James Shira | What Your CIO Wants to Tell You But Won't | Principal, Global CIO and Global CISO, PwC

Summary

CMO Confidential: What Your CIO Wants to Tell You But Won't

Host: Mike Linton
Guest: James Shira, Principal, Global CIO and Global CISO, PwC
Date: February 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode brings listeners inside the high-pressure intersection of marketing, technology, and security with James Shira, Global CIO and Global CISO at PwC. Host Mike Linton explores the new realities faced by tech executives in a world where AI is transforming not only business operations but also the very nature of websites, marketing stacks, and internal company politics. Shira provides candid insights into the shifting dynamics, challenges, and opportunities for CMOs partnering (or clashing) with their CIO/CISO counterparts, especially as AI triggers an unprecedented rate of change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Current State of Technology and Information Marketplace

• Pace and Impact of AI:
  • Shira stresses that the agentic AI era is unlike any prior tech wave—change is rapid, complexity is high, and expectations are intense.
    • “Since the starting gun sounded on the agentic AI era and race, it’s been frankly nothing like any time I’ve ever seen before in terms of pace and rate of change…” (03:19)
• Advisory Approach:
  • Humility is key; there are no universal answers, and solutions must be tailored to each organization’s context.
    • “I don’t have all the answers… I think you have to really … understand your own environment…” (04:29)
  • Globally scaled environments demand flexibility—one size does not fit all for AI adoption or infrastructure (05:06).

2. AI Adoption and Organizational Change

• Marketplaces of AI Models:
  • PwC fosters choice by creating internal ‘marketplaces’ where multiple AI models can compete, maximizing derived value for users (09:07–11:56).
• Security and Experimentation:
  • Controlled experimentation is encouraged—access subject to reasonable security constraints. Extreme caution for models that compromise data integrity (09:41–10:33).
  • Emphasis on shifting from traditional gatekeeping to enabling innovation:
    • “Security has moved up critically. … I’ve always viewed security as a business enabler.” (16:54)

3. AI Adoption Patterns Within Companies

• User Segments:
  • Early adopters and super-users thrive on new tech; the challenge is drawing in those with habitual tech-use patterns and the undecided middle segment (12:20–13:35).
  • Adoption is being encouraged, not yet mandated—AI is increasingly embedded in daily workflows (13:09).

4. Leading Practices and Lessons Learned

Leading Practices (13:52)

• Prioritization with the C-Suite:
  • AI implementation must be highly prioritized and focused where it delivers measurable value (13:52–14:31).
• Strategic Use-Cases:
  • High-value: Improving the audit process.
  • High-volume but low-value: Automating meeting summaries or time entry (14:34).
• Collaboration:
  • “Working with your other C-suite functions and trying to develop a prioritized approach to adoption…” (13:52)

Lessons Learned (15:55)

• Security Mindset Evolution:
  • Need for greater speed and enablement means security protocols must adapt—security is now about facilitating change, not just protecting assets (16:54–18:27).
• Judgment is Essential:
  • Balance is required—defaulting to precedent can slow necessary innovation (18:27–19:19).

5. CMO-CIO/CISO Collaboration

How Marketers Can Help:

• Empathy & Problem-Solving:
  • Marketers should anticipate the CIO/CISO’s challenges, especially selecting the right tech partners from a crowded field (19:45–21:11).
  • “Best marketing anticipates my problems.” (20:06)

Common Pitfalls:

• Over-Customization:
  • CMOs often want too many disparate solutions, leading to integration chaos (21:45–23:13).
  • Recommendation: Develop a working knowledge of the enterprise and martech stack before pitching new tools (23:13–23:29).
• Alignment with Corporate Strategy:
  • Align martech proposals with broader organizational priorities and infrastructure (23:29–25:49).
    • “Any organization that doesn’t manage for efficiency and effectiveness is… a stock to short … cost matters.” (25:49)

Dealing with Legacy Systems:

• Sourcing & Automation:
  • Consider outsourcing legacy functions, but retain and progressively automate strategic elements internally with AI (27:10–28:47).

“Going Rogue”:

• When is it Justified?
  • Only consider working outside IT when the situation is urgent, the cost of compliance is excessive, and all reasonable attempts at collaboration have failed (29:14–30:25).
    • “Where rogue is a lazy strategy is when you skip that step.” (30:05)
• Stakeholder Support:
  • Even if going rogue, ensure strong support from the CEO/COO for major moves (29:49).

