CMO Confidential Podcast Summary

Episode: Evan Wittenberg | Chief People Officer, VuMedi | What HR Really Thinks About Marketing
Host: Mike Linton
Release Date: November 25, 2025

Overview

This episode dives deep into the evolving role of HR, especially in turbulent times, and draws parallels between the Chief People Officer (CPO) and Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) roles. Host Mike Linton and guest Evan Wittenberg (CPO at VuMedi; former CPO of Ancestry, Pivot Bio, and Box) discuss how HR sees marketing, how both functions are navigating massive workplace changes, and practical advice for CMOs and job-seekers. The conversation unpacks mutual challenges in HR and marketing, including AI disruption, shifting workplace expectations, and how to succeed as a business driver rather than a siloed function.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Changing Role of HR in the Executive Suite

• Seat at the Table: Evan notes that while HR once fought for that executive seat, "once you're at the big kid table, then you have to deal with the big problems." (04:01)
• Burnout & Intractable Problems: COVID, remote work, DEI, AI, and other cultural flashpoints have made HR far more complex, leading to increased executive burnout.
  • Quote: “These were not...business problems... Dealing with a pandemic was not on anybody's menu of here's a business problem that is owned by a specific function.” (04:27)
• Pandemic Response: Evan recalls being first to flag COVID company-wide at Ancestry, only to see his initial doubts transform as realities shifted rapidly. (05:03)

Why HR’s “Grab Bag” Mirrors Marketing’s Reality

• Ownership with Many Opinions: Both HR and marketing are unique as executive functions that everyone else in the company feels entitled to have an opinion about.
  • Quote: “Nobody's going to go to the general counsel and say, you should do your legal briefs in a different way....[But] the people space, similar to the marketing space, right. Everybody's seen an ad. Everybody watches TV. Like, everybody thinks they have an opinion.” (07:22)
• No Right Answers, Lots of Input: Both roles demand navigating ambiguity, balancing data with intuition, and managing “the burden of proof” for decisions. (24:14)

Major Workplace Trends Affecting Both Functions

1. DEI in Retreat, But Inequity Still Must Be Addressed
   • Even as DEI programs are attacked or rebranded, the underlying need for equity, belonging, and recognition remains. Companies must solve for these, regardless of the label.
     • Quote: “Whether you make the DEI programs go away or not, you have to address that...Everyone feels valued, that everyone feels a sense of belonging and that everyone can do great work and have an impact that gets recognized.” (10:24)
2. AI and Entry-Level Jobs
   • AI excels at automating foundational, repetitive work—often the early-career roles that help people learn corporate functions.
     • Quote: “What [AI] does best today...is a lot of the work that typically entry level jobs do in order to build experience...Nobody among my peers...has figured out...How do you get that same experience [if AI does all that work]?” (12:24)
3. Remote Work and Lost Mentorship
   • Remote/hybrid structures disrupt mentorship and informal learning—especially damaging as AI wipes out traditional “starter” work.
     • Quote: “You can't pull somebody aside after a meeting immediately and say, hey, what you just did, that was great or that didn't work...those are two trends that is a bit of a train wreck for creating professionals down the line.” (13:28)

Do Companies Really Think People Are Their Most Important Asset?

• Actions vs. Words: Most companies claim people are their most important asset but don't act like it.
• Employee “BS Detectors”: Workers quickly sense gaps between rhetoric and reality.
  • Quote: “If you tell people something's true, but their lived experience is different, they know. There's no pulling the wool over the eyes of employees.” (15:19)
• HR Nirvana: Optimal outcomes balance individual employee needs with business goals—favoring neither exclusively.
  • Quote: “HR nirvana is finding a solution that works for both the person and the company, not one or the other.” (16:12)
• How to Tell If a Company Walks Its Talk: Look for real mobility, fair recognition, and transparent opportunities—not just stated values. (17:12)

How HR Really Sees Marketing

• Similarity in Functional Breadth: Both are multidimensional, needing analytic and creative skills, and the remit can change drastically from one company to another. (18:02)
• Service Versus Business Driver: HR and marketing can default to “support functions,” but the best practitioners see themselves and are seen as core drivers of business value. (18:51)
  • Quote: “The best marketers understand their job is to help the business succeed. And the best people leaders understand the same thing.” (19:37)
• Stakeholder Management: Both fields must satisfy many “internal customers” across functions.

