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Clutterbug - Real-Life Hacks and Tips to Declutter, Organize and Clean your Home Fast
Time Anxiety Explained with Chris Guillebeau | Clutterbug Podcast # 298
01:04:08
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- [00:00]
A
Do you think you have time anxiety? I honestly had no idea what this was, and I certainly didn't think I suffered from it, but I was wrong. And I'm gonna wager a bet that you struggle with time anxiety, too. We're gonna talk about that and so much more in today's podcast. It's a good one because you're gonna meet my favorite human on the entire planet. So buckle up, let's jump in, and welcome to the Clutterbug podcast. Oh, right, right. Except for my family. Sorry. I love my husband and children and extended family too, but. But outside of family, favorite person on the planet. Usually this is the part where I'm like, get up and declutter stuff and put things in trash bags, which I think is important. And if this is what you want to do, absolutely. But recently I realized I hadn't cleaned things that needed to be cleaned. Like my corners filled with cobwebs and the baseboards and. You know what I mean. You know those things that we just, we know we're supposed to occasionally sometimes clean, but we neglect. What if we did some of that today? What if you literally grab a bucket, or if you don't have a bucket, just a big old bowl, fill it with some dish soap, warm water, grab a rag and walk around and wipe stuff with me, like, get down, get high, do both things and eliminate some, some dirt. This doesn't take any sort of tough love or brain power, but it's still something that's going to make you really proud at the end. And maybe even as you're cleaning, you'll come across things that you're like, what the heck? And why is this here? And I don't even need it. And feel free to put that in a bag, but let's put on our big girl pants. Or boy, for the two men that I think listen to this podcast and let's deep clean something. I. I feel like I have a love hate relationship with cleaning because it is one of those things put on my to do list to kind of appease, like, to kind of like fill that need to be productive. Like, oh, I should be doing something, but, oh, everything seems so overwhelming. Maybe I'll just dust and it's like you still feel like you've checked something off, but is it really pushing the needle of your life forward? Like, is it actually making a difference in the grand scheme of things? Probably not. Friends. So, yeah, I have this love hate relationship with cleaning because it's something we have to do, is something none of us want to do. But yeah, this is underlying, like, is it really worthy of the time it takes? And I struggle with that. I do. I absolutely struggle with that. Especially when I think about aging and time is so precious and it's fleeting. Spending hours doing something that's just going to get dirty again can feel like a waste of this precious time we have on the planet. Let's get real. Let's talk about that. But you know what's worse than that? Living in a hovel, you know? So I think that's why I'm such a huge fan of doing it shitty. Like, taking shortcuts, doing things fast, getting it done good enough so that we don't have. It doesn't have to be like one or the other. We can still have both. We can have our extra time to do things that actually matter and still live in a clean and tidy good enough home. Does that make sense? Sometimes it feels kind of like pointless to do the cleaning. I mean, we only have so many hours in the day. Oh, so many hours in the month, in the year before. Time's up, my friend. Time's up for us. So should we really be spending that time dusting? It's this existential crisis. Am I saying that right? It's this, like, oh, the doom and gloom. We don't have enough time in the day or our lives to get everything done, which sometimes can lead to, like, over productivity and things that don't matter. All of this craziness led me to this incredible book by my good friend Chris Gillebo called Time Anxiety. It just helped me get a really good perspective on all of this in actual, tangible steps to overcoming my time anxiety. So let's hear from Chris.
- [04:06]
B
Ms. Arson, welcome. Thank you for having me.
- [04:08]
A
Welcome to the podcast.
- [04:10]
B
Oh, my God, thank you. It's my first podcast interview, and I'm very nervous, but excited to be here. I'm happy to see you. Thank you for asking me.
- [04:20]
A
Thank you for coming on. Honestly, we've known each other a while, and I've always wanted to have you on the podcast. But, like, he's so awesome. I can't ask, like, I. I don't want to, like, use the friendship card to get you on the pod, but.
- [04:34]
B
I thought, you know, I'm honored. It's so fun. I love the show. I love everything that you have done with the show and the clutterbug empire, and you're just an inspiration to me. So thank you.
- [04:44]
A
Stop it. Okay? This is ridiculous. Because Chris is being humble is the most interesting man on the planet. And we're gonna talk about, like, honestly, most interesting, honest, humble cast knows about.
- [04:58]
B
12 people on the planet, and of that dozen people, I'm in the top third. So that's great.
- [05:04]
A
You are so amazing. Thank you for being on the Clutterbug podcast. We're gonna talk about all the cool stuff that is coming up that you're doing. We're gonna talk about your talk a little bit first, like, about how we met, and then you're going to share your life story, because it's insane.
- [05:19]
B
Okay, great. In like, 30 seconds or something. How did we meet? Well, I've been familiar with your work for years, of course. And then was it just that when we were in this group, like a little ADHD mastermind kind of group, that we first got to hang out, and we get to hang out for, like, two hours a month, which is pretty cool, virtually. And then we got to hang out in Austin, Texas, when you came to be our keynote speaker for the first ever neurodiversion event, which was really great, and you made it so much better than it would have been otherwise. I think that's how we know each other, right?
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A
That is definitely how we know each other. Yeah. We do this mastermind group with other ADHDers, who I guess are the, like, leaders in the industry. Gross.
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B
It feels weird to say, well, we snuck in somehow.
- [06:01]
A
We. Somehow we scooted in there. And just hearing you talk about your life, I. Like, honestly, every time we meet, I feel like I just pick my job off the floor because I find you just so inspiring. And I love that everything you do is. I mean, it's the art of non conformity. Right? That's your whole.
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B
That's your whole thing, for better or worse or for both.
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A
So if you wouldn't mind, I'm definitely. We're gonna dive deep, but I would love it if you kind of talked a little bit about your backstory with my listeners so they could see your awesomeness. You're humble. Let me just tell you. Chris will be humble. So everything he says, no, it's way, way cooler than no, no, no.
