Peri Hansen | Leader, CMO Practice, Korn Ferry - Is Marketing Still Marketing?

Summary

CMO Confidential Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Peri Hansen | Leader, CMO Practice, Korn Ferry - Is Marketing Still Marketing?

Host: Mike Linton
Guest: Perry Hansen, Leader of the North American CMO Practice at Korn Ferry
Release Date: July 22, 2025
Network: I Hear Everything Podcast Network

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of CMO Confidential, host Mike Linton engages in a compelling conversation with Perry Hansen, a seasoned leader from Korn Ferry. The discussion centers around the evolving role of Chief Marketing Officers (CMOs) in today's dynamic business landscape, exploring whether traditional marketing still holds its ground or has transformed into something entirely different.

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Evolution of the CMO Role

Perry Hansen begins by highlighting the significant shifts in the CMO's responsibilities over the past decades. She emphasizes that modern CMOs are not just marketers but are pivotal innovators within their organizations.

Perry Hansen [02:10]:
"Three major findings: Be an expert in the use of sophisticated technology, contribute to strategy beyond the marketing function, and own the entire life cycle of the customer and all of its business outcomes."

Hansen elaborates on how CMOs today must integrate advanced technology, engage in enterprise-wide strategic planning, and manage comprehensive customer life cycles, marking a departure from the more narrowly defined roles of the past.

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Technology and Martech Mastery

A significant portion of the discussion delves into the necessity for CMOs to master marketing technology (MarTech). Hansen points out that technological proficiency is no longer optional but a core competency for driving business outcomes.

Perry Hansen [04:22]:
"Marketing's morphed completely... you're driving a lot of the strategy of the company from the chair and you're driving a lot of the change in the company."

Hansen underscores that CMOs must be adept at leveraging data and technology to stay ahead, noting that 75% of CMOs recognize the need to master MarTech to achieve their objectives—a statistic that has dramatically shifted over the past decade.

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CMO as a Strategic Leader and Change Agent

Moving beyond technology, Hansen discusses the expanded strategic role of CMOs. They are now seen as key contributors to overall enterprise strategy and as change agents capable of breaking down silos and fostering cross-functional collaboration.

Perry Hansen [07:06]:
"The more you master [tech], the more sophisticated the conversations, the stronger the partnerships with other functions."

This strategic influence positions CMOs as central figures in steering company-wide initiatives and adapting to ever-changing market conditions.

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Post-COVID Landscape and Market Adaptation

The conversation transitions to the lasting impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic on marketing practices. Hansen notes that behaviors and market patterns have permanently shifted, emphasizing the heightened importance of data in understanding and responding to these changes.

Perry Hansen [08:18]:
"All of our behaviors and patterns shifted... it re emphasizes the importance of data and understanding behavior through data."

CMOs must now navigate a landscape where consumer behavior is more volatile and data-driven insights are crucial for effective strategy formulation.

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Leadership and Organizational Design

Hansen explores the implications of these changes on leadership structures within organizations. She anticipates increased turnover for CMOs, driven by the need for leaders who can adeptly handle technological integration and strategic innovation.

Perry Hansen [09:19]:
"When companies go to the outside, they're looking to make a seismic shift... someone who's a proven change agent."

Hansen advises that successful CMOs today possess a diverse background, technological savviness, and the ability to drive substantial organizational change.

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Impact of AI and Future Leadership Pool

Addressing the rise of artificial intelligence, Hansen reflects on how AI is reshaping entry-level roles and the leadership pipeline. She emphasizes the enduring importance of strong leadership that adapts to technological advancements.

Perry Hansen [15:02]:
"There's no substitute for great leadership... they bring that leadership component, change agents, people who understand how to influence create change and opportunity."

Hansen is optimistic that while AI will automate many tasks, it will also create new opportunities for leaders who can harness technology to drive innovation and growth.

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Developing Future Leaders

The discussion shifts to strategies for cultivating the next generation of marketing leaders. Hansen advocates for fostering agility, digital savviness, and a change-oriented mindset among emerging talents.

Perry Hansen [19:18]:
"Definitely a change agent... digital disruptors who have led major turnarounds or phases of growth."

She recommends that companies seek leaders with diverse experiences and a proven track record of navigating complex changes, rather than those with linear career paths within a single organization.

