Brand U - Building Your Personal Brand as a Marketing Leader | Kip Knight | CMO Coaches Founder

Summary

CMO Confidential – "Brand U: Building Your Personal Brand as a Marketing Leader"

Host: Mike Linton
Guest: Kip Knight, Founder of CMO Coaches
Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, host Mike Linton sits down with veteran marketer and executive coach Kip Knight to explore the art and strategy of building a personal brand as a marketing leader. They dig into the heightened importance of personal brand in the age of AI, break down the critical framework for brand development, discuss the nuances of executive presence and vulnerability, and offer tactical networking and career advice for CMOs (both aspiring and established). Rich with real-world stories, leadership principles, and immediately actionable tips, this episode demystifies what it takes to become— and remain— a respected, trusted marketing leader.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Critical Importance of Personal Branding for CMOs

• Intentionality Matters: "Great brands are never accidental. And I think great personal brands are also never accidental." – Kip Knight (03:13)
• Trust and Authenticity: The two core pillars of an enduring brand—personal or corporate.
• Amplification in the Digital Era: Social media, podcasts, and AI-driven recruitment have made personal branding more visible and more essential than ever before.
  • "In that crowded space, it's both an opportunity and frankly, a threat. Because if you're a shrinking violet as a CMO...they've got to know your brand." – Kip Knight (05:56)
• The "Elizabeth Holmes Syndrome": Warning against trying to be something you're not. Authenticity and uniqueness are more sustainable than mimicry. (04:23)

Timestamps

• [03:09] – Why personal branding is critical
• [05:27] – Personal branding in the age of AI and digital visibility

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2. Personal Brand Development Framework

A. Self-Assessment

• Use objective feedback: 360 reviews, team feedback, assessment tools (e.g., Working Genius, Myers-Briggs).
• "You can't read the label from inside the bottle." – Kip Knight (07:44)
• Push beyond self-delusion: "That lack of objectivity will likely not help them at all." – Mike Linton (10:11)
• Be honest about ambition and proof points—are you actually developing new skills, or just scaling the same tasks?

B. Brand Positioning

• Synthesize feedback to clarify your "superpowers" and what makes you unique on the executive market.
• "I'm really good at generating new ideas... What I'm lousy at is filtering those ideas." – Kip Knight (15:05)
• Recognize both strengths and weaknesses and seek complementary partners.

C. Brand Activation

• Bring your strategy to life through consistent actions, leadership style, and communication.

Timestamps

• [07:39] – Brand framework introduction
• [08:09] – Tools and approaches for honest self-assessment
• [14:30] – Translating self-assessment into brand positioning

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3. Executive Presence & Leadership Mandate

• Executive presence is the #1 coaching request Knight receives—often from bosses of CMOs.
• Leadership is about confidence, clarity, and the willingness to make tough calls.
  • "Who wants to follow somebody into battle and they're going, 'Well, I guess we gotta do this.'" – Kip Knight (16:55)
• IQ, EQ, and CQ:
  • IQ: Table stakes for CMOs.
  • EQ: Emotional Intelligence—reading the room, empathy, resolving conflict.
  • CQ (Curiosity Quotient): The relentless drive to learn and adapt.
    • "If you can show some vulnerability, you will be amazed at the loyalty of your team..." – Kip Knight (19:25)
• Emphasize both confidence and vulnerability (truth-telling), especially in crisis.

Timestamps

• [14:21] – Executive presence and imposter syndrome
• [16:31] – Executive presence and what bosses really want
• [19:11] – The role of vulnerability vs. truth-telling

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4. Crisis Leadership & Personal Brand Resilience

• People remember how leaders act during crisis, more than day-to-day actions.
  • "Your team will not remember a lot of specific things. They will remember the crises moments very clearly and that will follow your brand around." – Kip Knight (21:27)
• Lasting impressions are formed by authenticity and trust during tough times.

Timestamps

• [19:50] – Handling difficult situations and the impact on personal brand
• [21:27] – The legacy of crisis management

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5. Role Models, Principles & Company Culture

• As you ascend in leadership, people study not just your words, but your behavior, mood, and consistency.
  • "You are the role model now. And that is something as a leader that you've got to constantly keep in mind because they are studying not only everything you say and write, but everything you do." – Kip Knight (23:11)
• Company culture is shaped by stories told about leaders when they’re not present.
• Find positive and negative role models both inside and outside the company. Learning from bad bosses is just as instructive as learning from the good ones.
  • "Crises does not build character, it reveals it." – Kip Knight (26:38)
• Memorable leaders and their core principles stick with teams well beyond their tenure ("disagree and commit," "stay in your lane", "show me the math").

