B (8:27)

Foreign.

A (8:33)

Bundy transferred to the University of Washington. It seemed like the move to Seattle was a fresh start. He decided to study Chinese, thinking he could work in the State Department someday as a liaison to East Asia. It might seem like kind of a random choice, but with Ted, everything was calculated. In his mind, working for the government was the kind of position that would give him the authority and control to he wanted so badly. The change of scenery also helped Ted get something else. He wanted a girlfriend. It wasn't long before he hit it off with a classmate named Diane Edwards, a beautiful, driven young woman from a wealthy California family. When they started dating, it seemed like Ted finally found everything he wanted. But the problem was, he didn't feel like he was good enough for Diane. She expected a lot from a boyfriend, and he tried to live up to those expectations and by dressing better and improving his conversational skills. But he couldn't handle the pressure. Sometime in 1967, when Ted was 20 or 21, he was starting to question everything, including his career goals. His grades took a nosedive, and he was still overcome with unhealthy sexual desires. Ted thought that having a loving girlfriend would stop him from fantasizing about violence. But now he was afraid that those thoughts would never truly go away. Things only got worse when Diane dumped Ted after about a year of dating. The breakup confirmed his worst insecurities, and instead of proving them wrong, he gave in to them. The next year, in 1968, Ted dropped out of college. He spent the next few months traveling aimlessly around the country, not doing much of anything. But Ted hadn't completely given up on making something of himself. So when an old friend suggested getting involved in politics, he gave it a chance. Just like his dream of working for the State Department, being in politics would give Ted some of the authority and control he was so desperate for by giving him something to be in charge of. He started out by volunteering for Arthur Fletcher's campaign for Lieutenant governor of Washington. Fletcher didn't win, but Ted loved the experience anyways. It gave him the sense of purpose he'd been missing ever since his breakup with Diane. So he decided to give a career in politics a real shot. In 1969, when Ted was 22, he enrolled at Temple University in Philadelphia to pursue a degree in urban planning. But even with his renewed sense of purpose, he still struggled with the darkness inside of him. He went back to his old habit of peeping wearing a fake mustache and a wig while he stalked the campus at night. By this point, his sexual fantasies had become even more disturbing. Now he wasn't just thinking about abducting the women he stalked. He wanted to sexually abuse them and kill them too. And at some point during his first semester in Philadelphia, Ted decided to give in to those desires. One night in 1969, the 23 year old drove to Ocean City, New Jersey and tried to approach a young woman outside of a bar. His plan was to kidnap her once her guard was down. But apparently the conversation didn't go the way he planned. Eventually, Ted tried to grab the woman, but she was thankfully able to escape. Meanwhile, Ted rushed back home and managed not to get caught. Tragically, the experience only made him more determined to try again. After only a couple months at Temple University, Ted moved back to Washington with a new scheme. By day, he would work hard to appear as normal as possible, to seem like he was above suspicion. Once that image was in place, he could unleash his dark side at night. A Persona he called the entity that was the real Ted Bundy. The one he'd been struggling to contain all his life. And now he was ready to embrace it. The first step of Ted's plan was to find another steady girlfriend. In September of 1969, he met a divorced single mother named Elizabeth Klepfer at a bar. 24 year old Elizabeth was smart and mature. She had to be to take care of her three year old daughter all on her own. From the moment they started dating, Elizabeth was clear she was looking for something serious. So if Ted expected to stay with her, he would need to get his act together. That played right into Ted's hands. He told Elizabeth he was planning to go back to college, then law school after he graduated. And Elizabeth took him at his word. She had so much faith in him, she even paid his tuition. When he went back to the University of Washington in 1970, Ted's twisted plan had finally given him the motivation he needed to succeed. He became an honor student, got involved in local politics, and was seen as a rising star in the community. Which was exactly what Ted wanted people to think. Nobody suspected that this clean cut, respectable young man was going out at night, watching young women in bars and following them home. Sometimes he went up to his targets while they were still at the bar and took them out on dates if they were interested. He cheated on Elizabeth constantly with multiple one night stands. On top of that, he loved to steal from people just for the thrill of it. He robbed homes and shoplifted from businesses, taking things like clothes, stereos, and even an eight foot tree from a local nursery. Elizabeth never knew about the cheating, Although she did pick up on the rampant sale theft. It bothered her, but she mostly dismissed it as a small flaw in her otherwise perfect boyfriend. It actually distracted her from prying into what he got up to at night. They didn't live together, but whenever she noticed he was out late, she assumed he was going around stealing rather than doing something much worse. So for the next few years, Ted kept living his double life. In 1972, he graduated from the University of Washington and was accepted to a couple of law schools. At 26 years old, he finally felt like he was making something of himself. But it still wasn't enough. Ted's impulses were getting even darker, and it wouldn't be long before he unleashed them. He'd later describe the dark feeling inside of him as an intense pressure in his gut, Like a tension that kept winding tighter and tighter. He was consumed with rage, and no amount of peeping, stealing or fantasizing could make it go away. Ted wanted to up the ante even more, but he'd learned from his first attempt to kidnap a woman that things might not go the way he planned. Ted was a planner, and as always, he wanted to be prepared for every possibility. To make sure he didn't get caught, he decided to learn everything he could about how the police operated. So Ted deferred his law school admission and used his political connections to get a job with the Seattle Crime Prevention Advisory Commission. Working there gave Ted access to all kinds of data on violent crime. He learned about the investigative techniques detectives commonly used and that communication between different jurisdictions was limited. After About a year, 26 year old Ted felt like he'd learned what he needed. He left the crime commission and enrolled at a local law school in the fall of 1973. But his concentration was starting to waver. His desire to dominate and destroy was overwhelming him. And in early 1974, Ted took it to another level. Think about some of the cases that defined true crime in America. