← Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast
Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast
Keep Your Home Clean & Tidy 24/7 with this ONE SECRET! | Clutterbug Podcast #320
01:09:17
Loading summary
Transcript157 lines
- [00:00]
A
I quadrupled my income in six months by doing one thing, and that's listening to my next guest. Today is probably the coolest day ever because we are talking to one of my heroes, Gretchen Rubin. Gretchen Rubin has changed my life multiple times, starting with the third self help book I ever read, which is the Happiness Project. And then the Four Tendencies is probably the reason I have a successful business today, honestly, and something that I use every single day in my business to help you get motivated and meet expectations. And it all came from Gretchen Rubin's brain. Not only are we going to talk to her about the four tendencies, but today she's also going to change my life in other ways yet again. So buckle up. Today you're going to learn about the quiz for the four tendencies. If you already know your style, awesome. If you don't, I want you to take the quiz is at the end of this podcast and let me know in the comments below what you are. But just listening. I want to know if any of these four tendencies that we're going to talk about speaks to you. So while you're listening to Gretchen Rubin, explain her four tendencies and talk about all the little nuances. See if one just feels like, yeah, that's me. And just like always, you are not allowed to just passively watch or listen. Do something right now to make yourself proud. Let's spend time together and push the needle forward. Maybe you want to grab a trash bag and find 26 things to go. Maybe you finally want to deal with the pile on the counter or get the dishes done or make your bed. Every small thing that you complete today puts you closer to the home that you deserve. And here's my promise to you right now. Listening to this podcast. Understanding your tendency will change your home, but it will also change your life. It may save your life, your marriage and other, other relationships too. And I'm not saying that lightly. Honestly, this is the most transformational thing aside from your Clutterbug style, that you can learn about yourself. Hello, Gretchen. Welcome to the Clutterbug podcast.
- [02:13]
B
Hello. I'm so happy to be talking to you.
- [02:17]
A
You, I mean, I don't want to fangirl on you. We have spoken before, but you are definitely a hero of mine. When it's true. When I. When I first started my journey, I had never read a self help book before. I was drowning in clutter. I sucked at all things Gretchen.
- [02:34]
B
Okay?
- [02:34]
A
I was like a disaster in all areas. And I read the Happiness Project and this was the third self help book I had Ever read. And it changed my life because I was just starting my journey. And you talked a lot about the home and getting this under control. And it inspired me because you also changed the language around clutter. I highlighted it here. I've been talking about it for so many years. But you talked about, like, nostalgic clutter and freebie clutter. You gave different names to something that otherwise was just mess.
- [03:10]
B
Yeah, freebie clutter. That's. I can't resist freebie clutter. Ask me how many tote bags I have.
- [03:18]
A
I. I can't resist the clutter. I call it fantasy clutter. You call it aspirational clutter. So, you know, this cream's gonna fix my face, right? I always think, this. This is gonna be the one. But what I love about this is that I needed to have the different language. I needed to have sort of the patterns shown to me to think about the solution differently. And you did the same thing with the four tendencies. So for my listeners who have never heard of the four tendencies which will change their lives, would you kind of break it down? And how did you even come up with this?
- [03:54]
B
I am kind of a happiness bully. That's what my sister calls me. And so I was quizzing a friend of mine about her habits and her happiness, and she said, the weird thing about me is I know I'm happier when I exercise. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team, and I never missed track practice, so why can't I go running now? And I thought, well, why? I mean, it's the same person. It's the same behavior. At one time, it was effortless. Now she can't do it. And I could think of many possible reasons, but I'm like, what's going on? And I thought of other patterns that I had observed in people. Like, people who would say something like, I don't believe in New Year's resolutions. I'll do something when it makes sense for me, but I won't wait for January 1st. January 1st is an arbitrary date, right? And so it's like, that's interesting that that never really bothered me. But, like, there's this group of people who say almost exactly the same thing. So what is going on? I thought about this for so long, and then finally it was sitting right here. And all of a sudden, the word expectation kind of jumped out. It was like it jumped out of the screen to me. And I realized this is the core. It's how we respond to expectations. Okay, so now I'm going to Explain the four tendencies. There are upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. And it has to do with how you respond to expectations. And we all. This sounds so boring. I know. It sounds so dry, but it gets juicy. Yeah, Cass, you know, it gets juicy, so stay with us. We all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, like a work deadline, and inner expectations, like, I want to get my clutter under control. And so depending on whether we meet or resist outer and inner expectations, that's what makes us an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel. So upholders are people who readily meet outer and inner expectations. So they meet the work deadline. They keep a New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them. But their expectations for themselves are just as important. These are people who think discipline is my freedom. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do it if they think it makes sense.
- [06:00]
A
Sense.
- [06:00]
B
They need reasons, justification, rationale. They love efficiency. They love to customize. They want the best system. So they're making everything an inner expectation. If it makes sense to them, they'll do it, no problem. If it doesn't make sense to them, they'll push back. So their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest category for both men and women. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are the people that say, why is it that I keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself? The. The key thing there is to realize that for an obliger to meet even an inner expectation, they must have a form of outer accountability. If you want to read more, join a book group. If you want to exercise more, work out with a friend who's going to be annoyed if you don't show up. There's a million ways to create outer accountability. And if you are an obliger, that is what you need. Obligers are great leaders, team members, family friend. They go the extra mile, but they need that outer accountability. So their motto is, you can count on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. And this is the smallest group. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And Typically they don't tell themselves what to do. Like, they don't say, I'm going to sign up for a 10am spin class on Saturday because they think I don't know what I want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that you're expecting me to show up is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me and neither can I. So these are the four.
- [07:44]
A
I love it so much. This changed my life because finding out I was an obliger, I worked from home, I was trying to run my own business, and I was like, I need accountability. I hired someone to come to my home every day and I quadrupled my business size within a few months.
- [08:04]
B
See, that is so fascinating, right? Because you might say to yourself, oh, what is a little bit of self insight do? Like, that's not going to make any real difference. And then here it is. It's like so concrete for you.
- [08:17]
A
It is. And I use it like if I want to work out, I know I have to schedule either a personal trainer, I'll be so mad if I, like, I, I can't cancel on them, or have a friend, I tie everything, even something really silly like I want to, I don't know, clean the house today. I will say to my son, if I get the house done by six, we can go and like get ice cream after at Dairy Queen. And so my success is tied at all times. Gretchen, I use this. This is my secret. And I use this every day. So I'm so passionate about it. Because also in Clutterbug, helping other people try to get a handle on their home, I see why they also need to know their tendency. Not only is it important to understand their brain when it comes to their natural organizing style, but if you can't make yourself do it in the first place and then you can't stick with maintaining it, it's all for nothing.
- [09:13]
B
Right? Well, and then, Cass, like our systems remind me of each other because it's like, I think a lot of times people think, well, what works for you should work for me. And if it doesn't work for me, there's something wrong with me. What's wrong with me? Why can't I do what other people, people can do so easily? Or it makes us judgmental and we're like, well, if I can do it, why can't you do it? Like, what's your problem? Like, I don't understand what the issue is. Instead of just saying like, you know, some things work for some people, some Work for other people. If this approach doesn't work for me, let me learn from that and try something different. I feel like so often people get consumed with self blame or blaming others when in fact it's just like there's no right way, there's no wrong way. It's only the fit. And the key thing is what is the fit? Which is what I love about clutterbug too. Because it's like once you see your category, you're like, oh, okay, now everything makes sense to me in like a new fresh way. I just see, it just illuminates myself.
