Kip Knight | Putting the Chief in CMO - Being Good at Marketing Isn't Enough | CMO Confidential

Summary

CMO Confidential Episode Summary
Title: Kip Knight | Putting the Chief in CMO - Being Good at Marketing Isn't Enough
Host: Mike Linton
Guest: Kip Knight
Release Date: January 21, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of CMO Confidential, host Mike Linton welcomes Kip Knight, a seasoned marketing executive and founder of CMO Coaches. Together, they delve deep into the multifaceted role of a Chief Marketing Officer (CMO), emphasizing that excellence in marketing alone is insufficient. The discussion centers around the broader responsibilities of a CMO, embodying the "Chief" aspect of the role, and offers valuable strategies for current and aspiring CMOs to excel in today’s dynamic business environment.

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The Dual Role of CMO: Chief and Marketing

Kip Knight kicks off the conversation by challenging the conventional view that a CMO’s primary focus is solely on marketing. He introduces a compelling metaphor to illustrate the dual nature of the role:

“Imagine a bullseye, like an archery bullseye, that's got three circles inside each other and the very center of the marketing chief.”
— Kip Knight [03:04]

Kip emphasizes that while marketing is at the core, the CMO must also embody leadership and strategic alignment within the executive team. This dual role requires balancing tactical marketing execution with high-level strategic decision-making.

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The Bullseye Analogy: Three Layers of CMO Responsibilities

Kip elaborates on his bullseye model, breaking down the CMO’s responsibilities into three concentric circles:

1. Marketing Competence (Center Circle):
   The foundation of a CMO’s role is strong marketing expertise. Kip likens a CMO to a symphony conductor who doesn’t need to master every instrument but must understand what good looks like across all marketing functions.

   “You don't necessarily need to know how to play every single instrument in the orchestra, but you need to know what good looks like.”
   — Kip Knight [05:13]

2. First Team Alignment (Middle Circle):
   Beyond marketing, the CMO must cultivate strong relationships with the executive team, particularly the CEO and CFO. This alignment ensures that marketing strategies are in sync with overall business objectives.

   “If you're not totally aligned with your first team and you're willing to back whatever direction they want to go, then you're probably going to fail.”
   — Kip Knight [12:51]

3. Company Ambassador (Outer Circle):
   The outer layer involves representing the company externally, shaping its public image, and integrating marketing messages across all facets of the organization.

   Kip underscores the importance of storytelling in this role:

   “The role of marketing primarily is to listen and respond to the voice of the customer… explain, this is what the customer is thinking and feeling and doing and reacting to relative to competition.”
   — Kip Knight [17:14]

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Importance of Alignment with the Executive Team

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the necessity for CMOs to align closely with their executive counterparts. Kip identifies misalignment with the CEO and CFO as a common pitfall:

“The first and the biggest one is a lack of alignment with the CEO and the CFO in terms of what marketing is going to deliver.”
— Kip Knight [09:34]

He points out that many marketers fail to translate marketing efforts into financial outcomes, leading to disconnects with non-marketing executives who may lack a marketing background. Kip advises CMOs to:

• Understand Financials: Develop a strong grasp of the company’s financial metrics to demonstrate how marketing initiatives drive revenue and profitability.
• Communicate Effectively: Translate marketing jargon into language that resonates with financial and executive stakeholders.

Mike Linton concurs, adding that CMOs should act as growth engines for the company:

“Marketing is a means to an end for the company score. And I think a lot of marketers can get hung up on how well they're doing and maybe not translating that to the first team outcomes.”
— Mike Linton [14:38]

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Storytelling and Company Culture

Kip and Mike discuss the pivotal role of storytelling in fostering a cohesive company culture. Kip emphasizes that effective storytelling helps bridge the gap between marketing and other departments:

“We should be looking for any and all opportunities to go tell the story of the company to the rest of the world.”
— Kip Knight [19:05]

Key takeaways include:

• Engage the Entire Organization: Encourage all employees to view themselves as part of the marketing ecosystem, enhancing collaboration and unified efforts.
• Public Relations Integration: Proactively manage the company’s public image by aligning PR and lobbying efforts with overarching marketing messages.

Mike adds that earned media can significantly impact business results when integrated seamlessly with the company's growth strategies.

