Jim Stengel | Former P&G CMO |A Top Marketer Riffs on What It Takes to be a Successful CMO

Summary

CMO Confidential Podcast Summary: Jim Stengel on What It Takes to Be a Successful CMO

Podcast Information:

• Title: CMO Confidential
• Host: Mike Linton
• Guest: Jim Stengel, Former P&G CMO
• Release Date: November 26, 2024
• Description: CMO Confidential delves into the intricacies of being a Chief Marketing Officer, exploring the challenges, decisions, and strategies that define this pivotal C-suite role.

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Introduction to Jim Stengel

In the latest episode of CMO Confidential, host Mike Linton welcomes Jim Stengel, a seasoned marketing leader with 25 years at Procter & Gamble (P&G), where he served as the Global Marketing Officer overseeing an $8 billion budget. Beyond his tenure at P&G, Jim has authored Unleashing the Innovators, founded his own consulting firm, taught as an adjunct professor at UCLA and Northwestern, and launched the CMO Podcast. Their shared P&G legacy and membership in the Marketing 50 set the stage for a deep and insightful conversation.

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Dominant Themes in Today’s Marketing Landscape

Jim outlines three primary themes shaping the current marketing environment:

1. Attention and Entertainment (00:03:12):

   • Quote: “We are all in the attention game. If you're not able to get someone's attention, you can't even start.” (00:03:12)
   • Insight: In an era overwhelmed with distractions, capturing and maintaining consumer attention is paramount. The resurgence of the Barbie brand exemplifies how strategic entertainment can elevate a brand’s presence, leading to improved stock prices, sales, and future partnerships.

2. Creativity as a Core Capability (00:03:20):

   • Quote: “Creativity and attracting creative people are essential for thriving in today’s marketplace.” (00:04:50)
   • Insight: Creativity drives engagement and innovation. Platforms like TikTok highlight cultures that reward and harness creativity, demonstrating its critical role in successful marketing strategies.

3. Purpose-Driven Branding (00:03:20):

   • Quote: “A strong purpose on a brand is about growing the brand and making an impact on people's lives.” (00:05:21)
   • Insight: Purpose must be intrinsically linked to business strategy, going beyond cause marketing to solve real business problems and enhance customer lives. Microsoft serves as a prime example, showcasing how a clear purpose can transform corporate culture and drive sales.

4. The CMO as Chief (00:05:22):

   • Quote: “CMO is 90% chief, 10% marketing.” (00:06:54)
   • Insight: Being a CMO extends beyond marketing functions; it involves leadership, strategic decision-making, and collaboration across the executive suite. Success hinges on viewing the role as integral to overall corporate strategy.

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Defining Purpose in Marketing

Jim delves deeper into the concept of purpose, distinguishing between altruistic goals and purposeful business strategies:

• Integrating Purpose with Business Strategy (00:07:12):

  • Quote: “Purpose has to be front and center and rooted in your business strategy and solving business problems.” (00:07:12)
  • Insight: Purpose should enhance the customer’s life in ways that align with the company’s core functions. For example, a personal care brand like Dove focuses on small, daily impacts that cumulatively create significant brand value.

• Small p vs. Big P Purpose (00:08:52):

  • Quote: “The head of Unilever’s personal care business talks about purpose with a small p, and sometimes it leads to big P.” (00:10:52)
  • Insight: Small p purpose centers on everyday enhancements for consumers, which can organically lead to larger, more impactful brand missions. This approach ensures relevance and consistency in delivering value.

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Transitioning from CPG to Other Industries

Discussing the shift from Consumer Packaged Goods (CPG) to other sectors, Jim emphasizes the evolving role of marketers:

• Elevating Marketing in Non-CPG Sectors (00:13:19):

  • Quote: “Marketing in non-CPG is getting elevated, with marketers expected to be active members of the leadership group.” (00:13:19)
  • Insight: As marketing gains prominence outside traditional CPG roles, understanding the new industry’s business drivers and aligning marketing strategies with broader corporate goals is essential. Engaging with diverse departments helps establish marketing’s value.

