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Adam Brotman and Andy Sack | Forum 3 | It's a Bird! It's a Plane! Holy Shit, It's AI! Part 2
00:33:51
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Mike Lind
The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the iHear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, iHear everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential, the podcast that takes you inside the.
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Adam
Drama, decisions and choices that go with.
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Mike Lind
Being the head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Lind.
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Andy
Back to part two of the It's a bird. It's a plane. Holy shit, it's AI.
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Mike Lind
Adam, you want that one?
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Adam
Sure. So the. So on the trough point, my first thought is we interviewed probably the leading example of a company that has completely adopted an AI first mindset and practice, which is Moderna, the vaccine biotech company. And they went out, they, they've always wanted to be AI first, even before ChatGPT was a thing like that was a part of their reason for being was to use technology and AI to help solve some of these biotech questions so they could help, you know, cure diseases and prevent diseases. That's their mission. And they've, so they've, in a weird way, they've been AI first. In the beginning, they went out and sought out the leading AI digital transformation expert in the world. And it's not Andy and I, we aspire to be that, but it was this guy named Bryce Chalamel who was working at Google, who had come from bcg, he lived in France, he was a professor, he wrote books, and then he ultimately led the Google Cloud AI transformation group. And him and his team were plucked out of Google to go work at Moderna to lead an AI transformation. And they got a head start on this. They got educated, they ran hackathons, they developed a generative AI champions team. They did all these practices to get 3,000 of their 5,000 employees using AI every single day and to make it not just a random act of AI kind of thing, but actually like a fully blown scaled AI first organization where they were harnessing AI. And what he said to us was, he said, and he said all these people are like saying that is there too much hype about AI? And you know, is it? And he said, he, he said to Andy and I, he goes, we're over on the other side of the trough of disillusionment of the hype cycle, saying, hey everybody, we're over here and it's real. And they claim to be, they claim on their, they, they published a thing online, a case study, if you will, a customer story Online that says they feel like they can do five times the amount of product marketing and product development that they could have done before they became AI first. And they're probably doing the work of 100,000 people or so with a 56000 person organization. And that's when he was saying it's real if you adopt it. The level of, like, innovation and productivity gains are real across every function. That's. That's what. You know, when I think about the question of, like, being on the other side of the trough, I think about what Bryce was telling us about where Modern is at. And I think it was just a good case study to. To keep in mind that, you know, if you, if you would. If you embrace it and invite it to the. Embrace AI and get curious and get literate and really try and infuse it in what you're doing, it can have this profound effect. And you can be one of the companies that has a competitive advantage as this technology is speeding along and the capabilities are getting better and more fascinating. You want to be a company that's. It's like surfing, right? You want to be. You want to. You don't. You want to start paddling now, you know, you don't want to be paddling as that wave in the front. Unfortunately, the wave isn't going to be probably coming from behind you. It's going to be probably coming at you.
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Andy
There you go.
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Adam
Something as powerful as this, you know.
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Andy
So this says you got to start practicing and experimenting right away. And you can't outsource this to, like, one or two people. We got to plug it in and we'll talk more about this in a minute because I want to flip now into marketers. So after AI has whatever it's going to do, but we'll put it in the positive light. Save society, cured cancer, created a startech, like Intelligence Intergalactic foundation. AI. What kind of impact is it going to have on marketing? Welcome back to Holy Shit AI. It's a plane next week. Holy shit, it's AI.
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Adam
I don't want to do all the talking. I mean, it's probably going to impact.
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Andy
This concludes part one of our jobs across.
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Adam
It's a bird. It's a. Some functions are going to get more than others. There are some functions, and I'm not trying to be.
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Andy
There we go.
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Adam
Whatever, you know, Pollyannish or whatever the right word is about this. Like, it's actually like, you know, there's going to be disruption. And, you know, frankly, Andy and I, we're probably not going to be necessary as I nervously laugh about it in a few years. Like, there's a real, like there. It's like every knowledge work is going to get disrupted. As a marketer, though, I think there's a real opportunity with AI because this isn't something that like today you can just like spin up an AI marketer that's just going to. And trust me, Andy and I, we're working on a thing called Spock at our company. It's a AI marketing expert platform where we're trying to see if we can create like a great platform to help marketers. Yeah, SP Okay.
