McKinsey & A.N.A | Marketing - The Battle Between Believers & Non-Believers - Part 2 | Replay

Summary

CMO Confidential Podcast Summary
Episode: McKinsey & A.N.A | Marketing - The Battle Between Believers & Non-Believers - Part 2
Release Date: December 31, 2024
Host: Mike Linton
Guests: Robert [Last Name Unspecified] and Nick [Last Name Unspecified]

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of CMO Confidential, hosts Mike Linton, Robert, and Nick delve deep into the ongoing struggle within the marketing realm—the clash between marketing believers and non-believers. The conversation explores critical issues such as the shortcomings of business schools in preparing future marketers, the evolving role of Chief Marketing Officers (CMOs), and the pivotal need for alignment between marketing strategies and overall business objectives.

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Marketing Education and Business Schools

Nick initiates the discussion by highlighting the deficiencies in business schools' approach to marketing education. He criticizes the focus on tactical rather than strategic and leadership-oriented teachings.

"A lot of the B schools are teaching tactics, not leadership and strategy and not at, and they busted it up into tactics."
— Nick [04:23]

Robert agrees, pointing out that business schools often fragment marketing into sub-disciplines like the 4Ps, which distorts the true essence of marketing. He emphasizes the competition for marketing talent extends beyond traditional companies like Procter & Gamble to tech firms and others seeking skilled marketers.

"The business schools are contributing to some of this... it used to be you wanted to go to Procter and Gamble and become a marketer and now there's just a lot of competition for that marketing brain power into other tech companies and so forth."
— Robert [01:28]

The duo underscores the necessity for business schools to evolve, advocating for curricula that foster comprehensive, strategic thinking in marketing to prepare students for leadership roles.

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The Evolving Role of CMOs

Nick discusses the fragmented nature of the CMO role across different organizations, noting inconsistencies in responsibilities and reporting structures. This lack of standardization often leads to suboptimal use of the marketing function.

"If you look at any job in the C suite... the CMO role and the marketing function that follows is wildly different... it's at best a suboptimal use of that function."
— Nick [10:16]

Robert adds that CMOs must shift from focusing on superficial marketing elements to driving customer-centric outcomes that directly impact business growth. He stresses the importance of CMOs being integrated partners with other C-suite executives, particularly the CFO, to ensure cohesive strategy execution.

"We're hurting our customers... we've got to have advocates at that table, at that C suite table to move organizations to do what's right for their customer."
— Robert [07:33]

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Alignment Between Marketing and Business Strategy

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the necessity for CMOs to align marketing initiatives with overarching business goals. Robert advocates for a systematic approach where marketing strategies are directly linked to measurable business outcomes, rather than isolated creative projects.

"We have to reimagine all of these things and we have to be systematic and thinking about how we connect the dots to move that needle."
— Robert [02:49]

Nick shares an illustrative example where 120 CMOs provided 98 different answers for the most important KPI, revealing a disconnect between marketing metrics and business priorities. This anecdote underscores the urgent need for CMOs to harmonize their key performance indicators with what truly drives business success.

"Out of 120 CMOs, 98 different answers on the KPI... the variability there and the fact that no one really landed the things that are most important to the business was... pretty startling and pissed off a lot of CEOs."
— Nick [18:27]

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Marketing's Representation on Boards

The conversation shifts to the underrepresentation of marketers on corporate boards. Robert attributes this to the perception of marketers as execution-focused rather than strategic business leaders. He argues that every company's board should include a marketing-oriented member to ensure customer-centric decision-making.

"Every company's board should have a marketing customer centric board member that is that pillar of the stack."
— Robert [15:35]

Nick concurs, noting that the few marketers on boards often offer significant strategic value. He anticipates that as the importance of marketing in driving business growth becomes more recognized, marketers will increasingly secure seats on corporate boards.

"The small percentage of CMOs or former CMOs on boards... their contributions... are as meaningful if not more so than anyone else's."
— Nick [15:59]

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Practical Advice for CMOs

In the concluding segments, Nick and Robert provide actionable insights for current and aspiring CMOs:

1. Align with C-Suite: Robert advises CMOs to build strong partnerships with other C-suite executives, particularly the CEO and CFO, to ensure marketing strategies are tightly integrated with business objectives.

