CMO Confidential Podcast: Michael Treff, CEO of Code and Theory

Episode: B2B Marketing - The Year in Review & the Year Ahead
Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Mike Linton
Guest: Michael Treff

Episode Overview

This milestone 150th episode of CMO Confidential brings back Michael Treff, CEO of Code and Theory and the show’s “B2B Correspondent,” to dissect the evolving landscape of B2B marketing. Host Mike Linton and Treff discuss how B2B companies are reallocating investments, the ongoing revolution in customer journeys, the harsh new focus on measurable ROI, and the impact of AI on marketing infrastructure and culture. Expect a lively, candid tour through what’s changed, what’s working, and what both marketers and agencies need to have on their roadmap for 2026 and beyond.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of B2B Marketing and Shifting Investment Priorities

• Tale of Two Cities:
  "You see so much investment and so much infrastructure going into the B2B space...at the same time, there’s a squeezing of some of the legacy platforms and legacy spending." (Michael Treff, 03:27)
• Companies are prioritizing spend on martech, content supply software, and broader tech-stack reinvention, versus traditional marketing or sponsorships.
• There’s an explicit shift from OPEX (operational) to CAPEX (capital) budgets, reflecting heightened ROI accountability for every dollar spent.

2. Customer Journey & Relationship Disintermediation

• The buyer journey has fundamentally changed:
  "People are using things like Perplexity or ChatGPT or other platforms to collect the information, do the hard work...so when you're finally at the end of the cycle, it's like all that work is already done.” (MT, 06:26)
• Classic relationship nurturing, event marketing, and lead-gen metrics like MQLs are outmoded—the focus has moved to enabling buyers to prove ROI within their organizations.

3. What Adds Value for B2B Buyers Today?

• The critical new question:
  "If I'm a B2B marketer, I'm stepping back and I'm saying, huh, where can I add value in this relationship, in this chain?" (MT, 08:52)
• Sales enablement, business-case modeling, and consultative integration now matter more than pushing specs or content—success is about arming the buyer to win internal approvals.

4. Who Has the Advantage: Startups or Legacy Players?

• Startups excel at laser-focused, agile solutions to precise problems—but legacy companies have unique strength in orchestrating holistic system implementations.
• "If I'm a B2B buyer, this is like the heyday. I can impact the products and the services more than I ever could. I can hold accountability to the ROI." (MT, 14:14)

5. AI’s Impact: From Hype to Accountability

• First wave of AI: Cost-saving automation, volume gains, more output with same resources.
• Next wave: Proving AI’s contribution to business growth, not just efficiency.
• "So many people spent all this money on automation and AI and...no one has been able to point to AI and say it's unlocked growth for me in xyz, unless they’re the AI software company." (MT, 16:47)
• Growing client pressure on agencies to deliver more, often for the same or reduced fees, by harnessing AI and automation.

6. Customer Experience (CX) & AI: Aspirational vs. Actual

• Data from Code and Theory’s new Wall Street Journal research:
  94% of executives say CX strategy drives success—but 93% admit their digital CX needs real help. (19:56–20:39)
• Real key indicators must correlate with business outcomes (repeat revenue, ARPU, ARR), not just marketing efficiency.
• "It's all really important to you, but none of you are happy with it.” (MT, 20:39)

7. Technology Interconnectivity & Having a Plan

• All infrastructure investments are interconnected—AI success can't be achieved from isolated one-off tools alone.
• "No shade, but like, what is your plan for your humans? Why don't we start with designing the company? How do we want our humans to be spending [their time]?" (MT, 21:15)
• Companies need an AI roadmap that addresses customer behavior, tech stack, and employee roles.