6. General Advice for Marketers

• Partnership & Influence:
  • Lasting change comes from coalition-building; solo victories in the C-suite are rare and risky (32:36–33:27).
    • “If you’re all alone, then you really need to reflect on am I in the right place?” (33:20)
• Substantive Understanding:
  • True credibility with CIOs/CISOs comes from understanding their problems and priorities, not just enthusiasm (34:41–34:43).
    • “Substantive knowledge of the problems… is the most tangible credibility in establishing the relationship.” (34:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:19 | James Shira | “Since the starting gun sounded on the agentic AI era and race, it’s been nothing like any time I’ve ever seen before in terms of pace and rate of change…” | | 04:29 | James Shira | “I don’t know, I don’t have all the answers. It’s really important to approach this topic especially from a place of humility…” | | 09:07 | James Shira | “We have over 40 models in our architecture… The names we all know predominate, but we’ve also got a bunch of outliers and smaller organizations that I’m thrilled are included.” | | 13:52 | James Shira | “I think leading is working with your other C suite functions and trying to develop a prioritized approach to adoption.” | | 14:34 | James Shira | “A low quality but high volume activity could be something like time entry or meeting administration… Summarizing meetings has been good for me, helps me avoid using colorful language by accident.” | | 16:54 | James Shira | “I’ve always viewed security as a business enabler. … The opportunity is in facilitating innovation, not just controlling risk.” | | 21:51 | James Shira | “But I would say think about the architectural stack you’re living in a little bit. …advance in the first instance understanding of your environment.” | | 25:49 | James Shira | “Any organization that doesn’t manage for efficiency and effectiveness is, is not as a, is a stock to short. … Cost matters.” | | 34:41 | James Shira | “Substantive knowledge of the problems that CISOs and CIOs are confronted with is the most tangible credibility in establishing the relationship.” | | 35:58 | James Shira | (Funny story) “All he had was black tube socks… So that’s my funny story because I felt pretty embarrassed about that.” |

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Selected Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:19] – Pace of change in the “agentic AI era”
• [09:07] – Internal AI marketplace approach at PwC
• [13:52] – Leading practices: C-suite prioritization of AI
• [16:54] – Changing security mindset: enabling innovation vs. gatekeeping
• [21:45] – CMOs’ mistake: Over-customizing the martech stack
• [25:49] – Why alignment with enterprise architecture beats chasing “unicorn” solutions
• [29:14] – Guidelines on when/if to go “rogue”
• [34:41] – Why marketers need to deeply understand CIO/CISO pain points
• [35:58] – Lighthearted story: the Zurich board meeting sock crisis

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Practical Takeaways for CMOs

• Work with your IT colleagues early and understand the broader tech and business context before pitching solutions.
• Don’t chase the perfect tech at the expense of integration, cost, or corporate alignment.
• If desperate to “go rogue,” build strong stakeholder support and be sure you’re solving a problem too big for existing systems.
• Balance bold innovation with humility and partnership—bring substance, not just style, to the table.
• Never underestimate the importance of organizational, operational, and financial literacy as a marketing executive.
• And always, always, pack an extra pair of dress socks for board meetings.

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For Those Who Haven’t Listened

This episode is for marketers and tech leaders who want straight talk on what it takes to collaborate at the highest levels, especially in the face of relentless AI-driven change. James Shira offers a rare window into the real tensions, tactical decisions, and philosophical shifts that define success at the tech-marketing-security nexus. Whether you’re in the C-suite or working your way there, his blend of humility, candor, and humor provides both actionable advice and much-needed perspective.

Transcript

[A]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential.

[B]

The podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the Head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.