   "Lock yourself in a room with your CEO and C suite and make sure you're aligned... partner with the CFO... they become advocates for you."
   — Robert [19:52]

2. Set Clear Expectations During Hiring: Nick emphasizes the importance of CMOs setting the stage during the interview process by clarifying roles and ensuring alignment with company leaders.

   "Have clear alignment... it's a constant recalibration... that communication and that process of involving them to inform your decisions."
   — Nick [12:37]

3. Customer-Centric Focus: Both guests stress the importance of prioritizing the customer experience over departmental silos, ensuring that marketing efforts genuinely enhance customer satisfaction and drive business growth.

4. Board Representation: Aspiring CMOs should seek opportunities to join boards, leveraging their strategic insights to influence broader business decisions.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Nick and Robert sharing their experiences and reinforcing the critical role of CMOs in modern businesses. They call for a reevaluation of how marketing is taught, perceived, and integrated into organizational leadership. By fostering stronger alignment with business objectives and securing a seat at the strategic decision-making table, CMOs can drive substantial growth and ensure customer-centric success.

"If you are enjoying CMO Confidential, please like share and subscribe. Hey all you marketers, stay safe out there."
— Mike Linton [21:00]

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This episode of CMO Confidential offers profound insights into the challenges and opportunities facing today's marketing leaders. By addressing educational gaps, advocating for strategic alignment, and emphasizing the importance of marketing leadership in boardrooms, Robert and Nick provide a roadmap for CMOs striving to elevate their impact within their organizations.

Transcript

[Mike Linton]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com this show is brought.

[Robert]

To you by Props, our title sponsor. Props is a performance driven content platform. They combine the attraction of creator content with the results of paid media. Instead of focusing on impressions or posts, Props takes responsibility for leads and customers. Check them out at Props Co.

[Mike Linton]

Welcome to CMO Confidential, the podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the head of marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.

[Nick]

Welcome back to Part two, A battle between the believers and non believers. Well, look, it's goofy to go to con or the Effies and talk about how great marketing is because you're talking to the believers. That that's not the problem. The problem is it's non believers. But I want to press a little bit on the business school thing, which is what the hell? Why would the business schools not be ahead of this game given the power of marketing and all these studies? Both of you, I'd love your fragmented marketing.

[Robert]

The business schools are contributing to some of this in my opinion, having talked to a couple of them, you now have marketing. You know, you have the whole marketing 4Ps that are broken out into different curriculums and different degrees. And it's creating this vibration of what marketing is, which is kind of part of the problem. To be. To be honest. I think that it used to be you wanted to go to Procter and Gamble and become a marketer and now there's just a lot of competition for that marketing brain power into other tech companies and so forth. Listen, I think Nick is nailing this thing on the head is that there is a two way opportunity here on the marketer side to be a business person number one and on the CEO side to understand that marketing is a proven lever of growth. Maybe it's not as sexy as it sometimes used to be or whatever, but it works, man. Advertising and communications and engagement and those are strategies that drive roi. And you've got to have the accountability as a C level officer to make that happen and understand that it's at your disposal and make sure that you pull the levers just like you would with your CFO on cash management or your HR on talent. You know, you're not learning how to code Python with your cio. I don't think so.

[Nick]

One Thing I go ahead next out there on my, my Internet connection. So I'm back. And you know, who do we need in this to drive this function? Right? You need students, faculty, curriculum, really professionals kind of coming through the pipeline that are tech savvy, analytically driven, financial, strong financial acumen, behavioral science, mathematicians, neuroscience, algorithm writers. Right? That's marketing. And you know who doesn't consider themselves at all in marketing is those students and those, and those faculty, they don't, they don't look at this as a viable option for their career. We don't have, we have not demonstrated that as an industry there's a viable yet rewarding career path in, in these areas. And often they kind of come in and then they don't have room for advancement and so they leave. None of the CMOs have done the jobs of the people that we need in the industry. And that's also, it's a great thing because it continues to evolve, it's innovative, but it's also, you know, at best a suboptimal condition that you're creating for real talent development in a pipeline.

