Maryam Banikarim | What CMO's Talk About Behind Closed Doors - CMO Confidential

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The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential,
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the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the Head of Marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.
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Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former CMO of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest Maryam Banakaram. Today's topic what CMOs talk about behind closed doors. Now Miriam is a four time CMO having been in charge of marketing at Nextdoor, Hyatt Hotels, Gannett Corporation and Univision and NBC. Oh, and NBC. So many CMO jobs I can't even keep track.
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So many, so many I don't have
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enough even paper to write all your stuff down. She's currently the Chair of the Wall Street Journal CMO Console and host of the Messy Parts podcast, a show that focuses on the struggles and setbacks behind extraordinary careers. Full disclosure, I've known Miriam for a number of years as we were both members of the original marketing 50. She also did a show earlier in CMO Confidential called Tales from the Marketing Crypto which also featured her TED Talk on Life Is like an Obstacle Course. Welcome back Miriam.
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B
Thank you for having me on for a part two. I'm waiting for part three already.
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There you go. Well, keep keep your eyes peeled for good topics. So let's jump right in. You are talking to marketers all over the world. What's your take on the state of marketing?
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Well, you know, it's interesting. Having done the job myself for a long time. Like you, it always feels like the tools are evolving and now there's a sense that the tools are evolving at a much higher pace with AI. And I see it from the vantage point of the Wall Street Journal CMO Council, but also as a member of a public board because you're having to oversee from a governance perspective that organizations are up to speed on all things AI. And I think the thing that I'm noticing now is that there's a Pivot from AI being a tool for efficiency to AI being a tool for growth and innovation, because I think that everybody was quick to get to the cost savings, but it's actually not that easy. In fact, today I noticed that somebody shared a headline of companies hiring people back again because it's. First of all, it still hallucinates. It's not perfect. Adoption is still a thing. And there are very much things that you still need a human for. Now. Will that change? I don't know. I saw a very scary documentary about AI on the plane. But the truth is, people are beginning to use it. People are beginning to do things. Like the craziest one I'd heard was that they had a conference for agents by agents, and that was actually at the request of an agent. So, you know, some people are quite evolved. I think the biggest thing is that you have to change culture. It's not just introducing the tools. It reminds me of many, many years ago when I worked at NBCUniversal. It was in the GE days. And so not surprising, GE had introduced Salesforce to the sales team as a way to use CRM, which was not a thing at that point. And the salespeople just wouldn't use it. They just couldn't get adoption. And so at one point they said, okay, well, the only way to do that is to actually tie it to compensation. So it was like, if. If we don't see you log in and log out, and it was the basic days so they could track whether you signed in, you won't get your bonus. And so people would literally log in and then log out.
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That's an easy bonus. I wish that's all I had to do, get a bonus.
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So I. So I think you have to figure out culturally how you bring people along. It's been interesting to hear that some of the people doing the best vibe coding are not in the technology department, but in the marketing department, which I guess isn't surprising because you're looking for creativity. So I think we're going to see all kinds of different things show up. But for sure, there's not a conversation of, are you using AI? It's more just the degree to which people are using AI and how the depth of the AI they're using and how that shows up.
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And are marketers doing a lot of this out of fear of not of being passed or because it's a really great idea? Because one of the things I'm hearing is marketing's the front end of a lot of AI, and if you're not doing something, you're going to be killed. So you got to be doing it. Tell me what you're seeing.
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The expectation. The expectation is that you're going to be using it. And even at the board level, I think if I just went to Stephen Wolf's Alpha Council conference and people, if you're on a public board, you're supposed to be asking those questions. How are you using it? Are the risks, like the expectation is that you are using it, the degree to which you're using it, how you're using it, I think those obviously vary. There are people who've plugged everything in. Other people are still experimenting. You know, I think if you were a solopreneur, like, I don't. I clearly use AI, but I don't have everything, you know, on one system married to each other, because if it goes down, I don't have an IT department who's going to come rescue me. Right. But at companies, they're all really behind walls and in protected environments, and they really are pushing people to use it in ways that obviously are safe and logical for the organization. Now, does it always work as we know? Not always. Somebody said the most creative people are in the marketing department, but they don't necessarily know how to protect some of the data and they'll put it in and we have to figure out how to put up guardrails. These are all interesting, important points. I think it's creating a lot more interaction between the cto, the Chief Digital Officer, the cmo, where they. There's just more convergence.
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So let's go to the title of the show, Behind Closed Doors, because between the podcasting and the CMO console and everything else, I'm sure you hear a lot of what's really on people's minds that's not out in the open. Tell me, what are you hearing behind closed doors?
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Well, I mean, I hear more and more about people wondering if they want the job. Now, of course, they have to be at a place in their career where they can afford not to have the job or to ask themselves that question. I think there's just more questioning that's happening than I have had expected before. Now, you and I started off this conversation saying, you know, especially if you're with people who've been in the C suite, they don't quite know how to turn it off. So it's hard for them to think about retirement.
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Or you do a podcast or something, you know, because you can't turn it off.
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Exactly. You find other ways to be busy you write a book, you do a podcast, you teach, you know, you join boards. But I think there's just more questioning of, is this the job I want? I increasingly see people who are CMOs now sometimes pivoting to become chief growth officers, chief commercial officers. Like, the job of the CMO obviously, just constantly is pivoting. There's more people who were in comms who now own brand or marketing. Right. Like, you're just seeing lots more changes in definition for what this job was from, you know, when Jim stengel was the CMO P&G, which, as you and I know, was a while ago.
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Yeah. But this, like, I want. I may not want the job is I want it to evolve or I don't want it at all, or it's more than I thought. What are you hearing there?
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I think it's all of those things. I mean, I think it's a lot. And I think, you know, marketing's always been the place that's easy to sort of look at and flip out. So, you know, the. The rate of transition in a CMO job has pretty much been the same. You know, it varies by a couple months here and there. I think people, you know, wonder if this is the job or if there's a different way to do the job. I know CMOs who want to be CEO. You know, as I think I mentioned you, I just had Jeff Jones on. You know, he was one of the first CMOs that we were cohorts of who went run the rideshare business globally for Uber and then became the CEO of.
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Yeah.
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And then also you remember. Why am I blanking on his name? Our friend who was at Mattel, Richard Dixon, so he went to go run Jones Group, then he went back to Mattel, and now he's running Gap. Right. So some people have that. It's funny, I asked Jeff Jones if he'd always known he wanted to be CEO, because for me, I never was interested in the CEO role. In fact, I remember a boss who was a CEO saying, well, you can take this job when I'm gone. And I thought I said, no, when you go, I'm going. And she was like, what do you mean? Like, it just couldn't occur to her that I wasn't interested in that. I was like, I know what I'm good at. I also know what gives me joy, and managing Wall street is not one of them. So, I mean, I think part of it is just having clarity as to what you want. And I think the one. The other thing I Would say to you is, I talked to a lot of CMOs in CAN, and I was interested in the fact that a lot of the tech CMOs no longer have to sell in the idea that brand matters. But what they're saying is that they now have CEOs or executive teams who understand that the combination of performance and brand really yield the best results. So they no longer have to do the presentation I had to do over and over again, which is like, here's the value.
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Why the brand matters. Yes.
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You know, and they only realize the brand matters when things go sideways and all of a sudden they have to worry about their reputation. Right. But now they don't have to do that anymore. But they're definitely marrying performance and brand in ways that really yield them much better results. And I definitely saw that at nextdoor when we did tests to see if we could pull something out or how we combine things. For sure, when you had the overlay, it performed better. And that's what they're saying as well.
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So when you were at Khan or Can I never say it right. You probably got a feel for the real impact on what's going on with agencies and marketing jobs in general. Is there. How. How do you feel about the ad, ad agency, the media agency business, everything else going on?
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Well, I mean, you just have to read the headlines. There's like layoffs, consolidations, and then mergers. Yeah, there's. There's more and can than I've ever seen. Right. And. And can extends past the Croisette to yachts and helicopters and Santa Pay. And I don't know, people are, you know, villas and whatnot. At the same time, you know, I was at the ad Council dinner when, you know, one of the big holding companies had announced layoffs in the morning. And then we were all, you know, let them eat cake, having dinner. And so I think that people definitely notice that people talk about that. I think there's a sense of. Of just more uncertainty than I've seen before. And it's partly because people sort of have a sense that they could show up at a job and not know what's coming.
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Right.
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Didn't used to be quite as pronounced. I would say to you, on the flip side, I would say to you, a lot more people have side hustles than in our era because they know that there's less security. The other thing at Cannes was that there was a lot of creators. For the first time, can had an official creator track. And I think that, you know, media has transformed. It's no Longer, you know, we don't all gather to watch the morning news or, you know, the Today show or whatever.
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Right.
