Bill Zengel | ANA | The Confident B2B Marketer - Are You One of the Few?

Summary

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CMO Confidential: Bill Zengel | ANA | The Confident B2B Marketer - Are You One of the Few?

Date: February 24, 2026
Host: Mike Linton
Guest: Bill Zengel, B2B Practice Leader, Association of National Advertisers (ANA)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Mike Linton sits down with Bill Zengel, the B2B Practice Leader of the ANA, to dive into what it means to be a confident B2B marketer. They explore the results of the ANA’s “Confident B2B Marketer” study, discuss the unique pressures and inconsistencies in B2B marketing, and analyze why only a minority of B2B marketers feel truly confident in their roles. Bill shares practical insights on measurement, data, AI readiness, and how B2B marketing is evolving for those brave enough to lead change.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Why So Many B2B Marketing Studies?

Timestamps: 03:24 – 07:20

• Lack of Standardization:
  Bill emphasizes that marketing is a "heterogeneous practice" with few common principles, making benchmarking and best practices elusive.
  • “There are no common traits or commonly agreed to principles in marketing. ... It’s really what was the last marketer in the door. That’s what the chief of operations hears about.” — Bill Zengel (04:00)
• C-suite Inconsistency:
  Mike calls marketing the “least consistently structured, worst managed function in the C-suite,” especially in B2B. Both agree it's even more variable than in B2C.

2. What’s Different in B2B vs. B2C Marketing?

Timestamps: 04:28 – 07:35

• Heritage of Brand:
  Consumer (B2C) companies have a history of brand-building and clearer metrics; B2B is bigger as a sector but is less valued at the strategic table.
• Marketing’s Seat at The Table:
  Bill notes that B2B historically treated marketing as “marcom” (adjacent to sales), but this is changing as buying groups become more digital and self-service oriented.
  • “The B2B companies are the biggest in the world. 65% of the global economy is B2B, not B2C.” — Bill Zengel (06:53)
• Consequence of Decisions:
  “If you make the wrong decision [in B2B], bad things could happen, including you could lose your job.” — Bill Zengel (07:14)

3. The ‘Confident B2B Marketer’ Study

Timestamps: 07:35 – 13:01

• Study Overview:
  Surveyed 200 senior marketers to identify 8-9 key markers of success for B2B marketers.
• Only 39% Are Truly Confident:
  • “Only 40% of B2B marketers are really in the confident camp. … 39% actually.” — Mike Linton (09:07)
• Finding the Markers:
  Bill likens the process to finding “biological markers” in medicine—the key diagnostics to treat marketing success.

4. The 8 Markers of Confident B2B Marketing

Timestamps: 11:07 – 13:01

1. Measurement: The most critical—ability to show commercial contribution, not just activity.
   • “If you can't report on the outcome of...how you spend your time, I would think your career is in trouble.” — Bill Zengel (11:29)
2. AI Readiness: The need to be ready for AI-driven change; “the tsunami is already at your ankles.”
3. Account-Based Marketing
4. Buyer Group Understanding
5. Channel Marketing
6. Brand and Creativity
7. Data Foundation: Data quality is often overlooked but foundational for AI and automation.
8. Marketing Technology

AI and Data Foundation Deep Dive

Timestamps: 13:01 – 15:19

• “You can't be AI ready if you don't have a strong data foundation.” — Bill Zengel (13:42)
• Bill gives practical advice: “Just get the column headers” for your data sets to get started (14:52).

5. Brand in B2B: Trust and Testimonial

Timestamps: 16:21 – 18:20

• Brand is Trust:
  “The very first thing a B2B company does is borrow trust. At the bottom of any B2B website is a long list of logos … That's what’s at the heart of branding – do I know you? Do I trust you?” — Bill Zengel (17:13)

6. The 39/61 Split: What About the Majority?

Timestamps: 18:20 – 19:35

• Contribution vs. Attribution:
  Bill advises flipping the conversation from “how much did I spend” to “what did I contribute.”
  • “Invert the conversation. Don't tell me about your attribution. Tell me about your contribution.” — Bill Zengel (18:43)
• Confidence is not a personality, “it’s a compass point”—skills that can be learned.

