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CMO Confidential
Andrew Medvedev | A Perspective on Business Schools - The Race to Keep Up With the Marketplace
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- [00:00]
Mike Linton
The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential.
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Andrew Medvedev
The podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the Head of Marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.
- [00:36]
Mike Linton
Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being that of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy and ebay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest, Andrew Medvedev. Today's topic our perspective on business schools and the race to keep up with the market. Now. Andrew is the Dean of the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve University, where he has been for nearly three years now. Prior to entering the academic world, he had a long career in financial services, most recently as Managing Director in Morgan Stanley's investment business. As a newcomer to the academic world, he brings a fresh and I think very practical take on how to keep business schools relevant. Full disclosure I am professor at Case Western, so technically I am right now about to interview my boss. Welcome, Andrew.
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Andrew Medvedev
Pleasure to be here.
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Mike Linton
All right, before we dig into the main topic, why don't you tell our listeners how you decided to make the leap from financial services to becoming dean of the business school at Case Western?
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Andrew Medvedev
Well, you know, in some ways It's a journey 30 years in the making. I I walked onto this campus in June of 1994 as a clueless incoming freshman and by some accident discovered Weatherhead School of Management as a place to get a summer job. And in some ways I never left. My undergrad is from here. I met my best friends here. I've learned how to think here. I found my first job through this place. And I was Us Clevelanders know that once a place like Case Western touches you, it's part of you for life. And even though I left Cleveland and went off to do a bunch of things on the coast for a number of years, Case Western never really left me. And so I stayed close to the university over the years. I joined the advisory board for the Dean here at the school and worked on a few things, joined the board of trustees A few years ago and then a few years back, my now boss and president of the university, Eric Kaler, had the idea of reimagining how businesses go out of Iran. And asked myself and a faculty member, a long standing part of the Weatherhead community, J.B. silmers, to become interim co deeds of the school. With me taking a more outside external role and JB taking a more internal academic role. And unfortunately I couldn't convince JB to stave off his retirement much longer. I think his wife had something to say about that. And as of last July I became solo dean. But in some ways it's not that similar from professional services. We run a knowledge enterprise full of expensive and sometimes high ego human capital. And we disseminate that knowledge across multiple channels and instead of counting dollars, we're counting impact.
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Mike Linton
It's not that different. But it is an unorthodox move, isn't it? To get someone that's not steeped in academia to go take over the school. So this idea we're going to re conceptualize the business school, where did that even come from and how did that get started?
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Andrew Medvedev
Well, I think a number of places part of it. Weatherhood was always a bit of a different animal. We were on the front lines of connecting practice to scholarship for decades. Place that pretty much invented executive education, one of the first embas in the country, the place that invented the executive doctoral. All these things were around how do we connect what we do here to practice? A third of our faculty are non tenured track. A lot of them come in years and years in practice. So our titles are equivalent between tenured and non tenured faculty. Such as my title is professor, not professor of practice for example. Right. Those are some of the cultural threads that underpin that deep connection to practice. And if so, if any school were going to do that, we were probably going to be one of them. And I think as rare or unique as it once was, there's certainly a bevy of us from the private sector that increasingly have come into the business world. I think part of it is the job has evolved over time and become not just an academic leader, but also a commercial strategic leader and operational leader. Right. And those are some of the skills that we could certainly pull from the private sector experience.
- [05:25]
Mike Linton
So this leads right into my next question which is on this show us and honestly, many of our guests have asserted that business schools are falling behind the marketplace in general and especially almost in marketing. You know, you're in a unique position to take a look at this tell us the trends as you see them in terms of business schools making students really ready for the real world versus giving them a degree.