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Andy
And I thought it was.
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Adam
That's okay. But yeah, that's the idea. And the idea is it's not easy, right? You don't just go wave a magic wand yet and say, we don't have AGI yet. It's not just as simple as like, hey, do all this stuff for me. And so there's a real opportunity for marketers to get AI literate, to get in the flow and start experimenting, like we said. Because I think what's going to happen is that personally, that the job of marketing is going to change. I don't think it's going to eliminate the need. I mean, companies are going to still need to do marketing. In fact, marketing might be more important than ever in the age of AI with content everywhere.
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Andy
And, you know, we think so too, at least from our show. And we have one show called will your next best customer be an AI bot? Because if the bots don't find you, you know, customers aren't there running around doing search anymore.
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Adam
Yeah, yeah. Consumer, yeah. So consumer behavior is going to. Andy, maybe we can talk about that. Like, consumer behavior is going to change radically because of this. Which means as a marketer, you're going to. Your job is more necessary than ever. But that doesn't mean your job's not going to change. I mean, think about my job as chief digital officer at Starbucks. Like, there was no such thing as a chief digital officer when I started, right? And it wasn't like the disruption that came from digital meant that people. It just changed the nature of the job. You had to sort of understand how to connect dots differently. And I think that's true now with AI and marketing. I do think it's about getting literate, getting proficient, getting your organization to at least embrace it on some level so you can experiment with it and then figure out how to make your job better, easier. I've never met a marketer that has all the resources they need. So my guess is that the productivity enhancements that I give are going to really be a blessing for in certain cases. And yes, it will be disruptive. And so I think there's going to be either marketing leaders, marketing individual contributors and agencies that are going to realize, like, I need to be one of the. I need to be one of the. The. I need to be in that, in that Venn diagram circle that says I'm experimenting with it. I'm literate and I'm sort of surfing, you know, not. Not somebody who's sort of resisting it.
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Mike Lind
Can I add? Can I add?
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Andy
Yeah, and, and if you can also write in agencies.
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Mike Lind
Yeah, so actually I will. So to the point of like, I'll call it the paradox or contradiction of Sam Altman's quote, that 95% of marketing as we know it will be completed by AGI within five years time, approximately, which would make. Whenever we say that, which would make everyone that's listening to this podcast nervous in there and fear driven about their job. So that's like clinch on the counter to that. If you think about what AI enables, what we talked about just moments ago, AI, and it certainly enables a tremendous amount of content, like every aspect of the multimodal. The text, the audio, the visual. Now, an explosion of creativity allows content to go through the roof at very low cost and to the point where synthetic influencers have been born and they're getting millions of followers. Synthetic bands are forming with synthetic music and they're getting millions of followers. So as you've got that content and explosion of creativity occurring, all of that sort of empowers the marketer and it raises the need for being smarter and more strategic about marketing in the age of AI, because you need to stand out, even the need for it to stand out and be differentiated about. And oh, by the way, we're in the Internet age where the switching costs like TikTok are almost zero. They are zero. Like if you're not, if you're not making an impact within five seconds. Oh, next channel please. Like five seconds maybe. So the people that are able to deploy the tools and the creativity in ways. And oh, by the way, you know the example I used of TikTok and make it viral and making it agenda, the people that understand what's capable, it's much more of a composer. And I actually think that drives a whole new realm of what it means to be a marketer. To Adam's point, the job of marketing will change and I'll go further to Say that like those that can deploy marketing to actually win the game of marketing for their company, which means increased personalization. Ultimately the message that Mike, that would resonate with you would be different than the message that would resonate with me. And working with AI to have the right creativity deployed and the systems deployed in a way that it actually drives sales and you that from all that, you actually have a lot of talk in the, in the venture industry about the birth of. They extrapolate and go, oh, at some point there'll be an individual person that creates a billion dollar company because they just, they just manage AI and afford. I don't really, I think we're a long way from that. However, I think you are going to see really powerful creative teams and I think it totally affect like, you know, the definition of what an agency, a marketing agency does. You know, I think, I think AI really puts a test on them and they're going to need to transform what an agency does. Do I think people still need help in managing all this? Yeah, we talk to business leaders and marketers every day and they're like, you know, they, they go, oh, this is a neat tool for creating a blog post. But they really A don't understand the tsunami of change that's coming. And they also don't understand, even if they do, they start to understand it. A, it instills fear. B, it's like, where do I even begin? And I think there are real, like in our book, we try to answer that, real steps that you can be taking now as a marketer to start understanding for yourself and start planning and instituting change into.