- [10:10]
A
I feel like it answers some of the same questions because I get questions a lot from people who say, okay, that's great. I know my style, but I'm not sure my family members style and how do I get them to do it like me? And so with the four tendencies, I. Now listen, I know you don't like it when I call it manipulation, but I use it to manipulate, entice people to meet expectations. What's the right word? But I communicate effectively.
- [10:39]
B
Communicate effectively, Speak their language. How can I speak your language? So that you and I reach an aim together. That sounds way better than manipulate. Yeah, okay.
- [10:51]
A
Like my daughter, my daughter's 19. She is a questioner. So I can't say clean your room, but if I say if you clean your room, you're going to feel a lot better, you're going to sleep better, you're going to feel more focused and like give her actual data to support.
- [11:05]
B
Yeah.
- [11:06]
A
The reasoning behind it, she will do it. My husband is a rebel. I cannot say, hey, could you wash the dishes for me? It's not that he's like a horrible person, but something about that makes him like, ain't no way I'm doing the dishes now. But if I present it like a problem, as you know, if I say I'm feeling really stressed and I have so many things to do, I have to do the dishes and the laundry and I have to work later. Can you help me solve a solution? He will readily say, oh, I'll take care of this or that, because it's his solving what's happening here.
- [11:41]
B
Gretchen, there's so many things wrapped up in that example. Okay, first of all, you're an obliger and your husband is a rebel. That is a very typical pattern. As I said, obliger is the biggest tendency, rebel is the smallest tendency. Obligers are like the typo. Fittingly, they match up the most easily with the other three tendencies. But when you see a rebel paired up either in romance, like with you, or at work, like in a founding pair. If one person is a rebel, almost always the other person is an obliger. So that you guys are like a classic pairing. And here's the thing. Sometimes people think that rebels are inconsiderate or selfish or, you know, but they can be enormously considerate, civic minded, selfless, but they're doing it because that's the kind of person they are. That is what they choose to do. And so what you're saying to your husband is, are you the kind of thoughtful partner who wants to lighten my load? Would you choose to do something out of love for me? Now I'm an upholder. I'm the kind that readily meets outer and inner expectations. And I have to say, this sort of baffles me because I'm kind of like, look, we're married. We got to get this done. I'm doing this. You do that. Like what? Like, I don't. You don't choose. Just do it. You know? But rebel, they want that choice. They want that freedom, they want that self expression. And the thing about a rebel is the more you ask or tell them to do something, you do ignite the spirit of resistance. And rebels will say to me, like, I might be. I might be walking towards the dishwasher, getting ready to just, without a word, unload the dishwasher. But if you say to me, hey, will you unload the dishwasher? I immediately want to be like, no, I don't want to do that. It's just this spirit of resistance that can get just activated in them. So if you. It's really helpful to know that whether you're a rebel or someone else around you is a rebel, because you can kind of inadvertently just like get in their way and get in your own way by just sort of casually saying these things that really do not land well with them.
- [13:41]
A
It's true. I. I don't want to say you saved my marriage, but honestly, you may have, because there was. I felt. I felt resentful and I feel like he almost felt like I was nagging. And it was this very strange dynamic. But when I stepped back and just realized his brain works differently and changed the way I communicate, everything changed. And so I say manipulation, that's not nice. But, um, it. It's helpful. It matters. That's why I'm just. I'm so passionate about the four tendencies because I literally use this every day. But I also use it when working with clients. It's one of the first things I think about. I diagnose their organizing style. I try to diagnose all their family members organizing style. And then I think, okay, great. How can I get them to actually let go? How can I get them to declutter? How can I get them to be excited about this and how can I get them to follow through? But I don't always talk about this, hardly ever actually on my videos. And I know that it's the follow through, it's the meeting, the expectation. It's not only setting up an organizing system or decluttering, but keeping up on housework every day where I've been failing people and why I'm excited to have you, because that's the part that we need you for. We all need you. You gotta hold up this mirror to people so they can understand themselves and not trick themselves. But like I hired someone to come to my house to help me because I understand how my brain works. Everyone needs that kind of understanding and self awareness. So when, let's, let's like reframe the four tendencies for a second when it comes to housework. If you are a rebel, which surprisingly, Gretchen, a lot of people, when I put in the comments, they will say that they're a rebel and you said it's like 10% or something. But I see in my community people who really struggle with clutter, a high portion of them are actually rebels. Why do you think that is?
- [15:42]
B
Well, see, this is so fascinating, right? Because probably what it is is that rebels are like, they don't want to live in a cluttered environment, right? But then they try to stick to these systems and they rebel against them. And so then they fail. So they're coming to you because they're like, okay, well maybe the clutterbug system is the one that's going to work for me. But then they're like, but it's, but then I can't maintain it. Like I do it and then I don't want to do it. What's interesting, and maybe you've seen this in your, in what you do is I find a lot of times people have the energy for like the big, like the big effort. Like you know, you can sort of, there's like a special energy and optimism and the kind of excitement and novelty about like doing something but then keeping it going. Doing that maintenance requires a different muscle. And so a lot of times people don't realize that. They think, oh, the hard part, the only part I need to think about is like this first Burst. And they don't understand. Like, no, this is. That is just one milestone in a lifetime of milestones if you want to keep your house orderly or you want to exercise consistently or whatever it is. And so I bet there are a lot of rebels who are like, okay, I'm all in. I'm going to do this. And then, okay, but it's not. It's not sticking. It's not working. Or maybe they read about it and they're like, yeah, I don't know. That doesn't sound like it would work for me. I want to do it my own way. And then they're like, okay, so what do I do if I don't want to do it your way? And you're like, okay, well, this is. This is the way that we're talking about, you know, so rebels. Because rebels can often frustrate other people because they resist outer and inner expectations, but they. They frustrate themselves, too. And many rebels say to me, when I'm trying to get myself to do something, I resist. So how do. What do I do? Because they're frustrated.
- [17:23]
A
So for my listeners who are listening right now, Gretchen is going to solve all of our problems with her words of wisdom. But let's talk about. There's a lot of expectations that are tied to home management. There's expectations when you were looking at a cluttered space, like, I've got to declutter and I gotta. Where does this all go? And I have to keep things, but what should I. And it's so much pressure and responsibility and expectations. So not only do we need to know how we manage things, your clutterbug style, how we naturally put things away and how we naturally manage our belongings, but we need to understand how we naturally manage our expectations, too. So an upholder that's pretty easy to maintain the expectations of decluttering and organizing. They basically just need a list, right, Gretchen? Like, if I just gave you a checklist, you as an upholder would follow it. Correct.
- [18:18]
B
But I think that. I mean, even to step back, I think the people that. I think the. One of the reasons people are feeling a weight of expectations is they're not living up to whatever it is that they're trying to achieve. Like, that's why it feels like a weight, because it's like, well, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Do you think?
- [18:34]
A
Yeah, I also think people's expectations maybe are a little bit too high, but that's a whole other conversation that we can talk about later.
