Josh Golden | Vulnerability & Personal Branding - Two 2-Edged Swords | CMO Confidential

Summary

Podcast Summary: CMO Confidential – Josh Golden | Vulnerability & Personal Branding - Two 2-Edged Swords

Release Date: February 4, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of CMO Confidential, host Mike Linton engages with Josh Golden, the Chief Marketing Officer of Quad and creator of the video series Eureka and Three Things. The discussion revolves around the intricate balance between vulnerability and personal branding within the C-suite, particularly for Chief Marketing Officers (CMOs). Drawing from their extensive experiences, Mike and Josh explore how these elements can both empower and challenge leaders in the marketing domain.

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1. The Dual Nature of Vulnerability in Leadership

Understanding Vulnerability: Mike Linton begins by delving into the importance of authenticity and vulnerability in leadership. He reflects on his personal growth from a command-and-control approach to embracing a more genuine and transparent leadership style.

Mike Linton [03:51]: "Being authentic and bringing who you are but also saying what you don't know is extraordinarily powerful and it creates an environment where everyone feels they're in the same foxhole and engaged."

Balancing Act: Josh Golden raises a critical question about the extent of vulnerability leaders should exhibit, emphasizing the potential risks if not managed properly.

Josh Golden [04:18]: "How much vulnerability do you show? Because a lot of people don't want to be in a crisis and have the leader go, 'I have no idea.'"

Challenges of Excessive Vulnerability: Mike acknowledges that while vulnerability fosters trust and engagement, overexposure can undermine a leader's authority.

Mike Linton [06:31]: "If you are overly wishy-washy, people won't want to follow you. It's a double-edged sword."

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2. Personal Stories of Vulnerability

Disclosure of Epilepsy: Mike shares his personal experience of revealing his epilepsy diagnosis on LinkedIn, highlighting the fears and unexpected positive outcomes of such transparency.

Mike Linton [06:46]: "When I put it out there, it had an enormous lift both personally and in empowering me to do more of that."

Coping with Loss: He further recounts the emotional impact of his father's passing and how expressing his grief openly strengthened his connection with his team.

Mike Linton [09:51]: "Being able to be vulnerable like that and express that sort of honesty was extraordinarily powerful."

Josh's Perspective: Adding to the conversation, Josh Golden shares his journey as a cancer survivor, reinforcing the notion that vulnerability, when appropriately managed, can enhance leadership.

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3. Managing Vulnerability in Business Decisions

The 24-Hour Rule: Mike introduces his "24-hour rule" to handle emotional responses in business scenarios, ensuring that decisions are rational rather than reactionary.

Mike Linton [10:11]: "If someone says something that pisses me off, I think to myself, 'This is not a business response.' I have this 24-hour rule where I don't react immediately unless it's essential."

Distilling Business from Personal Reactions: Josh emphasizes the importance of separating personal emotions from business decisions to maintain clarity and effectiveness.

Josh Golden [12:20]: "You distill the business from the personal reaction because a lot of times people can just try and piss you off in business."

Empowering Teams: Mike discusses his approach to empowering his team by providing actionable options even when he personally lacks a definitive answer.

Mike Linton [14:07]: "When someone asks, 'What should we do?' I come up with two or three answers quickly because I grew up in drama and improv."

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4. The Importance and Risks of Personal Branding

Defining Personal Brand: Mike articulates the significance of personal branding for marketers, portraying it as an extension of one's professional identity that transcends the company's brand.

Mike Linton [15:38]: "Personal brand is the 'you' part of the marketing role. It's your joie de vivre that transcends your company."

Potential Pitfalls: The conversation shifts to the dangers of an inflated personal brand that overshadows the company's identity, potentially leading to conflicts and even termination.

Mike Linton [17:53]: "The personal brand can be too big and become the brand, and then the company is not getting enough of the sunlight."

Strategies for Balance: Josh recommends establishing honest feedback mechanisms and exercising restraint in personal branding activities to maintain equilibrium.

Josh Golden [18:13]: "Find somebody in the company that will actually measure and tell me the truth."

Mike Linton [19:45]: "You need to make certain you are working very hard to reorient yourself and make sure the opportunity for visibility for the brand becomes paramount."

