Susan Powell: The Letter She Left Behind

Summary

Podcast Summary: Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaelyn Moore

Episode: "Susan Powell: The Letter She Left Behind"

Hosts: Morgan Absher & Kaelyn Moore
Date: March 4, 2026
Podcast: Clues (Crime House Original)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the harrowing and infamous missing persons case of Susan Powell, dissecting the timeline, highlighting key evidence, and contextualizing the case with Susan’s chilling secret letter. Morgan and Kaelyn walk listeners through the deeply troubling events leading up to Susan’s disappearance, the investigation that followed, and the tragic aftermath, with a particular focus on clues overlooked, the failures of authorities, and the evidence Susan herself left behind.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Disappearance & Immediate Aftermath (04:05–15:00)

• Timeline: On December 7, 2009, Susan Powell and her two sons fail to show up at daycare, immediately raising alarm bells with their childcare provider, Deborah Caldwell.
• Early Concern: Neighbors and family grow anxious; the house is undisturbed in the snowy Utah winter—no tire tracks or footprints indicate anyone left recently.
• Welfare Check: Family calls the police at 9:53am; police enter the house at 10:02am and discover the Powell family is missing, except for Josh’s blue minivan which is also gone.
• Missing Persons Investigation: Launched at 1:30pm after no one can account for their absence and carbon monoxide poisoning is ruled out.

2. The Powells’ Background (07:25–11:58)

• Courtship and Marriage: Susan and Josh Powell grew up LDS and met in a church singles group. Their relationship was odd from the start, with Josh previously stalking Susan’s sister.
  • "Showing up uninvited to someone else's prom and then following them home... in hindsight, that's terrifying." – Kaelyn Moore (08:42)
• Early Warning Signs: Friends and family notice concerning behaviors; Josh denies Susan a ride to the hospital while in labor, is extremely frugal to the point of financial abuse, and files for bankruptcy.
  • "She was always seen knitting and crocheting not just for fun, but because Josh wouldn't allow her to buy anything." – Morgan Absher (11:09)

3. The Investigation Intensifies (11:58–16:42)

• First Search: Police find the home in disarray, with box fans and cleaned carpets; Susan’s purse and essentials are left, but cell phones are missing.
• Major Clues:
  • Josh’s last cell phone activity was the day before.
  • Susan called her friend Giovanna around 2:30pm Sunday.
• Josh Found: Eventually, Josh returns home with his sons late in the evening, exhibiting strange behavior (unaccounted for whereabouts, implausible alibi).

4. Josh’s Alibi Falls Apart (18:13–25:47)

• Inconsistent Statements: Josh provides implausible and changing stories: claiming to have taken the boys camping at 1:30am in winter after Susan "allowed" a spontaneous trip.
  • "The dead of night. I mean, it was between 1:30 and 2:00am that he carried both of his sleeping sons to the minivan to go..." – Morgan Absher (21:57)
• Evidence in the Van: Police find camping equipment, tarps, saws, gloves, and Susan’s phone (SIM card missing) in Josh’s vehicle.
  • "There’s also like... one tool that was missing. And it’s like this impact driver..." – Morgan Absher (24:31)

5. Clues from the Children & Forensic Evidence (29:53–38:34)

• Charlie's Interview: Four-year-old Charlie tells authorities his mom camped with them but "stayed where the crystals are"—possibly referencing a desert/mine location.
  • "My mom stayed where the crystals are... going to sleep where the flowers and the crystals grow." – Charlie, via interview (31:15–31:35)
• Forensic Finds: Tiny blood stains found on floor and couch; DNA matches Susan. Josh’s van contains evidence of attempted item destruction.

6. Unraveling Josh’s Actions (36:14–39:27)

• Suspicious Rental Car: Josh rents a car, drives 807 miles in two days after Susan's disappearance; authorities fail to search it before it's cleaned and re-rented—a major investigative lapse.

7. The Secret Will & Financial Motive (43:57–54:08)

• Susan’s Letter: In her secret safe deposit box, Susan leaves a letter dated June 28, 2008, detailing her fear of Josh, listing names for police, and warning, "If I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like one. Take care of my boys."
  • "It is an open fact that we have life insurance policies of over a million if we die in the next four years..." – Susan Powell, from her letter (44:39)
• Financial Abuse: Josh had drained Susan’s retirement account and tried (unsuccessfully) to claim extensive life insurance policies.

8. Family Dysfunction and Steven Powell’s Dark Secrets (55:20–65:08)

• The Powell Family: Josh's sister Jennifer aids police in a wiretapped confrontation. Josh and his father Steven act suspicious; Steven especially is protective of Josh.
  • "He denied knowing where Susan was or having done anything to hurt her... ‘My attorney said not to talk about it.’" (50:41)
• Steven’s Obsession: Police find Steven kept thousands of voyeuristic photos, videos, and written accounts, documenting an intense sexual obsession with Susan and other crimes.
  • "He would spy on Susan... slip a mirror under the bathroom door... steal her used hygiene products and panties." – Morgan Absher (59:01)
  • Audio clip: Steven describing his obsession and crossing boundaries (61:19)

9. The Tragic End – The Murder-Suicide (69:22–74:35)

• Custody Battle: After evidence of child abuse and inappropriate material in the household, Susan’s parents win temporary custody of the children; Josh maintains supervised visits.
• Explosion and Murders: On Feb 5, 2012, during a visitation, Josh kills Charlie and Braden with an axe before blowing up the house, killing himself as well.
  • "She says ‘this could be life-threatening’... and minutes later, there's an explosion, smoke, and by the time all that clears, three people are dead inside the house." – Kaelyn Moore (74:35)
  • Memorable moment: The chilling 911 call where the social worker tries fruitlessly to get help (71:51–73:02).

10. The Aftermath and Ongoing Mystery (74:40–82:22)

• No Justice, No Closure: Susan remains missing; both Josh and his brother Michael (who later dies by suicide under police scrutiny) are gone. Steven Powell dies in 2018, never confessing or providing information.
• Family Lawsuit: Susan’s parents sue for failure to protect the children; ultimately winning nearly $100 million in damages in 2023, hoping to change child protection policies.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "If I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like one. Take care of my boys."
  — Susan Powell, secret letter (44:39)

• "You're gonna stand there and tell a cop this story? That's crazy to me."
  — Kaelyn Moore (22:15)

• "Josh drained Susan's retirement account just ten days after she disappeared. You don't think that person is coming back if you drain their retirement account."
  — Morgan Absher (53:40)

• "He would spy on Susan... it's all in these videos, it's absolutely disgusting..."
  — Morgan Absher (59:01)

• 911 Call:
  Social Worker: "This could be life-threatening..." (71:51–73:02)

  • Listener warning: The call audio and the subsequent events are among the episode's most harrowing moments.

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Critical Reflections & Analysis

• Missed Opportunities:
  • The hosts repeatedly critique lack of police surveillance/oversight as a key failing: Josh’s access to the boys, the cleaning and loss of evidence, and the re-renting of the rental car without forensic examination.
• Victim Advocacy:
  • A poignant section gestures toward LDS policies and the importance of external domestic violence resources (80:05–82:22).

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Resource Highlights & Activism (80:05–82:22)

• The Refuge Utah: Offers emergency/transitional housing and 24-hour hotline for DV survivors (801-377-5500).
• Abuse.LDS.org: LDS Church’s (post-2018) resource page for abuse survivors.
• Susan Cox Powell Foundation: Founded by Susan’s parents to advocate for DV survivors and keep attention on Susan’s case.

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Memorable Segment Timestamps

• Susan’s Secret Will: 43:57–47:37
• Charlie’s Statement: 29:53–34:01
• The 911 Call: 71:51–73:02
• Steven Powell’s Journals & Obsession: 58:42–65:08
• Josh’s Murder-Suicide: 69:22–74:35
• Host Reflections & Call to Action: 80:05–82:22

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Language and Tone

While handling extremely sensitive material, Morgan and Kaelyn maintain a balance of empathy, outrage, and respectful detail, frequently expressing horror at behavior and system breakdowns but always centering the victims, especially Susan and her sons.

"Absolutely horrific. Just. Absolutely horrific." – Morgan Absher (74:40)

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Conclusion

This episode of Clues is an in-depth, emotionally resonant exploration of the Susan Powell case, focusing on the clues she left behind, the investigation's twists and failures, and a family destroyed by abuse, obsession, and violence. While resolution has proven elusive, Susan’s story is kept alive in hopes that future leads will emerge, and listeners are provided resources should they or someone they love need help.

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For more detail, listen to:

• Susan’s letter and secret will
• Charlie’s interview
• 911 call from social worker

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If you or someone you know needs help, call the Refuge Utah DV hotline: [phone]
Visit the Susan Cox Powell Foundation for updates and advocacy resources.

Transcript

[A]

When someone goes missing, the headlines focus on what happened. But the truth often lives in the smallest details. I'm Sarah Turney. After my sister disappeared, I learned how those final hours, the last conversations, the last decisions can haunt families forever.

[B]

And I'm Courtney Nicole. After seeing crime impact my own family, I've learned how overlooked moments, missed red flag flags, and unanswered questions can change everything.

[A]

Together, we're bringing those lived experiences into the work. This is the Final Hours A Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. A podcast that puts the moments before a disappearance under a microscope.

[B]

Listen to and follow the Final Hours wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday.

[C]

This is Crime House.

[D]

A mother of two disappears. Her husband has no idea where she could be. Her son says she went camping with them but stayed behind.