- [18:40]
B
I think, well, and one thing also because you're an obliger, tell me if you experience this is. I think sometimes obligers in particular lock into. This is what they expect, this is what they want. This is what I have to do. Where no one says you have to, no one is expecting it. Actually no one who is coming through your front door is thinking that or expecting that, but somehow in your mind and expectation has locked in. And so I think sometimes the thing to do is to just sort of step is just to literally say, what, what am I expecting? Because sometimes people have the vague idea of like, I just want to have like a well ordered home. And it's like, okay, but that's like an infinite. Like you could take that so so far. So what would that look like? And I think this is where Clutterbug gets into sort of like detailed categories and broad categories because people have like sort of different levels of how much that, how much like comfort they, they feel in that. But I think a lot of times the weight of expectations is really because. Well, I just, I'm not, I'm. I'm letting myself down and I'm letting kind of imaginary others down and, and so like to really focus in on. Okay, like, well, what exactly is that?
- [19:54]
A
Yeah, I know for myself, I, I put big expectations because I grew up in a home where my mom was such a clean freak and everything. It was like. And I internalized those expectations. Like it had to be done that way for me too. And I really beat myself up. That I couldn't do it was this, it wasn't healthy. So even as an obliger, I had to step back and say like, what's really my definition of what done looks like? And that's when I realized my mom's super detailed. I am not. And why was I trying to put my papers in alphabetical order? Why was I putting my spices? Why was I color coordinating everything? Like that didn't work for me. And so when I shifted that and relaxed that and took this macro approach, yeah, I was like, oh, so much weight was lifted off my shoulders. But it was still really hard to get started. It really was. And, and I, I did have to tie it to other people and I did that through a YouTube channel. Actually, looking back, you know, I was showing up for my community and making a video and, and growing a business. So I tied it to something external for myself, which is how I found the motivation. But I know a lot of people who are listening right now are like, I know what I'm supposed to do. I just can't make myself do it.
- [21:12]
B
Yes. Right.
- [21:14]
A
And so.
- [21:15]
B
And that's how tendencies can be. Can plug in. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [21:19]
A
Right. So if you are an upholder, I feel like that one, you probably aren't listening to the Clutterbug podcast because you probably have your crap together,
- [21:28]
B
even if holders get clutter. But probably, like, once they have a system, they will be pretty good at keeping the system. Or it's like if you say, I'm going to put this on the calendar at this day or every Sunday night, I'm going to take an hour to do XYZ Busy. That's the kind of thing that comes naturally to them. Scheduling, monitoring, checklists, that those kinds of things work very well for upholders and they find them satisfying. That's the thing is other people are like, oh, you're, you're, you're constrained, you're, you're chained, you're limited. But for an upholder, that really feels freeing because it's like, okay, this discipline gives, allows me to give me what I want. So a lot of times I think probably an upholder, even like a very cluttered upholder, if they use your system and then they kind of put it on the calendar, then they could maintain it pretty easily compared to the other tendencies.
- [22:19]
A
Okay, so let's talk about a questioner.
- [22:21]
B
A questioner is the second largest group. So if you're looking at a community or people taking a course, or you're trying to think about how to communicate with a lot of people at one time, you can think like, like probably most of these people are going to be obligers. And questioners, like rebels and upholders are like the kind of fringe personalities. I remember when I came up with this frame framework, I went to my husband, I was like, you know what? I part of this extreme personality type. And he was like, you think? Because he was not surprised. But so, questioner, you mentioned your questioner daughter and you did exactly. What is the thing for questioners? Why am I asking you to do this? Why am I suggesting this system? What is my reason? Why does this make sense? And even the customization, like, questioners tend to love to customize. It's like, hey, you know, research really shows that if you're in an orderly environment, probably you're going to find it easier to rest and you're going to spend less time looking for things. And people spend a bonkers amount of times just looking for misplaced objects. And, you know, you're going to feel more Creative and you're going to, you know, blah, blah, blah. Here's the research to show it. But, but let's talk about what works for you. Morning or night, weekends, weeknight. Do you want to sit at a desk or do you like to sit, sit on your bed? If you like to sit on your bed, do you want to do something different with your desk so that you have more storage space? Like, let's really get into the reasons and the customization so that it works for you. Because the more that some, a questioner feels like this is the most efficient and most justified system for me, it makes the most sense, then they get on board. They have to have that confidence.
- [24:01]
A
Yeah, I love this. And I can recognize the questioners in my comments all the time in my chat.
- [24:07]
B
Okay, what do they say?
- [24:08]
A
So a questioner generally locks on to the four styles more than anybody else. First of all, because I feel like they're looking to make sense of the mess they're looking for. Like, okay, well why doesn't this work for me? And I'm like, well, your brain is more detailed or you're more visual. Then instantly like, like they're like, oh, that makes so much sense. So they're like, yes. And then they'll say, can I be more than one style? Yeah, can I be a style here at work and different at home? And. And then I'm like, you're a questioner and I know, yeah, are you seeing the same thing?
- [24:45]
B
There's always a follow up question. Okay? Because first of all, questioners are always like, but there's such a wide variety of mankind, how could you possibly limit it to four types? And you're like, okay, just look around. There's four types. I mean, and then they do want to say they're multiple. And then in the context of the four tendencies, the reason why they say they're more than one is they'll say something to me like, well, look, if somebody asked me to do something and it doesn't make any sense, well then I'm a rebel. I refuse to do it. If something makes sense to me, I'll do it easily, like an upholder. And I'm like, right, because you're saying, why should I listen to you? And that is questioner. And thinking that you're more than one is a tell. Because they're like, well, at work it makes sense, but at home it doesn't make sense or what? Or the opposite.
- [25:29]
A
However.
- [25:30]
B
However they're thinking about it. Yeah, that is a big. It's funny that you see that too? Yeah, I do. I can, I can pick it out
- [25:36]
A
in the comments and I can also pick out a clutterbug style quite often in the comments where at least the detailed and the non detailed because the detailed brain, the analytical, very logical brain will ask those questions like, well, I like to sort these things in so many categories. But I'm not saying it's over 10, is it detailed over 10 or is it less than? Is it less than. And I'm like, well, you're detailed. The fact that you're analyzing and trying to.
- [26:02]
B
But what people don't understand too though is sometimes like it works both ways. People might say like, well, all questioners are detailed. Well, no, because a questioner might be broad because they might say like well it's not efficient for me to spend all my time like alphabetizing my spaces so I'm in a broad category that's more efficient. Whereas the detailed person was like the most efficient way is to have it very detailed. Nobody's right or wrong, it's just a different way of thinking about it. But you have to like think about it in that question or way in order for it to make sense to them.
- [26:33]
A
Also just for the questioners who are here, if you are a questioner, it doesn't mean you're also a bee or a cricket or doesn't mean you're also. There's so many different like personality types and ways to really have that self awareness. But they stack, they don't, they don't blend. So we'll just, we're just putting that out there for you questioners who are questioning.
- [26:56]
B
Right. Or to put it another way, you could be a questioner cricket, you could be a questioner bee, you could be a questioner ladybug, you could be a questioner butterfly. Butterfly, yes. Yeah, right. Because they don't correspond. They're not like this one matches that one. They are stacking. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
- [27:12]
A
Yes. Okay, so an obliger. Let's think about if you could. Well, I already know because I am and I use all the hacks to get stuff done. But if someone listening is, is not familiar, how can they use their tendency to help them not only get started but with that follow through of those expectations of maintaining a home.