• Leveraging CPG Skills in New Domains (00:15:17):

  • Quote: “CPG marketers bring customer insights, consumer closeness, and creativity to new industries, ensuring their success.” (00:15:32)
  • Insight: Skills honed in CPG—such as deep consumer understanding and creative innovation—are transferable and highly valuable in other sectors, facilitating effective marketing leadership.

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Innovation and AI in Marketing

Addressing the integration of Artificial Intelligence (AI) into marketing, Jim provides a balanced perspective:

• AI as a Strategic Tool (00:19:20):

  • Quote: “AI needs to be linked to your business strategy. Start testing it in areas where it can add value immediately.” (00:19:20)
  • Insight: AI should enhance existing strategies rather than redefine them entirely. Practical applications include improving software development, data analysis, customer service, and creative processes.

• Collaboration and Learning (00:21:21):

  • Quote: “Understand what people are doing outside your category. Organizations like Marketing 50 and the Cannes Festival are valuable for learning and experimentation.” (00:21:21)
  • Insight: Continuous learning and cross-industry collaboration are vital for leveraging AI effectively. Engaging with marketing communities fosters innovation and adaptation.

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Business Education and Leadership Skills

Jim critiques current business school curricula, highlighting gaps in preparing future leaders:

• Emphasis on Soft Skills (00:22:32):

  • Quote: “The softer skills of succeeding in a complex organization—communication, team leadership—are often missing from business school curricula.” (00:22:45)
  • Insight: Effective communication and interpersonal skills are crucial for navigating organizational dynamics and advancing in executive roles. Business education should prioritize these attributes to better prepare graduates.

• Fostering Curiosity (00:24:25):

  • Quote: “Curiosity is the most important characteristic of a successful CMO. It can be a trained and enhanced skill.” (00:24:30)
  • Insight: Encouraging curiosity leads to better problem-solving, innovation, and leadership. Incorporating curiosity development into education and professional training can yield more adaptable and forward-thinking CMOs.

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Future of Media and Agency Business

Jim discusses the evolving landscape of media and agency partnerships:

• Importance of Strategic Partnerships (00:26:47):
  • Quote: “Partnerships with outside experts who excel in areas your company does not are increasingly vital for success.” (00:28:10)
  • Insight: Building strong external partnerships complements internal strengths and drives innovative marketing solutions. Effective vendor management and selecting the right partners are critical for leveraging specialized expertise.

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Practical Advice and Personal Anecdotes

Towards the end of the episode, Jim shares actionable advice and a memorable story from his career:

1. Practical Advice:

   • Take Care of Yourself (00:29:23):

     • Quote: “Take care of your physical and mental health. Don’t let the demands of the CMO role overwhelm you.” (00:29:24)
     • Insight: Maintaining personal well-being is essential for sustained leadership performance and fulfillment.

   • Develop External Mentors and Sponsors (00:29:23):

     • Quote: “Expanding your network outside the company broadens your perspective and fuels curiosity.” (00:29:24)
     • Insight: Building a diverse network enhances creativity and strategic thinking, contributing to career longevity and success.

2. Funny Story:

   • Sampling Campaign Mishap (00:29:23):
     • Narrative: Jim recounts his experience as a general manager in Eastern Europe, where a well-intentioned sampling campaign led to stagnant sales. The excessive distribution of sample packs, unaligned with local consumption habits, resulted in unsold inventory. This misstep underscored the importance of thorough consumer research and market understanding.
     • Lesson: Always conduct comprehensive market research to tailor strategies to local consumer behaviors, avoiding costly mistakes despite prior successes in different regions.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Mike Linton thanking Jim Stengel for his invaluable insights and encouraging listeners to reflect on the discussed themes. Key takeaways include the paramount importance of attention, creativity, and purpose in marketing, the necessity of soft skills and curiosity for leadership, and the strategic integration of AI and partnerships for future success.