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People are, you know, creating content in other places. And the value of owning your own audience, particularly for creators, is a thing. And so it was interesting and actually kind of amazing to be invited to, like, a creator lunch and sit with people who are creators globally that Adobe had invited to be part of a whole track and then also to just hear from them about what their experience is like. They tended to be slightly younger, but I remember after. After I'd been to one of the events, we stayed connected on Instagram and I noticed that he'd been locked out of his Instagram account or his Facebook account, which, by the way, we all know happens. Right. Like, right.
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You.
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If that's how you're making your money and all of a sudden your audience taken away from you, it's a real thing. And in fact, I had Rick McGuire, who's one of the bigger accounts on Instagram, who had subway creatures that had happened to him early on. And he figured out a way to get his audience back. But there's no phone number to call. I mean, if you remember back to when you and I started in the business, can you imagine not being able to call someplace? So. And by the way, I've had this experience before myself, so if you have an issue with some account, you know, it's like that meme of like, agent, agent, agent. Beyond that, because you. There's actually no phone number. So you can go and put in a thing in a comment and hope you hear back somewhere in your lifetime. That's a real, real thing. So, I mean, I think it's interesting that it's become even more complicated and for people whose entire life. Right. Like their work.
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Yes. It's like turning off the electricity around.
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Yeah. The Internet go out.
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So when. When you were at Cannes, a bunch of people, and we've had a number of them on the show, feel like Cannes is really like a throwback. It's not really breaking any new ground, and it's more of a boondoggle where everyone gets an award. What's your thoughts on that?
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Look, I think that if you go to Cannes, you have to know how to navigate can. It can be very overwhelming. There are people who go for the first time. And honestly, there was somebody who, of course, used AI to create a document that had every single event that was happening at Cannes. So it was like 1600 events in four days. Like, that's a lot to manage. So I Think you have to have a plan for what you're going to get out of can. Right. Like anything, it's like if you're thoughtful about what your goal is, then I think you can accomplish that. I actually spent a couple of couple, you know, afternoons, like in the Palais, which less and less people go in the Palais because frankly, I mean, in the old days of Cannes, that was where the action was and you had to buy an expensive ticket to get in. Now you could go to Canada. Never go into the Palais. Right. Because so many of the activations are not within the grounds right there. I thought it was super interesting. One of the partners from Goodbye Silverstein actually showed a video that was probably half baked where he wants to make a musical and he'd use AI only to create a short clip of a musical. He wants to get funding, like as a pitch deck. And he was showing it. And I think, like, what's always interesting to me, because this is not the first wave of technology that you and I have lived through. Yeah, there's always early adopters, there's always naysayers. There's definitely people I interview for jobs or I talk to who say to me, AI is bad for the environment, I don't want to use it. And you think to yourself, you're gonna get left behind. Like, I don't know how that works, but I understand their, their concerns at the same time. Right. And what was interesting to me was seeing him not just use the AI to do that for his side hustle, but to share it on the big stage. And at first I was like, okay, well that was kind of a half baked idea. But really it takes courage to show a half baked idea as the head creative at a big agency. Right. But it reminded me of the early days of the Internet, which now is hard to believe, but in 1980, in 92 or 93, I think I graduated 93. And I was at Y and R. And in those days the only people who did websites were engineers. And so the websites, and they were so bland. And I remember one guy actually took a couple of creatives and trained them on the computer and then had them make DVDs because that was the day when we thought DVDs would outlive the Internet. And the DVDs were so lush and interesting. And so I think what you're beginning to see, it not just be tech people, like other people experimenting with it. And where that leads, I think will be interesting. I interviewed Will. I am. He's all in on AI, right? He's like, we joke that he should create an agent of his mom because he brought his mom with him to Cannes and they were so close. And we all wanted to be able to call William's mom like he does. And. And I will say, like, it's hard to imagine that AI is a fad and it's going away. But will it change and morph? Sure. But it was also scary to see this documentary where the people who worked in the risk space around AI of which there weren't many, they were clearly outnumbered by, you know, all the Sam Allmans of the world. They didn't want to procreate.
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Hey, tell me about the side hustles. You said there's way more side hustles. That's one thing on the side hustle front. And is that career protection or just fun?
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I think it's both. I actually asked at a dinner how many people who work for you have a side hustle? And most people's employees had side hustles. And some people said, we don't pay them enough, so they have a side hustle. So I'm okay with it. They tended to be more on the consulting side. They were like, no, you're not supposed to have a side hustle because, you know, those are still jobs where you're supposed to sleep under your desk. So, yeah, have extra hours. Why are you using it on a side hustle? I interviewed somebody who'd had a side hustle, and that eventually led to her separating from the company. And now that's what she does full time. And she makes way more money than she had at the company she was at before. So I think it's a variety of things, but the barrier to entry, to start your own business and become Steven Bartlett of Diary of a CEO is just not there anymore. So you do have people who tried the side hustle because they think that's actually going to be much better for them in the long run. Which then you're reminding me that I was on a plane coming back actually from doing along this table in Miami. And I happen to get upgraded, which, you know, when I'm working in my nonprofit world, I'm definitely not at the front of the bus usually. But anyway, I get on the plane and I'm sitting next to 20 year old next to me. We bond over our love of Solomon sneakers, which is very trendy of me, I should say.
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Very good.
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Thank you. And it turns out that he's one of three guys who had just been written up in the Wall street journal as the three, basically teenagers, although now they're in their 20s, who started an AI company that's a unicorn that's doing a more advanced version of synthetic research. And, you know, he'd been going to Miami, you know, at somebody's invitation, having sort of the time of his life, you know, at the Carbone beach that, you know, was thousands of dollars to just get into. I was at the longest table where everybody's invited and there's no hierarchy at a potluck. So we were sort of comparing notes. But I said to him, what made you decide to do this? He was a freshman at Harvard. When he left, he said, first of all, if you go to Harvard and you drop out, you can always go back. Matt Damon went back years later, in his 50s, and finished. So the risk is low. He said it's a higher risk to take a corporate job because, well, you always have the safety nets of going back to Harvard. And what do I have to lose? And I just thought that was such an interesting perspective. Right. That was not a thing. When you and I were.
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No, not a thing. Not a thing.
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Yeah. So he thought the corporate job was the bigger risk.
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Exactly. So, you know, you've previously on the show, you referred to yourself as a recovering cmo. I think you should. Let's revisit that topic. Tell us about it. And how are you recovering, or are you fully recovered?
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Well, I mean, you know what, It's a good line to throw out in the sense that I'm not in the CMO seat at a big company like I was for, I don't know, over 20 years, but I do still spend a lot of time with cmos. They're my people at the end, kind of like you. And I think what I love about cmos is, by definition, they tend to be curious and they're interested in consumers and human behavior, which is a thing we all have in common. I now get to chair the Wall Street Journal CMO Council and spend time with CMOs and understanding what's on their mind and trying to be helpful to them, and that's obviously very satisfying. But, you know, from the podcast to the longest table, the other things I do, or even the interval, the community for people who are sort of at the, you know, where they have one more job or one more company in them, sort of at a different stage in life. I've always been about community. It's not coincidental that you and I met in M50, I suppose, but I use the same skills that I use for years in the Corporate arena now just sometimes to different ends. Right. The longest table has spread because of the storytelling. Yeah.
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Tell us about the longest table.
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Yeah. I mean, really, it wasn't a business plan, you know, it was just an idea. I saw a picture of people having a meal together. It was. We were coming out of COVID and I was like, that looks amazing. They're having a meal together on the street. I had a neighbor who lived in an apartment during COVID and he would put out a camping table to have a meal with friends. And I just thought that was amazing. I was like a moth to flame. I would, like, walk over. I was like, who are you? Who are these people? Why am I not invited to the table? That might be really the thing for me.
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That was probably the whole driver.
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How come I'm not like, how come I don't have a seat at the table? So we just tried it, and we said we would rent tables and chairs and invite you to come. It's like, connect, create community, eat and have fun. That was the entire agenda. And that first year, 500 people showed up, and now we get over 2,000 people to the same event. I went to 1. There's 153 that are happening this year around the country. One in Puerto Rico just happened. There's one in October in Buenos Aires. There's one being planned in Adelaide, Australia. So it's crazy. And people say to me, why do I think that that idea, which was just a what if idea, is like becoming a movement? And I think it really is the storytelling and the fact that it's really about participation. Right. So I think one of the things I think about in terms of leadership all the time is, you know, we in global CMO jobs or any of these big jobs that we had, it was command and control. But when you do community building, it's about grace and trust, and you learn to let go and you invite others in to participate. It's a little bit true now in marketing because things are two way, but I think that it's, you know, we were. We've. I've always wanted to do a longest table across the Brooklyn Bridge. I've told this story before, but I will say it again. It's, you know, I like big, crazy ideas, and I know it's feasible. I got Eric Adams to say, yes, I walked it with the police. You know, I priced it out, the whole nine yards. That was before he ran into his troubles. And so, you know, I've been trying again.
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A
He was the mayor of New York. If you're not following.