- [27:34]
B
Yeah, you always want to think about like what is the outer accountability for this? So like let's say you're in a family. You could say to yourself things like, I want to keep my house orderly because it'll keep me calmer. And then I can show up for my family in like a more tender, attentive, less like rattled way. I want to keep an orderly home because I want my children to feel like they can invite their friends over and feel comfortable here. I want to feel like a friend could drop by at any moment and I'll hold the door open with welcome. And I'm not going to be like wishing that they weren't there because everything is messy. I'm going to think of my duty to my future self where if we come to the end of the year and I still have this mess in the basement, I'm so going to be so annoyed with myself. I'm going to think of my duty to be a role model for other people. And I want my children to see like I live in this kind of home so that like when they go to college and they have college roommates, they know what it's like to like keep things in order. I want my children to be able to find what they need so that we don't have these frantic, unpleasant mornings of everybody like running around looking for a Spanish textbook. You know, there's so many ways to do it. Oh, and then like your children can be your policemen too. Like sometimes I think you sort of alluded to it, like if I do this, then we get the ice cream, right? So like, if I don't hold to this, you're going to be disappointed. So you can also say to your kids things like I said that I was going to clean out the basement. That's really important for me. And listen, if I haven't done it by the end of the weekend, like, you kids don't have to do your homework and they'll be like, they will watch you, you know. So there's all kinds of ways to activate outer accountability. There's so many imaginative ways to activate outer accountability. But the key thing is you have to see that you need it. Because what I find, I'm curious. What you find is a lot of times people feel like it's kind of weak or it's kind of like training wheels that you shouldn't need to rely on. I shouldn't need outer accountability. Like I should just automatically want to keep my house orderly. Like, of course I do. Why wouldn't I? Everybody wants that. Why would I need to like invite a friend over at least once a week in order to keep my house picked up? Why is it that I can't keep everything from getting dumped in the guest room unless I tell my sister in law that she should come stay overnight Once a month. Like you're a big group. All advisors are like that. There is nothing wrong with you.
- [30:03]
A
That's just how your brain works.
- [30:04]
B
That's just how your brain works. And you don't need to change it, just use it. It is a tool to use.
- [30:11]
A
I love this so much and I see this in my business all the time. So here's the thing. Three times a year we have an all day live declutter and I'm always like, I'm going to see you there you guys. And I want to see in the comments and see you posting your pictures and people will show up those three days a year. We have thousands and thousands. And all the comments say I decluttered truckloads and truckloads of stuff and yet I couldn't any other time of the year when why can I do it now? And I'm like, because you're an obliger, that's why. Because it's the accountability. And so body doubling, even virtual body doubling is so powerful for an obliger because you feel accountable to that other person even if you aren't in the
- [30:56]
B
same room a thousand percent. It's such a brilliant idea, it's such a brilliant way because, because this is helping people do what they want. But they need that accountability. And it's so, so smart the way you're saying like I'll see you in the comments, show your pictures because that is saying somebody, somebody's checking, I've got eyes on me. I and I remember I was talking to like a very high end, like fitness like you know, exercise place. And they said that they made this subtle change in the way that they asked their trainers to speak to a class is instead of saying I'll be here next week, they say I'll see you next week, meaning I'm waiting to see you. And so it's not like I'm just hanging out, it's like I'm looking for you to show up. And so these very, and this is the thing that I think is so fascinating is like very subtle things can be enormously significant. And something like doing like this group clutter, you might be like, oh well is this just some gimmick? And you're like, no, it is not. Because this is the thing that will unlock it for somebody. There's so much power in that.
- [32:12]
A
Yeah. And it, it is. I mean it comes from understanding my tendency but understanding other people too and be able to make those subtle shifts that you talked about. I can help so many more people.
- [32:23]
B
Yes.
- [32:23]
A
And they can help themselves. Honestly, it's so. Okay, we're going to finish with the rebel, because this is the toughest that I just. Living with a rebel, I really do. I struggle still. I found little workarounds, but I would love to hear from you, especially how to meet their own expectations as a rebel. So there is a high percentage of clutterbug listeners who are rebels, even though it is a rare thing. And. Yeah, bestow your wisdom on them.
- [32:54]
B
Okay. Yeah, you really do want to know if somebody's a rebel because that's yourself or other people, because they're the most different from the other three. And a lot of times the strategies and tools that work for the other three don't work for rebels. So it's very helpful to know when a person is a rebel. So there's a couple different strategies that you can employ for yourself or for somebody else. One is an appeal to identity. So identity is an incredibly high value to rebels. They want to put themselves out into the world. They want to live up to themselves in the world. And so if something is tied to an identity, actions flow from that because that's what you do. So if, like, if you're an artist, then you're going to write every day, because what does an artist do? An artist creates. And so you could say if somebody. If you could communicate to a reveler, they could communicate to themselves. Like, I am a gracious host. I set a beautiful table. I have the best food and wine. I put together the most interesting conversations. I invite people into my beautiful home. That is my identity. So am I scrambling to, like, pick things up because I'm supposed to or because you told me to or because a friend is coming over? No, it is because I am a beautiful host. I like to have an elegant home. I care about beauty. I love order. These are things that go to identity. Action follows from identity. And this is why, if you start nagging or reminding or even praising, you can get in the way of that. Because they're doing it because that's what they want. They're doing because that's what they choose. So an appeal to identity. But you could also have an identity like, I'm a thoughtful partner. I know it drives you bonkers, but because I am a thoughtful partner, I will do my part. Not because I have to, not because I said I would, but because I choose to do it out of love for you. Then there's information, consequences, choice. You tell people the information they need, you give them the consequences of their action, or Inaction. And then you just let. And then you just let things happen. And you don't save and you don't rescue. You just, like, let consequences fall. So you could say something like, well, you know, when you don't go through the mail and the bills don't get paid, then, I don't know, our cable gets shut off. And then it's just like, okay, then you got to let that happen. If that person's supposed to pay the cable bill and they haven't gone through the mail and it's stacked up on the kitchen, it's like, like, okay, I guess we're just not gonna have cable for a while because the bill didn't get paid. Or it's something like, okay, I want you to clean out the basement. Now you could say something like, you know, if you clean out the basement before the weekend, then when all of the cousins are over playing, they can all play in the basement and be out of the way of the adults because they can just, like, do all their stuff down in the basement.
- [35:46]
A
That's good. You know, I've just had all these light bulb moments because my husband, I think part of his identity is as a problem solver. Oh, you know, that's a very useful one.
- [35:58]
B
Okay. Yes.
- [36:00]
A
So he's an engineer, and he's always looking at systems and he's always up. He loves being a project manager. It was his favorite part of any job he's ever had. And so I thought I was manipulating him because I was. I thought all rebels wanted to solve a problem, but now I'm realizing that's his. So I always approach something as, like, a problem to be solved. And then he goes gung ho. And he's super motivated to do the thing because his identity. This is so good, Gretchen.
- [36:33]
B
Yes.
- [36:33]
A
Is as a problem solver. So if you can identify that core identity of a rebel. That's the. That's the fire, that's the spark.