- [05:57]
Andrew Medvedev
That's a great question. And listen, if we had three hours, we could run a seminar and have debates and discussions. But I think in brief, I'd probably say something like this. You've got a relatively conventionally established wisdom that dominated the marketplace probably through most of the 20th century. And one, the paradigm has changed, but a lot of the our peers haven't. And there are great deans and business schools out there, and I'm friends with many of them now thanks to this position, that are really doing innovative things. But there's also a lot of folks, I think, that are still approaching education from a content first paradigm that existed, right? Take 3 ounces of accounting, 5 teaspoons of econ, and here is your content mix that makes you a great manager. And here's a degree. And that comes from the industrial economy, right? That dominated the mentor America where specific competencies really would drove home the value. The world's changed, right? Content has become more commoditized, there's more ways and places to learn. And frankly, the differentiation sometimes isn't as great as we'd like to believe, right? And discounted cash flow works the same way in Wheatland as it does in Boston or London. And so. But the differentiation really comes from content and cognitive skill set, I think, to what we really call the agentic skill set. How do you train someone to become an agent of their life, a driver, an accomplisher? So we talk about IQ and eq, right? I'd argue there's something like they call an aq, right? That allows you to measure how are you able to actually achieve the thing and make it happen, something that you want to achieve. When we all hired peopleman asked and we've all sat around the tables and we've all said, does this person get it right? And this is ubiquitous, yes or no, Right? And we all know what that means. People have been around for a while, but what that really means is can does this person understand what we're doing and are they able to operationalize and deliver? Do we think they'll be able to deliver results? Right. That's what people want. And ultimately that transition hasn't been as successful as I think we all would have liked in matching up how the marketplace has changed. So what do people want? They want what they want in every other aspect of life. Personalized. We're living in a personalized world. Education moving in that direction I think gingerly, I think the move to online and experimentation with digital was a good one and I think we've learned a lot. And there's certainly much more innovative delivery platforms today than they exist in. There's still a lot of folks doing the sage on a stage model of instruction, um, which again, in the world of ubiquitous content doesn't work as well as it used to. There's a.
- [08:46]
Mike Linton
Look, this is a really important point and I want to talk about the pressures in here because, because you, you can feel business hiring for. And I will say when I, when I'm hiring, I'm hiring people that get stuff through the company and can manage a project. I'm not waiting for some MBA to come in and rewrite my company strategy or reposition my whole supply chain or something. I need them to drive a project through the company. And particularly in the era where new content and new platforms like AI is exploding, to be able to harness all that and drive it across functions. How, how are business schools even looking at that? Because that is a marketplace pressure that is so clear. And, and, and how do they even address that given their, their structures?
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Andrew Medvedev
A lot of ways I can tell you something about how we're doing this. Right? It's you, you don't learn how to get things done by just by reading a book and just by listening to an instructor. Right. Certainly there are foundational principles of agency. Right. That people need to understand. But nothing beats reps at life.
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Mike Linton
Yeah.
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Andrew Medvedev
Our answer to this is how do you build a lab of life so people can get their reps in before they head out into the real world? How do you create settings that leverage the time that we're together that's so precious that we've all learned during the pandemic of how incredibly valuable it is to be together? Well, let's use that time for the things that we have to do together, like experiential learning. Let's do more casework, let's bring more protagonists in. Let's have give people more chances at actually achieving something. So that's why so much of what we do is in teams. That's why so many of our classes are built around experiential, like, you know, our undergrad capstone, where students work on real projects with real companies where they have to actually go deliver. And this is not a made up case. This is something that a company is working on right now. And they're led by former professional services folks and current professional services folks that have relationships with their network and students come in and do the work. There's no substitute for simulating real life settings and there's only so much you can do unless you engage the whole ecosystem. Right. And so pulling folks like alumni, friends at the school, leveraging the corporate community here in town and the ability to really plug people into a network as opposed to come in and take a class and learn a few things. And here you are, is the differentiator.
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Mike Linton
I think that's right. And the whole thing of the days when you, you know, I started P and G so you could actually at that time control the company with a really well done memo. And what I will say is those days have passed and you have to now make the company do new stuff by using the whole network and all sorts of communication skills. So I, I think that's super important what you're doing there. But one of the things that we talked about in, in the pre show was you have a saying there's a difference between the what and the so what. Share your thinking on what and so what and how you teach people the so what.