- [06:45]
B
It's good. I'm trying to think about how to, like, condense it to give it as, like, a little sound bite version, you know, while also still being, like, true. Right. So the art of non conformity, that's kind of how I got started in terms of, like, sharing online and such, which goes way back to 2008. And before that, I had been really fortunate to have had a bunch of different experiences. I was an aid worker in West Africa for four years. So I lived on a hospital ship for much of that time. And I got to travel in, but then also a bunch of other regions. And I really liked travel. I liked goal setting. I was always like a list maker. I was kind of organized. Like, I like just organization and thinking about, like, how do you make things happen? And projects and such. And I'd also always worked for myself because I'd always been very. It's very ADHD because I said I was unemployable, right? Like, I'm not good at working for other people. But if I'm working on something I'm excited about, then I'm going to give a lot to it, you know. So that's a little bit of background that led to me saying, okay, I've done some cool things, but they're very disparate and like, kind of spread, you know, spread out. And so I want to have a project where I share about it with everybody and I'm on a quest of some kind. And so the quest I chose was to go to every country in the world. And at the time, I think I'd been to like 70 countries or something. And I was like, okay, there's 193 in the world. There were 192. They added one later, long story. And so what does that look like? Can I do that? So I started writing about that on the blog the Art of nonconformity in 2008. And, you know, I did. I finished that quest about five years later. And along the way, just. Just like you, I started building community and, like, realizing that people were connecting with the work in different ways. And I also realized pretty early on that people were connecting to it not just because of travel. Like, I thought it was just about travel. I was like, I'm just going to go travel and I'll write, you know. But people were connecting to it with like, an emot response in terms of like, oh, there's something that I want to do, like, whatever. Like, there's something that they want. They want to live away that's different from their family or their friends or people that they'd known, or they wanted to also, like, go around the world or start a business or otherwise work for themselves or just do something that's kind of, like, unconventional and different. And so I started leaning into that a lot more. And I started an event series called World Domination Summit that we did for 10 years in Portland, Oregon, and did a bunch of meetups with my readers and you know, folks around the world started writing books. I mean, there's more, but I feel like I've gone on quite, quite a bit. So, I mean, these days I write books, I host events. I'm. I feel really fortunate. Have an amazing community.
- [09:19]
A
Yeah, man. What I think is so inspiring. You're just like. I had already been to 70 countries. Like, it's like nothing.
- [09:27]
B
Well, I worked up. Like, it's okay, you know, I worked up. But the reason I mentioned that is because sometimes people think that I decided to go to every country in the world after I'd been to like two countries, you know, like, oh, I've been to the US And Canada, so therefore now I want to go everywhere else. No, no, no. It's like I got comfortable, you know, with travel and then I went to more places and then I was like, I'll go to more. And so I think it's a good lesson because the lesson is like, your confidence expands as you get experience and then you. Then you realize, like, oh, there's, there's more, you know, like, what about you? Like, did you imagine that you were going to have like the, you know, the TV show and then this and then the YouTube and this, all these extensions that you have and like the partnerships, like, as you kind of do more, you get more comfortable and more, More confident and, and more things come to you also.
- [10:10]
A
Yeah, you are definitely a person and I feel like I can relate on like a baby level where you're like, you know, what would be cool? This thing. And then you do that thing. Your follow through is insane. Have you always been like this? This is a question I always want to ask you because I, I really struggled as a kid with ADHD undiagnosed, you know, and I didn't get the whole un. Like art of non conformity. I just was like, I. I'm not doing that because that seems horrible with regular life. So I chose this other horrible.
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B
You.
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A
I mean, you were responsible and you went down a path. Like, was this always your thing? Did you have a, a real struggle in your younger years?
- [10:49]
B
Yeah, I was very rebellious also at first, which I don't think is a bad thing necessarily. Right. Like, that's a characteristic you kind of take with you into adulthood and hopefully you redirect it, you know, in some way. But no, I was a juvenile delinquent. I didn't go to high school. You know, I think we talked about that at one point. I went to one year of high school and I dropped out. I had lots of like, quote unquote, behavioral issues. You know, I burned a house down once, which I could have used your help with. Right. Nobody was in the house. It was a vacant house, but still. So, no, I had. Those are, like, behavioral struggles. But then I also was just like, really depressed and really anxious and was not super. Like, I used the word organized earlier, but I think I was very disorganized in terms of. I think. I'm sure the ADHD had something to do with it because I could get really excited and work on something, but there were a lot of things I did not follow through on very well. So I appreciate you noting that about the follow through, but I think you're only seeing, like, some of the things that actually worked. Right. A lot of stuff, too.
- [11:49]
A
Good. Yeah, I only see the things that work. That is really good because I think as the same thing for me, people only see the success, and they don't see, like, the stacked piles of failures behind. Did you struggle financially? Because when I hear you've traveled to 193 countries, I'm like, he rich. Rich. He's sitting on bales of money because travel's expensive. Expensive. But I have a feeling that was not the case. And you hustled to make this work.
- [12:17]
B
Yeah, no, it's funny, I used. I mean, in the early days of blogging, I would get a lot of comments about, like, does he have a trust fund? Or whatever. And so I started sharing very transparently about how here's how much everything costs that I'm doing. And, you know, the first 100 countries, like, once I started having a vision for this, I think it was closer to like, 50. When I. When I was like, okay, what does this look like? And maybe I can get to a hundred. And then that's cool. But that's only halfway. Once I started actually doing the math, I was like, okay, so to get like, halfway to every country in the world, it costs like $30,000. And so, you know, I don't want to say that $30,000 is a small amount of money, but, like, you know, at the time, my friends were buying cars, you know, for 30,000. Now, they cost a lot more. Right? But, like, back then it was like $30,000. It's like your nice SUV. And I was like, you know, I don't. I don't need that. But to me, to be able to go to the world, like, to go to all these countries, and, you know, that's really. That would be, like, tremendously valuable. So it didn't actually have to cost that much. And I did self fund the whole thing. And I wasn't like a millionaire or have a big business or anything. I did freelance stuff, I did consulting, I built websites, I did all this kind of stuff. So it was hustling along the way. And then also I did like one of the businesses I had for a while was about travel hacking. So it's about using frequent flyer miles and getting different credit card signup bonuses and how do you earn points and then redeem them. And so I kind of got into that world for a while and that actually allowed for probably half of the whole travel experience.
- [13:37]
A
I'm so. I wanna. You make me wanna travel. I'm feeling so, so inspired. And through this journey, you met a lot of other people who were living kind of this unconventional life. Is that why you decided to host your first kind of event, this summit that you. That honestly, everyone still talks about? I'm so disappointed that I didn't get to go because what. Chris is being very humble again. I mean, world Dom, like, this was the biggest, best, insane event this is. Where did Brene Brown not speak at this event?
- [14:09]
B
Was there. Yeah, Brene was there with us. Our second year, I did a little karaoke duet on stage with Brene Brown that she still hasn't let me forget. We sang Don't Stop Believing. So that was fun. And lots of other people, lots of our friends, our colleagues.
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A
Now, you've written like a million gazillion books. But your latest, time anxiety, I saw.
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B
You have a copy. Incredible. Wow.
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A
Look at all my sticky notes too.
- [14:32]
B
It's funny. I have one too, too. Wow.