- [36:43]
B
Yes. Well, and they might have multiple identities, but let's say somebody is an animal lover. Then you could just, you know, say something like, oh, you know, and if they don't get their food, I guess they're just going to be hungry. I mean, now that maybe you wouldn't want to actually let your dog get hungry. There's, like, certain things where you can't just let them go. If you're going to do this with a rubble, you have to pick something where, like, you could stand the consequences of them not following through. But I love this idea of an identity as a Problem. And I also love the idea that you were thinking that it is inherent in the idea of a rebel. Because so often we start thinking like, well, all rebels are like this. Even the idea that, like, all upholders are like. Sometimes people think, like, all upholders are like A plus students. And it's like, no, I've met slacker upholders. They have very low expectations for themselves. But what expectations they have, they meet, you know, But I'm like, okay, well, they don't. They don't expect much and they don't do much.
- [37:32]
A
So it's still the.
- [37:34]
B
Yeah, but they're still an upholder because once they decide they want to do it, they can do it. And they're kind of like, well, why can't other people do it? You know? Which is sort of an assignment of an upholder when you're like, well, what's everybody else's problem? I think for you, in terms of, like, having a rebel spouse, a problem solver identity is an amazing identity because, yeah, it's pretty great. It's so useful for you because all you just say, like, like, well, I'm having an issue. Is there. Is there a system to solve this? Yeah, totally.
- [38:02]
A
And I have to. I just reframe it. Like now. It's like a. I'm not. I'm doing it without even thinking. I'm like, oh, man, this needs to be done. I'm like, hey, Joe, do you have any ideas of how this could be done? And then he's like, I'll take care of it. And I'm like, cool. Because.
- [38:15]
B
Yeah, but the thing is, if you. If you say I was like, can you do this?
- [38:21]
A
It's. And it's not that he doesn't want to. It's almost like that's the roadblock. He's not even realizing it, but. And he. He probably even wants to do the thing. He just doesn't ever want to be told or feel like he's being made to do something.
- [38:37]
B
This.
- [38:38]
A
I have to be very careful.
- [38:39]
B
This is the key thing. It's always from freedom. It's always from choice. But here's another thing that sometimes can be activated. They, like, they often will respond to a challenge or being told that they can't do something because that activates the I'll show you or watch me. So somebody was saying that with her husband, she'll often say something like, oh, well, I guess you don't have time to work out before dinner. And he'll be like, of course I do. And then I'll go work out. Or like, oh, I guess there's no, like, there's no way you could blah, blah, blah, like watch me. Or you know, or yeah, or somebody said she was trying to get her husband to quit smoking. He was a rebel. And like everybody was telling him to do it, quit, quit, quit. And of course he was just resisting, resisting, resisting. And then his 18 year old son said, oh, look dad, an old guy like you, they've got you chained. You're so addicted to nicotine, there's no way you could give it up. And this father was like, you think, watch me. And he like never picked up a cigarette again. So again, sometimes people feel like, is this manipulation? It's really just about communicating with a person in a way that they're not just like you say, like they just, they want to, they want to. And like you've said something that's just like, like just set their teeth on edge. They just like now they can't do it. It's like, oh gosh, don't say that. You know, if we're aware of this, then we can just be so much more considerate in our communications.
- [40:03]
A
And I'm just, my brain's going a mile a minute because I'm thinking about all these things about Joe. I know he read this book like the wealthy barber and rich dad, poor dad, and the way that they framed credit and debt as like someone controlling you, like the credit card. He was like, I will never have debt again. Like he, you know, and, and I, you're. I think this is all coming from his rebel tendency. He doesn't want, he never wanted to work for a boss. He had to be an entrepreneur. Like he really has this, yes, you can't control me, don't ever put me in a box type of like fundamental core, almost value.
- [40:41]
B
But that, but that's.
- [40:42]
A
So be positive or negative.
- [40:46]
B
And this is true of all the tendencies. The upsides are the downsides. The strengths are tied to the weaknesses. So like sometimes people are of upholder. They're like, well, upholders are great. They meet outer and inner expectations. And I'm like, yeah, but we're really rigid because it's really hard for us to be flexible once we get our mind set on something. Like, we just like sometimes we meet expectations where it doesn't make any sense to do it because we just like, we don't even stop to say, should I do this? Like, my husband's a questioner and I will often say like, like, should I do this? And he'll Be like, why would you do that? You know what I mean? There's power in all of them. But the problem is you need to understand, like, well, what are the downsides? So that you can kind of figure out how to work with it so you don't experience the downsides. You only get the benefit of the upsides. Or if you're dealing with somebody in there, you don't. You don't do it in the way that's right for you because it might be very wrong for them. Like, this is something that you often see with obligers and rebels. Rebels, they really dislike the idea of somebody holding them accountable. Right. But obligers need somebody to hold them accountable. And so they often don't understand. They're like, you know, or like, as an upholder, I'd say to an obliger, I don't need to be your babysitter. Do your own work in your own way. Like, you know, just come back to me when you get it done. And an obliger's like, that is not helpful. Yeah, why would I talk? Why would I. That. That's not helpful. So by understanding, we have. We have self compassion, and then we also have more compassion for others. And so I love that. The idea that, like, you can communicate with your husband in a way that it's like it gives him the satisfaction of living up to his identity and showing his prowess and problem solving instead of constantly making him fight the impulse to resist doing ordinary tasks.
- [42:23]
A
And I think it just dawned on me why I think I have such a high percentage of rebels in my core clutterbug community. Because my tagline, the thing I'm always saying is, you're not met, Bessie. You organize differently. You are an organized person. Your brain just needs a different system.
- [42:43]
B
So now I identity appeals to a
- [42:48]
A
rebel in a way that I didn't see before you said this, and maybe
- [42:54]
B
even the identity of, I am a ladybug, so I'm gonna do my ladybug things.
- [42:59]
A
Yes, but it's not because you're telling me to, but because this is how my brain works. So it takes something that perhaps the rebel has felt like, bad about in the past, not being able to manage their home or manage systems in a different way. And now they have. They see it as a strength and they see it as something to be proud of, and it's reframing their. Their like, now they want to do it and they're feeling really excited about something that otherwise, like, before they weren't.
- [43:26]
B
But maybe the all Day video thing doesn't work for them because they're like, I don't want to show up. And at 10am on Saturday, like, why would I want to limit myself that way? But you could do something like, it's the boot camp challenge. For those of you who are the hardcore ladybugs, today is the challenge. And go off and do it and come back to us and tell us what you did. And then they're like, whoa, I'm going to do it. Because they like that challenge. But it's like, in your own way, in your own time, if it appeals to you, if this is something that's fun for you, this is something you might consider. That's the way to speak to rebels. Because then, then they're like, you know, and then it's like, oh, tell us, like, what like innovative creative systems did you come up with? We can all learn from each other, you know? Oh, my gosh, I can't wait to see what people come up with. They blow my mind with like, they're, they're just like their solutions that I would never. That would never have occurred to me. People are like, yes, I'm amazing. I've come. Even Cass has never thought of this. I can't wait to go in the comments, say what I figured out. Right? Because that's so rebel. Like, I'm gonna show you what I can do. My power, my choice, my freedom, my identity. Very, very rebel.