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Andy
I want to talk about that in a minute, but I want to stay in this and say, look, okay, so if I'm out there and I want to get an AI vendor or I want to convince my company to do it, how do I even go about evaluating vendors the right way and then telling non believers or slower, slower adopters how I'm measuring the impact, especially people that want a ROI on everything I do. Give me a. How do I even pick the right vendor and measure the impact if I'm bringing someone in?
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Adam
Well, the. On the vendor side, we get that question a lot and it's a really good question. And I think it goes to. There's a, There's a first step you need to take as a leader, whether you're a marketer or CEO or whatever. Like there's. For organizations, you have to have some in your organization. There needs to be a center of AI literacy and proficiency it doesn't have to be every single employee on day one. And I think this concept of like some, there's a bit of a crawl walk run that might be necessary in different companies, have different cultures. However, there needs to be a center of AI literacy and proficiency in your company. Now you can call that an AI council, you can call it an AI champions team. It might be one person, it might be a 20 person AI council. The point is that group or person or persons has to invest at least, you know, a month or two right now. Like getting AI literate and proficient. They don't have to become experts, but they need to be like listening to the right podcasts, getting, taking a boot camp, doing a workshop, like understanding enough about the contours of AI and the trajectory of it. So that, and staying abreast of it. So then that for that reason, if you get to that place, which is not that hard, it takes about a month or two, it doesn't take, you don't go, you don't have to hire Google's AI transformation expert to do it. It could be a part of somebody's job, it could be a part of the CMOS job, it could be a part of the CIO's job. It does. It could be a group of people that are young and old and mixed and passionate about AI. Once they get to be to a baseline of AI proficiency, it's like riding a bike. All of a sudden you just do it. You, meaning you're up to speed, you understand it, you have an intuition about, you have a feeling for it. And then when you're talking to a vendor, a potential vendor, because remember you're talking about potential vendor. Mike, every single piece of software that's used in the enterprise is going to have, if not already today, every consulting.
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Andy
Company already is saying, we understand this.
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Adam
So every single company, there's not a piece of enterprise software you're going to use in marketing or any function that doesn't have some AI widget or AI copilot or AI assistant or AI whatever. And so you're already having to assess that with all of your current vendors, let alone all these startups are going to come at you with these wrapper apps that are going to say, hey, I've got this cool thing. You just need to be able to go cool, let me take a look at it. And you assign it off to someone on the council or whatever and you take a look at it and you can just, you have to look at like who's the back, you know, do they have who's behind them, what technology they're using? See a demo and you'll be able to sus out like all right, this.
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Andy
And it is, it is practice due diligence versus you know, I read a book and I can do this.
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Adam
Yeah, you and you can't, you can't fake that. But I'm. What I'm here to tell you is that it's not a, it's not like a multi million dollar expenditure to as a company to get to that point. It. But it requires a level of focus and a mindset shift. So in our book we talk about what is the common trait of best practice. In our case studies of companies that have been able to get to at least that first basic step is that they had executive sponsorship, they got some little bit of a center of AI literacy and proficiency going and they effectively, you know, committed to doing that. And then at that point they were able to sort of take that and run with it. And that includes assessing vendors. It includes figuring out what their AI use policy should be and how they should do experiments and how they should do roadmapping and all that.
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Andy
And what else is in that playbook that you would share with our listeners today? Because I like in the console but.