7. Why So Few Confident Marketers?

Timestamps: 21:45 – 24:00

• Short-Term Addiction:
  B2B companies (and their C-suites) are “addicted to leads in the next 90 days,” prioritizing short-term performance over long-term value.
  • “Marketing can only reflect what the C-suite wants.” — Bill Zengel (22:48)
• “Performance Marketing” is a Misnomer:
  • “All marketing should be performance [marketing].” — Mike Linton (23:41)

8. Emotions and Fear in B2B

Timestamps: 24:24 – 26:29

• Emotion in B2B is Fear (vs. Joy in B2C):
  B2B decisions are often driven by fear—risk aversion, job security—making it harder to push creativity.
  • “In B2C, it's emotion-driven and it's joy. In B2B, it's emotion-driven as well, but it's fear ... will I lose my job if this goes wrong?” — Bill Zengel (24:55)

9. How to Navigate and Win in B2B Marketing?

Timestamps: 26:29 – 28:42

• Choose B2B for Opportunity:
  • “If you get in and solve it, you're going to last longer, you're going to live longer ... B2B is a giant opportunity.” — Bill Zengel (27:57)

10. Advice for Leadership: Boards, CEOs, and Marketers

Timestamps: 28:42 – 31:18

• Marketing as Strategy, Not Tactic:
  Study leaders, not laggards—see how the best companies use marketing as strategy.
• Customer Advocacy:
  Take care of current customers and leverage peer reviews to get onto buyers’ “Day One lists".

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On B2B’s Share of Economy:
  “65% of the global economy is B2B, not B2C.” — Bill Zengel (06:53)

• On Brand as a Moat:
  “Warren Buffett says that a brand is a moat. … If you don’t have proprietary IP or you do, a brand is the moat around your business.” — Bill Zengel (20:48)

• On Emotion in B2B:
  “In B2B, it’s emotion driven as well, but it’s fear. … Will I lose my job if this goes wrong?” — Bill Zengel (24:55)

• On Advice to Marketers:
  “Don’t tell me about your attribution. Tell me about your contribution. How much money are you materially bringing to the bottom line of the company?” — Bill Zengel (18:43)

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Practical Tips

• Measurement Must Focus on Contribution:
  Shift focus from budget cuts (attribution) to bottom-line results (contribution).
• Data Foundation is Table Stakes:
  Even smaller companies can start by organizing "column headers" before diving into analytics or automation.
• Brand = Trust in B2B:
  Even without global fame, projecting trust via existing clients/partner logos is essential.
• If You Want Leverage, Make B2B Your Arena:
  The white space is large—success in B2B offers greater impact and longer tenures.
• Get on the ‘Day One’ List:
  Take care of customers and foster peer reviews; that’s how you become a default choice.

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Entertaining Stories

Timestamps: 31:42 – 33:54

• The Trojan Horse Missed in Greece:
  Bill tells a story from the movie business—hundreds of extras, perfect production, but someone forgot the Trojan Horse!
• Burger King Fries Commercial:
  While shooting a commercial, no one knew the number of fries in a Burger King kids’ meal bag. The team resorted to buying fries from every local store to average out a number—only to find out later it was off by one.

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Episode Takeaways

• Only a minority of B2B marketers are “confident,” and this comes down to foundational skills: measurement, data, and AI readiness.
• B2B marketing is evolving rapidly—embrace measurement, build your data, and leverage brand as a strategic asset.
• Confront organizational fear and short-term focus—seek out environments that let you build long-term value and take strategic risks.
• B2B is not just as important as B2C; in many ways, it’s the bigger, bolder opportunity.

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Want to learn more? Visit ana.net/b2b for access to research, frameworks, and resources for B2B marketers (30:24).

Transcript

[Mike Linton]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential,

[Podcast Narrator]

the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with

[Mike Linton]

being the Head of marketing.

[Podcast Narrator]

Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton

[Chris]

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[Mike Linton]

Thank you, Michael. It is great to be here.

[Chris]

Nice to have you. First of all, I have to ask Bill, why so many B2B studies? I mean, what is going on? What is everybody trying to figure out here with all these studies?

[Mike Linton]

Well, so I mean it's a great multi part question. I'll start with why so many studies? Then tell you what people are trying to solve for. So what I've learned is, you know, marketing is actually a fairly heterogeneous practice. Yeah, right. I went to the School of Visual Arts. You could have a business degree. We could be with somebody from Stanford who's working at Google. We're all different. And because we're all different, there are no common traits or commonly agreed to principles in marketing. It's really what was the last marketer in the door. That's what the chief of operations hears about. And the most important thing in any business, well, not the most important thing, but one of the most important things in any business is measurement and accountability and proof of commercial contribution. And that's what we're working on.

