John Rudaizky | Global CBO and CMO, EY | Marketing a Service - The Art of Selling Confidence

Summary

CMO Confidential: John Rudy Ski on Marketing Services and the Art of Selling Confidence

Episode: John Rudaizky | Global CBO and CMO, EY | Marketing a Service - The Art of Selling Confidence
Release Date: April 8, 2025
Host: Mike Linton
Guest: John Rudy Ski, Global Chief Brand and Marketing Officer and CMO of EY

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1. Introduction and Guest Background

In this engaging episode of CMO Confidential, host Mike Linton welcomes John Rudy Ski, the Global Chief Brand and Marketing Officer and CMO of Ernst & Young (EY), who brings over a decade of experience in the service industry. John’s impressive career spans notable positions at WPP, J. Walter Thompson, and Saatchi & Saatchi, culminating in his current role at EY. John sets the stage by highlighting the unique challenges and emphases of marketing within the service sector, contrasting it with his earlier experiences in consumer goods and electronics marketing.

2. Marketing in the Service Business: Confidence as Core

John delves into the essence of marketing services, emphasizing that confidence is the cornerstone of successful service-oriented brands. He explains, “B2B brands are more emotive a decision than any other consumer brand because in the end, it's your career” ([01:54]). This sentiment underscores the high stakes involved in choosing a service provider, where the perceived reliability and competence of the service directly impact the client’s success.

John further elaborates on EY’s approach: “When an agency walks into the room, in the end, I'm going, am I confident with this team that the outcome will be successful for my business?” ([02:05]). This focus on instilling confidence not only in clients but also within EY’s own teams is pivotal to their brand strategy.

3. Measuring Confidence and Trust

The conversation progresses to how EY measures confidence and trust both externally with clients and internally with employees. John notes, “Brands at its core have always built trust” ([03:53]), and they utilize a variety of metrics to assess their standing in the marketplace. This includes deep surveys that explore trust metrics and comparative analyses against peer groups.

On the internal front, John emphasizes the importance of employee confidence: “EY is incredible at measuring how confident our own people are at all times” ([05:35]). By ensuring that their workforce is confident, EY sustains a culture that inherently supports client success.

4. Brand Expansion and Strategy at EY

John discusses EY’s recent brand expansion and strategic refresh under the leadership of their new CEO, Janet Truncarly. The "All In" strategy reflects a comprehensive approach, integrating diverse services to address multifaceted client needs: “We know when we provide the value to our customers, we bring on the full spectrum of services around that” ([08:30]).

He introduces EY’s new campaign slogan, “Shape the future with confidence,” which encapsulates their mission to help clients navigate unprecedented changes in the global landscape, including technological advancements and geopolitical shifts. John advises, “Be authentic to what you do as a brand” ([10:53]), highlighting the importance of aligning brand messaging with actual service capabilities.

5. The Impact of AI and Technology on Marketing

AI and technological advancements are reshaping the marketing landscape, a topic John addresses with nuanced insight. He anticipates a dual impact: while AI may automate certain marketing functions, it simultaneously offers unprecedented opportunities for innovation and personalized marketing. John states, “The winners... will be the people that are embracing it to find what more I can do with it as opposed to fearing what may go away” ([21:59]).

At EY, this translates to upskilling their workforce to leverage AI effectively and building partnerships to enhance their service offerings. John underscores the importance of collaboration: “Look for the ecosystem around you that you can build together rather than trying to figure it out all yourself” ([14:37]).

6. Dealing with PR Challenges and Brand Innovation

Addressing past PR challenges, John reflects on EY’s approach to handling setbacks: “EY has always asked bold questions. The fact that didn’t pan out... there are other outcomes that have been hugely advantageous for the firm” ([19:29]). He emphasizes that innovation involves taking risks, which can lead to unexpected yet beneficial paths.

John shares insights into their brand evolution, such as introducing a spectrum of colors to represent their diverse services, illustrating how bold creative choices can reinvigorate a brand: “Sometimes you end up with a different path but that actually leads to a very powerful path” ([20:27]).