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer. The kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. The Karen retrial. Some crime cases are so shocking, they don't just make headlines, they forever change a country. I'm Katie Ring, host of America's Most Infamous Crimes. Each week I take on one of the most notorious criminal cases, Whether it's unfolding now or etched into American history, Revealing not just what happened, but how it forever changed our society. Serial killers who terrorized cities unsolved mysteries that kept detectives up at night, and investigations that changed the way we think about justice. Each case unfolds across multiple episodes, released every Tuesday through Thursday, from the first sign that something was wrong to the moment the truth came out or didn't. These are the stories behind the headlines. Listen to and follow America's most infamous crimes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. On the night of January 4, 1974, Ted drove to the University District in Seattle neighborhood that was popular with students. Ted liked to peep on young women there, and that night he decided to prey on 18 year old Karen Sparks, a freshman political science major who lived in the basement of a house she shared with some friends. Karen was pretty brunette and had her hair parted down the middle. From far away, she looked a lot like Ted's ex girlfriend, Diane Edwards. Whether that was Ted's reason for choosing Karen, he was dangerously fixated on her. He followed Karen home, blending in with all of the other students who were out that night. He hung back as Karen went inside and got ready for bed, then watched her sleep through a small window. It wasn't long before he was overwhelmed by rage and desire. He slipped through an unlocked door on the opposite side of the house, then made his way to Karen's room. It would have only taken one creaky floorboard or someone heading to the kitchen for a late night snack to stop him, but the place was quiet as Ted crept down to the basement completely undetected. For a moment, Ted just watched Karen sleep. He'd pushed his obsession with peeping to its limit, but it wasn't enough for him. All of the sudden, he ripped off a piece of her bed frame and swung it into Karen's skull before she could even take a look at her attacker. Karen went limp, blood seeping into her mattress. Ted sexually assaulted her, beat her even more, then left her for dead. Once he finished, he sneaked back out as quietly as he'd entered. For hours, none of Karen's housemates realized something was wrong. It wasn't until 2:30 the following afternoon that someone noticed that she hadn't come out of her room. One of the young men who lived with her peeked inside and saw Karen bundled up in bed, covered by a pile of blankets. He figured she was sleeping and left her alone. But five hours later, so this would be around 7:30pm she was still there. At that point, someone went back in to check on Karen. When she didn't answer, they pulled back her blankets and realized what had Happened to her. Miraculously, Karen was still alive, although she'd fallen into a coma. She was rushed to the hospital as news spread around campus that a young woman had been attacked. The police launched an investigation, but there wasn't much to go on. Ted hadn't left anything behind at the scene. And these were the days before DNA profiling. Although Ted certainly hadn't planned for Karen to survive the attack, his horrific plan had otherwise gone just as he'd wanted. Even after Karen woke up from her coma 10 days later, she wasn't able to identify him. So after less than a month, he decided it was time to strike again. After midnight on February 1, 1974, Ted went back to the same neighborhood where he'd nearly killed Karen Sparks. He ended up only a couple minutes away from her house, outside another basement apartment. This one belonged to 21 year old Linda Ann Healy, a senior at Washington University. Linda had gone out with some friends to a popular college bar called Dante's. After some drinks and dancing, she called it an early night. She watched TV with her roommate, then chatted with her boyfriend on the phone for about an hour before falling asleep. Linda had no idea that the whole time, Ted Bundy had been stalking her and he was desperate for another victim. That night, Linda and her housemates had left their front door unlocked, and Ted was able to enter without anybody noticing. He made his way to Linda's room and beat her until she was unconscious. But he'd learned from his experience with Karen Sparks. Instead of continuing his assault in Linda's room, he dressed her in a blouse and jeans and cleaned up the evidence as best he could, including making her bed. Then he dragged her out into the night. Ted managed to get Linda in his car and drove to a secluded spot where he knew nobody would find them. There, he sexually assaulted and murdered her. Afterwards, he dismembered her body, scattering the remains off to the side of the road. On Taylor Mountain, about 18 miles from Seattle. He raced back home to his girlfriend Elizabeth and climbed into bed like nothing was wrong. Linda Ann Healy was officially Ted Bundy's first confirmed murder victim. But she wouldn't be his last. For this show, we're going to be doing a Q and A at the end of each episode, so if you have any questions or comments, make sure to let us know on social so we can talk about them at the end.