[C]

When detectives open her secret safe deposit box, they realize she knew she was going to die, but it was too late to save herself. Today we are getting to the case of Susan Powell. Hi guys. Welcome back to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.

[D]

Once again, I'm Kaylin Moore. I'm going to be the one digging deeper into the timelines, the backstories and the court files released on these cases.

[C]

And I'm your Internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I'm diving into everything I can find on Reddit and all across the Internet to see those lesser known details and pull out the threads that just don't add up.

[D]

Don't forget to share your thoughts on social want ad free listening and early access. You can subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. Let's get into this case and the clues that defined it.

[E]

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[D]

Experian

[C]

this case came upon our radar when a listener actually put it in the comments. Yeah, they wanted us to highlight it as the missing person case of the week and we started digging a little deeper into it and we were blown away.

[D]

Yeah, it's a case that I had heard about for a long time. I mean it was like all over the news when it was happening. But the more you dive into it, there's so many threads and rabbit holes you can go down. It just keeps getting weirder and weirder and more upsetting. So we're going to lead you through the whole thing today.

[C]

Yeah, I literally just got the chills as you said that. I'm like, my legs. I'm like, I might as well not shave my legs yesterday cuz I just got goosebumps. It is a really bizarre and gripping case and it's just, it is a bit tragic as well.

[D]

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

[C]

Here we go.

[D]

As a reminder, if you're watching on YouTube, you're going to see some images that'll help you put pieces of the case together. And if you're listening, you can follow us on our social media, which everyone should just do anyways. That's at Clues podcast on Instagram.

[C]

Definitely going to want to check out socials and everything for this one. There's a lot of interview clips and things we're going to be posting, so you don't want to miss those. And just a warning before we begin, this episode does contain some graphic descriptions of murder, stalking, domestic violence, child abuse, child death. There are also some brief non graphic mentions of child sexual abuse material. So again, this is a bit of a heavy one. Please listen with care.

[D]

Listen with care guys. Okay? This case begins on Monday, December 7, 2009. A child care provider named Deborah Caldwell is starting to grow increasingly concerned. And that's because four year old Charlie Powell and his two year old brother Braden didn't show up for daycare at 6am like they normally do. Deborah tries calling both of their parents, 33 year old Josh and 28 year old Susan Powell. But neither of them answer their cell phone or their landline. And not only that, but their cell phones are going straight to voicemail. So by 9am, Debra's pretty worried at this point and she thinks, I'll just go check in on this family. Now the Powells only lived a half mile away, but it's really snowy and it's icy in West Valley, Utah this time of year. So she puts all the other daycare kids in her van and she drives them all over to the Powells together. Now the Powells at the time owned a cute little suburban house at the end of a cul de sac. It had five bedrooms, two bathrooms, a two car garage and a big grassy yard. And when she gets there, she sees that the long driveway and the concrete steps leading up to the front door are covered with a thick layer of snow. Now, Josh usually would leave for his computer programmer job at a trucking and warehouse company and Susan would leave the house a little bit later for her job at Wells Fargo Investments. But the snow out front of the house is completely undisturbed. There's no tire tracks, there's no footprints. And after 9am on a Monday morning, that just feels wrong. So Debra tries calling their work numbers next. Nobody answers at Susan's office, but someone at Josh's company picks up. And they're also wondering where Josh is this morning. So next Deborah calls the family's emergency contacts. That's Josh's mom, Teresa Powell, and his 35 year old sister, Jennifer Graves. At this point, everyone is actually kind of having the same scary thought because no one knows where Josh is and they haven't heard from him that morning. And that's that everyone in town has been talking about this carbon monoxide poisoning case that happened. There's been a couple actually recent tragedies in the area of people dying from carbon monoxide poisoning in their homes. So everyone starts imagining that that could be what was going on this time of year. The house would have been sealed up tight, furnaces would have been running all day long. Even really small gas leaks could be life threatening. I mean, it's something I worry about all the time as an anxious person. Not everyone in the area has carbon monoxide detectors either. So Teresa, Jennifer and then Jennifer's kids race over to Josh and Susan's house just a few minutes away. And Jennifer's kids climb the fence and check the doors behind the house to see if they can get inside. But all of the doors are locked. So at 9.53am, Teresa and Jennifer call the West Valley City Police for a welfare check. The first officer arrives at 10:02am followed by a backup unit. And after trying a bunch of different ways to get in, the police officers break a window with Teresa's permission. And once they get inside, they realize there's not necessarily any trace of a carbon monoxide leak. In fact, no one is home. There's not a single person in the house. They notice that Josh's blue minivan is gone as well. And since there's no tire tracks in the driveway and snow fell overnight, they assume that the family's been gone since at least the night before. So it's really weird that no one else in their life knew that they were going to be gone. And that's why at 1:30pm the police decide that they're going to open a missing persons investigation. But let's rewind a little bit and meet the Powells before that snowy December day. So the mom of the family, Susan Powell, was born Susan Marie Cox in New Mexico. Later, her family moved to Puyallup, Washington, near Tacoma. She planned to go to cosmetology school and work in a salon. She wanted to make women feel beautiful for a living. As for Josh, he also grew up in Puyallup. And then at 16, his parents got divorced. His father moved to Spokane, Washington, and his mother moved to Utah. By 2000, Josh was studying at the University of Washington, Tacoma's business school, and that's where he met Susan. Josh and Susan were both raised within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and they met at a singles event through their church. Josh was five years older, but he was interested in Susan right away, but she was not as interested as he was. Plus, there was actually some history between Josh and Susan's family. So a few years back, Josh actually tried dating her older sister, Mary, who definitely was not into Josh. But Josh could not take a hint. He showed up uninvited to Mary's senior prom and then proceeded to follow her home. Like, at the time, maybe seemed like it was like a cute, teenagery thing to do, but in hindsight, that's terrifying.

[C]

Yeah, no, I wish I had one of my red flags from two hot takes over here. I'm like, no, you're. You're a stalker.

[D]

Showing up uninvited to someone else's prom and then following them home. And then when he gets back to their house, her dad has to basically kick him out because he won't leave. Mary told Susan about all of this. She was pretty concerned that Josh was interested in her younger sister now.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But over time, it seems like Josh just grew on Susan. She liked his ability to be himself. She liked that he definitely didn't care what others thought. And that was apparent because of his behavior. By the end of 2000, the couple was engaged, and they married in April of 2001 at a temple in Portland, Oregon. After that, Josh finished business school and Susan went on to beauty school like she wanted to do. Then Josh and Susan moved in with his father for a while, but they ended up moving out because things got a bit strained. And at the time, they weren't really telling people what happened. It just seemed like a little odd, intense in the house when they were living there with Josh's dad. They ended up moving to Utah in early 2004. And at this point, they felt ready to start a family. And it was helpful because Josh's sister and mom were pretty close by to help out. Within a few months, Susan was pregnant, and their first son, Charlie, arrived in 2005. And then Brayden was born in 2007. By 2009, they had the American dream, by all intents and purposes, the house, the kids, the minivan. They were also always out camping around Utah and Washington. And according to those around them, they had what appeared to be a perfect marriage. But for the people who knew them really closely, it did seem like there were a few cracks in the foundation. So friends and family knew that there were rough patches in this marriage. Like, for instance, Susan had confessed to some of her friends that when she went into labor with Charlie, their firstborn, Josh declined to drive her to the hospital because he wanted to back up his computer's hard drive before he left the house. And when I read that sentence, I hunted down Matt and yelled at him about it.

[C]

That's how mad I was.

[D]

Oh, my God. I was like, why would someone do this? He's like, what are you mad at me for?

[C]

As someone that's like eight and a half months pregnant right now, you're like, you just can't even fathom.

[D]

I cannot fathom a situation where, where I'm in pain. I go to Matt and he's like, one second, I have to back up the hard drive.

[C]

What is so important that you're backing up your hard drives?

[D]

That's exactly what I was thinking. But also, this is like 2005, 2007, there's not Uber Lyft. Like you have to call a taxi, you have to pay. It's just a nightmare. Susan also was always seen knitting and crocheting, which is like a normal, very cute hobby to have. But it was actually because Josh wouldn't allow her to buy anything. So she had to make all of the kids, clothing, their socks, their hats, all, everything because she needed to save money. And part of the reason why she had to save so much money is because in 2007, Josh filed for bankruptcy and he declared over $200,000 in debts. The couple, it seems like they were in marriage counseling trying to work through these problems. They seem like very big problems to have, but they were trying to work through it. But then came the morning of December 7, 2009, when the Powell's disappeared.