7. The Importance of Creativity in Marketing

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the indispensable role of creativity in marketing. John passionately advocates for creativity as the defining advantage for any brand: “Creativity is the single most defining advantage for a business or for a brand” ([24:30]). He warns against over-reliance on tactics and technology at the expense of emotional and creative engagement.

John highlights EY’s recent marketing efforts, which include emotionally resonant films that foster a deeper connection with their audience: “Creative is a subtle way of persuading people to prefer your brand” ([26:15]). This emphasis on emotional storytelling ensures that marketing efforts build genuine relationships rather than merely optimizing metrics.

8. Advice to Aspiring Marketers and Professionals

In closing, John offers valuable advice for listeners aspiring to build successful careers in marketing:

• Follow Your Passion: “Genuinely believe follow your passion” ([28:27]).
• Work with Innovative Companies: Seek environments that foster creativity and surround yourself with brilliant minds.
• Embrace Collaboration: Leverage ecosystems and partnerships to navigate complex challenges.
• Maintain a Creative Spark: Continuously nurture your ability to generate and sell creative ideas.

John’s final thoughts draw inspiration from Quincy Jones’s book, emphasizing the non-linear and dynamic nature of career journeys: “Nothing is linear, nothing is that predictable. Just keep on it and keep innovating and forging a path” ([29:48]).

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Key Takeaways

• Confidence as a Brand Pillar: In service marketing, building and conveying confidence is crucial for client trust and engagement.
• Comprehensive Metrics: Measuring confidence involves a combination of trust metrics, employee satisfaction, and competitive positioning.
• Strategic Brand Evolution: Adapting brand strategy to reflect changing global dynamics ensures relevance and resilience.
• Embracing AI: Leveraging AI for innovation while mitigating fears of job displacement can enhance marketing effectiveness.
• Creativity Over Tactics: Prioritizing creative, emotional storytelling over purely tactical approaches fosters deeper brand connections.
• Career Growth through Passion and Collaboration: Following passions, seeking innovative environments, and embracing collaboration are key for career advancement in marketing.

This episode of CMO Confidential provides a deep dive into the intricacies of marketing within the service sector, highlighting the paramount importance of confidence, creativity, and strategic adaptation in building a resilient and impactful brand.

Transcript

[Mike Linton]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential.

[John Rudy Ski]

The podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with.

[C]

Being the head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton. Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, ebay, farmers insurance and ancestry.com I'm here today with my guest John Rudy Ski. Today's topic, marketing a service. The art of selling confidence. Now, John is the global Chief Brand and marketing officer and CMO of EY, a company that he has been with for nearly 11 years. He probably has a very long business card with that title. Previously he worked at wpp, J. Walter Thompson and Sachi and Sachi. Welcome John.

[John Rudy Ski]

Hello Mike. Great to be here and great you have a Brit on your show today.

[C]

Yes, it's great of you coming to us from across the pond. So welcome to the show and hey John, let's just start with an overview of marketing in the service business. You've spent most of your career in the service business. What's the view at 30,000ft of marketing in the service business?

[John Rudy Ski]

It's funny because when you talk about my career in the service business, of course the WPP as an agency does in a service business and ey, yet most of my career has been actually selling consumer goods and electronics, you know, in terms of my clients over the years. But when I think about services going from say marketing services to ey, there's one word that keeps them coming out, which is confidence. That in the end you're in the conference game of providing a service that your customer can succeed on. You know, I often think B2B marketing is and B2B brands are more emotive a decision than any other consumer brand because in the end it's your career. If you pick the wrong service provider, your your career could, could not succeed, right? So if you think about it, it's a big, big decision to decide who you want to come in and work with you. And one of the things I think about in certainly coming into the role I have from being on the agency world as a service business, I wish I'd learned it many years is in the end, I'm buying confidence. When an agency walks into the room, in the end I'm going, am I confident with this team that the outcome will be successful for the, for my, for the business that I'm in? And I think in the context of ey, ultimately from a brand point of view, we are helping out give confidence to our people when they walk in the room, that they'll give the right advice to our clients.