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Yes, exactly. That was a former mayor of New York. So now we have a new mayor, everybody. He says he's the community mayor. It's going to be easier with Mamdani. And you know, of course he's a few things to take care of in his first year of office. So somebody said, oh, we should just do a stunt on the Brooklyn Bridge, since he's the social mayor. Let's do like a social video and tag him. So we sort of said it out loud and then it was like, oh, wait, it's tomorrow. Oh no, tomorrow's going to rain. Then it came up upon us and I sent out a note to some of the core volunteers. I said, you know, in 12 hours we're going to meet at the base of the Brooklyn Bridge and go try this. Who wants to come? Eight people showed up. They brought tables, chairs, tablecloths, they cooked food. And we went onto the Brooklyn Bridge. My husband said, I'm playing golf, so I won't be able to come and get you if you get arrested. We set out a table, we put out the tablecloth, and for an hour we sat and shared a meal and invited strangers to join us and made new friends and made a lot of social content. At the end of the hour, I was like, you know what, let's not push our luck. I think like, some people have to go to work. We should like break down and go. So we break down the table, some people head back to work. A few of them had that had brought the bigger tables and chairs, needed to take it onto the subway in their cart. So that was the whole thing. So I was helping them down, you know, the accessibility track down into the subway. And we get on and now there was four or five of us. And I just, I just said, I said, what if we did one on the subway? Wouldn't that be amazing? And Mike, I kid you not, I turn around and they're unfurling the eight foot table. They're putting the tablecloth on the china. And now we're sitting in the subway with strangers and strangers are eating the same food we're eating. They don't even know us. And we laughed so hard and took video content. And I thought to myself, you know, as a leader, you want people to feel empowered to take the baton without you having to say, here's step one, two and three, like they own it, right? It's such an interesting leadership lesson because how many times are you like, I'd like people in Best Buy to feel agency to solve somebody's problem and come off the manual. Like, I didn't say we should do one. I just said, like, what if? And I turn around and it is just happening. And I think it's because they feel a sense of ownership, and it's theirs as much as it is mine. And so it's been an incredible leadership lesson. It's been an incredible journey. I'm so privileged to have met people who care so deeply, who show up at other people's tables and help them. And really, the way it spreads is through storytelling because people see it and say, oh, my God, that's amazing. I want to do one. And it's, you know, as we know in social, the things that tend to do better are controversy and negativity.
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A
So nice positive story.
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B
Yeah. Oh, my God, that's amazing. Meeting.
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A
Can I flip back to the CMO gig?
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B
Yeah.
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A
In our first show, we talked about the fact that a lot of boards and a lot of CEOs really didn't. Don't understand marketing. Is that. And you mentioned that the tech companies, maybe they feel the brand is now important. Do you still feel the trend of marketing with boards and CEOs is going in the positive direction or in the negative direction?
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B
I think it's very specific to the leadership team and your CEO. I didn't say. It's definitely, like, if they're all in the clear in tech. No. Do they really have a strong.
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A
You did not say that. No, you did not.
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B
I just want to be clear. I mean, do you. Do you look and look at tech companies and can you name their CMOs the way you used to be able to name the big ones, you know, of that era? No, you really can't. Right. I think they don't have to fight the way that, you know, that we did in the earlier days of technology. So there's a seat at the table. But no, I don't think, like, they fully. You know, I'm. I just think, like, what they understand is the power of data, and they have that now. They need to care about that. But do I think that if Mark Zuckerberg had his druthers, that would be the one job he would save on his executive team? No, I don't think so. I mean, he has a great guy. He is a great guy who was his chief data officer, who. After one of our friends, by my. I'm having one of those very bricks. My God. The. The one who's now at PayPal. It'll come to me. Anyway, he. He became. He became cmo, like, when I was still at Nextdoor, like, near the end of my tenure at Nextdoor. And he also owned data, so I think that what you're seeing is, like, that marriage is much stronger for him. And actually, he just got promoted to Chief Data Officer.
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A
And that's Alex Schultz, right? Yeah, yeah, he's been on our show.
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B
Yeah, but I mean, he just got promoted to Chief Data Officer, but he owned marketing and data.
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A
Yeah.
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B
The data guy that they made and gave the CMO job to when, I
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don't know, Left to be named left. Yes. Hey, so if you could go back in time to your first CMO role and give yourself advice, what would you tell yourself? You know, X years ago, I mean,
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I was the first ever CMO at Univision. That was the first place I became cmo. Every CMO job is different from the next one that I've had, for sure. The most important thing as a cmo, besides knowing the tools and trades of storytelling, connecting emotionally moving people, things like that, is understanding the business. I mean, you have to understand the business, right? You have to know what the levers are that drive growth. In the end, the CEO's job is to drive growth, and you're doing marketing to that end. I think you and I have talked about this before.
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Yeah. And understanding the business means understanding the financials, not just the business, too.
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Yes, yes. Just knowing how the money's made. I mean, it is a business.
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It is. And marketing is a tool to drive money, not an end. So let's. Let's. Let's talk about the messy parts podcast about, you know, the. The parts nobody talks about. I guess when you look.
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B
When you look at that Antonio Lucio. I don't know why I was having that moment. Antonio Lucio was the CMO after Gary Briggs, and he is now at PayPal.
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There you go. Let's talk about the messy parts and themes you're seeing when you deconstruct people's careers and look at the tougher times.
[30:02]
B
Every single person who comes on the blue couch has had to work incredibly, incredibly hard. Like, you know, there's just a lot of hustle that shows up. They, you know, some of them will say, I didn't finish college. Some of them will say, I wasn't a good student. So that's not necessarily, you know, a common thing. But they all worked hard and, you know, there was always some luck involved. What I think sets them apart and makes them successful leaders, which is why, by definition, they end up on the couch, is that when they fall, they know how to pick themselves back up. So I say the thing is not will you fall? You will fall at some point or another. You will be fired at some point or another. Just the way it goes. The question is, how do you recover from that and how do you pick yourself back up? The people who do that better fare better.
[30:54]
A
Are there any tips? Any tips you have for how to pick yourself up? That a theme you're seeing?
[31:00]
B
Yeah. Well, they know how to lick their wounds and say, I mean, Anna Gastire on a Gastire, who was on SNL, was like, I give myself 24 hours. I have a bottle of wine, a Xanax, and then I'm like, I gotta get back up. Right. So everybody has some sort of a thing that works for them. I was struck by Joanna Cole. She has, you know, I mean, does she talk about all her messy parts, really, in that way? She made me laugh because she called her former bosses the corporate overlords. She loved them. But what she does is she looks forward. You know what I mean? She doesn't spend all her time sort of in regret. She's like, reinventing herself again. And I think that that's another skill that they definitely have is reinvention, not being afraid to learn new things. Right. Like just being willing to be curious and just keep evolving and moving forward. Right. It's easy to say, I've outgrown that. I'm too old for that. I can't do that. I can't learn AI, you know, like, that's what somebody else is going to do. I think they have the ability to roll up their sleeves and just keep going.
[32:00]
A
And it sounds like not spend a lot of time blaming everybody else, just moving past it.
[32:07]
B
Well, Gary Vayner for sure is like, you stop blaming your parents already. Harry gets right to the. He's like, I mean, at what point do you stop blaming somebody else? Like, stop blaming your parents? So I think that there's this sense of, like, having agency.
[32:26]
A
I like it. Which brings us to our traditional last question, which, you know, well, funniest story you can share on the air and. Or practical advice we haven't talked about yet. You can pick one or both of those two, but you have to pick at least one.
[32:42]
B
Okay, fine. But I'm good for a funny story because I just told it the other day. When I was very little. I. My parents we. I grew up in Iran when I was little. My mom, when I was one year old, had a scholarship to Northeastern for graduate school. So she left me, which I know everybody's like, oh, my God, how could she leave a newborn? But, you know, immigrants did that. So she left me with her parents and my dad and she came to the States a year later. My dad, who was doing military service, which everybody had to do in that era, he also left to join my mom. So, you know, I wasn't with them. My very first whatever, my early days, and then they sent for me. So I end up getting on a plane with a man I did not know who was a family friend named Bijan. And we fly to London, and from London, we fly to Boston, and he hands me to my parents and I rejoin them and end up doing preschool in Boston, which is where I learned English. Anyway, Bijan, who I've never met, but, you know, I sort of know the story that a man, a friend of the family, brought me to Boston. I was wearing a little white lamb's coat. You know, I wouldn't say hi to my mom because I didn't know her. The whole thing. I know that story is like a childhood lore. Anyway, I get a DM on Facebook and I usually, like, you know, I'm like, are you so and so's child? I sort of ignore those because I'm like, what is some creepy thing coming my way? Anyway, somehow I comes up with my mom, and my mom's like, no, that's the guy who brought you to Boston. I mean, this is like years later, right? So I respond to him and I said, oh, my mom, I happen to be with her. She says, you're the person who brought me. Well, it turns out. Well, first of all, he tells me I was a very chatty child, which will not surprise me.
[34:16]
A
That is such a shock to hear.
[34:18]
B
But I was a little shy at the beginning, but then I wouldn't stop speaking. And he delivers me to my parents. But it turns out that his roommate was the guy who ends up playing that character, Foreign man on Taxi.
[34:34]
A
Okay.
[34:34]
B
Yeah, we're dating ourselves. And he, Bijan, was the inspiration for that character.
[34:41]
A
Wow.
[34:41]
B
My funny, crazy small world story is that the man who delivered me to my parents from Iran to Boston by way of London was the foreign man.
[34:51]
A
Inspired a character in a very long running show. And also, Miriam, I must say, you have a lot of things you can blame on your parents now. So, I mean, I'm deep.
[35:01]
B
I'm deep in blame.
[35:02]
A
There you go.
[35:03]
B
No, no, look forward. I mean, that's over.
[35:07]
A
So I think a great way in the show. Thank you, Miriam. And thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential
[35:15]
B
porn, man.
[35:16]
A
I mean, there you go. If you're enjoying the show, please, like, share and subscribe. You can find all of our more than 175 episodes on Apple, YouTube and Spotify, which include what does social first even mean? And is it right for you, Colonel Mustard in the study with the job spec, how poor design shortens CMO lifespans. A futures talks about what's next for marketers and agencies and managing the geopolitical landscape. Hey, all you marketers stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.