B (21:39)

In cases like these, you have to ask yourself what would have happened if Ted Bundy was raised in a loving, supportive household? What do you think he would have been like?

A (21:47)

To preface this. I'm not a forensic psychologist, but I do love forensic psychology. And the hard thing with Ted Bundy's story is that there are a lot of conflicting accounts. As I said earlier, Ted claims that his childhood was completely normal, that he had no abuse, and that nothing in his childhood affected the crimes he did later in his life. There are, however, other accounts from family members and biographers that his grandfather was abusive. So we have that conflicting thing. But when it comes to serial killers, we see a lot of abuse earlier in life. But the other hand, there's a lot of people who have had and experienced much more severe abuse that haven't turned out to be serial killers.

B (22:30)

It's terrifying to see how calculated Ted was, how everything he did was for the sole purpose of getting away with being a serial killer. How do you think he managed to appear so normal externally for as long as he did?

A (22:42)

Most psychologists say that Ted Bundy showed strong signs of psychopathy. And one thing that's interesting is that researchers are now suggesting that traits of psychopathy actually have biological components, particularly in how the brain is wired. So, on one hand, we have people who have been severely abused in childhood who have not become serial killers or even violent. And on the other side, we do have psychopaths who have grown up in seemingly normal houses and have become serial killers. So I believe that upbringing doesn't determine everything, but it can shape how traits unfold, like abuse, Attachment disruption, identity confusion, and abandonment can all impact development in meaningful ways. So could a loving, stable household have changed his path? Possibly. But the short and somewhat unsatisfying answer is that we'll never know. So, going back to psychopathy, many psychopaths actually have an unsettling ability to blend in. So, as children, a lot of them are looked at as weird or don't fit in. But over time, they're able to observe how people have interpersonal relationships, and they can actually model that very well. So even though they may not feel emotions deeply, they can perform them very convincingly. And a lot of them aren't just good at blending in. They are actually very charismatic, charming, and even magnetic. So I think that's part of the reason Ted Bundy's story fascinated people so much. Because before cases like this, many people imagined serial killers as monsters or some, like, obvious weirdos. But Bundy didn't fit that image. Like, he was educated. He fit in socially. He had relationships and was even described as charming or even attractive, which I do not agree with. But that's what some people thought regarding the Fact that a lot of his actions seemed very calculated in not getting caught. We do see most serial killers creating kind of Personas to hide their crimes. But Bunny did take it further. He tended to gravitate towards positions of authority. He wanted to get into politics. He studied law. He volunteered with the Seattle Police Department. These all gave him credibility and a sense of power. But in my opinion, it's not supported by any facts. But I believe that he did get kind of a thrill of being in these positions of authority, but also getting away with his primes, like right under their noses.

B (25:26)

His choice of victim does seem to be clear. How he went after women who were stand ins for his girlfriend or maybe his mom, women he felt like had wronged him, and how he wanted to ultimately have control over them. It makes you wonder again about the psychology behind killers with this mindset and if things could have been different if he'd gotten the help he clearly needed.

A (25:46)

What do you think? As we kind of discussed earlier in the episode, a lot of his victims did resemble his ex girlfriend. And one thing that I didn't know before I did this deep dive for this episode is that he actually won back that girlfriend that originally broke up with him. And he won her back, proposed to her, and then completely ghosted her with no explanation. And given his psychopathy and his narcissistic traits, that doesn't surprise me at all. Many psychologists interpret that as an attempt to reclaim power and control. So it's not about love, it's kind of about winning and punishment. So although he never said he chose victims that reminded him of his ex, I think that there was something inside of him that did want to punish her and that's why he chose some victims that resembled her. Unfortunately, traditional therapy hasn't been very successful with psychopaths. However, there are studies on early intervention, especially focused on parenting, social skills and emotional regulation that have shown promising results. So again, we never know whether early interventions would have actually helped or not. But there is some promising research that maybe in the future we can help lead kids with these traits in a better direction. Okay, we're about to go over the time limit, but I will be breaking down some more of my thoughts or your guys questions in the next episodes as well as some of my top safety tips as a self defense instructor. Thanks so much for joining me for this episode. If you're watching on YouTube, make sure to subscribe. If you're listening on audio, please rate, review and follow America's Most Infamous Crimes. And to get all of the episodes at once ad free. Subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. Come back tomorrow for episode two on Ted Bundy. Thank you for listening to America's Most Infamous Crimes. To hear the rest of the story about Ted Bundy, follow America's Most Infamous Crimes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find a link to the show in this episode's description. Quick Pause Something useful for you. Love fishing. TikTok isn't just for young people. It's full of real tips. Better knots, better baits, better catches. Quick videos from people who actually fish. Download TikTok now. Some crimes are so shocking, they don't just make headlines, they forever change our society. Katie I'm Katie Ring, host of America's Most Infamous Crimes. Each week I take on one of the most notorious criminal cases, whether it's unfolding now or etched into American history. Serial killers who terrorize cities, unsolved mysteries that kept detectives up at night, and investigations that change the way we think about justice. Each case unfolds across multiple episodes released every Tuesday through Thursday, from the first sign that something was wrong to the moment the truth came out or didn't. Listen to and follow America's Most Infamous Crimes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.