[A]

When is the last time you researched something on a website? If you're like most people, AI did that work for you. And that raises a question. If AI is doing the work, what is your website really for? This behavioral shift means AI bots are becoming your most important new visitors. A challenge our sponsor Scrunch is taking head on. Scrunch is the customer experience platform that helps you understand how AI agents experience your site, when and why they show up, and what's blocking them from being retrieved, trusted or recommended. Scrunch shows you the content and citation gaps and technical blockers and helps you fix them so your brand shows up when consumers Start with AI because your most important site visitor might not be a human for our listeners, Scrunch is providing a free website audit that uncovers how AI sees your site and how you're showing up in AI versus the competition. Run your site through [e-mail] CMO welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them. The Chief Marketing Officer Confidential CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the Head of Marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest James Shura. Today's topic what your CIO wants to tell you but won't. James currently serves as the global and US CIO and global CISO of PwC. He has one of the longest business cards probably out there. Previously he was the Group Chief Information Security Officer of Zurich Insurance. Full disclosure, we worked together when I was at Farmers. As Zurich owned a significant portion of Farmer's Insurance, we thought he would be a great guest to share perspective on the CIO role in general, the importance of the Chief Information Security Officer and how those roles interface with the company, consumers and marketing.

[B]

Welcome James Hey Mike, Good to see you.

[A]

Nice to see you again. First Question hey, give us an overview of what is going on in the technology and information marketplace, you see probably more than almost anybody given your seat. Tell us what's going on.

[B]

Well, Mike, I mean to state the obvious, we're in unprecedented times of change. And I think since the starting gun sounded on the agentic AI era and race, it's been frankly nothing like any time I've ever seen before in terms of pace and rate of change, in terms of complexity and options and choices in the landscape, in terms of inbound pressure and expectations from stakeholders. So it's an exciting obviously, but also obviously challenging time to sit in the C suite working on technology and how.

[A]

Do you even think about it? Because unlike some of the other revolutions like digital and mobile and dot com, the infrastructure was required for the technology to expand with. The technology expands with or without the consumer at all. And you have all this money going in infrastructure. How do you even manage and advise clients on that and manage, you know, all, all the businesses you have to manage? How do you think about it?

[B]

Well, I mean, first thing to say is I don't know, I don't have all the answers. I think it's really important to approach this topic especially from a place of humility, right? And I think I haven't seen anybody absent some tech companies who act like they have all the answers, right? I mean, I think most of us acknowledge that we don't. So I think you have to start from there. Secondly, I think you have to really, and this is always important, but I think in this case it's actually required. You have to understand your own environment because to your point, the scaling of AI is going to be, I thought about like what's a great analogy for it and there just frankly isn't one because all the different eras that you just got done describing, mobile, cloud, PC, if we want to go way back, mainframe, all of them had, I would say, a much slower rate of change. And I think companies could kind of decide when they wanted to opt in. And even if you were a little late in any of these, it wasn't something that might exclude you from future opportunities. Whereas in the case of AI, frankly being too late is not okay. So to your question, the way we advise clients of course is specific to client needs, but also with a degree of humility and care, understanding what their needs are. But specific to us, you know, we're in over 130 countries, our business looks very different in different places. And so we don't need a one size and nor do we want a one size fits all answer. And therefore we're Highly focused on scale, trying to frankly control and manage cost, but also bring the users, right, who we're all here to talk about, bring them the right AI experience where they are that they can consume. Imagine, you know, you're an average person in an organization waking up on a Monday, there's all this new AI stuff coming at you and it's challenging, right, to kind of figure out where do I meet and receive and how do.

[A]

You, how do you plug that in to all of. Just even your users? Yeah, just in your company, much less clients. Like, what do you tell them? And then we've had, we also, we've had some guests on the show talking about AI, say basically, hey, look, there's a lot of bets being made now and it's unclear how those are even going to pay out in the financing and everything else. So how do you get your org even going given all the choices?

[B]

We really focus, Mike, on scale. And again, I would just emphasize this point, not to overemphasize this, but I think answers need to be designed based on the individual organization because your technology ecosystem is not going to look the same here as it's going to look in other large organizations. There's differences and those need to be accounted for in the plan. But to answer your question, we're focused aggressively on having an environment that scales, that secure and that frankly is as ubiquitous around the globe as we can make it. I mean, different countries obviously have different laws, so there's some give and take there. But that's where we're focused, is on that point of scale and to therefore create, if you will, almost like a marketplace environment for these different AI models to live so that they can compete against one another based on the user's experience and the derived value that we see. We are taking a quick break from our show for a word from our sponsor, Scrunch AI. Over the weekend, I asked AI to do dozens of things for me. Please help me make this dishwasher start working. Settle a debate between me and my partner. Is it safe to sleep at 80 degrees?