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Notable Quotes:

• “CMO is 90% chief, 10% marketing.” – Jim Stengel (06:54)
• “Purpose has to be front and center and rooted in your business strategy and solving business problems.” – Jim Stengel (07:12)
• “Curiosity is the most important characteristic of a successful CMO.” – Jim Stengel (24:30)

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Final Thoughts: Jim Stengel’s candid discussion provides a comprehensive guide for current and aspiring CMOs, emphasizing strategic alignment, personal well-being, and continuous innovation. His blend of professional wisdom and personal anecdotes offers both inspiration and practical strategies for navigating the complex landscape of modern marketing leadership.

Transcript

[Jim Stengel]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the iHear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, iHear everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential, the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linson.

[Mike Linton]

Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them. The teeth Marketing Officer, Confidential CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing officer of Best Buy, ebay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest Jim Stengel. Now this show is brought to you by Props, our title sponsor. Props is a performance driven content platform. They combine the attraction of creator content with the results of paid media. Instead of focusing on impressions or posts, Props takes responsibility for leads and customers. Check them out at Props Co. Today's topic, A top marketer riffs on what it takes to succeed as a CMO today. Now, Jim spent 25 years at P&G, the final seven years as the global marketing officer where he oversaw an 8 billion with a B budget. After that, he founded his own consulting company, wrote a book titled Unleashing the Innovators, became an adjunct professor at UCLA and Northwestern, and started a podcast called the CMO Podcast. Jim, we're all waiting for you to accomplish something we can be proud of. So I'm glad you're on the show. Full disclosure, I've known Jim for a number of years as we are both Procter and Gamble alums and original members of the marketing 50. And I'm really excited to have him on the show. Welcome, Jim.

[Jim Stengel]

Thank you, Mike. Hey, the global reunion of png, you know, happened two weeks ago. Did you go?

[Mike Linton]

I missed that. Sorry. I heard it was great though.

[Jim Stengel]

Yeah, it was in D.C. i didn't go either. It was the. I was actually given the McElroy Award at that, at that event. The deal was you had to show up and give a speech and I was very honored. And Ed Tasia, who organizes this whole thing, I accepted. I booked it on my calendar. Then my daughter decided to get married that weekend. So I called Ed and I said, ed, I. I gotta get. I gotta go to my daughter's wedding. And he. He was like, that's the only excuse for you not showing up. So we had a beautiful wedding a few weeks ago, and I made, you know, I made a video of it, and it all went well.

[Mike Linton]

Well, congratulations. At last, someone has recognized your accomplishment.

[Jim Stengel]

Thank you, Mike.

[Mike Linton]

Congrats on the wedding. So, hey, Jim, let's start. Give us an overview of the dominant themes you are seeing out there today in the marketing landscape.

[Jim Stengel]

You haven't lost your PNG style there, Mike. You ask me for can do I have to limit this to one page or. Or one.

[Mike Linton]

Three bullet points.

[Jim Stengel]

Okay, very good. All right. Well, the first one, I mean, I grabbed this coming out of the can festival this year, which is a good barometer for what's on people's mind. And it's the biggest gathering of marketing people in the world. And a lot of people are just saying, you know, we are all in the attention game. And so it's so, so hard to get engagement. There's so many distractions. The. The generations that are emerging as consumers are obviously distracted by a lot of things. So I think we just have to. What. You have to think about yourself in the entertainment and attention game, and if you're not able to get someone's attention, you can't even start. We used to call it awareness in the old days, I guess, but now I think attention is a much stronger word. And you don't have to look any farther than Barbie this summer to see, you know, this is a. A very old brand that has had tough times and good times. And that movie put them at, you know, at the center of popular culture. And look what it's done for their stock price, their brand, their sales, and their future partnerships. It's kind of established a platform for that brand, for that brand that can go so many places. So attention and entertainment, I think, is a big theme. I'd say the second one, and closely related, is creativity as a capability. You know, we don't talk about that enough. It's a big word like innovation, like culture. But if you're not able to harness creativity and attract creative people to your company and in your partnerships, good luck in any marketplace, but especially today's. And, you know, you don't have to look further than TikTok on that. Right. They are a culture that. However your opinion is of them, they are a culture that rewards creativity, looks for creativity, and works with creative people extremely well.

[Mike Linton]

And they also. That is entertainment, too.