Summary7 min read

CMO Confidential: What CMOs Talk About Behind Closed Doors
Podcast with Mike Linton and Guest Maryam Banikarim
Date: August 11, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners inside the real and often private conversations happening among Chief Marketing Officers—the pressures, shifting technology, role evolution, job security, cultural transformation, leadership, and more. Host Mike Linton (former CMO at Best Buy, eBay, Farmers, and Ancestry.com) reunites with Maryam Banikarim (former CMO of Nextdoor, Hyatt, Gannett, Univision, NBC) to explore not only the latest trends in marketing tools like AI, but also the human experiences, career paths, and candid concerns shared behind boardroom doors.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The State of Marketing: AI’s Promises and Pitfalls

[02:19–06:35]

Accelerating Tech & Culture Change: Maryam observes that AI is pushing the marketing discipline through another transformation—what began as a pursuit of efficiency has pivoted to ambitions for growth and innovation. However, the reality check is setting in: “First of all, it still hallucinates. It's not perfect. Adoption is still a thing. And there are very much things that you still need a human for.” (Maryam, 03:13)
Cultural Hurdles: Adoption lags when incentives are misaligned or when cultural change fails, as shown in a story about the introduction of Salesforce at NBCUniversal: “The only way…was to actually tie it to compensation. So…if we don’t see you log in and log out…you won’t get your bonus. And so people would literally log in and then log out.” (Maryam, 03:43)
Human+AI Collaboration: “...Some of the people doing the best vibe coding are not in the technology department, but in the marketing department, which I guess isn't surprising because you're looking for creativity.” (Maryam, 04:37)
Growing Pressure to ‘Use AI’: Marketers are under pressure from both executive teams and boards to adopt AI: “The expectation is that you're going to be using it…how you're using it, I think those obviously vary.” (Maryam, 05:15)

What CMOs Whisper: The Shifting Appeal—and Tenure—of the Role

[06:35–10:14]

Second-guessing the CMO Job: Increasingly, seasoned marketers are reconsidering whether they want the CMO seat, whether due to burnout, role ambiguity, or a desire for broader roles (e.g., Chief Growth Officer, CEO aspirations): “I hear more and more about people wondering if they want the job… there's just more questioning that's happening than I have had expected before.” (Maryam, 06:59)
Role Evolution: “There's more people who were in comms who now own brand or marketing. You're just seeing lots more changes in definition for what this job was….” (Maryam, 07:39)
Performance and Brand—No Longer Either/Or: The best tech CMOs are no longer fighting to prove brand's value; instead, “...executive teams…understand that the combination of performance and brand really yield the best results.” (Maryam, 09:29)

The Changing Agency and Creator Landscape

[10:40–14:15]

Agency Uncertainty: Consolidations, layoffs, and mergers dominate the ad and media agency world; there’s significant economic and industry insecurity: “There's more uncertainty than I've seen before…people notice that, people talk about that.” (Maryam, 11:16)
Rise of Side Hustles and Creators: Both agency and client-side marketers are hedging their bets with independent projects, and creators are ascending: “A lot more people have side hustles than in our era because they know that there's less security.” (Maryam, 11:49)
“For the first time, Cannes had an official creator track… media has transformed…The value of owning your own audience, particularly for creators, is a thing.” (Maryam, 12:07)
Owning Your Audience: Losing one’s following to an algorithm or platform lockout is a real risk for today’s creators: “...if that's how you're making your money and all of a sudden your audience [is] taken away from you, it’s a real thing.” (Maryam, 12:56)

Cannes: Boondoggle or Benchmark?

[13:57–17:27]

Navigating the Festival: Cannes is both overwhelming and strategically useful—if you’re intentional: “There are people who go for the first time…someone used AI to create a document that had every single event…1600 events in four days…You have to have a plan for what you're going to get out of Cannes.” (Maryam, 14:15)
Half-baked Ideas & Courage: Creatives are using new AI tools courageously, even imperfectly, in public: “It takes courage to show a half baked idea as the head creative at a big agency.” (Maryam, 15:39)
AI Adoption's Tensions: Technological change invites skepticism and risk aversion: “AI is bad for the environment, I don't want to use it…And you think to yourself, you're gonna get left behind.” (Maryam, 15:51)

The Side Hustle Boom & Rethinking Risk

[17:27–19:56]

Why Side Hustle?: For some, it’s financial necessity; for others, fun or career backup: “The barrier to entry to start your own business…is just not there anymore. So you have people who try the side hustle because they think that's actually going to be much better….” (Maryam, 17:52)
New Mindsets on Risk: Young entrepreneurs now see “the corporate job was the bigger risk”:
“I said to him, what made you decide to do this? …It’s a higher risk to take a corporate job because…what do I have to lose? And I just thought that was such an interesting perspective.” (Maryam, 18:52)

“Recovering CMO”: Leadership, Community & Empowerment

[20:01–26:01]

“Recovering CMO” Defined: Maryam uses her big-company CMO experience to nurture CMO communities (e.g., WSJ CMO Council) and facilitate projects like The Longest Table, emphasizing leadership through empowerment, storytelling, and collective agency:
“I've always been about community...I use the same skills that I use for years in the Corporate arena now just sometimes to different ends.” (Maryam, 21:09)
The Longest Table: An accidental movement promoting community through shared meals, growing organically to thousands of participants across cities and continents: “People say to me, why do I think that that idea…is like becoming a movement? I think it really is the storytelling and the fact that it's really about participation.” (Maryam, 22:40)
Leadership Lessons:
“When you do community building, it's about grace and trust, and you learn to let go and you invite others in to participate...as a leader, you want people to feel empowered to take the baton without you having to say, here's step one, two and three, like they own it, right?” (Maryam, 23:07 & 24:09)

CMO Role with CEOs & Boards: Has Respect Improved?

