being like, you have to look into them more. Like, this is getting too weird.

[Morgan Abshur]

Close friend. And now brother.

[Kaylin Moore]

And now brother. So on September 14th, they finally get a warrant to search Arthur's trailer, where he's currently. Currently living in Santa Rosa. When the police arrive, the property manager actually says that they just missed him. But still, they're able to get into the trailer, and they look around, and they find a lot of disturbing stuff in this trailer. There's dissected squirrels and other dead animals in the freezer, which, actually, he was going to school for biology at the time, and he did have permission from the state to dissect animals, and so they found that permission. I didn't realize you need permission. It's actually good. Good thing that you need permission to dance animals.

[Morgan Abshur]

God, you guys. My face. This whole time, as Kaylin's been saying this, like, we all know, like, one of the more traditional signs is People that hurt animals.

[Kaylin Moore]

And it's like, yeah.

[Morgan Abshur]

Are these actually the squirrels you got from the bio lab, or where did they come from, Arthur?

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. Also in this trailer, there's a collection of sadomasochistic pornography. But this is still not enough clues that incriminate him, basically. And it's frustrating for the investigators. After about 45 minutes of searching, they still don't really have enough to get him on anything. Arthur comes home, they take his fingerprints. They have him do a handwriting sample, too, because they have all of these letters that the Zodiac wrote, so they have all these handwriting samples that they can compare to, but it's not a match. Like, nothing he gives them is a match with anything collected from the crime scenes or the letters. So they leave without making an arrest.

[Morgan Abshur]

That handwriting sample, obviously a big part of this case, and you all know the Reddit sub on this one has a lot to say about it.

[Kaylin Moore]

They do.

[Morgan Abshur]

Arthur actually gets his own little acronym. A lot of the online sleuths call him ALA and there's a lot of people that actually question his handwriting. Some think it does look similar to the Zodiacs, but it's different enough that experts don't think it's the same person. But you have to wonder, like, did he disguise this? You know, me, in my rational head, I would assume that he'd be smart enough to change his handwriting if police come knocking on his door. And, hey, can you give us a sample? Like, you know, that all of these letters have been published. It's. It's common knowledge.

[Kaylin Moore]

Well, also, after he gave the handwriting sample, the police checked in with either his brother or friend. I can't remember who. And they were like, yeah, sorry. We looked into him. The handwriting didn't match. And they go, well, you know, he's ambidextrous.

[Morgan Abshur]

Right, exactly. Did they go back and get another one with the other hand?

[Kaylin Moore]

They did, and it also didn't match.

[Morgan Abshur]

I think he's faking it. Another really interesting point in this is people note that Arthur actually lived only 150 yards from the restaurant where one of the victims, Darlene Farren, worked. So they kind of draw that connection. However, a lot of people don't think he was the Zodiac, and they point to the reason they think this, because he didn't commit any violent crimes. And I'm using air quotes, right, because everyone's definition of violent might be a little different. And there is credible evidence that Arthur actually did inappropriately touch Don Chaney's daughter during a camping trip in 1967. And Arthur was later convicted as a pedophile when he was arrested in 1974 for molesting a young boy. And he was sent to prison for three. Three years.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. One thing to mention, too, is he was fired from multiple jobs for being inappropriate with young girls. And maybe because it was the 70s, I really don't know. But the times he was fired from jobs, they never filed police reports. They quietly fired him. They thought he just had a problem. And no one thought to contact the police to let them know, like, this man is a threat.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah. And if we think back to Lake Berryessa, the suspect, the person of interest that day was seen parked nearby, those three girls outside just watching them, and then went after a couple. Like, there's just some eerie connections here that kind of make you feel like it's more than just a coincidence. And of note, after 1974, there were no confirmed Zodiac letters. There were also no murders linked to the Zodiac during that time either.

[Kaylin Moore]

I will say here the police have basically said all of the suspects they had are bad, but Arthur Leigh Allen is the least bad of all the suspects, which is why that's the one that we chose to cover today. There's other suspects we could get into, but the more research I did, there's just not really enough that connects anyone to these crimes.

[Morgan Abshur]

There's a lot of theories on this. Some point to the journalists, some point to people.

[Kaylin Moore]

Oh, I have a whole conspiracy theory.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, there's so, so, so many. And if you really want to get into that rabbit hole, the subreddit is a great place to start.

[Kaylin Moore]

You know, there's a theory, someone said that this is on a Generation Y podcast where they interviewed someone who said for some of the murders that the Zodiac claimed to have done, police were actually looking into other suspects. But once they heard that the Zodiac Killer, you know, the letters were coming in and the ciphers, they stopped pursuing the suspects that they thought, and they just started trying to link it to the Zodiac because it was a huge story. And remember, they're trying to sell papers. It's. Yeah, it's really becoming this big, sensationalized thing in a way that it didn't need to become. And that's just. Some people think it was like making police want it to be the Zodiac or journalists wanting all these crimes to be connected to the Zodiac. So they were trying to find ways to connect him to things. And we know that he liked to claim murders that he didn't necessarily do. So there's one theory I read that he Maybe only did one or two of the crimes and then just took credit for a bunch of the other ones. Because at the end of the day, he took credit for 37 murders, and we have maybe five that he really did.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah. And I would be very curious, too, within this time frame, how many letters overall, these newspapers got, because there were a lot.