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5. Navigating Rebrands as a CMO

Rebranding Without Overhauling Core Identity: Mike shares his experience with Quad, emphasizing that a rebrand doesn't always necessitate a complete identity overhaul but can involve subtle enhancements that signal evolution.

Mike Linton [26:51]: "A rebrand has to be accepted by the brand organism. If the organism does not accept it, it will be rejected."

Consumer and Internal Acceptance: Josh underscores that a successful rebrand is measured not just by external launch activities but by internal buy-in and consumer acceptance.

Josh Golden [28:28]: "The rebrand isn't done until the consumer accepts it and the company accepts it."

Case Study – Jaguar: They discuss Jaguar's recent rebrand, analyzing its reception and the importance of aligning rebranding efforts with longstanding brand values.

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6. Practical Advice – Emphasizing Gratitude

The Role of Gratitude in Leadership: In the episode's closing segment, Mike highlights the essential role of gratitude in fostering a positive organizational culture and effective leadership.

Mike Linton [31:10]: "Having and displaying gratitude is important because we are all in service to the brands we work for and the teams we work with."

Hiring Practices: He shares his stringent hiring criteria, where the absence of a simple thank-you note can disqualify a candidate, illustrating his commitment to a culture of appreciation.

Mike Linton [30:48]: "I literally do not hire people if they don't send a follow-up note. If someone does not send me a note to thank me for my time, it's a hard no."

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Conclusion

This episode of CMO Confidential offers a profound exploration of the delicate balance CMOs must maintain between showing vulnerability and cultivating a personal brand. Through candid discussions and personal anecdotes, Mike Linton and Josh Golden provide valuable insights into effective leadership strategies, rebranding tactics, and the foundational role of gratitude in building a cohesive and motivated team. Listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of how to navigate the complexities of high-level marketing roles while fostering authentic and resilient leadership.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. On Authenticity:

   "Being authentic and bringing who you are but also saying what you don't know is extraordinarily powerful."
   – Mike Linton [03:51]

2. On Vulnerability Limits:

   "How much vulnerability do you show? Because a lot of people don't want to be in a crisis and have the leader go, 'I have no idea.'"
   – Josh Golden [04:18]

3. On Leadership Balance:

   "If you are overly wishy-washy, people won't want to follow you."
   – Mike Linton [06:31]

4. On Personal Struggles:

   "Being able to be vulnerable like that and express that sort of honesty was extraordinarily powerful."
   – Mike Linton [09:51]

5. On Emotional Responses:

   "You distill the business from the personal reaction because a lot of times people can just try and piss you off in business."
   – Josh Golden [12:20]

6. On Personal Branding:

   "Personal brand is the 'you' part of the marketing role. It's your joie de vivre that transcends your company."
   – Mike Linton [15:38]

7. On Rebranding Success:

   "A rebrand has to be accepted by the brand organism. If the organism does not accept it, it will be rejected."
   – Mike Linton [26:51]

8. On Gratitude:

   "Having and displaying gratitude is important because we are all in service to the brands we work for and the teams we work with."
   – Mike Linton [31:10]

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Key Takeaways

• Vulnerability Enhances Trust: Authenticity and vulnerability can strengthen team bonds but must be balanced to maintain leadership effectiveness.

• Personal Branding is Crucial but Covert: Building a personal brand is essential for career growth, yet it should be managed to ensure it complements rather than overshadows the company's brand.

• Strategic Rebranding Requires Alignment: Successful rebrands depend on both internal and external acceptance, aligning with the company's core values and long-term vision.

• Gratitude Fosters Positive Culture: Demonstrating gratitude is fundamental in leadership, influencing team morale and organizational culture positively.

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This episode serves as a valuable resource for current and aspiring CMOs, offering practical strategies and cautionary insights into the complex dynamics of leadership, personal branding, and organizational growth.

Transcript

[Mike Lind]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential, the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Lind.

[Josh Golden]

Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them. The Chief Marketing Officer, Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, ebay, farmers insurance and ancestry.com now this show is brought to you by Props, our title sponsor. Props is a performance driven content platform which combines the attraction of creator content with the results of paid media. Instead of impressions and posts, Props takes responsibility for leads and customers. Check them out at Props Co. I'm here today with my guest, Josh Golden. Today's topic, vulnerability and personal branding in the C suite. Two Two edged swords Now, Josh is the CMO of Quad, a marketing experience company and the creator of Eureka and three Things which are video series where he gets to talk to amazing people about the spark of inspiration. Previously he was the president and publisher of Ad Age and the CMO of Story Worldwide. So we are going to sign him an expert rating on storytelling. Welcome, John.