[Jim Stengel]

Totally, Totally.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Jim Stengel]

Yeah, totally. And I think the third one I would underscore and maybe I'll take another one after. This is purpose. Right? And I know, I know we're going to talk about that. I think it's, it's. It's a word we've been wrestling with for decades. I think it's still misunderstood. You know, a strong purpose on a brand is about growing the brand and making an impact on people's lives. Companies and brands who still do that do better in the, in the market, attract more customers, attract better employees. So I think it's still, and I think Microsoft is a beautiful example of that. And look at that company. They have an incredible leadership team, an incredible leader, an incredible sense of purpose in the world. And you can see what's happening to their culture and to their. And to their sales. And then the last one, I will borrow a quote from my podcast show from one of the CMOs I interviewed. I think it was the Wendy CMO, but I love this quote. He said, you know, CMO is 90% chief, 10% marketing. 90% chief, 10% marketing. So when you're a CMO, you have to think about yourself as part of the C suite, part of the leadership of the company, a representative of the company, a peer of the other functions. And if you have that mentality, you seek to make a difference as a corporation, leveraging your skills, your talents, and your organization. You work well with other functions, you will have a good career. If you don't do that, you have one stint as a cmo.

[Mike Linton]

In a little bit, I want to drill down on the creativity versus efficiency story that I see in marketing. I love the 90 10% thing. Let's talk about purpose a little bit. And you've written a lot about it. Why don't you describe purpose for our listeners and talk about what it actually means and how it shows up?

[Jim Stengel]

Well, the first point I would make about it purpose is when it's not linked to your business and your business outcomes and your business strategy, it's not going to work. It's not social marketing, it's not cause marketing, it's not philanthropy. It's not doing well. It can inspire all of that, and it usually does. But I get frustrated at conferences when there's a purpose speech and the person gets up there and talks about basically cause marketing or social good. Those are all finding good things that can help a brand. But purpose has to be front and center and rooted in your business strategy and solving business problems that you have as an organization. So that's the first point I would make. The way I shortcut it, after establishing that principle is it's about the impact you are seeking to make in the lives of the people you serve or you seek to serve. It's as simple as that. If you can have a higher impact on their life, make a bigger difference in their life through your products and services in a way that's relevant for your category, you will, if you execute well and consistently over time, you will beat your competition.

[Mike Linton]

You are drawing a distinction here though, into the, between the, this purpose of, of altruistic good or helping society and the purpose of the brand or the product or service doing something important for the consumer in their day to day or week to week life. Right. Because I think it's important for you to draw this out a little bit for our listeners and put the fine point on what you mean by what this does for the end user in terms of purpose and give us a good example if you can.

[Jim Stengel]

I think we, we get wrapped up sometimes and I think especially in tech, you know, what are the features, what are the benefits of the product? You know, we get very feature driven, we get very functional, we get very sort of right brain. It becomes a game of do I have more features than my competition. P and G, at its worst was very functional, very purposed or very, very product and bene product benefit oriented. That's all fine. I mean, you have to have fabulous products if you're going to be purpose oriented. But it's about thinking about the customer's life holistically and the role you play in and can you bring a little bit of ease or simplicity or speed or joy to that person's life in a way that's natural for your category. So it kind of lifts it up. It has a bigger question about if we can, if we're in the baby care business or the software business or the auto business, you know, what role do we have in helping that person live their life better, simpler, reaching more potential. And I think the companies that ask those questions and are relentless about that, their innovation is better, their engagement with their employees is better and their outcomes with customers are better. So I think that's what it's about. Mike. And the head of, the head of marketing for Unilever's personal care business, which includes of course, Dove, this guy named Samir Singh. I had him on my show, I don't know, a few months ago. I just recommend your listeners to listen to him. He speaks about as well on purpose as anyone I've ever heard and he really does talk about purpose with a small P Not a big P. Yeah. And at least when you're in the CPG business, it's about daily life. Right. So what little things can you do to help people in their daily life? And the sum of that equals something pretty important. But I love how he makes a distinguished big. He says when you have the small P, right, sometimes it leads to big.