Timestamps

• [22:43] – Role models, personal principles, and culture
• [23:11] – Being observed as a leader
• [26:38] – Role models, setbacks, and character

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6. Marketers as Business Integrators

• Marketing leaders should act as connectors within organizations, integrating functions to respond holistically to new challenges (e.g., GenAI adoption).
  • "Make sure if you're doing a big initiative...that the company has a chance to join it versus just execute it." – Mike Linton (30:50)

Timestamps

• [29:16] – Marketers as business integrators

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7. Practical Networking Advice

• "It's not what you know, it's who you know"—but you need both.
• Three key tips:
  1. Start every call with, 'How can I help you today?'—get to the point and save everyone’s time.
  2. Warm introductions only: Never introduce someone without checking with the recipient first. Responding to warm intros is core to professional trustworthiness.
  3. Be a giver as you rise: Senior leaders should expect that networking becomes less transactional and more about helping the next generation.
  • "Those people that are authentic and trustworthy answer their emails if they get a warm introduction." – Kip Knight (33:06)

Timestamps

• [31:20] – Networking best practices

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8. Actionable Final Advice: The Handwritten Note

• Never underestimate the impact of a handwritten note on high-quality stationery.
  • "Never underestimate the power of a handwritten note on high quality stationery." – Kip Knight (34:19)
• Much more meaningful than an email—people remember and display them.
• "[Email] is nowhere close [in impact]." – Kip Knight (35:21)

Timestamps

• [34:15] – Final tip: handwritten notes
• [35:35] – The memorable effect of personal notes

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Notable Quotes

• Kip Knight:

  • "Great brands are never accidental. And I think great personal brands are also never accidental." [03:13]
  • "You can't read the label from inside the bottle." [07:44]
  • "As you age, as you get to more and more senior positions, obviously you're going to have to be selective in terms of how much this you're going to want to do for others. But you have to accept the fact that you're going to be much more of a giver and less of a taker." [33:13]
  • "Crises does not build character, it reveals it." [26:38]
  • "Never underestimate the power of a handwritten note on high quality stationery." [34:19]

• Mike Linton:

  • "That lack of objectivity will likely not help them at all." [10:11]
  • "People aren't going to hire you based on your belief. They're going to hire you based on the proof point of what you've done." [13:47]
  • "Make sure if you're doing a big initiative in particular, that the company has a chance to join it versus just execute it." [30:50]

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Memorable Moments

• Kip’s metaphor of “reading the label from inside the bottle” to illustrate the blind spots in self-perception (07:44).
• The discussion about the enduring impact of leadership actions during company crises, and how it “follows your brand around” (21:27).
• Humorous yet spot-on examples showing why marketing leaders need to “be on” at all times—even at the grocery store (24:34).
• The impassioned plug for handwritten thank-you notes, including anecdotes of people displaying such notes years later (34:15–35:45).

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------|------------------| | The importance of personal branding | 03:09 – 06:44 | | Brand development framework | 07:39 – 14:14 | | Executive presence, vulnerability, & leadership| 14:21 – 22:27 | | Role models & culture | 22:43 – 29:04 | | Marketers as business integrators | 29:16 – 31:07 | | Networking advice | 31:10 – 33:55 | | Handwritten notes & final advice | 34:15 – 35:57 |

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Final Thoughts

Mike and Kip’s candid conversation makes clear that being a successful CMO goes far beyond numbers and campaigns. It’s about being deliberate with your personal brand, investing in self-awareness, acting with integrity during tough times, and consistently building connections and goodwill. Whether you’re already in the C-suite or aiming for it, their advice is as actionable as it is authentic: own your story, seek the hard truths, act as a role model, and always—ALWAYS—send the handwritten note.

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For marketing leaders, this episode is a masterclass in leadership, brand, and legacy.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential.

[Narrator]

The podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the Head of marketing. Hosted by 5 time CMO Mike Linton.

[Mike Linton]

Typeface helps the world's biggest brands move from business brief to fully personalized campaigns in hours, not months with its Agentic AI marketing platform. They are the first enterprise platform with Agentic AI marketing workflows designed to instantly automate work that used to take weeks. With Typeface, one campaign scales into thousands of personalized experiences across ads, email and video while staying true to your brand. The company's AI native platform integrates seamlessly into your martech stack and marketing workflows and includes enterprise grade security. Adweek named Typeface AI Company of the Year. Time Magazine featured them as a best invention and Fast Company called them the next big thing in tech. See how major brands like Asics and Microsoft are transforming marketing with Typeface. Learn more at Typeface AI CMO welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them.

[Kip Knight]

To CMO Confidential CMO Confidential is a.

[Mike Linton]

Program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Clinton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest Kip Knight. Today's topic Brand you building your personal brand as a marketing leader. Now Kip is the founder of CMO Coaches which provides executive coaching and hands on leadership for senior marketers. Previously he was the CMO of Taco Bell and President of H and R Block US Retail. He currently works with several startups and as a coach and as a business advisor.