[Mike Lind]

Thank you so much, Mike. My goodness. I listened to this podcast and watched the video series. I feel a little. I'm a little starstruck. I'm so excited to do this and I hope that I can deliver both sides of the double edged sword for you today.

[Josh Golden]

Four total sword cut.

[Mike Lind]

Right, Sorry. This is like a game of, like a Game of Thrones episode. It's gonna get blood.

[Josh Golden]

All right, so with a little background, marketers are usually responsible for telling their company story. But today we're going to use Josh to focus in on the marketer story both inside and outside the company. And we'll start with inside the company. Yeah, there's a lot of discussion about bringing your whole self to work and showing your human side. And I want to ask, does that really help a leader? And how do people measure things like this on a regular basis?

[Mike Lind]

Yeah, I mean, so I'm a big believer in both authenticity and vulnerability. Only because, like, to be honest, I'VE tried other things and they didn't necessarily work. In my early days of my of leadership in my 30s, I was like try, I tried command and control. I was like do it this way, it's better, it doesn't work as well. I, I, I, I learned and I think being authentic and bringing your, you know, like who you are but also saying what you don't know is extraordinarily powerful and it creates a kind of in my mind everyone's in the same foxhole and, and that environment where you're together and, and, and being honest and vulnerable creates an opportunity for real engagement. I will tell you that humility and authenticity is sometimes as we just, we're going to be discussing this double edged sword, it's not always received well.

[Josh Golden]

Yeah. And let's talk about vulnerability because vulnerabilities, I think everyone agrees you gotta be your authentic self because if you're fake it takes a lot of energy. But the vulnerability thing is how much vulnerability do you show? Because a lot of people don't want to be in a crisis and have the leader go, I have no idea.

[Mike Lind]

I have no idea. What should we do?

[Josh Golden]

I don't know. I haven't even thought that could happen. So let's talk about the degrees of vulnerability and then if you could share some personal examples.

[Mike Lind]

Yes.

[Josh Golden]

Because let's not say you should just share everything as leader, like you can't say I'm really, I really hate what's going on with the company. I think we're going down the drain. What, what, what can you, let's talk about the degrees of vulnerability.

[Mike Lind]

Yeah. So I think that I, I, I, I think for all marketers, we all know this, you have to read the room.

[Josh Golden]

Right?

[Mike Lind]

What's right? What, what's the, what's the right thing we need to deliver? When you're talking to the troops and many times it's about looking to figure out what is that are trying to achieve. And I think that Joel, for example, my boss who is the CEO of, of Quad is a fabulous cultural leader. He really does understand what it's like to read that room and knowing how open he needs to be at times is exactly the right thing. You need like I need more of a this than that. And I think those moments actually him leading that way empowered me to feel like well I'm, I'm going to do the same type of leadership style because that's, that's what the company culture feels like. Quad is a midwestern culture always focused on doing the right thing. For the marketer and, and, you know, knowing that the marketer's job is complex. 77% of the marketers, like, are saying, like, oh, my God, my job is just getting more and more difficult. Well, being vulnerable as a marketer when you're feeling that pressure is challenging. So the question you asked is, you know, how do you know what right level of vulnerability to be?

[Josh Golden]

Right.

[Mike Lind]

I think it really does matter that, you know, we're, we're. You're showing that, that you're always respectful of the culture because as Peter Drucker said, culture eats strategy for breakfast. So having people who like to be together and work together and have that authenticity and vulnerability with each other makes it better because you feel like, oh, we're all of the same team and it feels good. At the same time, if you are overly wishy washy, people won't want to follow you. They won't feel that sense of guys. It's warped to that way.

[Josh Golden]

Right?

[Mike Lind]

Any questions?

[Josh Golden]

Yeah. And some of the things about vulnerability is once you say you totally have no idea about something and are completely vulnerable, that can actually follow you around a lot. So give us some personal examples.

[Mike Lind]

Yeah, of course, of course.

[Josh Golden]

Vulnerability stories, these are tough.