[Chris]

And in the B2B space, do you think that like we've talked a lot on a bunch of our shows about how marketing is different and one of the reasons we do the show is it's the least consistent, most inconsistently structured in my mind, one of the worst, if not the worst managed functions in the C suite. Is it worse in B2B than it is in B2C?

[Mike Linton]

I think in B2C like you, I worked on both sides, right. So I worked on Proctor, I worked on J and J, I worked on Microsoft. So I have both experiences. I think in B2C, if you're working with a Proctor, if you're working on Crest, if you're working on Tide, there's a heritage of brand building and I might go work with Coors and somebody says to me, oh, I used to work at Proctor. The conversations are a lot shorter.

[Chris]

Yeah. And there's agreement on. Everyone agrees on the managers too. Sales. Everyone agrees.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah. I think when you get to B2B, if you're dealing with a mining company, the head of marketing could have been not in the minds two years ago.

[Chris]

It could be anybody. But you know, we know B to B is actually bigger than B2C in total. But when you look at the B2B marketing function in general, it doesn't have the same seat at the table that it has in a lot of the business to consumer functions. Am I right on that? And if I am, why?

[Mike Linton]

Well, you're right, but I'm gonna tell you what, I'm gonna tell you why it's gonna change versus why you're right.

[Chris]

Well, first tell me why it exists and then tell me why it's gonna change.

[Mike Linton]

Well, I think, I think historically quite often when people say B2B marketing, what they really mean is B2B. Markham. That marcom was adjacent to sales. And in the old days, the salesperson might say, hey, hey Marco, make sure the banner is straight at the golf tournament and I'll take care of the heavy lifting. That that's completely changed in the last few years. The buyer group has arisen and marketing are the people to address the buyer group. The people who are making decisions are younger, they want self service digitally. That's about marketing, communications, the digital experience. The B2B companies are the biggest in the world. 65% of the global economy is B2B not B2C. Yeah, if I buy a tube of toothpaste and I walk down the street, it's my decision. And quite frankly, if I don't like the tube of toothpaste, I might just throw it out at this point. But if you're buying a jet engine or software service for your company, it's a big decision and a lot of people are involved. And quite frankly, if you make the wrong decision, bad things could happen, including you could lose your job.

[Chris]

Yeah, where a jet engine, a lot of bad things can.

[Mike Linton]

So we're here. The ANA B2B unit is here to change that and lead bring brand to B2B.

[Chris]

Okay, well that's really good background to the confident B2B marketer study. First of all, what does the confident B2B marketer even mean? Tell us about the study, what you did just go wild. Give us, give us the whole design of the study and what you're trying to get to in that.

[Mike Linton]

So the great thing about working at the A is it's like a GPS for the industry or at least a GPS for me. When you see multiple people you respect talking about the same thing, you know there's something there. It's like being on Waze and you see all the red dots, you know something's occurring at that location. So when I moved over from B2C to B2B I asked a lot of people I respect, well, what's the most important thing. And they all had a different answer. So I said, you know what? I'm going to feel the study. So we went to 200 senior marketers, and out of the multitude of things that could be important, they identified these eight or nine key markers of success. And now we're bringing that to our members.

[Chris]

Okay, well, let's. Let's hear. Tell us about the success. And by the way, you're getting your talking points in fantastically already. So. So tell us about these. These things that go with being the confident B2B marketer. And then also, I want to point out, when I read the study, it looked like only 40% of B2B marketers are really in the confident camp. So let's go what it means to be confident. And then we're going to talk about why there aren't more confident marketers.

[Mike Linton]

30, 39%, actually. Right. So, Mike, the story I like to tell is I'm a cancer survivor, and when I was being treated, the doctor said to me, hey, a cell has escaped the pocket.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Mike Linton]

And if you're. If you're anal retentive like I am, you want to know, well, what does that mean? So I googled it, and an adult male has 33 billion cells in their body. And I'm like, wait, you're looking for one cell out of 33 billion?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

And then the MRI can only see the size of a pencil eraser. And I'm like, well, how many cells could be in a pencil eraser? And it's a lot.