[Kip Knight]

He's coached over 200 CMOs and full disclosure, Kip and I worked together at.

[Mike Linton]

P and G a little bit ago.

[Kip Knight]

I've been an instructor in CMO boot camp so I consider him and he is without a doubt a CMO Confidential og. This is his fourth appearance on the show. Welcome back Kip Mike.

[Guest Expert]

Pleasure to be here. Looking forward to a great conversation today.

[Mike Linton]

All right, let's just jump into it.

[Kip Knight]

Start.

[Mike Linton]

Let's start with the fundamentals. You know when you talk about personal.

[Kip Knight]

Branding and a personal brand.

[Mike Linton]

Why do you think it's so critical today?

[Guest Expert]

Well, Mike, we've both worked on a bunch of brands and great brands are never accidental. And I think great personal brands are also never accidental. And one thing I hope the listeners get out of today's conversation is really think seriously about what is your brand out there in the marketplace. And again, using development of brands as a criteria. Two critical things you've got to have on any brand you work on is trust and authenticity. And think about people you admire in the business world or CMOs that you admire. Do you trust them like I do? And do you think they're authentic?

[Mike Linton]

I do.

[Guest Expert]

And think of ones that you are not. So such a big.

[Kip Knight]

Ask me more questions. I'm going to say badgering the witness.

[Guest Expert]

Well, I'm going to, I'm going to ask, but I think I know the answer to. So I feel somewhat sorry for Elizabeth Holmes. But would you trust Elizabeth Holmes?

[Kip Knight]

No, I would not.

[Guest Expert]

Do you think?

[Kip Knight]

Yes, Elizabeth Holmes is the bad blood protagonist who was the Theranos woman and.

[Guest Expert]

Currently serving at the time in a federal penitentiary? I think so. The Elizabeth Holmes syndrome is when you're trying to be something you're not. Mike, if you started dressing like Steve Jobs on every one of these podcasts, I'd be very concerned because you're a very unique brand. I'm a very unique brand. And so I would encourage everybody to think about what is it that's going to make you unique as a cmo. And that could be any number of things. It could be, what types of situations do you thrive in? Do you prefer a startup? Do you prefer a corporate environment? Do you like a turnaround? Do you like a particular category? Do you want to work internationally? These are all things that will help determine your brand and also what you're going to be famous for.

[Mike Linton]

Hey, let's, let's take a minute.

[Kip Knight]

You know, there's always been, you know, personal brands have always existed regardless or not. Any era of social media and AI where you can find anybody and job search can be done with a bot is in your mind, is personal branding more important now than it was 20 years ago or is it at the same level?

[Guest Expert]

Oh, absolutely. More important because first of all, there's the opportunity to become better known. I mean, think about it. When we started, I know you don't like to talk about how many years ago, but when we started, Mike, if you wanted to be a well known head of marketing, you know, there were some opportunities, maybe at a AMA conference or you can get Interviewed by Ad Age. But that was it. Think about today. I mean, you've got your own podcast, for God's sake. You can do blogs, you can do.

[Mike Linton]

I know.

[Kip Knight]

Anything can happen.

[Guest Expert]

Anything can happen. Right? So and so, in that crowded space, it's both an opportunity and frankly, a threat. Because if you're a shrinking violet as a CMO and you're hoping to do out and do great things and attract, you know, companies to want to hire you, they've got to know your brand. They've got to know, they've got to have brand awareness, they've got to have brand regard, and they've got to have a willingness to say, hey, Mike Linton seems like exactly the guy we need. Let's go talk to Mike. So, yes, you absolutely need to lean in on that.

[Kip Knight]

This says the power of the brand, which we've had other guests on the show reference. In the age of AI, it's more important than ever because the bots are doing a lot of the searching. If your brand is not actually consistent and available, there's a chance you won't get found. Am I shorthanding this correctly?

[Guest Expert]

Well, also, don't forget it's competitive marketplace out there. I mean, it's not like there's only one candidate for a CMO position. Companies will typically, but they'll start with maybe 20 candidates. They'll narrow it down to the top five and then the top two. You've played the game before. So to all of the aspiring CMOs out there, I would say, what is your game plan? I mean, I don't want to use politicians as an example because you know how that will go. But politicians are absolutely aware of social media's power. And if you look at the most recent election results, you can see if you do that well, you have, frankly, an unfair advantage over some of the other candidates that are vying for the same position.

[Kip Knight]

Okay, let's go to the. You know, we. We taught a seminar a little bit.

[Mike Linton]

Ago to a bunch of marketers where.

[Kip Knight]

You know, we talked them through the personal brand development framework.

[Mike Linton]

Why don't you talk about how our.

[Kip Knight]

Listeners should go about developing their own brand framework?