[Mike Linton]

P. I agree with this.

[Jim Stengel]

But get the small P right.

[Mike Linton]

Well, yeah. Suppose you're on the big P, like you're going to change the world because you're selling mayonnaise or, Or. Or vipers or something. Yeah. Yeah, maybe you will. But in the end, if I could. If you can make me have a great parenting experience, because changing the diaper is really easy and it's not that expensive or it's really simple and it's convenient, that is worth a lot to me as a consumer. And I think that's the purpose we're talking about versus, you know, we're trying. We're trying to solve. Solve some of the massive world problems as.

[Jim Stengel]

And you know, Mike, the answer is always in your organization.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Jim Stengel]

If you really go out and talk to your employees, your associates about, are we doing enough to help our customers? I mean, just a simple question. What more can we do? There's always more. There's always innovation. There's always ideas. So I think it's always the answer, is my purpose working or do I need a purpose or do I need a higher purpose? The answer is always in your team. So we help. And I think, also think that people don't often enough go back to the idea of the brand when it was founded. Every founder has an idea that inspired them to commit their life to that. And there's always interesting stories and inspiration and ideas and thoughts. And going back to the beginning, I.

[Mike Linton]

Think that is a good way to wrap on purpose. I want to move over into. You know, you talked earlier about creativity and the need for creativity, and I want to. This is kind of a long question. So if you're in consumer goods, you're kind of in. There's a belief in the brand, there's a belief in the creativity, there's a belief in the long term. And often, you know, the marketer is in the driving function there. When you leave consumer goods, a lot of times it's a whole new ballgame where people see marketing completely through different lenses. And a lot of times there is not that belief in the creativity, not that belief in the long term. Marketing tools tell us how folks can make that work if they're not in CPG when they make a jump over to a new new industry.

[Jim Stengel]

Well, I think, hey, I think it's changing Mike. I look at, you know, whether it's mel selker at LinkedIn or carrier train Technologies or Chris who just left Microsoft, I think marketing in non CPG is getting elevated. I think people are getting. They have a seat at the table. They're expected to be an active member of the leadership group. But I guess the short answer to your question is when you flip out of CPG or a category where marketing is really valued and into another category, I would say understand what drives the business, how you make money, what's the business model, what are others opinions of the impact that you could potentially make on the outcomes of the company. And in every time I've changed jobs and people that I work with who have changed jobs. If you go and interview your colleagues at your level around the company, whether or not they're in product supply, R and D, finance, sales, hr, what are their opinions about the success of the company? What are their opinions about the impact and value of marketing? What would they do if they were you? If you do those interviews sincerely and synthesize that you will have your agenda and it will be important to the. It will be important to the enterprise.

[Mike Linton]

I agree with that. I think one of the things I would also recommend is if you can do that in the interview process, you will learn if the job even better.

[Jim Stengel]

Even better.

[Mike Linton]

It's a lot better because you will learn if there's a realistic expectation or marketing and if they're really to the point about purpose and the consumer really having the final vote on whether you're succeeding or not. You will learn whether or not the company sees the marketing face the right way or not.

[Jim Stengel]

The other add on I would give to that Mike, if I think why CPG marketers have historically been successful when they leave in other categories generally is they do bring their skills that they learned to a new space.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Jim Stengel]

So you know, and the skills are really are. If you, if you think about why P and g is almost 200 years old, they're crazy about the customer, consumer, they call it understanding the consumer, measuring their impact on consumers lives. And they're. And they're really, really, really strong about developing leaders. Right. So so bring the skills on customer insights, consumer closeness. Good marketers or strategists bring those skills and good marketers elicit a high level of creativity and innovation from their teams. So if you go into a new category and you're consumer obsessed you understand how to unleash creativity, you know, and you're, and you're a great strategist. You will succeed.

[Mike Linton]

I, I agree with this. I, I also want to highlight you mentioned math and measures. And I think one of the things that is very important if you're leaving cpg, where there's almost always a slew of measures that everyone understands when you get to the new place, they don't have the marketplace and marketing measures. You have to put them in or they will give them to you and they will often be wrong.