[C]

So back on December 7, it's about 2:30pm, seven and a half hours after the Kids missed their drop off time at daycare. Detective Ellis Maxwell arrived at the Powell's house. He noticed there was no sign of forced entry, no signs that the house had been ransacked or anything had been taken. But it did seem that the family had left in a rush, leading us to our first clue, which is kind of like the state of their home. The radio was still on. The kids toys were scattered about the living room, and Susan's purse was still there with her keys, credit cards, cash, cameras still inside. But the detective did notice that her cell phone and driver's license were missing. There were also two large box fans on and they were blowing from different directions towards a recently cleaned patch of the living room carpet as well as the couch. The detective even found a carpet cleaning machine nearby in the primary bedroom. Now, alarm bells are clearly ringing. All of you listening, you're like, oh my God. Yeah, something happened here. And so when detectives look further and notice that Josh's cell phone is also missing from the house, they know something is up. So Detective Maxwell subpoenaed for both Josh and Susan's records, bringing us to our second clue. Josh's phone was Last active at 12:14pm on Sunday, December 6, the afternoon before the disappearance. And that's when Josh had made a phone call to his father, Steven. Susan's phone was Last active at 2.29pm on Sunday when she called a friend of hers, Jovana. At this time, you could only really get a location of a cell phone based on cslrs, which is cell site location records, which only updated when the phone sent or received a call or text. So it wasn't like all of the data we have today where like Google is literally tracking our every footprint. Like all of these apps have location data. Little different back then. And because of the fact that there was no activity on either cell after they left the house, they had no idea where they were. They didn't know whether their phones were off or they just didn't make or receive any calls at that time. The cell records couldn't and didn't say. But both cell phones were definitely turned off by the following morning when Debra had called from daycare. By that point, Detective Maxwell was getting a very, very bad feeling about this case. And things were about to get a lot more complicated. One of this week's partners is HelloFresh. Nothing hits like home cooking and HelloFresh makes it easy to do more of it this year with recipes that feel good and taste delicious night after night. As someone who has a hard time cooking. I love getting HelloFresh. It makes cooking actually feel doable for me and every recipe I've ever tried has tasted amazing and I can skip multiple trips to the grocery store and meal planning. It is such a win. I also love the fact that you can choose from more than a hundred recipes every week, including cuisines from around the world. You're gonna find something for even your pickiest of eaters and portions are bigger and they're gonna satisfy everyone. You're going to feel great with the wholesome ingredients like sustainably sourced seafood and 100% antibiotic and hormone free chicken. So whether you want to impress guests or just treat yourself to good meals, give HelloFresh a try. Go to HelloFresh.comClues10FM to get 10 free meals and a free Zwilling knife. A $144.99 value on your third box offer valid while supplies last free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. Today's episode is brought to you by alma. It can be challenging to find the right therapist. Someone that gets you, teaches you strategies that are actually going to work for you and your needs. And it can sometimes be costly. Well, ALMA is on a mission to change all that. They want to simplify access to high quality, affordable mental health care and they have over 20,000 diverse therapists and an easy to use platform. One thing I love about ALMA is that you can do consultations with a therapist. It's almost like an interview and you can make sure you guys match each other's vibes before you really jump in and get started. Their directory helps you find a therapist that takes your insurance and meets your specific needs with filters like gender, race, therapeutic approach and more. And you're going to know exactly how much you're paying up front with their free insurance, cost, estimator, calculator. We're entering a new year, so now is the perfect time to start addressing things you might want to work on. A year from today isn't that far away. Get started now@hello alma.com clues. That's hello a l m a.com clues. Yeah.

[D]

So detective Maxwell and his team spent the most of that first day interviewing the Powell's friends and family, just trying to get any more information he could. He also uploaded their profiles to a national missing persons database and called local hospitals to look at just for any unidentified patients that matched the Powell's descriptions. He got nothing. Throughout the day, Josh's family kept trying his cell phone to see if he would turn it Back on. And finally, at 5:27pm, he answers. And that's because his sister Jennifer called. When Jennifer asked what was going on and why he hadn't gone to work, Josh told her that he did. Obviously that's a lie. We know that that's a lie. His work was just as confused as everyone else in his life. But Josh picks up the phone. He's like, what do you mean, I was at work? So she ends up telling him that she talked to his boss. She knows he wasn't at his job that day. And that's when he tells her a new story. He says, oh, actually I took the boys camping, but I got caught off guard by the snowstorm and we didn't make it back home in time. And then Jennifer asks about Susan because she's also missing as well. And he gets even cagier. First he said that Susan was at work, and then, of course, that's another lie. So Jennifer calls him out on it. She's like, we know that Susan's not at work either. Like, her job hasn't heard from her either today. And Josh then takes that story back as well and goes, oh, well, then I don't actually don't know where she might be. Then he asked Jennifer, quote, what else do you know before he says that he was close to home and he was going to meet her there soon.

[C]

Like, let me try to get my story straight before you catch me in any more lies.

[D]

Literally, that's exactly what I was saying. Come on. Exactly. So right away, Jennifer goes to Detective Maxwell and she tells him how weird Josh is being on the phone. And then 20 minutes later, Josh still doesn't make it back. So Detective Maxwell uses Jennifer's phone to call Josh again, because now they know that he'll at least pick up for Jennifer.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

When he answers, Detective Maxwell introduces himself and he asks why he wasn't back home yet. And that's when Josh said that he needed to feed his kids first. And then he started just ignoring and deflecting all of the questions that were aimed at him. He talks to his kids in the backseat about what they wanted to eat. He's just trying to bring up anything he can, essentially. Even though they're also telling him that his wife is missing. Like they're also looking for his wife.

[C]

Yeah, like your wife is missing.

[D]

Yes. Okay. And he will not answer any questions about it. But eventually he agrees that he's going to head home. It still takes him over an hour to get back. So finally, at 6:40pm, Josh's van pulls into the driveway. Charlie and Braden are safe in the backseat. They're eating pizza. But Josh goes ahead and he still says a few strange things to Maxwell that he notes when he asks why Josh's phone was off for so long. Josh says that the battery was dead, even though when they go look inside the van, there's a charger sitting literally next to him in the front. The biggest red flag though in all of this is that there is no sign of Susan anywhere. By this point, Maxwell starts getting really worried about her safety, but he doesn't have really any anything that he can go off of to make any sort of arrest.

[C]

No. So all Detective Maxwell can do is kind of ask Josh to come to the station voluntarily and give an interview. And he does agree, which is where we get our third clue in this Josh's Alibi here's what Josh said happened starting from Sunday morning, December 6th. That day started with Susan and the boys going to church while Josh stayed behind and went grocery shopping. When Susan got home that afternoon, she called her friend Giovanna to come and help her with a crochet project. Josh said Susan took a nap around 4pm and her friend left shortly after. At about 6:30pm Susan woke up and the family had hot dogs for dinner. Brayden fell asleep around 7pm so Josh took Charlie sledding at a Nearby Elementary School.

[D]

7:00pm Also mind you, would be I imagine Utah in the winter. Pitch black.

[C]

Yeah. And cold. And this is a little kid.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Like come on. Police actually end up questioning Susan's friend Jovana the next day and they did get her side of the story and her account mostly matched what Josh was saying, except she thought that Josh had actually taken both boys sledding and she saw him leave around 5pm with the boys all bundled up. Not 7pm which that's a huge difference, especially for like two little kids who their bedtime could literally be seven. Giovanna did confirm that Susan was asleep in bed at the time, but Josh said that he got home from sledding around 8pm and found Susan awake. Josh then put Charlie to bed around 8:30pm and Susan asked him to clean the couch with the rug doctor machine, so he did. Then he set up the box fans to dry the couch so it wouldn't get any mildew on it. After Josh said he and Susan watched a movie, at which point he asked if he could take the boys out camping by himself. He wanted to test a new generator that he had just bought. According to him, Susan went to bed at around 12:30am on Monday, December 7th.

[D]

I'm sorry. It's a. Like they have daycare the next morning. What mom Is allowing their kids to go on a camping trip in, like, basically the dead of night.

[C]

The dead of night. I mean, it was between 1:30 and 2:00am that he carried both of his sleeping sons to the minivan to go

[D]

on a camping trip to test a generator.

[C]

It's freezing outside in the middle of winter.

[D]

In the middle of winter, you're gonna

[C]

go in a tent in the middle of Utah with two. They're like babies in my head, they're so little.

[D]

You're gonna stand there and tell a cop this story? That's crazy to me.

[C]

Yeah, well, he does. He says, you know, he loaded up his minivan with clothing, his generator heaters, and he set off for the pony express trail 20 miles away from their home. They slept in the van and woke up with the sunrise in the morning, which also. You're testing this new generator, but you're sleeping in your van. Sure. In the morning, Josh made a fire so the boys could have some s' mores and drove them around the area looking at the scenery. Josh claimed he didn't call into work that morning because he actually thought he. It was Sunday, but your wife went to church. Okay.

[D]

And it was Monday. The day before you had work. Like, why did you think it was Sunday? Yeah, whatever.

[C]

You had work the next day. Come on. He said by the time he remembered that it was Monday, it was already snowing and he wasn't able to get to work on time. So around 2pm is when Josh said he left the Pony Express trail with the boys and he stopped to go through a car wash on the way home. He said that he tried to call Susan once he got reception, but she didn't answer. And then between 5 and 5:30, Josh said he went to Susan's work to pick her up like he usually did on weekdays. And at that point, Josh said his mom Teresa had called and said that Susan hadn't shown up to work that day. That's when Josh heard from his sister Jennifer and Detective Maxwell for the first time. And Josh insisted that throughout this whole time, like, I have no idea where Susan is, just kept insisting he couldn't remember what Susan was wearing when he left the house. He couldn't explain why she would leave in 20 degree weather without her purse, and he couldn't say where her cell phone might be. Josh really didn't know anything.

[D]

Anything?

[C]

Nothing. After getting Josh's alibi Detective Maxwell got Josh's permission to search his vehicle. And that's our fourth clue. The van. Josh signed a consent form for the search, so they didn't need a warrant or anything like that. And so at 8:20 that night, Detective Maxwell finds a few suspicious items in the van. There's a tarp, a shovel, a circular saw, a hacksaw, a box of green latex gloves, a razor knife, a bunch of power tools.

[D]

All the things you bring on a super normal camping trip that you took in the dead of night.