[Guest Expert]

Well, it's. As you know, there are three components to it. There's self assessment, there's brand positioning, and there's brand activation. So let's break those down individually and do a little back and forth as to what we think of those. So let's start with self assessment. One of my favorite expressions in coaching is you can't read the label from Inside the bottle. I mean it is impossible for you to know how other people.

[Kip Knight]

And it's really cramped in there.

[Guest Expert]

Yeah, it's really, really cramped. And so if you look around as to, well, how do you read the label on the bottle? Well, there are plenty of resources out there. If you work for any kind of company that has any type of HR system, you're going to have 360s, you're going to have performance reviews, you're going to have team feedback. So you should be getting a lot of information even without trying as to how are you currently perceived one on ones with your boss. Hopefully if you've got a great boss, they're going to be honest enough with you to tell you not only what your strengths are but also what your opportunities are. And finally, and coaches love this, there's so many different assessment tools out there. There's working genius and discovery, Myers, Briggs, Enneagram, lots of others. I will put in a plug for working genius. I think that is one that does a great job helping identify what are your superpowers, your one or two superpowers that you should really lean in on and be known for.

[Narrator]

We will take a quick break from our show for a message from our sponsor Typeface. To orchestrate workflows across channels. Meet ARC agents, your AI teammates handling complexity so you can focus on what matters all within a reimagined workspace where you and AI create as one spaces works the way you do. Create anything from documents to videos to entire campaigns at scale. Our agents help you craft campaign storyboards powered by your brand hub giving you the perfect starting point. Transform one asset into countless variations for every audience and market. Join industry leaders already reimagining their content lifecycle with typeface. Welcome to marketing's next chapter where every story finds its voice. Now back to our conversation with Kipnight.

[Kip Knight]

I want to jump in on the self assessment thing, you know, because one of the things I think people do is they're not objective on their self assessment and they will give themselves the benefit of the doubt on every edgy thing. But when they get actually in the game and we talked about how competitive it is for the really good jobs, that lack of objectivity will likely not help them at all. So how do you, you know, you talked about these tools but how do you recommend people really do an honest, deep self assessment?

[Guest Expert]

Well, I'll give you an acid test on it. I used to always write my annual review and draft form and give it to my boss. I wanted to be the first writer of history to say, this is how I did. And you know, you're doing a pretty good job when your boss is, I think you were too hard on yourself.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Guest Expert]

And Mike, I know you're the same way. If you are an athlete and you're looking to break like, you know, the four minute mile or whatever, you wouldn't be, you know, giving yourself a pat on the back if you went out there and just had an okay workout. You want to push yourself to the limit. You want to find out what you're capable of doing. I think you've got the same, you've got to be the same way in yourself. You've got to know what you're really, really good at and the same breath. You've got to know what you suck at. You need to know the areas in which you're going to need help on. And you've got to have the willingness to turn to others and say, I am not that good at this. Help me, please.

[Kip Knight]

Let me say something like give a couple objectivity examples. If you are managing one person, yes, you are managing people, but you're not really managing people. You're managing a partner. Don't fool yourself that you're going to win the game versus somebody who's managing a department of 10 when you have one. And also say you're buying, you know, search words and you have a $10 million budget. They up your budget to 20 million and they promote you a level. It's a promotion, but it's not really a skill set development thing. You're still essentially doing the same job at scale. And I think a lot of people will say this is a proof point that I am fantastic. When in truth they haven't proved much different than they had before they did what they did next.

[Guest Expert]

Well, Mike, let me debate you on that one a little bit because I think different strokes for different folks. When we were at pro, they had people that had been there literally their entire year. They've been entire career, 40 years in the same role. And to be candid, at first I was a little bit snobbish about that. I thought, wow, what happened to them? But then I came to appreciate some people are just really love a certain niche and they're really, really good at it. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Mike Linton]

I buy that.

[Kip Knight]

But if you want to get promoted and if you want to be promoted.

[Guest Expert]

That is not your ticket to fame.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah, that is not your ticket to fame. I did this for 10 years and then they double. Instead of four people, I managed eight. That is not your ticket to fame.

[Guest Expert]

Right.

[Kip Knight]

Where I'm in agreement that if your goal is to do this one job fantastically for your whole career, then that is a totally great thing. But don't expect that someone's going to come and raise you for the C suite out of that job unless it.

[Mike Linton]

Is already at a very, very high level.

[Guest Expert]

Well, and to put a pen on the self assessment, that's maybe the first question you got to ask yourself. Exactly how ambitious are you? Yeah, you're super ambitious, but you don't have a strategy to go along with it. Then you're setting yourself up for failure.

[Kip Knight]

Well, and I guess the other thing I would say is you have to do the work to develop the true proof point.

[Guest Expert]

Right, exactly.

[Kip Knight]

You know, because people aren't going to hire you based on your belief.

[Mike Linton]

They're going to hire you based on the proof point of what you've done.

[Guest Expert]

Right.

[Mike Linton]

Let's, let's flip this over.