[Jim Stengel]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

You know, one of the things we talk about on the show a lot is sales overnight, brand over time, and the challenge that some marketers have. And I've experienced this personally in places like PE or private equity or venture capital where the long term isn't viewed as that long. And what's your recommendation for marketers in that kind of space, either on the way in or if they find themselves in that job where the long term isn't that long, how do you recommend they manage that kind of job?

[Jim Stengel]

I did a an article in the Harvard Business Review this spring in the May June edition with a professor at Wharton and a colleague of mine in a company where I'm on the board. And it was really all about this brand marketing versus performance marketing tension. And what we found in the research we did and the point of view we took in the story is there should not be a tension. Every brand marketing, by the way, can drive sales overnight and really great performance marketing can grow a brand. And the biggest issue we have in companies that see them in different spaces in the organization is they don't work together, they don't share a common vision, and they don't share KPI's key performance indicators. So if the performance marketers are measured on their brand and brand marketers are measured on sales together, they will work together, the work will be coherent and the entire brand will lift. And that's what we found in our research. So for those listeners whose quote performance marketers, I don't even love these words, but they are what they are. Performance marketers have the same KPIs as the brand marketers and vice versa. You will see different kind of outcomes.

[Mike Linton]

Look, I've always done also, if you have to pay off it too, you can't just give the measure, you have to pay. So or what happens is everyone is taking money from the other pile on their metric. Let's talk about innovation a little bit in the face of what is this revaluation, particularly of A lot of the tech and the startup companies, because you've talked and you think a lot about innovation and then you have this AI thing sitting on top of innovation. Talk about innovation, marketing, AI. How should people be thinking about it going forward and what the marketplace is today and going into the next year?

[Jim Stengel]

Well, the marketplace and all times values innovation, right? So if you walk away from that, even in tough times, you are mortgaging your future. And we don't. We have no shortage of cases of companies that have done that well and those that have not AI, you know, it's. If you're not using it personally, start, right? And if your company doesn't at least have a. I looked at some recent data about number of companies who are experimenting with AI. I mean, it's, it's very high, as you would expect, 80, 85%. The ones that see it as fundamental to the strategy. About half the company survey say this. But the learning I've had in using it myself and with the people that I associate with is, you know, you need to link it to your business strategy and so it. And then start testing things. So if you feel like it can help you write software better, then start using it. Do you think it can help you build better architectural designs for gardens? If that's your business, start doing it. If it can help you synthesize data better and write summaries, which is how I'm using it, get on with it. If it helps you start speeches, get on with it. But I think in the creativity communication field, it's already having a large impact. In customer service, it's already having a large impact, I think in data analysis and benchmarking, it's having a big impact. So. And certainly we did a workshop on this at the Cannes Festival this year with about 60 marketers, and they all had ideas, they were all experimenting, they were all learning from each other. So I guess the other point I'd make, I'd say, Mike, is understand what people are doing outside your category. That's the benefit of organizations like the Marketing 50, the ANA, the Cannes Festival. Get out there and ask other people what they're doing, what's working, what's not.

[Mike Linton]

Good knowledge, good practice. But also don't throw your whole strategy over to something you don't fully.

[Jim Stengel]

No, that's correct.

[Mike Linton]

A lot of. We've had a couple AI specialists on the show and they basically say, look, look first at efficiency gains, later at revenue generation. And we had one futurist say, it's great, it's great for Tests that aren't super important right now but, but there's a lot of those tasks and so you can outsource it to that. He also compared AI to like having 1 million cocky 16 year old intern working for you who will produce a lot of stuff but none of it will be at that creative super height. I think an innovative height you were talking about earlier. I want to shift over to business schools, in particular college and business. I, you know, you're a professor and you've written a lot. Are graduate our business schools teaching the right thing for future business leaders and marketers now? Because there's some people that say they're, they're behind the curve a little bit.

[Jim Stengel]

I think it's mixed, Mike. I think it's highly variable. I think it's very dependent on the professor, of course, it always has been, I guess, but it's a very, you know, the business model of business schools is very dispersed.

[Mike Linton]

Right, right.