[Mike Lind]

But I'm gonna do it today, Mike, because I want to go there. So I was like, you know, like, I, you know, I. So I, I have epilepsy. And I came out about this about, I guess it was two and a half. Never talked about it ever, to anyone, ever. Because you don't. Or at least that's what they said in the 80s. And they were like, don't tell anybody. They'll treat you differently. It was super, super hard. So I, you know, talked to my comms team because I was like, I was 50, 50 at the time. And I was like, I just want to say to young people that it's okay. It's okay to have something that makes you imperfect. And surprisingly enough, Mike, I was not fully prepared for this, but, like, it was received when I, I put it out on LinkedIn, like my, my, my platform that everyone, like, listens to me on. Like, I am out there and I have 30, 000 people that are watching me and I'm like, this is a high risk moment for me. And I was not totally sure how it was gonna land, to be honest with you. I absolutely was convinced that someone was gonna be like, oh, oh, I feel bad, or, oh, I, oh, that's, oh, you know, like that kind of bullshit, you know, pity feeling. I was like, not. I was not going to do it for that reason, for sure. And then I was, When I put it out there, I was bold enough to let, you know, let my comms team help me kind of tune it. So it was like, right. And then it had this enormous lift both personally for me, because I was like, oh, my God, this is so scary for me to do. But then the feedback was wonderful. And the thought of, like, oh, brave of you to say this and how much you're helping the young people that are struggling with this, you know that. And it's not public and there's a stigma around it, and it allowed me to, to say something out loud that was extraordinarily scary, but it empowered me to, to. To do more of that. And I have one more example. My father died and he was my, you know, my. In 2019. So it's a while back, but not long enough, long enough ago because I still feel the pain super sharp. And I remember someone came in a different situation and asked me in a moment because I came back to work way too fast because I needed work, give me some comfort. And I was at adage at the time, and they said to me, just innocuous question, like the, the how you doing? And it just, just, it just glanced off me sort of in a moment of like I was reading an email and I was like, I'm a mess. You know, I'm an absolute mess. And being able to be vulnerable like that and, and express that sort of honesty was extraordinarily powerful. And I would say to you that the, the power of vulnerability isn't in weakness. It actually isn't. It gives a strength that is, is seemingly counterintuitive. But being vulnerable and saying, I'm not actually okay right now is extraordinarily powerful. Talking about.

[Josh Golden]

I agree with that. I had a similar experience as a, As a cancer survivor. Can I flip this over, though, to the business side?

[Mike Lind]

Yeah, please.

[Josh Golden]

Where vulnerability of not knowing what you're supposed to do as leader. Where do people cross the line on that one?

[Mike Lind]

Yeah, I mean, it's easy to do it if you. I, I feel.

[Josh Golden]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear in this question because all these, these personal things are kind of facts and they're out there and eventually some of them discoverable, like, you know, when I had cancer, couldn't really hide it. But, but the business side, you can, you can hide a lot of it. You know, how do you give our viewers some guardrails on the vulnerability on the business side?

[Mike Lind]

Yeah. So I Have a hard and fast rule on vulnerability, which could be contro. But call it a hot take. You have to be self aware about how you're feeling in a moment. I have a. I have a thing that I. That I have, I'm passionate about called the 24 hour rule. If someone says something to me that. That pisses me off, like, really makes me actually mad, I think to myself, this is not a business response. I'm having an emotional response to something that they said that it's sort of in my history. I have this great story that, that I, My. My father told that told me when I was older. But my mother went downstairs to make a. To make a sandwich and it was like a cheese on a piece of bread and she was melting it. And then my father walked down and then he saw this in the toaster. And then he ate the monster cheese that was being toasted. And then for the whole day they argued about the muenster cheese. The monster cheese sandwich that you stole. Now was. Were my parents arguing about the cheese sandwich? No, they were arguing about my. The failing business that was happening. But they needed monster cheese to argue they needed that medium. I would say in business it's so very easy to argue about the monster cheese and not actually focus on the thing that's first frustrating or upsetting. And I say that is a hard and fast rule. That 24 hour rule is really important to follow because it allows you to say this is upsetting me in a way that is putting a 10 on a 2. It's a. I'm responding. Responding with a 10, but it's actually a 2. And I think that we really all need to be like, recognize vulnerability is good, but it's not great if you're having an emotional response to something that's. You really shouldn't need to.