[26:10–28:16]

Still CEO-dependent: Recognition and influence for marketing leaders depends highly on the CEO and leadership culture:
“I think it's very specific to the leadership team and your CEO…Do they really have a strong [CMO]? No, you really can't…do I think that…that would be the one job [CEOs] would save on their executive team? No, I don't think so.” (Maryam, 26:34, 26:47, 27:08)
Brand & Data Now Married: Some tech CMOs now formally own both marketing and data responsibilities—reflecting a deeper integration of digital, data, and creative functions.

Reflecting on the CMO Role: Lessons and Advice

[28:24–30:01]

Universal Truths for CMOs:
“The most important thing as a CMO, besides knowing the tools and trades…is understanding the business. You have to know what the levers are that drive growth.” (Maryam, 28:39)
Finance Matters: “Understanding the business means understanding the financials, not just the business, too.” (Mike, 29:12)

On The Messy Parts Podcast: Resilience, Reinvention, and Agency

[29:22–32:25]

Resilience is Non-negotiable: Success comes not from avoiding failure but bouncing back from it: “The thing is not will you fall? You will fall...The question is, how do you recover from that and how do you pick yourself back up?” (Maryam, 30:39)
Reinvention: Winners keep evolving: “They have the ability to roll up their sleeves and just keep going.” (Maryam, 31:55)
Personal Agency: “At what point do you stop blaming somebody else?...There’s this sense of, like, having agency.” (Maryam quoting Gary V, 32:06)

Memorable/Notable Quotes & Moments

On AI Hype vs. Reality:
“It's creating a lot more interaction between the CTO, the Chief Digital Officer, the CMO…there's just more convergence.” (Maryam, 06:10)
On Burnout and Role Evolution:
“I increasingly see people who are CMOs now sometimes pivoting to become chief growth officers, chief commercial officers. Like, the job of the CMO obviously, just constantly is pivoting.” (Maryam, 07:39)
On the Importance of Storytelling in Community:
“The way it spreads is through storytelling because people see it and say, oh my God, that's amazing, I want to do one.” (Maryam, 25:27)
Mike’s Reflection on Leadership:
“How many times are you like, I'd like people in Best Buy to feel agency to solve somebody's problem and come off the manual...And I turn around and it is just happening.” (Mike, 24:44)

Funniest Story

[32:41–34:40]

Maryam recounts her childhood arrival in the US, flown over by a family friend (Bijan) she did not know:
“He tells me I was a very chatty child, which will not surprise me…Turns out his roommate was the guy who ends up playing that character, Foreign Man on Taxi. He, Bijan, was the inspiration for that character.” (Maryam, 34:18 & 34:33)

Practical CMO Advice

[28:39–29:22]

Understand your business’ growth levers and financials, not just marketing tools.
Be ready to bounce back; reinvention is essential.
Leadership now is about empowerment and community, not just command and control.

Additional Resources/Further Listening

Earlier episode with Maryam: “Tales from the Marketing Crypto”
The Messy Parts Podcast: Stories of setbacks and comebacks in extraordinary careers
Other CMO Confidential episodes: e.g., “What Does Social First Even Mean?,” “How Poor Design Shortens CMO Lifespans,” etc.

For more episodes, subscribe on Apple, YouTube, or Spotify.

