The Wheel of Decluttering: A Fun Way to Finally Let Go with Abigail Roe | Clutterbug Podcast # 294

Summary

Podcast Summary: Clutterbug #294 – The Wheel of Decluttering: A Fun Way to Finally Let Go with Abigail Roe

Date: October 6, 2025
Host: Cass (Clutterbug)
Guest: Abigail Roe (Downsize Upgrade)

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Episode Overview

In this energizing episode, Cass welcomes decluttering and downsizing expert Abigail Roe to share a radically logical (and refreshingly fun) approach to letting go of clutter. Together, they break down how to cut through emotional (and procrastinatory) barriers to decluttering using science, tough love, and even playful tools like the Wheel of Decluttering. This episode blends practical systems with motivational truth bombs and offers hands-on strategies for anyone determined to tackle clutter before the year’s end.

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Main Discussion Highlights

The Power of a Time Crunch

• Cass’s Challenge: With only three months left in the year, Cass encourages listeners to ignite a last-minute push toward their decluttering goals, insisting it’s not too late to make major changes.
  • "This is your chance to make a huge difference in your life and to make 2025 your best year ever. So get up and get a trash bag and get stuff out, because honestly, it will change your life." (03:39)

Meet Abigail Roe: Songful Scientist of Decluttering

• Background: Abigail, formerly a pre-K–5th grade music teacher, combines her analytical mind with playful teaching through social media (Downsize Upgrade). She makes decluttering accessible with logical frameworks, memorable mantras, and even silly songs to make lessons stick.
  • "There's so much science behind, like, if you're able to repeat a little mantra or a little rhyme or a little song, like, it's gonna stick in your head easier." – Abigail (06:02)
• Mission: She helps those overwhelmed by their stuff overcome both emotional and logistical blocks, emphasizing simplification in all areas of life, from time management to intentional buying.

The Logic-First Approach

• Abigail entered the decluttering world by analyzing how she spent her time before tackling her stuff. She realized that true change began with intentional, productive, and joyful activities, not just removing excess possessions.
  • "I was spending so much time not doing things that were productive or genuinely joyful. That was a real 180 for me." – Abigail (11:55)

Balancing Joy and Productivity

• Abigail and Cass discuss how productivity alone can become unhealthy when turned into a constant, unfulfilling pursuit. Abigail suggests using a scale (1–10) for both “joy” and “productivity” to assess tasks with nuance and in the moment.
  • "Pushing yourself to the point of exhaustion or overwhelm is not productive. So I think for me, kind of thinking about it as a task is not necessarily always the same number." – Abigail (14:24)

Sentimentality and Truth Bombs

• Abigail is direct with clients who claim to be “sentimental,” challenging them to distinguish between true sentiment and simple inability to let go.
  • "Are you really sentimental, or are you just bad at getting rid of things?" – Abigail (18:08)
• She advocates for curating and honoring meaningful items intentionally, rather than hoarding and forgetting them in storage.

Key Principles for Letting Go

• Purposeful Sentiment: Keep only what you truly value and use or display it, instead of packing memories away where they gather dust.
  • "My home is not a museum. I don't have to keep every item from every era of my life." – Abigail (21:32)
• If Everything is Special, Nothing is: Limit keepsakes so each truly retains meaning.

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The Wheel of Decluttering: Motivation Meets Game Show

• A recurring feature on Abigail’s channels, the Wheel of Decluttering randomly selects categories (e.g., "travel size toiletries," "yarn," "random containers") for followers to tackle within 24 hours.

  • "If you do choose to play and the wheel ends on something that you need to declutter, you only have the next 24 hours to make at least a little bit of progress on it." – Abigail (27:35)

• The podcast features a live “spin” of the wheel:

  • Lands on: "Travel size toiletries. Those shampoo bottles that you stole from that hotel in 2018, girlfriend. Come on now."** – Abigail (33:10)

• Notable Moment:

  • Cass and Abigail joke about the toughest Wheel prompts (ex: “yarn” for crafters), and both agree: sometimes you need to be lovingly brutal to get things moving.

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Practical Decluttering Strategies & Tips

Clothing Declutter: The F.I.V.E. Method

• Fits your body
• Intact (not stained, ripped, itchy)
• Versatile with your wardrobe
• Expresses your style
  • "Let's get rid of and donate, of course... those clothes that just don't feel like you." – Abigail (23:57)

Letting Go Guilt-Free

• Visualize your donated items going to someone who needs them—make the story about their new life with another person.
  • "It's an end for you, but it's a beginning for someone else." – Abigail (26:23)

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Intentional Buying: The Deliberation Station

• Abigail teaches Cass her method for curbing impulse purchases—a checklist for evaluating each potential buy:

  1. Have you considered it for at least 2 weeks?
  2. Does it solve a genuine problem?
  3. Do you already own something similar?
  4. Is it worth the financial sacrifice?
  5. What’s its likely fate in 5 years?
  6. Where will it live?
  7. How much work for how much use?
  8. Can you be happy/productive without it?
  9. Cost per use? ...etc.

• Memorable Segment: Cass realizes, live on air, her would-be massager wouldn’t make the cut:

  • "If I was going to use it, I'd use the thing I already have that's similar, but I'm not using it." – Cass (42:16)

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The Organizing Styles Debate

• Abigail tries to determine her Clutterbug Organizing Style—initially thinking she's a Ladybug (hidden, macro), but Cass quickly pegs her as a Cricket (hidden, micro) due to her love of categorization—even if she now avoids folding and goes for open bins.
  • "You're the most crickety cricket, but you're also a cool... you've made it accessible and you've made it easy." – Cass (49:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If everything is special, nothing is special." – Cass (22:07)
• "Honoring sentiments and actually being sentimental has been really beautiful. My home is not a museum." – Abigail (21:32)
• "Abigail is the type of person who holds your hand while smacking you across the face." – (Testimonial, 34:31)
• "I think the analytical and the logistical part of my brain, for some people, that can be intimidating... but then the pre K teacher in me is like, no, no, we're gonna make it super simplified." – Abigail (41:09)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–05:09 – Cass’s motivational pep talk and end-of-year challenge
• 05:09–12:00 – Abigail’s introduction, backstory, and initial approach to decluttering
• 12:00–20:00 – Joy, productivity, and emotional vs. logical decluttering
• 20:00–27:00 – Sentimentality, truth bombs, and honing what matters
• 27:35–35:00 – The Wheel of Decluttering explained and played live
• 36:00–45:00 – Deliberation Station and impulse purchases; using frameworks for decision-making
• 45:00–51:00 – Organizing style reveal; playful banter on categories, crickets, and ladybugs

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Listener Q&A (Selected Insights)

• How to Manage Kids & Clutter: Toy rotation keeps overwhelm low for both children and parents. Less is more!
• Decluttering vs. Organizing: If you find yourself regretting decluttering, you may have hit your personal “clutter threshold”; time to focus on organizing, not just purging.
• Sentimental Hoarding & Storage Units: Cass recommends “legacy lists”—pairing select keepsakes with the stories that make them special, instead of relegating loved ones’ things to forgotten storage.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Spin your own Wheel: Challenge yourself daily or weekly with bite-sized decluttering tasks.
• **Use the F.I.V.E. test for clothing and apply a logic-first checklist to reduce buying.
• Honor sentiment by curating, not hoarding: Keep the best, pass on the rest, and capture the stories that matter.
• Balance productivity with joy: Aim for tasks that rate at least 5/10 on one scale, adjusting for your needs and context.
• Stop delaying—small consistent steps build the momentum and self-pride you crave.

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Connect with Abigail Roe

• Instagram/TikTok: @downsizeupgrade
• Website: downsizeupgrade.com

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Motivation to Close With

Cass leaves listeners with a challenge to make the final months of 2025 count—pick one space, start now, and keep track of your progress for the 300th episode celebration!

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone striving to break emotional attachment to things, needing compassionate accountability, or craving practical, science-backed steps to start decluttering, organizing, and living more intentionally.

