The Real Reason You Have No Energy - and How to Fix It (Tonight) | Clutterbug Podcast #309

Summary

Clutterbug Podcast #309

The Real Reason You Have No Energy – and How to Fix It (Tonight)

Date: January 19, 2026
Host: Cas (Clutterbug)
Guest: Dr. Michael Breus (“The Sleep Doctor”)

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the true causes of chronic low energy — poor sleep quality — and presents actionable, science-backed solutions to fix your sleep starting tonight. Host Cas is joined by renowned clinical psychologist and sleep medicine expert Dr. Michael Breus, who breaks down the biology of sleep, the myth of “powering through,” and explains how knowing your “chronotype” (biological sleep style) can completely change your life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Your Bedroom as a Restful Oasis

• Cas encourages listeners to actively declutter their bedrooms during the episode, underscoring that the physical environment plays a crucial role in sleep hygiene.
• “When you're looking around your room and you're seeing work, your brain is constantly signaling to you you have to do more, which is raising your heart rate, which is making it harder for you to sleep.” (A, [01:13])
• Actionable tips: declutter surfaces, put away clothes, open blinds in the morning for light, and make your bed.

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2. Dr. Michael Breus – The Sleep Doctor

• Dr. Breus introduces himself as one of only 168 people board certified in sleep medicine without a medical degree, specializing in insomnia and all other sleep disorders.
• His mission: educating the public that being exhausted is not inevitable, no matter life’s circumstances.
• “Everything you do, you do better with a good night’s sleep. That’s just how it works.” (B, [02:52])

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3. Understanding Chronotypes: Discover Your Sleep Animal

• Dr. Breus’s research reveals four main chronotypes, replacing the old “early bird/night owl” binary.
  • Lion: Early risers, natural operators/COOs; about 15-20% of people. Usually up and productive at dawn ([12:29]).
  • Bear: In the middle; world’s 9-5 schedule fits them; majority population ([12:55]).
  • Wolf: True night owls, creative types, thrive in late hours; also about 15-20% ([13:34]).
  • Dolphin: The anxious, often insomniac type. Sometimes by genetics, sometimes by life stage (stress, ADHD, perimenopause), about 10% ([13:57]).
• Dr. Breus emphasizes your chronotype is biological, not a matter of willpower:
  “This is your biology. ... Work with your biology, not against your biology. I would argue that 80% of the people who are trying to wake up at 5am, they're working against their biology.” (B, [09:55])

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4. Chronotypes & Daily Living

• Tailoring your sleep/wake cycles, productivity rhythms, even when to drink coffee or exercise, according to chronotype leads to better results.
  • Cas candidly shares she’s always failed at “The 5am Club.”
    • “I felt a lot of shame around my natural energy levels. … You’ve actually said this is, like, DNA.” (A, [09:22])
  • Dr. Breus: “If you try to wake me up at 5am, I might try to hurt you.” (B, [08:24])

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5. Women, Stress & Changing Chronotypes

• Life stages (menopause, perimenopause, stress, ADHD) can temporarily shift chronotypes, particularly creating more “dolphins.”
• Cas: “I'm really struggling with insomnia now.”
  Dr. Breus explains hormone dysregulation's direct impact on sleep ([11:05]).

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6. The Heart Rate & Falling Back Asleep Problem

• Dr. Breus pinpoints one physiological sleep “leverage point”:
  • Need heart rate below 60 bpm to enter (or re-enter) sleep ([15:14]).
• Don’t get up to pee unless you really must — moving spikes your heart rate.
• Don’t look at the clock at 3 a.m. — the guilt/stress cycle is counterproductive:
  • “In the history of time, no one has ever forced themselves to sleep.” (B, [19:29])

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7. Actionable Insomnia Strategies

• 4-7-8 Breathing (Dr. Andrew Weil method):
  • Inhale 4 sec, hold 7 sec, exhale 8 sec. This calms and lowers heart rate ([19:29]).
  • Cas: “You can't count and think about stressful things at the same time.”
• If still awake, practice “Non-Sleep Deep Rest” (Yoga Nidra). Simply lying calmly with eyes closed is rejuvenating.
• Key: Stay positive. The more you stress about being awake, the higher your heart rate and the harder it is to fall back asleep.
  • “I guess I just need to trust my body. I think my body is up for a reason…” (B, [24:05])

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8. Debunking Sleep Debt Myths, Napping Wisely, and The Power of Consistency

• Sleep debt is real — and can accumulate.
• Best way to recover is a short nap (≤25 minutes) or a full 90-minute sleep cycle, before 2 p.m. ([27:58]).
  • Napping too late or too long interferes with nighttime sleep.
• Sleeping in on weekends actually backfires, disrupting circadian rhythms:
  • “Whatever your routine is, as long as it's not harmful ... just layer in the consistency.” (B, [28:54])
  • Absolute #1 tip: “Wake at the same time seven days a week.” (B, [31:20])

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9. Cas’s Real-Life Struggle: Night Owl, Video Games & Family Schedules

• Cas admits to “being a teenager” on weekends: late nights, late mornings, then paying for it with exhaustion during the week.
• Dr. Breus issues a challenge: 2 weeks of consistent wake times, including weekends — predicts a tangible boost in all areas, even video game performance ([33:10]).
  • “Literally, any activity that you can think of ... you’ll do it better if you sleep well.” (B, [33:53])

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10. Supplements, Melatonin and Why They're (Usually) Not The Answer

• Always start with bloodwork to reveal deficiencies (magnesium, vitamin D3, etc.).
• Most people have no dietary need for ashwagandha, but are commonly low in D3 and magnesium (glycinate).
  • Dr. Breus recommends brands: Upgraded Formulas Magnesium, Nordic Naturals vitamin D3 with omegas ([36:55]).
• Melatonin:
  • “Melatonin is a hormone. It is not an herb, it is not a root, it is not a mineral.”
  • Typical American doses (5-15mg!) are 10x what’s physiologically useful: “The appropriate dose ... is somewhere between a half and one and a half milligrams.” (B, [40:09])
  • Melatonin taken in excess has contraceptive effects and major drug interactions (birth control, antidepressants, diabetes & blood pressure meds).
  • Never use with children except kids on the autism spectrum ([41:55]).
  • Good for: jet lag, shift work, age-related decline ([40:48]).
• “Most people don’t need a pill to sleep. ... When you were a kid, did your parents give you pills to sleep? No they didn’t.” (B, [44:21])

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11. Over-the-counter & Prescription Sleep Meds: Use with Caution

• OTC “PM” medications contain diphenhydramine (Benadryl), which has documented links to dementia with chronic use ([45:14]).
• “If you’re using it for more than two weeks — bad. Officially bad. Stop, and you need to talk with your doctor.” (B, [47:37])
• Prescription sedatives (Ambien, Lunesta, benzodiazepines, etc.): only for those with specific medical needs. Never self-dose or borrow.
• Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for insomnia shown to be more effective and safer than any drug — reframes beliefs about sleep and teaches lasting skills.
  • “So many people ... say, ‘If I don’t get eight hours, my world is going to fall apart’ ... [CBT] looks at your biology. Like, you look perfectly healthy. I think you’re okay.” (B, [49:19])

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12. Lightning Round: Listener Q&A and Decluttering Tips