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Importance of References and Leadership Assessment

Hansen highlights the critical role of thorough reference checks in the CMO hiring process, focusing on both technical competencies and interpersonal skills.

Perry Hansen [23:17]:
"We also want to understand leadership, how someone shows up, how they're regarded 360, how they've led and formed relationships and been successful in an organization."

She explains that Korn Ferry employs a meticulous approach to gathering references, often seeking additional contacts beyond those provided by candidates to ensure a comprehensive evaluation.

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Practical Advice for CMOs

Concluding the episode, Hansen offers practical advice for current and aspiring CMOs:

Perry Hansen [27:35]:
"CMOs don't necessarily think about their own brand... think about what matters most to you, how you package it and project it to get the things that you want professionally and maybe personally."

She encourages marketers to cultivate their personal brand with the same rigor they apply to their company's branding efforts, asserting that self-branding is essential for career advancement and professional recognition.

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Conclusion

This episode of CMO Confidential provides a comprehensive exploration of the evolving landscape for Chief Marketing Officers. Through Perry Hansen's expert insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the expanded responsibilities, the critical role of technology, and the essential leadership qualities required to excel in today’s complex business environment. The discussion serves as a valuable guide for both current CMOs seeking to adapt and aspiring leaders aiming to ascend to the highest levels of marketing leadership.

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Notable Quotes:

• Perry Hansen [02:10]:
  "Three major findings: Be an expert in the use of sophisticated technology, contribute to strategy beyond the marketing function, and own the entire life cycle of the customer and all of its business outcomes."

• Perry Hansen [07:06]:
  "The more you master [tech], the more sophisticated the conversations, the stronger the partnerships with other functions."

• Perry Hansen [15:02]:
  "There's no substitute for great leadership... they bring that leadership component, change agents, people who understand how to influence create change and opportunity."

• Perry Hansen [27:35]:
  "CMOs don't necessarily think about their own brand... think about what matters most to you, how you package it and project it to get the things that you want professionally and maybe personally."

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Key Takeaways:

1. Expanded Role of CMOs: Beyond traditional marketing, CMOs are now central to enterprise-wide strategy and innovation.
2. Technological Proficiency: Mastery of MarTech is essential for modern CMOs to drive business outcomes.
3. Strategic Leadership: CMOs act as change agents, fostering cross-functional collaboration and organizational agility.
4. Data-Driven Decision Making: Post-COVID market shifts emphasize the critical role of data in understanding and responding to consumer behavior.
5. Leadership Development: Future marketing leaders must possess agility, digital savviness, and a proven ability to navigate and drive change.
6. Personal Branding: CMOs should actively develop and project their personal brand to enhance professional growth and effectiveness.

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This summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from the episode, providing a clear and comprehensive overview for those who haven't tuned in. For a deeper dive into the topics, listeners are encouraged to subscribe and explore more episodes of CMO Confidential on platforms like Spotify, Apple, and YouTube.

Transcript

[Mike Linton]

The CMO Confidential Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice then visit iheareverything.com welcome to CMO Confidential.

[Perry Hansen]

The podcast that takes you inside the drama, decisions and choices that go with being the Head of Marketing. Hosted by five time CMO Mike Linton.

[Mike Linton]

Welcome marketers, advertisers and those who love them to Chief Marketing Officer Confidential. CMO Confidential is a program that takes you inside the drama, the decisions and the politics that go with being the Head of marketing at any company in what is one of the most scrutinized jobs in the executive suite. I'm Mike Linton, the former Chief Marketing Officer of Best Buy, ebay, Farmers Insurance and Ancestry.com here today with my guest Perry Hansen. Today's topic is Marketing Still Marketing Anymore? Dramatic Evolution in the C Suite Now. Perry has been with Korn ferry for over 25 years and is currently leading the North American CMO practice. She's also the sector leader for consumer products. She has a long business card is my guest. She's also involved in Corn's advisory business as well as board level searches and completes approximately 25 to 30 searches a year. So a good person to know. Full disclosure, I've known Perry for a number of years and she placed me in a board position several years ago. This is her second time on the show. Welcome Perry.