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Andrew Medvedev
Oh boy, if there was only an easy button for that. Right. I think the difference is best encapsulated by a faculty member of mine who's a practitioner with a lot of experience in industry, who said to me once, you know, I've hired brilliant people from this university and this university, and he rattled off the list of the who's who and they said they all do phenomenal work. It's brilliant, it's detailed. None of them can tell me what it means. That was the moment that I said this is then, this is the gap, this is the value creation. Right. It's terrific to teach people the tools, but so much of the work is around applications, so much of the work is around context. So much of the work is around value creation. And you can't quite get there until you put yourself in the context of what is it you're trying to do. And again, you certainly achieve that through deeper content, you achieve that through case study, but you can't really get there unless you work on real projects with real situations. And so that's why the push for experiential. And that's frankly what students are asking for more and more. We were talking about earlier, what's the demand these days? Experiential is the demand because, you know, we're creating in some ways more and more atomized existences for folks and certainly in early childhood and college years. And then you're getting companies that are asking for that agentic Behavior. Well, who's going to fill that wedge? Who's going to take a person that hasn't had many reps at commercial achievement and then put them in a situation where the ability to get the thing done is all of a sudden more important? Right. And more importantly than that, how do you do that in a human context? Years and years ago, you could rule through a memo, potentially, because folks kind of did what you told them to do.
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Mike Linton
The human context, eight years ago, too, there was a right answer.
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Andrew Medvedev
There was a right answer.
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Mike Linton
And right now, I think there isn't really a lot of right answers. There's right directions. Because when you look at some of the new technology, it's hard even to put a strategy together. So you have to. You have to do this. This so what thing. But are students actually ready as they come out of high school and Covid and all the social media platforms and remote everything to absorb the so what? As easily as you would like them to be?
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Andrew Medvedev
I think they're a lot more ready if you put the right context and structure around. So one of the things we do here is for years and years, as you know, weatherhat has been the beacon of leadership studies and change management and few ways, we're the school of change. Right? Be it both on the human element and on the strategic digital element, and emphasizing relational skills. Right. That sometimes go by the moniker soft skills. What's the critical piece? How do you get folks to engage in orthogonal or just uncorrelated ways with the world that they haven't done before? Right? It's those magical experiences when people come in and have to deal with the unknown and all of a sudden find themselves in settings that are different. So it makes the magic happen. You know, whether having students come out to the Cleveland Guardians and work with the leadership there around player development to understand how to manage egos and yeah, small setting, or working with a string quartet here in the capital of classical music in many ways to understand what it means to put together different talents into a actual performance. Right. That's not how we think of teamwork typically, certainly. But all of a sudden those interesting contexts really pull out that, oh, how would I do? And then the magic happens.
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Mike Linton
So we've talked to a lot of academics and a bunch of professors and folks. One of the things they say about this is, well, everyone recognizes the need for soft skills and context and the so what? It's harder to teach and harder to measure because you have to really figure it out and experiment with it. What are you doing to Make. I mean, you've mentioned a lot of programs already, but when you look out a couple years, how should the ideal university or the ideal B school be teaching this?
- [16:20]
Andrew Medvedev
Well, you know, you said measure like we've actually done a pretty good job of producing science that actually measures a lot of those behaviors. In fact, we built them into our admissions criteria where the leadership competencies developed by our own leadership biotis, who's the, in many ways the founding father of much of the leadership science today, are measuring the actual leadership outcomes in the private sector. And we've done work how that measured the outcomes for our own MBAs. I would hope that schools would map to see the actual behaviors and be able to test the behaviors that drive success in the marketplace. We all know what they are, right? It's grit, judgment, creativity, curiosity. To what extent are you attracting the folks that are exhibiting those behaviors as opposed to having a, you know, perfect list of credentials matched up to some sort of rubric? And to what extent are you actually helping them practice those behaviors here in the school? Right. You're absolutely right. There's a subset of folks who are naturals who may not need to go to business school. Right. We all met them. They are 23 years old and you know, they're going to be rock stars going forward. You also have dealt with students that you know, will benefit to only a limited extent from this instruction. But it's that middle gap of folks who have those skill sets, but they've never been practiced, developed or discovered. I can't tell you how many alumni I meet with who said, my gosh, this one session with a faculty member in the classroom, and a lot of times it is a faculty member from the group that does a lot of our leadership work, allowed me to discover myself, to understand myself, to really go deep and say, what is my place? We teach leadership at the four levels. Leadership of self, team, your unit and then society. Right. That level of discovery allows people to find their place and get comfortable to practice those behaviors. How much of it is gaining the trust of a student to allow you to allow them to let you into their life and to be able to build that kind of partnership. So it's pretty involved and I think it takes decades and some keys credibility with folks to be able to do that.