[C]

Let's talk a little bit about confidence because I agree with you completely that, you know, a lot of times confidence is the thing you're buying, but how do you measure that and how do you even package it? Like how, like how do you think about it?

[John Rudy Ski]

I mean, it's a, it's a great question, Mike. How do you, how do you. I think brands at its core have always built trust, right? So if you look at a brand in its most basic form, it's always been about trust. I think in, in the context of now and if I may, you know, talk a bit about our, you know, our, our latest campaign where we're actually using confidence in the expression shape the future with confidence in, in many ways what that's doing is it's a simple expression of what we do for our clients. You know, when you think about the business we are in, we have sort of assurance at one end, tax at the other, and then, you know, clearly major enterprise wide transformation, the adoption of AI and the application of AI and across all of those services. What EY does as a professional services point of view is ensure that the client has the confidence to act, has the confidence to make the decision and the confidence that whatever they doing, there'll be a positive outcome. And so confidence is sort of baked into our DNA in many ways of EY is the advice we give is based on, you know, a confident outcome to our client.

[C]

And, and John, how do you gauge where your company is on the confidence scale in the marketplace? Because a huge amount of massive companies and you know, in your business and in, in, in a lot of businesses like yours that are also kind of in there, how do you figure out if you're sitting there as one of our listeners thinking I'd like this confidence thing, how do I know where I am in the grid of confidence? How do you even go about figuring that out?

[John Rudy Ski]

You know, in many ways the, like any brand there's a range of metrics, right? It's never one question. I mean, you know, clearly we do a range of, you know, deep surveys around where we are on the trust metrics. So we'll understand, you know, who do you most trust. So you. We measure, we measure metrics that enable us to determine where we fit on that scale relative, you know, to our peer group, relative to our own standards in many ways. And I think the other part, which, which I'd say equally important in this confidence thing is our own people. So, you know, ey is incredible at measuring how confident our own people are at all the time because I think again, at a people business, it's a dimension between what you're providing to your clients and making sure your people are confident in that.

[C]

So let's talk about the people thing and how you measure their confidence. Because I hear you saying, look, we look at a bunch of variables, one of which we each. Ross, I'm sure there's a consideration variable in there and you know, awareness and, you know, and then you probably look at how many people are giving you an RFP and what kind of close rate you get, and then you're kind of putting that all in your confidence gronculator and saying, here's where we are. How do you do it for your. For your people people?

[John Rudy Ski]

I mean, you know, just, I've brought it out. We don't just look at confidence. I mean, we have a range of metrics, right? In terms of the overall, if you.

[C]

Can find, we would.

[John Rudy Ski]

We.

[C]

I'd love to hear them.

[John Rudy Ski]

You know, I think like any business, if you look internally, externally, as you said, you know, we are looking at consideration set. I mean, again, B2B and B2C are not that dissimilar in terms of looking at the range of metrics. I think, you know, in the context of people, we look inspired about our purpose, which we haven't talked. Again, I think, you know, one of the, one of the big discussion points at the moment around brands is, is people purpose dead? We stick. We believe it's not. I think people still want to think about the organization they work for. So I think when we thinking about metrics, it ranges from, if you like, the questions are more the kind of why do you feel part of the purpose all the way through the, you know, to the satisfaction around being in the, in the organization. I don't need. There's not one silver bullet metric. I think, you know, overall, as you know, in any brand, it's a combination of metrics.

[C]

Got it. And then so you, you're working with, you're looking at confidence of what you're like, how the marketplace is receiving confidence, how your employees feel about the business. And now you're going to work on, you know, expanding the brand. Tell how you went about that and what are the key elements our listeners could take away from if, if they're in a similar situation.

[John Rudy Ski]

Yeah, so, so the springboard for our new brand expansion I would say it's twofold. You know, on the first dimension we had a new CEO lady called Janet Truncarly join big strategy refresh where step one was really looking at, you know, what's the future growth strategy. We branded it all in. It's the name of the strategy but it's also kind of attitude to get it all in. You know, we have this huge spectrum of different services and we know when we provide the value to our customers we bring on the full spectrum of services around that because you know, there are different dimensions to any transportation.