[Josh Golden]

I think this is a super important thing, which is the. And I like the 24 hour rule. I have that also, which is you distill the business from the personal reaction. Because a lot of times people can just try and piss you off in business anyways.

[Mike Lind]

Yeah.

[Josh Golden]

How about when your team is saying, hey, Josh, we need a plan here. What are. What is your thinking? And you don't have one.

[Mike Lind]

See, I. I want to hear the.

[Josh Golden]

Monster cheese W into this too, because we're gonna have old monster.

[Mike Lind]

I will tell you that if my. I have surrounded myself with extraordinarily powerful people and they all have great thoughts and I put them in that position so that they can be the executive leaders that they are at the company and in my past life, same kind of people. I've always surround myself with people who are way smarter at their thing than I am at their thing. Although I have thoughts and opinions, I tend to whisper them on the side. I will tell you that when someone asks me, we're not sure what we were doing, what should we do? I will come up with two or three answers very quickly. Because I grew up in the world of drama and improv, for me is like, I got thoughts like this, baby, so no problem. But I will tell you that I tend to ask them, if, in fact, this were your business, what would you do? Like, what would you do? Forget all the emotions, forget all the people, Forget everything else. But I want to know, what would you do right now to solve this particular problem? And it would be like, I would get rid of Suzy and hire Johnny. I would. Then let's. That's at least an answer. And then at least starts this sort of evolution of an idea. Cause if we're really there with zero and they're coming to me with nothing, then I would say that you haven't done your job to prep the situation. Like, here's the four things that we could do. What do you think we should execute?

[Josh Golden]

There's a. And. And I would say, if I distill this, there's a difference between being in charge and knowing the answer. And what I hear you saying is, you can still be leader if you don't know the answer, but you have to be graceful about getting the answer and getting the team involved. It's. Is that fair?

[Mike Lind]

Yeah, I think that I'm always. It's funny, as I've gotten more and more senior in my life and my roles, I get to do less and less marketing, which is wild. And so when there's a chance to actually do marketing things, I'm like, I love that I'm getting involved in this sort of level of complexity, whether it's a comms thing or a campaign idea. And it's. I would say, zero times out of a million, my team has come to me and says, we don't know how to solve this. They all know how to solve it. They just are.

[Josh Golden]

They all have an opinion.

[Mike Lind]

Have an opinion for sure. But it's more about me providing. Well, how do I structure what it is that we know the answer needs to be and get it through what is a delicate way to maneuver through, you know, the world of. Of corporate America? And I. And I. That is much more of my job than it is Marketing, look, we call.

[Josh Golden]

90% chief, 10% marketing. And I want to, I want to flip to the personal brand.

[Mike Lind]

Yes.

[Josh Golden]

Because we've talked about vulnerability. Let's talk about personal brand. What is it and why is it important? And then we'll talk about how you build it.

[Mike Lind]

Yeah. So personal brand for me is a, it's. I'm a big, I'm a big believer in, in the personal brand because the marketer has. So the, what a personal brand is is basically the, the you part of, of the marketing role. It's the thing that brings. It's your joie de vivre.

[Josh Golden]

It's the thing and it transcends, it transcends your company where you, you're actually a name.

[Mike Lind]

Yes.

[Josh Golden]

Within the company, but also outside the company. You're known.

[Mike Lind]

I'm a known entity. So they, they want to bring in a Josh Golden. Like I am the person that helps a company go from, from where it's been to where they want it to go. They want to effectively modernize. I did it at Ad Age, when we went from advertising age to Ad Age. I did it, you know, when I was at NBC when we didn't have a digital function and we stood up the digital function, NBC Universal, all the times that we brought in to be like, hey, can you do the thing where it gets us from where we are to where we need to be? That's the Josh golden kind of like. And, and so that's my personal brand. I'm the, I'm that guy that has both enthusiasm, I believe.

[Josh Golden]

I wish you would, I wish you would be a little more enthusiastic on this.