• Magnesium can sometimes have immediate sleep results if deficiency is severe, but usually takes a couple of weeks to build up ([51:48]).
• Cas: “Thank you. I’m feeling excited. Except for the part where you told me that I need to wake up the same time every day, even on the weekends ... real bummer, Dr. Bruce.” (A, [53:13])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “5am Club”:
  “Only about 15 to 20% of the entire population worldwide can actually achieve getting up at 5am on the regular ... If you try to wake me up at 5am, I might try to hurt you.” (B, [08:24])
• On Melatonin:
  “Melatonin is a hormone ... there’s a reason why you can’t go to the local CVS and buy testosterone and estrogen ... Yet for some crazy reason, melatonin snuck underneath the door.” (B, [38:38])
• On Consistency:
  “The big, big, big one, the one that really gives you the biggest bang for your buck, is waking up at the same time seven days a week.” (B, [31:20])
• On Cognitive Behavioral Therapy:
  “It works better than any medication on the market, and it works longer because it’s a skill that you learn.” (B, [49:36])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [00:00] Bedroom decluttering tips and preamble
• [02:09] Dr. Breus introduction and his sleep medicine journey
• [04:43] Chronotype overview and why biology trumps willpower
• [08:14] The “5am Club” myth debunked
• [12:20] Detailed explanation of Lions, Bears, Wolves, Dolphins
• [15:14] Heart rate, insomnia, and the power of deep breathing
• [19:25] Step-by-step: what to do when you wake at 3 a.m.
• [25:47] The realities of sleep debt, napping, and the value of consistency
• [34:50] Sleep supplements and dangers of unregulated melatonin
• [45:14] OTC/prescription meds for sleep: pros, cons, and cognitive therapy
• [51:48] Lightning round: Magnesium, rapid effects, and placebo
• [55:34] Clutterbug’s organizing styles and Cas/Dr. Breus’s chronotype theory
• [56:50] How to take the Chronoquiz
• [58:04] Listener voicemails and command center tip
• [62:15] Decluttering tip: “Do Not Buy” list for chronic clutter-inducers
• [63:25] Closing encouragement from Cas

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How to Discover Your Chronotype

• Dr. Breus’s free quiz: www.chronoquiz.com ([56:50])

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Final Takeaways

• Declutter your resting space and rid your mind and environment of stressors.
• Sync your routine to your natural biology — it’s freeing, not shameful!
• Consistency in wake time is the #1 habit for better sleep and all-day energy.
• Supplements are rarely silver bullets. Test for deficiencies before taking anything, and melatonin should be used with care, if at all.
• If sleep struggles persist, cognitive behavioral therapy is a proven, lasting solution.
• Sleep is the foundational pillar for mental, physical, and emotional health. As Dr. Breus says:
  "Everything you do, you do better with a good night's sleep."

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For more from Dr. Breus, check out his books and resources at chronoquiz.com. For more practical organizing and decluttering advice, keep listening to Clutterbug!

Transcript

[A]

You are in for a treat today. This honestly is probably the most educational podcast and the most, I don't know, potentially life changing podcast I've ever done. We are interviewing the incredible Dr. Michael Bruce. He is known as the sleep doctor. He has multiple books, he has been involved in hundreds of studies and what he came up with is so incredibly fascinating. It's going to blow your mind it and hopefully help you actually get a good night's sleep, which is something I definitely struggle with. But just like always, before we jump in and get started, I really want you to think about your bedroom. It's the first thing you see when you wake up and it is the last thing you see before you go to bed. So while you listen to this insanely life transformational podcast, take action in your bedroom. Declutter the piles on top of your dresser. Put away the clothes that are like on the chair or in the baskets everywhere or open your blinds. Something that's really important to sleep that I found is light you. If you're like having the room darkening blinds in the morning, it's so hard to drag your butt up. Lighten, brighten, Declutter your bedroom right now. Make your freaking bed. Vacuum it. Get the dust bunnies. For this entire episode, I want you to work your butt off so that tonight we're. When you are practicing some of the things you've learned from Dr. Bruce, you're going to get the best night sleep of your life. One of the most important things that you can do is make sure that you eliminate all the to dos. So the stack of paper, any like project you have to finish. When you're looking around your room and you're seeing work, your brain is constantly signaling to you you have to do more, which is raising your heart rate, which is making it harder for you to sleep. And if you wake up in the middle of the night, as we all do sometimes, and you glance over and see that nagging pile, it's going to be even harder to fall back to sleep. Your bedroom has to be a restful oasis and that is your goal today. And now let's hear from Dr. Bruce. Hello and welcome.

[B]

Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[A]

I'm really excited because you are like an expert expert. I was doing some deep dive research into you and I'm like, this is going to solve all my problems.

[B]

Oh boy, that is quite an expectation. I'm not so sure I can meet that.

[A]

No pressure or anything. But what I've realized in my old age is Just how important sleep really is. And most of my life it's kind of been like oh what a bummer. I don't want to go to sleep and I resist it. And now I've realized it affects everything from my mental health to my productivity. I mean everything is linked back to good sleep and good sleep is something I don't have. So. Welcome to Dr. Bruce.

[B]

Well you, you kind of stole my thunder because I was going to say everything you do, you do better with a good night's sleep. That's just how it works.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm, I have so many questions to ask you but I would love for you first to let my listeners know definitely a little bit about you and how you became the sleep doctor.

[B]

Sure. So hi everyone, My name is Dr. Michael Bruce. I have a PhD in clinical psychology. So I'm a clinical psychologist and I am one of 168 people in the world who took the medical boards without going to medical school and passed. So I did that in sleep and sleep medicine in particular because my goal is I specialize in insomnia while I treat all sleep disorders. And I actually do work with dreams as well. I thought that the psychological component of it was too large to ignore and I figured eh, medical school I can just bypass that and take their test and see what happens. And so I became boarded in sleep medicine 26 years ago. I've been an actively practicing sleep specialist for that period of time. And the way I became the sleep doctor is I bought the website back in 2008 and I just started talking with people and my goal was just to educate and still is. You know, all I want to do is get people more educated about sleep because so many people think that's just the way it is. I'm, I'm old, I got three kids, my job is stressful, I've got three jobs. You know, I'm a shift worker. Of course I'm tired. This is an exhausting life. I don't think that's actually true. I think that with a little hand holding and a few expert tips along the way, I think most people actually can sleep well and get the benefits from sleep that they deserve.

[A]

I love this. I took your quiz, your Chronotype quiz and I have to say I'm, I'm a big person. Like put me in a category and diagnose my personality. So I love that. But listen, you didn't just make this up. It was also you read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of studies. So I want to tell you I was surprised by my chronotype. But please let my listeners know what your chronotype is.

[B]

And your personal chronotype.

[A]

No, like the whole thing. And also, yes, your personal chronotype too.

[B]

You might not have heard of the word chronotype before, but you've definitely heard of the concept. If anybody out there or any of your friends and family have ever been called an early bird or a night owl, meaning somebody who naturally likes to wake up early or who naturally likes to stay up late. So I started investigating this and what I discovered was, is there's not two. I actually discovered a fourth chronotype. So we used to always think, hey, early birds, night owls, there's gotta be people in the middle. That's probably it, right? And unfortunately it's not it. It turns out that anxiety plays a huge role. And for a lot of people who have a hard time shutting down their brain, who have a hard time turning off what I call monkey mind, they actually end up in a different category called a dolphin. And so for me, what I wanted to do was I wanted everybody to figure out which category they were in. Because we have different, for example, bedtimes per category. Early birds are going to go to bed at a different time than night owls. We have different wake up times for people. Right? Early birds are going to get up earlier than night owls. People in the middle have a tendency to be in the middle. But then we've got this anxious group of people, these dolphins, and they have a tendency to do things differently as well. Here's the thing, Cass, that was so interesting is once I started delving into this, and this was in my third book called the Power of when, meaning when do you do something? I discovered a whole host of things outside of sleep. I can actually teach people the best time of day to have sex, eat a cheeseburger, ask their boss for a raise, take a nap. I mean, it's unbelievable. And here's why is because, for example, let's say that you're an early bird. Well, you wake up at, let's say, 5, 45, 6 o' clock in the morning and all of your hormones start off and they go in a very predictable pattern. So we know exactly when certain hormones are going to rise and others are going to fall. So my theory was pretty simple. Let's just change our schedules around. I don't want to change our hormones. Our hormones are a natural occurring thing. We want to keep those kind of where they are. Mother Nature does a great job of managing those, usually Right. But if I change my activity levels so that my activities match where my hormonal rise is. All of a sudden, I do those things better. Right? So let's say you're an exerciser and you're interested in getting your personal best and you're a runner. Well, it turns out that depending upon your chronotype, your personal best may happen differently. If. If you're an early bird, like a lion, you might want to do it earlier in the day. But if you're a night owl, like me, by the way, that's me, I'm a night owl, you might want to work out later in the day. So it's variable. But once you slot into your swim lane, as I like to call it, man, oh man, things get a lot easier and you start to learn all the different habits that you have. Like, when should I have my cup of coffee? How should I drink alcohol? All of this can actually be determined based on your chronotype.