[Kaylin Moore]

He was so. I don't want to say needy, but he contacted the papers and the reporters so much to the point where they had to stop publishing the letters because it was just becoming too much. And there are still two ciphers out there that have not been decoded.

[Morgan Abshur]

Hey, so one of you in the Cluminati.

[Kaylin Moore]

No.

[Morgan Abshur]

At what it takes.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah, Literally. Cluminati. Feed that into ChatGPT and tell me if you get a hit. Because, like, there has to be some way to solve this at this point. There's too much AI out there.

[Morgan Abshur]

Can you imagine if someone in our community cracked this?

[Kaylin Moore]

Please.

[Morgan Abshur]

Okay.

[Kaylin Moore]

Please. After all this time, decades have gone by. There's. It's still unsolved. We're not really any closer to solving this than we had been at the time that these murders were happening. Except in 2002, there was this new piece of evidence that offered a real chance to ID the Zodiac. And that kind of brings us to the last clue, if you want to get into that.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah. They were able to get a partial DNA sample from a stamp that the Zodiac attached to his letter back on November 11, 1969. And while Arthur Leigh Allen had died by then, he actually passed away in 1992 from a heart attack. They still had a sample of his DNA on file. The San Francisco Police Department's crime lab tested it, and it came back negative. Negative, negative.

[Kaylin Moore]

So it's been pointed out that the DNA sample wasn't really a complete profile. You know, a bunch of people had touched that letter. Maybe it came from someone else.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

They weren't even 100% sure that it was the Zodiac's DNA. But even with that, Arthur Leigh Allen was ruled out as a suspect. The police never came close to anyone else. Arthur was really the only person ever publicly named as a suspect in the Zodiac killings. Over the years, they looked into 2500 people they were even considering, like, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, the Unabomber, like, they were just trying wild link it to anyone or just see if any of these people could be suspects. There was also a lot of average people they were looking into as well. People who were in the wrong place at the wrong time of other murders. People who bore a resemblance to the description of the Zodiac killer. Again, overweight white guy. Like, there's so many people that just, like, fall into that category, and none of those went anywhere. There was no one that even came close that had any connections to any of these crimes.

[Morgan Abshur]

No, unfortunately, they didn't. And something the subreddit talks about quite a bit is, will this case ever be solved?

[Kaylin Moore]

Well, it really seems like the subreddit is kind of in the boat that I'm in, which is kind of the boat that that guy that runs the Zodiac website that, like, collects all the information. Like, everything is there. Like, he also feels this way too, which is there are, like, there's really no suspects. If you feel like you know who did this, even if you think it's Arthur Leigh Allen, you're probably wrong that it's. He's just not a good of enough suspect.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

And that's what I believe.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

I don't necessarily think it was him.

[Morgan Abshur]

I don't know, and I know you.

[Kaylin Moore]

Disagree with me on that, but I.

[Morgan Abshur]

I think he is one of those people where the shoe is probably the closest fit. I would have been very curious if they ever found boots that were similar in his house. But, you know, we. We only have a few things to go off of if we are trying to solve this today. Clue number one, the appearance, you know, the description from multiple victims and people who saw a suspect in the area on the day during the time, you know, all of that. And then clue number two, those letters and ciphers.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. Unfortunately, it doesn't really look like the Zodiac actually revealed his identity from the ciphers. People have tried to look for hidden messages in them. They haven't really found anything. Like I said, there are two that are unsolved until the Cluminati gets on that. But, like, his name could be in either of those. We just don't know at this point. The letters gave some insight into his personality, but there's not really enough information in them to narrow in on any suspects. And when it came to Arthur Leigh Allen, there also wasn't a match for handwriting. But there is something that I wanted to bring up here because even though I don't think it was Arthur Lee Allen, this is one piece of evidence that I cannot explain away.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, try to try. Try, though, try to explain this.

[Kaylin Moore]

I'm going to try to, but I'm going to fail. So, remember we were talking about that indecipherable gibberish at the end of one of the letters? It was just a Bunch of. A string of. At the end of one of the ciphers, it was a string of letters. That did not make any sense. Well, someone eventually was doing. What's it called when you write out the letters and you try to find different words? Like, you try to make a sentence out of the jumbled letters.

[Morgan Abshur]

Oh, my gosh. They do it on Survivor all the time. I don't know what it's called.

[Kaylin Moore]

What they found was when you rearranged the letters from that indecipherable gibberish, it spelled out Robert Emmett, the hippie. Now, no one named Robert Emmett was ever considered a suspect, but they did find someone named Robert Emmett that Arthur Lee Allen knew, and it was his rival in high school, and he was part of the counterculture movement. He was a hippie. And that is the one piece that I can't explain away. Is that something that he cheekily wrote in to be like, oh, it's my rival? Like, you should look at this guy as a way to plant it or to torment that person.

[Morgan Abshur]

I just don't put it on him.