[Perry Hansen]

Thank you Mike. Always an honor and a pleasure to spend time with you.

[Mike Linton]

Great to have you back. Let's start with the article that triggered this show and you wrote that CMOs were becoming the new vanguards of innovation. Give us the cliff notes on this missive you wrote.

[Perry Hansen]

Happy to do so and thank you for the acknowledgement. So I and a couple of fantastic colleagues wanted to take a look at what's changing in the function and how does that inform one's career and opportunities and the reasons to stay in the seat of a cmo. We all know that's increasingly challenging, but when you look at the breadth of influence that a CMO has today, it also is incredibly rewarding and it's different. So three major findings Be an expert in the use of sophisticated technology Contribute to strategy beyond the marketing function Thinking about strategy at an enterprise level or through an enterprise lens, and then owning the entire life cycle of the customer and all of its business outcomes are three really important opportunities and new challenges for CMOs. Now how do you get there. We studied the rise of the data driven cmo. We looked at the integration of technology and marketing. Of course, 75% of CMOs say they need to master martech to achieve business outcomes. We wouldn't have seen a stat like that 10 years ago. We looked at the CMO as the strategist again, beyond marketing strategy, enterprise strategy, the CMO is the change agent, the real leadership component of being a cmo. Breaking down silos, developing teams, team development, the hottest topic today when it comes to mandates for CMOs. And then we looked at the focus on the customer experience. These are all great opportunities for CMOs to distinguish and grow.

[Mike Linton]

And in your mind, this is a huge evolution from if we go back even 20 or 30 years ago for CMOs where basically you were kind of just doing the marketing in your mind. Marketing's morphed completely into, I won't put words in your mouth, but I'm looking at this thing and you're kind of driving a lot of the strategy of the company from the chair and you're driving a lot of the change in the company. And you have to know a lot of stuff to make that work, is that right?

[Perry Hansen]

You do have to know a lot of stuff to make that work. And that's what I think is, is so different and so powerful about this great career platform. So when you think about what changed, you're absolutely right. The conversation is so different than how we thought about CMO talent 15, 20 years ago. Much of that driven by Digital Transformation. And CMOs were on the forefront of that. Whether it was launching an e commerce site, a digital product, or helping a traditional retailer think about an omnichannel strategy. CMOs had those opportunities to contribute boldly, broadly link arms with CIOs and CTOs. And therein began the transformation, the breadth of influence and, and the need to master some areas that weren't as relevant a couple of decades.

[Mike Linton]

Before I go, before I dig into a couple of these topics a little bit, I want to say this evolution, though, it's not universal, it must be like fits and starts all over the place, right? Where, where are you seeing it? The evolution, the dramatic evolution the most, and what industries or other things are.

[Perry Hansen]

Are more laggards, I would say tech leads. When you think about the breadth and the positioning of a CMO today, whether that's again, you know, working hand in glove with commercial leadership to develop customer strategies, or whether it's linking arms with a CTO to focus on product and pricing that matters most to the end User. We're seeing a tremendous opportunity and big shifts in terms of the power and influence of tech. CMOs. Who's lagging? I don't know that anyone's lagging, but I will say we're actually seeing opportunities across the board in industry, you know, consumer. Of course, marketing's always led. Marketing has always had a seat at the table. But what a marketer does, how they build and develop teams and the breadth of expertise that they have to have. Again, to. Our conversation is just so different today.

[Mike Linton]

Let's drill down into the tech thing, which is the marketer now at the forefront of tech, which is something you wouldn't have said before. Digital, certainly. And this is, you know, in your previous show, you talked about the CMO as connective tissue for the company, connecting everything together. Tell me about this tech. How do you build your tech creds? And, you know, what's going to be required for people that want to be CMOs on the tech front as they're. They're growing up right now.

[Perry Hansen]

So it's interesting you, you reference the connective tissue analogy or symbol. I think about mastering tech, building the muscle that fuels the connective tissue. And in so many ways, my knowledge is power, right?

[Mike Linton]

Yeah.