[A]

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[A]

Oh, that is super interesting. So do I have to be one of the big frontier models to even get in? No, no. Yeah. No.

[B]

Now I will say though, there's a certain minimum threshold I don't think it's relevant to this audience to get into, but there is certain, like a minimum threshold that we do want to have. You know, from terms of viability, but scale and security and things like that. But no, you don't. In fact, we have over 40 models in our architecture today that we're working with. And yes, the names we're all familiar with predominate the majority of our users attention. But we've also got a bunch of outliers on there and smaller organizations that I'm thrilled are included.

[A]

So if I'm in your org and I find something, I can come to you and say, hey, we want to plug this into the system.

[B]

Within reason. Yeah.

[A]

And then as you know, ciso, there's. We'll get to the CISO thing in a minute.

[B]

But yeah, that's the right connection, Mike. That's the right look. So I made the comment within reason. Reason, because if you have a model that wants to suck up all your data and you can't encrypt it, or you can't govern your data outside your organization, well, that would be a no. Right? I mean, obviously we need to have the ability to create those necessary controls, but we want that experimentation, Mike, because these are the early days of this exciting AI era, and I think choice matters and I think we want to create an environment that fosters choice. And. And so we're pretty much looking at everything still.

[A]

That's. This is actually super interesting because I always, I remember, you know, when you were dealing with just the martech stack and everything else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was so many rules to get through.

[B]

Oh my God. Yeah.

[A]

And now what you're saying is if you have your way, which you obviously have, you're creating a marketplace where the models are playing on the field that is your company.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, look, there's limits to it, right? I mean, we don't have every single. And this gets complicated. And I don't want to go too deep and lose our audience here, but the reality of it is that the broader a company can cast in that in the current instance and timing, I think the better. Now, you know, somebody may watch this from a vendor that we're not using and say, but what about us? Right. We're going to hopefully be able to get Everybody into this mix. But conceptually we want to go down this path as we've been with as much choice as we can. I don't think that persists forever. I do think there becomes a point in time where, and this is where I think we have a lot of work to do as a society still on AI, which is how do we start to demonstrate provable differentiated value? And that's where I think a lot of CIOs, at least I'm not speaking for all of us, but I'll generalize. I think we're all still. We have sticker shock, frankly, price. And we're all still a little bit skeptical on the benefit realization.

[A]

Let's talk about that. Because the realization also has to be driven by adoption within the company and use cases within the company. Use cases that drive outcomes.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

How when you look across your landscape, do you feel about AI adoption across your company? And then all the companies you see, where is it really?

[B]

I think, I think you have. In the first. I'm going to generalize. Right. Because it's a general. We have to, we have to. But I think in the first instance you've got your early adopters and super users and, and, and God bless those folks because they really help us learn. Those folks, they, when they heard the words AI, they were. It was like their coffee in the morning. They're in. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that, that is. We have a lot more of those types of people and professional services, frankly, because we live in this environment every day for our clients. So that's a big group of our users. I would say maybe a third. Then we have on the other extreme, the group of users that I would say are in their habitual technology consumption patterns and they're looking at AI and they're kind of like, well, what's this going to do for me? Right. And then we have the middle group. And I think it's really important that we try to win over that middle group to earn the right to get the last group. And so one of the things that we're doing is we've, we're not requiring. I think that may come later, but we're encouraging using the tools in certain scenarios. And I think we're putting them now into workflows where they'll become, frankly. You mentioned Marstack. Right. They'll be in the stack and you won't be able to avoid the consumption in time. Right. That's where we're headed.

[A]

This is interesting. I would like. You see all this. What are some leading Practices you could share with our audience where you say this is a leading thing and then we'll also go to lessons learned of things you might not necessarily want to do.

[B]

I think leading, and again acknowledging I don't have all the answers, but I think leading is working with your other C suite functions and trying to develop a prioritized approach to adoption. You know, this isn't like putting the spreadsheet out in, in your business 20 years ago. This isn't like giving people the Internet and letting them figure it out 15 years ago. This is different. This needs to be point number one, needs to be nested with low order value activities and potentially critical quality, high quality needed activities.

[A]

Can you give me example of both of those?