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Mike Lind
Like yeah, I mean in the, in. I mean Adam just talked about the, the AI. The AI console. I mean step one is really is at the C suite level. Get proficient yourself. Right. Like, so we have a whole like you've. This is not. The AI is not the kind of technology that I think you want to outsource. You can't just hire an agency to go do it for you in the way that you could say social media, et cetera. So a. Start playing with the tools yourself and come up to speed. And what. And the way we. What does that mean? That means get a license to chat to ubt probably get a license for your team to one of the large language models and get people get the employees start moving on their own journey of productivity enhancement. And really what that means is getting to their getting through the first 10 hours of use. Because we're finding that in general even still while there's been a. It's been the fastest adopted technology in history. The level of use and understanding is low in the business world. And so a Get. Get proficient which means understand how to prompt, understand what the tool is capable of. Generally get your, get your mind around it, get a council in place and then the next thing is that the council as it proliferates, we basically go okay, like, choose one area where one or two. But choose one area where you think you can have a. Where it may help your business. And whether that be customer support or some marketing task. And every time, like, executives always ask us, oh, like, and people look too early for roi. And I think in general, if, when people do the Pro. The first step and do the 10 hours, if they're not seeing, like, oh, my gosh, this saved me, they could.
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Andy
Have a holy moment. Yeah, they don't have their own holy moment.
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Mike Lind
Yeah, you have a whole. Every person that we've put and said, hey, do something for your fan, do a job for your family that. Or your children or. Or for work. And they try to do that and they turn to the large language. I'm just using ChatGPT because it's the predominant one, but there are others. Quad is fantastic. And now Google is quickly on the rise with Gemini. Choose one, we don't care which one, and start to do a job that you want to do. If you don't, everybody has an aha moment as they're doing, whoa, look at that response. And they also realize some of the limitations as you do that. We say, okay, now choose an area in your business where you can actually have a productivity win. And, and don't look for ROI too early in that process. And the main reason is, like, you have to give people the opportunity to experiment. And, and it takes a little bit of time, but the ROI is so clearly there. I mean, I think that's going back to earlier in our conversation when Bruce from Moderna said, look, I'm on the other side of, of the trial, looking back at the people who are going, is this hyper overhyped? Like, looking back, going, like, what are you waiting for? Because they're seeing 5x kind of productivity gains. It's insane. What. Not in all areas, and not without mess and not without failure. But it's incredibly. The ROI is so intuitive. It's like the gear that you're paying $20 a month per user and you're getting thousands of dollars worth of productivity gains.
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Andy
My holy. My holy shit moment is when I had to design a picture like, that I wanted to make. I want to send a funny picture to a friend, and it could do just about anything in seconds. And I thought this would have taken my. Any good creative team, it would have taken a day. And. And it was like, holy shit. And. And I don't want to let the ROI point go because you. You both said something really interesting. It's kind of like trying to calculate the ROI of electricity. And I want you guys to talk about that a little more because I think the Moderna thing is leading to that. But it's basically saying, don't be crazy stupid about this thing.
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Adam
Yeah, we actually got that quote from Bryce at Moderna when he totally.
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Mike Lind
Okay, that's not our quote. Full quote to Bryce.
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Andy
All right.