[Jim Stengel]

Really the faculty are pursuing many times their own agendas. It's very hard to get a coherent agenda as a dean at any business school. So I think some professors are making an enormous impact on the students in some way less so. I think what's missing in a lot of the curriculum is, are the, the softer skills. All these people are going to leave and most of them have had jobs before, but they're going to walk into jobs where the internal politics, the interpersonal dynamics are what's going to make or break their career and if they don't understand how to navigate that. So I think it is the softer skills of succeeding in a complex organization. I think it's communication skills. No matter how good you are, if you cannot communicate in a simple, straightforward and inspiring way, good luck as you try to advance your career. And I do think this idea of 90% chief, 10% marketing, all the great CMOs of the world, you know this, they're great team leaders. They really, they're about their teams, they see their set, their successes, their team success. And I don't think there's enough pragmatic education on best practices in those areas. So I think it's the softer skills. And your next question will probably be what's really, really missing?

[Mike Linton]

And I think that's a great question, Jim. I think you should answer that.

[Jim Stengel]

I, I think I've been, I've done a lot of thinking about this and a little bit of writing. Nothing that, that I've put out there in the world in a big way. But I, I, I, I've been doing a podcast as you're doing and you're doing it weekly, which is amazing. I've been doing it for five years and interviewing the same kind of people you're interviewing. And I ask a lot of those people what's the most important characteristic of a successful cmo and the most often answer, the most frequently answered, most frequent answer to that question is curiosity. And I mean can. Last year I had Ted Sarandos Netflix in my class. He said curiosity. I had the Unilever CMO in the class curiosity. And start to unpack that. What does that mean? How do you be a curious person? Can you train curiosity? What's, what's good Curiosity and lack of curiosity. And what are the. How do people who are curious spend their time? How do they lead their teams? And so I've done some work on how to sharpen your saw, improve your skills in being curious. And you know what happens with that. It's actually very fun. It is very. And it's very kind of rewarding as a human being. It does change how you spend your time. But I do think it is a skill, it can be taught, it can be learned and it can be applied and can be improved. And I would like to see business schools tackle that in a bigger way. And I've done a bit of teaching on that myself. And it leads to really interesting places.

[Mike Linton]

I think this is a really important point because you see some companies will elevate a CMO based on a bunch of technical box checks. A lot of those CMOs are going to fail because they have not managed all the functions or all the things that they're going to run into. And if they don't, if they just try and math based that like their historical approach, they won't get it right. So. So I think that's an important thing.

[Jim Stengel]

Hey.

[Mike Linton]

Hey, Jim. There's been a ton of change in media and the agency business. Lot of things going on. Where's this all headed?

[Jim Stengel]

Well, I think, you know, if, if you want creativity and you want to be a curious person, partnerships are going to be important. And, and they still are important. You know, the obviously the big holding companies are going through adjustments and replatforming and restructuring. A lot of consolidations happening, as you know. But if you go to most successful brands and you ask them who are the most important people driving those brands, obviously they're going to talk about people inside the company, but they're also going to talk about partnerships. And they might be content partnerships, they might be in some cases celebrity partnerships. It will be Partnerships with a variety of outside people, companies who are really good at what the company's not good at. And so, so I think the world in the future possibly will be even more important to have strong partnerships outside your firm. And. But I think those are shifting and those will continue to shift based on what companies need, you know, the most important question or one of the most important questions we need to ask as senior marketers. What do I want to be great at inside? It's not a new question. And what will I not be great on inside that I want to outsource or find partners for? And I think, you know, companies like P and G have been pretty good at that over time.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Jim Stengel]

And they tend to value their outside partners and they tend to ask them to bring everything to the table in what they're good at. And when you have that dynamic happening and you set the right briefs, the right goals, the right ambitions, you know, you get people who are different from you, who bring different things to the table than you do. And that's where success is. And I think that's perhaps even more the world we're walking into than it has been in the past.

[Mike Linton]

And they get, as more and more particularly in technology emerge, they can go a lot deeper on those issues.

[Jim Stengel]

Correct.