Transcript

[Cass]

Today we're talking about decluttering, but we're talking about it differently. Usually, I approach the idea of letting go with a lot of emotion, whether I'm trying to bring it to you with tough love or pull on your heartstrings, talk about you deserve it in all the feels. But today we're going to look at a different approach when it comes to decluttering. I am so excited to interview Abigail Rowe from Downsize Upgrade Grade. And I'm excited because she approaches decluttering with this incredible logic. And she has a formula and she has checklists, which really takes the emotion out of it, but it also takes the overthinking out of it. It's clear, it's concise, and it's not boring. Abigail's actually a music teacher in her past life, so she brings adorable jingles. And she's kind of mean, too. I mean, she brings a little tough love in her own way, too. Some truth bombs and the sound science of downsizing. I have to tell you, this is one of my favorite interviews. Just like always, I do not want you to just sit and passively listen to this podcast or watch this video. I want you to get up and do something to make yourself proud, to make your house better. So at the end of this conversation, you're going to be like, I'm amazeballs, and look what I got done. And honestly, since we're talking about decluttering, that's what we should do. Let's get real for a second. I'm going to bring a little tough love. It is almost the end of 2025. In fact, we have three months left. Three months. Was it your goal this year to declutter and organize your home? Like, what did you have in mind at the beginning of 2025 that you hoped you would achieve by the end of this year? And I'm here to tell you there is still time. In fact, three months, you can, like, move a mountain, a literal mountain of clutter out of your home. I'm challenging you right now. Lock in and make this year count to do something in 2025. Get your house organized, get decluttered. Transform one space into something beautiful and an oasis for yourself. And then at the end of this year, you can look back and say, yeah, I kicked my butt. Not your butt, your house's butt. In 2025. Like, look what I did this year. I want you to feel that fire. We all procrastinate, right? We do, but this is it. We procrastinated to the last moment. But it doesn't mean that you have to wait until 2026 to start again. This is your moment. This is your chance to make a huge difference in your life and to make 2025 your best year ever. So get up and get a trash bag and get stuff out, because honestly, it will change your life. It will change every year. After 2025, when you have a clutter free home, getting ST is the first step. So come on, man, let's go wherever you want to start today, your kitchen, your bedroom, you do you, boo. Just get stuff done. I'm really passionate about this right now. Like, this lock in challenge. Mostly because I saw it on TikTok, but also because I had big goals for myself in. In 2025. I said I was gonna run a 5k, I said I was gonna work out every day, I was gonna get stronger, I was gonna write a book. And I. I have accomplished, like, none of that. And I started feeling really bad about myself. Like, oh, of course I didn't. And I'm looking at my goal sheet. Like, what's wrong with you? But what, the year isn't over. Like, what do you. Like, what am I doing? In fact, I work best under pressure. I'm a procrastinator. I'm the queen of procrastination. And now that I have this three month time crunch, this pressure to get her done, I feel like a fire. Like, yes, I can cram an entire year's worth of goals into three months, months. And so can you. So, like, let's do this, queens. So keep this in your mind as we are listening to this incredible interview with Abigail. And she talks about downsizing and buying less in all things decluttering. I have to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Factor Factor delivers incredible meals to your door, but they're already cooked. It's like kind of like a TV dinner, except they're fresh, never frozen, and they're actually like, huge portions and they taste good. We're not talking about those, like, gross hungry man TV dinners. This is ready in the microwave in two minutes and it tastes like something you got from a restaurant. And why I love this is because if you are constantly, like, on the rush, like I am, and you don't want to get fast food for lunch. You want something healthy and nutritious. This is the way to go. 97 of the customers said that Factor has actually helped them live a happier life right now. You can go to FactorMeals.com clutterbug50off and use the code clutterbug50OFF to get 50 off your first box plus free breakfast for one year. Again, that's [e-mail] for 50 off your first box, plus free breakfast for one year.

[Abigail Rowe]

Welcome.

[Cass]

Hi, Abigail.

[Abigail Rowe]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Cass]

I'm excited to have you here. I've been deep diving your Instagram. Man, you're cute. You're cute. Not only do you offer, you offer, like, really just easy, simplified tips to obviously decluttering and minimalism, but you also sometimes sing a little jingle, which I appreciate.

[Abigail Rowe]

I do. I have a lot of little tunes I used to do relatively regularly. I need to get back to it. But I used to do silly songs with Abigail. It comes from. Prior to doing this full time, I was a music teacher and I taught pre K through fifth grade. So, like, I am. I am always, you know, able to come up with a silly little jingle. Some people love them. I think they're cute.

[Cass]

I absolutely love them. They're just so adorable. But also helpful. They're like helpful jingles. So this is incredible.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah. There's so much science behind, like, if you're able to repeat a little mantra or a little rhyme or a little song, like, it's gonna stick in your head easier. And there's so many people that are like, I replay them over and over and over again as I'm decluttering, like, to remind myself, and I'm like, hey, whatever gets the message across.

[Unknown Listener 1]

So good.

[Cass]

Well, if my listeners haven't discovered you yet, I would love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah. So my name is Abigail Rowe, and you can find me pretty much everywhere at Downsize, Upgrade. And so on my channel, we talk about all things simplification. So the biggest piece of my content is decluttering. You know, there's a lot of people that are really overwhelmed with how much stuff they have in their home and they want to live with less, but they don't know how to start or they don't know how to keep going when they get stuck. So I. I make that easier for them to kind of overcome a lot of those emotional barriers, those logistical barriers. So we have a lot of fun doing that. And then sometimes I also talk about intentional buying because a lot of people are like me and like, big impulse buyers. And so I always encourage people to slow down and think critically before bringing things into your home. And then, of course, we talk about time management and relationships and activities and all of those things. So all kinds of ways to just simplify your life and, you know, reap the benefits of that.

[Cass]

Okay, so how'd you get started? Were you always like, oh, I have my life together?

[Abigail Rowe]

Yes. Decluttering Guru, 1994? No, definitely not. I. Yeah, I feel like when I kind of entered into adulthood, right, and I was on my own for the first time and I was having to manage all of my stuff, I didn't realize how detrimental it was to be holding. Especially because, you know, in college and like right out of college, you're living in tiny little spaces and you're just moving things from one home to the next and the next and the next. And, you know, I think as a society we bring so much stuff in, like all the time. We're shopping, we're buying things, and there's really not a huge occasion for getting stuff out. And so I actually really started by focusing on the activities that I was doing and the people that I was spending time with. Because there was a lot of things that they weren't productive for me and they weren't bringing me true, genuine joy. So I was spending a lot of time, you know, doom scrolling and watching my numbing TV and spending time with people that really I shouldn't have been spending time with. And when I got really purposeful about that, that is when it kind of translated when I was looking around at my stuff saying, okay, this stuff isn't productive, this stuff isn't bringing me joy. And again, you're. I'm just shuffling it from one place to the next. And so that's when it kind of translated into the decluttering. And then I was decluttering, but I was still impulse buying so much. And I was like, why is my inventory still unmanageable? And it was like, oh, yeah, because you're getting stuff out, but you're still bringing stuff in. That number is not going to change. And so then I started getting into the intentional buying. So it kind of. It's a little bit of a backwards path for me. I think people enter into it in different ways, but that's kind of the trajectory. Yeah, for me. Yeah.

[Cass]

I love that. That is so interesting. I've never heard someone come at it from that place. Like I came at the idea of decluttering from just sheer overwhelm, crying in a pile of my own hoard where, you know. And it was the stuff I was focused on first. What. It's so fascinating that you were like looking at almost like a Time. You started with the time. And that for me was just the byproduct of removing the stuff. The thing that shocked me the most was, wow. But you were really like, you're like analytical and logical over there, aren't you?

[Abigail Rowe]

I am, I am. I. I would love to, you know, say that I'm a little like sometimes I think people think I'm so free spirited and I'm like, no, no, I. It's like over here it's spreadsheets and logistics and yes, analysis all the time. But that's, you know, everyone is. Approaches it a little bit differently. But yeah, I'm a little, I'm definitely more analytical.

[Cass]

I love, I actually really love that because I came from a purely emotional. Right. And I'm talking to my audience as if they're also coming from this, from a purely emotional side. So I love your perspective of you're coming from it, from a very like, let's put it on paper here. This doesn't make sense. And here's why. You talk a lot about like the main goal being joy and productivity. So let's talk about that because I'm going to push back slightly. I'm in this place where productivity is kind of became not super healthy for me. So let's have a real talk.

[Abigail Rowe]

Let's.