- [14:33]
A
All right, so I'm gonna be honest. When I first received the book, I was like, this is not gonna be something that I need. And here's why. I thought time anxiety was the anxiety I used to feel about being late all the time. Because adhd, I was late for everything at all times. And I was super anxious about it to the point where like, consumed a large amount of my thought. So I would have to go early to everything. I would have to set multiple alarms. But I feel like through co strategies, I kind of nailed that. So I'm like, oh, I'm not late anymore. I don't need to read time anxiety. And then I read it. Listen, existential time is running out in my life daily routine. There's not enough time in the day. I did not realize that this is what time anxiety was. And this shook me. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think this is a Universal thing we just didn't have a name for before and maybe that we didn't even realize we were feeling because it's so common and so long. Like we've just been feeling this our whole lives.
- [15:47]
B
Yeah. So the first thing you mentioned, you know, about chronically being late and being stressed about it, that's called time blindness. So that's a component, you know, of time anxiety. I think there's like 27 chapters in the book. That's one chapter. But ultimately I think of time anxiety just as you, you said very well about the sense of time running out. Like I feel like is running out in my life and this causes me a lot of distress. You know, I don't know exactly what to do next. Like there's a lot of things I could be doing right now, but how do I know, you know, what that should be and how do I handle competing priorities? I think a lot of people in the like productivity space or like the time management so called space, they often, they talk a lot about prioritization. But the problem is like what if you have competing priorities? What if you have, what if you have prioritized? And you're like, yes, this is important. You know, my family, my health, my work, you know, but my hobbies, like all these things. But then like you don't actually have time to do all of those things. Right. And so for me, I felt really stressed for years and years about this sense of like, what do I actually do? In a world of so much opportunity and choice, that's great in lots of ways and it's also very overwhelming. And so as I started talking with people, you know, they would say, what are you working on? Or what are you exploring? And I would say, oh, I'm working on this concept of time anxiety. Not sure what I'm going to do with it. And so many people, it was near universal. The response people were like, I have that, like I don't actually know what that is. But I, I am stressed about time all the time. And my friends and I talk about this, this is like a recurring topic but we never had a name for it as you said. And so I do feel that so many people in this day and age for a variety of reasons, like one is just existential, but I think also it's like, like post pandemic, it's you know, the algorithmic social media that we all kind of live in and the non stop news cycle and like all these reasons, like we are often very overwhelmed and we don't know quite what to do with it or how to spend our time.
- [17:47]
A
Yeah. Reading your book. I saw you kind of mentioned there's kind of two ways to react to this. So for me, I've always had this, like, life is short. I gotta make the most of it. I've gotta do all these things before I get hit by a bus tomorrow. Make sure I. And I mean, my husband calls it, yeah, like trophy chasing. I'm like, what's next? I don't even enjoy the thing that I've just worked towards. It was just like a trophy for the wall for me to look at on my deathbed, I guess. I don't know. I'm like collecting this. And that also shows up not just in like my existential crisis of I'm always like, I have to do more, but in my daily routine. It does look like this ridiculous checklist. Like, oh, no, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow. Better clean the eavesdrop. Like, where is this coming from? Yeah, I think that's one way that it shows up. But I also see it show up. I'm going to call my husband. I'm going to call out my husband here. But I feel like he has that same, oh, my gosh, life is short. But for him it's this overwhelm of. I have no idea, I should be doing something important, but I don't know what exactly it is. I don't know what my purpose is. So there's like this stagnation or procrastination. So there's that overproductive. And there's also that procrastination. Procrastination does that kind of, am I, am I getting it here?
- [19:09]
B
I mean, ultimately these things are linked, you know, so people tend to respond more to one or the other, as you said. But ultimately, like, if we think about what do we want in our life, we want some kind of purpose. We want meaning. Right. And this can, you know, filter and look differently for different people. But ultimately, like, we want purpose and, and meaning. And so how do we get that? Well, somehow, you know, Gretchen Rubin is a mutual friend. Right. You know, Gretchen, I mean, Gretchen is so good at, you know, she has so many, like, aphorisms that are just so simple and yet so powerful. And I think about them all the time. And one of the things she talks about is like, the way we spend our days, how we spend our lives. And, you know, we want to connect, like the short term or the day to day. Like your husband says, I don't know exactly what to do next. Somehow the answer to that should connect ultimately to purpose and meaning. Right. Which doesn't mean to be like a big thing all the time doesn't have to be a big, huge thing. Right. Sometimes maybe, you know, cleaning the eaves actually makes you feel rested or, you know, it takes some stress away from your life. It brings relief to you. That's fine. I think chasing trophies is also fine. Right. Like, I'm actually kind of goal oriented. I've always been very future minded and I've tried to get away from it a little bit, but it's not like I'm trying to go completely to the other side of the spectrum. I just want to have a place for that. And so I think the fact that you have chased trophies, that's part of, that's part of you. That's, that's allowed you to be successful and to achieve all these different things that are like far beyond what you imagined. But as you note, like, there's also some dissatisfaction in doing that. And so I think you want to resolve the dissatisfaction and learn to maybe have more appreciation for what you've done. So there's like a little exercise everybody knows, like a bucket list is like, here's all the trophies I want to chase and I want to go to Paris and fly in the hot air balloon. But I like this exercise of a reverse bucket list where it's like, what are all the things I've already done? You know, and let me just spend 15 minutes and like identify like, what are some cool things I've done in my life? And they could be adventury or they could be relational or spiritual or educational. It could be anything, right? Whatever comes to mind. And I think when most people do that, they experience a sense of satisfaction. They recognize things that they have completely forgot about. You know, people are like, oh yeah, I totally forgot that I met the president or the prime Minister or I did this. I totally forgot that I went to Harvard or you know, whatever it is like, like. And you know, that can help you maybe also kind of recognize what is it that makes you happy, what is it that brings joy to your life and how do you want to do more of that in the future. So ultimately, I think people are looking for relief. They're looking for like the opposite of stress and the way to get that. It can't just be about like doing more, which is what a lot of productivity and like, time management tips. Here's a new method, here's a new journal, here's a new app, here's a new system and it's like, if we're overwhelmed, you know, adding something to it, you know, cannot be the solution. We have to take something away.
- [22:02]
A
Yeah, I read the book, like the 5am Club. So that was a big thing, like, get up, get up at 5am then now it's like, get up at 4am they just keep backing it. Maybe just never sleep.
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B
Exactly, right, Exactly.
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A
What if we just never sleep?