- [44:34]
A
Oh, it's so good. Okay, I hope you listening have some idea of your organizing style and the family members. Not that we're manipulating. We're changing the way we communicate.
- [44:45]
B
Yes.
- [44:47]
A
I am so curious about two other things. I'm so sorry I keep asking you, picking your brain, but you said that obligers and rebels pair well. Are there other tendencies that tend to pair up? I gotta take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Cozy Earth. Years ago, I switched to Cozy Earth bedding. And now I gotta say, I'm kind of a sheet snob. Jo and I will stay in a fancy hotel and I'll be like, these sheets are just not the same as home because it feels like luxury. They are so soft. They are temperature regulating because I get hot, hot sometimes, but never with my cozy ear. But also, they make beautiful pajamas. And last Mother's Day, I gifted my mom a pair from Cozy Earth. She still raves about them. So she's getting another pair this Mother's Day too. Think about your mom. Maybe you want to treat her to cozy Earth pajamas or gorgeous incredible luxury Sheets without the luxury prices. And right now, just for my listeners, you can save up to 20% off. So go to Cozy Earth and use the promo code Clutterbug to save today. And if you get a survey afterwards, let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Clutterbug podcast. Are there other tendencies that tend to
- [46:04]
B
pair up Obliger Rebel is the one that you see most frequently and consistently. And obligers do pair up the most easily with all the other three. I will say that often a pairing that does not work very well is a polder rubber. They just see the world in a different way. They work. They have, you know, different preferences and how they work and how they live. And so often that does come with a lot of, like, conflict, whether you have like an upholder boss and a rebel, you know, person who works for them, or a rebel boss and an upholder who works for the rebel, or like an upholder parent and a rebel child or a rebel parent and an upholder child, that that 10 tends to be harder. But the other ones are. Aren't as. As predictable as Obliger as Rebel Obliger.
- [46:53]
A
And if you know your tendency, just like if you are a butterfly, you could have B tendencies. You could be like a little bit. I know that you can kind of slant in your tendency too. So I see with my husband, sometimes he's a little qu. He's Rebel, but he slants a little questioner. And then I'm not sure about mine. I thought I was slanting a little rebel, but I think it's because I question everything. Maybe I'm actually a questioner. I'm like, I don't got to do it that way just because everybody says to. Is that a rebel in me or is that more of a question?
- [47:25]
B
I think that's more rebel. So if you imagine the way to think of the tendencies is four overlocking, interlocking circles. So it's. It's like a Venn diagram. So each of the tendencies overlap with two other tendencies. So, like, you're an Obliger, so you overlap on one side with Upholder because you both readily meet outer expectations. And then on the other side, you overlap with Rebel because you both resist inner expectations. So depending on whether you sort of tip one way or the other, that does color your tendency. So two people could be obligers, but they might look very different depending on whether they tip Upholder or tip Rebel. If it sounds like to me like you're sort of like, well, you can't tell me how to do it, I'm going to find my own way. That is kind of more of like a rebel flavor. And so maybe you're an upholder who tips, an obliger who tips to rebel. I will say, though, that obligers who tip to rebel are more likely to suffer from Obliger rebellion, which is when they meet. Meet meet expectations. And then suddenly they snap and say, this I won't do, and they'll quit a job or end a friendship or just say, I'm not going to answer your emails for like, two weeks, because they feel sort of ignored or taken advantage of. Now, even obligers who tip to upholder can have that, but obligers who tip to rebel can often have that more. Does this ring? Does this strike a chord with you?
- [48:45]
A
This is me. So I. Oh, this is the most therapy. I'm just gonna fire my therapist because, Gretchen, this is what I do. I take, take, take, take, take people's crap. And then one day I just snap and I. I will literally never speak to that human being ever again. It's so bizarre. Like, I get to a breaking point and then I'm just.
- [49:08]
B
I'm done.
- [49:09]
A
Done.
- [49:10]
B
Right?
- [49:11]
A
This makes so much sense.
- [49:12]
B
Okay, so this is. This is Obliger rebellion. It is a phenomenon that is quite common. Like, there, you see it in movies, you see it on tv. It's often it's something that we've all seen, but it's. If you don't know what it is, it's very mysterious and confusing. And because people will say something like, why are you overreacting? Like, I make one comment and, like, now you're just shutting me out. Or they say, like, well, I asked if you would be on the committee and you said it was fine. So I don't understand what your problem is now. But if you understand Obliger rebellion, you see the mounting resentment, you see the building anger, it's coming a mile away. Often obligers will start acting out of character. Like, usually I'm fairly enthusiastic at work, but lately I've been doing online shopping for hours in the middle of the day. Or a person who's usually, like, very patient all of a sudden is starting to, like, be snappish. And this happens when obligers feel like they're neglected, taken advantage of, exploited, unheard, and then they just explode. And it's meant to protect the obliger because it's like, expectations have become unbearable. So Obliger rebellion will blow up the situation to protect the obliger the problem is that sometimes it has a lot of damage, and it can have reputational costs. It can be very, very confusing to the people around you because it's not a managed pushback. It's not. Like, I don't think that it's fair that I'm being assigned to all of the Drudge work. I think that other members of the team should also be. No, it's just, like. It's just, I'm quitting. I'm walking out the door. It's over. It's done. I'm out. And so it's interesting that you've. So you have experienced this. Okay, like, give me an example. And I'm so interested in oblige rebellion.
- [50:53]
A
My gosh.
- [50:54]
B
Okay.
- [50:54]
A
All the time, like, I have cut out family members from my life with just, like, I'm, like, I'm done with you boundary, and then have to re Evaluate that. Like, this was an extreme overreaction, but I still want to, like, keep that boundary. But it. It came out of nowhere.
- [51:12]
B
With.
- [51:12]
A
With employees, there's days where I'm like, I'm firing them. And then, like, a week later, I'm like, they're the best ever. Like, what is going on? I get to a point where I just am done. And there like, it. Like, it's not healthy. But now that I have a name, see, this is why. This is what I needed. I needed to understand, and I needed to have this language around it to be able to realize when I'm starting to tip that way.
- [51:43]
B
Well, and here's some accountability to help you deal with that, because you could say, I have to tell this family member that their constant requests for favors is making me feel very burdened and resentful. Because if they don't step back, I may cut off ties altogether, and that would be much worse for them and for me. And so in order to protect the relationship, I need to. I need to explain how I'm feeling. Because a lot of times obligers like, this is why they. Part of why they get taken advantage of is they just sort of cheerfully do it, do it, do it, instead of saying, why would I. I don't have time for this. You're asking too much. And, Cass, this is why they often pair up well with rebels, because they're feeling like, oh, my gosh, this family member, they're asking this, they're asking that. But how can I say no? It's family. And the rebel says. Says, you don't have to do what they say.
- [52:37]
A
I know.
- [52:37]
B
Come with me we can ignore it all. And the Obliger is like, this is amazing. I'm free. Like somebody is giving me, is like, is like freeing me. So that can be really good. But sometimes it can be really, it can, it, it can go out of control. And, and, and, and sometimes you do, you're like, oh my God. I, I, it. Because obligers often do they, they use metaphors of explosion, volcanoes, lids being blown off. I go nuclear.
- [53:04]
A
I call it going nuclear. And it goes nuclear. But you know what?