[Cass]

I'd love to go. Joy, productivity.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah. So for me, I, So I was in a space again, just kind of entering into adulthood and I felt like I would go through periods of time where I would like really be on it and really have it together and have my goals set. And then I was just burnt out by that. And then I'd go back into this like monotony. I'm like, I'm going to school and then I'm going to work. And like every day is the same. I'm just cleaning the house. Like everything was very. It was kind of one end of the spectrum and I didn't feel like I had the balance that I think, you know, we have to be productive. There's things that we have to get done. Everybody would love to, you know, not have to go to work or not have to clean the house, but that's realistic. But I don't think it's, you know, beneficial for the millions of people who are so bogged down with how much they have to do to be productive that they're not able to get any joy anywhere. And so I was really seeking that balance and I literally googled like how to feel better about yourself. And that is what came up is that it just really comes down to doing things that are productive because we feel good about ourself when we are getting things done that need to be done. Working towards goals, because productivity can be, you know, I. I'm training for a triathlon, so going to, to the YMCA and, and swimming. That's productive for me because I'm working towards a goal. It can be, you know, any type of goal that you're working towards or any type of thing that needs to get done. So sometimes they can overlap. Like, that's joyful for me, but it's also productive because I'm working. And then I think the one that for me was a real sticking point when I, I was really like, mind blown was how many things I was doing in my leisure time that weren't productive, but they also weren't joyful. And I was like, whoa, when I finally have time to spend time with myself, why am I choosing these things that are, you know, I'm scrolling Facebook and it's like, Hannah from biology that I sat next to as a freshman is having her third baby. Who cares? I haven't talked to her in 10 years. It's my cousin Josh and his terrible political opinions. Who cares? You know, And I'm like, why am I spending three hours keeping up? And you're not really keeping up because it's just what they present. So it's like, why am I. I just was doing it because it was so habitual. I actually deleted all of my social media in. I deleted all of my social media in college and I didn't have anything until TikTok in the, in the pandemic. And even now I don't have personal social media except for TikTok. I just post on social media. But yeah, I was spending, I was spending so much time not doing things that were productive or genuinely joyful. And so that was a, that was a real 180 for me when I started focusing on those.

[Cass]

Okay, I love the way you describe it because I'll tell you, for me, like, I just have a really addictive personality. And I saw the same thing you did that I suddenly, when I was being productive and making my lists and checking things off and trying to be more intentional with how I spend my time, it felt so good. Like, I went to bed every night feeling proud of myself. What, what I did was then took it too far, as one does, and became almost like a trophy chaser. So as soon as I, I achieved a goal, I immediately was focusing on, like, what's the next goal I gotta be productive. I gotta, I can't go to bed unless I've checked off my to do list. And it became, it took this really positive, healthy thing and it kind of went over to not healthy. So I, I like what you're saying. It's like the joy plus product. So do you ever find that maybe you're, you're doing, you're. Is product too much productivity a good thing?

[Abigail Rowe]

I.

[Cass]

Could it be a bad thing?

[Abigail Rowe]

Well, I think when it becomes a bad thing, then it's no longer productive. So for me I'm like, okay, if I am. So, you know, maybe it's, I'm, I have two little kids, right? I have two under two. Like, am I exhausted? Am I overwhelmed? Am I, you know, if I'm feeling those things, then like cleaning the bathroom isn't productive for me. Because what's productive actually at 8:30 when my kids are asleep is to rest. So I think for me I have to really like. And that's, that's what I like about. I always kind of think of it on a scale, right? Like productivity, 1 to 10, genuine joy 1 to 10. And I try not to do things that are not at least a 5 or above on either of the scales. Like, it doesn't have to be both because a lot of times you're productive and it's not necessarily joyful. A lot of times your genuine joy isn't really super productive. But it's funny because like, sometimes laundry is a 10, right? Like, I don't have any clean underwear for tomorrow. I have to get it done. Other times it's like, okay, this load of, you know, almost all the clothes in the house are clean and folded. This load of laundry, doing this after such an exhausting day. Or maybe you're sick or maybe you're, you know, whatever it is. Laundry at this point in time is actually like a 2 or 3 on productivity because pushing yourself to the point of exhaustion or overwhelm is not productive. So I think for me, kind of thinking about it as a task is not necessarily always the same number. It's kind of putting it in context of how you're feeling the situation. Similar with working. Like, you know, we work from home. Like I work from home. And it's sometimes the nights and the days blur together and I can work at 10pm and edit a video if I want to. But like, is that the most. You know what I mean? So it's, I think for me it's been helpful to, to put productivity in context.

[Cass]

You're really good. You're. And also I feel like your. Your beautiful, analytical, logical brain has helped you really step back and see things for what they are, as opposed to me, who tends to give into emotion first. You're like, let's. Let's roll back that emotion and think logically. So good. You also sound very much like a Zen minimalist.

[Abigail Rowe]

Oh, you are too kind. I. I'm. I will say I'm starting to. To feel. I'm kind of glad that I really pared down and got intentional and kind of started this journey before children, because now I'm like, get that hospital bracelet out of here. Because if I see it in six months, I'm gonna be emotional. Like, get. Like, I. I'm like, oh, a piece of art from daycare. Like, unless it's really, really something that I genuinely feel like I'm going to be looking at in 20 years, we're not keeping it. Like, I. And I feel like if I hadn't started my journey when I wasn't as sentimental because I was, like, 20, you know, I feel like motherhood would have been much more of a challenge. And that's what a lot of my. A lot of my students in my course, a lot of my followers are, you know, they struggle with. And I'm like, I don't feel like I fully understood the emotions behind it because I was just so young and in a. Experience. And now that I'm, you know, the. The big old age of 31, I'm like, I get it now. I've got two kids. I. I'm starting to understand the. The sentiment a little better.

[Cass]

Yeah, but you've built your decluttering muscles, right? So you're strong. So it's less. Oh, it's good. And I think even when we are sentimental of things, it's that practice, it's that exposure therapy to little things that builds our own muscle no matter where we're starting. So maybe you're in your 60s and you're like, I'm so sentimental. It doesn't mean that you can't get to where you.

[Abigail Rowe]

So many. So many people are like, I'm sentimental. And I'm like, are you. Or do you just have 20 boxes of stuff that you don't look at in the garage? Because, like, are you sentimental or are you just not able to let go of stuff? Because, like, to me, I. I love being sentimental and, like, honoring those sentiments. Like, I have a very purposeful collection of things from my childhood. I have a very purposeful collection of, you know, the first couple of years of my. I have a kiddo. My oldest will be two in November. My youngest will be one in November. So, like, they don't have a lot right? But, like, I am. And even, like, pictures. You know, you take 10 pictures at the park immediately I'm deleting nine of them. So, like, I'm very intentional of curating, like, as I go, because then I can actually be sentimental. I can look at the sentiment. I can honor it. I can. I can. Like, I think it's so beautiful to have a collection of things that is manageable to actually, like, whether you're getting it out and using it or displaying it or whatever that is. Because I. Yeah, I would be so overwhelmed if I didn't, like, kind of do it as it was happening. Trying to do it later is so much harder.

[Cass]

It is. But also, I'm gonna rewind because Abigail just brought a truth bomb. And I really love that You. You. You literally said, are you really sentimental, or are you just bad at getting rid of things? And that was so good because I think I, Even as myself, as, like, decluttering experts, sometimes we tiptoe around the truth because we don't want to hurt people's feelings. But not hurting people's feelings is not helping them. So if you're listening to this, I hope that really sunk in because you aren't being sentimental or honoring loved ones memories by keeping them in a dusty box in a basement getting moldy. Right. Or whatever.

[Abigail Rowe]

Like, grandma does not want her stuff in my attic. I don't think that she does. I really don't. And I really. And that's the thing. Like, it's so, like. So one of the things I. My. My grandmother passed away about five years ago now, and I just inherited a couple of things. Just a couple simple things. And one of them is she was, like, fiercely Catholic and super into sports and competitive, and she had this hoodless Notre Dame, like, vintage sweatshirt. And I live in Houston, so we don't wear, you know, outerwear very often. But I was in the winter. Winter being loose here, right? We have, like, a month where it's under 50 in the winter. I would wear the sweatshirt every day to school, and, you know, I'd get hot in the middle of the day, so I'd take it off, and I would lose it. Like, it was everywhere. Because I'm the music teacher, so I'm everywhere in the school. I have five. I had 500 students that I was seeing weekly. And so I would lose it, and it Would get to the lost and found, and, like, three different times, the kids would come up and be like, miss, this is your sweatshirt. Like, they're gonna take it to the. To the Goodwill. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, thank you so much. This is my grandma's sweatshirt. Like, my grandma, who's everything to me, But I was like, you know what? Like, wearing it and honoring that and, like, feeling connected to her and remembering her every time I wore it, I'm like, if something really happened to it, if I lost it because of the person that I am, if my kiddo, you know, spits up on it and we have to wash it so many times that it's threadbare, I think my grandma would have preferred that, and I would prefer that over it being in a box and me never looking at it, because what's the point? I mean, you know what I mean? So that. That, to me, like, honoring sentiments and actually being sentimental has been really beautiful. And I know people are scared to do that because what if something happens to it or what? You know? But, yeah, I don't know. I think it's been such a. It's just been such a purposeful way to. You know, my home is not a museum. I don't have to keep every item from every era of my life and every. You know, I could. But I can display things beautifully. I can honor things and. And use them and wear them and, you know, live with them.