[Chris]

It's a lot. Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

So today I am clear of cancer. They call it nsd. No sign of disease. And I'm free of it because they identified the markers, the biological markers that they needed to treat. And in that way, I'm here with you.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Mike Linton]

The confident marketer. What that did is I was at our master's marketing. You know, we represent about 300,000 markers marketers, 1700 companies, and somebody got up on a stage and said, marketers today have to deal with a quadrillion decisions. Plus or minus, Mike.

[Chris]

Right?

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It's one gazillion.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah, you'll give it to me. So we identified through this survey the 8 mark out of those quadrillion decisions you're dealing with. Where should you be focusing your time and energy? So we identified the eight or nine places where marker marketers are succeeding, which, if you're in the 61%. It's a good question.

[Chris]

Let's hear it. Because only 39% of people are Succeeding or are confident. So let's hear, just give us a quick burn on, on those eight. Give us the rundown.

[Mike Linton]

So, okay, so the, the first one is self apparent to me. It's measurement.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

If you can't report on the outcome of what, how you spend your time, I would think your career is in trouble. Yeah, I used to go, I used to go home at the end of the week and the person on the other side of the kitchen door, if I couldn't come home with a paycheck, which was the measurement of my contribution that week.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

I wouldn't be coming in the kitchen door too often after that. So measurement is number one and it's the single biggest issue more marketers face. Beyond that, some of the things I'm going to tell you are obvious, but we validated them. AI readiness, it's, it's not coming. It's here. The tsunami is here. The water is at your ankles.

[Chris]

And what readiness we could talk about. Ready? We could. I want to talk about the other six, but I want to, then I want to double back on what is readiness mean? So AI like measures AI readiness. Give us the other six.

[Mike Linton]

Okay, so and, and there's eight or nine, but I'm just going to touch on the eight. Okay, so AI readiness, Account based marketing, Buyer group Channel marketing, Brand and creativity, Data foundation, Marketing technology.

[Chris]

Okay. I think some of those are self explanatory but highlight, highlight a couple of the things that are like what does AI readiness mean and what does brand mean? Like so our listeners can write themselves into the story. And then I want to go back to the 3961 split.

[Mike Linton]

Okay, so AI readiness for anybody who pays attention is obvious, but what does that really mean? Right. That's really what we want to peel back. So I think there are two or three ways you could look at it. The first way we had Adobe present not too long ago and they talked about the way AI impacted how you put together your marketing or marketing materials. The way we look at it in this study and we're doing a part two, so shout out to any of your listeners who are in marketing today. We're looking for volunteers if they want to help. But part two of it is you can't be AI ready if you don't have a strong data foundation. If your data isn't organized, you can't automate the process, which is what AI is looking to do. So data foundation and AI readiness are closely linked and the data foundation is often overlooked.

[Chris]

Right. And we've had A couple folks on talking about AI saying it's not the by the business intelligence stuff that you need here. You need this AI ready in a database that you can actually use it. Right.

[Mike Linton]

So, so you know, because I feel like we're friends, I'm going to give your listeners a little secret.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Mike Linton]

Or there are a lot of companies, a lot of companies that are not proctor that I call them mom and Pop. But, but mom and pop could be pretty big.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

And they're, they're running off Microsoft Excel and spreadsheets and the data is not talking from email to the CRM, from CRM to the sales stack. You did a webinar last week. Where's the data from that? So I worked with a company where we went to unpack a data set. I won't tell you the company I worked at. I had hundreds of thousands of records. I had hundreds of data points per record. And the very respected gentleman in the industry said just give me the column headers. If you give me the column headers to the sheets, I can help you unpack everything. So that's a little for the companies that don't have a billion dollars to spend. Just get the column headers and then get somebody in who knows what they're doing.

[Chris]

Let's take a short break for a

[Mike Linton]

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[Podcast Narrator]

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[Chris]

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[Mike Linton]

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[Chris]

Now back to our episode with Bill Zengel. Okay, let's, and let's talk about what brand means especially in B2B which is a wild card for, for B2B. A lot we've had a lot talking about, you know, the gumball machine is broken.

[Mike Linton]

You know what it, it's fascinating, Mike. I, I listened to one of your early shows and I, I, well I listen quite a few. So, so I had a company, Black Rocket Productions. It was basically B2B2C. We, we taught kids how to make video games. But we worked through colleges and somebody came on. I'll tie back to in a second. Somebody came on your show and said B2B will never spend money on branding. And that. I wouldn't argue with that gentleman because I think their wallet is a lot thicker than mine.