[C]

There's also like one tool that was missing and it's like this impact driver. It's typically used to drive large screws into hard materials. It actually like hammers in the screw as it drills. And there also was something in this van. Susan's cell phone, the one that Josh said he was trying to call. On his way back from camping, Maxwell discovered that the cell phone had been turned off and the SIM card was missing, just gone. Josh had no, no plausible explanation why Susan's phone was in the car, why the SIM card was missing. And as they were talking, Detective Maxwell saw something he hadn't noticed before. There were little cuts all over Josh's hands. He claimed they were just from dry skin, but he seemed upset that Maxwell kept asking about it. Kept like going back to the cuts on his hands. Maxwell at this point knows that he needs to keep questioning Josh, but he still like doesn't have enough to make an actual arrest yet. So he lets Josh go and plans to meet at the police station at 9am the next morning for another interview.

[D]

And then of course Josh was more than three hours late for this follow up interview.

[C]

Which, can I just say, like, why did they not assign like a detail to him at this point? I know we do cover a lot

[D]

of cases where they start surveilling someone for like 24 7. Yeah. If they can't make an arrest, I know it.

[C]

That to me is a little shocking. I'm like, I don't know if legally this is running my phone, a lawyer button. Like legally could they have done that at this point? Like, he seems reasonably suspicious.

[D]

It does feel weird for, okay, I have this guy in front of me, his wife is missing, his car is full of hacksaws, and I'm just.

[C]

His story's horrendous.

[D]

The story's horrendous. I'm just gonna let him take his two young sons back to his house. Yeah, that feels bad.

[C]

I'm gonna give it one legally. I need people to chime in But I'm gonna give it one for now. And if we get to the end and you in the comments tell me I need to erase one, then. Then that's what we do. But.

[D]

So Josh is super late for this interview. And when they ask why he's so late, he says that he was having trouble finding childcare. Also doesn't add up because he has a date. Deborah at daycare is someone he sends his kids to every day. But actually, during this time, we know that he was cleaning his van, and at some point in between the day before and the following day, he had pulled them out of daycare with Deborah. So take that for what you will,

[C]

which makes no sense. This woman packed up all the other daycare kids in her car and drove

[D]

over to your house to make sure you were okay.

[C]

Clearly a good daycare person.

[D]

So in the meantime, Maxwell decides he's still gonna do some, like, on the ground detective work. And he starts calling around to local women's shelters because he thinks there is something so wrong with Josh that maybe Susan tried to flee in the middle of the night and ended up at a women's shelter to protect herself from him. But none of the women's shelters have seen her or have heard from her. Neither had her friends or family. Finally, Josh gets to the police precinct at 12:40pm and during this second interview, Josh immediately starts talking about getting a lawyer. But remember, he's there voluntarily. He was allowed to leave at any time. He was not under arrest, so he could have demanded a lawyer and stopped talking, but he chose not to, which allowed Maxwell to keep asking him questions, basically until he decided to leave. Maxwell's able to still talk to Josh and get more information out of him, even though he's saying he wants a lawyer. Josh goes on to accuse Maxwell of, quote, trying to trap me on little things like the cuts on my hands, which is ridiculous because of your wife is missing and your hands are covered in cuts. Like, of course the detective is going to focus on that, but Josh thinks that's just, like, a little thing that they won't let go. Eventually, Maxwell gets him talking about Sunday night again, and his alibi does mostly stay the same, except for one detail. In his first interview, he said that the family ate hot dogs for dinner, but now he said that they made pancakes and omelettes. Sounds like a little detail, but it immediately sets something on Maxwell's brain.

[C]

Big difference.

[D]

That's when Maxwell decides he's going to change the topic to the Powell's marriage. He wants to ask how the marriage was going. Essentially, Josh did admit that they were in counseling, but he said it was Susan's fault that they were in counseling. He said she was crazy like her mother and a therapist needed to, quote, pound her mother out of her. At this point, Maxwell decides he's going to take a pretty big risk. Instead of just interviewing Josh, he's going to detain him so that he can actually interrogate him. Being detained, different from being arrested, It's a temporary hold just to investigate suspicion. And at this point, obviously, Maxwell has a lot of suspicion against Josh. He wanted to get more aggressive in his questioning, and detaining Josh would allow him to do so. But the plan ends up backfiring because Josh freaked out and asked for a lawyer and then refused to say anything else beyond that. The interrogation phase was over, essentially before it had began. And Josh was now free to just go. But in a different room, in the same police precinct, there was another interview happening, one that would be a lot more helpful.

[C]

Yeah. The police figured that Josh wasn't the only witness in Susan's case. Their son Charlie was just old enough to kind of be interviewed, you know, at 4. They thought he would be able to share what he saw. Which gives us our fifth clue. Charlie's statement. That same day, December 8th, a specially trained interviewer asked Charlie some delicate questions. And Charlie confirmed that he went camping with his family two nights ago in a place called Dinosaur National Park. Dinosaur national monument is about 200 miles from west Valley City. The family had gone camping there in August, four months earlier. And Charlie says that his mom came with them this time, too. Charlie says on this trip that they ate s' mores and saw some flowers. And at first, Charlie says his mom came home with them after camping. But after taking a break, he ends up changing his story. This time. He said, quote, my mom stayed where the crystals are. Charlie explained that the crystals grew inside of the rocks in Dinosaur National Park. He then repeated, quote, my mom was going to sleep where the flowers and the crystals grow. The interviewer told Maxwell about this immediately. And when Josh was questioned on what his kids said, he. He immediately goes like, they're lying. Like they're. They're lying. If they said that, they're lying. And we're gonna put a clip in for you guys so you can see this part. But Maxwell kind of says, like, so your kids lie. And Josh is like, sometimes they do. And Josh ends up, like, in this very drawn out way, says, if they said that she was with us, then I guess that would Put her out at pony express. And again, watch this clip, you guys. Like, this is very, very strange.

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

And that she didn't come back. She did not go with us. Okay, well, with that just getting that

[D]

information,

[F]

you're not gonna go anywhere. I'm not gonna let you leave. I'm gonna detain you. You sit right here. If you want a lawyer and you want to talk or you want to change your mind. Do your kids lie? Sometimes they do. I mean, if they said that she was with us, they know that's not true. So if they said. And if they said that she was with us, then. That would put her out in the. Out the pony express. Okay. And that's my concern as our concern. It is cold outside, and if there's any way we can help her, we can help her right now if you help us out. No, she's. She was not with us. I didn't leave her at the pony express.

[C]

Very cold, very detached, very calm. Like for me watching this clip, it was eerie.

[D]

Like he's almost planning what to say next.

[C]

It's just like so off and it's so slow and calculated. Like you can tell he's being careful with his words. And once he heard about Charlie's statement, Maxwell knew at this point, like, I've got to apply the pressure here. And I will say, like, there's a lot out there, a lot of threads, like, criticizing their interviewing of this four year old. And like, I know a lot of you at home are like interviewing a four year old. Botched. But we're going to insert a clip of Charlie's interview here. And it's not like a usual interrogation. Like, this is like a warm living room with, like chairs. And this interviewer is like very almost like maternal. It wouldn't like, seem like Charlie knows anything's going on. You know what I mean?

[D]

Yeah, totally. It's tough because I tend to side with the people who don't like when kids are interrogated, but in a situation like this where, I mean, clearly Josh is lying and Susan is missing.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, her phone was in the car.

[D]

The only other witnesses are the kids. I think that they had to ask them questions.

[C]

Yeah. And you know, let us know what you think in the comments. You know, maybe you'll gleam something different from this clip. But I'm curious to see what you guys will think about it.

[D]

So your mom stayed at the park.

[C]

Where did she stay at the park.

[D]

Do you know where she stayed at the national park. Do you know where at the park? No.

[C]

No, she. My mom stayed where a crystal are. So on December 8, at about 7:05pm, search warrants for the Powell's house and Josh's vehicle were officially approved. Which meant that the police could now legally search for and collect evidence. Which leads us to our sixth clue, the home search. Except searching the van wasn't that helpful this time, since, as we know, Josh had cleaned it a lot since it was searched the night before. Could be a botch mark for not impounding it sooner. But again, their hands might have been a little tied. But there was a new trash bag in the van that hadn't been in there the first time. Inside of it, detectives found burnt sheetrock, burned wires, and a strange chunk of burned, partially melted metal. Maxwell thought that Josh had tried to destroy some object that he didn't want them to see, but for some reason just couldn't get rid of it. Maybe didn't have enough time. So police confiscated all the trash from the van and then they moved on to the house. Inside were several tiny spots of blood on the tile floor right near the front door. They were dry, so they must have been there the day before. But police weren't looking closely then. Like, they were just looking for the big picture of like, where's Susan? They're not honed in on the floor yet, so they didn't see them. The dots were actually almost too small to see, but there was just enough blood to photograph, collect and send off for testing. Inside the living room was another blood stain, this one on the freshly cleaned couch. This was in a swipe pattern, meaning it came from a bloody hand or object being brushed across the surface. Since they couldn't get a good sample off the couch, they actually just wrapped the entire sofa in plastic and seized it. And forensic testing by the Utah Crime Lab would later confirm that the blood on the sofa did belong to Susan.

[D]

So later that Same night on December 8, Maxwell was supposed to meet Josh at the police department to return his keys. But Josh is nowhere to be found that night. He's not answering his phones. He never goes home. Charlie and Brayden were staying with Josh's family. And the next time anyone heard from Josh was at 5:40pm the following day. Josh called his mom to say that he had rented a car and bought a new cell phone, which are again, two completely normal things to do in the middle of an active investigation into your missing wife.