[Cass]

Yeah. So that's so good. Let's just, like, really, if we're going to give them a truth bomb, let's go. Also, if everything is special, nothing is special.

[Abigail Rowe]

Right?

[Cass]

Right. So when you're in that mentality of, like, oh, but this was this, and this was this, and suddenly you're just. Everywhere you look, it's clutter, and you're not noticing any of the truly special things that invoke that memory and those feelings. You're just looking at piles of mess.

[Abigail Rowe]

Well. And you're not able to create new memories because your home is so frustrating, so overwhelming. You don't have the space. You don't have the mental clarity. You don't have the energy. Like, it's. It's very hard to feel good about your space when you're living with so much of the past. And I'm not, you know. Minimalism. Right. Like, I'm not saying get rid of everything and have a spoon and a chair, but, like, I like. I just think that you like curating and being intentional about which items and the number of items and, like, you can condense and then, you know, actually honor the past and have time for the present and space for the future. Who knows where life's going to take you?

[Cass]

All right, I want another truth bomb. Listen, right now, what is something that my listeners, as they're listening right now, should get rid of? Like, there's. There's things. Yeah. Are there things that people have too.

[Abigail Rowe]

Many of, like your husband? That's not appropriate. Let's edit that part out of the trash. That was my first thought.

[Cass]

We're not editing that out. Every wife everywhere wants to put their husband in the garbage can sometimes.

[Abigail Rowe]

Let me think of something that maybe costs a little for me.

[Cass]

Here's the things that I'm thinking of.

[Abigail Rowe]

Like. Okay, tell me.

[Cass]

I. I think people should, a 100 get rid of clothes that don't fit them or make them feel good, because that's a nasty, toxic bully. Okay, so what are we doing?

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah, and I get so much pushback because I. I have a. I have a clothing decluttering method. So I use F, I, V, E. So it's. F is for fits my body. And like, every part of your body, not just. Not too small, not too big, but, like, are the sleeves weird? Is the bust, you know, like people, you know. So F is for fits body. I is for intact. So, like, is it. Is it pilling? Is it stained? Is it ripped? Is it itchy? V is for versatile, which, like, not every item in your closet has to be versatile. But ideally, you have a pair of pants that matches more than one shirt. Right? Like, you could wear it to more than one of it. Obviously, you're going to have your really nice dress or, you know, whatever. But most of the stuff hopefully goes with other things. And then also you can wear it to dress it up, dress it down, whatever. And then E is. Is expresses your style. So I think that would probably be mine, because I think a lot of people, if yours is F fits my body, like, let's get rid of that stuff that doesn't fit. Mine would be, let's get rid of and donate, of course. But, like, let's get rid of those clothes that just don't feel like you. You're always passing it up. You keep it in your closet. You're like, well, I could wear this to this, but you never do it, and there's nothing wrong with it. So you feel like, well, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm not going to donate it. But what's wrong with it is having all of that stuff in your house is causing decision fatigue, visual overstimulation, you know, just overwhelm in general. So I think mine would be, well, and even just more than clothes, stuff that is perfectly fine, you just don't use it. And I think. But those are my favorite things to donate. Like, I'm. I love thinking about someone who's gonna have that. I know people think, oh, I can only get rid of, like, junk or stuff. That's. And I'm like, no, that's. I think it's. I think it's great to donate something that just isn't you anymore.

[Cass]

It's so, so good. When I. When I was starting out my journey, I was really poor, really poor. And as a mom, I remember we shopped not at Walmart, we shopped at Goodwill. Right. Thrift stores. And when you walk through and you find something really good, especially when you're struggling financially. Oh, yeah. It. It's not only makes your whole day, it makes your whole week. It can make your whole year.

[Abigail Rowe]

Absolutely.

[Cass]

And so I always think of this, like, I think of like a single mom who's struggling when I'm donating something, as I'm kind of gifting it to her, but instead of finding that person, because I don't have time for that, I just take it to the thrift store. But that's the story I really tell myself to make letting go a lot easier is I, like, visualize the person.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah, definitely thinking about who. It's. It's an end for you, but it's a beginning for someone else. And kind of that you can reflect on either, you know, if you, if you used it, it was a part of your life. You could reflect on the memories and, and how you used it and what it gave you, or if you. If you bought it thinking you were going to use it and then you didn't. You can reflect on that as a lesson. Right. Of. Of hopefully what not to do in the future. But you can reflect, and then you can also think, you know, do some forward thinking and, and, and envision its life with someone who's really excited to have it, for sure.

[Cass]

What I find so fascinating, when I'm helping clients declutter, especially ones who really, really, really struggle to let go. And, and we've seen this in hoarding situations too. People are like, I can't let go of anything. But if you say to them, my neighbor just had a fire and doesn't have any blankets, they're like, take every blanket I own. So. Right. It isn't that they're having a hard time letting go. It's that they want to make sure that it's going someplace good. And when we can visualize that, even donating to a thrift store, visualizing that person who. It's. This stuff is going to change their life. It does help. It helps. It makes letting go easier. Let's talk about Wheel of Decluttering because that is genius.

[Abigail Rowe]

It's in the closet right over there. But I can't show you because I don't. I don't want you to know what's coming up unless you want to do one right now. Like unless you want me to go grab it. We could do it right now. But sometimes. Let me be. Let me be honest. Okay, so for those of you who are listening that don't know what Wheel of Decluttering, it's kind of. It's. It's a little bit of what I'm known for. It's a series that we do. We do it. I can give you the whole, the whole spiel if you want it. Don't look at the comments yet. This is Wheel of Decluttering. We play every Wednesday, Sunday. You have until the wheel stops spinning to decide if you are in or not. But if you do choose to play and the wheel ends on something that you need to declutter, you only have the next 24 hours to make at least a little bit of progress on it. Use this. Add this video to your story for a built in timer. I batch film. So sometimes, like every month, I have to remind myself what the intro is. But yeah, I have a little wheel and I each little section, it's like a little one of those little game wheels. And each little section has something that you could potentially declutter. And so I spin and then it lands on something. And usually I'm honest about what it lands on, but sometimes I see something that I'm like, I don't want to declutter that and I move it and I don't tell anybody. And I'm totally cheating. Totally. But yeah. So we play every Wednesday and Sunday and they're like little. Most of them are bite sized.

[Cass]

And no husband. There's no husband on the Wheel of Decluttering?

[Abigail Rowe]

No. It might be like your ex's phone number. Like those are like, that's something that I might put on there. You know what I mean? Because that's like, if it landed on that, there would be people that needed to get rid of it. It's like, baby, let's you Know, and so, yeah, so it's good. It lands on something. And sometimes I'm even shocked because again, like, I'll do, You know, I batch film, so I'll do like five or six at a time. But I mean, there. I think there's 16 spaces, so sometimes they're on there for months. So, like, I forget how brutal I was when I was coming up with them. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And they're always like, don't act surprised. Like, you made it. And I'm like, okay, but I was harsh a couple months ago when I put that on the wheel because it's. I'm like, I don't want to do this.

[Cass]

Oh, my God, I need an example of harshness. Give me an example of harshness.

[Abigail Rowe]

I mean, of course people were. I think I did yarn once. Oh, the craft girlies? Yeah, the one. Oh, my gosh, it got like 2 million views. It was. It was like little jars or like little bags. And I was like, baby, you're not going to use the. Like, you've. You've had jar. Like, you're just not. And that's. And that's what's so funny, because I genuinely. I mean, of course it's not scripted, as in, like, I don't know what's going to. What it's going to land on. I usually don't even look and, like, remind myself what the sections are because I give my very unhinged comments at the end of it, and I like for that to be like. Like, I don't ever refilm and sometimes I have to stop myself and I'll be like, okay, we're just gonna end the video here. And my. My followers know me well enough to know what my thoughts are, because I love.

[Cass]

I love this. Like, I wouldn't say unhinged. I think it's real truth. And this is the thing, and I am so guilty of this. All the things I want to actually say, I lock up real tight because they're not always kind. And instead I like, do the PC tip, tiptoe around version. But is it helpful?

[Abigail Rowe]

Abigail, love that for you. I do. I am the mayor of Yap Town. So, like, there's no, like, there's no filter on this one. Yeah, it's very, very rare for me to, like, not post what I originally said, but sometimes, I don't know, I just feel like on almost every single one, half of the comments are like, well. And I want to be really clear, too. I gave them a chance to Scroll. I always say, like, last chance to scroll. 3, 2, 1. So you know what, babe? You stuck around. Don't. And they still get mad at me. And I'm like, you chose to play. You know what I mean? But half of the. On almost any given Wheel of Decluttering video, half of the comments are like, oh, my gosh, this is so great. I never would have thought of this. Like, I love this. And then the other half is like, I feel personally attacked. And I'm like, listen, but. But you needed it.