[A]

I love this. I. I mean, I have known for a really long time that I am not a morning person. I read the 5am Club. Okay. That you know that because I'm really into self help and I was like, what the dang deuce? I tried.

[B]

All right, so let's talk about that 5am Club.

[A]

I tried.

[B]

Well, and what happened? You failed. Right?

[A]

I failed miserably and I was less productive.

[B]

Yes. So let's talk about this for a second because I just actually did an article. We had an. I think I was in the Wall Street Journal fairly recently talking about this. But this idea of the 5:00am Club, it's terrible. It's a terrible, terrible idea. You know why? Because only about 15 to 20% of the entire population worldwide can actually achieve getting up at 5am on the regular. Because they're early birds. Because that's the percentage of people that are. What about all us night owls? Like, are you kidding me? Like, there's no universe I'm getting. If you try to wake me up at 5am, I might try to hurt you. Okay? So it's like, come on, this is not the place to be. So I think that whole. I, I think the idea of the 5am club is get up before work to get some things done that you feel be helpful to you. Whether that's meditation, exercise, sitting out in the sunshine, taking your supplements, spending time with your dog, whatever it happens to be. I think all of those things are important. I just want you to follow them based on your chronotype.

[A]

And what I really love. I want. I'll talk about my chronotype in one second. But what I love is because I felt a lot of shame around my natural energy levels. I thought I could, like, if I just tried harder, be a morning person. You've actually said that this is, like, DNA. So this is, like, built into your DNA based on your melatonin levels and your, like, natural hormone and your natural circadian rhythm, which is hereditary. This made me feel so much better because.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

It's not a moral failing that I'm not a morning person. It's biological.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And that was the point of the book, is for people, not this is genetic. Like, you don't get a chance to choose. Like, as a matter of fact, if you went to 23andMe or ancestry.com they have a report that. That shows you exactly what you are. Like this. I didn't make any. Like, it's not like Michael went around and made something cool up. Right? It's like, this is real science. This is real biology. And yes, Cass, you are not at fault. This is your biology. So the goal here is work with your biology, not against your biology. I would argue that 80% of the people who are trying to wake up at 5am, they're working against their biology. In all likelihood, yes.

[A]

So good. Okay, let's talk about my chronotype for a second, because I will say I was kind of shocked. I've always known that I'm a night owl. I have the most energy in the evening. I don't. Not a morning person. I feel very, like, productive late in the evening. So I thought for sure I was like, I'm going to be a wolf all day long.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I took the quiz and it came back dolphin.

[B]

Yep, that was my prediction.

[A]

Is it because I'm stressed?

[B]

Before you told me, I would have told you that I predict.

[A]

I don't. I don't feel stressed. But definitely, as I'm getting older and I'm perimenopausal, I'm really struggling with insomnia now.

[B]

So let's talk about this. So let. So there are three chronotypes, and there's a new. A fourth one called the dolphin. The dolphin is my problem child oftentimes. But I want to be clear. Dolphins sometimes happen by circumstance. What do I mean by that? You hit the nail on the head when you said the word perimenopause. Okay? Because what happens during menopause and perimenopause, your hormones go cuckoo. Right? That's exactly what we're talking about here. Is this hormonal displacement or this hormonal schedule that change so often. And when you're going through the middle of menopause, it's not like it's regular. It's not like one day, one day you wake up and you feel fine. The next day you have a hot flash in the middle of, you know, whatever, right? And it's like coming out of nowhere. So this is that dysregulation or that irregularity that's by, that comes by dolphins naturally. So here's the deal is in my guess, there are some people who are genetic dolphins, but there are some people who are dolphins again by circumstance. So if you're going through menopause, you might be a dolphin, but really underneath it all, you could be a wolf. Okay, so that's my guess with you. But when we were first interacting, you have an energy and you have all of that kind of going, going, going, kind of thing going on. And I think that's what it's probably picking up on.

[A]

Yes, you said something. Okay, first let's explain the four because if someone's like dolphin, what the heck are you speaking about? Let me, let me break it down, break it down.

[B]

Okay, so early birds are now called lions because hey, who wouldn't want to be the king or queen of the jungle, right? I mean, let's be fair. And you know, lions have their first kill before dawn. So they actually, in the real animal kingdom are early risers. But these are people who tend to be my COO of a company. Notice I didn't say CEO, I said coo. So these are the, these are the operators, these are the people who, for example, you know, you have a lion in your life. You, if you get an email at 6 o' clock in the morning, I can assure you you have lions in your life. If you get emails at six. Now if you're writing the emails at six o' clock in the morning, well, you've probably self diagnosed yourself as a lion more than likely because who else is writing emails at 6 o' clock in the damn morning? In the middle are bears. Bears are the best. Honestly, I wish I was a bear. The entire world works off of a bear schedule. And so 9 to 5 is perfect, perfect for a bear. They go to bed around 10:30, they wake up around 7:30, they're in great shape. You know, they're doing everything that they need to do and the world seems to work really well for them. Then are the night owls. That's me, I've been a night owl for almost My whole life. And we do have a tendency to be the creatives, the CEOs of the world. We're the artists, the actors, the writers, kind of the most creative people. Because like if you know a creative. Right. When do they get inspired? Not two o' clock in the afternoon. It's usually 2:00am and they're doing something crazy and like a night owl would. So we know that that is that type of person and that makes up about 15 to 20% of the population. So the final 10% of the population is you Cas. And these are dolphins. These are people who have some level of anxiety or stress in their life that is having an effect across the board and affecting their sleep as well. Again, sometimes this can be temporary or sometimes you can just be born this way.

[A]

Yeah, I'm definitely a hyper person. So I have ADHD and for a.

[B]

Long time double dolphin. Because. Because dolphins, normally my dolphins who've got ADD and adhd, but now you've got ADHD and perimenopause at the same time. Girl, you're in trouble.

[A]

I'm in trouble because also the world is built for bears. Because, you know, I run a business, I have employees, we work nine to five. I have to be, I have to, you know, put myself in a box that obviously I'm not made for. And it means a lot of the time I am very exhausted and when I try to go to sleep at night, I also have three kids, they have to get up in the morning. Like I have to be a human, you know? Yeah, I, I stress a lot about sleep when I'm staring at the clock and it's 3:00am and I'm like, I gotta get up in five hours. That doesn't help. And I watched an interview and you said something so insanely helpful.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

And what you said. So I, I'm showing. If you're listening to this, I'm wearing a Paul socks on my finger. A pink one, but a pink one. But if you watch this, I'm a bit of a nerd of that. And what you said is to, to fall asleep, your heart rate should be 60 or below or below. And you can see here I am just sitting, chatting with you and it's 104. I usually run between 90 to 120. Just naturally, I've never seen 60. Okay, 60 is never seen it. So I. My resting heart rate is always extremely high.

[B]

Another reason you're a dolphin, by the way.

[A]

And you said shallow breathing can contribute to this and deep breathing can actually because Your body's getting more oxygen, your heart has to work less hard, which can lower. So I thought that was so helpful because I'm over here taking supplements and trying different sleeping pills and all these things.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. Let's just work on you second here, okay? So I'm sure there are listeners out there who have, who can identify with some of the struggles that you're having, right? If I had to guess, Cas, and you correct me if I'm wrong, you probably don't have a hard time falling asleep because you're probably so damn exhausted from your day, right? And then somewhere between 1 and 3 o' clock in the morning, you're up, right? And then the monkey mind kicks into gear, right? This is my wife's favorite term. And, and all of a sudden you're thinking about things and you're like, why am I thinking about this right now? Like, who cares what I said to the kids teacher? And who cares if I forgot something at the grocery store? And who cares? You know, like all of this stuff starts to come into your head. So number one, it's also your biology. So I know you get some real comfort in biology. So let's talk for a second about that. So here's what's interesting is as you're about to fall asleep, let's say it's around 10, 10:30 at night, your core body temperature rises, rises, rises to about a peak right around 10:30, then it drops. That drop is a signal to your brain to release melatonin. Okay? Remember, melatonin is kind of that key that starts the engine for sleep. It's not the only thing you need. But if you ain't got no melatonin, you ain't sleeping. Okay? So core body temperature drops, but it continues to drop. And your body gets cooler and cooler. By the way, Cas, this is the reason why we tell people we want them to sleep in a cool environment so that it helps your body get cooler and cooler. Because if you're in a hot place or if you exercise right before bed, your core body temperature is way high and you can't fall asleep. So anyway, core body temperature. Cooling, cooling, cooling, cooling, cooling. At some point, if your body doesn't heat up, you're going to go hypothermic and die. Guess what time that is?