[B]

Yeah, like, well, high, high quality activity could be in relationship to like an audit activity. Like that's one of the things we're really looking at, right Is how will we use AI to further improve a high quality service like the audit that we provide a low quality, low, low quality but high volume activity could be something like time entry, could be something like meeting administration. One of the activities that I've been doing quite a bit is summarizing meetings, which is it's been good for me, helps me avoid using colorful language by accident. When I see it in a summary, I'm like, I shouldn't use that word there. But those are two examples. But what good looks like to your question is working with the C suite to prioritize the focus. Because if you can imagine taking AI and just spreading it around the environment, that's easy, right? The hard part is actually helping the other peers you work with activate a prioritized agenda. I mean all the old general management things remain true in the AI era. Those haven't gone away. Prioritization, delegation, all those things matter.

[A]

So let's talk about some lessons learned of things that haven't gone maybe as well so our listeners can maybe avoid those areas.

[B]

Lessons learned for me specifically, and I'm still, I would say I'm still cutting my teeth on some of these would be around the traditional data security requirements. I think one of the things that, that I've learned in the last 24 months in the AI era is that I can't look at AI from with my CISO hat on. I can't look at it purely through the traditional secure then enable mindset, right? We, the need for rapid enablement, the need for innovation, it overweights the need in some ways for near term security. So what we're working to and look within Reason. Right. We don't want to.

[A]

This is a fundamental question for the CISO to me which is I have to guard everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially like in certain industries. It's like it's super, super important. But I also am under enormous pressure to go fast, put us in the seat.

[B]

Well, what I'll tell you, it's been a long time since our farmers era together. But this goes back to then. I've always viewed security as a business enabler. And when I got into security the first time in 2000, that's dating myself, security was like past the coffee machine in the data center. I think what we've seen is that security has moved up critically. I would argue prior to AI, security may have been one of the hottest technical topics. Right. So I think what CISO's the good ones in my opinion are doing is they're anticipating the needs of their organization relative to change and innovation and they're trying to target the must do security things really to what the must do things are. And I think that's a judgment call and that we need to make in helping organizations because oftentimes CEOs, CEOs, other leaders get presented with this kind of Star Trek Kobayashi Maru. You remember when Kirk got that test to be captain.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Unpassable. Right. A lot of times the CEO gets the no choice. Exactly. The no choice option. And I think great CISOs have this opportunity in the Gentec era to facilitate that innovation. It's a huge opportunity. Now of course there's a little bit of risk wrapped up in that and some of that it will be career risk. Because leaning into this, not for me, it's a foregone conclusion. One needs to lean into this. Others may view this as something they can manage with policy and controls. Purely. I disagree with that.

[A]

But this is, this is. You're talking about a major evolution of many CISO roles from a game where to a gate opener where you are not just making rules, you are suggesting pass.

[B]

Is that right? Yeah. And that's how I think I ended up getting sucked into the CIO world. Right. Was I was the guy that did that. But I think coming back to what's important to the listeners to me, innovation in the case of AI is going to involve rapid experimentation, failure. You want to get to failure and then learning and then iterating off the failure. The shorter we can contract that cycle, the faster we can get to what good looks like. The quicker we can differentiate our business, the quicker we can win. If we drag that process out, the opportunity cost and time and money is too high.

[A]

So let's, let's write the marketer into this story and tell me how the marketers can help the CISO and the CIO do their job in this and how marketers can actually. Well, then we can go to adoption and culture. But first tell me how the marketers can interface way better with their CIOs and CISOs.

[B]

You know, I, when I this has been on our mutual calendars for a number of weeks. So I had some opportunity in my travel and preparation to think that you anticipated frankly this question. And to me there's a couple things in my 25 year career that I've experienced that I think are relevant when it comes to marketers. I mean, to me, number one, we all know what good marketing looks like when we experience it. To me, the best marketing anticipates my problems. And so my hope would be is that marketers, folks in sales roles, folks that are helping message and messaging. Messaging is art. As you know, they're going to really start by trying to understand those of us sitting in these seats and really anticipating our challenges. And I think challenge number one right now is how to pick. Like how do you pick in a sea of choice, the tech companies because for most folks they're not going to want to dance with everybody like I'm trying to do. For most folks they're going to want to pick a few. I think that's issue one. I think issue two is how do you deliver into the relationship a message that the customer can then turn and pivot and use as they are your internal champion, what is the message that that person can then consume and then take to use internally to get the rest of their peers aligned.