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Mike Linton
Hey, and how much do you get input from the companies that recruit and then track the students that go into those companies from their career and then back engineer what they learned? Are you to that level already?
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Andrew Medvedev
Well, it's a great question. I think ultimately if you know, Rule 101, right? If you're not designing backwards from what the market needs, right. Matt and I, right, We been pioneering the discipline here for a while, right? How are we not applying that to what we do in the classroom? So we do a few things. One is we've developed and built up advisory boards for many on our way to all of our academic programs. So this is private sector practitioners who, I don't know, take supply chain, right? 10 or 12 chief supply chain officers at large and mid sized companies that know exactly what bid looks like, that work with our faculty, that participate in the classroom, that think through what kind of projects, that we can deliver the look of the, what we do and say this works and here's how, and help us iterate. And I gotta tell you that the faculty has embraced this kind of help to help us understand where the market is. Our faculty are terrific experts at academic instruction and their disciplines, but lining that up against market direction and where the demands are is essential. We've also done a lot of work with focus groups and gathering alumni and saying, hey, tell me what worked for you? What do you remember the most? Right. Were the things that were the biggest differentiators. And this is our way of saying, how do we build the most intentional business school? How do we build a school that actually does the things that we all got out of our education, sometimes unintentionally in those brief accidental moments. Well, how do we take all that and make it intentional? How can put that at the core? And those are some of the, some of the ways we do that.
- [20:22]
Mike Linton
So tell me how you're doing it. You, you get, you get brought in from the outside about three years ago, you know, into this, you know, and you, you have an insider's view because you've been on the, you know, been advising when you've been on the board and everything else. Tell me how it's going. What are the highest points, lowest points? The biggest challenges give us the inside view of what it's like to become dean of, you know, the B school.
- [20:49]
Andrew Medvedev
Well, never boring. I tell you that I, my spouse may have been under the mistaken impression that this was a 9 to 5 job. I think disabused ourselves of any disconnects there soon after. But it's been in many ways not that different from a leadership job elsewhere where there's a huge external part of the job, right. Where your role is to be the ultimate network developer and connector and aggregator of relationships, right. That help advance the school. And then a lot of it's spent on the operational side. So obviously job one for all of us have led know that get the team right, right. Who's gonna be developing and executing the strategy and who's not gonna be on the bus. And we have to make some tough choices early on. But I'm now working with a team that I'm so thrilled to be a part of that are as committed and passionate and critically understand what we're doing and most importantly why we're doing right. So that hyper intentionality of what is it that we're trying to achieve, what we need to do it and what we have to and how we have to be in order to get there, that was much of the work in the first year or two.
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Mike Linton
So that was all the visioning, the getting the team right, the structure right, everything right. How do you know? Oh, go ahead, sorry.
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Andrew Medvedev
So, so to getting the team and the structure was first and then the visioning part was let's figure out what works, let's take an inventory of what doesn't work and let's take a look at our strength assets, where the market's going. Right. Do the, do the exercise and figure out what's going to make us distinctive. Because one of the things that I think folks struggle with sometimes is what's your value problem? Right. I look sometimes at the messaging of some of the educational institutions and you can swear you could copy paste one for the other.
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Mike Linton
Oh, you can't. They prompt.