[A]

Is it like three? When I always. Between one and three?

[B]

Somewhere between one and three o' clock in the morning, every human cast on Earth, on earth wakes up. Now here's the difference. Most people burp Roll over and go straight back to bed, okay? However, you do not. You have an ex. You have this extra thing going on where if you, if you went to the bathroom, you get back down to the bed and now it's game on, right? So let's talk about that situation. Because, by the way, this is the number one question I've ever been asked historically for 26 years. I have a YouTube video on this, by the way, for folks out there. So if you don't catch it all, rewind and listen to it again. And if you still don't catch it all, head over to YouTube and you can definitely check it out. So a couple things that I would want you to do. Number one, don't go pee. Yes, you heard it here, folks. Don't go pee. Now let me explain why. So most people don't actually have to go to the bathroom when they wake up in the middle of the night. Here's what they do. They say, well, I'm up, I might as well go pee, right? Here's why that's a terrible idea. In order to enter into a state of unconsciousness which you correctly identified, you need a heart rate of about 60 or below. What do you think happens to your heart rate when you go from a lying position to a seated position, standing position. That's right, your heart rate, Jack, straight up. So if you don't actually have to go to the bathroom, don't go pee. I want to be super duper clear. Please go to the bathroom if you need to pee. All right, like, let's, let's not be silly here.

[A]

But don't wear a diaper. Don't be like, I'm going to. I guess I'm adult diaper.

[B]

Somebody asked me that. I swear to you. Somebody said, well, what if I wore Depends? And I'm like, dude, get out of bed or stop. An hour and a half. Like, this isn't hard, right? So number one, if you don't really have to go, please don't go to the bathroom. Number two, don't look at the clock. Now this is tough, okay? And you already admitted to me that you look at the clock, so I know that you do this. You. Here's what happens. The second you look at the clock, you instantly do the mental math. And now you're pissed off, right? You're like, it's three o' clock in the morning, I've got to get up at six. Sleep, sleep, sleep. And you try to force your brain to sleep. Cas, in the history of time no one, no one has ever forced themselves to sleep. Why? Because your heart rate's going up when you're trying to force something not going down. So the goal here is to do everything you can to lower that heart rate. Don't get out of bed to pee unless you really have to. Don't look at the clock because it's just going to be upsetting. Okay, we've gotten those out of the way. Dr. Bruce. Now what do we do? I'm still lying here. Nothing's going on. My favorite technique is called 4, 7, 8 breathing. So I want to be clear. This is not something that I developed. Dr. Andrew Wilde, Harvard trained natural doctor, came up with this, believe it or not, for the Navy seals to help them lower their heart rate in stressful situations. But what it is, is you slowly breathe in for a count of four, you hold for a count of seven, and you push out for a count of eight. Now, I want to be clear. This is very gentle. It's not a. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, please don't do that. It's a very slow. And here's the, here's the trick of all tricks to. This is in your mind's eye because your eyes will be closed while you're doing this. I want you to see the number four, then the number three, then the number two, then the number one. Okay? In while doing this, because you can't count and think about stressful things at the same time, it is biologically impossible. And if you're following the guidance, your heart rate is dumping within 15 cycles. You're at 60 almost every single time. Now, there's two problems with this technique. Number one, it's kind of hard to hold your breath for seven seconds, and it's really hard to push for eight. So what I do is I started slower, so I started with 4, 5, 6 breathing, right? So I breathe in for a count of four, hold for a count of five, push for a count of six. I tried that for a week until I got my lungs felt, you know, comfortable doing it. Then I went to 4, 6, 7, breathing, and then eventually I made it to 4, 7, 8. So that's number one is you don't have to start out at the 7, 8. You can go down you if it's uncomfortable and we don't. Again, this is not supposed to be stressful. This is not supposed to raise your heart rate. So this should be very easy, in and out, getting used to it. The second thing is I lose count, right? So you need about 15 cycles. I can never figure out which cycle I'm on. So here's what I do is I take my hands because I do this technique myself. I take my hands and I make two small fists like this, and I put them down by my side. And when I get through 1, 4, 7, 8, I stick out a finger. Then the second 4, 7, 8, I Stick out a finger. By the time I hit 10 and I start curling them back, before I know it, I'm asleep. So this works really, really well. Okay, but let's say that you haven't looked at the clock, you haven't gotten up to pee. You've done 15 to 20 cycles of 4, 7, 8 breathing. Dr. Bruce. But doggone it, I'm still up. What is going. What should I do? So two other things that you want to think about. Number one is something called non sleep deep rest. All right? So lying in bed in the dark, in the quiet is actually rejuvenative. I mean, it's not as good as sleep. I want to be super clear about that. But if you did that for an hour, it's worth about 20 minutes of sleep, right? And so what we called, we call it non sleep deep breaths. But they've been using this technique for over a thousand years called yoga nidra, which is just lying in the corpse pose and just being chill and relaxing. Again, this is rejuvenative view. So if you can, if you can lie there and not get stressed, because that is the key factor, lie there and relax, okay? And realize that you're doing something good for your body. The third thing, and I think this is probably the most important, stay positive. Okay? Here's the bottom line. This has happened to you about a million times before, right? And it's not like your head popped off. It's not like the world came to an end result, right? But if you wake up at 3 o' clock in the morning, your brain wonders, why on earth are you waking up at 3 o' clock in the morning? And so it's always going to be thinking negatively when you're waking up at that time. So give your brain a break and stay positive. Just turn to, here's what I say to myself. If I've tried all these techniques and I still can't fall asleep, which by the way, has happened even to the sleep doctors. So we're all, we're all in the same boat here is. Then I just turn to myself and I say, well, I guess I just need to trust my body. I think my body is up for A reason. I don't know exactly what that reason is, but as long as I don't get stressed out, I can lie here and relax. Maybe I'll practice a little meditation. Maybe I'll say a prayer or two. If I do find myself getting stressed, I'll get up, I'll read a book, and I have a special area in my house already set up. Right. And by the way, this is a trick that I recommend for people. If you wake up at 3 o' clock in the morning and you have to go looking for a book and a place to read and a light and all. It's too much. It's too much. Have it sitting by, you know, in another room, right? Where there's a comfy chair and a table lamp and whatever book you're reading, magazine, newspaper, I don't care. Something boring, please. Right? And just relax. Right? But anything that you're doing while in bed, that's jacking your heart rate is just not going to be helpful.

[A]

That's so. Actually incredibly helpful. And I did have a doctor that told me because I was really struggling with insomnia and I was kind of like panicking. He's like just laying there and resting in is still doing good. And I was like, oh, okay. So it was helpful because I'm like, I'm gonna die because I've gone so many days without sleep.

[B]

You're not gonna die.

[A]

Something bad's gonna happen.

[B]

I promise you. While bad things can happen over long stretches of time, nothing bad is gonna happen to you immediately. I think you're probably gonna be okay.

[A]

I think I'm gonna be okay. Can we, can we talk about sleep debt? So there are nights where. Or if I'm traveling.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Or I'm now a volunteer firefighter. Sometimes I'll get a call in the middle of the night.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

It is very cool, but also not great for someone who doesn't sleep.