[A]

So if I'm sitting there in marketing, one of the things that almost always happens, and you saw it in Martech stack, I'm sure you're seeing it here is the marketer will go out and find they will say it is moving too slow or I got a new personalization tool or I got this new way of doing it and then they'll come to it or so later. How do you recommend the marketer help navigate what they need with the huge demands on the CIO and the ciso.

[B]

I think you so this is going to go a little bit contrary to where most markets.

[A]

That's all right. We love controversy on the show.

[B]

But I would say think about the architectural stack you're living in a little bit. What I have seen where most CMOs really struggle internally when they want to get the budget they want or they want to drive the tech stack they want is they don't limit themselves in the first instance. So they come in and they say I'm not going to pick any specific vendor, but they come in and they say I want a piece of that and I want three pieces of this, I want four pieces of that, I want this customized thing over here. And then the CIO in that instance is going, well, crap, how do I make all that stuff fit in our ecosystem? So answer one is invest a little time and hopefully you've got a good IT colleague sitting between the two organizations who helps you with this. But like we have but advance in the first instance understanding of your environment. Secondly, if able, try to understand where the overall organization is going from a technical perspective. And then thirdly, enrich the CIO a bit with a little ground game in advance of pushing what you want. Come in there with some info about the two or three companies you're interested in and why. Most of the time the CMO just goes over the top of the organization and that can work. But I would do that as a secondary strategy in the first instance because I have to advocate, of course on behalf of my colleagues, I would say try to work with us.

[A]

Well, I hear you saying, correct me if I'm wrong, you ought to have a working knowledge of the entire tech stack of the company and then a somewhat deeper knowledge of the Martech stack.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

And then thirdly, an understanding of some of the pressures on the IT group.

[B]

Well, and where the, and where the broader organization is going. Because as I mentioned to you in the opening of our call today, you need to think about context really matters, not only for AI but for MarTech. Context being where are we on our cloud journey, who are our primary technology architectures we're working with, how, when's our contract up?

[A]

Right.

[B]

All those things are really important strategic inputs. What people typically get wrong in technology. And Mike, look, technology, not unlike marketing, I would argue it's a highly subjective discipline and in its worst cases in case of it, when you overly subjectify it, you end up with duplication, non standardization and a whole other host of problems. And you don't want to be the CMO three or four years in where you get indicted for a bunch of investments that aren't paying off technical, you don't want to be that person. So what you want to do is try to take those as inputs. Right. Now let's move to the second scenario. Not to over answer here, but I think it's relevant.

[A]

No, I think, look, I think you should go deep on this because I think this is one of the fundamental things that can make or break a marketing department.

[B]

So let's move to the second scenario whereby you, you're the CMO and you don't feel like you have a dance partner in it. In that case, the right people to work with are probably the COO and the cfo. And it goes right back to my earlier advice which is understanding the investment, the broader capex investment agenda of the business and then making sure that you stack the mar stack priorities aligned with those. And I think if you focus on, in that case on standardization and the direction of travel, you're going, I think you can drive a lot of benefits. So let's bring a real world example to this without mentioning vendor names.

[A]

There we go. No vendor names.

[B]

Let's say you're with a given cloud organization. We'll just say it that way. And let's say that cloud organization, maybe they had, that organization also offers 75% of the tech in your marketing stack that you want. But it's not the tool you dream of. It's not the tool, you know, it's.

[A]

Not the sexy not that AI tech martech stack.

[B]

You go with that anyway. Yeah, you go, we go with that anyway. Because being able to be viewed to me, any organization that doesn't manage for efficiency and effectiveness is, is not as a, is a stock to short. Right? You don't, that's not a good long term horizon. You need to acknowledge as, as a marketing officer that cost matters. So if you come into the argument saying, listen, I'm gonna propose XYZ because it fits with our overall cloud strategy, I think that has much less opportunity for resistance than you will get. If you come in and say, here's this unicorn marketing stack that I want. If you force that through and it doesn't have a huge home run now you're stuck with that kind of around your neck. Right? And I don't want that to happen to CMOs out there.

[A]

I think this is an important part. And then I also think if I have a company that is not on the front end of it has a bunch of legacy systems where I want and I'm looking at the marketing saying, geez, you know, I want to put in a lot more personalization, I want to put in a bunch of AI tools, how do I know if I'm ready or not? And then how do I partner to help with particularly, you know, some of the legacy systems can be very limiting. How do I, how do I play in that if I'm on the marketing side?