[C]

Tell us all the services yourself or listeners.

[John Rudy Ski]

I, I'll be here for a long time but I mean.

[C]

Start the genus and species long term.

[John Rudy Ski]

If you think about any organization today, the boardroom, you've got everything ranging from supply chain to tax to technology to customer facing innovation. And the way EY is able to operate is whatever issue we can bring in a different, different talents around it. So for example, if you think about a technology transformation today, actually the way you deliver your products or services off the back of it has a tax implication. So the way we think about it is whatever issue you're facing, you are shaping it, but you're building in the different dimensions of the issues, the different needs rather than a singular vertical focus on it. So it's we're able to look across the boardroom rather than vertically, one by one and that, and that is where the true value is unlocked for an organization. So you know, bucket one was really the all in pivot was to say how do we become even, you know, more powerfully focused on our clients and deliver for them in a new way in this era. The other one was as all good brands is what's changing in the world. And I think when you look around the world we are sitting in unprecedented times. If you think about the rate of change, of geopolitical change, technology, AI issues like sustainability, socioeconomic shifts, generational shifts, actually we are sitting in a moment in time with unprecedented changes.

[C]

Yeah. And what's got so much going on right?

[John Rudy Ski]

It is and I think so where, where we did as part of the strategy is to say, you know, ultimately what we know is the organizations that can navigate through these changes thrive. And so that led to kind of part of our strategy, but also became the external strap line, shape the future with confidence, which is, you know, in many ways, you've got to shape it, not be shaped by the events around you. And I think, you know, if you look at time, I mean, many of the organizations you, you, you know, you work with over the years, you know, things happen. It's the way you reacted. And I think even if you go back just to a short time to something like Covid, the organizations that pivoted, they pivoted their distribution, that they pivoted, thrived coming out of that. And so shape the future with confidence is very much an idea right for the times. And it was interesting. I was in Davos last week and it really resonated because actually a lot of the conversation were reacting to what's going on in the world. And then a lot of the conversation was, well, what do we do about it? And so, as I say, new strategy. The world is changing around us. What's the right message in a way to take us forward? And couple of things I'd just say about that. One is it reflects what we do. Again, I think the best brands are authentic. So it's resonated with our people because they know they go into a client's organization and help them figure it out for the future. So it's, it's what they do. And so, you know, you said, what's the advice for people? I'd say be authentic to what you do as a. As a brand. And then I, you know, I think, I think the other thing is, I remember I had, when I was a graduate, my. My father had a book on the side of his shelf called Romancing the Brand. I've never been able to find it again. I don't know what happened to it, but it was a great book around, you know, the work of a brand is, is never done, Never. And actually, you have to keep evolving it because the world changes around your business evolves. And so, you know, I would say in many ways, all of us as CMOs, brand leaders, our job is to keep looking what's coming next and position the brand for the next phase.

[C]

And, and, well, you know, everyone is feeling this change and reacting to it in different ways. If I'm a smaller company and I'm not going to be able to hire you guys or somebody like you, how should I be Thinking about this change and my brand in this space.

[John Rudy Ski]

I mean, well, with no category in mind.

[C]

Yeah, no categories. I'm out there. AI is looking at me. My board wants me to do all this stuff. I don't have very much money. I'm a smaller company. What do I, what can, what can I learn by watching all the stuff you have done?

[John Rudy Ski]

I think all of us are living in an era where we have to keep hungry and learning doesn't matter how big or small you are. So I think, I genuinely mean that. I think all of us have to be out there hungry, adopting. I think, you know, one of the things I think from a smaller business point of view is collaboration. And I think, you know, again, it was interesting. The theme of Davos was about collaboration. And actually it's a very big part of EY's approach as an ecosystem play. We work together. We don't try and do all of ourselves. We recognize that, you know, technology, that with such shifts, partnership is often a way forward. And so I would say, you know, if I was giving anyone advice, is looking for the ecosystem around you that you can build together rather than trying to figure it out all yourself.