Well, I just want to call out that both of you threw the B schools out here for not actually doing a very good job in marketing. And I, I concur with this. I, I, what I would say is a lot of the B schools are teaching tactics, not leadership and strategy and not at, and they busted it up into tactics. So what that, what should the B schools be doing that they're not?

And we have a bunch of professors. I look at that also of our problems as an industry. We are not in the classrooms in influencing curriculum nearly enough as we should be. Other professions and industries go in and they're pulling out candidates and job applicants dozens at a time, not hundreds at a time. They're spending weeks on campus. They are getting involved in the development of curriculum in a meaningful way. They're investing in the next leaders of the organizations. Marketing is, is all over the place. We depend on people to kind of come through the agency system to kind of, I don't know, pay their dues, whatever, whatever. We don't have an actual infrastructure for a pipeline that is meaningful. We're trying to develop that with the ANA and our membership and we've made some, some great strides in doing that, but not nearly enough as we need to, especially in the, in the business school realm.

So this is, I'm going to use this to call I've had a bunch of professors on the show or we've had a bunch of professors we're going to. I would love to get a business school dean on the show. So if anybody's listening and wants to come on.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Nick]

I also want to say where this all is also showing up from a lot of our listeners is there's often a really unclear remit that gets attached to marketing. Even when you're going. When you look at the job specs or you talk to people on the lead team when you're interviewing, how do you even. Let's just talk about the whole interview process. And then when you get in the job, you have this remit that is often, you know, unrealistic or wrong. Even when you're going through the interview. Tell us about this. And then how you should manage it in the interview process. And then when you start.

[Robert]

I mean, that's another episode, I feel like, of a conversation.

[Nick]

We can do more episodes. But let's top line it here.

[Robert]

I mean, listen, I think that it comes back to like we were saying in the beginning, I think you need clear alignment in what the remit is to drive the business outcomes that matter. Not doing cool social or cool creative or a new website or whatever it is, because that's on the list, but really understanding how it drives the outcomes the business is going to materially have impact on. And I think that's the mind shift that all of marketing has to take is we have to reimagine all of these things and we have to be systematic and thinking about how we connect the dots to move that needle. Because we are. I mean, listen, the way I'm actually even going to say it is we're hurting our customers. Right. Like, we still operate as an org chart in many kinds. Like in many companies that I see, you have different product divisions that have different messaging, you have different websites, you have different experiences. It's 2024, folks. We have amazing technology out there, personalization, and we're just scratching the surface of how we're impacting them.

[Nick]

I don't want to let this point go on unmentioned because I think it's a really deep point, which is somebody is representing a function like digital or performance marketing or brand, but no one's representing the customer. So the customer experience and the entire management of the customer is falling through the cracks while each function optimizes its thing. Is that right? Is that what you're saying?

[Robert]

100%. I mean, one of my favorite things that I say a lot, which babble about a lot of things, but I actually think it's in the job description of The CMO to remove customer friction across the organization. It is our jobs to make it easier to do business with us. It's our jobs to optimize how the customer wants to buy. It's our job to be where the customer wants to be, not where we want them to be. I remember I worked at a big bank and we were debating that social media was a place that customers actually wanted to learn about products and might ask service questions. And you had a set of people that thought I was crazy, that that was going to actually be a thing. Well, here we are now. And that's the point, is that this is. We've got to have advocates at that table, at that C suite table to move organizations to do what's right for their customer.

[Nick]

Nick, thoughts on that? Because you're talking to a ton of people, you're talking to marketers. Any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I would say that it's a. Well, first, let me just kind of circle back to that job. Right. If you, if you, you know, Robert mentioned banks, you take the top three banks that are really in my area here in, in, in New York, and I could look out the window and, and, and see them. If you look at any job in the C suite, the cfo, the head of retail, the head of business banking operations, the CEOs, you could basically take their resumes and just swap logos on different backgrounds that they have. Right? But really, if you take the CMO's role, first of all, one of them has like 30 different CMOs in different areas. The other one has the CMO reporting into like an operations vice chair or this or that. And the other one has a CMO reporting into the CEO with a totally different background than any of the other CMOs had. So why is everything the same product set the same everything else but the CMO role and the marketing function that follows is wildly different. And in some cases that's kind of a cool thing, a competitive advantage maybe. But in most cases, really it is at best a suboptimal use of that function and is really a reflection of the lack of understanding in a consistent way of that function.