- [22:15]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of like, you know, we all have the same 24 hours in a day. Well, yes, we do, but we all have very different lives. And. And you can't just tell people to, like, work harder. Right. Especially for people who are caregivers and have all sorts of responsibilities. It's like, maybe they're already getting up early. You know, like, sleep deprivation is not a sustainable strategy for a lot of things. Maybe it's good for like two to three days. Maybe, like, if you, if your house is a mess, I don't know what you would advise somebody, but, like, maybe you can get up an hour earlier to clean tomorrow, and that's great, you know, then you feel better tomorrow, perhaps. But you can't do that every day. Day. Like, that's not helpful.
- [22:49]
A
It's not, no. And I feel like both of us know that. The real secret is these, like, little, it's consistency in these, like, little chunks, just picking away. Instead of like, having to completely change everything about yourself and become a different person. You are perfect just the way you are. We can just make little adaptations that feel easy and effortless, but if we're consistently working towards this bigger goal, that's really, really how we, you know, collect the trophies. Not that everybody wants to collect trophies, Chris.
- [23:20]
B
Yeah, no, I know, I know. But listen, I'm really glad you said that because about, like, showing up as you are and you were perfect as you are. Because I think if anything needs to be stripped away, maybe it is what. What is extraneous. Like, what needs to be stripped away is like the Persona or the personality or something you have taken on that's actually not yours. You know, you have taken. You have conformed to somebody else's expectations for you or somebody else had this idea for you or this dream for you, and you kind of took it on because that's what you do. And maybe that's the thing that needs to be removed, like, to get closer to your core self. I think that's, you know, it's not about, like, changing your core self. It's getting closer to that. So I'm so Glad you said that.
- [23:59]
A
One of my favorite things in your book is actually, yeah, removing things. It's the. The. The time decluttering. Can you tell? I mean, I'm all for decluttering, but when I read your time decluttering, I was like, like, sold. It was good. It was great. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because it is a concept I've never heard of before.
- [24:19]
B
It's so basic. But, yeah, I guess, you know, everybody is familiar with. With decluttering, thanks to your work in large part. But, you know, we all say, like, time is the most precious resource. Like, this is a cliche, but everybody's heard it. It's true. It's one of those cliches that's also true. And yet we don't devote nearly as much attention to our schedule and our commitments to it. Like, this is the most precious resource, but yet often we kind of make all sorts of commitments without really thinking about it. So I think it's very helpful when you're feeling overwhelmed about time to look at your schedule, your calendar for the next few weeks, and just challenge yourself to remove a couple of items from that calendar. Maybe it was something that you agreed to do at one point that now you're like, I don't need to do that thing. Maybe it was something that somebody else added you to. Or maybe it's just like, how can you free up space? And then before you add anything else in that space, just consider, like, how would I like to spend this time? Like, I feel like I don't have enough time. I've just given myself some time. Maybe it's an hour, maybe it's a half a day or more. What do I want to do with that? And I think just being intentional makes such a difference. Like, in the book, I have lots of activities and exercises for people who want to get more systematic with it. But I think just starting with noticing makes such a big difference. And like, if you notice and pay attention to how you spend your time, you are naturally going to. To realize, oh, I. I want to do more of this thing. I want to do less of this thing. Right? And then naturally I'm going to kind of do more things that I find fulfilling. So that's. Yeah, time decluttering is just like, how can I. How can I clear up space in my life for more of what matters to me?
- [25:54]
A
And this is what made your book. I am just gonna. This is my last I'm time, like, saying how awesome you are. But it was very awesome that every single Chapter was, like, tangible how tos. Like, it wasn't just this highbrow kind of talking about the philosophy. It was like a manual to get more time back to ease the anxiety and to just live a richer, fuller, more, just incredible life. So I will put again the link to your book in the show notes. So good. I mean, everything you write is incredible. But this was so, so good. And I do feel like just reading the title, I didn't understand how much I needed to read the book. So I'm hoping my listeners realize we all have time Anxiety. We just didn't know that was the word for what we were feeling.
- [26:43]
B
Well, thank you for that kind endorsement.
- [26:45]
A
I guess I'm struggling with something right now, Chris, when it comes to I don't know if it's time, but it is this feeling of like, this, this, like, life is short. I'm going to be 46. And I also feel like maybe some of my best achievements are behind me, which is also a little bit depressing. You know what I mean? What's next? I'm not going to live up to this? Am I going to slowly just fade into oblivion and, you know, die with 50 cats? Like, I don't know. I'm so. So I overcompensate that with ridiculous things that are on my to do list. And, And I guess how do we find the balance? How do we not use productivity as a crutch to kind of make us feel better? It's kind of like, you know, I'm trying to, like, appease the anxiety with these crappy things like, who cares? Who cares? Chores? Because at the end of the day, that's not really going to make me feel better.
- [27:41]
B
It's not going to be enough. That's the thing. I think you recognize that you're always going to want more. And so I think at least, you know, for me, because I also very much went through this, this process of, like, oh, you know, my best days are behind me and I've done all these things, but I also have regrets. You know, like, I wish I had done this thing differently or here was a choice, you know, in my life. And I, like, I think maybe I took the wrong one or I'm curious about the other one. Right. I think it's important to understand that regret is a normal function of life and you're going to have some regrets. Like, it's not, you know, the tattoo, like, no regrets, you know, with this misspelling. Like, it's actually not possible to go through life and not have Any regrets or, or even if, maybe. If it is, theoretically, you're living a pretty small life, right? Like, you're. You're not really, like, making a lot of brave choices. And so life, like, life contains regrets. Life has grief. Grief, right. There are things that we wish we. We could do, or we wish we could do everything. And I think this is a key point because, like, for kids, it's really great, you know, to tell kids, like, you can be anything you want and, like, you should dream big, right? No limits. And I think at a certain point in your adult life, or wherever it comes to be, it's actually very helpful to have constraints and to say, like, well, like, you can do anything, right? But you probably can't do everything. Like, you're going to have to make some choices, and if you want to have this thing, then you're going to have to say, you know, no to that thing or close the door on something. And so that. That is sad in a way. Like. Like, we have to go through that grief process. But I think on the other side of it, then there's a lot of joy and acceptance and like, okay, now this is what I've chosen to do, and I'm going to do this to the best of my ability. And I could still make changes. I could still do something different later, but this is kind of where. Where I'm at. I think there's some peace with that. Maybe I'll give you one practical thing as well. There's an exercise called the eighth day of the week in the book, which is like, imagine that you have an extra day every single week. And so this day comes around, right, every week. And on this day, it's a totally bonus day. Nobody is expecting anything from you. And so whatever responsibilities you have on the other days, like, you have, like, a little free day, how do you spend that day, right? And what do you do? And. And the reason why I think it's helpful to think of it this way is, like, long ago I had an exercise about, like, your ideal day, like, your perfect day, your single perfect day. And I think that is. That has a lot of pressure. You know, it's like, it's a one day in my life. It's gotta be the perfect day. So there's a lot of pressure in that. But also, if it's, you know, if it's an eighth day, if it comes back around, then you can also build on it. It's additive. And so it's like, if you have an extra day, like, well, you could Write a book in a year. You could learn a language in a year. There's so many, any kind of creative project. So it's very helpful to just spend a time brainstorming and being like, if I had this free time, how would I spend it? This is this extra time. And then from there, there's ways of, like, okay, how can we help you get more of that time? But also, it's just a clue. It's a clue to, like, what really matters to you? Because sometimes it's hard to figure out what. What really matters because we have so many different voices and filters and, you know, it's like, other people want me to do this thing, or I'm already doing this thing, so. But if you really strip it down and just, like, blank canvas, 8th day of the week, what does that look like? Like, I think that's interesting.