[Kip Knight]

So we've talked about the framework and, and the need to go get this framework and, you know, self assessment and then a full understanding of what you are selling to the buyer who is hiring you.

[Mike Linton]

Let's talk about how you arrive at work.

[Kip Knight]

Executive presence confidence. You know, a lot of people either think they have imposter syndrome or really.

[Mike Linton]

Do talk about, you know, executive presence.

[Kip Knight]

And how that fits into personal branding.

[Guest Expert]

Okay. But before we move on to that, I'm going to go a little bit deeper on some of the strategy that I think. Person.

[Kip Knight]

Okay, let's go.

[Guest Expert]

So we've got this thing called brand positioning that we work on as marketers. But I think you've also got to think of yourself in terms of brand positioning. And that is taking all of that data you get from your self assessment and figuring out what is it that you are really, really good at. And let me give you a personal example. I'm going to turn it around and ask you the same thing. I'm really good at generating new ideas. I mean, you give me a problem and I would generate a half a dozen, I think, great ideas right off the top of my head. What I'm lousy at is filtering those ideas. You are which of those ideas, if anything, are worth doing. So part of my self assessment is knowing when to lean into what I'm really good at and knowing when to turn to other people, such as yourself and say, mike, I've got some thoughts. What do you think? And then we go from there. And Mike, I know that you, you've got a similar you know, you've got some superpowers, but you've also got some kryptonite there.

[Kip Knight]

Yes, but, you know, people have traditionally hired me for, you know, driving change and building brands, businesses and teams and. And they usually don't hire me to. On a stable business to squeeze another couple points out of it or for my super attention to detail.

[Guest Expert]

So for all the basketball fans out there, I think the most famous example, you know, Michael Jordan, greatest basketball player of all time, but he also played professional baseball. He wasn't that good at it, though. So my point is, after the self assessment, you've really got to figure out, what do you excel at, what can you do better than anybody else, and how do you invest in yourself to make sure that that's what you're famous for?

[Kip Knight]

Okay, so closing off on the framework thing.

[Mike Linton]

Let's go.

[Kip Knight]

Is there any more points on framework you want to add?

[Guest Expert]

No, I think that'll do it for now.

[Mike Linton]

All right, let's go to the whole.

[Kip Knight]

Thing about executive presence and how that fits into your personalized or your personal branding effort.

[Guest Expert]

So improving one's executive presence or improving one's confidence in their ability to lead is the number one request we get, not only from CMOs, but frankly, even more often from their boss. And that's not totally surprising because, frankly, who wants to work for. For a weak leader who wants to follow somebody into battle and they're going, well, I guess we got to do this.

[Mike Linton]

Let's go.

[Guest Expert]

I mean, you want somebody who is fired up and ready to lead and ready to make some tough calls there. So let me make an assumption. Let me make an assumption that anybody that wants to be a CMO and a marketing leader has got the iq. Okay, that. That's like table stakes.

[Mike Linton]

Right.

[Guest Expert]

Thing I'm going to push people on to think about and really work on are two things that I've worked on for a number of years. I'm still working on them. And that's your EQ and what I'll call your cq. Now, your eq, everybody knows, is, you know, your emotional intelligence. And I would define that simply as, you know, how do you. How good are you at reading the room and working with others and resolving differences of opinion and all that. How empathetic can you be to your team? But the one that I think is even more important today than it's ever been is the CQ one, and that is this hunger, this curiosity that if something like Jenny comes along, do you say another fad? I'm just. Let that go, or do you lean in on that one and go, wow, I've got some work to do here. I've got to really lean in. And, Mike, you've done a number of podcasts on this. How do you get started on this? How do you make sure that you don't wake up in a year and you feel like, you know, you're still working with a slide rule and everybody else has got a laptop. So it's that combination of IQ and EQ and CQ together that I think are going to make for the most powerful CMOs as we go forward.

[Kip Knight]

And that, that, that curiosity to understand not just what, but how and why is that should be relentless in a marketplace where technology and consumers are changing at speed. And I also want to talk about this executive presence thing where a bunch of people don't actually absorb the total leadership mandate. It's like going to the dentist. You don't want to hear your dentist go, you know, you're my third patient. I'm really. I'm starting to get good at this. Or the pilot say, this is my first time I've flown the airliner. I'm like, just get in and play and act like a leader. Don't. Don't be so timid. You actually don't play the game.

[Guest Expert]

I agree with that.

[Mike Linton]

But.

[Guest Expert]

But in the same breath, I would tell folks, it is perfectly okay. In fact, it's a smart move to admit when you don't know something. You know, you probably had bosses. I have, too. And you knew they were in trouble. You knew they didn't.

[Kip Knight]

You know it.