[Mike Lind]

I'm going to show it today on the podcast, but I really trying to rein it in and I think personal brand is extraordinarily important because the marketer's job as we discussed at Seth Batlin came up earlier is, is we're always in this state of evolution. The marketer is like are do they get to stay and continue doing their job or do they have to go to some. There's a new opportunity to do that same thing somewhere else. So my opinion is the personal brand can be a double edged sword, which is where we're gonna get to. You need the personal brand because they need to know like, well what can a Josh golden like object do at this brand? So that's why I got the job at Quad because they're like, hey, we've been in this wonderful work in manufacturing. Can you get us into, you know, more of the marketing services? Sure, I can do that. I'm gonna help you. Here's the problem and the risk. Many times, great and wonderful marketers. Personal brand in the teeter totter is too big and it becomes the brand. And then the company was like, wait, wait, wait. We, we are not getting enough of the sunlight. And so the personal brand part of that portion becomes so much that it overshadows the brand. And then you get fired, which is back.

[Josh Golden]

And how do you, how do you gauge that? Because, well, you know, you can get a lot of PR if you have a good personal brand. You can be recruited by a lot of companies. Totally. A lot of people inside your company can think, I hate that guy, hate that guy because he's really out there building his personal brand instead of working for us.

[Mike Lind]

Right.

[Josh Golden]

You gauge this. How do you measure it? How do you feel it?

[Mike Lind]

Read the room, Mike. My opinion is, and I'm endlessly doing this, listening. You have to endlessly listen to what does the brand need? What does the brand need right now? And if you are pushing your personal story more than you're pushing the brand story, then that's the mistake number one. Mistake number two is I have wonderful people that work with me and work for me. If you're feeling that it's more about you than it is about the people that work for you and with you, then, then, then you are pushing your things too much. So two things. You have the opportunity to put your personal brand into service of the brand. Like, I'm here as a representative of quad. I'm not here as representing Josh Golden. I'm talking. I'd love if I could make the rest of this all about quad. I totally would. I recognize you wanted to talk about.

[Josh Golden]

It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen, Josh.

[Mike Lind]

I know, I know. But I'm telling you, like, my inclination is to endlessly bring up quad because I, I love this brand. I'm passionate about this brand. And I, I am always balancing how much me, how much quad. And if you as a, as a brand advocate are not thinking how much am I going to be balancing things that make me famous and things that make my brand famous and always, always erring on the side of I want to make my brand famous more than me, that'll always help you and keep you in a good stead with people that are inside your company saying, yeah, yeah, he talked about himself a little bit, but most of it was about the growth of Quad.

[Josh Golden]

Well, and I think that's, that's also the. Make sure you get famous. Because you are building your brand versus.

[Mike Lind]

Yes, do your job.

[Josh Golden]

Well, two rules I have, I have had, which is I try and find somebody, at least one or two people in the company that will actually measure. Tell me, tell me the truth. And the second thing is when in doubt, don't do the personal brand stuff. If you think it's too edgy or you think you're out on that edge, just don't do it. Because once you get to a place where the company thinks, gosh, it's all about Josh and it's not about quad, then, I mean you, you get fired or people start undermining you. But tell us what happens when, when people get too big, their personal brand gets too big and then. Yeah, cover from it.

[Mike Lind]

Yeah. I will tell you that when you hear the marketer say, I did this and I did that and I did this and I did that, those people are in danger, Rob danger. Will Robinson Mode. You know, it's really bad because you feel for that person as you're watching them, you know, on stage or doing their thing. And like you did, I mean, I know you did that work, but you didn't really do it. So I would say that the, the, the, if you're, if you're, if your personal brand is bigger than the company brand and you feel that teeter totter is misaligned, you, you have to make certain that you are, are working very, very hard to, to reorient yourself and, and make certain that, that the opportunity for visibility for the brand becomes tantamount. That you soften all of your visible exposure and, and go and push heavy into that because it's, you've misweighted it. You will it. It, you can still fix it. I think you can still fix it. But the double edged sword of it is you need to make certain you don't diminish yourself so much that you lose your power. But you need to push endlessly on the opportunity to make the brand at least more famous than you. But, but in true deference to marketers out there, we all have to use our own brand and our, the brand that we work for and we have to balance it. But it is a balancing act. I'm not going to say it's easy.

[Josh Golden]

So I hear you saying you're in a movie, but the main actor is always the company you work for. You are always in a supporting role.

[Mike Lind]

Yes.

[Josh Golden]

The other thing that complicates that though, at least from my perspective, is a lot of marketers get to do really cool things a bunch of people go to sporting events or con or whatever and you're already out there usually doing pretty cool things. If you're self aggrandizing from that space, it just can put a target on you. How do people manage that when they get to do cool things or they get a lot of pressure other than make it supporting actor.