- [30:52]
A
Oh. And I immediately got excited at the thought of an eighth day and knew exactly what I would do. And then you were talking about all this cool stuff like writing a book, and I thought, I would lay in bed all day and play Fortnite. That's all day and play Fortnite. And I wouldn't.
- [31:10]
B
Dishes. Or do you. Do you have, like, an avatar or like a.
- [31:13]
A
You know, I don't, but in the game, I dress up. It's a. It's a video game.
- [31:18]
B
You can buy different costumes and such.
- [31:19]
A
And I do because I'm a toddler, But I. You know what? I got really excited, Chris. I got very excited. So what that tells me is I do need a day with no commitments and obligations. I need Sunday to be my eighth day. I need to treat that like the thing that got me excited. So, anyone listening? That was so amazing. What did you immediately. What was your first thought of the thing you would like to do on your eighth day? And that's the thing you should probably do.
- [31:53]
B
Yeah, I love that.
- [31:55]
A
So good. You're a genius. Did I mention he's a New York Times bestselling author? Listen, can you just calm down a little bit, okay? Because every time I talk to. I talk to my husband about you, I'm like, do you know what Chris is doing? He's, like, saving the world. Probably because you're just.
- [32:12]
B
I'm not a firefighter, right? I'm not a firefighter. I don't have an hgtv T show, TV show, or any other TV show.
- [32:19]
A
Neither do I, Chris. It's, It's. It's gone. But, But I, I, I just want to commend your bravery And I think my listeners, I mean, there's so much to take away from this interview, but I would love them to take the thing that I've taken from meeting you and getting to know you, which is like, dream big and don't be afraid to try something out of the box. And you're never afraid of failure. And you dust yourself off and you get back up. And all I see when I look at you is success. And I think it's your just commitment to just jumping in with both feet that really makes you extraordinary.
- [33:00]
B
Amazing. Thank you so much for saying that.
- [33:02]
A
Thank you. I'm gonna stop kissing your butt. I know it makes you awkward. Okay, good.
- [33:06]
B
As long as you know it's mutual, which it is. I tell everybody about you too.
- [33:09]
A
So I think what gives you, I guess, your insane. Like when I look at you, I'm just like, oh, he's so awesome. It's the courage to like, not care if you fail.
- [33:19]
B
It's the courage to be willing to speak to five people in West Virginia or whatever, you know, I think. And so. And that's okay because some of those people, three of those five people, 15 years later are like still reading my newsletter. And we have a personal relationship. So in some cases, like, you know, making personal connections and how can you do something a little bit different than the way everybody else is doing? And I think that's like ultimately the way that you're going to kind of break through.
- [33:45]
A
When I was a kid and I saw kind of the narrative that society tells us, so try really hard in school and then get married and have 2.5 children and get a minivan and have a white picket fence. There was such a wrongness. Like I. Even very young, I felt like a real, like it didn't. I was like, I. Is this it? This is. This is the best we can sort of strive for. And I had very blue collar parents. I love my parents so much, but they were really encouraging me to get a factory job out of high school and like, I'd be so lucky. And I'm just like, this all sounds hor. Absolutely horrible. Did you also have this sense of like wrongness?
- [34:28]
B
Very much. And I think this is one of those, like there are two groups of people kinds of things, because there are a lot of people like you and me who will either say exactly what you just said, like word for word, or there's some variation to it it. But basically what they're pointing to is some sort of discomfort, you know, or like dissatisfaction with the way other people are doing things or the traditional way or the conventional path. And. And sometimes, you know, maybe some of them grow out of it, you know, in some ways, but in others, I think for a lot of us, it's like, it's in our DNA. And so for the other group of people, the people who are very happy, you know, doing everything that you said, the opposite of, like, doing the traditional thing. Like, I always say that that's great. Those. Those are not. That's not my market, you know, like, I'm interested in reaching the discontented or the people who want something different with life. And, you know, if you're perfectly satisfied, then that's great. Nobody's trying to talk you out of anything. Right. It's like, I'm not. I'm not an evangelist. I'm a recruiter. You know, it's like, I'm trying to, like, find the people who are already like, yes, like, I want that. Right. And if you're like, I'm totally happy with. With the picket fence and everything else like that, that, then great, you know, good for you. But it's everybody else who feels a little bit marginalized or isolated or just kind of like, you know, I don't fit in. Right. For whatever reason, I don't fit in. And I think there's something really powerful in, like, recognizing that shared experience and, like, speaking to it and just trying to, I don't know, affirm it or create a sense of solidarity. You know, you're not, like. You're not like, a catalyst for anything. I think, you know, it's like, you're like. Like, I'm using, like, a collective, like, pronoun here. Like, we are not a catalyst. We are like an amplifier of it. Right? We're. We're trying to be like, hey, there's a lot of people like us. We're not the only ones who see the world in a different way.
- [36:19]
A
And speaking of finding your tribe, we have this awesome group that we started getting. It's an ADHD mastermind, and we talk twice a month. And a lot of us in that group. Group, we met at an event, an ADHD event called Chad, and it's for ADHD professionals and people struggling with ADHD who are, like, looking not only for education, but to find their people. The thing is, what we all noted about this event is it was very clinical. It was like an hour and a half sometimes of just hearing people talk, which is like, bro, we have adhd.
- [36:56]
B
But really good keynote speakers, though, right? Right.
- [36:59]
A
You know, excellent speech, but felt it didn't feel right if there was a wrongness to this. We were going to the event because we wanted to connect and learn, but it wasn't, it was like such a traditional cookie cutter, you know, event. And we talked about this in the group and I said, wouldn't it be amazing like if they were juggling or if there was like fire or. So they were like breathing fire and, and everyone was chiming in with, yeah, we should have an event that's. You walked away from this very, like, nonchalant conversation and created the most incredible ADHD friendly, neurodivergent diversion friendly event. It's amazing you did that in less than a year from one conversation.