[C]

So what I hear you saying is, geez, don't try and do. The pace of change is so great, you shouldn't try and do it all yourself. And if you're smaller, you could actually bring on partners pretty easily because, you know, you don't have to work through a giant apparatus or anything else. And, and that, that is, you know, we, we had, we had one guest on the show who said one of the biggest skills is going to be vendor management over the next 10 years because of functionality and AI and everything else, you're not going to be able to even learn it fast enough. Talk, Talk about that. And then how you are, you're using partners. Tell us how you're doing it.

[John Rudy Ski]

Yeah, you know, I think, I mean, certainly there's a lot of work internally that we do around upskilling. I think, you know, there's no doubt any organization has to keep a mind on upskilling its own workforce because of the rate of change. So we, you know, EY is phenomenal, by the way, in terms of building programs for educating our people on. In this instance, obviously, AI is a big. Is a big play. And then, you know, I think it's a question of, we built a business that works with alliances. It's part of our, you know, one of the things I mentioned, this all in attitude together, all in which is the name of Our strategy, you know, EY is known for collaborating. EY is known for team, for teaming. You know, part of the brand message is the better the question, the better the answer, the better the world works. And actually, part of that is the way we operate is getting different people around a room to solve the question. And we have a process called wait space. It's a convening space, but it's a methodology that recognizes most questions today need complex decisions, and they need a different group of people to solve for it. Which is why we kind of say together all in, we can shape the future with confidence.

[C]

And that's. That's probably different than a bunch of your competitors who actually will be bringing the whole story in. And we're also watching at CMO Confidential, a lot of agencies get a lot, lot bigger. You know, the mergers where there's going to be mega Meg, three mega agencies. How do you think about that space? And, you know, this size matters or it doesn't. Like, like ey's point on that. Let us.

[John Rudy Ski]

Ask me about competitors. Right? And I always say, you know, great businesses and great brands, of course one's aware of what the competitors are, but you build the brand, you build a business that's right for you in serving your clients. So I kind of mean that in, you know, we built a brand, we built a system that works for us and our clients. You know, one of the things that, you know, when I joined was baked into the business was, you know, and I've been lucky also by choice. I've always said, you know, go work for an organization where the CEOs believe in brand. And so CEOs, you know, I've had three since I'm joining here. Deeply believe in the power brand. And one of the words within that is distinctive brand. And so every business has authentically got to work out what its own distinctive place in the world, rather than worrying too much. I think what the competitive play is.

[C]

Yeah, look, and I've been on a bunch of brands where you had super competitors, and you can look at them as the people you have to fight, which obviously you're fighting for market share and everything else. But the other way to look at them is competitors make you much more focused and better. And if you didn't, you would probably have to invent them because it pushes you to innovate and change a lot faster. And I'm sure you saw that in the agency space, for sure.

[John Rudy Ski]

Yeah. You know, there's no doubt the agency world is going through a seismic change. I think all of us in marketing are going to go through a seismic change. You know, AI technology is presenting probably for me one of the most innovative moments, but it's also going to change the way we do business. It's going to change the way we price things, it's going to change the way we execute. You know, we can, we'll be able to do things we've never been able to do before. So how the different agencies organize around that is going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

[C]

So let's talk, let's go back to the brand a little bit, set the stage. You know, you, you had some tough PR news as a company a while ago. You know, coming off a split discussion. Tell us how you dealt with that and, and you know, as, as a CMO and, and all that change. Tell us how you dealt with that.

[John Rudy Ski]

Yeah, I often like to say it's, it's, it's old news now, but people.

[C]

It is old news.

[John Rudy Ski]

People still like asking the question, Mike. So, you know, you know what I'd say is this ey has always asked bold questions. I mean, the DNA better questions is about asking provocative questions, which it did and it explored a bold move. The fact that that didn't pan out is not all something where one should look. The amount of innovation that came off that, I mean, even in some of the work I'm doing came off the innovative thinking we started to do when you started.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I mean, that was a lot of work.