[B]

A lot for somebody who doesn't sleep, by the way.

[A]

So my pager will go off.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

I'm like, oh.

[A]

And I'm rushing out the door and I'm like hyped up and I'm listening to like the powerful music on the way to get myself pumped, go into the fire. And then I come home and I gotta start work at 9am and I literally not slept at all. So there's a few days sometimes. Well, I will have sleep debt.

[B]

Yes, you will.

[A]

Is this a thing? And can a nap fix it?

[B]

Yes and yes. So the good news is, is this is A thing. Although I'm going to be honest with you, every couple of years the American Academy of Sleep Medicine says, no, there's no such thing as sleep debt. And then recently it said, yeah, there is such a thing as sleep debt. So I'm not convinced that we really know. But here's what I can tell you is every human body, every person, has an amount of sleep that they require. And that amount can vary based on a whole host of things. It can vary based on your age, it can vary based on your gender. Right. You're going through perimenopause. Chances of me going through perimenopause, pretty slim, right? You know, it can be things like your stress level, how many children you have, what kind of job you have, are you the boss? Are you an employee? Like the list of things that can change the way you sleep is, is pretty dramatic. However, if you know what you need personally and you get it, you're probably just fine. It's when you what you know you need and you don't get it, that difference is the debt. So now the next question is, okay, well, can I make up for my debt? Maybe sleep in on the weekends or take a nap in the afternoon? So believe it or not, it's better to take a nap than it is to sleep in on the weekends. Let me explain. So, and it depends on what time you take the nap and, and also how long you nap for. So I recommend naps 25 minutes or less. You don't want to nap more than that. Here's why you ever woke up. Nothing.

[A]

I know that's nothing.

[B]

Dr. Bruce, I know you ever wake up from a nap and feel worse, not better? Yeah, that's why. So what happens is, is when you go past 25 minutes, you get into deep sleep, which is what your body is aching for because you haven't slept all night long. However, it's hell to get out of deep sleep. Your body doesn't want to, it just wants to sit there and sleep for an hour, hour and a half. So it's a 25 minute nap or less. Or it's a full sleep cycle nap, which is about an hour and a half, about 90 minutes. Now if you do this too late in the day, you are screwed. Why? Because you don't have enough sleep drive to make you feel sleepy at night. So napping is a good idea, but strategically you want to place it earlier in the day if you can. You never want to nap past 2pm if at all possible. Okay. That still allows your body to build up enough sleep debt to help you fall asleep and get rid of some of what you had before then. The reason that you don't want to sleep in on the weekends is because when you sleep in on the weekends, you actually change your circadian rhythm. And that becomes highly problematic because Monday then sucks because your brain thinks, oh my gosh, I'm going to go to bed late and sleep. You know, all these different things. And so I think the theme cast that we're getting to is consistency. Okay? It's really about consistency. Whatever your routine is, as long as it's not harmful to you or disturbs your bed partner, I don't think I care. As an example, if we look in my house, we have a big screen tv. It's on all night long. In our bedroom. Yes. We have two French bulldogs in our bed all night. Okay? I'm the sleep doctor, for God's sakes. Okay? How. How can I do this? Because sleep is flexible, okay? What people need to understand is there's not some hard and fast rule that everybody has to follow a certain way to sleep. We all sleep differently and different things affect us in different ways. As an example, if I take the dogs out of the bedroom, my wife won't sleep, period, Full stop. Like, it just won't happen. She's been sleeping with dogs in her bed since she was 12. So it's like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's just not something that's going to. All that's going to do is make her more stressed and make her sleep even less. Right? And so you need to think through what, what works for you, what works for your bed partner. And by the way, and this is going to be a little controversial, so people are okay with it. The strength of your relationship has nothing to do with where you sleep. Let me be clear. If you need to sleep in the guest room because your bed partner's snoring or you need more space or you need something different than them, that is okay with the sleep doctor, okay? It has nothing to do with how strong your relationship, marriage, partnership, whatever you want to, whatever you're in, it has nothing to do with it. In fact, I would argue it'll be stronger because you're going to get good night's sleep and then you're going to actually want to be with your partner when you're with your partner versus wanting to take a nap. So I think people need to stop and boxing themselves into all of these rules and figure out what works for them. And Then just layer in the consistency. The big thing I would say though, if I had to give everybody out there a few tips of exactly what I think they should do, the big, big, big one, the one that really gives you the biggest bang for your buck, is waking up at the same time seven days a week so you don't sleep in on the weekends. I know, I know, it's bummer. I get it.

[A]

That's a bummer.

[B]

It keeps your circadian rhythm going. And if you know that you're going to get up at the same time you did on Tuesday, on Saturday morning, you're not going to stay out that late on Friday night because you know you're going to be doing, I get it, maybe it's not as much fun, but if you want health and you want to be able to function and you want to do all of these great things with three kids and a podcast and a business and all of these awesome things, you've got to take care of this unit, right? So I was born in 1968, so I like to think of myself as a 1968 Mustang. I'm not sure I'm a Mustang, but I just like to think of it that way. And so you're born like I've only got four tires, I've only got a certain amount of radiator fluid, you know what I'm saying? And that's how I think about it, is how am I taking care of this 57 year old unit, right. Vehicle, if you will. And how is that going to be able to affect me, to do the things I really want to do, to be able to show up for my kids, to be able to be there for my wife. All of those things are highly dependent on whether or not I'm healthy. And, and I would argue the cornerstone of health is sleep.

[A]

I know what you're saying. And I, and I, and I know this because like I'm a toddler and then on the weekend, like come Friday, I try to stay up as late as I possibly can because I'm like, freedom. I don't have to get up. And then I sleep till literally like two in the afternoon on Saturday. And then I stay up till four in the morning and then I day I am a teenager, listen, I really like to play video games in my bed extremely late at night. And my husband is such a wolf too. We're both such night owls that then Monday it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we're fighting our exhaustion, we finally get back into a rhythm. Then Friday comes And we're like, woo. And we play this game every single week.

[B]

Like, so I'm gonna challenge you, Cass, right here in front of everyone, if you could. Let's see what would happen if you could have consistency across two weeks, including the weekends. My guess is, although it will hurt, like, it will be a little bit on the painful side, if you can get your bed partner to follow the same rules with you, I think you'll probably get a higher score on your video games. I'm not joking. There's actually data on this.

[D]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That could be why I suck. Dr. Bruce, I.

[B]

Well, I don't know if you played this. This is an older game. But I remember not that long ago there was a study looking at sleep and playing Guitar Hero, if you're familiar with that game. And by the way, that's a hard game to play.

[A]

It is so hard.

[B]

Like, there's nothing easy about that. I mean, you're doing it. Yeah, yeah. You're all over the place. But there was data to show that if you sleep well, you actually score higher. It's. It's kind of remarkable. Literally, any activity that you can think of that you have for fun, you. You'll do it better if you sleep well.

[A]

Oh, this is good. I did hear that sleep deprivation is kind of like being intoxicated. Not the fun part of being intoxicated, but like the diminished mental capacity. Like, you're dumb. You're dumber, which is so fascinating. Okay. I want to ask you about supplements, because when I go to my doctor and I'm like, I can't sleep, it's always like, here, take some pills. Yeah. With adhd, anytime I take anything, and I've learned this correlation that has melatonin in it. I have the worst restless leg syndrome ever. So what I found was doing research that melatonin actually drops your dopamine level a little bit.

[B]

A little bit.