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Transcript87 lines

[00:00]
A
The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential,
[00:25]
B
the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the Head of Marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.
[00:36]
A
Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former CMO of Best Buy, eBay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest Maryam Banakaram. Today's topic what CMOs talk about behind closed doors. Now Miriam is a four time CMO having been in charge of marketing at Nextdoor, Hyatt Hotels, Gannett Corporation and Univision and NBC. Oh, and NBC. So many CMO jobs I can't even keep track.
[01:22]
B
So many, so many I don't have
[01:24]
A
enough even paper to write all your stuff down. She's currently the Chair of the Wall Street Journal CMO Console and host of the Messy Parts podcast, a show that focuses on the struggles and setbacks behind extraordinary careers. Full disclosure, I've known Miriam for a number of years as we were both members of the original marketing 50. She also did a show earlier in CMO Confidential called Tales from the Marketing Crypto which also featured her TED Talk on Life Is like an Obstacle Course. Welcome back Miriam.
[02:02]
B
Thank you for having me on for a part two. I'm waiting for part three already.
[02:07]
A
There you go. Well, keep keep your eyes peeled for good topics. So let's jump right in. You are talking to marketers all over the world. What's your take on the state of marketing?
[02:20]
B
Well, you know, it's interesting. Having done the job myself for a long time. Like you, it always feels like the tools are evolving and now there's a sense that the tools are evolving at a much higher pace with AI. And I see it from the vantage point of the Wall Street Journal CMO Council, but also as a member of a public board because you're having to oversee from a governance perspective that organizations are up to speed on all things AI. And I think the thing that I'm noticing now is that there's a Pivot from AI being a tool for efficiency to AI being a tool for growth and innovation, because I think that everybody was quick to get to the cost savings, but it's actually not that easy. In fact, today I noticed that somebody shared a headline of companies hiring people back again because it's. First of all, it still hallucinates. It's not perfect. Adoption is still a thing. And there are very much things that you still need a human for. Now. Will that change? I don't know. I saw a very scary documentary about AI on the plane. But the truth is, people are beginning to use it. People are beginning to do things. Like the craziest one I'd heard was that they had a conference for agents by agents, and that was actually at the request of an agent. So, you know, some people are quite evolved. I think the biggest thing is that you have to change culture. It's not just introducing the tools. It reminds me of many, many years ago when I worked at NBCUniversal. It was in the GE days. And so not surprising, GE had introduced Salesforce to the sales team as a way to use CRM, which was not a thing at that point. And the salespeople just wouldn't use it. They just couldn't get adoption. And so at one point they said, okay, well, the only way to do that is to actually tie it to compensation. So it was like, if. If we don't see you log in and log out, and it was the basic days so they could track whether you signed in, you won't get your bonus. And so people would literally log in and then log out.
[04:25]
A
That's an easy bonus. I wish that's all I had to do, get a bonus.
[04:28]
B
So I. So I think you have to figure out culturally how you bring people along. It's been interesting to hear that some of the people doing the best vibe coding are not in the technology department, but in the marketing department, which I guess isn't surprising because you're looking for creativity. So I think we're going to see all kinds of different things show up. But for sure, there's not a conversation of, are you using AI? It's more just the degree to which people are using AI and how the depth of the AI they're using and how that shows up.
[04:56]
A
And are marketers doing a lot of this out of fear of not of being passed or because it's a really great idea? Because one of the things I'm hearing is marketing's the front end of a lot of AI, and if you're not doing something, you're going to be killed. So you got to be doing it. Tell me what you're seeing.
[05:14]
B
The expectation. The expectation is that you're going to be using it. And even at the board level, I think if I just went to Stephen Wolf's Alpha Council conference and people, if you're on a public board, you're supposed to be asking those questions. How are you using it? Are the risks, like the expectation is that you are using it, the degree to which you're using it, how you're using it, I think those obviously vary. There are people who've plugged everything in. Other people are still experimenting. You know, I think if you were a solopreneur, like, I don't. I clearly use AI, but I don't have everything, you know, on one system married to each other, because if it goes down, I don't have an IT department who's going to come rescue me. Right. But at companies, they're all really behind walls and in protected environments, and they really are pushing people to use it in ways that obviously are safe and logical for the organization. Now, does it always work as we know? Not always. Somebody said the most creative people are in the marketing department, but they don't necessarily know how to protect some of the data and they'll put it in and we have to figure out how to put up guardrails. These are all interesting, important points. I think it's creating a lot more interaction between the cto, the Chief Digital Officer, the cmo, where they. There's just more convergence.
[06:35]
A
So let's go to the title of the show, Behind Closed Doors, because between the podcasting and the CMO console and everything else, I'm sure you hear a lot of what's really on people's minds that's not out in the open. Tell me, what are you hearing behind closed doors?
[07:00]
B
Well, I mean, I hear more and more about people wondering if they want the job. Now, of course, they have to be at a place in their career where they can afford not to have the job or to ask themselves that question. I think there's just more questioning that's happening than I have had expected before. Now, you and I started off this conversation saying, you know, especially if you're with people who've been in the C suite, they don't quite know how to turn it off. So it's hard for them to think about retirement.
[07:29]
A
Or you do a podcast or something, you know, because you can't turn it off.
[07:33]
B
Exactly. You find other ways to be busy you write a book, you do a podcast, you teach, you know, you join boards. But I think there's just more questioning of, is this the job I want? I increasingly see people who are CMOs now sometimes pivoting to become chief growth officers, chief commercial officers. Like, the job of the CMO obviously, just constantly is pivoting. There's more people who were in comms who now own brand or marketing. Right. Like, you're just seeing lots more changes in definition for what this job was from, you know, when Jim stengel was the CMO P&G, which, as you and I know, was a while ago.
[08:10]
A
Yeah. But this, like, I want. I may not want the job is I want it to evolve or I don't want it at all, or it's more than I thought. What are you hearing there?
[08:20]
B
I think it's all of those things. I mean, I think it's a lot. And I think, you know, marketing's always been the place that's easy to sort of look at and flip out. So, you know, the. The rate of transition in a CMO job has pretty much been the same. You know, it varies by a couple months here and there. I think people, you know, wonder if this is the job or if there's a different way to do the job. I know CMOs who want to be CEO. You know, as I think I mentioned you, I just had Jeff Jones on. You know, he was one of the first CMOs that we were cohorts of who went run the rideshare business globally for Uber and then became the CEO of.
[09:01]
A
Yeah.
[09:01]
B
And then also you remember. Why am I blanking on his name? Our friend who was at Mattel, Richard Dixon, so he went to go run Jones Group, then he went back to Mattel, and now he's running Gap. Right. So some people have that. It's funny, I asked Jeff Jones if he'd always known he wanted to be CEO, because for me, I never was interested in the CEO role. In fact, I remember a boss who was a CEO saying, well, you can take this job when I'm gone. And I thought I said, no, when you go, I'm going. And she was like, what do you mean? Like, it just couldn't occur to her that I wasn't interested in that. I was like, I know what I'm good at. I also know what gives me joy, and managing Wall street is not one of them. So, I mean, I think part of it is just having clarity as to what you want. And I think the one. The other thing I Would say to you is, I talked to a lot of CMOs in CAN, and I was interested in the fact that a lot of the tech CMOs no longer have to sell in the idea that brand matters. But what they're saying is that they now have CEOs or executive teams who understand that the combination of performance and brand really yield the best results. So they no longer have to do the presentation I had to do over and over again, which is like, here's the value.
[10:12]
A
Why the brand matters. Yes.
[10:15]
B
You know, and they only realize the brand matters when things go sideways and all of a sudden they have to worry about their reputation. Right. But now they don't have to do that anymore. But they're definitely marrying performance and brand in ways that really yield them much better results. And I definitely saw that at nextdoor when we did tests to see if we could pull something out or how we combine things. For sure, when you had the overlay, it performed better. And that's what they're saying as well.
[10:41]
A
So when you were at Khan or Can I never say it right. You probably got a feel for the real impact on what's going on with agencies and marketing jobs in general. Is there. How. How do you feel about the ad, ad agency, the media agency business, everything else going on?
[11:02]
B
Well, I mean, you just have to read the headlines. There's like layoffs, consolidations, and then mergers. Yeah, there's. There's more and can than I've ever seen. Right. And. And can extends past the Croisette to yachts and helicopters and Santa Pay. And I don't know, people are, you know, villas and whatnot. At the same time, you know, I was at the ad Council dinner when, you know, one of the big holding companies had announced layoffs in the morning. And then we were all, you know, let them eat cake, having dinner. And so I think that people definitely notice that people talk about that. I think there's a sense of. Of just more uncertainty than I've seen before. And it's partly because people sort of have a sense that they could show up at a job and not know what's coming.
[11:49]
A
Right.
[11:50]
B
Didn't used to be quite as pronounced. I would say to you, on the flip side, I would say to you, a lot more people have side hustles than in our era because they know that there's less security. The other thing at Cannes was that there was a lot of creators. For the first time, can had an official creator track. And I think that, you know, media has transformed. It's no Longer, you know, we don't all gather to watch the morning news or, you know, the Today show or whatever.
[12:16]
A
Right.
[12:17]
B
People are, you know, creating content in other places. And the value of owning your own audience, particularly for creators, is a thing. And so it was interesting and actually kind of amazing to be invited to, like, a creator lunch and sit with people who are creators globally that Adobe had invited to be part of a whole track and then also to just hear from them about what their experience is like. They tended to be slightly younger, but I remember after. After I'd been to one of the events, we stayed connected on Instagram and I noticed that he'd been locked out of his Instagram account or his Facebook account, which, by the way, we all know happens. Right. Like, right.