[Guest Expert]

You know, but they didn't have the guts to tell the team, hey, we are in trouble. You know, first we need to define reality, and then we need to figure out, how are we going to win this? Because right now, we are not in a winning position. If you can show some vulnerability, you will be amazed at the loyalty of your team, because they'll realize at that point, you're all in this together. Everybody on the team's important and needed, and how do we go, go forward and figure this thing out?

[Kip Knight]

Is that really vulnerability or is that truth telling? It's like, yeah, we've all had bosses where the business is getting slaughtered. And they will say, well, they find the two or three data points that show we're not getting slaughtered and ignore the 75 that show we are getting crushed. And they'll focus on those three. Talk about the difference between vulnerability and honesty and truth telling.

[Guest Expert]

Okay, well, let's use a live example that unfortunately, I think a number of CMOs are already familiar with. Let's say the business is not performing and let's say that there's been a decision made that you've got to have a 10% reduction in headcount, but because you're the marketing department, it's going to be a 20% reduction in headcount. Now, as the leader, you could put on the brave face and tell everybody it's going to be fine and not to worry about it. I got your back and all that. You're not serving your team as a leader if you do that. I think when I say showing vulnerability is to go to them and say we are in a tough situation, I can't tell you what's going to happen. I can't make any promises. But the only thing I can assure you of is I'm going to be as transparent as I can be and I'm going to try to make sure that everybody lands in a. In a decent place. And unfortunately, I've had to do the same thing. I'm sure you have as well. But the leaders that I hate, the worst ones are they send out the email that basically says you're all fired. And the other end of the spectrum is when. When your team honestly can feel the emotional pain that you're going through with them, when you're trying to make these tough decisions. So that's.

[Kip Knight]

And I think one of the things that I would opine here is, is that the reason this is important is this kind of stuff follows your personal brand around. You know.

[Guest Expert]

Yes.

[Kip Knight]

And it will become a defining component of your brand, how you handle the toughest situations. And your team will not remember a lot of specific things. They will remember the crises moments very clearly and that will follow your brand around. Correct me if you think I'm wrong on that.

[Mike Linton]

Oh, no.

[Guest Expert]

It goes back to the thing I started out with. It's all about trust and authenticity. If they felt like in the toughest time that you were in, could I trust you as a leader and were you being authentic as a leader? And if the answer to both those is yes, then I think you're going to make people feel like you had their back. If the answer to either of those is no, then you are. You're going to be one of those people that people talk about. I'm glad I don't work for Fill in the Blank anymore.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

Because that does really follow you around. And speaking of fill in the blank, let's talk about. You're a big believer in role models and thinking about, like, superpowers and role.

[Kip Knight]

Models and that curiosity to find examples.

[Mike Linton]

Everywhere in the marketplace. Talk about that a little bit.

[Guest Expert]

Well, it's funny, as you go up the. The pyramid and you get to higher and higher levels, you forget what it's like when you're just starting out and. And Mike, you. And I can remember, like, when you. When you're invited to the 11th floor at Procter and Gamble to meet, that's.

[Kip Knight]

The top floor with automatic doors and guards and all kinds of stuff. Stuff.

[Guest Expert]

I mean, it was like going to the Vatican. You were Catholic. It's a religious experience, but you tend to forget all of that. And it was funny. When I was president of H and R Block, I would pretty much spend the entire tax season going around all these different offices. And when I first started doing it, I asked people, why are you so nervous? And I go, because you're here. And then you would realize, oh, I'm the role model now. And that is something as a leader that you've got to constantly keep in mind because they are studying not only everything you say and write, but everything you do. I mean, every. The body language, the emotions. Are you in a good mood or a bad mood? Are you consistent, Are you authentic? Et cetera, et cetera. And so one way I like to define company culture is it's the stories they talk about when the leaders are not in the room. And if you've got a strong company culture, it's stories about how the leaders stepped up and did what they needed to do and led them through adversity and watched everybody in terms of making sure they were taken care of. The bad culture is it's food fight and every person for himself. It was just not a fun place to work. Unfortunately, you and I have had both those experiences. Places where the culture was amazing and a positive and places where the culture was toxic and made it really difficult to want to attract anybody to come join that team.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah, one of my things is once you hit a certain level, surely VP or higher, you're always on. If they run into. If your team runs into you at the grocery store or anywhere else, they still are looking at you, even if they're your friend as a leader and then a friend. But you always have to be on.

[Mike Linton]

And I think the leaders I've really.

[Kip Knight]

Respected have, have always been on.

[Mike Linton]

So.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah.

[Guest Expert]

And what you don't want to be, I. I knew a boss one time that people would call and this wouldn't. People had secretaries and admins, but they would call the admin and say, how's the weather today? And that was code for, is he in a good mood? And if they said it, it looks like it's stormy outside, it might rain, then maybe you want to reschedule that meeting.

[Kip Knight]

Right. Yeah, I have very, very. And I can't make the meeting.