[John Rudy Ski]

So, you know, I think a business that doesn't take a risk, that doesn't look to innovate, you don't always get come out with the outcome that you started with. But actually there are other outcomes of the result of that that have been hugely advantageous for the firm. Is what I would say, is there.

[C]

Any you could share or are they all too top secret to put on air?

[John Rudy Ski]

I mean, it's sort of unfolding really. I mean, you know, I think probably a bit too top secret, but I mean, you know, some of the bits within the execution, you know, I suppose one of the things just to give you a flavor, if you've noticed the rebrand fresh, we've introduced color, the spectrum of color into. We've had a very yellow color. Now it's the spectrum color, I mean, a, that was designed to reflect the spectrum of services at a brand level. But actually because we were starting to look at the future, we thought color was interesting and that probably opened our eyes to a different way of seeing evolving the brand. So you know, innovation comes through taking big questions and bold questions as I say and sometimes you end up with a different path but that actually leads to a very powerful path and I think that's where we're on.

[C]

I like that. You know we'll post, we'll post anything you want in, in the comment section when we post the show. So if you want to, if you want to share your any, any you know, logo work or anything like that, we are happy to post it. You know, you touched a little bit on AI and one of the things we're seeing at CMO Confidential is AI eating up a lot of the entry level marketing jobs at various places. Can you talk about what AI is doing to your business and then what you think marketers should be working on out there as, as they look at, at you know, AI entering at feed into the marketplace.

[John Rudy Ski]

If I had a crystal ball I would be able to give it to you with certainty, but I don't have it.

[C]

I was so hopeful you were going to do break out the ball and tell me something.

[John Rudy Ski]

You know, I think we're at the cross crossroads. We none of us quite know exactly where it's going to pan out. I think there are in, you know, I sort of see two views of it. One is, which is yes, there'll be the democratization of the average and yes some of the functional jobs will be replaced at the other end of might just be the moment where as marketers we can actually innovate in ways that we have not been able to do. So actually you could do more in marketing you think about just even at its most basic sort of one to one marketing, it's been cost prohibitive for the most part and when people have done it's very expensive. So actually now maybe that becomes a real tangible thing we can do. So I suppose for me it's about looking at the efficiency play. But then for me the other flip is how can I accelerate and do even more to build the brand and to market the service. And I think that's the duality that's going to come through and I think the winners in a way will be the people that are embracing it to find what more I can do with it as opposed to fearing what may go away.

[C]

I totally agree with that. We've had a bunch of guests on that said look, you got to be at the top of the funnel and at the bottom of the funnel. AI allows you to personalize things like loyalty programs, anything you want at speed, but not if you don't Know how to use it. Not if you don't have a good database. So there's a whole process I think you're calling it out of. Get going on it any way that you can. I would like to flip to advice for our audience from someone that's been around the service sector for a long time. Keys to success and misperceptions and mistakes people make. In the professional services business.

[John Rudy Ski]

In the professional services.

[C]

Anything you want, anything you want from your seat, you're talking to. You know, we have an awful lot of marketers and people out there. What are the keys to success and what are the mistakes people make in terms of how they think about it or what they do with it when they're in the job?

[John Rudy Ski]

You know, I think for me, I'm orientated to the belief that creativity is the single most defining advantage for a business or for a brand. I really believe in that. And I think sometimes there's been a rush to tactic and technology and I think sometimes the art of emotional creative selling has taken a backseat in the conversation. And I think it's a skill, you know, if you say, what's the one skill that will thrive through this AI period? I still believe the creative spark, the lateral spark that's going to come through and the ability to pick an idea and then herd it through a business, which doesn't always, you know, let's face it, selling in an idea. I'm sure you've been there, right? Selling. Not everyone says the first idea, you walk in, hey, that's great. It takes some selling, it takes some nurturing, it takes confidence going back to the earlier point. So, so, so for me, I would say the mistake is sometimes I think the tactic and the machine of marketing has token over the art of creativity in that process and celebrating that part of it.