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Andrew Medvedev
While everywhere one promises, you know, come leadership, empower this. What is you, what are you actually delivering and what is your right to win? And so for us, right, it's rooted deeply in the fact that we are a incredibly powerful regional community. Right. With strength in industrials and healthcare. We clearly have to be differentiated against those. What's our history around innovation and both digital as well as human capital. Right. Clearly those are the giving, the pillars. It'll be a long time before we build the high frequency trading lab here. But in terms of our ability to compete with the best in the world and be in the school of change. Absolutely. And then our alumni network, I gotta tell you Mike, I been part of many networks. The fervor with which my fellow alumni support the school is incredible. We may not be the biggest alumni network in the world, probably about 25,000 people worldwide, but I come out so invigorated when once people. Tommy, this is exciting. How do I plug in? Right. So taking stock of those assets was the first step and the last step is what we're doing now, which is a visioning exercise that we're working out of the school at multiple levels. What's going to make us distinctive? How do we apply in a given industry? Take healthcare. And then how do we then reconfigure our operations as a school to deliver on that vision? And so that's the work that my faculty and I are doing over the course of this semester.
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Mike Linton
Thank you for that. Can you give me an example of one or two of the things you threw out? Because you said I had to get this right, I had to get that right. I had to discard some things. Why did you have to discard? What's a good example of discarding?
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Andrew Medvedev
Well, let's start with what we had to build. And then we really wanted to make sure we connect more intentionally to the corporate space.
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Mike Linton
Yeah.
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Andrew Medvedev
And high. Right. Institutions, from what I can tell, are very product driven. Right. It's all right. Legacy of innovation. We think ideas first makes sense. But as you know, product is only one of the P's and the government the secret sauce. How do you connect to corporates? How do you find out what they're thinking about and reading and what the objectives are? So we built a corporate partnerships team that actually has a responsibility for being the bridge. We've really reinforced our career advisory team to make sure that it consists of folks with deep experience working with students, but also who understand what the opportunities are on the outside world. We've grown and invested in our alumni organization. We can't leverage this incredible network if we're not actually able to metabolize all of this goodwill into specific pathways for people to engage. Right. It's one thing to go out and ask people for money, but it's so much more powerful if you allow people to self actualize as a Weatherhead citizen and do that. We have taken a closer look at the programs and we'll be making some announcements about that in the near term. But the critical part is to make sure that we spend more on again, as I say, on the. So what on thinking through how does our scholarship propagate in the world and doing fewer things that do not go to the ultimate mission. Like we were participating in gajillions of ranking services. And if a ranking service isn't reflecting the set of values that we believe are to the students, we're not going to do that. We are. We weren't looking at. We were sometimes teaching a very similar thing in multiple classes. And again, how do you consolidate the efforts to make sure you're spending the time and the value add and freeing up time for a lot of the experiential learning. And so those are some, hopefully gives you a sense of what we're doing.
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Mike Linton
So you had to break some things to get that done though, that, that not like everyone's going to give up their class and say, oh yeah, I'll let Andrew teach. This was it to break some of that stuff.
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Andrew Medvedev
Honestly, it wasn't less of a break. It was an evolution. I must have colleagues that get it that again, have that legacy of commercial connection that really wanted to be part of a different way. And I'm very blessed that they've embraced the outsider from Wall street, so to speak, in such a powerful way. So if ultimately faculty wants to succeed, nobody wants to have on their tombstone. I taught for X number of years at an average business school and that's it, right? People want to. And so I'm blessed with colleagues who do want it to matter, who've been not necessarily blessed with the biggest endowment in the world, but who had to hustle and figure out what actually matters to the students and be very flexible in their approach. And so when we came in and said, let's talk about what we're solving for, people said, yes, let's do it.
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Mike Linton
That's good. How, let's, let's go out a couple years. How will you know when you've reinvented the business school, as was your initial charge? Like when do you know when you've done it? I mean, I know you have to keep going forever and there's all this stuff. There's no finish line. But how will you know when you've achieved your initial goal?
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Andrew Medvedev
I think from a external lens. Let's start with that. We're building a problem solving institution. At the end of the day, any institution has to buy a license to operate from society. And universities are no exception. The way we do that here, and the way we will do that is to make sure that large, medium and small players in society, businesses, institutions, governments, look to us to solve some of the most pressing challenges that can be addressed by management science.
- [28:18]
Mike Linton
So I think that's right. This is the. What you're saying is the marketplace will tell me I've done it.