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Developing Future CMOs

The conversation shifts to cultivating the next generation of CMOs. Kip advocates for continuous learning and self-assessment:

“As a young marketer, if somebody came up to you and said, 'I'd love to get 15 minutes of your time to learn. How can I get prepared to be a great CMO?'”
— Kip Knight [20:55]

Strategies discussed include:

• Seek Mentorship: Engage with experienced CMOs to gain insights and guidance.
• Identify Strengths and Weaknesses: Conduct personal assessments to understand areas for improvement.
• Hands-On Experience: Take on projects outside one’s comfort zone to develop a well-rounded skill set.

Mike reinforces the importance of curiosity and continuous development:

“The tools, the math, the data, the integration, everything else is evolving at speed… your goal is to stay at the front end of technology.”
— Mike Linton [26:39]

Kip also highlights the significance of fostering a team that embodies the qualities of being hungry, humble, and smart, drawing inspiration from Pat Linzioni’s teachings.

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Kip shares a poignant story underscoring the value of enjoying the professional journey:

“Enjoy the journey. No matter if you're a brand assistant or you're the CEO or anything in between… step back periodically and really relish what you're enjoying about the job.”
— Kip Knight [27:55]

Key Takeaways:

1. Embrace the Dual Role: CMOs must balance deep marketing expertise with strategic leadership and alignment within the executive team.
2. Foster Alignment: Strong relationships with the CEO, CFO, and other executives are crucial for translating marketing efforts into business success.
3. Master Storytelling: Effectively communicate the value of marketing to the entire organization to build a unified company culture.
4. Continuous Development: Aspiring CMOs should seek mentorship, continuously learn, and develop a broad skill set to navigate the evolving marketing landscape.
5. Enjoy the Journey: Recognize and appreciate the day-to-day experiences and growth opportunities inherent in the CMO role.

Mike Linton concludes by encouraging listeners to apply these insights to elevate their marketing leadership and drive their organizations towards sustained success.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kip Knight [03:04]: “Imagine a bullseye, like an archery bullseye, that's got three circles inside each other and the very center of the marketing chief.”
• Kip Knight [05:13]: “You don't necessarily need to know how to play every single instrument in the orchestra, but you need to know what good looks like.”
• Kip Knight [09:34]: “The first and the biggest one is a lack of alignment with the CEO and the CFO in terms of what marketing is going to deliver.”
• Kip Knight [17:14]: “The role of marketing primarily is to listen and respond to the voice of the customer… explain, this is what the customer is thinking and feeling and doing and reacting to relative to competition.”
• Kip Knight [27:55]: “Enjoy the journey. No matter if you're a brand assistant or you're the CEO or anything in between… step back periodically and really relish what you're enjoying about the job.”

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This episode serves as an invaluable resource for marketing professionals aiming to ascend to the CMO role, providing actionable strategies and profound insights into the multifaceted responsibilities that extend beyond traditional marketing expertise.

Transcript

[Mike Linton]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential, the podcast that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and choices that go with being the Head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.

Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer, Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, ebay, Farmers Insurance and ancestry dot com. Now this show is brought to you by Props, our title sponsor. Props is a performance driven content platform that combines the attraction of creator content with the results of paid media. Instead of a focus on impressions and posts, Props takes responsibility for leads and customers. Check them out at Props Co. I'm here today with my guest, Kip Knight. Today's topic, putting the chief in cmo. Being good at marketing just isn't enough. Now, Kip is the founder of CMO Coaches, which provides executive coaching to current and aspiring CMOs. Previously, he was a CMO of Taco Bell, the president of H and R Block US Retail, and the creator of CMO Bootcamp, which trains folks on becoming a cmo. Full disclosure, Kip and I work together at P and G and I've been a boot camp instructor. Kip is also a CMO Confidential og as he was a guest twice in the early days of our show. It's great to have him back. Welcome, Kip.

[Kip Knight]

Thanks, Mike. Great to be here. I was wondering, you know, in snl, if you were here five times, you get a jacket, you got a Semo Confidential jacket that you're preparing for me or we're gonna.

[Mike Linton]

We're gonna have to think about it. But probably not. Though I am wearing your LSU shirt.

[Kip Knight]

It looks very good. Go Tigers. Well done there.