[C]

Here I am waving a red flag.

[D]

He said. He spent the last day driving around the Salt Lake City area. So Teresa called Detective Maxwell and gives him this update that. Hey, my son Josh bought a new cell phone, rented a car, and has just been driving around Salt Lake City. She also gives Detective Maxwell Josh's new cell phone number. Later that same evening, Josh went to the police station to collect his keys in his rented Ford Focus. And we're hitting that on the botchboard again.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, again, like, you have enough now. You got a subpoena and a search warrant for his house and van. Why are we not keeping tabs on him? Like. Yeah, especially after, like, he scurried home,

[D]

like, well, the trash showing up in the car. Like, clearly he's still doing things.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

That are sketchy and trying to move stuff around and, I don't know, protect himself. So it would have been nice to keep eyes on him.

[C]

Yeah. Come on. Josh doesn't end up returning the rental car until after 7pm the following day, December 10th. When he did, the people at the rental car place noticed that Josh had actually driven 807 miles in just two days, making Josh's secret trip our seventh clue.

[D]

That's like six hours of driving a day.

[C]

It is so much driving. But unfortunately, the rental car company had no idea that this vehicle was connected to a missing person's case. So they rented it right back out, which that is a mark for me because police get notified he's got a rental car, he goes and picks up his keys in this rental car. Why are we not working ahead and immediately getting that rental car upon its drop off?

[D]

Yeah, if you can. Yeah. If he drove 800 miles or whatever.

[C]

807 miles. So police actually do not get a chance to search it in time to collect any possible evidence. Josh's new cell phone records showed where he might have gone. The very first tower it connected to at 4:37pm on December 9th was in Trematon, Utah. This is about 80 miles north of West Valley City. Josh didn't have any known connections up there, so it was really confusing to investigators. Why be up there?

[D]

Yeah. We talked about kind of how cell phone pinging can inaccurate.

[C]

It can be, yeah. And it is on the way up to Puyallup, Washington, where Josh's dad, Stephen lived. But the phone didn't keep going north from there to the Washington border where his dad was. Instead, it turned around and traveled south back to West Valley City. So what was Josh doing in this rental car?

[D]

Meanwhile, detectives were out still trying to find Susan because she's still missing this entire time. But nothing was panning out. Not no clues were really Being discovered. Maxwell flew out to the Pony Express trail in a highway patrol helicopter, hoping that he would find signs of Josh's campsite. But they didn't find anything. That's when multiple cadaver dogs searched the area, including a few abandoned mines, but nothing turned up. Eventually, the community gets involved in the search and Susan's face is on the evening news every single night. A prayer vigil was organized for Saturday, December 12th at a local church. And Susan's father, Chuck Cox, flew in from Washington to be there. And even though Josh rarely attended church anymore, he showed up to this as well. And later that night, Josh was even seen passing out missing flyers at a Utah Jazz basketball game. But on Monday, December 14, he gets a lawyer and he completely stops cooperating with the investigation. Essentially, he did, however, show up the next day to give a sample of his DNA. Now that the police did have a search warrant, and that was Tuesday, December 15, which was nine days after Susan was last seen. It was also the last day that Detective Maxwell had any contact with Josh or his attorneys regarding the investigation or the disappearance of his wife. Around that same time, a separate team of detectives delivered a subpoena to Wells Fargo bank where Susan worked. Susan's friends and co workers said that she had a safe deposit box there and only she had access to it. But Wells Fargo decided they were going to open the box for the investigators, revealing this huge break in the case.

[C]

One of this week's partners is Warby Parker. I don't know if you guys knew this, but my vision is not great. I need contacts and I need glasses. And despite my prescription changing, I've put off getting new glasses. It always felt super complicated, overpriced, difficult to try on styles that actually made me look good. But that's where Warby Parker came in. Seriously, nothing comes close on quality, price selection and customer service. And their virtual try on was a game changer for me. I could turn my head, move in every direction and the glasses changed and I got a really clear idea of what they're going to look like on me. And let's be real, the best part is the price. Their prescription glasses start at $95. I know in the past I've paid six times that. And hey, if you're looking for new contacts, they have that too. Warby Parker gives you quality and better looking prescription eyewear at a fraction of the going price. Our listeners get 15% off plus free shipping when they buy two or more pairs of prescription glasses. @warbyparker.com slclues that's 15% off when you buy two pairs of glasses at W A R B Y parker.com clues after you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[A]

Every disappearance has a moment where everything still feels normal. A text that doesn't raise concern. A routine that goes unchanged, A door that closes just like it always has. Until it doesn't.

[B]

When someone goes missing, investigators zoom out. The headlines focus on what happened. But the truth often lives in the smallest details.

[A]

I'm Sarah Turney. After my sister disappeared, I learned that those final hours, the last conversations, last decisions, can haunt families forever.

[B]

And I'm Courtney Nicole. After seeing crime impact my own family, I've learned how overlooked moments, missed red flags, and unanswered questions can change everything.

[A]

Together, we're bringing those lived experiences into the work. This is the final hours. A crime House original powered by Pave Studios, A podcast that puts the moments before a disappearance under a microscope.

[B]

We examine the timelines, the. The clues hiding in plain sight, and the questions that never stop being asked.

[A]

Because when it comes to justice, there's no such thing as overanalyzing.

[B]

Listen to and follow the final hours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[A]

New episodes are out every Monday.

[C]

So nine days after Susan Powell went missing, detectives open her safe deposit box at Wells Fargo. Mixed in with savings bonds and important family documents like birth certificates were a set of documents that kind of told the real story about her marriage. Which brings us to our eighth clue. The most telling document was dated June 28, 2008, 18 months before she vanished. It consisted of two sheets of notebook paper folded up and addressed, quote, for family, friends of Susan, all except for Josh Powell, husband, I don't trust him. It was marked as her last will and testament, writing that you don't trust

[D]

your husband on your will.

[C]

Oh, full chills. Like, full body chills. And it just gets worse when they dig further into these documents. Now, this wasn't a legitimate will, but in these documents, Susan explained in it that she wanted to, quote, have a paper trail at work that would not be accessible to my husband. She described how Josh threatened to ruin her in the event of divorce. He said their boys would grow up without a mom and dad if Susan ever left him. And Susan obviously took this threat really seriously. She made a list of people that she wanted investigators to talk to. And she had written some blog posts, online even, and included links to them in case anything ever happened to her. Susan wrote, quote, it is an open fact that we have life insurance policies of over a million if we die in the next four years. And she finished this document with just this eerie, eerie prediction. She said, quote, if I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like one. Take care of my boys.

[D]

It's tough because, you know, people have asked me if they should make the if I go missing. I think crime junkie talks about making if I go missing folders, and oftentimes I will tell people, like, it's. It's so exceptionally rare that that would happen to you. I don't know that it's worth you worrying about so deeply, but this is an actual instance of someone kind of making one of those and it being really helpful in the investigation.

[C]

I know. Well, and going so far as to say, like, if I die, it might look like an accident, but it's not.

[D]

It's not like.

[C]

It's not like she. She had such a read on this and just knew. And it's so. It's so hard. I mean, she. She really prepared this box. And, like, inside, police also discovered a notepad that had someone else's handwriting that it, like, it clearly wasn't Susan's. It actually belonged to one of her friends, Kirsty, who had jotted down a detailed description of a bad fight that Susan and Josh had had on June 27, 2008. And this fight was so bad, this is what really scared Susan into making this secret will. It was really becoming clear to everyone, you know, family and friends that knew them and now the investigators that, like, they fought about two really big things in their life, money and religion. The fight that was on June 27th all started because Josh was yelling at Susan about spending too much money on food. And as for religion, like, Josh had kind of gradually distanced himself from the Mormon faith over the course of their marriage. I mean, he was angry that Susan kept asking him to go to church and pray. And I think a big reason that, you know, Susan kept trying to really make this marriage worth is because she was so steadfast in her faith, and she actually believed that, like, because she married Josh, like, she was married to Josh for eternity, like, even in the afterlife.

[D]

I was just listening to. Because I watch the Mormon mom talk show, and I was listening to Jesse talk about how difficult it is to get divorced in the eyes of the church, where you can get legally divorced on paper, but still be tethered to each other for eternity in the eyes of the church, and, like, not able to marry someone else within the temple or within a Mormon church. So, like, yeah, I understand at least a little bit where she was coming from.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I. I completely get it if. If my faith is telling me that even if I get divorced in this life after I pass, I still am stuck with him for eternity. Yeah, I'd want to stay on Earth and try to fix this while I can.

[D]

Yeah. So unfortunate.

[C]

That's what she kind of did. Like, she was just like, let's go to counseling. Let's try to make this work. Let's get on a good page, because this is eternity, babe. So she really believed that if Josh could go back to church and, like, reconnect with God, he would be a better husband. You know, she. She kind of recognized, like, when he was going to church, he treated me well, like, we were good. Let's get back to that. But it. It obviously didn't end up that way.