- [53:08]
B
It feels out of control.
- [53:10]
A
And that's it is, it is out of control. But Joe, we've been together 20 years. He now wreck it. And he's like, hey, no, you're not, you're, you're giving too much. I can tell you don't see enough.
- [53:21]
B
You're not.
- [53:21]
A
And I'm like, you're just so selfish and you're just. But then I'm like, I, I obliged to him and I need it, I need him to recognize, get taken advantage of.
- [53:33]
B
That is so powerful. So that's part of why it's a successful pairing. But you don't have to be in marriage for this. Like you could be in a workplace and like somebody could go into their manager, like another Obliger could go into their manager for somebody else and be like, hey, I don't know if you know, but like Cass is on seven projects right now and everybody else is like a two or three. Like I really don't think that that's fair.
- [53:53]
A
Right.
- [53:53]
B
Like somebody else can step up for you or they can say, you know, or you could go to a friend and say, you know, I just got assigned to my seventh project. Do you think that's like, what's up with that? They'd be like, Cass, you gotta go in there. That's not fair. Like, what are you, you're being exploited. This is crazy. Like you gotta do, you know, and then you're like, you're right, you know, I can't. Oh, now you've given me a big, big pep talk. I have to go in there and talk to my boss. These are, we have to.
- [54:17]
A
So we don't go nuclear. That's the thing. We understand. If we don't, we're going to get to a blow up place where we're going to have catastrophic.
- [54:26]
B
Exactly.
- [54:27]
A
Like situations arise.
- [54:29]
B
Exactly. And I see, I see examples of this all the time where somebody will be like, oh, you know, my son was planning his wedding and I made one little comment about, oh, it's too Bad that he said that they're. That they're only inviting family. And so, like, my husband's best friend couldn't come, and all of a sudden he exploded, and now he doesn't want us to come to the wedding. And I'm like, oh, you think it's one comment. I bet to that kid, it felt like a, you know, like, went on for months and probably ties into things for years. It's not coming out of the blue.
- [55:00]
A
But he never said anything.
- [55:01]
B
But he never said anything.
- [55:02]
A
I never say anything, and then I explode. This is Gretchen. You're changing my life again. How many times? It's crazy. Thank you. I want to pick your brain because you're a genius with noticing patterns.
- [55:15]
B
And I both love a category. That's for sure.
- [55:19]
A
I love a category.
- [55:20]
B
I say there are two kinds of people. The type of people who like to divide people into two types, and the kind of people who don't. We are the kind of people who do.
- [55:28]
A
I do. We also want to help people, I feel like. And we also try to notice patterns in people's behaviors. And so what I've noticed helping clients over the years is I see the people with the messiest homes. Homes sometimes tend to have very perfectionist mindset, which doesn't sound right. Like, it's like, well, if you're a perfectionist, that means you do everything perfectly. Maybe perfectionist isn't even the right word, but there's these expectations of how something's supposed to be done if I'm not gonna. If it's not worth doing, if it's not doing, worth doing right. And what I found has been really helpful with working with clients is like, why don't you practice? I call it kind of shitty exposure therapy. Doing that thing to completion as bad as possible. Like, what's the worst way you could do your dishes?
- [56:19]
B
They're like.
- [56:20]
A
I'm like, then do it even. Like, don't rinse them. Just put them in the dishwasher. Don't line them up. Just shove them in badly.
- [56:27]
B
And everyone.
- [56:28]
A
Don't fold your clothes. Just shove them in the drawer, not fold it. And everyone has this, like, visceral reaction to, like, oh, my God, that's awful. I could never. And yet there's dirty dishes all over the counter, and there's piles of clean clothes and baskets everywhere. But the idea of finishing it badly. Yes, but when I can convince them to try it, you don't have to do it forever. How about just one and sit with it and see how it feels this amazing transformation happens when there's like, oh, I'd prefer to actually do it, but I don't. Oh, like, it cracks through this. This expectation roadblock, this perfectionism roadblock. I'm actually writing a book called do it Shitty, which is trying to convince people to do everything shitty. To find out what matters and what expectations are real and what are perceived and what actually push the needle forward and what is just time wasting bull crap.
- [57:31]
B
Right?
- [57:31]
A
Because if you're a brain surgeon, go.
- [57:33]
B
This reminds me of an Lamott's shitty first drafts, where she's like, just write a really shitty first draft.
- [57:40]
A
This is it. But with everything. With your laundry, with your dishes, with everything. To get that baseline. To get that baseline of, like, what matters and to stop the procrastination roadblock. But here's my issue, Gretchen, is I did find a publisher who was like, okay. And they bought the book, which is awesome. But everybody I've talked to is like, why would you want to do anything shitty? So there's a language.
- [58:03]
B
Oh, no, there's a great. There's a great G.K. chesterton, who quote quotation where he said, anything worth doing is worth doing badly.
- [58:10]
A
Okay, So I need to convince so you. Because this isn't. I'm climbing uphill here. This is a fight uphill. And I think it's the language that I'm struggling with. And maybe it's because people are rebels, I don't know. Or maybe it's just that it feels very backwards of how we do everything in the world. So do you have advice for me of changing the narrative, or do you, as an upholder, are you resistant if I told you, hey, Gretchen, how about you just don't fold your underwear and you just toss them in the drawer? How would you feel about that?
- [58:47]
B
I'd feel fine. And you know what's. Well, first of all, I want to quote Voltaire. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Which I think is like the theme of your book. So you have Voltaire on your side as well as GK Chesterton. But here's the funny thing about upholders. Upholders, like, are really good at leisure because they're really good at saying, like, I'm sorry, I can't work late. I have to go to my yoga class. And I'm really good at saying, like, you know what? I don't care. Like, I actually do not fold my underwear. All of my stuff is just, like, jammed into my underwear drawer. Because I'm like, I don't really Care about whether my underwear is like, what do I care? And so it's actually easier for upholders because they're like, yeah, I've got an inner expectation that I like, that I don't care. It's not like they're always, like, they actually are less troubled by the kind of thing that you're talking about than obligers because they have the inner weight of their own inner expectation. And if they start getting too pulled towards that kind of red tape, the tightening of rules getting tighter and tighter, they can always say, like, but what really matters to me? And they can always kind of seek refuge in their own inner expectation. So what you're talking about is often very typical of obligers, I think. And I wonder, I think you said you talked about procrastination. And I think one way that I would think about this in terms of, like, procrastination and loopholes. And it's the kind of thing, like, where people say, well, if I can't do it perfectly, it's not worth doing it at all. And so it's just like a big, big. It's just a brute procrastination because it's like, well, until I have the time and the energy to do it perfectly, then I'm off the hook. Like, there's no reason to do it. And so I think it is. It is a way to see it as. I like the way you framed it, which I think is more positive than just saying, like, well, you're just procrastinating because it is a kind of loophole, which is. It's a. What I would call. So there's 10 categories of loopholes. These are like the justifications we have to let ourselves off the hook. And I would say that loophole is a questionable assumption. Loophole. So questionable assumption is something like, well, if I drink on an airplane, it doesn't count. It's like, yeah, it's a questionable assumption. Or that's actually. This doesn't count. That's the this doesn't count loophole. What's another questionable assumption? Another questionable assumption is it'll be easier if I start in a month. Is it going to be easier when you start in a month? But this is the questionable assumption of. Of it's not worth doing if it's not. If I'm. If I can't be perfect. Is that true? Would you. Would you. Would you agree to that? Probably the people themselves would say, like, no, I don't really agree with it. It would be better to be 80 than where I am now. But they sort of can't. They can't. They have to think through the questionableness of that assumption.