[Mike Linton]

You're going purple too, as well, which is the color of the show. So let's get on with the show. We want to talk about LSU football, even though it's way past the season. Probably a season you don't need to remember. I'll set the stage by seeing the saying. One of our earlier guests said the CMO job is 90% chief and 10% marketing. But many companies, and pretty much almost all business schools spend almost all their time training people to be strong marketers. Kip, talk to us about your perspective on this chief and marketing split.

[Kip Knight]

Mike, I want to paint a visual in your head, and I'll be referring to this for the rest of the conversation. So imagine a bullseye, like an archery bullseye, that's got three circles inside each other and the very center of the marketing chief. And we'll start with that one. But then I'd like to layer on top in the middle circle, what I'll call the first team chief. I'll explain that in a minute. And then finally, just so everybody else.

[Mike Linton]

When you say first team, you mean the first team of the company, like the executive team. Right, first team.

[Kip Knight]

The executive team of the company. And I'll talk about why that's important. And then the. The third team is what I'll call the. The company ambassador. Achieve. So let's go back to the center of the bullseye, and that's the marketing.

[Mike Linton]

All right, let's talk about. Let's talk about the marketing chief. You know, and I'll just also put one more overarching comment on this. We had Seth Matlin's on the show, and he called the CMO the most challenging job in business do the intersection of technology, data, customers, and the company. So, you know, and that's just the marketing part of it. Let's just talk about that.

[Kip Knight]

Well, I totally agree. It's the toughest job in the C suite for a couple of reasons. First of all, and you talked about this a number of times on your show, Mike, if you're the cfo, the job spec and the role and responsibility are pretty consistent. Doesn't matter if you're a Startup or Fortune 500, if you are a CMO at a startup, you have a radically different set of responsibilities than if you were the CMO at Taco Bell like I was. And the other challenge you've got is you've got a group of people you're working with who all think they're better marketers than you are. I asked that question. Everybody I talked to, there's just something about marketing. Everybody.

[Mike Linton]

And we're not talking about the marketers on your team. You're talking about the rest of the.

[Kip Knight]

Talking about the rest of the world.

[Mike Linton]

Everybody thinks they can do marketing. And then everyone goes home and uses a new tool or reason article on what's going on now in TikTok or AI, and they come in and they say, how come we're not doing this? But you're right.

[Kip Knight]

Sorry.

[Mike Linton]

Keep going.

[Kip Knight]

Well, no, and so, you know, the day that you get the job, I just want to remind everybody that, you know, the cmo, the chief title is earned. Non given. You have got to demonstrate why you deserve to be the marketing chief. And I've. I've got a couple of thoughts surrounding that. The first is as you're. If you're aspiring cmo, and that's your ultimate destination, and Mike, you've done it, what, five times now. You have got to start thinking about that well before you get into the role. And one of the first things I'd love to hear your reaction to this is it's a little bit like being a symphony conductor. You don't necessarily need to know how to play every single instrument in the orchestra, but you need to know what good looks like. And so as you're coming out through your career path, I would encourage any aspiring CMOs, if they want to be the chief Marketing officer, to know enough about each of the marketing functions that they can. They can not only know what good looks like, they can evaluate talent. They can know where they need to strengthen their team. And frankly, they need to be able to get to the point where they can delegate as much of the data responsibilities as possible to that marketing team. So, Mike, what. What's your reaction on that, on getting ready?

[Mike Linton]

I think that's dead right. And I would add curiosity into that mix. And let's look at marketing. There's all these tools. There's all the old tools you may have seen, like television, search, CRM, all the new tools like influencers, AI, everything else that's coming out. The power of big data. Your job is to stack all those tools together and make them work. And there's no way you can have intimate knowledge of every tool, much less how they stack together. Your job, though, is to coordinate those tools and your org in a way you get the most out of stacking them all up and then get the right talent to run them. If you have only experienced one or two of those tools in your life, and this is. A lot of people come out of performance marketing only they get in the CMO job and they can't manage the rest of the functions.

[Kip Knight]

Right.

[Mike Linton]

They want to. They want to run it like they run performance marketing. And some of those functions, particularly if you throw in PR and everything else, they don't run that way. And. And you have to have curiosity as to how they actually run and how consumers experience them and then how to stack them. So I think that is a really good comment by you. And also the need to get talent that can run some of these competencies.

[Kip Knight]

Yes.

[Mike Linton]

Know it better than you. That is also a skill that you want to be working on.