[Cass]

I need you to add. I need you to add to the wheel because I watch you on Instagram random organizing containers. You know. No, no, they. They need to go. It needs to go on the wheel. But I would cheat if that was. And I would move it.

[Abigail Rowe]

My people have. And yours do too, I'm sure. And you do containers for their containers.

[Cass]

We have containers. We. I have. Yeah, I have containers that are clutter waiting for someday I might. When I get organized or organized that I want to be able to shop the loose containers. I'm gonna tell you, every house I've ever decluttered and organized, they had boxes and bins and piles of organizing containers. It's ironic, isn't it? It's adding to the clutter. It's a big contributor. So maybe we'll just. We're not even spinning the wheel. We're just telling today while they're listening. That's what they picked. Sorry. Oh, can we spin the wheel?

[Abigail Rowe]

Should I go do it?

[Cass]

Yes. I love this.

[Abigail Rowe]

I can get out of this chair. Hold on. Okay.

[Cass]

Okay. She has brought out the Wheel of Decluttering. Let's give it a roll. Let's make. They chose to listen to this podcast. They have no choice. They. They're doing the thing.

[Abigail Rowe]

And I'll say, if you want to, is there's probably some type of like, skip forward 15 seconds. So if you want to click that and not play, here's your chance.

[Cass]

You better not skip forward.

[Abigail Rowe]

And I'll be. And I'll be really honest. I'll tell you exactly what it landed on. Okay, we're on. Is it gonna go to yellow? We're on yellow. Travel size toiletries. Those shampoo bottles that you stole from that hotel in 2018, girlfriend. Come on now. Come on now.

[Cass]

And the samples from Sephora there.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah, they're going, yeah, we got.

[Cass]

You're not all the little crap.

[Abigail Rowe]

Or I would probably like. If I was doing this as a real video, I would probably say. Or like, put a post it on it you know, two weeks maybe.

[Cass]

You're being too nice.

[Abigail Rowe]

Well, I'm just, I mean, so, So I always say, because we landed on it though.

[Cass]

That is the rule.

[Abigail Rowe]

But listen, originally the intro to Wheel of Decluttering was, you have until the end of the day to get rid of it. Like, it was just decluttering. You have until the end of the day to get rid of it. And then people will be like, it's 11pm and I'm like, you have enough time. But then some of the things were too big and some of them, you know, they were. It, it was. So then I switched it to 24 hours and I also changed to just a little bit of progress because something like a craft room or whatever, I try not to do too big of. I try to do bite sized things. But some people are like, this is going to take.

[Cass]

And I mean, if it lands on yarn and you're like, you're getting rid of all your. Yeah, I see. You got a little soft. You got a little nice.

[Abigail Rowe]

I did. I. I got a review once for the course. It's my favorite testimonial so far. It was. And I put it on my site. My mom was like, why are you putting this? This, this makes you sound weird. And I was like, well, mom, these are my people. The testimonial was, abigail is the type of person who holds your hand while smacking you across the face. And I was like, I'm obsessed with that. I put it's in like big bold letters on my course sales page. And I was like, you know what? My people are my people. Some people need that, some people don't. And they want a little tougher, they want a little softer. I'm. I try to play to the middle.

[Cass]

I. I'm here for it. I'm, I'm. I want to be a little tougher sometimes. I let a little tough out. But I'm still, I'm still too nice. Okay, I'm still too nice. Niceness isn't gonna.

[Abigail Rowe]

I think on the inside you're a little bit of a teddy bear.

[Cass]

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but also, that's not helpful. You know, we need some, we need some real honesty here. You mentioned earlier that you, like, you got rid of that hospital bracelet right away, before the nostalgia had time to leak in. Because the longer we hold on to something human nature, the more we care about it. Whether we care about it or not or the more special it feels. So let's talk about your strategy for kind of, like, stopping it before it starts.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah, I'm. I'm just a big fan of, like, curation and condensing, and so when. When there's some type of. Whether it's a big event or just a simple, like, daily, you know, like I said, if I go to the park and I take 10 pictures of my toddler that night, I'm going through and, like, saving the best one. Because I know in six months from now, if I look at the 10 pictures, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, he's grown so much, you know, I'm gonna want to keep 10 of them, and then you're gonna have thousands and thousands, and you're not gonna actually be able to go through them. So I think curating as you go and being really intentional about what you bring into your home, whether it's with. With, you know, things that kind. You kind of happen upon. Like a hospital bracelet. You know, we didn't keep the hospital bracelet, but we kept the blanket, and I. I. I put a little. Put it in a frame, and, like, it's above their bed. So I kind of, like, you know, used it as decor, so it's functional. But we're honoring it. But I. I didn't need to keep, you know, the. The little name plate, and I didn't need to keep the bracelet, and I didn't need to keep the going home outfit special. You know, we. We've used that going home outfit a hundred times, and it's got, you know, vomit and blowout and, like, baby stuff. Like, it's not. It's got stains now. And that's okay. We used it. And so, yeah, I think curating and condensing those types of things. And then also, of course, being intentional about what you buy.

[Cass]

Yes. What do you do when you're like me and you're super impulsive? You see my Amazon order, you'd be like, what is wrong with you, Cass?

[Abigail Rowe]

So I use the deliberation station, you little nerd. I.

[Cass]

You have a chart, right?

[Abigail Rowe]

I said say less. I do. So would you like to go through it? Is there a purchase that you're considering?

[Cass]

Is there something that you. There's like, this massager. Not a naughty massager. A legit massager that also has, like, heat and things, because I'm old and my. My bones hurt. But also I have a bumper massager, which I never use, so I'm like. You know what I'm saying? But I've added it to the car start. It's in there right now as we speak.

[Abigail Rowe]

But you haven't decided yet whether or not to buy it. Well, guess what? We can help. So have you thought about it for at least two weeks?

[Cass]

No.

[Abigail Rowe]

Does it solve a problem that you've genuinely noticed?

[Cass]

I got to make some pains? Yes.

[Abigail Rowe]

Do you already own something similar, you said? Yes.

[Cass]

Yes, I do.

[Abigail Rowe]

Is it worth giving up progress towards your next financial goal? So when you think about what you're working towards saving money for, would you rather have the X amount of dollars for that goal or would you rather have the massager?

[Cass]

I'd rather have the money. Oh, Lord.

[Abigail Rowe]

Where will it be in five years?

[Cass]

It will be donated. It will be donated.

[Abigail Rowe]

Okay. Do you have a place in mind to put it.

[Cass]

Under the bed, question mark?

[Abigail Rowe]

Is that, like, a reason?

[Cass]

Sure.

[Abigail Rowe]

We can say yes. Okay.

[Cass]

Yeah.

[Abigail Rowe]

How long will you have to work in order to pay for it? Not very long or a significant amount of time?

[Cass]

Not very long.

[Abigail Rowe]

Very long. Okay. Can you be happy and productive without it?

[Cass]

Yes.

[Abigail Rowe]

What is the cost of it per use? So, like, worth your money or not worth your money? So, like, if something's a hundred dollars but you use it 10 times, it's like $10 every time you use it, Abigail.

[Cass]

I haven't tried it to know how effective it is.

[Abigail Rowe]

It could be worth gold. Old best. Right? Best reasonable guess.

[Cass]

It could change my life. It could make me feel 20 again.

[Abigail Rowe]

It could.

[Cass]

I don't know. This is. So that's hard.

[Abigail Rowe]

Well, but you said that you have the other one and you're not really using it.

[Cass]

I've used it one time. One singular time.

[Abigail Rowe]

Okay. Would you. Would you say that that one was worth the money cost per use? Okay. So not with the money here. Does it support your priorities?

[Cass]

I can make it support my priorities. No. So my priority is obviously to be healthy and fit. And I'm like, well, I would work out, but I don't want to feel pain after. But if I had this new snazzy thing, then I wouldn't feel pain. I'm not going to buy it, Abigail. I don't need to go through your checklist. I know that this is ridiculous, but I see this is helpful, though.