8. Budgeting & Growth Outlook for 2026

• Unprecedented uncertainty in budget planning; more time spent interrogating priorities, no consistent spending pattern across clients.
• Divergence between late-stage/legacy and growth-stage/disruptor companies:
  • *"Growth at all costs" attitude for the latter.
  • Internal efficiency and replatforming for the former.
• "We're seeing a divergence here...you're starting to sort of see that in budget planning for next year as well." (MT, 28:03)

9. Marketing Metrics: Dethroning MQLs

• The era of lead-centric metrics is ending.
• Marketers need to ask: Is personalized content actually driving business value, or just creating activity?
  "For most people, no one's asked the question, is more or better personalized content actually driving any value?" (MT, 30:09–31:48)
• Outcome-based, attributable Martech investments matter—can you tie the tooling to ultimate business results?

10. What to Know by End of 2026: Three Things

• "One, they should know what they want to do with their humans...Two, where they are on their AI maturity curve...Three, they should really be looking at the customers and the customer journeys and where the differences are in 2025 closing right now...versus 2027 and forward." (MT, 33:35)
• The rise of agentic browsers, AI-driven search, and the crumbling old funnel are game-changers for where and how transactions happen.

11. Predictions for 2026

• The iron grip of ROI measurement will get even tighter.
• Agencies must become far more consultative and explicitly prove the value of what they deliver.

12. Practical Advice: The Importance of Interrogation

• "Interrogate everything yourself. Most of the mistakes that I have made are because I didn't like thoroughly interrogate what was happening, why it was happening." (MT, 36:11)
• Always consider counter-arguments, invite dissent, and create a culture of discourse to avoid falling for the “shiny object.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the buyer’s new power:
  "If I'm the B2B buyer today, this is like where I've wanted to be." (MT, 14:14)

• On AI investments:
  "Nobody’s been able to point to AI and say it’s unlocked growth for me, unless they’re the AI software company. That is the bridge." (MT, 16:47)

• On measuring value:
  "You want real key indicators, like you want real things that corollari relate to the business. You don’t want indicators of efficient creative or marketing spend." (MT, 19:28)

• On planning:
  "Point solution tooling isn’t going to get you all the way there. So you need to step back and have a roadmap...and what is your plan for your humans?" (MT, 21:15, 21:54)

• On next year’s priorities:
  "If we don’t know by the end of next year where we are against those things, you’re probably not going to be in business for a long time." (MT, 34:58)

• On interrogating decisions:
  "Encourage a culture of conversation and discourse. And if you do that, you generally end up in the right place in a time of, like, very much uncertain navigation." (MT, 38:06)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:27 – Current state and investment shift in B2B
• 06:04 – The new B2B customer journey and need for ROI
• 10:51 – Software companies and the importance of implementation
• 12:49 – Startups vs. established players in B2B
• 14:44 – The B2B buyer’s new leverage
• 15:15 – AI’s impact and acceleration; Wave 1 (Efficiency) vs. Wave 2 (Growth)
• 18:40 – Measuring real customer experience and satisfaction
• 20:55 – Interconnectivity, AI roadmaps, and the human factor
• 25:51 – Budgeting for 2026: trends and uncertainty
• 29:27 – The decline of MQLs, rise of outcome-driven metrics
• 32:48 – Outcome-based personalization
• 33:22 – The three things to know by end of 2026
• 35:19 – Predictions for 2026: ROI focus intensifies
• 36:11 – Practical advice: Never stop interrogating the “why” and “how”

Actionable Takeaways for Marketers & Agencies

• Deeply challenge assumptions around ROI and personalization—measure what actually delivers business value.
• Invest time in developing a long-term AI and human resource plan, balanced with opportunistic application of new tools.
• Budgeting will require more nuanced, dual-track thinking than ever before; expect more scrutiny and more pressure for proof.
• Cultivate strong discourse and dissent in decision-making; avoid groupthink and shiny-object syndrome.

Host: Mike Linton
Guest: Michael Treff (CEO, Code and Theory)

Full episode available on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube. For further reading, check out Code and Theory’s recent Wall Street Journal study on AI and CX, referenced during the episode (19:56).