- [37:48]
B
Well, we did that. And as noted for the listeners, Cass was there as our featured keyNote speaker. Year one coming back as well for year two, which I'm so excited about. Well, it's a need, right? It's something that needed to happen. And I feel like nobody was actually speaking to the lived experience of ADHD and autism and other types of neurodivergence. And as you noted, there are other great events, you know, for clinicians and academics and like, we want to welcome those folks too. But yeah, we wanted to create something that is a celebration, right? A celebration of neurodivergence and, and everything I mentioned before about the sense of solidarity and connection and I don't know, just making people feel special. I think that's the goal, right? To make people feel special. So it was really, really fun to make the first one. We did the pilot project and I appreciate you saying those nice things about it. But we're going to be back for year two and it's going to be better. Like we learn a lot from year one. It's like, okay, what are we going to, how are we going to take this and next level it. So I won't be happy if it's not. If it's like the same thing, right? It's got to be better.
- [38:50]
A
I don't know how you top that because everyone, everyone who walked away said that that was like the best event they had ever been to. And plus we all established friendships. Like I've met lifelong friends at that event, but I also learned a lot. I learned a bit a lot about myself and I learned a lot about adhd. And yeah, it was, it was like a life changing event. So I'm definitely going to put a link to that in the, in the description below. And if you have ADHD or autism or even if you have a family member or loved One go to this event because it's absolutely incredible. And I mean, Chris also had like, a marching band and we had a. You had a petting zoo.
- [39:36]
B
We want to do some fun stuff. Right. You know, Want to do some fun stuff.
- [39:40]
A
It made it feel just next level. We learned the same moves we would learn from like, a traditional, like, conference or event, except it was also a party the whole time.
- [39:53]
B
Thank you for saying that. That's so nice of you. I'm excited. No, I feel. I feel honored to be able to do it. And it's something I really look forward to. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm. We're at the time we're recording this, I think we're five months out and I'm spending like multiple hours a day, you know, working on it together with the team. Obviously it's not just me, but, like, my point is, like, I'm putting a lot of attention on it because I think it matters. And I think, like, we have the chance to really, like, you know, create a true, like, in real life, you know, IRL community that can then obviously, like, spread out and, you know, lifelong connections. As you mentioned, I think you connected with my literary agent there. Right. And, you know, I know you work. I don't know if we can say anything, but you're working, you have some stuff you're doing. We can just cut this part. Sorry, I was like. I shouldn't say that. All right.
- [40:38]
A
No, you met some awesome people there.
- [40:40]
B
It looks like that you met some.
- [40:41]
A
Yes, I met David. This is where I met Jessica McCabe in person. So we actually really connected. Yeah. And Aerie, who I'm still, like, really close with and talk all the time, like, it was just such. It just. Yeah, really, really transformational. It really was fun. What is the overall, like, mission of this event? I said, you know, juggling and clowns and fire breathing, but that's not really what it's about.
- [41:06]
B
I mean, that's a. That's a small part of it. And we do love the. The fire breathing and the clowns and all that. But no, I think the core mission is like, in a few words, it's a celebration of neurodivergence. And so we wanted to create like an in person experience because there's lots of virtual digital resources. That's great. That's wonderful. But I really believe, especially in the age of, like, AI, you know, like, people, like, are increasingly anxious and, you know, what's AI going to replace and how the world's going to change and so on And I think one thing that AI is not going to change is, like, in person connection. And in fact, we want that more than ever. So the whole goal of neurodiversion is to bring people together, like, in a physical location for several days. And we're gonna have, like, keynote talks, which are, like, short and fun and action oriented. Uh, we're gonna have lots of different breakout sessions. So you can go to a breakout session to learn more about ADHD or autism or lots and lots of other topics. Um, we also have, like, parents and partners and friends of people who are neurodivergent. So if. If you're like, oh, I like the idea of this, but I'm not sure if I fit in. Like, it's a very big tent philosophy. We have undiagnosed people. We. We just have people who think differently. Like, that's all good. And so we have all these different sessions happening. There's an app where you can kind of choose your own adventure and like, oh, I want to go to this meetup, or I want to host a meetup. If you want to do that, you can do that too. And then there'll be some different stations. We're going to have, like, a couple of sensory rooms. We might have the petting and zoo again. We'll see. But we're just trying to create an overall experience along with a bit of a narrative, like an arc from start to finish, about what is it like to come into community together and how can we learn together and what can we take with us as we go. And then we'll have a big party to close it out on Sunday night before everybody goes back on Monday.
- [42:50]
A
For me, I think the biggest takeaway I had a lot of takeaways was the ability to unmask, which is very rare, especially in environments like this. So events that you're going to or meeting new people, we all tend to kind of, you know, mask the craziness or the anxiety or whatever it is. But no one was masking. And I was able to really take my mask off, which I thought was so. Oh, that just really struck me. And then you did this incredible thing where you gave everyone in the audience a mask and markers, and on the inside, we wrote, like, our true self. And on the outside of the mask, we wrote, like, how we project or how we mask up so other people see us. And then you hung them all on the wall and that, like, don't get emotional, Cass.
- [43:40]
B
That was fun. Yeah. I can't even take credit for that. Was one of our Team members, Gary Ware, who's like our director of play, and he facilitates lots of fun activities and just interesting things. I think we try to provide something for everyone, you know, so it's like some people like, like high sensory things, high engagement things. Other people really want it to be more chill, and so that's something we want to be a little bit more intentional about. Moving forward is like, let's provide like, a range of experiences across the spectrum and. And let's. Let's see what kind of magic we can co create together. So it really is very inclusive in the sense of, you know, I said anyone can propose a meetup or a session. We're going to try to actually expand that this year. I mean, that's how it was for year one. But we still have, like, various constraints in terms of, like, we can only have so many sessions. Right. But we were going to get creative and try to find a way to actually have more sessions so that people, Anybody who wants to participate in some way will have a way to do that.
- [44:33]
A
I'm doing a session, hopefully on decluttering with dawn from the minimal mom and Dana from the Slob comes clean. Yeah. So the three of us are going to have our own decluttering session and then a meet and greet there. We're kind of just. I cannot wait. So exciting. Again, I'm gonna put all the details in the show notes and I'll also pin a comment on YouTube.
- [44:52]
B
Thank you.
- [44:53]
A
Another one of my favorite things was that we all had badges, so whether we wanted. Remember, of course you came up with this, but it was like one color if we were open to being approached and another if we were like, not right now. So I took two. I took both colors.
- [45:09]
B
Great. Smart.