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Andrew Medvedev
When the CEO of a Fortune 500 company based in the region calls her mentor, her management consulting partner, and me or one of my colleagues is one of the first three calls. When faced with a critical supply chain or leadership or financial challenge, that's how we know we won, that we've achieved that level of Thought partnership. When we see that students are choosing us over and over again by not looking at the one ownership game of rankings, but rather saying, I am coming here because I am joining a lifelong personal success network that's going to take care to make sure that's going to be with me for life and will flex and evolve with me because of what my needs are. That's when we know.
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Mike Linton
When I hear you saying, the marketplace will tell me this is, this is, I'm going to look at these marketplace measures. Here they are. And if I'm not seeing up and to the right and all these measures, I won't have done it. Is that a fair summary of this?
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Andrew Medvedev
Fair. Again, if you're screaming in the wilderness and nobody cares. Right. What have you been doing?
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Mike Linton
I'm awesome. You just have to listen harder about my awesomeness. Hey, so we have a bunch of listeners that may be thinking about getting an mba. What should they be looking for? Not just that case, but in business schools in general to make sure they have a good career and a school that matches what they want.
- [29:54]
Andrew Medvedev
I think first of all, look at the rankings. If rankings are important to you or what's important to you as a rankings measure. Right. Really, really find out why is it you're going to business school? Some people go for prestige and it's a status escalator. Right. Others go to self actualize and grow and discover, yet others go to specifically pivot to a different career, right?
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Mike Linton
Yeah.
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Andrew Medvedev
Each one of these has a different pathway and there are schools that probably are better fenced than others with respect to that. Second question is where are you trying to build your life? What kind of industry, what kind of career? And are you looking for a global large scale experience? You're looking to be more rooted in the community? Are you looking to be based in a particular industry? Those have really important answers. And finally, think of are you a relational person or are you more an objective person? What I mean by relational, folks is that people who define life, the relationships they build in human contact, whatever else. If that's the case, go spend a lot of time with students, with alumni, and see if you can pick up on a language, on a common theme that they're speaking and the way they're engaging with the world. So much of life is finding your tribe and your kind of people. And if you click right, boy, what a magical moment that is. And I go there because at the end of the day, it's not about how big your network is or how many crests are behind A school's logo. It's about who's going to pick up the phone to help you and who's going to help you get to the next place that you want to go as opposed to, well, I guess I'm X years old and it's time for me to go to business school because that's what you're supposed to do. Don't do that.
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Mike Linton
I think that is very good advice to not just maybe folks going to business school, but also folks thinking about changing companies. And this brings us to our last question. It's a two parter. You have to pick one part or both, but you have to pick at least one. And it's practical advice for our audience that we haven't discussed yet and or the funniest story here on the air. So you have to pick at least one of these or both. Over to you. Knock yourself out.
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Andrew Medvedev
All right, I'll bite. I'll pick the practical advice one and this one I'm going to go with. There's a lot of things you can say, right? If you're not a college professor and passing out advice, then what are we doing here? That's more in line with, I think it was a Google interview. Like say, say something that the majority of people would not agree with you on. So here's a controversial one. Trust people more than you think you should. I think the world clears at a suboptimal level of trust. Trust is the foundational glue, as you know, that keeps us together as a society and what allowed us to achieve all the things we have. In my experience in life, if you go out on the limb a little bit and extend more trust than you think you should, not stupidly, not crazily, not blindly, but just giving it a try and being a bit more vulnerable and seeing what happens. The times that help you unlock amazing relationships, the times that help you unlock bonds for life and opportunities and networks are so much worth the few times that you do have burned. And so yeah, my unpopular. But for me, essential advice is trust the other person 15% more than you think you should.
- [33:32]
Mike Linton
All right, very precise. 15% more trust. I think that is a great way to end the show. Thank you, Andrew for joining us. And thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. If you're enjoying the show, hit the like button and subscribe. Look for all of our shows on Spotify, Apple, YouTube and the I Hear Everything network, which include a number of B school cases like the Rise and Fall of Peloton is seen through the lens of customer lifetime value. The Budweiser case. How not to manage socio political issues. The Warby Parker case. I can see clearly now with my CLTV glasses on. And the Insomnia Cookies case. The Northwestern Gost model. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.