[12:57]
A
You.
[12:57]
B
If that's how you're making your money and all of a sudden your audience taken away from you, it's a real thing. And in fact, I had Rick McGuire, who's one of the bigger accounts on Instagram, who had subway creatures that had happened to him early on. And he figured out a way to get his audience back. But there's no phone number to call. I mean, if you remember back to when you and I started in the business, can you imagine not being able to call someplace? So. And by the way, I've had this experience before myself, so if you have an issue with some account, you know, it's like that meme of like, agent, agent, agent. Beyond that, because you. There's actually no phone number. So you can go and put in a thing in a comment and hope you hear back somewhere in your lifetime. That's a real, real thing. So, I mean, I think it's interesting that it's become even more complicated and for people whose entire life. Right. Like their work.
[13:52]
A
Yes. It's like turning off the electricity around.
[13:54]
B
Yeah. The Internet go out.
[13:58]
A
So when. When you were at Cannes, a bunch of people, and we've had a number of them on the show, feel like Cannes is really like a throwback. It's not really breaking any new ground, and it's more of a boondoggle where everyone gets an award. What's your thoughts on that?
[14:15]
B
Look, I think that if you go to Cannes, you have to know how to navigate can. It can be very overwhelming. There are people who go for the first time. And honestly, there was somebody who, of course, used AI to create a document that had every single event that was happening at Cannes. So it was like 1600 events in four days. Like, that's a lot to manage. So I Think you have to have a plan for what you're going to get out of can. Right. Like anything, it's like if you're thoughtful about what your goal is, then I think you can accomplish that. I actually spent a couple of couple, you know, afternoons, like in the Palais, which less and less people go in the Palais because frankly, I mean, in the old days of Cannes, that was where the action was and you had to buy an expensive ticket to get in. Now you could go to Canada. Never go into the Palais. Right. Because so many of the activations are not within the grounds right there. I thought it was super interesting. One of the partners from Goodbye Silverstein actually showed a video that was probably half baked where he wants to make a musical and he'd use AI only to create a short clip of a musical. He wants to get funding, like as a pitch deck. And he was showing it. And I think, like, what's always interesting to me, because this is not the first wave of technology that you and I have lived through. Yeah, there's always early adopters, there's always naysayers. There's definitely people I interview for jobs or I talk to who say to me, AI is bad for the environment, I don't want to use it. And you think to yourself, you're gonna get left behind. Like, I don't know how that works, but I understand their, their concerns at the same time. Right. And what was interesting to me was seeing him not just use the AI to do that for his side hustle, but to share it on the big stage. And at first I was like, okay, well that was kind of a half baked idea. But really it takes courage to show a half baked idea as the head creative at a big agency. Right. But it reminded me of the early days of the Internet, which now is hard to believe, but in 1980, in 92 or 93, I think I graduated 93. And I was at Y and R. And in those days the only people who did websites were engineers. And so the websites, and they were so bland. And I remember one guy actually took a couple of creatives and trained them on the computer and then had them make DVDs because that was the day when we thought DVDs would outlive the Internet. And the DVDs were so lush and interesting. And so I think what you're beginning to see, it not just be tech people, like other people experimenting with it. And where that leads, I think will be interesting. I interviewed Will. I am. He's all in on AI, right? He's like, we joke that he should create an agent of his mom because he brought his mom with him to Cannes and they were so close. And we all wanted to be able to call William's mom like he does. And. And I will say, like, it's hard to imagine that AI is a fad and it's going away. But will it change and morph? Sure. But it was also scary to see this documentary where the people who worked in the risk space around AI of which there weren't many, they were clearly outnumbered by, you know, all the Sam Allmans of the world. They didn't want to procreate.
[17:27]
A
Hey, tell me about the side hustles. You said there's way more side hustles. That's one thing on the side hustle front. And is that career protection or just fun?
[17:40]
B
I think it's both. I actually asked at a dinner how many people who work for you have a side hustle? And most people's employees had side hustles. And some people said, we don't pay them enough, so they have a side hustle. So I'm okay with it. They tended to be more on the consulting side. They were like, no, you're not supposed to have a side hustle because, you know, those are still jobs where you're supposed to sleep under your desk. So, yeah, have extra hours. Why are you using it on a side hustle? I interviewed somebody who'd had a side hustle, and that eventually led to her separating from the company. And now that's what she does full time. And she makes way more money than she had at the company she was at before. So I think it's a variety of things, but the barrier to entry, to start your own business and become Steven Bartlett of Diary of a CEO is just not there anymore. So you do have people who tried the side hustle because they think that's actually going to be much better for them in the long run. Which then you're reminding me that I was on a plane coming back actually from doing along this table in Miami. And I happen to get upgraded, which, you know, when I'm working in my nonprofit world, I'm definitely not at the front of the bus usually. But anyway, I get on the plane and I'm sitting next to 20 year old next to me. We bond over our love of Solomon sneakers, which is very trendy of me, I should say.
[18:52]
A
Very good.
[18:53]
B
Thank you. And it turns out that he's one of three guys who had just been written up in the Wall street journal as the three, basically teenagers, although now they're in their 20s, who started an AI company that's a unicorn that's doing a more advanced version of synthetic research. And, you know, he'd been going to Miami, you know, at somebody's invitation, having sort of the time of his life, you know, at the Carbone beach that, you know, was thousands of dollars to just get into. I was at the longest table where everybody's invited and there's no hierarchy at a potluck. So we were sort of comparing notes. But I said to him, what made you decide to do this? He was a freshman at Harvard. When he left, he said, first of all, if you go to Harvard and you drop out, you can always go back. Matt Damon went back years later, in his 50s, and finished. So the risk is low. He said it's a higher risk to take a corporate job because, well, you always have the safety nets of going back to Harvard. And what do I have to lose? And I just thought that was such an interesting perspective. Right. That was not a thing. When you and I were.
[19:54]
A
No, not a thing. Not a thing.
[19:57]
B
Yeah. So he thought the corporate job was the bigger risk.
[20:01]
A
Exactly. So, you know, you've previously on the show, you referred to yourself as a recovering cmo. I think you should. Let's revisit that topic. Tell us about it. And how are you recovering, or are you fully recovered?
[20:18]
B
Well, I mean, you know what, It's a good line to throw out in the sense that I'm not in the CMO seat at a big company like I was for, I don't know, over 20 years, but I do still spend a lot of time with cmos. They're my people at the end, kind of like you. And I think what I love about cmos is, by definition, they tend to be curious and they're interested in consumers and human behavior, which is a thing we all have in common. I now get to chair the Wall Street Journal CMO Council and spend time with CMOs and understanding what's on their mind and trying to be helpful to them, and that's obviously very satisfying. But, you know, from the podcast to the longest table, the other things I do, or even the interval, the community for people who are sort of at the, you know, where they have one more job or one more company in them, sort of at a different stage in life. I've always been about community. It's not coincidental that you and I met in M50, I suppose, but I use the same skills that I use for years in the Corporate arena now just sometimes to different ends. Right. The longest table has spread because of the storytelling. Yeah.
[21:27]
A
Tell us about the longest table.
[21:28]
B
Yeah. I mean, really, it wasn't a business plan, you know, it was just an idea. I saw a picture of people having a meal together. It was. We were coming out of COVID and I was like, that looks amazing. They're having a meal together on the street. I had a neighbor who lived in an apartment during COVID and he would put out a camping table to have a meal with friends. And I just thought that was amazing. I was like a moth to flame. I would, like, walk over. I was like, who are you? Who are these people? Why am I not invited to the table? That might be really the thing for me.
[21:54]
A
That was probably the whole driver.
[21:55]
B
How come I'm not like, how come I don't have a seat at the table? So we just tried it, and we said we would rent tables and chairs and invite you to come. It's like, connect, create community, eat and have fun. That was the entire agenda. And that first year, 500 people showed up, and now we get over 2,000 people to the same event. I went to 1. There's 153 that are happening this year around the country. One in Puerto Rico just happened. There's one in October in Buenos Aires. There's one being planned in Adelaide, Australia. So it's crazy. And people say to me, why do I think that that idea, which was just a what if idea, is like becoming a movement? And I think it really is the storytelling and the fact that it's really about participation. Right. So I think one of the things I think about in terms of leadership all the time is, you know, we in global CMO jobs or any of these big jobs that we had, it was command and control. But when you do community building, it's about grace and trust, and you learn to let go and you invite others in to participate. It's a little bit true now in marketing because things are two way, but I think that it's, you know, we were. We've. I've always wanted to do a longest table across the Brooklyn Bridge. I've told this story before, but I will say it again. It's, you know, I like big, crazy ideas, and I know it's feasible. I got Eric Adams to say, yes, I walked it with the police. You know, I priced it out, the whole nine yards. That was before he ran into his troubles. And so, you know, I've been trying again.
[23:17]
A
He was the mayor of New York. If you're not following.
[23:19]
B