[Mike Lind]

Yeah. The best thing to do is not to go and send the people that you. That when you say the word we, you mean these people. You, you push out those people and say you are ready for the. And you have been ready for prime time for a long time. And I'm going to actually sit this one out. And I believe that personal people who have a great personal brand that you don't need, you don't need to be out every time at Cannes. Can is awesome and sweaty and although not this year, you know, it's important to make certain that you're giving other people the ability to take the seat on the stage that you probably could do, but they might do it better. And I think that's really important to think about that. And, and that the, the people that if you're listening well enough, which is a. I feel so passionately about personal people who have a good, strong personal brand are listening like you do to others and saying, hey, maybe this is. Maybe I need to pivot how we're doing this and listening to individuals and how they operate. Making certain that you're taking advantage of pushing other people forward and also having the wherewithal to know and people that you trust to tell you like, how's this going? Is this landing?

[Josh Golden]

Because a lot of once you get in the red zone, it's way harder to get out. I.

[Mike Lind]

Way harder way.

[Josh Golden]

I say a couple things. One, we've referenced two TV shows from way back which is lost in space and the Munsters so.

[Mike Lind]

Lives. Gen Z lives.

[Josh Golden]

Yes, there you go.

[Mike Lind]

Sorry.

[Josh Golden]

Gen X. Yeah. Some. Some Gen I. I want to go to another topic that you're passionate about, which is rebrands. And let's talk about CMOs and rebrands because you've been in a lot of rebrands and let's talk about how you think about that, especially if you're a name or a famous cmo.

[Mike Lind]

Yeah. I mean it's the, it's the standard move, right. You kind of. You come in the job and you're like, the first thing I'm going to do is fire the agency and rebrand the. Rebrand the company. Because that's what a marketer does. Says supposed to do.

[Josh Golden]

Just so you know, before we go on, I've never fired the agency when I've come in, ever. I think that's a bad sign, but go ahead.

[Mike Lind]

I, I think that unfortunately it is a little bit of the, of the move. I don't know. I'm trying to think all my, I don't think I've ever done that standard move. But I will tell you, when I came into Quad, you know, I. Joel Quad Rachi, you know, it's not like I could change the name of, of the company because it's connected to their last name. So that wasn't going to happen. But what we had was a very interesting conversation about the value of signaling to the marketplace a change because that's what my job was to help that happen. So what we worked on through some good and passionate conversations were figuring out, well, what is, what is it that we need to make happen? And what we, what we arrived at was a re, a relaunching of a design system that was effectively based on the original logo, but it allowed us to signal the marketplace and like have these big ads in Cannes and take over the airport in Nice. That was a Wisconsin company. You know, taking over the airport was nuts. But like was a great moment for the brand and a wonderful moment to signal the shift that Quad has been, you know, you know, evolving to. So I would argue that the signature moment for a brand doesn't necessarily have to be a rebrand, but it, it, it, but it can. Most marketers look for some sort of splashy moment to happen when they first start their job. And I would argue that you really need to as a, as a personal brand advocate figure out where your, the chess pieces are before you jump in into a specific tactic. And, and I have found that many times, you know, you might, you know, decide to move out your rook first and then or your night first and that becomes an opportunity to the way the temperature of and as per se marketplace.

[Josh Golden]

Hey, let's talk about rebrands because one of the things every, A lot of companies want a rebrand. How do you know when the brand is actually rebranded for real? Like what other question?

[Mike Lind]

Hot take. So we just saw Jaguar rebrand. And I remember back in the, in the, I think it's late 90s, the Bacana rebranded and they unrebranded. You know, so it is, it is certainly it's funny enough, I would say a rebrand has to be accepted by the brand organism. Marketing can do a lot of things to move the, you know, the the. The assets around, but if the organism of the company does not accept it, it will be rejected. So you have to do a lot of what I would argue is internal listening and understanding and making certain that you don't mess with the thing that is religion to the brand. For example, for quad, our quad bug, the logo that represents entirety of our company is this. This is the bug. You can't mess with the bug. It's. It's 53 years old. It is the thing that's defined the brand for 53 years. So religion, you cannot mess with it, but you use it as an asset to help the brand evolve. My belief is that it is a wonderful tool, but it is not the only tool in the market or tool shed. They need to open their eyes and look at other opportunities that might exist for them to have to, to recognize the goals of what they're trying to achieve with the partnership.