- [45:10]
A
Yeah. So when I was feeling overstimulated, I really was, because people were coming up and they were like, oh, it's Cass. Can I get a picture? Blah, blah. And then there. There came where I was like, I don't. I want to kind of not do that, but I feel like I'm obligated. I just changed my badge color. Nobody, like, everyone respected, no one approached me. And that was like. That was something so different than any other conference. It seems like a small thing, but it was big. It was really working with how you're feeling in the moment. And I feel like you've done other little things to kind of of work with people's natural tendencies.
- [45:50]
B
Well, yeah, no, thank you for saying that. And I think that kind of speaks to the quality of the. The people who are There, right? Like, it's a little bit of a design choice on the front end to say, okay, we have different colored badges, and you can. Or lanyards, and you can choose. You can also take two, as you said, because the way that you feel now may be different than how you feel tomorrow or vice versa, but then, you know, for people to actually respect it, that. To me, me, that makes me happy because I'm like, oh, we have good people there, right? Like, our community gets it and they understand. So I guess these are. These are all things, like, you know, from a planner perspective, you can do so much, but then the community itself, like, has to bring, like, the other 50%. And so we try with, like, the schedule to think about what is the best way to create the right flow that kind of works for a lot of different people and provides flexibility. We don't want to play to, like, the fear of missing out too much. You know, we want people to feel like, you know, there's a lot you can go to, but you also don't want to be overwhelmed. If you need to walk away at any point, you can do that. There are actually some places where you can go. We used silent disco headphones, which I had never seen done before in this way, where we had concurrent sessions, like in the same big space. And you can wear these silent disco headphones, and you change to the channel of the session that you want. And you can also, if you need to walk away, you can actually walk to the other side of the room, but you'll still hear, like, perfectly clearly because you have these headphones, phones. So that was a cool thing. It was a little bit of a risk for us because I was like, is that going to work? You know, are people going to hate them? But I think it worked. It worked really well. So, yeah, we're trying to be intentional, but ultimately, it's like, you know, the community that comes, like, they are awesome. And we just try to keep up sometimes.
- [47:28]
A
I'm going to put all the links to how you can follow Chris and learn all about you and your book. And I better see everyone listening at the next next neurodiversion 2026 in March in Austin. Which is the coolest. I didn't. Austin's. The whole catchphrase is, like, stay weird, Austin. And it is. I absolutely had the best time. I came back from that event, and I said to my husband, I found where we're supposed to live. Do you know when you travel to every country in the freaking world? I honestly felt in Austin I was like, wow, this feels like me.
- [48:04]
B
That's fun. We'll bring him next time.
- [48:07]
A
I am going to bring him. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. It was amazing, and we'll see you soon. I have to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Factor. Factor Meals are amazing. They're delicious. And if you're like me and you're always on the go and stopping to eat a healthy, nutritious, filling lunch or even dinner isn't really easy. Factor makes it easy. Think of these as delicious gourmet TV dinners, except they're never frozen. They're always fresh. No cooking for you. You just pop them in the microwave for two minutes and you have an incredible meal in literal minutes. And you can choose from lots of options like vegetarian, keto, low calorie. Whatever you're looking for, Factor will have it. Right now you can save 50% off. Go to FactorMeals.com clutterbug50 off. Again, that's Factor Meals.com clutterbug50 off. And use the code clutterbug50 off to get 50 off your first box, plus free breakfast for one year. I just love this man so much. I just love him so much. He's. He's wise. And I think that's one of my favorite things about him. He really does, like, stop and think about everything and analyze it. And the question he asks himself is, am I just thinking this way because everybody has always thought this way and told me to think this way, or is this actual reality? Is this my reality? And he zooms out in a way that I never really could and kind of maps things out. Not just time, anxiety, but everything. Like, think about his whole blog and his first book, the Art of Nonconformity. He asked himself, do I really need to follow these. These, you know, steps in this guideline that have been mapped out and kind of like this society rule, or can I carve my own path? Can I live the way I really want to and still have an exceptional, successful, happy life? And he's proving that he can. And I find that so inspiring because I think a lot of us feel this wrongness, but we're not quite sure what's. What it feels like. And we maybe drown ourselves in a glass of wine at the end of the day to kind of douse that down, or we do something nuts like did as a teen and just like, completely rebel against everything. Chris really has a way of zooming out and looking at the big picture and coming up with an actual plan that makes sense. And I love that about him. He's also the humblest and most kind individual on the planet. Now it's time for my favorite part of the podcast, which is talk to Cas. And we're going to start with a question from Louisa.
- [50:54]
C
Hi, Cass, this is Louisa from Germany. First of all, I want to thank you for the work that you do. You, I'm late diagnosed adhd and I have been listening to your podcast and watching your videos for this year religiously and you've helped me a lot, making progress in my own home, first of all, with the decluttering. But now that I have decluttered quite a bit, I also regularly listen to you to not, not get back in my old habit of just buying stuff. It's really hard at the moment, I have to be honest. It's Christmas time is coming up and I have this huge knack for toys. I love spoiling my kids with toys. I love playing with them, I love creating things, crafting things with them. So I have this vast craft supply, vast amount of pens and stickers and what whatnot. So I guess my question would be how to manage that. So I have seen some of your past videos, they are a bit older on like how to manage toys and how to stay organized with kids. But I would like you to ask to share once more, like your most valuable insights that you've had over the past past and if you have some ideas on how to actively involve kids in tidying up so that it's fun for everyone and that even an ADHD mom can stick to these routines regularly. Because right now, sometimes we have this phase where I'm very, very prone to organize and to keep everything tidy and then I'll make my kids help. And we have these routines, like after dinner, for example, we have to reset the living room. But then I have these days where I just, where I just don't come through with it and then it just stays the way it is and the mess piles up and yeah, I guess I would like some advice on that or if it's just asked too much, if I just have to live with the fact that it will sometimes be messy with kids and yeah, I guess that's it. So some tips to not fall back into the old shopping stuff and acquiring stuff habit and how to keep the chaos with kids at bay. Thanks a lot and keep the good work up. Bye.