[Perry Hansen]

The more you master, the more sophisticated the conversations, the stronger the partnerships with other functions. And we see that when it comes to CMOs and CTOs. So what does it take? You've got to be a constant learner. You have to be thirsty for knowledge. And that cycle never stops because today, more so than ever since CMOs are tasked with looking around corners. What's the next set of tools? Whether it's AI or whatever's after AI, much of that falls on the CMO today. So really being hungry for knowledge, being able to be an evangelist for new opportunities, new strategies, shifting budgets and doing that, ideally all with very, very strong connections to sales teams and tech.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah. So I 100% back the tech thing, which is if you are not, if you can't converse in that, I mean, you're not going to get maybe a lot done in, particularly in a lot of companies. You know, one of the other things you said when we talked about the show was you don't think anything returned to normal after Covid. Tell us what you meant by that or what you mean by that.

[Perry Hansen]

What we mean by that is that all of our behaviors and patterns shifted. Whether that meant hybrid work, how we purchase, how we embrace deliveries, the type of technology that can fuel our lives from home or the office, it all changed. There were so many learning opportunities and shift in spending patterns. So what does that mean for Marketeer? It re emphasizes the importance of data and understanding behavior through data, being able to accrue that data, measure it and then fuel your product and pricing strategies because the world has shifted well and.

[Mike Linton]

Also there's nothing that's stable and it doesn't appear that anything is staying stable. So I think this is a really good thing. And as a follow on to that, you said, hey Mike, this is probably going to cause more CMO and CEO turnover. Tell us what you're thinking there.

[Perry Hansen]

So I'll tell you. When it comes to CMOs, we're seeing a strong desire for either meaningful succession. So thinking about what your next generation of CMO looks like and development within or companies that have lagged, who just haven't made the investment in technology, who are seeing the competition, think more boldly, act faster. Sometimes there's that shift in the CMO seat. So it's rare that we're seeing a mandate to find a CMO who brings the same skills and experiences as the last one. When companies go to the outside, they're looking to make a seismic shift and that's typically a different industry background, a different emphasis on Martech or someone who's a proven change agent. They have mastered economic cycles, they understand shifts in consumer behavior as they can build and continue to develop teams that have high impact and they're agile to your point, they have the ability to anticipate what the next opportunity or challenge is.

[Mike Linton]

So beneath that, that little like answer, I'm going to say so the traditional role is non existent actually going forward. And so you know, we've had a bunch of people on the show that say hey gosh, that name CMO isn't even right anymore in the tit else like this and that and everything else. And, and we can agree the traditional role is kind of like in the rearview mirror. What's in the, what's. What are you looking at through the windshield though? What's the role going to be? What's replacing that traditional role? When you look at job specs and you're writing them for people, sure.

[Perry Hansen]

Definitely greater impact and influence on the sales function. And sometimes we see in tech, sometimes sales or component of sales is tucked under the cmo. Definitely strong linkage to technology. And really, you know, we're seeing clients want measurable impact when it comes to big tech investments in marketing. So what did you do? How did you measure your success? How did that fuel product innovation? How did that influence enterprise Strategy, all of those things are being measured much more closely and carefully.

[Mike Linton]

That makes a huge amount of sense and people should love that because if you do something and you produce results, there's your story. And, and the other thing that you said was going on is a huge amount of companies want to discuss or design and structure. Tell us what that even means. Like, like, because you know, everyone argues about structure and then you have this. But companies coming to you to talk about structure, what's behind all that?

[Perry Hansen]

Yeah, I don't even think that it's an argument anymore. I think there's just a lot of confusion about it. Right. Oftentimes we're asked before we start a search, do we have the right structure? Do we have the right people in the right seats? What do other companies like ours look like and look for when it comes to CMO talent? So a lot of, I would say not uncertainty, but I think an openness to the new and different. And oftentimes that's mandate number one for a new CMO coming in the door. Do we have the right structure? Do we have the right people? Have we made ample investment in team development? Because as I say so frequently, you can't change out your marketing team every couple of years. As the world changes, consumers change, tech changes. You've got to continue to invest and inspire those people to be curious, learn more, change and adapt. Huge opportunity in terms of how you think about organizational design. And then of course, as I mentioned, the linkage to sales and tech.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah. So two follow ups to that. How do companies come to the conclusion that they need help in an org design? And like what is it that's they're looking at the business or they're looking around and, and then when they, when they ask you that question, do they have a lot of pre, like a bunch of thinking in it or are they just like we got a bunch of problems and we're not sure how to solve it and we're starting with org like how does this even come about?