[Kip Knight]

Yes, exactly. Because frankly, you're never going to get outside that first circle of marketing cheat unless you are, you know, kicking butt and taking names in that marketing role. If the house is on fire, you're not going to be able to do anything else. And so just to go back and reemphasize the importance of that role more than any other level function I can think of, you've got to go to school every day. You've got to be, I like the word curious. You've got to have a hunger to learn, learn, learn. You've also got to be flexible in your thinking because Mike, think about how many times you know what was good is not, not, not, not good anymore. It's obsolete, it's out the window.

[Mike Linton]

And also you have to ask why? Why did consumers do this? Or why did my target market do this? Not like, how come they didn't do what I wanted them to do.

[Kip Knight]

Right.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah. And I just got to try harder. That's probably not the reason.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah. So I have a lot of respect for CFOs, but I would argue that CMOs, if they're successful, have got to be just aggressively curious, aggressively hunger for more knowledge, and also very open minded. So it takes a very special individual to be able to master all those things. So anywho, that is the first circle. If you can, if you can do that, if you can get to the point where you've got a strong team that you can delegate to get what good looks like. And the marketing function is doing what it needs to be doing, I think then and only then you can proceed to the second circle in this bullseye that I've talked about and that's this first team concept.

[Mike Linton]

Let's talk about first team. But first, what are the biggest mistake you see CMOs making in this inner circle of just being marketing competent?

[Kip Knight]

Well, you, you preached about a couple things before, so I'll just re emphasize what you, what you've said. But the first and the biggest one is a lack of alignment with the CEO and the CFO in terms of what marketing is going to deliver. Marketing is a means to an end. It is not an end to itself. One big mistake I've seen plenty of marketers make, especially in front of boards, is they'll just talk ad nauseam about marketing metrics. And they do not get the big picture, they do not get the punchline, and they do not recognize they are not communicating with the rest of the board, which, by the way, 90% of them don't have any marketing background whatsoever. But that doesn't stop them from feeling like they're all marketing experts. So you have got to be fanatical about the financials and the ultimate delivery of whatever the company is all about. And if you don't have a real comfortable knowledge of that and you're not able to connect all the dots and say, hey, all this good marketing stuff is going to lead to greater revenue, greater profit, you know, more loyal customers, a stronger brand equity, et cetera, et cetera. You know, you're living on bar time. So that's the biggest mistake I see. And my.

[Mike Linton]

I agree with you.

[Kip Knight]

Give me an amen.

[Mike Linton]

Amen. Hallelujah. Like, if you translate your marketing for financial people, don't make them try and understand your language. Let's go to the first team chief. Like, what is the first team? And tell us about it.

[Kip Knight]

I'm a big fan of Pat Linzioni. He's the founder and the CEO of the Table Group. He's written a number of really great books. You've probably read some of them. The Five Dysfunctions of Team the Advantage. His latest one is called Working Genius. Strongly recommend you read any of those. They're really good. But his whole point is, and it's a little bit counterintuitive, but his whole point is, as the chief marketing officer, you have got to be more loyal and more interested in what your first team is doing, even above the marketing team. And what do I mean by that? It means that if you cannot spend the time and the effort getting to really know and appreciate and understand where the other C level executives are coming from, especially the cfo, then it doesn't really matter what the marketing team is doing. If you're not totally aligned with your first team and you're willing to back whatever direction they want to go, then you're probably going to all fail. And again, I've seen that too many times where if a business especially is in trouble, you know, the first gun reaction the CFO is going to have is cut marketing. And then it starts this death spiral and everybody starts, you know, interviewing for jobs somewhere else and the agency gets disillusioned, et cetera, et cetera. The contrast to that is if you have an online first team and you've got a CMO that is actively working on building relationships, especially with a CFO with that first team. And the CMO is really good at going back and translating to the marketing team exactly what the marketing team needs to do for the overall business to succeed. Then you're looking at a formula for success. And so that's the reason the first team is so important and why you got to spend the time making sure that you. You work closely with them to make you. You're not just initially aligned, but you're continually aligned no matter what the business does.

[Mike Linton]

And look, I think there's a very important thing about the first team, which is that's the score you care about most, which is the company score. And marketing is a mean to the end for the company score. And I think a lot of marketers can get hung up on how well they're doing and maybe not translating that to the first team outcomes.