[D]

The police started looking deeper into Susan's claims in that document. But on December 18, the investigation got a little bit more challenging when Josh, Charlie, and Brayden all left Utah. Josh, because he wasn't under arrest, was technically allowed to do whatever he wanted. So the police couldn't force him to stay in Utah. He took the boys to his father Steven's house in Puyallup, Washington, for the holidays. But after Christmas passed, they all stayed. They didn't come home. In early January of 2010, Josh officially moved out of their West Valley City home. And police then learned that Josh had been fired from his job. And it might have been over suspicions related to Susan's disappearance. Now, if police wanted to talk to him again, they were going to have to get a little bit more creative. But they did have one person in their corner, and that was Josh's oldest sister, Jennifer. She, this entire time, was incredibly suspicious of her brother. Josh had these two other siblings, though, Alina and Michael, and they were sticking by him. But for the past five years, Jennifer had been Susan's neighbor and good friend. She had really been around for a lot of their marriage, and she watched it deteriorate and saw how Josh became this person that no one recognized anymore. So she told the police essentially, like, pretty early on in the investigation, she was willing to help in any way she could. And so together, Jennifer and the police hatched this plan. On January 10, 2008, West Valley, Utah, detectives went with Jennifer and her husband to Washington, and they put a wire on her. Then they sent her into her father Steven's house to speak with Josh. Because they just wanted to see if anything would come up. When Jennifer brought up the subject of what happened to Susan, Josh's mood completely changes and he starts shutting down. And he says things like, my attorney said not to talk about it. Like he has a script, essentially, that he's following when talking about Susan. Even with his family?

[C]

Even with his family. I was gonna say even with your family.

[D]

Even with his family. He denied knowing where Susan was or having done anything to hurt her. And after Josh left, Jennifer even tries confronting her father, Steven, hoping that he'll say something that will incriminate Josh. Or maybe Josh told him something that he'll tell her. Like maybe she can kind of get around Josh by talking to her dad. She also tells her dad that she thought Josh was guilty. She just comes out and says it.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

And this starts a huge fight.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Stephen throws Jennifer and her husband out of the house. He calls her a to her face, and he tells them to never come back. His own daughter. When Jennifer met back up with the police team, she turned to Detective Maxwell crying, and she says, quote, he killed her. She's not alive. She fully believed she knew what happened after that meeting. But after this conversation, the police are thinking about the way that Steven behaved towards his own daughter. And they start getting suspicious of him as well, because what's going on there? Why is he protecting his son so much? So they start looking into Steven's alibi around the time that Susan went missing as well. Turns out Steven called off work for a family emergency on December 8th and 9th, the two days that Josh was putting all of those miles on a rented Ford Focus. Also the time where Josh's phone was pinging maybe on the way up to his dad's place. Steven denied that he saw Josh during that time. He said he was home the entire time. But this really brought the police's attention to Steven, and they became very interested in the family's financial situation. Remember, one of the reasons that Susan believed Josh may do something to her was for her life insurance. And that's based on the will that she wrote and stashed inside of her safe deposit box.

[C]

Yeah. And it's not a stretch for someone that filed bankruptcy because of 200k of debt. Like, he clearly is really bad with money and needs it.

[D]

Absolutely. And she has this huge life insurance policy. Yeah. And police confirmed that Josh had taken out two separate life insurance policies on Susan. In 2007, when he declared bankruptcy, he pulled out a life insurance policy on her. And in 2008. And those together totaled $1 million. He also insured his own life for a million dollars. And he added a writer with $500,000 in coverage for the boys if their parents passed. Detectives then found a life insurance agent who Josh tried to buy more insurance claims from. But the agent had told Josh that Susan was overinsured already. If Josh was hoping to see any of that money, though, he was mistaken because Susan was so legally considered a missing person, not a deceased person. So none of the claims could be made. But police did discover that Josh had drained Susan's retirement account on December 17, 2009, which was 10 days after Susan disappeared. You don't think that person is coming back if you drain their retirement account? You don't think that they're going to need it.

[C]

That's, you know, they're not going to need it, you know.

[D]

Yes, everything's been incriminating to me. That's the most incriminating part.

[C]

Ten days, you guys. Ten days.

[D]

Ten days.

[C]

And he, I know he was able to do this because everyone's going to be like, how is he able to do this?

[D]

Like, he's power of attorney.

[C]

Yeah, he was the power of attorney. And yeah, just a joke.

[D]

And because of that, there was nothing the police could do to get that money back from Josh. Um, and we just had a note here. But it is pretty common to give your spouse power of attorney if you have assets.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[D]

So it was also discovered at this time, though, that Susan did have a secret savings account where she would put away like $25 at a time. But Josh found out about this and made her transfer all the money back into their joint account and then used that to pay his credit card bill.

[C]

I mean, it just speaks to the financial abuse he was committing. Like, it, like he, he really did abuse her through financial means as well.

[D]

A hundred percent. There was a little bit of indication that Josh might have had a gambling issue. And the financial abuse was because he wanted all of the money for gambling. But they weren't able to get enough proof of that because local casinos had deleted all their surveillance footage every two weeks, which was just common of the casinos in the area. So at this point, the investigation hits a wall, which is crazy because there's just so much stuff that points to Josh. By August of 2010, that's eight months after Susan's disappearance, police had spent 6,850 man hours and $150,000 searching for Susan, and they still had five full time detectives assigned to her case. They couldn't get the district attorney's office to sign off on an arrest charge for Josh without a body.

[C]

Come on. Again, look how much we have.

[D]

I know this was a true nobody, no crime, but they still were not going to give up. It was starting to seem like the only way they were going to find Susan was through a confession. But that wasn't really looking all that great either. On the one year anniversary of Susan's disappearance, December 6, 2010, Josh's family publicly claimed that Susan must have run off with another man. And they actually had an idea of who it was. This guy, Stephen Kosher, he also went missing in December of 2009. There was no evidence whatsoever that the two even knew each other. He just also happened to be a missing person from the same time. Steven was a journalist in Salt Lake City. He went missing in Nevada. But other than the fact that Steven was lds like Susan, no overlap at all.

[C]

Yeah, no, it's like they googled like missing person, also Mormon.

[D]

Like, Steven's case is also, like, very weird. So unrelated, he was in the car driving around and his family couldn't get a hold of him. And then he just kind of vanished. And no one knows what happened, but absolutely no evidence that the two knew each other. Josh's dad, though, was pretty adamant about this. He even said he thought the couple was in Brazil where Kosher served his mission. By now, the police were starting to get really suspicious of Josh's dad. They're like, why are you doubling down on this story that feels like it's so irrelevant to the entire case? And so over the next nine months, they really start trying to hone in on Steven. I mean, he already just. There's so many sketchy, weird things about him. Yeah, he's protecting his son. He's really taking these wild theories very seriously.

[C]

I mean, he's even going on and talking about having Susan's journals, too. And he's like, I've got her journals. But he won't. He won't give them to police. So, like, police have to go about it legally to get them subpoenaed even.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Like, what are you doing, dude?

[D]

What are you doing? Well, it's not very long until the police discover that this guy has some serious skeletons in his closet.

[C]

Massive skeletons. On August 25, 2011, the police go up to Stephen Powell's house in Puyallup. They are armed with a search warrant. They were hoping to find anything that would conclusively tie Josh to Susan's disappearance or even lead to a body. And again, like, it was him. Talking about having these journals, I believe that, like, really prompted this search. Instead, they find something completely unexpected, which is clue number nine for us here. Detectives search computers and hard drives taken from Steven's home and discover that Steven was taking explicit voyeuristic photos and videos of two underaged girls in the neighborhood. The next month, Stephen was arrested for child pornography and voyeurism. They found thousands of pages of journals in which Stephen confessed to his fetish for voyeurism. He documented a lot in these written journals and in video journals, and it was very, very, very clear that he had a favorite target. And that was Susan.

[D]

Oh, yeah, big time.

[C]

Oh, you guys. Like, when we get into this right now, like, it is absolutely disgusting. So if you can't handle discussions about stuff like this today, please just skip ahead.

[D]

Honestly, from this point on, this episode only gets worse. So if you're with us through the end, like, buckle up and let us know. But we're about to get into this together.

[C]

Yeah. So these journals dated back to a time when Josh and Susan lived with Stephen. Again, we kind of mentioned this that, like, they have. They actually moved because things got strained.

[D]

Got strained and no one really knew what happened. But they're about to find out.

[C]

Yeah. It. It comes out that during this time, Steven had become obsessed with Susan. He actually believed he was in love with her and was completely convinced that she actually shared his feelings. He would spy on Susan underneath the bathroom doors while she was showering and going to the bathroom. He would, like, slip a mirror under the crack of the doors. He would steal her used hygiene products. He would steal her panties. There's actually a video clip because he was, like, taking all of his home videos and, like, journaling with them. And there's a video clip of him talking about how excited he gets when she gets home and she goes to shower and so he can, like, get to her clothes that are dirty.

[D]

Was that, like, a video? I didn't see that video, but that was, like, a video diary he had made.

[C]

So there's a couple. There's, like, this one. He was, like, showing her T shirt and would, like. He was zooming in on the armpits of her T shirt and, like.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And then moved on to, like, videotaping her bra and, like, as he's, like, petting her bra and, like, he videotaped everything.

[D]

Oh, that is some serial killer stuff right there.

[C]

Yeah. And then, like, he. He just goes on to, like, talk about these. These fantasies of, like, masturbating to thoughts of Susan or Objects that belong to her. I mean, even, like, sniffing her hairbrush would on. And there's this one clip of him, and he's, like, sitting on his bed, camera set up a little ways back. So he's almost, like, interviewing himself or his video diary. And he's talking about this experience where, like, Susan had a cold, and he gives her a foot massage, and he's talking about her feet and her toes. And clearly, like, oh, no, no. In all these videos, he's, like, really honing in on her feet and stuff. And he's like, yeah, Josh was sitting in a chair. And, you know, when he wasn't looking, I would. I would take liberties.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[C]

And he was like. He's like, I had her foot in my crotch. And, like, I'm just like, no, no, no, no, please, no. It was really bad. And we're gonna play a couple of the clips we can for you here, just so you kind of get an idea. And just like, like, I'm not. When you hear his voice, chills.