[Perry Hansen]

Yeah, the answer varies depending on the organization. So sometimes it's simple curiosity. Hey, we haven't changed our structure in 10 years. How could we possibly be relevant now? We might have changed the titles and maybe people do work a little bit differently, but we fundamentally have the same structure that we had 10 years ago. Is that right? What are other companies doing? Sometimes it's way. We're way behind. We underinvested in our digital strategy. We're not a true omnichannel business or brand. We've seen Slower growth? How are we going to expand our reach? Oh, by the way, we're thinking about global expansion. Is E commerce going to reside in country? Is it centralized? All of those things can come into play when it comes to org design.

[Mike Linton]

Oh, that is super interesting. So when, when I look at all this going on and I look at AI and I look at everything else, I feel like there's almost a lost generation of leaders that are going to be created with AI rushing up and a bunch of entry level jobs disappearing and a bunch of people at the top that maybe are not native to a all this technology. I think, are we going to have the same amount of leadership pool in the business community, just countrywide or worldwide, that we used to have? And are we minting the same type of leaders or are we going to have a leadership drought as we go forward?

[Perry Hansen]

I think we'd be silly to assume life will look the same when it comes to, you know, the workplace and org design and org structure with AI. And yet personally, I believe there's no substitution for great leadership as long as your leaders are agile and hungry for knowledge and adaptive and are embracing AI. Now you can look at AI as an existential threat. And there are plenty of people who do and assume that they're going to be looking at an earlier retirement. Their skill set becomes redundant. But plenty of people are leaning into it. They're at least curious and they understand, hey, my boss expects me to master this, or my client expects that I'm embracing AI to be better, smarter, faster. Those are real opportunities. But there's no substitute for great leaders who have experienced economic cycles, who understand that the world is going to continue to change and they bring that leadership component, change agents, people who understand how to influence create change and opportunity that comes with time and seasoning.

[Mike Linton]

So let me flip this to the other side though. I take out a whole bunch of entry level jobs, maybe in, in at agencies, at media analytics, law firms, etc. And I'm taking all these people out of the mix because AI is going to do that work and it's going to do great work and it already is in a lot of places. That leadership training you get in your first job or your second job where you can look up and see those great leaders you were just talking about. If you don't have that job, how do you get the leadership training that people have been getting for years by doing that basic work at the bottom of the pyramid?

[Perry Hansen]

I think the basic work will continue to be there, but what it is and how it develops, young talent will shift and change. And I think most of us and the generations that follow us are going to have to think about what do we do well, what differentiates us and how do we strengthen that muscle so that AI isn't an automatic replacement. Now that's not an easy thing to solve for, but it does mean that we're all going to continue to have to think about developing the next skill set or leaning into your superpowers and investing in those things that you do well that can't be replaced by a bot.

[Mike Linton]

So there's, there's. Yes, and a bunch of our guests have talked about, and I believe this, you still will need creativity, you still will need the human touch. And in the end I will level this playing field for a lot of basic stuff. So, so you have to really think about how you're going to play and, and I think that will be really interesting, particularly given the team you want to structure and then how you train your folks. How should today's leaders prepare just on this people development front for what's coming? I mean like, give us some specifics you recommend to clients.

[Perry Hansen]

So we again look for the agile leader, somebody who can anticipate change and then begin to share the opportunities associated with that change with their teams.

[Mike Linton]

And when you do, when you do these, when you say like agile, could you also say, here's how I interview for that when I'm sourcing candidates. So agile is the first one, like what do you ask?

[Perry Hansen]

So we look first we look for, you know, it starts with the resume. Right. So we're typically looking for people who've made significant pivots in career and then we start to measure the impact and success of that. I mean that's really what demonstrates agility. We also have a proprietary assessment tool that helps us measure that in really important ways. But I think much of it is at least at first identified in career choices, novel, difficult turnaround, and then the decisions made thereafter. Yeah, so it's, it's that differentiated resume. It's, it's simply not the linear career path that was just fine and acceptable 10 to 15 years ago. Yeah, those different experiences can be telling.