[Kip Knight]

I think you've, you've given a number, number of examples with the various podcasts you've had in terms of the importance of first team, even I might not have called it that. I'd say an acid test for first team is how much of an alignment and frankly a partnership do you have with your cfo? If it gets tough and the CFO is protecting your marketing budget because the CFO absolutely believes the importance of the marketing investment, then you have succeeded as a first team member. If the opposite of that is true, you probably have failed. What are your thoughts on that?

[Mike Linton]

No, I think that is dead right, which is you want the company to understand what you're trying to accomplish versus being some special function hanging out in the company. And if you act like a special function, like nobody understands are creative but us, and we care a lot about brand metrics and consideration, and they will inevitably translate to sales. Take our word for it. You are by definition not getting followers, and you need those followers in other functions to understand what you're doing and to be aligned with it so that they see marketing as a means to their end, not just a special thing that the marketers do off in their wing or their floor.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah, let me build off of that because I, you know, I talked to a number of CEOs that are hiring coaches for their CMO. And one of the number one complaints I get from CEOs is the CMO is not willing to go out there and preach the gospel of marketing to the rest of the company. And cmo and Mike, I'm sure you did this. I know I did. You've got to take every opportunity to go to any all hands meeting or any departmental meeting. That's not marketing.

[Mike Linton]

Everyone and Brimstone, baby. Fire and Brimstone.

[Kip Knight]

Well, and get them excited. Make them feel like they're part of the marketing team. Help them understand that everybody's a marketer and marketing is not exclusive to the marketing department.

[Mike Linton]

Well, and I think when you've got. When you go out explaining why you're doing it, not just sharing what you do.

[Kip Knight]

Right.

[Mike Linton]

Important. And why you're doing it, in a way is going to impact the financials and the growth of the company.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

Yourself as a growth engine. I think that's super helpful. And I'm sure you've done a lot of this, too, with. With your companies and your boards.

[Kip Knight]

Absolutely. And you know, boy, I tell you, one of the things I think all CMOs need to be really great at is storytelling. I know you're a great storyteller. I enjoy telling stories. And the more stories that you can tell in front of these different groups as to the role of marketing and the role of your company and what makes your company special and different, the better, because that. That creates a really strong culture in which everybody feels like they're on the same team.

[Mike Linton]

All right, so do we go to the third team Miatte, or do you want to talk more about the first team?

[Kip Knight]

No, I think that's pretty much it for first team. The first team principle, I think, is a fairly simple one, but it's one that requires continual focus and effort. And frankly, it's comfortable to kind of fall back into your marketing silo. Just hang out with the agency and hang out with your marketing team and talk marketing speak all day long. But that is a formula for failure, because you have. You have got to go out there on a daily basis and make sure that you are preaching the gospel of marketing across the entire company. Not just, you know, the people that have already converted those.

[Mike Linton]

They're already the believers. The other thing I think I cannot emphasize enough the storytelling component of why you are doing it and how this should translate for it into the company's good. Not just that is really good work, but how it helps the company grow and succeed. So.

[Kip Knight]

And the theme behind all of that, that you could just use as a bit of a roller or an acid test. And I know you know this already. You know, the role of marketing primarily is to listen and respond to the voice of the customer. I mean, you cannot say that enough. And the more you can go to the rest of the organization and explain, this is what the customer is thinking and feeling and doing and reacting to relative to competition. And this is what we're doing in response to that, both in terms of marketing and all the other things we're doing. Because that is what I think makes marketing unique. You're the only one that's going to be the representative of that customer on a daily basis, reminding everybody, why are we here and why is it important.

[Mike Linton]

Great. Let's go to the third type of chief. I called it the third team, but really it's the third chief, which is that you call it the company ambassador chief. What is that and why should people think about it?

[Kip Knight]

Okay, so let's assume that you've done a great job and you've got a highly functioning marketing team that's humming along and you've delegated to them and they're nailing it, and they're delivering not only the marketing metrics or financial metrics. So let's assume that you've done a great job with the first team. You're aligned with the organization. You're aligned with what the CEO and the CFO want to do, and you're also aligned in terms of having everybody in the company feel like they understand the marketing mission and what they can do about it. Then and only then do you get permission to go to this third level.

[Mike Linton]

And I want to emphasize then and.