[A]

So because I'm already dopamine deficient, that the extra melatonin drops it to a level which causes restless leg. Because restless leg is caused by low dopamine, which we're like, so fat. But it makes sense in my. You know, because.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I think. I think your science sounds pretty good right now. Look at me, Dr. Bruce, science, junior sleep doctor. I'm going to give you, like, a certificate after this. You're going to be like, junior sleep doctor for sure. So let's talk about supplementation, because I think it's something that. A lot. And then we can talk about medication, because I think that's enough. That kind of is a good follow up. So when we're talking about supplements, I have a theory and I follow it very strictly with all of my patients, which is, first things first, do blood work. I want to know what you're deficient in, okay? Because if your body is deficient in a vitamin or a mineral that helps with sleep and we fix it, we might not need to put you on anything because you're just deficient. Maybe your diet isn't allowing you to get enough calcium or potassium or iron or magnesium or vitamin D or whatever. We need to figure that out first. So step number one is to do blood work. Step number two is to fix deficiencies. I can assure you nobody out there has a deficiency in ashwagandha, okay? They may have a deficiency in vitamin D, they may have a deficiency in magnesium, they may have a deficiency in iron. But ashwagandha, I'm pretty sure is not supposed to be in your system to begin with. Right? So don't think of it that way. Think of fix my deficiencies first. Now, let's say you do blood work and you're deficient in vitamin D and magnesium, okay, Fine. So you go out and you get some vitamin D. By the way, you want D3, not D2. D3 is the one that you want. It's the one that actually absorbs the best and does the most for you. From a circadian pacemaker standpoint, magnesium is another one. Lots of people want to know I'm deficient in magnesium. There's 13 kinds of magnesium. Dr. Bruce, what should I take? I have start everybody on magnesium glycinate with the G. It's easier on the stomach and it's helpful. By the way, most people are deficient in both vitamin D and magnesium for a whole host of reasons. Not getting enough sunlight, not using too much sunscreen. But also our root vegetables, where we get most of our magnesium. Our soil's been so over tilled that the magnesium isn't coming up through the rootstocks. And so we're really not seeing people getting the magnesium that they want. Now, I will also tell you that you need to be thoughtful because when you start to look at supplements, everybody out there thinks they're an expert. Everybody. Okay? Don't believe the hype, all right? You want to only use supplementation that has actually been clinically trialed and clinically tested. Very few people have got supplements that do that from a magnesium standpoint. I like a company called Upgraded Formulas Magnesium. I have no association with them. Other than I ran their clinical trial. So they came to me and said, we've got a magnesium, we think it's super fantastic. Michael, will you do a clinical trial? I did one and they were right. This magnesium works better than I recommend it to every one of my patients. This magnesium works better than anything I've ever, I've ever seen from Vitam. From a vitamin D perspective. I'll tell you what I personally take, I take D3, but it's combined with my omegas, right? And so remember, omegas are a good thing. That's fish oil. I personally like Nordic Naturals because they can combine them both in one pill. So it's one less pill to swallow. And Nordic Naturals is a well known company, been around for I don't know how many years. I think their standards of purity are quite high. So I'm not, I don't have a problem putting that into my body. That's it. That's my whole supplement stack, okay? I'm the friggin sleep doctor here. That's my whole supplement stack is magnesium, vitamin D and omegas.

[D]

And.

[B]

And by the way, at 57 years old, that's what almost everybody out there should probably be doing is taking a look at those things. Now let's say you have no deficiencies, right? But you're still not sleeping well and you want to try some level of supplementation. Okay, let's talk about that. So in your case, you did what 99% of people do, they've heard of melatonin, they think it's a sleep supplement. So we might as well go take it. Here's where this becomes problematic. Melatonin is a hormone. Let me repeat myself. Melatonin is a hormone. It is not an herb, it is not a root, it is not a mineral, okay? There's a reason why you can't go to the local CVS and buy testosterone and estrogen because they're hormones and hormones affect every system in the body. Yet for some crazy reason, melatonin snuck underneath the door and back in the 70s and now is not classified as a hormone. So that's problem number one. Problem number two. You might not know this, Cass, but in other countries, melatonin is by prescription only because it's a hormone, right? Like this is like, why do we do such stupid things? In the United States, if you go to Australia, you need a prescription for melatonin. If you go to Europe, you need a prescription for melatonin. And by the way, that's a really good idea because what it does is it changes the dose so that it's appropriate for you. That's the third big problem. Most melatonin that you can buy in the store here in the US is in an over dosage format. The appropriate dose based on the data out of MIT is somewhere between a half and one and a half milligrams.

[D]

Stop.

[B]

I know.

[A]

So you can get in like 15 milligrams.

[B]

Well, that's part, that's definitely why you started to have that restlessness is because you were literally taking 10 times the recommended dose. 10 times, Cass. So, and, and it's not your fault because nobody tells you, right? I mean, thankfully we're having this discussion on your pod. So all of your listeners now have got this important information that they know and understand. But I've got another fact that's, that's scary about melatonin that almost nobody knows. Melatonin interacts with several different medication classes. Number one, birth control. Yes, you heard that right? In, in Germany, high dosage of melatonin are a contraceptive. Yes, melatonin is a contraceptive. It changes the circadian rhythms of ovulation. So of course it's a contraceptive. It's a circadian pacemaker. Right. Not good. Number two, it affects every single antidepressant medication on the market. Everyone Prozac effects or select you, you name the antidepressant. Which by the way, a tremendous number of people are taking melatonin. Changes the effectiveness of that, by the way, two other drug classes, diabetes medication and blood pressure medication. So there are four different classes of drugs that melatonin basically screws them up and oh, I'm just going to go to CVS and grab my 15 milligrams of melatonin and hawk down two of them and hope for the best. Right? That is a terrible idea. Now there's also. But I wanted to say one thing. There is some good use for melatonin. I'm not always against it by the way. Way. So here's a few times when melatonin is appropriate. Jet lag. Absolutely, positively. This is exactly what melatonin was designed for, is to help you change your circadian rhythm. Shift work, right? You, my friend Cass, are a shift worker. Guess what, you're a firefighter. Most firefighters are shift workers. Why? Because they're waking up in the middle of the night because they got. Because they're on call. Because they're going to save people's lives and do all these important things, but your sleep gets completely screwed up. So for you, even and we can talk about it, because I have a feeling that your dosage was so high that's what was causing the RLS symptoms. I wonder if we put you at an appropriate dose, based on your shift working, if we could actually help your sleep quite a bit. I don't know that for sure yet. We'd have to experiment around, but I think that could be certainly a possibility. The third one is people who have a melatonin deficiency. Believe it or not, as we get older, melatonin is harder and harder to produce. I'm 57 years old. That's about the time, like, 50, 55 in that range. That's when we start to see melatonin production decline. So then it makes perfect sense to take a half a milligram of melatonin or one and a half at the. At the high side. But you really don't need more than that. Other people that we've seen melatonin be helpful for. There's a sleep disorder called REM behavior disorder, where people act out their dreams. Super scary. That one is where melatonin can be helpful. And believe it or not, ADD and adhd, there's been some data to show that as well. So I want to be clear to people that melatonin is not evil. However, it needs to be used appropriately at the right dose. And here's the last one. It should never be used in kids. Never. Okay. Melatonin is a contraceptive. I can't think of anything worse for a young female developing body than the introduction of a contraceptive when it's not necessary. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me, period. Full stop. Number two, 94% of children make four times the amount of melatonin that they need. Four times. Okay. However, there's one group of children where melatonin makes sense, and that's kids on the spectrum. Kids who are on the autism spectrum, it turns out 6 to 7 milligrams, which is a very high dose. It's perfect for them. We don't exactly know why, but it seems to work quite well in kids on the spectrum. So if you have a child on the spectrum or an adult child on the spectrum, melatonin could actually be something that helps you. But I want to be clear. Most people don't need a pill to sleep. Okay? Like, think about it like this. Have you always had a pill to sleep? Probably not. When you were a kid, did your parents give you pills to sleep? No, they didn't. By the way, that's the other problem with Giving children melatonin is. Because now they think they need a pill to sleep. We don't want to teach that to kids. That's a terrible idea.

[A]

Okay, I have to say this. Listen, this is so fascinating. I have a very good friend who is totally addicted to melatonin and has been her whole life. Takes a lot of melatonin. She is really having infertility issues and she has irregular periods and she's now like, this is blowing my mind. Because she's talking with an IVS IVF doctor now and they're looking at. But this hasn't been mentioned her, like, I don't know the milligrams she takes, but I know it's probably 15 to 20 a night and why. And she's really struggling to have a baby and has been for a long time, but yet no one has told her this correlation between.