[F]

I just had what is probably the most erotic experience I've had in my entire life. Susan has been feeling ill. She had a cold, and I offered to rub her feet, to rub her toes, to give her some stimulants. She is so beautiful. Can't even get enough of her. Can't get enough of looking at her. She's so, so pretty.

[C]

There were so, so, so many hours of home videos of Steven and Susan together. A lot of them were normal family activities. But I watched a psychologist actually break down all of this. And she basically says, like, this was a part of his ploy to, like, oh, you have his son in there. And it's like, oh, no, no, no. These are just normal family videos. And so that's why it was so hard for someone like Susan, who's the victim and all this, to like, even distinguish that this, like, isn't okay.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And you have to consider, too, when all this started. She's a very young woman, like, sheltered life, college. And so the psychologist really breaks this down. And we'll include the video link for you here because it is really interesting. But it's just like, it. It's like, it makes sense why this was happening and how he was able to do this. There's one final, like, clip I'll talk about. And in his car, it sounded like they were driving. And so he's accidentally recording this conversation. And in it, he does confess his feelings to Susan. But it is very clear they're not reciprocated. It's actually kind of confusing because she's just like so shocked or seemingly shocked. That's what I gathered. She's not even responding to him as he's like, I love you and all this stuff. And she kind of just is like, where are you going with this? She says that she's like, where are you going with this? And she's like, I'm your daughter in law. Like, she's clearly awkward.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And shutting it down. And it was shortly after that that they moved out. And based on Steven's journals, like Susan did tell Josh about all of this happening. But Steven wrote in his journals how he tried to convince Josh that it was all Susan's fault. She had been tempting him with, quote, her little enticements, which I keep hearing

[D]

that sentiment from both of these men. It was all Susan's fault. Josh telling the police that the therapist needed to beat the mother out of Susan because it was her fault that they were having marital issues. And now it's actually Susan's fault that the dad is in love with her. Like, no accountability.

[C]

No, none. And what I really gathered from these journals though is like, Stephen's obviously a delusional, sick. But there's an entry from 12:35am on December 8, 2009, 14 hours after Susan disappeared. And he goes, quote, I am feeling sick. It is possible that Susan is dead. He goes on to write and like, this is over the course of like many hours because he can't sleep. So he couldn't sleep. He's so distraught he'd wake up. Journal more. And he goes on to say, quote, I fear the worst. I think Susan is dead. And Josh spent the 20 hour lacuna disposing of her body far away. I mean, he himself finds this story Josh tells investigators of the camping trip, like, so implausible. He calls it implausible. Yeah, it's just, it's crazy. He goes on to say the whole thing sounds so wrong. Even if it had nothing to do with disposing of Susan's body. Why would anyone do that?

[D]

And this is what, 14 hours after Susan went missing. So this is really, it's right after, before anyone even has any idea he knew. The cops don't. Yeah.

[C]

Like, and yet he calls his daughter a. In defense of this son that he journals. Oh, I think he could do it. And then he comes out later to advocate for this other missing person that, oh, they ran away together.

[D]

Actually, maybe I'm just thinking because they have the same first name and ties to lds, but it, like, is giving Josh Duggar, in some ways, just the weirdness of it, the protection of the parents, even at the. Even to the detriment of the children, the other children involved. Just horrible stuff.

[C]

Yeah, really, really bad. So after this, police are now kind of able to get involved and start removing the kids from the home.

[D]

So Charlie and Braden, who were living with Steven at the time, were temporarily placed in foster care. As child protection, investigators looked into the rest of the family and whether, you know, these other families knew more about Steven's behavior. They couldn't go home to Josh's house or anyone else's until a judge decided where they should live. And this kicked off a huge custody battle between Susan and Josh's parents. In September of 2011, Susan's parents, Chuck and Judy Cox, won temporary custody of Charlie and Braden. At the time, the boys were 6 and 4. Josh had two supervised weekly visits with the boys. Supervised. And they first took place at a foster care facility and then at a friend's home, but eventually at his own house. And a CPS agent would go to the house and watch these interactions. But Josh wanted the kids back full time. So there was a custody hearing that was set for February of 2012. Meanwhile, the police took another look at the computers that they had seized from Josh and Susan's home when they did their very first search back in 2009. And when the custody hearing began on February 1st, they presented something that they felt like was huge and that the courts needed to know about. And that's the, like, porn that was on Josh's computer. There's a couple different descriptions of the stuff that they found. Here we have that it was cartoon images, but a lot of the images depicted incestuous abuse, including abuse involving minors. It's confusing as to what it actually was. And I know that there's debate over, did they buy the computer from these teen boys in the area that may have downloaded these images before Josh owned the computer? Like, there were some questions over whose images they weren't. I guess, technically, yeah. But when you put it in the context of all of the weird stuff that Stephen's been doing, like, oh, my God, it just raises all these red flags.

[C]

Yeah. Like, did the apple far fall far? Like, where'd this apple live? Exactly.

[D]

You're like, is this just some horrible sickness that is in this family? But because of the laws at the time, I mean, it's the same laws today. These are cartoon images, so they don't technically count as child sex abuse material, which is insane.

[C]

And like, this is where AI now is getting so bad and scary. Like, I mean, what you can do with AI and create images like this needs to be addressed.

[D]

Yeah, of course. And so there's really nothing the courts can do. So he definitely, like, couldn't get arrested over these images, basically. But the judge was still very concerned about the stuff that was found on Josh's computer. So he orders Josh to undergo a psychosexual evaluation. And this was not going to be his first evaluation. Josh had completed another one prior to these images being found on his computer. The exam that he had done before wasn't too bad for Josh. The psychologist diagnosed him with adjustment disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. But he also recommended that Josh continue to have visitations with Charlie and Braden. So this psychologist didn't think that there was anything wrong enough with Josh that he shouldn't be able to see his children. But a new test was needed now to evaluate whether he might abuse his kids. In the meantime, Charlie and Braden needed to stay with the Coxes, but Josh was still allowed to have his twice weekly supervised visits. And so then Josh went and had the first of what was going to be two psych evaluations done. And in the first one, the psychologist found that the family did have a genuine bond and believed that the boys would benefit from continuing to see their father.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, the boys were really rocked at this point with Susan being gone. Like, there's the saddest quote where, like, the youngest, shortly after her disappearance, was like, holding a cardboard box with a picture of a woman on it and said, mommy. Like, this is just, like, they didn't want to damage these kids anymore.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And so.

[D]

So they decided that they should continue to see their dad, but there was still gonna be a second evaluation that needed to be done. And that was what was because of the images that were found on the computer. And that was gonna be all about Josh's sexual behavior and his desires. And there was going to be a specialized polygraph test that actually measures sexual arousal. It's a very strange test. I've seen it. It's obviously very invasive. They try to basically show you the worst things you've ever seen and see if it, like, arouses you.

[C]

That's insane.

[D]

I'm wondering if there's going to be articles in the future written about how maybe that's also bunk science, like regular polygraphs, because it's a. It's just a very strange.

[C]

Yeah, I'd love to know. It's effectiveness and validity.

[D]

It was going to be. What they decided, though, was an expert opinion on whether or not he was capable of being abusing his sons. Yeah, but that test never happened because just four days after this court hearing, the case took an incredibly dark turn. And so once again, before we get into this next section, there's another warning, but this includes violence against children. So on Sunday, February 5, 2012, a social worker took Charlie and Braden to Josh's home in Puyallup for a supervised. And this was how things have been going for a couple months up until this point, because Josh and the Coxes did not want to see each other. So social workers would pick up the boys from their grandparents place, take them to Josh's house, and then would stay there while they visited and supervise. But this time was different. This time, the social worker let Charlie and Braden walk ahead of her up to Josh's front porch. The way she describes it, they were truly like one or two steps ahead of her. When the door opened, the boys run inside. They were excited to see their dad. And then Josh looked directly at the social worker, slammed the door in her face and locked it. And moments later, the social worker smelled gasoline and called 911. We're gonna play a clip of this 911 call. It is incredibly upsetting to hear in hindsight. And also, the 911 dispatcher needs to go to jail for this call. Take a listen.

[G]

Hey. I'm on a supervised visitation for a court ordered visit, and something really weird has happened. The kids went into the house and. And the parent, the biological parent, whose name is Josh Powell, will not let me in the door. What should I do? What's the address? It's 8119 and I think it's 89th. I don't know what the address is.

[E]

That's pretty important for me to know,

[G]

but I think I need help right away. He's on a very short lease with cshs and CPS has been involved. And this is the craziest thing. He looked right at me and closed the door. Are you there?

[E]

Yes, ma'. Am. I'm just waiting to know where you are.

[G]

Okay. How long will it be?

[E]

I don't know, ma'.

[D]

Am.

[E]

They have to respond to emergency life threatening situations first. The first available deputy.

[G]

This could be life threatening.

[D]

So you can hear in this call, she says, quote, this could be life threatening. He went to court on Wednesday and he didn't bring his kids back. And this is really, I'm afraid for their lives. And the dispatcher goes ahead and says things like you know, she asks when the police are going to arrive and he goes, well, there's actual life threatening emergencies that they have to attend to first.