[Kip Knight]

Only then, then and only then, because that means marketing. You're doing the marketing method. You're doing the company ambassador. Before you've done step one and step two, it's not going to end well. It's not.

[Mike Linton]

Because step one is you're doing really good marketing. Step two is the company understands and is supporting you. Step three is here we go.

[Kip Knight]

Step three is, and again, we're storytellers. We should be looking for any and all opportunities to go tell the story of the company to the rest of the world. And what are some specific ways in which you can do that? You've already mentioned public relations, but I think public relations is an area that if you're. If you're really good as a marketer, you should be able to work closely with not only your PR company, but also, frankly, if you're in certain categories, you're lobbyists, and try to figure out, how is our company being perceived? Is that how we want it to be perceived? What are some big issues going on out in the real world that are going to affect the way that that positioning is going to be impacted, and how do we proactively get ready for that? So rather than just Delegate things like PR or lobbying to some other part of the organization. I would totally embrace it and make sure it's totally integrated with whatever the marketing message you've got to have. Because if you don't do that Fargo customer. And it's really important to continually, continually reinforce those things that make your company unique, special, and worth paying attention to.

[Mike Linton]

Well, and also that that earned media can really help drive a lot of business results, depending on how it works. So you talked about the three chiefs, the three levels. How do you know you've done. You've done a lot of coaching, done CMO boot camp. How do you know you actually have enough experience to be. To ascend to the actual CMO role? Like, how do you gauge what you know, are you ready to be in these three chiefs? How do you get good at it?

[Kip Knight]

Well, I think it starts ideally at the beginning of your career. So if we've got some ambitious young, aspiring, you know, versions of Mike Linton 30 years ago or.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Kip Knight]

Hey, Kip, you just froze as you can.

[Mike Linton]

Yep, you just froze. You just froze. Start that answer all the way again.

[Kip Knight]

Okay. So one of the ways I think you can best get ready for it is to go out and actually talk to as many CMOs as you can. And as a young marketer, frankly, I think that, you know, especially with LinkedIn and a lot of the networks that are available out there, if somebody came up to you, Mike, and said, you know, boy, you've been such a successful CMO, I'd love to get 15 minutes of your time to learn. How can I get prepared to be a great cmo? Would you. Would you grant them an audience or.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah, I'll talk to almost anybody. I know you will, too. Most CMOs will. But I. But I also think the thing is, you have to take an inventory of what you're good at and not good at before you ask, like, you know, and. And that. That curiosity about what am I not good at? The. You know, and how do I get better at it? Is. Is really important. And that curiosity of having a. All three of these chiefs or a full portfolio of skills is a really big deal. So keep going on how you get ready, because you can. But you can also practice a lot.

[Kip Knight]

You can. And again, you and I are both believers in annual development plans. And to your point, because people will tell you what you're not good at, will tell you what you need to work on, and sadly, they'll tell you.

[Mike Linton]

A lot of what you're not good at.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah. And again, I Believe your primary focus should be on doubling down on your strengths. Just like Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and not so hot in terms of baseball, but you can really identify in your development plan on an annual basis. Here are the one or two things I really want to get better at, and here specifically are some ways I can go do that. I can either go get additional training. I can take on a special project. I can maybe even go work in a different function. I'll give you an example. Let's say that you had a marketer that felt like they were not really strong in the finance area. Well, why not have them do a special project working with the finance team to try to, you know, develop some more insightful analytics or to go, you know, study a particular financial issue that's coming up. In other words, yeah, listen, don't listen.

[Mike Linton]

To earnings calls and then run through accounting stuff on your own and listen to analyst calls. And like, there's lots of things you can. You can learn from, you know, including. I mean, there's tons of ways to learn financials, including asking the financial people to train you. So.

[Kip Knight]

And they'll probably be flattered that you took the time to do that, because, frankly, that's probably something that's never happened in the history of the company before. But you're only limited by your imagination. And I would encourage people to be creative and come up with different ways of learning and satisfying that curiosity quotient. The other thing that I would emphasize is that as the boss of that person, it is really important that they support that and do everything they can to get that person ready. Because. And Mike, I can say that I'm this. I'm sure you can, too. One of the biggest satisfactions you'll have as a manager of marketing talent is to see those people continue to grow and rise and go off later on and become probably even stronger marketers than you were. And looking back over the number of people that I've trained over the years and still stay in touch with, that is incredibly gratifying. So for all you marketing bosses out there, put the effort in to train your young talent, it will come back and reap many, many rewards.