[B]

Yeah, like it's, it's there. And she bring it to the attention of her doctor and figure something out. Okay, so we talked about herbs, we talked about supplements. The biggie being melatonin. Let's get into medications, right? And we're going to start with over the counter, which are available to most people. And then let's go to prescription because I think it's important that we cover this for your audience. Right? So over the counter meds, what we call otc, which stands for over the counter, right. Are things like nyquil, you know, zquil, anything with a PM on the end of it. Right? Yeah, let's talk about those for a second. So I want to be. I'm going to be very, very clear and people are not going to like hearing this. The PM part of these medications is usually a chemical called diphenhydramine, which is another name for Benadryl. Okay. There is now direct evidence to show a link between taking Benadryl on the nightly. And Alzheimer's. You heard it right? And Alzheimer's. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. And let me tell you something. The people at zquil, they could care less. Okay? They could care less. They just sell more of that liquid crap to everybody to help them supposedly fall asleep. They don't care what's going to happen to you in the long run. All of the PM medications have got this problem with it is that long term continuous use is not what's recommended. Now here's what's interesting is if you actually look on the box of any of these, it all says it right there. They're like, this is not meant for continuous use. You know, if you're using this for longer than two weeks. Talk to your doctor. But let's be clear, who goes and talks to their doctor? Nobody, right? If buy the bottle of Advil, PM, take a couple every night, you've got 120 in there, you're good for 60 days. If it still works, you'll just keep going. Because it's so much easier to buy a bottle of whatever, PM and just pop some pills than it is to actually do the work. Right? And the work is cognitive behavioral therapy. All right? So there is a well known, well documented therapy. I'm trained in it. There are thousands of doctors out there that are trained in it. And it works. It abs. And it works better than any medication on the market, and it works longer because it's a skill that you learn. And now you've got it forever, right? So OTC for sleep. If you're using it for more than two weeks. Bad. Officially bad. Stop. And you need to talk with your doctor.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

Right? Stop it. Now, let's talk about regular medications. Ambien, Sonata, Lunesta, any of the benzodiazepines, Restoril, Xanax, Lorazepam, all of the above. Okay? Now I want to be very, very, very clear. Some people need a pill to sleep, and that's okay. All right? If you're a paranoid schizophrenic, guess what? You get your Ambien, okay? Right. If you've got a major mental health problem, guess what? You get a sleeping pill. That's okay. Do not give yourself a hard time for this, okay? You're working on a whole different area of your life. And if you can have a pill that helps put you to sleep so that that other area works better, I'm perfectly fine with it. And 99% of doctors are, too, okay? So don't shame yourself. If you and your doctor have decided, hey, I'm going to take trazodone, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with doing something like that. However, I'll tell you where it gets weird. It gets weird when, number one, you try somebody else's medication, that's a really bad idea. And I can't count the number of people said, well, I took my. My spouse's Ambien and I found myself, you know, asleep in the kitchen. And, you know, and it's like, look, you idiot. Like that. It's not meant for you. That's why you had that reaction, right? And so, number one, don't ever take anybody else's meds. That's number one. Number Two, don't escalate dosage. Don't. Don't decide that you know better than your doctor, because you don't. I guarantee you that you don't. Okay? And so I can't count the number of people who say, okay, my doctor gave me a prescription for 10 milligrams of Ambien. So I crack it in half and I take half. That's okay. Taking less is going to be okay because you know your body, right? And you want to slowly adapt and okay, great. But taking more, Terrible idea. Terrible idea. Okay. And more doesn't always make you sleep better, by the way. It will for the first night or two. And then your body adapts, and now you're on the roller coaster. Now you're just continuing to escalate dosage, which means it's got. The drug's going to stop being effective, and now you're going to have a real problem on your hands. I can't count Cas, the number of people who've showed up in my office and they've said, hey, Dr. Bruce, I'm only sleeping four hours a night. I'm taking, you know, two 10 milligram Ambiens. I'm doing everything. I don't know what's going on. And I say, well, if you're only sleeping four hours and you're taking two 10 milligram Ambiens, why are you taking the ambience? Clearly, they're not working. And you know what their answer is? Every time. Can you imagine how bad my sleep would be if I didn't take those? The psychological addiction is real, folks, okay? It's real. Sleeping pills are appropriate for certain people at certain times. Another example, if you've got pain real quick, let me tell you what cognitive behavioral therapy is, because I know we're going to have to wrap things up in a second. Cognitive behavioral therapy is talk therapy that's done with a psychologist who's trained. And here's what we do is we look at how you think about sleep and we help you change your thoughts. So many people in your exact situation, Cas would say things like, oh, my gosh, if I don't get eight hours of sleep, my whole world is going to fall apart tomorrow. Right? Let's be fair. It has never fallen apart. I mean, it might not have been the best day, but it probably never. You know what I'm saying? So you get these ideas in your head, what we call catastrophizing ideas, where we make them worse and worse and worse and it's really hard to overcome those thoughts until you get into cognitive behavioral therapy where your therapist looks at you and says, none of that bad stuff that you think is happening is happening. Like, let's look at your biology. Like, you look perfectly healthy. Like, I think you're okay, you know? And so that's part of what cognitive behavioral therapy does. Also, there's a part of it called sleep restriction where we actually limit the amount of time you have in bed to consolidate your sleep. Sounds very counterintuitive to most insomniacs, but I got to tell you, something works like a charm. So to kind of put a bow on it, here's what I'll tell you is sleep is important. I think we've established that consistency is the key to most of your sleep issues. If you can get your supplements straight, get a blood test to see how things are going. Okay. And then finally, don't use supplements that you don't need and don't use over the counter medications that you find yourself becoming addicted to because you're just going to end up with more problems than you started.

[A]

I have one quick question. So I was complaining about my insomnia with a group of other perimenopausal women and my friend sue was like, you need magnesium, get magnesium. So I went and got magnesium and the day I took it, I slept better and I thought, this has got to bleed. The placebo effect. How can it work immediately because your body has to absorb it and blah, blah, blah. Was this in my head or can magnesium have that quick of an effect? If you're deficient, yes and no.

[B]

So if you're really deficient. Yes. So let's say that you were scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of your magnesium and you took it. Your body would absolutely jump on it, absorb it fast, and you would definitely see yourself. Those, those different things that it does for your body for sleep would definitely heighten and help. However, you are correct. You need to take it for a couple, three weeks before you really start to see anything major. Assuming that you don't. Again, your magnesium isn't in the bottom of the barrel.

[A]

Okay, so it might be in my head. I'm just going to pretend it's not because I find it is helpful in your head.

[B]

I'm saying you might have been so magnesium deficient, which is probably the case that it caused that. By the way, magnesium deficiency can also cause those restless leg symptoms that we were talking about earlier. So I think what we need to be is, is thoughtful and let's, let's get your blood tested and let's see what you're deficient in. And then let's get you on the right supplements if you need them. And then let's see how you sleep.

[A]

Yeah. So good. Okay, thank you. I'm feeling excited. Except for the part where you told me that I need to wake up the same time every day, even on the weekends day. That was a real. That was a real bummer, doctor. Dr. Bruce. That was a real, real bummer. But I'm gonna give it a try for you because you're amazing. And I'm gonna test this for two weeks and fingers crossed. I mean, yeah, I could play video games during the day. I don't have to wait till the middle of the night.

[B]

Like, exactly.