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Adam
But to that point, let's talk about roi. And Andy's right. People are too quick to. So it's funny where the word roi, because first of all, it doesn't cost you very much to get proficient and to use the actual tools. So in the strictest sense of the word ROI is funny because you're talking about investing, you know, a portion of some people's time to get up to speed on one of the most important, if not the most important, technologies that are coming into the world and spending 25 bucks a month on some enterprise level thing. And it. And if you use it right, you're probably already going to see. And there's studies that have proven this, if you use it right, you're going to see, call it 20 plus percent productivity gains across every function that's using it. Right. So for starters, the ROI on that as a strict matter of ROI is astronomically high. But that's not even like. That's funny. That is like talking about the ROI of electricity or computers. Because to Bryce's point, because we're not. When what we're talking about, that's just talking about. You just talked about making a picture faster. Not that you can't make a picture right now. It's just that you'd have to. The tools and the people and the time. What we're talking about, when Andy and I are talking to our. We're learning the case studies that we have seen the 20% to 40% productivity gains that could lead to 10 to 15% EBITDA improvements across an organization. That's actually kind of becoming kind of table stakes to the way we think about roi. In the book, we talk about a case study of a company called Suzy that actually the CEO got proficient himself, understood, got literate, and right away was like, oh, I can use ChatGPT in that. In this case, it was ChatGPT to create an unlock in my sales process. So you start to realize it's not just about productivity. It's about either higher quality output or some unlock of something that was just beyond your reach. And so like, that's when things get really wild. Because in that case study, for example, he. What he did, and we talked about this in the book is he actually realized he had all this data. He said, I have all this data. And what he was referring to is that I think he used a sales software program called Gong, I think, and it was transcribing and categorizing every single sales and account management call his team use Slack, right? So he had all these transcripts and he was like, wait a minute, I could feed those into, I can sort of jerry rig using Zapier, like feed those into a to chat CBT and into a program that basically I can take my own domain knowledge of what, what's a good sales call, what's a bad sales call, what's, what's a risk for Churn, what's a high propensity to close. He had this in his own mind because he's built this sales organization over years and he was able to take his own domain knowledge, combine it with the data he had with the transcripts and chat cbt and he came up with a, a sales agent. It's not really, you know, kind of sales bot that would basically take all the calls real time that his sales and account management team was having and create a Slack or teams or whatever based alert system that would allow him to have a much better rate of close and a much better rate of preventing Churn. And he did so without having to like fire a bunch of people or hire a bunch of people. He basically, I think he said he tripled. I think in the book he said, right, and he said he tripled his sales. He tripled his sales without having to add any salespeople, like so, or any account reps, whatever. So it's an example of you think about the ROI in terms of productivity lift. But a key part for your audience to think about that we've learned is that you have your. Every company has their own domain knowledge. And that's something that ChatGPT doesn't have as well as you do. So you got to combine that. If you get AI literate and you do the steps we're talking about, you find that you can combine your domain knowledge expertise of your company with the AI, with the data, right? And that's how you, and that's how you get these unlocks. And that's where the real ROI magic comes from. And that's, you know, that's what we're. So there's both this sort of always on productivity lift and you know, profit improvement and throughput improvement, and then there's these breakthroughs that only you'll be able to come out with. And we talked to a, in our book, our last chapter was with Ethan Mollock, the Wharton professor who's sort of a guru in the space. And he wrote a book called CO Intelligence. He's incredible.
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Mike Lind
Follow.
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Adam
He has a blog, he has a book. He's kind of the guy to listen to in a lot of these cases in terms of applied AI for ROI across a number of industries. And we asked him to read our book and the chapter was, professor, kind of critique our book, tell us where we didn't, where we got it right, where we got it wrong. And as Andy likes to say, as a good professor did, he sort of chastised us and said, yeah, your playbook is great for today, but like, it's not good enough. You should be pushing your clients harder, pushing your readers harder to experiment because they're they only the client, only the marketer at a company really knows their company and can sort of take that. And they should be thinking about all they could get if they can take their AI proficiency. They're the key to these unlocks, which is where the real ROI is going to happen.
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Andy
So I think that is a great way to finish this and get to our traditional last question, because we know clearly we could talk to both of you for a long time, but we're at time and Mike, we're just getting warmed up. I know. Well, look, we'll have you back on the show even though this is a two parter, but we always finish with this last question. It's a two part question, funny story you can tell on the air and, or practical advice we haven't discussed yet. You could take one or both of these, but you must take at least one.
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Mike Lind
You know, you prepped us and gave us warning you were going to ask those questions.
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Andy
We did.
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Mike Lind
Adam, did you, did you prepare? Because I sure as hell didn't.
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Adam
You know, we're like, what are the.
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Mike Lind
Two questions again, Mike?
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Andy
Give us a story. Funniest story you can tell on the air, or practical advice to our listeners we haven't talked about yet?
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Mike Lind
Funniest story that you can tell on the air. I'll, I mean, I don't know.
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Adam
I'm sure you're dying to tell the funny story.
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Mike Lind
Yeah, I don't have a lot of practical advice, but yeah, I'll take the practical advice.
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Adam
You tell the funny story.
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Andy
All right, there we go.