I want to talk about how you. How what you do to start fixing that. But I want to give that. I love the banking examples because the same bank that has, say, my mortgage and my credit card, and it's minting money off of me because of my, my mortgage and my credit card, they will send me a letter or an email saying, don't you want to pay 10 bucks a month for privacy Protection or whatever the hell it is. And I'm like, don't you want to just give that to me for free given all the money you're making off of me? But they don't because they see me as a set of transactions. But how do I go about changing that to start the shift you guys are talking about?

[Robert]

I mean, I know we kind of keep saying it in the same kind of way, which is the marketing function needs to move from perceived pretty pictures to customer insights. Right. Like we've got to be able to talk the customer into the business language that our C suite counterparts will understand and be able to activate. That's the fundamental shift. And I think that's no small task, but it is significant. And I think again, when we see it done right. And Nick and I interviewed a bunch of people that are amazing CMOs in some of the leading brands, as you would expect. But even some that may not have the notoriety that some of them have, they are extremely connected with their CEO. Inversely, we interviewed people that talk to their CEO once a quarter.

[Nick]

But, but let me, let me flip this to and say, so if you're interviewing and you want to be a successful CMO or you're looking at jobs and you see that the company is run by your type 3 CEO who's a non believer, should you not take that job because you are doomed to fail and they're going to be comparing their results to the companies that already have a CMO in there and not taking any responsibility for the fact that maybe they or their structure are at fault. If you're interviewing for a job and you see we'll just call it type C3 CEO, should you shy away from that job thinking this is a doom.

[Robert]

Loop for me, Listen, I mean it's not our place to tell anybody to take or not take a job, but.

[Nick]

On this show it is.

[Robert]

I know what you're saying, I know what you're trying to do.

[Nick]

I don't think they're naive when they take those jobs. And usually, usually those positions are accompanied by a big check that seems to make a make sense at the time when, when, when they're taking the job or like a lot of CMOs of a type personalities, they're up for the challenge and they think they're the ones who could actually make.

Yeah, you're the one that's going to break the chain of, you know when they say exactly three agencies and three CMOs. But you, you are now going to fix this.

Yeah. And I think the process of Interviewing is actually a pretty appropriate process to, or at least approach to kind of take with that job. Not just in the interview process, but really have, that you're making sure that you are aligned with the stakeholders that you've got clear. You know, here's what I could bring to you. You know, how do I connect and really connect what I'm doing to make sure it's, it's delivering value to you and how can I, and how can I continue to help you? That should not be just a, you know, an interview and then you don't ask those questions again. That's part of the job is actually just continuing that because those expectations are going to evolve. They could just change. They could have been wrong in the outset. Right. For the better or for worse. And so it's a constant recalibration. But that communication and that, that process of involving them in to inform your decisions and then demonstrating to them. This is what happened when we, when we said we were going to do what we're going to do. That's got to be constant and that, that, that is part of the job of those who are winning.

I agree and I think you probably have in the interview, you probably have the most power to set the stage that you're going to have and you should do that. I want to flip the discussion over to, you know, something we, we touched on earlier. But given the power of growth and the belief that marketing can drive a lot of growth, why are there so few marketers on boards? This is. Either one of you guys can take this one?

[Robert]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm going to go back and say that it's, it's that they're not perceived as business people. They're not perceived as that general manager, they're not driving and viewed as the strategy growth engine. They're viewed as execution. And, and I think that that's part of the remit. I mean there's a handful now that are starting to move up that ranks and are becoming CEOs and obviously more prevalent in CPG. But there's definitely more work to do to get us more seats at the table. I think we, I've said this over and over again, is that every company's board should have a marketing customer centric board member that is that pillar of the stack. Right. Just as anything else that you would have, that's important.

[Nick]

I've been on a couple boards and that's, that's how they've used me. But I also think the, the, the companies that really value the Customer experience should be out there looking for CMOs that actually get it and can manage the whole show versus saying I need someone from performance marketing or someone from this company. Nick, any anything to add to that?