[Mike Linton]

Got it. So, so one thing is agility. What are the other things that I'm, I'm looking for in preparing for my leadership stuff?

[Perry Hansen]

Definitely a change agent. And you know, whether that's someone who's been digitally disruptive or helped a company through a major turnaround or much needed phase of growth, people who've had series of experiences and been on the leading edge of change, they prove their ability to influence, to team. They tend to be humble and they're really smart and curious.

[Mike Linton]

And is there, there's so agility, change agent, are there any more that you really are pressing on?

[Perry Hansen]

Of course, being digitally savvy in all things. And I think that's industry agnostic. People just have to be leaning into tech and it has to be comfortable and natural.

[Mike Linton]

And does this mean if you stay at one company a long time and you don't actually step out, even if you're rising up at a just a good decent pace, that you are disadvantaged if you don't move?

[Perry Hansen]

I don't think that's the case for everybody. Now, of course you're asking someone who's been with one firm.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah, I'm just saying 26 years.

[Perry Hansen]

But. But when it comes to my day job, I think most people believe that after six to eight years, change is healthy. Either there's a new career platform that offers new opportunities for leadership or growth. It doesn't mean that staying with one organization is a bad thing or sets you back as long as that organization is evolving. And so I'll just speak personally, that's the reason I've stayed with my firm. We've changed dramatically since I started as a senior associate way back when. And that's fueled my knowledge, my leadership career opportunities. But the majority of people, particularly marketeers, are looking to do something new and different. And importantly, those who just love what they do, like big problems and they like to solve them and they like to measure their impact. And that can come from a series of different career choices along the way.

[Mike Linton]

And if I read between the lines here, I'm saying if you had a choice for candidates, you would have somebody that had moved some and worked for different types of people versus someone that had been in one place and worked for the same person or set of people for a long time because they would be more stress test. Is that fair?

[Perry Hansen]

I would say that most of our clients are looking for a variety of experiences now. They also want to avoid the job hopper who can't speak to impact and success, you know, in meaningful ways. But it is the background of the single employer can be a little intimidating and create some uncertainty for someone. For a client who's looking to, you know, have somebody make a fast impact, you know, form quick relationships, they can be a little bit more conservative when it comes to pulling somebody out of a single ecosystem.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah, I think that's, that's probably, that's what I would say too. Which was when. When I was interviewing for stuff. You know, you're, you, you want to, you want someone that has had some change, so, you know, they're not going to, you're not going to have to break them in on their first real culture change.

[Perry Hansen]

Right. And some failure. So I debriefed with a client today who met a candidate yesterday. And the candidate in chapter two of career first move out of a big company stumbled and fumbled and overestimated their ability to influence the CEO and board when it came to marketing spend and strategy. Not a great success story, but boy, that person's ability to tell the story with conviction and then talk about how it informed his next choice and the impact that he was able to have because of that failure. Really powerful stuff.

[Mike Linton]

Yeah. If you haven't taken any failures, you haven't probably taken any risk, which means you're not going to make any good changes.

[Perry Hansen]

So.

[Mike Linton]

Interesting. You also said in your mind, references are going to continue to matter more than ever in the search process. Tell us what you mean by that.

[Perry Hansen]

Sure. Well, third party verification, always helpful in understanding, you know, the, the full, all the dimensions of a candidate. But in the case of marketeers, CEOs and boards want to understand impact. What was the business result? What was the talent strategy? How did it increase revenue and ebitda? So those references really can get technical and quantitative pretty quickly. I think the measurement component, not to mention, we always want to understand leadership, how someone shows up, how they're regarded360, how they've led and formed relationships and been successful in an organization. So both dimensions. But increasingly the measurement side matters a lot for CMOs.

[Mike Linton]

And then there's the references the candidate gives you and the references you get from. From the wild. How do you, how do search firms go about getting the right set of references?

[Perry Hansen]

So knowing that confidentiality is so key for anyone who's embarking in the search process, we're really careful and surgical about that. So, yes, we will absolutely look at the references that a candidate has given us. But then we'll look for references that might be additive and complimentary. We'll ask, we'll oftentimes go back and say, great, love to talk to these four people, but here are three other people we think would be incredibly helpful. Can you help us? So we typically don't rely on the list given to us by a candidate. We'll ask for more and we'll ask the references, hey, who else should we be talking to?