[Abigail Rowe]

This is helpful. So we go through, you know, I mean, we go through it and then at the end, you can kind of add up your bubbles and it will lead you towards buying or not buying. And it's also. It's not like, quantitative either. Like, sometimes people will be like. But you circled more. Like the other day, I did one for I. I live now on the third floor in an apartment. And I, I did one for those, like, huge grocery bag, like with the reinforced bottom right. And I actually circled more bubbles on the. The buy side because I do think it, like, it genuinely solves a problem. It's annoying to have to go up and down with. With two little kids, the groceries, like, it was a genuine problem. But the question that stopped me was, is this the best way for you to obtain it? And I was like, getting a three pack on Amazon for $20 is not the best way. I can ask my buy Nothing group. Someone will have one for me. I could get an IKEA bag. I could get a cheaper one from Aldi. And so, so, like the bubbles leading me to buying it told me like, okay, this is something that in general you should have. It would be good for you, productive, like, but it's maybe not worth this amount of money getting it this way. And so it's just a good little critical thing. I'm just a critical thinker. And I think, I think the analytical and the logistical part of my brain, for some people, that can be intimidating and like, feel like too much. But then the pre K teacher in me is like, no, no, we're gonna make it super simplified. And so I think that is, you know, I'm totally tooting my own horn right now. But, like, that's a talent of mine. Like, bringing something that is kind of overwhelming to people and presenting it in a way that's not childish but very simplified and easy to follow. Follow. So I have the deliberation station for purchases and then I have the. It's the exact same concept, but it's the think tank for whether or not I should keep something. So it's. Both of them are 14 questions you go through. You circle your answers and it. And it helps you get to thinking.

[Cass]

It is. This is the thing. So I'm already like going through this. I'm catching like that emotional like, ooh. But the logical, which. That part of my brain, she's dusty. Okay. I'm dusting her off there. Like, well, if I was going to use it, I'd use a thing they already have that's similar, but I'm not using it. So logically, I'm not going to use this other thing too. But that didn't play into my mind until I went through your questions. So good. You little genius. You little nerd. Let's talk quick before I let you go about your organizing style, because your analytical, logical brain tells me that you're a B or a Cricket, you are, you're a person who thinks you're making a face like you're not.

[Abigail Rowe]

I don't, I don't remember because I, I did the, I know which choices I made, but I don't remember the bug name. So I like hidden. I don't like to see so much and I remember where things are. So it, that's not a barrier for me. So I do like hidden. I like things to be especially I think part of it too again is like now with children, everything has to be behind and, and kittens. I have two kittens and two toddler. Well a toddler and an infant. So yeah, everything's behind closed doors and probably like child locked as well. So definitely hidden. And then, But I think because things are kind of a zoo in my house. I like the macro.

[Cass]

You do.

[Abigail Rowe]

So you're used to be a little more micro and I think I had time to do that and I think I was, I cared a little more about it being super detailed. But now I'm like, like an open basket for my onesies for my kiddo. Done.

[Cass]

I feel like maybe you, you, you got a lot of cricket in you too. But logically you're like, but I just, I have kids and I'm busy and I can't live that way. So you're defaulting to a ladybug.

[Abigail Rowe]

I'm not, I don't think. I, I, I used to be very hidden in micro, which is what bug.

[Cass]

A cricket.

[Abigail Rowe]

A cricket. Yeah. So I used to be a cricket for sure. But I, I, I don't think that I would be able to maintain all of those systems now with how much is going on. So yeah, I think it, I think it makes more sense. The ladybug is, is making a little more sense.

[Cass]

I love this because this is actually what I say to crickets. I don't want to say that ladybugs are the best organizing style because there's no best. But I, I do say to like be a little more ladybug in especially those high traffic areas or ones that, that you share because who has time to fold their underwear? I mean on your joy and product.

[Abigail Rowe]

Two kids.

[Cass]

No. And your joy. Productivity. Let's get real, man.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah. Is that, how much joy are you getting closer to your goal? Is that really bringing you joy? For most people, probably not.

[Cass]

Same girl. Same.

[Abigail Rowe]

But isn't that funny though because I do like segment so like I, I have like underwear and then like real bras and then like nursing bras and then sports bras. So like what?

[Cass]

That's the most cricketiest thing I ever heard.

[Abigail Rowe]

What are you talking about?

[Cass]

What are you talk. Rewind.

[Abigail Rowe]

Maybe I need to go back. Yeah, maybe I am.

[Cass]

You're so. You're so logical and anal that, I mean, you're sorting your bras into categories. That is the most crookedest. Doesn't matter. No, you've sorted. You've taken one category, which is bra, and you somehow made five categories.

[Abigail Rowe]

I'm a lady.

[Cass]

I think you're just might be. I. I want to. I think your expectation of what a cricket is maybe is a little.

[Abigail Rowe]

With my kids stuff, I don't fold toddler and infant clothing at all.

[Cass]

But you have their onesies together and then their pants together.

[Abigail Rowe]

Shirt shirts. Yeah. So I have a bin for, like, shirts or like, my little one as in onesies, and then I have a bin for. But like, shorts and pants are together, but it's like bottoms, and then I have pajamas.

[Cass]

Okay, would you separate, like, dress clothes from everyday clothes? Yeah. You're making categories.

[Abigail Rowe]

That's in a different one. That's in, like, swims, that's in special. So that's with, like, swimsuits and, like. Yeah.

[Cass]

I know, I know. I mean, your spices might not be in alphabetical order, but it sounds like you're. You're liking cat.

[Abigail Rowe]

Oh, and now that you're mentioning the spices I have. Okay, so, like, my, like, daily use spices are on the counter, and then I have. That I have. Yeah, okay, maybe I'm a cricket. I might be.

[Cass]

You're just like a. You're just not the high insane expectations of what you think you're. Because you're such a cricket.

[Abigail Rowe]

It.

[Cass]

You think it needs to be nutso. Butso.

[Abigail Rowe]

I used to have, like, drawer organizers and, like, for every little. For every little thing. And things were folded. Like, my T shirts were folded, and now they're, like, in a bin, but they are still like. And okay, so, like, even for. So like. So for T shirts. So, like, it's tank tops and then it's T shirts, and then it's like big comfy T shirts, because those are different to me. Me. And then it's long sleeve shirts.

[Cass]

You made a lot. You. You took one category and made, like, a lot of categories. Yes, but I don't fold them.

[Abigail Rowe]

So I was like, I'm a ladybug. I don't think I'm a ladybug. I think I'm a cricket that doesn't fold her clothes.

[Cass]

Yeah, I think you're a cricket. That doesn't Fold her clothes.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah. Yeah, but that's cool. That sounds like a children's book. The cricket who didn't fold her clothes. We could collab on that later if you want.

[Cass]

We. We totally. We totally could. But you know what I. I love of your cricket brain is what is so awesome about you? Honestly, it's your analytical, logical brain. You're literally taking something that's so emotional, and you're mapping it out in a way that you cannot argue with. Right. You're.

[Abigail Rowe]

You're making it logical easier for me. It's funny because the. The two things that make it easy, so them being in those categories makes it easy for me because sometimes I just want a tank top, and I don't want to have to sort through because I've got a baby crying, and I've got a toddler who's probably getting into something he's not supposed to, and I've got kittens fighting, and I'm like, I just want the tank top because my kids spit up on me, and I just need to change my shirt real quick. And I know exactly where it's at.

[Cass]

Look at this. Look at this random cord I just chucked in here.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah.

[Cass]

And it's just, like, a drawer full of hodgepodge of crazy. Are you gonna take the time to, like, put this with other cords or maybe even make it neat? Are you just gonna chuck it in the drawer? That's random.

[Abigail Rowe]

Okay, so I have two junk drawers. The first junk drawer is for stuff that I know I'm gonna need, but I don't really have a place for it. And then the second one is for things that I don't have a place for, but I use them a lot or I know I'm gonna use them quickly. So, like, in my. In my, like, best, in my good juncture, I sort of. My junk drawer.

[Cass]

Yeah. Yeah. You even make junk into multiple categories. Score is. You know what? You're just. You're the most crickety cricket, but you're also, like, a cool you. You've made it accessible, and you made it easy. You're a cool cricket, and I'm. I just. I. I appreciate you, and I actually love the way your brain works, and I wish my brain worked like that a little bit more because it's really nice to see another way of coming at the exact same thing that I deal with every single day, and that is from coming of a place of, like, reason, logic, and a little bit of a slap across. Across the face. So, yeah, you're winning it. Life Abigail.

[Abigail Rowe]

That's my. That should be my tag time. Tagline, Reason, logic, and a smack across the face. So could be my second book.

[Cass]

Excellent. Well, thank you so much. Please let my listeners know how they can follow you and how they can check out those amazing charts that you created.

[Abigail Rowe]

Yeah, of course. So I am at downsize upgrade on TikTok and also on Instagram and then Facebook. Is Facebook.com Abigail@like@ spelled out [e-mail] and then my website is just downsizeupgrade.com so good.