[C]

I think this is a good call out. And let me make sure if I, because I, I, I agree with you and I think what you're saying here is the math is the math. But if you don't have some creativity ongoing and are pressing on it, you will optimize the math, but not the brand and not the company and not the financials. Is that a fair statement?

[John Rudy Ski]

It is a fair statement. You know, we just shot two films, one called Transformations and one about Generations, which is about purpose and future generations. And I thought I'd link, I would link, test them just to double check that my gut feeling was right, you know, and I don't, you know, we haven't done it. And what I learned from that I, I was reminded that all the theory works. So what I saw in this audience research was the shift in emotion relationship, all the ways in which creativity works in an emotional way, not in a logical way.

[C]

I, I, I think that and can just so everybody listening understands how you did that test. Can you share kind of just the basics for how you did that test?

[John Rudy Ski]

So yes. So link they expose need to be ad. It's, I mean it's fairly basic to I think I don't know exactly the numbers. We did a couple of hundred people and you're, you know, they're following it and they're getting responses to it and you know what you're seeing is off the back of this is shifts in relationship attitudes towards us, shifts in consideration to us. But the actual AD built warmth and emotion. You know what was that book many years ago, you know, the Art of Persuasion.

[C]

Yeah.

[John Rudy Ski]

I think creative is a subtle way of persuading people to prefer your brand. And I think whatever the agency line up in the future they will need and continue to be people who can come with very lateral thought.

[C]

Look, we are happy to post those when we, when they do the show as well.

[John Rudy Ski]

Right? Fantastic.

[C]

And then yo last question. Before we get to our last question. If I'm sitting there listening to this show thinking man, I want a career like John's. What, what advice would you give them and how to get to have a career like you've had.

[John Rudy Ski]

I was going to say start on a market store like I did but I don't think we need them anymore. It's all online now. I'm not sure if there's any stores that exist in a, in a marketing. I would say number one, I genuinely believe follow your passion. Um, and that's really important. That goes without saying. And then push as hard as you can to work for the most innovative company and people. You know, I count myself lucky. I got into Saatchi and Saatchi many years ago. It was the agency, what I would say was the agency of the planet. The sort of diaspora of people around the world speaks themselves. But I was lucky enough to work with incredible people that pushed me up. You know the old thing, if you play tennis against a better opponent, you go up. And I think for me it would be about landing a job where you're surrounded by brilliant people because they will, they will whatever. You're good, they'll lift you to that next standard.

[C]

Okay, I think great advice. Which brings us to our traditional last question. It's harder. You can pick one or Both. But you must pick at least one practical advice for our listeners we haven't talked about yet and. Or funniest story you can tell on the air. Go with one of those or both of those. It's your turn.

[John Rudy Ski]

I might deviate. I've just finished listening to quincy Jones's book 12 notes. Okay. I don't know if you've heard it. It's a beautiful audiobook. And there were two things that struck me. One is, I didn't know this. I'm not musical. There are only 12 notes in music. And you can therefore have infinite. And I kind of think in a career sense, there are so many choices you can have. Play the notes right. And I thought that was an interesting thing. And I think the other thing I was thinking, the relation to this podcast today is your career goes through journeys, right? Nothing is linear, nothing is that predictable. And Quincy Jones, I think he. The song Keep On Keeping on, and I think that's just something to think about for any one of your listeners is, you know, tomorrow, we don't know what's going to happen, but just keep on it and keep innovating and, and, and forge a path.

[C]

I like it, but I won't sing it because I was kicked out of choir.

[John Rudy Ski]

Me too.

[C]

At an early age. So, you know, but Keep on keeping. I think it's a great way to end the show. So, John, thank you for joining us and thanks everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. Look for more of our shows on Spotify, Apple, YouTube and the I Hear Everything network, which include why is B2B marketing so bad? And what to do about it. Parts one and two is your next best customer. And AI Bot. It's a bird. It's a plane. Holy shit, it's AI. Parts one and two and the Warby Parker case. I can see clearly now with my CLTV glasses on. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.