[Mike Linton]

And you can hire all this experience. We have a whole show on vendor management talking about this, which is if you try and do everything, you're going to be doomed. So you got to get really good at vendor management and picking vendors and then partnerships. Hey, Jim, there's a ton of questions I could ask you. So. So maybe you will come back on the show sometime in the future.

[Jim Stengel]

Anytime, Mike.

[Mike Linton]

Thank you. So. So let's finish. It's a two part question. You can take both parts or either one, but you have to take at least one practical advice or funniest story you would like to share with our listeners.

[Jim Stengel]

I love it.

[Mike Linton]

I'll do both.

[Jim Stengel]

I'll do both. And the practical advice, Gosh. I'm gonna, I'm gonna borrow from Antonio Lucio here, who's a friend of mine. You know, he's, he's, he's been, he's been like you, an amazing CMO in many companies over his career. He, he talks. He did a remarkable video when he left Meta. I recommend everyone find it and watch it. And I think there are two, there are a lot of lessons in that video, but two of them resonated with me. And the first one is take care of yourself. Right? Watch your physical health, your mental health, these jobs are hard, they're demanding. I mean, when I came in as CMO at P&G, my CEO at the time, AG Laughley, looked at me and said, don't try to outrun this job. It'll kill you. It'll kill you. And, and then. So take care of yourself and be deliberate about that. Intentional. Don't, don't get sucked up. It will. And, and Antonio talks about mental health, depression, heart attack. You know, he's had some rough times because he didn't make that a priority. And, and then I think a second piece of advice he has in that video, which I think is remarkable and I agree, he said, I was always good at developing my mentors and network and sponsors inside my company. I wasn't good at finding sponsors and mentors outside the company. And he said, and what that does, it expands your thinking, it expands your network, it expands how you view the world, it feeds your curiosity. Curiosity. So, and it's real easy not to do that. Right? Because again, it takes intention, it takes time. But there are massive, massive payoffs to that, I think in being a successful CMO and actually being a fulfilled human being. So those are two really specific things we can all control. And you know, and I couldn't agree with them more. And I mean I've had a great career. Part of it was in a company, part of it's being sort of a portfolio person. I like a portfolio approach to my life. I had the self awareness to say it was time for me to move into a different gear and pursue my own passions at 100% of my time. And I think that has helped me take care of myself and add value, I think in areas that I could not have done in the corporate world. So that's my pragmatic advice. I borrow from Antonio on that and fully credit him. Funny stories. I mean we have a lot of funny stories if we've had long careers in business, especially in marketing. I mean the one that I, I one I think I would share, where there's a good lesson in it is I, I'll try to make this short, but I was sent to Eastern Europe in the early days to be a general manager over a couple of countries and I, we were entering new categories all the time. So I had this brilliant idea. We had a superior product in this one personal care category that we would think big and sample every person in the country. Wow. If, if we would sample every person, we would get dominant share and we'd have higher loyalty because the product was so great. Well, I did that and we spent a lot of our money early in the fiscal year on that and we didn't sell anything for like three months. We sampled and we didn't sell any. Well, I never. Do you ever look at a shipment report and see zero?

[Mike Linton]

Sadly, I have. It's terrible. So what I did.

[Jim Stengel]

This is a good lesson. It's funny now it's not funny. Then I missed my forecast. I, you know, I sampled. My sample pack was like four months of consumption because they used so little of the product because they were. They didn't have a lot of money. They were not used to using this category. And so if I had done a little bit of consumer research, I could have avoided that, but I didn't. I reapplied what worked in some other countries who had different habits. So. So know your consumer in your market or you can have a story that is hard at the time. You know, what is what. What do they say comedy is tragedy that happened one time and becomes comedy. That was tragedy in my career at that point. It became very. A very funny story.

[Mike Linton]

That's an awesome story and I think a great way to end the show. Thank you, Jim. And thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. And thanks to our title sponsor, Props Co. Look for our other shows on Spotify, Apple and YouTube, which include what your agency wants to tell you but won't. Parts 1, 2 and 3. A top executive search person's perspective on marketing, sales and communications. A content streamer's view of Media and B2B Marketing. A report from the front lines. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.