[Chris]

Y.

[Mike Linton]

But I disagree with that. The very first thing a B2B company does is borrow trust. And at the bottom of any B2B website is a long list of logos of people they work with. And that's implied in inferred trust. And that's what at the heart of branding. Do I know you? Do I trust you? And you may not have heard of my company name, but you see those logos across the bottom and you say, I did hear of that and I do trust them. So it's projected trust.

[Chris]

Yeah, look. And it's essentially a testimonial because you usually have to get agreement to use the logo as well. So. So we have these things, these eight things. But your study says only 39%. 39% of B2B marketers are in the camp of being confident and having these things. Tell us about the other 61 and then tell us. Give us some honest test questions. Listeners can say, am I. Am I confident or am I not?

[Mike Linton]

I love it. So I'm just going to say, Mike, it depends. Do you look at the glass as half full or half empty?

[Chris]

Half full. Guy, I'm doing this show with you,

[Mike Linton]

So 39%. I look at it and say, that's a good number. And you might disagree. I think marketing does a really great job of shooting itself in the foot. Okay, so what. What's the first thing any marketer says about the money they spend? They talk about that they spend it. They refer to marketing as a cost. Number. One thing I hear people say is, oh, my budget's been cut. I say, invert the conversation. Don't tell me about your attribution. Tell me about your contribution. How much money are you materially bringing to the bottom line of the company? And let's start there. So that would be my first statement about measurement. It's about contribution versus attribution. Every marketer I know says, oh, my media budget got cut. I lost two people. Who cares? Tell me how you're helping the company grow so the marketers who are successful and are confident. And we don't look at confident as a personality attribute. We look at it as a compass point.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Mike Linton]

So you can learn. And. And thank God for the other 61%, because that's why the ANA is here.

[Chris]

Okay, so. So wait, we've done a bunch of shows like why Marketers should Speak Finance. You know, why you should actually be able to talk to the company about outcomes versus other things. We had a bunch CEOs and CFOs on what percent of marketers can really talk about contribution versus attribution, as you put it, really in the B2B space. I mean, honestly, it's very.

[Mike Linton]

It's very small. And that's what we're looking to do is educate, take. So what's what. Who's the biggest manufacturer in the United States of America? I know you know the answer. It's Apple. Apple makes more product that they happen to make it in China or someplace else. But the biggest manufacturer in the United States is Apple. Apple's pretty big in B2B. B2C, right?

[Chris]

Yeah, huge.

[Mike Linton]

Warren Buffett says that a brand is a moat. Right. Right. After intellectual property, a brand is the second thing.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

If you have proprietary IP better. But if you don't have proprietary IP or you do, a brand is the moat around your business. So you look at the. If you look at brand finance. We were just on the phone. They have the top 500 brands in the world. Yeah, the top five. Nvidia.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

Google Meta app. They're all B2B brands.

[Chris]

Google.

[Mike Linton]

We. We look at Google and Meta as media companies because we work in Advertising. They're B2B companies. So what we're looking to do is reposition brand as a growth driver within B2B companies and look at the companies that are doing it well and the marketers that are doing it well and to kind of spread that gospel in frameworks for the rest of the membership.

[Chris]

If I. But Bill, if I go back to. And not to. Not to pound on the B2B thing, even though this is a B2B show. If I go back to the show we did with Tom Stein and Jan Schwartz, they were talking about the Brand to Demand study, which said 75% of marketers aren't doing what they think they should be doing, and 80% think their creative needs improvement and they think brand and demand are disconnected. Why aren't more people raising the roof on this? Given the study and given the data,

[Mike Linton]

I. Mike, I love it. And just tell Jeff, here's the short. You can just cut it right here because you just nailed it. So I was at a members only conference where the Brand to Demand study was presented. And a company that you and I both know the brand name very highly Regarded got up and put up a chart and it said $319 cost, customer acquisition cost that was in the middle of the chart at the top of the chart was $798. And we asked the company, well, you must be spending $319 on your customer acquisition cost. And they said, no, we're not. We're spending more and they're spending more because companies, not marketing companies, are addicted to leads and they're addicted to leads in the next 90 days versus taking the long view. So marketing can only reflect what the C suite wants. So that's one. So performance marketing, short term focus. Short term focus. And think about the name performance marketing, which is the last 20 years of our industry.