Yes, exactly. That was a former mayor of New York. So now we have a new mayor, everybody. He says he's the community mayor. It's going to be easier with Mamdani. And you know, of course he's a few things to take care of in his first year of office. So somebody said, oh, we should just do a stunt on the Brooklyn Bridge, since he's the social mayor. Let's do like a social video and tag him. So we sort of said it out loud and then it was like, oh, wait, it's tomorrow. Oh no, tomorrow's going to rain. Then it came up upon us and I sent out a note to some of the core volunteers. I said, you know, in 12 hours we're going to meet at the base of the Brooklyn Bridge and go try this. Who wants to come? Eight people showed up. They brought tables, chairs, tablecloths, they cooked food. And we went onto the Brooklyn Bridge. My husband said, I'm playing golf, so I won't be able to come and get you if you get arrested. We set out a table, we put out the tablecloth, and for an hour we sat and shared a meal and invited strangers to join us and made new friends and made a lot of social content. At the end of the hour, I was like, you know what, let's not push our luck. I think like, some people have to go to work. We should like break down and go. So we break down the table, some people head back to work. A few of them had that had brought the bigger tables and chairs, needed to take it onto the subway in their cart. So that was the whole thing. So I was helping them down, you know, the accessibility track down into the subway. And we get on and now there was four or five of us. And I just, I just said, I said, what if we did one on the subway? Wouldn't that be amazing? And Mike, I kid you not, I turn around and they're unfurling the eight foot table. They're putting the tablecloth on the china. And now we're sitting in the subway with strangers and strangers are eating the same food we're eating. They don't even know us. And we laughed so hard and took video content. And I thought to myself, you know, as a leader, you want people to feel empowered to take the baton without you having to say, here's step one, two and three, like they own it, right? It's such an interesting leadership lesson because how many times are you like, I'd like people in Best Buy to feel agency to solve somebody's problem and come off the manual. Like, I didn't say we should do one. I just said, like, what if? And I turn around and it is just happening. And I think it's because they feel a sense of ownership, and it's theirs as much as it is mine. And so it's been an incredible leadership lesson. It's been an incredible journey. I'm so privileged to have met people who care so deeply, who show up at other people's tables and help them. And really, the way it spreads is through storytelling because people see it and say, oh, my God, that's amazing. I want to do one. And it's, you know, as we know in social, the things that tend to do better are controversy and negativity.
[26:01]
A
So nice positive story.
[26:04]
B
Yeah. Oh, my God, that's amazing. Meeting.
[26:08]
A
Can I flip back to the CMO gig?
[26:10]
B
Yeah.
[26:11]
A
In our first show, we talked about the fact that a lot of boards and a lot of CEOs really didn't. Don't understand marketing. Is that. And you mentioned that the tech companies, maybe they feel the brand is now important. Do you still feel the trend of marketing with boards and CEOs is going in the positive direction or in the negative direction?
[26:35]
B
I think it's very specific to the leadership team and your CEO. I didn't say. It's definitely, like, if they're all in the clear in tech. No. Do they really have a strong.
[26:46]
A
You did not say that. No, you did not.
[26:48]
B
I just want to be clear. I mean, do you. Do you look and look at tech companies and can you name their CMOs the way you used to be able to name the big ones, you know, of that era? No, you really can't. Right. I think they don't have to fight the way that, you know, that we did in the earlier days of technology. So there's a seat at the table. But no, I don't think, like, they fully. You know, I'm. I just think, like, what they understand is the power of data, and they have that now. They need to care about that. But do I think that if Mark Zuckerberg had his druthers, that would be the one job he would save on his executive team? No, I don't think so. I mean, he has a great guy. He is a great guy who was his chief data officer, who. After one of our friends, by my. I'm having one of those very bricks. My God. The. The one who's now at PayPal. It'll come to me. Anyway, he. He became. He became cmo, like, when I was still at Nextdoor, like, near the end of my tenure at Nextdoor. And he also owned data, so I think that what you're seeing is, like, that marriage is much stronger for him. And actually, he just got promoted to Chief Data Officer.
[28:06]
A
And that's Alex Schultz, right? Yeah, yeah, he's been on our show.
[28:11]
B
Yeah, but I mean, he just got promoted to Chief Data Officer, but he owned marketing and data.
[28:17]
A
Yeah.
[28:18]
B
The data guy that they made and gave the CMO job to when, I
[28:24]
A
don't know, Left to be named left. Yes. Hey, so if you could go back in time to your first CMO role and give yourself advice, what would you tell yourself? You know, X years ago, I mean,
[28:40]
B
I was the first ever CMO at Univision. That was the first place I became cmo. Every CMO job is different from the next one that I've had, for sure. The most important thing as a cmo, besides knowing the tools and trades of storytelling, connecting emotionally moving people, things like that, is understanding the business. I mean, you have to understand the business, right? You have to know what the levers are that drive growth. In the end, the CEO's job is to drive growth, and you're doing marketing to that end. I think you and I have talked about this before.
[29:13]
A
Yeah. And understanding the business means understanding the financials, not just the business, too.
[29:18]
B
Yes, yes. Just knowing how the money's made. I mean, it is a business.
[29:23]
A
It is. And marketing is a tool to drive money, not an end. So let's. Let's. Let's talk about the messy parts podcast about, you know, the. The parts nobody talks about. I guess when you look.
[29:41]
B
When you look at that Antonio Lucio. I don't know why I was having that moment. Antonio Lucio was the CMO after Gary Briggs, and he is now at PayPal.
[29:50]
A
There you go. Let's talk about the messy parts and themes you're seeing when you deconstruct people's careers and look at the tougher times.
[30:02]
B
Every single person who comes on the blue couch has had to work incredibly, incredibly hard. Like, you know, there's just a lot of hustle that shows up. They, you know, some of them will say, I didn't finish college. Some of them will say, I wasn't a good student. So that's not necessarily, you know, a common thing. But they all worked hard and, you know, there was always some luck involved. What I think sets them apart and makes them successful leaders, which is why, by definition, they end up on the couch, is that when they fall, they know how to pick themselves back up. So I say the thing is not will you fall? You will fall at some point or another. You will be fired at some point or another. Just the way it goes. The question is, how do you recover from that and how do you pick yourself back up? The people who do that better fare better.
[30:54]
A
Are there any tips? Any tips you have for how to pick yourself up? That a theme you're seeing?
[31:00]
B
Yeah. Well, they know how to lick their wounds and say, I mean, Anna Gastire on a Gastire, who was on SNL, was like, I give myself 24 hours. I have a bottle of wine, a Xanax, and then I'm like, I gotta get back up. Right. So everybody has some sort of a thing that works for them. I was struck by Joanna Cole. She has, you know, I mean, does she talk about all her messy parts, really, in that way? She made me laugh because she called her former bosses the corporate overlords. She loved them. But what she does is she looks forward. You know what I mean? She doesn't spend all her time sort of in regret. She's like, reinventing herself again. And I think that that's another skill that they definitely have is reinvention, not being afraid to learn new things. Right. Like just being willing to be curious and just keep evolving and moving forward. Right. It's easy to say, I've outgrown that. I'm too old for that. I can't do that. I can't learn AI, you know, like, that's what somebody else is going to do. I think they have the ability to roll up their sleeves and just keep going.
[32:00]
A
And it sounds like not spend a lot of time blaming everybody else, just moving past it.
[32:07]
B
Well, Gary Vayner for sure is like, you stop blaming your parents already. Harry gets right to the. He's like, I mean, at what point do you stop blaming somebody else? Like, stop blaming your parents? So I think that there's this sense of, like, having agency.
[32:26]
A
I like it. Which brings us to our traditional last question, which, you know, well, funniest story you can share on the air and. Or practical advice we haven't talked about yet. You can pick one or both of those two, but you have to pick at least one.
[32:42]
B
Okay, fine. But I'm good for a funny story because I just told it the other day. When I was very little. I. My parents we. I grew up in Iran when I was little. My mom, when I was one year old, had a scholarship to Northeastern for graduate school. So she left me, which I know everybody's like, oh, my God, how could she leave a newborn? But, you know, immigrants did that. So she left me with her parents and my dad and she came to the States a year later. My dad, who was doing military service, which everybody had to do in that era, he also left to join my mom. So, you know, I wasn't with them. My very first whatever, my early days, and then they sent for me. So I end up getting on a plane with a man I did not know who was a family friend named Bijan. And we fly to London, and from London, we fly to Boston, and he hands me to my parents and I rejoin them and end up doing preschool in Boston, which is where I learned English. Anyway, Bijan, who I've never met, but, you know, I sort of know the story that a man, a friend of the family, brought me to Boston. I was wearing a little white lamb's coat. You know, I wouldn't say hi to my mom because I didn't know her. The whole thing. I know that story is like a childhood lore. Anyway, I get a DM on Facebook and I usually, like, you know, I'm like, are you so and so's child? I sort of ignore those because I'm like, what is some creepy thing coming my way? Anyway, somehow I comes up with my mom, and my mom's like, no, that's the guy who brought you to Boston. I mean, this is like years later, right? So I respond to him and I said, oh, my mom, I happen to be with her. She says, you're the person who brought me. Well, it turns out. Well, first of all, he tells me I was a very chatty child, which will not surprise me.
[34:16]
A
That is such a shock to hear.
[34:18]
B
But I was a little shy at the beginning, but then I wouldn't stop speaking. And he delivers me to my parents. But it turns out that his roommate was the guy who ends up playing that character, Foreign man on Taxi.
[34:34]
A
Okay.
[34:34]
B
Yeah, we're dating ourselves. And he, Bijan, was the inspiration for that character.
[34:41]
A
Wow.
[34:41]
B
My funny, crazy small world story is that the man who delivered me to my parents from Iran to Boston by way of London was the foreign man.
[34:51]
A
Inspired a character in a very long running show. And also, Miriam, I must say, you have a lot of things you can blame on your parents now. So, I mean, I'm deep.
[35:01]
B
I'm deep in blame.
[35:02]
A
There you go.
[35:03]
B
No, no, look forward. I mean, that's over.
[35:07]
A
So I think a great way in the show. Thank you, Miriam. And thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential
[35:15]
B
porn, man.
[35:16]
A
I mean, there you go. If you're enjoying the show, please, like, share and subscribe. You can find all of our more than 175 episodes on Apple, YouTube and Spotify, which include what does social first even mean? And is it right for you, Colonel Mustard in the study with the job spec, how poor design shortens CMO lifespans. A futures talks about what's next for marketers and agencies and managing the geopolitical landscape. Hey, all you marketers stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.