Yeah, no, I mean I think, you know, the leader, the leading agencies of, you know, search and so forth are actually starting to turn their focus to this. You've got, you know, the Greg Welsh is at Spencer Stewart and and others are certainly following. But I think if you look at though that small percentage of CMOs or former CMOs or anyone with marketing experience who is on the board, I have to really expect that their contributions to that, to those board discussions and decisions are as meaningful if not more so than anyone else's. And to me it's just probably a lack of maturity and who to look for on the boards and just a lack of familiarity. But I think now if you look at where the position is and the importance of the position in terms of know how it can impact the business, you know, I, I think it's just a matter of time before that starts to get, you know, more critical mass.

All right, Finger, I said one thing.

[Robert]

Before that that struck a chord, that you know, that the CMOs are taking these jobs with the non believers. I think the boards have to be far more involved in helping the CEOs understand the archetype of CMO that they're hiring and what they're setting them up for success. And I think this comes down to really taking a look at what do these companies need and want and understanding the skills and how they're setting up their executives to be successful. And I actually talked to a lot of CMOs who've turned down jobs because of those non believers because they didn't feel like they were going to be set up for success. And I think boards need to be held accountable to that and understand that there's a real, you know, perception there and a reality that's impacting their business and that they have to help their CEOs figure out what they need and how they could use the lever to drive the right business strategy and growth.

[Nick]

I agree with that. Fingers crossed that that that happens more. We're, we're running towards the end of the show so there's a two part question and I've never done this with two people before so it's practical advice and, or funniest story you can share with our listeners on the air. You each have to take one or both of those. But so fire away. Nick, we'll start with you.

Oh, I Don't know if it's the, the funniest, but it certainly is the most eye openening situation in a bit where we had, I think it was like 90 something CMOS in the room and we asked them. No, it was 120 CMOs in the room. And we asked them what is the most important KPI. And we got, I think it was 98 different answers. So out of 120 CMOs, 98 different answers on the KPI. And then I went out and actually gave a presentation on the marketing to a group of CEOs and I showed them the word cloud that came out of it and they were pissed. They were like what? Because we, we asked them and like Robert said at the, at the top of this they have like maybe three that the 30 of them, you know, came up with and they were like, they saw some of them and they were just reacting as like, you know, what the heck. And it was really again a reflection of sort of, you know, where marketing is because all those things that were on the word cloud were actually relevant to marketing. But when you, when you, when you're skinning it down, the, the variability there and the, the fact that no one really landed the, the things that are most important to the business was, was, was pretty startling and, and, and pissed off a lot of CEOs. So that's, that's kind of what we're dealing with.

Got it. Robert.

[Robert]

Man, you know, I, I think that I come back to the, and as a marketer to hear the, and see the data and the disconnect that we have. And you know, we all believe that we want to do the right things and that we're, we're making the best possible decisions. I think my single biggest advice is go lock yourself in a room with your CEO and C suite and make sure you're aligned to really peel the onion of what that is. Not just hey, here's our budget and here's our campaigns that we're going to run, but really, really connect the dots. I know it's, it's a scary proposition and I think a lot of the people that we interviewed were honestly just kind of doing what they did last year and afraid to push the, push the rock. And I think you've got to really be able to make sure that you build a partnership with your CEO and C suite. You know, one of the things we talk about is go partner with the CFO and everybody dreads the call from finance. But man, if they're on your team and they understand the measurement and they understand how you're doing it. They're advocates become advocates for you. So I think I would continue to advise every CMO to spend as much time as you can with your C suite partners and and make sure your team members together attacking the business strategy.

[Nick]

I completely agree with that. And a voice had when I've been CMO or CRO had a marketing CFO in my group because you don't want it like that. Closeness is super important and I think that is a really good way to end the show. Thank you Nick and thank you Robert. And thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. Look for our other shows on Spotify, Apple and YouTube which include chaos in the marketplace, the general generational shift in media, a top executive search perspective on marketing. Is the CMO job headed for extinction? And why is B2B marketing so bad and what to do about it? If you are enjoying CMO Confidential, please like share and subscribe. Hey all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential Foreign.

[Robert]

This show is brought to you by Props, our title sponsor. Props is a performance driven content platform. They combine the attraction of creator content with the results of paid media. Instead of focusing on impressions or posts, Props takes responsibility for leads and customers. Check them out at Props Copy.