[Chris]

They out market, not short called performance marketing the biggest misnomer. And he said it was great bad marketing because all marketing should be performance, Right, Exactly.

[Mike Linton]

They out marketed brand, right, because everybody wants performance marketing. But it's all going away with zero click and large language model and generative engine optimization. So what everybody's been addicted to for the last 20 years, you better get off it because, well, John Miller did

[Chris]

a whole show with us called the Gumball Machine is Broken. Why MQLS should be Tossed. But you're telling me, but you're telling me here. And this study, you know, the brand to demand thing is proving it. And in some sense the confident B2B marketer thing proves it too. People are still very slow to change in spite of all the research. Is that, is that fair?

[Mike Linton]

They're slow to change because it's what management wants. And I want to give you. This is like the third or fourth secret I'm giving you because I want to be asked back, Mike. So let me give you the. Let me give you the other secret, right? So people talk about creativity. The number one emotion is just as important in B2B as it is in B2C. But the emotion in B2C is often joy, right? If I brush my teeth, my teeth are whiter. I feel more socially adroit, whatever it might be.

[Chris]

Yeah, you look better on the podcast.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah, exactly. Well, thanks, Chris. Or whatever toothpaste I use. We've got a lot of members. I know, I know, but I got to think of the full membership. I love Colgate just as much and all the other brands. So in B2C it's emotion driven and it's joy often in B2B, it's emotion driven as well, but it's fear. So what influences a B2B person making a decision? The emotion is will I lose my job if this goes wrong? And if you had Jan and Tom on, I would imagine that Jan would have mentioned that because he did. Okay, so think, think about. You're, you're worried.

[Chris]

Well, and also a lot of times you have a slow purchase cycle. So.

[Mike Linton]

Well, let's just stay. I mean, one of the theories is you have a slow purchase cycle because so many people are involved. But let's just stay with the emotion before we go someplace else. So you're afraid. You're afraid. That's the emotion. You're afraid you would lose your job. Then people say, let's be creative. Creativity is about taking a chance. It's incongruous with the emotion of fear. So people tend to be fairly conservative while they're being creative. And those two words really are at odds with each other. Now that, that said, there's some great B2B creative out there. There's some killer B2B creative in the space.

[Chris]

But Bill, if I, if I read between the lines of everything you said, the companies that actually go out and take these risks and make moves over a long enough time horizon, they are going to win. But the question is, if I'm a marketer, how much time horizon do I really have in this space? And how do I, if I'm looking for a job or someone is trying to hire me, how do I figure out which company is going to give me a chance to do this? Because if I do this, it's a giant proof point on my resume. How do I actually do this? Because you said what's here. So here's what I'm taking away. What's in the way of marketing progress is 1. Fear. 2. Short term ITIs or results. 3, it's always easier to do what is the company wants you to do than what's right for the company. How do I pick the right company for me?

[Mike Linton]

So I want to take everything you just said and stand it on its head. This, this, the confident marketer is about hope. It's not. But if you're making that decision about where do you go, yeah, I think you've had Richard Sanderson on your job. B2B CMOs live longer.

[Chris]

Yeah, they do.

[Mike Linton]

So, so if you're trying to make a decision for your career on where to go, B2B is the place you can make your mark. Because brand there's unlocking $1.9 trillion in brand value hidden inside B2B companies. So it's a huge white space. If you're a marketer Second is if you get in and solve it, you're going to last longer, you're going to live longer. And more and more. We're seeing work around, training and workshops around strategic B2B. How can you price for success, things that you would expect from a B2C marketer. So I, I look at it very much. B2 bit. I'm here because B2B is a giant opportunity.

[Chris]

If, if I'm looking at this, it used to be a lot of B2B marketing was driven by sales. Sales would control it. You know, ask for stuff. A lot of our guests have said that that whole funnel has collapsed. The MQL are done. What would you tell B2B leadership to actually be doing and testing right now? And I don't mean just the marketers, I mean the B2B boards, the B2B CEOs, what should they be doing and testing to make sure they don't get passed by their competitors that are really using more marketing as a strategic weapon versus an aid to sales.