- [53:46]
A
Bye. Oh my gosh, this was good. This was also like a lot. So I, I'm excited. So I'm gonna share two tips that I have for you. The first is for the shopping and the impulsivity. I feel you because I also have ADHD and I get so excited this time of year to buy cool things for my kids. But I often then will like forget what I already bought and then impulsively buy more and then holy crap. And it's not even. I have three kids so now I gotta run out and get two more things. But look, now I found something cool. So now I got to get like four more things and it's a nightmare. So what I've learned is the importance of having a gift giving guide and a plan before I start. Which means I'm basically like, just like organizing requires predetermined categories and decluttering requires predetermined categories. To help stay focused. You kind of have to have this when it comes to gift giving too. So I will make a list of all the things that I want to get my kids. So, so a craft kit, a piece of clothing, a new book, some, I don't know, self care things. And then that's, you know, I physically check it off as I acquire the things for that. So having a plan going in is really helpful to stop the impulsivity. And I actually keep this on my phone because I always forget to bring it with me to the store. Listen, struggle is real that way. I know. Oh my gosh, I already bought that. Oh, it totally forgot got and it stops me from over buying. So that's the first thing. And I have a free gift giving guide with my holiday home planner that you can download 100% free. You can go to clutterbug.com holidayhome you can download that holiday guide and in it is a gift giving planner. So I would start there. The second thing that you mentioned is so common when you are on your best day. You guys are resetting your space. So what you're doing is like taking the time to put everything away and put everything back in homes. And it is a lot of stuff shuffling, shuffling it from the pile back into where it goes. But on your worst day it doesn't sound like you have a system. And so I would love you to reorganize for your worst day, which means look at what's naturally piling and becoming a mess and make sure the home for those things are within like five feet. So you may have to get a storage unit with big bins and baskets for your kids toys in the living room because yeah, maybe they're not going to walk them back to their bedroom or the playroom or wherever you store them, they're going to keep them in the room. So readjust your organization and make sure that it's really macro that there's no lids and it's easy to toss things away in seconds so that instead of putting something down, it's just as easy to throw it and have it go away. I think that's really what's missing here in your space is that quick and easy put away. You have to be intentional about tidying up. And you shouldn't have to. It shouldn't always have to be a project. It should be like this subconscious thing that just happens. But it can't be if you don't have the homes being easy enough. So Absolutely. Like giant baskets on the floor where you can toss in stuffed animals works, big baskets for paper that you have to deal with getting a Calyx unit even. I just am a huge fan of those with big old baskets that are clearly labeled for kids toys. Fast, easy systems that you can manage when everybody's tired and just don't want to tidy. Here's a quick note from Teresa. Hey, Cass, my name is Teresa and I've been watching you since about 2015 and I have to say you're amazeballs. I just recently was helping my ADHD teenage girl with her room and we macro organized her entire top of her vanity for these big macro buckets. So she has a bucket for her hair, a bucket for her face, and a bucket for her body. And everything just gets shoved in there, tossed in there, what have you. But it's keeping it corralled for the meantime. So wish us luck. We're going to keep on going. Thank you so much. That's so good, Teresa. Like, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's that, that quick toss away. I mean, when she's done lotioning, she just can chuck it from across the room and it goes where it needs to go. That's the whole point of organization. And I think we've over complicated it because we think it's supposed to be harder than that or more perfect than that. But that is exactly what I would recommend for not only teenagers, but anyone who's just like not great at putting stuff away all the time. Now we have a dinosaur. A dinosaur from. Hello, Helen. Hi, Cass. My name is Helen and I've been following you for an embarrassingly long time for someone whose house is still cluttered and unorganized. But I have a dinosaur for you. I was decluttering my parents house after their deaths. And I found my father's original driver's license, which is not the oldest thing I found. The oldest things that were odd to keep to me were my grandfather's greeting cards from school. My grandfather was born in 1907, and these cards were therefore from maybe 1920 or so. And it was just the cards from.
- [59:20]
B
People he went to school with.
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A
Happy birthday Day, Merry Christmas. And they had somehow been kept for a hundred years. Thanks for everything you do, Cass. Helen. I love that because I have a real hate relationship of greeting cards. Okay. I think they're a scam. I. And, and yep, everybody keeps them. And I will tell you, almost every home I've ever decluttered, I will come across random boxes and sometimes doom bags. Bags just filled with greeting cards. They are a clutter nightmare. And a hundred years, that's too long. That's too long to keep them. So for everybody listening right now, can we all just agree to stop giving greeting cards to people? And when someone does gift us a greeting card, if it doesn't have like a really sentimental, lovely, handwritten note inside, let's immediately put it in the trash. Sorry, Hall. Mark, you're terrible. I just wanted to remind you that the 300th episode is in two weeks. So make sure that you go to clutterbug.com talk to cast and record a message for that or let me know what you usually do or what you like to tackle while you're listening to this podcast. So share a quick little message and I'd love to feature you in the 300th episode. A lot of you have sent in like, what you like to do while you listen already. But I'm also curious listen. I'm also curious how you feel about the tough love. Like sometimes I get mean and I'm gonna tell you real, real talk. Now, I hold back because I've been doing this a very long time and I would love to just reach through your air pods and just give you a little shout out break because your incredible, amazing, free of clutter life is so close and all you gotta do to get there is just say no to the junk. Okay, just say no to the junk. But I hold back because I don't want to be insulting and I'm a bit of a people pleaser, but I am curious if you find it helpful or if you're like, that chick needs a literal chill pill and maybe she should calm down, down. So if you want to let me know your honest thoughts, I'd Appreciate that constructive criticism. I would love to have some. Also, I'm curious how many of you know about the newsletter? So every week I send out a newsletter to my mailing list with the upcoming podcast and the latest like video that's coming out. But I feel like it could be more. I feel like maybe it could be more helpful. So also. Also welcoming, constructive criticism. Let me know what you would like to see in the newsletter and if you even knew it existed and if you're signed up for it. Just all those things. Any way that you can help me help more people would be super amazeballs. Honestly, my biggest takeaway from Chris's Time Anxiety book was that I was using productivity and like my to do list as a way of kind of self soothing my cris about I didn't have enough time. And so I would add things like clean the eavesdrops and dust the baseboards and all of this. Like, I would like fill my to do list with all these things that were kind of unimportant, but then procrastinate all of them because I wasn't dealing with the root issue. You know what I mean? I wasn't actually like acknowledging what I really doing here is overcompensating because I feel like time is slipping through my fingers and I'm not, I'm not, you know, I don't have enough left. So coming to terms with that and, and reading the book and coming up with real strategies means that now I can say, okay, the eavesdrops need to be clean because otherwise in the winter I'm going to be murdered by an icicle. Right? I can make time for that, but I don't have to do everything. I don't have to pack my to do list completely jammed full. I can, can go outside and touch some grass. I can hug a tree. I can spend time doing, you know, playing Fortnite with my kids. And we're just watching Netflix because the new season of Only Murderers in the Building is quite excellent. Like, I don't have to fill every moment of the day because I no longer feel that, like I'm not doing enough and there's not enough time and it's. It's all crazy pants. Um, so, yeah, super, super helpful. Still getting stuff done done, but making time for what actually matters. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you cleaned some stuff today or got something done so you feel proud. And now look, you have the rest of the day to do something awesome. Until next time, my friends.