[Mike Linton]

Yeah. And then when you, how do you know when you have enough references or that you have this right and you have a good bead on the leadership style of the candidate. Is this just 25 years of practice or what is.

[Perry Hansen]

Has nothing to do with gut or experience for us. It's so finely tuned and tailored to the client's needs and expectations. So referencing can take time. Sometimes we just continue the process until a client feels like they have enough data. And by the way, we love it when a client says, hey, I'd like to speak to a couple of those references myself. We open those doors. So it's really situationally specific, but it is time consuming and arguably the most important value add component of our process.

[Mike Linton]

And Perry, how often do you turn in the reference, like VL Doc or whatever you do, and then you. I'm sure you have a discussion on it and the client says, I want you to go back and get some more.

[Perry Hansen]

Oh, it happens. I would say 25 to 30% of the time.

[Mike Linton]

That's a lot. And is it almost always in the same place? Like this leadership change agent thing versus. I don't think they can. They can buy search words correctly.

[Perry Hansen]

It's typically on the leadership side of things. Yeah. And it can range from anywhere from, you know, what does their team go deeper with the team? What do they really think about this person as a leader? Or hey, can you talk to a board member? We want to see how this person really showed up in the boardroom. Impact, preparedness, communication skills. Yeah, it can vary, but typically it's on the interpersonal side of the equation.

[Mike Linton]

Okay, that is super interesting. When you get that question, does that mean the candidate is not on firm footing, or does it mean that the client might be. I'm not sure about the candidate and I need more. Or are they really just looking for one more piece of data?

[Perry Hansen]

I think it's typically just prudent risk management. I like a curious client, and I like a client that says, you know what? I'd like a little bit more data. It means that they care, number one, and they care about the candidate being successful. They want enough data to ensure this is the right hire. We've got the right platform for that person to be successful. So think about it as. As risk.

[Mike Linton]

I think that's great. And also, like, it's a big error if you hire the wrong person and then you're. You're two years delayed by the time you get the right person in there. And that. That is a forever time.

[Perry Hansen]

Yeah. So compared to a situation like that, the referencing is, you know, it's not terribly time consuming when you can think about the setbacks of not doing enough.

[Mike Linton]

All right, so that gets us to our traditional last question, which, you know, as a veteran, funniest story or piece of practical advice we haven't discussed yet. You can take one or both of those, but you must take at least one.

[Perry Hansen]

I will take practical advice. How about that? All right, so I've been thinking lately, CMOs don't necessarily think about their own brand. So, for example, if you ask 10 CEOs, 10 CEOs, what's your brand? Nine out of 10 are going to tick off four to five key dimensions of leadership that define them as a CEO, marketeers oftentimes are so busy serving businesses and brands, they have a harder time answering that question, which I find fascinating. They're scientists in brand, but they don't necessarily apply it to themselves. So I would encourage anybody who's in the seat or aspiring to become a CMO think about what matters most to you, how you package it and project it to get the things that you want professionally and maybe personally. It's just a tougher question for a marketeer, and I think they should all have that message.

[Mike Linton]

I think that's a great piece of practical advice. And beneath that is also, you can't just say I'm a change agent or I'm a visionary. You have to prove it. And, and so. And actually knowing you want to be that allows you to take maybe the assignments and the jobs that helps you see if you can really do what you want to be.

[Perry Hansen]

Having worked with and around great brands doesn't necessarily prove your worth as a cmo.

[Mike Linton]

It doesn't make you a great brand just because you worked at one. Yes.

[Perry Hansen]

So there's my advice, CMOs. Think about your brand, your own brand. Be selfish.

[Mike Linton]

Okay. I think that's a great way to end the show. Thank you Perry. And thanks to everyone for listening to CMO Confidential. If you are enjoying the show, please like share and subscribe. Look for all of our shows on Spotify, Apple and YouTube, which include the Omnicom IPG merger, what it means, and what's next. The top five mistakes CEOs and boards make when hiring a CMO. Putting the chief in CMO being good at marketing isn't enough. And of course, Perry's first show, the CMO as connective tissue. Hey, all you marketers, stay safe out there. This is Mike Linton signing off for CMO Confidential.