[Mike Linton]

So what I'd be saying is look at the leaders in the space because they're leveraging marketing as a strategy, not as a tactic. I'd say look at what the investment community values, because the investment community is pouring over those 10Ks and they want to see more than just revenue. They want to see the source of the revenue. And a lot of times that's marketing. The third thing I would really encourage people to consider is when I mention brands like Apple, Google, Amazon, would we trade places with Amazon? What is Amazon's logo?

[Chris]

Yeah, it's the little arrow.

[Mike Linton]

It's a smile. It's an upward smile. Whose smile is that? That's the customer smile. So I would encourage your listeners, I would do this as compliments to you, to go to ana.netforward/b2b. We have a. I was a direct marketer at one point. Mike. We have a.

[Chris]

And if you call now, if you get a cheese straightener.

[Mike Linton]

No, because there, there's plenty of work in the space and I think people are so busy they don't read it. So in addition to the great work that Jan's doing with us, in addition to the great work Tom's doing with us, we have a report. It's a little dusty maybe, but it's called a Google Day One report. And they did it with Bain. And there's a Day one list. Despite the long life cycle, despite all the systems, despite all the facts, buyers have a list the day they start. And it's called a Day one list. And the way you get on that list is peer reviews to one of the ways. Peer reviews. And it's customer reviews. So one of the best things you can do to acquire new sales is take care of the customers you have now.

[Chris]

Got it. All right, this is getting us towards our last question, which, you know, because you've listened to all our shows, we appreciate that it's a two parter. You can take one or both, but you must take at least one funniest story you can tell on the air and or practical advice we haven't discussed yet. Yours to pick one or both.

[Mike Linton]

Well, I feel the whole show was practical, so I'm gonna go with funny. So we love that.

[Chris]

We love funny at CMO Confidential.

[Mike Linton]

So I worked in the entertainment industry for a number of years and I worked with a producer. And production companies are no different than anybody else. They look at trends. So at the time they used to call it a sandals and sun was hot. Right. Like the Odyssey is coming out next summer. Right. There will be a flurry of sun and sandal pictures after Christopher Nolan's Odyssey hits in, you know, on the big screen. So producer friend of mine flew to Greece and he got there hundreds, if not thousands of extras. And they were making a movie about the Trojan War. Okay, swords, Swords, sandals, shields, beautiful women, everything. But they forgot the Trojan horse. And then I got a second one for you.

[Chris]

All right, we'll take it.

[Mike Linton]

I worked on Burger King when I was a writer and we launched the Burger King Kids Club. And we did. At the time, McDonald's brand was a little higher value than Burger King. So we co branded with companies that had high brand value. So we worked with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. We sold more Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle toys than any retail I've in a year. We go out to la, we're shooting a commercial, we're out there for a month. Everything's great until it comes to the product shop. How many french fries go in the bag? And nobody knew. And it was a Saturday and we could not reach any executive. So we went out to I don't know how many stores that we decided would be an average.

[Chris]

Yeah, you bought all the Burger King fries you could buy, but from every store.

[Mike Linton]

Every store. And I think we arrived at that time with the number 32, not 33, not 31. But then we got a call from the executive. It was 33. After all that work.

[Chris]

Well, you know, it just goes to show, within one standard deviation, you guys counted the fries correctly. And I'm sure you had. You know, usually there's a lot of food at shoots and you guys probably doubled that up. So that those are two really good stories. Bill, thank you for joining us. And thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. If you're enjoying the show, please like share and subscribe. New shows drop every Tuesday and you can find all of our almost 100 over 160 shows on Spotify, Apple and YouTube which include why can, can't the Truth behind the curtain and B2B marketing. Colonel Mustard in the study with the Job Spec How Board Design Shortens CMO Lifespans and an update from the Front Lines of AI A Perspective from Spock on the Bridge. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential. When is the last time you researched something on a website? If you're like most people, AI did that work for you. And that raises a question. If AI is doing the work, what is your website really for? This behavioral shift means AI bots are becoming your most important new visitors. A challenge our sponsor, Scrunch, is taking head on. Scrunch is the customer experience platform that helps you understand how AI agents experience your site, when and why they show up, and what's blocking them from being retrieved, trusted or recommended. Scrunch shows you the content and citation gaps and technical blockers and helps you fix them so your brand shows up when consumers start with AI because your most important site visitor might not be a human. For our listeners, Scrunch is providing a free website audit that uncovers how AI sees your site and how you're showing up in AI versus the competition. Run your site through [e-mail] CMO.