[Cass]

I'm gonna put a links to everything down below. Thank you again for joining me. This was so fun.

[Abigail Rowe]

Thank you so much for having me. This was. This, this gave a lot of clarity because I would have for sure said that I was a ladybug. And I'm not. I'm not. And that's okay.

[Cass]

Okay, that's okay. Because you're mastering organizing like a cricket. And that's what it's all about.

[Abigail Rowe]

You need to go look at your Pinterest boards for Cricut, especially because I'm in a new place now. I just moved here, so I, I need to. I need to go look at the Pinterest. Cricket. Yeah, Cricket Pinterest boards. And get some inspiration.

[Cass]

Or also know that ladybug's okay too. You know that you're a cricket in your heart and soul, but sometimes you.

[Abigail Rowe]

Ladybug, because maybe there can be a couple of. Of couple of closets or something that are. Yeah, a little more macro.

[Cass]

I love this so much. Okay, thank you so much and thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you guys next time.

[Abigail Rowe]

Thank you guys.

[Cass]

I want to take a quick second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Skylight. Skylight Calendar is what I use as my command center now. Not only does it combine all of my digital, like Google calendars into one place, but my kids calendars are on there too. I keep it on my kitchen counter and when I'm not using it as a calendar, it's. It's a beautiful digital photo frame. But besides just a calendar, we've also added our menu planning to there, our chore lists, our tasks, all of our notes. No more sticky notes, no more little reminders. It's all in one place on a beautiful frame on my kitchen counter. Absolutely recommend this. If you have a busy household like I do, this is a lifesaver. If you want to give Skylight a try and you are not thrilled with it, within the first 120 days, you can return it for a full, full refund. So right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendar by going to myskylight.com clutterbug I absolutely love this talk with Abigail. Oh, man, she's so cool. I wish I would have thought of the wheel of decluttering. That decluttering wheel is genius, actually. All the things you can make your own decluttering wheel. And if you have ADHD like me, we'll forget what we put on it and it'll be like a surprise every time. Time. So fun, so awesome. She's great. I'm going to put down in the show notes below where you can follow her. Now it's time for my favorite part of the podcast, which is talk to Cass. And first up, we're going to have a question from Jessica.

[Jessica]

Hi, Cass. My name is Jessica. I'm 24 years old, but even at that young age, I have a husband and two kids under the age of five. And I just first want to say that you've been such a tremendous help in my life since I discovered you about one, maybe two years ago. But in the last year, we moved into a new home and some of the systems that I had put into place fell apart because, I mean, I guess that's just how it goes when you move into a new home. But I wanted to ask you, how can I make progress in my home as a mom with two young kids? And I'm also watching my two nephews on a pretty regular basis. And so it feels like every time I am making progress on one thing, I turn my back around and they've made a whole new mess on the other side of the house. And so I never actually make any progress. And so what advice would you have for me or someone like me in this kind of situation? Thank you so much for all you do. And I love listening to every, listening to every single podcast because you are.

[Abigail Rowe]

Just.

[Jessica]

Such an amazing motivator for me. So thank you so much.

[Abigail Rowe]

Bye.

[Cass]

Thank you. Jessica, you're a baby, 24, and you're already, like, so responsible. I'm. I'm proud of you for that. Can I just say.

[Abigail Rowe]

Hmm?

[Cass]

I don't even know what I was doing at 24, but it wasn't being awesome, I can tell you that. Here's my advice. And you're not gonna like it, but this is the reality. The best way to get ahead and not slide back is to declutter and have less because you can tidy and organize and your little wrecking crews will come in and just, like, make it a mess again. And then you're stuck on this cycle of always cleaning up for it to just get messy again. Anytime you remove something from your home, there's no sliding back. Like, that's a permanent that will make your life easier. But I get it. It's like, maybe I've already decluttered and it's still. I'm still having issues. You can declutter without having to remove it from your home forever by doing toy rotation. And this is something I definitely recommend with small toddlers because, listen, kids get overwhelmed just like adults do with the amount of stuff. And in fact, I ran a daycare and what I noticed was when I limited the amount of toys they had to play with, they were actually more creative and more engaged because they weren't overstimulated. And so I ran this toy rotation program which, like, I had all these sorted toy bins and then they could pick two and then I would swap them out with new two. So it always felt kind of like Christmas morning. They were getting new toys and had new things to play with, but it was never overwhelming for them or me to pick up. So whether you're putting the bins up high, I would definitely recommend like a cube shelving system or you're putting some in a closet and you're just bringing out certain toys to play with. It seems like, oh, what a mean mom. I'm hiding half their toys. But I promise you, it's the opposite. They're going to be having way more fun being much more creative, and they're going to be excited every time you swap out and bring new toys. So they're always really engaged. Just give it a try. I promise it works. And also, you're awesome.

[Abigail Rowe]

Awesome.

[Cass]

Next we'll hear from Anonymous.

[Anonymous]

Hi, Cass. I just had a quick question for you. So I notice I tend to give away things that I later look for. Or I'm like, oh, why did I give that away? It just seems to feel right at the time. And then I'm like, oh, man, I really should have held on to that because now I have a use for it. You talk a lot about getting rid of things that you really don't need and you're not going to regret it. But I have the opposite problem of getting rid of things and then later on down the road being like, probably should have held on to that. So how do you make that decision more clear for future cas? Or, you know, how do you. How do you know that you're not going to need it later on down the road.

[Cass]

Thanks. Oh, Anonymous. This is honestly the toughest question I, I've ever gotten. Like, I, I never feel stumped, but I feel really stumped and my gut wants to answer it in a way that I don't want to say. But I'm going to say this. Sometimes you actually can become addicted to decluttering and you can take it too far because it feels good and you feel like this is the solution, like having less, having less, having less. And your house feels overwhelmed and the first step is decluttering. But if that's what you're always doing. Yeah, it sounds like maybe you are going too far and saying this because 99% of the population needs to go further. Okay, this is why I don't want to say this, but it is possible you've reached a point where you've hit your clutter threshold and now you're just, instead of going to like the organization, which is the next step, you're kind of stuck in the decluttering. Your clutter threshold is the amount of stuff that you can maintain easily. And everybody has a different clutter threshold. Like some people can remember and keep track of a huge quantity of things and be able to put them away and you know, yeah, just maintain them. Whereas other people, it's out of sight, out of mind, or it's just too much to handle because they have a busy life or they have ADHD or they have chronic illness. So everybody has a different threshold of the amount of stuff in their home that they can manage without a lot of effort. Right. And your clutter threshold is that point where you can basically clean up a room in five minutes or less. That's kind of how you know you've hit your clutter threshold. So things are getting messy and you're like, it must be that I have too much stuff. But that's not always the case. It could be that you haven't set up the right systems and you haven't established the proper tidy up habits to make it kind of this unconscious habit habit that you're just putting things away. So I would actually encourage you to pause decluttering and I would encourage you to pause decluttering for six months and just focus on setting up organizing based on at the end of the day or the end of the week, what your hotspots are. So take a look at what you're naturally piling and how can you create homes for that nearby and how can you really focus on streamlining and kind of get addicted maybe to the organizing part and not rely on just decluttering. That being said, for all my other friends who are listening to this is.

[Abigail Rowe]

Oh man.

[Cass]

Yeah, until you start constantly regretting letting go of things on a regular basis, you haven't hit this point yet. So keep on decluttering. Definitely. You can go too far though. So man, I wish you wouldn't have asked this Anonymous, because now everyone listening is going to be like, see, I don't have to declutter. I just have to get organized. Which is usually never the case. So yeah, I can guess I would need more information about what type of things and how long after are you having this regret. But I guess part of me feels like I, I know for myself I got addicted to decluttering and I went too far. So I, I'm perhaps being biased, assuming that that's the issue. Now we have a story from Jess.

[Jess]

Hi cast, this is Jess from Texas. I just wanted to let you know that I was finishing up your previous podcast, maybe a couple back who knows adhd, right? Anyway, and this wonderful girl from overseas was talking about undoing her pantry and getting it all sorted and then ended up getting a job and like just.

[Abigail Rowe]

Being on that motivation train. Toot, toot, let's go.

[Jess]

So one of my mantras is the toot, toot, let's go. Because I used to work in special education and a lot of my kids were non verbal and so we would go toot, toot. And that just meant let's move on.

[Abigail Rowe]

To the next thing.