[Guest Expert]

So.

[Kip Knight]

So how do people find role models? It's.

[Mike Linton]

It's.

[Kip Knight]

They find role models in their company and who they work for and everything else.

[Mike Linton]

How do they find role models in other places?

[Guest Expert]

Well, I'm always a big fan of bios. I don't know if you do a lot of reading either autobiographies, biographies about, you know, various business leaders. I find those to be very instructive. And one thing, you know, whether or not you're reading about a Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or Michael Dell or any number of business leaders out there, it was not all up into the right for them. They've all had serious setbacks. They've all had career setbacks. They've all had unpleasant surprises. And the thing you learn from reading about these biographies is what values did they hold to and what got them through the tough times? Because. And Mike, you've been through these as well.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah. Our. Our careers are surely not up into the right. No, you know, there's a lot of down and down into the right steps as you look at them really closely.

[Guest Expert]

And it might have been Benjamin Franklin, but I think the expression of, you know, crises does not build character, it reveals it. So it's like in training. I mean, the more you can kind of think through in advance, okay, if this happens, this is how I think I would respond as a leader, as opposed to hitting the panic button. And you can't fool your team. I mean, if they see you're in full panic mode, there's not a whole lot you can do after that. So keep in mind you're always 100% under inspection by your team, and they're going to mirror whatever emotions and whatever leadership or lack thereof that you're demonstrating.

[Kip Knight]

Time.

[Mike Linton]

Anything more on role models or should.

[Kip Knight]

I move to the next. Next question?

[Guest Expert]

Well, one last thing. I've been fortunate enough to have some. Some great role models. I've also had some bosses that were so bad, they were very instructive because I go, I will never do what that person.

[Kip Knight]

Exactly. Had a little book. I'll never do this. So.

[Guest Expert]

Yeah, and those are important, too. You got to keep that in mind.

[Kip Knight]

I hope you're not in anybody's little book.

[Guest Expert]

I hope I'm never one of them. I hope I'm never one of those bosses, but the ones I admire, people like Bill Cobb and, and Peter Hurl and you and I both work for Bill. And the thing I love about Bill is he taught you the power of consistent principles. I mean, two of the ones I'm sure you've heard many times, and I did too, was disagree and commit and stay in your lane. And you learned that if you could have three or four, like, core principles that you would remind your team of sometimes on a daily basis, it really helped cement the team in terms of mission and consistency and the determination to make it through whatever you were facing at the time.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah, I was lucky. I had a lot of good ones early, like John Seeley at Proctor and Ed Stevens at Progressive and Wade Fenn at Best Buy. That really kind of. They broadened you while they let you grow, but they were relentless in pushing you.

[Guest Expert]

And if I gave you a couple of minutes, you could probably think of a key principle or a saying that each one of those folks had. I had a boss, Colin Moore, he was also a phenomenal boss and we called him Colonisms and, and I don't know if there are any Kip isms or mic isms out there, but you want to be known by your team for having certain core principles that are never going to be violated. That's the way you're going to manage this team and lead this team.

[Kip Knight]

I'm sure maybe some of our listeners will put them in comments, but I had a couple and one of them was show me the math.

[Guest Expert]

You're right, I remember that one.

[Kip Knight]

I want to flip over to your.

[Mike Linton]

Belief that marketers are business integrators.

[Guest Expert]

I think marketers should be naturally gifted at being business integrators because the role of marketing is listen to, respond to the voice of the customer. I think you could take that same skill set and go within various departments of a company and figure out, okay, what is it that we need to do here? I think Genai, a topic that we're all thinking about and working on right now, is a perfect example of that. You've had a number of podcasts where it's almost like, be careful here, because if you go ahead and make a quick decision to go after something and it turns out it was not the right bet, there's going to be a lot of collateral damage. So I think this is a unique and perfect opportunity for the marketing leader to bring together the various folks that are going to be involved in this. Your it, your legal, your finance, your hr, probably your CEO to walk through the math. Like, I know you'd like that part. Also walk through the options, walk through how aggressive we want to be. Walk through what's the criteria for success and make sure everybody at least understands they don't necessarily have to love, but at least understands and is willing to support whatever that game plan is. Because again, these are the times in which if you make the right bet, then, you know, Katie, bar the door, you're going to be fantastic. If you make the wrong bet or if you just rush into something and you don't think it through, it could be disastrous.

[Kip Knight]

I mean, well, my thing was make sure if you're doing a big initiative in particular, that the company has a chance to join it versus just execute it.

[Guest Expert]

Yes.

[Mike Linton]

And I want to flip over to networking before we get to our traditional last question, because I know you have some thoughts.

[Kip Knight]

We've talked about personal branding and, you.

[Mike Linton]

Know, a bunch of stuff.

[Kip Knight]

Let's, let's add the professional network in there.

[Mike Linton]

Give our listeners some advice on how.