[Josh Golden]

I will add one thing to that. I think a bunch of people think the rebrand is done when the effort hits the marketplace. But what I hear you saying, and I support it is the rebrand isn't done until the consumer accepts it and the company accepts it.

[Mike Lind]

Exactly. And long process and it allows you to have that.

[Josh Golden]

You can't confuse the activity with the outcome. The outcome is the marketplace and how the company actually views itself. Fair.

[Mike Lind]

And also. Yes. And also the board, everyone in the. In the whole ecosystem has to see the benefit of what something like that will bring. It is not the. Wow, check out our new logo. It's so hot. That is a. It's, it's it. I doubt any marketer would ever say that that is the thing. That's their signature thing. It's never going to be that. It's. Well, why did you do that? Why did Jaguar do this? There was a big reason why. It's because the company had become a little invisible, so they wanted to become visible. I would argue while whether or not you like the new branding or not, it doesn't matter because it's a conversation now and it's become now even talked about on this podcast. Right. So this work that marketers need to do is just a piece. It's a sliver of it as the actual.

[Josh Golden]

I think Jaguar is an excellent example of fine, you did a step right. One thing we will see how the marketplace company actually reacts to that. But you have to. You have a long way to go before you've. You've rebranded Jaguar and different opinions.

[Mike Lind]

We all know that brand has extraordinary longevity. Sorry for interrupting. Extraordinary longevity. With wonderful brand that we all recognize as an actual animal in the jungle. And, and now we've, it's changed to type treatment. So that's an interesting first step. Let's see, see what you do with it.

[Josh Golden]

Let's see what really happens. Yeah, let's see what happens to the old users and the new users. Yes, I mean it's an interesting story. So we are, we are getting towards the, the end of the show. We have our traditional last question.

[Mike Lind]

Oh, okay, I'm ready.

[Josh Golden]

All right. It's two parter. You can take one or both but you must take at least one and it's funniest story you can tell on the air and, or tell practical advice we haven't discussed yet. You can take one or both.

[Mike Lind]

I gotta tell you I, I would. No, I can't tell it. I, I've in my latter years Mike, I've learned that a fil. A filter is, is important to have but I have some weight filters on cmo.

[Josh Golden]

Just let it rip, John.

[Mike Lind]

Let me, let me, let me switch to practical advice. I saw my friend Charlie Fiorlis just post something recently on, on his LinkedIn and it. And it was about, you know, 10 things he wished he knew before he started his job in marketing and advertising. And I will tell you that I talk to a lot of young people and I teach classes at NYU and Columbia and I have this strong opinion about gratitude. And unfortunately the younger folks don't really ascribe to this philosophy. And I think it's really important to have it said when someone does something for you at whatever level they happen to be, whether they're a boss or a huge Uber person or just someone down the street being have showing and, and displaying gratitude, whether it's in a thank you note or a deep appreciation or something that you do for them is extraordinarily important. And I will tell you that I am so passionate about this that I literally do not hire people if they don't send a follow up note. I know contra but like if someone does not send me a note to thank me for my time and I'm listen, I meet with everybody that comes into the quad organization on the marketing side because I give a shit about the culture of the people that join and if they do not have the wherewithal to say hey Josh, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciated this part of the conversation and what you said about where we're going and what the company's doing, blah blah, blah, blah blah. Thank you Harold. And that note doesn't come to me. I am a hard no on hiring them because they don't understand the subtlety of what marketing delivers, which is I to show deep appreciation and understanding for my audience and then deliver on that. So a practical advice which I think is important is having and displaying gratitude because we are all in service to the brands that we work for and the teams that we work with and if you are not showing gratitude it is. It's a mistake and people will root you out.

[Josh Golden]

And this goes back to how we open the show which is be an authentic, genuine leader and genuine appreciation matters. So. So thank you Josh. Thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. And special thanks to Props co, our sponsor. Look for more of our shows on the I Hear Everything network, Spotify, Apple and YouTube which include marketing the battle between believers and non believers parts 1, 2 and 3. The rise and fall of peloton as seen through the eyes of customer Lifetime value and why the short shelf life of cmos. Hey all you market marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.