- [61:21]
A
Yeah, And I think there's a lot of people there. There's also a lot of people who struggle with like, literally the anxiety of doing something wrong. And I wonder if this is like school programming. Like you have to get an A plus and you're a failure if it isn't perfect or if you. I don't know where this comes from, but there's this.
- [61:37]
B
I wonder if it's like if you don't do it at all, you're not being graded. But if you try, then you're graded. This is like, you know, with kids, they say sometimes kids won't study at all because they think if I, if I don't do any work, then, then my bad grade isn't a reflection on my intelligence. But if I really try and I don't do well, then people will think that I'm not smart. And so if I don't try at all, I'm not great at. Then I enter into judgment.
- [62:07]
A
This is what I think is the real root here, is the feeling of if I don't try, I haven't failed. And I don't have to feel that yet.
- [62:18]
B
Okay, so you're saying I just do so little that it's almost like not even trying. It's like no one is saying that you're making a real, like you're 100 effort. You're just making a minimal effort.
- [62:32]
A
Yeah, I need to refrain, get a
- [62:34]
B
hundred percent on doing a shitty job.
- [62:38]
A
You can A plus, you get an
- [62:40]
B
A plus and sucking, you get an A plus and a D. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is this kind of relate. I, I sort of, every, every month I make a stack of all the books that I've read. And I realized that just that little bit of reporting was making me want to get credit or even in my own mind, getting credit for books. And so it was hard for me to put down a book even if I didn't like it. So now I also make a list of the books that I didn't finish. So I get credit for not finishing. I'm like, yes, don't finish a bad book. That's what you want to do. A in not finishing. I had to give myself credit for it because otherwise I was just like being pulled, I was being pulled toward that. I'm. I want, I want to do it right.
- [63:21]
A
I think that's it. I think that's this underlying society Taught thing that if we're not doing it all the way, we are a failure. We will be judged, we will be shamed. Like get the A plus or bad things happen kind of thing. So we A plus everything or. And if they can't A plus it, now they're just like, oh, ooh, I don't want to get a D. Nobody wants to get a D. But man, life isn't all essays and, and brain surgery. It's a lot of dishes and food and vacuuming the floor every single day till we die. So yes, we're changing the narrative.
- [63:59]
B
But I think that's so fascinating that someone is like, I am so fastidious a housekeeper that all my clothes are in baskets and none of my dishes are done. But like, that makes sense in some kind of like double mind.
- [64:15]
A
This is this. Yes. Because they're. Wait, they're gonna do it perfectly. So it isn't. They just, it's in the, it's in like the way zone. So therefore it doesn't count as failure because it's in process still. It isn't completed.
- [64:30]
B
But see, this is another way you could get to this through the tendencies because you could be like, okay, if you're in A, well, probably you're not an upholder, but if you're an upholder, just put it on the calendar. I'm in to do this for half an hour every day. Whatever it is, doesn't matter. Just a half an hour. Do whatever you feel like. If you're a questioner, it's like, why is this slowing you down? Why is this making things take longer? Why is this adding to your stress? Like, what is the system? If it's an obliger, it's like invite people over, have somebody come to stay. Think of your mother in law. Have your mother in law have your mother in law come and say and get it. But then if you're a rebel, it's like, like I, I choose, I choose a different way. I choose to do something different. I choose to let go of her. I don't want to be controlled by society's false ideals of perfectionism. I make my own standard. I, I will maintain the level that makes sense for me. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah, so you can plug in your tendency to like, keep you on that path of doing things.
- [65:29]
A
The B plus or the sea for students around the world?
- [65:33]
B
The sea. The sea. I mean, a lot of things don't need to be done. And it takes. Getting from 90 to 100 takes so much work versus getting from zero, you know, to 60.
- [65:49]
A
Life's too short, my friend, to fold your underwear and triangles. Okay, thank you. You heard it from the great Gretchen Rubin.
- [65:55]
B
She also agrees that's kind of a good subtitle.
- [65:59]
A
Life's too short. I like that.
- [66:01]
B
Life's too short to fold your underwear and triangles.
- [66:05]
A
So good. Okay.
- [66:07]
B
At least it's. It's. It's a line somewhere in the book, for sure. That is a great line.
- [66:11]
A
Thank you so, so much. I'm going to put a link to, of course, the four tendencies and all the other amazing things. Let my listeners know, though, you're doing something pretty cool with move in in 26. How can they follow along with that challenge?
- [66:24]
B
Yeah. Yes. Come to my site. Follow along with move26. Every year I have a podcast too Happier with Gretchen Rubin that I do with my sister. And every year we challenge ourselves and listeners to some to something like, it was read 25 and 25. So read 25 minutes a day in 2025 and it's move 26 and 26. So just move your body for 26 minutes. It could be stretching, it could be yoga. It could be clearing your clutter. Because one of the things about clearing clutter is you got to be moving around. And it's like instead of thinking like, oh, my gosh, I'm just going back and forth from one room to the other. You think, this is amazing. I'm doing my move 26 and I'm getting my house cleaner. It's like a double win. Look at me. Yeah. So everything's on my site, Gretchen Rubin.com plus, if you want to take a quiz, I have a quiz to tell you what your tendency is. It's like, I don't know, three and a half million people have taken that quiz. It's all@gretchenrubin.com so much. Lots of stuff there.
- [67:14]
A
All my listeners, you need to know your tendency, but you also need to know the tendency of the people who live in the home with you and your co workers and your parents. And it will help you not manipulate, communicate.
- [67:28]
B
We could do Game of Thrones characters. We could do the office characters. Like, once you know what you're looking for, you see these, you see these types everywhere.
- [67:36]
A
See it everywhere. Okay, well, thank you so much. This is amazing. I'm just. I'm just blown away by your brain and how incredibly helpful all of your insight is to me and to the entire world. So thank you so much for being here.
- [67:51]
B
Well, Cass, thank you so much for having me. I feel like, we could talk all day. We're interested in so many of the same things.
- [67:56]
A
We are. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed this podcast as much as I did. And crazy thing, while you're listening to this, I am on a plane flying to Gretchen Rubin's house. Stop. How not so much is this. Like, I'm going to Gretchen Rubin's house.
- [68:12]
B
House.
- [68:12]
A
And we are doing a home makeover for someone together. And if you would have told me 50, if you would have told me two years ago, if you would have told me six months ago, but 15 years ago, when I picked up my first book from Gretchen Rubin, that I would be going to her house and working on a project with her. What? I never would have believed it. Like, what the heck is happening here? It is the biggest honor of my life, and I can't wait for you to see this video. And honestly, guys, dreams come true. Put something cool on your vision board right now. Don't get emotional, you weirdo. She sees me cry, she'll never want to talk to me again. Okay, I'm cool, too, Gretchen Rubin. Anyways, thank you guys so much, and I'll see you next time. Two good and coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold, or frothy, two good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers, real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.