[C]

Go yourself, go yourself. There's also this social worker like should not have been put in this position even. Like this is just like so sad all around. And yeah, there's like she's freaking out

[D]

so hard at the beginning and she can't remember the exact address so she's trying to find it in her notes. And the 911 dispatcher is just being such a brat about it, being like, well, I can't send anyone if you don't tell me where to go.

[C]

Horrible. That's going to be good for someone who's having a panic attack and trying to get you the info, like, come on.

[D]

And she does a great job. I mean, she keeps her composure as much as she can because she has just a really horrible feeling about what's going to happen. So she's sitting outside of the house basically waiting for law enforcement to arrive, you know, so she can tell them what's going on and how she's fearing for the kids lives. And that's when she hears an explosion. There's smoke everywhere, there's fire. And by the time all of that clears, three people are dead inside the house. Josh, Charlie and Brayden. And this is probably the worst thing that I'll read in this entire case, but when the police go inside, you know, they have to confirm that all three of them died. And they're able to tell that both boys did have chopping injuries to their head and neck, meaning that Josh did try to kill them before the fire happened, but they also had smoke damage inside their lungs. So that didn't happen. And he must have just set that whole house on fire. Absolutely horrible. And the official cause of death was ruled to be carbon monoxide inhalation. That happened after the explosion.

[C]

Just horrific. Absolutely horrific.

[D]

So today, 16 years after Susan's disappearance and 13 years after Josh's horrific final act, police are pretty sure that Josh killed Susan. But there's really not much that they can do about it anymore. Her body is still missing. They have no idea what happened to her. The person they think that did it is no longer alive to convict. But police, you know, they still continue to follow any tips they can get, get about her possible location. She still has family out there that's looking for closure. It's still important that we figure out where she is. In 2013, they learned that not long after Susan vanished, Josh's brother Michael had Taken his own Ford Taurus to a salvage yard out of state to be crushed. Now, there's other weird things about Michael, too, that we didn't super get into in this episode. But, you know, Michael sold his card to a salvage yard out of state two weeks after Susan went missing. And a few years later, cadaver dogs indicated human decomposition in that car's trunk, which allowed cops to impound it and test it for DNA. But all of that came back inconclusive. So they just don't know if Susan was ever in that car. On February 12, 2013, just days after police started asking about the car and searching the salvage yard, Michael leapt off of a five story building in Minnesota and he took his own life. Later that year, police released thousands of pages of case files, which were used extensively when we were researching this episode. As for Stephen Powell, he was, you know, released from prison in 2017, but he died a year later at the age of 68. He went to his grave still denying any involvement in Susan's disappearance. And he insisted that she left the country with Steven Kosher and is in Brazil having an affair with another man.

[C]

Which is bullshit because then if you look at his diaries, there is an entry that says, quote, I want for Josh to be with his boys, but I'm also angry with him for murdering such a beautiful woman. He predicted this. Like, if you look at his diaries, there's another quote from him, quote, that he could do such a thing once suggests that he could do it again if things go too badly, he could murder the boys.

[D]

The amount of stuff he wrote down is just so appalling.

[C]

Come on.

[D]

Yeah, the fact that we have it all in writing from Stephen and he

[C]

still is advocating and spreading this lie, still saying that.

[D]

I mean, just the whole family is poisoned. Like, except for Jennifer. You know, his sister was ultimately very helpful. His mom Teresa was also suspicious of him, it sounds like. But just the men in that family. What is going on? Susan's parents ended up suing Washington State Department of Social and Health Services for failing to do enough to protect Charlie and Brayden from their father during a visit. And after years of legal wrangling, the Coxes won nearly a hundred million dollars in a settlement which was upheld by an Appeals court in 2023. Of course, absolutely no amount of money can replace those children. A hundred million dollars is not even close to being worth it. But the Coxes hope that their lawsuit will help make child protection authorities more proactive in protecting kids from dangerous parents. Yeah, and that is really the last update that we have on this case is that lawsuit from 2023.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of loose ends and theories in this. Something that I found really interesting is Josh's family going after all of that life insurance. They really tried to get it. I mean, Josh made some changes after Susan went missing, which is. It's crazy that he was even allowed to do this, but he did make changes. And like, Susan's parents, who were beneficiaries, were taken off and only his siblings and father were beneficiaries then. And after this tragedy where he, you know, he did this to his kids, his family tried to collect on those policies. Like, I thought that was just insane. It does also come out that about a year before Susan went missing, a friend of Josh's had had a conversation with him where he told this friend how to get rid of a body and to put it in an old mineshaft.

[D]

Yeah, you had mentioned that.

[C]

And he went so far as to be like, yeah, and then you poke around the sides and it caves in and no one wants to go in there. Like, very detailed description. And so when all of this happened, the friend is like, whoa, whoa, wait.

[D]

Yeah, like he had been thinking about this and planning.

[C]

I had this conversation a year ago.

[D]

What I know. Would they even ever find her, though, if that's what he did?

[C]

I don't know. I will say the investigators really did take this seriously from the jump. You know, they got a helicopter. They did look in old minds.

[A]

They.

[C]

They did, yeah. Some really good things to try to get this solved. But again, like, we have marks here because they kind of let Josh slip through their fingers early on. And yeah, it was a lot of

[D]

not surveilling someone who was clearly a threat. And then in the end, still giving him access to his children.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

When he was not stable.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

At all.

[C]

No. I mean, they never should have allowed him to have visitations at his own home. Like, no one should have been put in that position. No, but that is all we have.

[D]

You know, we always like to end each case with a little bit of activism. So we wanted to talk about the Refuge Utah, which is a non profit that helps helps domestic violence survivors in Utah find safe emergency and transitional housing after leaving an abuser. They also offer support groups, victim advocacy, and more. They have a 24 hour domestic violence hotline that can be reached at 801-377-5500. You can call anytime for any reason, not too big or too small. You can also find them attherefugeutah.org and another source that I wanted to mention is specifically for people who share Susan's identity as members of the LDS Church. Susan's faith was incredibly important to her. But according to an LDS domestic violence advocate and social worker named Laura Brignon, at the time of Susan's disappearance, the church actually didn't promote outside resources for survivors of abuse. It was all handled internally, it seems. As a result, Laura says, many survivors only ever received support from clergy members who were not trained in addressing domestic violence or other forms of abuse. So in 2018, the LDS Church launched a new website, abuse. LDS.org and it includes an international list of hotlines and other outside organizations dedicated to helping survivors of abuse. And then also we wanted to take a sec to honor the people who are still advocating for Susan. The Coxes have established the Susan Cox Powell foundation to preserve Susan's memory and advocate for survivors of domestic violence. They continue to work with both law enforcement and private investigators looking for Susan's body. Over the years, there's been dozens of moments where it seemed like police were on the verge of finally locating Susan's remains. But every time it turned out to just be another bout of false hope. Maybe someday we will get answers to this. Detective Maxwell retired from the West Valley City Police Department in 2016, and now he actually works as a private investigator. He has vowed to continue searching for Susan's body on his own until she's either found or his life ends. Just really impressive that he wants to stay involved for so long.

[C]

Absolutely. I mean again, he did really try on this case, but

[D]

we're just not allowed to go off of a parent.

[C]

I know.

[D]

So tough.

[C]

It's really tough. But on that note, we move on to our missing person case of the week. We are highlighting the case of Rachel Cook.

[D]

This week Rachel was visiting her parents home in Georgetown, Texas in early 2002. She was on winter vacation from her school at San Diego Mesa College in San Diego, California. She was last seen by her family in the early morning hours of January 10, 2002 when her mother left for work. It's believed Rachel departed her family's residence at approximately 9:30am for her daily four mile run. Rachel was last seen approximately 200 yards away from her residence. Walking towards her residence. She was described as wearing a gray running outfit, a green sports bra, ASICS running shoes. She was also wearing a yellow walkman on her arm with sports style headphones. And the FBI is offering a reward of up to $50,000 for information leading to the location of Rachel Louise Cook. She's described as 5 foot 3 at the time of her disappearance. 115 pounds, white female with blue slash hazel eyes and blonde hair with low lights. She was born on May 10, 1982 and she has two heart shaped cherries tattooed on her left shoulder and a black star tattooed on her left foot near her pinky toe. Rachel also has multiple ear piercings and a navel piercing. If you have any information concerning this person, you can call 1-800- call FBI. That's 1-800-225-5324 or submit a tip online

[C]

at tips.FBI.gov it will be almost 24 years since Rachel went missing. So if you have any information, please call and share this poster. Again. We, you know, we really want to highlight these cases and make, you know, assets that are shareable for you guys and highlight them in your communities. So all of the assets and the missing poster will be on the Clues podcast, Instagram. Head over there if you want to share it. And we appreciate your help in highlighting all of these cases and continuing to comment other cases and bring them to our our eyes.

[D]

Yeah, we get all of these from you guys.

[C]

So this is, we really are, yeah, we're really turning to the comments and highlighting what you guys share with us. So keep adding and make sure you add all of your thoughts and comments and feedback on this case in the comments.

[D]

Yeah, that's all we have for today. Now we just turn it over to you guys. Let us know what you think about this case. I mean obviously we've really shared our thoughts on it. It's an incredibly upsetting one, but hopefully some good and some advocacy can come from it. And Susan's found one day.

[C]

Absolutely. Crime House. We really value your support. So again, share all your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review and follow clues.

[D]

Subscribe and subscribe.

[C]

Subscribe to help others discover our show. Until next time, bye bye.

[E]

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