[Jess]

Let's get some energy going. And it was really fun. So right now I am in an ADHD hyperdrive. You can probably hear it in my hyper words right now. But whenever you were like, hey, next segment, let's do dinosaurs, I was like, oh crap, I probably have a dinosaur in my pantry. So you, if you hear this shift, I am now standing in my pantry, which is a tiny little walk in thing. It's got like 50,000 shelves. It's so busy in here. And I just went to the back corner to find dinosaurs for you. So let's do this in real time. I have a bucket from Walmart, like a little trash bucket. And I just found all of my missing yoga socks. Socks and my towels from whenever I hyper cleaned before. We call it a tornado clean before grandma came over. So I've got, let's see, 1, 2, 3, 4 dish towels and they're like the really nice ones that I probably should have left out for family, but here we are. And then 1, 2, 3 sets full sets of yoga socks.

[Abigail Rowe]

Socks.

[Jess]

So I guess I need a place to put my yoga socks and my dirty towels in the kitchen. That's not the far corner in a trash can. Thank you.

[Abigail Rowe]

Okay, bye.

[Cass]

Just. That was. That was just about the most ADHD talk to cast I've ever heard. I love it. Just for clarification, your yoga socks are in the pantry in the kitchen. Yeah. And you're like, I need to find another spot for the yoga socks in the kitchen. Kitchen, maybe not. Maybe the kitchen towels could be in the kitchen. Maybe the socks could be by your door or in your gym bag that you take to go do yoga or wherever you do yoga. That's probably where the socks should be. Not in the kitchen. I understand why you're thinking that. Because ADHD brains were weird. But probably not. All right, let's have a question from Samantha.

[Unknown Listener 1]

Hey, Cass. So I have been listening to a lot of your podcasts and I've been watching your YouTube videos for at least two years. And recently I have come to the realization that I am indeed a ladybug, even though I honestly thought I was a cricket, But I most certainly am not. And that is evidenced by my filing cabinet and my filing system. And it's terrible. I never want to put things away. And because it's just so detailed. How do you do your filing cabinet? Maybe you've covered this already, but, oh, please cover it again. How do you do your filing cabinet? Because, like, I'm thinking maybe I hang some stuff on the walls to have, like, inboxes for pending tasks and.

[Cass]

I.

[Unknown Listener 1]

Don'T know, but I don't know how to do the filing cabinet and still make it fairly easy to find what I'm looking for or to send my husband to find what we're looking for when it's necessary. Anyway, thank you so much for everything you do. You are making a world of difference in my home and I look forward to hearing your answers. Answer.

[Cass]

Oh, Samantha, I love this question so much because, like, there is a big part of me that just wants to have a bonfire with every filing cabinet in the world. Just burn them all because they're terrible. But I will say this. Having one file drawer for long term important stuff is totally cool. So maybe your contracts, birth certificates, those would probably be in a fire proof safe. Just saying. But there are files that we want to keep forever, but every paid bill that you have, like the credit card bills and the electricity and the gas, none of those should ever, ever, never, never go in a filing cabinet. We have to put Those in more like a short term system. And I just have a big old basket that I chuck them in. And then at tax time, I go through and I take anything out. And if something has to be used for taxes, I take, take that to the accountant and I use it for taxes. But 99% of the other stuff, I'm like, why did I keep this? I didn't even need to. And I shred it. And that way I only have to file or deal with paperwork one day a year. So what I would totally recommend for you is to make sure that you never mix the important long term stuff with the like everyday papers. And then one day a year, you go through the paper that you've had throughout the entire year and you make a decision on it. Is it worthy of the filing drawer or is it something I need to use for taxes or can it just be shredded? But I totally get the anxiety of like, you know what I mean? You pay a bill, you're like, what if? And you want to hold onto it. Yeah. Then I call it like a short term. It's a basket where I toss everything and then I only deal with it one time a year. And last but not least, we have a question from Emma.

[Emma]

Hi, Cass. My name is Emma and I live in Washington state. Date I've been listening to your podcast for about a year now and I just love it. I think you have such a calming voice. And I look forward to cleaning now because I always have you in my ears whenever I'm cleaning or working on projects around the house. So thank you for that. I just have a question. My husband and I have very different organizing styles. I'm a ladybug. He is a butterfly, so he is very visual, loves to see everything, and I'm the opposite. But we've done a pretty good job with our house, keeping things tidy. And, you know, he has his space, I have mine, so that's going pretty well. But my main question is his mother passed away about two years ago and he had also previously lost his father when he was a teenager. So we are dealing with, with all of his mom's stuff. She was a borderline hoarder. Kept everything after his dad passed away, never went through anything. So we have boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff. And like I said, it's been a couple of years now. Most of the stuff is in a storage unit and the rest of it is in our garage. We have gone through some of it and we have, have made some progress, but it is just a really, really Big task. We've moved a couple of times. So we are about to move the stuff in the storage unit to the third new storage unit, which is obviously just a huge pain, taking up a lot of time. I feel like we are just stuff shuffling, and I don't see an end in sight. I'm really trying to help him with going through the stuff a little bit at a time, but it is difficult. He is very sentimental. He wants to go through every box, and he wants to look at and touch every single item to make sure nothing important is thrown away, which I understand. But it is a very painstakingly slow process. And there's a lot of items that he just feels sentimental about. And even though he knows knows he will not use them, he cannot bring himself to get rid of them. So his solution for now is just to keep the storage unit. That way it's, you know, not in the house, but he can still hold on to all this sentimental stuff. I personally think that storage units are a bit of a waste because I think that if you're not using this stuff, then you don't need it. But I do understand the sentimental aspect for him, so I guess I'm just looking for any advice on how I can encourage him through this process.

[Abigail Rowe]

How.

[Emma]

We can go through the rest of this stuff and hopefully get rid of some more of it. And also just your thoughts on the storage unit thing, whether or not it's something that's a good idea for us at this time, or if we should really try to get rid of that.

[Jessica]

That.

[Emma]

Thank you so much.

[Cass]

Oh, Emma, this is tough. Let me start by saying a storage unit is terrible idea. I'm so sorry. But the truth is, it's wasting your money and it's just delaying the inevitable. Because someday, even 50 years from now, someone's going to have to deal with that stuff. We can't keep it indefinitely. And you're not honoring anyone's memory by storing stuff somewhere that you're not enjoying. That you're not, like, preserving the memories, and you're not, you know, passing on a legacy. A box in a bin in a storage locker is not the way you honor a past loved one. So I will start by saying that. Which I know sounds harsh, but that's just the reality. How we do honor the memory. Matt Paxton says this best is by creating a legacy list. This idea that Matt Paxton had, especially people who have a really hard time letting go of. Of past loved ones and things like that, it's actually honoring the most special things by Grabbing a notebook and writing down the memories by taking pictures and capturing the memories in a way that you can pass it down. Because all of those memories your husband has, if something was to happen to your husband, no one else would know why those things are special. Just the act of writing it down and creating a memory bin where you put the best of the best things along with the notebook that has the stories attached to it. As soon as he does that, he's going to feel that peace of mind, that anxiety release, because I think, especially as a butterfly, he's so afraid that he's going to forget. Butterflies are really visual. It's out of sight, out of mind. And he feels like. I mean, I'm speaking for him, but this is what I hear a lot of my clients say, is if the stuff is gone, I'll forget them. But the act of writing it down in a journal, in a memory book, taking the photos, capturing those actual memories forever, means you no longer need the physical stuff you'll never forget because you have it. So whether he records it on his phone as notes and memos or a video camera and stores that somewhere, then the things can be passed on to other people to, you know, enjoy and cherish and actually use. I can promise you that his parents would not want him to feel burdened by those belongings in a storage locker. So I think you pick a weekend and you grab a notebook, you get a memory bin so he has a safe place to put the really special things, and you just go box by box. And I promise you, once he starts giving a place of honor in the memory bin and writing down the stories, it'll be easier with the each box to let things go because he's keeping the truly important things. I hope you're really proud of yourself. Whatever you accomplished today, I am definitely proud of you. We have three months left in 2025. Okay? So, yeah, I want to push you. I want to push you out of your comfort zone. I want to push you to get more done than you normally do, because I want you to make real progress and accomplish a huge goal.

[Abigail Rowe]

Goal.

[Cass]

We can do this. And every single week, I'll be with you, pushing you, and together, you are going to make yourself freaking proud, and you're going to do amazing things in 2025. And coming up, it's not till November, but it's Coming UP is my 300th episode of the podcast, so I would love if you go to clutterbug.com talktocast and you record a message about what you get done and what you work on. Usually when you listen to the podcast podcast. Share that and hopefully I can share your story in the 300th podcast episode. 300 podcast? That's nuts. It's nuts. Obutzo. I just love hanging out with you each and every week and I'll see you next week when we tackle something else and make our homes amazing.