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Mike Lind
I, I, my, I mean, this is not evidence. Not that funny. But, you know, yesterday I got dressed up for work. I Tend to, as Adam points out, I tend to like button down shirts. And I pulled from my closet a silk shirt that I've had a little while. And it's a little dated, but in its datingness, because I'm a little dated in its datingness, it like it's got this very nice silk feel. So like I've got the, you know, the good 1970s look going on. I go to work.
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Andy
Nothing on you.
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Mike Lind
Yeah, with nothing. And I, and I go to work and I spend all day and then Thursday happens to be poker night for me. So I played poker last night and as I arrived, I had my coat on. As I arrived, people were like, oh, Andy, like looking good. Like, look at that shirt. Like, I got a couple of compliments about my shirt. I take my coat off, I sit down and like, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes after being seated at the poker table, the guy next to me says, hey man. Like he tickles my, my right shoulder puts his finger in. It's like you got a little bit of rip. And my entire, my entire seam of my shirt was gaping open at the poker table. And I had played for 20 minutes and not been totally unaware. And I think I had caught the shirt as I, you know, some, at some point during the day, I had caught the shirt and ripped the hell out of it. That's my, A lot of people, A.
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Andy
Lot of people are probably happy that shirts going, going away.
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Mike Lind
So I, as, as a matter of fact, I stood up on the poker table. I have, I had work, I had change of clothes in the car and I tossed the shirt into the, into the rubbish. Sorry I couldn't, sorry I couldn't deliver a funny story, but that's what I've got.
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Andy
That's right. Adam, last to you, practical advice we haven't talked about yet for our listeners.
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Adam
You know, I feel like there's the biggest piece of practical advice that we haven't talked about is it's probably has to do with, read our book. Yeah, yeah. I was actually going to say like my brain is going to like there's a notion of getting, being curious about these technologies and not letting the fear and feeling like you're behind like stop you. And I, I'll be honest with you, like I was, I'll give my story in relating to the practical advice is yesterday I was giving a presentation on behalf of our company to a bunch of school, public school superintendents and principals about what does AI mean? And I don't know anything about education. So I was, I Literally built a presentation that was saying, look, I'm going to tell you what I think I would be doing if I was an AI for school. And I think the practical advice that I want to give is that as I was giving this talk, I wasn't sure as I walked in, I'll be vulnerable here. Like, I'm like, I wonder if this is like, useful information anymore. Like, Andy and I spent all this time studying this stuff and getting up to speed and being in the jet stream, and I, I walked in thinking, I wonder, like, what if, what if everyone, like, rolls their eyes and goes, yeah, we know all that already, right? So I, But I put it aside and I wound myself up and I gave our. My best attempt at a, you know, educational and inspiring and insightful presentation. And when I got done, I didn't have to wait till I got done. You could just see from the reaction in the room that, no, the room didn't know any of this stuff on some level. And I think the practical advice is there's a huge gap. We've sort of talked around this, but I just want to say it directly. There is a huge gap between where 95% of marketers and companies are today and where the. Not even experts, just people like me and Andy who have. And other, you know, folks at companies who have really tried to really get into this and become AI literate, proficient. And my advice is, don't like. It doesn't. You can get there. You can get there in like a month. And there's a way to do it. And, and I'm just saying, like, my. The practical advice is like, listen to Paul Raitzer's podcast, right? Read our book. You know, be curious. Yeah. Be curious and get involved. It's not too, it's not too late. There are people, not just Andy and I, there are people that can synthesize it for you. In fact, the AI can do it for you. You could, you could go to ChatGPT and say, I want you to be my a gen AI tutor and, and spend 10 minutes a day having ChatGPT in advanced voice mode while you're driving around, tutor you on AI. Like, there's. That's. My advice is just get started and realize that you, you probably have a bigger gap than you realize, and it's easier to close that gap than you.
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Andy
I think that is a great way to end the show. So thank you, Adam and Andy, and thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential and thanks to our title sponsor, Props Co. Look for more of our shows on the I Hear Everything network, Spotify, Apple and YouTube, which include your best customer, is an AI bot. Welcome to the new frontier. The rise and fall of Peloton is seen through the eyes of cltv. Using AI for anticipation versus reaction. And is AI an extinction event for agencies. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.