[B]

I think you go with an outsourced strategy that instance and I think you basically we all, you and I having both changed roles a few times in our careers. When you come in as a new senior executive you have this three to six month window and I think it's really critical to use that onboarding time to look at the legacy estate. And if you come back and you determine that the cost to uplift that legacy estate is a massive one time investment, I would probably go with a sourced strategy in that instance. Now here's where I think you have to be artful. In the case of AI, there's a number of activities that everybody, including professional services consultants have already concluded there's a high degree of benefit for AI to be applied legal, accounting, programming and marketing. Therefore, in this instance you would want to net your ask against an internal AI strategy that would look to automate a lot of the kind of traditional work that you would otherwise source. So don't, simpler words. I'd say don't take 100% of your sourcing strategy and source it. Take the must source piece, source it and then retain an AI. Ify not proper English here but AI.

[A]

We're go with it. I like it, we'll go with it.

[B]

Aifi the piece that you run in your retained org but make sure key point in your strategy. When you talk to your peers, you explain to them that hey, 20 to 30% of this traditional marketing activity we're going to eliminate through automation ourselves the remainder we're going to source and here's why.

[A]

But this requires, and we talked about this on a lot of our shows, that you have a very deep working knowledge of the company strategy at least workman like knowledge of the tech.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a financial understanding of the company.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I think those, you know, those are big points. There's one other thing. All the CIOs I know say don't go rogue. Do you, do you buy that or not?

[B]

I think the only way you go sometimes having gone rogue, I mean I think the way you, I think the way you go rogue is when you conclude you must. So it's in that first, you know, three to six months in the role, if you determine that you need kind of a Trojan horse type strategy, then then rogue is an option. But if you do that, you invariably, we're stating the obvious to the smart folks listening, but invariably you need to make sure you have the right Internal stakeholder support, which means you got the CEO, you got the coo, whatever, whoever that is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You explain to them what, why rogue you know, is the right way. Now, let's bring it back to your legacy example. If you evaluate the legacy tech stack in this organization you're in and you say the cost of uplift is so demonstrably high.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It doesn't make sense, then rogue becomes a valid strategy. Where rogue is a lazy strategy is when you skip that step. When rogue is, is the wrong strategy is when you pick a technology that is at right angles with the investments the rest of the company's making. That's. That's not a move that I would make lightly.

[A]

Hey, let me ask you this. Will most CIOs and CISOs acknowledge the need to go rogue if. Well presented by the marketer?

[B]

Probably not. Because. Because I think it's comfortable resting one's weight on precedent. And I, while you and I, I think we would acknowledge that we're cut from a little different cloth and those that have worked with us probably would say the same. But like, everybody comes to this decision with their own biases. And if you're a CISO and you're trying to make a decision that you think you can defend in 24 months or a CIO, sometimes leaning on that precedent is a more comfortable place to be. Earlier in our conversation, I said that I believe personally, both CIOs and CISOs, in my opinion, have to position themselves several incremental steps ahead of where the rate of change is in the business. Right. By, by definition, I'm not in that group, but we need to acknowledge that some will be and they have their reasons.

[A]

Okay, so if I shorthand all we just said, if you say you should still try and get the CIO and the ciso, if you're going rogue to get on your side, and then if they, they're not going to do it, then maybe you go around them, but that should be your last choice.

[B]

I think so. But I also think we have to acknowledge that when you're in whatever C suite you're in, typically you're going to have people that are allies because they're bought in with the agenda, or you have a mutual affinity for one another, and then you're going to have people who are not. And, and I think it's okay as long as the importance of the decision is. Rises to a certain level. Like, I don't pick fights with people internally at PwC over incremental stuff. But like, if, if I'm convinced on a macro point that there's a critical necessity for change on behalf of our partners and, and clients and employees. I'm pretty persistent about advocating for that. But I don't just rely on my own judgment. Right. I borrow perception, I check in with my peers. I, I ask for people to push back. Like, you know, and I think that's where people. Now we're getting deep into philosophy.

[A]

But no, but I think it's good. I had the same thing, which is 80% of the fights don't really matter, so you don't have to win them.