[A]

Like a toddler. Have to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Cozy Earth. Speaking of your bedroom and getting a good night's sleep, let's talk about good sheets. I switched to Cozy Earth years ago and I am still obsessed with them. They're so soft, they're temperature regulating, they're bamboo. But I'm also obsessed with their pajamas. And right now, these viral PJs were totally sold out over the holidays. But between January 25th and February 8th, if you go to cozyearth.com and use my exclusive code, Clutterbug, there's a bogo sale. So buy one, get one free. It's pretty amazing. And while you're there, check out the sheets. They come with a 10 year warranty and a 100 night sleep guarantee. Again, go to cozyearth.com and use my promo code, Clutterbug. I'm a slob in the inside, you know what I mean? I'm not a naturally organized person, maybe because I'm a little flighty, as you've probably seen. I'm a little. I don't organize in a traditional way. And what I've found with years of helping other people is that there are generally four different organizing styles. And it comes down to how you sort and how you store. So some people are really detailed, meticulous, a type, lots of little categories. And other people like me are more big picture, laid back. We don't do a lot of categories. And then on the other side, what I've found is there's a lot of people who get really overstimulated by looking at a lot of stuff and they prefer a hidden organizing approach. And then we have people who are really visual, out of sight, out of mind. They actually feel energized by seeing their things. So it's this combination of how you naturally sort if you're detailed or not detailed and how you naturally store if you're really visual or you prefer like hidden storage that make up your organizing style. I gave them bug names. Here we are.

[B]

So here's what I would say is if people are really interested in the details, then you're probably more of a dolphin. Because my dolphins have a tendency to be a little OCD and they have a tendency to say things just aren't exactly the way I want them, they're not exactly right. That kind of thing. And then from a categorical standpoint in a laid back person. You said some people are just more laid back. I think the wolves would be into that category, the late nighters, because they're laid back about everything. You know, like it's like they're barely awake half the morning so, you know, they're happy to just chill and be relaxed. I think maybe they would fall into those. To some of those categories probably.

[A]

I want to dig deeper and find out. That actually makes a lot of sense. I love this. Yeah. That high anxiety could be that. That like a type. The bees and crickets or what I call them, they're like, ah, everything must be perfect at all times.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So interesting.

[B]

Dolphins. Dolphins.

[A]

Well, thank you. I hope everyone listening is feeling really educated and inspired to make their sleep a priority. I'm gonna put in the show notes how you can follow Dr. Bruce and link to your books. The good stuff down below. Is there something else you want them to go and see and help? How can they take your quiz? That's a good one.

[B]

That's where I was headed. I think if people can go take my quiz. If you go to chronoquiz.com, we'll put the link in the show notes. But it's C H R O N O q u I z.com and you'll learn what your sleep animal is and then you're going to be off and running.

[A]

I love it. Thank you so much. This was incredibly helpful. You're amazing and hopefully we have you back again soon.

[B]

I can't wait.

[A]

Man, that was so interesting. I am so impressed. I also feel like maybe Dr. Bruce has a little bit of ADHD. Anyone else feeling that energy? Maybe not. I feel like I can spot a fellow ADHDER a mile away. He's just really excited about sleep and I love that he's also incredibly knowledgeable. The thing that's stood out the most to Me was the melatonin being a hormone and also a contraceptive. Who knew that? Not me. And the bummer part about stop staying up super late and sleeping in on the weekends and how detrimental that is to my circadian rhythm. So I'm gonna actually give this a try. I. I learned so much in this podcast and I hope you did too. Now it's time for my favorite part of the podcast. Talk to Cas and let's start with a story from Amy.

[D]

Hi, Cass, this is Amy from Minnesota. First off, just want to say I've been listening to you for a while. You've absolutely changed my life. What I wanted to come on here and do a recording is how you've changed my kids lives. I'm a single mom and I always, for the past year, have been trying to tell my kids, if. If your room is messy or if something is messy, then you have too much stuff. I try to look them in the eyes and say, you're a clean and tidy person, so if you can't keep something clean, it means you have too much stuff. And I've just been sounding like a broken record and I didn't even think they were listening. And a couple days ago, I walked into my son's room and it's an absolute dumpster fire. And I said, hey, he's 10. I said, hey, what do I say about a messy room? And he said, if I can't keep it clean, it's got too much stuff. And I said, yep. And then that moment of like, you were listening, but then he looks at me and he goes, I think I gotta get rid of some stuff, mom. And I was like, yeah, do you want me to help you? He's like, yeah, let's do it. And didn't take that long. Sat on the floor with him. He got rid of a ton of stuff. We rearranged his desk. We pulled an old office chair to be his new chair. And he just absolutely loves his room and is so proud. And if. If I can have that stick with my kids through their life, their life's gonna be so much better. And I just wanna thank you for that.

[A]

Aw, I love that. You're such a good mama, Amy. That's so good. You're taking the blame off the kid and where it belongs, which is on the things, the inanimate objects. And I think, especially as a kid, I was a messy kid. I had so much shame about my room and my desk and my inability to. To manage things. And even as an adult, really. And what A beautiful gift you're giving your kids for them to be like, I'm not the problem. I'm amazing, and I'm super organized and clean. It's the stuff. And that's what we really should put the blame on. And that's the easiest way to get our lives under control is to have less. So, Amy, you're amazing. Great job. Nella, we have a question from Lauren.

[B]

Hi, Cass.

[A]

This is Lauren from South Africa.

[B]

Love your podcast and your YouTube channel. Thank you for everything you do. I particularly love decluttering along with you.

[A]

While you're teaching us stuff.

[B]

And we did a great session today, and you would have been very proud. Cass, please, can you do something on how to set up the command station for the family?

[A]

Yes. I love this. I think sometimes what we do is we look at command centers on Pinterest or online and we try to copy it because we think it's beautiful, but then it doesn't work, and then your family's not using it. The best thing that you can do is take a look at what papers naturally accumulate in your hotspot. So on your kitchen counter or in your entrance way, where are your schedules? Where are your calendars, where you put your note? Where do you put that reminder that you have a doctor's appointment next week? Or, you know, that little paper to remind you of a baby shower next month? Make your command center in that natural hotspot zone and kind of make it mimic how you naturally organize. So if you're a visual person, put it up on the wall. If you're a hidden organizer, maybe it's a little file box with file folders right there. So it doesn't feel overwhelming. But absolutely. The mistake that a lot of people make is looking for inspiration with other people's command centers instead of looking at their own actual systems that they need for their home and how they naturally are using their space and adapting their command center to look like that. So if you're not a person who plans every your, like, menu every week, don't include a menu planner. That's not your thing. Work with how your family naturally flows and what you naturally put things down, and I promise you'll see success. And last but not least, let's hear from Anonymous.

[C]

Hey, Cass, I just wanted to hop on here to give a quick tip to someone who may struggle like I do when it comes to buying items that you know you're not going to use, but in the moment, you really think, oh, wow, I know I'm going to use this I just. I can picture it now. It's going to be great. No, you don't need it anyway. So I, for instance, have boxes of tea sitting in my kitchen that I think I'm really going to drink and I know I'm not. So what I started doing, doing, I started making a list of all these things in my phone. And every time. And I kind of. I pin it. You can pin it to the top of your notes. I keep my notes. I write everything down in and right next to the grocery list. I have do not buy and I have tea listed amongst other things. But this goes for clothing items. Just anything you notice. Like, you declutter constantly, but you also just keep buying for whatever reason. I hope this can help someone else because it has started to really help me and realize, okay, I don't need this. Don't buy that. I just wanted to say thank you.

[A]

For all that you do.

[C]

You're amazing and I hope this helps.

[A]

This actually is very helpful for me.

[B]

I.

[A]

With adhd, I think I forget to remember things like this. And I do. I have these things I buy over and over and then I'm like, why do I buy these things? They never work out. And I declutter them over and over. And for me, it is a lot of like beauty product, makeupy type things. I just got some lymph, lymphatic system, vibrating machine off of Tick Tock or so. Stop it, Cass. I'm gonna put a note in my app and then before I buy something, I gotta look at my list. Is this a thing on my list to not buy? Which is beauty gadgets is probably the number one and new face creams is number two. Stop it. That is. That Maquillage foundation is not gonna fix your face, my love. Stop it. I hope you learned something in today's podcast. I hope you're feeling motivated and inspired. But most of all, I hope your bedroom looks amazing. I hope it looks better than it did when you started and that you are looking forward to having a great night's sleep tonight because you deserve it. You deserve a bedroom that feels like a hotel oasis. And if you didn't quite get it, totally there. Don't worry. Tomorrow is a new day. Keep picking away at it and eventually you'll be so proud of a space that is just for you. Thank you guys so much and I'll see you next time.