[Kaylin Moore]

I don't know how that gets written on the cipher.

[Morgan Abshur]

I know. It is very, very interesting, especially because I believe that was from one of the early letters.

[Kaylin Moore]

It was the first one before he.

[Morgan Abshur]

Was ever considered a suspect. So to have that tie to his past, such a deep connection, that is the one that does lead me to believe it could be him. And the fact that after he went to prison, letters stopped. There were no other killings tied to the Zodiac. So it's just an interesting connection. We do have another piece of evidence that could be used. You know, there's the prints that were found on Paul Stine's cabin. For me, it's hard to think it belonged to anyone but the Zodiac Killer. Granted, you know, Paul was a cab driver. A lot of people getting in and out. It seems like the Bloody Prince would obviously belong to whoever did this.

[Kaylin Moore]

Yeah. Didn't someone also say, like, maybe a paramedic, like, touched it when he leaned over to get into the cab? There's maybe other people that could have touched that day, but I know that they were fingerprinting when the letters would come in, they would fingerprint all of the detectives and all the journalists to make sure that they were ruled out?

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

So maybe they also did that with the paramedics. I'm not sure.

[Morgan Abshur]

You never know. And, I mean, we have a few botched tallies that could be another one if that's the case. We just. We don't know with that yeah.

[Kaylin Moore]

And then there's clue number four, which is the DNA sample, which is really the thing that would get him. If we are able to. Like, this is the one that would really prove it.

[Morgan Abshur]

Yeah, I mean, it got Golden State somewhat recently.

[Kaylin Moore]

Absolutely.

[Morgan Abshur]

I. I hope they are able to get a good enough sample and maybe get a genealogy hit eventually.

[Kaylin Moore]

I know it was a partial sample, one that rules out Arthur Lee Allen, but I don't know, there's just so much that goes into the sample. Was it really the Zodiacs? Can they do enough with it? If it was a partial sample from 50 years ago, but maybe it's going to be like the. The Golden State Killer, where it's just someone that uploads their DNA and they're able to build that family tree and figure it out.

[Morgan Abshur]

As we know, though, the laws are changing. So, yes, we will see.

[Kaylin Moore]

Although the investigation isn't active currently, the Zodiac Killer case is still open in several jurisdictions across the Bay Area. And as we've mentioned, there are a ton of online communities that are still diving into this evidence. So while there isn't an official Zodiac Killer tip line, if you do have information, if you feel like someone in your family was up to no good.

[Morgan Abshur]

A deathbed confession.

[Kaylin Moore]

A deathbed confession. If you overhear something, if you're a nurse and someone says something weird on their deathbed, you can actually call the Vallejo Police Department's anonymous tip line at 800-488-9383 and you can submit information. There's countless message boards that also are taking information.

[Morgan Abshur]

But that is all we have for you guys today. It is time to wrap up this case file. To this day, the Zodiac remains one of the most chilling unsolved crimes. From the seemingly random attacks, the taunting letters, the mysterious ciphers, two of which we're waiting on you guys to help solve, there is still so, so much we don't know. How many victims did he really have? What did he do? Who was he? Sadly, these are questions that may never get answered, leaving the Zodiac Killer's identity shrouded in darkness forever.

[Kaylin Moore]

Throughout the years, the Zodiac is often referred to as a super genius. I just don't think that's the case. Was he a chess master who created a brilliant cipher that took 51 years to solve? Or did he make the cipher wrong and spell a bunch of basic words incorrectly? Was he always one step ahead of the police? Or did he benefit from the fact that police were making a bunch of rookie mistakes like our botched board says, and also didn't have access to modern technology like DNA. Sure, he outsmarted the cops, but the bar was pretty low back then. The Zodiac Killer did all of this for attention and fame. He did this so that we would remember him on podcasts years later as being the scariest serial killer of all time. And I have no interest in perpetuating that version of him. Now, I would argue that the Zodiac Killer was not an apex predator, but instead a cowardly narcissist. And had cops and reporters not allowed him to turn the investigation into a theater performance, he would probably have been remembered, like Paul Avery said, for being a clumsy criminal and a liar.

[Morgan Abshur]

Do I need to get not Kaylin Moore buttons made?

[Kaylin Moore]

And if you have any questions, I'm not Kaylen Moore. And that's it for this episode of Clues. We hope you enjoyed unraveling this case with us. And as always, we want to hear from you. Once you crack that cipher, please message us on Instagram. Your thoughts, your theories, your feedback, all of that is what makes this community so special again.

[Morgan Abshur]

At Crime House, we really value your support, so share those thoughts on social media. We want to see you guys in the comments and we want to see your reviews. Remember to rate us and follow Clues to help others discover our show. And if you're hungry for even more content, we've got you covered. For more exclusive content, monthly bonus episodes, early access, and ad free listening, join our Crime House plus community on Apple Podcasts.

[Kaylin Moore]

We'll be back next week with another case to unravel. Until then, I'm not Paul Avery. She's not Paul Avery. Stay curious, keep searching, and we will see you next time on Clues.

[Morgan Abshur]

Bye.

[Kaylin Moore]

Bye.