[Mike Linton]

But I have to add one thing on training. You're not a good trainer. If you tell your people they're great all the time and they're good at everything. A good.

[Kip Knight]

I never said that, Mike.

[Mike Linton]

No, I know, but I. I mean, what you see when you're coaching a lot of people is they've been told they're great all the time and they've been told they're really good. I think what you want is a trainer that will find areas you're not so good at or you haven't been exposed to and force you into them and then force you to take your good skills and make them great. And one of the ways you don't do that is by rating everybody at the top of the scale on everything, because you're not really training them for the, the real game. You're just making them feel good. And that's really important.

[Kip Knight]

You're absolutely doing them a disservice because when they get into a situation where they really need to know that and they think they've got the gold star and they find out they don't really know the basics, they're going to get crushed. Because people can figure out very quickly if their boss is bullshitting them or not. And to have a boss that knows what good looks like, you're going to have a lot different relationship than one in which you can go in there and feel like, well, this guy had no idea what he's talking about. I can tell him anything, he'll believe it. So, no, you gotta hold the standard tie. It's just like being an athlete and thinking that you can just skimp out on all the training and skimp out on all of the requirements and you gotta be ready to play ball the day you show up on the field.

[Mike Linton]

Well, and we've also established that the tools, the math, the data, the integration, everything else is evolving at speed. So the idea that you are good at it ever.

[Kip Knight]

Yeah.

[Mike Linton]

So as you are trying to be just at the front end of it is a super important training thing, which is your goal is to just to stay at the front end of technology, meaning the company meeting the customer. Not to be, not to get a lot of satisfaction that you are. You have it all wired. You're never going to have it all wired.

[Kip Knight]

One of I mentioned Pat earlier, the guy that the table group, the guy I mentioned earlier, he's got a great way to think about this. He says anybody who's going to do well has got to be hungry, humble and smart. And I love that because if you've got all three of those, you're. You're ready. If you're lacking on any of those three, you're in trouble. So as a manager, I want you to think about whether or not your team is hungry, humble and smart. If you're not, what are you doing about it?

[Mike Linton]

All right, I think this gets us a Good way. Get us to our last question. It's a two parter, as you know, since you're one of the OGs. Funniest story you can tell on the air and or practical advice to our listeners we haven't discussed yet. You can take both or one, but you have to take at least one.

[Kip Knight]

My humor is a very dangerous thing. So I'm going to pass on the humor. Even though you're fine.

[Mike Linton]

I'll do the humor for both of us.

[Kip Knight]

But, but let me, let me just close with one thought and it's going to sound a little bit sappy, but I don't care. I think it's still true. And that is the journey is the reward. And what do I mean by that? You and I both know John pepper. He was CEO of P& G. I would argue maybe the greatest CEO at P& G. And I talked to him one time about how he was enjoying the role of CEO and he told me something that was pretty surprising. He said, actually my favorite job was when I was brand manager on Scope mouthwash. And I was like gobsmacked. Like, why? I mean, I would think CEO would be a much cooler job than that. And the reason he gave feeling that way was he said, I felt like I was in totally control of my destiny. You know, I had my brand, I had my team, I had my agencies, I knew exactly what the competition was all about. So every day was just a real fun day to come in and build the business and feel like you were doing things I had a lot of control over. As opposed to CEO where it's like playing dodgeball every day of your life. You get to go in there, you don't even see where the next missile's coming from. It's just incredibly intense and high paced and tough. The lesson I take away from that is enjoy the journey. No matter if you're a brand assistant or you're the CEO or anything in between, I would just urge people to step back periodically and really relish what they're enjoying about the job. Because, Mike, as you and I know even more now than we did a long time ago, it goes by very quickly. And if you don't stop and really appreciate what's going on, including the people you're working with, you're really missing out.

[Mike Linton]

I think that's a great way to end the show. Thank you, Kip. Thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential and thanks to Props Co, our title sponsor. Look for more of our shows on the I Hear Everything network, Spotify Apple and YouTube, which include marketing. The battle between believers and non believers. Parts 1, 2 and 3. The Rise and fall of peloton as seen through the eyes of cltv. And Kip's earlier shows, why marketers should learn finance and why the short shelf life of CMOs. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.