[Kip Knight]

To think about networking.

[Guest Expert]

Well, probably the oldest cliche in business is it's not what you know, it's who you know. But as you know, Mike, it's true. And I've currently got over.

[Kip Knight]

Not always true, but it's true enough that you shouldn't shut the door on it.

[Guest Expert]

Well, I think you need to know something, but if you don't know the right people, I'm not sure what you're going to do with it. So I've got over 17,000 connections on LinkedIn. I work on my networking every day. But I do have some practical tips I want to pass along for folks to think about. There are three of them, and I learned this the hard way. I'm constantly having people referred to me and I used to just warm up the ad, get to know them and all that other good stuff, and then 30 minutes in, you'd find out what they wanted. Forget that. You start the conversation. How can I help you today? Maybe that's a little New Yorker coming up, but, you know, like, how can.

[Kip Knight]

I not even close to a New Yorker?

[Guest Expert]

Oh, I know, I know. But it is a very effective time saver and they appreciate it because frankly, if you can't help them, why are they going to want to waste the next 29 minutes talking to you? They're going to want to move on to the next person. That's tip number one. How can I help you? Number two, warm introductions. Mike, if you ask me Can I introduce you to so and so? I would never even think about doing that unless I checked in with that person first.

[Kip Knight]

Exactly.

[Guest Expert]

These cold introductions to me are just incredibly rude. Now the one thing I will say on that is if you agree to introduce somebody and that person doesn't respond, then then that's on them. That ghosting to me is one of the most irritating things that is happening these days. And it is especially important if you want to maintain that reputation as being trustworthy and authentic because those people that are authentic and trustworthy answer their emails if they get a warm introduction. So.

[Kip Knight]

Or else they are transactional networker, which means over time they will have a much weaker network.

[Guest Expert]

Yeah, absolutely. And finally, as you age, as you get to more and more senior positions, obviously you're going to have to be selective in terms of how much this you're going to want to do for others. But you have to accept the fact that you're going to be much more of a giver and less of a taker. And that is a privilege that we've got to be able to help the younger folks out. So for all these, you know, senior folks that are like, well, why would I bother to do that? Say, man, somebody helped you when you were in that position and you probably wouldn't be where you were if they didn't. So it's time to, you know, return the favor and help these folks out that are looking for a leg up. So don't resent it. It's a privilege. It's an honor. You should do it.

[Kip Knight]

It's also fun. It's, you know, it keeps you, it keeps you in the game as well. So this brings us to our traditional.

[Mike Linton]

Last question, which you are very familiar with.

[Kip Knight]

Funniest story you can share on the air and or practical advice we haven't discussed yet.

[Mike Linton]

Take it away. You must take at least one, but you can take both.

[Guest Expert]

Well, Mike, for the fourth time in a row, I'm never, I'm not, I'm going to avoid the practical joke or the story because you just never know how that's going to land. But I will give you a really good practical tip. And it ties back into the networking and it also ties back into your personal branding. And that is never underestimate the power of a handwritten note on high quality stationery. And I learned this from a boss I had who was terrific at writing out handwritten notes to people anytime that he wanted to recognize something or thank them for something. When I was head of H and R block, I started the tax season off by writing a handwritten thank you to each one of my 30 divisional leaders. It's so rare these days to get that. It makes it even that much more special. And let me just cut off anybody that goes, oh yeah, I do that. I do an email. And email is nowhere close.

[Kip Knight]

It's not the same in terms of.

[Guest Expert]

Emotional impact you're going to have. So for God's sake, people invest 100 bucks on the highest quality stationery you can afford. Those little postcards, write it out in ink and boss it at the top with your name. You will be amazed at the impact that that will have.

[Kip Knight]

Look, I did something like that at one of my jobs. I was encouraged by my HR business partner and I was shocked by how many people posted them on their little on their desk.

[Guest Expert]

Absolutely. And because they're so rare and it means you care, it means you, you are thinking about them and caring about them. And as a leader, that's what you want your team to feel that you've got their back.

[Kip Knight]

All right, well, our producer will send you a thank you note written on high gloss stationery.

[Guest Expert]

All right, Jeff, I'm looking at you.

[Kip Knight]

So it's a great way to end the show. Thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. If you are enjoying the show hit like share and subscribe.

[Mike Linton]

New shows drop every Tuesday and all of our nearly 150 episodes are available on Spotify, Apple and YouTube. Previous episodes include Marketing the Battle between Believers and non Believers Parts 1 and 2 the Rise and fall of peloton is seen through the lens of cltv. Colonel Mustard in the study with the job Spec How Poor Design Shortens CMO Lifespans and Kip's earlier shows including why Marketers Should Learn Finance and why the Short Shelf life of cmos. Hey all you marketers stay safe out there.

[Kip Knight]

This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.

[Mike Linton]

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