Best and Worst Practices: Marketing Departments

• What Sets Best-In-Class Marketers Apart:
  • Ability to bridge data-driven insight and creative brand execution.
    • Quote: “They can come to the executive table, clearly state a problem...state the data...and then clearly state a solution...” (22:36)
  • Presenting clear business arguments in terms other executives recognize—not “squishy” or vague rationale. (23:51)
  • Demonstrating the business impact of marketing, not just operational metrics.
  • Accepting the “burden of proof” is higher in these visible and debatable functions. (24:14)
• Critical Role of HR Partnership:
  • For functions with unique talent needs, embedded HR/People partners who understand and adapt are crucial.
    • Quote: “Having somebody who's embedded...who really understands the issues involved and the org design and can help the leader with that—I think it's critical.” (24:45)

Recruiting & Interview Tips for CMOs and Marketers

• What HR Looks For:
  1. Learning Agility: Ability to adapt, not just repeat old playbooks.
     • Quote: “I've seen people spend a lot of time...trying to get to that next roll up. It is the number one failure mode... The advice is do the job you were hired for, do it 120%, and you're going to get massive opportunities...” (34:34)
  2. Basic AI Fluency: Comfort playing with new tools.
     • Quote: “You wouldn't want to hire somebody today that has no idea how to start, thinks it's scary, or has never even played around with it.” (29:15)
  3. Truly Effective Collaboration: Beyond being “nice”—proven record of solving tough problems with others across functions. (29:46)
• Questions Candidates Should Ask Companies:
  • “Tell me about a time when this role has failed.”
  • “What problem are you solving by hiring this job?”
  • Scenario-based working: “Here’s an example where things went wrong at my last company. How would we work through that here?” (31:14)
  • Cross-functional interviews: Make sure to speak to those outside the marketing team to sense true decision latitude.
  • “If you don't fill this role, what will you do?”—checks for real business need. (32:54)
  • “What environment do people who work here typically succeed in?”
    • Quote: “If they haven't thought that through... probably that says something about how they're going to value you once you're there.” (32:54)

Memorable Moments & Quotes

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On HR’s New Burdens:
  “Once you're at the big kid table, then you have to deal with the big problems.” — Evan Wittenberg (04:07)
• On Universal Opinions About HR/Marketing:
  “Everybody's seen an ad. Everybody watches TV. Like, everybody thinks they have an opinion.” — Evan Wittenberg (07:22)
• On DEI’s Future:
  “Whether you make the DEI programs go away or not, you have to address that...Everyone feels valued, that everyone feels a sense of belonging and that everyone can do great work and have an impact that gets recognized.” (10:24)
• On AI & Entry-Level Jobs:
  “What [AI] does best today...is a lot of the work that typically entry level jobs do...[so] how do you get that same experience?” — Evan Wittenberg (12:24)
• On Lost Professional Apprenticeship:
  “You can't pull somebody aside after a meeting... You don't have the mentorship/apprenticeship that's always been important...” — Evan Wittenberg (13:28)
• On Best-in-Class Marketers:
  “They can come to the executive table, clearly state a problem...state the data...and then clearly state a solution...” — Evan Wittenberg (22:36)
• On HR & Marketing’s ‘Burden of Proof’:
  “The burden of proof is higher for our function.” — Evan Wittenberg (24:14)
• On Climbing the Ladder:
  “Do the job you were hired for, do it 120%, and you're going to get massive opportunities inside the company for other things. But the people who don't do their main job well never get other opportunities.” — Evan Wittenberg (34:34)

Funniest Story (SNL Anecdote)

• [34:48–38:30] Evan tells how, as a new SNL page, he unwittingly saved a live sketch by hunting down Rob Schneider moments before he was needed on stage due to a broken speaker. The resulting live chaos with Schneider as Soon-Yi and the aftermath with Lorne Michaels provided a rare, behind-the-scenes glimpse at high-stakes live television.

Timestamps for Core Segments

• 03:24–07:22 – The changing role of HR and comparison to marketing’s struggles
• 10:24–14:27 – Deep dive into DEI, AI’s impact on entry-level jobs, and remote work
• 15:19–17:30 – How to tell if a company really values people; HR 'nirvana'
• 18:02–19:50 – Three ways HR sees marketing and the parallel challenges
• 21:37–24:21 – Characteristics of top marketing (and people) leaders; "burden of proof"
• 24:45–26:49 – The case for embedded people/HR partners in every function
• 29:15–30:40 – What HR looks for when hiring; critical skills, especially AI and collaboration
• 31:14–32:54 – How to interview a company; determining real scope, influence, and fit
• 34:48–38:30 – SNL story: rescuing Rob Schneider and the realities of live TV
• 39:33–end – Final practical career advice: Master your current job before reaching for the next

Practical Takeaways

• Both HR and marketing are misunderstood, highly scrutinized, and require real business acumen, analytical and interpersonal skills.
• AI and remote work threaten to hollow out early-career training; companies must find new structures for learning and mentorship.
• The best leaders—whether HR or marketing—connect their function’s work directly to business outcomes and can “speak executive.”
• Embedded HR/business partners are invaluable for specialist teams.
• If you want to move up, outperform in your current role—for all the talk of ladder climbing, nothing beats demonstrated results.
• When interviewing, drill into real business need, clarity of expectations, and cultural fit.
• Practical humor and candid stories illuminate that even the highest roles are filled by people who remember their early scrambles.

Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, direct, and loaded with practical wisdom and humor. Both speakers blend empathy for the challenges facing HR and marketing professionals with a clear-eyed view of how to effect change and navigate ambiguity in modern organizations.

Recommended for:
CMOs, CPOs, marketers, HR professionals, and anyone interested in the realities at the intersection of people, business, and brand strategy in today’s disruptive work environment.