[B]

No, but I think, but I think, I think, I think where people could invest more in is in the following. Just being in a C suite title, it doesn't entitle you to anything. Right. And power, power. In my experience, like anytime I quote touch power, like I'm going to make a decision about something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't like it. Like I immediately go, why am I alone here? Like, what's going on? Like, so I think where new CMOs can, can learn from my mistakes, frankly, is just to be extra cautious and look around and define your decision based on who's shoulder to shoulder with you. If you're all alone, then you really need to reflect on am I in the right place?

[A]

I think that's good, really good advice. Before we get to our last question, free CIO or CISO advice to the thousands of marketers and agency folks listening to the show. You know.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, look, wow. So it's a privilege to get that question. What I would tell you is if I think if I look, if I pulled up my LinkedIn inbox, I could give you 10 or 20 examples of what not to do on a daily basis from organizations that you know and ones you don't. So what I would say is substantive knowledge of the problems that CISOs and CIOs are confronted with is the most tangible credibility in establishing the relationship. And I think a CMO or a marketer needs to. And the best ones I've worked with understand the end customers issues and you can try to overcome a lack of understanding with a great personality and a persistent approach. But I think actually what really makes a tangible long term relationship, at least for me, is someone that understands what I'm dealing with.

[A]

Yeah. Do the work. Do the work.

[B]

Help me solve my problems. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So this brings us to our traditional last question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Funniest story you can tell on the air and. Or any practical advice we haven't discussed yet. You can Take one or both of those, but you must take at least one.

[B]

I'll take. I'll take them both, but I'll take the funny at my expense exam first. So when we were together at Zurich, we were both based out of LA and I was working us on a global job. So I got sent over to Europe for a board meeting. So, you know, pack my bag, go to lax, take that flight you took a million times, fly over to Zurich. So I wake up that morning about an hour before the board meeting, and I realize I don't have dress socks. And I'm sitting in that. I won't describe it with the wrong language, cheap hotel not far from the office in Zurich. And I'm literally thinking, how am I going to get socks, like, before this meeting? And so I was fortunate enough to find a colleague who I won't name who saved my life, but all he had was black tube socks. So he brought me black tube socks 30 minutes before the board meeting. And so that's my funny story because I felt pretty embarrassed about that.

[A]

It would have been a lot better if those socks were like some screaming color.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Especially in Zurich. Yeah, I know.

[B]

But I felt like they were, trust me, the whole time. All right, so as to advice, I mean, I think I gave a little bit. A little bit of it before. I mean, to me, the gap between average and great in marketing is observable. Right. And so my suggestion is, if you got into this space because you're passionate about it, double down on what made you passionate about it. Learn the. If you haven't or you are, continue on that journey of learning those general management principles, Mike, that I know that you learned and reflected in your career that I've had to learn. Because you can't just be like, in my case, I can't just be a good tech guy and succeed. I have to master those other components which we've talked about today. And my unsolicited advice to the group is don't underinvest in those. Don't underinvest them. Don't just be amazing at marketing. Also understand organizational dynamics and politics and prioritization, all those things we talked about. And when you bring those together like I've seen you do, I think it will have an amazing impact on you getting where you want as a marketer.

[A]

I think that is a great way to end the show. So thank you for that and thanks, James, for being on the show and thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. All our shows drop on Tuesdays and if you're enjoying our content, please like, share and subscribe. You can find all of our over 150 shows on Apple, YouTube and Spotify, which include Colonel Mustard in the study with the job spec what your CFO wants to tell you, but won't the AI application layer the good, the bad, and the ugly? And it's a bird, it's a plane. Holy shit, it's AI Parts one and two. Hey all you marketers stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential. When is the last time you researched something on a website? If you're like most people, AI did that work for you. And that raises a question. If AI is doing the work, what is your website really for? This behavioral shift means AI bots are becoming your most important new visitors, a challenge our sponsor, Scrunch, is taking head on. Scrunch is the customer experience platform that helps you understand how AI agents experience your site, when and why they show up, and what's blocking them from being retrieved, trusted or recommended. Scrunch shows you the content and citation gaps and technical blockers and helps you fix them so your brand shows up when consumers start with AI because your most important site visitor might not be a human for our listeners, Scrunch is providing a free website audit that uncovers how AI sees your site and how you're showing up in AI versus the competition. Run your site through [e-mail] CMO.